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View Full Version : Cover 2 - Yes or No



thorshammer
10-24-2008, 09:09 PM
What are everyone's thoughts on our cover 2 defence .... It seems a lot of teams using it are having problems as well. It was all the rage but the teams that can play agressive man up seem to be doing better. Wondering what the rest of you think??

ultravikingfan
10-24-2008, 09:26 PM
When you do not have the proper athletes (not as good) you go Zone.
When you have good DB's you go man.

Mr Anderson
10-24-2008, 09:39 PM
I like the cover 2.

I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.

jessejames09
10-24-2008, 09:44 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:


When you do not have the proper athletes (not as good) you go Zone.
When you have good DB's you go man.


So the vikings, colts, bucs, bears draft bad CBs to fit their zone schemes? Or they all misuse their good CBs in weaker zone schemes?

thorshammer
10-24-2008, 09:49 PM
"Mr" wrote:


I like the cover 2.

I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.


Have to agree with you completely ... that little disruption to the opposing QB's timing would make our D much more effective. Our D line would get there and it might cause some rushed errant throws. Often wondered why we don't press more often.... things that make you go hmmmmm.....

Freakout
10-24-2008, 10:11 PM
Dislike it.


We've always criticized our pass rush but I don't think that is our problem.
We make it easy for a QB to process through his reads.
Hardly any pressure at all on receivers to get open against us.
Often all our pass rushers would need is a second more of more time.
Instead we give players 10 yard cushions.

Chazz
10-24-2008, 10:39 PM
I would like to see us play a little man coverage with cover 2 behind it...meaning...have Winny and Griff play man and keep Sharper and Williams/Johnson in the cover 2 shell behind them to stop the big play if Whinny or Griff were to get beat.

ultravikingfan
10-24-2008, 10:42 PM
"jessejames09" wrote:


"ultravikingfan" wrote:


When you do not have the proper athletes (not as good) you go Zone.
When you have good DB's you go man.


So the vikings, colts, bucs, bears draft bad CBs to fit their zone schemes? Or they all misuse their good CBs in weaker zone schemes?


Did I say anything about players being bad?

The Bears do run Man coverage when all their players are healthy.

PackSux!
10-24-2008, 11:13 PM
Linebackers are very important in the cover two.

Ranger
10-25-2008, 02:41 AM
Well, look at the Bucs right now.
They seem to be doing just fine, despite a fairly "meh" pass rush.
They tore apart Seattle by using creative blitz calls, sending corners and safeties in and generally disrupting Seattle.

Purple Floyd
10-25-2008, 08:18 AM
"Mr" wrote:


I like the cover 2.

I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.


I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.

Mr Anderson
10-25-2008, 08:43 AM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


I like the cover 2.

I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.


I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.


Give up a home run?

In the cover 2, the safety gives up the home run, they cover deep halves, corners play the short zone.
http://rpongett.phpwebhosting.com/Cover2.jpg

IMO they both definitely have the speed to jam at the line and then get back into their zone, but that doesn't really take much speed. Press coverage will naturally take them into their zone. There's no reason not to take advantage of the 5 yard WR contact rule.

Purple Floyd
10-25-2008, 09:12 AM
"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


I like the cover 2.

I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.


I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.


Give up a home run?

In the cover 2, the safety gives up the home run, they cover deep halves, corners play the short zone.
http://rpongett.phpwebhosting.com/Cover2.jpg

IMO they both definitely have the speed to jam at the line and then get back into their zone, but that doesn't really take much speed. Press coverage will naturally take them into their zone. There's no reason not to take advantage of the 5 yard WR contact rule.


I understand that the safety has the deep responsibility, but what happens when the offense sends another WR to that zone? Then the safety has to choose between the player coming into his zone that was just released by the LB or to cover the WR that just got past the CB. Correct? Obviously you can draw up a chart to show how things work in theory, but as you also know the offensive coaches are working on ways to counter that theory and either cause a breakdown in coverage or to create a mismatch.

jessejames09
10-25-2008, 11:23 AM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


I like the cover 2.

I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.


I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.


Give up a home run?

In the cover 2, the safety gives up the home run, they cover deep halves, corners play the short zone.
http://rpongett.phpwebhosting.com/Cover2.jpg

IMO they both definitely have the speed to jam at the line and then get back into their zone, but that doesn't really take much speed. Press coverage will naturally take them into their zone. There's no reason not to take advantage of the 5 yard WR contact rule.


I understand that the safety has the deep responsibility, but what happens when the offense sends another WR to that zone? Then the safety has to choose between the player coming into his zone that was just released by the LB or to cover the WR that just got past the CB. Correct? Obviously you can draw up a chart to show how things work in theory, but as you also know the offensive coaches are working on ways to counter that theory and either cause a breakdown in coverage or to create a mismatch.


It's not very often 2 players go deep in the same zone. It's only really effective against the cover 2. Against the Bears we had Both WRs and Shank run go routes to take advantage of that very flaw, easy TD to Shank.

It was either a TD or it ended up on the 1 or 2, and we punched it in, I forget.

Mr Anderson
10-25-2008, 11:54 AM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


I like the cover 2.

I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.


I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.


Give up a home run?

In the cover 2, the safety gives up the home run, they cover deep halves, corners play the short zone.
http://rpongett.phpwebhosting.com/Cover2.jpg

IMO they both definitely have the speed to jam at the line and then get back into their zone, but that doesn't really take much speed. Press coverage will naturally take them into their zone. There's no reason not to take advantage of the 5 yard WR contact rule.


I understand that the safety has the deep responsibility, but what happens when the offense sends another WR to that zone? Then the safety has to choose between the player coming into his zone that was just released by the LB or to cover the WR that just got past the CB. Correct? Obviously you can draw up a chart to show how things work in theory, but as you also know the offensive coaches are working on ways to counter that theory and either cause a breakdown in coverage or to create a mismatch.


It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

Let's say they line up two receivers left.
What are their options for two home run routes?
Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.

Bleedin Purple
10-25-2008, 04:04 PM
"Chazz" wrote:


I would like to see us play a little man coverage with cover 2 behind it...meaning...have Winny and Griff play man and keep Sharper and Williams/Johnson in the cover 2 shell behind them to stop the big play if Whinny or Griff were to get beat.


Thats the 2 man press.

thorshammer
10-25-2008, 04:31 PM
Yep ... play press with the corners .... cover 2 behind it .... felt we should be doing this all season .... why hasn't the brain trust thought of this or at least tried to implement it to see what it yields.
Could be just enough to make the D more productive on the take away side.

Mr Anderson
10-25-2008, 04:35 PM
"Bleedin" wrote:


"Chazz" wrote:


I would like to see us play a little man coverage with cover 2 behind it...meaning...have Winny and Griff play man and keep Sharper and Williams/Johnson in the cover 2 shell behind them to stop the big play if Whinny or Griff were to get beat.


Thats the 2 man press.


That works well in two WR sets. But playing man at the corner(with your base personnel package) in 3+ WR sets causes serious mismatches.

Really, all that has to happen is: we get pressure(jamming at the line would allow us to apply better pressure) also those jams at the line would put our corners closer to the WR, eliminating those pesky short routes, which theoretically should be the hardest passes to complete against the cover 2(due to the 5 men playing underneath zones) and if the linebackers make proper pattern reads, we shouldn't get hit deep.

Of course that is all theoretical... but I believe we have the personnel to execute(especially with a healthy EJ Henderson.) Physical cornerbacks, safeties that can cover a lot of ground, a line that should be able to apply a ton of pressure, athletic linebackers, and a coach that came up under Tony Dungy.

Purple Floyd
10-25-2008, 04:58 PM
"Mr" wrote:






It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

Let's say they line up two receivers left.
What are their options for two home run routes?
Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.




I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.

Mr Anderson
10-25-2008, 07:34 PM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:







It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

Let's say they line up two receivers left.
What are their options for two home run routes?
Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.




I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.


To the bolded text:
Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.

ultravikingfan
10-25-2008, 11:12 PM
"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:







It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

Let's say they line up two receivers left.
What are their options for two home run routes?
Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.




I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.


To the bolded text:
Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.





Bolding text in a quote does not work anymore.
Change the color instead.

Mr Anderson
10-25-2008, 11:15 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:







It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

Let's say they line up two receivers left.
What are their options for two home run routes?
Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.




I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.


To the bolded text:
Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.





Bolding text in a quote does not work anymore.
Change the color instead.


Really? Too bad. Did you change the color for me? The paragraph about Deion and Darrell Green actually looks bold, and the one below red.

Thanks for the heads-up.

ultravikingfan
10-25-2008, 11:27 PM
I changed the color to red.

CCthebest
10-26-2008, 01:38 AM
It sure hasnt been working so far. Stopping the run hasnt done anything for us either.

We dont have good enough cover CBs to do man, our safties suck, LBs cant cover my grandma, and we dont get enough pressure for the Cover 2 to work.

singersp
10-26-2008, 02:01 AM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:



Bolding text in a quote does not work anymore.
Change the color instead.


Yes it does.
I can see it bold ;)

Purple Floyd
10-26-2008, 10:23 AM
"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:







It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

Let's say they line up two receivers left.
What are their options for two home run routes?
Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.




I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.


To the bolded text:
Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.





And you are saying our guys have the ability to play the press perfectly? I would like to believe that, but I don't. Hopefully I will be proven wrong.

And your scenarios certainly work if everybody does their job to perfection. Of course we all know that our secondary has been anything but perfect for a long time in knowing their responsibilities and sticking to them, which is why I feel they always play so far off the line. The staff feels it is better to give up 8 yards than 80. You can map out scenarios all day long, but if the players are not put in the right position, make the wrong reads or react too slowly all of those scenarios go right out the door.

So yes, I agree 100% with your theories on how things should work, my disagreement comes from separating the theory from the reality of what we have and what the unit has done historically for quite a long time.

Mr Anderson
10-26-2008, 11:35 AM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:







It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

Let's say they line up two receivers left.
What are their options for two home run routes?
Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.




I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.


To the bolded text:
Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.





And you are saying our guys have the ability to play the press perfectly? I would like to believe that, but I don't. Hopefully I will be proven wrong.

And your scenarios certainly work if everybody does their job to perfection. Of course we all know that our secondary has been anything but perfect for a long time in knowing their responsibilities and sticking to them, which is why I feel they always play so far off the line. The staff feels it is better to give up 8 yards than 80. You can map out scenarios all day long, but if the players are not put in the right position, make the wrong reads or react too slowly all of those scenarios go right out the door.

So yes, I agree 100% with your theories on how things should work, my disagreement comes from separating the theory from the reality of what we have and what the unit has done historically for quite a long time.

Nobody's perfect, but I think we have a set of corners better suited to play the press than anyone. We all know how physical Winfield is, and Griffin is a big corner and 7th in the NFL in solo tackles.

And IMO, to get this team from theory to reality we need to jam at the line.

Disrupt their timing, and your own little mistakes matter a lot less.

V4L
10-26-2008, 11:51 AM
"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:







It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

Let's say they line up two receivers left.
What are their options for two home run routes?
Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.




I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.


To the bolded text:
Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.





And you are saying our guys have the ability to play the press perfectly? I would like to believe that, but I don't. Hopefully I will be proven wrong.

And your scenarios certainly work if everybody does their job to perfection. Of course we all know that our secondary has been anything but perfect for a long time in knowing their responsibilities and sticking to them, which is why I feel they always play so far off the line. The staff feels it is better to give up 8 yards than 80. You can map out scenarios all day long, but if the players are not put in the right position, make the wrong reads or react too slowly all of those scenarios go right out the door.

So yes, I agree 100% with your theories on how things should work, my disagreement comes from separating the theory from the reality of what we have and what the unit has done historically for quite a long time.

Nobody's perfect, but I think we have a set of corners better suited to play the press than anyone. We all know how physical Winfield is, and Griffin is a big corner and 7th in the NFL in solo tackles.

And IMO, to get this team from theory to reality we need to jam at the line.

Disrupt their timing, and your own little mistakes matter a lot less.



Agreed

Only thing is in my eyes issssssssssss

Yes they have the build and physicality but can they really press good? Maybe they are bad at it so we don't?

Just a thought... But I agree with ya

marstc09
10-26-2008, 12:23 PM
"Bleedin" wrote:


"Chazz" wrote:


I would like to see us play a little man coverage with cover 2 behind it...meaning...have Winny and Griff play man and keep Sharper and Williams/Johnson in the cover 2 shell behind them to stop the big play if Whinny or Griff were to get beat.


Thats the 2 man press.


That is what we should do. Cedric and Winfield are built for the press. Cedric mastered it in college and now we put him in this crap. No wonder why he looks bad.

V4L
10-26-2008, 12:25 PM
I agree with the press and cover 2 shell!!!

tastywaves
10-26-2008, 01:02 PM
"CCthebest" wrote:


It sure hasnt been working so far. Stopping the run hasnt done anything for us either.

We dont have good enough cover CBs to do man, our safties suck, LBs cant cover my grandma, and we dont get enough pressure for the Cover 2 to work.


Yea, but if we fix those little things, we are rocking on defense.... ::)

tastywaves
10-26-2008, 01:13 PM
"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:







It's not as simple as just putting two people into the same zone. The personnel required to run two legitimate deep routes in the same zone takes either two wide receivers on the same side, a 3+ wide receiver set, or some sort of motion. All of which the defense reacts to pre-play.

Let's say they line up two receivers left.
What are their options for two home run routes?
Two fly patterns? I think not, the ball is in the air for too long, the players are too close together, so the safety can make a play on that.
A fly and a very deep curl or comeback route? The safety's gonna stop the deep guy, there's probably gonna be a completion to the other man in the zone. Still no home run.
A fly and a post? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
A post and a flag? Middle linebacker picks up the post, safety picks up the fly.
If they send a TE deep on that side as well, there might be a touchdown, but it's gonna be clusterfuck on that side of the field, something no quarterback wants to throw into.



It's really difficult to "hit the homerun" on this defense, and teams very rarely do. The way to beat it is through holes in the zone between safety and corner, through intermediate routes, underneath routes, etc. Like Brady did against us two years ago, he perfectly executed how to beat the cover 2.




I don't disagree with what you are saying at all in theory. Yes, when executed right this can be a hard defense to hit the homerun on, but as we have seen for years, our secondary has given up too many plays to be a championship caliber unit and has not exactly fulfilled that theory.

You are correct that your scenarios pretty much have the WR's covered, but as you know, there are brilliant offensive coordinators that spend years of their lives figuring out ways to beat this scheme and it happens every week.

My question, if you look back, is whether either Winnie or Griff have the makeup speed to catch a defender if they make a wrong move while pressing the WR's at the line of scrimmage. Guys like Darrel Green, Deion, etc had that type of speed to get back in position. I am sure if I look it over there are some in the league now that fit that category too. But none of them play for the Vikings.

So if Griffin is pressed on a WR and gets beat at the line and the safety on that side is already covering another receiver, then who is left? That is all I am saying and that is why I feel Coordinators have always put such a big cushion between our CB's and the WR's on the majority of plays.


To the bolded text:
Darrell Green and Deion Sanders are two of the fastest players in the history of the NFL, if not the two fastest. There are tons of corners(look at the losers on the Packers) that don't have blazing speed and play the press perfectly, you just have to do it right. Of course you're going to get beat once in a while, but that's football.

And the second bolded portion: Saying the safety is already covering someone on that side implies that there was another receiver lined up there to begin with, they are going to make pre-snap reads if there are multiple receivers on one side of the field.

If there are two receivers lined up wide on one side, unless they're stacked(which you never see in the NFL) one is going to end up moving through the outside linebackers zone, he'll make his pattern read and follow him deep if he has to.

For example: let's say we have strong left, one wide out left.

Griffin gets beat by the wideout running a fly/go/9/streak, the tight end runs a deep post.

That puts two guys in the deep zone. But the linebacker knows what to do based on the pattern that TE is running, he follows him deep. That's called a pattern read.

Defense is reactionary, what the defensive coordinator calls in doesn't always work out, the players on the field must react based on the formation, and post-snap events.





And you are saying our guys have the ability to play the press perfectly? I would like to believe that, but I don't. Hopefully I will be proven wrong.

And your scenarios certainly work if everybody does their job to perfection. Of course we all know that our secondary has been anything but perfect for a long time in knowing their responsibilities and sticking to them, which is why I feel they always play so far off the line. The staff feels it is better to give up 8 yards than 80. You can map out scenarios all day long, but if the players are not put in the right position, make the wrong reads or react too slowly all of those scenarios go right out the door.

So yes, I agree 100% with your theories on how things should work, my disagreement comes from separating the theory from the reality of what we have and what the unit has done historically for quite a long time.

Nobody's perfect, but I think we have a set of corners better suited to play the press than anyone. We all know how physical Winfield is, and Griffin is a big corner and 7th in the NFL in solo tackles.

And IMO, to get this team from theory to reality we need to jam at the line.

Disrupt their timing, and your own little mistakes matter a lot less.


Good stuff Mr. A.

I think UffDa is probably right in why we don't do press coverage.
More of a conservative philosophy by the coaches where they don't want to take the chance of giving up bigger plays more often.
However, that doesn't make it the right decision.
As Childress is getting put more and more on the hot seat, you see him loosening up quite a bit and taking more gambles.
Here's another place where he can be more aggressive and try to increase the 3 and outs.
At least put it into play somewhat and see how Griffin and Winfield hold up.

Marrdro
10-26-2008, 01:22 PM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


I like the cover 2.

I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.


I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.


Give up a home run?

In the cover 2, the safety gives up the home run, they cover deep halves, corners play the short zone.
http://rpongett.phpwebhosting.com/Cover2.jpg

IMO they both definitely have the speed to jam at the line and then get back into their zone, but that doesn't really take much speed. Press coverage will naturally take them into their zone. There's no reason not to take advantage of the 5 yard WR contact rule.


I understand that the safety has the deep responsibility, but what happens when the offense sends another WR to that zone? Then the safety has to choose between the player coming into his zone that was just released by the LB or to cover the WR that just got past the CB. Correct? Obviously you can draw up a chart to show how things work in theory, but as you also know the offensive coaches are working on ways to counter that theory and either cause a breakdown in coverage or to create a mismatch.

Of course Mr. A is talking about a standard WR set.
You are talking about adding more WR's.
When that happens we counter with more CB's.

Apples and oranges my friend.

Marrdro
10-26-2008, 01:29 PM
I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.
;D

V4L
10-26-2008, 01:33 PM
I have rarely seen press this year

Do you even get to watch the games out there Marr?

I've watched each one many times.. And have rarely seen us in press

marstc09
10-26-2008, 01:40 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.

;D


I 100% disagree. It is hard for you to see the CBs on TV. I have been at all but 1 game. We rarely press. We need to do it most of the time to cater to Cedric. Winfield would also benefit IMO. Sharper will also benefit as this would disrupt the timing between the QB and WR.

Marrdro
10-26-2008, 01:46 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.
;D


I 100% disagree. It is hard for you to see the CBs on TV. I have been at all but 1 game. We rarely press. We need to do it most of the time to cater to Cedric. Winfield would also benefit IMO.

WTF are you talking about.
Of course you can't see what happens after the snap but you can sure the hell see what they are doing pre-snap.

marstc09
10-26-2008, 01:48 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.

;D


I 100% disagree. It is hard for you to see the CBs on TV. I have been at all but 1 game. We rarely press. We need to do it most of the time to cater to Cedric. Winfield would also benefit IMO.

WTF are you talking about.

Of course you can't see what happens after the snap but you can sure the hell see what they are doing pre-snap.


Then you should know that we don't press more than 5% of the time.

Marrdro
10-26-2008, 01:48 PM
"V4L" wrote:


I have rarely seen press this year

Do you even get to watch the games out there Marr?

I've watched each one many times.. And have rarely seen us in press



I have missed one game this year my friend.
I could be just some yutz who doesn't know what I am looking at
I suppose.
::) (yea right) ;D

marstc09
10-26-2008, 01:50 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


I have rarely seen press this year

Do you even get to watch the games out there Marr?

I've watched each one many times.. And have rarely seen us in press



I have missed one game this year my friend.
I could be just some yutz who doesn't know what I am looking at
I suppose.

::) (yea right) ;D


I am going to make it a priority next game to count how many times we press. Can't wait to come back to this thread.

Mr Anderson
10-26-2008, 01:51 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.

;D


I 100% disagree. It is hard for you to see the CBs on TV. I have been at all but 1 game. We rarely press. We need to do it most of the time to cater to Cedric. Winfield would also benefit IMO.

WTF are you talking about.

Of course you can't see what happens after the snap but you can sure the hell see what they are doing pre-snap.

As I'm sure you know, just because it's tighter coverage than our normal huge zone doesn't make it press coverage.

Marrdro
10-26-2008, 01:53 PM
"Mr" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.
;D


I 100% disagree. It is hard for you to see the CBs on TV. I have been at all but 1 game. We rarely press. We need to do it most of the time to cater to Cedric. Winfield would also benefit IMO.

WTF are you talking about.
Of course you can't see what happens after the snap but you can sure the hell see what they are doing pre-snap.

As I'm sure you know, just because it's tighter coverage than our normal huge zone doesn't make it press coverage.

LOL, so now we are gonna argue tighter coverage or not so tight coverage my friend.
;D
;D
;D

Again, can't see what happens after the snap but they have played alot more "Tighter" coverage this year.

How is that. Better?
;D
;D
;D

V4L
10-26-2008, 01:55 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.

;D


I 100% disagree. It is hard for you to see the CBs on TV. I have been at all but 1 game. We rarely press. We need to do it most of the time to cater to Cedric. Winfield would also benefit IMO.

WTF are you talking about.

Of course you can't see what happens after the snap but you can sure the hell see what they are doing pre-snap.

As I'm sure you know, just because it's tighter coverage than our normal huge zone doesn't make it press coverage.

LOL, so now we are gonna argue tighter coverage or not so tight coverage my friend.

;D
;D
;D

Again, can't see what happens after the snap but they have played alot more "Tighter" coverage this year.

How is that. Better?
;D
;D
;D




Ill agree its tighter

We dont play 10 yards off like we used to very much

But we don't play press

marstc09
10-26-2008, 01:55 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.

;D


I 100% disagree. It is hard for you to see the CBs on TV. I have been at all but 1 game. We rarely press. We need to do it most of the time to cater to Cedric. Winfield would also benefit IMO.

WTF are you talking about.

Of course you can't see what happens after the snap but you can sure the hell see what they are doing pre-snap.

As I'm sure you know, just because it's tighter coverage than our normal huge zone doesn't make it press coverage.

LOL, so now we are gonna argue tighter coverage or not so tight coverage my friend.

;D
;D
;D

Again, can't see what happens after the snap but they have played alot more "Tighter" coverage this year.

How is that. Better?
;D
;D
;D


It would be better if we pressed.

Marrdro
10-26-2008, 01:57 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:




I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.
;D


I 100% disagree. It is hard for you to see the CBs on TV. I have been at all but 1 game. We rarely press. We need to do it most of the time to cater to Cedric. Winfield would also benefit IMO.

WTF are you talking about.
Of course you can't see what happens after the snap but you can sure the hell see what they are doing pre-snap.

As I'm sure you know, just because it's tighter coverage than our normal huge zone doesn't make it press coverage.

LOL, so now we are gonna argue tighter coverage or not so tight coverage my friend.
;D
;D
;D

Again, can't see what happens after the snap but they have played alot more "Tighter" coverage this year.

How is that. Better?
;D
;D
;D


It would be better if we pressed.

LOL.
You crack me up.
Kindof pissy that I am working today, you and Mr. A just cheered me up a bit.
;D

marstc09
10-26-2008, 02:04 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:






I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.

;D


I 100% disagree. It is hard for you to see the CBs on TV. I have been at all but 1 game. We rarely press. We need to do it most of the time to cater to Cedric. Winfield would also benefit IMO.

WTF are you talking about.

Of course you can't see what happens after the snap but you can sure the hell see what they are doing pre-snap.

As I'm sure you know, just because it's tighter coverage than our normal huge zone doesn't make it press coverage.

LOL, so now we are gonna argue tighter coverage or not so tight coverage my friend.

;D
;D
;D

Again, can't see what happens after the snap but they have played alot more "Tighter" coverage this year.

How is that. Better?
;D
;D
;D


It would be better if we pressed.

LOL.
You crack me up.
Kindof pissy that I am working today, you and Mr. A just cheered me up a bit.

;D


Always willing to help a friend. Wish you were making a game at MN this year. Favre just had another INT, that should make you smile. Back to the thread though. I think the next coach will bring press to this team. I think we would see a huge difference.

Marrdro
10-26-2008, 02:14 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:








I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.
;D


I 100% disagree. It is hard for you to see the CBs on TV. I have been at all but 1 game. We rarely press. We need to do it most of the time to cater to Cedric. Winfield would also benefit IMO.

WTF are you talking about.
Of course you can't see what happens after the snap but you can sure the hell see what they are doing pre-snap.

As I'm sure you know, just because it's tighter coverage than our normal huge zone doesn't make it press coverage.

LOL, so now we are gonna argue tighter coverage or not so tight coverage my friend.
;D
;D
;D

Again, can't see what happens after the snap but they have played alot more "Tighter" coverage this year.

How is that. Better?
;D
;D
;D


It would be better if we pressed.

LOL.
You crack me up.
Kindof pissy that I am working today, you and Mr. A just cheered me up a bit.
;D


Always willing to help a friend. Wish you were making a game at MN this year. Favre just had another INT, that should make you smile. Back to the thread though. I think the next coach will bring press to this team. I think we would see a huge difference.

I worry about our CB's if we go that way.

Griff and Whinny would be average in that scheme at best.
Not sure if McCauley, Gordon would be any better, "probably worse" if I was actually asked to vote.

Whinny 5'9 180lbs.
Not gonna win many battles against the bigger/better recievers.
He could win some match ups against the smaller, younger guys though. His speed is nice in tight/soft zone but if he was he had to turn and run with the speedier guys I think he would be found wanting.
Then when you get in the red zone I think he would be picked on alot.

Griff.
Big enough and physical enough to man up on the line and he matches up well in the Red zone,
but his speed is also a question mark for me.

We have spent quite a bit in FA last year and I am not so sure we have alot left to go out and get a guy if it came to that.

Would a different scheme be nice to see?
Could be wrong on this, but I think we are stuck in this Cover 2 Scheme for a bit my friend, or at least a rough transition over a year or two.

Mr Anderson
10-26-2008, 03:07 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.

;D


I 100% disagree. It is hard for you to see the CBs on TV. I have been at all but 1 game. We rarely press. We need to do it most of the time to cater to Cedric. Winfield would also benefit IMO.

WTF are you talking about.

Of course you can't see what happens after the snap but you can sure the hell see what they are doing pre-snap.

As I'm sure you know, just because it's tighter coverage than our normal huge zone doesn't make it press coverage.

LOL, so now we are gonna argue tighter coverage or not so tight coverage my friend.

;D
;D
;D

Again, can't see what happens after the snap but they have played alot more "Tighter" coverage this year.

How is that. Better?
;D
;D
;D

Well not so much tight vs. not tight coverage, but whether or not we jam at the line of scrimmage.

And to your comment about corners in another system: Winfield was pretty successful in Buffalo under Ted Cottrell before he came here.
Winfield was very good at UT, so he's definitely an NFL caliber player, but speed is an issue for him, I think if he bulked up he could play strong safety for another team.
Marcus McCauley could play any system, any skill position, he's a ridiculously athletic dude. He had a sub-par senior season at Fresno state, but was great in his years before then. If he's focused and well coached he should be awesome... I don't know why he's only appeared in 3 games this year.

marstc09
10-26-2008, 03:24 PM
"Mr" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:




I am not sure what game you guys have been watching.
We have pressed more this year than we ever have.

Is it been enough or even effective?
Who the hell knows but the D sure isn't as dominant as I would've thought it would have been this year.

I still say it isn't the scheme, but more along the lines of we aren't disguising what we are doing very well.
Start dictating to the offense and whatever we run (cover 2/Press) with our CB's and you will see the QB's throw it when he shouldn't which will result in the plays you guys are looking for.

Keep being predictable and the QB's will know exactly what to do with the ball (run/pass) and if it is a pass, were to go with it.

By the way, I blame our D-cord for this as well as the HC.
He comes up with the week to week game plan and the Chiller approves it.
Out with the both of them I say.

;D


I 100% disagree. It is hard for you to see the CBs on TV. I have been at all but 1 game. We rarely press. We need to do it most of the time to cater to Cedric. Winfield would also benefit IMO.

WTF are you talking about.

Of course you can't see what happens after the snap but you can sure the hell see what they are doing pre-snap.

As I'm sure you know, just because it's tighter coverage than our normal huge zone doesn't make it press coverage.

LOL, so now we are gonna argue tighter coverage or not so tight coverage my friend.

;D
;D
;D

Again, can't see what happens after the snap but they have played alot more "Tighter" coverage this year.

How is that. Better?
;D
;D
;D

Well not so much tight vs. not tight coverage, but whether or not we jam at the line of scrimmage.

And to your comment about corners in another system: Winfield was pretty successful in Buffalo under Ted Cottrell before he came here.
Winfield was very good at UT, so he's definitely an NFL caliber player, but speed is an issue for him, I think if he bulked up he could play strong safety for another team.
Marcus McCauley could play any system, any skill position, he's a ridiculously athletic dude. He had a sub-par senior season at Fresno state, but was great in his years before then. If he's focused and well coached he should be awesome... I don't know why he's only appeared in 3 games this year.


Cedric Griffin is not built for the cover 2.

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2006/prospects/cedric_griffin.html

Marrdro
10-26-2008, 03:25 PM
"Mr" wrote:


Well not so much tight vs. not tight coverage, but whether or not we jam at the line of scrimmage.

And to your comment about corners in another system: Winfield was pretty successful in Buffalo under Ted Cottrell before he came here.
Winfield was very good at UT, so he's definitely an NFL caliber player, but speed is an issue for him, I think if he bulked up he could play strong safety for another team.
Marcus McCauley could play any system, any skill position, he's a ridiculously athletic dude. He had a sub-par senior season at Fresno state, but was great in his years before then. If he's focused and well coached he should be awesome... I don't know why he's only appeared in 3 games this year.

Not sure whats up with Marcus.
I sure had hopes for him.
Last year he didn't do all that bad when Whinny went down.

As to Whinny, I hear ya about Ted's scheme but I just can't vouch for if he ran a system were the CB played alot of man or a zone in his 3-4.
Gonna take a gander at them for a spell today in the second half to see what the CB's are doing.

Regardless, age and speed are the biggest detractors now with respect to Whinny and his speed.

Purple Floyd
10-26-2008, 03:25 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


I like the cover 2.

I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.


I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.


Give up a home run?

In the cover 2, the safety gives up the home run, they cover deep halves, corners play the short zone.
http://rpongett.phpwebhosting.com/Cover2.jpg

IMO they both definitely have the speed to jam at the line and then get back into their zone, but that doesn't really take much speed. Press coverage will naturally take them into their zone. There's no reason not to take advantage of the 5 yard WR contact rule.


I understand that the safety has the deep responsibility, but what happens when the offense sends another WR to that zone? Then the safety has to choose between the player coming into his zone that was just released by the LB or to cover the WR that just got past the CB. Correct? Obviously you can draw up a chart to show how things work in theory, but as you also know the offensive coaches are working on ways to counter that theory and either cause a breakdown in coverage or to create a mismatch.

Of course Mr. A is talking about a standard WR set.
You are talking about adding more WR's.
When that happens we counter with more CB's.

Apples and oranges my friend.


I was just talking about press coverage and whether our CB's had the speed and ability to do it. I have always defined Press coverage as being at the line to back about 5 yards( Usually about 2 yards) and cushion coverage to be from 5-10 yards from the line of scrimmage just to make it simpler.

Now, Do we have the talent to play press coverage? Well, I submit document "A" in my defense stating that we don't.


http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80acb851

Look at the opening play. Both corners are lined up 2 yards off the line. Winfield makes a grea play and picks off the pass- Maybe I am wrong about he talent.

But then look at the play at 2:47. Griff is in press against Gonzalez and he just lets him run right by him, catch the ball, and the colts have a huge play. Yes, they should probably bump the WR, but as easily as he got burned I question if he is cut out to do it good enough to be effective.

And where was that safety that I was told would have that zone if the WR got past the Corner? Hmmm....
Yes, theory is great but when the game is on the line can we dot it? I think not.

At 4:28 we are in press again. We get and INT but you will see Griff on the top of the screen getting beat again.

At 4:49 you will see Gordon lined up tight and getting run by again, you see winny about 4 yards of the line and you will see Gordon watch Wayne run right past him on the way for a TD. Another example where the theory might say that the nickle CB will know who to cover at the pre shap read but it is pretty clear somebody fucked up on that play.


Those types of fuckups are why I say we will get beat too many times when playing tight coverage and the Colts game was a great example. They played tight to the line most of the day, did well much of it, but ended up getting beat just enough to lose the game doing it. Had they played looser coverage and kept the WR's in front of them we could have won that game. Would actually engaging the WR and disrupting his rhythm help eliminate those big plays? I would think in theory they would, but with the breakdowns the secondary has in their reads and with the lack of makeup speed that Griffin has I am hard pressed to say go for it.

What is clear is that press coverage, no bumping, and Griffin is not a recipe for success.

Purple Floyd
10-26-2008, 03:40 PM
I just went through the highlights from NFLN on the vikings for every game this year and if you look at them, it has been Griffin who has given up many plays, but what stood out is how many plays Gordon screwed up on and how many plays deep actually came from the slot.
Just an observation.

Mr Anderson
10-26-2008, 04:27 PM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:




I like the cover 2.

I just think we need to play to our strengths and not pretend we have softies at corner. Play the press, and our problems are solved.

Jamming at the line disrupts the timing between QB and receiver, time is a QB's enemy and friend, but against a defensive line like ours, it's an enemy. Give Allen, KWill, or Ray Edwards an extra split second, and that QB will be eating dirt.

The defense really works off of each other, coverage assists the pass rush, the pass rush assists coverage.


So, press coverage on defense, play-action on offense. Play to our players strengths... do it Childress. Listen to me.


I like the idea of disrupting the WR at the LOS, but do our corners have the speed to be able to do this and still recover if they don't get good contact? It seems to me that Griff and Winfield both can tackle, but my impression on the separation the DC's put between them and the wr's was because they don't have the speed to keep up with the faster WR's and the burst to recover from a misstep like the elite cover corners do. It seems to me with the two of them they would do fine with that for the most part, but on about 3 plays a game they would give up a home run.


Give up a home run?

In the cover 2, the safety gives up the home run, they cover deep halves, corners play the short zone.
http://rpongett.phpwebhosting.com/Cover2.jpg

IMO they both definitely have the speed to jam at the line and then get back into their zone, but that doesn't really take much speed. Press coverage will naturally take them into their zone. There's no reason not to take advantage of the 5 yard WR contact rule.


I understand that the safety has the deep responsibility, but what happens when the offense sends another WR to that zone? Then the safety has to choose between the player coming into his zone that was just released by the LB or to cover the WR that just got past the CB. Correct? Obviously you can draw up a chart to show how things work in theory, but as you also know the offensive coaches are working on ways to counter that theory and either cause a breakdown in coverage or to create a mismatch.

Of course Mr. A is talking about a standard WR set.
You are talking about adding more WR's.
When that happens we counter with more CB's.

Apples and oranges my friend.


I was just talking about press coverage and whether our CB's had the speed and ability to do it. I have always defined Press coverage as being at the line to back about 5 yards( Usually about 2 yards) and cushion coverage to be from 5-10 yards from the line of scrimmage just to make it simpler.

Now, Do we have the talent to play press coverage? Well, I submit document "A" in my defense stating that we don't.


http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80acb851

Look at the opening play. Both corners are lined up 2 yards off the line. Winfield makes a grea play and picks off the pass- Maybe I am wrong about he talent.

But then look at the play at 2:47. Griff is in press against Gonzalez and he just lets him run right by him, catch the ball, and the colts have a huge play. Yes, they should probably bump the WR, but as easily as he got burned I question if he is cut out to do it good enough to be effective.

And where was that safety that I was told would have that zone if the WR got past the Corner? Hmmm....
Yes, theory is great but when the game is on the line can we dot it? I think not.

At 4:28 we are in press again. We get and INT but you will see Griff on the top of the screen getting beat again.

At 4:49 you will see Gordon lined up tight and getting run by again, you see winny about 4 yards of the line and you will see Gordon watch Wayne run right past him on the way for a TD. Another example where the theory might say that the nickle CB will know who to cover at the pre shap read but it is pretty clear somebody fucked up on that play.


Those types of fuckups are why I say we will get beat too many times when playing tight coverage and the Colts game was a great example. They played tight to the line most of the day, did well much of it, but ended up getting beat just enough to lose the game doing it. Had they played looser coverage and kept the WR's in front of them we could have won that game. Would actually engaging the WR and disrupting his rhythm help eliminate those big plays? I would think in theory they would, but with the breakdowns the secondary has in their reads and with the lack of makeup speed that Griffin has I am hard pressed to say go for it.

What is clear is that press coverage, no bumping, and Griffin is not a recipe for success.






We were in nickel at 2:47, I don't know the details of that, I think it's basically just a change in personnel, replacing a linebacker with DB to prevent a mismatch, the DB has the same responsibility the linebacker would... but judging by where Sharper was on that play, we were not in cover 2, completely different situation.

4:28, no contact between he and Gonzalez, and he didn't get beat, he was doing the job he's supposed to do there. You funnel receivers towards the middle of the field, keeping the WR inside of him, which is exactly what Griffin did. With an OLB in position on that play(in this case a nickel corner) Manning can't make that throw to Gonzalez... and he didn't throw to Gonzalez, he went for Wayne, it got tipped and picked... looks like a good play to me.

When Gordon got "beat" at 4:49 he was clearly playing zone and Wayne left his zone deep. Look at the way he's playing. He drops back with his shoulders parallel with the LOS(it's not man coverage he's not going to run step for step with a receiver), sees Manning make the throw, and follows the ball. EJ and the safeties fucked up there.

Blame the safeties for making bad reads, or not reacting, the corners are doing their jobs. So long as they keep guys inside of and at least parallel with them and make the tackle, they're doing their job.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80b90b97
1:29 Does Ronde Barber get beat?
2:55 Watch Aqib Talib's(rookie btw) coverage, outside of the the receiver, Delhomme throws his way, the safety plays it right, breaks it up and Talib comes down with the pick.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80b33590
0:10 That time Talib falls, Jennings gets the sideline, the safety doesn't have time to react, touchdown.
2:46 Watch both corners.

We play the cover 2, the corners are the least important part of our coverage next to the defensive line of course. Everyone(not you specifically Uffda) seems to think our corners are supposed to play like it's a traditional 4-3, and that's not going to happen, they're gonna let guys go after 10-15 yards, it's up to the safeties and MLB to pick them up deep. They're gonna look like they're beat when they're not, there might be a guy "open"
a few yards in front of them, there should be an OLB in the throwing lane, or a safety coming up to make the hit.

We need to make our reads better and faster. Practicing against the offense ran by our coach doesn't help, hell he can't run our offense with any imagination or success, how the fuck is he expected to run a mock-offense of the Colts... fire Childress.

I have nothing more to add to this discussion.

V4L
10-31-2008, 04:19 PM
Amazing post Anderson

Ive been with ya 100 percent.. The corners play their zones well

When we fail to get pressure the wrs get out of the zone and find the soft spots

V-Unit
10-31-2008, 04:33 PM
Great thread.

I have been advocating more bump and run for a long time now.

V4L
10-31-2008, 04:34 PM
"V" wrote:


Great thread.

I have been advocating more bump and run for a long time now.



We should try

I think our corners could handle

C Mac D
10-31-2008, 04:51 PM
"V4L" wrote:


"V" wrote:


Great thread.

I have been advocating more bump and run for a long time now.



We should try

I think our corners could handle


Agreed... especially Griffin. I think his strength is his physicality and we should use it.

I mean, Winfield can flat-out play, regardless.

singersp
11-01-2008, 03:36 AM
"V" wrote:


Great thread.

I have been advocating more bump and run for a long time now.


+1

Been saying that as well. Knock the S.O.B. on his ass at the LOS.

singersp
11-01-2008, 03:47 AM
Bottom line is the Cover 2 isn't working for us. If you don't get immediate pressure, the QB is going to hit a WR or TE that is being given a big cushion. QB's with a quick drop & a throw are going to beat that big cushion time & time again. We see this game after game after game.

We need to blanket those receivers at the get go, disrupt or slow up their route, making the QB hesitate to throw & look elsewhere & give our line time to get in the QB's face.

V-Unit
11-01-2008, 02:32 PM
"singersp" wrote:


Bottom line is the Cover 2 isn't working for us. If you don't get immediate pressure, the QB is going to hit a WR or TE that is being given a big cushion. QB's with a quick drop & a throw are going to beat that big cushion time & time again. We see this game after game after game.

We need to blanket those receivers at the get go, disrupt or slow up their route, making the QB hesitate to throw & look elsewhere & give our line time to get in the QB's face.


Yet we don't do that about 85% of the time. We are not running the cover 2 in its traditional sense, and we need to.

HEY
11-01-2008, 05:29 PM
To me, Darren Sharper has been looking out of rythm pretty much throughout the season. He's definitely past his prime. He did not perform very well last year either. He needs to be replaced.

singersp
11-01-2008, 07:00 PM
"V" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


Bottom line is the Cover 2 isn't working for us. If you don't get immediate pressure, the QB is going to hit a WR or TE that is being given a big cushion. QB's with a quick drop & a throw are going to beat that big cushion time & time again. We see this game after game after game.

We need to blanket those receivers at the get go, disrupt or slow up their route, making the QB hesitate to throw & look elsewhere & give our line time to get in the QB's face.


Yet we don't do that about 85% of the time. We are not running the cover 2 in its traditional sense, and we need to.


+1

And of that 85%, how many times have we seen completed pass after completed pass after completed pass & the chains get moved for our opponents?

Too damn many.

BleedinPandG
12-01-2008, 10:21 AM
So who heard the announcers last night gushing over the way the Vikings Cover 2 was working brilliantly?
It's amazing how much more effective the Cover 2 looks when the QB isn't able to scan the entire field all day long looking for opening and is throwing after only a glance at a WR.
Some of those highlights... all you saw was purple jerseys everywhere in the secondary as 7 people dropped into coverage.
Long live the Cover 2!!!!!

I believe the Vikes will be effective with it if they continue to do 2 things.
The first is obviously to get good pressure with the front 4, key to the cover 2.
But the 2nd is to continue to have the CBs play aggressive man to man at the LOS.
Take away all that short 3 step drop crap and let things get messy in the secondary.
Lets the DLine get after the QB and make him panic.
Make him throw into confusing traffic, on the move... as we saw last night, good things happen!

Mr Anderson
12-01-2008, 12:02 PM
"BleedinPandG" wrote:


So who heard the announcers last night gushing over the way the Vikings Cover 2 was working brilliantly?
It's amazing how much more effective the Cover 2 looks when the QB isn't able to scan the entire field all day long looking for opening and is throwing after only a glance at a WR.
Some of those highlights... all you saw was purple jerseys everywhere in the secondary as 7 people dropped into coverage.
Long live the Cover 2!!!!!

I believe the Vikes will be effective with it if they continue to do 2 things.
The first is obviously to get good pressure with the front 4, key to the cover 2.
But the 2nd is to continue to have the CBs play aggressive man to man at the LOS.
Take away all that short 3 step drop crap and let things get messy in the secondary.
Lets the DLine get after the QB and make him panic.
Make him throw into confusing traffic, on the move... as we saw last night, good things happen!

Exactly.

One more thing we learned, Sharper can still jump the easy pick... but is really struggling otherwise.
I hope Tyrell sees some solid playing time against the Lions, since Sharper is nowhere near fast enough to keep up with Calvin Johnson.

Marrdro
12-01-2008, 12:12 PM
"Mr" wrote:


"BleedinPandG" wrote:


So who heard the announcers last night gushing over the way the Vikings Cover 2 was working brilliantly?
It's amazing how much more effective the Cover 2 looks when the QB isn't able to scan the entire field all day long looking for opening and is throwing after only a glance at a WR.
Some of those highlights... all you saw was purple jerseys everywhere in the secondary as 7 people dropped into coverage.
Long live the Cover 2!!!!!

I believe the Vikes will be effective with it if they continue to do 2 things.
The first is obviously to get good pressure with the front 4, key to the cover 2.
But the 2nd is to continue to have the CBs play aggressive man to man at the LOS.
Take away all that short 3 step drop crap and let things get messy in the secondary.
Lets the DLine get after the QB and make him panic.
Make him throw into confusing traffic, on the move... as we saw last night, good things happen!

Exactly.

One more thing we learned, Sharper can still jump the easy pick... but is really struggling otherwise.
I hope Tyrell sees some solid playing time against the Lions, since Sharper is nowhere near fast enough to keep up with Calvin Johnson.

Wasn't someone gonna watch our CB's, related to how many times they pressed (especially Griff), and get back to me?

By the way, I am almost convinced (after 4 games) that they are in fact trying to use Griff as a shutdown CB in certain situations.
Heck, can't be sure how many times this happened, but as with the previous 2 games, he switched sides with Whinny to stick with the teams number one.

Anyone else seeing that?

Key note:
Sharpe got a pick playing his zone in the cover 2 last night.
Is that because the coaches were holding him back or because he played within the scheme after he and Whinny screwed the pooch on Hester early.
::)

gagarr
12-01-2008, 12:32 PM
QB pressure.... with it Cover 2 works... without it Cover 2 looks like prevent D

The reason Allen was brought in was to get that pressure.
Last night he and the rest of the DL brought pressure, with great success.
Thus, the secondary could do their job.

Like all systems you need the right players to make it happen.
This is the 1st game that I saw the Vikes perform the Cover 2 with good success.

tastywaves
12-01-2008, 01:56 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"BleedinPandG" wrote:


So who heard the announcers last night gushing over the way the Vikings Cover 2 was working brilliantly?
It's amazing how much more effective the Cover 2 looks when the QB isn't able to scan the entire field all day long looking for opening and is throwing after only a glance at a WR.
Some of those highlights... all you saw was purple jerseys everywhere in the secondary as 7 people dropped into coverage.
Long live the Cover 2!!!!!

I believe the Vikes will be effective with it if they continue to do 2 things.
The first is obviously to get good pressure with the front 4, key to the cover 2.
But the 2nd is to continue to have the CBs play aggressive man to man at the LOS.
Take away all that short 3 step drop crap and let things get messy in the secondary.
Lets the DLine get after the QB and make him panic.
Make him throw into confusing traffic, on the move... as we saw last night, good things happen!

Exactly.

One more thing we learned, Sharper can still jump the easy pick... but is really struggling otherwise.
I hope Tyrell sees some solid playing time against the Lions, since Sharper is nowhere near fast enough to keep up with Calvin Johnson.

Wasn't someone gonna watch our CB's, related to how many times they pressed (especially Griff), and get back to me?

By the way, I am almost convinced (after 4 games) that they are in fact trying to use Griff as a shutdown CB in certain situations.
Heck, can't be sure how many times this happened, but as with the previous 2 games, he switched sides with Whinny to stick with the teams number one.

Anyone else seeing that?

Key note:
Sharpe got a pick playing his zone in the cover 2 last night.
Is that because the coaches were holding him back or because he played within the scheme after he and Whinny screwed the pooch on Hester early.

::)


Who is the #1 receiver for Chicago?
Winfield seemed to matchup on Hester for most of the night (regardless of which side).
Griffin lined up on Olsen quite a bit. There were a number of times where we had no corner on one side of the field.

Give kudos to Madieu Williams for a lot of this improved play, along with DL coming on strong.
When Robison and Allen are both in the game, one or both of them seem to be pressing the QB.
These guys have similar motors and are great for passing downs.
The three DE set seems to be bringing a lot of heat as well.
Might see a lot more of this if the Williams boys get suspended.

C Mac D
12-01-2008, 02:00 PM
I've said it since the first time I saw him in action... ROBISON IS A BEAST.

Marrdro
12-01-2008, 02:01 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"BleedinPandG" wrote:


So who heard the announcers last night gushing over the way the Vikings Cover 2 was working brilliantly?
It's amazing how much more effective the Cover 2 looks when the QB isn't able to scan the entire field all day long looking for opening and is throwing after only a glance at a WR.
Some of those highlights... all you saw was purple jerseys everywhere in the secondary as 7 people dropped into coverage.
Long live the Cover 2!!!!!

I believe the Vikes will be effective with it if they continue to do 2 things.
The first is obviously to get good pressure with the front 4, key to the cover 2.
But the 2nd is to continue to have the CBs play aggressive man to man at the LOS.
Take away all that short 3 step drop crap and let things get messy in the secondary.
Lets the DLine get after the QB and make him panic.
Make him throw into confusing traffic, on the move... as we saw last night, good things happen!

Exactly.

One more thing we learned, Sharper can still jump the easy pick... but is really struggling otherwise.
I hope Tyrell sees some solid playing time against the Lions, since Sharper is nowhere near fast enough to keep up with Calvin Johnson.

Wasn't someone gonna watch our CB's, related to how many times they pressed (especially Griff), and get back to me?

By the way, I am almost convinced (after 4 games) that they are in fact trying to use Griff as a shutdown CB in certain situations.
Heck, can't be sure how many times this happened, but as with the previous 2 games, he switched sides with Whinny to stick with the teams number one.

Anyone else seeing that?

Key note:
Sharpe got a pick playing his zone in the cover 2 last night.
Is that because the coaches were holding him back or because he played within the scheme after he and Whinny screwed the pooch on Hester early.

::)


Who is the #1 receiver for Chicago?
Winfield seemed to matchup on Hester for most of the night (regardless of which side).
Griffin lined up on Olsen quite a bit. There were a number of times where we had no corner on one side of the field.

Give kudos to Madieu Williams for a lot of this improved play, along with DL coming on strong.
When Robison and Allen are both in the game, one or both of them seem to be pressing the QB.
These guys have similar motors and are great for passing downs.
The three DE set seems to be bringing a lot of heat as well.
Might see a lot more of this if the Williams boys get suspended.


He lined up on Hester as well.
When JA got the first sack, Hester was matched up against Griff for what appeared to be a quick slant.

As to what the staff is doing, I am not sure the staff is just picking out a specific number 1 but rather assigning him to a reciever (Olsen, Hester) depending on the roll of the dice.
Of course that is all speculation on my part as he also was matching up with other recievers that come out to his normal side.

Long story short, whatever they are doing with him (the last 3 or 4 games) I like it.
;D

Del Rio
12-01-2008, 02:02 PM
Winfield was getting toasted all night by Hester. He got burned on a quick in ( as well as Sharper ) and twice more during the game on deep posts only Hester dropped the ball both times.

Cover two is a lot better when you have safties that actually hit.

What I am not a fan of lately is the zone blitz where Allen drops back into coverage last few games he has been horribly out of position. Kevin Williams is the king of zone blitz I think he averages a couple picks a year doing it.

Marrdro
12-01-2008, 02:06 PM
"Del" wrote:


Winfield was getting toasted all night by Hester. He got burned on a quick in ( as well as Sharper ) and twice more during the game on deep posts only Hester dropped the ball both times.

Cover two is a lot better when you have safties that actually hit.

What I am not a fan of lately is the zone blitz where Allen drops back into coverage last few games he has been horribly out of position. Kevin Williams is the king of zone blitz I think he averages a couple picks a year doing it.

I was waiting for someone to mention that.

Kindof been seeing it alot in the league the last 2 years or so.
I for one like that they are using JA instead of Phat Pat (Like they did last year) in that role.
;D

tastywaves
12-01-2008, 02:08 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"BleedinPandG" wrote:


So who heard the announcers last night gushing over the way the Vikings Cover 2 was working brilliantly?
It's amazing how much more effective the Cover 2 looks when the QB isn't able to scan the entire field all day long looking for opening and is throwing after only a glance at a WR.
Some of those highlights... all you saw was purple jerseys everywhere in the secondary as 7 people dropped into coverage.
Long live the Cover 2!!!!!

I believe the Vikes will be effective with it if they continue to do 2 things.
The first is obviously to get good pressure with the front 4, key to the cover 2.
But the 2nd is to continue to have the CBs play aggressive man to man at the LOS.
Take away all that short 3 step drop crap and let things get messy in the secondary.
Lets the DLine get after the QB and make him panic.
Make him throw into confusing traffic, on the move... as we saw last night, good things happen!

Exactly.

One more thing we learned, Sharper can still jump the easy pick... but is really struggling otherwise.
I hope Tyrell sees some solid playing time against the Lions, since Sharper is nowhere near fast enough to keep up with Calvin Johnson.

Wasn't someone gonna watch our CB's, related to how many times they pressed (especially Griff), and get back to me?

By the way, I am almost convinced (after 4 games) that they are in fact trying to use Griff as a shutdown CB in certain situations.
Heck, can't be sure how many times this happened, but as with the previous 2 games, he switched sides with Whinny to stick with the teams number one.

Anyone else seeing that?

Key note:
Sharpe got a pick playing his zone in the cover 2 last night.
Is that because the coaches were holding him back or because he played within the scheme after he and Whinny screwed the pooch on Hester early.

::)


Who is the #1 receiver for Chicago?
Winfield seemed to matchup on Hester for most of the night (regardless of which side).
Griffin lined up on Olsen quite a bit. There were a number of times where we had no corner on one side of the field.

Give kudos to Madieu Williams for a lot of this improved play, along with DL coming on strong.
When Robison and Allen are both in the game, one or both of them seem to be pressing the QB.
These guys have similar motors and are great for passing downs.
The three DE set seems to be bringing a lot of heat as well.
Might see a lot more of this if the Williams boys get suspended.


He lined up on Hester as well.
When JA got the first sack, Hester was matched up against Griff for what appeared to be a quick slant.

As to what the staff is doing, I am not sure the staff is just picking out a specific number 1 but rather assigning him to a reciever (Olsen, Hester) depending on the roll of the dice.
Of course that is all speculation on my part as he also was matching up with other recievers that come out to his normal side.

Long story short, whatever they are doing with him (the last 3 or 4 games) I like it.

;D



They seem to be mixing up the secondary assignments quite a bit since Madieu has come back.
Cover 2 is getting a lot more creative as of late in Vikings land.

Marrdro
12-01-2008, 02:09 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:




So who heard the announcers last night gushing over the way the Vikings Cover 2 was working brilliantly?
It's amazing how much more effective the Cover 2 looks when the QB isn't able to scan the entire field all day long looking for opening and is throwing after only a glance at a WR.
Some of those highlights... all you saw was purple jerseys everywhere in the secondary as 7 people dropped into coverage.
Long live the Cover 2!!!!!

I believe the Vikes will be effective with it if they continue to do 2 things.
The first is obviously to get good pressure with the front 4, key to the cover 2.
But the 2nd is to continue to have the CBs play aggressive man to man at the LOS.
Take away all that short 3 step drop crap and let things get messy in the secondary.
Lets the DLine get after the QB and make him panic.
Make him throw into confusing traffic, on the move... as we saw last night, good things happen!

Exactly.

One more thing we learned, Sharper can still jump the easy pick... but is really struggling otherwise.
I hope Tyrell sees some solid playing time against the Lions, since Sharper is nowhere near fast enough to keep up with Calvin Johnson.

Wasn't someone gonna watch our CB's, related to how many times they pressed (especially Griff), and get back to me?

By the way, I am almost convinced (after 4 games) that they are in fact trying to use Griff as a shutdown CB in certain situations.
Heck, can't be sure how many times this happened, but as with the previous 2 games, he switched sides with Whinny to stick with the teams number one.

Anyone else seeing that?

Key note:
Sharpe got a pick playing his zone in the cover 2 last night.
Is that because the coaches were holding him back or because he played within the scheme after he and Whinny screwed the pooch on Hester early.

::)


Who is the #1 receiver for Chicago?
Winfield seemed to matchup on Hester for most of the night (regardless of which side).
Griffin lined up on Olsen quite a bit. There were a number of times where we had no corner on one side of the field.

Give kudos to Madieu Williams for a lot of this improved play, along with DL coming on strong.
When Robison and Allen are both in the game, one or both of them seem to be pressing the QB.
These guys have similar motors and are great for passing downs.
The three DE set seems to be bringing a lot of heat as well.
Might see a lot more of this if the Williams boys get suspended.


He lined up on Hester as well.
When JA got the first sack, Hester was matched up against Griff for what appeared to be a quick slant.

As to what the staff is doing, I am not sure the staff is just picking out a specific number 1 but rather assigning him to a reciever (Olsen, Hester) depending on the roll of the dice.
Of course that is all speculation on my part as he also was matching up with other recievers that come out to his normal side.

Long story short, whatever they are doing with him (the last 3 or 4 games) I like it.

;D



They seem to be mixing up the secondary assignments quite a bit since Madieu has come back.
Cover 2 is getting a lot more creative as of late in Vikings land.

Good point on Madieu.

V4L
12-01-2008, 02:13 PM
Madieu is 2 steps ahead of everyones lover Tyrell

Im watching the game again right now and Darren and Cedric just broke up passes

besides the bad angle Sharper took on Hester (we knew he did this for years) he played well

Winny was getting torched on the man to mans.. Luckily we were getting pressure because he wasn't stickin with his guys

Ced and Madieu played great.. Darren average.. Winny not so great

VikingsTw
12-01-2008, 02:20 PM
Tyrell is still a rookie, Meadue has been doing this for four or five years in the Pro's. While I didn't believe Williams would make that much of impact in his return I didn't know just how good he was. After more research I found that many Bengal fans felt he was a Pro Bowl talent and so far thats what I've seen. Johnson was good while he played and I'm glad he got the experience that will be much to his advantage next year when he steps into the SS position. Tyrell has an extremely bright future ahead.

Cedric has been really good, and Sharper decent, Winfield gave up one big play last night in which he should have had help, other than that I don't see where he was burned so bad.

V4L
12-01-2008, 02:24 PM
Rewatch the game

Sometimes the ball was not thrown but he was out of position

And sometimes it was and the WRs flat out dropped the ball

He did make a few tips and cut off some slants.. But he was getting shook on routes all night

Mr Anderson
12-01-2008, 02:51 PM
Someone pointed out in the live chat that Greenway doesn't turn and look for the ball in coverage.

It occurred twice during the game, the TD was worse than the first pass. The first one the receiver gave him no hints the ball was on it's way, just as a receiver should.

The TD was poor, the receiver left his feet and Greenway still didn't look for the ball, although it was a pretty bang-bang play he could have played it better.


And to Del Pointing out JA dropping into coverage, I really don't like it. Once the receiver is behind him he doesn't know what to do, he was almost in the throwing lane, but almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

kevoncox
12-01-2008, 03:09 PM
"Mr" wrote:


Someone pointed out in the live chat that Greenway doesn't turn and look for the ball in coverage.

It occurred twice during the game, the TD was worse than the first pass. The first one the receiver gave him no hints the ball was on it's way, just as a receiver should.

The TD was poor, the receiver left his feet and Greenway still didn't look for the ball, although it was a pretty bang-bang play he could have played it better.


And to Del Pointing out JA dropping into coverage, I really don't like it. Once the receiver is behind him he doesn't know what to do, he was almost in the throwing lane, but almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.


I would prefer edwards. Allen is one of the best pass rushers in the game. Why not use the pressure he creates with the blitz?

Marrdro
12-01-2008, 03:16 PM
"Mr" wrote:


Someone pointed out in the live chat that Greenway doesn't turn and look for the ball in coverage.

It occurred twice during the game, the TD was worse than the first pass. The first one the receiver gave him no hints the ball was on it's way, just as a receiver should.

The TD was poor, the receiver left his feet and Greenway still didn't look for the ball, although it was a pretty bang-bang play he could have played it better.


And to Del Pointing out JA dropping into coverage, I really don't like it. Once the receiver is behind him he doesn't know what to do, he was almost in the throwing lane, but almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

I am sure both you and Del would admit that someone (Greenway and M-will) should have got to the QB before he could get the ball out.


Who was the DLmen that got an INT this weekend dropping into ZB coverage?

Long story short, it isn't something you would/should do on a regular basis, but if you want to confuse the blockers as well as the QB (who is picking you apart with quick passes) it comes in handy at times..... ::)

VikingsTw
12-01-2008, 05:41 PM
"V4L" wrote:


Rewatch the game

Sometimes the ball was not thrown but he was out of position

And sometimes it was and the WRs flat out dropped the ball

He did make a few tips and cut off some slants.. But he was getting shook on routes all night


Yeah I'll probably rewatch the game at some point just because it was a great game but I doubt you will confince me he was getting shook all night but I'll check to see "What Is". I saw one pass that Davis dropped, that route and throw can be very difficult for any corner to cover, the only problem was it was a inch or two from being a perfect pass, a very hard one to defend.

The biggest issue Winfield had last night was the one play he did give up, which was a slant pass to Hester then a wiffed tackle. Winfield has been beaten by a few WR's with Elite speed such as Devin Hester, Chad Johnson, Donald Driver and Bernard Berrian. He can struggle with Elite speed but more often that not he's winning.

If in deed he was "shook all night" and "out of position" its uncharacteristic.

V4L
12-01-2008, 05:44 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Rewatch the game

Sometimes the ball was not thrown but he was out of position

And sometimes it was and the WRs flat out dropped the ball

He did make a few tips and cut off some slants.. But he was getting shook on routes all night


Yeah I'll probably rewatch the game at some point just because it was a great game but I doubt you will confince me he was getting shook all night but I'll check to see "What Is". I saw one pass that Davis dropped, that route and throw can be very difficult for any corner to cover, the only problem was it was a inch or two from being a perfect pass, a very hard one to defend.

The biggest issue Winfield had last night was the one play he did give up, which was a slant pass to Hester then a wiffed tackle. Winfield has been beaten by a few WR's with Elite speed such as Devin Hester, Chad Johnson, Donald Driver and Bernard Berrian. He can struggle with Elite speed but more often that not he's winning.

If in deed he was "shook all night" and "out of position" its uncharacteristic.



I dont think he played horrible

But he was letting more then usual past him that's all

Luckily the Bears had butterfingers

thorshammer
12-01-2008, 10:40 PM
It does seem our pass D is improving since MW has gotten involved after the neck injury. We do seem more creative with the coverages. If we can gel in time we might be a pretty good pass D. It appears we can play closer to the line with our corners more often lately. Go Vikings.

Purple Floyd
12-01-2008, 10:47 PM
The cover 2 is the best scheme in football. It is going to take us to SB victory