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View Full Version : BESIDES TJACK! What is our biggest weakness?



mountainviking
05-31-2008, 12:43 PM
PLEASE!
For the love of God, leave the TJack discussion in the other threads...we've already been through what we think he brings (or doesn't) to the team several times...and pretty much come to the conclusion we won't know til September or later.
I just want to take off the purple goggles for awhile and look at the rest of our beloved 2008 Minnesota VIKINGS and talk about what our biggest weaknesses going forward might be.


I'm leaving Injuries and Luck off the list, cuz the first can happen to any team at any time and swiftly devastate a playoff team to where they're barely competing, much less playoff bound; and I'm afraid too many of us just might pick how the ball bounces and the refs hate us, while I'd rather look more closely at the actual team and the pieces we have in place.
;)

What is most likely to give the 2008 Vikings problems, and either keep them out, or knock them out of the playoffs??



***I'm open to suggestions.
If I missed an option you think should be there, Wait to Vote, and just let me know, and we'll look at if it fits somwhere, or needs its own spot...I'm sure theres an infinite amount of things we could divide into
;D

dcboardr41
05-31-2008, 12:47 PM
I voted for the OL, but with that choice i mean the OTs. Is BMac gonna get suspended? If so for how long, and then can Chase Johnson/Artis Hicks fill it for 2-4 games. And when BMac comes back, can he get better at pass protection. And then on the other side, we saw some improvement from Cook at RT last year, but can he learn more this year? Last year was his 1st year plays T, and his 1st starting in the NFL, i believe he will have a solid year this year.

Purple Floyd
05-31-2008, 12:51 PM
OL. No question.

That being said, the team has the time to still add depth there before the season and they have addressed all of the other problems so far so I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt that if talent becomes available, they will go after them.

mountainviking
05-31-2008, 01:11 PM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


OL. No question.

That being said, the team has the time to still add depth there before the season and they have addressed all of the other problems so far so I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt that if talent becomes available, they will go after them.

Totally could happen.
But whats the chances that guy can come in and pick up our "complicated zone hybrid system" in time to contribute this year?


I'm voting OL too.
Better pass blocking would help whoever is QB...and I'd really like to see the presnap penalties eliminated.
I'm stoked with the defense in general, and like what Frazier was doing last year, so no worries there!
I was a bit concerned about Tapeh taking over for Tony, but they signed him long term, so they must like him, and we know Dugan can crack some skullz blocking if needed.

Vikes_King
05-31-2008, 01:23 PM
Offensive line as it stands right now, we MAY have the players in camp, but as of right now we don't know how they'll fair on the field.
Our depth is questionable

Purple Floyd
05-31-2008, 01:23 PM
"mountainviking" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


OL. No question.

That being said, the team has the time to still add depth there before the season and they have addressed all of the other problems so far so I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt that if talent becomes available, they will go after them.

Totally could happen.
But whats the chances that guy can come in and pick up our "complicated zone hybrid system" in time to contribute this year?


I'm voting OL too.
Better pass blocking would help whoever is QB...and I'd really like to see the presnap penalties eliminated.
I'm stoked with the defense in general, and like what Frazier was doing last year, so no worries there!
I was a bit concerned about Tapeh taking over for Tony, but they signed him long term, so they must like him, and we know Dugan can crack some skullz blocking if needed.


The chances are greater if we get someone who comes from a team that uses the same blocking style we do. There are other teams who do and that is where I would focus. While the blocking may be more complicated than some, it isn't rocket science and other teams have shown that you can bring guys in and have them function properly from the start if you have the right coaches and get the right players.

tb04512
05-31-2008, 01:27 PM
OL, especially if mckinnie is suspended

marstc09
05-31-2008, 02:35 PM
I am going with offensive play calling. Most of us know that the vanilla offense we saw last year will keep us from advancing in the playoffs. Too predictable IMO. Smart coaches win Super Bowls.

mountainviking
05-31-2008, 02:47 PM
I'm concerned about that too, but think our young guys maturity level and comfort with the system will help open the playbook too.

Another concern I'm surprised no one's mentioned is the LB/mid zone coverage...which definitely seemed a weakness last season.
Guess we're all assuming Jared Allen helps that too by bringing pressure himself and allowing more coverage there with less blitzs.

kevoncox
05-31-2008, 04:55 PM
Offensive play calling. We must lean what 4 WR sets look like. We must learn what a screen looks like. Me must stop running up the gut when everyone and the watercooler is waiting for the handoff.
Can i see an audible at the line please?

<object width="425" height="355"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oVh0n03DnjQ&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Mr-holland
05-31-2008, 05:01 PM
I can hardly call TJ a weakness, he is just not on the same level as some of our other players but we'll see this season ;)

I voted o-line, depth is not big

gregair13
05-31-2008, 06:07 PM
tapeh is clearly not as good or experienced as richardson.

dcboardr41
05-31-2008, 06:10 PM
"gregair13" wrote:


tapeh is clearly not as good or experienced as richardson.



thats what worries u the most goin into this season????

kevoncox
05-31-2008, 06:53 PM
"dcboardr41" wrote:


"gregair13" wrote:


tapeh is clearly not as good or experienced as richardson.



thats what worries u the most goin into this season????


We are a run first team right. It's diffcult when you lose an All pro...probowl...hall of fame FB.

jmcdon00
05-31-2008, 07:17 PM
How about QB depth. There is a very good chance that tjack will miss some game time this year. Weather it is 1 4th quarter or 12 games, the backup QB is an important position and I don't trust either of the backups.

gregair13
05-31-2008, 07:30 PM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"dcboardr41" wrote:


"gregair13" wrote:


tapeh is clearly not as good or experienced as richardson.



thats what worries u the most goin into this season????


We are a run first team right. It's diffcult when you lose an All pro...probowl...hall of fame FB.


the most worried about? i am not sure about that, but i am for sure worried about it. look and TRs resume and who he has blocked for in his career. pretty much all pro bowlers. as kevon says, he is going to the HoF. How good was the chiefs running game last year? no where near as good as it was with TR. sure you can pull the injury arguement into it and the lesser overall team for the chiefs, but how much of that influence was from TR? if you rb isnt taking the first hit in the backfield, that means your fullback is doing your job. when the RB takes the first hit, the odds of getting hurt increase.

StillPurple
06-01-2008, 02:03 AM
Good topic. I voted for "offensive play calling".

Here is my list of biggest weaknesses for us for 2008, outside of Tarvaris:

1. Offensive playcalling and inability to adjust to what the defense is giving us
2. Inability to throw short passes and passes to running backs
3. Lack of an effective underneath passing game (slants, 10- and 15-yard routes, etc.)
4. Defensive short and middle range pass defense (inability to press receivers at the line)
5. The entire special teams play
6. Lack of a pass rush ! (ALLEN will end that !
;D)

We need to address these issues. The "conservative" (I am being diplomatic here) play calling on offense is a major issue. I don't think we need to go back to the Linehan days of our WR rolling out and throwing to another WR in their red zone, but one rush off tackle after another into a stacked box is no longer going to make it in the NFL.

StillPurple
06-01-2008, 02:10 AM
Just curious, we had a running back who tore the league up last year, including vs. some of the best defensive front sevens (San Diego, Chicago, etc.).

So why do you think our O-line is a major issue ?

mountainviking
06-01-2008, 10:32 AM
The OL issue is all about the passing game and McKinnie's possible suspension.
Then, we're also counting on Birk and Cook to play better there too.
Sure, No.1 rushing team is a great accomplishment for our OL, but if they don't start pass blocking better, it might not matter who our QB is...and it won't get us a playoff win on its own.
Then again, some of those slants and other quick outs from the QB/playcalling will help the OL look better too!

jessejames09
06-01-2008, 10:37 AM
I was going to vote 'TE' but then I noticed the word 'skillz' at part of that option. I don't think skillz are really a problem, how well do they have to be able to rhyme to have skillz anyways?

VikingsTw
06-01-2008, 02:33 PM
For those of you who feel losing FB Tony Richardson is a disaster waiting to happen do more research on Thomas Topeh. IMO we could have easily had Richardson signed back *IF* we wanted him but instead we opted to go after a younger version of Tony. Topeh is very sound blocker, a very unselfish player who has blocked and succeeded for many good RB's. In college he blocked for Laurance Maroney and Marion Barber, in the pros he blocked for Westbrook. He brings more explosiveness in his abitly to catch the football and do something afterward. I like the pickup and the thought of the future by our orginization. Tony was very solid but aging where as Topeh is 27 and proven.

On the subject of our weakness's I would consider the LT situation somewhat of issue considering Artis Hicks is the replacement. Personally I would like to see him and Marcus Johnson both cut from the squad but in order for that to happen we would have to see guys like Brian Daniels, Dan Mozes, Drew Rodovich, and Chase Johnson show there worth in Mini Camp. I'm really hoping Chase shows the ability to be solid, he's got very good size and was a great pass blocker in college. I think the main reason for concern along the offensive line would have to do with the inexperience.

WR's, especailly the starting two must stay healthy, after Berrian and Rice there really is nobody but maybe Allison to step into a starting role on the outside. Furgeson is a great 3 or 4 but lacks explosiveness to play outside IMO, same goes for Wade. Jaymar Johnson is a very fast WR with great elusiveness, body control and ball skills but he is young and small. Given enough time and some more weight he could see action on the outside. For this season we need the top two to stay healthy for us.

The playcalling can be somewhat of a concern but I believe it will be better this year, Tarvaris is a year better and we have solid targets at WR. Much of the playcalling issues last year are directly related to a young QB who we didn't want to ask to much of especailly given the weapons around him. I actually look for this area to improve and not be a major concern. Given more of a down field threat we should see alot more of AP catching screens and underneath passes causing the defense all kinds of trouble.

As far as specail teams is concerned I'm not concerned. With additions of Erin Henderson, Tyrell Johnson, Michael Boulware, Marice Hicks, and Jaymar Johnson we should be much improved with what we already have. Hopefully we have did enough to get guys like Winfield permanently OFF of specail teams, fresh for there primary jobs.

mountainviking
06-01-2008, 02:55 PM
Check out this short video of the fatal last offensive Vikings play of 2007...

Warning!!
Leave the sound down or hear Broncos fan screaming!
:o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W8d7yr1xCcM


Its what some of us have talked about, a spread out offense with 4 WRs.
The Broncos are in total prevent, everybody is back, our OL + RB puts us at 6 blockers to 3 defensive rushers!
TJack gets no time, hit in the back as he looks downfield, cuz Cook got beat and nobody helped him.
Birk and Herrera both kind of seem to just stand there, waiting to see if a LB is coming?
Herrera gets a DT, McKinnie and AP get the RE...seems somebody should have helped Cook.
All and all, rather sad...and case in point for why we keep a TE or FB in to block on most downs, and why our Great Running game OL isn't quite up to par in the passing game.

Purple Floyd
06-01-2008, 03:23 PM
"mountainviking" wrote:


Check out this short video of the fatal last offensive Vikings play of 2007...

Warning!!
Leave the sound down or hear Broncos fan screaming!
:o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W8d7yr1xCcM


Its what some of us have talked about, a spread out offense with 4 WRs.
The Broncos are in total prevent, everybody is back, our OL + RB puts us at 6 blockers to 3 defensive rushers!
TJack gets no time, hit in the back as he looks downfield, cuz Cook got beat and nobody helped him.
Birk and Herrera both kind of seem to just stand there, waiting to see if a LB is coming?
Herrera gets a DT, McKinnie and AP get the RE...seems somebody should have helped Cook.
All and all, rather sad...and case in point for why we keep a TE or FB in to block on most downs, and why our Great Running game OL isn't quite up to par in the passing game.


That is a classic example of why no QB we have put under center in the last 2 years has had
any success passing the ball. That is also the reason why, in spite of all of the additional talent we have brought in, that I am still nervous about the season offensively. Hopefully it all comes together.

Chazz
06-01-2008, 05:28 PM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"mountainviking" wrote:


Check out this short video of the fatal last offensive Vikings play of 2007...

Warning!!
Leave the sound down or hear Broncos fan screaming!
:o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W8d7yr1xCcM


Its what some of us have talked about, a spread out offense with 4 WRs.
The Broncos are in total prevent, everybody is back, our OL + RB puts us at 6 blockers to 3 defensive rushers!
TJack gets no time, hit in the back as he looks downfield, cuz Cook got beat and nobody helped him.
Birk and Herrera both kind of seem to just stand there, waiting to see if a LB is coming?
Herrera gets a DT, McKinnie and AP get the RE...seems somebody should have helped Cook.
All and all, rather sad...and case in point for why we keep a TE or FB in to block on most downs, and why our Great Running game OL isn't quite up to par in the passing game.


That is a classic example of why no QB we have put under center in the last 2 years has had
any success passing the ball. That is also the reason why, in spite of all of the additional talent we have brought in, that I am still nervous about the season offensively. Hopefully it all comes together.



No doubt...if we can not block Devers DL(and only 3 at that), we definately have some problems.

I don't care how good they can run block, if they can't protect the QB...we could be in for a long year.

PurpleTide
06-02-2008, 06:27 AM
I selected our O-line, simply because of our lack of proven depth. We have some young guys learng the system, but they are painfully short on experience. Hicks will probably start for Bryant if/when he gets his suspension, but if we sustain injuries to more than one starter on the o-line, we could be in trouble.

Marrdro
06-02-2008, 08:49 AM
"mountainviking" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


OL. No question.

That being said, the team has the time to still add depth there before the season and they have addressed all of the other problems so far so I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt that if talent becomes available, they will go after them.

Totally could happen.
But whats the chances that guy can come in and pick up our "complicated zone hybrid system" in time to contribute this year?


I'm voting OL too.
Better pass blocking would help whoever is QB...and I'd really like to see the presnap penalties eliminated.
I'm stoked with the defense in general, and like what Frazier was doing last year, so no worries there!
I was a bit concerned about Tapeh taking over for Tony, but they signed him long term, so they must like him, and we know Dugan can crack some skullz blocking if needed.

I wonder if Shanahan's comment of taking 5 years to install the ZB scheme is all bunk.
I see us struggling more with the man-to-man stuff more especially when it appears we audibled out of a run (ZB) play to a pass (Man to Man) play.

Think about it.
Cook didn't do to bad at it last year and he was a Rookie that was a Center in College.
Hutch seemed to grasp it pretty quickly as well.
Herrera seemed to thrive in it once he was named starter.
Mckinnie doesn't do to bad either when we are talking run blocking only.

Mckinnie (especially) and Cook had problems with the smaller/speedier DE's at times with Cook leveling off towards the end of the year.
If we can just keep improving on stopping the rush from the ends plus a few gaffs by the center on delayed blitz's up the middle I think our OL could be awesome this year.


The reps they got together last year and some intense film study during the offseason and I think the OL coaches can fix most of that.

With that said, I am still voting OL but would like to vote "All of the Above".
;D

Excellent idea for a thread by the way.

Marrdro
06-02-2008, 08:52 AM
"kevoncox" wrote:


Offensive play calling. We must lean what 4 WR sets look like. We must learn what a screen looks like. Me must stop running up the gut when everyone and the watercooler is waiting for the handoff.
Can i see an audible at the line please?

<object width="425" height="355"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oVh0n03DnjQ&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Funny, I saw lots of audibles last year.
Most of the time from run to pass and in most of those cases the OL screwed the pooch with respect to pass protection.

Kindof hard to change the play calling if it can't be executed.
::)

Marrdro
06-02-2008, 08:57 AM
"gregair13" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"dcboardr41" wrote:


"gregair13" wrote:


tapeh is clearly not as good or experienced as richardson.



thats what worries u the most goin into this season????


We are a run first team right. It's diffcult when you lose an All pro...probowl...hall of fame FB.


the most worried about? i am not sure about that, but i am for sure worried about it. look and TRs resume and who he has blocked for in his career. pretty much all pro bowlers. as kevon says, he is going to the HoF. How good was the chiefs running game last year? no where near as good as it was with TR. sure you can pull the injury arguement into it and the lesser overall team for the chiefs, but how much of that influence was from TR? if you rb isnt taking the first hit in the backfield, that means your fullback is doing your job. when the RB takes the first hit, the odds of getting hurt increase.

T-rich wasn't the only reason KC couldn't run the ball.
Take alook at the OL changes and injuries.
I think that had more to do with it than just his departure.

Marrdro
06-02-2008, 09:08 AM
"StillPurple" wrote:


Good topic. I voted for "offensive play calling".

Here is my list of biggest weaknesses for us for 2008, outside of Tarvaris:

1. Offensive playcalling and inability to adjust to what the defense is giving us
2. Inability to throw short passes and passes to running backs
3. Lack of an effective underneath passing game (slants, 10- and 15-yard routes, etc.)
4. Defensive short and middle range pass defense (inability to press receivers at the line)
5. The entire special teams play
6. Lack of a pass rush ! (ALLEN will end that !
;D)

We need to address these issues. The "conservative" (I am being diplomatic here) play calling on offense is a major issue. I don't think we need to go back to the Linehan days of our WR rolling out and throwing to another WR in their red zone, but one rush off tackle after another into a stacked box is no longer going to make it in the NFL.

You don't think your first 3 are kindof tied to OL and QB play with respect to what the coaches could call?

Entire ST play?
Not sure if I see that as such a big issue.
Two pretty reliable legs in Kluwe and Longwell (Longwell could kick deeper kickoffs though).
Coverages were alot better last year than the year before and we might have found a KR in AA and a PR in Hicks.
Kindof scratching my bald head over that one my friend.
::)

Purple Floyd
06-02-2008, 09:17 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


Offensive play calling. We must lean what 4 WR sets look like. We must learn what a screen looks like. Me must stop running up the gut when everyone and the watercooler is waiting for the handoff.
Can i see an audible at the line please?

<object width="425" height="355"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oVh0n03DnjQ&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Funny, I saw lots of audibles last year.
Most of the time from run to pass and in most of those cases the OL screwed the pooch with respect to pass protection.

Kindof hard to change the play calling if it can't be executed.
::)


Glad to see you are coming around to what singer and myself have been saying for 2 years ;)

Welcome to the club ;D

Marrdro
06-02-2008, 09:34 AM
Excellent (as always) post my friend.

"VikingsTw" wrote:


For those of you who feel losing FB Tony Richardson is a disaster waiting to happen do more research on Thomas Topeh. IMO we could have easily had Richardson signed back *IF* we wanted him but instead we opted to go after a younger version of Tony. Topeh is very sound blocker, a very unselfish player who has blocked and succeeded for many good RB's. In college he blocked for Laurance Maroney and Marion Barber, in the pros he blocked for Westbrook. He brings more explosiveness in his abitly to catch the football and do something afterward. I like the pickup and the thought of the future by our orginization. Tony was very solid but aging where as Topeh is 27 and proven.


I think the biggest reason most people feel the loss of T-rich is because he was good for so many years.
Most casual fans don't like to admit/see older Vets get released because of this.

By the end of this season all of them will be saying "T-rich Who" after they see the abilities (especially in the passing scheme) that Tapeh looks like he will bring to the game, however, we will still see alot of H-back guys in the backfield and our FB on the sidelines throughout most of the game as we saw with T-rich towards the end of last season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=901


On the subject of our weakness's I would consider the LT situation somewhat of issue considering Artis Hicks is the replacement. Personally I would like to see him and Marcus Johnson both cut from the squad but in order for that to happen we would have to see guys like Brian Daniels, Dan Mozes, Drew Rodovich, and Chase Johnson show there worth in Mini Camp. I'm really hoping Chase shows the ability to be solid, he's got very good size and was a great pass blocker in college. I think the main reason for concern along the offensive line would have to do with the inexperience.

My take on the whole Hicks thing is we are seeing him and Chase split time at LT during the OTA's.
I believe that will eventually cement in the coaches eyes what they (and most of us) have seen.
Artis is nothing more than a backup with no potential to get better.

In the past we have seen this staff is willing to roll the dice and keep the guy with potential as to the guy who has more experience, but will not get any better.


With that said, I still say Hicks will not be on the roster this year as the staff needs to make room on the OL roster for guys like Mozes, Sullivan etc.


WR's, especailly the starting two must stay healthy, after Berrian and Rice there really is nobody but maybe Allison to step into a starting role on the outside. Furgeson is a great 3 or 4 but lacks explosiveness to play outside IMO, same goes for Wade. Jaymar Johnson is a very fast WR with great elusiveness, body control and ball skills but he is young and small. Given enough time and some more weight he could see action on the outside. For this season we need the top two to stay healthy for us.

I keep looking and looking at the 53 man roster to figure out how we can keep an extra WR this year but just don't see it, especially when you look at the OL issues.
If any roster position gets an extra player it will be the OL.

Unless he beats out Ferg, I see Jaymar landing with the practice squad.
Maybe, just maybe, after a few games the staff will get comfortable with what they have behind the starters and bring Jaymar off of the practice squad.


The playcalling can be somewhat of a concern but I believe it will be better this year, Tarvaris is a year better and we have solid targets at WR. Much of the playcalling issues last year are directly related to a young QB who we didn't want to ask to much of especailly given the weapons around him. I actually look for this area to improve and not be a major concern. Given more of a down field threat we should see alot more of AP catching screens and underneath passes causing the defense all kinds of trouble.

Looks like you and I are kindof in the minority here and believe that the play calling was limited by what the QB and the OL could execute rather than because our coaching staff is clueless when it comes to how to call a game.


As far as specail teams is concerned I'm not concerned. With additions of Erin Henderson, Tyrell Johnson, Michael Boulware, Marice Hicks, and Jaymar Johnson we should be much improved with what we already have. Hopefully we have did enough to get guys like Winfield permanently OFF of specail teams, fresh for there primary jobs.

Love all the attention this staff puts on the ST's.
I do think we need to take a look at our Kicker though.
Longwell can't get it deep unless he lowers the trajectory which in turn affects the hang time.

Deep without hang time doesn't allow the coverage team enough time to get field.
Also, he did miss a couple of long FG's last year.
Can't remember his name, but that is probably why the young K was brought in.

Marrdro
06-02-2008, 09:42 AM
"mountainviking" wrote:


Check out this short video of the fatal last offensive Vikings play of 2007...

Warning!!
Leave the sound down or hear Broncos fan screaming!
:o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W8d7yr1xCcM


Its what some of us have talked about, a spread out offense with 4 WRs.
The Broncos are in total prevent, everybody is back, our OL + RB puts us at 6 blockers to 3 defensive rushers!
TJack gets no time, hit in the back as he looks downfield, cuz Cook got beat and nobody helped him.
Birk and Herrera both kind of seem to just stand there, waiting to see if a LB is coming?
Herrera gets a DT, McKinnie and AP get the RE...seems somebody should have helped Cook.
All and all, rather sad...and case in point for why we keep a TE or FB in to block on most downs, and why our Great Running game OL isn't quite up to par in the passing game.

I have watched that damn play so many times.
As with many of the QB's gaffs (so called jump balls) the OL screwed the pooch when it came to pass protection last year.

Early on in the season it was horrendous to the point that I don't think they ever once established a pocket with clear passing lanes for the QB to make his progressions/reads.

Again, I lay blame for this on the feet of two people (and coaches) when it comes to pre-snap reads......

C = His job is to make adjustments for the OL, TE's and sometimes WR with respect to the protection (who blocks who/where) of the QB based on what the Defense is showing.

QB = His job is to make adjustments for the RB, FB and sometimes WR with with respect to the protection (who blocks who/where) of the QB based on what the Defense is showing.

Again, it is pretty hard to get something out of your offense when you can't execute the basic prinicipal of things and that is to make pre-snap adjustments.

Lets hope the coaching staff works thier asses off this year in film study and reps so that they can get this right.

A wise man once said....."It all starts up front".
If the Lineman can't get it done then nothing will work behind them.

NordicNed
06-02-2008, 09:42 AM
I almost didn't click on this thread, just because , I don't believe TJ is a top weakness of ours. Matter of fact, I'm expecting a big improvement and season out of his play.


I do have concerns still about our Offensive Line and TE's.......Pretty much in that order, and I'll leave it at that.






GO VIKES,






Ned

Marrdro
06-02-2008, 09:53 AM
"Chazz" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"mountainviking" wrote:


Check out this short video of the fatal last offensive Vikings play of 2007...

Warning!!
Leave the sound down or hear Broncos fan screaming!
:o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W8d7yr1xCcM


Its what some of us have talked about, a spread out offense with 4 WRs.
The Broncos are in total prevent, everybody is back, our OL + RB puts us at 6 blockers to 3 defensive rushers!
TJack gets no time, hit in the back as he looks downfield, cuz Cook got beat and nobody helped him.
Birk and Herrera both kind of seem to just stand there, waiting to see if a LB is coming?
Herrera gets a DT, McKinnie and AP get the RE...seems somebody should have helped Cook.
All and all, rather sad...and case in point for why we keep a TE or FB in to block on most downs, and why our Great Running game OL isn't quite up to par in the passing game.


That is a classic example of why no QB we have put under center in the last 2 years has had
any success passing the ball. That is also the reason why, in spite of all of the additional talent we have brought in, that I am still nervous about the season offensively. Hopefully it all comes together.



No doubt...if we can not block Devers DL(and only 3 at that), we definately have some problems.

I don't care how good they can run block, if they can't protect the QB...we could be in for a long year.

Lets not forget that some of this falls to the QB as well.
He has to make the correct read just as the C has to make the correct read.

Purple Floyd
06-02-2008, 10:07 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"mountainviking" wrote:


Check out this short video of the fatal last offensive Vikings play of 2007...

Warning!!
Leave the sound down or hear Broncos fan screaming!
:o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W8d7yr1xCcM


Its what some of us have talked about, a spread out offense with 4 WRs.
The Broncos are in total prevent, everybody is back, our OL + RB puts us at 6 blockers to 3 defensive rushers!
TJack gets no time, hit in the back as he looks downfield, cuz Cook got beat and nobody helped him.
Birk and Herrera both kind of seem to just stand there, waiting to see if a LB is coming?
Herrera gets a DT, McKinnie and AP get the RE...seems somebody should have helped Cook.
All and all, rather sad...and case in point for why we keep a TE or FB in to block on most downs, and why our Great Running game OL isn't quite up to par in the passing game.

I have watched that damn play so many times.
As with many of the QB's gaffs (so called jump balls) the OL screwed the pooch when it came to pass protection last year.

Early on in the season it was horrendous to the point that I don't think they ever once established a pocket with clear passing lanes for the QB to make his progressions/reads.

Again, I lay blame for this on the feet of two people (and coaches) when it comes to pre-snap reads......

C = His job is to make adjustments for the OL, TE's and sometimes WR with respect to the protection (who blocks who/where) of the QB based on what the Defense is showing.

QB = His job is to make adjustments for the RB, FB and sometimes WR with with respect to the protection (who blocks who/where) of the QB based on what the Defense is showing.

Again, it is pretty hard to get something out of your offense when you can't execute the basic prinicipal of things and that is to make pre-snap adjustments.

Lets hope the coaching staff works thier asses off this year in film study and reps so that they can get this right.

A wise man once said....."It all starts up front".
If the Lineman can't get it done then nothing will work behind them.


Me too and those two guys are Mckinney and Cook. In the majority of the plays in question you will see that they had an end right in front of them and plain got beat. That wasn't because Birk or Jackson didn't tell them who to block, it was because they got their ass handed to them. There was only one option for them to block because it was straight up. Now, there were times when LB's blitzed and the blocking got FUBAR but this was not near as common as the problems with the pressure off the corner.
They had more success when they ran the 2 TE formation and I still favor that set as our base package because it provides the best pass protection and gives us the beef up front to run even against 8 in the box but it would mean your guy Wade would be on the bench because Rice and Berrian would be the 2 WR's on the field.

kevoncox
06-02-2008, 10:09 AM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


Offensive play calling. We must lean what 4 WR sets look like. We must learn what a screen looks like. Me must stop running up the gut when everyone and the watercooler is waiting for the handoff.
Can i see an audible at the line please?

<object width="425" height="355"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oVh0n03DnjQ&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Funny, I saw lots of audibles last year.
Most of the time from run to pass and in most of those cases the OL screwed the pooch with respect to pass protection.

Kindof hard to change the play calling if it can't be executed.

::)


Marr, I forgot it's the O-Line's fault. I lay the blame 60 - 40 my friend. 60 Qb -40 O'line. I expect that we will balance out.
The Mac hate on this board is crazy.

Marrdro
06-02-2008, 10:10 AM
"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"mountainviking" wrote:


Check out this short video of the fatal last offensive Vikings play of 2007...

Warning!!
Leave the sound down or hear Broncos fan screaming!
:o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W8d7yr1xCcM


Its what some of us have talked about, a spread out offense with 4 WRs.
The Broncos are in total prevent, everybody is back, our OL + RB puts us at 6 blockers to 3 defensive rushers!
TJack gets no time, hit in the back as he looks downfield, cuz Cook got beat and nobody helped him.
Birk and Herrera both kind of seem to just stand there, waiting to see if a LB is coming?
Herrera gets a DT, McKinnie and AP get the RE...seems somebody should have helped Cook.
All and all, rather sad...and case in point for why we keep a TE or FB in to block on most downs, and why our Great Running game OL isn't quite up to par in the passing game.

I have watched that gol 'darnit play so many times.
As with many of the QB's gaffs (so called jump balls) the OL screwed the pooch when it came to pass protection last year.

Early on in the season it was horrendous to the point that I don't think they ever once established a pocket with clear passing lanes for the QB to make his progressions/reads.

Again, I lay blame for this on the feet of two people (and coaches) when it comes to pre-snap reads......

C = His job is to make adjustments for the OL, TE's and sometimes WR with respect to the protection (who blocks who/where) of the QB based on what the Defense is showing.

QB = His job is to make adjustments for the RB, FB and sometimes WR with with respect to the protection (who blocks who/where) of the QB based on what the Defense is showing.

Again, it is pretty hard to get something out of your offense when you can't execute the basic prinicipal of things and that is to make pre-snap adjustments.

Lets hope the coaching staff works thier dimply buttocks off this year in film study and reps so that they can get this right.

A wise man once said....."It all starts up front".
If the Lineman can't get it done then nothing will work behind them.


Me too and those two guys are Mckinney and Cook. In the majority of the plays in question you will see that they had an end right in front of them and plain got beat. That wasn't because Birk or Jackson didn't tell them who to block, it was because they got their jiggly butt handed to them. There was only one option for them to block because it was straight up. Now, there were times when LB's blitzed and the blocking got FUBAR but this was not near as common as the problems with the pressure off the corner.
They had more success when they ran the 2 TE formation and I still favor that set as our base package because it provides the best pass protection and gives us the beef up front to run even against 8 in the box but it would mean your guy Wade would be on the bench because Rice and Berrian would be the 2 WR's on the field.

Don't get me wrong, I am unhappy with both thier play at times this year, but if this is the play I think it is, Cook engages the same guy AD was gonna engage with left both of them standing thier scratching thier asses.

Again, not so much a thing as they got beat but rather they weren't blocking the right guy.
That falls to the C (Cook get his adjustment/assignment/zone) and QB (AD gets his adj/ass/zone).

mountainviking
06-02-2008, 10:42 AM
I guess I didn't make it clear enough, Sorry for any confusion, BUT I'm NOT ripping TJack at all!
I just wanted to start a discussion about something else...leave him as an option, and we've got the same discussion here as everywhere else.
All the talking heads and pundits seem to pick him as the weak link, which to me, is the easy answer, requiring little thought or effort.
Of course the fate of the team is in the hands of the QB!
And, TJack is still young and unproven, so he gets all the attention.
But, from what we're hearing, his comfort and confidence in the system, is "night and day," better than last year.
IMHO, he's only 1 of 22 starters, and it looks to me, like we may be finding, "the rest of the story."

? Maybe I should change the title to What is our Biggest weakness? (!You can't pick TJack!)

As I've read through this thread, and let it sink in for a few days, I do still think OL is our biggest concern, but I've got to say that I'm surprised no one picked our LBs/mid zone coverage.
Seems we were beat more across the middle (slants ect) than we were deep the past 2 seasons.
Assuming we get the pass rush from Allen we're paying for, it should be better, but it remains to be seen, that Greenway, Leber, and/or EJ can consistently cover those routes...and, as much as I love Winfield's open field tackling, he often makes the tackle right after the reception, and sometimes, that's too late...ie first down.
Sure, more rush means we can keep that blitzer back in coverage, but, that mid/under zone has been killing us lately, and I hope Frazier and his boys are studying that problem too!!

Back to the OL, just what the hell are we running?
Zone run blocking and Man pass blocking????
Perhaps the scheme is part of the problem?
Or at least when switching (via audible) from one to the other?
I mean, it would seem that all offenses use concepts from both...take your guy out, then help out your buddy.
I guess this problem is why some (Marrdro
;) ) would really like to see Birk in camp, But, doesn't it also fall on the coaches to diagnose the problem, define its parameters, and find a way to "coach up" our players on how to fix it...?

Marrdro
06-02-2008, 10:53 AM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


Offensive play calling. We must lean what 4 WR sets look like. We must learn what a screen looks like. Me must stop running up the gut when everyone and the watercooler is waiting for the handoff.
Can i see an audible at the line please?

<object width="425" height="355"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oVh0n03DnjQ&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Funny, I saw lots of audibles last year.
Most of the time from run to pass and in most of those cases the OL screwed the pooch with respect to pass protection.

Kindof hard to change the play calling if it can't be executed.

::)


Marr, I forgot it's the O-Line's fault. I lay the blame 60 - 40 my friend. 60 Qb -40 O'line. I expect that we will balance out.
The Mac hate on this board is crazy.

I would agree with that split.

As I've said repeatedly, it is expected for a young QB to get fooled by defensive schemes.
Its the reason they suck at times.
The good thing is that most of them learned to read defenses through reps and lots of film study.

As for the Mac hate, not sure if I would lable it that bad but you have to admit Big Mac has peaked out with respect to his level of play.
He is about as good as he will ever get and that isn't half bad when one thinks about it, however, the staff should start looking at a guy to eventually replace him in order to alleviate some of the edge rushers he tends to have difficulties with so that they don't have to chip/help as much as they do.

Again, not hate but rather some good discussions on what needs to happen to make this team better.


By the way, I for one have taken alot of heat for even mentioning that Birk might need to be replaced, why would you think that I wouldn't also mention Mac?
;D

Marrdro
06-02-2008, 11:00 AM
"mountainviking" wrote:


I guess I didn't make it clear enough, Sorry for any confusion, BUT I'm NOT ripping TJack at all!
I just wanted to start a discussion about something else...leave him as an option, and we've got the same discussion here as everywhere else.
All the talking heads and pundits seem to pick him as the weak link, which to me, is the easy answer, requiring little thought or effort.
Of course the fate of the team is in the hands of the QB!
And, TJack is still young and unproven, so he gets all the attention.
But, from what we're hearing, his comfort and confidence in the system, is "night and day," better than last year.
IMHO, he's only 1 of 22 starters, and it looks to me, like we may be finding, "the rest of the story."

? Maybe I should change the title to What is our Biggest weakness? (!You can't pick TJack!)

As I've read through this thread, and let it sink in for a few days, I do still think OL is our biggest concern, but I've got to say that I'm surprised no one picked our LBs/mid zone coverage.
Seems we were beat more across the middle (slants ect) than we were deep the past 2 seasons.
Assuming we get the pass rush from Allen we're paying for, it should be better, but it remains to be seen, that Greenway, Leber, and/or EJ can consistently cover those routes...and, as much as I love Winfield's open field tackling, he often makes the tackle right after the reception, and sometimes, that's too late...ie first down.
Sure, more rush means we can keep that blitzer back in coverage, but, that mid/under zone has been killing us lately, and I hope Frazier and his boys are studying that problem too!!

Back to the OL, just what the hell are we running?
Zone run blocking and Man pass blocking????
Perhaps the scheme is part of the problem?
Or at least when switching (via audible) from one to the other?
I mean, it would seem that all offenses use concepts from both...take your guy out, then help out your buddy.
I guess this problem is why some (Marrdro
;) ) would really like to see Birk in camp, But, doesn't it also fall on the coaches to diagnose the problem, define its parameters, and find a way to "coach up" our players on how to fix it...?

Adequately articulated on your TJ comment my friend.

As to your question on the blocking scheme, we run a mix of both as do most of the teams that are incorporating the ZB scheme into thier offense in an effort to exploit the one cutback running style that seems to be very productive and resort to man-to-man for straight up passing plays.

Again, I believe that some film study and work by the players with the coaches should alleviate some of the confusion caused when they switch between the two.


In short, no need to scrap a scheme that they have put a few years into installing.
As you pointed out........Let the coaches work with the players and fix it.

Freya
06-02-2008, 11:29 AM
Really offensive, offensive play calling.

Offensively offensive. even.

Really. I'm offended most games.

Mr Anderson
06-02-2008, 12:04 PM
I think offensive playcalling is resultant of lackluster QB play.

If Jackson steps up his game, I think Chilly's playbook will expand about another hundred pages.



For now, I think the biggest problem is the questions at offensive line, mainly McKinnie. It's a lot easier for a backup center to step in and block. With Hutch on the line next to him, he won't have to be a leader, he'll just step in and do his easiest blocking assignments on the offensive line. Generally in a zone blocking system the center does the same thing every play, and that's assist the guard to his left or right, or get down field and block a LB. Also, in pass blocking they have limited space to work with, and most of the times don't even have to pick up a man one-on-one if there is no blitz.

While an offensive tackle, especially on the left side in the NFL, has a lot of pressure on his back. Most of the time, speed rushers come off of his side, the elite defensive ends play the QB's blind side, and that's who must come in and be stopped. McKinnie did a great job grading the road for Peterson last year, and his absence would be greatly missed in the running game. He looked very shaky at times in his pass blocking as well, but our passing game would still be seriously damaged if we lose him.

Cook's game has seriously improved over hte past year so I'm not overly concerned about him. However, if McKinnie is suspended, which I can't imagine he won't be, we're in trouble on the left side.

bleedpurple
06-02-2008, 12:14 PM
"mountainviking" wrote:


I guess I didn't make it clear enough, Sorry for any confusion, BUT I'm NOT ripping TJack at all!
I just wanted to start a discussion about something else...leave him as an option, and we've got the same discussion here as everywhere else.
All the talking heads and pundits seem to pick him as the weak link, which to me, is the easy answer, requiring little thought or effort.
Of course the fate of the team is in the hands of the QB!
And, TJack is still young and unproven, so he gets all the attention.
But, from what we're hearing, his comfort and confidence in the system, is "night and day," better than last year.
IMHO, he's only 1 of 22 starters, and it looks to me, like we may be finding, "the rest of the story."

? Maybe I should change the title to What is our Biggest weakness? (!You can't pick TJack!)

As I've read through this thread, and let it sink in for a few days, I do still think OL is our biggest concern, but I've got to say that I'm surprised no one picked our LBs/mid zone coverage.
Seems we were beat more across the middle (slants ect) than we were deep the past 2 seasons.
Assuming we get the pass rush from Allen we're paying for, it should be better, but it remains to be seen, that Greenway, Leber, and/or EJ can consistently cover those routes...and, as much as I love Winfield's open field tackling, he often makes the tackle right after the reception, and sometimes, that's too late...ie first down.
Sure, more rush means we can keep that blitzer back in coverage, but, that mid/under zone has been killing us lately, and I hope Frazier and his boys are studying that problem too!!

Back to the OL, just what the hell are we running?
Zone run blocking and Man pass blocking????
Perhaps the scheme is part of the problem?
Or at least when switching (via audible) from one to the other?
I mean, it would seem that all offenses use concepts from both...take your guy out, then help out your buddy.
I guess this problem is why some (Marrdro
;) ) would really like to see Birk in camp, But, doesn't it also fall on the coaches to diagnose the problem, define its parameters, and find a way to "coach up" our players on how to fix it...?


I agree with you a little in that our LB's pass coverage could be better... i think alot of that had to do with Greenway being virtually a rookie, he was beat in coverage often times last year!.. but I think he'll improve... I also think next year we could use a more athletic LB to replace / learn from Leber.. he just seems stiff to me... but he's not bad!!
I think we could improve on our athleticism in that area!!...

C Mac D
06-02-2008, 12:17 PM
http://www.kare11.com/assetpool/images/0691720141_childress%209-17.jpg

Chazz
06-02-2008, 04:03 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"Chazz" wrote:


"UffDaVikes" wrote:


"mountainviking" wrote:


Check out this short video of the fatal last offensive Vikings play of 2007...

Warning!!
Leave the sound down or hear Broncos fan screaming!
:o

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W8d7yr1xCcM


Its what some of us have talked about, a spread out offense with 4 WRs.
The Broncos are in total prevent, everybody is back, our OL + RB puts us at 6 blockers to 3 defensive rushers!
TJack gets no time, hit in the back as he looks downfield, cuz Cook got beat and nobody helped him.
Birk and Herrera both kind of seem to just stand there, waiting to see if a LB is coming?
Herrera gets a DT, McKinnie and AP get the RE...seems somebody should have helped Cook.
All and all, rather sad...and case in point for why we keep a TE or FB in to block on most downs, and why our Great Running game OL isn't quite up to par in the passing game.


That is a classic example of why no QB we have put under center in the last 2 years has had
any success passing the ball. That is also the reason why, in spite of all of the additional talent we have brought in, that I am still nervous about the season offensively. Hopefully it all comes together.



No doubt...if we can not block Devers DL(and only 3 at that), we definately have some problems.

I don't care how good they can run block, if they can't protect the QB...we could be in for a long year.

Lets not forget that some of this falls to the QB as well.
He has to make the correct read just as the C has to make the correct read.



Oh...I know and I agree. Birk was in no way deserving of the Pro-Bowl last year...IMO.

Hell...we could just get Peyton and have him direct the OL blocking.
;) ;D ;D ;D ;D

marstc09
06-02-2008, 04:17 PM
"C" wrote:


http://www.kare11.com/assetpool/images/0691720141_childress%209-17.jpg


He kinda looks like John Locke from Lost.

kevoncox
06-02-2008, 04:22 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


"C" wrote:


http://www.kare11.com/assetpool/images/0691720141_childress%209-17.jpg


He kinda looks like John Locke from Lost.


Is about as misguided as Locke as well.

marstc09
06-02-2008, 04:27 PM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"C" wrote:


http://www.kare11.com/assetpool/images/0691720141_childress%209-17.jpg


He kinda looks like John Locke from Lost.


Is about as misguided as Locke as well.


You can say that again. LMFAO! Maybe he will end up finished like Locke to.

Mr Anderson
06-02-2008, 04:35 PM
"marstc09" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"C" wrote:


http://www.kare11.com/assetpool/images/0691720141_childress%209-17.jpg


He kinda looks like John Locke from Lost.


Is about as misguided as Locke as well.


You can say that again. LMFAO! Maybe he will end up finished like Locke to.


I recommend you delete that, I'm sure there are people who haven't seen the finale, had I not already, I would have freaked out there. I know it's not a direct spoiler, but it hints at things.

I already had a major, major, major part of The Wire(far better than Lost, well, it's better than every other show, might I add) and I was super pissed and don't want the same to happen to anyone else.

I'll delete this quote/post as well if you do the same to remove all evidence of spoilers.

vikingivan
06-04-2008, 12:12 PM
"C" wrote:


http://www.kare11.com/assetpool/images/0691720141_childress%209-17.jpg


That says it all.
He is our biggest weakness.

NordicNed
06-04-2008, 12:17 PM
"vikingivan" wrote:


"C" wrote:


http://www.kare11.com/assetpool/images/0691720141_childress%209-17.jpg


That says it all.
He is our biggest weakness.





I don't think so..... 8)

Purple D
06-04-2008, 12:52 PM
"vikingivan" wrote:


"C" wrote:


http://www.kare11.com/assetpool/images/0691720141_childress%209-17.jpg


That says it all.
He is our biggest weakness.


I think fans that don't trust the vikings and there coach are our biggest weakness.
We need to be supporting our purple no matter who is running the show here. ;D

El Vikingo
06-04-2008, 01:20 PM
"Purple" wrote:




I think fans that don't trust the vikings and there coach are our biggest weakness.
We need to be supporting our purple no matter who is ruining the show here. ;D



You got that rite Chilly is RUINING the show with his boring playbook
:-X

VikingsTw
06-04-2008, 01:49 PM
"El" wrote:


"Purple" wrote:




I think fans that don't trust the vikings and there coach are our biggest weakness.
We need to be supporting our purple no matter who is ruining the show here. ;D



You got that rite Chilly is RUINING the show with his boring playbook

:-X



Chilly knows what he's doin, he understands the game of football and he understand clock managment. The Moss days were great but we are looking to sutain longer drives by keeping our offense on the field and our defense off the field and vise versa for the opossing team.

IMO its not boring if we could do 5 to 8 min drives every possesion we would have the defense so worn down we will see plenty of explosive plays by our WR's and RB's.

El Vikingo
06-04-2008, 01:51 PM
"VikingsTw" wrote:


"El" wrote:


"Purple" wrote:




I think fans that don't trust the vikings and there coach are our biggest weakness.
We need to be supporting our purple no matter who is ruining the show here. ;D



You got that rite Chilly is RUINING the show with his boring playbook

:-X



Chilly knows what he's doin, he understands the game of football and he understand clock managment. The Moss days were great but we are looking to sutain longer drives by keeping our offense on the field and our defense off the field and vise versa for the opossing team.

IMO its not boring if we could do 5 to 8 min drives every possesion we would have the defense so worn down we will see plenty of explosive plays by our WR's and RB's.


I was being sarcastic .....
::)

BloodyHorns82
06-04-2008, 02:08 PM
"Mr" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"kevoncox" wrote:


"marstc09" wrote:


"C" wrote:


http://www.kare11.com/assetpool/images/0691720141_childress%209-17.jpg


He kinda looks like John Locke from Lost.


Is about as misguided as Locke as well.


You can say that again. LMFAO! Maybe he will end up finished like Locke to.


I recommend you delete that, I'm sure there are people who haven't seen the finale, had I not already, I would have freaked out there. I know it's not a direct spoiler, but it hints at things.

I already had a major, major, major part of The Wire(far better than Lost, well, it's better than every other show, might I add) and I was super pissed and don't want the same to happen to anyone else.

I'll delete this quote/post as well if you do the same to remove all evidence of spoilers.


FUCK!
Now it's spoiled for me.
ALthough I must admit Mr. Anderson, I probably wouldnt even have noticed Marstc comment if you didn't quote it and mention it was in reference to the finale.
;)

Oh well, crazy shit happens all the time on that show...although Locke is one of the better charactors IMO.

NordicNed
06-04-2008, 02:51 PM
BESIDES TJACK! What is our biggest weakness?

Since the question ask
WHAT? and Not WHO?......



I'm going to add our Stadium to the biggest weakness list.



I believe a bright new modern stadium would do wonders for the Vikings Org., and their spirits !



I know it would pump me up as a fan to see them take on a bright new stadium for sure

;)