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Angel_Martin
12-26-2007, 11:56 PM
The last couple weeks the Vikings have played prime time football and I have to say that the announcers have done a good job and made some sound observations on our football team. Several of the comments have been echoed and re-echoed on this board, but you can tell that the frustrations the fans have felt this year are clearly understood by the national media.

Among them:
- (John Madden)
Brad Childress has tied his fate with TJack and they are kind of linked together.
- (Steve Young) If you could guarantee me that all I would have to face is the cover 3 defense with 2 corners and only one safety, I would come out of retirement right now."
- (Ron Jaworski) When you see 8 in the box like the Vikings are facing, the QB has GOT to be able to
exploit that and make the defense pay for it. If he can't throw the ball downfield against THAT defense, Adrian Peterson has no room to run.
- (Jaws again) Look at the replays of Jackson throwing. He has poor mechanics and doesn't set his feet properly.


....Anyways -- I thought those were all great observations, although nothing we haven't discussed on here many, many times. It really isn't a secret, though. Other teams are totally onto us and you can be certain if we don't get substantial improvement from our QB next year, Adrian Peterson won't face an honest defense all year.

Good announcing, though.......it was nice to see the Vikes in prime time the last couple weeks!!!

V4L
12-27-2007, 12:20 AM
True that my friend

davike
12-27-2007, 12:35 AM
"V4L" wrote:


True that my friend


This cracks me up....everyone is starting to sound like Marr on here now
;D
;)

I agree though. Very very true my friend
:D

I will also mention that the Vikings have a GREAT anouncer in Paul Allen.

Angel_Martin
12-27-2007, 12:59 AM
Yeah, P.A. has a good announcing voice, he is very knowledgeable about the Vikings, and of course, he comes across as a big fan, too. I used to like Kevin Harlan, too when he was here.

We are fortunate to have a good announcer - there are a lot of really bad ones out there...

BadlandsVikings
12-27-2007, 01:29 AM
Paul Allen

ultravikingfan
12-27-2007, 04:34 AM
More on announcers:

http://www.purplepride.org/forums/index.php?topic=39928.0

Schutz
12-27-2007, 04:43 AM
Anybody remember when the Cardinals beat the Vikings to keep us out of the playoffs?
I remember that touchdown and Allen just starts yelling NOOOOOOO!!!!!
NOOOOO!!!!
NOOOOOO!!!
over and over, I don't think I've ever heard a radio personality sound so depressed over the air.
I like Paul Allen and the fact that he's always so into Vikings football.

vikesfargo
12-27-2007, 12:11 PM
Wait a second. We can get Steve Young to come out of retirement and play for the Vikings?

He can't be older than Testaverde. Sign him up!

Marrdro
12-27-2007, 12:21 PM
"davike" wrote:


"V4L" wrote:


True that my friend


This cracks me up....everyone is starting to sound like Marr on here now
;D
;)

I agree though. Very very true my friend
:D

I will also mention that the Vikings have a GREAT anouncer in Paul Allen.


You guys are cracking me up.


I hated some of those observations by the announcers......

He is linked to TJ how?
I've beat this one to death. He is linked to TJ only for the fact that this organization screwed the pooch several times during the draft and when it came to inking/re-inking QBs that were already on the roster.
That my friends is on the other legs of the Triangle of Authority as well as the Chiller.

Cover 3 defense.
What Mr. Young failed to provide in his observations is that in a cover 3 that "futureboy" was seeing he was also seeing a pretty heavy Zone Blitz package desinged to not only take the run away but to put quick pressure on the QB which makes him make quick decisions with the ball as the OL will normally break down under that kind of pressure, not allowing the QB to get the ball to anyone.
Go back and take a look at Youngs answer to the Cover 3. He ran and didn't throw.
What a yutz.

Same thing for Jaws.
He was the one that I was the most disappointed in.
He along with Young Yutz made it out like "Futureboy" had all day long to stand back there and throw.


Whats more embarrising, those guys yacking all that trash or guys believing them.

Bottom line up front.
TJ's inability to read a defense and get the ball out is a bad thing, but there are other things that contribute to his ineptitude as some announcers contend.

vikesfargo
12-27-2007, 12:39 PM
I'd like to second what Marrdro just said.

Let's remember that when Childress took the job, Daunte Culpepper was the Vikings' quarterback. After Pepp went nutty, the Vikings wisely traded him to avoid paying Culpepper $10 million cash.

After that, we had only Brad Johnson left on the roster. In the draft that spring, we actually had a bigger need: linebacker. Childress drafted Greenway #1. He has turned out to be a developing stud. Then Childress moved up in the second round to get Tarvaris Jackson.

After that the Vikings got Brooks Bollinger (a career backup QB), Kelly Holcomb (who has turned out to be too old), and Tyler Thigpen (who the Chiefs snatched away due to Vikings' front office negligence). In the 2007 draft, we took Adrian Peterson #1 who has worked out pretty well, to say the least.

Childress would have preferred if we could have called Dan Marino off the bench, but as it turns out, we didn't have that caliber of quarterback just sitting around.

The quarterback problems of the Vikings go back much earlier than the arrival of Childress. If anything, the prospects for good quarterback play in the future have grown since Childress came on board.

Again, I'm on record as drafting a Tyler Thigpen type again in the 6th or 7th round for insurance/development/backup/future tradebait purposes. I'm unsure about bringing in a veteran QB like Garcia or McNabb. We definitely need to keep the fiery competitor Tarvaris Jackson. We should also keep another backup QB like Bollinger for insurance. That means keeping 4 QBs on the active roster. It's worth it.

Marrdro
12-27-2007, 12:51 PM
"vikesfargo" wrote:


I'd like to second what Marrdro just said.

Let's remember that when Childress took the job, Daunte Culpepper was the Vikings' quarterback. After Pepp went nutty, the Vikings wisely traded him to avoid paying Culpepper $10 million cash.

After that, we had only Brad Johnson left on the roster. In the draft that spring, we actually had a bigger need: linebacker. Childress drafted Greenway #1. He has turned out to be a developing stud. Then Childress moved up in the second round to get Tarvaris Jackson.

After that the Vikings got Brooks Bollinger (a career backup QB), Kelly Holcomb (who has turned out to be too old), and Tyler Thigpen (who the Chiefs snatched away due to Vikings' front office negligence). In the 2007 draft, we took Adrian Peterson #1 who has worked out pretty well, to say the least.

Childress would have preferred if we could have called Dan Marino off the bench, but as it turns out, we didn't have that caliber of quarterback just sitting around.

The quarterback problems of the Vikings go back much earlier than the arrival of Childress. If anything, the prospects for good quarterback play in the future have grown since Childress came on board.

Again, I'm on record as drafting a Tyler Thigpen type again in the 6th or 7th round for insurance/development/backup/future tradebait purposes. I'm unsure about bringing in a veteran QB like Garcia or McNabb. We definitely need to keep the fiery competitor Tarvaris Jackson. We should also keep another backup QB like Bollinger for insurance. That means keeping 4 QBs on the active roster. It's worth it.

A very solid post with one comment.

Lets remember that the HC doesn't run the draft.


As a team prepares for draft day, he will be involved in the analysis of players that are put forth by the scouting department (Studwells crew) and has a say in what ones are a good fit, however, when it comes to moving up or down that is on Spielman (Vice president of player personnel) who probably presents some sort of draft proposal/strategy to the ownership.

I would envision that draft proposal/strategy would include the following data:

a.
Team needs in priority order.
(This will probably have other team needs as well)
b.
Players who fit those needs in the draft ranked from most coveted to least coveted.
c.
Teams who might be interested in those players based on thier team needs and if they have shown significant interest in that player (i.e. had in for work outs, visited school workouts etc.
d.
Teams that are/will be willing to move up or down to get players that might fit a need.


Again, the Chiller doesn't have the power nor is it his responsibilit to run the draft.

Schutz
12-27-2007, 04:10 PM
haha, go figure a good announcers thread turns into another "lets defend Brad Childress" thread.
Wow guys, just keep patting yourself on the back on those comments.

I'll say again though, Paul Allen is great.

COJOMAY
12-27-2007, 04:21 PM
You'll hear the absolutely WORST announced Saturday night on the Pats/Giantsd game with Bryant "Gumball" Gumbel for the NFL Network. Even though the game is on CBS and NBC the NFL crew will be announcing he is the poorest I've ever heard!

Schutz
12-27-2007, 04:24 PM
"COJOMAY" wrote:


You'll hear the absolutely WORST announced Saturday night on the Pats/Giantsd game with Bryant "Gumball" Gumbel for the NFL Network. Even though the game is on CBS and NBC the NFL crew will be announcing he is the poorest I've ever heard!


No freakin kidding, I lost my NFL network when I moved up to Fargo, but when I watched it back then those guys were simply horrible.
I honestly believe the best national team is still Madden and crew with all their faults.
Just look at what else you COULD be listening to.

Angel_Martin
12-27-2007, 06:37 PM
Actually, mardro, that comment by Madden that said Childress is kind of linked to Jackson is very true IMO. I think going into this season, many people (including me) were bothered by the fact that the Vikes did very little to upgrade at QB, even though their QB situation was extremely precarious to say the least. They had one 2nd round draft pick with very little NFL experience and two backups who are not very talented. QB is an Achilles Heel for this team and all the experts knew that going into the season.

Instead of trying to further upgrade at QB, the Vikings inexplicably went with Jackson, Bollinger and Holcomb for the season, even though better talent was available. THAT is what links the Chiller with TJack because it is that decision which could make or break his coaching career like it or not.

The end result is even though the Vikings are very talented at many positions and have a defense (especially rush defense) that is playoff ready, and one of the most explosive running backs in the game, they have a young QB prone to making mistakes being fed to the wolves who should be learning the game such as Rodgers is doing in Green Bay. THAT is your ideal situation and when Favre retires, Rodgers will be ready to step in right away.

If Childress decides to go with TJack as his main guy for next year and he continues to play like he has, he could very well wind up in the unemployment line at the end of next season because the kid is simply not NFL ready right now. A great game for TJack is 12-18 for 180 yards. People -- this is NOT great. A great QB performance is more like 400 yards and 4 touchdowns... Something tells me Childress is going to insist on bringing in a plan B BECAUSE YES......HE ----IS--- LINKED TO JACKSON right now and he would be wise to try to shake that.

Again.......good comment by Madden on that.

Angel_Martin
12-27-2007, 07:10 PM
"Cover 3 defense.
What Mr. Young failed to provide in his observations is that in a cover 3 that "futureboy" was seeing he was also seeing a pretty heavy Zone Blitz package desinged to not only take the run away but to put quick pressure on the QB which makes him make quick decisions with the ball as the OL will normally break down under that kind of pressure, not allowing the QB to get the ball to anyone.
Go back and take a look at Youngs answer to the Cover 3. He ran and didn't throw.
What a yutz."


.....No offense, but I think I trust what Steve Young has to say about facing the Cover 3 Defense before the likes of you. Steve Young knows the Cover 3 is one of the easiest defenses to throw against if you know what you are doing. You have the bare minimum pass defense to face and you have one on one coverage on all your receivers. If you can't throw on that defense, you can't play QB in the NFL. The Zone Blitz can be beaten by quick throws on slants and if you can get enough protection, you can beat them on deeper routes with 1 on 1 defense. A cover 3 isn't designed for first and 10.........it's designed for 3rd and short. If you see a cover 3 on first and second down, you should be able to exploit it for big passing yardage. THAT is why Steve Young said he would come out of retirement if you could guarantee that is the only defense he would have to face. Unfortunately, I do not know if our QB is good enough to exploit that. Eventually he is going to have to or Adrian Peterson will be almost worthless next year.

vikesfargo
12-27-2007, 08:02 PM
And bringing in a veteran QB from another team always works out great, taking a team right to the top. Just like:

Warren Moon
Jim McMahon
Jeff George
Brad Johnson

and, one, Randall Cunningham (1 out of 5) (except our offense sputtered in the NFC Championship game).

Since 1993, a grand total of two Super Bowls have been won by teams starting a QB who they acquired as a veteran from another team: the Ravens and the Bucs. All the other Super Bowls have been won by teams with starting quarterbacks they acquired in the draft or (Favre, Young, Kurt Warner) as rookies or very inexperienced players. The farther you go back, the worse it gets for the opposite position.

Since Wade Wilson left the Vikings, the Vikings have developed the following starting quarterbacks: Rich Gannon (left the team, became league MVP for another team), Brad Johnson (left the team during his prime years, won a Super Bowl with another team), Daunte Culpepper (didn't pan out), and Tarvaris Jackson. In other words, when we did develop a QB it either didn't work out (Culpepper), or we didn't keep the guy.

Maybe we should start another project this off-season in case TJack doesn't pan out, but I think the point is made that quarterbacks in the NFL take time to develop. It would be nice to pick up a Doug Williams or Jim Plunkett off of the scrap heap, but we can't count on that.

The last thing we need is to dump another QB out the window like we did with Rich Gannon. Remember what happened to the Bucs and Steve Young, or the Falcons and Favre.

Now do we really have to talk about the need for coaching continuity? Is there any real question that the Vikings special teams, defense, running game, team discipline, and number of penalties are all vastly improved under Coach Childress? Allow me to list the following coordinators that the Vikings have lost in recent years to other teams:


Tony Dungy
Brian Billick
Scott Linehan
Mike Tomlin
George O'Leary (UCF)

With that kind of coordinator turnover, it should be a surprise we've had as many playoff appearances that we had.

There are teams in the league that have a revolving door approach to quarterbacks and head coaches. The Dolphins, Falcons, Cardinals, Jets, and Lions all come to mind.

Schutz
12-27-2007, 08:26 PM
"vikesfargo" wrote:


And bringing in a veteran QB from another team always works out great, taking a team right to the top. Just like:

Warren Moon
Jim McMahon
Jeff George
Brad Johnson

and, one, Randall Cunningham (1 out of 5) (except our offense sputtered in the NFC Championship game).

Since 1993, a grand total of two Super Bowls have been won by teams starting a QB who they acquired as a veteran from another team: the Ravens and the Bucs. All the other Super Bowls have been won by teams with starting quarterbacks they acquired in the draft or (Favre, Young, Kurt Warner) as rookies or very inexperienced players. The farther you go back, the worse it gets for the opposite position.

Since Wade Wilson left the Vikings, the Vikings have developed the following starting quarterbacks: Rich Gannon (left the team, became league MVP for another team), Brad Johnson (left the team during his prime years, won a Super Bowl with another team), Daunte Culpepper (didn't pan out), and Tarvaris Jackson. In other words, when we did develop a QB it either didn't work out (Culpepper), or we didn't keep the guy.

Maybe we should start another project this off-season in case TJack doesn't pan out, but I think the point is made that quarterbacks in the NFL take time to develop. It would be nice to pick up a Doug Williams or Jim Plunkett off of the scrap heap, but we can't count on that.

The last thing we need is to dump another QB out the window like we did with Rich Gannon. Remember what happened to the Bucs and Steve Young, or the Falcons and Favre.

Now do we really have to talk about the need for coaching continuity? Is there any real question that the Vikings special teams, defense, running game, team discipline, and number of penalties are all vastly improved under Coach Childress? Allow me to list the following coordinators that the Vikings have lost in recent years to other teams:


Tony Dungy
Brian Billick
Scott Linehan
Mike Tomlin
George O'Leary (UCF)

With that kind of coordinator turnover, it should be a surprise we've had as many playoff appearances that we had.

There are teams in the league that have a revolving door approach to quarterbacks and head coaches. The Dolphins, Falcons, Cardinals, Jets, and Lions all come to mind.


How bout the Jags, they had a QB switch with a young guy and it worked out for them, Atlanta only has this situation because their QB went to jail, the Dolphins situation I don't blame on a QB for doing that bad on a horrible team, Clevland had a QB rotisserie and now they're on the verge of the playoffs and one of the best finishes in a long time, the chargers had a situation where they had an established vet in Brees and got rid of him a couple years ago, they've done alright.

Also bringing up Brad Johnson as a superbowl QB always gets me mad, yes he was a decent QB but his QBing skills weren't the reason that the Bucs won the Super Bowl, please.
The Vikings wouldn't have been any better off.

Gannon didn't start playing at a high level until SIX years after his last year he played for us, you're telling me we should have waited six years?
Also if he was such a hot commodity why didn't the Redskins or KC keep him?


Dallas won three, Aikman was good but the Cowboys were unstoppable, Aikman was a decent QB on a great team.
Aikman was just good at taking advantage of the fact that he had Emmit Smith running, Aikman without Emmit would probably be a little scary.

Dynasties having certain QBs was only one part of the equation.
How many superbowls did the Vikings win with QBs they drafted?
Just because somebody takes a crap and calls it brownies doesn't mean I have to eat it.
Although T-Jack might pull a Gannon and take like 10 years into his NFL career to really take off, do we want to wait ten years?

Angel_Martin
12-27-2007, 08:44 PM
Good post, Schutz. I agree with the previous poster that QB's take time to develop, but unfortunately TJack did not get that opportunity. It was not his fault that he was rushed into action before he was ready. Even guys drafted in the top 10 are usually given some time to learn and develop, but here we have a kid who was drafted in the second round, who was definitely a project with a lot of potential and thrown in there right away because we just didn't have anyone else.

I don't want to blame him - he seems like a good kid and he has potential, but he isn't ready to be an NFL QB yet. He needs a lot of work on technique and fundamentals as well as learning to read NFL defenses. He is probably at least 2-3 years away from being ready to go.

I agree with Schutz - he might be ready in 10 years but do you really want to wait that long?? Also, he has been hurt FOUR times just this season.

During the off-season we should draft another QB if possible as well as pick up someone that knows what he is doing as a free agent. Ideally, TJack as well as the other drafted QB can sit on the bench and develop and the veteran can step in and play right away. You could cut Bollinger and Holcomb tomorrow and neither would probably be picked up by anyone.....

COJOMAY
12-27-2007, 09:21 PM
That's interesting stuff about teams winning Super Bowls with vet QB's they brought in. I would have never thought of that aspect of winning as a trend.

vikesfargo
12-27-2007, 10:28 PM
Vikings teams that have played in the Super Bowl since Rich Gannon was drafted: 0

Rich Gannon teams that have played in the Super Bowl: 1

League MVPs (Associated Press) won by Vikings' quarterbacks since Rich Gannon was drafted: 0

League MVPs (Associated Press) won by Rich Gannon: 1

At the very least, sticking with Gannon means we would have had more talent at the QB position. Imagine what Gannon and Moss could have done together.

Stick with our guys and keep developing them. It works. Bench TJack for a while? Maybe. Just keep TJack on the roster. Don't let him go.

Angel_Martin
12-27-2007, 10:48 PM
I agree -- do NOT dump TJack -- he still has a lot of potential - he just needs more time.
A lot of the criticism he has received is unfair because he is a young kid who got rushed in before he was ready. He needs a LOT of work on both technique and fundamentals. However, Bollinger and Holcomb are both throw aways and that is where you need to upgrade.

El Vikingo
12-28-2007, 07:17 AM
I don´t like Madden,Sanders or the big black "amusing" guy on CBS ,I don´t get a word they say,the first one doesn´t vocalize and the 2 others talk fast as hell.

Nothing to do with the topic but
the easiest catchable person from the U.S.
imo is Cleveland (from Family Guy
8)
)

Marrdro
12-28-2007, 08:40 AM
"Angel_Martin" wrote:


Actually, mardro, that comment by Madden that said Childress is kind of linked to Jackson is very true IMO. I think going into this season, many people (including me) were bothered by the fact that the Vikes did very little to upgrade at QB, even though their QB situation was extremely precarious to say the least. They had one 2nd round draft pick with very little NFL experience and two backups who are not very talented. QB is an Achilles Heel for this team and all the experts knew that going into the season.

Instead of trying to further upgrade at QB, the Vikings inexplicably went with Jackson, Bollinger and Holcomb for the season, even though better talent was available. THAT is what links the Chiller with TJack because it is that decision which could make or break his coaching career like it or not.

The end result is even though the Vikings are very talented at many positions and have a defense (especially rush defense) that is playoff ready, and one of the most explosive running backs in the game, they have a young QB prone to making mistakes being fed to the wolves who should be learning the game such as Rodgers is doing in Green Bay. THAT is your ideal situation and when Favre retires, Rodgers will be ready to step in right away.

If Childress decides to go with TJack as his main guy for next year and he continues to play like he has, he could very well wind up in the unemployment line at the end of next season because the kid is simply not NFL ready right now. A great game for TJack is 12-18 for 180 yards. People -- this is NOT great. A great QB performance is more like 400 yards and 4 touchdowns... Something tells me Childress is going to insist on bringing in a plan B BECAUSE YES......HE ----IS--- LINKED TO JACKSON right now and he would be wise to try to shake that.

Again.......good comment by Madden on that.


This will let Shutz back in the door thinking I am sticking up for the Chiller when reality shows I am just pointing out facts.

To be linked with TJ you would first have to believe that the following is in fact true.

a.
Childress makes all player personnel moves for the staff.
Not true.
Spielmen and Studwell have more say on who is brought in after Bryzcheapski can work the numbers than the Chiller.
Sure Childress has a say but as I have pointed out with many articles, quotes, and typical organization structures within the NFL one would finally have to quite thinking that he is like some little Hitler up there making all the decisions.

b. Childress was responsible for Culpepper leaving.
Again, not true.
This all came down to Daunte not wanting to rehab in MN, electing to stay in FL with his family to rehab.
After asking for more money the staff asked him to come up and show his progress on his knee and to meet the new head coach.
Of course he refused and then the wheels came off.
Again, who is to blame here?
The new head coach, the QB who wasn't gonna be ready to play and wanted more money, the money guy who along with the medical staff who said don't pay him as he won't be ready?

c.
Childress was responsible for not paying/extending Brad Johnson's contract allowing him to play his last season with us without a long term contract.
Again not true.
This comes down to Bryzcheapski (Money guy), Foley (Player personnel guy) and Ownership.

d.
Childress was resposible for making several gaffs in the 2006 draft which missed out on getting thier 1rst and 2nd option at QB forcing us to settle on the 3rd option.
Again, not true.
Fran Foley ran that draft and although we got some good guys, he did a bad job of getting them and missed out on better players.

e. Childress was responsible for the the team deciding they wanted to gut the team, start over and rebuild through the draft.
Again, not true.
This is a Ownership and executive staff decision.
The Chiller and his coaching staff IMHO are doing a pretty good job getting these guys ready to play, however, it wasn't his decision to do this.

f.
Childress was responsible for not going after Garcia and allowed Tampa to snatch him up as soon as he hit the streets.
Again, not true.
This falls to the same guys who screwed the pooch on keeping Brad Johnson on the roster as a back up.

Long story short, The Chiller does have a say/vote on the talent that is brought in but even a blind squirrel can see that the Chiller isn't in complete control of what players are put on the field.
That really falls to Spielmen, Studwell and when it comes to FA Bryzcheapski.

Childress is only tied to TJ in the press's eyes cause it gets newspapers sold and makes guys like you and me discuss it, but he is in no way gonna loose his job if TJ doesn't pan out my friend.

Marrdro
12-28-2007, 08:44 AM
"Schutz" wrote:


haha, go figure a good announcers thread turns into another "lets defend Brad Childress" thread.
Wow guys, just keep patting yourself on the back on those comments.

I'll say again though, Paul Allen is great.

You know, most of the time I like to read your stuff even though I don't agree with it, but in this case this is a pretty bad post.
The original poster of this thread made an arguement that is being disputed by others or supported by others.

How does your comment add anything to this discussion? ::)

I will give you the PA comment though.

Marrdro
12-28-2007, 08:47 AM
"Angel_Martin" wrote:


"Cover 3 defense.
What Mr. Young failed to provide in his observations is that in a cover 3 that "futureboy" was seeing he was also seeing a pretty heavy Zone Blitz package desinged to not only take the run away but to put quick pressure on the QB which makes him make quick decisions with the ball as the OL will normally break down under that kind of pressure, not allowing the QB to get the ball to anyone.
Go back and take a look at Youngs answer to the Cover 3. He ran and didn't throw.
What a yutz."


.....No offense, but I think I trust what Steve Young has to say about facing the Cover 3 Defense before the likes of you. Steve Young knows the Cover 3 is one of the easiest defenses to throw against if you know what you are doing. You have the bare minimum pass defense to face and you have one on one coverage on all your receivers. If you can't throw on that defense, you can't play QB in the NFL. The Zone Blitz can be beaten by quick throws on slants and if you can get enough protection, you can beat them on deeper routes with 1 on 1 defense. A cover 3 isn't designed for first and 10.........it's designed for 3rd and short. If you see a cover 3 on first and second down, you should be able to exploit it for big passing yardage. THAT is why Steve Young said he would come out of retirement if you could guarantee that is the only defense he would have to face. Unfortunately, I do not know if our QB is good enough to exploit that. Eventually he is going to have to or Adrian Peterson will be almost worthless next year.


If you have a QB that can make the throws.
We don't.
Whats your point?

As to Youngs ability, did you go back and look at his stats to see how he handled with Defenses like this?
He ran instead of throwing.
Again, whats your point?

Marrdro
12-28-2007, 08:58 AM
"Schutz" wrote:


"vikesfargo" wrote:


And bringing in a veteran QB from another team always works out great, taking a team right to the top. Just like:

Warren Moon
Jim McMahon
Jeff George
Brad Johnson

and, one, Randall Cunningham (1 out of 5) (except our offense sputtered in the NFC Championship game).

Since 1993, a grand total of two Super Bowls have been won by teams starting a QB who they acquired as a veteran from another team: the Ravens and the Bucs. All the other Super Bowls have been won by teams with starting quarterbacks they acquired in the draft or (Favre, Young, Kurt Warner) as rookies or very inexperienced players. The farther you go back, the worse it gets for the opposite position.

Since Wade Wilson left the Vikings, the Vikings have developed the following starting quarterbacks: Rich Gannon (left the team, became league MVP for another team), Brad Johnson (left the team during his prime years, won a Super Bowl with another team), Daunte Culpepper (didn't pan out), and Tarvaris Jackson. In other words, when we did develop a QB it either didn't work out (Culpepper), or we didn't keep the guy.

Maybe we should start another project this off-season in case TJack doesn't pan out, but I think the point is made that quarterbacks in the NFL take time to develop. It would be nice to pick up a Doug Williams or Jim Plunkett off of the scrap heap, but we can't count on that.

The last thing we need is to dump another QB out the window like we did with Rich Gannon. Remember what happened to the Bucs and Steve Young, or the Falcons and Favre.

Now do we really have to talk about the need for coaching continuity? Is there any real question that the Vikings special teams, defense, running game, team discipline, and number of penalties are all vastly improved under Coach Childress? Allow me to list the following coordinators that the Vikings have lost in recent years to other teams:


Tony Dungy
Brian Billick
Scott Linehan
Mike Tomlin
George O'Leary (UCF)

With that kind of coordinator turnover, it should be a surprise we've had as many playoff appearances that we had.

There are teams in the league that have a revolving door approach to quarterbacks and head coaches. The Dolphins, Falcons, Cardinals, Jets, and Lions all come to mind.


How bout the Jags, they had a QB switch with a young guy and it worked out for them, Atlanta only has this situation because their QB went to jail, the Dolphins situation I don't blame on a QB for doing that bad on a horrible team, Clevland had a QB rotisserie and now they're on the verge of the playoffs and one of the best finishes in a long time, the chargers had a situation where they had an established vet in Brees and got rid of him a couple years ago, they've done alright.

Also bringing up Brad Johnson as a superbowl QB always gets me mad, yes he was a decent QB but his QBing skills weren't the reason that the Bucs won the Super Bowl, please.
The Vikings wouldn't have been any better off.

Gannon didn't start playing at a high level until SIX years after his last year he played for us, you're telling me we should have waited six years?
Also if he was such a hot commodity why didn't the Redskins or KC keep him?


Dallas won three, Aikman was good but the Cowboys were unstoppable, Aikman was a decent QB on a great team.
Aikman was just good at taking advantage of the fact that he had Emmit Smith running, Aikman without Emmit would probably be a little scary.

Dynasties having certain QBs was only one part of the equation.
How many superbowls did the Vikings win with QBs they drafted?
Just because somebody takes a crap and calls it brownies doesn't mean I have to eat it.
Although T-Jack might pull a Gannon and take like 10 years into his NFL career to really take off, do we want to wait ten years?


The Jags, thats your opening arguement?
What team did they get thier new QB from via FA?
Looks like a 6 year project QB that was raised to run the team.
He sure the hell wasn't thrown to the wolves as this staff has done with future boy.

There might be an arguement/point somewhere else in your first para after that but I can't make heads or tails out of what it might be.
::)

Brad Johnson is your next one... :o
Who says you need a great QB to win in this league?
Seems to me it takes balance on 3 levels (D, O, ST).
And you need good players on all those levels to win.
Throw in a few Great players on each and you have a SB team.

Aikman is then your next jewel to pull out.
WOW. HOF QB Troy Aikman.
Are you telling me he wouldn't have been elected to the HOF if you had the final vote?
Gimme a break.
You yack on me for stuff and then you come with this.
Damn.
::)

Seems to me someone is taking a crap and trying to make it into something other than brownies my friend.
;D

vikesfargo
12-28-2007, 12:17 PM
Now that Marrdro brought it up, it makes me think we should follow the David Garrard model. His career stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/davidgarrard/profile?id=GAR371604) show very few INTs early, but also very, very few pass attempts until his fourth year in the NFL (when he threw 98 times). Only now, in his sixth year, is he the every play, every game quarterback. Maybe TJack could really benefit with a year or two of being a backup and honing his techniques. That would mean we need a FA QB to tide us over.

Marrdro
12-28-2007, 12:23 PM
"vikesfargo" wrote:


Now that Marrdro brought it up, it makes me think we should follow the David Garrard model. His career stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/davidgarrard/profile?id=GAR371604) show very few INTs early, but also very, very few pass attempts until his fourth year in the NFL (when he threw 98 times). Only now, in his sixth year, is he the every play, every game quarterback. Maybe TJack could really benefit with a year or two of being a backup and honing his techniques. That would mean we need a FA QB to tide us over.

There are alot of others in the past.
Romo, Gerrard come to mind, however, there are others that were thrown to the wolves that panned out as well, Aikman, Manning etc.

kevoncox
12-28-2007, 12:44 PM
"Marrdro" wrote:


"vikesfargo" wrote:


Now that Marrdro brought it up, it makes me think we should follow the David Garrard model. His career stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/davidgarrard/profile?id=GAR371604) show very few INTs early, but also very, very few pass attempts until his fourth year in the NFL (when he threw 98 times). Only now, in his sixth year, is he the every play, every game quarterback. Maybe TJack could really benefit with a year or two of being a backup and honing his techniques. That would mean we need a FA QB to tide us over.

There are alot of others in the past.
Romo, Gerrard come to mind, however, there are others that were thrown to the wolves that panned out as well, Aikman, Manning etc.


I agree with you about that childress doesn't have the ultimate say in what finacial descisions takes place on this team. However, you are not giving the Chill enough credit. A head coach has a lot of say in the sculpting of the team. I belive Chilldress has even more say than the average coach due to

1) A recent new owner
2) He was brought in to "clean" up the roster.

I think if childress had gone to managment and screamed..TJack is too raw I need a veteren QB, I seriously doubt that his cries would have fallen on deaf ears. The fact is Childress felt we would be ok with Tjack as starter.

VikingMike
12-28-2007, 12:56 PM
I'll add my two cents...I like Madden, always have as an announcer (not as a coach since I hate all Raiders from Davis on down
:)). In addition to some of the comments listed above, he made a keen observation that when the Vikings' passing game started to click, the Redskins had to adjust by backing into coverage...that was the time to get AD into the game. But it never materialized.

Marrdro
12-28-2007, 01:22 PM
"VikingMike" wrote:


I'll add my two cents...I like Madden, always have as an announcer (not as a coach since I hate all Raiders from Davis on down
:)). In addition to some of the comments listed above, he made a keen observation that when the Vikings' passing game started to click, the Redskins had to adjust by backing into coverage...that was the time to get AD into the game. But it never materialized.

Or they just went into a prevent cover 2 mode to keep us from getting huge chunks or scoring quickly which would/could have got us back in the game.

Marrdro
12-28-2007, 01:28 PM
"kevoncox" wrote:


"Marrdro" wrote:


"vikesfargo" wrote:


Now that Marrdro brought it up, it makes me think we should follow the David Garrard model. His career stats (http://www.nfl.com/players/davidgarrard/profile?id=GAR371604) show very few INTs early, but also very, very few pass attempts until his fourth year in the NFL (when he threw 98 times). Only now, in his sixth year, is he the every play, every game quarterback. Maybe TJack could really benefit with a year or two of being a backup and honing his techniques. That would mean we need a FA QB to tide us over.

There are alot of others in the past.
Romo, Gerrard come to mind, however, there are others that were thrown to the wolves that panned out as well, Aikman, Manning etc.


I agree with you about that childress doesn't have the ultimate say in what finacial descisions takes place on this team. However, you are not giving the Chill enough credit. A head coach has a lot of say in the sculpting of the team. I belive Chilldress has even more say than the average coach due to

1) A recent new owner
2) He was brought in to "clean" up the roster.

I think if childress had gone to managment and screamed..TJack is too raw I need a veteren QB, I seriously doubt that his cries would have fallen on deaf ears. The fact is Childress felt we would be ok with Tjack as starter.

Me thinks you are on to something.
Watch real close, I rarely ever give him credit for anything other than to say (Not just the Chiller) and to say that when he isn't our HC anymore I will really tell you what I think of him.
;D

Seriously though though.
I think the screaming your heard just before Foley was fired was not only from the Chiller but Scott Studwell as well.
At that point in the game it was probably to late to fix the loss of Cutler, Clemens and any other QB they might have been targeting in the draft.

I've laid it out several times.
If you look at how the draft evolved, TJ was IMHO the best QB left in the draft, but I am not 100% sure they needed to go up and get him.

It will always be my contention that the HC doesn't run the draft and can't make that call.

Again, back to the whole screaming thing.
I can just see Scott Studwell screaming, why in the hell do we need to move up for this kid, he will be there next round or at our next pick.


Or, Why the hell didn't you move up at least 2 more picks, Clemens would have been there instead of going to the NYJ's.

happy camper
12-28-2007, 01:30 PM
"Angel_Martin" wrote:


The last couple weeks the Vikings have played prime time football and I have to say that the announcers have done a good job and made some sound observations on our football team. Several of the comments have been echoed and re-echoed on this board, but you can tell that the frustrations the fans have felt this year are clearly understood by the national media.

Among them:
- (John Madden)
Brad Childress has tied his fate with TJack and they are kind of linked together.
- (Steve Young) If you could guarantee me that all I would have to face is the cover 3 defense with 2 corners and only one safety, I would come out of retirement right now."
- (Ron Jaworski) When you see 8 in the box like the Vikings are facing, the QB has GOT to be able to
exploit that and make the defense pay for it. If he can't throw the ball downfield against THAT defense, Adrian Peterson has no room to run.
- (Jaws again) Look at the replays of Jackson throwing. He has poor mechanics and doesn't set his feet properly.


....Anyways -- I thought those were all great observations, although nothing we haven't discussed on here many, many times. It really isn't a secret, though. Other teams are totally onto us and you can be certain if we don't get substantial improvement from our QB next year, Adrian Peterson won't face an honest defense all year.

Good announcing, though.......it was nice to see the Vikes in prime time the last couple weeks!!!


Question: Are these good announcers because they echoed the same feeling about our team that you have? Was this thread an opportunity for you to point out that some announcers feel the same way you do? Or are they good announcers because they challenged your way of thinking and brought up points and angles you had not thought of?

A good announcer (IMO) should not simply echo the thoughts of many but should bring about ideas the average fan had not yet thought of.

Angel_Martin
12-28-2007, 06:45 PM
What makes these comments insightful is the fact that these announcers have not announced a game the Vikings have been in all year and they are talking to many people who might not have seen the Vikings play all year in a national audience.

The comments they make echo what I have said all year. These guys have not closely followed this team as we have, but they are very in tune to what this team's problems are. I have argued with people all year - during the off-season I was lambasted for saying that we were making a huge mistake for not upgrading at QB and TJack wasn't ready by the so-called Vikings experts on here. I was right. I have argued with people during the season that TJack isn't even close to being an NFL QB and despite his good record, we weren't winning because of him, we were winning because everyone else was doing a good job. I am sure I will be arguing with people during THIS off-season that we can not stand pat at QB - we have got to find other options if we want to get better, although there will probably be fewer people arguing this. By the way, Bob Sansevere wrote a column today which says the same thing I have been saying all year, although he wasn't as polite as I have been.....

These comments they made might not be insightful for Vikings fans who have watched this team all year and know this team first hand, but they are VERY insightful for a national audience that might not know this team so well.