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CrazyAtMSU
12-26-2004, 11:53 AM
At what point do you think we need to make a big trade to help the defense so we can win now?

The offensive talent is there, without a doubt. It says something for the offense when you have the second worst (behind KC) defense in the league and can still put up 8 or 9 wins. We can obviously get something for one or two or our running backs, but maybe we need to make a big trade (Skins/Broncos type thing). I wouldn't say trade Pep, he is a damn good QB and I don't think Gus could take us anywhere big without a stellar D. What about Moss? It kills me to even be saying this because he is without a doubt the best WR in the league. No other player influences a defense like he does. When hes on his game, he takes 2 or 3 defenders down the field with him every time and still comes up with big yards and TD's. But we have seen that our offense can survive without him.

Another possible problem is player personalities. I'm not in the locker room and out on the practice field every day but it seems to me that he is one of the leaders of this team. How would getting rid of a guy like that impact your team?

These are just suggestions, i'm not saying to get rid of anyone (well, accept a RB because its just waste to have 4 good ones). Just wondering what you all thought

ultravikingfan
12-26-2004, 12:31 PM
I think that we can sacrifice some players. Hovan, Bennett, and maybe some others. Ok, we draft another key defensice player (and hope he is worth it), trade some guys like thones mentioned above and get at least 2 players, and then we go out and sign a free agent. If we are lucky, we can get 4 good defensive players. Those 4 with Williams, Udeze, Johnstone, Johnson, Winfeild, and Claiborne give us 10 players on the D that will not suck. Now, we will have injuries and not everybody will live up to their expectations. This is all wishful thinking.
I would never trade Pep, we do not want to back peddle into the days of Gannon, Salsbury, etc.

muchluv4smoot
12-26-2004, 12:48 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:

I think that we can sacrifice some players. Hovan, Bennett, and maybe some others. Ok, we draft another key defensice player (and hope he is worth it), trade some guys like thones mentioned above and get at least 2 players, and then we go out and sign a free agent. If we are lucky, we can get 4 good defensive players. Those 4 with Williams, Udeze, Johnstone, Johnson, Winfeild, and Claiborne give us 10 players on the D that will not suck. Now, we will have injuries and not everybody will live up to their expectations. This is all wishful thinking.
I would never trade Pep, we do not want to back peddle into the days of Gannon, Salsbury, etc.



Trading moss or daunte would put us in salary cap hell. The only reason washington and denver were able to make that big trade was because both portis and champ didn't have big contracts, they were about to sign their big contracts. Moss and daunte both have their huge contracts.

The only real trade we will be able to make is trade either bennett or onterrio for a draft pick, or maybe a decent safety, CB, or LB. Players in their final year of their contract and who are looking for a big contract that their current team isn't willing to give them(like champ bailey and washington). Although, then red would have to be willing to open his pocket book and give a big contract to whoever we traded for.

The most realistic trade would be bennett or onterrio for a draft pick. Hopefully one high enough to allow us to trade up in the first round and select a good D player like antrel rolle, derrick johnson or carlos rogers.

muchluv4smoot
12-26-2004, 12:49 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:

I think that we can sacrifice some players. Hovan, Bennett, and maybe some others. Ok, we draft another key defensice player (and hope he is worth it), trade some guys like thones mentioned above and get at least 2 players, and then we go out and sign a free agent. If we are lucky, we can get 4 good defensive players. Those 4 with Williams, Udeze, Johnstone, Johnson, Winfeild, and Claiborne give us 10 players on the D that will not suck. Now, we will have injuries and not everybody will live up to their expectations. This is all wishful thinking.
I would never trade Pep, we do not want to back peddle into the days of Gannon, Salsbury, etc.



Everyone keeps saying trade hovan, but we can't. He is a free agent at the end of the year. Good riddens to him.

jackyl
12-26-2004, 12:52 PM
With close to 30 mil in cap room, trading Daunte or Moss isn't even a necessity. There's the room to buy any free agent on the market next year if Red was willing to spend.

muchluv4smoot
12-26-2004, 12:57 PM
"jackyl" wrote:

With close to 30 mil in cap room, trading Daunte or Moss isn't even a necessity. There's the room to buy any free agent on the market next year if Red was willing to spend.


The great thing is, we will be so far under the cap, that red will have to pay at least one player, a huge contract, like he did for winfield this year. Every team needs to pay a minimum $ amount, and red needed to pay someone a huge contract to meet that minumum last offseason. Thus that is the reason why we gave winfield a suprisingly huge contract. The same thing will have to happen again this next year. I wonder what good safeties, CB's, DT's or LB's our gonna be FA's next offseason. I haven't looked up who the FA's will be. Obviously all the franchised players will again be FA's.

jackyl
12-26-2004, 12:58 PM
Woodson is gonna be free... not sure how good he still is though.

muchluv4smoot
12-26-2004, 01:05 PM
"jackyl" wrote:

Woodson is gonna be free... not sure how good he still is though.


I'd take him in a second. Move brian williams to safety and have woodson and winfield as our CB's. Damn that would be awesome! Didn't woodson sign that big contract with the raiders? ESPN was reporting that he was gonna but I don't remember him signing it, but he might have?

jackyl
12-26-2004, 01:07 PM
Christmas day I heard that he hadn't. The franchise tag would have to be used again as he's looking for like 11 million a year, and with only 2 ints it doesn't look like Oakland is willing to do that.

VikingsTw
12-26-2004, 01:14 PM
He leads the raiders with tackles and he's a great cover corner. He's still young, he had the locker room attitude problem but there's no doubt i would take a chance. He's a football player. If we can get someone in there with winfield that is a really really good corner i would be thrilled.

Some things concern me about him, the other day him and a teamate got drunk, got in a womens back seat of her car and wouldn't get out. Hmmmm, makes you think about getting a guy like fred smoot, i dont watch him play all the time but i heard he's solid.

muchluv4smoot
12-26-2004, 01:16 PM
"jackyl" wrote:

Christmas day I heard that he hadn't. The franchise tag would have to be used again as he's looking for like 11 million a year, and with only 2 ints it doesn't look like Oakland is willing to do that.


That would be awesome! Regardless of what his int #'s are or have been, the guy is a shutdown CB. Sure, he gets beat from time to time, but all shutdown CB's do. Look at champ bailey this year. I have seen him torched so much this year, for TD's. But he is still a damn good CB and shuts guys down as well. also, when you are a shutdown CB, you are constantly covering the best WR's in the game, so you are gonna get beat, especially with the way the officials are calling pass int or illegal contact this year.

jackyl
12-26-2004, 01:21 PM
No doubt that he's still really solid and one of the top 5 out there probably. His off the field actions are a little to worry about, but that would be my only concern with the guy overall I think.

muchluv4smoot
12-26-2004, 01:26 PM
"jackyl" wrote:

No doubt that he's still really solid and one of the top 5 out there probably. His off the field actions are a little to worry about, but that would be my only concern with the guy overall I think.


I don't see us spending a bunch of cash on another CB next offseason though. We will probably use it on a DT or LB. Personally I want us to get a stud safety, maybe through the draft though. Ernest shazor from michigan should be available when we pick mid top late 1st round. Also, marlon jackson has played both Cb and safety at michigan and done both well. He would be a great cover saftey.

jackyl
12-26-2004, 01:29 PM
I think that a safety would be the best.... a great safety can compensate for a weaker corner more so that vise-a-versa. Too bad that Red wouldn't pony up for both. I think that overall the D line is the least of the concerns. LB/DB need to be addressed first.

muchluv4smoot
12-26-2004, 01:36 PM
"jackyl" wrote:

I think that a safety would be the best.... a great safety can compensate for a weaker corner more so that vise-a-versa. Too bad that Red wouldn't pony up for both. I think that overall the D line is the least of the concerns. LB/DB need to be addressed first.


I don't think we need a DT badly, but with hovan gone, will they think they need to get a good DT to replace him? We see what a great DT tandem does for a D, like in carolina or jacksonville. It could possibly take our D to the next level, with another LB and safety/CB.

I would rather get a safety or Lb though, but at the same time I don't think spencer johnson is the answer for us at DT. He is a good filler at DT to give guys some rest, but not a star DT to play a ton of time next to williams IMO.

VikingsTw
12-26-2004, 01:41 PM
Yeah you think about LB though, next year i hope to see Dontarius Thomas, EJ, and Claborne as our starts, thomas is freaky fast (did you see him keeping up with Cambell on his big return last week), EJ is an animal in the run game and is usually in position in the pass game just doesnt make the play. He will continue to get better and better. He's already came along ways this season, another off season and the rest of this season and he will improve. Clabornes played solid, we'll have to resign him, hes a vertan who knows how to play run and pass, he's a guy that wants to be a leader and can be because he produces on the field. I hope we keep him.

I think Saftry and CB will be our main targets this up coming draft and Free Agency. We also need to get a couple for Olineman.

muchluv4smoot
12-26-2004, 01:46 PM
"vikingstw" wrote:

Yeah you think about LB though, next year i hope to see Dontarius Thomas, EJ, and Claborne as our starts, thomas is freaky fast (did you see him keeping up with Cambell on his big return last week), EJ is an animal in the run game and is usually in position in the pass game just doesnt make the play. He will continue to get better and better. He's already came along ways this season, another off season and the rest of this season and he will improve. Clabornes played solid, we'll have to resign him, hes a vertan who knows how to play run and pass, he's a guy that wants to be a leader and can be because he produces on the field. I hope we keep him.

I think Saftry and CB will be our main targets this up coming draft and Free Agency. We also need to get a couple for Olineman.



I think claiborne is gone and I wouldn't mind it at all. I believe his contract is done after this year? I like EJ and DT, then maybe sign the best LB available in FA. Then draft a CB or saftety. That is what I would do.

akavikefan1969
12-26-2004, 02:34 PM
Irvin will be back next year with A.W. I still think a DT is most important and signing some more vetrans LB and CB. CB in the draft take about 3 years. and LB's about 2 years. There are some exceptions but a DT can impacted the 1st year if he is really good. Some of this is of course Coaching.

VikingsTw
12-26-2004, 02:38 PM
I'm not so quick to go after a DT real hard, Spencer Johnson had 10 tacles vs the packers, the man is a beast in the run game, he gets off blocks real well, he just needs to sharpen his pass rushing tools. Mabye we can go after a solid back up but i dont think its a pressing need to get a starting DT right now, right away.

I think Saftey and CB will be the main targets. Irvin will be back next year, hope he plays well but he's probably not the answer to our prayers, in terms of a # 2 CB.

Much love, why dont you like CC?

vikes09
12-26-2004, 03:38 PM
Ive liked Dontarrious since i saw him on special teams and i think he will be a great LB in future seasons. but right now hes playing 4 or 3 positions a game and u cant expect him to excell at ALL those positions. another solid CB would be nice allong w/ a LB if clairborne leaves in the FA. maybe a safety if there is a good one. a defensive tackle is one of my least concerns.

go vikes!!! :salute:

MN_Jet_Fan
12-26-2004, 05:39 PM
I'd trade Bennett for a 2nd rounder at least, or package with your first for a top 10 pick.

Draft best defensive player available that in a position that can't be filled with FA's. I really believe with better LB's and safeties you guys will run the table in the NFC North.

BBQ Platypus
12-26-2004, 08:03 PM
"jackyl" wrote:

I think that a safety would be the best.... a great safety can compensate for a weaker corner more so that vise-a-versa. Too bad that Red wouldn't pony up for both. I think that overall the D line is the least of the concerns. LB/DB need to be addressed first.

Definitely. Our D-Line is solid. We have some weak spots in the secondary and an absolute mess in our LB corps. We need to get someone like Woodson for our secondary, then draft an LB in the 1st round who doesn't suck. That will improve our defense a whole pantload. It will mean that instead of just one non-crappy LB (Claiborne), we will have 2, and will add enough talent to our secondary to make it one of the premier groups of DBs in the league.

Hopefully, we can do well in the playoffs this year with the team we have.

Mossville
12-26-2004, 08:16 PM
NOBODY IS GOING TO GIVE UP A 2ND ROUND PICK FOR BENNETT!!! To many good backs are going to be FAs. Dillion was traded for a 2nd round pick and he is much more established than bennett is.

scorptile
12-26-2004, 08:28 PM
can always get ty law in a trade for moss...hahaha

vikes09
12-26-2004, 08:35 PM
id rather get a lb in the 1st round and get woodson or a CB in the FA. can someone tell me who the LBs that r going 2 bd in the FA???

PurpleReign
12-26-2004, 09:05 PM
LINEBACKER......LINEBACKER.......LINEBACKER!!!!!!!!!

Here are some of the better FA LB'S for next year:

Julian Petersen (49ers)....Rob Morris (Colts)....Kendrell Bell (Steelers)....Nate Webster (Bengals)....Ernie Hartwell (Ravens)...

cajunvike
12-26-2004, 09:12 PM
"vikingstw" wrote:

He leads the raiders with tackles and he's a great cover corner. He's still young, he had the locker room attitude problem but there's no doubt i would take a chance. He's a football player. If we can get someone in there with winfield that is a really really good corner i would be thrilled.

Some things concern me about him, the other day him and a teamate got drunk, got in a womens back seat of her car and wouldn't get out. Hmmmm, makes you think about getting a guy like fred smoot, i dont watch him play all the time but i heard he's solid.

I would take either Woodson or Smoot in a second...I have seen Smoot play and he is a gamer. If we could fix Randy's attitude, I am sure that we could get through to Woodson as well...especially if we give him the fat contract that he wants...he is still young and very talented.

Vikestand
12-26-2004, 09:19 PM
I thought I heard somewhere where Ray Lewis's contract is over after this year?!?

PurpleReign
12-26-2004, 09:24 PM
First off....no, it's not.

Second....are you that delusional to think the Raven's would even let him THINK about free agency, much less ever let it get to that point?

C'mon...seriously....

brock
12-26-2004, 10:10 PM
Julian Peterson's got bitchy agents. We don't have cap room for him.

Vikes
12-26-2004, 11:47 PM
"CrazyAtMSU" wrote:

At what point do you think we need to make a big trade to help the defense so we can win now?

The offensive talent is there, without a doubt. It says something for the offense when you have the second worst (behind KC) defense in the league and can still put up 8 or 9 wins. We can obviously get something for one or two or our running backs, but maybe we need to make a big trade (Skins/Broncos type thing). I wouldn't say trade Pep, he is a damn good QB and I don't think Gus could take us anywhere big without a stellar D. What about Moss? It kills me to even be saying this because he is without a doubt the best WR in the league. No other player influences a defense like he does. When hes on his game, he takes 2 or 3 defenders down the field with him every time and still comes up with big yards and TD's. But we have seen that our offense can survive without him.

Another possible problem is player personalities. I'm not in the locker room and out on the practice field every day but it seems to me that he is one of the leaders of this team. How would getting rid of a guy like that impact your team?

These are just suggestions, i'm not saying to get rid of anyone (well, accept a RB because its just waste to have 4 good ones). Just wondering what you all thought

What trade...we are not going to trade. We are going to try and find us a young stud and bring him along. The Woodson talk is nice but I doubt it!

Vikes
12-26-2004, 11:48 PM
"CrazyAtMSU" wrote:

At what point do you think we need to make a big trade to help the defense so we can win now?

The offensive talent is there, without a doubt. It says something for the offense when you have the second worst (behind KC) defense in the league and can still put up 8 or 9 wins. We can obviously get something for one or two or our running backs, but maybe we need to make a big trade (Skins/Broncos type thing). I wouldn't say trade Pep, he is a damn good QB and I don't think Gus could take us anywhere big without a stellar D. What about Moss? It kills me to even be saying this because he is without a doubt the best WR in the league. No other player influences a defense like he does. When hes on his game, he takes 2 or 3 defenders down the field with him every time and still comes up with big yards and TD's. But we have seen that our offense can survive without him.

Another possible problem is player personalities. I'm not in the locker room and out on the practice field every day but it seems to me that he is one of the leaders of this team. How would getting rid of a guy like that impact your team?

These are just suggestions, i'm not saying to get rid of anyone (well, accept a RB because its just waste to have 4 good ones). Just wondering what you all thought

What trade...we are not going to trade. We are going to try and find us a young stud and bring him along. The Woodson talk is nice but I doubt it!

arialassault84
12-27-2004, 12:13 AM
i think the teams needs to get a veteran LB in FA and do what ever it takes to draft antrell rolle.

muchluv4smoot
12-27-2004, 01:31 AM
"brock" wrote:

Julian Peterson's got bitchy agents. We don't have cap room for him.



Don't have the cap room??????

muchluv4smoot
12-27-2004, 01:36 AM
"vikingstw" wrote:

I'm not so quick to go after a DT real hard, Spencer Johnson had 10 tacles vs the packers, the man is a beast in the run game, he gets off blocks real well, he just needs to sharpen his pass rushing tools. Mabye we can go after a solid back up but i dont think its a pressing need to get a starting DT right now, right away.

I think Saftey and CB will be the main targets. Irvin will be back next year, hope he plays well but he's probably not the answer to our prayers, in terms of a # 2 CB.

Much love, why dont you like CC?



With claiborne, it is pretty much a garauntee that he will play half of the games in a season and miss the others due to some injury. Then when he plays, he doesn't do anything special. Look at what raonall smith did when he stepped in for CC, he was much more of an impact LB than CC has been.

Claiborne is an average LB and we need a veteran LB that is good to great, so our young guys like DT and EJ can learn from a proven star LB. Surround young LB's with a star LB, and they get better much quicker than young LB's surrounded by average LB's(like claiborne and newman this year).


I really see this D only needing a good young stud safety, a good FA LB, and a good young CB to play in dime and maybe some nickel situations. The safety and good vet LB seem to me, to be the most glaring needs to this D.

VikingsTw
12-27-2004, 01:55 AM
"muchluv4moss" wrote:

"vikingstw" wrote:

I'm not so quick to go after a DT real hard, Spencer Johnson had 10 tacles vs the packers, the man is a beast in the run game, he gets off blocks real well, he just needs to sharpen his pass rushing tools. Mabye we can go after a solid back up but i dont think its a pressing need to get a starting DT right now, right away.

I think Saftey and CB will be the main targets. Irvin will be back next year, hope he plays well but he's probably not the answer to our prayers, in terms of a # 2 CB.

Much love, why dont you like CC?



With claiborne, it is pretty much a garauntee that he will play half of the games in a season and miss the others due to some injury. Then when he plays, he doesn't do anything special. Look at what raonall smith did when he stepped in for CC, he was much more of an impact LB than CC has been.

Claiborne is an average LB and we need a veteran LB that is good to great, so our young guys like DT and EJ can learn from a proven star LB. Surround young LB's with a star LB, and they get better much quicker than young LB's surrounded by average LB's(like claiborne and newman this year).


I really see this D only needing a good young stud safety, a good FA LB, and a good young CB to play in dime and maybe some nickel situations. The safety and good vet LB seem to me, to be the most glaring needs to this D.


Chris Claiborne
DEFENSE STATS
YEAR TEAM G GS TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF REC INT YDS TD
1999 DET 15 13 66 53 13 1 1.5 1 3 0 0 0
2000 DET 16 14 104 77 27 4 0.5 3 0 1 1 0
2001 DET 16 16 120 91 29 6 4.0 1 1 2 11 0
2002 DET 16 15 101 78 23 7 4.5 0 1 3 63 1
2003 MIN 12 12 80 63 17 7 3.0 1 2 1 3 0
2004 MIN 11 11 48 32 16 4 1.0 1 1 1 15 1
CAREER 86 -- 519 394 125 29 14.5 7 -- 8 93 2

Do you call that average, i think your very very wrong about Claiborne, Lions fans were very disapointed when he left, i heard from many that he's a "Beast". I know he has had some injury problems but he doesnt have ACL blowouts or anything else major, mostly just strains and sprains, nothing real serious.

Have you noticed since his return that the run has been shut down, we shut down, ahman green on TURF, Kevin Jones the hottest runner in the league, and we minimized fred taylor. I dont belivie any of those guys averaged over 4 YPC. Run defense seem to get better ever game. His coverage and TD in the pack game was huge. Ever since he has been back the LB's are filling there gaps, Ej has played levels better since he had a veteran next to him.

He's more than an average player, he's a good veteran LB that has been there and done that. Do we need to loose a veteran to free agency and then have to replace him. To those of you who think we need to draft a LB in the first round, do you think another young guy like DT and EJ is a good decision to make. LB is not a cake walk, especailly for young rookies.

muchluv4smoot
12-27-2004, 10:41 AM
"vikingstw" wrote:

"muchluv4moss" wrote:

"vikingstw" wrote:

I'm not so quick to go after a DT real hard, Spencer Johnson had 10 tacles vs the packers, the man is a beast in the run game, he gets off blocks real well, he just needs to sharpen his pass rushing tools. Mabye we can go after a solid back up but i dont think its a pressing need to get a starting DT right now, right away.

I think Saftey and CB will be the main targets. Irvin will be back next year, hope he plays well but he's probably not the answer to our prayers, in terms of a # 2 CB.

Much love, why dont you like CC?



With claiborne, it is pretty much a garauntee that he will play half of the games in a season and miss the others due to some injury. Then when he plays, he doesn't do anything special. Look at what raonall smith did when he stepped in for CC, he was much more of an impact LB than CC has been.

Claiborne is an average LB and we need a veteran LB that is good to great, so our young guys like DT and EJ can learn from a proven star LB. Surround young LB's with a star LB, and they get better much quicker than young LB's surrounded by average LB's(like claiborne and newman this year).


I really see this D only needing a good young stud safety, a good FA LB, and a good young CB to play in dime and maybe some nickel situations. The safety and good vet LB seem to me, to be the most glaring needs to this D.


Chris Claiborne
DEFENSE STATS
YEAR TEAM G GS TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF REC INT YDS TD
1999 DET 15 13 66 53 13 1 1.5 1 3 0 0 0
2000 DET 16 14 104 77 27 4 0.5 3 0 1 1 0
2001 DET 16 16 120 91 29 6 4.0 1 1 2 11 0
2002 DET 16 15 101 78 23 7 4.5 0 1 3 63 1
2003 MIN 12 12 80 63 17 7 3.0 1 2 1 3 0
2004 MIN 11 11 48 32 16 4 1.0 1 1 1 15 1
CAREER 86 -- 519 394 125 29 14.5 7 -- 8 93 2

Do you call that average, i think your very very wrong about Claiborne, Lions fans were very disapointed when he left, i heard from many that he's a "Beast". I know he has had some injury problems but he doesnt have ACL blowouts or anything else major, mostly just strains and sprains, nothing real serious.

Have you noticed since his return that the run has been shut down, we shut down, ahman green on TURF, Kevin Jones the hottest runner in the league, and we minimized fred taylor. I dont belivie any of those guys averaged over 4 YPC. Run defense seem to get better ever game. His coverage and TD in the pack game was huge. Ever since he has been back the LB's are filling there gaps, Ej has played levels better since he had a veteran next to him.

He's more than an average player, he's a good veteran LB that has been there and done that. Do we need to loose a veteran to free agency and then have to replace him. To those of you who think we need to draft a LB in the first round, do you think another young guy like DT and EJ is a good decision to make. LB is not a cake walk, especailly for young rookies.



Sorry, but you can show me as many stats as you want, but I will always say claiborne is an average NFL LB and that is all. I could care less about stats, I care about what I see from the guy when he plays. I saw a lot more from raonall smith when he filled in for CC and raonall is another average LB. He is a horrible coverage LB too, and we need at least one starting LB that can cover. EJ can't and DT is too young, so that leaves CC's spot.

Let him go and find a better coverage LB, and a guy that isn't always injured.

XTAP59
12-27-2004, 10:43 AM
"CrazyAtMSU" wrote:

At what point do you think we need to make a big trade to help the defense so we can win now?

The offensive talent is there, without a doubt. It says something for the offense when you have the second worst (behind KC) defense in the league and can still put up 8 or 9 wins. We can obviously get something for one or two or our running backs, but maybe we need to make a big trade (Skins/Broncos type thing). I wouldn't say trade Pep, he is a damn good QB and I don't think Gus could take us anywhere big without a stellar D. What about Moss? It kills me to even be saying this because he is without a doubt the best WR in the league. No other player influences a defense like he does. When hes on his game, he takes 2 or 3 defenders down the field with him every time and still comes up with big yards and TD's. But we have seen that our offense can survive without him.

Another possible problem is player personalities. I'm not in the locker room and out on the practice field every day but it seems to me that he is one of the leaders of this team. How would getting rid of a guy like that impact your team?

These are just suggestions, i'm not saying to get rid of anyone (well, accept a RB because its just waste to have 4 good ones). Just wondering what you all thought

At what point?......
Three years ago.

muchluv4smoot
12-27-2004, 11:14 AM
And please don't try and tell me CC is a good coverage LB because he got an int on friday. The ball was thrown right to him and he wasn't even covering anybody. I have seen enough of the guy, that I just don't see the coverage or playmaking I expected from him when he came here. I saw more from raonall smith and that isn't good.

VikingsTw
12-27-2004, 01:57 PM
Bullsh*t, Raonall played good for 2 games, I was very exited but he's played 2 good games in three years, WOW. That ball was not thrown straight to CC, he was in his zone spying on favre and made a very nice catch. He has INT's every year of his career look at the stats. His sacks are also consistent. Stats are not pointless, when he's healthy he does serious damage. If we keep him he will prove you wrong. We cant rely on one LB to be good in coverage and then EJ and DT only average. Those guys got to improve also. Thats not gonna work. Bringing one LB in thats great in coverage will not fix the problem. Ever since he's been back the run defense has been levels better. He's an all around LB.

Once again he wasnt supposed to me in man coverage he was playing a zone! Why let him go, he's a veteran that we would have to replace with someone like NEWMAN. His numbers in all catagories are consistant, Pass rushing(sacks), Int's(coverage), Tackles(running game). It's pointless to argue this because i have say, i cant offer him a contract. But i hope he stays.

Vikestand
12-27-2004, 02:53 PM
PurpleReign first off...Do you really think Lewis likes being on a team that has no offense when the only they win is if the D scores points???...SO keep your comments to yourself...Lewis has stated on more then one occasion that when his contract is up he will shop around.....So please try not to make a fool of me when you need to get your facts straight...

sdvikefan
12-27-2004, 05:59 PM
It's obvious we need a LB who can make quick adjustments to a complicated offense and get inside their head similar to what Ray Lewis was doing to the Colts last week. Maybe EJ can become that kind of player but I'd be more comfortable seeing a veteran free agent as a part of that LB corps.

muchluv4smoot
12-27-2004, 06:01 PM
"vikingstw" wrote:

Bullsh*t, Raonall played good for 2 games, I was very exited but he's played 2 good games in three years, WOW. That ball was not thrown straight to CC, he was in his zone spying on favre and made a very nice catch. He has INT's every year of his career look at the stats. His sacks are also consistent. Stats are not pointless, when he's healthy he does serious damage. If we keep him he will prove you wrong. We cant rely on one LB to be good in coverage and then EJ and DT only average. Those guys got to improve also. Thats not gonna work. Bringing one LB in thats great in coverage will not fix the problem. Ever since he's been back the run defense has been levels better. He's an all around LB.

Once again he wasnt supposed to me in man coverage he was playing a zone! Why let him go, he's a veteran that we would have to replace with someone like NEWMAN. His numbers in all catagories are consistant, Pass rushing(sacks), Int's(coverage), Tackles(running game). It's pointless to argue this because i have say, i cant offer him a contract. But i hope he stays.



Claiborne is average, period! I have every game on tape and watch each game at least 2 times, so I have seen him in action plenty of times to make up my mind on the guy.

Raonall made more plays in those 2 games, than CC has all year for us.

Let him go in FA and get a stud LB in FA, like a julian peterson type. We need a really good LB to play with our young guys instead of average guys like CC and newman.

We will be so far under the minimum cap # that we will have to offer one player a huge contract, so why not a guy like peterson? Then draft a CB or safety in the first round.

VikingsTw
12-27-2004, 09:50 PM
I dont want to put any rookies in the secondary or LB. I dont think its gonna fix the problem, MAYBE a saftey but i'd rather see us draft for a solid nickle CB after moving B Will to saftey(big if i guess). More rookie LB's is not cool. Personally i wouldnt find to see us just hit the free agency with a bang, going for defensive players like its out of style. Then get WR's and Olineman in the draft, maybe some more back up D Lineman.

ItalianStallion
12-27-2004, 10:17 PM
Didn't Lewis sign a long term contract with the ravens a couple of years ago. I am sure he would prefer playing for a team with a bad Offense than have to come into a bad defense and be expected to fix it immediately.

I guarantee all the Marquee FA this year will not even hit the market: Woodson, Peterson whatever they will be franchised and if not they will be franchised and traded.

cajunvike
12-27-2004, 11:19 PM
"ItalianStallion" wrote:

Didn't Lewis sign a long term contract with the ravens a couple of years ago. I am sure he would prefer playing for a team with a bad Offense than have to come into a bad defense and be expected to fix it immediately.

I guarantee all the Marquee FA this year will not even hit the market: Woodson, Peterson whatever they will be franchised and if not they will be franchised and traded.

Maybe we should trade Bennett for Woodson...we all know that Al Davis is a sucker for speed! Not hatin' on Bennett (I like him as a player), just trying to get something for him before we lose him to FA and get nothing!

VikingsTw
12-28-2004, 12:26 AM
I refuse to root for bennett to be traded, he's been one of my favorite players since he entered the league. I hate to see us trade any of our RB's, but 4 is alot. Especailly when they are all capable of getting it done. I dont believe we need to trade any of our players to be succesful. We can get enough through the draft and Free agency.

Wether i like it or not i dont see all 4 back there this next year.

cajunvike
12-28-2004, 12:45 AM
"vikingstw" wrote:

I refuse to root for bennett to be traded, he's been one of my favorite players since he entered the league. I hate to see us trade any of our RB's, but 4 is alot. Especailly when they are all capable of getting it done. I dont believe we need to trade any of our players to be succesful. We can get enough through the draft and Free agency.

Wether i like it or not i dont see all 4 back there this next year.

Problem is that no matter how much we like Bennett, he will NOT be given a new contract after next season...not when we have cheaper alternatives already "in-house" (and you know that cheap ass Red will never pay him the kind of money that he will ask for). If we DON'T trade him, he leaves next year in FA and we get NOTHING for him...so we have got to entertain offers for him! Nothing personal...just business in the NFL.

VikemanX84
12-28-2004, 01:11 AM
First off, Claiborne is a very good LB and brings a very solid presence in our LBs. I don't see why you don't like him Muchluv, he had an achilles tendon injury and those suck, it's touch to come back, He isn't injury prone like you aid, and he was very good with the Lions and wasa stud for us before he got injured last year. He was nominated for the DPW award for each of the first 6 weeks last season. The guy is awesome. You talk about his interception like it wasn't much, but it was a tough catch, most interceptions are. You have no reason not to like this guy.

Our defense has a ton of talent, thats not where we are lacking. It's coaching. With less talent last year our defense was a statistical top-10 defense in 11 out of 16 games last year. We led the league in interceptions and had more sacks than the Cowboys. Then all of a sudden, we spend a pick on a stud DE, we sign one of the best Corners in free agency, We draft a supposedly really good linebacker in the 2nd round, and BOOM! We have the worst defense that we have had in the last 6 years. It's not personnel guys, it's coaching. Ted Cottrell is the one that should lose his job, not Claiborne, B-will, or one of our players.

But, lets talk about the Linebackers, shall we? I remember a certain pre-season debate I got into with a certain individual about whether or not to sign trotter. That one move, which would have cost us only a million dollars, would have made our LBs so much better. Last I checked he was doing pretty well as a back-up for philly, while EJ and DT are struggling here and the one guy who, if you take injuries into effect, has been the most solid one. Smith did fine, but you want to talk about injury prone linebackers, look it up in the dictionary and Smith's face is right next to them, not CC's. We should sign Claiborne to 4 or 5 year deal at the end of the season. Now, I've been way wrong in my predictions too so I'm not trying to act superior or anything, sorry if I come accross as that. As far as I'm concerned, I'd like to see us get another LB like Newman for depth, but with experience and good coaching, I don't think we need more talent there.

I hear Safety being mentioned, I don't understand this, Russel and Chavous are very good safeties. The INTs haven't been there this year, but Russel is doing a lot better in run support and really I'd blame us getting burnt more on Cottrell's system then I would on our Safeties, they are both very good. Someone said B-will should be moved to safety? Thats the dumbest thing in the world, he has done great at the CB position, we need CB depth, but B-will and Winfield are 2 very physical and very solid corners, sur enot perfect, they get burnt from time to time, but as someone else pointed out, so does Champ Bailey and C-Woodson and again, Cottrell's coaching sucks. Our base secondary and base defense is really solid, and our defense has done better this year when we're in it, it's when we get into our Nickel packages and start subtituting people for no reason that we start sucking, that is on depth, which we need more off, and on coaching.

Finally DT, Johnson seems to be doing an awesome job. We've had adecent luck with undrafted rookie free agents at DT (Randle) and Johnson is doing agreat job and hasn't been working with the first team that long. I'd resign Hovan to be a back-up and our Dline is really set. If I were going to draft a new starter is would probably at DT just because Johnson is a relative question mark, but with a rotation of Hovan, Martin and Scott to back him up (and even w/o Hovan), I don't think we really need to.

So, again, Our defense doesn't need more talent, it's got talent comming out of it's nose. Like I said before our defense was awesome in 11 out of 16 games last year and those 5 games were really just slggish points were our opponents figured out our gapping holes and it took some time for O'learly to close them. Now we have more talent and this is the worst defense I have seen from the vikes, I'd almost rather have the Kenny Wright defense back, at least then we'd have an excuse. It's all about Coaching and Cottrell has done a horrible job and should be fired at seasons end.

In hindsight (I know, 20/20) just 2 offseason moves could mean the Vikes at the top of the NFC right now:

1. Signing Trotter - could've really used him, for a million dollars there was no reason whatsoever for us to not sign him especially with Linebacker being a glaring need at the time.

2. Having McGinnis, not Cottrel as our D-coordinator. It doesn't have to be McGinnis, it could be Williams, or Juron, or someone else besides Cottrell, we didn't explore enough options, I think Ted was the only one we interviewed for a hugely important job.


Now our offesense needs help too, Daunte Culpepper has been sacked more than 40 times this season, he's near the top in teh league in that category, and when you calculate all the dump-offs he's HAD to throw, that is simply unacceptable. The Vikings are a verticle offense and it takes time tog et WR downfield so that number should be higher than you would except for someone of Culpepper's size and running ability, but over 40 is WAY too much.

I'm not sold on Dorsey, although he hasn't, at least to me looked terrible. But there is depth at O-line and that inexcusable, we need to do something about that. I wasn't impressed with the little bit of Rosenthal we saw this season but the Offensive line needs some work, maybe think about getting Withrow some reps at Guard and trying him out to maybe replace Dixon and then drafting a tackle, or keep Dorsey there re-sign rosenthal /get someone else for back-up Tackle and draft a Guard. I never liked the moves of not bringing back Kelly or Lindsay and those both kinda hurt us this year.

Just some re-tooling of the O-line and Linehan learning to call plays will make our offense reach it;s full potential, Burleson imerged as an awesome numer 2 and good #1, and Robinson stayed pretty healthy and with the right play calling should be awesome at the slot. Bennett did really wll against the pack and Smith is awesome, Wiggins and JK are awesome. It again all comes down to coaching. I'd rather we focus our off-season on new Defensive and offensive coorinators now that Tice is back for another year for sure, but that probably won't happen. This team is underachieving like no other thing I have ever witnessed, and the players are just trying to do what their told, it's all about coaching.

VikingsTw
12-28-2004, 02:03 AM
I agree with almost your whole post, thanks for the backing on the CC thing, there's no doubt in my mind he's a beast but the other guy can say what he wants.

Thats what i was saying last night about the defensive cordiantor thing, Oleary put his players in the best position to make plays, B Will, chavous and the rest of the guys. Nothing has changed player wise, its the same players and a couple more solid players. It's the defensive scheme thats wigged out. Last year we played alot more of a zone defense, giving our CB's and Saftey's really good oportunities to pounce on the ball. Cotrell is using our guys the wrong way, IMO. Unlike oleary he not putting the players in position to make plays. I will not root for cotrell to be back next year even if it means changing defensive cordinators again for like the fifth straight season. Out of all the coaches he has had the best players and has proven nothing.

VikingsTw
12-28-2004, 02:06 AM
Also another thing, why dont they take a chance and blitz a CB every once in awhile, BW was deadly on the blitz last year. Cotrell frustrates me, i wish olearly could have stayed another year, with all the new guys we got. It sure would be intrising.

HarrisonB57
12-28-2004, 02:06 AM
I think EJ has been disappointing this year. He has been diving with his head down and missing tackles. He also looks completely clueless out there. I think If he has two years in the same system then he will figure it out and be OK. But we still need some help at LB. Maybe another pass rusher like Keith Newman.

Why is everyone talking about Ray Lewis? No way the Ravens let him slip. But The Ravens do have two other linebackers they need to sign. Ed Hartwell and Peter Boulware. Both are above average and I doubt the Ravens could sign both of them( I'm not exactly sure, but I think the ravens are short on cap space). Another possibility would be Dat Nugen(or howerver you spell it) on the cowboys. I heard that Parcells doesn't like undersized LBs so Dat will probably go. I think we could easily find a LB to solve our problems in FA.

Claiborne has been disapointing, but I think he has played well the past few weeks. He seems to have lost a lot of the weight he used to have. I have noticed him making more plays and making some big hits.

I think safety is our 2nd biggest problem to LB. Russell caught most of his interceptions last year in wide open spaces. He is more of a hard-hitting-run-stopping Safety. We need a coverage safety.

VikingsTw
12-28-2004, 02:08 AM
"vikingstw" wrote:

Also another thing, why dont they take a chance and blitz a CB every once in awhile, BW was deadly on the blitz last year. Cotrell frustrates me, i wish olearly could have stayed another year, with all the new guys we got. It sure would be intristing.

VikingsTw
12-28-2004, 02:13 AM
Ej has been somewhat of of disapointment in the PASSING game. He's a real force in the running game. The passing game will come along with time.

EJ is similair to Dahani Jones, when he was on the Giants he was great in the run game but lacked the awarness in the passing game, in his 3rd or 4th year (with the eagles) he has developed an all around game.

alberta_vike
12-28-2004, 02:46 AM
Hey there, first time poster here.

If anyone is interested this site has a list of player's who will be free agents next year unless they get resigned. Looking at it there is a possibility of tons of talent on the defensive side of the ball available next year.

http://www.theredzone.org/2005/freeagents/index.asp

Here's a list of players I think we should be looking at if they are available:

Shaun Ellis - I wasn't impressed much by MIxon this season and Ellis would improve both our pass rush and our run stopping.

Shaun Rogers - A big DT like Rogers would be alot better than Spencer Johnson.

Julian Peterson - Most likely won't be available but if he is would definitely improve our linebackers.

Dwight Smith or Adrian Wilson - Just as long as Brian Russell isn't starting next year I would be happy.

Gary Baxter - I didn't think Brian Williams was very good this year and another good corner to go with Winfield would be great.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on who we should look at in free agency. Most likely only one or two of these guys will actually become a free agent(and some might have already been resigned, I don't know) but they would definitely be an upgrade over what we have now.

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bleedpurple
12-28-2004, 01:18 PM
To support the others.....We need to resign CC....it would be dumb not to....

We do need another veteran Linebacker...to bring some stability to a young corps...

O-line should be addressed and with JK coming back we should be straight there.

YES trotter or even Ian Gold would have been HUGE signings....for a million bucks it would have been worth the shot...

We do NOT need to trade Bennett.....I hate it when people say this...he's such an important part of our offense...just look at the screen he had against GB....NUFF SAID>...

I'd trade Smith before Bennett in my opinion...but i wouldn't trade any of them...

moving BWill to safety may not be such a bad thing...but I prefer him to play nickel and get another good corner in FA...with Irvin coming back and Shaw we should be set there....

We need to draft a GOOD safety in the second or third round definately...

BUT overall on D we're close...and the talent is there....

It's more the scheming...I'd like to see cotrell blitz linebackers a little more and disguise coverages alittle more (even though our dumb lB's don't allow him to do this)...overall he should be a little more aggressive especially on third and long situations...

and for any CB that plays off his man in third and long....should be benched...I'm tired of our CB's giving their man 10-15 yards on a third and 4, 5 or 6.....that's just stupid....

whackthepack
12-28-2004, 01:30 PM
Mixon has to go (when is the last time he made a play that affected a game), Hovan has to go (useless), Brian Williams and maybe even Brian Russell, and Corey Chavous (were have you been Corey besides out of position), and the number 1 person that needs to go Ted (I can f*ck up any D) Cottrell!

VikemanX84
12-28-2004, 10:30 PM
Alright, lets compare Russell to the Cowboy's Roy Williams:



Tackles. Ass. INTs. Pass Defensed.
Williams: 67 19 2 8
Russell: 61 18 1 6

Roy is considered one of the best Free Safeties in the league and their stats are pretty close. There is no reason for us to be calling for his head. Chavous has established himself as one of the best and there is no reason to be hating on him. The difference between this year and last year again, is Cottrel, O'learly's defense relied upon the safeties a lot to make plays, and they did when they were given the oppertunity, and the only thing Cottrell's system can stop is our own potential and talent from comming through.

On the Mixon situation, I agree. Maybe Scott should be starting for him next year, and we need to get depth at virtually every position, DL is no exception.

As far who is disappointing us this year, I think I can say that the unit as a whole has been very disapointing. In one fantasy magazine they the vikings defense rated 4th!

And for those who claim we shouldn't play musical D-coords and stick with Cottrell and see where he gets us. I have to say thats dumb. O'learly was only our D-Coord for a year (even though he was on our staff for 2, that doesn't make much diference) and our D responded great, again, with our lack of talent 5/16 games we played only slightly better than our defense this year, but we were great in 11/16 games. You can run a crappy system for years and still get the same crappy result.