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singersp
07-28-2008, 05:33 AM
Minnesota Vikings' Antoine Winfield prefers being positioned inside in slot (http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_10016817)

Cornerback Winfield prefers being positioned on inside

By Don Seeholzer
dseeholzer@pioneerpress.com
twincities.com

Article Last Updated: 07/28/2008 12:08:25 AM CDT


MANKATO, Minn. — Defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier says the Vikings' nickel-back decision could come down to whether they believe they're better with starting cornerback Antoine Winfield playing outside or inside in the slot.....

Marrdro
07-28-2008, 07:40 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing him in the slot a bit more either.
Not only is he a good fit "Athletically" for it, but he has the experience level to be a bit more successfull in there as well over a Gordon or McCauley.

Another intersesting nugget in there was JA was learning from playing against Big Mac.
Wonder if he was being nice or if he really is.
;D

BloodyHorns82
07-28-2008, 11:22 AM
Who doesn't like being positioned inside the "slot"?
;D

C Mac D
07-28-2008, 11:24 AM
Again... because he has no coverage skills. He's a tackler... and a damn good one.

Mr all i do is catch tds
07-28-2008, 11:35 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


I wouldn't mind seeing him in the slot a bit more either.
Not only is he a good fit "Athletically" for it, but he has the experience level to be a bit more successfull in there as well over a Gordon or McCauley.

Another intersesting nugget in there was JA was learning from playing against Big Mac.
Wonder if he was being nice or if he really is.
;D


I’m sure he is learning somewhat.
I mean there are very few ELITE left tackles in the league.
A decent one is usually in the top 5.
And I would say that McKinnie is a decent left tackle.


Like Allen says.
He is a big dude.
I mean just learning to beat out his reach alone should help him.
The only thing I hope doesn’t happen is that Allen’s speed starts dialing down a little because he is soooo much faster than McKinnie.
Hopefully McKinnie can get to where he is challenging Allen on every play.


It definitely should make McKinnie better, which ifg that’s all that is happening then its fine with me.

mountainviking
07-28-2008, 12:00 PM
Seems like a fit...the smaller WRs usually play slot, and the bigger guys more often go down the sideline.
MaCauley and Griffin got 4 or 3 inches on Winny, and probably more hops too.
I still think this CB trio has a chance to be one of the NFLs best somewhere down the road...hopefully soon, with just a bit more experience and a lot more rush up front.

VikingsTw
07-28-2008, 01:06 PM
"C" wrote:


Again... because he has no coverage skills. He's a tackler... and a gol 'darnit good one.


I would argue that and consider it a major overstatement direct toward his coverage. Granted Winfield isn't Champ Bailey he's a good cover corner. I think this year is extremely exiting because for the first time in a long while our CB's should have some pass rush to work with. Being a Vikings fan the past decade I've had the opportunity to watch our corners get torched when the QB has ample time to pass the ball and regardless of who the CB's are they are gonna be unsucesful in there attempts to defend that long.

I think for the first time for exept maybe his rookie season Winfield will have a good pass rush to match what he can do, personally Winfield is one of many players I want to see quiet the coverage critics. Big season for him as long as he can stay healthy I expect him to finally get the Pro Bowl vallet that he has deserved in previous seasons.

C Mac D
07-28-2008, 01:10 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"C" wrote:


Again... because he has no coverage skills. He's a tackler... and a gol 'darnit good one.


I would argue that and consider it a major overstatement direct toward his coverage. Granted Winfield isn't Champ Bailey he's a good cover corner. I think this year is extremely exiting because for the first time in a long while our CB's should have some pass rush to work with. Being a Vikings fan the past decade I've had the opportunity to watch our corners get torched when the QB has ample time to pass the ball and regardless of who the CB's are they are gonna be unsucesful in there attempts to defend that long.

I think for the first time for exept maybe his rookie season Winfield will have a good pass rush to match what he can do, personally Winfield is one of many players I want to see quiet the coverage critics. Big season for him as long as he can stay healthy I expect him to finally get the Pro Bowl vallet that he has deserved in previous seasons.


I hope your right... however, you're stance relies on a lot of "if's"

I'm just saying, he hasn't been good in coverage for the past couple of years.

We'll see what happens.

BloodyHorns82
07-28-2008, 01:15 PM
"mountainviking" wrote:


Seems like a fit...the smaller WRs usually play slot, and the bigger guys more often go down the sideline.
MaCauley and Griffin got 4 or 3 inches on Winny, and probably more hops too.
I still think this CB trio has a chance to be one of the NFLs best somewhere down the road...hopefully soon, with just a bit more experience and a lot more rush up front.


Hopefully really soon...
Winfield isn't exactly getting any younger.
I question how much he has left in the tank.

Marrdro
07-28-2008, 01:18 PM
"BloodyHorns82" wrote:


"mountainviking" wrote:


Seems like a fit...the smaller WRs usually play slot, and the bigger guys more often go down the sideline.
MaCauley and Griffin got 4 or 3 inches on Winny, and probably more hops too.
I still think this CB trio has a chance to be one of the NFLs best somewhere down the road...hopefully soon, with just a bit more experience and a lot more rush up front.


Hopefully really soon...
Winfield isn't exactly getting any younger.
I question how much he has left in the tank.


Who cares, we will just replace him.
Remember, all players come and go.
Eventually someone replaces them and you forget about them.
;D
;D
;D

Mr Anderson
07-28-2008, 02:04 PM
Putting him on the inside also puts him closer to the action, maybe he'll break 100 tackles this season
:o

Where ever he's most comfortable, and believes he'll produce the most I say we put him there. He's a talented veteran who's shown nothing, but great play for us. I say we listen to him and play him where he believes he should played.

We're way more talented in the secondary than we're given credit for.
Griffin, McCauley, Sharper, Winfield, Williams, and Johnson are all ridiculous athletes.

I believe McCauley will break the learning curve this year and really standout.

If Griffin can remain focused and not get lazy on some coverages and tackles he'll be pretty damn good, however, I think that is the responsibility of coaching and on field leadership.

Madieu Williams shouldn't have any problem adapting to the cover 2, it's really quite simple for the safeties.

And Tyrell Johnson has all the ability in the world, we have a potential All-Pro safety in this kid, hopefully he develops into an awesome player. And there's no reason he should not.


Look at what the Ravens have made out of their defensive draft picks. Good athletes come into a great defense with strong leadership and coaching and come out all-pro.

I've mentioned leadership a few times, and with the acquisition of Jared Allen I believe our defensive leadership will be very strong. That defensive line not only has 3 of our best players on it, but 3 of the best players in the NFL. Even if none of them are big time vocal leaders, there is no better unit to lead-by-example.


So with all of our talent and leadership we should be looking at some tremendous depth in the secondary as well as defensive line. The only area of concern, in terms of depth, that I have is in the linebackers.

VikingsTw
07-28-2008, 02:06 PM
"C" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"C" wrote:


Again... because he has no coverage skills. He's a tackler... and a gol 'darnit good one.


I would argue that and consider it a major overstatement direct toward his coverage. Granted Winfield isn't Champ Bailey he's a good cover corner. I think this year is extremely exiting because for the first time in a long while our CB's should have some pass rush to work with. Being a Vikings fan the past decade I've had the opportunity to watch our corners get torched when the QB has ample time to pass the ball and regardless of who the CB's are they are gonna be unsucesful in there attempts to defend that long.

I think for the first time for exept maybe his rookie season Winfield will have a good pass rush to match what he can do, personally Winfield is one of many players I want to see quiet the coverage critics. Big season for him as long as he can stay healthy I expect him to finally get the Pro Bowl vallet that he has deserved in previous seasons.


I hope your right... however, you're stance relies on a lot of "if's"

I'm just saying, he hasn't been good in coverage for the past couple of years.

We'll see what happens.


I thank I am and your right we'll see. There are some "if's" involved but when it comes to Jared Allen getting to the QB along with the rest of DLine, I think those if's disapear and exactly what the rest of defense needs.

I can invision Wifield on a team thats gets great pressure in a cover two where he is aloud to play the game in front of him. I think he gets more INT's and possibly a couple TD's.

Pass rush effectd all the guys in the secondary and the LB's. This means opening up opportunities not only for Winfield but everyone thats off the line of scrimage.

i_bleed_purple
07-28-2008, 02:12 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"C" wrote:


Again... because he has no coverage skills. He's a tackler... and a gol 'darnit good one.


I would argue that and consider it a major overstatement direct toward his coverage. Granted Winfield isn't Champ Bailey he's a good cover corner. I think this year is extremely exiting because for the first time in a long while our CB's should have some pass rush to work with. Being a Vikings fan the past decade I've had the opportunity to watch our corners get torched when the QB has ample time to pass the ball and regardless of who the CB's are they are gonna be unsucesful in there attempts to defend that long.

I think for the first time for exept maybe his rookie season Winfield will have a good pass rush to match what he can do, personally Winfield is one of many players I want to see quiet the coverage critics. Big season for him as long as he can stay healthy I expect him to finally get the Pro Bowl vallet that he has deserved in previous seasons.


I still remember the bears game where he fell down and let up a TD to either Muhammid or Berrian.


Anyway, Winfield may be good in the slot, maybe not.
He is not a good enough in pass coverage to stick with guys like Welker.
On the outside, all he has to do is bump the reciever, then cover the flat, which he is pretty good at.
But really, the thing I don't like about it is having McCauley on the outside.
I don't want to hear about how some of you think he might possibly have a chance at being good when is 85 degrees out and the sun isn't in his eyes, and has Chad Pennington throwing it deep to his reciever.
He is not good enough yet, and probably won't be this year right away either.
For now, i'd rather keep the proven guy on the outside, and let the inexperienced guys play in the slot, where there's more help from the LB's/S's.

V-Unit
07-28-2008, 02:19 PM
We have a corner to loves to blitz and tackle running backs! He doesn't fit the scheme at all! He is old! Release him!

Griffin and McCauley are much better in coverage! They are young! That makes Winfield very replacable!

C Mac D
07-28-2008, 02:22 PM
"V" wrote:


We have a corner to loves to blitz and tackle running backs! He doesn't fit the scheme at all! He is old! Release him!

Griffin and McCauley are much better in coverage! They are young! That makes Winfield very replacable!


I realize you're being sarcastic... I think....

But you certainly did express my thoughts in your first sentence. We can use him more for blitzing and tackling, like almost a CB/Safety position...

I don't know... I'm an idiot.

i_bleed_purple
07-28-2008, 02:32 PM
"C" wrote:


"V" wrote:


We have a corner to loves to blitz and tackle running backs! He doesn't fit the scheme at all! He is old! Release him!

Griffin and McCauley are much better in coverage! They are young! That makes Winfield very replacable!


I realize you're being sarcastic... I think....

But you certainly did express my thoughts in your first sentence. We can use him more for blitzing and tackling, like almost a CB/Safety position...

I don't know... I'm an idiot.



and it finally comes out..... just kiddin...

but, iMO, winfield is a much better cover corner than a) some give him credit for, and b) McCauley.
Sure McCauley may have better speed and he might possibly have a chance at being a better cover corner when is 85 degrees out and the sun isn't in his eyes, and has Chad Pennington throwing it deep to his reciever than Winfield, but now, he isn't.

Overlord
07-28-2008, 03:47 PM
Just wanted to put some stats to what people are voicing here.
Basically, Winfield is a good (but not great) cover corner and elite when it comes to stopping the run.
I'm getting my stats from the book 'Pro Football Prospectus,' so I can't post a link.

With respect to the running game, opposing teams averaged 2.6 yards on running plays when Winfield made the tackle.
That was second among all NFL corners and compares very favorably to Griffin (5.9 yards) and McCauley (10.5 yards).
They show stats for stops as well, which refer to preventing big gains on first or second down or giving up first downs on third or fourth down.
Winfield's tackles in the running game were stops 84% of the time, which was also second among NFL corners.

In the passing game, Winfield came up with stops on 52% of the balls thrown towards him.
That ranked 30th among corners.
The best corners were around 60% in that category, while Griffin (39%) and McCauley (41%) were not so good.
Winfield gave up an average of 6.2 yards on pass plays targeted toward him, which ranked 16th among corners.
Griffin (9.7) and McCauley (8.5) also struggled here.

Based on these statistics, it looks like Winfield is a solid #1 corner in the passing game, but he's certainly not at a Pro Bowl level.
He's as good as anybody at the position against the run, as we all pretty much knew.
It's our second corner spot that is really weak, because neither Griffin nor McCauley have performed at the level of an average starting corner back.

Hopefully that improves this year.

Potus2028
07-28-2008, 04:16 PM
"C" wrote:


"V" wrote:


We have a corner to loves to blitz and tackle running backs! He doesn't fit the scheme at all! He is old! Release him!

Griffin and McCauley are much better in coverage! They are young! That makes Winfield very replacable!


I realize you're being sarcastic... I think....

But you certainly did express my thoughts in your first sentence. We can use him more for blitzing and tackling, like almost a CB/Safety position...

I don't know... I'm an idiot.


But if you think about it.. Are there any CB's that don't like to Blitz? Most secondary players would love a chance to get back at the QB or Run Blitz (see John Lynch).

So does that make him different that any other veteran player in the secondary?

Potus2028
07-28-2008, 04:21 PM
"Overlord" wrote:


Just wanted to put some stats to what people are voicing here.
Basically, Winfield is a good (but not great) cover corner and elite when it comes to stopping the run.
I'm getting my stats from the book 'Pro Football Prospectus,' so I can't post a link.

With respect to the running game, opposing teams averaged 2.6 yards on running plays when Winfield made the tackle.
That was second among all NFL corners and compares very favorably to Griffin (5.9 yards) and McCauley (10.5 yards).
They show stats for stops as well, which refer to preventing big gains on first or second down or giving up first downs on third or fourth down.
Winfield's tackles in the running game were stops 84% of the time, which was also second among NFL corners.

In the passing game, Winfield came up with stops on 52% of the balls thrown towards him.
That ranked 30th among corners.
The best corners were around 60% in that category, while Griffin (39%) and McCauley (41%) were not so good.
Winfield gave up an average of 6.2 yards on pass plays targeted toward him, which ranked 16th among corners.
Griffin (9.7) and McCauley (8.5) also struggled here.

Based on these statistics, it looks like Winfield is a solid #1 corner in the passing game, but he's certainly not at a Pro Bowl level.
He's as good as anybody at the position against the run, as we all pretty much knew.
It's our second corner spot that is really weak, because neither Griffin nor McCauley have performed at the level of an average starting corner back.

Hopefully that improves this year.


I couldn't agree more with you.

We can't lie and say he's a shutdown corner, because the stats just showed that he isn't. But we can't throw him under the bus, because the stat's say he's better than McCauley and Griffin.

All in all, I'd have to say he in a serviceable player who can groom McCauley and Griffin into legitimate 1 and 2 CB's for the next few years.

C Mac D
07-28-2008, 04:27 PM
"Potus2028" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"V" wrote:


We have a corner to loves to blitz and tackle running backs! He doesn't fit the scheme at all! He is old! Release him!

Griffin and McCauley are much better in coverage! They are young! That makes Winfield very replacable!


I realize you're being sarcastic... I think....

But you certainly did express my thoughts in your first sentence. We can use him more for blitzing and tackling, like almost a CB/Safety position...

I don't know... I'm an idiot.


But if you think about it.. Are there any CB's that don't like to Blitz? Most secondary players would love a chance to get back at the QB or Run Blitz (see John Lynch).

So does that make him different that any other veteran player in the secondary?


I must be a little confused... of course everyone WANTS to get to the QB, but they have to fit a certain role in our defensive scheme.

I don't care what he WANTS to do, I'm saying that because his strengths are his hits and his tackles, and his weakness is his coverage, let's put him in the slot and keep the offense guessing the whole game.

midgensa
07-28-2008, 04:41 PM
This really makes sense when you think about it. As stated by some others, Winfield is as good a tackling corner as there is in the NFL, so you can run those short slot routes and he will take them down before much of a gain if any. Also, it is tougher to burn the slot-corner on a deep route than it is the outside corner, and we all know that Winfield has a little trouble with downfield-coverage.
He also would be very effective in the run-blitz or a straight pass-rush spot from the slot-corner. Not a bad spot if McCauley, Griffen and/or Gordon can hold up their ends of the bargain.

V-Unit
07-28-2008, 04:45 PM
"C" wrote:


"Potus2028" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"V" wrote:


We have a corner to loves to blitz and tackle running backs! He doesn't fit the scheme at all! He is old! Release him!

Griffin and McCauley are much better in coverage! They are young! That makes Winfield very replacable!


I realize you're being sarcastic... I think....

But you certainly did express my thoughts in your first sentence. We can use him more for blitzing and tackling, like almost a CB/Safety position...

I don't know... I'm an idiot.


But if you think about it.. Are there any CB's that don't like to Blitz? Most secondary players would love a chance to get back at the QB or Run Blitz (see John Lynch).

So does that make him different that any other veteran player in the secondary?


I must be a little confused... of course everyone WANTS to get to the QB, but they have to fit a certain role in our defensive scheme.

I don't care what he WANTS to do, I'm saying that because his strengths are his hits and his tackles, and his weakness is his coverage, let's put him in the slot and keep the offense guessing the whole game.


The only problem with that theory is that Winfield is also our best coverage CB. I trust him against a primary receiver more than I do any other CB on the team. I think he is very solid in coverage in general, but that's a different argument.

We already have a DL and LBs who can shutdown the run game, and hopefully get to the QB as well with the addition of Allen. Put our best DB on the outside, let him cover primary receivers, and shutdown runs to the outside. That seems obvious to me.

Potus2028
07-28-2008, 05:26 PM
"V" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"Potus2028" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"V" wrote:


We have a corner to loves to blitz and tackle running backs! He doesn't fit the scheme at all! He is old! Release him!

Griffin and McCauley are much better in coverage! They are young! That makes Winfield very replacable!


I realize you're being sarcastic... I think....

But you certainly did express my thoughts in your first sentence. We can use him more for blitzing and tackling, like almost a CB/Safety position...

I don't know... I'm an idiot.


But if you think about it.. Are there any CB's that don't like to Blitz? Most secondary players would love a chance to get back at the QB or Run Blitz (see John Lynch).

So does that make him different that any other veteran player in the secondary?


I must be a little confused... of course everyone WANTS to get to the QB, but they have to fit a certain role in our defensive scheme.

I don't care what he WANTS to do, I'm saying that because his strengths are his hits and his tackles, and his weakness is his coverage, let's put him in the slot and keep the offense guessing the whole game.


The only problem with that theory is that Winfield is also our best coverage CB. I trust him against a primary receiver more than I do any other CB on the team. I think he is very solid in coverage in general, but that's a different argument.

We already have a DL and LBs who can shutdown the run game, and hopefully get to the QB as well with the addition of Allen. Put our best DB on the outside, let him cover primary receivers, and shutdown runs to the outside. That seems obvious to me.


I think there is a safe compromise here:

Can't he be jack of all traits? Put him in certain places in certain situations? Instead of reserving him specifically...

I think we can play him all over the field... I like this idea now more guys. Why don't we put Winfield in the slot?

VikingsTw
07-28-2008, 06:31 PM
"Overlord" wrote:


Just wanted to put some stats to what people are voicing here.
Basically, Winfield is a good (but not great) cover corner and elite when it comes to stopping the run.
I'm getting my stats from the book 'Pro Football Prospectus,' so I can't post a link.

With respect to the running game, opposing teams averaged 2.6 yards on running plays when Winfield made the tackle.
That was second among all NFL corners and compares very favorably to Griffin (5.9 yards) and McCauley (10.5 yards).
They show stats for stops as well, which refer to preventing big gains on first or second down or giving up first downs on third or fourth down.
Winfield's tackles in the running game were stops 84% of the time, which was also second among NFL corners.

In the passing game, Winfield came up with stops on 52% of the balls thrown towards him.
That ranked 30th among corners.
The best corners were around 60% in that category, while Griffin (39%) and McCauley (41%) were not so good.
Winfield gave up an average of 6.2 yards on pass plays targeted toward him, which ranked 16th among corners.
Griffin (9.7) and McCauley (8.5) also struggled here.

Based on these statistics, it looks like Winfield is a solid #1 corner in the passing game, but he's certainly not at a Pro Bowl level.
He's as good as anybody at the position against the run, as we all pretty much knew.
It's our second corner spot that is really weak, because neither Griffin nor McCauley have performed at the level of an average starting corner back.

Hopefully that improves this year.


I like the post and I think those numbers can be driven closer to zero with more pass rush provided by our front four, this could possibly put winfield higher in terms of those rankings.

VikingsTw
07-28-2008, 06:35 PM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"C" wrote:


Again... because he has no coverage skills. He's a tackler... and a gol 'darnit good one.


I would argue that and consider it a major overstatement direct toward his coverage. Granted Winfield isn't Champ Bailey he's a good cover corner. I think this year is extremely exiting because for the first time in a long while our CB's should have some pass rush to work with. Being a Vikings fan the past decade I've had the opportunity to watch our corners get torched when the QB has ample time to pass the ball and regardless of who the CB's are they are gonna be unsucesful in there attempts to defend that long.

I think for the first time for exept maybe his rookie season Winfield will have a good pass rush to match what he can do, personally Winfield is one of many players I want to see quiet the coverage critics. Big season for him as long as he can stay healthy I expect him to finally get the Pro Bowl vallet that he has deserved in previous seasons.


I still remember the bears game where he fell down and let up a TD to either Muhammid or Berrian.


Anyway, Winfield may be good in the slot, maybe not.
He is not a good enough in pass coverage to stick with guys like Welker.
On the outside, all he has to do is bump the reciever, then cover the flat, which he is pretty good at.
But really, the thing I don't like about it is having McCauley on the outside.
I don't want to hear about how some of you think he might possibly have a chance at being good when is 85 degrees out and the sun isn't in his eyes, and has Chad Pennington throwing it deep to his reciever.
He is not good enough yet, and probably won't be this year right away either.
For now, i'd rather keep the proven guy on the outside, and let the inexperienced guys play in the slot, where there's more help from the LB's/S's.



I still remeber when Bernard Berrian beat Champ Bailey in a huge victory to catapolt them into the postseason.

Berrian is tuff matchup for Winfield because he has such elite speed or for any corner. Winfield had an off season last year but still its rare to see him give up scores and when he does its so close. I would have to consider the Berrian TD the most blown play by Winfield in his few years here.

Winfield is good at any CB position, but like he said being in the slot gives him more an opportunity to make plays and thats what he's always done.

By the way for those of you discussing McCauley should be discussing Gordon as he is the #3 while McCauley is the #4.

Mr all i do is catch tds
07-28-2008, 06:44 PM
Also, the way our ball-hawking safety works.
Winfield in the slot would give Sharper more opportunities for picks.


Why you ask.
Winfield gives you a lot more versatility in the slot defender spot.
It’s like having an extra safety in there the way he hits.
He can help with run-support if needed.
He can also get to the QB very quickly while also laying the wood.
And he can drop back into coverage.
So, the QB would always have to be checking off on him to make a decision.
Thus giving the defenders more time to get to the QB and worst passes that can be more easily picked.


Gordon is definitely a good enough athlete to jump out there and cover a wideout.

DaunteHOF
07-28-2008, 07:17 PM
winny is the best blitzing corner in the league, play him slot

delviking
07-28-2008, 07:50 PM
another thing is on third down most QB's look to there slot guys to get the ball out quickly to and with the pressure that our front four is gonna produce this year, the opposing QB's are gonna want to get rid of it as quickly as possible.

With Winny in the slot on those types of plays it give us a guy who doesnt have great long speed but has a quick burst and solid tackling ability to cover that slot guy who usually are slower but bigger WRs to contend with LBs on the play.

Winny can take those guys he has done it for years for us why change that now you but gordon or Mccauley or sapp whoever wins the nickel corner spot on the outside should be able to hold there own for the time that our D line is giving there QB.

and just to mess with the heads of the O coordinator you can even sneak in Griff on a few plays where you want Winny playing a zone on the outside. cause yes Griff has shown some lack of focus but it will be just another look to give the opposing O. and Griff is a pretty decent tackler also.

Overlord
07-28-2008, 07:58 PM
"DaunteHOF" wrote:


winny is the best blitzing corner in the league, play him slot


Hard to believe that when he has one career sack.
He's great close to the line playing the run, but I don't think he has a resume as a blitzing corner.

Anyway, thinking about this more I find that I agree with V's comment for the most part.
The trade-off is do you want your best corner on their best receivers or where there is going to be the most action (both against the run and since a lot of passes are thrown over the middle).
I would hope that Tyrell Johnson is as good as the team hoped when we drafted him so that we could keep Winfield outside and still be tough and athletic inside.

cajunvike
07-28-2008, 08:07 PM
Winfield just makes plays...like Sharper does.
End of story.

mark
07-28-2008, 09:10 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"C" wrote:


Again... because he has no coverage skills. He's a tackler... and a gol 'darnit good one.


I would argue that and consider it a major overstatement direct toward his coverage. Granted Winfield isn't Champ Bailey he's a good cover corner. I think this year is extremely exiting because for the first time in a long while our CB's should have some pass rush to work with. Being a Vikings fan the past decade I've had the opportunity to watch our corners get torched when the QB has ample time to pass the ball and regardless of who the CB's are they are gonna be unsucesful in there attempts to defend that long.

I think for the first time for exept maybe his rookie season Winfield will have a good pass rush to match what he can do, personally Winfield is one of many players I want to see quiet the coverage critics. Big season for him as long as he can stay healthy I expect him to finally get the Pro Bowl vallet that he has deserved in previous seasons.


Cou;dnt agree more. With allen im guessing that Winfield will make the pro bowl this year.He will put himself in the eliete( cant spell) class this year

V-Unit
07-28-2008, 10:43 PM
"Potus2028" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"Potus2028" wrote:


"C" wrote:




We have a corner to loves to blitz and tackle running backs! He doesn't fit the scheme at all! He is old! Release him!

Griffin and McCauley are much better in coverage! They are young! That makes Winfield very replacable!


I realize you're being sarcastic... I think....

But you certainly did express my thoughts in your first sentence. We can use him more for blitzing and tackling, like almost a CB/Safety position...

I don't know... I'm an idiot.


But if you think about it.. Are there any CB's that don't like to Blitz? Most secondary players would love a chance to get back at the QB or Run Blitz (see John Lynch).

So does that make him different that any other veteran player in the secondary?


I must be a little confused... of course everyone WANTS to get to the QB, but they have to fit a certain role in our defensive scheme.

I don't care what he WANTS to do, I'm saying that because his strengths are his hits and his tackles, and his weakness is his coverage, let's put him in the slot and keep the offense guessing the whole game.


The only problem with that theory is that Winfield is also our best coverage CB. I trust him against a primary receiver more than I do any other CB on the team. I think he is very solid in coverage in general, but that's a different argument.

We already have a DL and LBs who can shutdown the run game, and hopefully get to the QB as well with the addition of Allen. Put our best DB on the outside, let him cover primary receivers, and shutdown runs to the outside. That seems obvious to me.


I think there is a safe compromise here:

Can't he be jack of all traits? Put him in certain places in certain situations? Instead of reserving him specifically...

I think we can play him all over the field... I like this idea now more guys. Why don't we put Winfield in the slot?


Yeah, I guess I am questioning Griffin's and MacCauley's play more than Winfield here. Overall I was very pleased with the defense last year, so maybe its best to just keep on doing what we've been doing strategy-wise (Winfield played the slot a lot last year) and let the added talent of Allen and Williams make the difference.

Speaking of Williams, I pretty sure he is an upgrade but I definitely view him as the biggest unknown on our defense.

singersp
07-29-2008, 05:24 AM
"midgensa" wrote:


This really makes sense when you think about it. As stated by some others, Winfield is as good a tackling corner as there is in the NFL, so you can run those short slot routes and he will take them down before much of a gain if any. Also, it is tougher to burn the slot-corner on a deep route than it is the outside corner, and we all know that Winfield has a little trouble with downfield-coverage.
He also would be very effective in the run-blitz or a straight pass-rush spot from the slot-corner. Not a bad spot if McCauley, Griffen and/or Gordon can hold up their ends of the bargain.


And there in lies the problem with Winfield & our other DB's. Sure, they keep the receivers from getting the YAC a lot, & Winnie will tackle them on the spot, but they also allow them to catch it in the first place.

People claim "Big Deal", they only got 5-6 yards out of the play, but exactly how many of those does it take to move the chains? Last time I checked, it was 2.

Teams have been absolutely killing us with those types of plays for years & we let them march down the field slowly but surely. I see that happening even more with Allen on the team. The balls will come out quick & for short yardage, but if we still allow them to catch it, they are going to move the chains.

It's exactly what we try to do to other teams with our WCO.

If our defense continually allows 5-6 yard passes to be caught, teams are going to take advantage of it. If a defense allows a RB to get 5-6 YPC, those teams are going to run the ball.

Give me DB's who can bat the ball away for an incompletion & then we have something.


With the addition of Allen this year, I see teams using the quick slant on us a lot more this year. When's the last time Allen got a sack on a quick slant?

Where I see him having an impact on those plays is the coverage he will draw. Hopefully it allows our inside guys to get in the face of the QB sooner.

We were worst in the league for yards given up last year. 4,225 yards given up. Of the 646 catches we gave up, only 46 of them were for 20+ yards & 6 of them for 40+.

That means 594 of them were short passes where we allowed our opponents to catch the ball w/o much YAC. 170 of them were for first downs.

The yards add up quickly don't they?

V-Unit
07-29-2008, 09:28 AM
"singersp" wrote:


"midgensa" wrote:


This really makes sense when you think about it. As stated by some others, Winfield is as good a tackling corner as there is in the NFL, so you can run those short slot routes and he will take them down before much of a gain if any. Also, it is tougher to burn the slot-corner on a deep route than it is the outside corner, and we all know that Winfield has a little trouble with downfield-coverage.
He also would be very effective in the run-blitz or a straight pass-rush spot from the slot-corner. Not a bad spot if McCauley, Griffen and/or Gordon can hold up their ends of the bargain.


And there in lies the problem with Winfield & our other DB's. Sure, they keep the receivers from getting the YAC a lot, & Winnie will tackle them on the spot, but they also allow them to catch it in the first place.

People claim "Big Deal", they only got 5-6 yards out of the play, but exactly how many of those does it take to move the chains? Last time I checked, it was 2.

Teams have been absolutely killing us with those types of plays for years & we let them march down the field slowly but surely. I see that happening even more with Allen on the team. The balls will come out quick & for short yardage, but if we still allow them to catch it, they are going to move the chains.

It's exactly what we try to do to other teams with our WCO.

If our defense continually allows 5-6 yard passes to be caught, teams are going to take advantage of it. If a defense allows a RB to get 5-6 YPC, those teams are going to run the ball.

Give me DB's who can bat the ball away for an incompletion & then we have something.


With the addition of Allen this year, I see teams using the quick slant on us a lot more this year. When's the last time Allen got a sack on a quick slant?

Where I see him having an impact on those plays is the coverage he will draw. Hopefully it allows our inside guys to get in the face of the QB sooner.

We were worst in the league for yards given up last year. 4,225 yards given up. Of the 646 catches we gave up, only 46 of them were for 20+ yards & 6 of them for 40+.

That means 594 of them were short passes where we allowed our opponents to catch the ball w/o much YAC. 170 of them were for first downs.

The yards add up quickly don't they?


I think you need to differentiate between a catch under 10 yards and above 10. That stat does not do that. On catches above 10 yards, Allen should still be able to get to the QB on occasion for a sack or hurry. That disrupts timing, makes a more inaccurate pass, and makes it easier to break up. On catches under 10 yards, its very hard to dink and dunk a team when you can't run the ball. Sooner or later there will be an incompletion and the drive will stall.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of scoring drives against our defense. I remember a lot more short fields and quick strikes than a I do long, methodical drives.

Our "anemic" offense last year scored 11 more TDs than our opponents.

mountainviking
07-29-2008, 12:47 PM
Interesting stats there overlord.
does that book get released every year?
Cool stuff for numbers guys!

So...even the best CBs get beat 40% of the time?
Surely there's a few above that...Champ? Asohmuga?
Anyway, Wow.
Kind of proves that whole give them too much time/too many opps, and eventually everybody gets beat.

Gordon looked good late last year, but I thought MacCauley made some nice plays too and Griffin was also, kind of hot, or not.
The thing is, all these guys are still so young.
Gordon and Griff are entering their third years and MacC is only going on 2.
I'm expecting big improvements from these guys, and in general, more consistency, as they start recognizing certain moves and routes etc before they happen.
Then, as pointed out, increased pass rush/attention upfront is going to help the entire secondary tremendously!
I guess its a bit of an assumption that they will continue to improve with experience, but I could see, eventually, their physical abilities matching up better on the outside WRs, and, I have to agree, that Winfield would be one hell of a Nickel!

True, the cover2 is kind of a bend but don't break mentality, and our rush D forces more focus toward the bending...but don't we often run a sort of man CB coverage within our zone D?
And, yeah, I can see Allen actually pushing opponents to more quick outs like slants, but doesn't that also tell us where the enemy is going to go?
We should start seeing some nice INTs and PBUs from our LBs and S as we start minimizing just what they can do to us.

I really like the idea of using Tyrell in some "Big Nickel" (third down) defense too.
Depending on how they line up (ex. 2 TE; say 5-9 yds needed), you could have him in almost a MLB role, with the other 2 S back, or (3WR or more; 10+ yds needed) move Madieu up into coverage-maybe even 3 guys playing man-with Sharper back as the lone, "ball hawking" S, the LBs playing just back and outside the DL in the outside short to mid zones, and Tyrell rocketing to wherever the action is from mid field-closer than a S, but perhaps a bit back from the MLB spot.
If there's a 4th WR, Tyrell points at him, moves up a bit and with a smile says something like, "Lights out brother, Lights out."
Just try and slant on that
;D

Hell, I know Winny's not the biggest, but the way he tackles, he could probably be the "Big Nickel" too.

singersp
07-29-2008, 08:51 PM
"V" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"midgensa" wrote:


This really makes sense when you think about it. As stated by some others, Winfield is as good a tackling corner as there is in the NFL, so you can run those short slot routes and he will take them down before much of a gain if any. Also, it is tougher to burn the slot-corner on a deep route than it is the outside corner, and we all know that Winfield has a little trouble with downfield-coverage.
He also would be very effective in the run-blitz or a straight pass-rush spot from the slot-corner. Not a bad spot if McCauley, Griffen and/or Gordon can hold up their ends of the bargain.


And there in lies the problem with Winfield & our other DB's. Sure, they keep the receivers from getting the YAC a lot, & Winnie will tackle them on the spot, but they also allow them to catch it in the first place.

People claim "Big Deal", they only got 5-6 yards out of the play, but exactly how many of those does it take to move the chains? Last time I checked, it was 2.

Teams have been absolutely killing us with those types of plays for years & we let them march down the field slowly but surely. I see that happening even more with Allen on the team. The balls will come out quick & for short yardage, but if we still allow them to catch it, they are going to move the chains.

It's exactly what we try to do to other teams with our WCO.

If our defense continually allows 5-6 yard passes to be caught, teams are going to take advantage of it. If a defense allows a RB to get 5-6 YPC, those teams are going to run the ball.

Give me DB's who can bat the ball away for an incompletion & then we have something.


With the addition of Allen this year, I see teams using the quick slant on us a lot more this year. When's the last time Allen got a sack on a quick slant?

Where I see him having an impact on those plays is the coverage he will draw. Hopefully it allows our inside guys to get in the face of the QB sooner.

We were worst in the league for yards given up last year. 4,225 yards given up. Of the 646 catches we gave up, only 46 of them were for 20+ yards & 6 of them for 40+.

That means 594 of them were short passes where we allowed our opponents to catch the ball w/o much YAC. 170 of them were for first downs.

The yards add up quickly don't they?


I think you need to differentiate between a catch under 10 yards and above 10. That stat does not do that. On catches above 10 yards, Allen should still be able to get to the QB on occasion for a sack or hurry. That disrupts timing, makes a more inaccurate pass, and makes it easier to break up. On catches under 10 yards, its very hard to dink and dunk a team when you can't run the ball. Sooner or later there will be an incompletion and the drive will stall.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of scoring drives against our defense. I remember a lot more short fields and quick strikes than a I do long, methodical drives.

Our "anemic" offense last year scored 11 more TDs than our opponents.


I don't, NFL.com does. I wish it did break that down as well. Keep in mind also that even if they broke it down, those stats include YAC & a 5 yard catch still could end up being a 10-20 yard gain.

singersp
07-29-2008, 08:59 PM
"Overlord" wrote:


In the passing game, Winfield came up with stops on 52% of the balls thrown towards him.
That ranked 30th among corners.
The best corners were around 60% in that category, while Griffin (39%) and McCauley (41%) were not so good.
Winfield gave up an average of 6.2 yards on pass plays targeted toward him, which ranked 16th among corners.
Griffin (9.7) and McCauley (8.5) also struggled here.

Based on these statistics, it looks like Winfield is a solid #1 corner in the passing game, but he's certainly not at a Pro Bowl level.
He's as good as anybody at the position against the run, as we all pretty much knew.
It's our second corner spot that is really weak, because neither Griffin nor McCauley have performed at the level of an average starting corner back.

Hopefully that improves this year.


Yet many people here still suck the taint sweat out of Griffins jock.

Quite frankly, I don't see it. Especially when you are averaging almost giving up a first down on every catch (9.7 yards)

VikingsTw
07-29-2008, 11:21 PM
"singersp" wrote:


"Overlord" wrote:


In the passing game, Winfield came up with stops on 52% of the balls thrown towards him.
That ranked 30th among corners.
The best corners were around 60% in that category, while Griffin (39%) and McCauley (41%) were not so good.
Winfield gave up an average of 6.2 yards on pass plays targeted toward him, which ranked 16th among corners.
Griffin (9.7) and McCauley (8.5) also struggled here.

Based on these statistics, it looks like Winfield is a solid #1 corner in the passing game, but he's certainly not at a Pro Bowl level.
He's as good as anybody at the position against the run, as we all pretty much knew.
It's our second corner spot that is really weak, because neither Griffin nor McCauley have performed at the level of an average starting corner back.

Hopefully that improves this year.


Yet many people here still suck the taint sweat out of Griffins jock.

Quite frankly, I don't see it. Especially when you are averaging almost giving up a first down on every catch (9.7 yards)


I think anytime your talking about a second year player like Griffin its a good idea to give it some development. I've liked what I've seen from Griffin in the past in terms of being a young guy and showing capable.

Starting CB is one of the hardest positions in the league, like Griffin we have several players entering that 3rd season, so far the news is Tarvaris and Griffin are both looking like playmakers.

One of most exiting things about Griffin is hearing that he's able to finish plays lately, actually getting to ball when it was so close last season. Griffin is just beginning his carear and I think too many have expected too much at such a young age. From my prospective he's shown that he's one of most physical CB's in the NFL and a mechanically sound tackler, its good that he's added some bulk and I believe he has the drive to become great at his position. In the end I think its all experience and passion, if Griffin isn't able to finish plays and has trouble on defense then we have issue. Untill then I think he's done just fine in his two short years as a Pro.

Reports out are claiming Griffin is looking very sharp in camp alot of what I had expected out of several 3rd year candadites.

Overlord
07-30-2008, 05:44 AM
"mountainviking" wrote:


Interesting stats there overlord.
does that book get released every year?
Cool stuff for numbers guys!

I think it's been published for about the past seven years or so.
Someone on this site mentioned it, which is how I got around to picking it up.
Apparently a lot of people use it for fantasy football stuff, but it just has very good statistical analysis in general.
Anyway, if you wanted to pick up a copy it's 'Pro Football Prospectus 2008.'
It's something like $15 on Amazon and the author is Schatz.



So...even the best CBs get beat 40% of the time?
Surely there's a few above that...Champ? Asohmuga?
Anyway, Wow.
Kind of proves that whole give them too much time/too many opps, and eventually everybody gets beat.


Bailey was #7 in this particular statistical category among cornerbacks.
Here are the top 5:

5) Randall Gay, Patriots - 59% success rate - targeted 47 times
4) Richard Marshall, Panthers - 60% success rate - targeted 71 times
3) Nnamadi Asomugha, Raiders - 61% success rate - targeted 38 times
2) Fred Bennett, Texans - 61% success rate - targeted 62 times
1) Shawn Springs, Redskins - 62% success rate - targeted 94 times

So yes, even the best corners get beat from time to time.
But keep in mind two things.
First, a cornerback may get 'beat' according to this statistic without giving up a huge play.
A first down will be considered a loss for the corner in this stat.
Second, the stat only counts their success against passes thrown their way.
Asomugha only had 38 passes directed towards his man this year, which means that he probably had pretty good coverage on most of the other 400 or so passes he was out there for.
The quarterback tends to throw it towards the corner when he does not have his man locked down.

In other words, I think this is a useful stat, but hardly the be all, end all.

"VikingsTw" wrote:


I think anytime your talking about a second year player like Griffin its a good idea to give it some development. I've liked what I've seen from Griffin in the past in terms of being a young guy and showing capable.

Starting CB is one of the hardest positions in the league, like Griffin we have several players entering that 3rd season, so far the news is Tarvaris and Griffin are both looking like playmakers.


I agree.
I used to think that it was maybe the toughest position to adjust to, but the college passing game is catching up a bit to the pros.
You see a few more young guys come out and play really well these days.
But for later picks - such as Griffin - it's still safe to assume they're going to need time.

Also, I went back and checked the 2007 version of the same book to compare stats.
Interestingly enough, Griffin's numbers were much better - a 58% success rate on 61 targets.
That put him at 14th in league among corners.
Winfield was also slightly better in 2007 in this stat.

I think some of the drop off may be a result of having to cover better receivers since he moved from a nickle/2nd corner spot on the depth chart to the 2nd corner and 1st corner when Winfield was out.
He also got targeted a lot and abused early in the season if my memory is correct.
But hopefully last year was just a fluke and he'll be a solid starter for us in 2008.

mountainviking
07-30-2008, 12:21 PM
Thanks for the info!!!
Cheers!!

Yeah, we've got a young team, and we should start seeing some big improvements from the 3rd year guys especially, but the 2nd and 4th year guys too...10 guys on the roster are going into their 3rd year...7 guys going into year 2...and 4 guys going into year 4.
21/80 is over a fouth of our team with less than 4 years experience.

Furthermore, we've got 12 guys going on year 5!!
I think years 4 and 5 are where players are really starting to define themselves...they've got enough experience for the game to have "slowed down," and can now play at a faster, more reactionary speed while still being in the physical primes of their football careers!

Just another reason to be stoked for this year's MN VIKINGS!!!!!
(And, the near future too!)
SKOL!!!!!

Marrdro
07-30-2008, 12:41 PM
"singersp" wrote:


"midgensa" wrote:


This really makes sense when you think about it. As stated by some others, Winfield is as good a tackling corner as there is in the NFL, so you can run those short slot routes and he will take them down before much of a gain if any. Also, it is tougher to burn the slot-corner on a deep route than it is the outside corner, and we all know that Winfield has a little trouble with downfield-coverage.
He also would be very effective in the run-blitz or a straight pass-rush spot from the slot-corner. Not a bad spot if McCauley, Griffen and/or Gordon can hold up their ends of the bargain.


And there in lies the problem with Winfield & our other DB's. Sure, they keep the receivers from getting the YAC a lot, & Winnie will tackle them on the spot, but they also allow them to catch it in the first place.

People claim "Big Deal", they only got 5-6 yards out of the play, but exactly how many of those does it take to move the chains? Last time I checked, it was 2.

Teams have been absolutely killing us with those types of plays for years & we let them march down the field slowly but surely. I see that happening even more with Allen on the team. The balls will come out quick & for short yardage, but if we still allow them to catch it, they are going to move the chains.

It's exactly what we try to do to other teams with our WCO.

If our defense continually allows 5-6 yard passes to be caught, teams are going to take advantage of it. If a defense allows a RB to get 5-6 YPC, those teams are going to run the ball.

Give me DB's who can bat the ball away for an incompletion & then we have something.


With the addition of Allen this year, I see teams using the quick slant on us a lot more this year. When's the last time Allen got a sack on a quick slant?

Where I see him having an impact on those plays is the coverage he will draw. Hopefully it allows our inside guys to get in the face of the QB sooner.

We were worst in the league for yards given up last year. 4,225 yards given up. Of the 646 catches we gave up, only 46 of them were for 20+ yards & 6 of them for 40+.

That means 594 of them were short passes where we allowed our opponents to catch the ball w/o much YAC. 170 of them were for first downs.

The yards add up quickly don't they?

They won't add up as quickly as that when the LBrs are allowed to drop into those short zones so the QB doesn't throw the short balls to the WR's that you want the CB's to bat down.
;D

From our good friends and Wiki.....


Cover Two - By far the most complicated zone coverage with the safeties playing deep and covering half the field each. In cover two the cornerbacks are considered to be "hard" corners, meaning that they have increased run stopping responsibilities and generally defend against shorter passes, although if two receivers run a deep route on a certain side of the field, that side's corner has deep coverage responsibility as well. It also relies heavily on the Mike (Middle) Linebacker's ability to quickly drop deep downfield into pass coverage when he reads pass. The advantage of cover 2 is that it provides great versatility to the defense as the corners can play run, short pass, and deep pass with the confidence that they have support from two deep safeties, while the disadvantage is that it leaves only 7 men in the "box" (area near the ball at the snap) to defend against the run. In contrast cover 1 and 3 usually leave 8 men in the box. A variant of cover two is the inverted cover 2, in which either right before or after the snap the corners "bail" out while the safeties come up - in effect switching responsibilities. This strategy may be employed to trick a quarterback who has not correctly interpreted the shift.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football_strategy

From our good friends and Geocities....


"Cover 2" is identifield with two safeties and the two corners playing tight. The two safeties cut the deep field in halves, while the corners cover the flats. The linebackers cover the middle of the field. The passing hot spots lie short in between the corner and linebackers and long by splitting right in between the safeties. This is perhaps the strongest defense against the pass, but in turn it is weaker against the run.

http://www.geocities.com/djdj0705/scheme.html

Long story short, the cover 2 hasn't worked because we didn't have the right personnel to execute it.
Now, under the assumption that JA makes everything better on the DL (front 4 get pressure), our LB's can now do thier jobs and that is to assist the CB's in taking away those quick slots/outs that all of us hate watching.

Heres hoping JA is everything he is all cut up to be.
;D