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VikingsTw
09-28-2008, 05:34 PM
Horrible loss for our team we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot by self descrtucting on all sides of the ball regarldess of coaching or play calling. We fail to execute and draw way too many penalties. Don't want to single anyone out here just a couple comments on a guy who sucks right now.

I think Cedric Griffin is lacking and nearly on Smoot's level in coverage. I thought this being his third year we might start seeing Griffin make more plays on the ball but this guy simply gets burned even when the passess are off. All those passess that come so close to being a play made by Griffin continue to be plays made by the WR. He continues to make decent/good WR's look Great even with pass rush. Todays Pass Rush wasn't great but Collins got rid of ball quickly. The Colts game was pressure all game and the dude still couldn't cover. He's physical, a great tackler but IMO he is a serious weakness in our secondary and unless he magically corrects the issue QBs and Offensive Cordinators will continue to take advantage of him.

I called into KFAN and told them I thought since Tarvaris Jackson was benched we should start making presonel changes at other positions that arn't pulling there weight. Benny Sapp was a guy I mentioned, who I think is underated, physical, not the biggest guy but he will get his if you pass to him. Lots of INT and production in training camp. Very Confident kid and a veteran. Dubay told me that Leslie Frazier isn't an idiot which I agree but this wouldn't be the first time this staff made mistakes with personal. Its a short trip back to last year when Troy Williamson who is very unqualified was our Kick Return Man. He didn't feel there was anyone on our roster better than Griffin but I think Gordon is a better football player barnone.

Am I being harsh on Griffin or is anyone else ready to see improvement or a change?



Edit - SIA changed the name to D@mn Beast.
Look who started this topic.
Still controversial even after being booted.
LOL!

C Mac D
09-28-2008, 05:36 PM
I'd rather see Benny Sapp in there... he had a better camp and is probably a better corner.

i_bleed_purple
09-28-2008, 05:37 PM
wow, i was preaching this months ago (check out the "who is the most overrated viking" thread)
and was getting hammered.
Seem's some are starting to agree with me.
He's garbage, and should not be starting. (not like we have a better option though)

VikingsTw
09-28-2008, 05:44 PM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


wow, i was preaching this months ago (check out the "who is the most overrated viking" thread)
and was getting hammered.
Seem's some are starting to agree with me.
He's garbage, and should not be starting. (not like we have a better option though)


I just cannott agree with that untill I see it, I think both Gordon and Sapp would give him a run for his money. Griffin is certainly getting the nod and I think much of it has to do with what we planned for him when we selected him in the 2nd round. Alot like the way Tarvaris was drafted early, big plans but if they don't work out we must go elsewhere.

Purple Floyd
09-28-2008, 05:49 PM
We have had a shitty secondary since dungy left over a decade ago.

It is not going to help to replace him.

VikingsTw
09-28-2008, 06:12 PM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


We have had a poohie secondary since dungy left over a decade ago.

It is not going to help to replace him.


Did you not see how bad this guy performed vs the Colts and now the Titans? How could possibly know that a change won't help?

kevoncox
09-28-2008, 06:20 PM
Trade for Shelton Brown!!!!!!!!
Hes physically enough to play the cover 2( ask Bush)
and has great cover skills.

MaxVike
09-28-2008, 06:24 PM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


We have had a shitty secondary since dungy left over a decade ago.

It is not going to help to replace him.


I agree.

Purple Floyd
09-28-2008, 06:30 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


We have had a poohie secondary since dungy left over a decade ago.

It is not going to help to replace him.


Did you not see how bad this guy performed vs the Colts and now the Titans? How could possibly know that a change won't help?


Because it is a systematic problem.

In the cover 2 you need more pressure from the line so that the corners are not exposed all game. Last week we got pressure and Griffin was able to look acceptable. In the Packers, colts and titans games the line was not getting pressure so the wr's had better days.

When you line the CB up 10 yards off the line it is going to create space for them to get open. But the whole key, as I said, is to find a way to get consistent pressure. We have spent enough money up front to expect a better job.

V4L
09-28-2008, 06:35 PM
Its the system

The CBs cant stay with a WR for 4-5 seconds

VikingsTw
09-28-2008, 06:36 PM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


We have had a poohie secondary since dungy left over a decade ago.

It is not going to help to replace him.


Did you not see how bad this guy performed vs the Colts and now the Titans? How could possibly know that a change won't help?


Because it is a systematic problem.

In the cover 2 you need more pressure from the line so that the corners are not exposed all game. Last week we got pressure and Griffin was able to look acceptable. In the Packers, colts and titans games the line was not getting pressure so the wr's had better days.

When you line the CB up 10 yards off the line it is going to create space for them to get open. But the whole key, as I said, is to find a way to get consistent pressure. We have spent enough money up front to expect a better job.


LOL, this is when I know your post is shot, I guess you didn't watch the Colts game when Manning was under immense pressure, the most we got all season might I add and CONSITENT. We destroyed there make shift Oline. I can't say I'm completely satisfied with the Pass Rush but there has been enough to get the job done. Winfield is our other CB and he isn't getting beat nearly on the level of Griffin. Even a guy like Gordon has deminstrated some good coverage ability.

It doesn't matter if he is lined up 10 yards back or is in bump and run, he's burned all day every day. I hate to even have to make this thread because I was very high on this guy but I'm not about to start making excuses for his lack of performance.

kevoncox
09-28-2008, 06:40 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


We have had a poohie secondary since dungy left over a decade ago.

It is not going to help to replace him.


Did you not see how bad this guy performed vs the Colts and now the Titans? How could possibly know that a change won't help?


Because it is a systematic problem.

In the cover 2 you need more pressure from the line so that the corners are not exposed all game. Last week we got pressure and Griffin was able to look acceptable. In the Packers, colts and titans games the line was not getting pressure so the wr's had better days.

When you line the CB up 10 yards off the line it is going to create space for them to get open. But the whole key, as I said, is to find a way to get consistent pressure. We have spent enough money up front to expect a better job.


LOL, this is when I know your post is shot, I guess you didn't watch the Colts game when Manning was under immense pressure, the most we got all season might I add and CONSITENT. We destroyed there make shift Oline. I can't say I'm completely satisfied with the Pass Rush but there has been enough to get the job done. Winfield is our other CB and he isn't getting beat nearly on the level of Griffin. Even a guy like Gordon has deminstrated some good coverage ability.

It doesn't matter if he is lined up 10 yards back or is in bump and run, he's burned all day every day. I hate to even have to make this thread because I was very high on this guy but I'm not about to start making excuses for his lack of performance.



Also we ran a lot of man today and he still got ate up. last week SS has 70 yards in the first half. Griffen was getting eaten alive. He is no CB

VikingsTw
09-28-2008, 06:42 PM
"V4L" wrote:


Its the system

The CBs cant stay with a WR for 4-5 seconds


Another excuse but this one isn't even valid, we can all act there is no pass rush and that is the problem but its not because the QB's we have been facing don't have all day to throw the ball. Its usually very easy for QB's to be out with the ball when there going to left side fo the field.

VikingsTw
09-28-2008, 06:44 PM
"kevoncox" wrote:


Also we ran a lot of man today and he still got ate up. last week SS has 70 yards in the first half. Griffen was getting eaten alive. He is no CB


Not a coverage one anyway, I love to have him because he's such a physical presence, a great tackler and hitter but his coverage skills are awful.

Purple Floyd
09-28-2008, 06:47 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


We have had a poohie secondary since dungy left over a decade ago.

It is not going to help to replace him.


Did you not see how bad this guy performed vs the Colts and now the Titans? How could possibly know that a change won't help?


Because it is a systematic problem.

In the cover 2 you need more pressure from the line so that the corners are not exposed all game. Last week we got pressure and Griffin was able to look acceptable. In the Packers, colts and titans games the line was not getting pressure so the wr's had better days.

When you line the CB up 10 yards off the line it is going to create space for them to get open. But the whole key, as I said, is to find a way to get consistent pressure. We have spent enough money up front to expect a better job.


LOL, this is when I know your post is shot, I guess you didn't watch the Colts game when Manning was under immense pressure, the most we got all season might I add and CONSITENT. We destroyed there make shift Oline. I can't say I'm completely satisfied with the Pass Rush but there has been enough to get the job done. Winfield is our other CB and he isn't getting beat nearly on the level of Griffin. Even a guy like Gordon has deminstrated some good coverage ability.

It doesn't matter if he is lined up 10 yards back or is in bump and run, he's burned all day every day. I hate to even have to make this thread because I was very high on this guy but I'm not about to start making excuses for his lack of performance.



Sorry Buddy, I was at the game.

They did get pressure until the third quarter.

You do remember the third quarter? That is when the corners went from looking good to getting burned. My point is upheld.

You are just pissy because you were the biggest cheerleader for Childress and his pipe dream all offseason when many of us were saying he was a bad coach and now that it is obvious we were right you are searching for a Smoot.

ultravikingfan
09-28-2008, 06:56 PM
"V4L" wrote:


Its the system

The CBs cant stay with a WR for 4-5 seconds


Come on, you build your system depending on the players/talent you have.
If you have talent you can press and go man a lot (GB & Chicago).
If you do not have it you go zone (us).

kevoncox
09-28-2008, 06:59 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Its the system

The CBs cant stay with a WR for 4-5 seconds


Come on, you build your system depending on the players/talent you have.
If you have talent you can press and go man a lot (GB & Chicago).
If you do not have it you go zone (us).




Not the Vikes...We build the system then try to fit layers who dont fit into it....Example = Smoot!

Reignman
09-28-2008, 07:00 PM
Griffin is making me forget all about Dishman and Smoot. Or is he reminding me of them?

VikingsTw
09-28-2008, 07:08 PM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


Sorry Buddy, I was at the game.

They did get pressure until the third quarter.

You do remember the third quarter? That is when the corners went from looking good to getting burned. My point is upheld.

You are just pissy because you were the biggest cheerleader for Childress and his pipe dream all offseason when many of us were saying he was a bad coach and now that it is obvious we were right you are searching for a Smoot.


I don't care wether you were at the game or not, I watched it on TV more than once.

We got pressure all game long, we even got pressure when Manning completed that amazing seem pass on the money, Chuck Gordon was in coverage but it was one of those passess that is almost too good. Griffin was burned all game long, Gonzales had over 135 yards total.

Trust me I'm not happy with alot of things that are happening, wether you want to call that pissy is up to you but I'm certainly not the only one that is upset. I was supportive of Childress this whole offseason, I think Childress is a very smart individual but I really don't know if Head Coach is his niche. He might be more sutable for a job in the front office where he has more of impact and has had a good impact on our current roster thats filled with Talent and Character. I've stated it before if he can't win with this talent he needs to be gone, just like I said If Tarvaris can't cut it he'll need to. Just because I support someone doesn't mean I won't be honest with the situation, just like the way I'm being honest with Cedric Griffin who I have defended before, probably in the thread that "I Bleed Purple" made in the offseason.

I don't have to search for a Smoot because Griffin is making it evident by his lack of consitancy in coverage. I think Griffin is the biggest weakness on this defense and unless he steps up or someone else does opposing offenses will continue to take advantage of that side of the field and quite frankly we can't have that, not at 1-3 and playing pass happy offense next week.

jessejames09
09-28-2008, 08:04 PM
Griffins problem is man to man, and we did it a lot today.

You know who plays well on the outside? Marcus McCauley. The reason he didn't fit the team is because he doesn't play well in the slot, Toine would have to move inside on nickel situations. Maybe it's time to activate him and give Griff some time in the slot.

V4L
09-28-2008, 08:41 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Its the system

The CBs cant stay with a WR for 4-5 seconds


Come on, you build your system depending on the players/talent you have.
If you have talent you can press and go man a lot (GB & Chicago).
If you do not have it you go zone (us).





Yes im aware

But when you give a vet QB 3-5 solid seconds to throw the ball he will make good throws

We have all seen Griff play well when he gets help up front

I think he is better suited at safety.. But he is our second best corner and that kinda sucks

kevoncox
09-28-2008, 08:46 PM
"V4L" wrote:


"ultravikingfan" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Its the system

The CBs cant stay with a WR for 4-5 seconds


Come on, you build your system depending on the players/talent you have.
If you have talent you can press and go man a lot (GB & Chicago).
If you do not have it you go zone (us).





Yes im aware

But when you give a vet QB 3-5 solid seconds to throw the ball he will make good throws

We have all seen Griff play well when he gets help up front

I think he is better suited at safety.. But he is our second best corner and that kinda sucks


He is best suited off this team!

V4L
09-28-2008, 08:49 PM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


"ultravikingfan" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Its the system

The CBs cant stay with a WR for 4-5 seconds


Come on, you build your system depending on the players/talent you have.
If you have talent you can press and go man a lot (GB & Chicago).
If you do not have it you go zone (us).





Yes im aware

But when you give a vet QB 3-5 solid seconds to throw the ball he will make good throws

We have all seen Griff play well when he gets help up front

I think he is better suited at safety.. But he is our second best corner and that kinda sucks


He is best suited off this team!



Although I like Gordan I am much more comfortable with Cedric there

Gordan will be a stud in a few years though

He keeps improving

vikes2456
09-28-2008, 09:11 PM
Whatever happened to McCauley?

Yfz01
09-28-2008, 09:20 PM
Griffin is not good, and he never has been good, and he never will be good.
He is not the second best corner on our team, in my opinion. He can not play man, he seems to get lazy after the first five or so yards.
Trailing with no effort, until they catch it. Even when in position he still gives up the plays.

Formo
09-28-2008, 09:59 PM
Griffin looked alot like Smoot did.
And Winfield even looks like Smoot did from time to time.

I'm beginning to think this is more a coverage system problem versus personnel problem.
Not sure.

But, to defend Griffin, teams are picking on him...
Yeah, he didn't do great versus the Colts, but, please, remind me, who do the Colts have at WR?
Certainly not Berrian, Wade, or Rice.

Wasn't Griffin covering Steve Smith a bit last week?
Last I checked, Smith didn't do much.

I think Griffin is an average starting CB in the NFL.
Sometimes has brilliant plays, sometimes not.
Still have yet to see if that's just the coverage he's in or if it's his physical abilities.

Purple Floyd
09-28-2008, 10:08 PM
"Formo" wrote:


Griffin looked alot like Smoot did.
And Winfield even looks like Smoot did from time to time.

I'm beginning to think this is more a coverage system problem versus personnel problem.
Not sure.

But, to defend Griffin, teams are picking on him...
Yeah, he didn't do great versus the Colts, but, please, remind me, who do the Colts have at WR?
Certainly not Berrian, Wade, or Rice.

Wasn't Griffin covering Steve Smith a bit last week?
Last I checked, Smith didn't do much.

I think Griffin is an average starting CB in the NFL.
Sometimes has brilliant plays, sometimes not.
Still have yet to see if that's just the coverage he's in or if it's his physical abilities.


You are correct.

Some people seem to have forgotten that in the previous 2 games VS the colts, Manning had 8 TD's and about 800 yards passing. We were not going to shut him out, he is too good. But we did do a great job of containing him into the third quarter. Then the D got tired because we kept going 3 and out and the secondary got fatigued and they capitalized.

Griff had smith some of the time but I know they made an effort to put Winny on him pretty frequently.

We just don't have the personnel to play bump and run with a safety over the top and if the rush isn't there we are going to yield yards.

DustinDupont
09-28-2008, 10:54 PM
"vikes2456" wrote:


Whatever happened to McCauley?


Inactive

kevoncox
09-28-2008, 11:03 PM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Formo" wrote:


Griffin looked alot like Smoot did.
And Winfield even looks like Smoot did from time to time.

I'm beginning to think this is more a coverage system problem versus personnel problem.
Not sure.

But, to defend Griffin, teams are picking on him...
Yeah, he didn't do great versus the Colts, but, please, remind me, who do the Colts have at WR?
Certainly not Berrian, Wade, or Rice.

Wasn't Griffin covering Steve Smith a bit last week?
Last I checked, Smith didn't do much.

I think Griffin is an average starting CB in the NFL.
Sometimes has brilliant plays, sometimes not.
Still have yet to see if that's just the coverage he's in or if it's his physical abilities.


You are correct.

Some people seem to have forgotten that in the previous 2 games VS the colts, Manning had 8 TD's and about 800 yards passing. We were not going to shut him out, he is too good. But we did do a great job of containing him into the third quarter. Then the D got tired because we kept going 3 and out and the secondary got fatigued and they capitalized.

Griff had smith some of the time but I know they made an effort to put Winny on him pretty frequently.

We just don't have the personnel to play bump and run with a safety over the top and if the rush isn't there we are going to yield yards.


I call bullshit.
1) Peyton's Oline was decimated. They had a rookie guard playing Lt our somthing like that.
2) Griffen still got man handled in the carolina game. Do you remmebr steve smith had over 60 yards in the first half. He was punshing Griffen.
3) Griffen is always late to react to the comeback. He is never, ever there. He is always bailing. when that 5 yard catch is always there, teasm will take it. He stinks. Period, at 6'0....he gets out muscled and out jumped when the ball is in the air. Kevin Curtis played beat him last year.

VikingsTw
09-28-2008, 11:04 PM
"Formo" wrote:


Griffin looked alot like Smoot did.
And Winfield even looks like Smoot did from time to time.

I'm beginning to think this is more a coverage system problem versus personnel problem.
Not sure.

But, to defend Griffin, teams are picking on him...
Yeah, he didn't do great versus the Colts, but, please, remind me, who do the Colts have at WR?
Certainly not Berrian, Wade, or Rice.

Wasn't Griffin covering Steve Smith a bit last week?
Last I checked, Smith didn't do much.

I think Griffin is an average starting CB in the NFL.
Sometimes has brilliant plays, sometimes not.
Still have yet to see if that's just the coverage he's in or if it's his physical abilities.


Smoot and Winfield shouldn't be compared at all, Winfield has been a tremendous player since he was FA signing back with Tice. This year Winfield has been very solid aside from the Packer game. I think he had his hands on two passess today and eventually they went away from him just like Peyton Manning did. Why pass on Winfield's side of field if the opposing side is always an option? These WR's are consistently getting seperation from Griffin and I have a hard time covering his @ss by blaming the system. The Cover 2 is run around the league by several teams who play it well.

Anthony Gonzales was the WR who made Griffin look silly, he's a good WR but I just don't think Griffin is on the level he needs to be, he has lots of work to do on his technique and confidence.

In the Panthers game we used everyone to cover Steve Smith, I thought Winfield would be lined up all day on him but we didn't change anything in terms of the scheme. On the first play of the game he gave up a good chunck then added 15 because he overpersued on the tackle grabing the face mask resulting in field goal position.

Griffin is brillant in terms of tackling and laying very solid hits, he might have a future at backup safety if he can't iron these issues out. Ability wise he has everything a CB needs but he's got to start making some plays on the ball, something that is rare for him.

I can't remeber the last time we actually had a coverage sack the past three years, we had several when Cotrell was cordinator. I think its going to very hard to get pressure on the QB everytime he throws the ball, meaning we need to make plays on the back end.

VikingsTw
09-28-2008, 11:11 PM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Formo" wrote:


Griffin looked alot like Smoot did.
And Winfield even looks like Smoot did from time to time.

I'm beginning to think this is more a coverage system problem versus personnel problem.
Not sure.

But, to defend Griffin, teams are picking on him...
Yeah, he didn't do great versus the Colts, but, please, remind me, who do the Colts have at WR?
Certainly not Berrian, Wade, or Rice.

Wasn't Griffin covering Steve Smith a bit last week?
Last I checked, Smith didn't do much.

I think Griffin is an average starting CB in the NFL.
Sometimes has brilliant plays, sometimes not.
Still have yet to see if that's just the coverage he's in or if it's his physical abilities.


You are correct.

Some people seem to have forgotten that in the previous 2 games VS the colts, Manning had 8 TD's and about 800 yards passing. We were not going to shut him out, he is too good. But we did do a great job of containing him into the third quarter. Then the D got tired because we kept going 3 and out and the secondary got fatigued and they capitalized.

Griff had smith some of the time but I know they made an effort to put Winny on him pretty frequently.

We just don't have the personnel to play bump and run with a safety over the top and if the rush isn't there we are going to yield yards.


I call kaka del rio.
1) Peyton's Oline was decimated. They had a rookie guard playing Lt our somthing like that.
2) Griffen still got man handled in the carolina game. Do you remmebr steve smith had over 60 yards in the first half. He was punshing Griffen.
3) Griffen is always late to react to the comeback. He is never, ever there. He is always bailing. when that 5 yard catch is always there, teasm will take it. He stinks. Period, at 6'0....he gets out muscled and out jumped when the ball is in the air. Kevin Curtis played beat him last year.


Very slow to react to the comeback, he needs be fluid in his plant and drive, some of the times he nearly falls down. This CB position is very very difficult in the NFL but he needs to atleast make some plays, possible an INT or anything to make QB's think twice. Right now its openfield unless we get automatic pressure to protect him.

Drew Brees will be licking his chops after film session this week, I really hope Griffin is just in a slump and he can overcome this but I don't think it looks good.

ragz
09-28-2008, 11:46 PM
on 3rd down, why would you throw anywhere else but at griffin.
another guy that gets way too much support.
its no accident he is rarely near the football.

V4L
09-28-2008, 11:58 PM
I just wanna see Cedric get a pick

Just 1 interception please

It's his job

HEY
09-29-2008, 04:07 AM
I like Sapp too and I think we should try starting him in the next game instead of Griffin. Griffin has been disappointing and he'll never be a great corner in the NFL, use him at safety insead. That was his position in college.

El Vikingo
09-29-2008, 04:09 AM
"V4L" wrote:




The CBs cant stay with a WR for 4-5 seconds



Wrong!! ,the CB of our opponents always can.

El Vikingo
09-29-2008, 05:34 AM
The Griffin stuff started worrying me during half of last season.That "prevent" defense he plays giving the wide rec. a couple of yards
is always useless,producing fair catches by the opp and
a carrer as a Viking with a shitty 1 int in 30 games. ::)

Purple Floyd
09-29-2008, 03:20 PM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Formo" wrote:


Griffin looked alot like Smoot did.
And Winfield even looks like Smoot did from time to time.

I'm beginning to think this is more a coverage system problem versus personnel problem.
Not sure.

But, to defend Griffin, teams are picking on him...
Yeah, he didn't do great versus the Colts, but, please, remind me, who do the Colts have at WR?
Certainly not Berrian, Wade, or Rice.

Wasn't Griffin covering Steve Smith a bit last week?
Last I checked, Smith didn't do much.

I think Griffin is an average starting CB in the NFL.
Sometimes has brilliant plays, sometimes not.
Still have yet to see if that's just the coverage he's in or if it's his physical abilities.


You are correct.

Some people seem to have forgotten that in the previous 2 games VS the colts, Manning had 8 TD's and about 800 yards passing. We were not going to shut him out, he is too good. But we did do a great job of containing him into the third quarter. Then the D got tired because we kept going 3 and out and the secondary got fatigued and they capitalized.

Griff had smith some of the time but I know they made an effort to put Winny on him pretty frequently.

We just don't have the personnel to play bump and run with a safety over the top and if the rush isn't there we are going to yield yards.


I call bullshit.
1) Peyton's Oline was decimated. They had a rookie guard playing Lt our somthing like that.
2) Griffen still got man handled in the carolina game. Do you remmebr steve smith had over 60 yards in the first half. He was punshing Griffen.
3) Griffen is always late to react to the comeback. He is never, ever there. He is always bailing. when that 5 yard catch is always there, teasm will take it. He stinks. Period, at 6'0....he gets out muscled and out jumped when the ball is in the air. Kevin Curtis played beat him last year.


You call bullshit on what there?

You think it is the personnel and not the system?

Then please enlighten me on the reason we have gone through 3 owners, 3 coaches, several DC's and numerous personnel since about 1996 and still get burned in coverage on a regular basis year in and year out?

It is not just the players.

nailhead77
09-29-2008, 03:48 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Formo" wrote:


Griffin looked alot like Smoot did.
And Winfield even looks like Smoot did from time to time.

I'm beginning to think this is more a coverage system problem versus personnel problem.
Not sure.

But, to defend Griffin, teams are picking on him...
Yeah, he didn't do great versus the Colts, but, please, remind me, who do the Colts have at WR?
Certainly not Berrian, Wade, or Rice.

Wasn't Griffin covering Steve Smith a bit last week?
Last I checked, Smith didn't do much.

I think Griffin is an average starting CB in the NFL.
Sometimes has brilliant plays, sometimes not.
Still have yet to see if that's just the coverage he's in or if it's his physical abilities.


You are correct.

Some people seem to have forgotten that in the previous 2 games VS the colts, Manning had 8 TD's and about 800 yards passing. We were not going to shut him out, he is too good. But we did do a great job of containing him into the third quarter. Then the D got tired because we kept going 3 and out and the secondary got fatigued and they capitalized.

Griff had smith some of the time but I know they made an effort to put Winny on him pretty frequently.

We just don't have the personnel to play bump and run with a safety over the top and if the rush isn't there we are going to yield yards.


I call kaka del rio.
1) Peyton's Oline was decimated. They had a rookie guard playing Lt our somthing like that.
2) Griffen still got man handled in the carolina game. Do you remmebr steve smith had over 60 yards in the first half. He was punshing Griffen.
3) Griffen is always late to react to the comeback. He is never, ever there. He is always bailing. when that 5 yard catch is always there, teasm will take it. He stinks. Period, at 6'0....he gets out muscled and out jumped when the ball is in the air. Kevin Curtis played beat him last year.


Very slow to react to the comeback, he needs be fluid in his plant and drive, some of the times he nearly falls down. This CB position is very very difficult in the NFL but he needs to atleast make some plays, possible an INT or anything to make QB's think twice. Right now its openfield unless we get automatic pressure to protect him.

Drew Brees will be licking his chops after film session this week, I really hope Griffin is just in a slump and he can overcome this but I don't think it looks good.




Thats what i see.
He seems to think everything is a go route, i dont know if we can fix it though.
when is the last time we had a decent pass defense?
Am i the only one here who gets nervous when we have a team in a 3rd and long situation?
Pass rush kinda stinks and the coverage........sad.

Mr-holland
09-29-2008, 03:50 PM
Griffin is a big Joke!

VikingsTw
09-29-2008, 05:05 PM
"nailhead77" wrote:


Thats what i see.
He seems to think everything is a go route, i dont know if we can fix it though.
when is the last time we had a decent pass defense?
Am i the only one here who gets nervous when we have a team in a 3rd and long situation?

Pass rush kinda stinks and the coverage........sad.


I'm not sure we have an immediate replacement either but if he continues to be loose in the coverage I wouldn't hesitate to put Gordon in the full time position. I like 3rd and long situations, 3rd and short are the ones I worry about because its rare the pass rush gets there with a 3 step drop and no coverage on the left side.

Because we have pass rush this season we get off the field on third and longs often because the passess are short and we have great tacklers. I don't think we are far from fixing our coverage issues if Medua Williams can stay healthy at FS and Tyrell Johnson can play SS. I don't know if Griffin will ever turn out but Winfield has one more solid season at least.

We need Ray Edwards back, he is very close to Allen in terms of pressure.

kevoncox
09-29-2008, 06:01 PM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Formo" wrote:


Griffin looked alot like Smoot did.
And Winfield even looks like Smoot did from time to time.

I'm beginning to think this is more a coverage system problem versus personnel problem.
Not sure.

But, to defend Griffin, teams are picking on him...
Yeah, he didn't do great versus the Colts, but, please, remind me, who do the Colts have at WR?
Certainly not Berrian, Wade, or Rice.

Wasn't Griffin covering Steve Smith a bit last week?
Last I checked, Smith didn't do much.

I think Griffin is an average starting CB in the NFL.
Sometimes has brilliant plays, sometimes not.
Still have yet to see if that's just the coverage he's in or if it's his physical abilities.


You are correct.

Some people seem to have forgotten that in the previous 2 games VS the colts, Manning had 8 TD's and about 800 yards passing. We were not going to shut him out, he is too good. But we did do a great job of containing him into the third quarter. Then the D got tired because we kept going 3 and out and the secondary got fatigued and they capitalized.

Griff had smith some of the time but I know they made an effort to put Winny on him pretty frequently.

We just don't have the personnel to play bump and run with a safety over the top and if the rush isn't there we are going to yield yards.


I call kaka del rio.
1) Peyton's Oline was decimated. They had a rookie guard playing Lt our somthing like that.
2) Griffen still got man handled in the carolina game. Do you remmebr steve smith had over 60 yards in the first half. He was punshing Griffen.
3) Griffen is always late to react to the comeback. He is never, ever there. He is always bailing. when that 5 yard catch is always there, teasm will take it. He stinks. Period, at 6'0....he gets out muscled and out jumped when the ball is in the air. Kevin Curtis played beat him last year.


You call kaka del rio on what there?

You think it is the personnel and not the system?

Then please enlighten me on the reason we have gone through 3 owners, 3 coaches, several DC's and numerous personnel since about 1996 and still get burned in coverage on a regular basis year in and year out?

It is not just the players.


Yet, we still have the same issue. We havent been running the same system under these DCs and owners, so how can it be the system? The issue is very specific to this system vs. this player. Winfield is batting down passes on the other side. He is always a split second away from picking it off or batting it down. Ced is always slipping, always off balance, always coming back late with an arm tackle. When he made that big his last game i spit out soda.

Ced's issue is he is slow footed and ave bad hips...
His problem with this slow footedness forces him to play off the line more. His cushion still gets broken but
which forces him to open up. The WR plants and coems back and he is too slow to recover. This is why he sees about 5 comebacks thrown to his side a game. Even worst is the double move. It's his Krytonite

ragz
09-29-2008, 11:17 PM
griffin stinks.
but not for nothing, where is this great defense we were gonna have.
griff is a part of the problem but come on.
i mean, i understand we gave the titans short fields yesterday, but do we have to give up 3 tds on 4 of their oppurtunites.
they obviously were better in the 2nd half, but collins wasn't exactly accurate and probably missed a few plays that were there.
not surprisingly on griffs side.
most of our problems are offensively, but if we were the force on defense that most of us thought we were gonna be, we could be 3-1.
tennesse is the perfect example.
their defense has been better than ours and they are 4-0.
its not like they have been winning with great offense, which we saw first hand yesterday.
its another example of maybe the talent not being put in the best positions to be successful.
either that or we severely over rate ourselves.

singersp
09-30-2008, 06:08 AM
Cedric Griffin Not Cutting It

I'm just sitting back in my chair laughing & saying to myself. "Singer, have you not been preaching this for over 2 years?"

Griffin is not as good as the people who wanted Smoot gone & Cedric to start make him out to be. Part of the problem is the cover2 scheme we play that depends on the pressure that is supposed to come from the front 4. When that pressure is not there, you can't continue to constantly have your DB's play 10 yards off their WR. The result will be exactly what you are seeing, pass after pass being caught & the ball being moved downfield.

I understand the concept of what the cover2 is supposed to do, but when a WR catches a ball on Winfield's side of the field, he's usually right there to make the tackle, where as Griffin is still, 5-7 yards off of his man.

digital420
09-30-2008, 07:21 AM
"singersp" wrote:



Cedric Griffin Not Cutting It

I'm just sitting back in my chair laughing & saying to myself. "Singer, have you not been preaching this for over 2 years?"

Griffin is not as good as the people who wanted Smoot gone & Cedric to start make him out to be. Part of the problem is the cover2 scheme we play that depends on the pressure that is supposed to come from the front 4. When that pressure is not there, you can't continue to constantly have your DB's play 10 yards off their WR. The result will be exactly what you are seeing, pass after pass being caught & the ball being moved downfield.

I understand the concept of what the cover2 is supposed to do, but when a WR catches a ball on Winfield's side of the field, he's usually right there to make the tackle, where as Griffin is still, 5-7 yards off of his man.


In most of this I agree with you singer. though i think that winfield has the advantage of years experience in playing this position at this level where griffen is just learning how to be a better corner. Will he pan out, I do believe so. some of te issues i've seen is that he goes for the big hit a lot, or he gets beat by not approaching the wr to break up the play at the point of the catch, instead making the tackle. There are many lessons he will be learning.. and unfortunatly he will be picked on by every O cordinator we face until he is considered a threat istead of an option.


DiGiTaL

Purple Floyd
09-30-2008, 07:43 AM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Formo" wrote:


Griffin looked alot like Smoot did.
And Winfield even looks like Smoot did from time to time.

I'm beginning to think this is more a coverage system problem versus personnel problem.
Not sure.

But, to defend Griffin, teams are picking on him...
Yeah, he didn't do great versus the Colts, but, please, remind me, who do the Colts have at WR?
Certainly not Berrian, Wade, or Rice.

Wasn't Griffin covering Steve Smith a bit last week?
Last I checked, Smith didn't do much.

I think Griffin is an average starting CB in the NFL.
Sometimes has brilliant plays, sometimes not.
Still have yet to see if that's just the coverage he's in or if it's his physical abilities.


You are correct.

Some people seem to have forgotten that in the previous 2 games VS the colts, Manning had 8 TD's and about 800 yards passing. We were not going to shut him out, he is too good. But we did do a great job of containing him into the third quarter. Then the D got tired because we kept going 3 and out and the secondary got fatigued and they capitalized.

Griff had smith some of the time but I know they made an effort to put Winny on him pretty frequently.

We just don't have the personnel to play bump and run with a safety over the top and if the rush isn't there we are going to yield yards.


I call kaka del rio.
1) Peyton's Oline was decimated. They had a rookie guard playing Lt our somthing like that.
2) Griffen still got man handled in the carolina game. Do you remmebr steve smith had over 60 yards in the first half. He was punshing Griffen.
3) Griffen is always late to react to the comeback. He is never, ever there. He is always bailing. when that 5 yard catch is always there, teasm will take it. He stinks. Period, at 6'0....he gets out muscled and out jumped when the ball is in the air. Kevin Curtis played beat him last year.


You call kaka del rio on what there?

You think it is the personnel and not the system?

Then please enlighten me on the reason we have gone through 3 owners, 3 coaches, several DC's and numerous personnel since about 1996 and still get burned in coverage on a regular basis year in and year out?

It is not just the players.


Yet, we still have the same issue. We havent been running the same system under these DCs and owners, so how can it be the system? The issue is very specific to this system vs. this player. Winfield is batting down passes on the other side. He is always a split second away from picking it off or batting it down. Ced is always slipping, always off balance, always coming back late with an arm tackle. When he made that big his last game i spit out soda.

Ced's issue is he is slow footed and ave bad hips...
His problem with this slow footedness forces him to play off the line more. His cushion still gets broken but
which forces him to open up. The WR plants and coems back and he is too slow to recover. This is why he sees about 5 comebacks thrown to his side a game. Even worst is the double move. It's his Krytonite


We have had different DC's, but as long as I remember we have been running the cover 2 defense. Do you remember differently? I have no recollection of running anything different like a 4-6 or a 3-4 defense for decades if ever.

What were those systems we were running from the time Dungy left until now?

singersp
09-30-2008, 07:59 AM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


What were those systems we were running from the time Dungy left until now?


Under Cottrell, he was running the "I haven't got a fucking clue what I am doing" defense. Known by some here as the "FC" or "Fucking Clueless" defense.

midgensa
09-30-2008, 08:27 AM
I think for anyone to use the "it's the system argument" is a little silly in this case. Winfield is in the same system and not getting dusted on every single out route.
Griffin might be the best option we have ... I don't know ... but I would like to see Sapp out there and given his shot. And what happened to McCauley? Maybe he could get a look.
We ARE getting pressure on QBs ... not as much as I would like, but it is there ... so the CBs need to be able to handle out routes and hitches ... that is the whole point of the Cover 2. Get in the QBs face, force either a deep throw to the safeties or a hitch, out to the corners and have em covered.
Griffin is obviously a hard hitter ... which comes in handy at times ... and maybe he has the talent to be a full-time starter in the NFL. But right now he is definitely one of the (if not the weakest) weaker links on this defense.

bleedpurple
09-30-2008, 09:04 AM
"singersp" wrote:



Cedric Griffin Not Cutting It

I'm just sitting back in my chair laughing & saying to myself. "Singer, have you not been preaching this for over 2 years?"

Griffin is not as good as the people who wanted Smoot gone & Cedric to start make him out to be. Part of the problem is the cover2 scheme we play that depends on the pressure that is supposed to come from the front 4. When that pressure is not there, you can't continue to constantly have your DB's play 10 yards off their WR. The result will be exactly what you are seeing, pass after pass being caught & the ball being moved downfield.

I understand the concept of what the cover2 is supposed to do, but when a WR catches a ball on Winfield's side of the field, he's usually right there to make the tackle, where as Griffin is still, 5-7 yards off of his man.


Half the time Griffin gets cooked it's in man coverage.. they don't play cover 2 everytime!!... the only way to effectively attack the cover 2 is with corner routes.. you very rarely see teams completing corner routes on us....

i_bleed_purple
09-30-2008, 09:39 AM
"digital420" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:



Cedric Griffin Not Cutting It

I'm just sitting back in my chair laughing & saying to myself. "Singer, have you not been preaching this for over 2 years?"

Griffin is not as good as the people who wanted Smoot gone & Cedric to start make him out to be. Part of the problem is the cover2 scheme we play that depends on the pressure that is supposed to come from the front 4. When that pressure is not there, you can't continue to constantly have your DB's play 10 yards off their WR. The result will be exactly what you are seeing, pass after pass being caught & the ball being moved downfield.

I understand the concept of what the cover2 is supposed to do, but when a WR catches a ball on Winfield's side of the field, he's usually right there to make the tackle, where as Griffin is still, 5-7 yards off of his man.


In most of this I agree with you singer. though i think that winfield has the advantage of years experience in playing this position at this level where griffen is just learning how to be a better corner. Will he pan out, I do believe so. some of te issues i've seen is that he goes for the big hit a lot, or he gets beat by not approaching the wr to break up the play at the point of the catch, instead making the tackle. There are many lessons he will be learning.. and unfortunatly he will be picked on by every O cordinator we face until he is considered a threat istead of an option.


DiGiTaL


Griffin's been around for 3 years, if he can't grasp what to do by now, then he needs to go.
I've played defense, its not that complicated compared to offense, especially for a corner.

Purple D
09-30-2008, 09:43 AM
Maybe Griffin should be benched for a game or so,
With Sapp or Gordon taking his place,
if they play better he stays there and if they don't
maybe he will get the point that he is not irreplaceable and will get his act together and play like a starting CB is supposed to play.

i_bleed_purple
09-30-2008, 09:47 AM
I'd say saints game would be the game to try it.
Brees has the arm, but the recievers aren't terribly special.
Our offense has to come out strong though, because starting sapp could mean more than 25 points.

funkyasflea
09-30-2008, 10:48 AM
I thought he did great last year!
I was excited to see him this year, but I really think he has dropped the ball.
Every time his man catches it he is 5-10 yards away!!!!
He turns his head away from the receiver all the time!
When you are covering a guy you need to have your eyes on him or on the QB, most of the time he is looking at the spot he THINKS the route is going to.
Instead of thinking he needs to read the waistline of the receiver.

Marrdro
09-30-2008, 11:04 AM
I am right there with all of you who say this is a team/concept issue instead of a Griffin issue and I raise the bullshit flag against the guys who say Whinny played well on Sunday.

He gave up some nice passing yards early lest we forget.
Sharp (Choke Choke Puke) had to help him out on several passes that he was burned on.

Long story short, if our front four don't get pressure, we have to bring the LB's which expose our soft zones that our CB's give up to prevent deep passes.
Both Whinny and Griff are those types of CB's.
They are not CB's that work well out of press coverage.

Until Leslie can figure out how to use our front four to get to the QB (They got pressure 3 fricken times this weekend, 3 fricken times) the QB's will stand back there all damn day long and pick the CB's apart either across the middle or just throw the quick stuff that they give up in this scheme.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29583&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2008&week=REG4&override=true

Mr Anderson
09-30-2008, 11:08 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


I am right there with all of you who say this is a team/concept issue instead of a Griffin issue and I raise the bullshit flag against the guys who say Whinny played well on Sunday.

He gave up some nice passing yards early lest we forget.
Sharp (Choke Choke Puke) had to help him out on several passes that he was burned on.

Long story short, if our front four don't get pressure, we have to bring the LB's which expose our soft zones that our CB's give up to prevent deep passes.
Both Whinny and Griff are those types of CB's.
They are not CB's that work well out of press coverage.

Until Leslie can figure out how to use our front four to get to the QB (They got pressure 3 fricken times this weekend, 3 fricken times) the QB's will stand back there all damn day long and pick the CB's apart either across the middle or just throw the quick stuff that they give up in this scheme.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29583&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2008&week=REG4&override=true


I disagree with you on that point Marr.

I think they'll work very well out of the press, Cedric Griffin is a big corner, he's 6'0" 205 pounds, and everyone talks about how tough Winfield is, so lets see him show it. Line these guys up face to face with the closest receiver to their zone, jam them for the first 5 yards and drop back into their zone. The 5 yard jam off the line basically puts them back in position anyway.

Even if we try it and it fails, who cares? It's better than not doing anything at all. And I think it will work, Jared Allen said it himself earlier in the season(not in reference to the coverage scheme, just in general) that the extra .5-1 second will result in far more sacks.

I believe this is the week to try it, with Colston out, they don't have any big receivers that would be a risk to jam at the line besides Meachem, who even still is not that big or physical.

So like I said, try it. I'm sick of seeing the same old thing.

tastywaves
09-30-2008, 11:25 AM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Formo" wrote:


Griffin looked alot like Smoot did.
And Winfield even looks like Smoot did from time to time.

I'm beginning to think this is more a coverage system problem versus personnel problem.
Not sure.

But, to defend Griffin, teams are picking on him...
Yeah, he didn't do great versus the Colts, but, please, remind me, who do the Colts have at WR?
Certainly not Berrian, Wade, or Rice.

Wasn't Griffin covering Steve Smith a bit last week?
Last I checked, Smith didn't do much.

I think Griffin is an average starting CB in the NFL.
Sometimes has brilliant plays, sometimes not.
Still have yet to see if that's just the coverage he's in or if it's his physical abilities.


You are correct.

Some people seem to have forgotten that in the previous 2 games VS the colts, Manning had 8 TD's and about 800 yards passing. We were not going to shut him out, he is too good. But we did do a great job of containing him into the third quarter. Then the D got tired because we kept going 3 and out and the secondary got fatigued and they capitalized.

Griff had smith some of the time but I know they made an effort to put Winny on him pretty frequently.

We just don't have the personnel to play bump and run with a safety over the top and if the rush isn't there we are going to yield yards.


I call kaka del rio.
1) Peyton's Oline was decimated. They had a rookie guard playing Lt our somthing like that.
2) Griffen still got man handled in the carolina game. Do you remmebr steve smith had over 60 yards in the first half. He was punshing Griffen.
3) Griffen is always late to react to the comeback. He is never, ever there. He is always bailing. when that 5 yard catch is always there, teasm will take it. He stinks. Period, at 6'0....he gets out muscled and out jumped when the ball is in the air. Kevin Curtis played beat him last year.


You call kaka del rio on what there?

You think it is the personnel and not the system?

Then please enlighten me on the reason we have gone through 3 owners, 3 coaches, several DC's and numerous personnel since about 1996 and still get burned in coverage on a regular basis year in and year out?

It is not just the players.


You're right UffDa, its not just the players.
This is a systematic problem and not so much an individual player issue.
Same can be said about our passing offense.

ThorSPL
09-30-2008, 11:50 AM
I don't like our schemes, I don't like our play calling.... I don't like... OUR COACHING

/rant off

Marrdro
09-30-2008, 11:56 AM
"Mr" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


I am right there with all of you who say this is a team/concept issue instead of a Griffin issue and I raise the kaka del rio flag against the guys who say Whinny played well on Sunday.

He gave up some nice passing yards early lest we forget.
Sharp (Choke Choke Puke) had to help him out on several passes that he was burned on.

Long story short, if our front four don't get pressure, we have to bring the LB's which expose our soft zones that our CB's give up to prevent deep passes.
Both Whinny and Griff are those types of CB's.
They are not CB's that work well out of press coverage.

Until Leslie can figure out how to use our front four to get to the QB (They got pressure 3 fricken times this weekend, 3 fricken times) the QB's will stand back there all gol 'darnit day long and pick the CB's apart either across the middle or just throw the quick stuff that they give up in this scheme.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29583&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2008&week=REG4&override=true


I disagree with you on that point Marr.

I think they'll work very well out of the press, Cedric Griffin is a big corner, he's 6'0" 205 pounds, and everyone talks about how tough Winfield is, so lets see him show it. Line these guys up face to face with the closest receiver to their zone, jam them for the first 5 yards and drop back into their zone. The 5 yard jam off the line basically puts them back in position anyway.

Even if we try it and it fails, who cares? It's better than not doing anything at all. And I think it will work, Jared Allen said it himself earlier in the season(not in reference to the coverage scheme, just in general) that the extra .5-1 second will result in far more sacks.

I believe this is the week to try it, with Colston out, they don't have any big receivers that would be a risk to jam at the line besides Meachem, who even still is not that big or physical.

So like I said, try it. I'm sick of seeing the same old thing.

LOL, I was kindof being a bit facetious there when it comes to Whinny and Griff.

Truth be told I really like what Griff has/is been doing especially when he is allowed to press, which we have been seeing alot more of lately.

I got to pay alot of attention to what the both of them were doing in the game from my vantage point.
Our issue isn't with the CB's or the DL or the LB or the S but rather how they are disguising what they are gonna do pre-snap.


Seems to me that they really need to do a bit better job with regard to what they are showing, especially in long snap counts.

i_bleed_purple
09-30-2008, 12:01 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


I am right there with all of you who say this is a team/concept issue instead of a Griffin issue and I raise the kaka del rio flag against the guys who say Whinny played well on Sunday.

He gave up some nice passing yards early lest we forget.
Sharp (Choke Choke Puke) had to help him out on several passes that he was burned on.

Long story short, if our front four don't get pressure, we have to bring the LB's which expose our soft zones that our CB's give up to prevent deep passes.
Both Whinny and Griff are those types of CB's.
They are not CB's that work well out of press coverage.

Until Leslie can figure out how to use our front four to get to the QB (They got pressure 3 fricken times this weekend, 3 fricken times) the QB's will stand back there all gol 'darnit day long and pick the CB's apart either across the middle or just throw the quick stuff that they give up in this scheme.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29583&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2008&week=REG4&override=true


I disagree with you on that point Marr.

I think they'll work very well out of the press, Cedric Griffin is a big corner, he's 6'0" 205 pounds, and everyone talks about how tough Winfield is, so lets see him show it. Line these guys up face to face with the closest receiver to their zone, jam them for the first 5 yards and drop back into their zone. The 5 yard jam off the line basically puts them back in position anyway.

Even if we try it and it fails, who cares? It's better than not doing anything at all. And I think it will work, Jared Allen said it himself earlier in the season(not in reference to the coverage scheme, just in general) that the extra .5-1 second will result in far more sacks.

I believe this is the week to try it, with Colston out, they don't have any big receivers that would be a risk to jam at the line besides Meachem, who even still is not that big or physical.

So like I said, try it. I'm sick of seeing the same old thing.

LOL, I was kindof being a bit facetious there when it comes to Whinny and Griff.

Truth be told I really like what Griff has/is been doing especially when he is allowed to press, which we have been seeing alot more of lately.

I got to pay alot of attention to what the both of them were doing in the game from my vantage point.
Our issue isn't with the CB's or the DL or the LB or the S but rather how they are disguising what they are gonna do pre-snap.


Seems to me that they really need to do a bit better job with regard to what they are showing, especially in long snap counts.


I agree 100%
it really gives me that warm fuzzy feeling when Griffin lines up 10 yards back, but isn't quick enough to catch up to a reciever on a stop route.
Countless times taht he's 7 yards away when the reciever catches the ball, and makes a move and gains another 3 can be ignored, because Griffin is doing really well!
Point: Carolina game:
almost all passes to Steve Smith were completed on Griffin, I dont think many were completed on Winfield.

Marrdro
09-30-2008, 12:04 PM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


I am right there with all of you who say this is a team/concept issue instead of a Griffin issue and I raise the kaka del rio flag against the guys who say Whinny played well on Sunday.

He gave up some nice passing yards early lest we forget.
Sharp (Choke Choke Puke) had to help him out on several passes that he was burned on.

Long story short, if our front four don't get pressure, we have to bring the LB's which expose our soft zones that our CB's give up to prevent deep passes.
Both Whinny and Griff are those types of CB's.
They are not CB's that work well out of press coverage.

Until Leslie can figure out how to use our front four to get to the QB (They got pressure 3 fricken times this weekend, 3 fricken times) the QB's will stand back there all gol 'darnit day long and pick the CB's apart either across the middle or just throw the quick stuff that they give up in this scheme.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29583&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2008&week=REG4&override=true


I disagree with you on that point Marr.

I think they'll work very well out of the press, Cedric Griffin is a big corner, he's 6'0" 205 pounds, and everyone talks about how tough Winfield is, so lets see him show it. Line these guys up face to face with the closest receiver to their zone, jam them for the first 5 yards and drop back into their zone. The 5 yard jam off the line basically puts them back in position anyway.

Even if we try it and it fails, who cares? It's better than not doing anything at all. And I think it will work, Jared Allen said it himself earlier in the season(not in reference to the coverage scheme, just in general) that the extra .5-1 second will result in far more sacks.

I believe this is the week to try it, with Colston out, they don't have any big receivers that would be a risk to jam at the line besides Meachem, who even still is not that big or physical.

So like I said, try it. I'm sick of seeing the same old thing.

LOL, I was kindof being a bit facetious there when it comes to Whinny and Griff.

Truth be told I really like what Griff has/is been doing especially when he is allowed to press, which we have been seeing alot more of lately.

I got to pay alot of attention to what the both of them were doing in the game from my vantage point.
Our issue isn't with the CB's or the DL or the LB or the S but rather how they are disguising what they are gonna do pre-snap.


Seems to me that they really need to do a bit better job with regard to what they are showing, especially in long snap counts.


I agree 100%
it really gives me that warm fuzzy feeling when Griffin lines up 10 yards back, but isn't quick enough to catch up to a reciever on a stop route.
Countless times taht he's 7 yards away when the reciever catches the ball, and makes a move and gains another 3 can be ignored, because Griffin is doing really well!
Point: Carolina game:
almost all passes to Steve Smith were completed on Griffin, I dont think many were completed on Winfield.

Excellent point with respect to the cushion, however, lets not forget that the LB should help with that short stuff by being in the passing lane to take that away.
Problem is that LB is being sent into the gaps to get pressure on the QB (same old story pre-Allen).

Again, is it just one guy or is it the scheme?

By the way, did you look at the box score and how many long passes were given up on Whinny's side of the ball?
Its easy, just look at the completions and look for either Whinny or Sharp making the tackle.
That side of the ball Sunday gave up thier fair share.

vike_mike
09-30-2008, 12:43 PM
UffDaVikes, V4L
are exactly right.
It is a systematic problem, but it doesn't help that Cedric runs a 4.7 in the 40 either.
He is not going to be able to stay with WR for longer than 3-4 secs.
But 50% of the blame has to go to the line for not getting our rush on.
Last year, I saw so much penetration behind the line, that noone could even think about running against us.
The Giants game is a perfect example as is the Cowboys game even though we lost that one.
We are not getting that push that we need.
R Edwards said he wants to get the NFL sack record.
Please!
Does he even have a sack yet?
This is game 5 and if he has one, it is just one.
This is unexceptable.
But I believe that the defense feeds off of the offense too.
We need to pull our head out of our behinds and get it done now.
It had better get done or we won't have to talk about people getting fired, we will talk about who is going to replace the departed.

Del Rio
09-30-2008, 01:02 PM
Not a big fan of the LB coverage scheme. Granted they have improved to a point, but they still leave a lot to be desired. I would be much more eager to point my finger at the scheme in regards to our LB's then to any one particular DB.

VikingsTw
09-30-2008, 01:47 PM
Well if its a systamatic issue like some would like to say it won't matter who is playing DB. IMO its only obvious this dude is not getting the job done, How many times did Collins look to Winfields side of the field and decide not to throw it or throw it away? We got Mardro over here saying Winfield's not playing that great either, I disagree huge and this is how I know Griffin is getting smoked so badly. Winfield got beat by Justin Gage in man on man coverage when a 6 man blitz couldn't get to the QB, thats the only time I rember him giving up chuncks vs the Titans. I will also go back the Colts game where consistent pressure was brought all day long and Griffin was still burned all day long, he was also burned at times during the Carolina game, he also overpursues on his angles getting himself in trouble or taking one of teamates out of the play.

I think its quite silly to sit here and defend Griffin with the excuse of the system. Our front 4 pressure has been much better than last year yet Griffin is playing worse than last season. There's alot of Football left to be played this season so he has a chance to redeam himself but I think we're going to see alot more of it Vs the Saints. The only way to protect him is get instintanias pressure on the QB at all times, this doesn't happen for any team. Winfield has at one INT this season, nearly two, he's also had his hands on the few passess yet he hardly gets thrown at, Griffin on the other hand hasn't touched a pass since pre-season. He is making zero plays on the football and untill he does he will be the weakest link on our defensive squad.

tastywaves
09-30-2008, 02:54 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


Well if its a systamatic issue like some would like to say it won't matter who is playing DB. IMO its only obvious this dude is not getting the job done, How many times did Collins look to Winfields side of the field and decide not to throw it or throw it away? We got Mardro over here saying Winfield's not playing that great either, I disagree huge and this is how I know Griffin is getting smoked so badly. Winfield got beat by Justin Gage in man on man coverage when a 6 man blitz couldn't get to the QB, thats the only time I rember him giving up chuncks vs the Titans. I will also go back the Colts game where consistent pressure was brought all day long and Griffin was still burned all day long, he was also burned at times during the Carolina game, he also overpursues on his angles getting himself in trouble or taking one of teamates out of the play.

I think its quite silly to sit here and defend Griffin with the excuse of the system. Our front 4 pressure has been much better than last year yet Griffin is playing worse than last season. There's alot of Football left to be played this season so he has a chance to redeam himself but I think we're going to see alot more of it Vs the Saints. The only way to protect him is get instintanias pressure on the QB at all times, this doesn't happen for any team. Winfield has at one INT this season, nearly two, he's also had his hands on the few passess yet he hardly gets thrown at, Griffin on the other hand hasn't touched a pass since pre-season. He is making zero plays on the football and untill he does he will be the weakest link on our defensive squad.



1st Quarter

expand [+]
collapse [-]
Tennessee Titans at 15:00


2-1-TEN 33 (14:21) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 12-J.Gage to MIN 49 for 18 yards (23-C.Griffin, 25-T.Johnson).
2-6-MIN 45 (13:09) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 28-C.Johnson.
3-6-MIN 45 (13:05) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass deep left to 19-J.McCareins to MIN 29 for 16 yards (23-C.Griffin).
2-4-MIN 23 (11:52) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 81-B.Jones to MIN 10 for 13 yards (52-C.Greenway, 42-D.Sharper).
2-9-MIN 9 (10:52) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 28-C.Johnson to MIN 2 for 7 yards (52-C.Greenway, 26-A.Winfield).
3-2-MIN 2 (10:13) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 88-C.Stevens.


Tennessee Titans at 08:43
1-10-MIN 33 (8:43) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 80-B.Scaife to MIN 31 for 2 yards (23-C.Griffin).
2-8-MIN 31 (8:07) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 19-J.McCareins (26-A.Winfield).
3-8-MIN 31 (7:59) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 81-B.Jones to MIN 25 for 6 yards (26-A.Winfield). PENALTY on MIN-69-J.Allen, Defensive Offside, 5 yards, enforced at MIN 31 - No Play.
3-3-MIN 26 (7:35) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 19-J.McCareins to MIN 15 for 11 yards (23-C.Griffin, 52-C.Greenway).


Tennessee Titans at 14:53
1-10-TEN 27 (14:48) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 19-J.McCareins.
2-10-TEN 27 (14:42) 5-K.Collins pass deep middle to 12-J.Gage to MIN 45 for 28 yards (25-T.Johnson, 26-A.Winfield).
2-8-MIN 43 (13:21) 5-K.Collins pass deep right to 12-J.Gage to MIN 18 for 25 yards (42-D.Sharper). Penalty on MIN-69-J.Allen, Defensive Offside, declined.
2-10-MIN 18 (12:10) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short middle to 28-C.Johnson to MIN 13 for 5 yards (93-K.Williams).

Tennessee Titans at 08:36
1-10-TEN 21 (8:36) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete deep left to 12-J.Gage.
3-3-TEN 39 (5:45) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 12-J.Gage.

Tennessee Titans at 05:28
2-11-MIN 12 (4:51) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right.
3-11-MIN 12 (4:44) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 81-B.Jones pushed ob at MIN 3 for 9 yards (41-C.Gordon).
4-2-MIN 3 (4:18) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 12-J.Gage to MIN 1 for 2 yards (26-A.Winfield, 96-B.Robison). Minnesota challenged the first down ruling, and the play was Upheld. (Timeout #2.)


Tennessee Titans at 00:48
1-10-TEN 31 (:43) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 28-C.Johnson to TEN 33 for 2 yards (26-A.Winfield).
2-8-TEN 33 (:23) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short middle to 80-B.Scaife to TEN 42 for 9 yards (41-C.Gordon, 52-C.Greenway).
Timeout #2 by TEN at 00:17.
1-10-TEN 42 (:17) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 19-J.McCareins.


Tennessee Titans at 12:30
3-3-TEN 32 (11:24) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 12-J.Gage.


Tennessee Titans at 09:39
2-8-TEN 38 (9:04) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 19-J.McCareins to TEN 48 for 10 yards (26-A.Winfield).
1-10-TEN 48 (8:24) 5-K.Collins pass deep left to 12-J.Gage to MIN 33 for 19 yards (56-E. J. Henderson, 42-D.Sharper).
2-8-MIN 31 (7:08) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short left to 28-C.Johnson (23-C.Griffin).
3-8-MIN 31 (7:04) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 19-J.McCareins (69-J.Allen).


Tennessee Titans at 04:00
3-6-TEN 24 (2:47) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 12-J.Gage [97-E.Wyms].

Tennessee Titans at 00:56
1-10-TEN 40 (:56) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 45-A.Hall to TEN 45 for 5 yards (51-B.Leber).
3-5-TEN 45 (15:00) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete deep left to 19-J.McCareins [69-J.Allen].


Tennessee Titans at 11:07
1-10-TEN 27 (11:07) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 80-B.Scaife pushed ob at TEN 33 for 6 yards (23-C.Griffin) [93-K.Williams].
2-4-TEN 33 (10:34) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short left to 19-J.McCareins.
3-4-TEN 33 (10:30) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short left to 19-J.McCareins.


Tennessee Titans at 06:00

2-7-MIN 44 (5:18) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short left to 12-J.Gage (26-A.Winfield).
3-7-MIN 44 (5:13) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 81-B.Jones to MIN 32 for 12 yards (23-C.Griffin).
3-15-MIN 37 (4:17) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete deep left to 81-B.Jones (42-D.Sharper).

The above is from: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/boxscore?game_id=29583&displayPage=tab_box_score&season=2008&week=REG4&override=true

I highlighted passes that resulted in 10yards or more on Griffin in red (or his side if name not called) and green for Winfield.

There were 4 on Griffin and 3 on Winfield.
A couple of those plays I believe fell more into the safeties responsibility, but hard to tell from a play by play listing so I left them in.
Also, if you look through the log, you'll notice that there are a fair amount of incompletions and minimal gains on both of them.

Overall, Collins went 18-35 for 199 yards.
They didn't exactly torch us in the air.
They played with a short field and made some key plays.


Not trying to make excuses for Griffin, but he is not the reason we lost this game and his play wasn't that far off from AW's.

VikingsTw
09-30-2008, 03:25 PM
That weird I only see two plays, one which I've explained over and over again, Pass to the middle of the field intended for Justin Gage. I believe Ben Leber and EJ were both sent on the blitz making it a 6 man blitz that didn't put pressure on the QB, it resulted in a 28 yard pass over the middle. The other ten yard pass I remeber vividly.

tastywaves
09-30-2008, 03:31 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


That weird I only see two plays, one which I've explained over and over again, Pass to the middle of the field intended for Justin Gage. I believe Ben Leber and EJ were both sent on the blitz making it a 6 man blitz that didn't put pressure on the QB, it resulted in a 28 yard pass over the middle. The other ten yard pass I remeber vividly.


Okay, if don't count plays made to Gage because of his supreme abilities, there were only two completions against Griffin that went for over 10 yards.
One for 16 yards and the other for 11.


Bobby Wade had just as much success against the titans db's.
But then again, he is a stud, and their db's suck.

V4L
09-30-2008, 03:33 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


That weird I only see two plays, one which I've explained over and over again, Pass to the middle of the field intended for Justin Gage. I believe Ben Leber and EJ were both sent on the blitz making it a 6 man blitz that didn't put pressure on the QB, it resulted in a 28 yard pass over the middle. The other ten yard pass I remeber vividly.


Okay, if don't count plays made to Gage because of his supreme abilities, there were only two completions against Griffin that went for over 10 yards.
One for 16 yards and the other for 11.


Bobby Wade had just as much success against the titans db's.
But then again, he is a stud, and their db's suck.



The same DB that leads the league in picks?

He was matched up on Wade a couple times and Wade got a couple grabs on him

VikingsTw
09-30-2008, 03:37 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


That weird I only see two plays, one which I've explained over and over again, Pass to the middle of the field intended for Justin Gage. I believe Ben Leber and EJ were both sent on the blitz making it a 6 man blitz that didn't put pressure on the QB, it resulted in a 28 yard pass over the middle. The other ten yard pass I remeber vividly.


Okay, if don't count plays made to Gage because of his supreme abilities, there were only two completions against Griffin that went for over 10 yards.
One for 16 yards and the other for 11.


Bobby Wade had just as much success against the titans db's.
But then again, he is a stud, and their db's suck.


Huh? Lets ask Paul Allen, OHHHH he agrees with me and he has a great football mind. Enjoy.

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/MINNEAPOLIS-MN/KFAN-AM/PADUBAY092908_winfield-pod.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=MINNEAPOLIS-MN&NG_FORMAT=sports&SITE_ID=612&STATION_ID=KFAN-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=KFAN_AM_1130&PCAST_CAT=Sports_Radio&PCAST_TITLE=Purple_on_Demand_-_Vikings_Podcast

tastywaves
09-30-2008, 04:01 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


That weird I only see two plays, one which I've explained over and over again, Pass to the middle of the field intended for Justin Gage. I believe Ben Leber and EJ were both sent on the blitz making it a 6 man blitz that didn't put pressure on the QB, it resulted in a 28 yard pass over the middle. The other ten yard pass I remeber vividly.


Okay, if don't count plays made to Gage because of his supreme abilities, there were only two completions against Griffin that went for over 10 yards.
One for 16 yards and the other for 11.


Bobby Wade had just as much success against the titans db's.
But then again, he is a stud, and their db's suck.


Huh? Lets ask Paul Allen, OHHHH he agrees with me and he has a great football mind. Enjoy.

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/MINNEAPOLIS-MN/KFAN-AM/PADUBAY092908_winfield-pod.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=MINNEAPOLIS-MN&NG_FORMAT=sports&SITE_ID=612&STATION_ID=KFAN-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=KFAN_AM_1130&PCAST_CAT=Sports_Radio&PCAST_TITLE=Purple_on_Demand_-_Vikings_Podcast


I listened, but not sure I got what you wanted me to get out of it.

They sucked up to their guest AW and said that Ced was struggling and that AW was probably the best corner to ever play the game.
They didn't say the Titans had a successful air campaign because of Ced, because they didn't.
They threw the ball 35 times, only 17 were completed, and only 7 were over 10 yards.
They also said that Ced is getting picked on more, because of his lack of INT's, but the game stats show that just as many balls went AW's way as they did to Ced's in Tennessee.
There have been game's where Ced has been singled out and he's done poorly.
I'm not trying to put this guy on a pedestal, just don't think he deserves the blame he is getting in this game.
He is our second best corner at this time, and he is not the reason we are losing games.


It would be great to have pro-bowlers 2 deep at every position, but talent is not what is causing our woes right now.
We are not playing inspired football, we can't overcome from adversity, and we have a huge tendency towards self destructing.
these are team issues, not individual player issues.

I was surprised that Grain Belt is still advertising, didn't realize they had that kind of budget.

VikingsTw
09-30-2008, 04:14 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


I listened, but not sure I got what you wanted me to get out of it.

They sucked up to their guest AW and said that Ced was struggling and that AW was probably the best corner to ever play the game.
They didn't say the Titans had a successful air campaign because of Ced, because they didn't.
They threw the ball 35 times, only 17 were completed, and only 7 were over 10 yards.
They also said that Ced is getting picked on more, because of his lack of INT's, but the game stats show that just as many balls went AW's way as they did to Ced's in Tennessee.
There have been game's where Ced has been singled out and he's done poorly.
I'm not trying to put this guy on a pedestal, just don't think he deserves the blame he is getting in this game.
He is our second best corner at this time, and he is not the reason we are losing games.



It would be great to have pro-bowlers 2 deep at every position, but talent is not what is causing our woes right now.
We are not playing inspired football, we can't overcome from adversity, and we have a huge tendency towards self destructing.
these are team issues, not individual player issues.

I was surprised that Grain Belt is still advertising, didn't realize they had that kind of budget.


Winfield has played very solid so far this season, aside from the Packer game, after that Packer game he had an interview just like this one where they confronted him about the issue, he said he used bad technique but don't expect to see it continue and guess what, it hasn't. I never heard them say he was best corner to ever play but IMO he's one of the best in the league and I'm surely not the only one that feels that way. I don't know where your getting the whole direction of passess thing, you guys put up those play by play descriptions and I seen two passess he gave up, one in which I wouldn't have blaimed him or Griffin for giving up because we blitzed our LB's and did not get any pressure.

Lack of INT's, getting hands on the football and just flat out coverage seems to be the issue with Griffin. I don't know that he is the second best corner because I'm seeing very good football from Chuck Gordon and he continues to improve as an Undrafted FA. I also flirt with the idea that Benny Sapp would be able to at least make a QB pay if he wants to continuely go after him see his 10 interceptions in Training Camp. Bottom line here is Griffin is not the making the plays or covering therfore teams will continue to pick on him because of this.

I agree with the self destruction, and you can find that phrase in more than one of my posts but I strongly believe these coverage issues are unexeptable and exactly why I created this thread. To point our biggest weakness on defense and like I said in the begginning of this thread, I've defended Griffin, I've been a Griffin fan but guess what he sucks right now period.

Yfz01
09-30-2008, 07:41 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


I am right there with all of you who say this is a team/concept issue instead of a Griffin issue and I raise the kaka del rio flag against the guys who say Whinny played well on Sunday.

He gave up some nice passing yards early lest we forget.
Sharp (Choke Choke Puke) had to help him out on several passes that he was burned on.

Long story short, if our front four don't get pressure, we have to bring the LB's which expose our soft zones that our CB's give up to prevent deep passes.
Both Whinny and Griff are those types of CB's.
They are not CB's that work well out of press coverage.

Until Leslie can figure out how to use our front four to get to the QB (They got pressure 3 fricken times this weekend, 3 fricken times) the QB's will stand back there all gol 'darnit day long and pick the CB's apart either across the middle or just throw the quick stuff that they give up in this scheme.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?game_id=29583&displayPage=tab_play_by_play&season=2008&week=REG4&override=true


Uhhmm I don't have Griffins stats on the year but Winfield is doing MUCH Better.

I got these from someone else...
Week 1 @ Packers

Targeted: 4
Completions: 3
Yards: 36

Week 2 Colts

Targeted: 2
Completions: 0

Week 3 Panthers

Targeted: 4
Completions: 1
Yards: 10

Week 4 @ Titans

Targeted: 8
Completions: 2
Yards: 38

TOTAL: 6 completions / 18 targets / 84 yards
SUCCESS RATE: 33.33%
YARDS PER ATTEMPT: 4.67
YARDS PER COMPLETION: 14
TOUCHDOWNS: 0

COMPLETED VS ZONE; 2 rec - 35 yards
COMPLETED VS MAN: 4 rec - 49 yards
3RD DOWN STOPS: 2

This is based on him rewatching and evaluating the game, and who he thinks is at fault for the completion.

marstc09
09-30-2008, 07:47 PM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


We have had a poohie secondary since dungy left over a decade ago.

It is not going to help to replace him.


Did you not see how bad this guy performed vs the Colts and now the Titans? How could possibly know that a change won't help?


Because it is a systematic problem.

In the cover 2 you need more pressure from the line so that the corners are not exposed all game. Last week we got pressure and Griffin was able to look acceptable. In the Packers, colts and titans games the line was not getting pressure so the wr's had better days.

When you line the CB up 10 yards off the line it is going to create space for them to get open. But the whole key, as I said, is to find a way to get consistent pressure. We have spent enough money up front to expect a better job.


+1

marstc09
09-30-2008, 07:50 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Its the system

The CBs cant stay with a WR for 4-5 seconds


Come on, you build your system depending on the players/talent you have.
If you have talent you can press and go man a lot (GB & Chicago).
If you do not have it you go zone (us).




I disagree. I watched Cedric in college and he was a Al Harris type guy. He needs to be physical and we are not letting him.

marstc09
09-30-2008, 07:56 PM
"V4L" wrote:


I just wanna see Cedric get a pick

Just 1 interception please

It's his job


It is also the Dlines job to get pressure. It is hard for the best CB to make a pick it the QB has enough time to find the open man and throws a perfect pass.

marstc09
09-30-2008, 08:03 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


Well if its a systamatic issue like some would like to say it won't matter who is playing DB. IMO its only obvious this dude is not getting the job done, How many times did Collins look to Winfields side of the field and decide not to throw it or throw it away? We got Mardro over here saying Winfield's not playing that great either, I disagree huge and this is how I know Griffin is getting smoked so badly. Winfield got beat by Justin Gage in man on man coverage when a 6 man blitz couldn't get to the QB, thats the only time I rember him giving up chuncks vs the Titans. I will also go back the Colts game where consistent pressure was brought all day long and Griffin was still burned all day long, he was also burned at times during the Carolina game, he also overpursues on his angles getting himself in trouble or taking one of teamates out of the play.

I think its quite silly to sit here and defend Griffin with the excuse of the system. Our front 4 pressure has been much better than last year yet Griffin is playing worse than last season. There's alot of Football left to be played this season so he has a chance to redeam himself but I think we're going to see alot more of it Vs the Saints. The only way to protect him is get instintanias pressure on the QB at all times, this doesn't happen for any team. Winfield has at one INT this season, nearly two, he's also had his hands on the few passess yet he hardly gets thrown at, Griffin on the other hand hasn't touched a pass since pre-season. He is making zero plays on the football and untill he does he will be the weakest link on our defensive squad.



1st Quarter

expand [+]
collapse [-]
Tennessee Titans at 15:00


2-1-TEN 33 (14:21) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 12-J.Gage to MIN 49 for 18 yards (23-C.Griffin, 25-T.Johnson).
2-6-MIN 45 (13:09) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 28-C.Johnson.
3-6-MIN 45 (13:05) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass deep left to 19-J.McCareins to MIN 29 for 16 yards (23-C.Griffin).
2-4-MIN 23 (11:52) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 81-B.Jones to MIN 10 for 13 yards (52-C.Greenway, 42-D.Sharper).
2-9-MIN 9 (10:52) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 28-C.Johnson to MIN 2 for 7 yards (52-C.Greenway, 26-A.Winfield).
3-2-MIN 2 (10:13) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 88-C.Stevens.


Tennessee Titans at 08:43
1-10-MIN 33 (8:43) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 80-B.Scaife to MIN 31 for 2 yards (23-C.Griffin).
2-8-MIN 31 (8:07) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 19-J.McCareins (26-A.Winfield).
3-8-MIN 31 (7:59) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 81-B.Jones to MIN 25 for 6 yards (26-A.Winfield). PENALTY on MIN-69-J.Allen, Defensive Offside, 5 yards, enforced at MIN 31 - No Play.
3-3-MIN 26 (7:35) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 19-J.McCareins to MIN 15 for 11 yards (23-C.Griffin, 52-C.Greenway).


Tennessee Titans at 14:53
1-10-TEN 27 (14:48) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 19-J.McCareins.
2-10-TEN 27 (14:42) 5-K.Collins pass deep middle to 12-J.Gage to MIN 45 for 28 yards (25-T.Johnson, 26-A.Winfield).
2-8-MIN 43 (13:21) 5-K.Collins pass deep right to 12-J.Gage to MIN 18 for 25 yards (42-D.Sharper). Penalty on MIN-69-J.Allen, Defensive Offside, declined.
2-10-MIN 18 (12:10) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short middle to 28-C.Johnson to MIN 13 for 5 yards (93-K.Williams).

Tennessee Titans at 08:36
1-10-TEN 21 (8:36) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete deep left to 12-J.Gage.
3-3-TEN 39 (5:45) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 12-J.Gage.

Tennessee Titans at 05:28
2-11-MIN 12 (4:51) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right.
3-11-MIN 12 (4:44) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 81-B.Jones pushed ob at MIN 3 for 9 yards (41-C.Gordon).
4-2-MIN 3 (4:18) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 12-J.Gage to MIN 1 for 2 yards (26-A.Winfield, 96-B.Robison). Minnesota challenged the first down ruling, and the play was Upheld. (Timeout #2.)


Tennessee Titans at 00:48
1-10-TEN 31 (:43) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 28-C.Johnson to TEN 33 for 2 yards (26-A.Winfield).
2-8-TEN 33 (:23) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short middle to 80-B.Scaife to TEN 42 for 9 yards (41-C.Gordon, 52-C.Greenway).
Timeout #2 by TEN at 00:17.
1-10-TEN 42 (:17) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 19-J.McCareins.


Tennessee Titans at 12:30
3-3-TEN 32 (11:24) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 12-J.Gage.


Tennessee Titans at 09:39
2-8-TEN 38 (9:04) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 19-J.McCareins to TEN 48 for 10 yards (26-A.Winfield).
1-10-TEN 48 (8:24) 5-K.Collins pass deep left to 12-J.Gage to MIN 33 for 19 yards (56-E. J. Henderson, 42-D.Sharper).
2-8-MIN 31 (7:08) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short left to 28-C.Johnson (23-C.Griffin).
3-8-MIN 31 (7:04) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 19-J.McCareins (69-J.Allen).


Tennessee Titans at 04:00
3-6-TEN 24 (2:47) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 12-J.Gage [97-E.Wyms].

Tennessee Titans at 00:56
1-10-TEN 40 (:56) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 45-A.Hall to TEN 45 for 5 yards (51-B.Leber).
3-5-TEN 45 (15:00) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete deep left to 19-J.McCareins [69-J.Allen].


Tennessee Titans at 11:07
1-10-TEN 27 (11:07) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 80-B.Scaife pushed ob at TEN 33 for 6 yards (23-C.Griffin) [93-K.Williams].
2-4-TEN 33 (10:34) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short left to 19-J.McCareins.
3-4-TEN 33 (10:30) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short left to 19-J.McCareins.


Tennessee Titans at 06:00

2-7-MIN 44 (5:18) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short left to 12-J.Gage (26-A.Winfield).
3-7-MIN 44 (5:13) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 81-B.Jones to MIN 32 for 12 yards (23-C.Griffin).
3-15-MIN 37 (4:17) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete deep left to 81-B.Jones (42-D.Sharper).

The above is from: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/boxscore?game_id=29583&displayPage=tab_box_score&season=2008&week=REG4&override=true

I highlighted passes that resulted in 10yards or more on Griffin in red (or his side if name not called) and green for Winfield.

There were 4 on Griffin and 3 on Winfield.
A couple of those plays I believe fell more into the safeties responsibility, but hard to tell from a play by play listing so I left them in.
Also, if you look through the log, you'll notice that there are a fair amount of incompletions and minimal gains on both of them.

Overall, Collins went 18-35 for 199 yards.
They didn't exactly torch us in the air.
They played with a short field and made some key plays.


Not trying to make excuses for Griffin, but he is not the reason we lost this game and his play wasn't that far off from AW's.


There you have it. So why are we on Griffin and not Winfield. In reality we should not be on any of them. What about the expensive DE and the rest of the line?

VikingsTw
09-30-2008, 08:11 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


"ultravikingfan" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Its the system

The CBs cant stay with a WR for 4-5 seconds


Come on, you build your system depending on the players/talent you have.
If you have talent you can press and go man a lot (GB & Chicago).
If you do not have it you go zone (us).




I disagree. I watched Cedric in college and he was a Al Harris type guy. He needs to be physical and we are not letting him.


Come on man, not letting him be physical? Thats one of the positives with him, he's very physical, and very hard hitter and good tackler, does very well in run support. He gets burned in press coverage, I think thats why he always plays so far off, cause he's scared to get burned deep. Not a good mind set to be playing with.

I watch his You Tube highlights all the time he was a beast in college but his coverage is yet to transform to the NFL level.

marstc09
09-30-2008, 08:16 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"ultravikingfan" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Its the system

The CBs cant stay with a WR for 4-5 seconds


Come on, you build your system depending on the players/talent you have.
If you have talent you can press and go man a lot (GB & Chicago).
If you do not have it you go zone (us).




I disagree. I watched Cedric in college and he was a Al Harris type guy. He needs to be physical and we are not letting him.


Come on man, not letting him be physical? Thats one of the positives with him, he's very physical, and very hard hitter and good tackler, does very well in run support. He gets burned in press coverage, I think thats why he always plays so far off, cause he's scared to get burned deep. Not a good mind set to be playing with.

I watch his You Tube highlights all the time he was a beast in college but his coverage is yet to transform to the NFL level.


How can you be physical when our zone coverage sets him back 5 yards? You can't touch a WR after that! Watch a Packer game and see how close Al Harris plays. In the WRs face at the line. That is what Cedric wants to do.

VikingsTw
09-30-2008, 08:21 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


How can you be physical when our zone coverage sets him back 5 yards? You can't touch a WR after that! Watch a Packer game and see how close Al Harris plays. In the WRs face at the line. That is what Cedric wants to do.


We do some of both if you havn't realized, we ask our corners to play man and zone, on the line of scrimage and off the line of scrimage. IMO he's getting burned period. He's not making any plays on any balls so far this season, he needs to step up and give a QB a reason not to throw his way, untill then its gonna be the same story all day.

VikingsTw
09-30-2008, 08:23 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


There you have it. So why are we on Griffin and not Winfield. In reality we should not be on any of them. What about the expensive DE and the rest of the line?


Posted By: Yfz01

Uhhmm I don't have Griffins stats on the year but Winfield is doing MUCH Better.

I got these from someone else...
Week 1 @ Packers

Targeted: 4
Completions: 3
Yards: 36

Week 2 Colts

Targeted: 2
Completions: 0

Week 3 Panthers

Targeted: 4
Completions: 1
Yards: 10

Week 4 @ Titans

Targeted: 8
Completions: 2
Yards: 38

TOTAL: 6 completions / 18 targets / 84 yards
SUCCESS RATE: 33.33%
YARDS PER ATTEMPT: 4.67
YARDS PER COMPLETION: 14
TOUCHDOWNS: 0

COMPLETED VS ZONE; 2 rec - 35 yards
COMPLETED VS MAN: 4 rec - 49 yards
3RD DOWN STOPS: 2

This is based on him rewatching and evaluating the game, and who he thinks is at fault for the completion.

marstc09
09-30-2008, 08:24 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


How can you be physical when our zone coverage sets him back 5 yards? You can't touch a WR after that! Watch a Packer game and see how close Al Harris plays. In the WRs face at the line. That is what Cedric wants to do.


We do some of both if you havn't realized, we ask our corners to play man and zone, on the line of scrimage and off the line of scrimage. IMO he's getting burned period. He's not making any plays on any balls so far this season, he needs to step up and give a QB a reason not to throw his way, untill then its gonna be the same story all day.


I still think he needs to press every play but I agree with you. He is not playing great. He as well as the Dline needs to step up. I am hoping when Williams gets back he can help Griffin because Tyrell is not making life easier for Ced.

VikingsTw
09-30-2008, 08:32 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


How can you be physical when our zone coverage sets him back 5 yards? You can't touch a WR after that! Watch a Packer game and see how close Al Harris plays. In the WRs face at the line. That is what Cedric wants to do.


We do some of both if you havn't realized, we ask our corners to play man and zone, on the line of scrimage and off the line of scrimage. IMO he's getting burned period. He's not making any plays on any balls so far this season, he needs to step up and give a QB a reason not to throw his way, untill then its gonna be the same story all day.


I still think he needs to press every play but I agree with you. He is not playing great. He as well as the Dline needs to step up. I am hoping when Williams gets back he can help Griffin because Tyrell is not making life easier for Ced.


I have a real problem with those who are blaming this kid in anyway, he's been nothing less than stellar. He's still yet to get beat IMO. A very solid tackler and doesn't blow assignments, IMO Williams will do nothing for this team unless he's replacing Sharper who is playing pretty good football aside from the Packer game in which Winfield also had a slow start.

marstc09
09-30-2008, 08:46 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


How can you be physical when our zone coverage sets him back 5 yards? You can't touch a WR after that! Watch a Packer game and see how close Al Harris plays. In the WRs face at the line. That is what Cedric wants to do.


We do some of both if you havn't realized, we ask our corners to play man and zone, on the line of scrimage and off the line of scrimage. IMO he's getting burned period. He's not making any plays on any balls so far this season, he needs to step up and give a QB a reason not to throw his way, untill then its gonna be the same story all day.


I still think he needs to press every play but I agree with you. He is not playing great. He as well as the Dline needs to step up. I am hoping when Williams gets back he can help Griffin because Tyrell is not making life easier for Ced.


I have a real problem with those who are blaming this kid in anyway, he's been nothing less than stellar. He's still yet to get beat IMO. A very solid tackler and doesn't blow assignments, IMO Williams will do nothing for this team unless he's replacing Sharper who is playing pretty good football aside from the Packer game in which Winfield also had a slow start.


You must have missed the blown coverage in the Colts game. Rewatch the highlights. That Gonzalez TD. Not only did he not help Griffin he left Wayne wide open.

VikingsTw
09-30-2008, 09:01 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


You must have missed the blown coverage in the Colts game. Rewatch the highlights. That Gonzalez TD. Not only did he not help Griffin he left Wayne wide open.


Yup good call, I won't say he was burned for sure because I thought the same thing about the GB play untill that was cleared up with the coverage that was called. 1 blown play by a rookie versus Peyton Manning isn't the worst thing in the world, I fault Griffin more than anyone, he played that one on the line of scrimage and did nothing to jam the WR giving Gonzales a clean gettoff and trailed him by 4 yards when he caught the ball.

I still think throwing Tyrell into any fire in order to cover up for Griffin is a mistake.

marstc09
09-30-2008, 09:04 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


You must have missed the blown coverage in the Colts game. Rewatch the highlights. That Gonzalez TD. Not only did he not help Griffin he left Wayne wide open.


Yup good call, I won't say he was burned for sure because I thought the same thing about the GB play untill that was cleared up with the coverage that was called. 1 blown play by a rookie versus Peyton Manning isn't the worst thing in the world, I fault Griffin more than anyone, he played that one on the line of scrimage and did nothing to jam the WR giving Gonzales a clean gettoff and trailed him by 4 yards when he caught the ball.

I still think throwing Tyrell into any fire in order to cover up for Griffin is a mistake.


Very true. Tyrell is young and Griffin has been around for a while. I would say give Benny a shot.

VikingsTw
09-30-2008, 09:08 PM
Benny or Chuck. I'm willing to watch him play Vs the Saints but their passing game is top notch. Griffin better be on his game, I garuntee Brees is watching film and Licking Chops.

It will also help if we can get Ray Ray back, we'll need pressure more than ever.

gregair13
09-30-2008, 09:10 PM
I think he is doing just fine. Hits hard (at least he did this week), doesn't miss many tackles. Sure he needs to work on his cover skills, but having the rookie safety playing behind him (like most of you have said) doesn't help. When he makes mistakes, there is less help around him in the secondary to cover up those mistakes.

VikingsTw
09-30-2008, 09:18 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


You must have missed the blown coverage in the Colts game. Rewatch the highlights. That Gonzalez TD. Not only did he not help Griffin he left Wayne wide open.


Well I just watched the tape past the original play and I got a better view of what was called there, to me it looks like he drops back in center field as the only safety, you can see him right behind EJ dropping back in coverage. Start it at 3:05 and make a judgement, I really don't know if thats his fault or what, maybe so maybe not but it looks almost impossible for him to make a play on that considering where he came from.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?categoryId=highlights&gameId=2008091405&week=2&seasonFilter=2008&seasonType=REG

ragz
09-30-2008, 09:52 PM
how can anyone say griff is playing well.
and how can anyone even compare his play to winfield.
they dont even throw at winfields side, for good reason, and when they ahve he has made plays.
they go at griff every week and even when hes in good position, which is more rare than often, the guy makes the catch over him anyway.
i cant even remember a play where i thought that was a nice play by griffen.
and even if he had one it was in the middle of about 10 plays that were uncontested.
if childress is demoting guys all over the offensive side of the ball, how can this guy continue to stay on the field.
if you have to pick one player who has consistently been picked on without much avail, there shouldnt even be a debate.
griff

Del Rio
10-01-2008, 12:50 PM
How someone can describe a blitz that sends both inside LB's and gets no pressure and still blame a completion on a CB is beyond me.

Let me guess we should bring back Fred Smoot at least he knows how to use a three headed dildo.

V4L
10-01-2008, 01:07 PM
"Del" wrote:


How someone can describe a blitz that sends both inside LB's and gets no pressure and still blame a completion on a CB is beyond me.

Let me guess we should bring back Fred Smoot at least he knows how to use a three headed dildo.



Take a note here ladies and gentlemen

jessejames09
10-01-2008, 01:13 PM
"V4L" wrote:


"Del" wrote:


How someone can describe a blitz that sends both inside LB's and gets no pressure and still blame a completion on a CB is beyond me.

Let me guess we should bring back Fred Smoot at least he knows how to use a three headed dildo.



Take a note here ladies and gentlemen


There's a reason one of his posts equals 6 of ours.

Derek Rick
10-01-2008, 02:06 PM
I was at the Titans game both
Griffith and Johnson were getting picked on like crazy they both looked lost out there but Griffith was so bad it was crazy.
Everytime they throwed a pass it seemed like he was getting burned or they ran right by him. Hopefully Williams comes back soon.

VikingsTw
10-01-2008, 02:08 PM
"jessejames09" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


"Del" wrote:


How someone can describe a blitz that sends both inside LB's and gets no pressure and still blame a completion on a CB is beyond me.

Let me guess we should bring back Fred Smoot at least he knows how to use a three headed dildo.



Take a note here ladies and gentlemen


There's a reason one of his posts equals 6 of ours.


LOL, I've been saying the same thing for the past 9 pages....

V4L
10-01-2008, 02:08 PM
Im not too impressed with Johnson and Griffin

Hopefully we can get taht part shored up

I think Griff will step up

jdvike
10-01-2008, 02:13 PM
"V4L" wrote:


Im not too impressed with Johnson and Griffin

Hopefully we can get taht part shored up

Well Johnson is a raw rookie who probably shouldn't be starting yet...Griffin is...ummm I dunno...Griffin has no excuses.

V4L
10-01-2008, 02:15 PM
"jdvike" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Im not too impressed with Johnson and Griffin

Hopefully we can get taht part shored up

Well Johnson is a raw rookie who probably shouldn't be starting yet...Griffin is...ummm I dunno...Griffin has no excuses.



I know I give Johnson a little lee way

However if you start you should be able to step in

VikingsTw
10-01-2008, 02:22 PM
If you guys could point to what Johnson is doing wrong be my guest, the dude has been nothing but stellar for our football team at FS. Good tackling, good coverage, I just don't get it, I'm not seeing what other people are seeing yet I'm very observant.

Raw? I don't think so, yeah he came from a smaller division but by no means is he raw, he has everything a Safety needs, his backpedal and hips are smooth as a CB. On draft day Mike Mayock claimed he was the best Safety in the draft ready to come in and start right away and its exactly what he's done. Don't bank on Meudia Williams, he's never been consistent in terms of staying on the field.

Feel free to enlight'n me....

V4L
10-01-2008, 02:26 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


If you guys could point to what Johnson is doing wrong be my guest, the dude has been nothing but stellar for our football team at FS. Good tackling, good coverage, I just don't get it, I'm not seeing what other people are seeing yet I'm very observant.

Raw? I don't think so, yeah he came from a smaller division but by no means is he raw, he has everything a Safety needs, his backpedal and hips are smooth as a CB. On draft day Mike Mayock claimed he was the best Safety in the draft ready to come in and start right away and its exactly what he's done. Don't bank on Meudia Williams, he's never been consistent in terms of staying on the field.

Feel free to enlight'n me....



I like his tackling but he is always late on getting over to help out

And a few times in our cover 2 the corner is supposed to let the safety take thier guy and the corner drops down.. I've seen a few times where Johnson (and Sharper) haven't gotten over

Mr Anderson
10-01-2008, 02:31 PM
"V4L" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


If you guys could point to what Johnson is doing wrong be my guest, the dude has been nothing but stellar for our football team at FS. Good tackling, good coverage, I just don't get it, I'm not seeing what other people are seeing yet I'm very observant.

Raw? I don't think so, yeah he came from a smaller division but by no means is he raw, he has everything a Safety needs, his backpedal and hips are smooth as a CB. On draft day Mike Mayock claimed he was the best Safety in the draft ready to come in and start right away and its exactly what he's done. Don't bank on Meudia Williams, he's never been consistent in terms of staying on the field.

Feel free to enlight'n me....



I like his tackling but he is always late on getting over to help out

And a few times in our cover 2 the corner is supposed to let the safety take thier guy and the corner drops down.. I've seen a few times where Johnson (and Sharper) haven't gotten over

Yes, that is the cover 2.

The safeties take take the deep halves, the corners basically cover the flats.
http://rpongett.phpwebhosting.com/Cover2.jpg

V4L
10-01-2008, 02:35 PM
"Mr" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


If you guys could point to what Johnson is doing wrong be my guest, the dude has been nothing but stellar for our football team at FS. Good tackling, good coverage, I just don't get it, I'm not seeing what other people are seeing yet I'm very observant.

Raw? I don't think so, yeah he came from a smaller division but by no means is he raw, he has everything a Safety needs, his backpedal and hips are smooth as a CB. On draft day Mike Mayock claimed he was the best Safety in the draft ready to come in and start right away and its exactly what he's done. Don't bank on Meudia Williams, he's never been consistent in terms of staying on the field.

Feel free to enlight'n me....



I like his tackling but he is always late on getting over to help out

And a few times in our cover 2 the corner is supposed to let the safety take thier guy and the corner drops down.. I've seen a few times where Johnson (and Sharper) haven't gotten over

Yes, that is the cover 2.

The safeties take take the deep halves, the corners basically cover the flats.
http://rpongett.phpwebhosting.com/Cover2.jpg



Thanks for the diagram

And for Johnson all I want to see until Madieu gets back is for him to get to his spot a little quicker

I think the NFL is just a wee bit too fast for him

VikingsTw
10-01-2008, 02:39 PM
See the problem with this is we don't always play the Cover 2, just like Marcs09 was telling me last night that Tyell blew coverage Vs Indianapolis and at first glance it looks so untill after seeing the call that was made he did his job, Cedric Griffin did not.

I want specifics, WHEN did he get beat, what game did he get beat cause I'm not seeing anything but sound football. The one complaint I have is his missed tackle from behind after that lateral to Reggie Wayne.

V4L
10-01-2008, 02:40 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


See the problem with this is we don't always play the Cover 2, just like Marcs09 was telling me last night that Tyell blew coverage Vs Indianapolis and at first glance it looks so untill after seeing the call that was made he did his job, Cedric Griffin did not.

I want specifics, WHEN did he get beat, what game did he get beat cause I'm not seeing anything but sound football. The one complaint I have is his missed tackle from behind after that lateral to Reggie Wayne.



Just rewatch the games and look for deeper passes

He is late alot of the times getting over

VikingsTw
10-01-2008, 02:45 PM
I don't think so man, I really don't because I've seen all the games multiple times exept the Titans game where I know he did a good job.

This whole late to get over thing, I'm just not seeing it. IMO he's playing instinctive fast football, not alot of passess are beating our safeties at all. Sharper blew some coverage in the Packer game along with Winfield. D Sharp also blew a TD vs the Colts to Reggie Wayne other than that I really have no complaints with the Safety play. I guess this is one that I just have to agree to disagree with.

I don't think Madui will have much of impact untill he and Johnson are on the field at the same time. People are happy to have McKinnie back which I agree with because we won't have to help that side but the Safties are playing fine.

Mr Anderson
10-01-2008, 02:53 PM
"V4L" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


If you guys could point to what Johnson is doing wrong be my guest, the dude has been nothing but stellar for our football team at FS. Good tackling, good coverage, I just don't get it, I'm not seeing what other people are seeing yet I'm very observant.

Raw? I don't think so, yeah he came from a smaller division but by no means is he raw, he has everything a Safety needs, his backpedal and hips are smooth as a CB. On draft day Mike Mayock claimed he was the best Safety in the draft ready to come in and start right away and its exactly what he's done. Don't bank on Meudia Williams, he's never been consistent in terms of staying on the field.

Feel free to enlight'n me....



I like his tackling but he is always late on getting over to help out

And a few times in our cover 2 the corner is supposed to let the safety take thier guy and the corner drops down.. I've seen a few times where Johnson (and Sharper) haven't gotten over

Yes, that is the cover 2.

The safeties take take the deep halves, the corners basically cover the flats.
http://rpongett.phpwebhosting.com/Cover2.jpg



Thanks for the diagram

And for Johnson all I want to see until Madieu gets back is for him to get to his spot a little quicker

I think the NFL is just a wee bit too fast for him


I'm sure someone's said this already in the Johnson discussion, but I don't think the NFL is too fast for him by any means. He's extremely athletic, he just needs to learn to make his reads faster, and that will come with experience.

C Mac D
10-01-2008, 02:56 PM
http://www.advancededucation.gov.ab.ca/englishexpress/articles/images/2006/cutcheese_BB_Web_06.jpg

jdvike
10-01-2008, 02:58 PM
"C" wrote:


http://www.advancededucation.gov.ab.ca/englishexpress/articles/images/2006/cutcheese_BB_Web_06.jpg

So what you are saying is that Griffin is cutting the cheese?
;)

C Mac D
10-01-2008, 03:10 PM
"jdvike" wrote:


"C" wrote:


http://www.advancededucation.gov.ab.ca/englishexpress/articles/images/2006/cutcheese_BB_Web_06.jpg

So what you are saying is that Griffin is cutting the cheese?
;)


I'm trying to say it's a slow day at work.

UndisputedVike
10-01-2008, 03:36 PM
It's so ironic 2 years ago people were whining for Smoot to be benched for Griffin. Now everyone wants Griffin to be benched.

Personally I'd like to see Griffin moved to Safety myself, give Charles Gordon the LCB spot and move Sapp into the Nickel and Rotate with McCauley. Though don't forget in Nickel and Dime, the Slot corners play a shallow zone, like LB's would in base 4-3, so in the Colts game Griffin was matched with Gonzalez in the slot and lost...a lot.

ragz
10-01-2008, 11:02 PM
i read today on vikingupdate that grif had two picks his rookie year, and either has none or one since then.
wheres the impatient people screaming for his head?
whats with all this, "he's only in his 3rd year give him some time" bullshit.
he's hurting us.
he is not getting beat only when we blitz 2 lbs up the middle and dont get to the qb.
hes getting beat consistently in many formations, and many blitz packages, and by many different levels of wrs.
if theres one person that i've seen all year on the field for the vikes that deserves to be demoted, its griffin.
he has made zero plays, and yet has either been a part of, or flatout been the reason for a handful of plays by the other team.

smokinthapurple
10-01-2008, 11:06 PM
you guys really think hes done that bad, i honestly thought he imporved somewhat, he held steve smith to how many yards and how many td's? also his hitting ability has improved drastically, hes played the run alot better, hes gotten beat a few times but the tyrell got burnt everytime.

VikingsTw
10-01-2008, 11:10 PM
"ragz" wrote:


i read today on vikingupdate that grif had two picks his rookie year, and either has none or one since then.
wheres the impatient people screaming for his head?
whats with all this, "he's only in his 3rd year give him some time" kaka del rio.
he's hurting us.
he is not getting beat only when we blitz 2 lbs up the middle and dont get to the qb.
hes getting beat consistently in many formations, and many blitz packages, and by many different levels of wrs.
if theres one person that i've seen all year on the field for the vikes that deserves to be demoted, its griffin.
he has made zero plays, and yet has either been a part of, or flatout been the reason for a handful of plays by the other team.



Ced was beast when he was rookie and thats exactly why we wanted him and not Smoot.

Yup and this includes Tarvaris Jackson IMO.

smokinthapurple
10-01-2008, 11:12 PM
"UndisputedVike" wrote:


It's so ironic 2 years ago people were whining for Smoot to be benched for Griffin. Now everyone wants Griffin to be benched.

Personally I'd like to see Griffin moved to Safety myself, give Charles Gordon the LCB spot and move Sapp into the Nickel and Rotate with McCauley. Though don't forget in Nickel and Dime, the Slot corners play a shallow zone, like LB's would in base 4-3, so in the Colts game Griffin was matched with Gonzalez in the slot and lost...a lot.





everyone loves this sapp kid i dont understand, i watched him get beat like a rugg all preseason long i have every game, on my dvr seriously was beat so bad it wasnt even funny, by the practice squad kids on dallas. was disgusting

VikingsTw
10-01-2008, 11:24 PM
"smokinthapurple" wrote:


"UndisputedVike" wrote:


It's so ironic 2 years ago people were whining for Smoot to be benched for Griffin. Now everyone wants Griffin to be benched.

Personally I'd like to see Griffin moved to Safety myself, give Charles Gordon the LCB spot and move Sapp into the Nickel and Rotate with McCauley. Though don't forget in Nickel and Dime, the Slot corners play a shallow zone, like LB's would in base 4-3, so in the Colts game Griffin was matched with Gonzalez in the slot and lost...a lot.





everyone loves this sapp kid i dont understand, i watched him get beat like a rugg all preseason long i have every game, on my dvr seriously was beat so bad it wasnt even funny, by the practice squad kids on dallas. was disgusting


Ewww I don't member it being that bad, I thought he actually made some plays but I dont' think anyone on the team has displayed a rug beating like Ced has so far this season. Here's to hoping he returns to the form and quick because we're going to New Orleans.

smokinthapurple
10-02-2008, 01:43 AM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"smokinthapurple" wrote:


"UndisputedVike" wrote:


It's so ironic 2 years ago people were whining for Smoot to be benched for Griffin. Now everyone wants Griffin to be benched.

Personally I'd like to see Griffin moved to Safety myself, give Charles Gordon the LCB spot and move Sapp into the Nickel and Rotate with McCauley. Though don't forget in Nickel and Dime, the Slot corners play a shallow zone, like LB's would in base 4-3, so in the Colts game Griffin was matched with Gonzalez in the slot and lost...a lot.





everyone loves this sapp kid i dont understand, i watched him get beat like a rugg all preseason long i have every game, on my dvr seriously was beat so bad it wasnt even funny, by the practice squad kids on dallas. was disgusting


Ewww I don't member it being that bad, I thought he actually made some plays but I dont' think anyone on the team has displayed a rug beating like Ced has so far this season. Here's to hoping he returns to the form and quick because we're going to New Orleans.


ive really only seen him get beat when he was supposed to have safety help and tyrell got beat

Marrdro
10-03-2008, 11:41 AM
"Del" wrote:


How someone can describe a blitz that sends both inside LB's and gets no pressure and still blame a completion on a CB is beyond me.

Let me guess we should bring back Fred Smoot at least he knows how to use a three headed dildo.

I've been preaching that it is a execution issue within the scheme with respect to having to use LB's to bring pressure (That our front 4 don't get consistently enough) for quite sometime and still haven't convinced them.

Maybe you will have better luck Del.


In the interim, here are a few more links by googling Cover 2 if you guys are interested that might matriculate it a bit better.
;D
;D

http://espn.go.com/ncf/columns/davie/1437187.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/354520/understanding_nfl_football_the_cover.html?cat=14

Marrdro
10-03-2008, 11:46 AM
"marstc09" wrote:


There you have it. So why are we on Griffin and not Winfield. In reality we should not be on any of them. What about the expensive DE and the rest of the line?

I haven't waded all the way back to that part of the thread yet, however, some yutz was trying to make that very point and blaming the D-cord for not getting better play out of them.

To sit here and say that Griff is our only problem is simply silly in my book.

VikingsTw
10-03-2008, 01:47 PM
I don't know that Griffin is our only issue but he's certainly the one rearing his head and in a big way IMO, everyone that watches Viking football knows he's playing softer than a bag of feathers. Childress last night said something along the lines of what I've been saying, "He'll come up and wallup you but he's playing soft, he is a good football player and he's competitive but he is playing soft, I don't think he's lost his confidence". Lets hope not cause I know he has the ability.

ragz
10-03-2008, 04:20 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


There you have it. So why are we on Griffin and not Winfield. In reality we should not be on any of them. What about the expensive DE and the rest of the line?

I haven't waded all the way back to that part of the thread yet, however, some yutz was trying to make that very point and blaming the D-cord for not getting better play out of them.

To sit here and say that Griff is our only problem is simply silly in my book.

who said he is the only one to blame?
that only happens on the offensive side of the ball.
bottom line is he has no picks since his rookie year and i can run off a list of plays in which he was either outta position and plays hurt us, or he was in good position and still allowed the wr to go up and catch it.
and it hasn't even been big wrs, as hes let kevin curtis and antwan randal el do it to him as well.
the most important question is how many plays has he made in the last 2 years compared to how many hes given up?
i mean i dont have to break down the cover 2 to see that its completely one sided.
i have hard times remembering plays where he even knocked down balls due to tight coverage.
i mean, can't any cb play off the ball and make the tackle after the catch for a first down?
if so, what makes him the starter then?
and winfield has been thrown at how many times compared to griffin?
and in the much less oppurtunities, how many plays have we seen him make?
hes not playing well, and maybe he is a part of a much bigger problem, but if he makes it that easy for qbs to get rid of teh ball with as much room for the wr to catch, a pass rush or blitz will not make a difference.
cuz the ball will be out already.

C Mac D
10-03-2008, 04:22 PM
Ah yes... finger pointing other players for his faults.

Seems like a theme.

If he was good, he'd make plays. End of story.

Yfz01
10-03-2008, 05:12 PM
"ragz" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


There you have it. So why are we on Griffin and not Winfield. In reality we should not be on any of them. What about the expensive DE and the rest of the line?

I haven't waded all the way back to that part of the thread yet, however, some yutz was trying to make that very point and blaming the D-cord for not getting better play out of them.

To sit here and say that Griff is our only problem is simply silly in my book.

who said he is the only one to blame?
that only happens on the offensive side of the ball.
bottom line is he has no picks since his rookie year and i can run off a list of plays in which he was either outta position and plays hurt us, or he was in good position and still allowed the wr to go up and catch it.
and it hasn't even been big wrs, as hes let kevin curtis and antwan randal el do it to him as well.
the most important question is how many plays has he made in the last 2 years compared to how many hes given up?
i mean i dont have to break down the cover 2 to see that its completely one sided.
i have hard times remembering plays where he even knocked down balls due to tight coverage.
i mean, can't any cb play off the ball and make the tackle after the catch for a first down?
if so, what makes him the starter then?
and winfield has been thrown at how many times compared to griffin?
and in the much less oppurtunities, how many plays have we seen him make?
hes not playing well, and maybe he is a part of a much bigger problem, but if he makes it that easy for qbs to get rid of teh ball with as much room for the wr to catch, a pass rush or blitz will not make a difference.
cuz the ball will be out already.




For the third time, Winfields stats on the season.

Uhhmm I don't have Griffins stats on the year but Winfield is doing MUCH Better.

I got these from someone else...
Week 1 @ Packers

Targeted: 4
Completions: 3
Yards: 36

Week 2 Colts

Targeted: 2
Completions: 0

Week 3 Panthers

Targeted: 4
Completions: 1
Yards: 10

Week 4 @ Titans

Targeted: 8
Completions: 2
Yards: 38

TOTAL: 6 completions / 18 targets / 84 yards
SUCCESS RATE: 33.33%
YARDS PER ATTEMPT: 4.67
YARDS PER COMPLETION: 14
TOUCHDOWNS: 0

COMPLETED VS ZONE; 2 rec - 35 yards
COMPLETED VS MAN: 4 rec - 49 yards
3RD DOWN STOPS: 2

This is based on him rewatching and evaluating the game, and who he thinks is at fault for the completion.

Griffin has had more completions against him in one game alone, i'm guessing!

Big C
10-03-2008, 05:18 PM
Cedric hasn't played well this season so far. He had an oustanding rookie season but hasn't shown the same nose for the ball since. I wouldn't be suprised if Gordon challenges him for play time.

singersp
10-19-2008, 10:28 PM
[]

Mr Anderson
10-19-2008, 11:10 PM
[]

i_bleed_purple
10-19-2008, 11:14 PM
[]

marstc09
10-19-2008, 11:31 PM
[]

Mr Anderson
10-19-2008, 11:32 PM
[]

singersp
10-19-2008, 11:46 PM
[]

singersp
10-19-2008, 11:52 PM
[]

huxx
10-19-2008, 11:53 PM
[]

V4L
10-19-2008, 11:53 PM
[]

marstc09
10-19-2008, 11:55 PM
[]

ItalianStallion
10-19-2008, 11:58 PM
[]

V4L
10-19-2008, 11:59 PM
[]

Mr Anderson
10-20-2008, 12:05 AM
[]

i_bleed_purple
10-20-2008, 12:35 AM
[]

i_bleed_purple
10-20-2008, 12:52 AM
[]

Marrdro
10-20-2008, 05:52 AM
[]

tastywaves
10-20-2008, 05:25 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


More of the same.

Comeon guys, if you want a shut down corner Griff is not your man.
He is gonna keep the cat in front of him and then make the tackle.

He isn't gonna demonstrate the ball hawking skills you guys all crave.
He just doesn't do that. He was brought in for this scheme.

As to letting WR's run past him......Think about it, he lets them leave his zone.
Simple basics of the cover 2 scheme.

With that in mind, look at who he is handing the guy over 2.
STJ.
Not pinging on him, but he is gonna struggle at times as well helping out over the top/taking the guy over.

Only way this gets resolved is for most of you to realize what our scheme is and what Griff isn't or for the new HC (when he comes in) to completely change the scheme and bring in new CB's (yes plural) as Whinny is a cover 2 guy as well.

Again, in this scheme the CB's will give up yards/catches especially if the D/L isn't getting it done.
I didn't watch the game but Orton's QB rating is high enough to make one think that both the DL and the CB's didn't get thier job done in.

I look to the coaching staff, D-coord (for coming up with it), DL coach/LB coach/S Coach (for not employing it/teaching it) and the HC (for approving it).

Out with all of them.


No matter how many times you, Mr. A or others try to help people understand the responsibilities of our corners they refuse to accept it.
If a receiver lines up against Griffin and he ends up catching the ball than Griffin sucks.


Griffin got beat against Booker, and should take heat for it.
AW also got burned for a TD in that game.
However, most of the damage was done by their TE's.
Our LB'ers and safeties got their jocks handed to them multiple times by Olson and Clark.


I would have an easier time with this thread if it was focused on Sharper or Tyrell, these are the guys getting owned this year.
I'll give TJ some slack as he is a rookie and he has made some plays, Sharper on the other hand has been less than mediocre.


Our team collectively has 4 picks this year in 7 games.
Leber, AW, Tyrell and Gordon all have one.
I would guess this would put us right on the bottom of the NFL.
Where's Sharper's name on that list, he's supposed to be our pick specialist, thats the only reason he still has a job.

singersp
10-20-2008, 05:31 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:



I would have an easier time with this thread if it was focused on Sharper or Tyrell, these are the guys getting owned this year.
I'll give TJ some slack as he is a rookie and he has made some plays, Sharper on the other hand has been less than mediocre.




LMAO! good one. You are a funny man.

singersp
10-20-2008, 05:35 PM
"Mr" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"Mr" wrote:



The Booker TD was ridiculous, Griffin was playing with a huge cushion(which I've constantly complained about for the past 3 years) Booker ran a little 3 step route and sat down in Griffin's zone(Griffin was about 5 yards deeper than him) but Farwell is the one who really misplayed it.

Go watch a replay of it, he comes off of his coverage and runs right by Booker, forcing Griffin away from the angle he had on Booker.


Considering Farwell is on the IR & hasn't played a regular season game, I can't see how he misplayed it.

Griffin has given up more receptions up front. The tackle doesn't do a lot after you have just given up a first down.

Griffin gives far to big of a cushion & doesn't close in to knock the ball away when the throw is made



It looked like a 59, I assume you can see how I made that mistake on the poor quality highlights of NFL.com.




LOL! A TRUE fan would know Farwell was out for the year.
:P

Jared Allen is the name you seek on that play.

tastywaves
10-20-2008, 05:46 PM
"singersp" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:



I would have an easier time with this thread if it was focused on Sharper or Tyrell, these are the guys getting owned this year.
I'll give TJ some slack as he is a rookie and he has made some plays, Sharper on the other hand has been less than mediocre.




LMAO! good one. You are a funny man.


Would you have preferred I used the word Duller?

Freya
10-20-2008, 06:15 PM
Next Sunday Griffin won't be owned by the opposing team's WR.

vikes2456
10-20-2008, 06:41 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


More of the same.

Comeon guys, if you want a shut down corner Griff is not your man.
He is gonna keep the cat in front of him and then make the tackle.

He isn't gonna demonstrate the ball hawking skills you guys all crave.
He just doesn't do that. He was brought in for this scheme.

As to letting WR's run past him......Think about it, he lets them leave his zone.
Simple basics of the cover 2 scheme.

With that in mind, look at who he is handing the guy over 2.
STJ.
Not pinging on him, but he is gonna struggle at times as well helping out over the top/taking the guy over.

Only way this gets resolved is for most of you to realize what our scheme is and what Griff isn't or for the new HC (when he comes in) to completely change the scheme and bring in new CB's (yes plural) as Whinny is a cover 2 guy as well.

Again, in this scheme the CB's will give up yards/catches especially if the D/L isn't getting it done.
I didn't watch the game but Orton's QB rating is high enough to make one think that both the DL and the CB's didn't get thier job done in.

I look to the coaching staff, D-coord (for coming up with it), DL coach/LB coach/S Coach (for not employing it/teaching it) and the HC (for approving it).

Out with all of them.


Well then the scheme isn't getting it done then. I don't understand everyones love affair with it. The only argument is "It doesn't give up the big play" However, it continuously allows the other team to march down the field with ease. And I hate to say it, but in all honesty our D has not impressed me at all this year, and I think the unit as a whole is overrated

ragz
10-20-2008, 07:51 PM
"vikes2456" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


More of the same.

Comeon guys, if you want a shut down corner Griff is not your man.
He is gonna keep the cat in front of him and then make the tackle.

He isn't gonna demonstrate the ball hawking skills you guys all crave.
He just doesn't do that. He was brought in for this scheme.

As to letting WR's run past him......Think about it, he lets them leave his zone.
Simple basics of the cover 2 scheme.

With that in mind, look at who he is handing the guy over 2.
STJ.
Not pinging on him, but he is gonna struggle at times as well helping out over the top/taking the guy over.

Only way this gets resolved is for most of you to realize what our scheme is and what Griff isn't or for the new HC (when he comes in) to completely change the scheme and bring in new CB's (yes plural) as Whinny is a cover 2 guy as well.

Again, in this scheme the CB's will give up yards/catches especially if the D/L isn't getting it done.
I didn't watch the game but Orton's QB rating is high enough to make one think that both the DL and the CB's didn't get thier job done in.

I look to the coaching staff, D-coord (for coming up with it), DL coach/LB coach/S Coach (for not employing it/teaching it) and the HC (for approving it).

Out with all of them.


Well then the scheme isn't getting it done then. I don't understand everyones love affair with it. The only argument is "It doesn't give up the big play" However, it continuously allows the other team to march down the field with ease. And I hate to say it, but in all honesty our D has not impressed me at all this year, and I think the unit as a whole is overrated

it totally is.
we talk about us like we are elite when the fact is we aren't even dictating what offense have to do, they are choosing for themselves not to bother running the ball cuz the pass is too easy for them.
the play that pissed me off the most, and their were many, was the greg olsen slant lined up against griffin when the ball was tipped at the line, he was still able to catch it, and then still had enough space to run for another 5-10 yards.
now if its not griffins fault there, there is something seriously wrong with a defensive scheme that is allowing a tight end to line up wide with a big enough cushion for something like that to happen and get an easy 10-15 yards.
if you are giving that to a team of course you are gonna see them continually go to it whether it be a te or wr.
same thing with a 5 yard curl that ends up going for 50 yard tds.
if your cushion is that big and then linebackers take a terrible angle where a play that is not even close to being anything more than a 5-10 yd pickup, somebody, or somebodies are doing something wrong.

Marrdro
10-21-2008, 06:44 AM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


More of the same.

Comeon guys, if you want a shut down corner Griff is not your man.
He is gonna keep the cat in front of him and then make the tackle.

He isn't gonna demonstrate the ball hawking skills you guys all crave.
He just doesn't do that. He was brought in for this scheme.

As to letting WR's run past him......Think about it, he lets them leave his zone.
Simple basics of the cover 2 scheme.

With that in mind, look at who he is handing the guy over 2.
STJ.
Not pinging on him, but he is gonna struggle at times as well helping out over the top/taking the guy over.

Only way this gets resolved is for most of you to realize what our scheme is and what Griff isn't or for the new HC (when he comes in) to completely change the scheme and bring in new CB's (yes plural) as Whinny is a cover 2 guy as well.

Again, in this scheme the CB's will give up yards/catches especially if the D/L isn't getting it done.
I didn't watch the game but Orton's QB rating is high enough to make one think that both the DL and the CB's didn't get thier job done in.

I look to the coaching staff, D-coord (for coming up with it), DL coach/LB coach/S Coach (for not employing it/teaching it) and the HC (for approving it).

Out with all of them.


No matter how many times you, Mr. A or others try to help people understand the responsibilities of our corners they refuse to accept it.
If a receiver lines up against Griffin and he ends up catching the ball than Griffin sucks.


Griffin got beat against Booker, and should take heat for it.
AW also got burned for a TD in that game.
However, most of the damage was done by their TE's.
Our LB'ers and safeties got their jocks handed to them multiple times by Olson and Clark.


I would have an easier time with this thread if it was focused on Sharper or Tyrell, these are the guys getting owned this year.
I'll give TJ some slack as he is a rookie and he has made some plays, Sharper on the other hand has been less than mediocre.


Our team collectively has 4 picks this year in 7 games.
Leber, AW, Tyrell and Gordon all have one.
I would guess this would put us right on the bottom of the NFL.
Where's Sharper's name on that list, he's supposed to be our pick specialist, thats the only reason he still has a job.


Excellent post my friend, but that is to be expected.
Have I ever told you that you were one of my favorite posters on this site?

With that said, I have one comment/issue with your post.

STJ seems to be a cat that will work out.
Is he having a time of it out there?
Yup, but he is also showing why he was drafted high.
He will come around.

Along that lines, lets not forget, because he is behind Griff, Griff must try to help/cover some of the inadequacies of STJ which is kindof lending to some of the longer catches.

Watch the box score.
Often times you will see a stat line that shows a long pass to the right side with Sharper making the tackle as Whinny shifts the guy to him or you will see Whinny/Sharp get credit for the tackle.

On the left side you see alot of just Griff in on the tackle.
At first I thought it was cause STJ was getting caught cheating up on the run to much but even though some of that is true (and expected of a rook by the way) Griff seems to have some pretty decent closing speed and gets back in help if a guy is handed over and STJ isn't in the right place to help.

Also, another stat line (especially in the Saints game) that was telling was how many times Griff came off his press/man to man (which he played a bunch on) in the saints game to help Chad out in the running game.
Again, a indicator that he does close well or atleast is getting better at recognizing what is going on and disengaging quicker.

Marrdro
10-21-2008, 06:48 AM
"vikes2456" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


More of the same.

Comeon guys, if you want a shut down corner Griff is not your man.
He is gonna keep the cat in front of him and then make the tackle.

He isn't gonna demonstrate the ball hawking skills you guys all crave.
He just doesn't do that. He was brought in for this scheme.

As to letting WR's run past him......Think about it, he lets them leave his zone.
Simple basics of the cover 2 scheme.

With that in mind, look at who he is handing the guy over 2.
STJ.
Not pinging on him, but he is gonna struggle at times as well helping out over the top/taking the guy over.

Only way this gets resolved is for most of you to realize what our scheme is and what Griff isn't or for the new HC (when he comes in) to completely change the scheme and bring in new CB's (yes plural) as Whinny is a cover 2 guy as well.

Again, in this scheme the CB's will give up yards/catches especially if the D/L isn't getting it done.
I didn't watch the game but Orton's QB rating is high enough to make one think that both the DL and the CB's didn't get thier job done in.

I look to the coaching staff, D-coord (for coming up with it), DL coach/LB coach/S Coach (for not employing it/teaching it) and the HC (for approving it).

Out with all of them.


Well then the scheme isn't getting it done then. I don't understand everyones love affair with it. The only argument is "It doesn't give up the big play" However, it continuously allows the other team to march down the field with ease. And I hate to say it, but in all honesty our D has not impressed me at all this year, and I think the unit as a whole is overrated

I hear ya my friend.
It is frustrating to watch indeed and I hope that the new coaching staff will look hard at making making a shift from it.

Problem is we are pot committed with respect to CB's in this scheme and it will have to be phased out as the new CB's are brought in if the FO goes the route of drafting CB help instead of getting a vet or two to come in during the transition.

As I'm typing this I am wondering if there are any of the new coaches that will want to go to a cover 2 vice a traditional press coverage scheme that has press CB's that we could trade a cover 2 CB for.
;D

bleedpurple
10-21-2008, 02:40 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"vikes2456" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


More of the same.

Comeon guys, if you want a shut down corner Griff is not your man.
He is gonna keep the cat in front of him and then make the tackle.

He isn't gonna demonstrate the ball hawking skills you guys all crave.
He just doesn't do that. He was brought in for this scheme.

As to letting WR's run past him......Think about it, he lets them leave his zone.
Simple basics of the cover 2 scheme.

With that in mind, look at who he is handing the guy over 2.
STJ.
Not pinging on him, but he is gonna struggle at times as well helping out over the top/taking the guy over.

Only way this gets resolved is for most of you to realize what our scheme is and what Griff isn't or for the new HC (when he comes in) to completely change the scheme and bring in new CB's (yes plural) as Whinny is a cover 2 guy as well.

Again, in this scheme the CB's will give up yards/catches especially if the D/L isn't getting it done.
I didn't watch the game but Orton's QB rating is high enough to make one think that both the DL and the CB's didn't get thier job done in.

I look to the coaching staff, D-coord (for coming up with it), DL coach/LB coach/S Coach (for not employing it/teaching it) and the HC (for approving it).

Out with all of them.


Well then the scheme isn't getting it done then. I don't understand everyones love affair with it. The only argument is "It doesn't give up the big play" However, it continuously allows the other team to march down the field with ease. And I hate to say it, but in all honesty our D has not impressed me at all this year, and I think the unit as a whole is overrated

I hear ya my friend.
It is frustrating to watch indeed and I hope that the new coaching staff will look hard at making making a shift from it.

Problem is we are pot committed with respect to CB's in this scheme and it will have to be phased out as the new CB's are brought in if the FO goes the route of drafting CB help instead of getting a vet or two to come in during the transition.

As I'm typing this I am wondering if there are any of the new coaches that will want to go to a cover 2 vice a traditional press coverage scheme that has press CB's that we could trade a cover 2 CB for.
;D


I'm not sure i agree with you Marr!!...You sticking up for Griffin is giving him too much credit!!... We don't always play man!!.. and in fact when we played the colts Gonzalez torched Griffin!!~..

and have you not noticed on what seems like ALL third and longs, where do they go??.. left corner side!!.. He gives up entirely too much yardage, and cushion... I agree he rarely get's beat deep but damn!.. on third and 8 he's also giving up 9 yards...

secondly I disagree in saying that winfield can't be a man corner... of course he can that's why he plays the slot receiver on third downs... He's played man principles in Buffalo before he came here.. bc when we got him while Tice was here, we weren't running a cover 2 scheme!!.. so of course winny can play man.. he's actually probably better at it or just as good in cover 2!..

I think we should move griff to safety!!.. or have him play nickel!.. i think Gordon would serve us better in that starting corner slot!.. or atleast until he gets torched which is better than Griffin at this point!

Marrdro
10-21-2008, 02:57 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"vikes2456" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


More of the same.

Comeon guys, if you want a shut down corner Griff is not your man.
He is gonna keep the cat in front of him and then make the tackle.

He isn't gonna demonstrate the ball hawking skills you guys all crave.
He just doesn't do that. He was brought in for this scheme.

As to letting WR's run past him......Think about it, he lets them leave his zone.
Simple basics of the cover 2 scheme.

With that in mind, look at who he is handing the guy over 2.
STJ.
Not pinging on him, but he is gonna struggle at times as well helping out over the top/taking the guy over.

Only way this gets resolved is for most of you to realize what our scheme is and what Griff isn't or for the new HC (when he comes in) to completely change the scheme and bring in new CB's (yes plural) as Whinny is a cover 2 guy as well.

Again, in this scheme the CB's will give up yards/catches especially if the D/L isn't getting it done.
I didn't watch the game but Orton's QB rating is high enough to make one think that both the DL and the CB's didn't get thier job done in.

I look to the coaching staff, D-coord (for coming up with it), DL coach/LB coach/S Coach (for not employing it/teaching it) and the HC (for approving it).

Out with all of them.


Well then the scheme isn't getting it done then. I don't understand everyones love affair with it. The only argument is "It doesn't give up the big play" However, it continuously allows the other team to march down the field with ease. And I hate to say it, but in all honesty our D has not impressed me at all this year, and I think the unit as a whole is overrated

I hear ya my friend.
It is frustrating to watch indeed and I hope that the new coaching staff will look hard at making making a shift from it.

Problem is we are pot committed with respect to CB's in this scheme and it will have to be phased out as the new CB's are brought in if the FO goes the route of drafting CB help instead of getting a vet or two to come in during the transition.

As I'm typing this I am wondering if there are any of the new coaches that will want to go to a cover 2 vice a traditional press coverage scheme that has press CB's that we could trade a cover 2 CB for.
;D


I'm not sure i agree with you Marr!!...You sticking up for Griffin is giving him too much credit!!... We don't always play man!!.. and in fact when we played the colts Gonzalez torched Griffin!!~..

and have you not noticed on what seems like ALL third and longs, where do they go??.. left corner side!!.. He gives up entirely too much yardage, and cushion... I agree he rarely get's beat deep but gol 'darnit!.. on third and 8 he's also giving up 9 yards...

secondly I disagree in saying that winfield can't be a man corner... of course he can that's why he plays the slot receiver on third downs... He's played man principles in Buffalo before he came here.. bc when we got him while Tice was here, we weren't running a cover 2 scheme!!.. so of course winny can play man.. he's actually probably better at it or just as good in cover 2!..

I think we should move griff to safety!!.. or have him play nickel!.. i think Gordon would serve us better in that starting corner slot!.. or atleast until he gets torched which is better than Griffin at this point!


First, I never said we always play man.
Not sure were that came from.

Second.
Whinny is not a shut down corner.
Plain and simple.
He is however a great cover 2 CB and I give him all the respect for that.
You should revisit what defense they played in Buffalo my friend.
I for the life of me can't remember what scheme we ran under Tice cause I don't think we had one.


If my memory serves we couldn't decide if we were a 3-4 or a 4-3.

Third, were where you when I started a thread on moving him to S?
;D

bleedpurple
10-21-2008, 03:06 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"vikes2456" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


More of the same.

Comeon guys, if you want a shut down corner Griff is not your man.
He is gonna keep the cat in front of him and then make the tackle.

He isn't gonna demonstrate the ball hawking skills you guys all crave.
He just doesn't do that. He was brought in for this scheme.

As to letting WR's run past him......Think about it, he lets them leave his zone.
Simple basics of the cover 2 scheme.

With that in mind, look at who he is handing the guy over 2.
STJ.
Not pinging on him, but he is gonna struggle at times as well helping out over the top/taking the guy over.

Only way this gets resolved is for most of you to realize what our scheme is and what Griff isn't or for the new HC (when he comes in) to completely change the scheme and bring in new CB's (yes plural) as Whinny is a cover 2 guy as well.

Again, in this scheme the CB's will give up yards/catches especially if the D/L isn't getting it done.
I didn't watch the game but Orton's QB rating is high enough to make one think that both the DL and the CB's didn't get thier job done in.

I look to the coaching staff, D-coord (for coming up with it), DL coach/LB coach/S Coach (for not employing it/teaching it) and the HC (for approving it).

Out with all of them.


Well then the scheme isn't getting it done then. I don't understand everyones love affair with it. The only argument is "It doesn't give up the big play" However, it continuously allows the other team to march down the field with ease. And I hate to say it, but in all honesty our D has not impressed me at all this year, and I think the unit as a whole is overrated

I hear ya my friend.
It is frustrating to watch indeed and I hope that the new coaching staff will look hard at making making a shift from it.

Problem is we are pot committed with respect to CB's in this scheme and it will have to be phased out as the new CB's are brought in if the FO goes the route of drafting CB help instead of getting a vet or two to come in during the transition.

As I'm typing this I am wondering if there are any of the new coaches that will want to go to a cover 2 vice a traditional press coverage scheme that has press CB's that we could trade a cover 2 CB for.
;D


I'm not sure i agree with you Marr!!...You sticking up for Griffin is giving him too much credit!!... We don't always play man!!.. and in fact when we played the colts Gonzalez torched Griffin!!~..

and have you not noticed on what seems like ALL third and longs, where do they go??.. left corner side!!.. He gives up entirely too much yardage, and cushion... I agree he rarely get's beat deep but gol 'darnit!.. on third and 8 he's also giving up 9 yards...

secondly I disagree in saying that winfield can't be a man corner... of course he can that's why he plays the slot receiver on third downs... He's played man principles in Buffalo before he came here.. bc when we got him while Tice was here, we weren't running a cover 2 scheme!!.. so of course winny can play man.. he's actually probably better at it or just as good in cover 2!..

I think we should move griff to safety!!.. or have him play nickel!.. i think Gordon would serve us better in that starting corner slot!.. or atleast until he gets torched which is better than Griffin at this point!


First, I never said we always play man.
Not sure were that came from.

Second.
Whinny is not a shut down corner.
Plain and simple.
He is however a great cover 2 CB and I give him all the respect for that.
You should revisit what defense they played in Buffalo my friend.
I for the life of me can't remember what scheme we ran under Tice cause I don't think we had one.


If my memory serves we couldn't decide if we were a 3-4 or a 4-3.

Third, were where you when I started a thread on moving him to S?
;D


not sure.. but i've been saying he's should have been moved to safety since the offseason....

Winny might not be a shut down corner, but he's a decent man corner and can play/excel in either scheme...

secondly, I remember us running a 3-4 or 4-3 whatever scheme but it definately wasn't cover 2!!!.. and as for buffalo, who was the coach... Wade phillips, Mike Mularky.... wasn't Teddy Cotrell the d-coordinator?.. i really don't think they ran the cover 2 marr... and even so, Winny was a good corner here before chilly got here...

lastly, how many corners do you have in the league that are SHUTDOWN CORNERS???.....

1. Champ Bailey
2. Asomugha
3. woodson
4. McCalister - used to be..
5. Bodden
and maybe 2 or 3 more..

there's not that many shutdown corners out there anymore regardless of what scheme you run!!!.... Doens't mean we have to get another one to replace winfield bc he's not an elite shutdown guy... i guarantee you if we had a Champ on the other side or anyone of those other guys in that list above besides McCalister, we'd have the best corner tandem in the league... that says alot about Winfield....

Sorry, but Griffin is a nickel corner at best!!!!

Marrdro
10-21-2008, 03:49 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"bleedpurple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"vikes2456" wrote:




More of the same.

Comeon guys, if you want a shut down corner Griff is not your man.
He is gonna keep the cat in front of him and then make the tackle.

He isn't gonna demonstrate the ball hawking skills you guys all crave.
He just doesn't do that. He was brought in for this scheme.

As to letting WR's run past him......Think about it, he lets them leave his zone.
Simple basics of the cover 2 scheme.

With that in mind, look at who he is handing the guy over 2.
STJ.
Not pinging on him, but he is gonna struggle at times as well helping out over the top/taking the guy over.

Only way this gets resolved is for most of you to realize what our scheme is and what Griff isn't or for the new HC (when he comes in) to completely change the scheme and bring in new CB's (yes plural) as Whinny is a cover 2 guy as well.

Again, in this scheme the CB's will give up yards/catches especially if the D/L isn't getting it done.
I didn't watch the game but Orton's QB rating is high enough to make one think that both the DL and the CB's didn't get thier job done in.

I look to the coaching staff, D-coord (for coming up with it), DL coach/LB coach/S Coach (for not employing it/teaching it) and the HC (for approving it).

Out with all of them.


Well then the scheme isn't getting it done then. I don't understand everyones love affair with it. The only argument is "It doesn't give up the big play" However, it continuously allows the other team to march down the field with ease. And I hate to say it, but in all honesty our D has not impressed me at all this year, and I think the unit as a whole is overrated

I hear ya my friend.
It is frustrating to watch indeed and I hope that the new coaching staff will look hard at making making a shift from it.

Problem is we are pot committed with respect to CB's in this scheme and it will have to be phased out as the new CB's are brought in if the FO goes the route of drafting CB help instead of getting a vet or two to come in during the transition.

As I'm typing this I am wondering if there are any of the new coaches that will want to go to a cover 2 vice a traditional press coverage scheme that has press CB's that we could trade a cover 2 CB for.
;D


I'm not sure i agree with you Marr!!...You sticking up for Griffin is giving him too much credit!!... We don't always play man!!.. and in fact when we played the colts Gonzalez torched Griffin!!~..

and have you not noticed on what seems like ALL third and longs, where do they go??.. left corner side!!.. He gives up entirely too much yardage, and cushion... I agree he rarely get's beat deep but gol 'darnit!.. on third and 8 he's also giving up 9 yards...

secondly I disagree in saying that winfield can't be a man corner... of course he can that's why he plays the slot receiver on third downs... He's played man principles in Buffalo before he came here.. bc when we got him while Tice was here, we weren't running a cover 2 scheme!!.. so of course winny can play man.. he's actually probably better at it or just as good in cover 2!..

I think we should move griff to safety!!.. or have him play nickel!.. i think Gordon would serve us better in that starting corner slot!.. or atleast until he gets torched which is better than Griffin at this point!


First, I never said we always play man.
Not sure were that came from.

Second.
Whinny is not a shut down corner.
Plain and simple.
He is however a great cover 2 CB and I give him all the respect for that.
You should revisit what defense they played in Buffalo my friend.
I for the life of me can't remember what scheme we ran under Tice cause I don't think we had one.


If my memory serves we couldn't decide if we were a 3-4 or a 4-3.

Third, were where you when I started a thread on moving him to S?
;D


not sure.. but i've been saying he's should have been moved to safety since the offseason....

Winny might not be a shut down corner, but he's a decent man corner and can play/excel in either scheme...

secondly, I remember us running a 3-4 or 4-3 whatever scheme but it definately wasn't cover 2!!!.. and as for buffalo, who was the coach... Wade phillips, Mike Mularky.... wasn't Teddy Cotrell the d-coordinator?.. i really don't think they ran the cover 2 marr... and even so, Winny was a good corner here before chilly got here...

lastly, how many corners do you have in the league that are SHUTDOWN CORNERS???.....

1. Champ Bailey
2. Asomugha
3. woodson
4. McCalister - used to be..
5. Bodden
and maybe 2 or 3 more..

there's not that many shutdown corners out there anymore regardless of what scheme you run!!!.... Doens't mean we have to get another one to replace winfield bc he's not an elite shutdown guy... i guarantee you if we had a Champ on the other side or anyone of those other guys in that list above besides McCalister, we'd have the best corner tandem in the league... that says alot about Winfield....

Sorry, but Griffin is a nickel corner at best!!!!

Cottrell plays alot of 3-4 so Whinny would be playing the typical types of coverage associated with that scheme and depending on what he LB's and S's role are in any given play he would have to do one of the following....

a.
Lines up with at least a 5-7 yard cushion in most cases.
b.
Can be expected to play press/man at times but will often rely on S to help out in that scheme in case a deep go route is ran.
c. Must be tough enough to come off cushion to support in run (he excels at that by the way).

Look I'm not trying to take anything away from him and don't think he will be shown the door if we go to a scheme that would employ the press a bit more but in the end he along with Griff and the rest of our CB's would be phased out.

By the way, take a look at his stats.
He is a tackling monster and all of those stats don't come from run support.
Alot of them come from keeping the WR in front of you and wrapping him up after he makes the catch.

Additionally, seems he is doing pretty well for himself in the cover 2 with respect to INT's.
He sure has been alot more productive in that area here than he was with his first team.
;D

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=1775

Cedric Griffin is a Cover 2 corner and never will be a shut down corner.

tastywaves
10-21-2008, 04:11 PM
Okay, Cedric gives up a cushion.
He lets people catch balls in front of him, he rarely gives up the long pass.
He leads our team in tackles and forced fumbles.
Hmmm...kind of sounds like he's built like a corner for a cover 2 system.
You know that defensive system that requires the corner to defend the run as well as the pass and to keep the receiver in front of him and limit his YAC.
The other responsbility he has is to steer the WR back to the middle to allow the safety time to come over and help.
You should never see Griffin behind a WR on a deep route, that is the safeties responsibility.


Griffin is by no means a superstar and he's made his share of mistakes, but I doubt Gordon, Sapp or Macauley would hold up throughout the game in defending both the run and the pass.
I am a big fan of AW because of his ability to make big plays (game changing big plays).
However, his basic coverage and style of play is very similar to Cedric's.

A lot of the plays where I see passes being made in Griffin's zone are when they high-low the guy.
that is the WR lined up against him takes him to the deep part of his zone and they drop another receiver in the area vacated by him.
This is particularly a vulnerability when we have linebackers blitzing leaving the corners on an island.
You watch the entire play in Griffin's area (or Winfield's) and you will see a lot of decisions that these guys are processing including covering for someone else that missed their read.
LB'ers have a very large role in pass defense in a cover 2, but because they are LB'ers, fans rarely get on their asses for blown coverages.
This is where the loss of EJ really hurts us, having him in the game last Sunday to defend the middle of the field should have helped limit the damage done by Olson and Clark.
Nap looks like are best chance at filling this role.

Most of the arguments against Griffin are really against the Cover 2 philosophy.
That's another discussion that has its own merits.
The Cover 2 by design expects to give up a lot of short passes, but limit the long play and require the offense to have long sustained drives.
This is not the corner's fault, it is by design. Not a super agressive philosophy, but it has served many teams well and seems to hold up well primarily against WCO's that are designed around YAC.
When you need a stop in a hurry, its frustrating to watch.
However, if executed well, the end result should show up in the points allowed category.

ragz
10-21-2008, 10:29 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


Okay, Cedric gives up a cushion.
He lets people catch balls in front of him, he rarely gives up the long pass.
He leads our team in tackles and forced fumbles.
Hmmm...kind of sounds like he's built like a corner for a cover 2 system.
You know that defensive system that requires the corner to defend the run as well as the pass and to keep the receiver in front of him and limit his YAC.
The other responsbility he has is to steer the WR back to the middle to allow the safety time to come over and help.
You should never see Griffin behind a WR on a deep route, that is the safeties responsibility.


Griffin is by no means a superstar and he's made his share of mistakes, but I doubt Gordon, Sapp or Macauley would hold up throughout the game in defending both the run and the pass.

I am a big fan of AW because of his ability to make big plays (game changing big plays).
However, his basic coverage and style of play is very similar to Cedric's.

A lot of the plays where I see passes being made in Griffin's zone are when they high-low the guy.
that is the WR lined up against him takes him to the deep part of his zone and they drop another receiver in the area vacated by him.
This is particularly a vulnerability when we have linebackers blitzing leaving the corners on an island.

You watch the entire play in Griffin's area (or Winfield's) and you will see a lot of decisions that these guys are processing including covering for someone else that missed their read.

LB'ers have a very large role in pass defense in a cover 2, but because they are LB'ers, fans rarely get on their dimply buttocks for blown coverages.
This is where the loss of EJ really hurts us, having him in the game last Sunday to defend the middle of the field should have helped limit the damage done by Olson and Clark.
Nap looks like are best chance at filling this role.

Most of the arguments against Griffin are really against the Cover 2 philosophy.
That's another discussion that has its own merits.
The Cover 2 by design expects to give up a lot of short passes, but limit the long play and require the offense to have long sustained drives.

This is not the corner's fault, it is by design. Not a super agressive philosophy, but it has served many teams well and seems to hold up well primarily against WCO's that are designed around YAC.
When you need a stop in a hurry, its frustrating to watch.
However, if executed well, the end result should show up in the points allowed category.







i think the explanations of what the cover 2 is, is getting old.
everyone knows that they are giving up the underneath, problem with griffin is, hes giving up the underneath and then some.
guys are not catching 5 yard passes in front of him and then getting hit.
they are catching 5 yard passes and then running 10 yards after it. i.e; bookers td which was more than 10 yards.
and i'm sorry but we have seen wrs get behind griffin and find that hole between the safety and him.
so if hes giving up a cushion, and is still letting guys get behind him, and then when hes in good coverage he has been terrible at playing the ball, what exactly is his job? so cuz he plays the run well i'm supposed to ignore the fact that he gives up first downs on almost every pass play to his side.
i wish i had the patience to go and find that stat, but you gotta admit that a ton of first downs through the air have had to been on his side and in front of him.
not to mention 3rd downs are just way to easy to pick up on his side with that cushion, and it doesnt even give the d-line a chance to put pressure.
if the philosphy is to give up the 10 yards then he is playing his position awesome.

singersp
10-22-2008, 05:52 AM
"tastywaves" wrote:


Okay, Cedric gives up a cushion.
He lets people catch balls in front of him, he rarely gives up the long pass.
He leads our team in tackles and forced fumbles.
Hmmm...kind of sounds like he's built like a corner for a cover 2 system.


The only reason he leads the team in tackles is because he is targeted on a very high majority of the pass plays.

If a pass is thrown his way 18 times in a game & Winfield only twice, who is going to have the most tackles?

Pretty simple math.

Marrdro
10-22-2008, 05:58 AM
"singersp" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


Okay, Cedric gives up a cushion.
He lets people catch balls in front of him, he rarely gives up the long pass.
He leads our team in tackles and forced fumbles.
Hmmm...kind of sounds like he's built like a corner for a cover 2 system.


The only reason he leads the team in tackles is because he is targeted on a very high majority of the pass plays.

If a pass is thrown his way 18 times in a game & Winfield only twice, who is going to have the most tackles?

Pretty simple math.

That simple math equation will also so that the odds of him giving up a long pass or two is even greater than the guy who is only targeted twice as well.


Now I'm cracking myself up.
;D

El Vikingo
10-22-2008, 06:06 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


Okay, Cedric gives up a cushion.
He lets people catch balls in front of him, he rarely gives up the long pass.
He leads our team in tackles and forced fumbles.
Hmmm...kind of sounds like he's built like a corner for a cover 2 system.


The only reason he leads the team in tackles is because he is targeted on a very high majority of the pass plays.

If a pass is thrown his way 18 times in a game & Winfield only twice, who is going to have the most tackles?

Pretty simple math.

That simple math equation will also so that the odds of him giving up a long pass or two is even greater than the guy who is only targeted twice as well.



Now I'm cracking myself up.
;D


That simple math equation will also so that the odds of making Griffin got much more tip or interceptions than Winfield ,and hell yeah he got an uncredible 0 int in 30 games or so .

Now I´m cracking myself up my friend
;)

Marrdro
10-22-2008, 06:07 AM
"El" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


Okay, Cedric gives up a cushion.
He lets people catch balls in front of him, he rarely gives up the long pass.
He leads our team in tackles and forced fumbles.
Hmmm...kind of sounds like he's built like a corner for a cover 2 system.


The only reason he leads the team in tackles is because he is targeted on a very high majority of the pass plays.

If a pass is thrown his way 18 times in a game & Winfield only twice, who is going to have the most tackles?

Pretty simple math.

That simple math equation will also so that the odds of him giving up a long pass or two is even greater than the guy who is only targeted twice as well.


Now I'm cracking myself up.
;D


That simple math equation will also so that the odds of making Griffin got much more tip or interceptions than Winfield ,and hell yeah he got an uncredible 0 int in 30 games or so .

Now I´m cracking myself up my friend
;)

LOL, you and I need to party.
;D

tastywaves
10-22-2008, 09:27 AM
"ragz" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


Okay, Cedric gives up a cushion.
He lets people catch balls in front of him, he rarely gives up the long pass.
He leads our team in tackles and forced fumbles.
Hmmm...kind of sounds like he's built like a corner for a cover 2 system.
You know that defensive system that requires the corner to defend the run as well as the pass and to keep the receiver in front of him and limit his YAC.
The other responsbility he has is to steer the WR back to the middle to allow the safety time to come over and help.
You should never see Griffin behind a WR on a deep route, that is the safeties responsibility.


Griffin is by no means a superstar and he's made his share of mistakes, but I doubt Gordon, Sapp or Macauley would hold up throughout the game in defending both the run and the pass.

I am a big fan of AW because of his ability to make big plays (game changing big plays).
However, his basic coverage and style of play is very similar to Cedric's.

A lot of the plays where I see passes being made in Griffin's zone are when they high-low the guy.
that is the WR lined up against him takes him to the deep part of his zone and they drop another receiver in the area vacated by him.
This is particularly a vulnerability when we have linebackers blitzing leaving the corners on an island.

You watch the entire play in Griffin's area (or Winfield's) and you will see a lot of decisions that these guys are processing including covering for someone else that missed their read.

LB'ers have a very large role in pass defense in a cover 2, but because they are LB'ers, fans rarely get on their dimply buttocks for blown coverages.
This is where the loss of EJ really hurts us, having him in the game last Sunday to defend the middle of the field should have helped limit the damage done by Olson and Clark.
Nap looks like are best chance at filling this role.

Most of the arguments against Griffin are really against the Cover 2 philosophy.
That's another discussion that has its own merits.
The Cover 2 by design expects to give up a lot of short passes, but limit the long play and require the offense to have long sustained drives.

This is not the corner's fault, it is by design. Not a super agressive philosophy, but it has served many teams well and seems to hold up well primarily against WCO's that are designed around YAC.
When you need a stop in a hurry, its frustrating to watch.
However, if executed well, the end result should show up in the points allowed category.







i think the explanations of what the cover 2 is, is getting old.
everyone knows that they are giving up the underneath, problem with griffin is, hes giving up the underneath and then some.
guys are not catching 5 yard passes in front of him and then getting hit.
they are catching 5 yard passes and then running 10 yards after it. i.e; bookers td which was more than 10 yards.
and i'm sorry but we have seen wrs get behind griffin and find that hole between the safety and him.
so if hes giving up a cushion, and is still letting guys get behind him, and then when hes in good coverage he has been terrible at playing the ball, what exactly is his job? so cuz he plays the run well i'm supposed to ignore the fact that he gives up first downs on almost every pass play to his side.
i wish i had the patience to go and find that stat, but you gotta admit that a ton of first downs through the air have had to been on his side and in front of him.
not to mention 3rd downs are just way to easy to pick up on his side with that cushion, and it doesnt even give the d-line a chance to put pressure.
if the philosphy is to give up the 10 yards then he is playing his position awesome.





I don't think its as lopsided as you want to believe.
No doubt you get the cover 2 and the corner's responsibility, but I think there is still a large number of readers that still feel that Griffin's primary responsibility is making sure the receiver he is matched up against doesn't catch the ball.
The other little things like tackling and supporting the run are secondary to what they perceive from a cornerback.

Booker's TD was a missed play by Griffin that eventually led to a TD and he should take heat on it.
But to blame the passing success of all the teams we played against solely because of Griffin is putting the blame in the wrong spot.
And when he's playing underneath on a deep route and the receiver gets in the hole between the corner and the safety why do you lay the blame solely on Griffin.
he is supposed to have safety help on most of the deep routes, the D line is supposed to be putting pressure on the QB making him hurry his passes, and Griffin still has responsibility for the short zone.

The strongest criticism on Griffin that I can agree with on these forums is that he doesn't compete for the ball well against the larger receivers and he plays conservatively, the latter is probably because of his seniority and lack of a proven career.



And El Vikingo, Griffin has 2 INT's in his career, both in 2006.
AW has 6 in the same span, 4 in '06, 1 in '07 and 1 in '08.
Neither one is exactly tearing up the league in INT's, probably because we play a cover 2 where the corner is asked to keep the receiver in front of him and limit the YAC.

ragz
10-23-2008, 03:49 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"ragz" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


Okay, Cedric gives up a cushion.
He lets people catch balls in front of him, he rarely gives up the long pass.
He leads our team in tackles and forced fumbles.
Hmmm...kind of sounds like he's built like a corner for a cover 2 system.
You know that defensive system that requires the corner to defend the run as well as the pass and to keep the receiver in front of him and limit his YAC.
The other responsbility he has is to steer the WR back to the middle to allow the safety time to come over and help.
You should never see Griffin behind a WR on a deep route, that is the safeties responsibility.


Griffin is by no means a superstar and he's made his share of mistakes, but I doubt Gordon, Sapp or Macauley would hold up throughout the game in defending both the run and the pass.
I am a big fan of AW because of his ability to make big plays (game changing big plays).
However, his basic coverage and style of play is very similar to Cedric's.

A lot of the plays where I see passes being made in Griffin's zone are when they high-low the guy.
that is the WR lined up against him takes him to the deep part of his zone and they drop another receiver in the area vacated by him.
This is particularly a vulnerability when we have linebackers blitzing leaving the corners on an island.
You watch the entire play in Griffin's area (or Winfield's) and you will see a lot of decisions that these guys are processing including covering for someone else that missed their read.
LB'ers have a very large role in pass defense in a cover 2, but because they are LB'ers, fans rarely get on their dimply buttocks for blown coverages.
This is where the loss of EJ really hurts us, having him in the game last Sunday to defend the middle of the field should have helped limit the damage done by Olson and Clark.
Nap looks like are best chance at filling this role.

Most of the arguments against Griffin are really against the Cover 2 philosophy.
That's another discussion that has its own merits.
The Cover 2 by design expects to give up a lot of short passes, but limit the long play and require the offense to have long sustained drives.
This is not the corner's fault, it is by design. Not a super agressive philosophy, but it has served many teams well and seems to hold up well primarily against WCO's that are designed around YAC.
When you need a stop in a hurry, its frustrating to watch.
However, if executed well, the end result should show up in the points allowed category.






i think the explanations of what the cover 2 is, is getting old.
everyone knows that they are giving up the underneath, problem with griffin is, hes giving up the underneath and then some.
guys are not catching 5 yard passes in front of him and then getting hit.
they are catching 5 yard passes and then running 10 yards after it. i.e; bookers td which was more than 10 yards.
and i'm sorry but we have seen wrs get behind griffin and find that hole between the safety and him.
so if hes giving up a cushion, and is still letting guys get behind him, and then when hes in good coverage he has been terrible at playing the ball, what exactly is his job? so cuz he plays the run well i'm supposed to ignore the fact that he gives up first downs on almost every pass play to his side.
i wish i had the patience to go and find that stat, but you gotta admit that a ton of first downs through the air have had to been on his side and in front of him.
not to mention 3rd downs are just way to easy to pick up on his side with that cushion, and it doesnt even give the d-line a chance to put pressure.
if the philosphy is to give up the 10 yards then he is playing his position awesome.




I don't think its as lopsided as you want to believe.
No doubt you get the cover 2 and the corner's responsibility, but I think there is still a large number of readers that still feel that Griffin's primary responsibility is making sure the receiver he is matched up against doesn't catch the ball.
The other little things like tackling and supporting the run are secondary to what they perceive from a cornerback.

Booker's TD was a missed play by Griffin that eventually led to a TD and he should take heat on it.
But to blame the passing success of all the teams we played against solely because of Griffin is putting the blame in the wrong spot.
And when he's playing underneath on a deep route and the receiver gets in the hole between the corner and the safety why do you lay the blame solely on Griffin.
he is supposed to have safety help on most of the deep routes, the D line is supposed to be putting pressure on the QB making him hurry his passes, and Griffin still has responsibility for the short zone.

The strongest criticism on Griffin that I can agree with on these forums is that he doesn't compete for the ball well against the larger receivers and he plays conservatively, the latter is probably because of his seniority and lack of a proven career.



And El Vikingo, Griffin has 2 INT's in his career, both in 2006.
AW has 6 in the same span, 4 in '06, 1 in '07 and 1 in '08.
Neither one is exactly tearing up the league in INT's, probably because we play a cover 2 where the corner is asked to keep the receiver in front of him and limit the YAC.


well i think blaming any one person for a whole units problem is never smart.
and maybe some people have used a little hyperbole.
but i think for the most part we are all just saying that scheme or not, hes not playing well and is detrimental to the other problems we have with our pass defense.
i think that sometime, the people that defend certain players and coaches by talking about scheme this and scheme that, come off as sounding like we are the only ones in the league that do it.
like our scheme is more complicated than everyone elses and thats why we dont understand why this guy sucks.
or why hes playing where hes playing.
or why his numbers say this instead of that.
fact is alot of teams run our defense and offense in one version or another, so either we are not being coached well in it, or the players are not playing well within. cuz when you watch those other teams they dont look like what we are doing.
so in summary, we dont have to act like its what they are supposed to be doing, we can make the distinction between playing in the scheme, and playing in the scheme badly.

V4L
11-10-2008, 12:11 PM
Another good game for Griffin

No one has had anything bad to say for weeks except when he tripped to give up a meaningless TD

Go Griff.. Still my boy and always will be

CCthebest
11-10-2008, 01:40 PM
"V4L" wrote:


Another good game for Griffin

No one has had anything bad to say for weeks except when he tripped to give up a meaningless TD

Go Griff.. Still my boy and always will be


Honestly dude, put down the pipe. He is one of the worst coverage CBs, he is TERRIBLE on STs, and never makes a big play. Whats there to like about him?

PurpleTide
11-10-2008, 01:43 PM
Cedric is the second best CB we have... Period.

V4L
11-10-2008, 01:49 PM
"CCthebest" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Another good game for Griffin

No one has had anything bad to say for weeks except when he tripped to give up a meaningless TD

Go Griff.. Still my boy and always will be


Honestly dude, put down the pipe. He is one of the worst coverage CBs, he is TERRIBLE on STs, and never makes a big play. Whats there to like about him?



That he does his job well

When locked up one on one the last two weeks he shut down the number 1 and 2 Wrs in the league in terms of yards

He sucks on special teams yes.. Cuz he runs too damn fast

He is a baller dude.. Rewatch the last 3-4 games and you will see

Yfz01
11-10-2008, 02:27 PM
"PurpleTide" wrote:



Cedric is the second best CB we have... Period.


Yup, now he is.
;)

Maybe...

Anyways, he seems to be playing somewhat better recently.
Not getting burned as much and seems to be making a few plays.

V4L
11-10-2008, 02:30 PM
I bet if Jordy Nelson caught that pass on the first drive where he was wide open and Rodgers missed him it would have been blamed on Griffin like it always is

That was a classic example of him staying in his zone like the cover 2 says and Nelson got behind that zone coming across

i_bleed_purple
11-10-2008, 02:36 PM
"V4L" wrote:


I bet if Jordy Nelson caught that pass on the first drive where he was wide open and Rodgers missed him it would have been blamed on Griffin like it always is

That was a classic example of him staying in his zone like the cover 2 says and Nelson got behind that zone coming across


no, there's a difference between a guy being 10 yards away and obviously out of his zone, and being just a step away from griffin, when obviously he just straight up beat him

V4L
11-10-2008, 02:37 PM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


I bet if Jordy Nelson caught that pass on the first drive where he was wide open and Rodgers missed him it would have been blamed on Griffin like it always is

That was a classic example of him staying in his zone like the cover 2 says and Nelson got behind that zone coming across


no, there's a difference between a guy being 10 yards away and obviously out of his zone, and being just a step away from griffin, when obviously he just straight up beat him



Um no I watched the replay like 4 time

Griff stayed close to the line

And Nelson was about 20 yards down field

Not Griffs assignment there

i_bleed_purple
11-10-2008, 02:43 PM
"V4L" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


I bet if Jordy Nelson caught that pass on the first drive where he was wide open and Rodgers missed him it would have been blamed on Griffin like it always is

That was a classic example of him staying in his zone like the cover 2 says and Nelson got behind that zone coming across


no, there's a difference between a guy being 10 yards away and obviously out of his zone, and being just a step away from griffin, when obviously he just straight up beat him



Um no I watched the replay like 4 time

Griff stayed close to the line

And Nelson was about 20 yards down field

Not Griffs assignment there


No i wasn't talking about that exact play, i was saying that (at least some of) us can tell the difference between when he gets beat, and when the QB finds a hole in the zone.

bleedpurple
11-10-2008, 02:44 PM
"V4L" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


I bet if Jordy Nelson caught that pass on the first drive where he was wide open and Rodgers missed him it would have been blamed on Griffin like it always is

That was a classic example of him staying in his zone like the cover 2 says and Nelson got behind that zone coming across


no, there's a difference between a guy being 10 yards away and obviously out of his zone, and being just a step away from griffin, when obviously he just straight up beat him



Um no I watched the replay like 4 time

Griff stayed close to the line

And Nelson was about 20 yards down field

Not Griffs assignment there


he may not have been in his zone.. but i got two words for you!!!


ANTHONY GONZALEZ!!!

V4L
11-10-2008, 02:44 PM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


I bet if Jordy Nelson caught that pass on the first drive where he was wide open and Rodgers missed him it would have been blamed on Griffin like it always is

That was a classic example of him staying in his zone like the cover 2 says and Nelson got behind that zone coming across


no, there's a difference between a guy being 10 yards away and obviously out of his zone, and being just a step away from griffin, when obviously he just straight up beat him



Um no I watched the replay like 4 time

Griff stayed close to the line

And Nelson was about 20 yards down field

Not Griffs assignment there


No i wasn't talking about that exact play, i was saying that (at least some of) us can tell the difference between when he gets beat, and when the QB finds a hole in the zone.



Oh gotcha

Well that has happened 1 time the last 4 games

And that time he tripped.. Andre probably would have got it anyway.. But 1 time in 4 games is awesome

Not to mention he has made some HUGE tackles for us

Griffin is alot better then people think

V4L
11-10-2008, 02:48 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


I bet if Jordy Nelson caught that pass on the first drive where he was wide open and Rodgers missed him it would have been blamed on Griffin like it always is

That was a classic example of him staying in his zone like the cover 2 says and Nelson got behind that zone coming across


no, there's a difference between a guy being 10 yards away and obviously out of his zone, and being just a step away from griffin, when obviously he just straight up beat him



Um no I watched the replay like 4 time

Griff stayed close to the line

And Nelson was about 20 yards down field

Not Griffs assignment there


he may not have been in his zone.. but i got two words for you!!!


ANTHONY GONZALEZ!!!



Are you talking about the 2 long gains down the middle where he turned Anthony over to Tyrell and Sharper?

Or when he allowed Anthony to make the short catches then went and made the tackles while in his zone?

i_bleed_purple
11-10-2008, 02:49 PM
"V4L" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


I bet if Jordy Nelson caught that pass on the first drive where he was wide open and Rodgers missed him it would have been blamed on Griffin like it always is

That was a classic example of him staying in his zone like the cover 2 says and Nelson got behind that zone coming across


no, there's a difference between a guy being 10 yards away and obviously out of his zone, and being just a step away from griffin, when obviously he just straight up beat him



Um no I watched the replay like 4 time

Griff stayed close to the line

And Nelson was about 20 yards down field

Not Griffs assignment there


No i wasn't talking about that exact play, i was saying that (at least some of) us can tell the difference between when he gets beat, and when the QB finds a hole in the zone.



Oh gotcha

Well that has happened 1 time the last 4 games

And that time he tripped.. Andre probably would have got it anyway.. But 1 time in 4 games is awesome

Not to mention he has made some HUGE tackles for us

Griffin is alot better then people think


now when you say Andre probably would have got it anyway, are you saying that because you don't have faith in Griffin to cover him properly like he's supposed to?

V4L
11-10-2008, 02:51 PM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:




I bet if Jordy Nelson caught that pass on the first drive where he was wide open and Rodgers missed him it would have been blamed on Griffin like it always is

That was a classic example of him staying in his zone like the cover 2 says and Nelson got behind that zone coming across


no, there's a difference between a guy being 10 yards away and obviously out of his zone, and being just a step away from griffin, when obviously he just straight up beat him



Um no I watched the replay like 4 time

Griff stayed close to the line

And Nelson was about 20 yards down field

Not Griffs assignment there


No i wasn't talking about that exact play, i was saying that (at least some of) us can tell the difference between when he gets beat, and when the QB finds a hole in the zone.



Oh gotcha

Well that has happened 1 time the last 4 games

And that time he tripped.. Andre probably would have got it anyway.. But 1 time in 4 games is awesome

Not to mention he has made some HUGE tackles for us

Griffin is alot better then people think


now when you say Andre probably would have got it anyway, are you saying that because you don't have faith in Griffin to cover him properly like he's supposed to?



No cuz he is an absolute beast and more times then not wins those battles

He was the player of the month right before we played them

Then Griff made me look like an average WR when he manned him up all game

bleedpurple
11-10-2008, 03:26 PM
"V4L" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:






I bet if Jordy Nelson caught that pass on the first drive where he was wide open and Rodgers missed him it would have been blamed on Griffin like it always is

That was a classic example of him staying in his zone like the cover 2 says and Nelson got behind that zone coming across


no, there's a difference between a guy being 10 yards away and obviously out of his zone, and being just a step away from griffin, when obviously he just straight up beat him



Um no I watched the replay like 4 time

Griff stayed close to the line

And Nelson was about 20 yards down field

Not Griffs assignment there


No i wasn't talking about that exact play, i was saying that (at least some of) us can tell the difference between when he gets beat, and when the QB finds a hole in the zone.



Oh gotcha

Well that has happened 1 time the last 4 games

And that time he tripped.. Andre probably would have got it anyway.. But 1 time in 4 games is awesome

Not to mention he has made some HUGE tackles for us

Griffin is alot better then people think


now when you say Andre probably would have got it anyway, are you saying that because you don't have faith in Griffin to cover him properly like he's supposed to?



No cuz he is an absolute beast and more times then not wins those battles

He was the player of the month right before we played them

Then Griff made me look like an average WR when he manned him up all game


Give me a break, Griff didn't shut him down... Andre was doubled and tripple teamed the entire game... how do you think Owen Daniels, played lights out...

Although he did a good job, I think it's naive to think they put Griff on an island the entire game against one of the best receivers in the league....

I mean, c'mon, he's not even the best corner on a porus pass defense!!

Json
11-10-2008, 03:34 PM
Personally I like Griffin.
He's a tough "kid" who still makes plays.
You must take into consideration that teams don't attack Winfield being that he's 1 of the best DB's in the league if not possibly the best right now.
Most teams have to throw towards Griffin.
I see him a few times per game make big plays in the run game and hold his own most of the time in pass protection.

SamOchoCinco
11-10-2008, 03:42 PM
he is doing a ok job.

but since everyone said deangelo hall was horrible. then cedric is also horrible

packerbasher
11-10-2008, 03:56 PM
This guy cant cover worth crap,hope we get a CB in FA or high up in the draft next year,C.G is the weakest link on our D.

SamOchoCinco
11-10-2008, 03:58 PM
"packerbasher" wrote:


This guy cant cover worth crap,hope we get a CB in FA or high up in the draft next year,C.G is the weakest link on our D.


i wouldnt call him the weakest link. but he sure isnt getting the job fully done.

SIGN DEANGELO HALL NEXT YEAR!

i_bleed_purple
11-10-2008, 04:04 PM
"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"packerbasher" wrote:


This guy cant cover worth crap,hope we get a CB in FA or high up in the draft next year,C.G is the weakest link on our D.


i wouldnt call him the weakest link. but he sure isnt getting the job fully done.

SIGN DEANGELO HALL NEXT YEAR!


then who would you call the weakest link on our D?

SamOchoCinco
11-10-2008, 04:07 PM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"packerbasher" wrote:


This guy cant cover worth crap,hope we get a CB in FA or high up in the draft next year,C.G is the weakest link on our D.


i wouldnt call him the weakest link. but he sure isnt getting the job fully done.

SIGN DEANGELO HALL NEXT YEAR!


then who would you call the weakest link on our D?


the scheme. our defence is easily readable and its getting passed on like theres no tomorrow

i_bleed_purple
11-10-2008, 04:08 PM
"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"packerbasher" wrote:


This guy cant cover worth crap,hope we get a CB in FA or high up in the draft next year,C.G is the weakest link on our D.


i wouldnt call him the weakest link. but he sure isnt getting the job fully done.

SIGN DEANGELO HALL NEXT YEAR!


then who would you call the weakest link on our D?


the scheme. our defence is easily readable and its getting passed on like theres no tomorrow


still haven't answered the question, who would you call the weakest link on our D?
I can only thinkn of two players, either Edwards or Griffin.

V4L
11-10-2008, 04:10 PM
Edwards

Sharper

Leber

All weaker links then Griff

SamOchoCinco
11-10-2008, 04:12 PM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"packerbasher" wrote:


This guy cant cover worth crap,hope we get a CB in FA or high up in the draft next year,C.G is the weakest link on our D.


i wouldnt call him the weakest link. but he sure isnt getting the job fully done.

SIGN DEANGELO HALL NEXT YEAR!


then who would you call the weakest link on our D?


the scheme. our defence is easily readable and its getting passed on like theres no tomorrow


still haven't answered the question, who would you call the weakest link on our D?
I can only thinkn of two players, either Edwards or Griffin.


that was my answer. our cover two. our players would play fine if they didnt have to cover a gap and if it wasnt so readable

happy camper
11-10-2008, 04:12 PM
Leber!?

V4L
11-10-2008, 04:14 PM
Yes Leber

He is average

bleedpurple
11-10-2008, 04:17 PM
"V4L" wrote:


Yes Leber

He is average




Leber is solid... he's nothing special.. def, doesn't have great speed... neither is greenway... but they are better than Griffin... i'd say Griffin is def. the weakest link... aside from our defensive scheming.. although it has been better the last few days...

C Mac D
11-10-2008, 04:18 PM
"V4L" wrote:


Yes Leber

He is average


No way... Leber has stepped up. He's better in coverage than Griffin is.

V4L
11-10-2008, 04:19 PM
Leber has definitley picked up his game and just does what is asked of him

Griffin does the same

Griff has been manhandling WRs the last 4 weeks or so and making huge tackles on the outside

When you can hold the number 1 and 2 WRs in the NFL down as much as he did you gotta be doing something right

SamOchoCinco
11-10-2008, 04:20 PM
"bleedpurple" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Yes Leber

He is average




Leber is solid... he's nothing special.. def, doesn't have great speed... neither is greenway... but they are better than Griffin... i'd say Griffin is def. the weakest link... aside from our defensive scheming.. although it has been better the last few days...


its hard to judge though. everyone in our sec. has been bad besides winfield.

our linebackers suck without EJ and our line has 2 awesome lineman, one aging fat mad man, and one end who is still trying to get over 1 sack.

so take your pick

SamOchoCinco
11-10-2008, 04:20 PM
"V4L" wrote:


Leber has definitley picked up his game and just does what is asked of him

Griffin does the same

Griff has been manhandling WRs the last 4 weeks or so and making huge tackles on the outside

When you can hold the number 1 and 2 WRs in the NFL down as much as he did you gotta be doing something right


look what ced. did vs jennings.

that proves he did his job that game and was not the weakpoint

V4L
11-10-2008, 04:24 PM
"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Leber has definitley picked up his game and just does what is asked of him

Griffin does the same

Griff has been manhandling WRs the last 4 weeks or so and making huge tackles on the outside

When you can hold the number 1 and 2 WRs in the NFL down as much as he did you gotta be doing something right


look what ced. did vs jennings.

that proves he did his job that game and was not the weakpoint




And Andre Johnson

Fresh off of his October player of the month award

When he was asked to man to man he did real well besides giving up the meaningless TD which is normal from time to time to give up a TD to Andre Johnson ha

bleedpurple
11-10-2008, 04:29 PM
"V4L" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Leber has definitley picked up his game and just does what is asked of him

Griffin does the same

Griff has been manhandling WRs the last 4 weeks or so and making huge tackles on the outside

When you can hold the number 1 and 2 WRs in the NFL down as much as he did you gotta be doing something right


look what ced. did vs jennings.

that proves he did his job that game and was not the weakpoint




And Andre Johnson

Fresh off of his October player of the month award

When he was asked to man to man he did real well besides giving up the meaningless TD which is normal from time to time to give up a TD to Andre Johnson ha


No he didn't!!!... watch the tape... Andre was double covered all game!!... Griffin wasn't on an island with him....

to say he bottled him up is just ridiculous... did he do a good job? yes, but it was not in man coverage... like the packers play or played against us.... Griff had over the top help, virtually forcing him out the game... he did play physical with him which was a good thing.. but he was not man for man on him the whole game!

V4L
11-10-2008, 04:31 PM
I saw him manned up plenty of times I was there man

And I also TIVOed the game and saw him do a good job when manned up

Of course you are gonna use safety help over the top.. It would be idiotic not to

Griff did his part and the safety did his

SamOchoCinco
11-10-2008, 04:35 PM
cedric is doing just fine

seaniemck7
11-10-2008, 04:38 PM
"C" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Yes Leber

He is average


No way... Leber has stepped up. He's better in coverage than Griffin is.


Leber is so under rated its silly.
The does exactly what we ask him to do.
He also wears the radio now that EJ is out.

SamOchoCinco
11-10-2008, 04:46 PM
"seaniemck7" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Yes Leber

He is average


No way... Leber has stepped up. He's better in coverage than Griffin is.


Leber is so under rated its silly.
The does exactly what we ask him to do.
He also wears the radio now that EJ is out.



so why are people attacking cedric? he held jennings below FIFTY YARDS!

tastywaves
11-10-2008, 04:50 PM
"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"seaniemck7" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Yes Leber

He is average


No way... Leber has stepped up. He's better in coverage than Griffin is.


Leber is so under rated its silly.
The does exactly what we ask him to do.
He also wears the radio now that EJ is out.



so why are people attacking cedric? he held jennings below FIFTY YARDS!


Apparently we're desperate to find the weakest link on our defense, thereby labeling that person as "he's got to go".
When we replace him with a pro bowler, than we can move on to the next weakest link and offer up some FA pro bowlers to fix that problem.


We have to have a weakest link, so we know who's ass to get on when our defense fails to shut down the other team.

SamOchoCinco
11-10-2008, 04:55 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"seaniemck7" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Yes Leber

He is average


No way... Leber has stepped up. He's better in coverage than Griffin is.


Leber is so under rated its silly.
The does exactly what we ask him to do.
He also wears the radio now that EJ is out.



so why are people attacking cedric? he held jennings below FIFTY YARDS!


Apparently we're desperate to find the weakest link on our defense, thereby labeling that person as "he's got to go".
When we replace him with a pro bowler, than we can move on to the next weakest link and offer up some FA pro bowlers to fix that problem.


We have to have a weakest link, so we know who's ass to get on when our defense fails to shut down the other team.



just release
sapp. SIGN DEANGELO HALL AND USE CED. AS A 3RD CORNER

jessejames09
11-10-2008, 05:02 PM
"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"seaniemck7" wrote:


"C" wrote:




Yes Leber

He is average


No way... Leber has stepped up. He's better in coverage than Griffin is.


Leber is so under rated its silly.
The does exactly what we ask him to do.
He also wears the radio now that EJ is out.



so why are people attacking cedric? he held jennings below FIFTY YARDS!


Apparently we're desperate to find the weakest link on our defense, thereby labeling that person as "he's got to go".
When we replace him with a pro bowler, than we can move on to the next weakest link and offer up some FA pro bowlers to fix that problem.


We have to have a weakest link, so we know who's ass to get on when our defense fails to shut down the other team.



just release
sapp. SIGN DEANGELO HALL AND USE CED. AS A 3RD CORNER


WE PLAY A COVER 2 BASE. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE DON'T NEED A SPEED/MAN TO MAN GUY RESEARCH A "COVER 2 DEFENSE."

I'm going to stop yelling, not out of principle but out of laziness. If you don't believe he wouldn't fit out scheme look no further than Fred Smoot.

SamOchoCinco
11-10-2008, 05:05 PM
"jessejames09" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"seaniemck7" wrote:






Yes Leber

He is average


No way... Leber has stepped up. He's better in coverage than Griffin is.


Leber is so under rated its silly.
The does exactly what we ask him to do.
He also wears the radio now that EJ is out.



so why are people attacking cedric? he held jennings below FIFTY YARDS!


Apparently we're desperate to find the weakest link on our defense, thereby labeling that person as "he's got to go".
When we replace him with a pro bowler, than we can move on to the next weakest link and offer up some FA pro bowlers to fix that problem.


We have to have a weakest link, so we know who's ass to get on when our defense fails to shut down the other team.



just release
sapp. SIGN DEANGELO HALL AND USE CED. AS A 3RD CORNER


WE PLAY A COVER 2 BASE. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE DON'T NEED A SPEED/MAN TO MAN GUY RESEARCH A "COVER 2 DEFENSE."

I'm going to stop yelling, not out of principle but out of laziness. If you don't believe he wouldn't fit out scheme look no further than Fred Smoot.


ok. theres a diffrence between fred smoot and a pro bowl cornerback..

PRO BOWL CORNERBACKS DONT GIVE UP 200 YARDS
TO STEVE SMITH.

and a speed corner would help in the cover two. and also wouldnt you want a really good return man on top of that? and for cheap too

V4L
11-10-2008, 05:05 PM
ATL actually runs a simular zone D to us and Hall did much better there

With that being said he is a Redskin so it doesn't matter

jessejames09
11-10-2008, 05:14 PM
"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"jessejames09" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:








Yes Leber

He is average


No way... Leber has stepped up. He's better in coverage than Griffin is.


Leber is so under rated its silly.
The does exactly what we ask him to do.
He also wears the radio now that EJ is out.



so why are people attacking cedric? he held jennings below FIFTY YARDS!


Apparently we're desperate to find the weakest link on our defense, thereby labeling that person as "he's got to go".
When we replace him with a pro bowler, than we can move on to the next weakest link and offer up some FA pro bowlers to fix that problem.


We have to have a weakest link, so we know who's ass to get on when our defense fails to shut down the other team.



just release
sapp. SIGN DEANGELO HALL AND USE CED. AS A 3RD CORNER


WE PLAY A COVER 2 BASE. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE DON'T NEED A SPEED/MAN TO MAN GUY RESEARCH A "COVER 2 DEFENSE."

I'm going to stop yelling, not out of principle but out of laziness. If you don't believe he wouldn't fit out scheme look no further than Fred Smoot.


ok. theres a diffrence between fred smoot and a pro bowl cornerback..

PRO BOWL CORNERBACKS DONT GIVE UP 200 YARDS
TO STEVE SMITH.

and a speed corner would help in the cover two. and also wouldnt you want a really good return man on top of that? and for cheap too


Smoot is a good CB in Washington, and he was the first time round too. Just so happens he doesn't fit the cover 2.

ATL doesn't run a cover 2 base defense, a cover 2 is one specific type of zone D, I'm not saying Hall is bad at all zone coverages.

The key is our CBs don't go deep very often. They cover the WR for the first 5 yards or so then let him bypass there zone. After that there job is containment of the outside, at this point they are virtually an OLBer, seeing as their job is then to read, react and make a tackle.

Ever wonder why our CBs make so many stops in the run game?

SamOchoCinco
11-10-2008, 05:21 PM
"jessejames09" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"jessejames09" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:










Yes Leber

He is average


No way... Leber has stepped up. He's better in coverage than Griffin is.


Leber is so under rated its silly.
The does exactly what we ask him to do.
He also wears the radio now that EJ is out.



so why are people attacking cedric? he held jennings below FIFTY YARDS!


Apparently we're desperate to find the weakest link on our defense, thereby labeling that person as "he's got to go".
When we replace him with a pro bowler, than we can move on to the next weakest link and offer up some FA pro bowlers to fix that problem.


We have to have a weakest link, so we know who's ass to get on when our defense fails to shut down the other team.



just release
sapp. SIGN DEANGELO HALL AND USE CED. AS A 3RD CORNER


WE PLAY A COVER 2 BASE. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE DON'T NEED A SPEED/MAN TO MAN GUY RESEARCH A "COVER 2 DEFENSE."

I'm going to stop yelling, not out of principle but out of laziness. If you don't believe he wouldn't fit out scheme look no further than Fred Smoot.


ok. theres a diffrence between fred smoot and a pro bowl cornerback..

PRO BOWL CORNERBACKS DONT GIVE UP 200 YARDS
TO STEVE SMITH.

and a speed corner would help in the cover two. and also wouldnt you want a really good return man on top of that? and for cheap too


Smoot is a good CB in Washington, and he was the first time round too. Just so happens he doesn't fit the cover 2.

ATL doesn't run a cover 2 base defense, a cover 2 is one specific type of zone D, I'm not saying Hall is bad at all zone coverages.

The key is our CBs don't go deep very often. They cover the WR for the first 5 yards or so then let him bypass there zone. After that there job is containment of the outside, at this point they are virtually an OLBer, seeing as their job is then to read, react and make a tackle.

Ever wonder why our CBs make so many stops in the run game?


its obvious they will get tackles in the run game. who wouldnt when you run a cover two.

but im just saying. bring in d-hall! he would help us out alot vs the steve smith's of the NFL

jessejames09
11-10-2008, 06:12 PM
"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"jessejames09" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"jessejames09" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:












Yes Leber

He is average


No way... Leber has stepped up. He's better in coverage than Griffin is.


Leber is so under rated its silly.
The does exactly what we ask him to do.
He also wears the radio now that EJ is out.



so why are people attacking cedric? he held jennings below FIFTY YARDS!


Apparently we're desperate to find the weakest link on our defense, thereby labeling that person as "he's got to go".
When we replace him with a pro bowler, than we can move on to the next weakest link and offer up some FA pro bowlers to fix that problem.


We have to have a weakest link, so we know who's ass to get on when our defense fails to shut down the other team.



just release
sapp. SIGN DEANGELO HALL AND USE CED. AS A 3RD CORNER


WE PLAY A COVER 2 BASE. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE DON'T NEED A SPEED/MAN TO MAN GUY RESEARCH A "COVER 2 DEFENSE."

I'm going to stop yelling, not out of principle but out of laziness. If you don't believe he wouldn't fit out scheme look no further than Fred Smoot.


ok. theres a diffrence between fred smoot and a pro bowl cornerback..

PRO BOWL CORNERBACKS DONT GIVE UP 200 YARDS
TO STEVE SMITH.

and a speed corner would help in the cover two. and also wouldnt you want a really good return man on top of that? and for cheap too


Smoot is a good CB in Washington, and he was the first time round too. Just so happens he doesn't fit the cover 2.

ATL doesn't run a cover 2 base defense, a cover 2 is one specific type of zone D, I'm not saying Hall is bad at all zone coverages.

The key is our CBs don't go deep very often. They cover the WR for the first 5 yards or so then let him bypass there zone. After that there job is containment of the outside, at this point they are virtually an OLBer, seeing as their job is then to read, react and make a tackle.

Ever wonder why our CBs make so many stops in the run game?


its obvious they will get tackles in the run game. who wouldnt when you run a cover two.

but im just saying. bring in d-hall! he would help us out alot vs the steve smith's of the NFL


Who wouldn't? You think every CB can tackle as well as Griffin and A Dub.

If only we had someone who could contain the steve smtihs... Wait Tyrell and Griffin contained SS himself this year if my memory serves me correctly. Problem solved.

ragz
11-11-2008, 12:19 AM
"jessejames09" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"jessejames09" wrote:


"SamOchoCinco" wrote:


"jessejames09" wrote:














Yes Leber

He is average


No way... Leber has stepped up. He's better in coverage than Griffin is.


Leber is so under rated its silly.
The does exactly what we ask him to do.
He also wears the radio now that EJ is out.



so why are people attacking cedric? he held jennings below FIFTY YARDS!


Apparently we're desperate to find the weakest link on our defense, thereby labeling that person as "he's got to go".
When we replace him with a pro bowler, than we can move on to the next weakest link and offer up some FA pro bowlers to fix that problem.


We have to have a weakest link, so we know who's jiggly butt to get on when our defense fails to shut down the other team.



just release
sapp. SIGN DEANGELO HALL AND USE CED. AS A 3RD CORNER


WE PLAY A COVER 2 BASE. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE DON'T NEED A SPEED/MAN TO MAN GUY RESEARCH A "COVER 2 DEFENSE."

I'm going to stop yelling, not out of principle but out of laziness. If you don't believe he wouldn't fit out scheme look no further than Fred Smoot.


ok. theres a diffrence between fred smoot and a pro bowl cornerback..

PRO BOWL CORNERBACKS DONT GIVE UP 200 YARDS
TO STEVE SMITH.

and a speed corner would help in the cover two. and also wouldnt you want a really good return man on top of that? and for cheap too


Smoot is a good CB in Washington, and he was the first time round too. Just so happens he doesn't fit the cover 2.

ATL doesn't run a cover 2 base defense, a cover 2 is one specific type of zone D, I'm not saying Hall is bad at all zone coverages.

The key is our CBs don't go deep very often. They cover the WR for the first 5 yards or so then let him bypass there zone. After that there job is containment of the outside, at this point they are virtually an OLBer, seeing as their job is then to read, react and make a tackle.

Ever wonder why our CBs make so many stops in the run game?


its obvious they will get tackles in the run game. who wouldnt when you run a cover two.

but im just saying. bring in d-hall! he would help us out alot vs the steve smith's of the NFL


Who wouldn't? You think every CB can tackle as well as Griffin and A Dub.

If only we had someone who could contain the steve smtihs... Wait Tyrell and Griffin contained SS himself this year if my memory serves me correctly. Problem solved.

so did the oakland raiders.
their pass offense is not that good.
but i'll give griffin credit for staying quiet in the 2nd half.
all that slant shit they did in the first half didnt seem to be there so i guess he(they) fixed whatever the problem was.

BloodyHorns82
11-11-2008, 12:57 AM
Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.

happy camper
11-11-2008, 12:59 AM
Is Hall Statistically The Worst Corner In 2008? (http://www.realgmfootball.com/src_wiretap_archives/9710/20081110/is_hall_statisically_the_worst_corner_in_2008/)


Stats Inc. came up with an intriguing stat about Hall's horrid play so far: He surrendered 40 receptions for 556 yards this year, more receiving yards than any other cornerback allowed through nine weeks. [...]
Hall has always talked a great game, but this year he proved he can't play one. He should be no more than a third corner behind Shawn Springs and Carlos Rogers when Springs returns from his calf injury.

I'm sorry but the story is always the same. A recognizable name becomes available then people jump on the bandwagon labeling said name as better than what we have and we should get him. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Thanks to the front office for not aggressively pursuing Hall. No wonder teams like the Giants do better without players like Shockey and the Falcons do better without Hall. Because those guys have talent but dealing with the asshole factor does not make up for it.

V4L
11-11-2008, 01:04 AM
5 Receptions and 69 yards a game isnt bad at all

Expecially when they refuse to throw at Asomugha and the Raiders D line can't get any pressure

They took Hall out of his element by making him play man.. he isn't good at it.. But still did alright considering the circumstances

He is also a very good return man.. And would fit a zone much better

But why are we still talking about hall?

ragz
11-11-2008, 01:25 AM
"happy" wrote:


Is Hall Statistically The Worst Corner In 2008? (http://www.realgmfootball.com/src_wiretap_archives/9710/20081110/is_hall_statisically_the_worst_corner_in_2008/)


Stats Inc. came up with an intriguing stat about Hall's horrid play so far: He surrendered 40 receptions for 556 yards this year, more receiving yards than any other cornerback allowed through nine weeks. [...]
Hall has always talked a great game, but this year he proved he can't play one. He should be no more than a third corner behind Shawn Springs and Carlos Rogers when Springs returns from his calf injury.

I'm sorry but the story is always the same. A recognizable name becomes available then people jump on the bandwagon labeling said name as better than what we have and we should get him. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Thanks to the front office for not aggressively pursuing Hall. No wonder teams like the Giants do better without players like Shockey and the Falcons do better without Hall. Because those guys have talent but dealing with the donkey butt factor does not make up for it.

well this kinda stuff always happens.
but i wonder what griffins stats are compared to that.
hasn't given up huge plays but
catches has to be high depending on how they determine that stuff with zone type coverages.

singersp
11-11-2008, 05:01 AM
"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... Damn few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.

tastywaves
11-11-2008, 08:49 AM
"singersp" wrote:


"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Its not just receivers he's tackling.
And its not always his receiver that he's bringing down.
AW is also high up on the tackle list, since he's never targeted according to many on this site, how come he has so many tackles?
Ced has 52 tackes while Winfield has 45 according to nfl.com.

I know, I know until he starts getting INT's he's a worthless CB.

Marrdro
11-11-2008, 08:52 AM
"happy" wrote:


Is Hall Statistically The Worst Corner In 2008? (http://www.realgmfootball.com/src_wiretap_archives/9710/20081110/is_hall_statisically_the_worst_corner_in_2008/)


Stats Inc. came up with an intriguing stat about Hall's horrid play so far: He surrendered 40 receptions for 556 yards this year, more receiving yards than any other cornerback allowed through nine weeks. [...]
Hall has always talked a great game, but this year he proved he can't play one. He should be no more than a third corner behind Shawn Springs and Carlos Rogers when Springs returns from his calf injury.

I'm sorry but the story is always the same. A recognizable name becomes available then people jump on the bandwagon labeling said name as better than what we have and we should get him. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Thanks to the front office for not aggressively pursuing Hall. No wonder teams like the Giants do better without players like Shockey and the Falcons do better without Hall. Because those guys have talent but dealing with the donkey butt factor does not make up for it.

Excellent post my friend.
Can't believe I saw a desire for the services of Hall by actual Vikings fans.
What has this world come to.
:'(

ragz
11-11-2008, 05:33 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Its not just receivers he's tackling.
And its not always his receiver that he's bringing down.
AW is also high up on the tackle list, since he's never targeted according to many on this site, how come he has so many tackles?
Ced has 52 tackes while Winfield has 45 according to nfl.com.

I know, I know until he starts getting INT's he's a worthless CB.

tasty dont bs us.
i'm sure you watch the games.
you know winfield doesn't get targetted anywhere close to as much as griffin, and that the tackles they are getting are much different.
i'm sure most of winfields tackles are coming in his support of the run, when you know damn well that at least half of griffins tackles have come off of receptions on him.
nobody has claimed he doesnt play the run well, but hes not a defensive tackle, so it would be nice for him to be consistent in pass coverage and make some plays there.
is that asking too much.
another guy people wanna show all this patience with but for some reason tjack had to be a superstar after 16 starts

PackSux!
11-11-2008, 05:46 PM
"ragz" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Its not just receivers he's tackling.
And its not always his receiver that he's bringing down.
AW is also high up on the tackle list, since he's never targeted according to many on this site, how come he has so many tackles?
Ced has 52 tackes while Winfield has 45 according to nfl.com.

I know, I know until he starts getting INT's he's a worthless CB.

tasty dont bs us.
i'm sure you watch the games.
you know winfield doesn't get targetted anywhere close to as much as griffin, and that the tackles they are getting are much different.
i'm sure most of winfields tackles are coming in his support of the run, when you know gol 'darnit well that at least half of griffins tackles have come off of receptions on him.
nobody has claimed he doesnt play the run well, but hes not a defensive tackle, so it would be nice for him to be consistent in pass coverage and make some plays there.
is that asking too much.
another guy people wanna show all this patience with but for some reason tjack had to be a superstar after 16 starts


What you say is 50/50and if that is the case.
Keep up the good work Cedrick!

Freya
11-11-2008, 05:50 PM
"singersp" wrote:


"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Thank you. Well said.

The opposing OC's are not stupid. They play his side far more than Winfields.
He has 1 maybe 2 good tackles in a game. I mean those that help the team. But considering how much ball play he sees, that's pretty weak.

ragz
11-11-2008, 06:50 PM
"PackSux!" wrote:


"ragz" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Its not just receivers he's tackling.
And its not always his receiver that he's bringing down.
AW is also high up on the tackle list, since he's never targeted according to many on this site, how come he has so many tackles?
Ced has 52 tackes while Winfield has 45 according to nfl.com.

I know, I know until he starts getting INT's he's a worthless CB.

tasty dont bs us.
i'm sure you watch the games.
you know winfield doesn't get targetted anywhere close to as much as griffin, and that the tackles they are getting are much different.
i'm sure most of winfields tackles are coming in his support of the run, when you know gol 'darnit well that at least half of griffins tackles have come off of receptions on him.
nobody has claimed he doesnt play the run well, but hes not a defensive tackle, so it would be nice for him to be consistent in pass coverage and make some plays there.
is that asking too much.
another guy people wanna show all this patience with but for some reason tjack had to be a superstar after 16 starts


What you say is 50/50and if that is the case.
Keep up the good work Cedrick!

i said at least.
it could be more like 75/25 pass/run.
the point is, too much is given up by him, and the way its given up is very frustrating cuz it seems like its something they are just giving away.
that may not be all his fault, but yac, and ball skills on deep passes is his fault, so he deserves the criticism.
but he hasn't been terrible the last couple of weeks.
they may be figuring out the best way to use him.
still got 7 more games to see.

tastywaves
11-12-2008, 09:56 AM
"ragz" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Its not just receivers he's tackling.
And its not always his receiver that he's bringing down.
AW is also high up on the tackle list, since he's never targeted according to many on this site, how come he has so many tackles?
Ced has 52 tackes while Winfield has 45 according to nfl.com.

I know, I know until he starts getting INT's he's a worthless CB.

tasty dont bs us.
i'm sure you watch the games.
you know winfield doesn't get targetted anywhere close to as much as griffin, and that the tackles they are getting are much different.
i'm sure most of winfields tackles are coming in his support of the run, when you know gol 'darnit well that at least half of griffins tackles have come off of receptions on him.
nobody has claimed he doesnt play the run well, but hes not a defensive tackle, so it would be nice for him to be consistent in pass coverage and make some plays there.
is that asking too much.
another guy people wanna show all this patience with but for some reason tjack had to be a superstar after 16 starts


The point I was trying to make on the tackles was simply directed at Singer's deduction that because of Cedric's large number of tackles that he must be giving up a lot of receptions.


You're saying that when Winfield gets a tackle, its because he is tackling runners, whereas when Cedric tackles someone it is a receiver.
That at least has some merit for a discussion, but I would like to see some numbers to help validate that theory.
Early on when this conversation got started and everybody was focused on Cedric's perceived poor play, I looked at how many times the passes went to AW vs Cedric and it was very close.
I only did it for the one game where Cedric was really getting blasted.
If it was done for the year, I would expect to a fair amount more of the passes directed towards cedric than Winfield, but its not like AW is a shut down corner that opposing QB's are afraid to throw against.
The target is based more on the matchup and you will see the #1 receiver against Cedric a lot.
Cedric is no doubt considered the easier target and this position could be upgraded, I just don't think he's near as weak as a lot of people make him out to be.
Just misunderstood, kind of like me.
Until he makes the flashy plays he will continued to blasted by many.

One more thought for those that have noticed that his play has been pretty solid over the last couple of weeks.
Have you noticed that are front 4 have been getting a lot more pressure as well, and we haven't had to throw as many LB'ers into blitz packages allowing them to help out in zone coverage.
This also allows Cedric to play more aggressive and take the guy on the line more often.

Purple Floyd
11-12-2008, 12:42 PM
"ragz" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Its not just receivers he's tackling.
And its not always his receiver that he's bringing down.
AW is also high up on the tackle list, since he's never targeted according to many on this site, how come he has so many tackles?
Ced has 52 tackes while Winfield has 45 according to nfl.com.

I know, I know until he starts getting INT's he's a worthless CB.

tasty dont bs us.
i'm sure you watch the games.
you know winfield doesn't get targetted anywhere close to as much as griffin, and that the tackles they are getting are much different.
i'm sure most of winfields tackles are coming in his support of the run, when you know damn well that at least half of griffins tackles have come off of receptions on him.
nobody has claimed he doesnt play the run well, but hes not a defensive tackle, so it would be nice for him to be consistent in pass coverage and make some plays there.
is that asking too much.
another guy people wanna show all this patience with but for some reason tjack had to be a superstar after 16 starts


he just needs a few more years in the system.

ragz
11-12-2008, 11:48 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"ragz" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Its not just receivers he's tackling.
And its not always his receiver that he's bringing down.
AW is also high up on the tackle list, since he's never targeted according to many on this site, how come he has so many tackles?
Ced has 52 tackes while Winfield has 45 according to nfl.com.

I know, I know until he starts getting INT's he's a worthless CB.

tasty dont bs us.
i'm sure you watch the games.
you know winfield doesn't get targetted anywhere close to as much as griffin, and that the tackles they are getting are much different.
i'm sure most of winfields tackles are coming in his support of the run, when you know gol 'darnit well that at least half of griffins tackles have come off of receptions on him.
nobody has claimed he doesnt play the run well, but hes not a defensive tackle, so it would be nice for him to be consistent in pass coverage and make some plays there.
is that asking too much.
another guy people wanna show all this patience with but for some reason tjack had to be a superstar after 16 starts


The point I was trying to make on the tackles was simply directed at Singer's deduction that because of Cedric's large number of tackles that he must be giving up a lot of receptions.


You're saying that when Winfield gets a tackle, its because he is tackling runners, whereas when Cedric tackles someone it is a receiver.
That at least has some merit for a discussion, but I would like to see some numbers to help validate that theory.
Early on when this conversation got started and everybody was focused on Cedric's perceived poor play, I looked at how many times the passes went to AW vs Cedric and it was very close.
I only did it for the one game where Cedric was really getting blasted.
If it was done for the year, I would expect to a fair amount more of the passes directed towards cedric than Winfield, but its not like AW is a shut down corner that opposing QB's are afraid to throw against.
The target is based more on the matchup and you will see the #1 receiver against Cedric a lot.
Cedric is no doubt considered the easier target and this position could be upgraded, I just don't think he's near as weak as a lot of people make him out to be.
Just misunderstood, kind of like me.
Until he makes the flashy plays he will continued to blasted by many.

One more thought for those that have noticed that his play has been pretty solid over the last couple of weeks.
Have you noticed that are front 4 have been getting a lot more pressure as well, and we haven't had to throw as many LB'ers into blitz packages allowing them to help out in zone coverage.
This also allows Cedric to play more aggressive and take the guy on the line more often.

it would be interesting to see the numbers cuz you could very well be right.
but just from getting to watch the games, and only once a week cuz i dont have nfl network for replay, it doesn't appear that its even.
it looks like more on griffin and the number 1 wr might be the reason also.
as for the front four that is true, but i think the fact that they have had time to get to the qb too is a big part of their pressure.
in alot of games this year teams have been able to get the ball out quick and we didn't have enough time to get pressure on the qb.
alot of that problem was the cushion griffin was giving and the soft zone we play as a whole.
i think maybe with m.williams back they might be letting griffin play closer to the line of scrimmage which is maybe taking away the short stuff that was eating us up alive.
who knows?
i could be coming around and then he gets tore up this week and i'll be livid.

V4L
11-23-2008, 07:20 PM
Cedric was ballin ONCE AGAIN TODAY

A very very very nice string on good games from the man

The dude was not letting the WRs off the line when we jammed.. Had a few pass break ups.. A forced fumble.. Some great run support

The dude is maturing even more

Cedric is the shit.. He played the man to man very very well too.. I saw Winny not make a few plays and Griff didn't give up shit.. Winny had a great pass break up though

NeoVikesTX
11-23-2008, 07:32 PM
"V4L" wrote:


Cedric was ballin ONCE AGAIN TODAY

A very very very nice string on good games from the man

The dude was not letting the WRs off the line when we jammed.. Had a few pass break ups.. A forced fumble.. Some great run support

The dude is maturing even more

Cedric is the pooh.. He played the man to man very very well too.. I saw Winny not make a few plays and Griff didn't give up pooh.. Winny had a great pass break up though


Agreed.
CGriff is a solid young corner.
Not quite sure why some people rip on him every week.
Yes, he doesn't have 3 interceptions a game, but most corners don't.
He can hit hard and force fumbles.

V4L
11-23-2008, 07:34 PM
Yah it is VERY hard to get picks in our scheme

Madieu has 2 and 1 was a jump ball with a lame duck.. And one today was a badly over thrown ball

Sharper has zero

Griff has zero

And Winny has 3.. The only one he really had to work for was the one against Peyton which was a great great play

Otherwise the WRs get out of our zones and it's hard to get turnovers

CCthebest
11-23-2008, 08:53 PM
So he had 1 good game, dont blow your wad over it.

duvaldomo
11-23-2008, 09:03 PM
I think hes been solid for the past couple weeks, just not great

V4L
11-23-2008, 09:17 PM
"CCthebest" wrote:


So he had 1 good game, dont blow your wad over it.




What do you call shutting down Andre Johnson and Greg Jennings?

How about not giving up shit in the Bucs game

Did good against Chi and Det as well

New Orleans did pretty good but didnt do anything special

Multiple good
games in a row by Cedric don't kid yourself cuz you hate him

tb04512
11-23-2008, 09:22 PM
he has been playing good ball for the past few weeks, finally getting to press looks like its helped a bit!
i will proudly strut in my signed griffin jersey tomorrow
;D

V4L
11-23-2008, 09:25 PM
"tb04512" wrote:


he has been playing good ball for the past few weeks, finally getting to press looks like its helped a bit!
i will proudly strut in my signed griffin jersey tomorrow
;D




Haha Jealous!!

I brought a mini Vikes helmet to the game and SamOchoCinco and I were waiting for autographs.. Cedric came up and he was the autograph I wanted.. But little kids were trying so hard to get one so I let them go ahead and get them

Made me sad but I know how much it means to those little guys

I also got a pair of Kevin Williams game gloves and gave away one to a little kid and said merry christmas

It makes them light up and I love seeing that.. I know when I was little I loved meeting the players and getting autographs.. They really are your heros back then

tb04512
11-23-2008, 09:28 PM
"V4L" wrote:


"tb04512" wrote:


he has been playing good ball for the past few weeks, finally getting to press looks like its helped a bit!
i will proudly strut in my signed griffin jersey tomorrow
;D




Haha Jealous!!

I brought a mini Vikes helmet to the game and SamOchoCinco and I were waiting for autographs.. Cedric came up and he was the autograph I wanted.. But little kids were trying so hard to get one so I let them go ahead and get them

Made me sad but I know how much it means to those little guys

I also got a pair of Kevin Williams game gloves and gave away one to a little kid and said merry christmas

It makes them light up and I love seeing that.. I know when I was little I loved meeting the players and getting autographs.. They really are your heros back then
for sure man they were
i got his jersey custom made his rookie year, then got it signed last summer at the MOA when they do the roster intros, i got in his line to sign it he was like, " Man where did you get this?!?!"

ragz
11-23-2008, 10:51 PM
he has been playing well.
but just like people were giving him a pass due to the system, its a little overboard to say "he" shut down anybody.
i'm not sure if they are using him differently or if hes just doing a better job in his role, but he has been playing well.

ThorSPL
11-23-2008, 10:54 PM
I've been very happy with his play the last 3-4 games....

Keep letting him develop.
Though I DO want to see McCauley out there.... I was a fan when he played.

kspurplepride
11-23-2008, 10:59 PM
why does everyone want McCauley? The kid has been burned by his share of receivers... not to mention he put on all that weight in the off season

Yfz01
11-23-2008, 11:03 PM
"V4L" wrote:


Yah it is VERY hard to get picks in our scheme

Madieu has 2 and 1 was a jump ball with a lame duck.. And one today was a badly over thrown ball

Sharper has zero

Griff has zero

And Winny has 3.. The only one he really had to work for was the one against Peyton which was a great great play

Otherwise the WRs get out of our zones and it's hard to get turnovers


Our team is having a hard time get interceptions - we've had our chances though, and doesn't Antoine only have two?

Antoine Winfield - 2 interceptions
Madieu Williams - 2 interceptions
Ben Leber - 1 interceptions
Tyrell Johnson - 1 interceptions
Charles Gordon - 1 interceptions
Benny Sap - 1 interceptions

ragz
11-23-2008, 11:05 PM
"Yfz01" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


Yah it is VERY hard to get picks in our scheme

Madieu has 2 and 1 was a jump ball with a lame duck.. And one today was a badly over thrown ball

Sharper has zero

Griff has zero

And Winny has 3.. The only one he really had to work for was the one against Peyton which was a great great play

Otherwise the WRs get out of our zones and it's hard to get turnovers


Our team is having a hard time get interceptions - we've had our chances though, and doesn't Antoine only have two?

Antoine Winfield - 2 interceptions
Madieu Williams - 2 interceptions
Ben Leber - 1 interceptions
Tyrell Johnson - 1 interceptions
Charles Gordon - 1 interceptions
Benny Sap - 1 interceptions

good point, and before we shell out all this love, its not exactly like garrard had a terrible day.
pretty much everyone else did, but they moved the ball on us all day.
we got outplayed, but they are just so bad and made so many mistakes it made it that easy for us to blow them out.

tastywaves
11-24-2008, 01:58 PM
"ragz" wrote:


he has been playing well.
but just like people were giving him a pass due to the system, its a little overboard to say "he" shut down anybody.
i'm not sure if they are using him differently or if hes just doing a better job in his role, but he has been playing well.


I think Madieu has a lot to do with it as well. I've also noticed that Sharper and Madieu switch sides of the field quite a bit.
You'll see Sharper and Griffin on one side fairly often whereas this didn't happen when Tyrell was playing (at least I didn't notice it).
Not sure why exactly, but its possibly because they consider Griffin the better cover corner....
lmao.
Seriously though, why did they always match Tyrell with Griffin, but with Madieu they move him from one side to the other?
Yesterday's game would be a good one to re-watch as Gerrard seemed a lot more willing to throw on Winfield vs. Griffin.
Maybe the guy has a hard time turning his head to the left or his favorite receiver kept lining up on the right?
I'm curious to see how that effected where they put Madieu.

Marrdro
11-24-2008, 03:29 PM
"V4L" wrote:


"CCthebest" wrote:


So he had 1 good game, dont blow your wad over it.




What do you call shutting down Andre Johnson and Greg Jennings?

How about not giving up pooh in the Bucs game

Did good against Chi and Det as well

New Orleans did pretty good but didnt do anything special

Multiple good
games in a row by Cedric don't kid yourself cuz you hate him

Forget it my friend.
Once these guys get a bit in thier mouth they ain't gonna let it loose.


Truth be told, now that M-will is in the lineup I see Griff taking a more aggresive role at the line and mostly against thier number 1 reciever.
Heck the last two games he has swapped places with Whinny so he could stay with thier number 1 but very few have even mentioned that.

Additionally, I really like how the staff has replace ole Whinny on ST's for Sapp.
Him and Griff played some damn good special teams yesterday.
Of course, the Sapp move was lost on most as well.
;D

Marrdro
11-24-2008, 03:32 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"ragz" wrote:


he has been playing well.
but just like people were giving him a pass due to the system, its a little overboard to say "he" shut down anybody.
i'm not sure if they are using him differently or if hes just doing a better job in his role, but he has been playing well.


I think Madieu has a lot to do with it as well. I've also noticed that Sharper and Madieu switch sides of the field quite a bit.
You'll see Sharper and Griffin on one side fairly often whereas this didn't happen when Tyrell was playing (at least I didn't notice it).
Not sure why exactly, but its possibly because they consider Griffin the better cover corner....
lmao.
Seriously though, why did they always match Tyrell with Griffin, but with Madieu they move him from one side to the other?
Yesterday's game would be a good one to re-watch as Gerrard seemed a lot more willing to throw on Winfield vs. Griffin.

Maybe the guy has a hard time turning his head to the left or his favorite receiver kept lining up on the right?
I'm curious to see how that effected where they put Madieu.


Tasty, as always, you make some very astute observations.


I mentioned back in week 3 (I think) that they should move STJ over to Whinnys side and move Sharp over to Griffs side.
Would even the experience level out a bit was my rationale.

Now I think what you are seeing is a bit more indepth as they are matching Griff up one on one with thier best reciever and letting him get physical with him at the line.
The side switches you are seeing is a result of that.


At least thats the way I see it from my recliner..... ;D

Marrdro
11-24-2008, 03:37 PM
"Freya" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Thank you. Well said.

The opposing OC's are not stupid. They play his side far more than Winfields.
He has 1 maybe 2 good tackles in a game. I mean those that help the team. But considering how much ball play he sees, that's pretty weak.

Comeon young lady.
You must not have watched the last 2 games as they targeted Whinny alot more than they have Griff.


Case in point, this week they were going to Whinny's side so much Griff actually left his man (singled up) and blitzed.
Got there late, but he got to blitz none the less.

Long story short, with the addition of M-will to help out over the top, Griff has been allowed to play a bit more to his strenght which is that of a bigger, more physical CB and is pressing at the line more.


Funny how Singer and the other cats seem to have missed that over the last 2 or 3 games as they have been crying for it for as long as the Cover 2 has been here.
;D

Marrdro
11-24-2008, 03:40 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


The point I was trying to make on the tackles was simply directed at Singer's deduction that because of Cedric's large number of tackles that he must be giving up a lot of receptions.


You're saying that when Winfield gets a tackle, its because he is tackling runners, whereas when Cedric tackles someone it is a receiver.
That at least has some merit for a discussion, but I would like to see some numbers to help validate that theory.
Early on when this conversation got started and everybody was focused on Cedric's perceived poor play, I looked at how many times the passes went to AW vs Cedric and it was very close.
I only did it for the one game where Cedric was really getting blasted.
If it was done for the year, I would expect to a fair amount more of the passes directed towards cedric than Winfield, but its not like AW is a shut down corner that opposing QB's are afraid to throw against.
The target is based more on the matchup and you will see the #1 receiver against Cedric a lot.
Cedric is no doubt considered the easier target and this position could be upgraded, I just don't think he's near as weak as a lot of people make him out to be.
Just misunderstood, kind of like me.
Until he makes the flashy plays he will continued to blasted by many.

One more thought for those that have noticed that his play has been pretty solid over the last couple of weeks.
Have you noticed that are front 4 have been getting a lot more pressure as well, and we haven't had to throw as many LB'ers into blitz packages allowing them to help out in zone coverage.
This also allows Cedric to play more aggressive and take the guy on the line more often.

Best post I've read on here in along time.
;D

Top Shelf my friend, Top Shelf indeed.

tastywaves
11-24-2008, 03:50 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"ragz" wrote:


he has been playing well.
but just like people were giving him a pass due to the system, its a little overboard to say "he" shut down anybody.
i'm not sure if they are using him differently or if hes just doing a better job in his role, but he has been playing well.


I think Madieu has a lot to do with it as well. I've also noticed that Sharper and Madieu switch sides of the field quite a bit.
You'll see Sharper and Griffin on one side fairly often whereas this didn't happen when Tyrell was playing (at least I didn't notice it).
Not sure why exactly, but its possibly because they consider Griffin the better cover corner....
lmao.
Seriously though, why did they always match Tyrell with Griffin, but with Madieu they move him from one side to the other?
Yesterday's game would be a good one to re-watch as Gerrard seemed a lot more willing to throw on Winfield vs. Griffin.

Maybe the guy has a hard time turning his head to the left or his favorite receiver kept lining up on the right?
I'm curious to see how that effected where they put Madieu.


Tasty, as always, you make some very astute observations.


I mentioned back in week 3 (I think) that they should move STJ over to Whinnys side and move Sharp over to Griffs side.
Would even the experience level out a bit was my rationale.

Now I think what you are seeing is a bit more indepth as they are matching Griff up one on one with thier best reciever and letting him get physical with him at the line.
The side switches you are seeing is a result of that.


At least thats the way I see it from my recliner..... ;D


I thought Sharper was playing on the left side of the field with Cedric on occassion.

I was thinking that they consider Madieu the better cover safety of the two and depending on the receiver formation they move him over.
It may also be that Madieu just offers them a lot more flexibility in how they want to use the secondary and mix it up a lot more whereas with Tyrell they tried to keep it simple and left him on the weak side.

Marrdro
11-24-2008, 03:56 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"ragz" wrote:


he has been playing well.
but just like people were giving him a pass due to the system, its a little overboard to say "he" shut down anybody.
i'm not sure if they are using him differently or if hes just doing a better job in his role, but he has been playing well.


I think Madieu has a lot to do with it as well. I've also noticed that Sharper and Madieu switch sides of the field quite a bit.
You'll see Sharper and Griffin on one side fairly often whereas this didn't happen when Tyrell was playing (at least I didn't notice it).
Not sure why exactly, but its possibly because they consider Griffin the better cover corner....
lmao.
Seriously though, why did they always match Tyrell with Griffin, but with Madieu they move him from one side to the other?
Yesterday's game would be a good one to re-watch as Gerrard seemed a lot more willing to throw on Winfield vs. Griffin.

Maybe the guy has a hard time turning his head to the left or his favorite receiver kept lining up on the right?
I'm curious to see how that effected where they put Madieu.


Tasty, as always, you make some very astute observations.


I mentioned back in week 3 (I think) that they should move STJ over to Whinnys side and move Sharp over to Griffs side.
Would even the experience level out a bit was my rationale.

Now I think what you are seeing is a bit more indepth as they are matching Griff up one on one with thier best reciever and letting him get physical with him at the line.
The side switches you are seeing is a result of that.


At least thats the way I see it from my recliner..... ;D


I thought Sharper was playing on the left side of the field with Cedric on occassion.

I was thinking that they consider Madieu the better cover safety of the two and depending on the receiver formation they move him over.
It may also be that Madieu just offers them a lot more flexibility in how they want to use the secondary and mix it up a lot more whereas with Tyrell they tried to keep it simple and left him on the weak side.


I don't quite get that visibility from my TV, however, that might be happening.
Not sure, but at one point I thought I saw the following lineup....

















M-will












LB


LB

LB


Sapp
Griff








DE

DT
DT
DE




Whinny





Again, hard to really see the lineups but I thought they pulled Sharp and left a LB in when you would have thought they would go to a more traditional nickle package.

Regardless, even though Leslie can't figure out how to use his front 4 he is being created with his secondary of late.

tastywaves
11-24-2008, 04:05 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


"ragz" wrote:


he has been playing well.
but just like people were giving him a pass due to the system, its a little overboard to say "he" shut down anybody.
i'm not sure if they are using him differently or if hes just doing a better job in his role, but he has been playing well.


I think Madieu has a lot to do with it as well. I've also noticed that Sharper and Madieu switch sides of the field quite a bit.
You'll see Sharper and Griffin on one side fairly often whereas this didn't happen when Tyrell was playing (at least I didn't notice it).
Not sure why exactly, but its possibly because they consider Griffin the better cover corner....
lmao.
Seriously though, why did they always match Tyrell with Griffin, but with Madieu they move him from one side to the other?
Yesterday's game would be a good one to re-watch as Gerrard seemed a lot more willing to throw on Winfield vs. Griffin.

Maybe the guy has a hard time turning his head to the left or his favorite receiver kept lining up on the right?
I'm curious to see how that effected where they put Madieu.


Tasty, as always, you make some very astute observations.


I mentioned back in week 3 (I think) that they should move STJ over to Whinnys side and move Sharp over to Griffs side.
Would even the experience level out a bit was my rationale.

Now I think what you are seeing is a bit more indepth as they are matching Griff up one on one with thier best reciever and letting him get physical with him at the line.
The side switches you are seeing is a result of that.


At least thats the way I see it from my recliner..... ;D


I thought Sharper was playing on the left side of the field with Cedric on occassion.

I was thinking that they consider Madieu the better cover safety of the two and depending on the receiver formation they move him over.
It may also be that Madieu just offers them a lot more flexibility in how they want to use the secondary and mix it up a lot more whereas with Tyrell they tried to keep it simple and left him on the weak side.


I don't quite get that visibility from my TV, however, that might be happening.
Not sure, but at one point I thought I saw the following lineup....

















M-will












LB



LB

LB


Sapp
Griff








DE

DT

DT
DE




Whinny





Again, hard to really see the lineups but I thought they pulled Sharp and left a LB in when you would have thought they would go to a more traditional nickle package.

Regardless, even though Leslie can't figure out how to use his front 4 he is being created with his secondary of late.





I don't remember that personnel package, but could of happened.
They've definitely been mixing up the secondary as of late, got to believe it has a lot to do with Madieu in the lineup.

erik5032
11-24-2008, 04:47 PM
If next season M. Williams can stay healthy... man he is good

SamOchoCinco
11-24-2008, 05:17 PM
personally i think he has been stepping up his game.

but he still needs to play better coverage

singersp
11-25-2008, 06:39 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"Freya" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Thank you. Well said.

The opposing OC's are not stupid. They play his side far more than Winfields.
He has 1 maybe 2 good tackles in a game. I mean those that help the team. But considering how much ball play he sees, that's pretty weak.

Comeon young lady.
You must not have watched the last 2 games as they targeted Whinny alot more than they have Griff.


Case in point, this week they were going to Whinny's side so much Griff actually left his man (singled up) and blitzed.
Got there late, but he got to blitz none the less.

Long story short, with the addition of M-will to help out over the top, Griff has been allowed to play a bit more to his strenght which is that of a bigger, more physical CB and is pressing at the line more.


Funny how Singer and the other cats seem to have missed that over the last 2 or 3 games as they have been crying for it for as long as the Cover 2 has been here.

;D


I didn't miss it, in fact I mentioned it in a thread & even gave Griffin some kudos for that game, but alas I believe you were away shooting at deer, turkeys & quaffing "The Beast" during that spell.

I'm also aware that Griffin does get tackles on runners just as Winfield does, in fact I believe Griffin does a very good job in that aspect of the game. He also does better at man-to-man than when giving a cushion.

Yes Marr, I also noticed that a lot of passes went Winfield's way on Sunday, but my post was before that game. Still if you look at the season overall, you will find that Cedric's side has been targeted a lot more than Winfield's side has & a lot more passes given up on that side.

Look what happens when we play more man-to-man. Rather than give a nice cushion & give up short pass after short pass after short pass & allowing our opponents to keep moving the sticks, blanket that receiver & take passing to him right out of the picture.

ragz
11-25-2008, 06:55 AM
"singersp" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"Freya" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Thank you. Well said.

The opposing OC's are not stupid. They play his side far more than Winfields.
He has 1 maybe 2 good tackles in a game. I mean those that help the team. But considering how much ball play he sees, that's pretty weak.

Comeon young lady.
You must not have watched the last 2 games as they targeted Whinny alot more than they have Griff.


Case in point, this week they were going to Whinny's side so much Griff actually left his man (singled up) and blitzed.
Got there late, but he got to blitz none the less.

Long story short, with the addition of M-will to help out over the top, Griff has been allowed to play a bit more to his strenght which is that of a bigger, more physical CB and is pressing at the line more.


Funny how Singer and the other cats seem to have missed that over the last 2 or 3 games as they have been crying for it for as long as the Cover 2 has been here.

;D


I didn't miss it, in fact I mentioned it in a thread & even gave Griffin some kudos for that game, but alas I believe you were away shooting at deer, turkeys & quaffing "The Beast" during that spell.

I'm also aware that Griffin does get tackles on runners just as Winfield does, in fact I believe Griffin does a very good job in that aspect of the game. He also does better at man-to-man than when giving a cushion.

Yes Marr, I also noticed that a lot of passes went Winfield's way on Sunday, but my post was before that game. Still if you look at the season overall, you will find that Cedric's side has been targeted a lot more than Winfield's side has & a lot more passes given up on that side.

Look what happens when we play more man-to-man. Rather than give a nice cushion & give up short pass after short pass after short pass & allowing our opponents to keep moving the sticks, blanket that receiver & take passing to him right out of the picture.

exactly, and i dont know why it took so long for them to do more of that.
plus it will give our line more time to get pressure.
if you give the qbs quick reads with the cushions, whats the point of having a jared allen.
but the bears threw all over us last time, but this one is in our house and hopefully m.williams continues to play.
we gotta get this one, and griffin can't be letting booker catch a 5 yard curl and then run around him and the rest of the secondary for a 50 yard td.

Marrdro
11-25-2008, 10:02 AM
"ragz" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"Freya" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:




Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Thank you. Well said.

The opposing OC's are not stupid. They play his side far more than Winfields.
He has 1 maybe 2 good tackles in a game. I mean those that help the team. But considering how much ball play he sees, that's pretty weak.

Comeon young lady.
You must not have watched the last 2 games as they targeted Whinny alot more than they have Griff.


Case in point, this week they were going to Whinny's side so much Griff actually left his man (singled up) and blitzed.
Got there late, but he got to blitz none the less.

Long story short, with the addition of M-will to help out over the top, Griff has been allowed to play a bit more to his strenght which is that of a bigger, more physical CB and is pressing at the line more.


Funny how Singer and the other cats seem to have missed that over the last 2 or 3 games as they have been crying for it for as long as the Cover 2 has been here.

;D


I didn't miss it, in fact I mentioned it in a thread & even gave Griffin some kudos for that game, but alas I believe you were away shooting at deer, turkeys & quaffing "The Beast" during that spell.

I'm also aware that Griffin does get tackles on runners just as Winfield does, in fact I believe Griffin does a very good job in that aspect of the game. He also does better at man-to-man than when giving a cushion.

Yes Marr, I also noticed that a lot of passes went Winfield's way on Sunday, but my post was before that game. Still if you look at the season overall, you will find that Cedric's side has been targeted a lot more than Winfield's side has & a lot more passes given up on that side.

Look what happens when we play more man-to-man. Rather than give a nice cushion & give up short pass after short pass after short pass & allowing our opponents to keep moving the sticks, blanket that receiver & take passing to him right out of the picture.

exactly, and i dont know why it took so long for them to do more of that.
plus it will give our line more time to get pressure.
if you give the qbs quick reads with the cushions, whats the point of having a jared allen.
but the bears threw all over us last time, but this one is in our house and hopefully m.williams continues to play.
we gotta get this one, and griffin can't be letting booker catch a 5 yard curl and then run around him and the rest of the secondary for a 50 yard td.


Not trying to hack on STJ here but I believe they were a bit limited in what they could do with respect to saftey coverage because of his youth, and even though most won't admit it, Sharps lack of closing speed in his later years.

M-will adds that bit of depth back there that we seemed to lack with those two in.

By the way, I can't wait to see STJ and M-will playing together for alot of years to come.

Marrdro
11-25-2008, 10:09 AM
"singersp" wrote:


I didn't miss it, in fact I mentioned it in a thread & even gave Griffin some kudos for that game, but alas I believe you were away shooting at deer, turkeys & quaffing "The Beast" during that spell.

LOL, you do crack me up my friend.


Yes Marr, I also noticed that a lot of passes went Winfield's way on Sunday, but my post was before that game. Still if you look at the season overall, you will find that Cedric's side has been targeted a lot more than Winfield's side has & a lot more passes given up on that side.

Of course they did.
With the rationale in mind that the Vikes secondary works basically as team on each side, who would you target?
STJ/Griff or Sharp/Whinny?
One pair is a mix of crafty old vets and one pair is nothing but youth with very little experience.

Still say the coaching staff should have put Sharp over to help out Griff and left Whinny with STJ to help out.
Suprised Griff has any leggs left at all the way he was running all over the field helping out (missed by most fans).

Wish I had a nickle for every play I saw Whinny come off his man to help out with a TE or RB getting into his zone after he was cleared by the number 1 reciever the first 7 games or so.


Look what happens when we play more man-to-man. Rather than give a nice cushion & give up short pass after short pass after short pass & allowing our opponents to keep moving the sticks, blanket that receiver & take passing to him right out of the picture.

Couldn't agree more.
Problem I see now is that Whinny is giving the cushion even though Griff is up tight.
Just another example of why Leslie should be shitcanned.
;D

bleedpurple
11-25-2008, 10:13 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"ragz" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"Freya" wrote:






Cedric Griffin is 2nd on our team in tackles.
We should give him an extension.


What that says to me is that he has given up a shitload of receptions.

How many balls has he batted down? ...... gol 'darnit few

How many INT's does he have? ...... 0

Note to Childress: Get Cedric off of Special Teams! It doesn't do our team any good when he is the first defender to the ball carrier & he waves to returner as he runs by him without making an effort to tackle him. I saw it twice in the GB game alone.


Thank you. Well said.

The opposing OC's are not stupid. They play his side far more than Winfields.
He has 1 maybe 2 good tackles in a game. I mean those that help the team. But considering how much ball play he sees, that's pretty weak.

Comeon young lady.
You must not have watched the last 2 games as they targeted Whinny alot more than they have Griff.


Case in point, this week they were going to Whinny's side so much Griff actually left his man (singled up) and blitzed.
Got there late, but he got to blitz none the less.

Long story short, with the addition of M-will to help out over the top, Griff has been allowed to play a bit more to his strenght which is that of a bigger, more physical CB and is pressing at the line more.


Funny how Singer and the other cats seem to have missed that over the last 2 or 3 games as they have been crying for it for as long as the Cover 2 has been here.
;D


I didn't miss it, in fact I mentioned it in a thread & even gave Griffin some kudos for that game, but alas I believe you were away shooting at deer, turkeys & quaffing "The Beast" during that spell.

I'm also aware that Griffin does get tackles on runners just as Winfield does, in fact I believe Griffin does a very good job in that aspect of the game. He also does better at man-to-man than when giving a cushion.

Yes Marr, I also noticed that a lot of passes went Winfield's way on Sunday, but my post was before that game. Still if you look at the season overall, you will find that Cedric's side has been targeted a lot more than Winfield's side has & a lot more passes given up on that side.

Look what happens when we play more man-to-man. Rather than give a nice cushion & give up short pass after short pass after short pass & allowing our opponents to keep moving the sticks, blanket that receiver & take passing to him right out of the picture.

exactly, and i dont know why it took so long for them to do more of that.
plus it will give our line more time to get pressure.
if you give the qbs quick reads with the cushions, whats the point of having a jared allen.
but the bears threw all over us last time, but this one is in our house and hopefully m.williams continues to play.
we gotta get this one, and griffin can't be letting booker catch a 5 yard curl and then run around him and the rest of the secondary for a 50 yard td.


Not trying to hack on STJ here but I believe they were a bit limited in what they could do with respect to saftey coverage because of his youth, and even though most won't admit it, Sharps lack of closing speed in his later years.

M-will adds that bit of depth back there that we seemed to lack with those two in.

By the way, I can't wait to see STJ and M-will playing together for alot of years to come.


assuming that M.Will can keep his ass on the field.... I mean geez!!!... he's so fragile.. but you can clearly see a difference in the defense when he plays.. problem is he likes to stay hurt..

singersp
11-26-2008, 05:57 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:




Look what happens when we play more man-to-man. Rather than give a nice cushion & give up short pass after short pass after short pass & allowing our opponents to keep moving the sticks, blanket that receiver & take passing to him right out of the picture.

Couldn't agree more.
Problem I see now is that Whinny is giving the cushion even though Griff is up tight.
Just another example of why Leslie should be shitcanned.

;D


Like I have said before, Frazier is merely riding off the coattails of the defense Tomlin put together & will eventually let the defense errode.

I think you & I are the only ones that can see that.

Marrdro
11-26-2008, 06:06 AM
"singersp" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:




Look what happens when we play more man-to-man. Rather than give a nice cushion & give up short pass after short pass after short pass & allowing our opponents to keep moving the sticks, blanket that receiver & take passing to him right out of the picture.

Couldn't agree more.
Problem I see now is that Whinny is giving the cushion even though Griff is up tight.
Just another example of why Leslie should be shitcanned.

;D


Like I have said before, Frazier is merely riding off the coattails of the defense Tomlin put together & will eventually let the defense errode.

I think you & I are the only ones that can see that.

LOL, a lone voice (or two) in the darkness.....
;D

V4L
11-27-2008, 01:24 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:




Look what happens when we play more man-to-man. Rather than give a nice cushion & give up short pass after short pass after short pass & allowing our opponents to keep moving the sticks, blanket that receiver & take passing to him right out of the picture.

Couldn't agree more.
Problem I see now is that Whinny is giving the cushion even though Griff is up tight.
Just another example of why Leslie should be shitcanned.

;D


Like I have said before, Frazier is merely riding off the coattails of the defense Tomlin put together & will eventually let the defense errode.

I think you & I are the only ones that can see that.

LOL, a lone voice (or two) in the darkness.....

;D



Im with you guys too

I don't think it is as
big of a need to get rid of Frazier as it is Bevell or the special teamer

But people see that we are ranked 2nd in rushing yards and improved on passing yards and think Frazier is great

He really isn't

Yfz01
11-28-2008, 11:48 AM
This was the first game where they even targeted Winfield with any success since week 1.
I believe Winfield only gave up 47 yards on three catches.
The touchdown was on Greenway, not Winfield.