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Del Rio
10-31-2006, 06:52 AM
Well I think it is safe to say that was a horrible game. I just wanted to touch on a few things some of which may have been touched upon in other threads. Going into this game many fans knew that we would have our hands full, in fact before the season even started I would be surprised if many fans caulked this game up to anything other then a loss. The reason we had hope we could win was because so far this season the team has shown us talent that I think many of us never thought they had.


If there were three things in this game that killed us I would have to say they were:

1) Coaching
2) Defense
3) QB/WR play


Coaching was what I was afraid it would be. You have a proven coach, three time super bowl winner matching wits with a rookie head coach and a rookie coaching staff and it showed big time. They go to five wide and start throwing the ball around. It is ballsy, it is confident, and it says “Hey you can’t stop us.” Most importantly however is it makes Brad Childress make a decision. Does he stick to his plan or does he try to match tit for tat? Well 5 runs in the first half tells us he made the WRONG decision. Down by 17 and the run is abandoned. Our bread and butter is abandoned and we are instantly in a shoot out, one that we cannot win. Poor coaching. HOWEVER he is young and he is learning. This is not a bag on Brad Childress thread, just an honest observation.


Defense was horrid. I have been saying all season the zone is soft. Pass protection is soft and it was that and more. This is not a top ten defense I am sorry. In my honest opinion this defense is great at stuffing the run and horrible at stopping the pass. Granted this game was an exaggeration of that being that we went against Tom Brady, but I have been seeing this all season. Big open fields to roam. The line sucked it up. They went 5 wide all night long so there is really no option for a strong blitz. You have to make the line beat you, and they failed.

Brad Johnson played the worst game I have ever seen him play. Where is that fire that was there against the Redskins? We know this guy is not a gunner; he is not a throw the ball 60 yards down the field kind of guy. What he is supposed to be is a guy that makes the smart play and he wasn’t doing that. So take both of those away and you got nothing. I could not quit thinking about his contract. The guy is a starter and is getting paid ass-soup for wages. Does he care enough to win? If we are going to let him go at the end of the season why not go with young blood? I mean I just can’t help but wonder why this guy hasn’t been paid. The only conclusion I can think is he isn’t going to be here very long.



~ Some notables from the game

Bryant McKinnie once again shows his weakness. Fast ends getting around him and making him look silly.

The officiating was horrid. What good is instant replay when it doesn’t even get you the correct call on the field?

Troy Williamson once again drops a game changing pass. Sure there was some contact, but the ball hit his hand and I have to agree with Thiesman when he says he lost the ball in the lights. Perfectly thrown strike down the sideline and he drops it……again.

MM makes an awesome punt return.

Tony Richardson is a beast plain and simple

At halftime they did that stupid race deal with the big foam heads. When they were introducing the contestants the fans BOOED THE HELL out of IRVIN,KORNHEISER,and THEISMAN. It made my night. Then when they go back to Irvin he looks all butt hurt and that made it even better.

Finally the PATRIOTS are who we SAID THEY WERE!!!! Which is one hell of a football team. Sure the officiating was not that great, but they flat out beat our ass. They knocked us in the mouth on defense AND offense and we didn’t do a damn thing about it. So cudo’s to them for being a well coached and very well disciplined. No false starts all night. That’s impressive.

We have work to do. We did not play up to our level and I am sure that the 49ers will feel some of that fire next weekend. In fact after a loss like this you have the opportunity to really see what your team is made of. There is absolutely no reason we should not win against the 49ers. NONE AT ALL, we should dominate them. If we come out flat then I would be afraid for our season and our morale and then I would actually consider mixing it up a bit weather it be at the QB position, WR, or whatever.

PurplePackerEater
10-31-2006, 07:06 AM
Good post. I especially like the Denny Green impersonation.

singersp
10-31-2006, 07:16 AM
The other coaching I question was on the defensive side of the ball. All year long we've been playing with some pretty big cushions, giving up the plays underneath & trying to not to give up the big play.

The Patriots saw that & exploited the hell out of it, with several quick strikes under 10 yards & their speedy receivers doing the rest. It seemed to me that there wasn't much defensive adjustment being made to rectify it. As long as we kept giving it to them, they kept taking advantage of it.

On one play, it had to be blown coverage, there wasn't a defender within 15 yards opf the receiver. he fell down on his own, not once, but twice I believe & got back up before a defender even got to him.

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 07:31 AM
"singersp" wrote:


The other coaching I question was on the defensive side of the ball. All year long we've been playing with some pretty big cushions, giving up the plays underneath & trying to not to give up the big play.

The Patriots saw that & exploited the hell out of it, with several quick strikes under 10 yards & their speedy receivers doing the rest. It seemed to me that there wasn't much defensive adjustment being made to rectify it. As long as we kept giving it to them, they kept taking advantage of it.

On one play, it had to be blown coverage, there wasn't a defender within 15 yards opf the receiver. he fell down on his own, not once, but twice I believe & got back up before a defender even got to him.


The lack of defensive adjustments was definately a big factor. I agree. You would think with the Patsies playing 5 man wide that he could have drawn something up.

cogitans
10-31-2006, 07:35 AM
The only thing that really scares me, is that Childress once again abandoned the run quickly. You would think he had learned his lesson against the Bills.

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 07:40 AM
"cogitans" wrote:


The only thing that really scares me, is that Childress once again abandoned the run quickly. You would think he had learned his lesson against the Bills.


I agree Cogs. He did turn his back on the run and we suffered alot form that. No reason to stop running at all during the first half.

I think Bill Bellichek roped him into it and he fell for it. I think seeing 5 man WR every snap set a tempo that Childress felt he had to match. In my opinion this was the biggest mistake of the entire game, one that may have cost us the game.

Also something I found highly entertaining and fun is that we were effectively running the play action pass ALL NIGHT lol and we had hardly ran the ball at all. That is called respect. Which also makes me feel sick that we abandoned our bread and butter.

mr.woo
10-31-2006, 07:50 AM
what cost us the game was the chance for s to tie it up and get some momentum back and brad make a asssucky through interception no points. if we had scored there the defense would have been re energized the life would have come back into the crowd. we might still have lost but it woouldnt have been as ugly.

snowinapril
10-31-2006, 07:52 AM
"Del" wrote:


Well I think it is safe to say that was a horrible game. I just wanted to touch on a few things some of which may have been touched upon in other threads. Going into this game many fans knew that we would have our hands full, in fact before the season even started I would be surprised if many fans caulked this game up to anything other then a loss. The reason we had hope we could win was because so far this season the team has shown us talent that I think many of us never thought they had.

True, this was not one of the wins on my list.
Recent play led me to believe we could win, and yes that was an awful game to watch.

"Del" wrote:


If there were three things in this game that killed us I would have to say they were:

1) Coaching
2) Defense
3) QB/WR play


Coaching was what I was afraid it would be. You have a proven coach, three time super bowl winner matching wits with a rookie head coach and a rookie coaching staff and it showed big time. They go to five wide and start throwing the ball around. It is ballsy, it is confident, and it says “Hey you can’t stop us.” Most importantly however is it makes Brad Childress make a decision. Does he stick to his plan or does he try to match tit for tat? Well 5 runs in the first half tells us he made the WRONG decision. Down by 17 and the run is abandoned. Our bread and butter is abandoned and we are instantly in a shoot out, one that we cannot win. Poor coaching. HOWEVER he is young and he is learning. This is not a bag on Brad Childress thread, just an honest observation.

I would have to put the QB play right up there at 1.5, in between the coaching and the D.
We were ahead in the possession time, but behind on the score board.
Johnson made bad decisions and bad throws in key situations that he normally doesn't do.
He PANICED, Lost his Cool.
His play and the coaches decisions were linked, heck add the Defense to this mix too.


"Del" wrote:


Defense was horrid. I have been saying all season the zone is soft. Pass protection is soft and it was that and more. This is not a top ten defense I am sorry. In my honest opinion this defense is great at stuffing the run and horrible at stopping the pass. Granted this game was an exaggeration of that being that we went against Tom Brady, but I have been seeing this all season. Big open fields to roam. The line sucked it up. They went 5 wide all night long so there is really no option for a strong blitz. You have to make the line beat you, and they failed.

Dwight Smith and Whitaker are weak links in our secondary. It wasn't all Smoots fault last night. Even if our O would have won the time of possession, we couldn't stop them from scoring.

"Del" wrote:

Brad Johnson played the worst game I have ever seen him play. Where is that fire that was there against the Redskins? We know this guy is not a gunner; he is not a throw the ball 60 yards down the field kind of guy. What he is supposed to be is a guy that makes the smart play and he wasn’t doing that. So take both of those away and you got nothing. I could not quit thinking about his contract. The guy is a starter and is getting paid jiggly butt-soup for wages. Does he care enough to win? If we are going to let him go at the end of the season why not go with young blood? I mean I just can’t help but wonder why this guy hasn’t been paid. The only conclusion I can think is he isn’t going to be here very long.

True on all that!
I think he cares enough to win though.
They said he is the lowest paid starter or the second lowest paid starter.
He wants to win, and he will probably want to leave after this season also.
I am still not convinced that it is time for Young Blood.
Bollinger proved he isn't ready and it is safe to say that T-Jack isn't ready for full speed NFL Ds coming at him.

"Del" wrote:


~ Some notables from the game

Bryant McKinnie once again shows his weakness. Fast ends getting around him and making him look silly.

The officiating was horrid. What good is instant replay when it doesn’t even get you the correct call on the field?

Troy Williamson once again drops a game changing pass. Sure there was some contact, but the ball hit his hand and I have to agree with Thiesman when he says he lost the ball in the lights. Perfectly thrown strike down the sideline and he drops it……again.

MM makes an awesome punt return.

Tony Richardson is a beast plain and simple

McKinnie ?
Officiating - Blew Brady last night, that is why the guy is so relaxed on the field.
They called the touch fouls on us but ignored them for the Pats. I saw 2 obvious pass interference calls and they weren't call on the Pats.
T-Will is T-Will but I will give him a pass on that.
It should have been pass interference, sure it was a light touch, but his arm was held.
T-Will needs both hands (for his best chance) to catch the ball.
MM is a sprak plug.
He is fresh the whole game since he doesn't play the 1 and 2 downs.
T-Rich got blown up caught the ball anyway, got up and ran back to the Huddle, got to like that.

cogitans
10-31-2006, 07:52 AM
"Del" wrote:


"cogitans" wrote:


The only thing that really scares me, is that Childress once again abandoned the run quickly. You would think he had learned his lesson against the Bills.


I agree Cogs. He did turn his back on the run and we suffered alot form that. No reason to stop running at all during the first half.

I think Bill Bellichek roped him into it and he fell for it. I think seeing 5 man WR every snap set a tempo that Childress felt he had to match. In my opinion this was the biggest mistake of the entire game, one that may have cost us the game.

Also something I found highly entertaining and fun is that we were effectively running the play action pass ALL NIGHT lol and we had hardly ran the ball at all. That is called respect. Which also makes me feel sick that we abandoned our bread and butter.


Exactly.

All of the other things you said in the initial post is fixable one way or the other. But this problem is a possible indicator that something more serious could be wrong.

First off they made the same mistake in Buffalo, and therefor it's much more serious to see it repeated.

Secondly, if Childress can't see the unbalance him self during the game - and there can be many reasons why that would be so - someone on the coachingstaff should help him by letting him know. If they can't do that it's serious, and it could lead to more losses down the road.

COJOMAY
10-31-2006, 07:57 AM
Childress got taken to coaching school tonight for sure. And that's good. It was a learning experience for him and guaranteed he will learn from it.
All the talk I am reading about how the Tampa 2 cannot stop the passing game if they spread the field is plain and simple BS. Tony Dungey is the "Father of the Tampa 2" and the Colts defense is great and they have seen the spread offense many times. You have to adjust. Mike Tomlin, who last week was everybody's choice for a head coaching job will also have to learn from this blowout to adjust.
I think BJ simply was trying to hard. It was almost shades of Daunte last year. BJ has to learn not to try and carry the whole team. But let's face it, the offensive line blocking sucked BIG TIME for the Vikes and therein was the biggest problem, not BJ.
You watch, other teams will try the spread offense on the Vikes not and either the team will be shades of 2004 which started fast and then the weaknesses got found out and they floundered the rest of the season, or the Vikes will adjust. Our schedule gives us a perfect adjustment period of weaker teams. We'll see what Childress, Timlin, BJ and the offensive line are made of in the next few weeks.

6-KINGS
10-31-2006, 08:01 AM
Good Post Del.

For anybody out there that feels Pro Football is rigged, last night was a poster child game for that "X-Factor" episode.

Unreal

As for the game, they took a crowbar, shoved it up our cracks and broke it off.

Oh and our Linebackers are weak accross the board. They couldn't cover a Christmas box.

6

snowinapril
10-31-2006, 08:02 AM
"Del" wrote:


Also something I found highly entertaining and fun is that we were effectively running the play action pass ALL NIGHT lol and we had hardly ran the ball at all. That is called respect. Which also makes me feel sick that we abandoned our bread and butter.


I noticed that too.
We could have ran more.


No one respect our WRs, or our QBs arm.

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 08:11 AM
"snowinapril" wrote:


"Del" wrote:


Well I think it is safe to say that was a horrible game. I just wanted to touch on a few things some of which may have been touched upon in other threads. Going into this game many fans knew that we would have our hands full, in fact before the season even started I would be surprised if many fans caulked this game up to anything other then a loss. The reason we had hope we could win was because so far this season the team has shown us talent that I think many of us never thought they had.

True, this was not one of the wins on my list.
Recent play led me to believe we could win, and yes that was an awful game to watch.

"Del" wrote:


If there were three things in this game that killed us I would have to say they were:

1) Coaching
2) Defense
3) QB/WR play


Coaching was what I was afraid it would be. You have a proven coach, three time super bowl winner matching wits with a rookie head coach and a rookie coaching staff and it showed big time. They go to five wide and start throwing the ball around. It is ballsy, it is confident, and it says “Hey you can’t stop us.” Most importantly however is it makes Brad Childress make a decision. Does he stick to his plan or does he try to match tit for tat? Well 5 runs in the first half tells us he made the WRONG decision. Down by 17 and the run is abandoned. Our bread and butter is abandoned and we are instantly in a shoot out, one that we cannot win. Poor coaching. HOWEVER he is young and he is learning. This is not a bag on Brad Childress thread, just an honest observation.

I would have to put the QB play right up there at 1.5, in between the coaching and the D.
We were ahead in the possession time, but behind on the score board.
Johnson made bad decisions and bad throws in key situations that he normally doesn't do.
He PANICED, Lost his Cool.
His play and the coaches decisions were linked, heck add the Defense to this mix too.


"Del" wrote:


Defense was horrid. I have been saying all season the zone is soft. Pass protection is soft and it was that and more. This is not a top ten defense I am sorry. In my honest opinion this defense is great at stuffing the run and horrible at stopping the pass. Granted this game was an exaggeration of that being that we went against Tom Brady, but I have been seeing this all season. Big open fields to roam. The line sucked it up. They went 5 wide all night long so there is really no option for a strong blitz. You have to make the line beat you, and they failed.

Dwight Smith and Whitaker are weak links in our secondary. It wasn't all Smoots fault last night. Even if our O would have won the time of possession, we couldn't stop them from scoring.

"Del" wrote:

Brad Johnson played the worst game I have ever seen him play. Where is that fire that was there against the Redskins? We know this guy is not a gunner; he is not a throw the ball 60 yards down the field kind of guy. What he is supposed to be is a guy that makes the smart play and he wasn’t doing that. So take both of those away and you got nothing. I could not quit thinking about his contract. The guy is a starter and is getting paid jiggly butt-soup for wages. Does he care enough to win? If we are going to let him go at the end of the season why not go with young blood? I mean I just can’t help but wonder why this guy hasn’t been paid. The only conclusion I can think is he isn’t going to be here very long.

True on all that!
I think he cares enough to win though.
They said he is the lowest paid starter or the second lowest paid starter.
He wants to win, and he will probably want to leave after this season also.
I am still not convinced that it is time for Young Blood.
Bollinger proved he isn't ready and it is safe to say that T-Jack isn't ready for full speed NFL Ds coming at him.

"Del" wrote:


~ Some notables from the game

Bryant McKinnie once again shows his weakness. Fast ends getting around him and making him look silly.

The officiating was horrid. What good is instant replay when it doesn’t even get you the correct call on the field?

Troy Williamson once again drops a game changing pass. Sure there was some contact, but the ball hit his hand and I have to agree with Thiesman when he says he lost the ball in the lights. Perfectly thrown strike down the sideline and he drops it……again.

MM makes an awesome punt return.

Tony Richardson is a beast plain and simple

McKinnie ?
Officiating - Blew Brady last night, that is why the guy is so relaxed on the field.
They called the touch fouls on us but ignored them for the Pats. I saw 2 obvious pass interference calls and they weren't call on the Pats.
T-Will is T-Will but I will give him a pass on that.
It should have been pass interference, sure it was a light touch, but his arm was held.
T-Will needs both hands (for his best chance) to catch the ball.
MM is a sprak plug.
He is fresh the whole game since he doesn't play the 1 and 2 downs.
T-Rich got blown up caught the ball anyway, got up and ran back to the Huddle, got to like that.


I never mentioned Smoot
;D He had a penalty that was no big deal and he made a nice tackle that allowed a teamate to force a fumble, other then that nothing too good and nothing bad at all from him.

I do not agree with the Twill explanation but that is just my perception his head wasn't even in the right position it is like he lost the ball completely.

McKinnie kept getting beat and Johnson was getting hit from the end.

Trich made a huge play on our first drive where he fought for extra yards and moved the chains.

Prophet
10-31-2006, 08:34 AM
Nice post Del.
it took me a while to get to it after wading through the start Tarvaris threads.
Thanks Caine for addressing those issues with a level head.

============================================================

"cogitans" wrote:


"Del" wrote:


"cogitans" wrote:


The only thing that really scares me, is that Childress once again abandoned the run quickly. You would think he had learned his lesson against the Bills.


I agree Cogs. He did turn his back on the run and we suffered alot form that. No reason to stop running at all during the first half.

I think Bill Bellichek roped him into it and he fell for it. I think seeing 5 man WR every snap set a tempo that Childress felt he had to match. In my opinion this was the biggest mistake of the entire game, one that may have cost us the game.

Also something I found highly entertaining and fun is that we were effectively running the play action pass ALL NIGHT lol and we had hardly ran the ball at all. That is called respect. Which also makes me feel sick that we abandoned our bread and butter.


Exactly.

All of the other things you said in the initial post is fixable one way or the other. But this problem is a possible indicator that something more serious could be wrong.

First off they made the same mistake in Buffalo, and therefor it's much more serious to see it repeated.

Secondly, if Childress can't see the unbalance him self during the game - and there can be many reasons why that would be so - someone on the coachingstaff should help him by letting him know. If they can't do that it's serious, and it could lead to more losses down the road.


This is where my thoughts were heading after the game.
I have had confidence in Childress and the coaching staff and I still do.
In the bigger scheme of things many of us were optimistic about this game because there were aspects of this team that we haven't seen in years and it was exciting, the run stuffing game and the running game.
The running game was abandoned too quickly, no doubt.

I do have faith in the coaching staff/team to use the film from this game wisely.
Some of you mentioned that other teams will use this tape to learn how to destroy the Vikings.
The converse is more true, the rookie coaching staff of the Vikings have the perfect tape of an excellent team owning them in almost every aspect of the game.
It's a condensed version of what needs to be fixed in the short- and long-term for the Vikings.
You can bet they are picking apart every aspect of the game as I'm typiing this and they will learn from the mistakes.
The team will be better for it in the long-term.

This has been said numerous times and is worth repeating again.
The coaching staff is young and the schemes are young in all three aspects of the game.
The season is far from over and they have the potential to improve dramatically from this defeat.
If Tice and crew were still intact the potential for improvement did not exist, it was simply a defeat.

Many of us realized that at the beginning of this season we would be in the 7-9 to 9-7 range and as long as the team is progressing and becoming stronger all will be well in the world.
The team has shown improvement as the seasaon is progressing but new weaknesses are exposed as good coaching staffs analyze our game film and prepare to attack the weaknesses.
Over time, the coaching staff will have a bigger bag of tricks in their repertoire and be better prepared for a larger array of plays.


During the offseason I was banking on Brad Johnson getting a better contract since he was deemed the starter this year and it never came to fruition.
They are keeping their doors open for the future, that is obvious now.
Will Tarvaris Jackson be ready in '07?
I don't know.
During the offseason there will be a play for a Schaub-like QB that is ready to take over if Brad Johnson continues to stink it up like he did last night and the coaching staff doesn't think Tarvaris is ready to take the helm.


Receiving corps?
I don't even want to get into that.

ultravikingfan
10-31-2006, 08:51 AM
Nice analysis Del.
Its always refreshing to read a thread that is well thought out rather than "so and so sucks".

The defense was the timebomb that finally went off.
Bad game for them across the board.


I have one question for you Del;
how can you analize this team when you have never played in the NFL? (I am on my cell phone, so pretend there is a "razz" smiley here)

snowinapril
10-31-2006, 08:52 AM
I think that it was our game plan to Throw, to do something different.
On our first possession, our scripted plays, we were throwing.
We moved our queen too fast, or some other chess mistake.

We were going to throw because we thought they were going to key on the run.
Which is probably true considering how they were biting on the play action all night.

whackthepack
10-31-2006, 08:55 AM
Well I have to admit that I was dead wrong in my thoughts about the Pats I thought their dominance was over and they were on the downside of the dynasty, and I could not have been more wrong they are a great team and are playing at a high level!


Childress was out coached and out prepared and my hats off to Belichick and his coaching staff for game planning us better than I thought anyone could!


Brad I am sorry but your time has passed by and your arm is not strong enough to be a starting QB any more!
We may be able to hide you the rest of the year, but after that it is time to move on and we need someone (hopefully T-Jack) that can throw the ball next year!


T-Williamson I have been backing you since we drafted you, and you keep letting me down!
You need to either step up or step out, you have the rest of the season to prove yourself and you better start or you could be 5th on the depth chart next year!


Travis Taylor don't be laughing because you won't be the 5th receiver next year, you will be looking for a new job!


Hats off to MeMo last night one of the few players that got the job done and made the only plays last night that could be considered highlights!


O-line are you guys a little sore this morning?
You should be because the Pat's bent you over and made you grab your ankles!
No pass protection and stupid penalties at key times again!
Artis Hicks you should not be starting.
Marcus you still get some time because you are young and it takes 3 to 4 years to develop into a good lineman, but your time is running!
Birk you need to start playing better quickly and you are not the guy you were 3 years ago and it is showing, so get your sh*t together!
Hutchinson I still think you are playing at a high level and I am giving you a pass this week because you can't play all 5 positions on the O-line.
McKinnie lose some f*cking weight and add some muscle, and start running because you need more speed!
You are a stump, it is great when you are playing a bull rush DE but when you get a speed guy you are worthless!


Linebackers did you guys even take the field last night?
OK I think I saw EJ on a play or 2, but what about the rest of you?
Maybe cover somebody across the middle, once in awhile!

DB's you can all kiss my sweet behind!
Maybe cover somebody, anybody!



OK we got toasted last night, and it wasn't pretty, and it was on national TV!
So next week go to San Fran and I am hoping that this is just what this team needs to get it's self right and start to rebound from this disaster.

We are not out of the playoff hunt we are still in 2nd place in our division and we are still in the wildcard hunt, but we are not as good as we thought and we are not as bad as we played last night!
We are a 4 - 3 team and we are shooting for a wildcard playoff birth, and to beat the Packers twice this year!

snowinapril
10-31-2006, 09:06 AM
Is it me or do we seem to get our asses handed to us by East Coast teams, even at home in our own stadium.

snowinapril
10-31-2006, 09:18 AM
"Del" wrote:


Finally the PATRIOTS are who we SAID THEY WERE!!!! Which is one hell of a football team. Sure the officiating was not that great, but they flat out beat our jiggly butt. They knocked us in the mouth on defense AND offense and we didn’t do a gol 'darnit thing about it. So cudo’s to them for being a well coached and very well disciplined. No false starts all night. That’s impressive.

No, the Vikings were who the Pats thought they were.

Soft on the Pass!

I still say our scripted plays on the first drive were tipping our hat to a passing game last night.
That is why Childress didn't feel he was abandoning his run game, just following the game plan.
Therefore that means that the D let the game plan down by not stopping the run.
All this is debatable.

LuckyVike
10-31-2006, 09:27 AM
Don't try to blame T-Will for dropping that pass.
I think every single person on the board knows that you can't catch and 50 yard bomb(or whatever it was) with one hand while the other is being held down to your side and that IS what happened.

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 09:41 AM
"LuckyVike" wrote:


Don't try to blame T-Will for dropping that pass.
I think every single person on the board knows that you can't catch and 50 yard bomb(or whatever it was) with one hand while the other is being held down to your side and that IS what happened.


Well someone should post a link to the actual footage so we can see it again. I have it on TIVO and will watch it again, but I did not see his arm pinned, I saw his ass looking off into space while the ball fell into his arm.

Until someone can show me his arm was pinned or until I can get home and watch it again I'm calling bullshit on that one,

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 09:44 AM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:


Nice analysis Del.
Its always refreshing to read a thread that is well thought out rather than "so and so sucks".

The defense was the timebomb that finally went off.
Bad game for them across the board.


I have one question for you Del;
how can you analize this team when you have never played in the NFL? (I am on my cell phone, so pretend there is a "razz" smiley here)


No I am absolutely not qualified to have an opinion. In fact the only thing I am qualified to talk about is graphic design because that is my occupation, everything else in this world is off limits.

AngloVike
10-31-2006, 09:57 AM
I'll add what I say based on seeing about one quarter's worth of play - either side of the half.

The one thing that was apparent was the ease that Brady was picking his way down the field with the passing game. I couldn't understand why we were backing off in coverage and the resultant completions that resulted from this. Also thought that Brady should have been called for an intentional grounding- then again two plays later MeMo ran the punt back for a TD so it worked in the end for that.

I was a lot in the dark as to what was going on as the station on my hotel TV didn't include the commentary, all you had was the actual game and crowd noise - which I thought was a cracking idea !
So I didn't have to suffer listening to the three clowns in the booth. I did laugh when the TV showed the half time race with the collection of weebles, especially the booing that all the Theismann, Irvin and Kornheiser got. The TV went back to the booth just before the second half and all three were sat there with faces like a smacked ass - priceless !


Regarding the TWill and long ball incident. From the angles that I could see I'd say that his right arm was pulled back enough to stop him trying to make a two handed catch. I don't know what the commentators said so I'm basing it purely on the replays shown.

as for the rest of the game I'll have to wait til I get back home tomorrow afternoon to watch it properly and see for myself what happened. From what I've seen though the coaching needs reviewing, Tomlin needs to look at his schemes again to try and tighten things up. Finally the fans need to not go into panic mode as some seem to have done and start realising that this team isn't invincible.

Vikes
10-31-2006, 10:02 AM
It was a god test. We have a some work ahead of us to become an elite team. Everyone got beat lat nite. Goof game by the Pats.

PAvikesfan
10-31-2006, 10:08 AM
"Del" wrote:


"LuckyVike" wrote:


Don't try to blame T-Will for dropping that pass.
I think every single person on the board knows that you can't catch and 50 yard bomb(or whatever it was) with one hand while the other is being held down to your side and that IS what happened.


Well someone should post a link to the actual footage so we can see it again. I have it on TIVO and will watch it again, but I did not see his arm pinned, I saw his jiggly butt looking off into space while the ball fell into his arm.

Until someone can show me his arm was pinned or until I can get home and watch it again I'm calling kaka del toro on that one,


I saw that play.
The defender grabbed his arm at the forearm just as the ball came in.
the defender did not even play the ball, therefore it was one of the many bad calls or obvious non-calls by the officials.

whackthepack
10-31-2006, 10:14 AM
T-Will did not see the ball, I don't care if his arm was shoved up his butt he didn't know where the ball was and if he had a fishing net he would not have made the catch because he was looking at something other than the ball!

V4L
10-31-2006, 10:17 AM
I'll give him a pass on this one..

Lost the ball.. It happens..

And the defender did grab his arm at the forearm.. So even if he did see it, I
doubt he would snag it






One Love

CCthebest
10-31-2006, 10:18 AM
Why all the hate for Twill? Would have been a hard catch even if someone wasnt puling his arm. I thought he did good last nite.

Tomlin should have adjusted for the 4-5 wr sets. Our LBs couldnt cover Brad Johnson if he was playing receiver for the other team. Winfield and Smoot both gave too much cusion and still got their a$$s handed to them.

BJ should watch tape of Tom Brady all week. Brady hits all of his receivers in stride. BJ can only complete the little dumps passes. And even those the recievers really have to adjust alot.

If BJ and Boll hadent thrown interceptions in the red zone, the score could have been 31-21 which is alot better then 31-7.

I mentioned in another thread that if the refs hadnt blown so many calls, the game may have been different and I still think so. Any momentum we had, the refs took.

Not going to say anything negative about Childress cause every time I do I get hate.

Braddock
10-31-2006, 10:19 AM
The best way to look at this game is with optimism and a level head. Childress and our coaching staff (Tomlin especially!) learned something from the masters. Our defense was picked apart and Childress needs to learn that to become an elite team you have to be able to rely on ALL aspects of your team: passing, running, defense, special teams. THIS IS A TRANSITION, LEARNING YEAR. We've had success but let's not get all superbowl crazy. I'm sorry, but it's not happening this year. Our coaches learned a lot hopefully and that will carry over for years ahead.

About T-jack and Carter. I believe they are the future, but just b/c they are the future does NOT mean they are the present answer we need. I wanted T-Jack in very badly last night, but this morning, after I'd calmed down, I realized it was best to put Bollinger in instead. Let him take the sacks and get the ints, not T-Jack. He just came off knee surgery, why put him in with a crazy defense like they had and have shots taken at that knee. Also, it avoids any frustration he would have experienced. I'm not saying we should baby him, but he still doesn't know how he'll pan out in this league, and the better start we give him, the better chance he'll succeed for us. Carter on the other hand, I feel we should have thrown in a couple series toward the end. For a WR playing time is playing time, and I think the experience on MNF against the Pats would have been good for him. That's the only question I have.

The officiating sucked balls, I don't know they why they were so horrible. The Wiggins first down would have been pretty nice to have. Not saying we would have won the game, but that was a horrible call.... I was livid.

Why did we try to shootout with Brady? Why?.............why?

Mckinnie was disappointing. His goal over the offseason, other than spending that $46 million or whatever, should be to get stronger and faster, no matter what. We need speed on our O-line more than size. Hutch played well.

Overall, it's sad that it was such a blowout. Losing isn't horrible, but being embarrassed is. Now I owe one of my frat bros a case of beer. Damn...

PAvikesfan
10-31-2006, 10:28 AM
yep, it is not so bad that we lost, but we didn't score on offense at all.
we didn't get shut out but we could have.
hopefully, because of our weak remaining schedule, the vikes will see the wildcard.
only chicago and maybe the jets should be real tough for our decent team.

cajunvike
10-31-2006, 10:33 AM
"Braddock" wrote:


The best way to look at this game is with optimism and a level head. Childress and our coaching staff (Tomlin especially!) learned something from the masters. Our defense was picked apart and Childress needs to learn that to become an elite team you have to be able to rely on ALL aspects of your team: passing, running, defense, special teams. THIS IS A TRANSITION, LEARNING YEAR. We've had success but let's not get all superbowl crazy. I'm sorry, but it's not happening this year. Our coaches learned a lot hopefully and that will carry over for years ahead.

About T-jack and Carter. I believe they are the future, but just b/c they are the future does NOT mean they are the present answer we need. I wanted T-Jack in very badly last night, but this morning, after I'd calmed down, I realized it was best to put Bollinger in instead. Let him take the sacks and get the ints, not T-Jack. He just came off knee surgery, why put him in with a crazy defense like they had and have shots taken at that knee. Also, it avoids any frustration he would have experienced. I'm not saying we should baby him, but he still doesn't know how he'll pan out in this league, and the better start we give him, the better chance he'll succeed for us. Carter on the other hand, I feel we should have thrown in a couple series toward the end. For a WR playing time is playing time, and I think the experience on MNF against the Pats would have been good for him. That's the only question I have.

The officiating sucked balls, I don't know they why they were so horrible. The Wiggins first down would have been pretty nice to have. Not saying we would have won the game, but that was a horrible call.... I was livid.

Why did we try to shootout with Brady? Why?.............why?

Mckinnie was disappointing. His goal over the offseason, other than spending that $46 million or whatever, should be to get stronger and faster, no matter what. We need speed on our O-line more than size. Hutch played well.

Overall, it's sad that it was such a blowout. Losing isn't horrible, but being embarrassed is. Now I owe one of my frat bros a case of beer. gol 'darnit...


Open one of the bottles and piss in it...heh heh heh!!!

Braddock
10-31-2006, 10:38 AM
and St.Louis. They'll be tough, but they rely on the run, so we should be able to stall them.

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 10:40 AM
"CCthebest" wrote:


Why all the hate for Twill? Would have been a hard catch even if someone wasnt puling his arm. I thought he did good last nite.

Tomlin should have adjusted for the 4-5 wr sets. Our LBs couldnt cover Brad Johnson if he was playing receiver for the other team. Winfield and Smoot both gave too much cusion and still got their a$$s handed to them.

BJ should watch tape of Tom Brady all week. Brady hits all of his receivers in stride. BJ can only complete the little dumps passes. And even those the recievers really have to adjust alot.

If BJ and Boll hadent thrown interceptions in the red zone, the score could have been 31-21 which is alot better then 31-7.

I mentioned in another thread that if the refs hadnt blown so many calls, the game may have been different and I still think so. Any momentum we had, the refs took.

Not going to say anything negative about Childress cause every time I do I get hate.


I have no hate for T-will I am not crying about benching him or trading him or running him over with a truck. I was merely stating the ball hit him in the hand and he did not catch it and if this was the first time that had happened then so be it but it isnt.

LuckyVike
10-31-2006, 10:44 AM
"Del" wrote:


"LuckyVike" wrote:


Don't try to blame T-Will for dropping that pass.
I think every single person on the board knows that you can't catch and 50 yard bomb(or whatever it was) with one hand while the other is being held down to your side and that IS what happened.


Well someone should post a link to the actual footage so we can see it again. I have it on TIVO and will watch it again, but I did not see his arm pinned, I saw his jiggly butt looking off into space while the ball fell into his arm.

Until someone can show me his arm was pinned or until I can get home and watch it again I'm calling kaka del toro on that one,


Perhaps I could be mistaken but I'm almost certain I'm right.
In the replay I saw last night, it looked as if the CB was using his left arm to slow the movement of T-Will's right arm.
The CB didn't have it pinned by any means but he also didn't let T-Will pull it up in front of him where it would've been if he hadn't been held.

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 10:48 AM
"LuckyVike" wrote:


"Del" wrote:


"LuckyVike" wrote:


Don't try to blame T-Will for dropping that pass.
I think every single person on the board knows that you can't catch and 50 yard bomb(or whatever it was) with one hand while the other is being held down to your side and that IS what happened.


Well someone should post a link to the actual footage so we can see it again. I have it on TIVO and will watch it again, but I did not see his arm pinned, I saw his jiggly butt looking off into space while the ball fell into his arm.

Until someone can show me his arm was pinned or until I can get home and watch it again I'm calling kaka del toro on that one,


Perhaps I could be mistaken but I'm almost certain I'm right.
In the replay I saw last night, it looked as if the CB was using his left arm to slow the movement of T-Will's right arm.
The CB didn't have it pinned by any means but he also didn't let T-Will pull it up in front of him where it would've been if he hadn't been held.


You could be right. Others here have stated the same thing. If it sounded like T-Will bashing I apologize to those who were taken aback. I like the guy I just want him to make that catch regardless.

LuckyVike
10-31-2006, 10:51 AM
"Del" wrote:


"LuckyVike" wrote:


"Del" wrote:


"LuckyVike" wrote:


Don't try to blame T-Will for dropping that pass.
I think every single person on the board knows that you can't catch and 50 yard bomb(or whatever it was) with one hand while the other is being held down to your side and that IS what happened.


Well someone should post a link to the actual footage so we can see it again. I have it on TIVO and will watch it again, but I did not see his arm pinned, I saw his jiggly butt looking off into space while the ball fell into his arm.

Until someone can show me his arm was pinned or until I can get home and watch it again I'm calling kaka del toro on that one,


Perhaps I could be mistaken but I'm almost certain I'm right.
In the replay I saw last night, it looked as if the CB was using his left arm to slow the movement of T-Will's right arm.
The CB didn't have it pinned by any means but he also didn't let T-Will pull it up in front of him where it would've been if he hadn't been held.


You could be right. Others here have stated the same thing. If it sounded like T-Will bashing I apologize to those who were taken aback. I like the guy I just want him to make that catch regardless.


After you check that on Tivo, tell me what actually happened.
I only got to see one replay of it.
I in no way shap or form am a fan boy of any one player.
If they mess up, I'll admit it.
I know T-will has struggled holding onto the ball this year.

Braddock
10-31-2006, 11:03 AM
"cajunvike" wrote:


"Braddock" wrote:


The best way to look at this game is with optimism and a level head. Childress and our coaching staff (Tomlin especially!) learned something from the masters. Our defense was picked apart and Childress needs to learn that to become an elite team you have to be able to rely on ALL aspects of your team: passing, running, defense, special teams. THIS IS A TRANSITION, LEARNING YEAR. We've had success but let's not get all superbowl crazy. I'm sorry, but it's not happening this year. Our coaches learned a lot hopefully and that will carry over for years ahead.

About T-jack and Carter. I believe they are the future, but just b/c they are the future does NOT mean they are the present answer we need. I wanted T-Jack in very badly last night, but this morning, after I'd calmed down, I realized it was best to put Bollinger in instead. Let him take the sacks and get the ints, not T-Jack. He just came off knee surgery, why put him in with a crazy defense like they had and have shots taken at that knee. Also, it avoids any frustration he would have experienced. I'm not saying we should baby him, but he still doesn't know how he'll pan out in this league, and the better start we give him, the better chance he'll succeed for us. Carter on the other hand, I feel we should have thrown in a couple series toward the end. For a WR playing time is playing time, and I think the experience on MNF against the Pats would have been good for him. That's the only question I have.

The officiating sucked balls, I don't know they why they were so horrible. The Wiggins first down would have been pretty nice to have. Not saying we would have won the game, but that was a horrible call.... I was livid.

Why did we try to shootout with Brady? Why?.............why?

Mckinnie was disappointing. His goal over the offseason, other than spending that $46 million or whatever, should be to get stronger and faster, no matter what. We need speed on our O-line more than size. Hutch played well.

Overall, it's sad that it was such a blowout. Losing isn't horrible, but being embarrassed is. Now I owe one of my frat bros a case of beer. gol 'darnit...


Open one of the bottles and piss in it...heh heh heh!!!


It's cans. not bottles :(

Warp
10-31-2006, 11:26 AM
I have to agree with everyone else and say Childress got out-coached BADLY last night. It was painful to watch our offense and defense. I hope we can get our pass defense in check, if we can we are a top 5 defense imo. Now i wanna see the vikings destroy the 49ers, and we should!

VikemanX84
10-31-2006, 11:33 AM
My this thread is growing quickly, I can't keep up!

Anyways, I was fortunate enough to be at this game and was one of the thousands booing Tony Kornheiser.


I saw 1 positive in this whole game and that positive is Chris Kluwe.
The man is a beast. Averaged almost 50 yards a punt. He bailed our offense out and gave our defense a chance and they both blew his contributions.
The worst part about BJs three interceptions was that our star wasn't able to get into the game.
Skoal Kluwe!

Brad Johnson was Brad Johnson.
He made the same bad decisions he has been making all year and the Patriots are good enough to make him for each and every one.
Brad Johnson can't win us football games he can only lose them or not lose them and we knew that comming into the season.
Honestly I don't know if T-Jack will be a saviour but I think him learning will give us the same result as Brad Johnson and help us in the future. We've got a stretch of easy games to which T-Jack could get accostumed to life in the NFL a little easier and it's not throwing him to the Wolves.
He should start.

What makes Tom Brady so great is that he can get rid of the ball quickly and make the right decisions.
If you watch him take a three step drop you'll notice that on the third step the ball is out of his hands. He doesn't hold onto it and we couldn't put pressure on him even when we tried. And we did try Brady got the ball out to the open guy and then we forgot how to tackle.
It was a bad defensive game plan and then they apparently can't adapt.

This exposes another huge weakness in our team - depth at the Cb position.
Whittacker isn't any good and Grifin is promising but not there yet.
I'll say it again - should have kept Brian Williams.

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 11:43 AM
IN the past I have been overly aggressive on the Tavaris subject. I am willing to be less of an ass now that Brad has played a few games, but I have to stick with this:

Tavaris Jackson is our third string QB he was made our third string QB even before he was injured so how does one go about waking up one morning and say OMG I'm going to start my thrid string QB this week.

I'm serious here. Tavaris has to beat out Bollinger. Plain and simple. He has to show Childress he can handle the game through his practicing because practice translates to the field ALWAYS.

So if Tavaris isn't playing I have to assume he isn't good enough to do any better then Brad.

Either that or assume Childress is making a mistake. Which since he coaches and since he sees the guy grow,learn,play. I highly doubt we can make that call over him. It sure isn't money. Childress can't be like "I CANT SIT BRAD! HE MAKES ONE MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR!!!!"

So if Tavaris gets in the game I am going to assume he is the best man for the job, and I will cheer my ass off, but what is going to happen is Childress is not going to start Tavaris and over the course of the season fans will begin to turn on him because he is not doing what they think is best.

I will trust the coach for now. 4-3 going into the "Easy" part of our scheduel helps make that call.

Again not flaming, not opposed to the idea, just cannot see it happening that our third string QB magically gets placed as the starter.

Warp
10-31-2006, 11:44 AM
"Braddock" wrote:


and St.Louis. They'll be tough, but they rely on the run, so we should be able to stall them.

Are you serious? The rams may not have the dominant passing game like they once had but Mark Bulger is a very capible passer. In the same mold as Tom Brady IMO. Not as good as him for sure but still a nice consistant passer who doesnt make bad mistakes. If the rams spread us out like the Pats did, they have the talent to beat us like the patriots did. Unless we sort out that horrible soft zone we have been playing.

VikemanX84
10-31-2006, 12:01 PM
I think Tarvaris is #3 because of his youth.
Coaches usually do that with a player they don't want to play.
I don't think it is uncommon.
However, coaches also have their rookies as #2 guys as well.
I just think that Childress doesn't want to have to put Tarvaris in if Brad goes down with an injury for a couple plays or whatever.
I think he wants Tarvaris to either be starting or not playing.
I don't mind this philosophy I just think Tarvaris should be take the reigns.


I also didn't comment about Williamson.
It was blatant pass interference and if I had a beer in my hand I probably would have thrown it out onto the field.
I almost threw up I was cussing at the refs so hard.
It was bullshit that it wasn't called. T-Will had a good game with some nice catches, he is making strides and just needs to be able to find that deep ball!


St. Louis will tough. With Holt and Bulger they don't need to rely on the run.
I'm not afraid of them, though. Scott Linehan calls plays in the red zone worse than anyone I have seen in a long time and we should be able to match FGs.
If Linehan has one of those games where he calls good plays inside the 20 then we should be worried.

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 12:09 PM
"VikemanX84" wrote:


I think Tarvaris is #3 because of his youth.
Coaches usually do that with a player they don't want to play.
I don't think it is uncommon.
However, coaches also have their rookies as #2 guys as well.
I just think that Childress doesn't want to have to put Tarvaris in if Brad goes down with an injury for a couple plays or whatever.
I think he wants Tarvaris to either be starting or not playing.
I don't mind this philosophy I just think Tarvaris should be take the reigns.


I also didn't comment about Williamson.
It was blatant pass interference and if I had a beer in my hand I probably would have thrown it out onto the field.
I almost threw up I was cussing at the refs so hard.
It was kaka del toro that it wasn't called. T-Will had a good game with some nice catches, he is making strides and just needs to be able to find that deep ball!


St. Louis will tough. With Holt and Bulger they don't need to rely on the run.
I'm not afraid of them, though. Scott Linehan calls plays in the red zone worse than anyone I have seen in a long time and we should be able to match FGs.
If Linehan has one of those games where he calls good plays inside the 20 then we should be worried.


Williamson did have a solid game and some of those catches he made were very difficult. My problem is Brad Johnson as we know is not able to throw the deep ball often with accuracy. When he does it needs to be brought it. This has been a struggle all season for Williamson. He may be getting a bad rap on this one because of his past drops but he can't even find the ball he is looking around in the air when it hits his hand.

This is definately something that will probably be answered during the week from a press conference or something. We will hear what happened I am sure.

Don't laugh but the one team that scares me more then the Rams is the Dolphins. Small fast ends, an offense that can pass for 300+ a good set of CB's and LB's. The dolphins will be no cake walk. If there is a change at QB I want it to happen before the Miami game!

SharperVikings
10-31-2006, 12:17 PM
"VikemanX84" wrote:


I think Tarvaris is #3 because of his youth.
Coaches usually do that with a player they don't want to play.
I don't think it is uncommon.
However, coaches also have their rookies as #2 guys as well.
I just think that Childress doesn't want to have to put Tarvaris in if Brad goes down with an injury for a couple plays or whatever.
I think he wants Tarvaris to either be starting or not playing.
I don't mind this philosophy I just think Tarvaris should be take the reigns.


I also didn't comment about Williamson.
It was blatant pass interference and if I had a beer in my hand I probably would have thrown it out onto the field.
I almost threw up I was cussing at the refs so hard.
It was kaka del toro that it wasn't called. T-Will had a good game with some nice catches, he is making strides and just needs to be able to find that deep ball!


St. Louis will tough. With Holt and Bulger they don't need to rely on the run.
I'm not afraid of them, though. Scott Linehan calls plays in the red zone worse than anyone I have seen in a long time and we should be able to match FGs.
If Linehan has one of those games where he calls good plays inside the 20 then we should be worried.


Very good point.
I agree on how we should be worred with Holt and Bulger, especially after last nights game!


I think that Childress and Tomlin will get things shaped up for this next game.
One thing, while looking back at the game, I wish we would have blitzed more.
On most of the plays we blitzed on, we got in there and disrupted Brady!


I believe that the coaches will shape everything and we will see it in our next game!

fungus83
10-31-2006, 12:19 PM
Well, there are 5 pages and I didn't read everyone's post... I scanned through most of them but I thought I'd give some input... Some of this already might have been said but oh well...

Lets talk about Brad Johnson. He had a pretty bad game and I didn't like what I saw from him at all. He made some really bad decisions that he normally doesn't make. I understand that usually in a loss, the QB takes a lot of the blame, especially when he throws 3 interceptions... but let's talk about the offensive line a little bit too. I mean, McKinnie and M. Johnson were getting beat all night. Some plays it seemed as if we didn't even have an O. Line and they weren't even bringing the house. People were coming in untouched. People were running circles around our big oaf McKinnie. I'll put my throat out and say I have not seen this line play as well as it should be playing all season for the money it's getting paid - even when Taylor had great games.

I'm worried. Our defense has been exploited and I was really worried this was going to happen. As soon as I saw the Pats line up in 5 wide, I immediately knew things weren't gonna be good. Now, I'm not gonna blame it all on Smoot (even though he sucked last night), it was our entire secondary. Teams are going to know now, like Del said, that our zone is soft. I can't believe the padding we give these recievers some times, it just blows my mind. What made me even more mad is that it seemed like our defense didn't adjust the entire night. They went 5 wide almost the entire game!! And our secondary coudln't do crap about it. That's what scares me. Their front four did great against our defensive front four. Brady could have taken a nap in the
backfield, woke up, had a cup of orange juice, and then decided he wanted to make a throw.

I agree with everything Del said about coaching. Childress is doing great but last night, he got suckered in to abandoning his game plan and going into a shootout with arguably the best QB in the game right now.

Thats all I got...
:) just had to vent a little and get some thoughts out there.

SKOL

Freya
10-31-2006, 12:19 PM
If the coaches take the game tape and learn everything there is to learn from it, we will benefit big time in the long run. In that regard, this disaster of a game could be more of a benefit than had we won, because the reality is that if we had won, it would have been because the Pats were having an "off" night more than anything else. IMO.

Having said that......

What an awful game to watch. I really suffered. I feel traumatised and quite on the verge of tears.

Oh, and brill OP, Del!

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 12:24 PM
"Freya" wrote:


If the coaches take the game tape and learn everything there is to learn from it, we will benefit big time in the long run. In that regard, this disaster of a game could be more of a benefit than had we won, because the reality is that if we had won, it would have been because the Pats were having an "off" night more than anything else. IMO.

Having said that......

What an awful game to watch. I really suffered. I feel traumatised and quite on the verge of tears.

Oh, and brill OP, Del!






Dont be too sad Freya. It is a short week until we see the Vikes play again. I agree the coaches will learn from this. I would hate to see Childress abandon the run again when only down 7-0



Fungus good post man!

snowinapril
10-31-2006, 12:32 PM
This is the 3rd time I have posted this, and I can't get anyone to bite on this at all.

What if Childress didn't abandon the run game.

What if he was following his game plan to pass on the team that was preparing for the run.


By the time that we were down by 14 pts, it was difficult to go back to the run.


I am not sure he abandoned the run as much as he was following his game plan.

Tough Call!
Wrong foot forward to strat off!

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 12:37 PM
"snowinapril" wrote:


This is the 3rd time I have posted this, and I can't get anyone to bite on this at all.

What if Childress didn't abandon the run game.

What if he was following his game plan to pass on the team that was preparing for the run.


By the time that we were down by 14 pts, it was difficult to go back to the run.


I am not sure he abandoned the run as much as he was following his game plan.

Tough Call!
Wrong foot forward to strat off!


I dont see how he would want a shootout with the pats, but you could be right.

We are discussing in the yell right now if we think Tomlin should have switched to a 3-4 defense. I think it would have worked. Who knows.

VikemanX84
10-31-2006, 12:37 PM
I totally agree that this game can help us.
I think Del said in the orginal post that the game following a game like this tells you a lot about your team.
This is true and we'll see if the coaching staff can make the right adjustments and learn from this game.
It could be a longterm blessing in surprise.

I think any team where the quarterback situation isn't solid (and Miami's is anything but) shouldn't be scary.
They were 9-7 last year and aren't a push over because they've got talent a good (but young) coach.
I'm not worried because without a solid QB they are no match for our defense.
Their defense is good so we're going to have to win with turnovers and good field position and we can definitely play that game.

snowinapril
10-31-2006, 12:43 PM
"Del" wrote:


"snowinapril" wrote:


This is the 3rd time I have posted this, and I can't get anyone to bite on this at all.

What if Childress didn't abandon the run game.

What if he was following his game plan to pass on the team that was preparing for the run.


By the time that we were down by 14 pts, it was difficult to go back to the run.


I am not sure he abandoned the run as much as he was following his game plan.

Tough Call!
Wrong foot forward to strat off!


I dont see how he would want a shootout with the pats, but you could be right.

We are discussing in the yell right now if we think Tomlin should have switched to a 3-4 defense. I think it would have worked. Who knows.


The first set of plays were scripted right!

The second possesion might have been (abandonment of the run) panic or left over script from the stalled first possesion.
No matter how you put it, it was a coaching error to learn from.

The mindset should have been We Can Score then we get the ball back after half time, score again.
Now it is a close game. 17-10 or 17-14 with the rest of the second half to play.
With that mind set, you could have put the run game back in to affect.
We went into panic and said to ourselves we are going to get blown out if we don't score quickly.
That is toally different from previous games? ? ? ?

snowinapril
10-31-2006, 12:51 PM
Atleast we won't have to worry about our team getting too cocky.

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 12:52 PM
"snowinapril" wrote:


"Del" wrote:


"snowinapril" wrote:


This is the 3rd time I have posted this, and I can't get anyone to bite on this at all.

What if Childress didn't abandon the run game.

What if he was following his game plan to pass on the team that was preparing for the run.


By the time that we were down by 14 pts, it was difficult to go back to the run.


I am not sure he abandoned the run as much as he was following his game plan.

Tough Call!
Wrong foot forward to strat off!


I dont see how he would want a shootout with the pats, but you could be right.

We are discussing in the yell right now if we think Tomlin should have switched to a 3-4 defense. I think it would have worked. Who knows.


The first set of plays were scripted right!

The second possesion might have been (abandonment of the run) panic or left over script from the stalled first possesion.
No matter how you put it, it was a coaching error to learn from.

The mindset should have been We Can Score then we get the ball back after half time, score again.
Now it is a close game. 17-10 or 17-14 with the rest of the second half to play.
With that mind set, you could have put the run game back in to affect.
We went into panic and said to ourselves we are going to get blown out if we don't score quickly.
That is toally different from previous games? ? ? ?



I dont know that we have ever gotten an answer if the plays are scripted on the first drive. I think they are.

Maybe he was trying to get cute. If what you say is true that is what I would call it. Trying to out coach someone. Trying to play the chess match if you will. Overthinking....overcoaching...

It is bad for the players and it happens all the time. Best to stick to the things you do well and let your players make the plays imo.

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 01:07 PM
A few more points of discussion for those who want to partake is the 3-4 defense. Would it have helped against the 5 wide set.

Also a point of interest on pressure. They have 5 wide so it limits the blitz packages. Obviously they have 5 lineman we have 4. So if you blitz one lb there is a body to pick him up. You blitz more then one there is an open man on the field.

cogitans
10-31-2006, 01:19 PM
"Del" wrote:


A few more points of discussion for those who want to partake is the 3-4 defense. Would it have helped against the 5 wide set.

Also a point of interest on pressure. They have 5 wide so it limits the blitz packages. Obviously they have 5 lineman we have 4. So if you blitz one lb there is a body to pick him up. You blitz more then one there is an open man on the field.


Well you're the coach. But just of the top of my head, I would think that making a move to a 3-4 D that you have not run in practice would mean a lot more confussion of our players. Then we would have fallen serious apart as a team.

cajunvike
10-31-2006, 01:23 PM
"Del" wrote:


"snowinapril" wrote:


This is the 3rd time I have posted this, and I can't get anyone to bite on this at all.

What if Childress didn't abandon the run game.

What if he was following his game plan to pass on the team that was preparing for the run.


By the time that we were down by 14 pts, it was difficult to go back to the run.


I am not sure he abandoned the run as much as he was following his game plan.

Tough Call!
Wrong foot forward to strat off!


I dont see how he would want a shootout with the pats, but you could be right.

We are discussing in the yell right now if we think Tomlin should have switched to a 3-4 defense. I think it would have worked. Who knows.


Your boy Cottrell would've switched!!!
:D

Desertvikingfan
10-31-2006, 01:31 PM
We should be playing to our strengths. Don't think the 3-4 is one of them. However, it would have given us the opppurtunity to
bring pressure from different places. Obviously our front four are not up to the task. The defensive game plan seems to me (like I know something Tomlin doesn't) should have been to make them beat us with the run. We should have come out to stop the pass, forcing them to play into our strength, instead of visa versa.

The Dropper
10-31-2006, 01:39 PM
"Del" wrote:


A few more points of discussion for those who want to partake is the 3-4 defense. Would it have helped against the 5 wide set.

Also a point of interest on pressure. They have 5 wide so it limits the blitz packages. Obviously they have 5 lineman we have 4. So if you blitz one lb there is a body to pick him up. You blitz more then one there is an open man on the field.


Considering the way our linebackers were playing coverage with three of them, I don't see how playing four of them would have helped.
I think that once we saw that they were going to be playing 4 and 5 WR sets, we should have just put nothing but corners and safeties out on the field. Rush the four D-linemen on every play, with everyone else in coverage, and mix it up with zone blitzes or safety blitzes (I for one, would have loved to see Greg Blue put the hurt on Brady).

But on the other hand, when your Nickel corner spends more time spinning like a top than actually covering someone, I'm not so sure that would've worked either.

On a wholly different subject, that of the Troy Williamson dropped ball, it seemed to me like he was trying too hard to get the interference call, and not on actually catching the gol' darnit ball. I mean, it probably was interference, but if Troy would have just ignored the defender and concentrated on the ball instead, he still should have caught it. This is especially true when you consider that you're not going to get that many well-thrown deep balls from BJ, so you've got to make the most of ones you do get.

x-ray jeff
10-31-2006, 01:48 PM
I can't imagine a switch to the 3-4 during a game.However they do line up in a "prevent" sometimes,so it wouldn't have been totally new.I just think that since they knew Brady was attacking the soft/cushiony zone , they could have baited him into an INT by coming off the man they appeared to be covering.Or something!!Cripes!

Del Rio
10-31-2006, 01:58 PM
I'm not a fan of the 3-4 as a base defense but I do think it has it's situational uses. I imagine if they did have a 3-4 in the arsenal Tomlin would have used it. I was not suggesting they just draw plays up in the sand, but I think it would serve a purpose to practice a 3-4. We have the personel and it would force them to run. They would almost HAVE to run the ball if we offered a three man front.

Just food for thought.

VikemanX84
10-31-2006, 04:21 PM
I like the idea of switching to a 3-4 in certain situations. I think have DT and Napo in the middle could
have helped us cover those slants a little better.
If our coaches had coached it up prior to this meeting it could have been effective.

The only problem was that we would still have to tackle which we did very little of yesterday.

V-Unit
10-31-2006, 04:51 PM
"V-Unit" wrote:


NOTE TO MIKE TOMLIN!

The Pats are pass heavy in the red zone. Out of Brady's 10 TD passes, 8 were from inside the 20. If we are going to hold them to FGs when they do get in the red zone. We have to defend against the pass well. Belicheck is the kind of guy who uses Playaction on the 3 yard line. Beware of the short TD pass!


Sigh.....I just don't get how we didn't see the short passes coming. Granted I thought they would run more than they did, but when they passed I was expecting short stuff, and we let the short stuff kill us. This is my first thumbs down to Tomlin. Bump and Run was needed early and often, and he refuses to use it even though he has two good corners at his disposal. Smoot and Winfield vs Pats receivers was a matchup in our favor and we didn't exploit it at all. Instead just sat back in zone and let the Pats exploit their mismatch, Brady vs. our LBs in coverage.

Brad Johnson played like shit, no doubt about that. He deserved to be benched, but no one here expected Bollinger to lead a comeback. He and the refs kept us from ever being in the game.

WOW bad refs. They seriously need to have stricter punishment for refs who blow challenges. For live play you can use the speed of the game as an excuse, but when you slow it down, see it five times, and still get it wrong, you deserve to be fired. A ref should enter a replay booth thinking, "If I get this call wrong I'm going to lose my job."

Williamson dropped one deep pass in which he would have had to make a one-handed grab, with his other being grabbed at by the defender. Nevertheless he led the team in receptions for the 2nd team this season. Nothing special but he is showing improvement. I stand by him 100%

I'm not getting a Moore jersey, he is probably one of my least favorite Vikings.

Bottomline is that we just got outcoached. Belicheck is a football genius. Tomlin should have known that sitting in a zone wouldn't work, and neither would bringing the house on 3rd and goal. They had two young OL in, and we didn't take advantage with Kwill facing double teams all night. I think we should have brought 5 every play with constant stunts. Offensively, turnovers and penalties killed us. Classic Vikings loss on a night where I thought the New Vikings would show their ability to win in dramatic fashion.

ultravikingfan
10-31-2006, 05:28 PM
"V-Unit" wrote:


"V-Unit" wrote:


NOTE TO MIKE TOMLIN!

The Pats are pass heavy in the red zone. Out of Brady's 10 TD passes, 8 were from inside the 20. If we are going to hold them to FGs when they do get in the red zone. We have to defend against the pass well. Belicheck is the kind of guy who uses Playaction on the 3 yard line. Beware of the short TD pass!


Sigh.....I just don't get how we didn't see the short passes coming. Granted I thought they would run more than they did, but when they passed I was expecting short stuff, and we let the short stuff kill us. This is my first thumbs down to Tomlin. Bump and Run was needed early and often, and he refuses to use it even though he has two good corners at his disposal. Smoot and Winfield vs Pats receivers was a matchup in our favor and we didn't exploit it at all. Instead just sat back in zone and let the Pats exploit their mismatch, Brady vs. our LBs in coverage.

Brad Johnson played like pooh, no doubt about that. He deserved to be benched, but no one here expected Bollinger to lead a comeback. He and the refs kept us from ever being in the game.

WOW bad refs. They seriously need to have stricter punishment for refs who blow challenges. For live play you can use the speed of the game as an excuse, but when you slow it down, see it five times, and still get it wrong, you deserve to be fired. A ref should enter a replay booth thinking, "If I get this call wrong I'm going to lose my job."

Williamson dropped one deep pass in which he would have had to make a one-handed grab, with his other being grabbed at by the defender. Nevertheless he led the team in receptions for the 2nd team this season. Nothing special but he is showing improvement. I stand by him 100%

I'm not getting a Moore jersey, he is probably one of my least favorite Vikings.

Bottomline is that we just got outcoached. Belicheck is a football genius. Tomlin should have known that sitting in a zone wouldn't work, and neither would bringing the house on 3rd and goal. They had two young OL in, and we didn't take advantage with Kwill facing double teams all night. I think we should have brought 5 every play with constant stunts. Offensively, turnovers and penalties killed us. Classic Vikings loss on a night where I thought the New Vikings would show their ability to win in dramatic fashion.


We knew the short passes were coming.
Brady had all day and then some to throw where he pleased and find the soft spot.

Big C
10-31-2006, 06:04 PM
I saw Brady make a LOT of 3rd down conversions on in routes, hook routes and slants. To me that is common sense. However, EVERY time the Vikes offense faced 3rd and long, we went for out routes and those damn "fade" like routes (ball is thrown to WR with single coverage down the line). I don't understand why we wouldn't opt for these higher percentage passes. Are we afraid to pass over the middle?

We need to give Memo a few more touches. When you have two good RBs with greatly different running styles and vision, you can to mix it up. Maybe split the carries 70%-30% between Taylor and Memo. They seem to be the most potent offensive tools right now so we should use them. It befuddles me to see Artose Pinner get rushing carries instead of Moore.

VikemanX84
10-31-2006, 07:07 PM
What was so wrong with Ciatrick Fason that we had to waste a roster spot on a guy like Artose Pinner?

I agree, Mewelde needs more touches.
I really like what this guy brings to the table.
If only he could handle 25-30 carries a game!

The Dropper
10-31-2006, 08:58 PM
"Big" wrote:


I saw Brady make a LOT of 3rd down conversions on in routes, hook routes and slants. To me that is common sense. However, EVERY time the Vikes offense faced 3rd and long, we went for out routes and those gol 'darnit "fade" like routes (ball is thrown to WR with single coverage down the line). I don't understand why we wouldn't opt for these higher percentage passes. Are we afraid to pass over the middle?

We need to give Memo a few more touches. When you have two good RBs with greatly different running styles and vision, you can to mix it up. Maybe split the carries 70%-30% between Taylor and Memo. They seem to be the most potent offensive tools right now so we should use them. It befuddles me to see Artose Pinner get rushing carries instead of Moore.


Considering how often our offense brings up 3rd downs, that pretty much is the percentage that Taylor and Mewelde are on the field. Though, I see your point in maybe not using Mewelde exclusively on 3rd downs.

shockzilla
10-31-2006, 09:06 PM
Personally, I'm tired of seeing the 4-5 yard passes on 3rd and 8, 3rd and 9. Can anyone explain to me WHAT THE HELL is the point of that?

The Dropper
10-31-2006, 09:11 PM
"Del" wrote:


I'm not a fan of the 3-4 as a base defense but I do think it has it's situational uses. I imagine if they did have a 3-4 in the arsenal Tomlin would have used it. I was not suggesting they just draw plays up in the sand, but I think it would serve a purpose to practice a 3-4. We have the personel and it would force them to run. They would almost HAVE to run the ball if we offered a three man front.

Just food for thought.


Alright, I'll bite on this one. You're saying we have the personnel, but I'm not entirely convinced. Perhaps you can bring me around. I certainly don't think putting Thomas in as a 4th LB would have helped last night because, as I said earlier, out LB's were having enough trouble in coverage as it was. Now that leaves either a defensive tackle or another corner (or I suppose, one could argue for a safety).

Regarding a tackle, I'd bring up two points. One, we're already down to backups with James being out for the season, so I'm not sure that would add much. Two, and this is a question I don't know the answer to, would dropping a tackle back into 3-4 actually confuse a QB like Brady as opposed to just having that tackle on the line, or would the extra step given to a speed rusher help get to the QB?

As to putting extra defensive backs into a 3-4, well, who knows? It probably couldn't have been worse than having our LB's trying to cover WR's and TE's.

So, I guess from all of this I have a couple of questions besides those I just mentioned. What personnel do we have that should or could be used in a 3-4? And while I'll agree that "they'd almost have to run the ball," wouldn't we be at a bit of a disadvantage if they did?

BadlandsVikings
10-31-2006, 09:12 PM
"shockzilla" wrote:


Personally, I'm tired of seeing the 4-5 yard passes on 3rd and 8, 3rd and 9. Can anyone explain to me WHAT THE HELL is the point of that?


So the punter can earn his money.
::)

The Dropper
10-31-2006, 09:21 PM
"shockzilla" wrote:


Personally, I'm tired of seeing the 4-5 yard passes on 3rd and 8, 3rd and 9. Can anyone explain to me WHAT THE HELL is the point of that?


Well, I'll try. I think that when you're sitting at 3rd and long, it's pretty obvious to the defense that you're going to have to pass. So they're going to double up on your receivers to keep them on lockdown. So if no one is open, it's probably better to throw for short yardage and hope that your receiver/TE/running back can get some yard after the catch. Definitely beats an interception, but your chances of getting the first down still aren't very good. That's pretty much why it's best not to get in those situations in the first place.
Still, I wouldn't mind seeing the coaching staff put some better 3rd and long plays into their menu of plays seeing as how we seem to be in that situation all the freaking time. Maybe something like, oh I don't know, a five receiver set?

cajunvike
10-31-2006, 09:25 PM
"The" wrote:


"Del" wrote:


I'm not a fan of the 3-4 as a base defense but I do think it has it's situational uses. I imagine if they did have a 3-4 in the arsenal Tomlin would have used it. I was not suggesting they just draw plays up in the sand, but I think it would serve a purpose to practice a 3-4. We have the personel and it would force them to run. They would almost HAVE to run the ball if we offered a three man front.

Just food for thought.


Alright, I'll bite on this one. You're saying we have the personnel, but I'm not entirely convinced. Perhaps you can bring me around. I certainly don't think putting Thomas in as a 4th LB would have helped last night because, as I said earlier, out LB's were having enough trouble in coverage as it was. Now that leaves either a defensive tackle or another corner (or I suppose, one could argue for a safety).

Regarding a tackle, I'd bring up two points. One, we're already down to backups with James being out for the season, so I'm not sure that would add much. Two, and this is a question I don't know the answer to, would dropping a tackle back into 3-4 actually confuse a QB like Brady as opposed to just having that tackle on the line, or would the extra step given to a speed rusher help get to the QB?

As to putting extra defensive backs into a 3-4, well, who knows? It probably couldn't have been worse than having our LB's trying to cover WR's and TE's.

So, I guess from all of this I have a couple of questions besides those I just mentioned. What personnel do we have that should or could be used in a 3-4? And while I'll agree that "they'd almost have to run the ball," wouldn't we be at a bit of a disadvantage if they did?


They could have put in Blue and Griffin as "monster backs"...hybrid safety/LBs...to counter the 5 wides, for instance.
Heck, even HIGH SCHOOL coaches know that!

ultravikingfan
10-31-2006, 09:26 PM
"The" wrote:


"shockzilla" wrote:


Personally, I'm tired of seeing the 4-5 yard passes on 3rd and 8, 3rd and 9. Can anyone explain to me WHAT THE HELL is the point of that?


Well, I'll try. I think that when you're sitting at 3rd and long, it's pretty obvious to the defense that you're going to have to pass. So they're going to double up on your receivers to keep them on lockdown. So if no one is open, it's probably better to throw for short yardage and hope that your receiver/TE/running back can get some yard after the catch. Definitely beats an interception, but your chances of getting the first down still aren't very good. That's pretty much why it's best not to get in those situations in the first place.
Still, I wouldn't mind seeing the coaching staff put some better 3rd and long plays into their menu of plays seeing as how we seem to be in that situation all the freaking time. Maybe something like, oh I don't know, a five receiver set?


They cannot double up on every WR or TE.

I say we don;t have a checkdown.
Then we are forced to throw for a little more distance.

The Dropper
10-31-2006, 09:41 PM
"cajunvike" wrote:


"The" wrote:


"Del" wrote:


I'm not a fan of the 3-4 as a base defense but I do think it has it's situational uses. I imagine if they did have a 3-4 in the arsenal Tomlin would have used it. I was not suggesting they just draw plays up in the sand, but I think it would serve a purpose to practice a 3-4. We have the personel and it would force them to run. They would almost HAVE to run the ball if we offered a three man front.

Just food for thought.


Alright, I'll bite on this one. You're saying we have the personnel, but I'm not entirely convinced. Perhaps you can bring me around. I certainly don't think putting Thomas in as a 4th LB would have helped last night because, as I said earlier, out LB's were having enough trouble in coverage as it was. Now that leaves either a defensive tackle or another corner (or I suppose, one could argue for a safety).

Regarding a tackle, I'd bring up two points. One, we're already down to backups with James being out for the season, so I'm not sure that would add much. Two, and this is a question I don't know the answer to, would dropping a tackle back into 3-4 actually confuse a QB like Brady as opposed to just having that tackle on the line, or would the extra step given to a speed rusher help get to the QB?

As to putting extra defensive backs into a 3-4, well, who knows? It probably couldn't have been worse than having our LB's trying to cover WR's and TE's.

So, I guess from all of this I have a couple of questions besides those I just mentioned. What personnel do we have that should or could be used in a 3-4? And while I'll agree that "they'd almost have to run the ball," wouldn't we be at a bit of a disadvantage if they did?


They could have put in Blue and Griffin as "monster backs"...hybrid safety/LBs...to counter the 5 wides, for instance.
Heck, even HIGH SCHOOL coaches know that!


Personally, I love that idea!
:) But i still think you should bring a four man rush; not three.

The Dropper
10-31-2006, 09:46 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:


"The" wrote:


"shockzilla" wrote:


Personally, I'm tired of seeing the 4-5 yard passes on 3rd and 8, 3rd and 9. Can anyone explain to me WHAT THE HELL is the point of that?


Well, I'll try. I think that when you're sitting at 3rd and long, it's pretty obvious to the defense that you're going to have to pass. So they're going to double up on your receivers to keep them on lockdown. So if no one is open, it's probably better to throw for short yardage and hope that your receiver/TE/running back can get some yard after the catch. Definitely beats an interception, but your chances of getting the first down still aren't very good. That's pretty much why it's best not to get in those situations in the first place.
Still, I wouldn't mind seeing the coaching staff put some better 3rd and long plays into their menu of plays seeing as how we seem to be in that situation all the freaking time. Maybe something like, oh I don't know, a five receiver set?


They cannot double up on every WR or TE.

I say we don;t have a checkdown.
Then we are forced to throw for a little more distance.


You're right of course, they can't double everyone. What I meant to say was if no one is open, then you use the short pass and hope for extra yardage after the catch. But that's why I mentioned throwing in different, more creative plays where you'd actually have multiple receivers (including TE's or runningbacks) beyond the 1st down marker instead of behind it.

So basically I agree with everything you're saying.

VikemanX84
10-31-2006, 10:16 PM
The check downs are an attempt to get our best player, Chris Kluwe, into the game.
Personally I don't mind them anymore.
it seems to help us.
Our offense sucks it up, because thats what they do this season then Kluwe comes in and pins them inside the 10, 5 or even 1 and then ben Leber or Pat Williams comes and forces a fumble and someone picks it up or falls on it in the endzone.
So Kluwe and the Defense work together to do what Brad Johnson and the offense can't.
It got a us a win against Detroit and helped us to a win against Seattle.

Honestly there is no explanation for this kind of crap.
I would rather not risk the INT or fumble and punt it away on every third and long situation if this is what BJ is going to do.

Del Rio
11-01-2006, 06:39 AM
"The" wrote:


"Del" wrote:


I'm not a fan of the 3-4 as a base defense but I do think it has it's situational uses. I imagine if they did have a 3-4 in the arsenal Tomlin would have used it. I was not suggesting they just draw plays up in the sand, but I think it would serve a purpose to practice a 3-4. We have the personel and it would force them to run. They would almost HAVE to run the ball if we offered a three man front.

Just food for thought.


Alright, I'll bite on this one. You're saying we have the personnel, but I'm not entirely convinced. Perhaps you can bring me around. I certainly don't think putting Thomas in as a 4th LB would have helped last night because, as I said earlier, out LB's were having enough trouble in coverage as it was. Now that leaves either a defensive tackle or another corner (or I suppose, one could argue for a safety).

Regarding a tackle, I'd bring up two points. One, we're already down to backups with James being out for the season, so I'm not sure that would add much. Two, and this is a question I don't know the answer to, would dropping a tackle back into 3-4 actually confuse a QB like Brady as opposed to just having that tackle on the line, or would the extra step given to a speed rusher help get to the QB?

As to putting extra defensive backs into a 3-4, well, who knows? It probably couldn't have been worse than having our LB's trying to cover WR's and TE's.

So, I guess from all of this I have a couple of questions besides those I just mentioned. What personnel do we have that should or could be used in a 3-4? And while I'll agree that "they'd almost have to run the ball," wouldn't we be at a bit of a disadvantage if they did?


Well the anchor of any 3-4 is the nose tackle. I would imagine you could play Pat Williams at nose, K-Will, and D.Scott making up the front. It doesn't really matter who you put back there as long as it is another body. They could put Heath Farwell, Ray Edwards, DT.....it just makes another man. They lined up with 5 wide all night. They were saying ok I dare you to blitz. The number game doesn't match up in our favor to blitz safely.

If we went into a 3-4 it would be like us saying ok I dare you to run.

Del Rio
11-01-2006, 06:42 AM
On another note in Childress' press conference he in a nutshell said T-Will lost the ball, and he needs to make the grab. Weather that is worth anything to you or not is your decision I just find it interesting.

Q: Troy Williamson has had trouble with a couple of deep passes this year. What is your sense of what is going on there?

A: First of all, his eyes have been checked and he's 20-20. They have the visual acuity with your peripheral vision. He was checked at the combine with all that kind of thing. I think one of the toughest adjustments in sports is to adjust to a football that's thrown back over your head going full speed and then being able to locate down the field. Obviously, at the professional level you need to be able to make that adjustment and he's demonstrated some problems with that. I thought it was a very good throw and I would have liked to seen him adjust to the football obviously

Prophet
11-01-2006, 06:48 AM
"Del" wrote:


On another note in Childress' press conference he in a nutshell said T-Will lost the ball, and he needs to make the grab. Weather that is worth anything to you or not is your decision I just find it interesting.

Q: Troy Williamson has had trouble with a couple of deep passes this year. What is your sense of what is going on there?

A: First of all, his eyes have been checked and he's 20-20. They have the visual acuity with your peripheral vision. He was checked at the combine with all that kind of thing. I think one of the toughest adjustments in sports is to adjust to a football that's thrown back over your head going full speed and then being able to locate down the field. Obviously, at the professional level you need to be able to make that adjustment and he's demonstrated some problems with that. I thought it was a very good throw and I would have liked to seen him adjust to the football obviously


I just listened to that, yes he should catch that.
The ball was right there.
The commentaters even said during the game that the rooks sometimes get caught up trying to get the pass interference call when they should be trying to make the catch.
If T-Will would step up some of the offensive woes would go away.
At this point we're the bottom dwellers in red zone offense...anyth sign of life would help that stat.

JDogg926
11-01-2006, 07:58 AM
My take:

We got our @sses kicked.

We abandoned the run way too early.
The Patriots were clearly the better team.
Not having Marcus Robinson hurt us.
We got screwed on a few calls (Travis Taylor offensive pass interference, the Jermaine Wiggins catch and fumble, being ruled an incomplete pass), although I still don't think that would have been enough to overcome everything.

We need to work on our pass defense.

Luckily we've got an easy schedule ahead, we just can't get overconfident or look ahead, but if all goes well, we should be 8-3 heading into Chicago.
Let's hope they slip up and lose a game or two on the way there, so that we actually have a chance to get in position to at least have a chance at the division title.

Freya
11-01-2006, 08:08 AM
I think T-Will has 2 issues going on.

1) Hand/eye coordination is not great and needs work.

2) He is too worried about taking a hit.

And drawing up plays in the sand just might have worked Monday night, Del. :D

Del Rio
11-01-2006, 08:35 AM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:


"The" wrote:


"shockzilla" wrote:


Personally, I'm tired of seeing the 4-5 yard passes on 3rd and 8, 3rd and 9. Can anyone explain to me WHAT THE HELL is the point of that?


Well, I'll try. I think that when you're sitting at 3rd and long, it's pretty obvious to the defense that you're going to have to pass. So they're going to double up on your receivers to keep them on lockdown. So if no one is open, it's probably better to throw for short yardage and hope that your receiver/TE/running back can get some yard after the catch. Definitely beats an interception, but your chances of getting the first down still aren't very good. That's pretty much why it's best not to get in those situations in the first place.
Still, I wouldn't mind seeing the coaching staff put some better 3rd and long plays into their menu of plays seeing as how we seem to be in that situation all the freaking time. Maybe something like, oh I don't know, a five receiver set?


They cannot double up on every WR or TE.

I say we don;t have a checkdown.
Then we are forced to throw for a little more distance.


3rd and 8 is like your step cousin. It is do able, but better to avoid the situation alltogether.

Zeus
11-01-2006, 08:43 AM
"Del" wrote:


3rd and 8 is like your step cousin. It is do able, but better to avoid the situation alltogether.


LOL - line of the day.

=Z=

petrodemos
11-01-2006, 09:17 AM
not sure if this was mentioned by childress or others here, but

did the vikings abandon the run early because chester taylor suffered a concusion? i remember seeing him on the side line and i thought at first a patriot had poked him in the eye, but i think now this is when he got the concussion.

secondly, childress said they game planned for the spread offense. now, im not sure because i wasnt paying too much attention, but did the vikings have 3 linebackers in at all times? were they trying to cover 5 wide with cover 2? sure would explain a clear and free wide open WR over the middle being chased by a 250 pound linebacker trying to cover him.

oh well, the more i think about this game the more frustrated i get. Memo showed me hes a shifty back, and L. Marony showed me hes going to be a force to be reckened with if not already, never gives up on the play that man, i bet you hes happy going to a team of winning ways instead of running for 300 yards 4 tds in a losing effort, aka wisconsin vs U of M last year.

Del Rio
11-01-2006, 09:37 AM
"petrodemos" wrote:


not sure if this was mentioned by childress or others here, but

did the vikings abandon the run early because chester taylor suffered a concusion? i remember seeing him on the side line and i thought at first a patriot had poked him in the eye, but i think now this is when he got the concussion.

secondly, childress said they game planned for the spread offense. now, im not sure because i wasnt paying too much attention, but did the vikings have 3 linebackers in at all times? were they trying to cover 5 wide with cover 2? sure would explain a clear and free wide open WR over the middle being chased by a 250 pound linebacker trying to cover him.

oh well, the more i think about this game the more frustrated i get. Memo showed me hes a shifty back, and L. Marony showed me hes going to be a force to be reckened with if not already, never gives up on the play that man, i bet you hes happy going to a team of winning ways instead of running for 300 yards 4 tds in a losing effort, aka wisconsin vs U of M last year.


The impression I got was Childress' plan all along was to pass. He wanted to keep them on their toes and not get their cleats dug in. They knew he would run so he planned on passing.

We have had LB's trying to cover WR's all year. It blows me away. You will see EJ Henderson 20 yards down field trying to cover Lee Evans.

Zeus
11-01-2006, 09:59 AM
"Del" wrote:


We have had LB's trying to cover WR's all year. It blows me away. You will see EJ Henderson 20 yards down field trying to cover Lee Evans.


Don't get me started on that.
I kept looking down from my seat to see the Pats in 5-receiver sets with only Winfield, Smoot and Whitaker as corners, plus Sharper and Smith.
I was flabbergasted that Blue wasn't in there more - along with Ced Griffen.

=Z=

CCthebest
11-01-2006, 10:08 AM
Our defense is based upon pressure. Pressure the QB. The front 4 gave no pressure at all. We should hav switched to dime defense and had Greg Blue blitz every other play. Man can that guy hit and tackle. Tomlin should have been smart enough to switch things up at halftime.

Brady sat back in the pocket smiling, with all day to pass. He made our LB's and CB's look like they were in high school. I dont think playing the 3-4 D would have helped much, but at least have the nickle or dime every play, and let the william bros worry about the run. This game showed that Winfield really isnt that good of a cover back, he is much better against the run, and at the line. He and Smoot should have given much less of a cusion the second half.

Del Rio
11-01-2006, 10:13 AM
It is damn hard to get pressure with 4 guys going against 5 all night. You bring one man on a blitz you have 5 on 5 and a body for each defender. You bring two and you have an open wr and not just "open" but WIDE OPEN.

After watching the good old Tivo I was surprised at how much bump and run we played. There was a lot less cushion then there usually is. It didn't make an ounce of difference though.

whackthepack
11-01-2006, 10:23 AM
Dwight Smith can also play corner (he has before), so when we go to a nickle package why not slide him to a corner and bring Blue in as the second safety instead of having Whitaker being the 3rd corner?

And we have not used a dime package, instead we have a LB drop back and try to cover a receiver which has not worked very well!
Why not do the same and slide Smith and bring in Blue and Griffin and take out the LB instead of having them try and cover a receiver.

With Blue, Smith, Sharper all on the field you could run some blitzes that would surprise some team, you would have to go to a man on man coverage on a 5 receiver set and it is risky, but they could create some chaos that the other team might not expect.

Del Rio
11-01-2006, 10:27 AM
"whackthepack" wrote:


Dwight Smith can also play corner (he has before), so when we go to a nickle package why not slide him to a corner and bring Blue in as the second safety instead of having Whitaker being the 3rd corner?

And we have not used a dime package, instead we have a LB drop back and try to cover a receiver which has not worked very well!
Why not do the same and slide Smith and bring in Blue and Griffin and take out the LB instead of having them try and cover a receiver.

With Blue, Smith, Sharper all on the field you could run some blitzes that would surprise some team, you would have to go to a man on man coverage on a 5 receiver set and it is risky, but they could create some chaos that the other team might not expect.


Those are some solid ideas. I am sure Tomlin is looking at that or something even better. This defense has been the heart of the team so for it to get knocked around that bad must make everyone want to do that much better.

petrodemos
11-01-2006, 10:40 AM
uh oh, do i sense a 3 safety D?
hmmm i do believe i had mentioned this before Tank Williams got injured.

whackthepack
11-01-2006, 11:05 AM
"petrodemos" wrote:


uh oh, do i sense a 3 safety D?
hmmm i do believe i had mentioned this before Tank Williams got injured.



I don't know if you have noticed but Greg Blue is a safety and has played pretty damnn well this season.

V-Unit
11-01-2006, 05:53 PM
I give Dwight Smith one more game to prove he is an upgrade over Chavous. He is solid but has no knack for the big play. Thank goodness for Sharper.

ultravikingfan
11-01-2006, 07:58 PM
"V-Unit" wrote:


I give Dwight Smith one more game to prove he is an upgrade over Chavous. He is solid but has no knack for the big play. Thank goodness for Sharper.


He has streaks of brilliance, but I am not sold yet.

snowinapril
11-01-2006, 08:02 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:


"V-Unit" wrote:


I give Dwight Smith one more game to prove he is an upgrade over Chavous. He is solid but has no knack for the big play. Thank goodness for Sharper.


He has streaks of brilliance, but I am not sold yet.


I would have to watch the replay to get a honest assessment, but everytime I noticed a player getting toasted, it was either Whitaker or Smith.
Granted, all of our DBs did a good job tackling after the catch, chasing people down from behind.

singersp
11-01-2006, 08:14 PM
"snowinapril" wrote:


"ultravikingfan" wrote:


"V-Unit" wrote:


I give Dwight Smith one more game to prove he is an upgrade over Chavous. He is solid but has no knack for the big play. Thank goodness for Sharper.


He has streaks of brilliance, but I am not sold yet.


I would have to watch the replay to get a honest assessment, but everytime I noticed a player getting toasted, it was either Whitaker or Smith.
Granted, all of our DBs did a good job tackling after the catch, chasing people down from behind.



That was what I saw also, with the exception of Winfield not making the play on the TD catch.

I was watching for plays, Smoot in peticular, to guess at what specific time someone close to their PC would start yet another Smoot bashing thread on PP.O.

Except, the number on the back of the jersey that I saw on a lot of bad plays, belonged to Dwight Smith.

VKG4LFE
11-01-2006, 08:17 PM
"Del" wrote:


Well I think it is safe to say that was a horrible game. I just wanted to touch on a few things some of which may have been touched upon in other threads. Going into this game many fans knew that we would have our hands full, in fact before the season even started I would be surprised if many fans caulked this game up to anything other then a loss. The reason we had hope we could win was because so far this season the team has shown us talent that I think many of us never thought they had.


If there were three things in this game that killed us I would have to say they were:

1) Coaching
2) Defense
3) QB/WR play


Coaching was what I was afraid it would be. You have a proven coach, three time super bowl winner matching wits with a rookie head coach and a rookie coaching staff and it showed big time. They go to five wide and start throwing the ball around. It is ballsy, it is confident, and it says “Hey you can’t stop us.” Most importantly however is it makes Brad Childress make a decision. Does he stick to his plan or does he try to match tit for tat? Well 5 runs in the first half tells us he made the WRONG decision. Down by 17 and the run is abandoned. Our bread and butter is abandoned and we are instantly in a shoot out, one that we cannot win. Poor coaching. HOWEVER he is young and he is learning. This is not a bag on Brad Childress thread, just an honest observation.


Defense was horrid. I have been saying all season the zone is soft. Pass protection is soft and it was that and more. This is not a top ten defense I am sorry. In my honest opinion this defense is great at stuffing the run and horrible at stopping the pass. Granted this game was an exaggeration of that being that we went against Tom Brady, but I have been seeing this all season. Big open fields to roam. The line sucked it up. They went 5 wide all night long so there is really no option for a strong blitz. You have to make the line beat you, and they failed.

Brad Johnson played the worst game I have ever seen him play. Where is that fire that was there against the Redskins? We know this guy is not a gunner; he is not a throw the ball 60 yards down the field kind of guy. What he is supposed to be is a guy that makes the smart play and he wasn’t doing that. So take both of those away and you got nothing. I could not quit thinking about his contract. The guy is a starter and is getting paid jiggly butt-soup for wages. Does he care enough to win? If we are going to let him go at the end of the season why not go with young blood? I mean I just can’t help but wonder why this guy hasn’t been paid. The only conclusion I can think is he isn’t going to be here very long.



~ Some notables from the game

Bryant McKinnie once again shows his weakness. Fast ends getting around him and making him look silly.

The officiating was horrid. What good is instant replay when it doesn’t even get you the correct call on the field?

Troy Williamson once again drops a game changing pass. Sure there was some contact, but the ball hit his hand and I have to agree with Thiesman when he says he lost the ball in the lights. Perfectly thrown strike down the sideline and he drops it……again.

MM makes an awesome punt return.

Tony Richardson is a beast plain and simple

At halftime they did that stupid race deal with the big foam heads. When they were introducing the contestants the fans BOOED THE HELL out of IRVIN,KORNHEISER,and THEISMAN. It made my night. Then when they go back to Irvin he looks all butt hurt and that made it even better.

Finally the PATRIOTS are who we SAID THEY WERE!!!! Which is one hell of a football team. Sure the officiating was not that great, but they flat out beat our jiggly butt. They knocked us in the mouth on defense AND offense and we didn’t do a gol 'darnit thing about it. So cudo’s to them for being a well coached and very well disciplined. No false starts all night. That’s impressive.

We have work to do. We did not play up to our level and I am sure that the 49ers will feel some of that fire next weekend. In fact after a loss like this you have the opportunity to really see what your team is made of. There is absolutely no reason we should not win against the 49ers. NONE AT ALL, we should dominate them. If we come out flat then I would be afraid for our season and our morale and then I would actually consider mixing it up a bit weather it be at the QB position, WR, or whatever.




I'm not gonna lie, I am still depressed about that game. I figured we would lose, but I thought it would be another tough/close loss and I didn't think Brady would do what he did! The Pats look tough!

cajunvike
11-01-2006, 08:35 PM
Hey, if the REFS would have just called the OBVIOUS penalties when they happened and IGNORED the phantom ones that they did call, our offense would have scored at least a couple of TDs...which would have changed the complexion of the game altogether!
Faced with a 12-on-11 matchup on the field all night long, we never had a chance!

VKG4LFE
11-01-2006, 08:53 PM
Yeah I know. I was really pissed on the first INT that Johnson threw, Moore was being held. Put that ball at the two and we try to run it in four times to make it a 10-7 game. Also, that Wiggins catch, that was just horrible, flat out horrible!

Del Rio
11-02-2006, 06:24 AM
"cajunvike" wrote:


Hey, if the REFS would have just called the OBVIOUS penalties when they happened and IGNORED the phantom ones that they did call, our offense would have scored at least a couple of TDs...which would have changed the complexion of the game altogether!
Faced with a 12-on-11 matchup on the field all night long, we never had a chance!


I can't belive your still going on about that. I wonder what your response would be if the tables were reversed and we had won and the refs had screwed the Patsies. I am sure you would not be so welcoming of Patriots fans excuses.

Zeus
11-02-2006, 07:09 AM
"cajunvike" wrote:


Hey, if the REFS would have just called the OBVIOUS penalties when they happened and IGNORED the phantom ones that they did call, our offense would have scored at least a couple of TDs...which would have changed the complexion of the game altogether!
Faced with a 12-on-11 matchup on the field all night long, we never had a chance!


Move along....nothing to see here.

=Z=