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View Full Version : Is Williamson a first round flop? Or a victim?



jmmcgorman
11-02-2006, 12:12 PM
I wonder, do you guys think that Troy is a first round flop?
Or do you think that the multiple team changes and coaches and offensive systems being new are keeping him from growing into that number one?
My only problem is that in your second year you shouldn't be dropping that many passes.
In an article i read it said that troy was leading the league in dropped passes.
This was a couple of games back.
A couple receivers to look at:
Randy Moss- first year 98- receiving yards- 1313 TD 17









second year 99- yards- 1413 td 11
Torry Hold- first year- 788 td 6








second- 1635 td 6
Chad Johnson- second year- 1166 yards td 5
Anquan Boldin- rookie year- 1377 yards td 8
Larry Fitzgerald- rookie- 780 td 8












second year- 1409 td 10
Koren Robinson- second year- 1240 yards

Troy williamson is now in his second year, caught 318 yards and no touchdowns.
What is going on?
Do you guys think it is just going to take time?
Or should we be more upset at the fact that when krob went away, that we didn't step up and get another receiver?

Johnson cant throw to wiggins and chester every play.
Because when he throws it to troy, it hits him in the head, and when he throws it to travis taylor, if he barely gets touched that ball is going to fly out of there.

I just want to know if i am the only one who thinks our receiver situation is in big trouble.

Del Rio
11-02-2006, 12:16 PM
I don't know if you can call him a flop many people here who really follow the draft and college teams told us he can't hold onto the ball. It has been known before he even entered the NFL.

I think Tice said you can teach a guy to catch but you can't teach speed or something.

So maybe more time is all he needs, and maybe a QB who can get him the ball faster?

Prophet
11-02-2006, 12:32 PM
"jmmcgorman" wrote:

...I just want to know if i am the only one who thinks our receiver situation is in big trouble.

If you spend about four seconds looking at some of the other threads you would see that you are not alone.

NodakPaul
11-02-2006, 01:00 PM
I don't know if you can call him a flop yet.
He isn't in the same class as the six players you mentioned, but he is in his second year with a weak offense.


Our offense in general is in big trouble, not just Williams. :)

Gift
11-02-2006, 01:05 PM
Not a flop just yet. well maybe.
He still has time to prove his worth but he has a long way to go.
I call him "Mr. Whoopsies" whenever he is involved with a play.

snowinapril
11-02-2006, 01:25 PM
"Del" wrote:


I don't know if you can call him a flop many people here who really follow the draft and college teams told us he can't hold onto the ball. It has been known before he even entered the NFL.

I think Tice said you can teach a guy to catch but you can't teach speed or something.

So maybe more time is all he needs, and maybe a QB who can get him the ball faster?


The only guy that I remember talking about TW was a homer from SC that had been to every game and was telling us that TW was the BOMB.

But I definitelty can believe it cause we are seeing it right now!

WR is not about speed and catching alone.
It is about being cunning.
Set your guy up with your threat of speed and get open.
The catching and speed should just be a given for a WR.


TW needs a lot of practice........

This is his first year in this offense.
I will give him next year to improve before dismissing the guy.
This year, he should get all the terms down and without injuries, he should be able to improve(refine) his skill this offseason.
Let us all HOPE!

Mr. Purple
11-02-2006, 01:33 PM
I think its still to early to put a verdict out on Troy.You show some quality WRs with that list, but theres also some names not on that list who took more then 2 years to develope.Most notabley, Steve Smith.Take a look at Santana Moss, the guy didnt really come around fully till his third year.In his second year he put up 433 yards and 4 TDs.I think Troy is on pace for those kind of numbers this year.

Smaller WRs IMO have a harder time becoming threats in the NFL.

VikemanX84
11-02-2006, 01:40 PM
I think he is making strides. Like Del said, we knew he had raw ability and skill. He has a good verticle and of course amazing speed.
We knew he was going to be a 1-2 project guy, kind of like Javon Walker.
I think his numbers would be better with a better quarterback but if he can just learn to find the ball he could be a weapon.


I think, in the midst of all the drops, people forget that he is open. Step 1 is getting open and he may do that better than any WR we have.
Step 2 is catching the ball. Step 3 is YAC.
He has shown great ability with step 1 and 3 and if he can get step 2 down he could be a force in the NFL.
Maybe we should get Cris Carter in here to help him out.

Del Rio
11-02-2006, 01:49 PM
"VikemanX84" wrote:


I think he is making strides. Like Del said, we knew he had raw ability and skill. He has a good verticle and of course amazing speed.
We knew he was going to be a 1-2 project guy, kind of like Javon Walker.
I think his numbers would be better with a better quarterback but if he can just learn to find the ball he could be a weapon.


I think, in the midst of all the drops, people forget that he is open. Step 1 is getting open and he may do that better than any WR we have.
Step 2 is catching the ball. Step 3 is YAC.
He has shown great ability with step 1 and 3 and if he can get step 2 down he could be a force in the NFL.
Maybe we should get Cris Carter in here to help him out.


That's a great point the guy can get open. That seems to be the hardest part at that level.


SIA, I know there were at least three people who are bigtime draft guys that said he had bad hands. They really did not bag on the pick at all I just remember them discussing it and getting butt pounded because people thought they were against T-Will.

Braddock
11-02-2006, 01:59 PM
I said this before: He can catch the ball, especially all those one handers thrown behind him, especially that big one vs. Carolina, and I saw one in the Pat's game too. All he needs is seperation. He's not one to catch a ball with a defender breathing down his neck. If we gave him the routes that would give him some seperation, he would be catching a lot more passes, guaranteed. You will have dropped passes, even TO, the greatest blah blah blah has a lot of dropped passes. Once we get a quarterback who can throw deep, leaving defenses to wonder and make them respect the run more, it'll give Williamson enough space to make those catches. Don't give up on him. He's good and he's hella fast.

CCthebest
11-02-2006, 02:03 PM
I think he is a flop, hope Im wrong. Right now he shouldnt be the #1 receiver for any team. With his speed he should be a good decoy if he could catch at least a few of them. Doesnt help much when you have a QB like BJ is playing this year.

cogitans
11-02-2006, 02:19 PM
I'll agree with the ones that say that you should give rookies a 3 year period to show if they can do it or not.

That being said usually the second year, is where you get the first indications of where they are going.

So far I'm not counting out Troy Williamsson. We have seen he has speed, and that he can get open. He has the ability to leap. Then he has had some drops, and I'm not the guy to tell you if he runs crispy routes.

I don't think he is that far away from being good, but I also think he would benefit from having a good reciever on the opposit side of him.

Also I can't help thinking about the alternative. Think about if we had taken Mike Williams like everyone wanted us to do.

Prophet
11-02-2006, 02:22 PM
No doubt, cheeseburger Williams, glad he's not here.

A few good offensive games will make us forget about the offensive woes that have been haunting us.
Assuming the offense wakes up and we spank the next few opponents we still won't know what's up again until we cross trails with the Bears again in the Windy City.
If the offense doesn't wake up against the hapless 9ers all hell will break loose on this site.

AngloVike
11-02-2006, 02:38 PM
Bust? no I wouldn't class him as a that but its fair to say that he's not lived up the promise of a first round draft pick so far. To be fair many were trying to make him provide Moss-like figures for his first year which was never going to happen.
This year hasn't been a good time for any of the WRs and I think he needs more reps and practice in order to get over the issues with his catching. Part of the problem with him is the mental side as I'm sure he's well aware of the fans perception of his ability- thats never easy to get over as he only needs to miss one catch in a game for the the fans to be immediately on his case.
Without wanting to appear to be on the 'drop Brad' idea that some have, it may be beneficial with a change of QB. After this and next season then it may be a fairer time to decide if he really is a bust or not.

Desertvikingfan
11-02-2006, 02:42 PM
Send him to the practice squad and bring up Carter... ;D
It just needed to be said. ;)

Prophet
11-02-2006, 02:45 PM
"Desertvikingfan" wrote:


Send him to the practice squad and bring up Carter... ;D
It just needed to be said. ;)


I'm actually surprised that someone didn't say this without the smilies.

davike
11-02-2006, 02:46 PM
"snowinapril" wrote:


"Del" wrote:


I don't know if you can call him a flop many people here who really follow the draft and college teams told us he can't hold onto the ball. It has been known before he even entered the NFL.

I think Tice said you can teach a guy to catch but you can't teach speed or something.

So maybe more time is all he needs, and maybe a QB who can get him the ball faster?


The only guy that I remember talking about TW was a homer from SC that had been to every game and was telling us that TW was the BOMB.

But I definitelty can believe it cause we are seeing it right now!

WR is not about speed and catching alone.
It is about being cunning.
Set your guy up with your threat of speed and get open.
The catching and speed should just be a given for a WR.


TW needs a lot of practice........

This is his first year in this offense.
I will give him next year to improve before dismissing the guy.
This year, he should get all the terms down and without injuries, he should be able to improve(refine) his skill this offseason.
Let us all HOPE!



gotta agree with you....troy needs alot of practice, he is raw, but talented. there is alot of other good recievers that didn't come around for a few more years. he has great speed and can get open. on alot of his dropped passes he is perty much wide open, but if you look close you will see him glancing up the field, he needs to learn to just catch the ball before you try to run with it. i still think he has the talent to be a # 1 reciever, he needs alot of work but he has the stuff to be able to do it. and also you guys that are saying that we need a better QB for him to get better, or a QB that can throw the "deep ball". that is not going to happen much under childress no matter what QB we have. Childress's system is built on short passes and power running. he will mabe throw the deep ball more under someone like tavaris, but don't expect it to happen much.

Prophet
11-02-2006, 02:50 PM
"VikemanX84" wrote:

...I think, in the midst of all the drops, people forget that he is open. Step 1 is getting open and he may do that better than any WR we have.
Step 2 is catching the ball. Step 3 is YAC.
He has shown great ability with step 1 and 3 and if he can get step 2 down he could be a force in the NFL.
Maybe we should get Cris Carter in here to help him out.


It really would be nice if they could get Cris Carter in as the receivers coach.
Hell, didn't Ford get him over with the Kitties for a little while.
Carter in as receivers coach would be nice, Zygi has deep pockets.
Show him the coin.

Del Rio
11-02-2006, 02:52 PM
Hell have Darren Sharper train him. You see that int he had against Brady. I'm surprised they didnt inspect his hands for glue or tacks or something.

Prophet
11-02-2006, 02:56 PM
"Del" wrote:


Hell have Darren Sharper train him. You see that int he had against Brady. I'm surprised they didnt inspect his hands for glue or tacks or something.


That's because T-Will needs to eat shitty food and get a tent (http://youtube.com/watch?v=7O4rwj35RW4).

jmmcgorman
11-02-2006, 03:15 PM
I understand that the receivers I listed were pretty good.
And yes steve smith took three years to come into his own.
Steve smith was a 3rd round draft pick.
Were talking about the 7th overall pick.
I am not really asking whether or not he has the potential to make it in 4 years from now.
The concern that I have is he a first round flop.
That doesn't mean he is a total flop and won't make it.
But to have a guy like this that all of you are saying in four years will be the bomb.
Who is going to be the bomb now?
Even steve smith had other good receivers around him to help him get better.
Everyone knows why moss produced so much his rookie year. Chris Carter.
Well, there is no one in there to show Twill the ropes.
My concern is why didn't we do anything about that instead of just thrusting him in the limelight and hoping he catches on.
If that's the case then why stick with brad johnson, just throw in T-Jack since were all learning.
Of course i am joking i think brad gives us the best chance to win.
But come on, receivers who have been in this league for years hold out from teams because they want to be the number one guy, and probably should be.
Twill got thrown into a role he can't handle yet, and he needs a better receiver than him to bring him up into it.

snowinapril
11-02-2006, 03:21 PM
"Del" wrote:


Hell have Darren Sharper train him. You see that int he had against Brady. I'm surprised they didnt inspect his hands for glue or tacks or something.


Sharper actually used the WRs hand to clasp that ball. They both tried to one hand that, but Sharper was in the best position to pull it in to his body.
If you get a chance to see that again, watch how they clamp that ball.
If it wasn't for the WR's hand, I don't think that would have been intercepted.

jmmcgorman
11-02-2006, 03:26 PM
"Acumen" wrote:


"jmmcgorman" wrote:

...I just want to know if i am the only one who thinks our receiver situation is in big trouble.

If you spend about four seconds looking at some of the other threads you would see that you are not alone.


I have spent more than four seconds looking at the threads.
And so far everyone is more concerned with marcus johnson, the supposed QB controversy, and Brad Childress play calling ability.
And yes some have expressed concern with receiving.
I am challanging Twill and the whole receiving core.
Not just one guy.
It's a little more magnified than in the other posts.


Brad Can't keep throwing the dink and dunk if we have any hope of doing anything against the bears again, because now they will have a lot more tape on us.


Travis Taylor cant hold on to the ball to save his life, he is very inconsistent at best.
I think Marcus Robinson should be in the starting lineup every week.

I hope Bethel Johnson can step up and make some plays, we have all this speed and no one to catch the ball.

petrodemos
11-02-2006, 03:28 PM
i cannot believe i just read that its BJs fault that Twill is dropping perfectly thrown balls. Twill is in a tie with dropped balls

first a def. of dropped passes:
Dropped Pass - Any incomplete pass which was catchable with normal effort. STATS compares and reviews the judgement of multiple reporters to determine if a pass was dropped.

now the leaders in dropped passes tied at 7: (percentage does not take dropped passes into acount, only thrown to, and caught)

t1. R. Brown (phi)


51 passes, 26 catches (51%)

t1. S. Smith


73 passes, 53 catches (61.6%)

t1. T. Williamson


49 passes, 24 catches (49%)

tied at 6 drops are

t4. A. Johnson (hou)


81 passes, 56 catches (61.1%)

t4. R. Moss


58 passes, 26 catches (44.8%)

t4. B. Westbrook


55 passes, 38 catches (69.1%)

t4. R. Williams (jax)

46 passes, 25 catches (54.3%)

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=2006&range=NFL&type=Receiving&rank=232

what does this mean... ???.uhm, i cant really remember, except that im seeing 2 eagles and a viking in the top, maybe its a trend stemming from the eagles coaching staff thats been brought over to the vikings. Steve smith has as many drops but gets twice as many passes thrown his way, randy moss is really having a down year, he is the real surprise to me with 6 dropped passes. Reggie Williams is a 3rd year veteran who is making an attempt at being the #1 WR like Wiliamson, theyre stats are very close.

;D one thing i do know for sure, no way is it brad johnsons fault!

jmmcgorman
11-02-2006, 03:32 PM
I agree that it is not brad johnsons fault.
He had one bad game.
End of story.
But the reason he has to do the dink and dunk is because our receivers can't get open.
When your receivers can't get open and your competition knows it, they cover jermaine a little bit more, then we are stuck, so try to run.
People say to run the ball to open up the pass, I think this year it is working the other way around for us.
The inability to pass has completeley hurt the run game.
Even though we are having a halfway decent year at the run.

petrodemos
11-02-2006, 03:33 PM
T. Taylor 3 drops


40 passes, 23 catches (57.5%)

the guy that should have been the #1 WR from the beginning but cant now because hes hurt:

M. Robinson ZERO dropped balls


27 passes, 12 catches (48.1%)

jmmcgorman
11-02-2006, 03:35 PM
Youre forgetting one important stat.

Marcus 3 Touchdowns

Travis- 1

TWILL- 0

BigMoInAZ
11-02-2006, 03:38 PM
Here's my honest assessment of Troy Williamson.
He was a first round, top 10, draft pick that was rising up most teams draft boards.
He had been labeled raw but with huge upside potential.

21 games into his career that huge upside potential has yet to raise it's head!

Most will scream and yell that they don't care what round a player is taken in only that they deserve some grace period before being considered a flop. Why? Unknown!

Troy has caught 48 balls for 698 yards and TWO touchdowns!
I don't think by the end of the year he'll have improved much on that so best estimate is that he might have four tds by the end of this year.

That in my honest estimation is a miserable upside potential and if he is still considered our #1 receiver going into next season we're in for a world of hurt!
Some of us didn't want a WR drafted with Troy's pick.
Some of us wanted a LB or a RB and or trading down to get other selections.
I sure as heck wouldn't have to many complaints right now if either Merriman or Derrick Johnson had been drafted.
Heck, I would be tickled pink to have Matt Jones, Mark Clayton, or Roddy White on this team over Williamson and most of those guys went late in round one!
JM2CW!

jmmcgorman
11-02-2006, 03:53 PM
I know people said I listed some quality receivers in there, but Chad Johnson didn't get drafted till second round, Anquan Boldin was second round, Steve Smith was third round.

I don't think it is too much to ask of our 7th overall pick, a hell of a pick, to do a little bit more in his 2nd year veteran status.
People need to remember he is not a rookie.

Freya
11-02-2006, 04:05 PM
What TWill really needs is ballet lessons.

cogitans
11-02-2006, 04:09 PM
"Freya" wrote:


What TWill really needs is ballet lessons.


And a little puffy dress maybe.

Well if that suits your taste, then maybe he should try it ;)

651Vikes
11-02-2006, 04:42 PM
Hmm...

Lets see here. T Will:
- Speed
- Leaping ability
- Understanding of how to get open
- Drops alot of passes

Sounds like a Corner Back to me.
;)

KrackerJack
11-02-2006, 05:11 PM
Well i think T-Will has great potential, and for all the people who are saying he's a flop, just give it some time, i have no doubt someday he will develop into a great receiver, in fact i think he will be our go 2 guy eventually, and we have a great potential future QB in hand with T.Jackson so i think they will be hooking up a lot.

Ltrey33
11-02-2006, 05:42 PM
The jury is still out as far as I'm concerned, but I don't think it looks promising.

I did a statistical comparison in one thread similar to the one you've got there with how receivers picked in the top 10 did their second year, and it seems to me like Troy is way behind the now elite receivers in that sense.

IMO, he just has way too many drops.

vike_mike
11-02-2006, 05:56 PM
He has potential.
Tons of receivers have potential.
I watched the whole game Monday and from what I have seen even before in other games is he is poor at his route running.
He doesn't juke any body or make double moves etc.
He cannot stay in the NFL and go straight up and down the field.
If this doesn't change, he will be a kick returner at best.

kramer9guy
11-02-2006, 06:40 PM
A victim? Other than being a victim of poor eye to hand coordination, definately not.

First round flop? Considering he was drafted with the 7th pick in 2005, flop might be a bit of a harsh word, but... I do think we could have drafted a more productive player with that pick.

In defense of Troy, the 3rd pick of that same NFL draft in 2005, Braylon Edwards, has roughly the same numbers as Troy this season.













REC
YDS AVG
LNG TD
Edwards

2006

24
378 15.8
75
1

Williamson
2006

24
318 13.3
46
0

In all honesty, I do want Troy to step it up. The drops are way too frequent as far as I'm concerned. But, it's still early in his career and he has time to improve his game. I just want him to do it now because the better he plays, the better chance we have to win games. He has nothing but my support (and constructive critisism...but that's part of the package).

Suick
11-02-2006, 07:23 PM
The the long throw drops are heart breaking, but the 8 yd slant, wide open, drops
kill me. This offense can't afford drops.

UndisputedVike
11-02-2006, 07:31 PM
I think it's way to early to say he's a flop, he just has trouble hanging on to the ball, look at a guy like Tim Brown. It took him almost 4-5 years before he finally had a 1000 yard season, he turned out pretty good. Give the kid some time to get comfortable and get more work at the level. After all he was very raw when he came out of South Carolina as you all know or don't know, they only used him for go and fly routes basically.

Perch56
11-02-2006, 07:35 PM
right now i believe he is a flop but i beleive he can improve and become the number 1

cogitans
11-03-2006, 05:31 AM
I took some quotes from OC Darrel Bevel about TWill. See Coordinator Quotes thread (http://www.purplepride.org/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=149&topic=28805.0).

Q: Where is Troy (Williamson) at? It seems like he is missing some balls and how do you coach that?
A: He's continuing to work on it. We work on it at practice every day. We give him balls down the field in terms of being able to locate the ball over his shoulder. That probably seems to be the biggest problem right now is being able to pick the ball up in flight. He has made catches down the field, the exact same ones that he dropped on the ground last week, so we know that he can make the play. I think the biggest thing is just locating the ball right now.

Q: If he puts that on tape, does that change a lot of things as far as how coaches approach you guys?
A: I think everybody knows what Troy Williamson can do and what type of speed that he has and I think they're definitely conscious of him. You look back to the Washington game, he had a big reception early in the game down the field and then the same play down the field again he didn't make it. So they know his speed, they know that he can get behind them. We're still going to keep taking those shots. He has made those plays like I said. If it's there, Brad's (Johnson) going to take it and we expect him to make the play and we're going to continue to work on them so that he can make those plays.

BigMoInAZ
11-04-2006, 11:33 PM
What I hate most about this discussion is how the Vikings use their supposed #1 receiver.
Looking at this chart, at least against the Pats, Troy got some throws his way.
In the three previous games he was ABSENT WITHOUT LEAVE catching a combined five passes.
That is not how you utilize your weapons!
Of course those will argue that you need a QB who can throw and some will argue that BJ can throw.
But as I grew up and understood things, "The proof is in the pudding!"
TWill needs to see the ball more and yes he may end up dropping more, but we'll never know if he continues to average only 3.4 catches a game!


Receiving
Date.................OPP.......RC.....Yds.....Avg.....TD.....LG
9/11/2006........@Was.....4.......77......19.3.....0......46
9/17/2006..........Car...... 6......102.....17........0......30
9/24/2006..........Chi.......4.......39......9.8.......0......19
10/1/2006........@Buf......2.......27......13.5......0.....16
10/8/2006..........Det......2.......11.......5.5.......0......9
10/22/2006......@Sea.....1.......18.......18........0......18
10/30/2006........NE........5.......44.......8.8.......0......13

SWAYZE74
11-05-2006, 12:30 AM
i didnt read through the whole 5 pages so ill just throw this out there...does anyone know if cris carter still runs his FAST camp...cause if he does, TWill needs to go there in the off season...for that matter, call up CC and see if he can come in to help...

or...



ive even seen tori holt catching balls from a machine, while standing about 8 feet from it...he works on not blinking when the ball is coming in...maybe TWill's problems are that minor...it always seems to be in the right spot...just not always ready to catch it with his hands (off his chest/head)...

but on the flop point, i would say no...

peace...

VikingsMB
11-05-2006, 12:58 AM
Is it just me or was our best offensive outing when he was knocked out of the game at Seattle?
I am not convinced that Johnson believes he will catch the ball when he throws it to him.


It seems that anything that had Tices fingerprints on it was a flop.

kramer9guy
11-05-2006, 01:50 AM
"VikingsMB" wrote:


Is it just me or was our best offensive outing when he was knocked out of the game at Seattle?
I am not convinced that Johnson believes he will catch the ball when he throws it to him.



It seems that anything that had Tices fingerprints on it was a flop.


When it comes to the deep ball, you could be correct. The same thing has crossed my mind.

IbleedPURPLEandGOLD
11-05-2006, 01:54 AM
Our current starting QB cannot use Troy Williamson effectively simply because BJ cannot throw "stretching" passes. A speedstar who needs separation, and with his speed can get" needs a stronger armed QB. Remember, at the time of his draft, we have a strong armed QB, he just had a weak brain and then a bum knee. I will not call Williamson a bust or flop until he gets a season with Tarvarius who has a cannon even by NFL standards.

tybrones87
11-05-2006, 03:10 AM
Its too early to tell if he's a flop or not. Catching a few of those wideopen sure touchdown passes would go a long ways towards losing the stigma of being a bust.

singersp
11-05-2006, 06:36 AM
"VikingsMB" wrote:


Is it just me or was our best offensive outing when he was knocked out of the game at Seattle?
I am not convinced that Johnson believes he will catch the ball when he throws it to him.



It seems that anything that had Tices fingerprints on it was a flop.


::)
My poor mis-guided lad. These are Tice's #1 & #2 draft choices from his tenure as head coach;

2002-2005 #1

Troy Williamson
Erasmus James
Kenechi Udeze
Kevin Williams
Bryant McKinnie

2002-2005 #2

Raonall Smith
Kevin Williams
Dontarrious Thomas
Marcus Johnson

With the exception of Ranall Smith, all are either starters or solid backups on the team today.

Tice also brought in the following players;

Pat Williams
Brad Johnson
Darren Sharper
Napolean Harris
Antoinne Winfield
Marcus Robinson
Travis Taylor
Jermaine Wiggins

Just to name a few.

Now are you trying to tell me these players Tice brought to the team are all flops?

How many do you fingerprint as flops?

jmmcgorman
11-06-2006, 09:14 AM
I think after the Niners game yesterday my question has been answered.