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View Full Version : Of the projected Viking starters, Who is the weakest link to the team?



KevinK
06-19-2008, 06:45 AM
First off Im sorry about the negative Post.
I was just thinking that our starters compared to last year prior to the season we have eliminated alot of bad players.
I asked this same question last year and I recieved many names like TWill, TJack, Cook, Erasamus James and other odd picks(I got slammed for listing Udeze). Is there anyone you feel is overrated or just plain sucks? I value all of your opinions and want to learn from the brighter PPOers their thoughts about the starting 22 on offense and defense. Gosh we look a lot better this year!
:)
My opinion is TE Shiancoe.
I feel he is the most underachieveing player at his postion.
I also feel next year we may make a move to get an elite TE.

PurpleTide
06-19-2008, 07:30 AM
I really see a great looking roster for this upcoming season. We are going to have to let go some very good football players, most if not all of the released guys will be picked up by other teams.

That said, the only glaring weakness we have is back-up at LT. If Bryant gets a suspension we will be scrambling to protect T-Jacks blind side, and once again will have to keep a TE in to help. I'm hoping we open the playbook more this year, but having to keep extra blockers out of pass route's is not the best scenario. Personnely I think Shiancoe is gonna have a break-out season if he can run some pass route's instead of blocking all the time.

Zeus
06-19-2008, 07:34 AM
Sharper.

=Z=

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 07:47 AM
"Zeus" wrote:


Sharper.

=Z=

+1
;D

KevinK
06-19-2008, 07:51 AM
Last year, I felt Sharper was on the top 5 on that list and many people agreed and disagreed with me.
It seems many people do believe that he is overrated, afterall.
Do you think that the rookie(Johnson) could take his starting spot at some point this season?

daftparrot
06-19-2008, 07:55 AM
as of last year, herrera.
but he's young, who knows how much better he'll be this year.

i_bleed_purple
06-19-2008, 07:59 AM
I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Zeus
06-19-2008, 07:59 AM
"KevinK" wrote:


Last year, I felt Sharper was on the top 5 on that list and many people agreed and disagreed with me.
It seems many people do believe that he is overrated, afterall.
Do you think that the rookie(Johnson) could take his starting spot at some point this season?


I have no idea since I've never seen Johnson play one second of football.

I just don't like Sharper's play, espcially for someone that the rest of the league thinks is a super stud.

=Z=

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 08:03 AM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.

ItalianStallion
06-19-2008, 08:04 AM
Either Cook or Tarvaris because their lack of experience at 2 difficult positions will show this season...

V-Unit
06-19-2008, 08:13 AM
"KevinK" wrote:


Last year, I felt Sharper was on the top 5 on that list and many people agreed and disagreed with me.
It seems many people do believe that he is overrated, afterall.
Do you think that the rookie(Johnson) could take his starting spot at some point this season?


2 does not equal many.

KevinK
06-19-2008, 08:24 AM
2 does not equal many.

Posted by: V

Look at the post from last year, There were more than two people who thought Sharp was overrated.
But I also feel he is still a great player, though he is not what he once was.

seaniemck7
06-19-2008, 08:26 AM
"V" wrote:


"KevinK" wrote:


Last year, I felt Sharper was on the top 5 on that list and many people agreed and disagreed with me.
It seems many people do believe that he is overrated, afterall.
Do you think that the rookie(Johnson) could take his starting spot at some point this season?


2 does not equal many.


3

I have a feeling we will see a good bit of Tyrrell Johnson this year.
I have a feeling we will be running a big nickel package on a regular basis with TJohnson in there. No way are people gonna run on us. Teams once again will have to pass pass pass to move the ball at all.

vikingivan
06-19-2008, 09:03 AM
Childress!

C Mac D
06-19-2008, 09:13 AM
You know... other than weaknesses from B-Mac getting suspended or Ryan "I should have been a..." Cook, I'd say TJack is our biggest weakness... but I say that with complete confidence in the kid. I think he'll be great, but we still have yet to see that. A lot rides on whether or not Tjack can perform, and I'd say that unsureness is the team's biggest downfall right now. All eyes are going to be on T-Jack come August.

KevinK
06-19-2008, 09:19 AM
Posted on: Today at 07:13:35 pmPosted by: C Mac D


You know... other than weaknesses from B-Mac getting suspended or Ryan "I should have been a..." Cook

LOL! Thats hilarious! Should have been Cook!

pack93z
06-19-2008, 09:19 AM
At this very moment.. Offensive Tackles.. questions surround your starting left tackle off the field and some questions on the field. At right tackle.. we shall see if Cook can shore up some or another can take his place.

Not far behind is the play of your CB's.. in my unbiased opinion.

C Mac D
06-19-2008, 09:22 AM
"pack93z" wrote:


At this very moment.. Offensive Tackles.. questions surround your starting left tackle off the field and some questions on the field. At right tackle.. we shall see if Cook can shore up some or another can take his place.

Not far behind in the play of your CB's.. in my unbiased opinion.


I agree actually... with everything you said.

Like I said in my first post, Offensive Tackles aside (and I realize thats a BIG aside)...

But you're dead-on with the CB issue. IMHO, we have two (one great) hard-hitting CBs, we need a coverage guy out there. Marcus McCauley is a burner and has decent coverage skills, but I haven't seen him do anything that would lead me to believe he should be the starter.

Also, our improved pass rush SHOULD be a big help to our CB situation... I hope.

El Vikingo
06-19-2008, 09:24 AM
I don´t trust Griffin at all ,I wish he proves I am wrong..

From that list I don´t like Mr"I only know how to block my hands are butter" Shiancoe

KevinK
06-19-2008, 09:26 AM
Posted by: pack93z


At this very moment.. Offensive Tackles.. questions surround your starting left tackle off the field and some questions on the field. At right tackle.. we shall see if Cook can shore up some or another can take his place.

Not far behind is the play of your CB's.. in my unbiased opinion.



I think the CB's in my opinion are better than you think Pack93z.
I think the play of them will be better with added DE help this year.
But I appreciate your
opinion from an obvious Educated Football Fan.

pack93z
06-19-2008, 09:28 AM
"C" wrote:


Also, our improved pass rush SHOULD be a big help to our CB situation... I hope.


I will only say this once.. the Vikes made a very wise move in adding proven pressure instead of spending money on corners.. the Giants proved it last year, with solid pressure any average corners can survive in the NFL.. From just a Packers prespective.. I like our chances with Cliffy vs Allen.. it is the interior pressure that scares me from the Vikes..

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 09:31 AM
"pack93z" wrote:


At this very moment.. Offensive Tackles.. questions surround your starting left tackle off the field and some questions on the field. At right tackle.. we shall see if Cook can shore up some or another can take his place.

Not far behind is the play of your CB's.. in my unbiased opinion.

Again, another fan that is judging our CB play based on "Shut Down" corner rational instead of the "Cover 2" scheme.

;D

The addition of a pass rush from the edge will make all of you see that our CB's are actually good for the scheme.

Sure they will still let guys catch the ball in front of them, but that is by design.
Its what they do after the ball is caught that makes them good.
Take a look at Griffs numbers.
His tackles were up there pretty high and he didn't let many get out of his grip for large gains.

Talk shut down corner with a team that runs a Press/Man coverage scheme my friend.
;D

El Vikingo
06-19-2008, 09:33 AM
LMAO !!!,Kevin.You only have to click on quote to make the previous post appears
on yellow ,what kind of technique is that .LMAO!!!

KevinK
06-19-2008, 09:42 AM
El vikingo, this is why im in the Yell 95% of the time. Im not very computer savy. LOL! I just cut and paste the quotes.

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 09:46 AM
"KevinK" wrote:


El vikingo, this is why im in the Yell 95% of the time. Im not very computer savy. LOL! I just cut and paste the quotes.

Kevin, you can just hit the quote button and the post will show up in quotes.

If you want to add something else you can "Cut/Paste it in and use the Quote function as well.

You can find that quote function in the other buttons (Bottom row, 3rd from right) just by moving your mouse over them and holding it there a sec.
The use of that button will come up.

KevinK
06-19-2008, 09:46 AM
"El" wrote:


LMAO !!!,Kevin.You only have to click on quote to make the previous post appears
on yellow ,what kind of technique is that .LMAO!!!

Ok now i have figured it out. LOL

El Vikingo
06-19-2008, 09:48 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:


At this very moment.. Offensive Tackles.. questions surround your starting left tackle off the field and some questions on the field. At right tackle.. we shall see if Cook can shore up some or another can take his place.

Not far behind is the play of your CB's.. in my unbiased opinion.

Again, another fan that is judging our CB play based on "Shut Down" corner rational instead of the "Cover 2" scheme.

;D

The addition of a pass rush from the edge will make all of you see that our CB's are actually good for the scheme.

Sure they will still let guys catch the ball in front of them, but that is by design.
Its what they do after the ball is caught that makes them good.
Take a look at Griffs numbers.

His tackles were up there pretty high and he didn't let many get out of his grip for large gains.

Talk shut down corner with a team that runs a Press/Man coverage scheme my friend.

;D


Some time without saying something serious here ,so I am gonna try to do it....This goes for Mr.Green dot.

I know other teams based their
attack against us in the air ,cause they were afraid of our great ground D,and the QB rush was shitty too.But the numbers our CB had last season was unacceptable,1 INT in all the season long 1 KWill got more int that our starters CB together,the more YAC allowed in the entire league (thing that is not weird looking that our CB were always 5 yards away of their respective Wides) and
we ranked dead last in pass yards allowed too.

You can say whatever you want about the Cover 2 Defense of Childress(which a member said was cover your mouth in the game and cover your ass in the Press conf.) or the"bend ,don´t break philosophy" ,to hell with that bend don´t break we gotta be harder and more intense in the wings to be a real top defense and this league ,I wouldn´t mind allowing some more TD´S of our opponents If we can improve significantly those numbers.

tastywaves
06-19-2008, 10:00 AM
If you're grading by weakest link by position and last year's play (that is all we really have to go by at this point), then I would say its close between Cook, Shiancoe and TJ.
In terms of the "weakest link to the team", I would have to say TJ based on last year's performance and the importance of his position.

Even though I've posted many threads on upgrading the TE position as I believe there is a lot of room for improvement,
I think the bigger impact to the team will be the play of Cook and TJ vs. Shank.

If B-Mac gets suspended, then there is a significant concern here as well that is magnified by Cook if he doesn't improve.

If life goes great, then Shank will prove to be the weakest link.

I'm not that concerned with our corner play.
I think their stats are misleading as well and believe they do a good job in what they are asked to do.
Cedric does seem to get lazy at times though, and was singled out by many teams as the point of attack.
More pressure by the front 4 and these guys will elevate quickly in people's minds.
Madieu is going to help these guys as well with his range and over the top coverage.

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 10:01 AM
"El" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:


At this very moment.. Offensive Tackles.. questions surround your starting left tackle off the field and some questions on the field. At right tackle.. we shall see if Cook can shore up some or another can take his place.

Not far behind is the play of your CB's.. in my unbiased opinion.

Again, another fan that is judging our CB play based on "Shut Down" corner rational instead of the "Cover 2" scheme.

;D

The addition of a pass rush from the edge will make all of you see that our CB's are actually good for the scheme.

Sure they will still let guys catch the ball in front of them, but that is by design.
Its what they do after the ball is caught that makes them good.
Take a look at Griffs numbers.

His tackles were up there pretty high and he didn't let many get out of his grip for large gains.

Talk shut down corner with a team that runs a Press/Man coverage scheme my friend.

;D


Some time without saying something serious here ,so I am gonna try to do it....This goes for Mr.Green dot.

I know other teams based their
attack against us in the air ,cause they were afraid of our great ground D,and the QB rush was poohie too.But the numbers our CB had last season was unacceptable,1 INT in all the season long 1 KWill got more int that our starters CB together,the more YAC allowed in the entire league (thing that is not weird looking that our CB were always 5 yards away of their respective Wides) and
we ranked dead last in pass yards allowed too.

You can say whatever you want about the Cover 2 Defense of Childress(which a member said was cover your mouth in the game and cover your jiggly butt in the Press conf.) or the"bend ,don´t break philosophy" ,to hell with that bend don´t break we gotta be harder and more intense in the wings to be a real top defense and this league ,I wouldn´t mind allowing some more TD´S of our opponents If we can improve significantly those numbers.


I hear ya my friend.
Almost every fan out there would love to see a man to man or press coverage from this team.

Heck it does add more excitement cause you get more INT's from your CB, however, we are designed (players skill sets) for the cover 2.


We would really have to do some manpower shifts if we were to change.
Guys like Whinny, Gordon, McCauley, M-will, JJ would all have to go as they are better suited as cover 2 guys.

I for one like the concept.
You force the team to move the ball consistently to beat you instead of giving up a big play about every third series.

pack93z
06-19-2008, 10:02 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


Again, another fan that is judging our CB play based on "Shut Down" corner rational instead of the "Cover 2" scheme.

;D

The addition of a pass rush from the edge will make all of you see that our CB's are actually good for the scheme.

Sure they will still let guys catch the ball in front of them, but that is by design.
Its what they do after the ball is caught that makes them good.
Take a look at Griffs numbers.

His tackles were up there pretty high and he didn't let many get out of his grip for large gains.

Talk shut down corner with a team that runs a Press/Man coverage scheme my friend.

;D


I will give you this, your scheme is designed to protect your CB's and allow everything to happen in front of them.. making it less gamble oriented and puts more weight in their reactionary skill sets.

But it still doesn't change the story, regardless of scheme or players, that you allowed people to run over the secondary time and time again.. you point to lack of pressure as the major concern..

Totals Sacks..

GB 36
MN 38..

It comes down to a couple of key numbers to me..

Completion % 64.2%
1st downs by pass 222 - Most in the NFL.. you can point to the stout run defense to explain some of that, but way to often when your secondary had to make a play.. it couldn't make a play.
QB Rating allowed 86.3

In my opinion, your secondary is a soft spot.. with that front 7 last year they knew people were going to pass at them and point blank they couldn't stop them.

Our defense has it's holes as well.. noteably our MLB can't shed a block to save his soul, our SAM backer is always trailing in plays and our CB's can be had with bigger physical recievers. But most noteably is that lack of adjustments by our DC when a team has an effect scheme or player against our coverage.. he won't come out of that base look.. and it cost us a ticket to the Super Bowl last year.

El Vikingo
06-19-2008, 10:06 AM
"pack93z" wrote:


and it cost us a ticket to the Super Bowl last year.



And that was so sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet my friend
;D

ItalianStallion
06-19-2008, 10:13 AM
"El" wrote:


I don´t trust Griffin at all ,I wish he proves I am wrong..

From that list I don´t like Mr"I only know how to block my hands are butter" Shiancoe


I recently watched a lot of last years game film and I noticed that teams often attacked Griffin.
However, on a lot of the big catches against him he usually had great coverage on the WR.
Unfortunately you usually saw the WR make an outstanding grab and/or ripping the ball from Griffin.
Some of which come to mind include:

The Bowe TD catch, the Calvin Johnson TD catch, the Washington game (Great catch by Moss, on the second TD he would have had the INT but Sharper ran into him), the amazing catch by Kevin Curtis etc...

That tells me he has the coverage skills to stick with these WRs he just needs to work on his ball skills to break up these passes he's put himself in a position to stop.

Sharper may be overrated, and he shouldn't have made the Pro Bowl last year, but he's far from our weakest starter and from what I remember, didn't play as poorly as many of our current starters did last year at times (including Jackson, Cook, McKinnie, Wade, etc.).
Even Winfield had some bad games last year...

ItalianStallion
06-19-2008, 10:22 AM
"pack93z" wrote:


I will give you this, your scheme is designed to protect your CB's and allow everything to happen in front of them.. making it less gamble oriented and puts more weight in their reactionary skill sets.

But it still doesn't change the story, regardless of scheme or players, that you allowed people to run over the secondary time and time again.. you point to lack of pressure as the major concern..

Totals Sacks..

GB 36
MN 38..

It comes down to a couple of key numbers to me..

Completion % 64.2%
1st downs by pass 222 - Most in the NFL.. you can point to the stout run defense to explain some of that, but way to often when your secondary had to make a play.. it couldn't make a play.
QB Rating allowed 86.3

In my opinion, your secondary is a soft spot.. with that front 7 last year they knew people were going to pass at them and point blank they couldn't stop them.

Our defense has it's holes as well.. noteably our MLB can't shed a block to save his soul, our SAM backer is always trailing in plays and our CB's can be had with bigger physical recievers. But most noteably is that lack of adjustments by our DC when a team has an effect scheme or player against our coverage.. he won't come out of that base look.. and it cost us a ticket to the Super Bowl last year.



Our issue wasn't necessarily with the amount of sacks we got (although more would have helped), but far too often QBs would have all day back in the pocket.
Yah sure occasionaly we'd get a couple sacks or something (usually with a blitz), but our front 4 rarely brought enough pressure to hurry a QB's decision making.

Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...

pack93z
06-19-2008, 10:29 AM
"ItalianStallion" wrote:


Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,

kevoncox
06-19-2008, 10:31 AM
As far as the weakest link, are we talkng about who we belive will be the weakest link this season? Or, are we talking about from what wee know so far.

If it's so far, TJ. I say tha tbecause RT can be helped and aided by another position( TE or FB)
The QB position must make the throws we need. Last year, even with solid blocking and a pocket, TJ over threw and skipped passes into the ground (Remember the Bobby Wade argument)

Lastly, our corner play has been poor. I think their coverage skills are great, however, they were often outjumped at the point of attack. This is unacceptable from the 6'1 Griffen. I think Griffen's issue is that he goes for the INT in some situatiions he should be going for the bat down. Hopefully, with additional pressure, we will get some more poorly thrown passes and our Cbs will attack the ball at the highest point.

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 10:33 AM
"pack93z" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


Again, another fan that is judging our CB play based on "Shut Down" corner rational instead of the "Cover 2" scheme.

;D

The addition of a pass rush from the edge will make all of you see that our CB's are actually good for the scheme.

Sure they will still let guys catch the ball in front of them, but that is by design.
Its what they do after the ball is caught that makes them good.
Take a look at Griffs numbers.

His tackles were up there pretty high and he didn't let many get out of his grip for large gains.

Talk shut down corner with a team that runs a Press/Man coverage scheme my friend.

;D


I will give you this, your scheme is designed to protect your CB's and allow everything to happen in front of them.. making it less gamble oriented and puts more weight in their reactionary skill sets.

But it still doesn't change the story, regardless of scheme or players, that you allowed people to run over the secondary time and time again.. you point to lack of pressure as the major concern..

Totals Sacks..

GB 36
MN 38..

It comes down to a couple of key numbers to me..

Completion % 64.2%
1st downs by pass 222 - Most in the NFL.. you can point to the stout run defense to explain some of that, but way to often when your secondary had to make a play.. it couldn't make a play.
QB Rating allowed 86.3

In my opinion, your secondary is a soft spot.. with that front 7 last year they knew people were going to pass at them and point blank they couldn't stop them.

Our defense has it's holes as well.. noteably our MLB can't shed a block to save his soul, our SAM backer is always trailing in plays and our CB's can be had with bigger physical recievers. But most noteably is that lack of adjustments by our DC when a team has an effect scheme or player against our coverage.. he won't come out of that base look.. and it cost us a ticket to the Super Bowl last year.


Another solid post from you my friend.
Problem is, it still doesn't quite point out the problem.

The whole with our pass defense wasn't our CB's but the lack of our LB's in the short zone.
Take the LB sacks out of our totals and you will see that we had very little pressure from our front 4 which caused the D-cord to start blitzing.

Again, that takes the LB'rs out of the short zones and now the WR's can just break it off and catch the ball for 5 and 10 yard gains which equates to everyone thinking our CB's suck.

Watch this year as JA's pressence is felt and you will see a different story in that regard.

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 10:36 AM
"ItalianStallion" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:


I will give you this, your scheme is designed to protect your CB's and allow everything to happen in front of them.. making it less gamble oriented and puts more weight in their reactionary skill sets.

But it still doesn't change the story, regardless of scheme or players, that you allowed people to run over the secondary time and time again.. you point to lack of pressure as the major concern..

Totals Sacks..

GB 36
MN 38..

It comes down to a couple of key numbers to me..

Completion % 64.2%
1st downs by pass 222 - Most in the NFL.. you can point to the stout run defense to explain some of that, but way to often when your secondary had to make a play.. it couldn't make a play.
QB Rating allowed 86.3

In my opinion, your secondary is a soft spot.. with that front 7 last year they knew people were going to pass at them and point blank they couldn't stop them.

Our defense has it's holes as well.. noteably our MLB can't shed a block to save his soul, our SAM backer is always trailing in plays and our CB's can be had with bigger physical recievers. But most noteably is that lack of adjustments by our DC when a team has an effect scheme or player against our coverage.. he won't come out of that base look.. and it cost us a ticket to the Super Bowl last year.



Our issue wasn't necessarily with the amount of sacks we got (although more would have helped), but far too often QBs would have all day back in the pocket.
Yah sure occasionaly we'd get a couple sacks or something (usually with a blitz), but our front 4 rarely brought enough pressure to hurry a QB's decision making.

Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...

Excellent post my friend.
;D

kevoncox
06-19-2008, 10:37 AM
"pack93z" wrote:


"ItalianStallion" wrote:


Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,


I Disagree. I think people forget that Griffen was a 2nd year player last year. MM was a rookie. Give these guys some time and they will blossom. Gordon, MM and Griffen all have the talent to start.

olson_10
06-19-2008, 10:39 AM
its a tie between griffin and jackson..i really like our 2nd round pick, and m williams will be patrolling the safety spot next to him for years to come, so unfortunately the vikes cant move griffin to safety now

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 10:39 AM
"pack93z" wrote:


"ItalianStallion" wrote:


Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,

Of course because he is a fan favorite on here and you will get flack for that comment/statement, but I gotta agree with you there......

If we were playing in a Man to Man scheme I would side with them and disagree with you, however, because we play cover 2, he does tend to like to try to freelance a bit and gets burned.


I remember last year all the smack talking about a TE can't score on him.....That crowd sure got shut up fast when he got burned by a TE.
;D

olson_10
06-19-2008, 10:41 AM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:


"ItalianStallion" wrote:


Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,


I Disagree. I think people forget that Griffen was a 2nd year player last year. MM was a rookie. Give these guys some time and they will blossom. Gordon, MM and Griffen all have the talent to start.

yah but we arent comparing potential, we are talking about who is currently the weaker link, and our CBs besides winfield havent yet shown that they can cover very well..granted, we didnt have a great pass rush, but whether or not the qb had 2 seconds or 10, they got beat on weak moves by receivers too often last season..it will certainly improve how they look when we are getting the QB more often, but these guys have to step up and make plays when the qb does get the ball off

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 10:41 AM
"kevoncox" wrote:


As far as the weakest link, are we talkng about who we belive will be the weakest link this season? Or, are we talking about from what wee know so far.

If it's so far, TJ. I say tha tbecause RT can be helped and aided by another position( TE or FB)
The QB position must make the throws we need. Last year, even with solid blocking and a pocket, TJ over threw and skipped passes into the ground (Remember the Bobby Wade argument)

Lastly, our corner play has been poor. I think their coverage skills are great, however, they were often outjumped at the point of attack. This is unacceptable from the 6'1 Griffen. I think Griffen's issue is that he goes for the INT in some situatiions he should be going for the bat down. Hopefully, with additional pressure, we will get some more poorly thrown passes and our Cbs will attack the ball at the highest point.

Great point about the "Outjumping Issue" my friend.

As for Cook, I really think that his need for help started to slack off a bit last year.
Based on how he progressed I think the coaches will have him ready to go this year.

olson_10
06-19-2008, 10:45 AM
"pack93z" wrote:


"ItalianStallion" wrote:


Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,

dwight smith's lack of coverage skills made sharper look bad alot of times..also LBs missing downfield coverage assignments contributed as well..sharper didnt have a great season by any means, but some other guys werent doing their jobs at times and prevented him from doing what he does best, roaming the secondary

in regards to the first post that you quoted pack93z, italian stallion is right, we are far from being the worst secondary, and yes, i do expect at least one of those guys to step up and start opposite winfield, while benny sapp will likely move into the #3 spot

kevoncox
06-19-2008, 10:46 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:


"ItalianStallion" wrote:


Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,

Of course because he is a fan favorite on here and you will get flack for that comment/statement, but I gotta agree with you there......

If we were playing in a Man to Man scheme I would side with them and disagree with you, however, because we play cover 2, he does tend to like to try to freelance a bit and gets burned.


I remember last year all the smack talking about a TE can't score on him.....That crowd sure got shut up fast when he got burned by a TE.

;D



Was it Cooley?

olson_10
06-19-2008, 10:47 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


As far as the weakest link, are we talkng about who we belive will be the weakest link this season? Or, are we talking about from what wee know so far.

If it's so far, TJ. I say tha tbecause RT can be helped and aided by another position( TE or FB)
The QB position must make the throws we need. Last year, even with solid blocking and a pocket, TJ over threw and skipped passes into the ground (Remember the Bobby Wade argument)

Lastly, our corner play has been poor. I think their coverage skills are great, however, they were often outjumped at the point of attack. This is unacceptable from the 6'1 Griffen. I think Griffen's issue is that he goes for the INT in some situatiions he should be going for the bat down. Hopefully, with additional pressure, we will get some more poorly thrown passes and our Cbs will attack the ball at the highest point.

Great point about the "Outjumping Issue" my friend.

As for Cook, I really think that his need for help started to slack off a bit last year.
Based on how he progressed I think the coaches will have him ready to go this year.

in cooks case, you really can look at inexperience..the guy was a C his whole life, then one day hes thrown into a totally different position at the Pro level..the guy didnt even play T at the college level, so you know its going to be a huge transition..i think he was bad at times last season, be he did improve at least..the only problem last season is that we had to practically handcuff kleinsasser to him in order to protect our QB..im hoping that with AD's improved pass blocking skills will help to make cook look a little bit better

ItalianStallion
06-19-2008, 10:48 AM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:


"ItalianStallion" wrote:


Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,

Of course because he is a fan favorite on here and you will get flack for that comment/statement, but I gotta agree with you there......

If we were playing in a Man to Man scheme I would side with them and disagree with you, however, because we play cover 2, he does tend to like to try to freelance a bit and gets burned.


I remember last year all the smack talking about a TE can't score on him.....That crowd sure got shut up fast when he got burned by a TE.

;D



Was it Cooley?


That play was a breakdown in coverage, not the result of Sharper getting burned.
I don't even think that was Sharper's zone, but EJ's or Smith's.
I could be wrong though, I'm simply going off memory.

olson_10
06-19-2008, 10:49 AM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:


"ItalianStallion" wrote:


Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,

Of course because he is a fan favorite on here and you will get flack for that comment/statement, but I gotta agree with you there......

If we were playing in a Man to Man scheme I would side with them and disagree with you, however, because we play cover 2, he does tend to like to try to freelance a bit and gets burned.


I remember last year all the smack talking about a TE can't score on him.....That crowd sure got shut up fast when he got burned by a TE.
;D



Was it Cooley?

yah but if you watch that play again marrdro, you can see that a LB was covering, but was fooled and left his coverage, while sharper had already committed to a side of the field

kevoncox
06-19-2008, 10:51 AM
"olson_10" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:


"ItalianStallion" wrote:


Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,

Of course because he is a fan favorite on here and you will get flack for that comment/statement, but I gotta agree with you there......

If we were playing in a Man to Man scheme I would side with them and disagree with you, however, because we play cover 2, he does tend to like to try to freelance a bit and gets burned.


I remember last year all the smack talking about a TE can't score on him.....That crowd sure got shut up fast when he got burned by a TE.

;D



Was it Cooley?

yah but if you watch that play again marrdro, you can see that a LB was covering, but was fooled and left his coverage, while sharper had already committed to a side of the field


Basica cover 2. Stay on you hash until the ball is thrown. He was in the middle of the field and off his hash. The catch was made about 5 yards from the hash mark!

kevoncox
06-19-2008, 10:52 AM
"ItalianStallion" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:


"ItalianStallion" wrote:


Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,

Of course because he is a fan favorite on here and you will get flack for that comment/statement, but I gotta agree with you there......

If we were playing in a Man to Man scheme I would side with them and disagree with you, however, because we play cover 2, he does tend to like to try to freelance a bit and gets burned.


I remember last year all the smack talking about a TE can't score on him.....That crowd sure got shut up fast when he got burned by a TE.

;D



Was it Cooley?


That play was a breakdown in coverage, not the result of Sharper getting burned.
I don't even think that was Sharper's zone, but EJ's or Smith's.
I could be wrong though, I'm simply going off memory.


No it was cover 2.

olson_10
06-19-2008, 10:58 AM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"olson_10" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:




Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,

Of course because he is a fan favorite on here and you will get flack for that comment/statement, but I gotta agree with you there......

If we were playing in a Man to Man scheme I would side with them and disagree with you, however, because we play cover 2, he does tend to like to try to freelance a bit and gets burned.


I remember last year all the smack talking about a TE can't score on him.....That crowd sure got shut up fast when he got burned by a TE.
;D



Was it Cooley?

yah but if you watch that play again marrdro, you can see that a LB was covering, but was fooled and left his coverage, while sharper had already committed to a side of the field


Basica cover 2. Stay on you hash until the ball is thrown. He was in the middle of the field and off his hash. The catch was made about 5 yards from the hash mark!

thats the team philosophy, it doesnt mean they dont throw in plays with safeties in coverage..why do you think they got madieu williams? to use him in coverage while sharper picks his spots in the zone

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 10:59 AM
"olson_10" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:


"ItalianStallion" wrote:


Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,

Of course because he is a fan favorite on here and you will get flack for that comment/statement, but I gotta agree with you there......

If we were playing in a Man to Man scheme I would side with them and disagree with you, however, because we play cover 2, he does tend to like to try to freelance a bit and gets burned.


I remember last year all the smack talking about a TE can't score on him.....That crowd sure got shut up fast when he got burned by a TE.

;D



Was it Cooley?

yah but if you watch that play again marrdro, you can see that a LB was covering, but was fooled and left his coverage, while sharper had already committed to a side of the field

You know me......I wouldn't point something out if it only happened once....... ;D
;D
;D

Besides, because he gambled, freelanced he committed to the wrong reciever.
No way in hell should he have left a MLB to cover a TE along coming down the seam.

olson_10
06-19-2008, 11:04 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"olson_10" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:




Our secondary does need improvement, but it is far from the worst unit in the league (as our 32nd ranking may indicate).
Winfield , if healthy, makes a big impact.
Griffin wasn't as bad as many think last year and is getting better.
McCauley didn't show me much last year from the nickle spot and needs to improve in order to fight off Charles Gordon, who was also inconsistent.
Madieu Williams is an upgrade on Dwight Smith, and Sharper is savvy and experienced.
I expect one of Griffin/McCauley/Gordon to step up this year and be considerably better than last year.
They are all still young remember...


100% agree.. they are not the worst unit in football.. Detroit or maybe even the Browns held that honor despite the numbers. but if you want to beat the Vikes.. spread them out and pick away at the secondary.. you will break a couple of tackles and have your plays.
until the front seven start to wear down (not the deepest unit in football) and then you can run at them a little.

Williams is an upgrade.. but Sharper is still out of place far to often and is somewhat undisciplined in coverage.. I think it will still be an area of concern for the Vikings,

Of course because he is a fan favorite on here and you will get flack for that comment/statement, but I gotta agree with you there......

If we were playing in a Man to Man scheme I would side with them and disagree with you, however, because we play cover 2, he does tend to like to try to freelance a bit and gets burned.


I remember last year all the smack talking about a TE can't score on him.....That crowd sure got shut up fast when he got burned by a TE.
;D



Was it Cooley?

yah but if you watch that play again marrdro, you can see that a LB was covering, but was fooled and left his coverage, while sharper had already committed to a side of the field

You know me......I wouldn't point something out if it only happened once....... ;D
;D
;D

Besides, because he gambled, freelanced he committed to the wrong reciever.
No way in hell should he have left a MLB to cover a TE along coming down the seam.

alot of teams get by doing it

but its off topic, so lets get this thread back in the right direction rather than complaining about a play that none of us are exactly sure what the call was from the defensive co-ordinator

V-Unit
06-19-2008, 11:25 AM
We are talking about weakest links, yet 80% of this discussion is about defensive players. This is very upsetting indeed.

Griffin was not stellar, but he was solid and certainly did not cripple the defense as a whole. The receivers he got beat by are top tier guys. Given that he is very young and should improve, I'm not concerned at all.

Sharper was stellar. He was simply the rock of an otherwise shaky secondary, especially when Winny was injured. I think dissing his play is being overly critical.

In general I can't hate on our defensive players. They did exactly what they needed to last year, keeping us in several games. KC picked on Griffin all day long and scored 13 points. The deep ball rarely works against us. Does Sharper not deserve credit for that?

My weakest link on defense, and I really don't think there is one, would be a discussion between Griffin (lot of pressure to perform), Williams (first year in the system), and Edwards (steroids).

However, it is all moot because the weak link is clearly on offense. TJ, Shank, Cook, and Johnson are all weaker links than Griffin or Sharper.

Our defense was a pass rusher away from being stellar last year.

olson_10
06-19-2008, 11:32 AM
"V" wrote:


We are talking about weakest links, yet 80% of this discussion is about defensive players. This is very upsetting indeed.

Griffin was not stellar, but he was solid and certainly did not cripple the defense as a whole. The receivers he got beat by are top tier guys. Given that he is very young and should improve, I'm not concerned at all.

Sharper was stellar. He was simply the rock of an otherwise shaky secondary, especially when Winny was injured. I think dissing his play is being overly critical.

In general I can't hate on our defensive players. They did exactly what they needed to last year, keeping us in several games. KC picked on Griffin all day long and scored 13 points. The deep ball rarely works against us. Does Sharper not deserve credit for that?

My weakest link on defense, and I really don't think there is one, would be a discussion between Griffin (lot of pressure to perform), Williams (first year in the system), and Edwards (steroids).

However, it is all moot because the weak link is clearly on offense. TJ, Shank, Cook, and Johnson are all weaker links than Griffin or Sharper.

Our defense was a pass rusher away from being stellar last year.

i wasnt saying they were the weakest links, i was simply elaborating on a previous discussion that was going on regarding those guys..its obviously jackson at this point given the importance of his role, and failure to deliver up to this point..i continue to hope that he proves me wrong

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 12:02 PM
"V" wrote:


We are talking about weakest links, yet 80% of this discussion is about defensive players. This is very upsetting indeed.

Griffin was not stellar, but he was solid and certainly did not cripple the defense as a whole. The receivers he got beat by are top tier guys. Given that he is very young and should improve, I'm not concerned at all.

Sharper was stellar. He was simply the rock of an otherwise shaky secondary, especially when Winny was injured. I think dissing his play is being overly critical.

In general I can't hate on our defensive players. They did exactly what they needed to last year, keeping us in several games. KC picked on Griffin all day long and scored 13 points. The deep ball rarely works against us. Does Sharper not deserve credit for that?

My weakest link on defense, and I really don't think there is one, would be a discussion between Griffin (lot of pressure to perform), Williams (first year in the system), and Edwards (steroids).

However, it is all moot because the weak link is clearly on offense. TJ, Shank, Cook, and Johnson are all weaker links than Griffin or Sharper.

Our defense was a pass rusher away from being stellar last year.

Damnit.


I worked way to hard to swing this thread against Sharper and away from TJ and there ya go, ruining with sensible talk.
;D
;D
;D

C Mac D
06-19-2008, 12:05 PM
Well... I'm the "1" that said Herrera... meant to push the Cook button...

i_bleed_purple
06-19-2008, 12:37 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.
Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 12:51 PM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.

i_bleed_purple
06-19-2008, 01:38 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


No maybe not weakest, but on defense he was.
Just because he had 92 tackles doesn't make him a great corner.
It makes him a physical corner whos not afraid to go hit someone, but his coverage still has work to be done.
Besides, his tackle numbers are inflated for a couple of reasons.
a) The Williams Wall.
No one can run up the middle, so any run that goes anywhere usually gets bounced to the outside, right into... yep, you guessed it, a Corner (or safety).
b) Cover 2:
Cover 2 has both corners drop into a flat zone, so short outs and screens will be thrown in front of the corners, giving them more tackles.
They have less int/knockdowns in this scheme, but their tackles go up.
c) he's the young guy out there:
when teams are going to pass, they try to pick on the weak link in the secondary.
Its certainly not Winfield, despite what you think, its not Sharper.
I believe Dwight Smith led the team in picks last year, so that only leaves Griffin.
This gives Griffin even more chances to make a tackle, but he'll give up more catches also.
(you can't make tackles when you knock the ball down, which should be the main priority of a corner, or as Madden would say "When the defender knocks the ball down, he's trying to make it so the Reciever can't catch it")

Now don't get me wrong.
I'm not saying Griffin is awful.
he's only a 3rd year player now, and I think with some work, he can become a good well rounded corner, but would i be disappointed if he left for someone better?
No.

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 01:49 PM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


No maybe not weakest, but on defense he was.
Just because he had 92 tackles doesn't make him a great corner.
It makes him a physical corner whos not afraid to go hit someone, but his coverage still has work to be done.

Besides, his tackle numbers are inflated for a couple of reasons.

a) The Williams Wall.
No one can run up the middle, so any run that goes anywhere usually gets bounced to the outside, right into... yep, you guessed it, a Corner (or safety).
b) Cover 2:
Cover 2 has both corners drop into a flat zone, so short outs and screens will be thrown in front of the corners, giving them more tackles.
They have less int/knockdowns in this scheme, but their tackles go up.
c) he's the young guy out there:
when teams are going to pass, they try to pick on the weak link in the secondary.
Its certainly not Winfield, despite what you think, its not Sharper.
I believe Dwight Smith led the team in picks last year, so that only leaves Griffin.
This gives Griffin even more chances to make a tackle, but he'll give up more catches also.
(you can't make tackles when you knock the ball down, which should be the main priority of a corner, or as Madden would say "When the defender knocks the ball down, he's trying to make it so the Reciever can't catch it")

Now don't get me wrong.
I'm not saying Griffin is awful.
he's only a 3rd year player now, and I think with some work, he can become a good well rounded corner, but would i be disappointed if he left for someone better?
No.

I agree with almost every point, but that one.

That is a quality/main focus of a CB in press coverage and not that of a CB that is giving at least a 5 -10 yard cushion that you see in the cover 2 scheme.

There is not CB in the world that can close that fast and knock a ball down.
Fact of the matter is that he did his job which is to tackle the WR as soon as he caught the ball without any significant YAC.
Again, all in the design of the Cover 2.

Watch Whinny play.
His tackle numbers are up there as well, because of the scheme.
Again, Whinnys strenght is his tackling after the WR catches the ball, not INT's or batted balls.

kevoncox
06-19-2008, 01:58 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


Marr,
You know stats mean very little compare to quality of play.

Marrdro
06-19-2008, 02:10 PM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


Marr,
You know stats mean very little compare to quality of play.

But they are good indicators my friend.
Griff, for all his faults, played within the scheme last year and did everything (on almost every play) that was asked of him by the coaching staff.

Problem here is that people want to compare our CB's to a shut down CB's and it just doesn't equate that way.

They, by design, are supposed to give a cusion on most plays, let the reciever catch the ball and then tackle them as soon as they catch the ball without giving up any huge gains (YAC) in an effort to force the opposing offense to move the ball the length of the field in small chunks.

They are also supposed to have LB's dropping into those passing lanes in an effort to delay the throw or make the QB go to his second read.

Again, the addition of JA should alleviate alot of that stuff this year (in theory/on paper) but they will still give up short gains as it is by design.

olson_10
06-19-2008, 02:20 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:




I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.
Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


Marr,
You know stats mean very little compare to quality of play.

But they are good indicators my friend.
Griff, for all his faults, played within the scheme last year and did everything (on almost every play) that was asked of him by the coaching staff.

Problem here is that people want to compare our CB's to a shut down CB's and it just doesn't equate that way.

They, by design, are supposed to give a cusion on most plays, let the reciever catch the ball and then tackle them as soon as they catch the ball without giving up any huge gains (YAC) in an effort to force the opposing offense to move the ball the length of the field in small chunks.

They are also supposed to have LB's dropping into those passing lanes in an effort to delay the throw or make the QB go to his second read.

Again, the addition of JA should alleviate alot of that stuff this year (in theory/on paper) but they will still give up short gains as it is by design.

in griffins case, he gets alot of tackles because so many guys catch the ball near him..in winfields case, hes just that gol 'darnit good in run coverage..i dont think griffin is the teams weakest link, but he was out of all of the starters in the secondary

duvaldomo
06-19-2008, 02:25 PM
shaincoe because he has been learning how to play behind jeremy shocky. Who did Tjack have? Brad Johnson? He have Ferrotte now but Tjack is the start now so he have to learn while playing. Cook is not in his rightful position. Herra still young. Sharper is still good, not the best because he is getting old but he can still play

i_bleed_purple
06-19-2008, 03:13 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:




I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


Marr,
You know stats mean very little compare to quality of play.

But they are good indicators my friend.

Griff, for all his faults, played within the scheme last year and did everything (on almost every play) that was asked of him by the coaching staff.

Problem here is that people want to compare our CB's to a shut down CB's and it just doesn't equate that way.

They, by design, are supposed to give a cusion on most plays, let the reciever catch the ball and then tackle them as soon as they catch the ball without giving up any huge gains (YAC) in an effort to force the opposing offense to move the ball the length of the field in small chunks.

They are also supposed to have LB's dropping into those passing lanes in an effort to delay the throw or make the QB go to his second read.

Again, the addition of JA should alleviate alot of that stuff this year (in theory/on paper) but they will still give up short gains as it is by design.


but do realize, there is a difference between just not being a shut down corner, and blowing coverage.
Come on Marr.. your should realize this.
now your just arguing for the sake of arguing.

MaxVike
06-19-2008, 03:20 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


If you're grading by weakest link by position and last year's play (that is all we really have to go by at this point), then I would say its close between Cook, Shiancoe and TJ.
In terms of the "weakest link to the team", I would have to say TJ based on last year's performance and the importance of his position.

Even though I've posted many threads on upgrading the TE position as I believe there is a lot of room for improvement,
I think the bigger impact to the team will be the play of Cook and TJ vs. Shank.

If B-Mac gets suspended, then there is a significant concern here as well that is magnified by Cook if he doesn't improve.

If life goes great, then Shank will prove to be the weakest link.

I'm not that concerned with our corner play.
I think their stats are misleading as well and believe they do a good job in what they are asked to do.
Cedric does seem to get lazy at times though, and was singled out by many teams as the point of attack.
More pressure by the front 4 and these guys will elevate quickly in people's minds.
Madieu is going to help these guys as well with his range and over the top coverage.


Tasty, IMO, you absolutely nailed it.


QB is the most important position on the field, our QB is unproven still.
Do I think he will improve this year, yes.
Does that mean TJack is not the weakest link?
No.


Ask any defensive back what the most important thing to his success is, he will tell you pass rush.
Our defense will be badass if we can create consistent pressure without blitzing.


The answer to this question will be QB, until we have a proven winner behind Center again.

jargomcfargo
06-19-2008, 03:40 PM
"MaxVike" wrote:


"tastywaves" wrote:


If you're grading by weakest link by position and last year's play (that is all we really have to go by at this point), then I would say its close between Cook, Shiancoe and TJ.
In terms of the "weakest link to the team", I would have to say TJ based on last year's performance and the importance of his position.

Even though I've posted many threads on upgrading the TE position as I believe there is a lot of room for improvement,
I think the bigger impact to the team will be the play of Cook and TJ vs. Shank.

If B-Mac gets suspended, then there is a significant concern here as well that is magnified by Cook if he doesn't improve.

If life goes great, then Shank will prove to be the weakest link.

I'm not that concerned with our corner play.
I think their stats are misleading as well and believe they do a good job in what they are asked to do.
Cedric does seem to get lazy at times though, and was singled out by many teams as the point of attack.
More pressure by the front 4 and these guys will elevate quickly in people's minds.
Madieu is going to help these guys as well with his range and over the top coverage.


Tasty, IMO, you absolutely nailed it.


QB is the most important position on the field, our QB is unproven still.
Do I think he will improve this year, yes.
Does that mean TJack is not the weakest link?
No.


Ask any defensive back what the most important thing to his success is, he will tell you pass rush.
Our defense will be badass if we can create consistent pressure without blitzing.


The answer to this question will be QB, until we have a proven winner behind Center again.


Add in offensive play calling as a weak link and you've pretty well got it covered. !

I actually expect to see improvement all around as this young team starts to have some success, and gains confidence.
And with more tools in the toolbox, the play calling should evolve and improve as well.

Pretty exciting to enter a new season with promise and hope.

V-Unit
06-19-2008, 04:11 PM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:






I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


Marr,
You know stats mean very little compare to quality of play.

But they are good indicators my friend.

Griff, for all his faults, played within the scheme last year and did everything (on almost every play) that was asked of him by the coaching staff.

Problem here is that people want to compare our CB's to a shut down CB's and it just doesn't equate that way.

They, by design, are supposed to give a cusion on most plays, let the reciever catch the ball and then tackle them as soon as they catch the ball without giving up any huge gains (YAC) in an effort to force the opposing offense to move the ball the length of the field in small chunks.

They are also supposed to have LB's dropping into those passing lanes in an effort to delay the throw or make the QB go to his second read.

Again, the addition of JA should alleviate alot of that stuff this year (in theory/on paper) but they will still give up short gains as it is by design.


but do realize, there is a difference between just not being a shut down corner, and blowing coverage.
Come on Marr.. your should realize this.
now your just arguing for the sake of arguing.


I don't recall many instances where Griffin actually blew a coverage. Most of the time he was covering the receiver well, but wasn't able to make the play that a "shut-down corner" makes.

IwearSox21
06-19-2008, 04:23 PM
"V" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:








I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


Marr,
You know stats mean very little compare to quality of play.

But they are good indicators my friend.

Griff, for all his faults, played within the scheme last year and did everything (on almost every play) that was asked of him by the coaching staff.

Problem here is that people want to compare our CB's to a shut down CB's and it just doesn't equate that way.

They, by design, are supposed to give a cusion on most plays, let the reciever catch the ball and then tackle them as soon as they catch the ball without giving up any huge gains (YAC) in an effort to force the opposing offense to move the ball the length of the field in small chunks.

They are also supposed to have LB's dropping into those passing lanes in an effort to delay the throw or make the QB go to his second read.

Again, the addition of JA should alleviate alot of that stuff this year (in theory/on paper) but they will still give up short gains as it is by design.


but do realize, there is a difference between just not being a shut down corner, and blowing coverage.
Come on Marr.. your should realize this.
now your just arguing for the sake of arguing.


I don't recall many instances where Griffin actually blew a coverage. Most of the time he was covering the receiver well, but wasn't able to make the play that a "shut-down corner" makes.


last our safeties and passrush were the big problems. our corners played fine with williams and allen added Griffin will be just fine.

PacNWVike
06-19-2008, 05:42 PM
TJack will make or break us this year...

VikingsTw
06-19-2008, 06:28 PM
With the current team that we have at the moment there is no serious weak point IMO. Most uneducated anaylisist point directly to the QB postion but I don't believe its a big weakness. Tarvaris can be considered a weakness if your trying to compare him to a great QB. Right now he is still learning and developing. I expect some ruff moments with him this year and don't fully expect him to be developed untill his 4th or 5th season which would put him at 26/27 years old. What I do expect is a heavty jump in consistency, especailly given the added talent and previous experience.

I believe that our Kick Offs are a weak point, we've did little to change this. IMO Longwell lacks the leg to get the ball high and deep on kickoffs, too many times its high and short or long and low. To add to the Kickoffs I feel our Punt Return coverage has been very weak giving those guys little chance. Hopefully this will improve and we can get someone explosive to do the returning.

On Cedric Grifin I'm with Itallian, he had very good coverage most of the time, it can be very difficult to defend a perfect pass to very athletic WR's. IMO he'll have a very sound season in his 3rd year to go along with Tarvaris and Ryan Cook. Winfield's situation was very similair in that his coverage was solid but the passes were perfectly fit. I'm exited to have two of most phyical corners in the league who can both cover at the same time. These two should benifit the most from having Allen on the team. Sharper on the other hand was quite often smoked or out of position way to many times. Same goes for Dwight Smith but both guys did make plays for our team, Smith more often than Sharper. I certanly won't be heart broken when Tyrell takes over teamed up with M. Williams.

Cook takes plenty of flack but his progression from year one to year two makes year three even more exiting. If it wern't for McKinnie I would be stoked for Oline, but he's throwing things off with his antics. All in all I believe we have done what it takes to fill in weak spots this offseason. If Tarvaris throws plenty of INT's the first game of the season I think its safe to say he's a weak spot. With his past National Televised perfromances he needs to show he can do it against the Packers.

seaniemck7
06-19-2008, 06:56 PM
"PacNWVike" wrote:


TJack will make or break us this year...


Which is why he will not be our weakest link... seriously.

(Optimism reigns supreme this time of year)

singersp
06-19-2008, 07:43 PM
"seaniemck7" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"KevinK" wrote:


Last year, I felt Sharper was on the top 5 on that list and many people agreed and disagreed with me.
It seems many people do believe that he is overrated, afterall.
Do you think that the rookie(Johnson) could take his starting spot at some point this season?


2 does not equal many.


3


Old Marrdro, Zeus & New Marrdro?

Chazz
06-19-2008, 09:51 PM
Sharper is not even in the same area code as our weakest link. Sharper is a better Safety they Winfield is a corner, and he is not even close to our weakest link. The weakest link doesn't exist on our defense, if you are going to pick one, then Edwards, MM, Griffin, but I like where all these guys are going.

Weakest link from what we know right now....T-Jack, Cook, Mckinnie, and punt returns, in that order. Please God...don't let Wade be our punt returner.

VikingsTw
06-19-2008, 10:01 PM
"Chazz" wrote:


Sharper is not even in the same area code as our weakest link. Sharper is a better Safety they Winfield is a corner, and he is not even close to our weakest link. The weakest link doesn't exist on our defense, if you are going to pick one, then Edwards, MM, Griffin, but I like where all these guys are going.

Weakest link from what we know right now....T-Jack, Cook, Mckinnie, and punt returns, in that order. Please God...don't let Wade be our punt returner.


I'd have to disagree with that one, Sharper is a decent football player but at this stage in his carear he has nothing on Winfield. Granted Winfield din't turn in his best season last year I think very highly of the CB, only because he shows very solid mistake free football nearly every week. The way this guy tackles should tell you something about whats going on mentaly. Winfield is better person/individual than Sharper, through various interviews and comments I've been able to identify things I dislike about Sharper. IMO Childress feels the same way and will be ready to move on without Sharpers services next season garunteed. Enter Tyrell Johnson a perfect example of a Childress guy.

PackSux!
06-19-2008, 10:26 PM
I picked other because honestly i cant decide who could possibly be our weakest link.
I would prefer to see them play this season before picking the weakest link.

i_bleed_purple
06-19-2008, 11:19 PM
"V" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:








I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


Marr,
You know stats mean very little compare to quality of play.

But they are good indicators my friend.

Griff, for all his faults, played within the scheme last year and did everything (on almost every play) that was asked of him by the coaching staff.

Problem here is that people want to compare our CB's to a shut down CB's and it just doesn't equate that way.

They, by design, are supposed to give a cusion on most plays, let the reciever catch the ball and then tackle them as soon as they catch the ball without giving up any huge gains (YAC) in an effort to force the opposing offense to move the ball the length of the field in small chunks.

They are also supposed to have LB's dropping into those passing lanes in an effort to delay the throw or make the QB go to his second read.

Again, the addition of JA should alleviate alot of that stuff this year (in theory/on paper) but they will still give up short gains as it is by design.


but do realize, there is a difference between just not being a shut down corner, and blowing coverage.
Come on Marr.. your should realize this.
now your just arguing for the sake of arguing.


I don't recall many instances where Griffin actually blew a coverage. Most of the time he was covering the receiver well, but wasn't able to make the play that a "shut-down corner" makes.


i do recall him getting faked out on weak moves, playing lazy coverage, giving up passes that he SHOULD knock down.
I'm not expecting him to be an all-pro shutdown corner, but his coverage skills and his on-field work ethic leave lots to be desired.

olson_10
06-19-2008, 11:36 PM
i actually think the metrodome is the weakest link on the vikings

VikingsTw
06-20-2008, 12:15 AM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:










I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


Marr,
You know stats mean very little compare to quality of play.

But they are good indicators my friend.

Griff, for all his faults, played within the scheme last year and did everything (on almost every play) that was asked of him by the coaching staff.

Problem here is that people want to compare our CB's to a shut down CB's and it just doesn't equate that way.

They, by design, are supposed to give a cusion on most plays, let the reciever catch the ball and then tackle them as soon as they catch the ball without giving up any huge gains (YAC) in an effort to force the opposing offense to move the ball the length of the field in small chunks.

They are also supposed to have LB's dropping into those passing lanes in an effort to delay the throw or make the QB go to his second read.

Again, the addition of JA should alleviate alot of that stuff this year (in theory/on paper) but they will still give up short gains as it is by design.


but do realize, there is a difference between just not being a shut down corner, and blowing coverage.
Come on Marr.. your should realize this.
now your just arguing for the sake of arguing.


I don't recall many instances where Griffin actually blew a coverage. Most of the time he was covering the receiver well, but wasn't able to make the play that a "shut-down corner" makes.


i do recall him getting faked out on weak moves, playing lazy coverage, giving up passes that he SHOULD knock down.
I'm not expecting him to be an all-pro shutdown corner, but his coverage skills and his on-field work ethic leave lots to be desired.


I don't know about all that, by lazy what do you mean? Cause Lazy and Cedric Grifin don't equate IMO. Grifin did have had some downs this past year, particulalry in the preseason against the Jets I believe. At that point I was little worried about his newly added weight. Good thing for us he never showed this fatigue and lazyness all year. Many occations during Grifiths carear are very bright, he's made some exelent plays for us and exellent hits. The fact that he did have 92 tackles 10 Passes Defensed and 2 FF should be more than enough to show an adequate season for a first time starter. Entering his 3rd full season should be his brightest yet, I look for alot more of those very close catches to be INT's or batted passes.

IMO there is nothing wrong with Grifin's coverage, but I do think everyone as a whole in our secondary and LB crew would like to tighten things up. So many of the big plays we were inches away from making. Gifin in his third year is really starting to build that inner confidence a CB needs, I believe he's the type to welcome the pass. When drafting Childress tends to avoid players with lazy work ethics.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing Griffin do is changing that silly little celebration he does.

VikingsTw
06-20-2008, 12:35 AM
"olson_10" wrote:


i actually think the metrodome is the weakest link on the vikings


One thing I do like about the Dome is how loud it gets. I expect to hear it at full peak this season. We need to come in big for our guys this year, home field all the way to the SB would be a thing of beauty.

V-Unit
06-20-2008, 01:08 AM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:












I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


Marr,
You know stats mean very little compare to quality of play.

But they are good indicators my friend.

Griff, for all his faults, played within the scheme last year and did everything (on almost every play) that was asked of him by the coaching staff.

Problem here is that people want to compare our CB's to a shut down CB's and it just doesn't equate that way.

They, by design, are supposed to give a cusion on most plays, let the reciever catch the ball and then tackle them as soon as they catch the ball without giving up any huge gains (YAC) in an effort to force the opposing offense to move the ball the length of the field in small chunks.

They are also supposed to have LB's dropping into those passing lanes in an effort to delay the throw or make the QB go to his second read.

Again, the addition of JA should alleviate alot of that stuff this year (in theory/on paper) but they will still give up short gains as it is by design.


but do realize, there is a difference between just not being a shut down corner, and blowing coverage.
Come on Marr.. your should realize this.
now your just arguing for the sake of arguing.


I don't recall many instances where Griffin actually blew a coverage. Most of the time he was covering the receiver well, but wasn't able to make the play that a "shut-down corner" makes.


i do recall him getting faked out on weak moves, playing lazy coverage, giving up passes that he SHOULD knock down.
I'm not expecting him to be an all-pro shutdown corner, but his coverage skills and his on-field work ethic leave lots to be desired.


I don't know about all that, by lazy what do you mean? Cause Lazy and Cedric Grifin don't equate IMO. Grifin did have had some downs this past year, particulalry in the preseason against the Jets I believe. At that point I was little worried about his newly added weight. Good thing for us he never showed this fatigue and lazyness all year. Many occations during Grifiths carear are very bright, he's made some exelent plays for us and exellent hits. The fact that he did have 92 tackles 10 Passes Defensed and 2 FF should be more than enough to show an adequate season for a first time starter. Entering his 3rd full season should be his brightest yet, I look for alot more of those very close catches to be INT's or batted passes.

IMO there is nothing wrong with Grifin's coverage, but I do think everyone as a whole in our secondary and LB crew would like to tighten things up. So many of the big plays we were inches away from making. Gifin in his third year is really starting to build that inner confidence a CB needs, I believe he's the type to welcome the pass. When drafting Childress tends to avoid players with lazy work ethics.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing Griffin do is changing that silly little celebration he does.

His celebration is a classic high-step followed by the Deion "Primetime" Sanders Dance. I love it. It's old school baby.

digital420
06-20-2008, 03:20 AM
if i had to pick 1 player to say.. You are my teams weakest link..

i'd go with Shianco..

it's not an easy call. cause i think it's not just based on talent, but on what they are able to perform in their position in Bchill's sscheme, play in and play out.

I really do think that Shianco's is the weak link and that
makes me feel good as he is a talented TE and should do well esp if his practice work moves on to the playing field.

DiGiTaL

singersp
06-20-2008, 04:35 AM
Darrell Bevel.

digital420
06-20-2008, 04:38 AM
"singersp" wrote:


Darrell Bevel.


ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!



DiGiTaL

Marrdro
06-20-2008, 06:55 AM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:






I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


Marr,
You know stats mean very little compare to quality of play.

But they are good indicators my friend.

Griff, for all his faults, played within the scheme last year and did everything (on almost every play) that was asked of him by the coaching staff.

Problem here is that people want to compare our CB's to a shut down CB's and it just doesn't equate that way.

They, by design, are supposed to give a cusion on most plays, let the reciever catch the ball and then tackle them as soon as they catch the ball without giving up any huge gains (YAC) in an effort to force the opposing offense to move the ball the length of the field in small chunks.

They are also supposed to have LB's dropping into those passing lanes in an effort to delay the throw or make the QB go to his second read.

Again, the addition of JA should alleviate alot of that stuff this year (in theory/on paper) but they will still give up short gains as it is by design.


but do realize, there is a difference between just not being a shut down corner, and blowing coverage.
Come on Marr.. your should realize this.
now your just arguing for the sake of arguing.

I readily admit he had some gaffs my friend but I also say he played some damn good ball.
Seems you on the other hand refuse to admit that point...... :o

Seems I might not be the one that is arguing for the sake of arguing.... ;D

VikingsTw
06-20-2008, 12:14 PM
"V" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:














I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


Marr,
You know stats mean very little compare to quality of play.

But they are good indicators my friend.

Griff, for all his faults, played within the scheme last year and did everything (on almost every play) that was asked of him by the coaching staff.

Problem here is that people want to compare our CB's to a shut down CB's and it just doesn't equate that way.

They, by design, are supposed to give a cusion on most plays, let the reciever catch the ball and then tackle them as soon as they catch the ball without giving up any huge gains (YAC) in an effort to force the opposing offense to move the ball the length of the field in small chunks.

They are also supposed to have LB's dropping into those passing lanes in an effort to delay the throw or make the QB go to his second read.

Again, the addition of JA should alleviate alot of that stuff this year (in theory/on paper) but they will still give up short gains as it is by design.


but do realize, there is a difference between just not being a shut down corner, and blowing coverage.
Come on Marr.. your should realize this.
now your just arguing for the sake of arguing.


I don't recall many instances where Griffin actually blew a coverage. Most of the time he was covering the receiver well, but wasn't able to make the play that a "shut-down corner" makes.


i do recall him getting faked out on weak moves, playing lazy coverage, giving up passes that he SHOULD knock down.
I'm not expecting him to be an all-pro shutdown corner, but his coverage skills and his on-field work ethic leave lots to be desired.


I don't know about all that, by lazy what do you mean? Cause Lazy and Cedric Grifin don't equate IMO. Grifin did have had some downs this past year, particulalry in the preseason against the Jets I believe. At that point I was little worried about his newly added weight. Good thing for us he never showed this fatigue and lazyness all year. Many occations during Grifiths carear are very bright, he's made some exelent plays for us and exellent hits. The fact that he did have 92 tackles 10 Passes Defensed and 2 FF should be more than enough to show an adequate season for a first time starter. Entering his 3rd full season should be his brightest yet, I look for alot more of those very close catches to be INT's or batted passes.

IMO there is nothing wrong with Grifin's coverage, but I do think everyone as a whole in our secondary and LB crew would like to tighten things up. So many of the big plays we were inches away from making. Gifin in his third year is really starting to build that inner confidence a CB needs, I believe he's the type to welcome the pass. When drafting Childress tends to avoid players with lazy work ethics.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing Griffin do is changing that silly little celebration he does.

His celebration is a classic high-step followed by the Deion "Primetime" Sanders Dance. I love it. It's old school baby.


Yeah we're talking about two different celebrations. Not a big deal anyway as long he shows up to play.

Chazz
06-20-2008, 03:52 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"Chazz" wrote:


Sharper is not even in the same area code as our weakest link. Sharper is a better Safety they Winfield is a corner, and he is not even close to our weakest link. The weakest link doesn't exist on our defense, if you are going to pick one, then Edwards, MM, Griffin, but I like where all these guys are going.

Weakest link from what we know right now....T-Jack, Cook, Mckinnie, and punt returns, in that order. Please God...don't let Wade be our punt returner.


I'd have to disagree with that one, Sharper is a decent football player but at this stage in his carear he has nothing on Winfield. Granted Winfield din't turn in his best season last year I think very highly of the CB, only because he shows very solid mistake free football nearly every week. The way this guy tackles should tell you something about whats going on mentaly. Winfield is better person/individual than Sharper, through various interviews and comments I've been able to identify things I dislike about Sharper. IMO Childress feels the same way and will be ready to move on without Sharpers services next season garunteed. Enter Tyrell Johnson a perfect example of a Childress guy.



I like both of them....what I meant by that though is, Sharper is a top ten player at saftey, and Winfield is more middle of the pack of corners.

vikes_4_life_42
06-20-2008, 04:43 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"Chazz" wrote:


Sharper is not even in the same area code as our weakest link. Sharper is a better Safety they Winfield is a corner, and he is not even close to our weakest link. The weakest link doesn't exist on our defense, if you are going to pick one, then Edwards, MM, Griffin, but I like where all these guys are going.

Weakest link from what we know right now....T-Jack, Cook, Mckinnie, and punt returns, in that order. Please God...don't let Wade be our punt returner.


I'd have to disagree with that one, Sharper is a decent football player but at this stage in his carear he has nothing on Winfield. Granted Winfield din't turn in his best season last year I think very highly of the CB, only because he shows very solid mistake free football nearly every week. The way this guy tackles should tell you something about whats going on mentaly. Winfield is better person/individual than Sharper, through various interviews and comments I've been able to identify things I dislike about Sharper. IMO Childress feels the same way and will be ready to move on without Sharpers services next season garunteed. Enter Tyrell Johnson a perfect example of a Childress guy.


I'm one who believes Sharper still has a few solid seasons ahead of him. If you want to compare the two, Sharper is definately better than Winfield. I have nothing against Winfield, in fact, I really like the guy. But realistically, Sharper is better. For one, I'm pretty sure Winfield has missed many more games than Sharper has (I don't know for sure, I only looked back a few seasons). for instance, Winfield missed 6 last year compared to Sharpers 0. And if you want to bring up personality flaws and who Childress likes more, wasn't Winfield the one who had a run in with Childress last year? (and yes, I did read the recent article about how Winfield kept Childress "amused and informed" this offseason, so it's clear they patched things up). Also, wasn't it right around that time last year when Winfield happened to skip the OTA's? I realize they are voluntary, but that doesn't mean they aren't important. In fact, this (http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/sports.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-06-02-0075.html) article praises Sharper's commitment to the team, pointing out that he attends the OTA's, mentors younger players, and meets with coaches. I don't really see how Sharper has character flaws. He just wants to play football. He's competitive. He gives solid, positive interviews. He does tons of charity work. He is commited to his team. He's not out there holding out on his team, or whining about wanting a new contract. He just goes out and plays with everything he has. That being said, I will remind you again that I like both players. I just don't understand what things you don't like about Sharper. I'm not saying he is perfect either, because he isn't. Also, I don't know much about Tyrell Johnson, but what things about him make him more of a "Childress guy" than Sharper?

EDIT: on a side note, neither one of us can really be the judge as to who is the better person, Sharper or Winfield, because neither one of us know them personally. This is all speculation based on what we hear in interviews and such, which doesn't really say who they really are. So to say that Winfield is a better person, whether it's true or not, can't really be proven unless you (or anyone) knows them both.

jmcdon00
06-20-2008, 05:05 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V" wrote:
















I highly doubt Sharper will get benched this year.
True, he may not be as good as he was, but he's still one of the top safeties in the leage.
as for weakest link, that could be tough.
If TJ doesn't make significant improvements, then i would say TJ.
If he does pick up his game, then I think weakest link would fall with Griffin.
That guy can't even stay on top of his own shadow, nevermind an NFL reciever.

Did you take a look at Griffs stats at the end of the season?
Might be an eye opener.


I suppose though if you are trying to compare him to a shut down CB instead of a kid who is in a Cover 2 scheme he would be found lacking a bit.
I don't though.
He is well suited for the scheme we run.


Whenever I can I do this thing where I watch the game instead of just look at the stats.
Griffin constantly looks lost out there, and he plays very lazily.

Even the announcers called him on it one game.
I am not comparing him to shutdown corners, but thats not what this thread is about.
It isn't "who won't be all-pro this year"
It is "Who is our weak link?" and that could very well be Griffin.
Definetally Griffin if you just count defense and ignore Offense.

I hear ya, he did have some off games, but every player does at times.


Truth be told he was 3rd on the team in tackles with 92. Whinny was 4th with 70. Lead the team in PD with 10 and had 2 FF (tied for 3rd).

He was definately not our weakest link last year.


Marr,
You know stats mean very little compare to quality of play.

But they are good indicators my friend.

Griff, for all his faults, played within the scheme last year and did everything (on almost every play) that was asked of him by the coaching staff.

Problem here is that people want to compare our CB's to a shut down CB's and it just doesn't equate that way.

They, by design, are supposed to give a cusion on most plays, let the reciever catch the ball and then tackle them as soon as they catch the ball without giving up any huge gains (YAC) in an effort to force the opposing offense to move the ball the length of the field in small chunks.

They are also supposed to have LB's dropping into those passing lanes in an effort to delay the throw or make the QB go to his second read.

Again, the addition of JA should alleviate alot of that stuff this year (in theory/on paper) but they will still give up short gains as it is by design.


but do realize, there is a difference between just not being a shut down corner, and blowing coverage.
Come on Marr.. your should realize this.
now your just arguing for the sake of arguing.


I don't recall many instances where Griffin actually blew a coverage. Most of the time he was covering the receiver well, but wasn't able to make the play that a "shut-down corner" makes.


i do recall him getting faked out on weak moves, playing lazy coverage, giving up passes that he SHOULD knock down.
I'm not expecting him to be an all-pro shutdown corner, but his coverage skills and his on-field work ethic leave lots to be desired.


I don't know about all that, by lazy what do you mean? Cause Lazy and Cedric Grifin don't equate IMO. Grifin did have had some downs this past year, particulalry in the preseason against the Jets I believe. At that point I was little worried about his newly added weight. Good thing for us he never showed this fatigue and lazyness all year. Many occations during Grifiths carear are very bright, he's made some exelent plays for us and exellent hits. The fact that he did have 92 tackles 10 Passes Defensed and 2 FF should be more than enough to show an adequate season for a first time starter. Entering his 3rd full season should be his brightest yet, I look for alot more of those very close catches to be INT's or batted passes.

IMO there is nothing wrong with Grifin's coverage, but I do think everyone as a whole in our secondary and LB crew would like to tighten things up. So many of the big plays we were inches away from making. Gifin in his third year is really starting to build that inner confidence a CB needs, I believe he's the type to welcome the pass. When drafting Childress tends to avoid players with lazy work ethics.

One thing I wouldn't mind seeing Griffin do is changing that silly little celebration he does.

His celebration is a classic high-step followed by the Deion "Primetime" Sanders Dance. I love it. It's old school baby.


Yeah we're talking about two different celebrations. Not a big deal anyway as long he shows up to play.

It's only a big deal when it causes you to drop the football. ::)

Caine
06-20-2008, 05:55 PM
I can't believe I read over 5 pages of posts where people were trying to convince themselves that the DEFENCE was the weak link...just goes to show how delusional people can get during the offseason.
Too much time to convince themselves of things that aren't true without any factual comparative basis to snap them back to reality....

Well, I think it's probably well over due....


SLAP!!!

Now quit trying to convince yourselves of things that obviously aren't true.
Our Defence was the ONLY consistant element last season.
Sure, the pass D struggled, but a large part of that was our almost complete lack of ability to apply pressure with only the front 4.
We had to blitz to get to the QB, and teams began anticipating the blitz.
Hopefully, Jared Allen will help solve that problem.


The REAL weakness - and it has been for 3 years - has been the Offense.
No Receivers, no QB, spotty line play, and unimaginative play calling have all contributed to the Vikings inability to score with consistancy.
And before you even TRY to dispute that, remove Adrian Peterson from the equation and you'll see what I mean.


Now, the UP side is that the Vikes have brought in some people to address some of those issues.
Berrian should be a good deep threat - forcing Defences back.
And Sydney Rice is developing nicely.
Those two, along with Wade (Who is turing into quite the possession guy) should be able to form a nice receiving nucleus.
Granted, Shiancoe appears to be a bit of a stretch (Too much money, too little production)...but most of us were scratching our heads when they pulled the trigger on that deal anyway.

The line play is still up in the air.
Birk isn't getting younger, McKinnie isn't getting better, and the Right side is still in flux.
Hopefully some of the new blood will make that come together.
If not, we'll be cursing them again this season.

Which brings me to MY selection as the weakest link....Tarvaris Jackson.
I didn't feel he really made much progress as the season wore on.
And, most importantly, I didn't see him really step up and embrace the role he's supposed to play.
In short, I was all for calling it a day on the Jackson experiment last season.
Many have argued with me about this, but I thought his play last season was pretty rotten - all things considered.

But he's had another off season to progress and develope.
Hopefully, he has.
And if his MENTAL game starts to match his physical potential, the kid will be one heck of a solid QB.
So, I'm going to give him a few more games before I make my call on him.


But, again, based entirely on what we KNOW - and not what we wish were true - Jackson is, right now, the weakest link.
Can he step up?
I hope so.


Caine

VikingsTw
06-20-2008, 06:46 PM
"vikes_4_life_42" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"Chazz" wrote:


Sharper is not even in the same area code as our weakest link. Sharper is a better Safety they Winfield is a corner, and he is not even close to our weakest link. The weakest link doesn't exist on our defense, if you are going to pick one, then Edwards, MM, Griffin, but I like where all these guys are going.

Weakest link from what we know right now....T-Jack, Cook, Mckinnie, and punt returns, in that order. Please God...don't let Wade be our punt returner.


I'd have to disagree with that one, Sharper is a decent football player but at this stage in his carear he has nothing on Winfield. Granted Winfield din't turn in his best season last year I think very highly of the CB, only because he shows very solid mistake free football nearly every week. The way this guy tackles should tell you something about whats going on mentaly. Winfield is better person/individual than Sharper, through various interviews and comments I've been able to identify things I dislike about Sharper. IMO Childress feels the same way and will be ready to move on without Sharpers services next season garunteed. Enter Tyrell Johnson a perfect example of a Childress guy.


I'm one who believes Sharper still has a few solid seasons ahead of him. If you want to compare the two, Sharper is definately better than Winfield. I have nothing against Winfield, in fact, I really like the guy. But realistically, Sharper is better. For one, I'm pretty sure Winfield has missed many more games than Sharper has (I don't know for sure, I only looked back a few seasons). for instance, Winfield missed 6 last year compared to Sharpers 0. And if you want to bring up personality flaws and who Childress likes more, wasn't Winfield the one who had a run in with Childress last year? (and yes, I did read the recent article about how Winfield kept Childress "amused and informed" this offseason, so it's clear they patched things up). Also, wasn't it right around that time last year when Winfield happened to skip the OTA's? I realize they are voluntary, but that doesn't mean they aren't important. In fact, this (http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/sports.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-06-02-0075.html) article praises Sharper's commitment to the team, pointing out that he attends the OTA's, mentors younger players, and meets with coaches. I don't really see how Sharper has character flaws. He just wants to play football. He's competitive. He gives solid, positive interviews. He does tons of charity work. He is commited to his team. He's not out there holding out on his team, or whining about wanting a new contract. He just goes out and plays with everything he has. That being said, I will remind you again that I like both players. I just don't understand what things you don't like about Sharper. I'm not saying he is perfect either, because he isn't. Also, I don't know much about Tyrell Johnson, but what things about him make him more of a "Childress guy" than Sharper?

EDIT: on a side note, neither one of us can really be the judge as to who is the better person, Sharper or Winfield, because neither one of us know them personally. This is all speculation based on what we hear in interviews and such, which doesn't really say who they really are. So to say that Winfield is a better person, whether it's true or not, can't really be proven unless you (or anyone) knows them both.


First off I would like to say that I was unhappy with Winfield's overall perfromance last year, from skipping mini camps to being injured 6 games. I still believe that when Winfield was playing he played better and had more of impact for the team. He tackles better then Sharper, he's faster, quicker and has better man to man cover skills. I can understand why Winfield held out he's 30 years old he's never really been on a winning team, he's always been comitted to whatever team he's played for. He may have had some bumps in the road with Childress but If you did more research you would find that they probably have one of the better player coach relationships on the team.

I'm not gonna go into depth about how I dislike some of the things that Sharper says but I will tell you that he does an extremely good job of covering up the little things with postive attitude and smiles like you said he creates quite the illusion but I can see through it. I do believe he is a solid teamate and his play has been solid for us. In the end I believe we can move on in order to improve that position, I believe we drafted a future Pro Bowl stud in Tyrell Johnson.

For the record everything you said about Sharper is that of Winfield and then some IMO. Winfield never held out because he was whining for a contract, that would be Matt Birk. Its hard for me to explain what I see in Sharper but he's a media guy for one, and #2 when I watched his interviews on NFLN the other day I noticed all he really did was talk down to people, for instance the girl in the cafetria. Why say those things? Was he trying to embarass her or talk down to her? Did he feel like he had power over her? Either way he will be moving on, I've got a really good feeling about this.

In order to understand more about Tyrell Johnson I will bring you back to draft day. I think this sums up a perfect example of Childress guy and why he was #17 on the overall board.
http://www.purplepride.org/forums/index.php?topic=44456.0

I agree its difficult to judge players unless you know them personally but I follow this team well, maybe to well. I know of Sharper and I know what he's all about, same with Winfield. I believe I've been able to determine the better individual but of course this is opinoin and up for objection.

VikingsTw
06-20-2008, 07:07 PM
"Caine" wrote:


I can't believe I read over 5 pages of posts where people were trying to convince themselves that the DEFENCE was the weak link...just goes to show how delusional people can get during the offseason.
Too much time to convince themselves of things that aren't true without any factual comparative basis to snap them back to reality....

Well, I think it's probably well over due....


SLAP!!!

Now quit trying to convince yourselves of things that obviously aren't true.
Our Defence was the ONLY consistant element last season.
Sure, the pass D struggled, but a large part of that was our almost complete lack of ability to apply pressure with only the front 4.
We had to blitz to get to the QB, and teams began anticipating the blitz.
Hopefully, Jared Allen will help solve that problem.


The REAL weakness - and it has been for 3 years - has been the Offense.
No Receivers, no QB, spotty line play, and unimaginative play calling have all contributed to the Vikings inability to score with consistancy.
And before you even TRY to dispute that, remove Adrian Peterson from the equation and you'll see what I mean.


Now, the UP side is that the Vikes have brought in some people to address some of those issues.
Berrian should be a good deep threat - forcing Defences back.
And Sydney Rice is developing nicely.
Those two, along with Wade (Who is turing into quite the possession guy) should be able to form a nice receiving nucleus.
Granted, Shiancoe appears to be a bit of a stretch (Too much money, too little production)...but most of us were scratching our heads when they pulled the trigger on that deal anyway.

The line play is still up in the air.
Birk isn't getting younger, McKinnie isn't getting better, and the Right side is still in flux.
Hopefully some of the new blood will make that come together.
If not, we'll be cursing them again this season.

Which brings me to MY selection as the weakest link....Tarvaris Jackson.
I didn't feel he really made much progress as the season wore on.
And, most importantly, I didn't see him really step up and embrace the role he's supposed to play.
In short, I was all for calling it a day on the Jackson experiment last season.
Many have argued with me about this, but I thought his play last season was pretty rotten - all things considered.

But he's had another off season to progress and develope.
Hopefully, he has.
And if his MENTAL game starts to match his physical potential, the kid will be one heck of a solid QB.
So, I'm going to give him a few more games before I make my call on him.


But, again, based entirely on what we KNOW - and not what we wish were true - Jackson is, right now, the weakest link.
Can he step up?
I hope so.


Caine


Good post Caine untill the part about Tarvaris not making any improvement. IMO this has been proved on this site, granted numbers arn't always the most accurate arguement I would have to agree there was substantal difference from the first 8 Weeks to the last 8 Weeks. Particularly the QB rating, TD's and INT's. I think its safe to say Tarvaris did exactly what the coaching staff asked him to do, really it wasn't a good idea for him to try to be hero, but the last game of the season was a good example of Tarvaris stepping up into that role in a pressure situation. I thought that was very exiting but we had a few guys who proabably overshadowed his best performance.

Tarvaris did have some rotten play last season but I believe it was mixed with flashes of solid play. I was considering throwing the towl in on Tarvaris at one point last season but this was very early, I was also frustrated with loosing. As the season grew Tarvaris did better, he bounced back after a horrid game showing the composure that is needed. Overall I was happy he was able to complete a 8-4 record as starter and most games he did a very good job of managing and protecting the football. The majority of his turnovers came in big bunches, I expected these types of things with such a raw inexperienced player.

In the end I think its a good decision to give him more oportunity, especailly given his age/experience and the actuall situations he's been pluged into. IMO Tarvaris will eventually get a contract extension and remain with our team. I think its important we continue to bring in weapons for him and do whatever it takes to up our game in pass protection, wether he's QB or next guy in Line. Tarvaris has a future because he has the work ethic, poise and comitment. In the end Hard Work and Perseverense always pay off.

purplepowered
06-27-2008, 09:33 PM
McKinney is overrated
I still like sharper,
At least he wasnt in on the love boat. I cannot wait til we find McKinneys replacement he is not only trouble he is only good when he needs a contract update. HE is our weak link and if he is suspended hopefully we will find his replaceement faster!

Purple Floyd
06-28-2008, 09:33 AM
"Caine" wrote:


I can't believe I read over 5 pages of posts where people were trying to convince themselves that the DEFENCE was the weak link...just goes to show how delusional people can get during the offseason.
Too much time to convince themselves of things that aren't true without any factual comparative basis to snap them back to reality....

Well, I think it's probably well over due....


SLAP!!!

Now quit trying to convince yourselves of things that obviously aren't true.
Our Defence was the ONLY consistant element last season.
Sure, the pass D struggled, but a large part of that was our almost complete lack of ability to apply pressure with only the front 4.
We had to blitz to get to the QB, and teams began anticipating the blitz.
Hopefully, Jared Allen will help solve that problem.


The REAL weakness - and it has been for 3 years - has been the Offense.
No Receivers, no QB, spotty line play, and unimaginative play calling have all contributed to the Vikings inability to score with consistancy.
And before you even TRY to dispute that, remove Adrian Peterson from the equation and you'll see what I mean.


Now, the UP side is that the Vikes have brought in some people to address some of those issues.
Berrian should be a good deep threat - forcing Defences back.
And Sydney Rice is developing nicely.
Those two, along with Wade (Who is turing into quite the possession guy) should be able to form a nice receiving nucleus.
Granted, Shiancoe appears to be a bit of a stretch (Too much money, too little production)...but most of us were scratching our heads when they pulled the trigger on that deal anyway.

The line play is still up in the air.
Birk isn't getting younger, McKinnie isn't getting better, and the Right side is still in flux.
Hopefully some of the new blood will make that come together.
If not, we'll be cursing them again this season.

Which brings me to MY selection as the weakest link....Tarvaris Jackson.
I didn't feel he really made much progress as the season wore on.
And, most importantly, I didn't see him really step up and embrace the role he's supposed to play.
In short, I was all for calling it a day on the Jackson experiment last season.
Many have argued with me about this, but I thought his play last season was pretty rotten - all things considered.

But he's had another off season to progress and develope.
Hopefully, he has.
And if his MENTAL game starts to match his physical potential, the kid will be one heck of a solid QB.
So, I'm going to give him a few more games before I make my call on him.


But, again, based entirely on what we KNOW - and not what we wish were true - Jackson is, right now, the weakest link.
Can he step up?
I hope so.


Caine


Well stated.

V-Unit
06-28-2008, 10:08 AM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"vikes_4_life_42" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"Chazz" wrote:


Sharper is not even in the same area code as our weakest link. Sharper is a better Safety they Winfield is a corner, and he is not even close to our weakest link. The weakest link doesn't exist on our defense, if you are going to pick one, then Edwards, MM, Griffin, but I like where all these guys are going.

Weakest link from what we know right now....T-Jack, Cook, Mckinnie, and punt returns, in that order. Please God...don't let Wade be our punt returner.


I'd have to disagree with that one, Sharper is a decent football player but at this stage in his carear he has nothing on Winfield. Granted Winfield din't turn in his best season last year I think very highly of the CB, only because he shows very solid mistake free football nearly every week. The way this guy tackles should tell you something about whats going on mentaly. Winfield is better person/individual than Sharper, through various interviews and comments I've been able to identify things I dislike about Sharper. IMO Childress feels the same way and will be ready to move on without Sharpers services next season garunteed. Enter Tyrell Johnson a perfect example of a Childress guy.


I'm one who believes Sharper still has a few solid seasons ahead of him. If you want to compare the two, Sharper is definately better than Winfield. I have nothing against Winfield, in fact, I really like the guy. But realistically, Sharper is better. For one, I'm pretty sure Winfield has missed many more games than Sharper has (I don't know for sure, I only looked back a few seasons). for instance, Winfield missed 6 last year compared to Sharpers 0. And if you want to bring up personality flaws and who Childress likes more, wasn't Winfield the one who had a run in with Childress last year? (and yes, I did read the recent article about how Winfield kept Childress "amused and informed" this offseason, so it's clear they patched things up). Also, wasn't it right around that time last year when Winfield happened to skip the OTA's? I realize they are voluntary, but that doesn't mean they aren't important. In fact, this (http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/sports.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-06-02-0075.html) article praises Sharper's commitment to the team, pointing out that he attends the OTA's, mentors younger players, and meets with coaches. I don't really see how Sharper has character flaws. He just wants to play football. He's competitive. He gives solid, positive interviews. He does tons of charity work. He is commited to his team. He's not out there holding out on his team, or whining about wanting a new contract. He just goes out and plays with everything he has. That being said, I will remind you again that I like both players. I just don't understand what things you don't like about Sharper. I'm not saying he is perfect either, because he isn't. Also, I don't know much about Tyrell Johnson, but what things about him make him more of a "Childress guy" than Sharper?

EDIT: on a side note, neither one of us can really be the judge as to who is the better person, Sharper or Winfield, because neither one of us know them personally. This is all speculation based on what we hear in interviews and such, which doesn't really say who they really are. So to say that Winfield is a better person, whether it's true or not, can't really be proven unless you (or anyone) knows them both.


First off I would like to say that I was unhappy with Winfield's overall perfromance last year, from skipping mini camps to being injured 6 games. I still believe that when Winfield was playing he played better and had more of impact for the team. He tackles better then Sharper, he's faster, quicker and has better man to man cover skills. I can understand why Winfield held out he's 30 years old he's never really been on a winning team, he's always been comitted to whatever team he's played for. He may have had some bumps in the road with Childress but If you did more research you would find that they probably have one of the better player coach relationships on the team.

I'm not gonna go into depth about how I dislike some of the things that Sharper says but I will tell you that he does an extremely good job of covering up the little things with postive attitude and smiles like you said he creates quite the illusion but I can see through it. I do believe he is a solid teamate and his play has been solid for us. In the end I believe we can move on in order to improve that position, I believe we drafted a future Pro Bowl stud in Tyrell Johnson.

For the record everything you said about Sharper is that of Winfield and then some IMO. Winfield never held out because he was whining for a contract, that would be Matt Birk. Its hard for me to explain what I see in Sharper but he's a media guy for one, and #2 when I watched his interviews on NFLN the other day I noticed all he really did was talk down to people, for instance the girl in the cafetria. Why say those things? Was he trying to embarass her or talk down to her? Did he feel like he had power over her? Either way he will be moving on, I've got a really good feeling about this.

In order to understand more about Tyrell Johnson I will bring you back to draft day. I think this sums up a perfect example of Childress guy and why he was #17 on the overall board.
http://www.purplepride.org/forums/index.php?topic=44456.0

I agree its difficult to judge players unless you know them personally but I follow this team well, maybe to well. I know of Sharper and I know what he's all about, same with Winfield. I believe I've been able to determine the better individual but of course this is opinoin and up for objection.


You honestly classify what Matt Birk did as a holdout?

Mr Anderson
06-28-2008, 10:27 AM
Cook - Maybe
Hererra - No.
Jackson - Hmm, very possible, he has a lot to prove, but has done nothing to really show he's a weak link. He now has the receivers to do his job, let's see him step up to the plate and really deliver this season.
The #2 Corner Spot - Has this been mentioned? Personally I think we'll be fine there with a good pass rush, but I know someone must think otherwise.
Greenway - Is he up to speed? Will we see more rookie mistakes?
McKinnie - Suspension looming, shaky play.
Birk - Over the hill? Injuries. Unhappy?
Defensive line - Looks good
8)

I find myself really not questioning our receivers anymore, I think so long as Jackson puts the ball where it needs to be, they are going to do their job, and do it very well. Expect one of our receivers to become tremendously overrated after this season because of our running game opening it up for them.


As far as the team goes, I think that covers everything we really need to be worried about, and it's not very much.


I am so damn excited for this NFL season.

All I need to do now is find a bar at school with Sunday ticket, get a fake ID, and I'll be set for this season.

Purple Floyd
06-28-2008, 12:26 PM
I will go ahead and say the coaching staff.

For the last 2 seasons we have had the talent to win more games than we did. This year we have the talent to win playoff games. The coaching staff has to do a better plan of reacting to the changes in the game and capitalizing on them and in putting the players in the best position to succeed. Hopefully they have all of the guys they need now to do what they want, and if they don't, hopefully they have grown to the point they can mask some of the shortcomings with exceptional production in other areas.

SharperImage
06-28-2008, 01:01 PM
Our Weakest link isnt a person on our team cause all of them can play. Our weakest link is the Mental state of the playesr during game time. They all have the ability to be good. its just decision making skills, confidents, and teamwork. if all our players give 100% effort in those 3 areas we can go 16-0

gagarr
06-28-2008, 01:43 PM
Given another year of experience for the young players (less than 2 year starters) TJ, Greenway, Rice, AD, Griffin, Gordon, McCauley, Allison, Cook, Robinson they should all come in stronger.

Given the addition of quality players to fill some of last years weak spots (Allen, BB, Madieu)

There is always a weak link on the team, but IMO every spot on the team is stronger, whether the link itself or the combination (CB + Pass rush, QB + better receivers, play calling + ability to execute, D and O giving each favorable field position) of links.

If this team is going to be strong then each link needs to work together.

There will be days:
that Griffin will be going against elite WR's thus safeties and the DL need to step up to help.
If not, does it make Griffin the weak link, the DL for not putting on a pass rush, or safeties for not helping?

TJ can't block a pass rush and run a crisp route, while also reading D's, audible, drop back, go through progressions, make a decision, and throw the ball.
TJ can look like a weak link if not given enough time or have an open receiver.

AD looked like a WEAK link in the Washington (27 yards) and Denver (36 yards) game, is he?
No!
He just wasn't getting the support from the rest of the team, be it the passing game, play calling, or run blocking.

Anyone on the team can look like a weak link given the situation, the thing is the Vikes have strengthened key links which strengthens ALL other links.

VikingsTw
06-28-2008, 06:13 PM
"V" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"vikes_4_life_42" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"Chazz" wrote:


Sharper is not even in the same area code as our weakest link. Sharper is a better Safety they Winfield is a corner, and he is not even close to our weakest link. The weakest link doesn't exist on our defense, if you are going to pick one, then Edwards, MM, Griffin, but I like where all these guys are going.

Weakest link from what we know right now....T-Jack, Cook, Mckinnie, and punt returns, in that order. Please God...don't let Wade be our punt returner.


I'd have to disagree with that one, Sharper is a decent football player but at this stage in his carear he has nothing on Winfield. Granted Winfield din't turn in his best season last year I think very highly of the CB, only because he shows very solid mistake free football nearly every week. The way this guy tackles should tell you something about whats going on mentaly. Winfield is better person/individual than Sharper, through various interviews and comments I've been able to identify things I dislike about Sharper. IMO Childress feels the same way and will be ready to move on without Sharpers services next season garunteed. Enter Tyrell Johnson a perfect example of a Childress guy.


I'm one who believes Sharper still has a few solid seasons ahead of him. If you want to compare the two, Sharper is definately better than Winfield. I have nothing against Winfield, in fact, I really like the guy. But realistically, Sharper is better. For one, I'm pretty sure Winfield has missed many more games than Sharper has (I don't know for sure, I only looked back a few seasons). for instance, Winfield missed 6 last year compared to Sharpers 0. And if you want to bring up personality flaws and who Childress likes more, wasn't Winfield the one who had a run in with Childress last year? (and yes, I did read the recent article about how Winfield kept Childress "amused and informed" this offseason, so it's clear they patched things up). Also, wasn't it right around that time last year when Winfield happened to skip the OTA's? I realize they are voluntary, but that doesn't mean they aren't important. In fact, this (http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/sports.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-06-02-0075.html) article praises Sharper's commitment to the team, pointing out that he attends the OTA's, mentors younger players, and meets with coaches. I don't really see how Sharper has character flaws. He just wants to play football. He's competitive. He gives solid, positive interviews. He does tons of charity work. He is commited to his team. He's not out there holding out on his team, or whining about wanting a new contract. He just goes out and plays with everything he has. That being said, I will remind you again that I like both players. I just don't understand what things you don't like about Sharper. I'm not saying he is perfect either, because he isn't. Also, I don't know much about Tyrell Johnson, but what things about him make him more of a "Childress guy" than Sharper?

EDIT: on a side note, neither one of us can really be the judge as to who is the better person, Sharper or Winfield, because neither one of us know them personally. This is all speculation based on what we hear in interviews and such, which doesn't really say who they really are. So to say that Winfield is a better person, whether it's true or not, can't really be proven unless you (or anyone) knows them both.


First off I would like to say that I was unhappy with Winfield's overall perfromance last year, from skipping mini camps to being injured 6 games. I still believe that when Winfield was playing he played better and had more of impact for the team. He tackles better then Sharper, he's faster, quicker and has better man to man cover skills. I can understand why Winfield held out he's 30 years old he's never really been on a winning team, he's always been comitted to whatever team he's played for. He may have had some bumps in the road with Childress but If you did more research you would find that they probably have one of the better player coach relationships on the team.

I'm not gonna go into depth about how I dislike some of the things that Sharper says but I will tell you that he does an extremely good job of covering up the little things with postive attitude and smiles like you said he creates quite the illusion but I can see through it. I do believe he is a solid teamate and his play has been solid for us. In the end I believe we can move on in order to improve that position, I believe we drafted a future Pro Bowl stud in Tyrell Johnson.

For the record everything you said about Sharper is that of Winfield and then some IMO. Winfield never held out because he was whining for a contract, that would be Matt Birk. Its hard for me to explain what I see in Sharper but he's a media guy for one, and #2 when I watched his interviews on NFLN the other day I noticed all he really did was talk down to people, for instance the girl in the cafetria. Why say those things? Was he trying to embarass her or talk down to her? Did he feel like he had power over her? Either way he will be moving on, I've got a really good feeling about this.

In order to understand more about Tyrell Johnson I will bring you back to draft day. I think this sums up a perfect example of Childress guy and why he was #17 on the overall board.
http://www.purplepride.org/forums/index.php?topic=44456.0

I agree its difficult to judge players unless you know them personally but I follow this team well, maybe to well. I know of Sharper and I know what he's all about, same with Winfield. I believe I've been able to determine the better individual but of course this is opinoin and up for objection.


You honestly classify what Matt Birk did as a holdout?


After listening to Birk's comments and interviews when he came back I got the feeling he was more upset that he wouldn't be remaining with the team. I can understand this easily, he's from Minnesota, played here for his entire carear and he's smart enough to know that the Orgazation is heading into a very good era. Had Matt Birk been resigned he would have been at the doorstep of OTA's and the Offseason Workout Programs because thats what would have been asked of him.

Did Matt Birk holding out do any favors for his future with the Vikings? I wouldn't think so, particulary because Childress has the control.

I would classify Matt Birk as a holdout from team when there was current activities taking place and he was the only one absent for exept maybe CT. Who is AP's backup. Where as Matt Birk is the starter and a so called Leader.

It kinda makes me wonder if the news has already been dilivered.

marstc09
06-29-2008, 01:49 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"Zeus" wrote:


Sharper.

=Z=

+1
;D


No way in hell that a pro bowler is our weakest link.

marstc09
06-29-2008, 01:52 PM
"pack93z" wrote:


At this very moment.. Offensive Tackles.. questions surround your starting left tackle off the field and some questions on the field. At right tackle.. we shall see if Cook can shore up some or another can take his place.

Not far behind is the play of your CB's.. in my unbiased opinion.


I will ask you about them after this season. You will see a different group. They are underrated. Watch and see!

marstc09
06-29-2008, 01:58 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"pack93z" wrote:


At this very moment.. Offensive Tackles.. questions surround your starting left tackle off the field and some questions on the field. At right tackle.. we shall see if Cook can shore up some or another can take his place.

Not far behind is the play of your CB's.. in my unbiased opinion.

Again, another fan that is judging our CB play based on "Shut Down" corner rational instead of the "Cover 2" scheme.

;D

The addition of a pass rush from the edge will make all of you see that our CB's are actually good for the scheme.

Sure they will still let guys catch the ball in front of them, but that is by design.
Its what they do after the ball is caught that makes them good.
Take a look at Griffs numbers.
His tackles were up there pretty high and he didn't let many get out of his grip for large gains.

Talk shut down corner with a team that runs a Press/Man coverage scheme my friend.
;D


Will they ever learn Marr? They will be eating crow soon. I am not worried about our pass D one bit this year or our defense at all for that matter.

marstc09
06-29-2008, 02:14 PM
"olson_10" wrote:


i actually think the metrodome is the weakest link on the vikings


Have you been in the dome during 3rd downs?
:P

marstc09
06-29-2008, 02:16 PM
"singersp" wrote:


Darrell Bevel.


Might be true.

marstc09
06-29-2008, 02:32 PM
I want to say Shank. Way too much money and I am not sure he is a good pass catching tight end. Might be a spot for a #1 pick next year in the draft but we will see what he does this year. TJs play makes the biggest impact on the team but I would not be so quick to call him the weakest. I think our weakest link is Cook. I think he made progress last year but until he can prove that he can be an elite starter, there is room for an upgrade.

ThePurp
06-29-2008, 02:42 PM
TJax is easily our weakest link, he needs to start beating 8 in the box because teams will force TJax to beat them.
Fortunately, the Vikes will be stout on defense and will be conservative to keep the pressure off the kid.
But there's going to be many times where he'll be needed to win the game.
A BMac suspension or poor play from Cook will compound our QB problem.
Even if out tackles were All Pros, I don't think TJax would easily have success.

V-Unit
06-29-2008, 10:33 PM
Wow. Six straight posts by one guy.

Post Count Whore!

singersp
06-29-2008, 10:53 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


I want to say Shank. Way too much money and I am not sure he is a good pass catching tight end. Might be a spot for a #1 pick next year in the draft but we will see what he does this year. TJs play makes the biggest impact on the team but I would not be so quick to call him the weakest. I think our weakest link is Cook. I think he made progress last year but until he can prove that he can be an elite starter, there is room for an upgrade.


Money has nothing to do with it. Throwing more money at a player isn't going to make him better, nor should fans increase their expectations of a player simply because a team over paid him.

Are people expecting Jared Allen to get 30+ sacks or better just because we gave up three picks for him?

I certainly hope not.

Yet they put higher expectations on Shank, Smoot & Walker for no other reason than what we gave up for them.

With that said, I expect those people who call those players along with Hovan busts, to call Allen a bust if he doesn't get near 20 sacks.

Hell, they called Hovan a bust when he got 9 sacks. A feat no Viking has accomplished since Hovan left. And that was playing nose tackle!

marstc09
06-29-2008, 11:00 PM
"V" wrote:


Wow. Six straight posts by one guy.

Post Count Whore!


It is called reading a whole thread and responding.

Maybe some people should try it more.

marstc09
06-29-2008, 11:02 PM
"singersp" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


I want to say Shank. Way too much money and I am not sure he is a good pass catching tight end. Might be a spot for a #1 pick next year in the draft but we will see what he does this year. TJs play makes the biggest impact on the team but I would not be so quick to call him the weakest. I think our weakest link is Cook. I think he made progress last year but until he can prove that he can be an elite starter, there is room for an upgrade.


Money has nothing to do with it. Throwing more money at a player isn't going to make him better, nor should fans increase their expectations of a player simply because a team over paid him.

Are people expecting Jared Allen to get 30+ sacks or better just because we gave up three picks for him?

I certainly hope not.

Yet they put higher expectations on Shank, Smoot & Walker for no other reason than what we gave up for them.

With that said, I expect those people who call those players along with Hovan busts, to call Allen a bust if he doesn't get near 20 sacks.

Hell, they called Hovan a bust when he got 9 sacks. A feat no Viking has accomplished since Hovan left. And that was playing nose tackle!


Money has everything to do with it. I'd rather of saved it and used it on picking up Shockey.

BTW who is calling Shank a bust?

Edit: I like Shank but to give him that money was probably not the best of ideas. Allen is a proven player that should get that kind of money.

singersp
06-29-2008, 11:04 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


"V" wrote:


Wow. Six straight posts by one guy.

Post Count Whore!


It is called reading a whole thread and responding.

Maybe some people should try it more.


Some people just read the last post or two & respond to it, missing a lot of good info prior to them.

Myself, I usually read the thread like Mars & respond to every post I see fit before going to another thread. Ergo, it's quite common to have multiple posts in a row responding to different posters. Especially if you haven't been to PP.o for a few days.

singersp
06-29-2008, 11:10 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


I want to say Shank. Way too much money and I am not sure he is a good pass catching tight end. Might be a spot for a #1 pick next year in the draft but we will see what he does this year. TJs play makes the biggest impact on the team but I would not be so quick to call him the weakest. I think our weakest link is Cook. I think he made progress last year but until he can prove that he can be an elite starter, there is room for an upgrade.


Money has nothing to do with it. Throwing more money at a player isn't going to make him better, nor should fans increase their expectations of a player simply because a team over paid him.

Are people expecting Jared Allen to get 30+ sacks or better just because we gave up three picks for him?

I certainly hope not.

Yet they put higher expectations on Shank, Smoot & Walker for no other reason than what we gave up for them.

With that said, I expect those people who call those players along with Hovan busts, to call Allen a bust if he doesn't get near 20 sacks.

Hell, they called Hovan a bust when he got 9 sacks. A feat no Viking has accomplished since Hovan left. And that was playing nose tackle!


Money has everything to do with it. I'd rather of saved it and used it on picking up Shockey.

BTW who is calling Shank a bust?


There are members here calling him that. I'd have to go thread dredging to find out, but I'm not going to do that now.

Again money still has nothing to do with it. If they had paid Shank half of what he is getting paid, would you still call him the weakest link?

The weakest link has to do with on field performance, not how much they are getting paid. Paying him less or more isn't going to change the amount of passes he catches or how well he catches them.

marstc09
06-29-2008, 11:14 PM
"singersp" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


I want to say Shank. Way too much money and I am not sure he is a good pass catching tight end. Might be a spot for a #1 pick next year in the draft but we will see what he does this year. TJs play makes the biggest impact on the team but I would not be so quick to call him the weakest. I think our weakest link is Cook. I think he made progress last year but until he can prove that he can be an elite starter, there is room for an upgrade.


Money has nothing to do with it. Throwing more money at a player isn't going to make him better, nor should fans increase their expectations of a player simply because a team over paid him.

Are people expecting Jared Allen to get 30+ sacks or better just because we gave up three picks for him?

I certainly hope not.

Yet they put higher expectations on Shank, Smoot & Walker for no other reason than what we gave up for them.

With that said, I expect those people who call those players along with Hovan busts, to call Allen a bust if he doesn't get near 20 sacks.

Hell, they called Hovan a bust when he got 9 sacks. A feat no Viking has accomplished since Hovan left. And that was playing nose tackle!


Money has everything to do with it. I'd rather of saved it and used it on picking up Shockey.

BTW who is calling Shank a bust?


There are members here calling him that. I'd have to go thread dredging to find out, but I'm not going to do that now.

Again money still has nothing to do with it. If they had paid Shank half of what he is getting paid, would you still call him the weakest link?

The weakest link has to do with on field performance, not how much they are getting paid. Paying him less or more isn't going to change the amount of passes he catches or how well he catches them.


Sorry I thought you meant me.

I did not say he was the weakest link. I picked Cook.

I agree with your last statement but he still should not be paid that money until he is proven.

singersp
06-29-2008, 11:20 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


I want to say Shank. Way too much money and I am not sure he is a good pass catching tight end. Might be a spot for a #1 pick next year in the draft but we will see what he does this year. TJs play makes the biggest impact on the team but I would not be so quick to call him the weakest. I think our weakest link is Cook. I think he made progress last year but until he can prove that he can be an elite starter, there is room for an upgrade.


Money has nothing to do with it. Throwing more money at a player isn't going to make him better, nor should fans increase their expectations of a player simply because a team over paid him.

Are people expecting Jared Allen to get 30+ sacks or better just because we gave up three picks for him?

I certainly hope not.

Yet they put higher expectations on Shank, Smoot & Walker for no other reason than what we gave up for them.

With that said, I expect those people who call those players along with Hovan busts, to call Allen a bust if he doesn't get near 20 sacks.

Hell, they called Hovan a bust when he got 9 sacks. A feat no Viking has accomplished since Hovan left. And that was playing nose tackle!


Money has everything to do with it. I'd rather of saved it and used it on picking up Shockey.

BTW who is calling Shank a bust?


There are members here calling him that. I'd have to go thread dredging to find out, but I'm not going to do that now.

Again money still has nothing to do with it. If they had paid Shank half of what he is getting paid, would you still call him the weakest link?

The weakest link has to do with on field performance, not how much they are getting paid. Paying him less or more isn't going to change the amount of passes he catches or how well he catches them.


Sorry I thought you meant me.

I did not say he was the weakest link. I picked Cook.

I agree with your last statement but he still should not be paid that money until he is proven.


But you wanted to say Shank.
:P

The only reason Shank got paid the kind of money he did was because of the slim TE market in FA.

Supply & demand.

marstc09
06-29-2008, 11:23 PM
"singersp" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:




I want to say Shank. Way too much money and I am not sure he is a good pass catching tight end. Might be a spot for a #1 pick next year in the draft but we will see what he does this year. TJs play makes the biggest impact on the team but I would not be so quick to call him the weakest. I think our weakest link is Cook. I think he made progress last year but until he can prove that he can be an elite starter, there is room for an upgrade.


Money has nothing to do with it. Throwing more money at a player isn't going to make him better, nor should fans increase their expectations of a player simply because a team over paid him.

Are people expecting Jared Allen to get 30+ sacks or better just because we gave up three picks for him?

I certainly hope not.

Yet they put higher expectations on Shank, Smoot & Walker for no other reason than what we gave up for them.

With that said, I expect those people who call those players along with Hovan busts, to call Allen a bust if he doesn't get near 20 sacks.

Hell, they called Hovan a bust when he got 9 sacks. A feat no Viking has accomplished since Hovan left. And that was playing nose tackle!


Money has everything to do with it. I'd rather of saved it and used it on picking up Shockey.

BTW who is calling Shank a bust?


There are members here calling him that. I'd have to go thread dredging to find out, but I'm not going to do that now.

Again money still has nothing to do with it. If they had paid Shank half of what he is getting paid, would you still call him the weakest link?

The weakest link has to do with on field performance, not how much they are getting paid. Paying him less or more isn't going to change the amount of passes he catches or how well he catches them.


Sorry I thought you meant me.

I did not say he was the weakest link. I picked Cook.

I agree with your last statement but he still should not be paid that money until he is proven.


But you wanted to say Shank.
:P

The only reason Shank got paid the kind of money he did was because of the slim TE market in FA.

Supply & demand.


LOL very true.

I just hope after this year I am not demanding that we get rid of his slow ass.

Marrdro
06-30-2008, 08:06 AM
"singersp" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"V" wrote:


Wow. Six straight posts by one guy.

Post Count Whore!


It is called reading a whole thread and responding.

Maybe some people should try it more.


Some people just read the last post or two & respond to it, missing a lot of good info prior to them.

Myself, I usually read the thread like Mars & respond to every post I see fit before going to another thread. Ergo, it's quite common to have multiple posts in a row responding to different posters. Especially if you haven't been to PP.o for a few days.

Whew, I was beginning to think I was wierd for doing that.
;D

V-Unit
06-30-2008, 08:24 AM
"singersp" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"V" wrote:


Wow. Six straight posts by one guy.

Post Count Whore!


It is called reading a whole thread and responding.

Maybe some people should try it more.


Some people just read the last post or two & respond to it, missing a lot of good info prior to them.

Myself, I usually read the thread like Mars & respond to every post I see fit before going to another thread. Ergo, it's quite common to have multiple posts in a row responding to different posters. Especially if you haven't been to PP.o for a few days.


I can't even make a joke anymore. This board is going to shit.

Maybe its just the offseason.

Zeus
06-30-2008, 09:21 AM
"V" wrote:


"singersp" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"V" wrote:


Wow. Six straight posts by one guy.

Post Count Whore!


It is called reading a whole thread and responding.

Maybe some people should try it more.


Some people just read the last post or two & respond to it, missing a lot of good info prior to them.

Myself, I usually read the thread like Mars & respond to every post I see fit before going to another thread. Ergo, it's quite common to have multiple posts in a row responding to different posters. Especially if you haven't been to PP.o for a few days.


I can't even make a joke anymore. This board is going to shit.

Maybe its just the offseason.


The sky is falling, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

=Z=

Caine
06-30-2008, 10:20 AM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"Caine" wrote:


I can't believe I read over 5 pages of posts where people were trying to convince themselves that the DEFENCE was the weak link...just goes to show how delusional people can get during the offseason.
Too much time to convince themselves of things that aren't true without any factual comparative basis to snap them back to reality....

Well, I think it's probably well over due....


SLAP!!!

Now quit trying to convince yourselves of things that obviously aren't true.
Our Defence was the ONLY consistant element last season.
Sure, the pass D struggled, but a large part of that was our almost complete lack of ability to apply pressure with only the front 4.
We had to blitz to get to the QB, and teams began anticipating the blitz.
Hopefully, Jared Allen will help solve that problem.


The REAL weakness - and it has been for 3 years - has been the Offense.
No Receivers, no QB, spotty line play, and unimaginative play calling have all contributed to the Vikings inability to score with consistancy.
And before you even TRY to dispute that, remove Adrian Peterson from the equation and you'll see what I mean.


Now, the UP side is that the Vikes have brought in some people to address some of those issues.
Berrian should be a good deep threat - forcing Defences back.
And Sydney Rice is developing nicely.
Those two, along with Wade (Who is turing into quite the possession guy) should be able to form a nice receiving nucleus.
Granted, Shiancoe appears to be a bit of a stretch (Too much money, too little production)...but most of us were scratching our heads when they pulled the trigger on that deal anyway.

The line play is still up in the air.
Birk isn't getting younger, McKinnie isn't getting better, and the Right side is still in flux.
Hopefully some of the new blood will make that come together.
If not, we'll be cursing them again this season.

Which brings me to MY selection as the weakest link....Tarvaris Jackson.
I didn't feel he really made much progress as the season wore on.
And, most importantly, I didn't see him really step up and embrace the role he's supposed to play.
In short, I was all for calling it a day on the Jackson experiment last season.
Many have argued with me about this, but I thought his play last season was pretty rotten - all things considered.

But he's had another off season to progress and develope.
Hopefully, he has.
And if his MENTAL game starts to match his physical potential, the kid will be one heck of a solid QB.
So, I'm going to give him a few more games before I make my call on him.


But, again, based entirely on what we KNOW - and not what we wish were true - Jackson is, right now, the weakest link.
Can he step up?
I hope so.


Caine


Good post Caine untill the part about Tarvaris not making any improvement. IMO this has been proved on this site, granted numbers arn't always the most accurate arguement I would have to agree there was substantal difference from the first 8 Weeks to the last 8 Weeks. Particularly the QB rating, TD's and INT's. I think its safe to say Tarvaris did exactly what the coaching staff asked him to do, really it wasn't a good idea for him to try to be hero, but the last game of the season was a good example of Tarvaris stepping up into that role in a pressure situation. I thought that was very exiting but we had a few guys who proabably overshadowed his best performance.

Tarvaris did have some rotten play last season but I believe it was mixed with flashes of solid play. I was considering throwing the towl in on Tarvaris at one point last season but this was very early, I was also frustrated with loosing. As the season grew Tarvaris did better, he bounced back after a horrid game showing the composure that is needed. Overall I was happy he was able to complete a 8-4 record as starter and most games he did a very good job of managing and protecting the football. The majority of his turnovers came in big bunches, I expected these types of things with such a raw inexperienced player.

In the end I think its a good decision to give him more oportunity, especailly given his age/experience and the actuall situations he's been pluged into. IMO Tarvaris will eventually get a contract extension and remain with our team. I think its important we continue to bring in weapons for him and do whatever it takes to up our game in pass protection, wether he's QB or next guy in Line. Tarvaris has a future because he has the work ethic, poise and comitment. In the end Hard Work and Perseverense always pay off.


Perhaps I should have said that I didn't see Jackson make the amount of improvement he needed to in order to justify our Head Coach placing all of his faith (and the Vikings hopes) on Jackson.


Truthfully, I thought he had a season of lousey to spotty play with one excellent quarter (4th quarter of the Denver game).
And I attributed his "improvement" in the latter half of the season to the alterations the Vikings made offensively.
Instead of throwing crossing routes (which he'd miss on) or deep routes (which Williamson would drop), the Vikes started throwing a lot of come-back routes.
When your target is only 5-7 yards deep, it isn't that hard to hit him...especially when he's standing still.


Plus, when you look at the last half of HIS season (remember, he missed 4 games), two of those positive stat games were during Defensive blow outs (Giants and Lions).
Granted, Jackson looked pretty good versus Detroit (the Second time), but when AP is rushing for 116 and Chester tosses in another 70, there's no excuse NOT to.

So, when everything was going right, Jackson looked good....but when things were slow, Jackson never really stepped up.
When we had the play-offs in our hands (versus Washington), our running game was stuffed.
Jackson responded with 2 picks.
Granted, Childress abandoned the run too soon, but the point is that the weight of the team was placed upon Jackson, and he fell short....much like he did almost every other time the weight of the franchise was on his shoulders.

So, sure, he looked good in spots, and he has the physical tools, but his mental game was well below par...and that's what I'm looking at when I say he didn't do much improvement last season.
Not during the season anyway.

Now, like I said before, if he can step up during the offseason and embrace the role he's supposed to be playing, if he can take the team on his shoulders and make something happen when Peterson and Taylor are eating 8-9 in the box (which, ironically, is when he SHOULD be shining), we might get somewhere.

Time will tell.

Caine

bleedpurple
06-30-2008, 12:18 PM
"Caine" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"Caine" wrote:


I can't believe I read over 5 pages of posts where people were trying to convince themselves that the DEFENCE was the weak link...just goes to show how delusional people can get during the offseason.
Too much time to convince themselves of things that aren't true without any factual comparative basis to snap them back to reality....

Well, I think it's probably well over due....


SLAP!!!

Now quit trying to convince yourselves of things that obviously aren't true.
Our Defence was the ONLY consistant element last season.
Sure, the pass D struggled, but a large part of that was our almost complete lack of ability to apply pressure with only the front 4.
We had to blitz to get to the QB, and teams began anticipating the blitz.
Hopefully, Jared Allen will help solve that problem.


The REAL weakness - and it has been for 3 years - has been the Offense.
No Receivers, no QB, spotty line play, and unimaginative play calling have all contributed to the Vikings inability to score with consistancy.
And before you even TRY to dispute that, remove Adrian Peterson from the equation and you'll see what I mean.


Now, the UP side is that the Vikes have brought in some people to address some of those issues.
Berrian should be a good deep threat - forcing Defences back.
And Sydney Rice is developing nicely.
Those two, along with Wade (Who is turing into quite the possession guy) should be able to form a nice receiving nucleus.
Granted, Shiancoe appears to be a bit of a stretch (Too much money, too little production)...but most of us were scratching our heads when they pulled the trigger on that deal anyway.

The line play is still up in the air.
Birk isn't getting younger, McKinnie isn't getting better, and the Right side is still in flux.
Hopefully some of the new blood will make that come together.
If not, we'll be cursing them again this season.

Which brings me to MY selection as the weakest link....Tarvaris Jackson.
I didn't feel he really made much progress as the season wore on.
And, most importantly, I didn't see him really step up and embrace the role he's supposed to play.
In short, I was all for calling it a day on the Jackson experiment last season.
Many have argued with me about this, but I thought his play last season was pretty rotten - all things considered.

But he's had another off season to progress and develope.
Hopefully, he has.
And if his MENTAL game starts to match his physical potential, the kid will be one heck of a solid QB.
So, I'm going to give him a few more games before I make my call on him.


But, again, based entirely on what we KNOW - and not what we wish were true - Jackson is, right now, the weakest link.
Can he step up?
I hope so.


Caine


Good post Caine untill the part about Tarvaris not making any improvement. IMO this has been proved on this site, granted numbers arn't always the most accurate arguement I would have to agree there was substantal difference from the first 8 Weeks to the last 8 Weeks. Particularly the QB rating, TD's and INT's. I think its safe to say Tarvaris did exactly what the coaching staff asked him to do, really it wasn't a good idea for him to try to be hero, but the last game of the season was a good example of Tarvaris stepping up into that role in a pressure situation. I thought that was very exiting but we had a few guys who proabably overshadowed his best performance.

Tarvaris did have some rotten play last season but I believe it was mixed with flashes of solid play. I was considering throwing the towl in on Tarvaris at one point last season but this was very early, I was also frustrated with loosing. As the season grew Tarvaris did better, he bounced back after a horrid game showing the composure that is needed. Overall I was happy he was able to complete a 8-4 record as starter and most games he did a very good job of managing and protecting the football. The majority of his turnovers came in big bunches, I expected these types of things with such a raw inexperienced player.

In the end I think its a good decision to give him more oportunity, especailly given his age/experience and the actuall situations he's been pluged into. IMO Tarvaris will eventually get a contract extension and remain with our team. I think its important we continue to bring in weapons for him and do whatever it takes to up our game in pass protection, wether he's QB or next guy in Line. Tarvaris has a future because he has the work ethic, poise and comitment. In the end Hard Work and Perseverense always pay off.


Perhaps I should have said that I didn't see Jackson make the amount of improvement he needed to in order to justify our Head Coach placing all of his faith (and the Vikings hopes) on Jackson.


Truthfully, I thought he had a season of lousey to spotty play with one excellent quarter (4th quarter of the Denver game).
And I attributed his "improvement" in the latter half of the season to the alterations the Vikings made offensively.
Instead of throwing crossing routes (which he'd miss on) or deep routes (which Williamson would drop), the Vikes started throwing a lot of come-back routes.
When your target is only 5-7 yards deep, it isn't that hard to hit him...especially when he's standing still.


Plus, when you look at the last half of HIS season (remember, he missed 4 games), two of those positive stat games were during Defensive blow outs (Giants and Lions).
Granted, Jackson looked pretty good versus Detroit (the Second time), but when AP is rushing for 116 and Chester tosses in another 70, there's no excuse NOT to.

So, when everything was going right, Jackson looked good....but when things were slow, Jackson never really stepped up.
When we had the play-offs in our hands (versus Washington), our running game was stuffed.
Jackson responded with 2 picks.
Granted, Childress abandoned the run too soon, but the point is that the weight of the team was placed upon Jackson, and he fell short....much like he did almost every other time the weight of the franchise was on his shoulders.

So, sure, he looked good in spots, and he has the physical tools, but his mental game was well below par...and that's what I'm looking at when I say he didn't do much improvement last season.
Not during the season anyway.

Now, like I said before, if he can step up during the offseason and embrace the role he's supposed to be playing, if he can take the team on his shoulders and make something happen when Peterson and Taylor are eating 8-9 in the box (which, ironically, is when he SHOULD be shining), we might get somewhere.

Time will tell.

Caine


i think this post is a little overly critical with not much thought input for the simple fact, that your missing alot of the intangibles related to objectively analyzing TJ's play...

Lousey to Spotty play is far too critical of his play, because your missing alot of what goes into playing QB..

your not taking into account your expectations, realistically anyway, of what you expected of him, a 2nd year QB that was a project and was gonna take time to develop... (what did you honestly expect him to play like??.. did you honestly expect him to play much better than he did??)

2nd you have to take into account our lack of WR experience and depth.. as well as the "lousy to spotty" O-line pass blocking..

and to say he played better bc we ran comeback routes is ridiculous.... they threw and ran alot of seam routes, slants and some deep routes.. i don't think they ran anymore comeback routes than at any other point in the season.. in order to run an effective comeback route, you have to pose a deep threat... doubt many of out players possed that threat.. hence, Sidney Rice, Allison, getting behind the corner and b/t the safety on quite a few 20+ yrd throws...

I think all of the ppl critical of TJ need to curtain their expectations and look at his play objectively... did he suck at times.. .HELL YEAH, but did he also do a key component that BJ coldn't do the year before, nor BB or KH, which is manage the game, limit mistakes, and play for field position..?? arguably the hardest thing for a young QB to do..?? YEah, absolutely...
hence his 8-4 record, and out 0-4 record w/o him in the lineup...

And i'm not sure what the heck you were looking at but if you saw the way he played in those last 2 or 3 games the year before, you'd have a hard time determining the difference between that QB and Spergun Wynn... and we all know how bad he was...

We've all done and seen the comparisons between current TJ and current peers in his QB class, i.e. Cutler, VY, Rivers, A. Smith, Leinhart, etc. etc. and he's not playing any worse than half of those guys...


Hell, even Eli sucked and was inconsistent his entire careen with the exception of the last 5 weeks or of last season.. and he was a #1 overall pick...

Yeah, TJ has some bad habits and did some dumb things last year, most of all which would be expected of a young qb... but don't act like he didn't do a lot of positive things as well... not to mention throwing to receivers who either can't catch or get open... and did i mention Bobby wade was our #1 receiver last year??... he won't be more than a #3 or #4 receiver this year...!! Case in point.....

sh01002
06-30-2008, 02:19 PM
Herrera is young but I think he can pull off some big plays this year

jargomcfargo
06-30-2008, 04:41 PM
"sh01002" wrote:


Herrera is young but I think he can pull off some big plays this year


He shouldn't even be on the list. He had a solid year and will only get better.

VikingsTw
06-30-2008, 06:41 PM
"Caine" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


"Caine" wrote:


I can't believe I read over 5 pages of posts where people were trying to convince themselves that the DEFENCE was the weak link...just goes to show how delusional people can get during the offseason.
Too much time to convince themselves of things that aren't true without any factual comparative basis to snap them back to reality....

Well, I think it's probably well over due....


SLAP!!!

Now quit trying to convince yourselves of things that obviously aren't true.
Our Defence was the ONLY consistant element last season.
Sure, the pass D struggled, but a large part of that was our almost complete lack of ability to apply pressure with only the front 4.
We had to blitz to get to the QB, and teams began anticipating the blitz.
Hopefully, Jared Allen will help solve that problem.


The REAL weakness - and it has been for 3 years - has been the Offense.
No Receivers, no QB, spotty line play, and unimaginative play calling have all contributed to the Vikings inability to score with consistancy.
And before you even TRY to dispute that, remove Adrian Peterson from the equation and you'll see what I mean.


Now, the UP side is that the Vikes have brought in some people to address some of those issues.
Berrian should be a good deep threat - forcing Defences back.
And Sydney Rice is developing nicely.
Those two, along with Wade (Who is turing into quite the possession guy) should be able to form a nice receiving nucleus.
Granted, Shiancoe appears to be a bit of a stretch (Too much money, too little production)...but most of us were scratching our heads when they pulled the trigger on that deal anyway.

The line play is still up in the air.
Birk isn't getting younger, McKinnie isn't getting better, and the Right side is still in flux.
Hopefully some of the new blood will make that come together.
If not, we'll be cursing them again this season.

Which brings me to MY selection as the weakest link....Tarvaris Jackson.
I didn't feel he really made much progress as the season wore on.
And, most importantly, I didn't see him really step up and embrace the role he's supposed to play.
In short, I was all for calling it a day on the Jackson experiment last season.
Many have argued with me about this, but I thought his play last season was pretty rotten - all things considered.

But he's had another off season to progress and develope.
Hopefully, he has.
And if his MENTAL game starts to match his physical potential, the kid will be one heck of a solid QB.
So, I'm going to give him a few more games before I make my call on him.


But, again, based entirely on what we KNOW - and not what we wish were true - Jackson is, right now, the weakest link.
Can he step up?
I hope so.


Caine


Good post Caine untill the part about Tarvaris not making any improvement. IMO this has been proved on this site, granted numbers arn't always the most accurate arguement I would have to agree there was substantal difference from the first 8 Weeks to the last 8 Weeks. Particularly the QB rating, TD's and INT's. I think its safe to say Tarvaris did exactly what the coaching staff asked him to do, really it wasn't a good idea for him to try to be hero, but the last game of the season was a good example of Tarvaris stepping up into that role in a pressure situation. I thought that was very exiting but we had a few guys who proabably overshadowed his best performance.

Tarvaris did have some rotten play last season but I believe it was mixed with flashes of solid play. I was considering throwing the towl in on Tarvaris at one point last season but this was very early, I was also frustrated with loosing. As the season grew Tarvaris did better, he bounced back after a horrid game showing the composure that is needed. Overall I was happy he was able to complete a 8-4 record as starter and most games he did a very good job of managing and protecting the football. The majority of his turnovers came in big bunches, I expected these types of things with such a raw inexperienced player.

In the end I think its a good decision to give him more oportunity, especailly given his age/experience and the actuall situations he's been pluged into. IMO Tarvaris will eventually get a contract extension and remain with our team. I think its important we continue to bring in weapons for him and do whatever it takes to up our game in pass protection, wether he's QB or next guy in Line. Tarvaris has a future because he has the work ethic, poise and comitment. In the end Hard Work and Perseverense always pay off.


Perhaps I should have said that I didn't see Jackson make the amount of improvement he needed to in order to justify our Head Coach placing all of his faith (and the Vikings hopes) on Jackson.


Truthfully, I thought he had a season of lousey to spotty play with one excellent quarter (4th quarter of the Denver game).
And I attributed his "improvement" in the latter half of the season to the alterations the Vikings made offensively.
Instead of throwing crossing routes (which he'd miss on) or deep routes (which Williamson would drop), the Vikes started throwing a lot of come-back routes.
When your target is only 5-7 yards deep, it isn't that hard to hit him...especially when he's standing still.


Plus, when you look at the last half of HIS season (remember, he missed 4 games), two of those positive stat games were during Defensive blow outs (Giants and Lions).
Granted, Jackson looked pretty good versus Detroit (the Second time), but when AP is rushing for 116 and Chester tosses in another 70, there's no excuse NOT to.

So, when everything was going right, Jackson looked good....but when things were slow, Jackson never really stepped up.
When we had the play-offs in our hands (versus Washington), our running game was stuffed.
Jackson responded with 2 picks.
Granted, Childress abandoned the run too soon, but the point is that the weight of the team was placed upon Jackson, and he fell short....much like he did almost every other time the weight of the franchise was on his shoulders.

So, sure, he looked good in spots, and he has the physical tools, but his mental game was well below par...and that's what I'm looking at when I say he didn't do much improvement last season.
Not during the season anyway.

Now, like I said before, if he can step up during the offseason and embrace the role he's supposed to be playing, if he can take the team on his shoulders and make something happen when Peterson and Taylor are eating 8-9 in the box (which, ironically, is when he SHOULD be shining), we might get somewhere.

Time will tell.

Caine


I can see where your going when you say his play has improved when we altered the offense. IMO we were throwing many of same passess game in and game out all year long. Button routes, slants all of it. I always thought Tarvaris had a nice throw when the slant was available like when Troy dropped one in Denver. We had to attack the outside with such button patterns because the box was crowded. With the addition of Berrian and Rice playing full time I expect to see more plays made with underneath stuff, including dumpoffs to the RB's. With the safeties backed up this should become available.

By the way one of Tarvaris's poorest passess was a comeback route directed toward Robert Furgeson. Tarvaris did not have the greatest accuracy but I would say it was fair to good. I think he ended the season with some 58 % completion that could have easily been moved up to 60 if we wern't dropping so many passess. I do agree accuracy must be something he works on and I'm quite sure he has.

And this is exactly what I like to hear, "When everything was going good Tarvaris did good". After watching last season I felt if one unit was doing there job the other screwed up, there was never great consistenty amongst the units. When this starts happening I expect to see more good play from Tarvaris.

I hate to see you bring up the Redskin game, I've tried forgetting about that one for the sake of many players and coaches. If someone had told me we were gonna need Tarvaris to throw the ball 40 times with no run game and B. Wade and Furgeson as his wingmen I would have declared disappointment. I think its important to keep in mind just how important Rice was to Tarvaris last year, in the games that Rice caught a pass and was a contributor we won. The games he wasn't a contributar we lost. Tarvaris has got to have his weapons, he has to feel that confidence in his guys and I know it was wearing thin.

You can always say his mental game was below par but I disagree, he showed capable of bouncing back after bad games or INT's in order to keep composure, one his best assests. I think his mental game was where we expected, a raw rookie.

I definitly think we can make that happen, we got the WR's, now we need to block the heavy fronts in order to get downfield, we'll be ready.

Time will tell, this is very true and I think this is the year where we can really sit back and make an absolute analysis/decision on our young QB. I expect to see a nice improvement, all pieces point toward more sucess. So many of the guys on offense were first timers, essentually rookies to our system. The experience and added weapons should do wonders, if not we'll probably be looking for another QB, but IMO if others are doing there job Tarvaris will be doing his. If not we got a problem.

Marrdro
07-01-2008, 07:53 AM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


*snip*..........
Time will tell, this is very true and I think this is the year where we can really sit back and make an absolute analysis/decision on our young QB. I expect to see a nice improvement, all pieces point toward more sucess. So many of the guys on offense were first timers, essentually rookies to our system. The experience and added weapons should do wonders, if not we'll probably be looking for another QB, but IMO if others are doing there job Tarvaris will be doing his. If not we got a problem.

Some very nice points in there my friend.

Quick question, will we have to look far for a QB next year?
I think Booty will be a quick study and should be a viable candidate if (Big IF) TJ doesn't continue to show improvement over last year.

Zeus
07-01-2008, 08:45 AM
"jargomcfargo" wrote:


"sh01002" wrote:


Herrera is young but I think he can pull off some big plays this year


He shouldn't even be on the list. He had a solid year and will only get better.


For someone to be a "weakest link", IMHO, then the expectations need to greatly exceed the actual performance.
Herrera, last year, was the exact opposite - low expectations, good performance.
I expect more of the same this year - so my expectations are in the medium range.

As opposed to say, SHARPER, who has this big rep of being a STUD, when, in reality, his actual performance is full of missed tackles, blown coverages and the occasional interception.

=Z=

jargomcfargo
07-01-2008, 10:20 AM
"Zeus" wrote:


"jargomcfargo" wrote:


"sh01002" wrote:


Herrera is young but I think he can pull off some big plays this year


He shouldn't even be on the list. He had a solid year and will only get better.


For someone to be a "weakest link", IMHO, then the expectations need to greatly exceed the actual performance.
Herrera, last year, was the exact opposite - low expectations, good performance.
I expect more of the same this year - so my expectations are in the medium range.

As opposed to say, SHARPER, who has this big rep of being a STUD, when, in reality, his actual performance is full of missed tackles, blown coverages and the occasional interception.

=Z=


Quite well stated. It is expectation that can cloud our objectivity.
Good point.

V-Unit
07-01-2008, 12:14 PM
"Zeus" wrote:


"jargomcfargo" wrote:


"sh01002" wrote:


Herrera is young but I think he can pull off some big plays this year


He shouldn't even be on the list. He had a solid year and will only get better.


For someone to be a "weakest link", IMHO, then the expectations need to greatly exceed the actual performance.
Herrera, last year, was the exact opposite - low expectations, good performance.
I expect more of the same this year - so my expectations are in the medium range.

As opposed to say, SHARPER, who has this big rep of being a STUD, when, in reality, his actual performance is full of missed tackles, blown coverages and the occasional interception.

=Z=


I think that's a bad definition. That is how you define overrated.
Not weakest link. Look at the poll question: "Who is the Vikings' worst starter?"

Anyways, that got me thinking of who the most underrated starter is...Cook? Herrera? Tapeh? Taylor? Edwards? Robison? Leber? Henderson?

VikingsTw
07-01-2008, 02:55 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"VikingsTw" wrote:


*snip*..........
Time will tell, this is very true and I think this is the year where we can really sit back and make an absolute analysis/decision on our young QB. I expect to see a nice improvement, all pieces point toward more sucess. So many of the guys on offense were first timers, essentually rookies to our system. The experience and added weapons should do wonders, if not we'll probably be looking for another QB, but IMO if others are doing there job Tarvaris will be doing his. If not we got a problem.

Some very nice points in there my friend.

Quick question, will we have to look far for a QB next year?
I think Booty will be a quick study and should be a viable candidate if (Big IF) TJ doesn't continue to show improvement over last year.


I don't know how far we will have to look but I will say I really like Booty's future with this team, I think its a perfect situation for him and when watching his highlights he really can wing it. I think Childress prefers him to ride pine at least this year if not next. Ferrotte is capable IMO and this is the best team he has played for his entire carear. IMO all signs point toward our QB having an easier job this year than in the past two. I'm feeling good about the situation we have at QB unlike the mass media and a portoin of our fan base. I think we have 3 guys capable of winning games. Out of all three I like Tarvaris but the dumb mistakes got to go and with time they should.

Booty would be ready to win games next year IMO. Like you said quick study and a good team around him.

Zeus
07-03-2008, 08:07 AM
"V" wrote:


"Zeus" wrote:


"jargomcfargo" wrote:


"sh01002" wrote:


Herrera is young but I think he can pull off some big plays this year


He shouldn't even be on the list. He had a solid year and will only get better.


For someone to be a "weakest link", IMHO, then the expectations need to greatly exceed the actual performance.
Herrera, last year, was the exact opposite - low expectations, good performance.
I expect more of the same this year - so my expectations are in the medium range.

As opposed to say, SHARPER, who has this big rep of being a STUD, when, in reality, his actual performance is full of missed tackles, blown coverages and the occasional interception.


I think that's a bad definition. That is how you define overrated.
Not weakest link. Look at the poll question: "Who is the Vikings' worst starter?"

The poll is 8 pages back, LOL.
I look at the subject - "Who is the weakest link?"
For me to evaluate the "weakest", I have to look at what is expected.
If Herrera is deemed to be the "weakest" player, then the Vikings will scheme to help him and his performance will likely be okay.
But if Sharper is deemed not to be the "weakest" player and is left alone on an island as a safety, then I believe he will give up more big plays than make big plays and his performance will expose him as a "weak LINK".


Anyways, that got me thinking of who the most underrated starter is...Cook? Herrera? Tapeh? Taylor? Edwards? Robison? Leber? Henderson?

Good question....tough for us to answer since we're so familiar.

I'd have to go with EJ.
He SHOULD have gone to the Pro Bowl last year.

=Z=

i_bleed_purple
07-03-2008, 08:32 AM
For most Underrated, I would have to say either EJ or Winfield.
I can't bring myself to say Cook, Edwards, Robison, Herrera or anything like that, because some of them have not played full time so we have absolutely no clue how they will perform (Robison/Edwards)
Some are young and aren't spectacular, but still ok (Cook, Herrera)
Some have never played (Tapeh).
Taylor is good, but finding a runningback like that is fairly easy.
We could lose him and in a few years we'd have a suitable replacement.
Winfield has had a few pro-bowl worthy years (Still can't believe that Newman got voted in over him), EJ really turned it up the past 2 seasons, but they don't get the respect they deserve.

V-Unit
07-03-2008, 09:04 AM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


For most Underrated, I would have to say either EJ or Winfield.
I can't bring myself to say Cook, Edwards, Robison, Herrera or anything like that, because some of them have not played full time so we have absolutely no clue how they will perform (Robison/Edwards)
Some are young and aren't spectacular, but still ok (Cook, Herrera)
Some have never played (Tapeh).
Taylor is good, but finding a runningback like that is fairly easy.
We could lose him and in a few years we'd have a suitable replacement.
Winfield has had a few pro-bowl worthy years (Still can't believe that Newman got voted in over him), EJ really turned it up the past 2 seasons, but they don't get the respect they deserve.


I agree with on everyone but Taylor. I don't think he is a dime-a-dozen at all. We forget his 2006 season, or that he is in his prime, or that he has pretty fresh legs in the league, playing in a platoon season his whole career.

People say he slowed down, but we more than double his carries when he came from Baltimore. He went from a spell back to the top rusher (attempts) in the league. And didn't Peterson slow down too.

Anyways, the fact that Taylor was able to step in and dominate last year amazes me. I really view him as a starter on our team. In an era when mid-level RBs usually flame out after one or two good seasons (the exampls are countless, Stephen Davis anybody?), I'll take Taylor.

I think Tapeh is unique because no one is expecting much from him withthe FB position being so devalued. If he can fill Richardson's (Pro Bowl) shoes, then he is very underrated.

Anyways, EJ is probably the likely answer. He had a great year. Winfield is a crazy scenario. His stats are not too sweet but watching the guy play is awesome. About halfway through the game you start to assume Winfield made the tackle if you can't see the jersey number.

Caine
07-03-2008, 02:55 PM
"bleedpurple]caine" wrote:



***previous posts cut for space***
i think this post is a little overly critical with not much thought input for the simple fact, that your missing alot of the intangibles related to objectively analyzing TJ's play...

Lousey to Spotty play is far too critical of his play, because your missing alot of what goes into playing QB..

your not taking into account your expectations, realistically anyway, of what you expected of him, a 2nd year QB that was a project and was gonna take time to develop... (what did you honestly expect him to play like??.. did you honestly expect him to play much better than he did??)

Without much thought input?
Did you really type that?
If this were a sound medium I'd question my hearing but....no....there it is...."without much thought input".
I beg to differ.
I've had nothing to do all off season BUT go over the past season, dig into the stats, and look for trends.


Here's why I disregard your opening statements:
"a 2nd year QB that was a project and was gonna take time to develop".
How long does that excuse remain valid?
At which point do we get to judge him based upon the FACT that he was the starting Quarterback of the Minnesota Vikings?
In fact, even wheeling that excuse out deflects all blame from Jackson onto Childress for putting him in that position.
So, you have a choice.
You can either judge Jackson on his own merits (as I am doing), or you can make excuses.
And, from where I'm sitting, excuses don't win Lombardy trophys.


"bleedpurple]2nd" wrote:



I did.
But what's really different this year?
Since we haven't radically altered our receiver corps in the offseason, is ONE guy going to be the difference?

Truth is, Wade and Rice were dependable.
Williamson was a bust.
This was no suprise to anyone coming into the season.
Our receiver corps was not our strength.
Our O-line was not as bad as you think.
But I called them out already...in my first post.

But, again, did Jackson "rise above" any of that?
Nope.
Did he make things happen?
Nope.
Not until the fourth quarter versus Denver.


[b]"bleedpurple]and" wrote:
[quote]

The truth is that Jackson average yards per completion was slightly lower in his last 6 games than in his first 6.
Of course, I can't find a convenient set of stats that show YAC, so I can't pin down how many of these yards were generated by the receivers.
But, you don't need a deep threat to run a comeback.
The corner will typically try and prevent the receiver from getting BEHIND him, so if the receiver quickly turns and comes back (hence, the term "come back"), the corner has to quickly reverse direction.
This gives the QB a window where the receiver is alone and - you guessed it - standing virtually still.


And, if you review game films, you will see we did a LOT of this in the latter portion of the season.
Once in awhile we'd go deep, but Jackson's "money route" was the come back.

"bleedpurple]I" wrote:
[quote]

His 8-4 record...really.
The 8 teams he beat were:
Atlanta, Chicago (twice), San Diego, Oakland, New York Giants, Detroit, and San Francisco.

Let's see....Atlanta had just lost Vick and was in turmoil, San Diego was the Adrian Peterson Show, the first Chicago game was the "Adrian Peterson show", Oakland was the "Chester Taylor show", the Giants was the Defense killing She'lie, Jackson played well in Detroit (the second time) but Peterson and Taylor were dominant, and San Fran was our "D" overwhelming San Fran and our offense doing anything they wanted.

Now, I didn't say Bollinger or Holcomb were better options, but I am saying that Jackson benefitted from great TEAM play, not from great INDIVIDUAL play.
His top 3 statistical games occured when the Defense overwhelmed the opposing offenses...oddly enough.
Truth is, NONE of our QB's were all that impressive...Jackson included.


"bleedpurple]And" wrote:
[quote]

Yes, he was horrible the first year, but I'm not sure why this is relevant?
Our entire TEAM was collapsing then.
There was no heart.
Johnson got rode out of town on a rail, and Childress was in the hotseat.
Were it not for landing Adrian Peterson, Childress would have followed Johnson, and Jackson would have been going with him.


"bleedpurple]We've" wrote:
[quote]

Which means that he IS playing worse than the other half.
Truth is, I don't compare him to them because they aren't Vikings.
I only care about what Jackson does.


"bleedpurple]Hell," wrote:
[quote]

Again, there is no reason for the comparrison.
Jackson will live or die on HIS merits, not on anyone else's, or anyone else's lack thereof.
If Eli tanks, it won't make me feel better about Jackson losing.

[quote author=bleedpurple]Yeah, TJ has some bad habits and did some dumb things last year, most of all which would be expected of a young qb... but don't act like he didn't do a lot of positive things as well... not to mention throwing to receivers who either can't catch or get open... and did i mention Bobby wade was our #1 receiver last year??... he won't be more than a #3 or #4 receiver this year...!! Case in point.....

Yes, he did some dumb things (the jump pass ranks highest on my list), and yes, he has some bad habits.
He also has some accuracy issues he needs to resolve.
Remove the excuses of receiver and line play from the question and the ask yourself if he stepped up and made plays when he had to?
The answer is that the majority of the time he did NOT when the pressure was on.
When it was crunch time, he got crunched.
And THAT is what needs to change.
He needs to step up and LEAD.
All the excuses are gone now.
No one cares what school he went to anymore, that's now dead.
He's now a 3rd year QB and he has to PROVE he deserves to be here...he didn't do that last year, and only the complete lack of backup talent kept him as the starter.

Fact is, Frerotte is a proven commodity.
Sure, his main role is to prepare Jackson and Booty, but if Jackson falls flat, Gus will be there to pick up the slack.
Booty will be ready next year, and that will add some heat to Jackson.
The truth is, he has NOW to prove he can do it.
Now, as I said, he has all the physical tools to shine.
The question is, does he have the mental tools?
Does he have the heart and desire to take the team on his shoulder and make plays?

We'll see.

Caine

C Mac D
07-03-2008, 04:10 PM
"Caine" wrote:


Here's why I disregard your opening statements:
"a 2nd year QB that was a project and was gonna take time to develop".
How long does that excuse remain valid?

Not really an excuse, it's just a fact. A 2nd year QB coming from a DII school is going to need time to develop, no matter how frustrated it makes you.

Go back and look at Steve Young's numbers his second year... (I know he went to Brigham Young and not a DII school... but that should even further my point).

MetalMike-LoudVike
07-03-2008, 04:13 PM
I say Ryan Cook at times in Pass Protection, he just gets beaten, by faster DE's.

seaniemck7
07-03-2008, 09:30 PM
"C" wrote:


"Caine" wrote:


Here's why I disregard your opening statements:
"a 2nd year QB that was a project and was gonna take time to develop".
How long does that excuse remain valid?

Not really an excuse, it's just a fact. A 2nd year QB coming from a DII school is going to need time to develop, no matter how frustrated it makes you.

Go back and look at Steve Young's numbers his second year... (I know he went to Brigham Young and not a DII school... but that should even further my point).


I think Caine's point is ... numbers mean shit.
The question is not: will he have impressive numbers; the question is: will TJ do the things that need to be done to help us win.


Take Vince Young for example.
I think he sucks as a QB.
I would not want him for the world on our team.
But the dude wins games.
They went to the playoffs last year in a tough AFC conference and tough division (with some shitbox receivers mind you).
THAT is what we need to see from TJ.


Can our defense win us ball games for us (NYG game)? fuck yeah.
Can our running game do the same (Bears, SD)?
We all have witnessed it.
Two questions reamain: 1) can TJ manage the games to let those things happen 2) when those parts of our game get stymied, can he lead us to victory? That is what we need to find out in the next 16 games.

Then again, Caine, don't let me put words in your mouth.
:-X
;)

i_bleed_purple
07-03-2008, 10:52 PM
"V" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


For most Underrated, I would have to say either EJ or Winfield.
I can't bring myself to say Cook, Edwards, Robison, Herrera or anything like that, because some of them have not played full time so we have absolutely no clue how they will perform (Robison/Edwards)
Some are young and aren't spectacular, but still ok (Cook, Herrera)
Some have never played (Tapeh).
Taylor is good, but finding a runningback like that is fairly easy.
We could lose him and in a few years we'd have a suitable replacement.
Winfield has had a few pro-bowl worthy years (Still can't believe that Newman got voted in over him), EJ really turned it up the past 2 seasons, but they don't get the respect they deserve.


I agree with on everyone but Taylor. I don't think he is a dime-a-dozen at all. We forget his 2006 season, or that he is in his prime, or that he has pretty fresh legs in the league, playing in a platoon season his whole career.

People say he slowed down, but we more than double his carries when he came from Baltimore. He went from a spell back to the top rusher (attempts) in the league. And didn't Peterson slow down too.

Anyways, the fact that Taylor was able to step in and dominate last year amazes me. I really view him as a starter on our team. In an era when mid-level RBs usually flame out after one or two good seasons (the exampls are countless, Stephen Davis anybody?), I'll take Taylor.

I think Tapeh is unique because no one is expecting much from him withthe FB position being so devalued. If he can fill Richardson's (Pro Bowl) shoes, then he is very underrated.

Anyways, EJ is probably the likely answer. He had a great year. Winfield is a crazy scenario. His stats are not too sweet but watching the guy play is awesome. About halfway through the game you start to assume Winfield made the tackle if you can't see the jersey number.


About Taylor, I don't argue that he is a good player, and an asset to this team, but he is replaceable.
(nothing against his skill, if he were our starter and we didn't have AD I would be fine with that)
Lets look at some of the 1000+ yard rushers in the past few years.
In 2005, 16 players rushed for over 1000 yards, those included Shawn Alexander, Tiki Barber, Larry Johnson, Clinton Portis, Edgerrin James, Ladainian Tomlinson, Rudi Johnson, , Thomas Jones, Willis McGahee, Reuben Droughnes, Willie Parker, Caddilac Williams, Steven Jackson and lamont jordan.
Of those players, IMO, Rudi, Warrick, TJones, McGahee, Droughnes, Caddilac and Lamont Jordan are not terrific backs.
Some are pretty good, and produce ok numbers every year, and actually remind me of Chester Taylor.
All of those players I mentioned are replacable on their team.
Look at the Giants, they drafter a RB late (Bradshaw) and near the end of the season he really showed that given some reps, he can run pretty well.
I am a firm believer in "don't pick a runningback in the 1st"
Unless it is a can't miss player like Peterson, because so often, you can get a solid contributer in later rounds, much like Chester Taylor, MeMo, and Moe Williams to name a few.

2006: 23 players over 1000 yards: Ladainian Tomlinson, Larry Johnson, Frank Gore, Tiki Barber, Steven Jackon, Willie Parker, Travis Henry, Rudi Johnson, Brian Westbrook, Chester Taylor, Tatum Bell, Ronnie Brown, Fred Taylor, Julius Jones, Joseph Addai, Deuce Mcalister, Ahman Green, Thomas Jones, Edgerrin James, Ladell Betts, Warrick Dunn, Jamal Lewis. and Michael Vick (QB) Out of those players, I can only think of about 9 players who are "irriplacable"

This year there were 17 players, I won't list them all, but they include such studs as: Justin Fargas and Lendale White

I guess my point is many of these players are solid contributers, but don't have any flashy abilities (Like Tomlinson or Peterson) that make them irriplacable.
Go in ANY draft, and you can find a player who will put up solid numbers in a non-flashy way just like Taylor does, it just takes a bit of good scouting.
If Taylor decides to bitch about not getting paid enough once his contract is up, and decides to leave, I feel confident that we could find a suitable replacment.
It may take a year or two to reach Taylors level, but it certainly can be done if the FO does good scouting.


That is not to say that I don't appreciate Taylors ability, because I think that he is a key part of our offense.
When AD is off the field, we stil have a player who can get solid yards, its not like our offense has to take a break or has to throw like some other teams.

Caine
07-04-2008, 07:34 AM
"seaniemck7" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"Caine" wrote:


Here's why I disregard your opening statements:
"a 2nd year QB that was a project and was gonna take time to develop".
How long does that excuse remain valid?

Not really an excuse, it's just a fact. A 2nd year QB coming from a DII school is going to need time to develop, no matter how frustrated it makes you.

Go back and look at Steve Young's numbers his second year... (I know he went to Brigham Young and not a DII school... but that should even further my point).


I think Caine's point is ... numbers mean pooh.
The question is not: will he have impressive numbers; the question is: will TJ do the things that need to be done to help us win.


Take Vince Young for example.
I think he sucks as a QB.
I would not want him for the world on our team.
But the dude wins games.
They went to the playoffs last year in a tough AFC conference and tough division (with some shitbox receivers mind you).
THAT is what we need to see from TJ.


Can our defense win us ball games for us (NYG game)? floop yeah.
Can our running game do the same (Bears, SD)?
We all have witnessed it.
Two questions reamain: 1) can TJ manage the games to let those things happen 2) when those parts of our game get stymied, can he lead us to victory? That is what we need to find out in the next 16 games.

Then again, Caine, don't let me put words in your mouth.
:-X
;)


You're pretty much right on.


As I said, anyone can look good when the rest of the team is on a roll.
But that doesn't show what YOU bring to the table.
What happens when AP and Chester are being stuffed?
What happens when the Defense is on it's heels?
THAT is when we need a QB to step up and make plays.
And, truthfully, last season JAckson didn't do that very often.


Numbers don't mean much when you talk about this type of evaluation.
It's all situational.
As I posted before, almost all of Jackson's "Wins" were on the backs of other people.
For those games, it wouldn't have mattered who the QB was, he just had the good fortune to be there.
So, if you remove those games and look at the ones where nothing appeared to go well, what seperates him from the other QB's?


Not much.

And, again, that was all LAST season.
He's now had another entire off season to develop.
Hopefully, he has.
I'm not saying he CAN'T be "The Guy", I'm just saying that last season he really WASN'T "The Guy".
If he steps up, we'll be in a pretty good position.
If not, Gus is waiting in the wings.

Caine

tastywaves
07-04-2008, 09:52 AM
"Caine" wrote:


"seaniemck7" wrote:


"C" wrote:


"Caine" wrote:


Here's why I disregard your opening statements:
"a 2nd year QB that was a project and was gonna take time to develop".
How long does that excuse remain valid?

Not really an excuse, it's just a fact. A 2nd year QB coming from a DII school is going to need time to develop, no matter how frustrated it makes you.

Go back and look at Steve Young's numbers his second year... (I know he went to Brigham Young and not a DII school... but that should even further my point).


I think Caine's point is ... numbers mean pooh.
The question is not: will he have impressive numbers; the question is: will TJ do the things that need to be done to help us win.


Take Vince Young for example.
I think he sucks as a QB.
I would not want him for the world on our team.
But the dude wins games.
They went to the playoffs last year in a tough AFC conference and tough division (with some shitbox receivers mind you).
THAT is what we need to see from TJ.


Can our defense win us ball games for us (NYG game)? floop yeah.
Can our running game do the same (Bears, SD)?
We all have witnessed it.
Two questions reamain: 1) can TJ manage the games to let those things happen 2) when those parts of our game get stymied, can he lead us to victory? That is what we need to find out in the next 16 games.

Then again, Caine, don't let me put words in your mouth.
:-X
;)


You're pretty much right on.


As I said, anyone can look good when the rest of the team is on a roll.
But that doesn't show what YOU bring to the table.
What happens when AP and Chester are being stuffed?
What happens when the Defense is on it's heels?
THAT is when we need a QB to step up and make plays.
And, truthfully, last season JAckson didn't do that very often.


Numbers don't mean much when you talk about this type of evaluation.
It's all situational.
As I posted before, almost all of Jackson's "Wins" were on the backs of other people.
For those games, it wouldn't have mattered who the QB was, he just had the good fortune to be there.
So, if you remove those games and look at the ones where nothing appeared to go well, what seperates him from the other QB's?


Not much.

And, again, that was all LAST season.
He's now had another entire off season to develop.
Hopefully, he has.
I'm not saying he CAN'T be "The Guy", I'm just saying that last season he really WASN'T "The Guy".
If he steps up, we'll be in a pretty good position.
If not, Gus is waiting in the wings.

Caine


Good line of discussion.
This is the part that is hard to argue in these forums as everyone wants to try and throw out stats to back up their points.
The real measure of TJ's effectiveness, especially in this offense is going to be very subjective.
You have to judge his play on whether he helps your team win when you need him to or does he fall apart.
For a large part of the time he can simply manage the game, limit mistakes, and let his horses do the work.
But there will be times he needs to step up and make plays to bring a W to be worthy of being our starting QB.


I'm hopeful that he will be that guy this year as well, but you can't look at his performance to date and have a real warm fuzzy that he will be that guy.
I'm glad we brought in Frerrotte to give us a better backup plan and hopefully Booty will develop nicely over the next few years to push for the starting job.
If TJ has proven himself by then, all the better, but right now this position needs to be considered a major unknown in our quest to be the best.

tastywaves
07-04-2008, 10:06 AM
"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


For most Underrated, I would have to say either EJ or Winfield.
I can't bring myself to say Cook, Edwards, Robison, Herrera or anything like that, because some of them have not played full time so we have absolutely no clue how they will perform (Robison/Edwards)
Some are young and aren't spectacular, but still ok (Cook, Herrera)
Some have never played (Tapeh).
Taylor is good, but finding a runningback like that is fairly easy.
We could lose him and in a few years we'd have a suitable replacement.
Winfield has had a few pro-bowl worthy years (Still can't believe that Newman got voted in over him), EJ really turned it up the past 2 seasons, but they don't get the respect they deserve.


I agree with on everyone but Taylor. I don't think he is a dime-a-dozen at all. We forget his 2006 season, or that he is in his prime, or that he has pretty fresh legs in the league, playing in a platoon season his whole career.

People say he slowed down, but we more than double his carries when he came from Baltimore. He went from a spell back to the top rusher (attempts) in the league. And didn't Peterson slow down too.

Anyways, the fact that Taylor was able to step in and dominate last year amazes me. I really view him as a starter on our team. In an era when mid-level RBs usually flame out after one or two good seasons (the exampls are countless, Stephen Davis anybody?), I'll take Taylor.

I think Tapeh is unique because no one is expecting much from him withthe FB position being so devalued. If he can fill Richardson's (Pro Bowl) shoes, then he is very underrated.

Anyways, EJ is probably the likely answer. He had a great year. Winfield is a crazy scenario. His stats are not too sweet but watching the guy play is awesome. About halfway through the game you start to assume Winfield made the tackle if you can't see the jersey number.


About Taylor, I don't argue that he is a good player, and an asset to this team, but he is replaceable.
(nothing against his skill, if he were our starter and we didn't have AD I would be fine with that)
Lets look at some of the 1000+ yard rushers in the past few years.
In 2005, 16 players rushed for over 1000 yards, those included Shawn Alexander, Tiki Barber, Larry Johnson, Clinton Portis, Edgerrin James, Ladainian Tomlinson, Rudi Johnson, , Thomas Jones, Willis McGahee, Reuben Droughnes, Willie Parker, Caddilac Williams, Steven Jackson and lamont jordan.
Of those players, IMO, Rudi, Warrick, TJones, McGahee, Droughnes, Caddilac and Lamont Jordan are not terrific backs.
Some are pretty good, and produce ok numbers every year, and actually remind me of Chester Taylor.
All of those players I mentioned are replacable on their team.
Look at the Giants, they drafter a RB late (Bradshaw) and near the end of the season he really showed that given some reps, he can run pretty well.
I am a firm believer in "don't pick a runningback in the 1st"
Unless it is a can't miss player like Peterson, because so often, you can get a solid contributer in later rounds, much like Chester Taylor, MeMo, and Moe Williams to name a few.

2006: 23 players over 1000 yards: Ladainian Tomlinson, Larry Johnson, Frank Gore, Tiki Barber, Steven Jackon, Willie Parker, Travis Henry, Rudi Johnson, Brian Westbrook, Chester Taylor, Tatum Bell, Ronnie Brown, Fred Taylor, Julius Jones, Joseph Addai, Deuce Mcalister, Ahman Green, Thomas Jones, Edgerrin James, Ladell Betts, Warrick Dunn, Jamal Lewis. and Michael Vick (QB) Out of those players, I can only think of about 9 players who are "irriplacable"

This year there were 17 players, I won't list them all, but they include such studs as: Justin Fargas and Lendale White

I guess my point is many of these players are solid contributers, but don't have any flashy abilities (Like Tomlinson or Peterson) that make them irriplacable.
Go in ANY draft, and you can find a player who will put up solid numbers in a non-flashy way just like Taylor does, it just takes a bit of good scouting.
If Taylor decides to beeyatch about not getting paid enough once his contract is up, and decides to leave, I feel confident that we could find a suitable replacment.
It may take a year or two to reach Taylors level, but it certainly can be done if the FO does good scouting.


That is not to say that I don't appreciate Taylors ability, because I think that he is a key part of our offense.
When AD is off the field, we stil have a player who can get solid yards, its not like our offense has to take a break or has to throw like some other teams.


that is a very accurate assessment of Taylor IMO.
A very good RB, but not a great or elite RB.
He is a luxury for our team, and I'm glad we have him, but losing him wouldn't be the end of the world.
I've argued this in a number of other threads, but if AD has another great year, and Chester's carries continues to decrease, he should go look for greener pastures, and we should look at finding a good RB in the later rounds of the draft to fill his role and reduce the salary at this position.
Give his money to AD to ensure we lock him up long time, or spend it on a TE (doh!).

Chester will help us a lot in '08 and I'm glad he's here, but wouldn't be surprised to see him gone after next season.


Most under-rated, maybe Leber needs a vote in this category.
He's not an elite player by any means, but he has come up big in a number of games for us and quietly does a very good job of holding down his position.
Honorable mention B-Wade.
Even though he signed a decent contract that should put a little more focus on him to be a solid contributor on this team, he seems to really get downplayed with his role on our offense.
I think he has done well on this passing challenged team of doing what he is being asked to do. He was as dependable as any receiver on our team last year.
Doesn't mean I think he is great, just a solid player that goes about his business and fills his role nicely without being recognized.

i_bleed_purple
07-04-2008, 11:14 AM
I would put Leber and B-Wade in the same category.
Leber isn't very flashy, but solid.
He's not a sideline to sideline player, but he rarely gets beat.
An asset to this team?
Yes, especially since we don't have a very suitable backup for him.
Are there more like him in the league?
certainly.
same with B-Wade.
He can be a solid contributer, but he's no go-to guy.
He could not be a #1 reciever on most teams, and not many people here think that, however he was put in a tricky situation, where he was essentially forced to play above his ability, since we had crap for recievers.
He was our best reciever, but not because he's great.

V-Unit
07-06-2008, 02:53 PM
"tastywaves" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


"V" wrote:


"i_bleed_purple" wrote:


For most Underrated, I would have to say either EJ or Winfield.
I can't bring myself to say Cook, Edwards, Robison, Herrera or anything like that, because some of them have not played full time so we have absolutely no clue how they will perform (Robison/Edwards)
Some are young and aren't spectacular, but still ok (Cook, Herrera)
Some have never played (Tapeh).
Taylor is good, but finding a runningback like that is fairly easy.
We could lose him and in a few years we'd have a suitable replacement.
Winfield has had a few pro-bowl worthy years (Still can't believe that Newman got voted in over him), EJ really turned it up the past 2 seasons, but they don't get the respect they deserve.


I agree with on everyone but Taylor. I don't think he is a dime-a-dozen at all. We forget his 2006 season, or that he is in his prime, or that he has pretty fresh legs in the league, playing in a platoon season his whole career.

People say he slowed down, but we more than double his carries when he came from Baltimore. He went from a spell back to the top rusher (attempts) in the league. And didn't Peterson slow down too.

Anyways, the fact that Taylor was able to step in and dominate last year amazes me. I really view him as a starter on our team. In an era when mid-level RBs usually flame out after one or two good seasons (the exampls are countless, Stephen Davis anybody?), I'll take Taylor.

I think Tapeh is unique because no one is expecting much from him withthe FB position being so devalued. If he can fill Richardson's (Pro Bowl) shoes, then he is very underrated.

Anyways, EJ is probably the likely answer. He had a great year. Winfield is a crazy scenario. His stats are not too sweet but watching the guy play is awesome. About halfway through the game you start to assume Winfield made the tackle if you can't see the jersey number.


About Taylor, I don't argue that he is a good player, and an asset to this team, but he is replaceable.
(nothing against his skill, if he were our starter and we didn't have AD I would be fine with that)
Lets look at some of the 1000+ yard rushers in the past few years.
In 2005, 16 players rushed for over 1000 yards, those included Shawn Alexander, Tiki Barber, Larry Johnson, Clinton Portis, Edgerrin James, Ladainian Tomlinson, Rudi Johnson, , Thomas Jones, Willis McGahee, Reuben Droughnes, Willie Parker, Caddilac Williams, Steven Jackson and lamont jordan.
Of those players, IMO, Rudi, Warrick, TJones, McGahee, Droughnes, Caddilac and Lamont Jordan are not terrific backs.
Some are pretty good, and produce ok numbers every year, and actually remind me of Chester Taylor.
All of those players I mentioned are replacable on their team.
Look at the Giants, they drafter a RB late (Bradshaw) and near the end of the season he really showed that given some reps, he can run pretty well.
I am a firm believer in "don't pick a runningback in the 1st"
Unless it is a can't miss player like Peterson, because so often, you can get a solid contributer in later rounds, much like Chester Taylor, MeMo, and Moe Williams to name a few.

2006: 23 players over 1000 yards: Ladainian Tomlinson, Larry Johnson, Frank Gore, Tiki Barber, Steven Jackon, Willie Parker, Travis Henry, Rudi Johnson, Brian Westbrook, Chester Taylor, Tatum Bell, Ronnie Brown, Fred Taylor, Julius Jones, Joseph Addai, Deuce Mcalister, Ahman Green, Thomas Jones, Edgerrin James, Ladell Betts, Warrick Dunn, Jamal Lewis. and Michael Vick (QB) Out of those players, I can only think of about 9 players who are "irriplacable"

This year there were 17 players, I won't list them all, but they include such studs as: Justin Fargas and Lendale White

I guess my point is many of these players are solid contributers, but don't have any flashy abilities (Like Tomlinson or Peterson) that make them irriplacable.
Go in ANY draft, and you can find a player who will put up solid numbers in a non-flashy way just like Taylor does, it just takes a bit of good scouting.
If Taylor decides to beeyatch about not getting paid enough once his contract is up, and decides to leave, I feel confident that we could find a suitable replacment.
It may take a year or two to reach Taylors level, but it certainly can be done if the FO does good scouting.


That is not to say that I don't appreciate Taylors ability, because I think that he is a key part of our offense.
When AD is off the field, we stil have a player who can get solid yards, its not like our offense has to take a break or has to throw like some other teams.


that is a very accurate assessment of Taylor IMO.
A very good RB, but not a great or elite RB.
He is a luxury for our team, and I'm glad we have him, but losing him wouldn't be the end of the world.
I've argued this in a number of other threads, but if AD has another great year, and Chester's carries continues to decrease, he should go look for greener pastures, and we should look at finding a good RB in the later rounds of the draft to fill his role and reduce the salary at this position.
Give his money to AD to ensure we lock him up long time, or spend it on a TE (doh!).

Chester will help us a lot in '08 and I'm glad he's here, but wouldn't be surprised to see him gone after next season.


Most under-rated, maybe Leber needs a vote in this category.
He's not an elite player by any means, but he has come up big in a number of games for us and quietly does a very good job of holding down his position.
Honorable mention B-Wade.
Even though he signed a decent contract that should put a little more focus on him to be a solid contributor on this team, he seems to really get downplayed with his role on our offense.
I think he has done well on this passing challenged team of doing what he is being asked to do. He was as dependable as any receiver on our team last year.
Doesn't mean I think he is great, just a solid player that goes about his business and fills his role nicely without being recognized.


I'm not sure why you make out 1000 yards rushing to be such a big deal. Never did I say "Chester was good because he rushed for over 1000 yards." Anyways, I guess I'll roll with it.

Chester Taylor is much much much more than just a solid spell back. Mentioning his name in the same sentence as Mewelde Moore, Ladell Betts and marginal guys like that is rediculous. His longevity has been incredible. His ability to step in midway through a game, or start for a few games midseason, and still produce a major impact, is awesome. Sure he might be "replaceable" but he is also totally underrated. I would take him over Rudi Johnson, Thomas Jones, McGahee, Droughns, Parker, Ronnie Brown, Tatum Bell, Cadillac, Julius, Betts, and Dunn any day.