PDA

View Full Version : Udeze update



umaguma1979
01-12-2009, 06:39 PM
Anyone have an update regarding the health of Udeze?
It seems he is a forgotten Man.

hav0x
01-12-2009, 08:28 PM
Last I heard it was in remission and he was trying to get back into football shape.

Vikes_King
01-12-2009, 08:28 PM
the only thing i've heard recently is that he's recovering well and just spending time with his family, and still hopes to be playing next season.
I was in talks with his cousin, but haven't heard anything as of late

marstc09
01-12-2009, 09:41 PM
"I'll be back next year," Udeze said. "Everything is going to be fine for next year."

http://www.sportsnipe.com/main_sportsnews/4575023/kenechi-udeze-update.html

VikingsTw
01-12-2009, 09:45 PM
Wow you know I really hope Udeze can really come back and be an impact. I know there has been some guys in the past that have come back after a situation like that and had good seasons. In the Bronco game Udeze was straight beast, he was really starting to come on. He's definitly monster in the run game and gets some decent Pass Rush. Ray Edwards best watch out, We're stacked at DE.

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 08:09 AM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


Wow you know I really hope Udeze can really come back and be an impact. I know there has been some guys in the past that have come back after a situation like that and had good seasons. In the Bronco game Udeze was straight beast, he was really starting to come on. He's definitly monster in the run game and gets some decent Pass Rush. Ray Edwards best watch out, We're stacked at DE.

I think Ray and Rob are set.
Wave guys that will really have a impact next year after we get Keneche back and he eats up all the base 4-3 reps against the run.

Guys who need to worry about thier job are Otis and Jayme.
One of those will go to make room for Keneche or a draftee if they go after a LDE in this years draft like I wanted them to do last year.

V-Unit
01-13-2009, 08:35 AM
I think a full strength Udeze is still a backup to Ray.

Either way, the rotation of Jared, Ray, Brian, and Kenechi will be awesome.

Drafting DE would be a total waste of a pick. Our guys are both young and good.

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 08:40 AM
"V" wrote:


I think a full strength Udeze is still a backup to Ray.

Either way, the rotation of Jared, Ray, Brian, and Kenechi will be awesome.

Drafting DE would be a total waste of a pick. Our guys are both young and good.

What?
You contend that Ray stands up against the run in our base 4-3 than Ray?
Only way anyone would ever say that is if they believed that the "Sack" stat was more important than holding/sealing the left end against the run in the base defense.

What the hell have you done with Vunit? ???

PurpleTide
01-13-2009, 08:44 AM
Get strong Keneche, you will be a difference maker next season. With Udeze coming back we will have a much improved rotation with Ray, and Brian on passing downs.

V-Unit
01-13-2009, 08:51 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:


I think a full strength Udeze is still a backup to Ray.

Either way, the rotation of Jared, Ray, Brian, and Kenechi will be awesome.

Drafting DE would be a total waste of a pick. Our guys are both young and good.

What?
You contend that Ray stands up against the run in our base 4-3 than Ray?
Only way anyone would ever say that is if they believed that the "Sack" stat was more important than holding/sealing the left end against the run in the base defense.

What the hell have you done with Vunit? ???


Nothing. I never bought into your whole " LDEs are supposed to stop the run first" bullshit argument in the first place. Even so, Ray has played just as well as Udeze did, and has gotten much more pressure on the QB. That may be a product of playing accross from Allen, but I can't knock Ray for that.

When has Ray faltered at holding/sealing the left end against the run? Our run D was just as good without Udeze. If anything, Ray is more dynamic in his ability to play all four downs, just as Jared is. If you want to spell him on run downs by putting Kenechi in there, I can understand that, but Ray should get the majority of the snaps.

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 09:10 AM
"V" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:


I think a full strength Udeze is still a backup to Ray.

Either way, the rotation of Jared, Ray, Brian, and Kenechi will be awesome.

Drafting DE would be a total waste of a pick. Our guys are both young and good.

What?
You contend that Ray stands up against the run in our base 4-3 than Ray?
Only way anyone would ever say that is if they believed that the "Sack" stat was more important than holding/sealing the left end against the run in the base defense.

What the hell have you done with Vunit? ???


Nothing. I never bought into your whole " LDEs are supposed to stop the run first" kaka del rio argument in the first place. Even so, Ray has played just as well as Udeze did, and has gotten much more pressure on the QB. That may be a product of playing accross from Allen, but I can't knock Ray for that.

When has Ray faltered at holding/sealing the left end against the run? Our run D was just as good without Udeze. If anything, Ray is more dynamic in his ability to play all four downs, just as Jared is. If you want to spell him on run downs by putting Kenechi in there, I can understand that, but Ray should get the majority of the snaps.

He has done admirably over there, however, even though you don't buy into it, we saw it in action.
Taking a guy and beefing him up will make him less reliable health wise.

Ray played almost the whole season (when he got onto the field) hurt.

Again, agree or not, the two defensive ends roles in the defenses base scheme are different.

SKOL
01-13-2009, 09:20 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


Wow you know I really hope Udeze can really come back and be an impact. I know there has been some guys in the past that have come back after a situation like that and had good seasons. In the Bronco game Udeze was straight beast, he was really starting to come on. He's definitly monster in the run game and gets some decent Pass Rush. Ray Edwards best watch out, We're stacked at DE.

I think Ray and Rob are set.
Wave guys that will really have a impact next year after we get Keneche back and he eats up all the base 4-3 reps against the run.



Granted Udeze's sack numbers aren't there, but he also led the team in QB hurries a number of years.
If he makes a complete comeback I'd be very comfortable with our DL.
He would have done a lot to help us beat the Eagles too, keeping McNabb from rolling right... and the screen that killed us was on his side.

I'm looking forward to his return.

bleedpurple
01-13-2009, 11:09 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:


I think a full strength Udeze is still a backup to Ray.

Either way, the rotation of Jared, Ray, Brian, and Kenechi will be awesome.

Drafting DE would be a total waste of a pick. Our guys are both young and good.

What?
You contend that Ray stands up against the run in our base 4-3 than Ray?
Only way anyone would ever say that is if they believed that the "Sack" stat was more important than holding/sealing the left end against the run in the base defense.

What the hell have you done with Vunit? ???


Nothing. I never bought into your whole " LDEs are supposed to stop the run first" kaka del rio argument in the first place. Even so, Ray has played just as well as Udeze did, and has gotten much more pressure on the QB. That may be a product of playing accross from Allen, but I can't knock Ray for that.

When has Ray faltered at holding/sealing the left end against the run? Our run D was just as good without Udeze. If anything, Ray is more dynamic in his ability to play all four downs, just as Jared is. If you want to spell him on run downs by putting Kenechi in there, I can understand that, but Ray should get the majority of the snaps.

He has done admirably over there, however, even though you don't buy into it, we saw it in action.
Taking a guy and beefing him up will make him less reliable health wise.

Ray played almost the whole season (when he got onto the field) hurt.

Again, agree or not, the two defensive ends roles in the defenses base scheme are different.


I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that bullshit idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.

C Mac D
01-13-2009, 11:21 AM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that bullshit idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 11:23 AM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:


I think a full strength Udeze is still a backup to Ray.

Either way, the rotation of Jared, Ray, Brian, and Kenechi will be awesome.

Drafting DE would be a total waste of a pick. Our guys are both young and good.

What?
You contend that Ray stands up against the run in our base 4-3 than Ray?
Only way anyone would ever say that is if they believed that the "Sack" stat was more important than holding/sealing the left end against the run in the base defense.

What the hell have you done with Vunit? ???


Nothing. I never bought into your whole " LDEs are supposed to stop the run first" kaka del rio argument in the first place. Even so, Ray has played just as well as Udeze did, and has gotten much more pressure on the QB. That may be a product of playing accross from Allen, but I can't knock Ray for that.

When has Ray faltered at holding/sealing the left end against the run? Our run D was just as good without Udeze. If anything, Ray is more dynamic in his ability to play all four downs, just as Jared is. If you want to spell him on run downs by putting Kenechi in there, I can understand that, but Ray should get the majority of the snaps.

He has done admirably over there, however, even though you don't buy into it, we saw it in action.
Taking a guy and beefing him up will make him less reliable health wise.

Ray played almost the whole season (when he got onto the field) hurt.

Again, agree or not, the two defensive ends roles in the defenses base scheme are different.


I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.

Seriously, did you watch what happened to our run stopping abilities when Ray went down and the smaller DE went it (Rob)?

They did what all teams to to defenses that have LDEs light in the ass, they put a big TE over there and ran the ball right at him.


Long story short, he didn't do well at all in the base defensive snaps.
Rob, love him to death, is nothing more than a "Wave guy" who will come in and be damn productive when teams are in obvious passing downs.
Ray is the same sort of character to a point.


Mark my words, as soon as Keneche comes back Ray will be dropping those pounds so that he can go back to doing what he does best and that isn't trying to be a LDE in the base defense my friend.

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 11:26 AM
"C" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Quantify that.....

As a sack artitist or a run stopper?

Gimme a break.
Ray stepped in and filled in as a LDE (of of position) much the same as we saw Keneche do a couple of years ago with the same results.

A bunch of yutz fans now equate that to how good they are, again, based on sacks.
Sometimes I wonder why fans only look at the "Sexy" stat to base thier opinions on a guy.

marshallvike
01-13-2009, 11:28 AM
don't know if it was posted before, but this was a nice story linked to the udeze article. about his brother and their relationship and the procedure.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=seifert_kevin&id=3467326

C Mac D
01-13-2009, 11:36 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Quantify that.....

As a sack artitist or a run stopper?

Gimme a break.
Ray stepped in and filled in as a LDE (of of position) much the same as we saw Keneche do a couple of years ago with the same results.

A bunch of yutz fans now equate that to how good they are, again, based on sacks.
Sometimes I wonder why fans only look at the "Sexy" stat to base thier opinions on a guy.


lol...

Say what you want, Robison is a much better DE. He saw SIGNIFCANTLY less playing time than Edwards and only had 2.5 sacks less than him.

Say what you want about his run blocking problems, the guy was a rookie last season and the coaching staff hasn't let him see the field too much... but that seems to be their M.O..

Bench the better players.

V-Unit
01-13-2009, 11:40 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Quantify that.....

As a sack artitist or a run stopper?

Gimme a break.
Ray stepped in and filled in as a LDE (of of position) much the same as we saw Keneche do a couple of years ago with the same results.

A bunch of yutz fans now equate that to how good they are, again, based on sacks.
Sometimes I wonder why fans only look at the "Sexy" stat to base thier opinions on a guy.


Your amount of bias here is pretty obvious Marr. You were an Udeze guy from the start and simply unwilling to admit that the DL didn't miss a beat without him and perhaps even got better. You say they gave us the same results, yet still favor Udeze....Ray has developed very well and is entering his prime, while Kenechi's developement was shaky at best and is coming back from a year off, even if he is 100%.

The obvious call is to keep Ray in as the starter and use Kenechi on obvious running downs/goaline situations, etc.

This is not just about sacks vs. run stops. The fact is Ray is better at getting after the QB and also is just as good when it come to stopping the run. Allen and Edwards were rarely spelled this year. The addition of Udeze gives us a "run DL" of Allen-KWill-PWill-Udeze and a "pass DL" of Allen-KWill-Edwards-Robison, with many combinations in between.

Of our 4 DEs though, Allen and Edwards are the most versatile, and therefore should see the most time.

bleedpurple
01-13-2009, 11:42 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:




I think a full strength Udeze is still a backup to Ray.

Either way, the rotation of Jared, Ray, Brian, and Kenechi will be awesome.

Drafting DE would be a total waste of a pick. Our guys are both young and good.

What?
You contend that Ray stands up against the run in our base 4-3 than Ray?
Only way anyone would ever say that is if they believed that the "Sack" stat was more important than holding/sealing the left end against the run in the base defense.

What the hell have you done with Vunit? ???


Nothing. I never bought into your whole " LDEs are supposed to stop the run first" kaka del rio argument in the first place. Even so, Ray has played just as well as Udeze did, and has gotten much more pressure on the QB. That may be a product of playing accross from Allen, but I can't knock Ray for that.

When has Ray faltered at holding/sealing the left end against the run? Our run D was just as good without Udeze. If anything, Ray is more dynamic in his ability to play all four downs, just as Jared is. If you want to spell him on run downs by putting Kenechi in there, I can understand that, but Ray should get the majority of the snaps.

He has done admirably over there, however, even though you don't buy into it, we saw it in action.
Taking a guy and beefing him up will make him less reliable health wise.

Ray played almost the whole season (when he got onto the field) hurt.

Again, agree or not, the two defensive ends roles in the defenses base scheme are different.


I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.

Seriously, did you watch what happened to our run stopping abilities when Ray went down and the smaller DE went it (Rob)?

They did what all teams to to defenses that have LDEs light in the jiggly butt, they put a big TE over there and ran the ball right at him.


Long story short, he didn't do well at all in the base defensive snaps.
Rob, love him to death, is nothing more than a "Wave guy" who will come in and be gol 'darnit productive when teams are in obvious passing downs.
Ray is the same sort of character to a point.


Mark my words, as soon as Keneche comes back Ray will be dropping those pounds so that he can go back to doing what he does best and that isn't trying to be a LDE in the base defense My Sexy Little Pixie.


Marr what the heck are you talking about.. as i recall Robison started and played just about every down... and westbrook had 38 yards rushing on 20 carries... they as a team had a total of 67 rush yards on 23 carries with a total of 2.9 yards per rush.. which is about on par with where we were at for the season...
I could see if they racked up the yards, but they didnt... AND WE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE PAT WILLIAMS...

your argument doens't HOLD WATER!!!.. sorry bro!!

bleedpurple
01-13-2009, 11:47 AM
"V" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Quantify that.....

As a sack artitist or a run stopper?

Gimme a break.
Ray stepped in and filled in as a LDE (of of position) much the same as we saw Keneche do a couple of years ago with the same results.

A bunch of yutz fans now equate that to how good they are, again, based on sacks.
Sometimes I wonder why fans only look at the "Sexy" stat to base thier opinions on a guy.


Your amount of bias here is pretty obvious Marr. You were an Udeze guy from the start and simply unwilling to admit that the DL didn't miss a beat without him and perhaps even got better. You say they gave us the same results, yet still favor Udeze....Ray has developed very well and is entering his prime, while Kenechi's developement was shaky at best and is coming back from a year off, even if he is 100%.

The obvious call is to keep Ray in as the starter and use Kenechi on obvious running downs/goaline situations, etc.

This is not just about sacks vs. run stops. The fact is Ray is better at getting after the QB and also is just as good when it come to stopping the run. Allen and Edwards were rarely spelled this year. The addition of Udeze gives us a "run DL" of Allen-KWill-PWill-Udeze and a "pass DL" of Allen-KWill-Edwards-Robison, with many combinations in between.

Of our 4 DEs though, Allen and Edwards are the most versatile, and therefore should see the most time.


I agree with the size of the DE argument, however, Udeze should start if he's back to 100%... He is just a better DE than Edwards, in both run stuffing and getting to the QB...

With allen there, i see Udeze, if healthy, having about 6-9 sacks next year... without allen he was close so many times years before that..

and as to Edwards dropping lbs... i would like to see his official weight between the two years, bc i don't believe it..

and Marr you fail to realize is that Edwards missed atleast 4 games in 2007.. when he was at that lighter weight... so again, saying he was injured bc of gaining weight is ridiculous... and basically just flat out wrong!!!

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 11:48 AM
"C" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Quantify that.....

As a sack artitist or a run stopper?

Gimme a break.
Ray stepped in and filled in as a LDE (of of position) much the same as we saw Keneche do a couple of years ago with the same results.

A bunch of yutz fans now equate that to how good they are, again, based on sacks.
Sometimes I wonder why fans only look at the "Sexy" stat to base thier opinions on a guy.


lol...

Say what you want, Robison is a much better DE. He saw SIGNIFCANTLY less playing time than Edwards and only had 2.5 sacks less than him.
Say what you want about his run blocking problems, the guy was a rookie last season and the coaching staff hasn't let him see the field too much... but that seems to be their M.O..

Bench the better players.

There is the quantifier then isn't it.......Quick question, do you know under what circumstances he got those sacks.....Bet it wasn't first and 10.
Probably a 3rd and long..... :P

Again, one more time for possible penetration.
I take nothing away from Rob or Ray for that matter.
I am just saying that neither one is suited to play the LDE in our base 4-3 defense.

bleedpurple
01-13-2009, 11:51 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Quantify that.....

As a sack artitist or a run stopper?

Gimme a break.
Ray stepped in and filled in as a LDE (of of position) much the same as we saw Keneche do a couple of years ago with the same results.

A bunch of yutz fans now equate that to how good they are, again, based on sacks.
Sometimes I wonder why fans only look at the "Sexy" stat to base thier opinions on a guy.


lol...

Say what you want, Robison is a much better DE. He saw SIGNIFCANTLY less playing time than Edwards and only had 2.5 sacks less than him.
Say what you want about his run blocking problems, the guy was a rookie last season and the coaching staff hasn't let him see the field too much... but that seems to be their M.O..

Bench the better players.

There is the quantifier then isn't it.......Quick question, do you know under what circumstances he got those sacks.....Bet it wasn't first and 10.
Probably a 3rd and long..... :P

Again, one more time for possible penetration.
I take nothing away from Rob or Ray for that matter.
I am just saying that neither one is suited to play the LDE in our base 4-3 defense.


what the hell are you talking about!!!.. they both did it and did it well this past year.... #1 again for the 3rd year in a row.... oh wait, my bad... we did allow 2.5 more yards per game this season, good for a whopping 40 more yards over the course of the season, so i guess, in a way you are right!!.. neither is suited to play LDE!...
::)

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 12:00 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


I agree with the size of the DE argument, however, Udeze should start if he's back to 100%... He is just a better DE than Edwards, in both run stuffing and getting to the QB...

With allen there, i see Udeze, if healthy, having about 6-9 sacks next year... without allen he was close so many times years before that..

and as to Edwards dropping lbs... i would like to see his official weight between the two years, bc i don't believe it..

and Marr you fail to realize is that Edwards missed atleast 4 games in 2007.. when he was at that lighter weight... so again, saying he was injured bc of gaining weight is ridiculous... and basically just flat out wrong!!!

He missed games......DUH.
Equates to a guy that is a "Wave Guy" and not a everydown guy.
Damn, why didn't I think of that....... :P

Mr. A posted a link in this thread that described how much weight he added (I think it was that link) but it doesn't work.
Regardless, we had several discussions on here about him adding 10-15lbs to get up to the desired weight to play LDE this year.

Of course, I was pretty much against it...... ;D

http://www.purplepride.org/forums/index.php?topic=45538.40

kevoncox
01-13-2009, 12:19 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


I agree with the size of the DE argument, however, Udeze should start if he's back to 100%... He is just a better DE than Edwards, in both run stuffing and getting to the QB...

With allen there, i see Udeze, if healthy, having about 6-9 sacks next year... without allen he was close so many times years before that..

and as to Edwards dropping lbs... i would like to see his official weight between the two years, bc i don't believe it..

and Marr you fail to realize is that Edwards missed atleast 4 games in 2007.. when he was at that lighter weight... so again, saying he was injured bc of gaining weight is ridiculous... and basically just flat out wrong!!!

He missed games......DUH.
Equates to a guy that is a "Wave Guy" and not a everydown guy.
gol 'darnit, why didn't I think of that....... :P

Mr. A posted a link in this thread that described how much weight he added (I think it was that link) but it doesn't work.
Regardless, we had several discussions on here about him adding 10-15lbs to get up to the desired weight to play LDE this year.

Of course, I was pretty much against it...... ;D

http://www.purplepride.org/forums/index.php?topic=45538.40


Marr, I agree that the trend in the Cover 2 is to have a bigger LDE than RDE.
I believe that you are correct in the belief that most the LDE faces double teams more than the RDE ( from TEs and RTs). I disagree that the LDE is responsible for runs less than the RDE. I just have never seen anything that says that. I think RDE are typically more likely to get a High sack count because they are comeing from the QB's blind side and typically face one on one blocking assignments(the oline's best blocker). Can you shed some light in where you got this info?

bleedpurple
01-13-2009, 12:29 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


I agree with the size of the DE argument, however, Udeze should start if he's back to 100%... He is just a better DE than Edwards, in both run stuffing and getting to the QB...

With allen there, i see Udeze, if healthy, having about 6-9 sacks next year... without allen he was close so many times years before that..

and as to Edwards dropping lbs... i would like to see his official weight between the two years, bc i don't believe it..

and Marr you fail to realize is that Edwards missed atleast 4 games in 2007.. when he was at that lighter weight... so again, saying he was injured bc of gaining weight is ridiculous... and basically just flat out wrong!!!

He missed games......DUH.
Equates to a guy that is a "Wave Guy" and not a everydown guy.
gol 'darnit, why didn't I think of that....... :P

Mr. A posted a link in this thread that described how much weight he added (I think it was that link) but it doesn't work.
Regardless, we had several discussions on here about him adding 10-15lbs to get up to the desired weight to play LDE this year.

Of course, I was pretty much against it...... ;D

http://www.purplepride.org/forums/index.php?topic=45538.40


whether that's the prototypical thing or not.... ray ray and Robison did just fine on that side in Udeze's absense... and i think we're set at DE....

I know what your prototypical wish is... but the fact of the matter, is, it can and has been held down by smaller type players... as it was this year..

and edwards missed more games at the smaller weight than he did this year at the larger weight.. so in essence, all things being equal, the added weight helped him... along with regards, that players just coming into the league typically get bigger and heavier anyway, just by their bodies actually developing from young man to grown man, the weight regimine, and just getting older...

so, we agree to disagree!!...
;D

CTVikingfan
01-13-2009, 12:38 PM
I just wish Udeze gods speed in recovery and returning

nephilimstorm
01-13-2009, 12:39 PM
I hope he returns also...what a great one at USC :)

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 02:10 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:




I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Quantify that.....

As a sack artitist or a run stopper?

Gimme a break.
Ray stepped in and filled in as a LDE (of of position) much the same as we saw Keneche do a couple of years ago with the same results.

A bunch of yutz fans now equate that to how good they are, again, based on sacks.
Sometimes I wonder why fans only look at the "Sexy" stat to base thier opinions on a guy.


lol...

Say what you want, Robison is a much better DE. He saw SIGNIFCANTLY less playing time than Edwards and only had 2.5 sacks less than him.
Say what you want about his run blocking problems, the guy was a rookie last season and the coaching staff hasn't let him see the field too much... but that seems to be their M.O..

Bench the better players.

There is the quantifier then isn't it.......Quick question, do you know under what circumstances he got those sacks.....Bet it wasn't first and 10.
Probably a 3rd and long..... :P

Again, one more time for possible penetration.
I take nothing away from Rob or Ray for that matter.
I am just saying that neither one is suited to play the LDE in our base 4-3 defense.


what the hell are you talking about!!!.. they both did it and did it well this past year.... #1 again for the 3rd year in a row.... oh wait, my bad... we did allow 2.5 more yards per game this season, good for a whopping 40 more yards over the course of the season, so i guess, in a way you are right!!.. neither is suited to play LDE!...
::)

Can you imagine what thier/our sack totals would have been if both Rob and Ray were allowed to come in on passing downs with fresh legs instead of getting beat up in the base defense stopping the run?

For the life of me I just don't see why you guys can't get ahold of this concept that is a staple of the 4-3 defensive scheme we run.
Do I need to go out and repost all the stuff I've posted that amplifies the difference in the positions again?
:o

C Mac D
01-13-2009, 02:12 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Quantify that.....

As a sack artitist or a run stopper?

Gimme a break.
Ray stepped in and filled in as a LDE (of of position) much the same as we saw Keneche do a couple of years ago with the same results.

A bunch of yutz fans now equate that to how good they are, again, based on sacks.
Sometimes I wonder why fans only look at the "Sexy" stat to base thier opinions on a guy.


lol...

Say what you want, Robison is a much better DE. He saw SIGNIFCANTLY less playing time than Edwards and only had 2.5 sacks less than him.
Say what you want about his run blocking problems, the guy was a rookie last season and the coaching staff hasn't let him see the field too much... but that seems to be their M.O..

Bench the better players.

There is the quantifier then isn't it.......Quick question, do you know under what circumstances he got those sacks.....Bet it wasn't first and 10.
Probably a 3rd and long..... :P

Again, one more time for possible penetration.
I take nothing away from Rob or Ray for that matter.
I am just saying that neither one is suited to play the LDE in our base 4-3 defense.


So... you're arguing with a "Probably"?

You're "probably" wrong.

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 02:15 PM
"C" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:




I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Quantify that.....

As a sack artitist or a run stopper?

Gimme a break.
Ray stepped in and filled in as a LDE (of of position) much the same as we saw Keneche do a couple of years ago with the same results.

A bunch of yutz fans now equate that to how good they are, again, based on sacks.
Sometimes I wonder why fans only look at the "Sexy" stat to base thier opinions on a guy.


lol...

Say what you want, Robison is a much better DE. He saw SIGNIFCANTLY less playing time than Edwards and only had 2.5 sacks less than him.
Say what you want about his run blocking problems, the guy was a rookie last season and the coaching staff hasn't let him see the field too much... but that seems to be their M.O..

Bench the better players.

There is the quantifier then isn't it.......Quick question, do you know under what circumstances he got those sacks.....Bet it wasn't first and 10.
Probably a 3rd and long..... :P

Again, one more time for possible penetration.
I take nothing away from Rob or Ray for that matter.
I am just saying that neither one is suited to play the LDE in our base 4-3 defense.


So... you're arguing with a "Probably"?

You're "probably" wrong.


Says who, you?......

Impress me with your acumen on the DL positions with a focus on thier roles in this scheme.
::)

bleedpurple
01-13-2009, 02:20 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:






I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Quantify that.....

As a sack artitist or a run stopper?

Gimme a break.
Ray stepped in and filled in as a LDE (of of position) much the same as we saw Keneche do a couple of years ago with the same results.

A bunch of yutz fans now equate that to how good they are, again, based on sacks.
Sometimes I wonder why fans only look at the "Sexy" stat to base thier opinions on a guy.


lol...

Say what you want, Robison is a much better DE. He saw SIGNIFCANTLY less playing time than Edwards and only had 2.5 sacks less than him.
Say what you want about his run blocking problems, the guy was a rookie last season and the coaching staff hasn't let him see the field too much... but that seems to be their M.O..

Bench the better players.

There is the quantifier then isn't it.......Quick question, do you know under what circumstances he got those sacks.....Bet it wasn't first and 10.
Probably a 3rd and long..... :P

Again, one more time for possible penetration.
I take nothing away from Rob or Ray for that matter.
I am just saying that neither one is suited to play the LDE in our base 4-3 defense.


what the hell are you talking about!!!.. they both did it and did it well this past year.... #1 again for the 3rd year in a row.... oh wait, my bad... we did allow 2.5 more yards per game this season, good for a whopping 40 more yards over the course of the season, so i guess, in a way you are right!!.. neither is suited to play LDE!...
::)

Can you imagine what thier/our sack totals would have been if both Rob and Ray were allowed to come in on passing downs with fresh legs instead of getting beat up in the base defense stopping the run?

For the life of me I just don't see why you guys can't get ahold of this concept that is a staple of the 4-3 defensive scheme we run.
Do I need to go out and repost all the stuff I've posted that amplifies the difference in the positions again?

:o


NO i just don't agree.... didn't agree then, don't agree now!!!
:o

besides, who's to say Udeze wouldn't be in on passing downs....

and remember you posted easier today how you wanted us to draft yet another DE...
::)

you still my dogg though!!!

V4L
01-13-2009, 02:21 PM
There are plenty of lighter LDE's that are great fits in the 4-3

Peppers was one til this year and he is a premier DE

I could name a few more names but I dont think weight matters what side you line up on

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 02:24 PM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


I agree with the size of the DE argument, however, Udeze should start if he's back to 100%... He is just a better DE than Edwards, in both run stuffing and getting to the QB...

With allen there, i see Udeze, if healthy, having about 6-9 sacks next year... without allen he was close so many times years before that..

and as to Edwards dropping lbs... i would like to see his official weight between the two years, bc i don't believe it..

and Marr you fail to realize is that Edwards missed atleast 4 games in 2007.. when he was at that lighter weight... so again, saying he was injured bc of gaining weight is ridiculous... and basically just flat out wrong!!!

He missed games......DUH.
Equates to a guy that is a "Wave Guy" and not a everydown guy.
gol 'darnit, why didn't I think of that....... :P

Mr. A posted a link in this thread that described how much weight he added (I think it was that link) but it doesn't work.
Regardless, we had several discussions on here about him adding 10-15lbs to get up to the desired weight to play LDE this year.

Of course, I was pretty much against it...... ;D

http://www.purplepride.org/forums/index.php?topic=45538.40


Marr, I agree that the trend in the Cover 2 is to have a bigger LDE than RDE.
I believe that you are correct in the belief that most the LDE faces double teams more than the RDE ( from TEs and RTs). I disagree that the LDE is responsible for runs less than the RDE. I just have never seen anything that says that. I think RDE are typically more likely to get a High sack count because they are comeing from the QB's blind side and typically face one on one blocking assignments(the oline's best blocker). Can you shed some light in where you got this info?

I have never said that he wasn't responsible for the getting pressure.
I do contend, based on alot of stuff I've read (and posted on here) that gives the primary, secondary and tertiary responsibilities of both ends in our scheme which are:

a.
RDE
Pri-Sack/Pressure the QB, Sec-Stop the Run, Tertiary-Seal the end when the play is to the other side and pursue if the situation dictates

b. LDE Pri-Stop the run, SecSeal the end when the play is to the other side and pursue if situation dictates, Ter- Sacck/Pressure the QB.

Again, that is based on the base 4-3 were the predominace of the plays (1rst and 10, 2nd and short, 3rd and short) will be running plays.
If the situation dictates (1rst and Long 15+ yards, 2nd and Long 15+ yards, 3rd and long 5+ yards) a guy like Ray or Rob with fresh legs would/could come in and give the offense fits cause it would cause them to either stay with a bigger TE (ala Klieny) who doesn't get into pass routes much or force them to commit a RB to help protect, thereby taking one of the recievers out of the equation.

As to something to read.
Let me go dig up an old thread I made on this that lists lots of links (I think I even gave some book titles to read) on it.

V-Unit
01-13-2009, 02:26 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:



Can you imagine what thier/our sack totals would have been if both Rob and Ray were allowed to come in on passing downs with fresh legs instead of getting beat up in the base defense stopping the run?

For the life of me I just don't see why you guys can't get ahold of this concept that is a staple of the 4-3 defensive scheme we run.
Do I need to go out and repost all the stuff I've posted that amplifies the difference in the positions again?

:o


That would mean spelling Ray by putting Udeze in on some obvious run downs, wouldn't it?

As for our "base 4-3" I'm not sure you have a full concept of it either. The best pass rusher is always lined up at RDE and the great ones can be moved around to cause pressure. All year long we decided to have Ray and Allen play all four downs rather than using a rotation at DE, and it worked very well. You continue to suggest that Ray is a pass rush specialist, but the fact he is much more versatile than that. Robison is a different story, but when it comes to Udeze or Ray, I prefer Ray.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 02:29 PM
"V4L" wrote:


There are plenty of lighter LDE's that are great fits in the 4-3

Peppers was one til this year and he is a premier DE

I could name a few more names but I dont think weight matters what side you line up on


Were did he play this year?
LDE or RDE?
Very interesting read out there someone had that explained why the staff moved him........Tracks along the lines of what I am talking about.


I think I posted that link in the "Crow Eating Thread" I made on Peppers a few weeks back.

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 02:31 PM
"V" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:



Can you imagine what thier/our sack totals would have been if both Rob and Ray were allowed to come in on passing downs with fresh legs instead of getting beat up in the base defense stopping the run?

For the life of me I just don't see why you guys can't get ahold of this concept that is a staple of the 4-3 defensive scheme we run.
Do I need to go out and repost all the stuff I've posted that amplifies the difference in the positions again?

:o


That would mean spelling Ray by putting Udeze in on some obvious run downs, wouldn't it?

As for our "base 4-3" I'm not sure you have a full concept of it either. The best pass rusher is always lined up at RDE and the great ones can be moved around to cause pressure. All year long we decided to have Ray and Allen play all four downs rather than using a rotation at DE, and it worked very well. You continue to suggest that Ray is a pass rush specialist, but the fact he is much more versatile than that. Robison is a different story, but when it comes to Udeze or Ray, I prefer Ray.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.



I contend nothing of the sort and just goes to prove that you have no idea of what I am talking about nor if I understand the scheme or not.....

Problem is, it is broke and you just can't see it, probably because K-will got a few more "Sacks".
Brother..... ::)

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 02:35 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"C" wrote:








I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Quantify that.....

As a sack artitist or a run stopper?

Gimme a break.
Ray stepped in and filled in as a LDE (of of position) much the same as we saw Keneche do a couple of years ago with the same results.

A bunch of yutz fans now equate that to how good they are, again, based on sacks.
Sometimes I wonder why fans only look at the "Sexy" stat to base thier opinions on a guy.


lol...

Say what you want, Robison is a much better DE. He saw SIGNIFCANTLY less playing time than Edwards and only had 2.5 sacks less than him.
Say what you want about his run blocking problems, the guy was a rookie last season and the coaching staff hasn't let him see the field too much... but that seems to be their M.O..

Bench the better players.

There is the quantifier then isn't it.......Quick question, do you know under what circumstances he got those sacks.....Bet it wasn't first and 10.
Probably a 3rd and long..... :P

Again, one more time for possible penetration.
I take nothing away from Rob or Ray for that matter.
I am just saying that neither one is suited to play the LDE in our base 4-3 defense.


what the hell are you talking about!!!.. they both did it and did it well this past year.... #1 again for the 3rd year in a row.... oh wait, my bad... we did allow 2.5 more yards per game this season, good for a whopping 40 more yards over the course of the season, so i guess, in a way you are right!!.. neither is suited to play LDE!...
::)

Can you imagine what thier/our sack totals would have been if both Rob and Ray were allowed to come in on passing downs with fresh legs instead of getting beat up in the base defense stopping the run?

For the life of me I just don't see why you guys can't get ahold of this concept that is a staple of the 4-3 defensive scheme we run.
Do I need to go out and repost all the stuff I've posted that amplifies the difference in the positions again?

:o


NO i just don't agree.... didn't agree then, don't agree now!!!
:o

besides, who's to say Udeze wouldn't be in on passing downs....

and remember you posted easier today how you wanted us to draft yet another DE...
::)

you still my dogg though!!!

He could be in on passing downs, but lets not forget.
Keneche is a bigger, slower man best suited to play LDE.
That was never more evident than when he had to fill in at RDE a few years back.

The "Keneche sucks cause he isn't getting sacks" crowd was out in full force that year my friend.

And I do want us to draft another LDE.
We aren't sure about Keneche.
Mitchell is a question.
Otis, even though I love the big guy is expendable as we have a plethora of RDE's on this roster.
His roster spot could be used for a young kid 6"6" 280/290ish to come in and help out on that side.

VikingsTw
01-13-2009, 02:40 PM
I would definitly contend that Udeze plays the run better than Robison or Edwards. Not to take anything away from those guys they do a good job but Udeze is a straight trunk. Brian Robison might have the best pass rush but Edwards isn't bad himself. We got alot of good DE's which is a good problem to have.

V-Unit
01-13-2009, 02:47 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:



Can you imagine what thier/our sack totals would have been if both Rob and Ray were allowed to come in on passing downs with fresh legs instead of getting beat up in the base defense stopping the run?

For the life of me I just don't see why you guys can't get ahold of this concept that is a staple of the 4-3 defensive scheme we run.
Do I need to go out and repost all the stuff I've posted that amplifies the difference in the positions again?

:o


That would mean spelling Ray by putting Udeze in on some obvious run downs, wouldn't it?

As for our "base 4-3" I'm not sure you have a full concept of it either. The best pass rusher is always lined up at RDE and the great ones can be moved around to cause pressure. All year long we decided to have Ray and Allen play all four downs rather than using a rotation at DE, and it worked very well. You continue to suggest that Ray is a pass rush specialist, but the fact he is much more versatile than that. Robison is a different story, but when it comes to Udeze or Ray, I prefer Ray.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.



I contend nothing of the sort and just goes to prove that you have no idea of what I am talking about nor if I understand the scheme or not.....

Problem is, it is broke and you just can't see it, probably because K-will got a few more "Sacks".
Brother..... ::)


Broke based on what? The fact that our DE needs to weigh 10 more pounds to be considered a protypical LDE in Marrdro's dream defense? LMAO.

Nothing is broken with our DL, especially when healthy. If anything, we are choosing between the greater of two great situations. We have two guys who can start every down and one who can be a great pass rusher if rested well, and oh by the way, those 3 guys play next to two perennial probowlers and a double-digit sack artist. Broken? Our run defense was just as good this year as it was with Udeze. You choose to ignore that because Edwads doesn't weigh enough!

Certainly, when comparing Udeze's performance to Ray's, you have almost nothing to stand on. Even if we say they played about the same, Ray is getting better each year, and entering the prime of his career, while Udeze has been out for a year and still is ? on if he will be 100%. Start Ray and let Udeze grow back into the role, and take things from there.

If I can't see it, then I am looking in the wrong place, because I watched all 17 games this year and I didn't miss Udeze for a single second of the 1,020 minutes played. It has nothing to do with sacks, and you know that. Edwards has done everything that Udeze has, minus the serious inury and minus the bout with leukemia. I certainly hope Udeze comes back full strength and can contribute, but Ray's job is his to lose.

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 02:57 PM
I can't find that damn thread I did on this however, I will look when I get home.
Anyway, a quick google search gave me these two articles that kindof show what I am say.


Traditionally, the left defensive end is the stouter, less pass rush-oriented compliment to the explosive right defensive end. Despite that, left defensive ends like Patrick Kerney, Julius Peppers, Jared Allen and Aaron Kampman are consistently among the top sack producers in the NFL. Some of that might be a simple, meaningless confluence of talent at the right defensive end position, not indicative of any larger trend. But some it might also be explained by the changing nature of the tight end position in the modern NFL.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2008/6/7/547806/football-explained-left-de


Since most QBs are right handed, the right defensive end is the pass rushing and most athletic player on the defensive line. The RDE is required to bring the heat from the outside and occasionally can drop back in coverage. Naturally, if the quarterback is a lefty, then the RDE would obviously flip to the left side. The left defensive end (LDE) is mostly responsible for keeping contain and being mostly stout against the run. Some LDEs are special enough to be talented pass rushers as well (i.e. New York Giants DE Michael Strahan). The LDE must be strong at the point of attack because usually the tight end lines up to his side and the right tackle is also usually the strongest and biggest of the two OTs.

http://www.footballgameplan.com/building-a-defense

Seriously, I just find it amazing that some of you just can't grasp the concept that there is a difference along with the fact that sacks aren't the only thing DE's do........

Simply amazing......
;D
;D
;D
;D

bleedpurple
01-13-2009, 02:57 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:










I'm with V on this one... i don't buy into that kaka del rio idea of LDE's need to be a certain size... HELL, even Robison did a decent job in subbing for Edwards when he was hurt....

I do think Udeze is better than Edwards if he can get back to tip top shape, but regardless, we're set at DE and LDE... Not that it matters, and drafting a DE would be a waste of a pick... unless we draft someone that can play DT and DE... i think DT is a bigger priority than DE by far...

DE is probably one of the only positions on the team we don't need to address honestly!!!.


"Hell, even Robison...."?


FYI... Robison is better than Edwards.

Quantify that.....

As a sack artitist or a run stopper?

Gimme a break.
Ray stepped in and filled in as a LDE (of of position) much the same as we saw Keneche do a couple of years ago with the same results.

A bunch of yutz fans now equate that to how good they are, again, based on sacks.
Sometimes I wonder why fans only look at the "Sexy" stat to base thier opinions on a guy.


lol...

Say what you want, Robison is a much better DE. He saw SIGNIFCANTLY less playing time than Edwards and only had 2.5 sacks less than him.
Say what you want about his run blocking problems, the guy was a rookie last season and the coaching staff hasn't let him see the field too much... but that seems to be their M.O..

Bench the better players.

There is the quantifier then isn't it.......Quick question, do you know under what circumstances he got those sacks.....Bet it wasn't first and 10.
Probably a 3rd and long..... :P

Again, one more time for possible penetration.
I take nothing away from Rob or Ray for that matter.
I am just saying that neither one is suited to play the LDE in our base 4-3 defense.


what the hell are you talking about!!!.. they both did it and did it well this past year.... #1 again for the 3rd year in a row.... oh wait, my bad... we did allow 2.5 more yards per game this season, good for a whopping 40 more yards over the course of the season, so i guess, in a way you are right!!.. neither is suited to play LDE!...
::)

Can you imagine what thier/our sack totals would have been if both Rob and Ray were allowed to come in on passing downs with fresh legs instead of getting beat up in the base defense stopping the run?

For the life of me I just don't see why you guys can't get ahold of this concept that is a staple of the 4-3 defensive scheme we run.
Do I need to go out and repost all the stuff I've posted that amplifies the difference in the positions again?

:o


NO i just don't agree.... didn't agree then, don't agree now!!!
:o

besides, who's to say Udeze wouldn't be in on passing downs....

and remember you posted easier today how you wanted us to draft yet another DE...
::)

you still my dogg though!!!

He could be in on passing downs, but lets not forget.
Keneche is a bigger, slower man best suited to play LDE.
That was never more evident than when he had to fill in at RDE a few years back.

The "Keneche sucks cause he isn't getting sacks" crowd was out in full force that year My Sexy Little Pixie.

And I do want us to draft another LDE.
We aren't sure about Keneche.
Mitchell is a question.
Otis, even though I love the big guy is expendable as we have a plethora of RDE's on this roster.
His roster spot could be used for a young kid 6"6" 280/290ish to come in and help out on that side.


Udeze bigger and slower??.. c'mon Marr.. our entire D-line was garbage that year... and do you forget that Udeze coming out of college was a pass rush specialist, not a run stuffer?..

c'mon... he's more than capable of being that LDE.. and so is ray ray...

I'm all for drafting the BPA, but if we are going to draft one, then either he needs to be a 1st round talent that slipped to a lower round, or we've addressed every other need on this team, including

QB, OL, WR, CB, C?, LB, KR/PR and S, before we even think about a DE LDE or otherwise...

SamOchoCinco
01-13-2009, 02:58 PM
he is good! get him on the field!

mountainviking
01-13-2009, 03:01 PM
None of this is a problem for me.
Maybe, depending on how fit/heavy Udeze comes back, he can even play some DT on passing downs...?
All in all, I bet we find ways to get them all on the field "in rotation."
Keep them all fresh and hungry for QBs!!!
;D

Cheers Udeze!!
Come back strong!!!

V4L
01-13-2009, 03:03 PM
Hopefully Udeze has been able to keep in shape

I liked him alot and cant wait for him to come back

In his "down year" I was on him.. I didn't take into account he switched ends and is a great run stopper.. I was one of those guys saying he didn't produce sacks so he is a bust

But im glad he is here and understand his role better.. Can't wait to see him on the field again

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 03:13 PM
"mountainviking" wrote:


None of this is a problem for me.
Maybe, depending on how fit/heavy Udeze comes back, he can even play some DT on passing downs...?
All in all, I bet we find ways to get them all on the field "in rotation."
Keep them all fresh and hungry for QBs!!!

;D

Cheers Udeze!!
Come back strong!!!

He did take reps at DT much the same as we have seen Rob do.
I would love to see a lineup like this on 3rd and forevers....

JA Keneche
Rob
Ray

Or

Rob Kwill Keneche Ray

or
Ray Phat Pat Rob JA

etc etc etc.

The flexibility of him being back to take the predominace of the snaps in our base D just gives our D-cord alot of options with respect to rotations based on down/distance, reps players have taken etc in this scheme were you just keep rolling waves of guys out there with fresh legs to get/keep the OL confused and off kilter.

To date we have never seen that in effect.
A healthy Keneche and this line would/will be really fun to watch.

bleedpurple
01-13-2009, 03:16 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"mountainviking" wrote:


None of this is a problem for me.
Maybe, depending on how fit/heavy Udeze comes back, he can even play some DT on passing downs...?
All in all, I bet we find ways to get them all on the field "in rotation."
Keep them all fresh and hungry for QBs!!!

;D

Cheers Udeze!!
Come back strong!!!

He did take reps at DT much the same as we have seen Rob do.
I would love to see a lineup like this on 3rd and forevers....

JA Keneche
Rob
Ray

Or

Rob Kwill Keneche Ray

or
Ray Phat Pat Rob JA

etc etc etc.

The flexibility of him being back to take the predominace of the snaps in our base D just gives our D-cord alot of options with respect to rotations based on down/distance, reps players have taken etc in this scheme were you just keep rolling waves of guys out there with fresh legs to get/keep the OL confused and off kilter.

To date we have never seen that in effect.
A healthy Keneche and this line would/will be really fun to watch.




along with say.... another LDE at rookie right??....
;D

Marrdro
01-13-2009, 03:18 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


Udeze bigger and slower??.. c'mon Marr.. our entire D-line was garbage that year... and do you forget that Udeze coming out of college was a pass rush specialist, not a run stuffer?..

c'mon... he's more than capable of being that LDE.. and so is ray ray...

I'm all for drafting the BPA, but if we are going to draft one, then either he needs to be a 1st round talent that slipped to a lower round, or we've addressed every other need on this team, including

QB, OL, WR, CB, C?, LB, KR/PR and S, before we even think about a DE LDE or otherwise...

Were did you get that Keneche was a Pass Rush Specialist?
I think he had something like 15 sacks or so coming out but no were did I read anything that aluded to the fact that he was a sack artist.


Infact most of the scouting reporst said stuff about how he would stand up to the run at the point of attack etc etc etc.

jargomcfargo
01-13-2009, 03:33 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


Udeze bigger and slower??.. c'mon Marr.. our entire D-line was garbage that year... and do you forget that Udeze coming out of college was a pass rush specialist, not a run stuffer?..

c'mon... he's more than capable of being that LDE.. and so is ray ray...

I'm all for drafting the BPA, but if we are going to draft one, then either he needs to be a 1st round talent that slipped to a lower round, or we've addressed every other need on this team, including

QB, OL, WR, CB, C?, LB, KR/PR and S, before we even think about a DE LDE or otherwise...

Were did you get that Keneche was a Pass Rush Specialist?
I think he had something like 15 sacks or so coming out but no were did I read anything that aluded to the fact that he was a sack artist.


Infact most of the scouting reporst said stuff about how he would stand up to the run at the point of attack etc etc etc.


Udeze held the USC sack record when he finished his college career. I think it was 28 sacks.

C Mac D
01-13-2009, 03:34 PM
"jargomcfargo" wrote:


Udeze held the USC sack record when he finished his college career. I think it was 28 sacks.


I think Tommy Chang held the Career TD record for awhile.

Where is he?

bleedpurple
01-13-2009, 03:34 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


Udeze bigger and slower??.. c'mon Marr.. our entire D-line was garbage that year... and do you forget that Udeze coming out of college was a pass rush specialist, not a run stuffer?..

c'mon... he's more than capable of being that LDE.. and so is ray ray...

I'm all for drafting the BPA, but if we are going to draft one, then either he needs to be a 1st round talent that slipped to a lower round, or we've addressed every other need on this team, including

QB, OL, WR, CB, C?, LB, KR/PR and S, before we even think about a DE LDE or otherwise...

Were did you get that Keneche was a Pass Rush Specialist?
I think he had something like 15 sacks or so coming out but no were did I read anything that aluded to the fact that he was a sack artist.


Infact most of the scouting reporst said stuff about how he would stand up to the run at the point of attack etc etc etc.


not a pass rush specialist..??
you mean the same kid who had 16.5 sacks his last year at USC??

and thought of as a speed rusher coming out of college

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2004-04-14-defensive-ends_x.htm

"Southern California's Kenechi Udeze, the top-rated end on some teams' draft boards, reportedly has 9% body fat on a 6-3, 281-pound frame. As a high school defensive tackle, he once weighed 382. To secure his college scholarship, Udeze needed to make good on a pledge to lose 30 pounds from the end of his final high school season and signing day. And he kept dropping pounds, transforming himself into a chiseled speed rusher. "When I lost the weight, not only did I gain a lot of self-confidence on the field when my athleticism started peaking, but as a human being I developed much more socially and became a different person," said Udeze, who posted 16½ sacks in 2003 and became USC's first All-America defensive lineman since Tim Ryan in 1989."

yep, your right, he could never be a pass rush specialist

BadlandsVikings
01-13-2009, 03:37 PM
"C" wrote:


"jargomcfargo" wrote:


Udeze held the USC sack record when he finished his college career. I think it was 28 sacks.


I think Tommy Chang held the Career TD record for awhile.

Where is he?


right here

http://www.tommychang.net/labels/Football.htm

C Mac D
01-13-2009, 03:44 PM
"BadlandsViking" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"jargomcfargo" wrote:


Udeze held the USC sack record when he finished his college career. I think it was 28 sacks.


I think Tommy Chang held the Career TD record for awhile.

Where is he?


right here

http://www.tommychang.net/labels/Football.htm


Ah, yes... I meant Timmy Chang.

How could I forget the prolific Timmy Chang.

BadlandsVikings
01-13-2009, 03:47 PM
"C" wrote:


"BadlandsViking" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"jargomcfargo" wrote:


Udeze held the USC sack record when he finished his college career. I think it was 28 sacks.


I think Tommy Chang held the Career TD record for awhile.

Where is he?


he's playing in canada

right here

http://www.tommychang.net/labels/Football.htm


Ah, yes... I meant Timmy Chang.

How could I forget the prolific Timmy Chang.

jessejames09
01-13-2009, 05:11 PM
Funny, Marrdro alludes to the fact that a slew of posters don't understand our base 4-3, then ignores the fact that in a true 'cover 2' both ends are supposed to be interchangeable.

In theory, yes a larger, stronger LDE would be nice. That theory just doesn't belong to the teams that run a cover 2.

And somewhere in here Marrdro you said you wanted a LDE that was 6'6"!?
Aren't these tall mofos usually moved to 3-4 OLBer for a reason? Leverage?

Purple Floyd
01-13-2009, 05:18 PM
"C" wrote:


"BadlandsViking" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"jargomcfargo" wrote:


Udeze held the USC sack record when he finished his college career. I think it was 28 sacks.


I think Tommy Chang held the Career TD record for awhile.

Where is he?


right here

http://www.tommychang.net/labels/Football.htm


Ah, yes... I meant Timmy Chang.

How could I forget the prolific Timmy Chang.


He is great. Glad he got back together with Cheech

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/denjahn/tommy_chong_ColumbiaTriStar.jpg

marstc09
01-13-2009, 05:21 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


Udeze bigger and slower??.. c'mon Marr.. our entire D-line was garbage that year... and do you forget that Udeze coming out of college was a pass rush specialist, not a run stuffer?..

c'mon... he's more than capable of being that LDE.. and so is ray ray...

I'm all for drafting the BPA, but if we are going to draft one, then either he needs to be a 1st round talent that slipped to a lower round, or we've addressed every other need on this team, including

QB, OL, WR, CB, C?, LB, KR/PR and S, before we even think about a DE LDE or otherwise...

Were did you get that Keneche was a Pass Rush Specialist?
I think he had something like 15 sacks or so coming out but no were did I read anything that aluded to the fact that he was a sack artist.


Infact most of the scouting reporst said stuff about how he would stand up to the run at the point of attack etc etc etc.


not a pass rush specialist..??
you mean the same kid who had 16.5 sacks his last year at USC??

and thought of as a speed rusher coming out of college

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2004-04-14-defensive-ends_x.htm

"Southern California's Kenechi Udeze, the top-rated end on some teams' draft boards, reportedly has 9% body fat on a 6-3, 281-pound frame. As a high school defensive tackle, he once weighed 382. To secure his college scholarship, Udeze needed to make good on a pledge to lose 30 pounds from the end of his final high school season and signing day. And he kept dropping pounds, transforming himself into a chiseled speed rusher. "When I lost the weight, not only did I gain a lot of self-confidence on the field when my athleticism started peaking, but as a human being I developed much more socially and became a different person," said Udeze, who posted 16½ sacks in 2003 and became USC's first All-America defensive lineman since Tim Ryan in 1989."

yep, your right, he could never be a pass rush specialist


Marrdro you just got......
http://usversusthem.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/owned.jpg

PackSux!
01-13-2009, 05:25 PM
When Udeze gets back next season he is going to do what Ray couldnt this year.

And that would be break the sack record.

I have a good feeling that Udeze is going to come back from his illness and be stronger then ever and i guarntee he is very determined to do that.

Beating an NFL offensive tackle is childs play compaired to what Udeze has beaten.

singersp
01-13-2009, 06:44 PM
It's kind of funny reading thru this thread & seeing people chomping at the bit, looking forward to next year for Udeze to get back on the field & boost our defense.

Hey Marr, remember 2 years ago when you, I & only a few more people were the only ones supporting him against the masses that wanted to cut/release him from this team because he didn't get a sack when he was playing out of position?

kevoncox
01-13-2009, 07:03 PM
"singersp" wrote:


It's kind of funny reading thru this thread & seeing people chomping at the bit, looking forward to next year for Udeze to get back on the field & boost our defense.

Hey Marr, remember 2 years ago when you, I & only a few more people were the only ones supporting him against the masses that wanted to cut/release him from this team because he didn't get a sack when he was playing out of position?


Glad I wasn't hear then! I wonder what this board was like the day we traded Moss? Still can't believe we did that and got Williamson and James for him. Yuck!!!!

singersp
01-13-2009, 10:27 PM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


It's kind of funny reading thru this thread & seeing people chomping at the bit, looking forward to next year for Udeze to get back on the field & boost our defense.

Hey Marr, remember 2 years ago when you, I & only a few more people were the only ones supporting him against the masses that wanted to cut/release him from this team because he didn't get a sack when he was playing out of position?


Glad I wasn't hear then! I wonder what this board was like the day we traded Moss? Still can't believe we did that and got Williamson and James for him. Yuck!!!!


LOL! You could have joined a year or so after the trade & not missed a thing.

V-Unit
01-13-2009, 11:18 PM
"singersp" wrote:


It's kind of funny reading thru this thread & seeing people chomping at the bit, looking forward to next year for Udeze to get back on the field & boost our defense.

Hey Marr, remember 2 years ago when you, I & only a few more people were the only ones supporting him against the masses that wanted to cut/release him from this team because he didn't get a sack when he was playing out of position?


If Udeze got cut right now, our D would not miss a heartbeat. Right now he's quality depth and nothing more.

i_bleed_purple
01-14-2009, 01:01 AM
"V" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


It's kind of funny reading thru this thread & seeing people chomping at the bit, looking forward to next year for Udeze to get back on the field & boost our defense.

Hey Marr, remember 2 years ago when you, I & only a few more people were the only ones supporting him against the masses that wanted to cut/release him from this team because he didn't get a sack when he was playing out of position?


If Udeze got cut right now, our D would not miss a heartbeat. Right now he's quality depth and nothing more.


depth for now, since he won't be in the shape he was in for some time now.
Once he gets back to playing weight and shape, i expect he'll take over the starting position again.
he's better than edwards IMO

V-Unit
01-14-2009, 07:16 AM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


It's kind of funny reading thru this thread & seeing people chomping at the bit, looking forward to next year for Udeze to get back on the field & boost our defense.

Hey Marr, remember 2 years ago when you, I & only a few more people were the only ones supporting him against the masses that wanted to cut/release him from this team because he didn't get a sack when he was playing out of position?


If Udeze got cut right now, our D would not miss a heartbeat. Right now he's quality depth and nothing more.


depth for now, since he won't be in the shape he was in for some time now.
Once he gets back to playing weight and shape, i expect he'll take over the starting position again.
he's better than edwards IMO

Agree to Disagree. This is something I will gladly eat crow on in the future, if wrong of course.

Purple Floyd
01-14-2009, 07:26 AM
Have there been any recent press releases on his recovery? I understand he is in remission, but what is his prognosis for returning this year? He has been through quite a bit.

Marrdro
01-14-2009, 09:48 AM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


Udeze bigger and slower??.. c'mon Marr.. our entire D-line was garbage that year... and do you forget that Udeze coming out of college was a pass rush specialist, not a run stuffer?..

c'mon... he's more than capable of being that LDE.. and so is ray ray...

I'm all for drafting the BPA, but if we are going to draft one, then either he needs to be a 1st round talent that slipped to a lower round, or we've addressed every other need on this team, including

QB, OL, WR, CB, C?, LB, KR/PR and S, before we even think about a DE LDE or otherwise...

Were did you get that Keneche was a Pass Rush Specialist?
I think he had something like 15 sacks or so coming out but no were did I read anything that aluded to the fact that he was a sack artist.


Infact most of the scouting reporst said stuff about how he would stand up to the run at the point of attack etc etc etc.


not a pass rush specialist..??
you mean the same kid who had 16.5 sacks his last year at USC??

and thought of as a speed rusher coming out of college

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2004-04-14-defensive-ends_x.htm

"Southern California's Kenechi Udeze, the top-rated end on some teams' draft boards, reportedly has 9% body fat on a 6-3, 281-pound frame. As a high school defensive tackle, he once weighed 382. To secure his college scholarship, Udeze needed to make good on a pledge to lose 30 pounds from the end of his final high school season and signing day. And he kept dropping pounds, transforming himself into a chiseled speed rusher. "When I lost the weight, not only did I gain a lot of self-confidence on the field when my athleticism started peaking, but as a human being I developed much more socially and became a different person," said Udeze, who posted 16½ sacks in 2003 and became USC's first All-America defensive lineman since Tim Ryan in 1989."

yep, your right, he could never be a pass rush specialist

So I was off 1.5 sacks.
Not a bad memory.
Seriously, I just didn't remember that he was touted as some sort of sack artist.

I find it interesting that the scouting report talks about dropping pounds to get faster....Hmmmmmmmm, kindof tracks with what some yutz is trying to tell you guys now doesn't it.

Marrdro
01-14-2009, 09:56 AM
"jessejames09" wrote:


Funny, Marrdro alludes to the fact that a slew of posters don't understand our base 4-3, then ignores the fact that in a true 'cover 2' both ends are supposed to be interchangeable.

In theory, yes a larger, stronger LDE would be nice. That theory just doesn't belong to the teams that run a cover 2.

And somewhere in here Marrdro you said you wanted a LDE that was 6'6"!?
Aren't these tall mofos usually moved to 3-4 OLBer for a reason? Leverage?

Well I don't think I used the word "Slew" but there are several on here who just can't seem to grasp the concept no matter how hard a "Slew" of us try.
;D

Quick question, why doesn't it track with a cover 2?
From everything I've read on the Cover 2, in the base defense it tracks 100%.
Now if you want to look at what happens in the rotation based on down and distance then I would agree.
Predominantly that guy comes out and a "Edge Rusher" comes in at the LDE and sometimes the DT positions.

A 6"6" 280/290ish gu wouldn't be a LB in a 3-4.
He would probably be a hand in the grass guy.

There is a better article out there on the net better than this one that gives standard hieghts/weights/40 times etc, I just can't remember its url. This one is good enough for this discussion though.

http://www.geocities.com/epark/raiders/football-101-3-4-defense.html

Marrdro
01-14-2009, 09:58 AM
"marstc09" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


Udeze bigger and slower??.. c'mon Marr.. our entire D-line was garbage that year... and do you forget that Udeze coming out of college was a pass rush specialist, not a run stuffer?..

c'mon... he's more than capable of being that LDE.. and so is ray ray...

I'm all for drafting the BPA, but if we are going to draft one, then either he needs to be a 1st round talent that slipped to a lower round, or we've addressed every other need on this team, including

QB, OL, WR, CB, C?, LB, KR/PR and S, before we even think about a DE LDE or otherwise...

Were did you get that Keneche was a Pass Rush Specialist?
I think he had something like 15 sacks or so coming out but no were did I read anything that aluded to the fact that he was a sack artist.


Infact most of the scouting reporst said stuff about how he would stand up to the run at the point of attack etc etc etc.


not a pass rush specialist..??
you mean the same kid who had 16.5 sacks his last year at USC??

and thought of as a speed rusher coming out of college

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2004-04-14-defensive-ends_x.htm

"Southern California's Kenechi Udeze, the top-rated end on some teams' draft boards, reportedly has 9% body fat on a 6-3, 281-pound frame. As a high school defensive tackle, he once weighed 382. To secure his college scholarship, Udeze needed to make good on a pledge to lose 30 pounds from the end of his final high school season and signing day. And he kept dropping pounds, transforming himself into a chiseled speed rusher. "When I lost the weight, not only did I gain a lot of self-confidence on the field when my athleticism started peaking, but as a human being I developed much more socially and became a different person," said Udeze, who posted 16½ sacks in 2003 and became USC's first All-America defensive lineman since Tim Ryan in 1989."

yep, your right, he could never be a pass rush specialist


Marrdro you just got......
http://usversusthem.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/owned.jpg

LOL, Owned huh.
I thought that kindof childish crap happened on other sites.......More along the lines of, "He refreshed my memory".
Seriously, I was 1.5 sacks off.
Again, not a bad memory for an old fart.

Marrdro
01-14-2009, 10:02 AM
"V" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


It's kind of funny reading thru this thread & seeing people chomping at the bit, looking forward to next year for Udeze to get back on the field & boost our defense.

Hey Marr, remember 2 years ago when you, I & only a few more people were the only ones supporting him against the masses that wanted to cut/release him from this team because he didn't get a sack when he was playing out of position?


If Udeze got cut right now, our D would not miss a heartbeat. Right now he's quality depth and nothing more.

Well, maybe not miss a beat, however, with him starting and taking all the base snaps/reps, our rushers would be a hell of alot fresher during actual game time situations as well as alot healthier at the end of the year when we need them the most which would result in more production.

Quality depth my ass...... ;D ;D ;D

bleedpurple
01-14-2009, 10:10 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


Udeze bigger and slower??.. c'mon Marr.. our entire D-line was garbage that year... and do you forget that Udeze coming out of college was a pass rush specialist, not a run stuffer?..

c'mon... he's more than capable of being that LDE.. and so is ray ray...

I'm all for drafting the BPA, but if we are going to draft one, then either he needs to be a 1st round talent that slipped to a lower round, or we've addressed every other need on this team, including

QB, OL, WR, CB, C?, LB, KR/PR and S, before we even think about a DE LDE or otherwise...

Were did you get that Keneche was a Pass Rush Specialist?
I think he had something like 15 sacks or so coming out but no were did I read anything that aluded to the fact that he was a sack artist.


Infact most of the scouting reporst said stuff about how he would stand up to the run at the point of attack etc etc etc.


not a pass rush specialist..??
you mean the same kid who had 16.5 sacks his last year at USC??

and thought of as a speed rusher coming out of college

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2004-04-14-defensive-ends_x.htm

"Southern California's Kenechi Udeze, the top-rated end on some teams' draft boards, reportedly has 9% body fat on a 6-3, 281-pound frame. As a high school defensive tackle, he once weighed 382. To secure his college scholarship, Udeze needed to make good on a pledge to lose 30 pounds from the end of his final high school season and signing day. And he kept dropping pounds, transforming himself into a chiseled speed rusher. "When I lost the weight, not only did I gain a lot of self-confidence on the field when my athleticism started peaking, but as a human being I developed much more socially and became a different person," said Udeze, who posted 16½ sacks in 2003 and became USC's first All-America defensive lineman since Tim Ryan in 1989."

yep, your right, he could never be a pass rush specialist

So I was off 1.5 sacks.
Not a bad memory.
Seriously, I just didn't remember that he was touted as some sort of sack artist.

I find it interesting that the scouting report talks about dropping pounds to get faster....Hmmmmmmmm, kindof tracks with what some yutz is trying to tell you guys now doesn't it.


I never argued you with the fact of dropping lbs to get faster... you were referring to weight gain for edwards in order for him to stop the run and take on RT/TE.... that has nothing to do with speed...

additionally, Keneche was a DT in high school... where he was almost 300lbs... so again, not quite sure what that has to do with anything!!...
entirely different analogies....

Marrdro
01-14-2009, 10:13 AM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


Udeze bigger and slower??.. c'mon Marr.. our entire D-line was garbage that year... and do you forget that Udeze coming out of college was a pass rush specialist, not a run stuffer?..

c'mon... he's more than capable of being that LDE.. and so is ray ray...

I'm all for drafting the BPA, but if we are going to draft one, then either he needs to be a 1st round talent that slipped to a lower round, or we've addressed every other need on this team, including

QB, OL, WR, CB, C?, LB, KR/PR and S, before we even think about a DE LDE or otherwise...

Were did you get that Keneche was a Pass Rush Specialist?
I think he had something like 15 sacks or so coming out but no were did I read anything that aluded to the fact that he was a sack artist.


Infact most of the scouting reporst said stuff about how he would stand up to the run at the point of attack etc etc etc.


not a pass rush specialist..??
you mean the same kid who had 16.5 sacks his last year at USC??

and thought of as a speed rusher coming out of college

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2004-04-14-defensive-ends_x.htm

"Southern California's Kenechi Udeze, the top-rated end on some teams' draft boards, reportedly has 9% body fat on a 6-3, 281-pound frame. As a high school defensive tackle, he once weighed 382. To secure his college scholarship, Udeze needed to make good on a pledge to lose 30 pounds from the end of his final high school season and signing day. And he kept dropping pounds, transforming himself into a chiseled speed rusher. "When I lost the weight, not only did I gain a lot of self-confidence on the field when my athleticism started peaking, but as a human being I developed much more socially and became a different person," said Udeze, who posted 16½ sacks in 2003 and became USC's first All-America defensive lineman since Tim Ryan in 1989."

yep, your right, he could never be a pass rush specialist

So I was off 1.5 sacks.
Not a bad memory.
Seriously, I just didn't remember that he was touted as some sort of sack artist.

I find it interesting that the scouting report talks about dropping pounds to get faster....Hmmmmmmmm, kindof tracks with what some yutz is trying to tell you guys now doesn't it.


I never argued you with the fact of dropping lbs to get faster... you were referring to weight gain for edwards in order for him to stop the run and take on RT/TE.... that has nothing to do with speed...

additionally, Keneche was a DT in high school... where he was almost 300lbs... so again, not quite sure what that has to do with anything!!...
entirely different analogies....

Kindof a verse visa thing......

Keneche loses weight to get faster.
Ray adds weight to hold up against the run better equates to loss of speed kindof comparison.

bleedpurple
01-14-2009, 10:21 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:




Udeze bigger and slower??.. c'mon Marr.. our entire D-line was garbage that year... and do you forget that Udeze coming out of college was a pass rush specialist, not a run stuffer?..

c'mon... he's more than capable of being that LDE.. and so is ray ray...

I'm all for drafting the BPA, but if we are going to draft one, then either he needs to be a 1st round talent that slipped to a lower round, or we've addressed every other need on this team, including

QB, OL, WR, CB, C?, LB, KR/PR and S, before we even think about a DE LDE or otherwise...

Were did you get that Keneche was a Pass Rush Specialist?
I think he had something like 15 sacks or so coming out but no were did I read anything that aluded to the fact that he was a sack artist.


Infact most of the scouting reporst said stuff about how he would stand up to the run at the point of attack etc etc etc.


not a pass rush specialist..??
you mean the same kid who had 16.5 sacks his last year at USC??

and thought of as a speed rusher coming out of college

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2004-04-14-defensive-ends_x.htm

"Southern California's Kenechi Udeze, the top-rated end on some teams' draft boards, reportedly has 9% body fat on a 6-3, 281-pound frame. As a high school defensive tackle, he once weighed 382. To secure his college scholarship, Udeze needed to make good on a pledge to lose 30 pounds from the end of his final high school season and signing day. And he kept dropping pounds, transforming himself into a chiseled speed rusher. "When I lost the weight, not only did I gain a lot of self-confidence on the field when my athleticism started peaking, but as a human being I developed much more socially and became a different person," said Udeze, who posted 16½ sacks in 2003 and became USC's first All-America defensive lineman since Tim Ryan in 1989."

yep, your right, he could never be a pass rush specialist

So I was off 1.5 sacks.
Not a bad memory.
Seriously, I just didn't remember that he was touted as some sort of sack artist.

I find it interesting that the scouting report talks about dropping pounds to get faster....Hmmmmmmmm, kindof tracks with what some yutz is trying to tell you guys now doesn't it.


I never argued you with the fact of dropping lbs to get faster... you were referring to weight gain for edwards in order for him to stop the run and take on RT/TE.... that has nothing to do with speed...

additionally, Keneche was a DT in high school... where he was almost 300lbs... so again, not quite sure what that has to do with anything!!...
entirely different analogies....

Kindof a verse visa thing......

Keneche loses weight to get faster.
Ray adds weight to hold up against the run better equates to loss of speed kindof comparison.


oooh o.k. marr.... i think your --------------* (reaching) but nice try.. so i'll let it go!!
;D

Marrdro
01-14-2009, 10:24 AM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:






Udeze bigger and slower??.. c'mon Marr.. our entire D-line was garbage that year... and do you forget that Udeze coming out of college was a pass rush specialist, not a run stuffer?..

c'mon... he's more than capable of being that LDE.. and so is ray ray...

I'm all for drafting the BPA, but if we are going to draft one, then either he needs to be a 1st round talent that slipped to a lower round, or we've addressed every other need on this team, including

QB, OL, WR, CB, C?, LB, KR/PR and S, before we even think about a DE LDE or otherwise...

Were did you get that Keneche was a Pass Rush Specialist?
I think he had something like 15 sacks or so coming out but no were did I read anything that aluded to the fact that he was a sack artist.


Infact most of the scouting reporst said stuff about how he would stand up to the run at the point of attack etc etc etc.


not a pass rush specialist..??
you mean the same kid who had 16.5 sacks his last year at USC??

and thought of as a speed rusher coming out of college

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2004-04-14-defensive-ends_x.htm

"Southern California's Kenechi Udeze, the top-rated end on some teams' draft boards, reportedly has 9% body fat on a 6-3, 281-pound frame. As a high school defensive tackle, he once weighed 382. To secure his college scholarship, Udeze needed to make good on a pledge to lose 30 pounds from the end of his final high school season and signing day. And he kept dropping pounds, transforming himself into a chiseled speed rusher. "When I lost the weight, not only did I gain a lot of self-confidence on the field when my athleticism started peaking, but as a human being I developed much more socially and became a different person," said Udeze, who posted 16½ sacks in 2003 and became USC's first All-America defensive lineman since Tim Ryan in 1989."

yep, your right, he could never be a pass rush specialist

So I was off 1.5 sacks.
Not a bad memory.
Seriously, I just didn't remember that he was touted as some sort of sack artist.

I find it interesting that the scouting report talks about dropping pounds to get faster....Hmmmmmmmm, kindof tracks with what some yutz is trying to tell you guys now doesn't it.


I never argued you with the fact of dropping lbs to get faster... you were referring to weight gain for edwards in order for him to stop the run and take on RT/TE.... that has nothing to do with speed...

additionally, Keneche was a DT in high school... where he was almost 300lbs... so again, not quite sure what that has to do with anything!!...
entirely different analogies....

Kindof a verse visa thing......

Keneche loses weight to get faster.
Ray adds weight to hold up against the run better equates to loss of speed kindof comparison.


oooh o.k. marr.... i think your --------------* (reaching) but nice try.. so i'll let it go!!

;D

LOL, reaching??
Did you read any of the links I gave you?
Seriously, I don't just make this sheeeyat up.
...... ;D

V-Unit
01-14-2009, 03:57 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:








Udeze bigger and slower??.. c'mon Marr.. our entire D-line was garbage that year... and do you forget that Udeze coming out of college was a pass rush specialist, not a run stuffer?..

c'mon... he's more than capable of being that LDE.. and so is ray ray...

I'm all for drafting the BPA, but if we are going to draft one, then either he needs to be a 1st round talent that slipped to a lower round, or we've addressed every other need on this team, including

QB, OL, WR, CB, C?, LB, KR/PR and S, before we even think about a DE LDE or otherwise...

Were did you get that Keneche was a Pass Rush Specialist?
I think he had something like 15 sacks or so coming out but no were did I read anything that aluded to the fact that he was a sack artist.


Infact most of the scouting reporst said stuff about how he would stand up to the run at the point of attack etc etc etc.


not a pass rush specialist..??
you mean the same kid who had 16.5 sacks his last year at USC??

and thought of as a speed rusher coming out of college

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2004-04-14-defensive-ends_x.htm

"Southern California's Kenechi Udeze, the top-rated end on some teams' draft boards, reportedly has 9% body fat on a 6-3, 281-pound frame. As a high school defensive tackle, he once weighed 382. To secure his college scholarship, Udeze needed to make good on a pledge to lose 30 pounds from the end of his final high school season and signing day. And he kept dropping pounds, transforming himself into a chiseled speed rusher. "When I lost the weight, not only did I gain a lot of self-confidence on the field when my athleticism started peaking, but as a human being I developed much more socially and became a different person," said Udeze, who posted 16½ sacks in 2003 and became USC's first All-America defensive lineman since Tim Ryan in 1989."

yep, your right, he could never be a pass rush specialist

So I was off 1.5 sacks.
Not a bad memory.
Seriously, I just didn't remember that he was touted as some sort of sack artist.

I find it interesting that the scouting report talks about dropping pounds to get faster....Hmmmmmmmm, kindof tracks with what some yutz is trying to tell you guys now doesn't it.


I never argued you with the fact of dropping lbs to get faster... you were referring to weight gain for edwards in order for him to stop the run and take on RT/TE.... that has nothing to do with speed...

additionally, Keneche was a DT in high school... where he was almost 300lbs... so again, not quite sure what that has to do with anything!!...
entirely different analogies....

Kindof a verse visa thing......

Keneche loses weight to get faster.
Ray adds weight to hold up against the run better equates to loss of speed kindof comparison.


oooh o.k. marr.... i think your --------------* (reaching) but nice try.. so i'll let it go!!

;D

LOL, reaching??
Did you read any of the links I gave you?
Seriously, I don't just make this sheeeyat up.
...... ;D


Dropping pounds to get faster and adding weight to get stronger.

Obviously you don't make this shit up, it's common sense.

Nobody is arguing that a DE needs to drop weight to be better in run support. We are arguing that Ray, regardless of his weight, is damn good at run support and better than Udeze when it comes to beign a DE in general.

Overlord
01-14-2009, 05:25 PM
I don't see why Marrdro is getting smacked around for this.
He essentially seemed to be arguing the point that left defensive ends are ideally larger than right defensive ends.
That's conventionally true in the NFL.

Here are the stats: of the 22 teams that run a 4-3, 13 have a LDE that is listed as heavier than their RDE, 2 teams have ends weighing an equal amount, and 7 have a RDE that is heavier than the LDE.
In other words, while it is conventionally true, it's a trend and not a rule.


The reason is that players come in different packages.
You want an athletic pass rusher to attack the talented left tackle and the QB's blindside.
Usually this means sacrificing size.
But sometimes you get a Mario Williams or Julius Peppers.
Sometimes you just don't have that athlete on the roster, so you might as well go big.

All else being equal, it's always better to be bigger.

All else being equal, it's always better to be faster.

But things aren't usually equal and their are limited resources.
It becomes a distribution of resources problem.
The tendency is to go fast on the right side and big on the left.

That leads to the Vikings, who have two potential starters at left defensive end next year.
The question for them isn't, "who fits our ideal body type for the position?"
Instead, they want to figure out who is going to do the best at that position.
Or more accurately, what distribution of playing time will maximize performance out of the position?

Personally, I hope and expect Udeze will start.
I thought he played very well in 2007, and my expectation is that he'll be back in shape and ready to go for 2009.
I do think Udeze was better against the run, and I think Edwards will have more impact as a situational player.


But Edwards seemed to come on at the end of the season.
He played well in all aspects of the game, regardless of his weight.
It's perfectly reasonable to think he should and will start, whether you believe Udeze will struggle to get back or not.

CCthebest
01-14-2009, 05:42 PM
Personally is Udeze comes back stronger then he was, I think Robison is going to get the job, with Ray spelling him. The more Robison is on the field the better he gets. And I think hes better agasint the run then either of them.

umaguma1979
01-14-2009, 06:27 PM
DE is aposition you can never have enough depth.
If Udeze can play next year - it will be just an added bonus to an already good group.

V-Unit
01-15-2009, 09:54 AM
"Overlord" wrote:


I don't see why Marrdro is getting smacked around for this.
He essentially seemed to be arguing the point that left defensive ends are ideally larger than right defensive ends.
That's conventionally true in the NFL.

Here are the stats: of the 22 teams that run a 4-3, 13 have a LDE that is listed as heavier than their RDE, 2 teams have ends weighing an equal amount, and 7 have a RDE that is heavier than the LDE.
In other words, while it is conventionally true, it's a trend and not a rule.


The reason is that players come in different packages.
You want an athletic pass rusher to attack the talented left tackle and the QB's blindside.
Usually this means sacrificing size.
But sometimes you get a Mario Williams or Julius Peppers.
Sometimes you just don't have that athlete on the roster, so you might as well go big.

All else being equal, it's always better to be bigger.

All else being equal, it's always better to be faster.

But things aren't usually equal and their are limited resources.
It becomes a distribution of resources problem.
The tendency is to go fast on the right side and big on the left.

That leads to the Vikings, who have two potential starters at left defensive end next year.
The question for them isn't, "who fits our ideal body type for the position?"
Instead, they want to figure out who is going to do the best at that position.
Or more accurately, what distribution of playing time will maximize performance out of the position?

Personally, I hope and expect Udeze will start.
I thought he played very well in 2007, and my expectation is that he'll be back in shape and ready to go for 2009.
I do think Udeze was better against the run, and I think Edwards will have more impact as a situational player.


But Edwards seemed to come on at the end of the season.
He played well in all aspects of the game, regardless of his weight.
It's perfectly reasonable to think he should and will start, whether you believe Udeze will struggle to get back or not.


Marrdro is getting smacked around because he is suggesting that Udeze is the better man purely based on size. He goes as far as to say that Udeze is not a pash rush specialist purely based on size, and denied that Udeze was touted as a pass rush specialist coming out of USC, which was blatantly wrong. If we want to have a talent and productivity discussion between Edwards and Udeze, that's fine, but as you say, size is not the determining factor.

Now, the rest of your post, which is a good one, is the key. Do we want to insert a rusty DE into the starting role at the get go? Do we want to demote Edwards, who's 2008 could be the beginning of a fine career, to a situational player?

For me, both answers are no. Edwards has shown he can play all four downs, and play them well, so let him. Udeze was barely able to shows us that even before the health concerns, so work him in against the run and bring him along slowly, that is a luxury we can afford. The fact the Udeze can only play LDE while Ray has seen success at both DE positions shows us that Ray is the more versatile of the two. I am less concerned about having Ray in during a run play than I am about having Udeze in during a pass. Furthermore, I do not think we haven seen Ray's full potential. He has gotten better every year and I would hate to stunt his growth.

Marrdro
01-15-2009, 10:06 AM
"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


I don't see why Marrdro is getting smacked around for this.
He essentially seemed to be arguing the point that left defensive ends are ideally larger than right defensive ends.
That's conventionally true in the NFL.

Here are the stats: of the 22 teams that run a 4-3, 13 have a LDE that is listed as heavier than their RDE, 2 teams have ends weighing an equal amount, and 7 have a RDE that is heavier than the LDE.
In other words, while it is conventionally true, it's a trend and not a rule.


The reason is that players come in different packages.
You want an athletic pass rusher to attack the talented left tackle and the QB's blindside.
Usually this means sacrificing size.
But sometimes you get a Mario Williams or Julius Peppers.
Sometimes you just don't have that athlete on the roster, so you might as well go big.

All else being equal, it's always better to be bigger.

All else being equal, it's always better to be faster.

But things aren't usually equal and their are limited resources.
It becomes a distribution of resources problem.
The tendency is to go fast on the right side and big on the left.

That leads to the Vikings, who have two potential starters at left defensive end next year.
The question for them isn't, "who fits our ideal body type for the position?"
Instead, they want to figure out who is going to do the best at that position.
Or more accurately, what distribution of playing time will maximize performance out of the position?

Personally, I hope and expect Udeze will start.
I thought he played very well in 2007, and my expectation is that he'll be back in shape and ready to go for 2009.
I do think Udeze was better against the run, and I think Edwards will have more impact as a situational player.


But Edwards seemed to come on at the end of the season.
He played well in all aspects of the game, regardless of his weight.
It's perfectly reasonable to think he should and will start, whether you believe Udeze will struggle to get back or not.


Marrdro is getting smacked around because he is suggesting that Udeze is the better man purely based on size. He goes as far as to say that Udeze is not a pash rush specialist purely based on size, and denied that Udeze was touted as a pass rush specialist coming out of USC, which was blatantly wrong. If we want to have a talent and productivity discussion between Edwards and Udeze, that's fine, but as you say, size is not the determining factor.

Now, the rest of your post, which is a good one, is the key. Do we want to insert a rusty DE into the starting role at the get go? Do we want to demote Edwards, who's 2008 could be the beginning of a fine career, to a situational player?

For me, both answers are no. Edwards has shown he can play all four downs, and play them well, so let him. Udeze was barely able to shows us that even before the health concerns, so work him in against the run and bring him along slowly, that is a luxury we can afford. The fact the Udeze can only play LDE while Ray has seen success at both DE positions shows us that Ray is the more versatile of the two. I am less concerned about having Ray in during a run play than I am about having Udeze in during a pass. Furthermore, I do not think we haven seen Ray's full potential. He has gotten better every year and I would hate to stunt his growth.

Again you have missed the whole concept of my post. Quit thinking about the "All Mighty Sack" as your primary focus and look at the defense as a whole.

Marrdro
01-15-2009, 10:07 AM
"Overlord" wrote:


I don't see why Marrdro is getting smacked around for this.

I encourage it my friend.
Makes my day pass.......

By the way, at least you figured out what I was trying to say.
Excellent post.
;D

V-Unit
01-15-2009, 10:29 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


I don't see why Marrdro is getting smacked around for this.
He essentially seemed to be arguing the point that left defensive ends are ideally larger than right defensive ends.
That's conventionally true in the NFL.

Here are the stats: of the 22 teams that run a 4-3, 13 have a LDE that is listed as heavier than their RDE, 2 teams have ends weighing an equal amount, and 7 have a RDE that is heavier than the LDE.
In other words, while it is conventionally true, it's a trend and not a rule.


The reason is that players come in different packages.
You want an athletic pass rusher to attack the talented left tackle and the QB's blindside.
Usually this means sacrificing size.
But sometimes you get a Mario Williams or Julius Peppers.
Sometimes you just don't have that athlete on the roster, so you might as well go big.

All else being equal, it's always better to be bigger.

All else being equal, it's always better to be faster.

But things aren't usually equal and their are limited resources.
It becomes a distribution of resources problem.
The tendency is to go fast on the right side and big on the left.

That leads to the Vikings, who have two potential starters at left defensive end next year.
The question for them isn't, "who fits our ideal body type for the position?"
Instead, they want to figure out who is going to do the best at that position.
Or more accurately, what distribution of playing time will maximize performance out of the position?

Personally, I hope and expect Udeze will start.
I thought he played very well in 2007, and my expectation is that he'll be back in shape and ready to go for 2009.
I do think Udeze was better against the run, and I think Edwards will have more impact as a situational player.


But Edwards seemed to come on at the end of the season.
He played well in all aspects of the game, regardless of his weight.
It's perfectly reasonable to think he should and will start, whether you believe Udeze will struggle to get back or not.


Marrdro is getting smacked around because he is suggesting that Udeze is the better man purely based on size. He goes as far as to say that Udeze is not a pash rush specialist purely based on size, and denied that Udeze was touted as a pass rush specialist coming out of USC, which was blatantly wrong. If we want to have a talent and productivity discussion between Edwards and Udeze, that's fine, but as you say, size is not the determining factor.

Now, the rest of your post, which is a good one, is the key. Do we want to insert a rusty DE into the starting role at the get go? Do we want to demote Edwards, who's 2008 could be the beginning of a fine career, to a situational player?

For me, both answers are no. Edwards has shown he can play all four downs, and play them well, so let him. Udeze was barely able to shows us that even before the health concerns, so work him in against the run and bring him along slowly, that is a luxury we can afford. The fact the Udeze can only play LDE while Ray has seen success at both DE positions shows us that Ray is the more versatile of the two. I am less concerned about having Ray in during a run play than I am about having Udeze in during a pass. Furthermore, I do not think we haven seen Ray's full potential. He has gotten better every year and I would hate to stunt his growth.

Again you have missed the whole concept of my post. Quit thinking about the "All Mighty Sack" as your primary focus and look at the defense as a whole.


Where in this entire thread have I made reference to sack numbers?

The defense as a whole improved from 32 to 18 against the pass and remained at #1 against the run.

SamOchoCinco
01-15-2009, 10:34 AM
yey

Marrdro
01-15-2009, 10:39 AM
"V" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


I don't see why Marrdro is getting smacked around for this.
He essentially seemed to be arguing the point that left defensive ends are ideally larger than right defensive ends.
That's conventionally true in the NFL.

Here are the stats: of the 22 teams that run a 4-3, 13 have a LDE that is listed as heavier than their RDE, 2 teams have ends weighing an equal amount, and 7 have a RDE that is heavier than the LDE.
In other words, while it is conventionally true, it's a trend and not a rule.


The reason is that players come in different packages.
You want an athletic pass rusher to attack the talented left tackle and the QB's blindside.
Usually this means sacrificing size.
But sometimes you get a Mario Williams or Julius Peppers.
Sometimes you just don't have that athlete on the roster, so you might as well go big.

All else being equal, it's always better to be bigger.

All else being equal, it's always better to be faster.

But things aren't usually equal and their are limited resources.
It becomes a distribution of resources problem.
The tendency is to go fast on the right side and big on the left.

That leads to the Vikings, who have two potential starters at left defensive end next year.
The question for them isn't, "who fits our ideal body type for the position?"
Instead, they want to figure out who is going to do the best at that position.
Or more accurately, what distribution of playing time will maximize performance out of the position?

Personally, I hope and expect Udeze will start.
I thought he played very well in 2007, and my expectation is that he'll be back in shape and ready to go for 2009.
I do think Udeze was better against the run, and I think Edwards will have more impact as a situational player.


But Edwards seemed to come on at the end of the season.
He played well in all aspects of the game, regardless of his weight.
It's perfectly reasonable to think he should and will start, whether you believe Udeze will struggle to get back or not.


Marrdro is getting smacked around because he is suggesting that Udeze is the better man purely based on size. He goes as far as to say that Udeze is not a pash rush specialist purely based on size, and denied that Udeze was touted as a pass rush specialist coming out of USC, which was blatantly wrong. If we want to have a talent and productivity discussion between Edwards and Udeze, that's fine, but as you say, size is not the determining factor.

Now, the rest of your post, which is a good one, is the key. Do we want to insert a rusty DE into the starting role at the get go? Do we want to demote Edwards, who's 2008 could be the beginning of a fine career, to a situational player?

For me, both answers are no. Edwards has shown he can play all four downs, and play them well, so let him. Udeze was barely able to shows us that even before the health concerns, so work him in against the run and bring him along slowly, that is a luxury we can afford. The fact the Udeze can only play LDE while Ray has seen success at both DE positions shows us that Ray is the more versatile of the two. I am less concerned about having Ray in during a run play than I am about having Udeze in during a pass. Furthermore, I do not think we haven seen Ray's full potential. He has gotten better every year and I would hate to stunt his growth.

Again you have missed the whole concept of my post. Quit thinking about the "All Mighty Sack" as your primary focus and look at the defense as a whole.


Where in this entire thread have I made reference to sack numbers?

The defense as a whole improved from 32 to 18 against the pass and remained at #1 against the run.

You haven't referenced a number but you aren't gonna try to convince me now that you desire to only keep Ray or Rob in because they are so good against the run are you?
Especially after this comment.


I am less concerned about having Ray in during a run play than I am about having Udeze in during a pass.

V4L
01-15-2009, 10:44 AM
"CCthebest" wrote:


Personally is Udeze comes back stronger then he was, I think Robison is going to get the job, with Ray spelling him. The more Robison is on the field the better he gets. And I think hes better agasint the run then either of them.



Not a chance that he is better against the run then either of them

He is a situational pass rusher at this point in his career

Seems like he wears down during full games

CCthebest
01-15-2009, 11:14 AM
"V4L" wrote:


"CCthebest" wrote:


Personally is Udeze comes back stronger then he was, I think Robison is going to get the job, with Ray spelling him. The more Robison is on the field the better he gets. And I think hes better agasint the run then either of them.



Not a chance that he is better against the run then either of them

He is a situational pass rusher at this point in his career

Seems like he wears down during full games

Robinson? Hes alot better lately. He doesnt get to play as much as Ray or Udeze did, yet he has improved in stopping the run. And when he is fresh hes a beast att he pass rush. And doesnt get called offside 3 friggin times in 1 series.

Marrdro
01-15-2009, 11:18 AM
"CCthebest" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


"CCthebest" wrote:


Personally is Udeze comes back stronger then he was, I think Robison is going to get the job, with Ray spelling him. The more Robison is on the field the better he gets. And I think hes better agasint the run then either of them.



Not a chance that he is better against the run then either of them

He is a situational pass rusher at this point in his career

Seems like he wears down during full games

Robinson? Hes alot better lately. He doesnt get to play as much as Ray or Udeze did, yet he has improved in stopping the run. And when he is fresh hes a beast att he pass rush. And doesnt get called offside 3 friggin times in 1 series.

LOL, did you see how well he did against the Giants stopping the run.
They just put a TE out there to help the T and ran at him at will.
As with the Iggles game, we had to start committing a LB and S/CB to help out which opened up the passing game to that side or didn't you see how many passes went to that side?

V-Unit
01-15-2009, 11:18 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:




Where in this entire thread have I made reference to sack numbers?

The defense as a whole improved from 32 to 18 against the pass and remained at #1 against the run.

You haven't referenced a number but you aren't gonna try to convince me now that you desire to only keep Ray or Rob in because they are so good against the run are you?
Especially after this comment.


I am less concerned about having Ray in during a run play than I am about having Udeze in during a pass.


Please don't put words in my mouth.

I desire to keep Ray in because he is more versatile than Udeze.

Ray has done very well against the run this year. In fact, the only argument you have to suggest that Ray is not a good run stuffer is based on the fact that he weighs less than the typical run-stuffing DE. While it is true that he weighs less, his performance in running situations has been a pleasant surprise and shows that he is improving. IS Udeze the better run stuffer? Sure, but it isn't by a wide margin, and the ability Ray possesses against the pass gives him the edge, IMO.

Ideally, we start the same four we did last year, Have Allen and KWill play all four downs. Have Udeze in to spell Ray and in short yardage and in goalline situations, and have Robison in as a pass rush specialist.

I agree with you though that we have tons of options when it comes to rotating guys in and out.

Marrdro
01-15-2009, 11:29 AM
"V" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:




Where in this entire thread have I made reference to sack numbers?

The defense as a whole improved from 32 to 18 against the pass and remained at #1 against the run.

You haven't referenced a number but you aren't gonna try to convince me now that you desire to only keep Ray or Rob in because they are so good against the run are you?
Especially after this comment.


I am less concerned about having Ray in during a run play than I am about having Udeze in during a pass.


Please don't put words in my mouth.

I desire to keep Ray in because he is more versatile than Udeze.

Ray has done very well against the run this year. In fact, the only argument you have to suggest that Ray is not a good run stuffer is based on the fact that he weighs less than the typical run-stuffing DE. While it is true that he weighs less, his performance in running situations has been a pleasant surprise and shows that he is improving. IS Udeze the better run stuffer? Sure, but it isn't by a wide margin, and the ability Ray possesses against the pass gives him the edge, IMO.

Ideally, we start the same four we did last year, Have Allen and KWill play all four downs. Have Udeze in to spell Ray and in short yardage and in goalline situations, and have Robison in as a pass rush specialist.

I agree with you though that we have tons of options when it comes to rotating guys in and out.

I would never put words in your mouth.
In fact I used your quote that causes me to believe that sacks are more important to you.

As to your rotation.
Do you really recommend that K-will and Phat Pat play every down?
Comeon, even Leslie wasn't dumb enough to do that last year.
There was a set rotation that kept them off the field based on down and distance.

Overlord
01-15-2009, 11:31 AM
"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


I don't see why Marrdro is getting smacked around for this.
He essentially seemed to be arguing the point that left defensive ends are ideally larger than right defensive ends.
That's conventionally true in the NFL.

Here are the stats: of the 22 teams that run a 4-3, 13 have a LDE that is listed as heavier than their RDE, 2 teams have ends weighing an equal amount, and 7 have a RDE that is heavier than the LDE.
In other words, while it is conventionally true, it's a trend and not a rule.


The reason is that players come in different packages.
You want an athletic pass rusher to attack the talented left tackle and the QB's blindside.
Usually this means sacrificing size.
But sometimes you get a Mario Williams or Julius Peppers.
Sometimes you just don't have that athlete on the roster, so you might as well go big.

All else being equal, it's always better to be bigger.

All else being equal, it's always better to be faster.

But things aren't usually equal and their are limited resources.
It becomes a distribution of resources problem.
The tendency is to go fast on the right side and big on the left.

That leads to the Vikings, who have two potential starters at left defensive end next year.
The question for them isn't, "who fits our ideal body type for the position?"
Instead, they want to figure out who is going to do the best at that position.
Or more accurately, what distribution of playing time will maximize performance out of the position?

Personally, I hope and expect Udeze will start.
I thought he played very well in 2007, and my expectation is that he'll be back in shape and ready to go for 2009.
I do think Udeze was better against the run, and I think Edwards will have more impact as a situational player.


But Edwards seemed to come on at the end of the season.
He played well in all aspects of the game, regardless of his weight.
It's perfectly reasonable to think he should and will start, whether you believe Udeze will struggle to get back or not.


Marrdro is getting smacked around because he is suggesting that Udeze is the better man purely based on size. He goes as far as to say that Udeze is not a pash rush specialist purely based on size, and denied that Udeze was touted as a pass rush specialist coming out of USC, which was blatantly wrong. If we want to have a talent and productivity discussion between Edwards and Udeze, that's fine, but as you say, size is not the determining factor.

Now, the rest of your post, which is a good one, is the key. Do we want to insert a rusty DE into the starting role at the get go? Do we want to demote Edwards, who's 2008 could be the beginning of a fine career, to a situational player?

For me, both answers are no. Edwards has shown he can play all four downs, and play them well, so let him. Udeze was barely able to shows us that even before the health concerns, so work him in against the run and bring him along slowly, that is a luxury we can afford. The fact the Udeze can only play LDE while Ray has seen success at both DE positions shows us that Ray is the more versatile of the two. I am less concerned about having Ray in during a run play than I am about having Udeze in during a pass. Furthermore, I do not think we haven seen Ray's full potential. He has gotten better every year and I would hate to stunt his growth.


I think I see what's going on now.


First, there's a whole starter/run-specialist/pass-rush-specialist confusion.
In my mind, I usually equate 'starter' with the run stopper in situations like this, because the first time the opposing team has the ball it's going to be 1st-and-10.
That doesn't mean that he will be on the field for more plays than the next guy, especially when the next guy has shown that he is solid in all situations.
And I wouldn't consider it a demotion for a player to be put in that situation, though I understand that players are more concerned with the title of 'starter.'

Second, there's the issue of whether Edwards isn't as good because he weighs 268 instead of 281.
I don't think anybody is saying that a guy that weighs ten pounds less can't be a good every down player.
What I think is being said is that Edwards' play suffered because he was asked to play every down.
That's what Marrdro saw (from what I can tell).
The weight is the explanation based on that- he must/might have been worn down because he isn't the ideal size.
Thus the belief that his play would improve if he wasn't in every down, but instead was asked only to do what he does best: rush the passer.
I don't read any of it as a statement that we should forget what we saw on the field and only look at the weight.
Rather, I read it as an explanation of why Edwards didn't meet (some people's) expectations.

Now, as to Udeze being a pass rush specialist coming out of college, it simply doesn't matter.
He's got plenty of experience in the NFL to judge him on.
He hasn't proven to be a great pass rusher.
But he's been okay.
He had two five sack seasons from the left end spot.
He's a very solid all-around player, in my opinion.
Not everyone is Reggie White.

Anyway, I see where you're coming from in wanting Edwards to start.
You simply think he's the better player, which is fair.
If I had to pick only one to be on the roster, I would probably go with Edwards.
But I really like the combination of Udeze in for running situations with Edwards coming in fresh on passing downs.
Obviously there is some flexibility there, because neither is a completely one dimensional player.
I also like the idea of moving them around the line (e.g., Udeze, Edwards, or Robison to DT) in some passing situations.
And of course, we don't know how healthy Udeze will be.
I'm optimistic.

V-Unit
01-15-2009, 11:44 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"V" wrote:




Where in this entire thread have I made reference to sack numbers?

The defense as a whole improved from 32 to 18 against the pass and remained at #1 against the run.

You haven't referenced a number but you aren't gonna try to convince me now that you desire to only keep Ray or Rob in because they are so good against the run are you?
Especially after this comment.


I am less concerned about having Ray in during a run play than I am about having Udeze in during a pass.


Please don't put words in my mouth.

I desire to keep Ray in because he is more versatile than Udeze.

Ray has done very well against the run this year. In fact, the only argument you have to suggest that Ray is not a good run stuffer is based on the fact that he weighs less than the typical run-stuffing DE. While it is true that he weighs less, his performance in running situations has been a pleasant surprise and shows that he is improving. IS Udeze the better run stuffer? Sure, but it isn't by a wide margin, and the ability Ray possesses against the pass gives him the edge, IMO.

Ideally, we start the same four we did last year, Have Allen and KWill play all four downs. Have Udeze in to spell Ray and in short yardage and in goalline situations, and have Robison in as a pass rush specialist.

I agree with you though that we have tons of options when it comes to rotating guys in and out.

I would never put words in your mouth.
In fact I used your quote that causes me to believe that sacks are more important to you.

As to your rotation.
Do you really recommend that K-will and Phat Pat play every down?
Comeon, even Leslie wasn't dumb enough to do that last year.
There was a set rotation that kept them off the field based on down and distance.


What you quoted says nothing about sacks. It says that I value Ray over Udeze in passing situations.

Again a misread. First of all, I never say that Phat Pat should play every down. Secondly, KWill of course should not play every snap of the game, but from a situational standpoint, there is never a snap that KWill cannot perform well in, if rested of course. You take KWill out based on fatigue. You take PWill out based on the situation.

ThorSPL
01-15-2009, 11:55 AM
"V4L" wrote:


"CCthebest" wrote:


Personally is Udeze comes back stronger then he was, I think Robison is going to get the job, with Ray spelling him. The more Robison is on the field the better he gets. And I think hes better agasint the run then either of them.



Not a chance that he is better against the run then either of them

He is a situational pass rusher at this point in his career

Seems like he wears down during full games


He's still pretty young...

As for him wearing down, do you think the fact that he had Leukemia may have had something to do with stamina troubles?
I have NO idea how rapid the onset is, etc.
But it certainly could account for that.

V-Unit
01-15-2009, 12:05 PM
"Overlord" wrote:



I think I see what's going on now.


First, there's a whole starter/run-specialist/pass-rush-specialist confusion.
In my mind, I usually equate 'starter' with the run stopper in situations like this, because the first time the opposing team has the ball it's going to be 1st-and-10.
That doesn't mean that he will be on the field for more plays than the next guy, especially when the next guy has shown that he is solid in all situations.
And I wouldn't consider it a demotion for a player to be put in that situation, though I understand that players are more concerned with the title of 'starter.'

Second, there's the issue of whether Edwards isn't as good because he weighs 268 instead of 281.
I don't think anybody is saying that a guy that weighs ten pounds less can't be a good every down player.
What I think is being said is that Edwards' play suffered because he was asked to play every down.
That's what Marrdro saw (from what I can tell).
The weight is the explanation based on that- he must/might have been worn down because he isn't the ideal size.
Thus the belief that his play would improve if he wasn't in every down, but instead was asked only to do what he does best: rush the passer.
I don't read any of it as a statement that we should forget what we saw on the field and only look at the weight.
Rather, I read it as an explanation of why Edwards didn't meet (some people's) expectations.

Now, as to Udeze being a pass rush specialist coming out of college, it simply doesn't matter.
He's got plenty of experience in the NFL to judge him on.
He hasn't proven to be a great pass rusher.
But he's been okay.
He had two five sack seasons from the left end spot.
He's a very solid all-around player, in my opinion.
Not everyone is Reggie White.

Anyway, I see where you're coming from in wanting Edwards to start.
You simply think he's the better player, which is fair.
If I had to pick only one to be on the roster, I would probably go with Edwards.
But I really like the combination of Udeze in for running situations with Edwards coming in fresh on passing downs.
Obviously there is some flexibility there, because neither is a completely one dimensional player.
I also like the idea of moving them around the line (e.g., Udeze, Edwards, or Robison to DT) in some passing situations.
And of course, we don't know how healthy Udeze will be.
I'm optimistic.



1. I see the starter as the guy who is going to be in for the majority of the snaps, not the guy who starts the game. I see a run specialist as a guy who is a detriment against the pass, and a pass specialist as the opposite of that (Robison).

2. I understand your argument, but I did not see this wearing down that would lead to this argument in the first place. I did not see Edwards' play suffer. With that in mind, putting him in for specific situations would not increase his performance, but it would hinder it, because you are giving him less chances to make plays. I recall Allen saying he likes to play every down and one of the reasons is that he can set his opponent up for different moves at different times.

3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

4. I really don't like the combination. As I said above, it limits both players. I think one should start and the other should spell him. We would suffer little to no drop in skill when the spell guy comes in, and the spell guy can be moved around, as you suggested. Using one for run and one for pass is boring and predictable. The offense has these things called audibles to take advantage of things like that.

Marrdro
01-15-2009, 12:10 PM
"Overlord" wrote:


I think I see what's going on now.


First, there's a whole starter/run-specialist/pass-rush-specialist confusion.
In my mind, I usually equate 'starter' with the run stopper in situations like this, because the first time the opposing team has the ball it's going to be 1st-and-10.
That doesn't mean that he will be on the field for more plays than the next guy, especially when the next guy has shown that he is solid in all situations.
And I wouldn't consider it a demotion for a player to be put in that situation, though I understand that players are more concerned with the title of 'starter.'

Second, there's the issue of whether Edwards isn't as good because he weighs 268 instead of 281.
I don't think anybody is saying that a guy that weighs ten pounds less can't be a good every down player.
What I think is being said is that Edwards' play suffered because he was asked to play every down.
That's what Marrdro saw (from what I can tell).
The weight is the explanation based on that- he must/might have been worn down because he isn't the ideal size.
Thus the belief that his play would improve if he wasn't in every down, but instead was asked only to do what he does best: rush the passer.
I don't read any of it as a statement that we should forget what we saw on the field and only look at the weight.
Rather, I read it as an explanation of why Edwards didn't meet (some people's) expectations.

Now, as to Udeze being a pass rush specialist coming out of college, it simply doesn't matter.
He's got plenty of experience in the NFL to judge him on.
He hasn't proven to be a great pass rusher.
But he's been okay.
He had two five sack seasons from the left end spot.
He's a very solid all-around player, in my opinion.
Not everyone is Reggie White.

Anyway, I see where you're coming from in wanting Edwards to start.
You simply think he's the better player, which is fair.
If I had to pick only one to be on the roster, I would probably go with Edwards.
But I really like the combination of Udeze in for running situations with Edwards coming in fresh on passing downs.
Obviously there is some flexibility there, because neither is a completely one dimensional player.
I also like the idea of moving them around the line (e.g., Udeze, Edwards, or Robison to DT) in some passing situations.
And of course, we don't know how healthy Udeze will be.
I'm optimistic.


You my friend have just been elevated to the highest reaches of the ole spreadsheet.

Excellent post. ;D

bleedpurple
01-15-2009, 12:19 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


I think I see what's going on now.


First, there's a whole starter/run-specialist/pass-rush-specialist confusion.
In my mind, I usually equate 'starter' with the run stopper in situations like this, because the first time the opposing team has the ball it's going to be 1st-and-10.
That doesn't mean that he will be on the field for more plays than the next guy, especially when the next guy has shown that he is solid in all situations.
And I wouldn't consider it a demotion for a player to be put in that situation, though I understand that players are more concerned with the title of 'starter.'

Second, there's the issue of whether Edwards isn't as good because he weighs 268 instead of 281.
I don't think anybody is saying that a guy that weighs ten pounds less can't be a good every down player.
What I think is being said is that Edwards' play suffered because he was asked to play every down.
That's what Marrdro saw (from what I can tell).
The weight is the explanation based on that- he must/might have been worn down because he isn't the ideal size.
Thus the belief that his play would improve if he wasn't in every down, but instead was asked only to do what he does best: rush the passer.
I don't read any of it as a statement that we should forget what we saw on the field and only look at the weight.
Rather, I read it as an explanation of why Edwards didn't meet (some people's) expectations.

Now, as to Udeze being a pass rush specialist coming out of college, it simply doesn't matter.
He's got plenty of experience in the NFL to judge him on.
He hasn't proven to be a great pass rusher.
But he's been okay.
He had two five sack seasons from the left end spot.
He's a very solid all-around player, in my opinion.
Not everyone is Reggie White.

Anyway, I see where you're coming from in wanting Edwards to start.
You simply think he's the better player, which is fair.
If I had to pick only one to be on the roster, I would probably go with Edwards.
But I really like the combination of Udeze in for running situations with Edwards coming in fresh on passing downs.
Obviously there is some flexibility there, because neither is a completely one dimensional player.
I also like the idea of moving them around the line (e.g., Udeze, Edwards, or Robison to DT) in some passing situations.
And of course, we don't know how healthy Udeze will be.
I'm optimistic.


You My Sexy Little Pixie have just been elevated to the highest reaches of the ole spreadsheet.

Excellent post. ;D


i bet you have over 1,000 post such as this...

and OL, the weight thing is a bunch of dog pooh that ole' marr here is trying really hard to sell... let's hope he's not a salesman on his day job!!!...
I'm not buying!!!
;D

Overlord
01-15-2009, 12:29 PM
Interesting stuff, V.

"V" wrote:


2. I understand your argument, but I did not see this wearing down that would lead to this argument in the first place. I did not see Edwards' play suffer. With that in mind, putting him in for specific situations would not increase his performance, but it would hinder it, because you are giving him less chances to make plays. I recall Allen saying he likes to play every down and one of the reasons is that he can set his opponent up for different moves at different times.

This is interesting.
There's certainly a balance that is different for different players.
You have some Jared Allens and some Lance Johnstones.
Maybe, especially as his career goes on, Ray Edwards will prove to be much more of a Jared Allen


3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.


4. I really don't like the combination. As I said above, it limits both players. I think one should start and the other should spell him. We would suffer little to no drop in skill when the spell guy comes in, and the spell guy can be moved around, as you suggested. Using one for run and one for pass is boring and predictable. The offense has these things called audibles to take advantage of things like that.


I don't think the audible thing is a big deal.
You're trying to defend against an offense's tendencies.
You don't have to be right on every call.
If they audible to a run on third-and-ten, good.
The chances of converting are very small, no matter who is playing the left end spot.

And with these two, subbing for rest vs. situation will probably make a minimal difference.
I do think in general you want to get your best run guy in on run downs, and pass rusher on passing downs.

Can't find any major fault with your opinion though, as Edwards and Udeze are both solid players, and Edwards still has more potential.

Marrdro
01-15-2009, 12:30 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


I think I see what's going on now.


First, there's a whole starter/run-specialist/pass-rush-specialist confusion.
In my mind, I usually equate 'starter' with the run stopper in situations like this, because the first time the opposing team has the ball it's going to be 1st-and-10.
That doesn't mean that he will be on the field for more plays than the next guy, especially when the next guy has shown that he is solid in all situations.
And I wouldn't consider it a demotion for a player to be put in that situation, though I understand that players are more concerned with the title of 'starter.'

Second, there's the issue of whether Edwards isn't as good because he weighs 268 instead of 281.
I don't think anybody is saying that a guy that weighs ten pounds less can't be a good every down player.
What I think is being said is that Edwards' play suffered because he was asked to play every down.
That's what Marrdro saw (from what I can tell).
The weight is the explanation based on that- he must/might have been worn down because he isn't the ideal size.
Thus the belief that his play would improve if he wasn't in every down, but instead was asked only to do what he does best: rush the passer.
I don't read any of it as a statement that we should forget what we saw on the field and only look at the weight.
Rather, I read it as an explanation of why Edwards didn't meet (some people's) expectations.

Now, as to Udeze being a pass rush specialist coming out of college, it simply doesn't matter.
He's got plenty of experience in the NFL to judge him on.
He hasn't proven to be a great pass rusher.
But he's been okay.
He had two five sack seasons from the left end spot.
He's a very solid all-around player, in my opinion.
Not everyone is Reggie White.

Anyway, I see where you're coming from in wanting Edwards to start.
You simply think he's the better player, which is fair.
If I had to pick only one to be on the roster, I would probably go with Edwards.
But I really like the combination of Udeze in for running situations with Edwards coming in fresh on passing downs.
Obviously there is some flexibility there, because neither is a completely one dimensional player.
I also like the idea of moving them around the line (e.g., Udeze, Edwards, or Robison to DT) in some passing situations.
And of course, we don't know how healthy Udeze will be.
I'm optimistic.


You My Sexy Little Pixie have just been elevated to the highest reaches of the ole spreadsheet.

Excellent post. ;D


i bet you have over 1,000 post such as this...

and OL, the weight thing is a bunch of dog pooh that ole' marr here is trying really hard to sell... let's hope he's not a salesman on his day job!!!...
I'm not buying!!!
;D

Did you read the links I provided a few posts ago?

V-Unit
01-15-2009, 01:13 PM
"Overlord" wrote:


Interesting stuff, V.

"V" wrote:


2. I understand your argument, but I did not see this wearing down that would lead to this argument in the first place. I did not see Edwards' play suffer. With that in mind, putting him in for specific situations would not increase his performance, but it would hinder it, because you are giving him less chances to make plays. I recall Allen saying he likes to play every down and one of the reasons is that he can set his opponent up for different moves at different times.

This is interesting.
There's certainly a balance that is different for different players.
You have some Jared Allens and some Lance Johnstones.
Maybe, especially as his career goes on, Ray Edwards will prove to be much more of a Jared Allen


3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.



That'd be pretty damn nice huh, plus we'd have Udeze behind him.

bleedpurple
01-15-2009, 01:57 PM
"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


Interesting stuff, V.

"V" wrote:


2. I understand your argument, but I did not see this wearing down that would lead to this argument in the first place. I did not see Edwards' play suffer. With that in mind, putting him in for specific situations would not increase his performance, but it would hinder it, because you are giving him less chances to make plays. I recall Allen saying he likes to play every down and one of the reasons is that he can set his opponent up for different moves at different times.

This is interesting.
There's certainly a balance that is different for different players.
You have some Jared Allens and some Lance Johnstones.
Maybe, especially as his career goes on, Ray Edwards will prove to be much more of a Jared Allen


3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.



That'd be pretty gol 'darnit nice huh, plus we'd have Udeze behind him.


not a chance he develops into that... if your gonna be a dominant pass rusher, chances are we'd seen it fro him by now... those guys you mentined are elite players... edwards garnered what? 5-6 sacks playing next to 3 pro-bowlers on the Dline.. noway he turns into anybody other than ray edwards the guy who gets us anywhere from 5-7 sacks a season and plays decent run D

Marrdro
01-15-2009, 02:02 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


Interesting stuff, V.

"V" wrote:


2. I understand your argument, but I did not see this wearing down that would lead to this argument in the first place. I did not see Edwards' play suffer. With that in mind, putting him in for specific situations would not increase his performance, but it would hinder it, because you are giving him less chances to make plays. I recall Allen saying he likes to play every down and one of the reasons is that he can set his opponent up for different moves at different times.

This is interesting.
There's certainly a balance that is different for different players.
You have some Jared Allens and some Lance Johnstones.
Maybe, especially as his career goes on, Ray Edwards will prove to be much more of a Jared Allen


3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.



That'd be pretty gol 'darnit nice huh, plus we'd have Udeze behind him.


not a chance he develops into that... if your gonna be a dominant pass rusher, chances are we'd seen it fro him by now... those guys you mentined are elite players... edwards garnered what? 5-6 sacks playing next to 3 pro-bowlers on the Dline.. noway he turns into anybody other than ray edwards the guy who gets us anywhere from 5-7 sacks a season and plays decent run D

Funny thing is, they have thier dominant pass rusher on the other end.

bleedpurple
01-15-2009, 02:06 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


Interesting stuff, V.

"V" wrote:


2. I understand your argument, but I did not see this wearing down that would lead to this argument in the first place. I did not see Edwards' play suffer. With that in mind, putting him in for specific situations would not increase his performance, but it would hinder it, because you are giving him less chances to make plays. I recall Allen saying he likes to play every down and one of the reasons is that he can set his opponent up for different moves at different times.

This is interesting.
There's certainly a balance that is different for different players.
You have some Jared Allens and some Lance Johnstones.
Maybe, especially as his career goes on, Ray Edwards will prove to be much more of a Jared Allen


3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.



That'd be pretty gol 'darnit nice huh, plus we'd have Udeze behind him.


not a chance he develops into that... if your gonna be a dominant pass rusher, chances are we'd seen it fro him by now... those guys you mentined are elite players... edwards garnered what? 5-6 sacks playing next to 3 pro-bowlers on the Dline.. noway he turns into anybody other than ray edwards the guy who gets us anywhere from 5-7 sacks a season and plays decent run D

Funny thing is, they have thier dominant pass rusher on the other end.


i know!!.. absolutely!!.. but you can never have too many talented DE's that can rush the passer... just look at the Giants...

Overlord
01-15-2009, 02:23 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


...

3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.



That'd be pretty gol 'darnit nice huh, plus we'd have Udeze behind him.


not a chance he develops into that... if your gonna be a dominant pass rusher, chances are we'd seen it fro him by now... those guys you mentined are elite players... edwards garnered what? 5-6 sacks playing next to 3 pro-bowlers on the Dline.. noway he turns into anybody other than ray edwards the guy who gets us anywhere from 5-7 sacks a season and plays decent run D


I'm not so sure.
Obviously the chance of him developing into that kind of player isn't great, but that's where 'optimism' and 'upside' come in.
But there is a chance.

Take a look at Strahan's career (link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StraMi02.htm)).
The guy totaled 18 sacks over his first four years while starting 46 games.
It was in his fifth season that he took off, finally reaching double digits with 14 sacks.

Justin Tuck couldn't even find his way on the field his first two years.
The past two years he's had double digit sack numbers (link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TuckJu20.htm)).

Not everybody develops that way, or pass rushing defensive ends would be a dime a dozen.
But a man can dream.

bleedpurple
01-15-2009, 02:43 PM
"Overlord" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


...

3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.



That'd be pretty gol 'darnit nice huh, plus we'd have Udeze behind him.


not a chance he develops into that... if your gonna be a dominant pass rusher, chances are we'd seen it fro him by now... those guys you mentined are elite players... edwards garnered what? 5-6 sacks playing next to 3 pro-bowlers on the Dline.. noway he turns into anybody other than ray edwards the guy who gets us anywhere from 5-7 sacks a season and plays decent run D


I'm not so sure.
Obviously the chance of him developing into that kind of player isn't great, but that's where 'optimism' and 'upside' come in.
But there is a chance.

Take a look at Strahan's career (link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StraMi02.htm)).
The guy totaled 18 sacks over his first four years while starting 46 games.
It was in his fifth season that he took off, finally reaching double digits with 14 sacks.

Justin Tuck couldn't even find his way on the field his first two years.
The past two years he's had double digit sack numbers (link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TuckJu20.htm)).

Not everybody develops that way, or pass rushing defensive ends would be a dime a dozen.
But a man can dream.


I can dream i have $20 million dollars and Jessica Alba as my wife too.... but i'm not posting that, or spouting it off like that's a possiblity!!..

oh, wait!!! i just did!!!
;D


i understand your point.. but I just dont see it happening... i think Udeze, for some reason has a better chance at becoming a dominant end rusher than edwards, if he can stay healthy!

jargomcfargo
01-15-2009, 02:54 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


...

3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.



That'd be pretty gol 'darnit nice huh, plus we'd have Udeze behind him.


not a chance he develops into that... if your gonna be a dominant pass rusher, chances are we'd seen it fro him by now... those guys you mentined are elite players... edwards garnered what? 5-6 sacks playing next to 3 pro-bowlers on the Dline.. noway he turns into anybody other than ray edwards the guy who gets us anywhere from 5-7 sacks a season and plays decent run D


I'm not so sure.
Obviously the chance of him developing into that kind of player isn't great, but that's where 'optimism' and 'upside' come in.
But there is a chance.

Take a look at Strahan's career (link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StraMi02.htm)).
The guy totaled 18 sacks over his first four years while starting 46 games.
It was in his fifth season that he took off, finally reaching double digits with 14 sacks.

Justin Tuck couldn't even find his way on the field his first two years.
The past two years he's had double digit sack numbers (link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TuckJu20.htm)).

Not everybody develops that way, or pass rushing defensive ends would be a dime a dozen.
But a man can dream.


I can dream i have $20 million dollars and Jessica Alba as my wife too.... but i'm not posting that, or spouting it off like that's a possiblity!!..

oh, wait!!! i just did!!!

;D


i understand your point.. but I just dont see it happening... i think Udeze, for some reason has a better chance at becoming a dominant end rusher than edwards, if he can stay healthy!


I also prefer Udeze if he makes it back healthy.

Overlord
01-15-2009, 03:14 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


...

3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.



That'd be pretty gol 'darnit nice huh, plus we'd have Udeze behind him.


not a chance he develops into that... if your gonna be a dominant pass rusher, chances are we'd seen it fro him by now... those guys you mentined are elite players... edwards garnered what? 5-6 sacks playing next to 3 pro-bowlers on the Dline.. noway he turns into anybody other than ray edwards the guy who gets us anywhere from 5-7 sacks a season and plays decent run D


I'm not so sure.
Obviously the chance of him developing into that kind of player isn't great, but that's where 'optimism' and 'upside' come in.
But there is a chance.

Take a look at Strahan's career (link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StraMi02.htm)).
The guy totaled 18 sacks over his first four years while starting 46 games.
It was in his fifth season that he took off, finally reaching double digits with 14 sacks.

Justin Tuck couldn't even find his way on the field his first two years.
The past two years he's had double digit sack numbers (link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TuckJu20.htm)).

Not everybody develops that way, or pass rushing defensive ends would be a dime a dozen.
But a man can dream.


I can dream i have $20 million dollars and Jessica Alba as my wife too.... but i'm not posting that, or spouting it off like that's a possiblity!!..

oh, wait!!! i just did!!!

;D


i understand your point.. but I just dont see it happening... i think Udeze, for some reason has a better chance at becoming a dominant end rusher than edwards, if he can stay healthy!


I see what you're getting at, but I really don't think I'm just being silly by posting this.
I'll step back through the context and then give you some more statistical evidence here.

First, I was replying to V's comment that he hoped Edwards could become another Reggie White (which was in response to my comment that not everyone is Reggie White).
I was pointing out my strong belief that Edwards will never be that good.
The reasoning is this: he simply doesn't have the physical tools.
Reggie White was 291 pounds, strong as a bull, and fast.
Anyone that can lift Korey Stringer off the ground with a forearm shiver is no average man, even in NFL terms.
His physical dominance was reflected in his stats.
In 15 years, he only had three seasons with less than ten sacks, and had three consecutive seasons with 18 or more early in his career.
But more than just sacks, look at his tackle numbers.
He went over 100 four times.
That's ridiculous for a defensive end.
Consider that none of Julius Peppers, Jared Allen, Mario Williams, or Michael Strahan ever have gone over 66 in one year.
Here's White's stats if you want to take a look: link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WhitRe00.htm).

So I don't believe Edwards can ever do that.
But I was also trying to point out what I think of his upper bound, based on his physical abilities and performance thus far.
He reminded me of Tuck and Strahan in both body type and performance in their early years.
Those are the stats above.

And here's a very simple look at some of the better pass rushing defensive ends in the game recently.
The list isn't exhaustive, and is only 4-3 guys.
The number next to them is the number of seasons it took for them to reach the double digit sack mark.
Just for the heck of it, I've grouped them into guys that have naturally bigger bodies than Edwards (280+), guys the same size, and smaller guys (less than 250).

Bigger:
Marrio Williams - 2 years to reach double digit sacks
Julius Peppers - 1 year
Osi Umenyiora - 3 years

Smaller:
Aaron Schoebel - 3 years
Robert Mathis - 2 years

Same body type:
Jared Allen - 2 years
John Abraham - 2 years
Aaron Kampman - 5 years
Justin Tuck - 3 years
Patrick Kerney - 3 years
Dwight Freeney - 1 year
Vanden Bosch - 5 years
Derrick Burgess - 5 years

So, there are plenty of guys that take awhile to peak.
It's not just the two I mentioned.
Again, I wouldn't take even odds on Edwards becoming that type of player.
But the chances are probably orders of magnitude better than you marrying Jessica Alba.

V-Unit
01-15-2009, 03:21 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


Interesting stuff, V.

"V" wrote:


2. I understand your argument, but I did not see this wearing down that would lead to this argument in the first place. I did not see Edwards' play suffer. With that in mind, putting him in for specific situations would not increase his performance, but it would hinder it, because you are giving him less chances to make plays. I recall Allen saying he likes to play every down and one of the reasons is that he can set his opponent up for different moves at different times.

This is interesting.
There's certainly a balance that is different for different players.
You have some Jared Allens and some Lance Johnstones.
Maybe, especially as his career goes on, Ray Edwards will prove to be much more of a Jared Allen


3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.



That'd be pretty gol 'darnit nice huh, plus we'd have Udeze behind him.


not a chance he develops into that... if your gonna be a dominant pass rusher, chances are we'd seen it fro him by now... those guys you mentined are elite players... edwards garnered what? 5-6 sacks playing next to 3 pro-bowlers on the Dline.. noway he turns into anybody other than ray edwards the guy who gets us anywhere from 5-7 sacks a season and plays decent run D

He has gotten better every year. What makes you think he has hit a plateau?

If Udeze can return to 2007 form, that will be pretty special. Like I said before having these two is a win-win situation.

bleedpurple
01-15-2009, 03:24 PM
"Overlord" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"V" wrote:




...

3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.



That'd be pretty gol 'darnit nice huh, plus we'd have Udeze behind him.


not a chance he develops into that... if your gonna be a dominant pass rusher, chances are we'd seen it fro him by now... those guys you mentined are elite players... edwards garnered what? 5-6 sacks playing next to 3 pro-bowlers on the Dline.. noway he turns into anybody other than ray edwards the guy who gets us anywhere from 5-7 sacks a season and plays decent run D


I'm not so sure.
Obviously the chance of him developing into that kind of player isn't great, but that's where 'optimism' and 'upside' come in.
But there is a chance.

Take a look at Strahan's career (link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StraMi02.htm)).
The guy totaled 18 sacks over his first four years while starting 46 games.
It was in his fifth season that he took off, finally reaching double digits with 14 sacks.

Justin Tuck couldn't even find his way on the field his first two years.
The past two years he's had double digit sack numbers (link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TuckJu20.htm)).

Not everybody develops that way, or pass rushing defensive ends would be a dime a dozen.
But a man can dream.


I can dream i have $20 million dollars and Jessica Alba as my wife too.... but i'm not posting that, or spouting it off like that's a possiblity!!..

oh, wait!!! i just did!!!

;D


i understand your point.. but I just dont see it happening... i think Udeze, for some reason has a better chance at becoming a dominant end rusher than edwards, if he can stay healthy!


I see what you're getting at, but I really don't think I'm just being silly by posting this.
I'll step back through the context and then give you some more statistical evidence here.

First, I was replying to V's comment that he hoped Edwards could become another Reggie White (which was in response to my comment that not everyone is Reggie White).
I was pointing out my strong belief that Edwards will never be that good.
The reasoning is this: he simply doesn't have the physical tools.
Reggie White was 291 pounds, strong as a bull, and fast.
Anyone that can lift Korey Stringer off the ground with a forearm shiver is no average man, even in NFL terms.
His physical dominance was reflected in his stats.
In 15 years, he only had three seasons with less than ten sacks, and had three consecutive seasons with 18 or more early in his career.
But more than just sacks, look at his tackle numbers.
He went over 100 four times.
That's ridiculous for a defensive end.
Consider that none of Julius Peppers, Jared Allen, Mario Williams, or Michael Strahan ever have gone over 66 in one year.
Here's White's stats if you want to take a look: link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WhitRe00.htm).

So I don't believe Edwards can ever do that.
But I was also trying to point out what I think of his upper bound, based on his physical abilities and performance thus far.
He reminded me of Tuck and Strahan in both body type and performance in their early years.
Those are the stats above.

And here's a very simple look at some of the better pass rushing defensive ends in the game recently.
The list isn't exhaustive, and is only 4-3 guys.
The number next to them is the number of seasons it took for them to reach the double digit sack mark.
Just for the heck of it, I've grouped them into guys that have naturally bigger bodies than Edwards (280+), guys the same size, and smaller guys (less than 250).

Bigger:
Marrio Williams - 2 years to reach double digit sacks
Julius Peppers - 1 year
Osi Umenyiora - 3 years

Smaller:
Aaron Schoebel - 3 years
Robert Mathis - 2 years

Same body type:
Jared Allen - 2 years
John Abraham - 2 years
Aaron Kampman - 5 years
Justin Tuck - 3 years
Patrick Kerney - 3 years
Dwight Freeney - 1 year
Vanden Bosch - 5 years
Derrick Burgess - 5 years

So, there are plenty of guys that take awhile to peak.
It's not just the two I mentioned.
Again, I wouldn't take even odds on Edwards becoming that type of player.
But the chances are probably orders of magnitude better than you marrying Jessica Alba.


ONLY BECAUSE SHE'S ALREADY MARRIED!!!.. lol!!...

Good post!!.. I also think he can become a decent player, esp. on our line.. and it could take some time for him to get there.. but in all honesty, I think we've about seen what he is capable of.. of course there won't be another Reggie White... but edwards is decent and a very good player...

but honestly
those guys are elite players... ray ray can be good.. but to be optomistic he can be a pro-bowl player, i'm just not sure...

bleedpurple
01-15-2009, 03:27 PM
"V" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


Interesting stuff, V.

"V" wrote:


2. I understand your argument, but I did not see this wearing down that would lead to this argument in the first place. I did not see Edwards' play suffer. With that in mind, putting him in for specific situations would not increase his performance, but it would hinder it, because you are giving him less chances to make plays. I recall Allen saying he likes to play every down and one of the reasons is that he can set his opponent up for different moves at different times.

This is interesting.
There's certainly a balance that is different for different players.
You have some Jared Allens and some Lance Johnstones.
Maybe, especially as his career goes on, Ray Edwards will prove to be much more of a Jared Allen


3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.



That'd be pretty gol 'darnit nice huh, plus we'd have Udeze behind him.


not a chance he develops into that... if your gonna be a dominant pass rusher, chances are we'd seen it fro him by now... those guys you mentined are elite players... edwards garnered what? 5-6 sacks playing next to 3 pro-bowlers on the Dline.. noway he turns into anybody other than ray edwards the guy who gets us anywhere from 5-7 sacks a season and plays decent run D

He has gotten better every year. What makes you think he has hit a plateau?

If Udeze can return to 2007 form, that will be pretty special. Like I said before having these two is a win-win situation.


i agree.. i like udeze better.. but to be overly optomistic that he's going to develop into an elite player is just that overly optimisitc... just my opinion!!

V-Unit
01-15-2009, 03:50 PM
"Overlord" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"V" wrote:




...

3. No it doesn't matter, except when you deny it when trying to declare him a run-stopper. He was touted as a pass rush specialist, that's just a fact. I agree, Udeze is a solid all around player, but maybe Edwards will grow into a Reggie White if we give him the chance.

I can't pass this up.
Ray Edwards will never grow into a Reggie White.
It'd be awesome, but it's not going to happen.

My optimistic upside on the guy is more of a Justin Tuck or even Michael Strahan.



That'd be pretty gol 'darnit nice huh, plus we'd have Udeze behind him.


not a chance he develops into that... if your gonna be a dominant pass rusher, chances are we'd seen it fro him by now... those guys you mentined are elite players... edwards garnered what? 5-6 sacks playing next to 3 pro-bowlers on the Dline.. noway he turns into anybody other than ray edwards the guy who gets us anywhere from 5-7 sacks a season and plays decent run D


I'm not so sure.
Obviously the chance of him developing into that kind of player isn't great, but that's where 'optimism' and 'upside' come in.
But there is a chance.

Take a look at Strahan's career (link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/StraMi02.htm)).
The guy totaled 18 sacks over his first four years while starting 46 games.
It was in his fifth season that he took off, finally reaching double digits with 14 sacks.

Justin Tuck couldn't even find his way on the field his first two years.
The past two years he's had double digit sack numbers (link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TuckJu20.htm)).

Not everybody develops that way, or pass rushing defensive ends would be a dime a dozen.
But a man can dream.


I can dream i have $20 million dollars and Jessica Alba as my wife too.... but i'm not posting that, or spouting it off like that's a possiblity!!..

oh, wait!!! i just did!!!

;D


i understand your point.. but I just dont see it happening... i think Udeze, for some reason has a better chance at becoming a dominant end rusher than edwards, if he can stay healthy!


I see what you're getting at, but I really don't think I'm just being silly by posting this.
I'll step back through the context and then give you some more statistical evidence here.

First, I was replying to V's comment that he hoped Edwards could become another Reggie White (which was in response to my comment that not everyone is Reggie White).
I was pointing out my strong belief that Edwards will never be that good.
The reasoning is this: he simply doesn't have the physical tools.
Reggie White was 291 pounds, strong as a bull, and fast.
Anyone that can lift Korey Stringer off the ground with a forearm shiver is no average man, even in NFL terms.
His physical dominance was reflected in his stats.
In 15 years, he only had three seasons with less than ten sacks, and had three consecutive seasons with 18 or more early in his career.
But more than just sacks, look at his tackle numbers.
He went over 100 four times.
That's ridiculous for a defensive end.
Consider that none of Julius Peppers, Jared Allen, Mario Williams, or Michael Strahan ever have gone over 66 in one year.
Here's White's stats if you want to take a look: link (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WhitRe00.htm).

So I don't believe Edwards can ever do that.
But I was also trying to point out what I think of his upper bound, based on his physical abilities and performance thus far.
He reminded me of Tuck and Strahan in both body type and performance in their early years.
Those are the stats above.

And here's a very simple look at some of the better pass rushing defensive ends in the game recently.
The list isn't exhaustive, and is only 4-3 guys.
The number next to them is the number of seasons it took for them to reach the double digit sack mark.
Just for the heck of it, I've grouped them into guys that have naturally bigger bodies than Edwards (280+), guys the same size, and smaller guys (less than 250).

Bigger:
Marrio Williams - 2 years to reach double digit sacks
Julius Peppers - 1 year
Osi Umenyiora - 3 years

Smaller:
Aaron Schoebel - 3 years
Robert Mathis - 2 years

Same body type:
Jared Allen - 2 years
John Abraham - 2 years
Aaron Kampman - 5 years
Justin Tuck - 3 years
Patrick Kerney - 3 years
Dwight Freeney - 1 year
Vanden Bosch - 5 years
Derrick Burgess - 5 years

So, there are plenty of guys that take awhile to peak.
It's not just the two I mentioned.
Again, I wouldn't take even odds on Edwards becoming that type of player.
But the chances are probably orders of magnitude better than you marrying Jessica Alba.


All of those guys are RDEs. The LDE's role is different, he has to be respsonsible for stopping the run, so his sack numbers will be deflated. If Ray was allowed to get after the passer on every down, like Allen is, he might have reached the double digit sack mark already.

Duh.

Overlord
01-15-2009, 04:26 PM
"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


Bigger:
Marrio Williams - 2 years to reach double digit sacks
Julius Peppers - 1 year
Osi Umenyiora - 3 years

Smaller:
Aaron Schoebel - 3 years
Robert Mathis - 2 years

Same body type:
Jared Allen - 2 years
John Abraham - 2 years
Aaron Kampman - 5 years
Justin Tuck - 3 years
Patrick Kerney - 3 years
Dwight Freeney - 1 year
Vanden Bosch - 5 years
Derrick Burgess - 5 years


All of those guys are RDEs. The LDE's role is different, he has to be respsonsible for stopping the run, so his sack numbers will be deflated. If Ray was allowed to get after the passer on every down, like Allen is, he might have reached the double digit sack mark already.

Duh.


I'm not sure whether he would have 10 sacks or not on the right side, and I agree that the responsibilities are different.

But Robert Mathis, Aaron Kampman, and Patrick Kerney are all left defensive ends.
Julius Peppers only switched to the right side this year.
Kyle Vanden Bosch has been back and forth in his career.

Yfz01
01-15-2009, 04:38 PM
This might sound crazy but I don't like the way we sub players all that much.
Of course I like getting Robison in for Phat Pat but I think whoever starts the drive should finish it and not just on the defensive line but running back as well.
It works great for the Panthers to put in Stewart during one full drive and DeAngelo for the next few.
The Vikings should do that with Peterson and Taylor(except on third downs, we need Taylor)

It takes a while for players to get into the game and if they get yanked after one play, chances are they won't get in that comfort zone.


Robison is my favorite defensive end though(other then Allen).
The guy is really athletic and is pretty good against the run.
The problems i've noticed are missing the sack when he has the QB in his grasp and being more prone to give up a big screen play then any other DE on the roster.
Allen is the best all around defensive end i've watched this year and Edwards is really stout against the run as well(probably not as stout as Udeze though)

V-Unit
01-15-2009, 05:17 PM
"Overlord" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


Bigger:
Marrio Williams - 2 years to reach double digit sacks
Julius Peppers - 1 year
Osi Umenyiora - 3 years

Smaller:
Aaron Schoebel - 3 years
Robert Mathis - 2 years

Same body type:
Jared Allen - 2 years
John Abraham - 2 years
Aaron Kampman - 5 years
Justin Tuck - 3 years
Patrick Kerney - 3 years
Dwight Freeney - 1 year
Vanden Bosch - 5 years
Derrick Burgess - 5 years


All of those guys are RDEs. The LDE's role is different, he has to be respsonsible for stopping the run, so his sack numbers will be deflated. If Ray was allowed to get after the passer on every down, like Allen is, he might have reached the double digit sack mark already.

Duh.


I'm not sure whether he would have 10 sacks or not on the right side, and I agree that the responsibilities are different.

But Robert Mathis, Aaron Kampman, and Patrick Kerney are all left defensive ends.
Julius Peppers only switched to the right side this year.
Kyle Vanden Bosch has been back and forth in his career.


My point exactly.

That's why justifying Udeze's zero-sack year by saying he was an LDE is pretty rediculous.

I was being sarcastic in my previous post if you couldn't tell.

umaguma1979
01-15-2009, 08:55 PM
I think if Udeze can come back, he is walking into a good situation.
He might have been the best End the Vikes had since he was drafted, but now the position has been significantly upgraded.
Competition and the desire to suceed will bring out his best.

Marrdro
01-16-2009, 10:56 AM
"umaguma1979" wrote:


I think if Udeze can come back, he is walking into a good situation.
He might have been the best End the Vikes had since he was drafted, but now the position has been significantly upgraded.
Competition and the desire to suceed will bring out his best.

Exactly, and to think otherwise is pretty rediculous.... :o
:o
;D

V4L
01-16-2009, 11:08 AM
Udeze when healthy is better then Ray

I hope one of these 2 guys can emerge into a pass rush specialist.. They each can tally 5 sacks a year and play super run D.. One of them will push it and be able to get around 10 in a year or 2

Robison will spell and we wont lose much in the pass rush when he is in.. I personally don't think he would make it in the NFL as a full time starter like most think he can and will

singersp
02-06-2009, 08:23 AM
Kenechi Udeze on track for OTAs with Minnesota Vikings (http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_11640452?source=rss)

By Rick Alonzo and Sean Jensen
Pioneer Press
Posted: 02/05/2009 12:01:00 AM CST


Vikings defensive end Kenechi Udeze is expected to participate in the first organized team activities this spring, coach Brad Childress said....

CCthebest
02-07-2009, 10:28 AM
It will be completely different for Udeze now with JA.

VikingsTw
02-07-2009, 12:15 PM
Man if Udeze gets to start right away in OTA's his chances of coming back and making an impact are better than ever. I've said it before but previous his sickness he was playing at an all time high. He's a straight beast in the run game, with Pat, Kevin, Jared, EJ, Greenway, T Johson, Madiu, Winny, and Griffin nobody is going to run on this defense, period.

He also had some good years in QB Hurries, Ray Edwards also did the same last year. This competition is going to be great, you gotta love it. Let the best man win, I'm not going to discount Udeze from being the starter, he's done some things in his life that are pretty amazing, he's got a good concious.

VikingMike
02-07-2009, 12:29 PM
"singersp" wrote:


Kenechi Udeze on track for OTAs with Minnesota Vikings (http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_11640452?source=rss)

By Rick Alonzo and Sean Jensen
Pioneer Press
Posted: 02/05/2009 12:01:00 AM CST


Vikings defensive end Kenechi Udeze is expected to participate in the first organized team activities this spring, coach Brad Childress said....





That is fantastic news...we can sure use another big healthy body on the line. If he progresses and is strong enough to play, I can see him and Ray getting a lot of reps in '09. Really happy to hear this...I'll stay optimistic for now.

Marrdro
02-07-2009, 12:29 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


Man if Udeze gets to start right away in OTA's his chances of coming back and making an impact are better than ever. I've said it before but previous his sickness he was playing at an all time high. He's a straight beast in the run game, with Pat, Kevin, Jared, EJ, Greenway, T Johson, Madiu, Winny, and Griffin nobody is going to run on this defense, period.

He also had some good years in QB Hurries, Ray Edwards also did the same last year. This competition is going to be great, you gotta love it. Let the best man win, I'm not going to discount Udeze from being the starter, he's done some things in his life that are pretty amazing, he's got a good concious.

Excellent post.

Not sure why everyone worries so much about sack numbers from the LDE side.
I for one am truly stoked to see a line like this next year:

RDE

JA

ROBISON
DT

K-WILL
Evans
Guion
DT

Phat Pat
Kennedy
LDE
Keneche
Ray

Draft Raji or Peria if one of them falls to us (and we still have our first round pick)

Let Otis and Jayme fight it out for the last DE spot.

Even ole Leslie couldn't screw up using a bunch of cats like that in waves.......

V4L
02-08-2009, 12:27 AM
Leslie is the shit

singersp
02-08-2009, 08:27 AM
"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


Bigger:
Marrio Williams - 2 years to reach double digit sacks
Julius Peppers - 1 year
Osi Umenyiora - 3 years

Smaller:
Aaron Schoebel - 3 years
Robert Mathis - 2 years

Same body type:
Jared Allen - 2 years
John Abraham - 2 years
Aaron Kampman - 5 years
Justin Tuck - 3 years
Patrick Kerney - 3 years
Dwight Freeney - 1 year
Vanden Bosch - 5 years
Derrick Burgess - 5 years


All of those guys are RDEs. The LDE's role is different, he has to be respsonsible for stopping the run, so his sack numbers will be deflated. If Ray was allowed to get after the passer on every down, like Allen is, he might have reached the double digit sack mark already.

Duh.


I'm not sure whether he would have 10 sacks or not on the right side, and I agree that the responsibilities are different.

But Robert Mathis, Aaron Kampman, and Patrick Kerney are all left defensive ends.
Julius Peppers only switched to the right side this year.
Kyle Vanden Bosch has been back and forth in his career.


My point exactly.

That's why justifying Udeze's zero-sack year by saying he was an LDE is pretty rediculous.

I was being sarcastic in my previous post if you couldn't tell.


How many of those players led the team with the most tackles for a loss at the LDE position?

That is what Udeze did in 2006, despite,not officially recording any sacks.

The problem is, most people here don't look at those types of stats when evaluating DE's, they look at sacks & sacks only. Containing the run is the primary function of the LDE's job.

To discredit Udeze for all those tackles for a loss is laughable.

triedandtruevikesfan
02-08-2009, 11:54 AM
"singersp" wrote:


Kenechi Udeze on track for OTAs with Minnesota Vikings (http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_11640452?source=rss)

By Rick Alonzo and Sean Jensen
Pioneer Press
Posted: 02/05/2009 12:01:00 AM CST


Vikings defensive end Kenechi Udeze is expected to participate in the first organized team activities this spring, coach Brad Childress said....




Thats fantastic news.
It'll be nice to have him and EJ back.

CCthebest
02-09-2009, 08:46 AM
"V4L" wrote:


Leslie is the pooh

Man i think i disagree with everythng you post. Leslie wasnt treally that great last year and certin players wearnt able to preform they way they do it best.

V-Unit
02-09-2009, 11:13 AM
"singersp" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


Bigger:
Marrio Williams - 2 years to reach double digit sacks
Julius Peppers - 1 year
Osi Umenyiora - 3 years

Smaller:
Aaron Schoebel - 3 years
Robert Mathis - 2 years

Same body type:
Jared Allen - 2 years
John Abraham - 2 years
Aaron Kampman - 5 years
Justin Tuck - 3 years
Patrick Kerney - 3 years
Dwight Freeney - 1 year
Vanden Bosch - 5 years
Derrick Burgess - 5 years


All of those guys are RDEs. The LDE's role is different, he has to be respsonsible for stopping the run, so his sack numbers will be deflated. If Ray was allowed to get after the passer on every down, like Allen is, he might have reached the double digit sack mark already.

Duh.


I'm not sure whether he would have 10 sacks or not on the right side, and I agree that the responsibilities are different.

But Robert Mathis, Aaron Kampman, and Patrick Kerney are all left defensive ends.
Julius Peppers only switched to the right side this year.
Kyle Vanden Bosch has been back and forth in his career.


My point exactly.

That's why justifying Udeze's zero-sack year by saying he was an LDE is pretty rediculous.

I was being sarcastic in my previous post if you couldn't tell.


How many of those players led the team with the most tackles for a loss at the LDE position?

That is what Udeze did in 2006, despite,not officially recording any sacks.

The problem is, most people here don't look at those types of stats when evaluating DE's, they look at sacks & sacks only. Containing the run is the primary function of the LDE's job.

To discredit Udeze for all those tackles for a loss is laughable.


Sure, but arguing that an LDE is not supposed to generate sacks is also laughable.

NodakPaul
02-09-2009, 11:41 AM
"V" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


"V" wrote:




Bigger:
Marrio Williams - 2 years to reach double digit sacks
Julius Peppers - 1 year
Osi Umenyiora - 3 years

Smaller:
Aaron Schoebel - 3 years
Robert Mathis - 2 years

Same body type:
Jared Allen - 2 years
John Abraham - 2 years
Aaron Kampman - 5 years
Justin Tuck - 3 years
Patrick Kerney - 3 years
Dwight Freeney - 1 year
Vanden Bosch - 5 years
Derrick Burgess - 5 years


All of those guys are RDEs. The LDE's role is different, he has to be respsonsible for stopping the run, so his sack numbers will be deflated. If Ray was allowed to get after the passer on every down, like Allen is, he might have reached the double digit sack mark already.

Duh.


I'm not sure whether he would have 10 sacks or not on the right side, and I agree that the responsibilities are different.

But Robert Mathis, Aaron Kampman, and Patrick Kerney are all left defensive ends.
Julius Peppers only switched to the right side this year.
Kyle Vanden Bosch has been back and forth in his career.


My point exactly.

That's why justifying Udeze's zero-sack year by saying he was an LDE is pretty rediculous.

I was being sarcastic in my previous post if you couldn't tell.


How many of those players led the team with the most tackles for a loss at the LDE position?

That is what Udeze did in 2006, despite,not officially recording any sacks.

The problem is, most people here don't look at those types of stats when evaluating DE's, they look at sacks & sacks only. Containing the run is the primary function of the LDE's job.

To discredit Udeze for all those tackles for a loss is laughable.


Sure, but arguing that an LDE is not supposed to generate sacks is also laughable.


It isn't so much that he is not supposed to generate sacks.
Instead, it is not his first priority.
LDE's first job is run stop, second is containment, and third is sack the QB.

Udeze did his job well.

V4L
02-09-2009, 11:45 AM
It;s actually both DE's jobs to stop the run first

If you just had your ends fly by each play there would be too many running lanes to pick from

The thing about a good DE is they can sniff out a run or not over persue a play and get in there for a sack.. Udeze is a good run stopper.. And below average to decent at applying pressure and that's it

Of course I know he was doing his first job in stopping the run so he got zero sacks.. But to go 16 games and countless snaps and not even get a coverage sack? I mean come on there is a problem no matter what side u play on and are comfortable with

He moved back to his original and played decent.. Got a few sacks, and hopefully he can build off that

I support him 100 percent and when healthy actually prefer him over Edwards.. I just don't think that just because he played LDE all he had to do was stop the run

i_bleed_purple
02-09-2009, 11:50 AM
"V4L" wrote:


It;s actually both DE's jobs to stop the run first

If you just had your ends fly by each play there would be too many running lanes to pick from

The thing about a good DE is they can sniff out a run or not over persue a play and get in there for a sack.. Udeze is a good run stopper.. And below average to decent at applying pressure and that's it

Of course I know he was doing his first job in stopping the run so he got zero sacks.. But to go 16 games and countless snaps and not even get a coverage sack? I mean come on there is a problem no matter what side u play on and are comfortable with

He moved back to his original and played decent.. Got a few sacks, and hopefully he can build off that

I support him 100 percent and when healthy actually prefer him over Edwards.. I just don't think that just because he played LDE all he had to do was stop the run


And, just like every other position, it depends on the scheme called.
Some systems, like Philly's blitz scheme, will call for the LDE to do different things.
Javon Kearse was very successful as a LDE in getting pressure and getting sacks, likely because some plays would call for him to rush the passer while a linebacker would take his run duties, others would call for him to go run first, while a linebacker blitzes in his place.


Look at Carolina, Julius peppers was hugely successful as a LDE in generating pressure, you can't tell me that a majority of his plays aren't designed to get him after the QB.

V4L
02-09-2009, 11:58 AM
Yah that's
true man all depends on the scheme

Decent ends no matter what scheme can stop the run and generate a little pressure

Good ends can stop the run and get some sacks

Great ends can stop the run and tally 10+ sacks

PackSux!
02-09-2009, 08:04 PM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


It;s actually both DE's jobs to stop the run first

If you just had your ends fly by each play there would be too many running lanes to pick from

The thing about a good DE is they can sniff out a run or not over persue a play and get in there for a sack.. Udeze is a good run stopper.. And below average to decent at applying pressure and that's it

Of course I know he was doing his first job in stopping the run so he got zero sacks.. But to go 16 games and countless snaps and not even get a coverage sack? I mean come on there is a problem no matter what side u play on and are comfortable with

He moved back to his original and played decent.. Got a few sacks, and hopefully he can build off that

I support him 100 percent and when healthy actually prefer him over Edwards.. I just don't think that just because he played LDE all he had to do was stop the run


And, just like every other position, it depends on the scheme called.
Some systems, like Philly's blitz scheme, will call for the LDE to do different things.
Javon Kearse was very successful as a LDE in getting pressure and getting sacks, likely because some plays would call for him to rush the passer while a linebacker would take his run duties, others would call for him to go run first, while a linebacker blitzes in his place.


Look at Carolina, Julius peppers was hugely successful as a LDE in generating pressure, you can't tell me that a majority of his plays aren't designed to get him after the QB.

Show the stats.
Peppers plays on the right side.

Don't you remember how worried we were in week three when Hicks had to block Peppers?
Hicks did a great job btw

Remember that you are facing the ball.

V-Unit
02-10-2009, 09:18 AM
"V4L" wrote:


Yah that's
true man all depends on the scheme

Decent ends no matter what scheme can stop the run and generate a little pressure

Good ends can stop the run and get some sacks

Great ends can stop the run and tally 10+ sacks



By those standards, Udeze is a decent LDE, and Ray is a good one. It depends on talent level just as much as it does the scheme. Schemes are created based on talent.

jessejames09
02-10-2009, 09:36 AM
"PackSux!" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


It;s actually both DE's jobs to stop the run first

If you just had your ends fly by each play there would be too many running lanes to pick from

The thing about a good DE is they can sniff out a run or not over persue a play and get in there for a sack.. Udeze is a good run stopper.. And below average to decent at applying pressure and that's it

Of course I know he was doing his first job in stopping the run so he got zero sacks.. But to go 16 games and countless snaps and not even get a coverage sack? I mean come on there is a problem no matter what side u play on and are comfortable with

He moved back to his original and played decent.. Got a few sacks, and hopefully he can build off that

I support him 100 percent and when healthy actually prefer him over Edwards.. I just don't think that just because he played LDE all he had to do was stop the run


And, just like every other position, it depends on the scheme called.
Some systems, like Philly's blitz scheme, will call for the LDE to do different things.
Javon Kearse was very successful as a LDE in getting pressure and getting sacks, likely because some plays would call for him to rush the passer while a linebacker would take his run duties, others would call for him to go run first, while a linebacker blitzes in his place.


Look at Carolina, Julius peppers was hugely successful as a LDE in generating pressure, you can't tell me that a majority of his plays aren't designed to get him after the QB.

Show the stats.
Peppers plays on the right side.

Don't you remember how worried we were in week three when Hicks had to block Peppers?
Hicks did a great job btw

Remember that you are facing the ball.


This was his first year on the right. He was always a LE until recently.

peterson-rox28
05-01-2009, 05:40 PM
Does anyone know the latest on the udeze situation?

cogitans
05-02-2009, 06:25 AM
As far as I know he were finishing his degree at USC this offseason, and plan to attend training camp this year.

jessejames09
05-02-2009, 08:00 AM
Am I the only one who's excited to see what Udeze will bring back to the table? He overcame his cancer and is back in the NFL in under a year, that's a fighter. The thing we aren't all talking about is what a beast he was season before last, and in my eyes he was starting to come into his own. I'm just really pumped to have Udeze back, as a football player.

cogitans
05-02-2009, 08:20 AM
"jessejames09" wrote:


Am I the only one who's excited to see what Udeze will bring back to the table? He overcame his cancer and is back in the NFL in under a year, that's a fighter. The thing we aren't all talking about is what a beast he was season before last, and in my eyes he was starting to come into his own. I'm just really pumped to have Udeze back, as a football player.
Nope, you're not alone. I for one am excited too.

I'm not getting my hopes or expectations up though, as noone can tell what it takes to come back from an illness like that.

I hope the best for KU though, and I really wish for him to be a part of the team.

vikeswin2005
05-02-2009, 08:51 AM
"jessejames09" wrote:


Am I the only one who's excited to see what Udeze will bring back to the table? He overcame his cancer and is back in the NFL in under a year, that's a fighter. The thing we aren't all talking about is what a beast he was season before last, and in my eyes he was starting to come into his own. I'm just really pumped to have Udeze back, as a football player.


It was Leukemia
;)

mountainviking
05-02-2009, 11:41 AM
I'm right with you with high hopes for Udeze!!
I see it like getting an extra first round pick this year if he's able to come back and contribute.
With our, "Wave Rushing System" whether he starts or not isn't an issue, either way he adds high end talent to the depth of our DL.
He also has some experience playing DT, and could possibly contribute there on passing downs as well.
Potentially, our version of the Giants' Justin Tuck.

Sweet highlight video on his page at nfl.com...Edwards comes from the right and pulls on Kitna's jersey just as he throws, Kenechi intercepts the ball
;D

http://www.nfl.com/players/kenechiudeze/profile?id=UDE800920

nephilimstorm
05-02-2009, 11:49 AM
I amsoglad he is doing so good. Welcome Back, Udeze.

DiehardVikesFan
05-02-2009, 12:18 PM
"mountainviking" wrote:


I'm right with you with high hopes for Udeze!!
I see it like getting an extra first round pick this year if he's able to come back and contribute.
With our, "Wave Rushing System" whether he starts or not isn't an issue, either way he adds high end talent to the depth of our DL.
He also has some experience playing DT, and could possibly contribute there on passing downs as well.
Potentially, our version of the Giants' Justin Tuck.

Sweet highlight video on his page at nfl.com...Edwards comes from the right and pulls on Kitna's jersey just as he throws, Kenechi intercepts the ball
;D

http://www.nfl.com/players/kenechiudeze/profile?id=UDE800920


I was thinking the same thing depending on what his weight is like right now.

Ranger
05-02-2009, 01:37 PM
He's been a beast since college, I'm sure he'll be back to form before too long.
If they work him in gradually, he can be a difference maker.

With him getting back to full strength (assuming around mid-season) and EJ back, our already nasty defense is going to make quarterbacks wake up in cold sweats.

peterson-rox28
05-02-2009, 02:41 PM
"Ranger" wrote:


He's been a beast since college, I'm sure he'll be back to form before too long.
If they work him in gradually, he can be a difference maker.

With him getting back to full strength (assuming around mid-season) and EJ back, our already nasty defense is going to make quarterbacks wake up in cold sweats.

+1 our defense is scary good. I think we are in the same league now as the steelers and ravens defense!!!

ThorSPL
05-02-2009, 03:40 PM
"vikeswin2005" wrote:


"jessejames09" wrote:


Am I the only one who's excited to see what Udeze will bring back to the table? He overcame his cancer and is back in the NFL in under a year, that's a fighter. The thing we aren't all talking about is what a beast he was season before last, and in my eyes he was starting to come into his own. I'm just really pumped to have Udeze back, as a football player.


It was Leukemia
;)


Isn't Leukemia a form of cancer?

snowinapril
05-02-2009, 03:41 PM
"ThorSPL" wrote:


"vikeswin2005" wrote:


"jessejames09" wrote:


Am I the only one who's excited to see what Udeze will bring back to the table? He overcame his cancer and is back in the NFL in under a year, that's a fighter. The thing we aren't all talking about is what a beast he was season before last, and in my eyes he was starting to come into his own. I'm just really pumped to have Udeze back, as a football player.


It was Leukemia
;)


Isn't Leukemia a form of cancer?


Your'e the Dr!

:D

I am not but I think it is a form of bone cancer!

singersp
05-02-2009, 03:42 PM
"ThorSPL" wrote:


"vikeswin2005" wrote:


"jessejames09" wrote:


Am I the only one who's excited to see what Udeze will bring back to the table? He overcame his cancer and is back in the NFL in under a year, that's a fighter. The thing we aren't all talking about is what a beast he was season before last, and in my eyes he was starting to come into his own. I'm just really pumped to have Udeze back, as a football player.


It was Leukemia
;)


Isn't Leukemia a form of cancer?


Yes

http://ezinearticles.com/?What-is-Leukemia?&id=469624

cogitans
05-02-2009, 03:43 PM
"ThorSPL" wrote:


"vikeswin2005" wrote:


"jessejames09" wrote:


Am I the only one who's excited to see what Udeze will bring back to the table? He overcame his cancer and is back in the NFL in under a year, that's a fighter. The thing we aren't all talking about is what a beast he was season before last, and in my eyes he was starting to come into his own. I'm just really pumped to have Udeze back, as a football player.


It was Leukemia
;)


Isn't Leukemia a form of cancer?

Leukemia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leukemia)

Leukemia (British English: leukaemia) (Greek leukos ??????, "white"; aima ????, "blood") is a cancer of the blood or bone marrow and is characterized by an abnormal proliferation (production by multiplication) of blood cells, usually white blood cells (leukocytes).

ThorSPL
05-02-2009, 03:46 PM
That answers the question.... I thought it was cancer of the blood but I also knew there was the bone marrow donor stuff going on, so that all kinda makes sense!

I'm the Psychologist - you wanna know about behavior - ask me..... the medical stuff I have to ask my wife!