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View Full Version : Coaching Still Lacking



dan3ski
08-21-2004, 12:15 AM
Is it starting again? I know it is the preseason but the coaching decisions are already questionable. my first question is why did the Vikings try to pass on 3rd and 1 on thier own 30 yd line when the running attack was doing ok? Then in the 3rd quarter why did Tice not make the Falcons kick again? It would have moved the ball back five yards and might have set up a better return taking some of the wind out of Atlanta's sails. I have already said the special teams need work. Then there is the inconsistancy of Ellings kick-offs, perhaps Tice needs a second PK for kick-offs so the coverage team can get down field. Then there appears to be alot of penalities and again as last year I am screaming that the coaching is lacking.

rjkvikings
08-21-2004, 12:21 AM
Man, that pass on 3rd and 1 was just stupid. There were some other problems too. Our special teams was doing horrible!

Webby
08-21-2004, 12:21 AM
Without delving, because its late, into it deeper....I will just say that I don't agree it is completely lacking. Tice is a good coach who has taken a team in the throes of mismanagement and terrible accountability from Green's era and turned us into very credible contenders.

In 2 seasons. That's a turnaround we can be proud of, especially when he is a rookie coach. He will get better every game, every season. Put your faith in a hard-nosed coach. He will do the right things, and already has been.

sdvikefan
08-21-2004, 01:04 AM
I am willing to give Tice the benefit of the doubt. The main reason is that coaches these days are under a lot more pressure than they used to be to create a winning team sometimes with very limited resources and less dependable backups. The free agency and salary cap may be good for fans and players, but not as good for coaches unless they learn some new management skills.

Anyway I didn't see the game so I can't comment on that, but I think we need to lay off Tice because he really has taken this team a long ways. I have my issues with him, especially his apparent lack of discipline with the team and some of his play calling. But in two years he has taken the Vikings from being one of the worst teams in the league to being serious playoff contenders. How many coaches have done that? John Fox and Bill Parcells. Not many others, that's for sure.

tdawg0002
08-21-2004, 02:27 AM
"sdvikefan" wrote:

I am willing to give Tice the benefit of the doubt. The main reason is that coaches these days are under a lot more pressure than they used to be to create a winning team sometimes with very limited resources and less dependable backups. The free agency and salary cap may be good for fans and players, but not as good for coaches unless they learn some new management skills.

Anyway I didn't see the game so I can't comment on that, but I think we need to lay off Tice because he really has taken this team a long ways. I have my issues with him, especially his apparent lack of discipline with the team and some of his play calling. But in two years he has taken the Vikings from being one of the worst teams in the league to being serious playoff contenders. How many coaches have done that? John Fox and Bill Parcells. Not many others, that's for sure.

His apparent lack of discipline with the team? Can I ask you what you are referring to? In my opinion, lack of discipline is what Denny Green had with this team. Mike Tice has brought discipline back into this system. I always have been and continue to be a huge fan of Tice. We all make bad decisions from time to time and the 3rd-and-1 call was one of them. If we had had our starters in the whole game, it would've been pretty lopsided.

hawaiianvike21
08-21-2004, 06:43 AM
I think hes trying out some of his plays maybe???? Hey its only preseason, what have you got to lose excpept your star player right??? Im sure he was trying to do something he thought would work and fool the d.

Isint this is what preseason is for, try everything you dont know too much about and make your errors here and not during the regular season? Doesnt bother me unless he keeps it up during the regular season.

sdvikefan
08-21-2004, 08:37 AM
"tdawg0002" wrote:

Mike Tice has brought discipline back into this system.

Not quite. With all the problems we have had with the younger players on the team I think there are still some discipline issues. You're right about Green. But I would like to see Tice crack down more when this kind of crap goes on like DUI's, drug use, fights, etc. If you look at the great coaches in the league, they don't tolerate that kind of stuff.

muchluv4smoot
08-21-2004, 09:47 AM
"sdvikefan" wrote:

"tdawg0002" wrote:

Mike Tice has brought discipline back into this system.

Not quite. With all the problems we have had with the younger players on the team I think there are still some discipline issues. You're right about Green. But I would like to see Tice crack down more when this kind of crap goes on like DUI's, drug use, fights, etc. If you look at the great coaches in the league, they don't tolerate that kind of stuff.


Agreed 100%

tlk23
08-21-2004, 11:56 AM
Many of the penalties happened in the 2nd half when the third string was in there. The Vikings passed on 3rd and 1 because it is the pre season. In the pre season you try different thing that you wouldn't neccesarily try in the regular season. Does anyone think that they would run a 50 yard pass for Howry? When the games start to count, they will make good decision when going for first downs. Just look at what the 1st string offense did. If they played the whole game against the Falcons 1st string, the Vikings would have won by at least 30 points.

dan3ski
08-21-2004, 09:35 PM
I must disagree with you tlk23 Mike Tice has stated he wants to win the preseason games to set up the season.

tlk23
08-21-2004, 09:51 PM
If he wants to win the games that badly, then he would leave the starters in the whole game. I don't know one coach in the NFL that wants his team to look bad and lose in the pre season. Everybody want to win pre season game, but the facts is that they don't matter at all.

DUMONUCHEEZHED
08-21-2004, 09:59 PM
I always thought the pre season was to give the first string players a little bit of time on the field and the rest of the game to try to evaluate the 2nd. and 3rd. strings, and also to give them some game time.

tlk23
08-21-2004, 10:03 PM
DUMONUCHEEZHED just said it all. If the coaching still doesn't please you during the season, then you can complain about it.

dan3ski
08-22-2004, 03:50 PM
It used to be the first game of preseason the starters played the firdt quarter, in the second game they played the first half and so on. But the last preseason game was as good as a regular game as the starters played all the way. These days you never know what agenda the coach is doing.

tdawg0002
08-22-2004, 04:19 PM
Any more I think its the 3rd preseason game that the starters get the most time. The 4th game is too close to the regular season and gives very little time to recuperate from the minor injuries that players often occur. Therefore, most coaches, as I said in the first sentence, have gone to making the 3rd game the big showing of their starters in the preseason. As DUMONUCHEEZHED stated, the preseason is mainly a time to give the starters a few plays together, but the main objective is to evaluate the 2nd and 3rd stringers for talent. It is their one chance to shine.

vikesfan
08-22-2004, 04:46 PM
"Then there is the inconsistancy of Ellings kick-offs, perhaps Tice needs a second PK for kick-offs so the coverage team can get down field."


I'm glad someone brought this up. I have been wondering why Bennett, our punter, isn't kicking off. I know he's up there in age, but he's got a strong leg. I remember when Burger kicked off for Anderson a few years ago, I don't know why they haven't tried that in preseason. Although I will admit, I did think that besides Ellings first kick off (which was horrible) the rest seemed to get better as the game went on. He did have that one kick when the Falcon returner had to jump at the goal line to catch it.

tdawg0002
08-22-2004, 04:50 PM
As long as we brought up special teams, I'm trying to figure out why the Vikes are so incredibly terrible at returning kicks. We haven't returned a kickoff or punt for a TD since 1999 or something like that. Special teams have by far proven to be our weakest link for the upcoming season. I just hope that we can do something to upright the sinking ship.

ndakvikefan
08-22-2004, 09:39 PM
It is PRE-SEASON the coaches don't care who wins or loses. So what they threw on 3rd and 1 in preseason, maybe that is a play they wanted to try in a 3rd and 1 situation, to maybe learn something about his team. Now is the time you try things like that. You want to see what happens in the preseason when you pull out all stops to win a game? Look at the San Diego coaching staff calling a fake FG ( and a good one at that). Now everyone in the league can sit and watch film of that play and make it is it will never work again, that is stupid coaching, not trying and pass play on 3rd and 1. I dont think Tice cared one bit if they got the first down or not, he just wanted to see his team execute and if certain plays work in certain situations.

Webby
08-22-2004, 11:08 PM
well said.

"ndakvikefan" wrote:

It is PRE-SEASON the coaches don't care who wins or loses. So what they threw on 3rd and 1 in preseason, maybe that is a play they wanted to try in a 3rd and 1 situation, to maybe learn something about his team. Now is the time you try things like that. You want to see what happens in the preseason when you pull out all stops to win a game? Look at the San Diego coaching staff calling a fake FG ( and a good one at that). Now everyone in the league can sit and watch film of that play and make it is it will never work again, that is stupid coaching, not trying and pass play on 3rd and 1. I dont think Tice cared one bit if they got the first down or not, he just wanted to see his team execute and if certain plays work in certain situations.

muchluv4smoot
08-23-2004, 06:42 PM
"webmaster" wrote:

well said.

"ndakvikefan" wrote:

It is PRE-SEASON the coaches don't care who wins or loses. So what they threw on 3rd and 1 in preseason, maybe that is a play they wanted to try in a 3rd and 1 situation, to maybe learn something about his team. Now is the time you try things like that. You want to see what happens in the preseason when you pull out all stops to win a game? Look at the San Diego coaching staff calling a fake FG ( and a good one at that). Now everyone in the league can sit and watch film of that play and make it is it will never work again, that is stupid coaching, not trying and pass play on 3rd and 1. I dont think Tice cared one bit if they got the first down or not, he just wanted to see his team execute and if certain plays work in certain situations.




Actually I believe that Tice said one of the teams goals in preseason, was to be undefeated. So it sounds like he does want to win the games. I don't think he ran the play not caring if he got the 1st down. He ran it to get the first down, but it was a bad play and a bad play call, period. Every coach makes bad calls, but tice has done it too often over the last 2 years. He has continued to some degree this preseason. Yes I agree, that he only has 2 years of experience, and he is still learning, but how long do you guys want to wait for a coach to keep learning before he gets it? We have a great team this year, what if his learning and screwing up, costs us a playoff game this year? Fact is, now that we have a good team, we need the coach to do his part and not mess up, or the coach will cost us a chance at the super bowl.

Hey, I didn't mind having a rookie coach, in the last 2 years, since we were clearly rebuilding anyways. Now that we have rebuilt and have a great team, Tice needs to be a good coach no matter how many years he has coached. I believe, as well as many vikes fans, that if we get to the playoffs and are in a close game, that tice could easily make a dumb move that looses us the game. This is what worries me about him. He has done an excellent job of rebuilding the team and getting a ton of talented guys here, but when it comes to coaching at game time, I just don't see a coach who gets it. God, I hope he proves me wrong this year, because we clearly have the talent to go far, that talent just needs to be coached correctly.

Webby
08-23-2004, 06:44 PM
Dumb moves? Versus Denny's genius moves?

(much talent, boneheaded decisions for a veteran coach?)

muchluv4smoot
08-23-2004, 06:49 PM
"webmaster" wrote:

Dumb moves? Versus Denny's genius moves?

(much talent, boneheaded decisions for a veteran coach?)


Hey, I never praised denny or compared the two guys for that matter. Denny made dumb moves and he was let go, Tice has done the same for 2 years now and is still here. Why? Because he is still learning? That learning could very easily cost us a super bowl. Denny's bad coaching cost us one in 1998, so I would hate to see Tice do the same for us this year.

Webby
08-23-2004, 06:58 PM
Denny's team dynamics cost us more than Tice could. Denny was not let go because of a playoff decision, it was years of bad decisions.

Your statement is that you claim a head coach with 10 years experience's mistakes are okay, but your hypothetical mistake Tice may or may not make in the future should thus determine the coaching of the Vikings?

muchluv4smoot
08-23-2004, 07:06 PM
"webmaster" wrote:

Denny's team dynamics cost us more than Tice could. Denny was not let go because of a playoff decision, it was years of bad decisions.

Your statement is that you claim a head coach with 10 years experience's mistakes are okay, but your hypothetical mistake Tice may or may not make in the future should thus determine the coaching of the Vikings?


When did I say what denny did was OK?? I don't care how many years you have been coaching, mistakes are mistakes and they cost teams wins. Denny's did as have Tice's. Denny was fired and Tice hasn't been. Why? Because he is inexperienced? That should not at all matter, if you want to win. Now that we have a team with the talent to win a super bowl, we will have to worry about Tice messing up and costing us a chance at the super bowl.

muchluv4smoot
08-23-2004, 07:15 PM
Again I ask, how long are we willing to wait for Tice to learn how to coach? It is fine when we are rebuilding, but that is done and we have a great team now. I am not saying Tice will cost us games this year or a shot at the super bowl, just saying I, and many vikes fans, worry about him doing just that, after seeing his mistakes of that last few years. We don't need a coach costing us games this year, so hopefully he has learned. It does sound like he learned from his losses to the crappy teams last year. He has said that he isn't gonna go to a conservative offense against the crappy teams, like he did last year. He said he is gonna stick with the attacking style of offense he used against the better teams. That sounds good, hope he actually does it.

SKOL
08-23-2004, 07:37 PM
A 50 yard pass on third and one sounds pretty aggressive to me. If the only questionable call for an entire game is an aggressive one it's hard to judge the coach harshly. I don't have it on tape to confirm this, but I think I remember it being a catchable ball (you can correct me if I'm wrong). Maybe Tice learned that Howry can't be counted on in the clutch (3rd and one)..., and since he'll probably be aced out of the return team by M. Moore, that play could have cost Howry his spot on the roster.

muchluv4smoot
08-23-2004, 08:08 PM
"SKOL" wrote:

A 50 yard pass on third and one sounds pretty aggressive to me. If the only questionable call for an entire game is an aggressive one it's hard to judge the coach harshly. I don't have it on tape to confirm this, but I think I remember it being a catchable ball (you can correct me if I'm wrong). Maybe Tice learned that Howry can't be counted on in the clutch (3rd and one)..., and since he'll probably be aced out of the return team by M. Moore, that play could have cost Howry his spot on the roster.



I am not judging Tice too much on preseason, more so on his last 2 years of coaching. Again maybe he has learned and will make better descions, for the teams sake I hope so, but I am still gona be worried WHEN we are in the playoffs in a close game.

The ball was a little over thrown on the play, but just barely. I never liked using short guys like howry, for deep passes like that one.

I was wondering when Tice was gonna let someone else return punts. Howry has done nothing as a punt returner. He just has no explosiveness. I think Mewelde could be a much more dangerous punt and kick returner than howry. I also didn't like having onterrio smith at kick returner in the last game. Maybe try someone like hoag(i think he did get one return and do pretty good). We need to shake it up on the return game, because it has been nothing for years now.

SKOL
08-23-2004, 08:30 PM
Who was the guy that went backwards 10-15 yards on a punt return against the Falcons? I can't remember (I'm going to have to start taping these games so I can talk about them intelligently).

Back to the questionable offensive calls by coaches, you probably haven't been around long enough to remember Bob Schnelker. An offensive coordinator sent over by the Packers to torcher Vikes fans. Statistically his offenses were always good, but his calls on 3rd and 10 were atrocious... he ran the ball so regularly on 3rd and 10 that it never fooled the other team. My acceptance of Tice's new found aggressiveness probably comes from knowing how much worse the play calling could be.

muchluv4smoot
08-23-2004, 08:47 PM
"SKOL" wrote:

Who was the guy that went backwards 10-15 yards on a punt return against the Falcons? I can't remember (I'm going to have to start taping these games so I can talk about them intelligently).

Back to the questionable offensive calls by coaches, you probably haven't been around long enough to remember Bob Schnelker. An offensive coordinator sent over by the Packers to torcher Vikes fans. Statistically his offenses were always good, but his calls on 3rd and 10 were atrocious... he ran the ball so regularly on 3rd and 10 that it never fooled the other team. My acceptance of Tice's new found aggressiveness probably comes from knowing how much worse the play calling could be.



That was our 5th or 6th CB, Austin. The guy who was being picked on, and was beat on every damn passing play.

DiehardVikesFan
08-23-2004, 09:17 PM
Doesn't Linnehan do the playcalling?

casper
08-24-2004, 02:44 AM
"DiehardVikesFan" wrote:

Doesn't Linnehan do the playcalling?

Thats what I thought too I also thought that TICE has only been withthe team for what this is his third year :?: sorry, first year got his feet on the ground, second year close to the playoff, third year????must have been gone or is this his third year when he coaches the team to the championship??

help me here i am Lost on a little island somewhere in the middle of the Med... 8)