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sdvikefan
07-23-2004, 03:19 PM
I have heard some people (not Viking fans of course) say that Kleinsasser is not really a good receiving TE, that he's a really good blocker but that's it. Well I found something interesting about that...Kleinsasser already has the 4th highest total receptions by a TE in Viking team history. He needs 43 more and he will pass Joe Senser for the number 3 spot. Steve Jordan is the top receiving TE in team history with 498 total catches...no one else comes close. Of course the Vikings have used their tight ends differently than most teams over the years but it's still a pretty good accomplishment since he's been playing 5 seasons and was used quite a bit as an H-back.

I know we were all very relieved when Kleinsasser was resigned this year. I think we'll be even happier once the season starts.

whackthepack
07-23-2004, 03:54 PM
If he can stay healthy and not drop passes (kleinsdropper).
He also needs to do more after he catches the ball, a few extra yards never hurt.

purplepat
07-23-2004, 04:37 PM
As much as I like JK, that's still not saying much. His career totals add up to maybe two good seasons by a receiving TE.

What this probably means is that the Vikings have not had any TE play for them for more than a couple of seasons. Joe Senser was great, but had his career cut very short because of injury. Stu Voigt was a great Vikings TE, but he played in the 70s when teams passed less, and even then not much to the TE. Jordan, of course, was around for years and that's how he got to nearly 500 catches.

Doesn't mean JK isn't a great TE, but no one is going to mention him in the same breath as Tony Gonzalez, or Todd Heap, or (god forbid) Jeremy Shockey in terms of being a dangerous threat as a receiver...at least not yet.

bigdogbovy
07-23-2004, 05:01 PM
OK, he's not the receiver that Gonzalez or Shockey is, but to say that he's not as good as heap? 9 out of 10 NFL coaches would take The sauce in a minute over heap. equal in pass catching and better in every other aspect of the game.

josdin00
07-23-2004, 05:11 PM
"bigdogbovy" wrote:

OK, he's not the receiver that Gonzalez or Shockey is, but to say that he's not as good as heap? 9 out of 10 NFL coaches would take The sauce in a minute over heap. equal in pass catching and better in every other aspect of the game.

I'm not sure you're actually going to find 28 NFL coaches that believe that Kleinsasser is as good of a reciever as Heap. From what I've seen of Heap, he looks better than Shockey as a reciever, and I just don't think that Kleinsasser is there yet.

magicci
07-23-2004, 05:38 PM
this is good for us because other teams will be underestimating him remember how he got that touchdown against the chiefs last year, nobody was even looking in his direction. He is also good at breaking tackles, from what i see it's a mission to take him down

muchluv4smoot
07-23-2004, 07:04 PM
"bigdogbovy" wrote:

OK, he's not the receiver that Gonzalez or Shockey is, but to say that he's not as good as heap? 9 out of 10 NFL coaches would take The sauce in a minute over heap. equal in pass catching and better in every other aspect of the game.



Wow are you off here! I have actually heard quiet a few coaches say they think heap could be the best TE in the league. I bet the majority of coaches would put heap, shockey, gonzo, and crumpler as their top 4 TE's, in some order. Jimmy may be a good TE, I won't dispute that, but not in the category of heap and gonzo. Jimmy is not equal in pass catching to heap. Jimmy can't be a downfield threat like heap is. Jimmy caught most of his passes last year, as dump off passes over the middle. They were like 5 yard passes that he ran for another ten, because the middle of the field was so open, thanks to moss drawing all the defenders to the outside of the field. man I feel like the sienfeld guy, "don't touch jimmy" "Jimmy likes elaine".

JK is the best blocking TE in the game without a doubt, and this can be underrated, but he just doesn't have the receiving skills to be mentioned in the gonzo and heap category. Again I say, catching 5 yard dumpoff passes doesn't make him a good receiver. Watch how many times gonzo and heap catch 5 yard dumpoff passes. And JK didn't only catch those passes because our offense didn't call for him to run deeper routes. He didn't run them because he isn't good at it. Remember why Tice said we signed wiggins this offseason? To be the receiving TE we have had missing in our offense, since chamberlain's pro bowl year. If JK was so good at catching, he would be used in the role that wiggins will play this year and we wouldn't have needed to sign wiggins. Again, these were Tice's words and not mine.

I think a lot of people need to watch the ravens play and see how well heap can block. Everyone thinks since he catches so many balls, that he can't block, but that ain't true.

Find any football magizine out there, or website, that ranks players at each position, and I bet there is not a one that has jimmy ahead of heap.

Again, I am not bashing Jimmy or saying he sucks. I think he is probably the 5th best TE in the league, which is pretty damn good if you ask me.

bigdogbovy
07-23-2004, 07:28 PM
Sorry not a Heap believer. nor crumpler for that matter. Jimmy gets overlooked on his rec skills because he is so good at blcking and that's how the vikes use him. I have yet to see Jimmy drop a well thrown ball, and he pulls in quite a few poorly thrown ones as well. Jimmy's numbers stay where they are because of how he fits in. The Ravens, KC and NY need thier TE to catch downfield. The vikes have no need for thier TE to go down field or to catch tons of passes. Also we signed wiggins as a Recieving TE because tice want's to use Jimmy as a blocker and runner does this mean he can't catch? no way. Just not his role. Randy Moss could be a hell of a kick returner, but that's not his role. Jimmy is a hell of a reciever but that's not his role.

muchluv4smoot
07-23-2004, 07:54 PM
"bigdogbovy" wrote:

Sorry not a Heap believer. nor crumpler for that matter. Jimmy gets overlooked on his rec skills because he is so good at blcking and that's how the vikes use him. I have yet to see Jimmy drop a well thrown ball, and he pulls in quite a few poorly thrown ones as well. Jimmy's numbers stay where they are because of how he fits in. The Ravens, KC and NY need thier TE to catch downfield. The vikes have no need for thier TE to go down field or to catch tons of passes. Also we signed wiggins as a Recieving TE because tice want's to use Jimmy as a blocker and runner does this mean he can't catch? no way. Just not his role. Randy Moss could be a hell of a kick returner, but that's not his role. Jimmy is a hell of a reciever but that's not his role.



OK, why did you say the vikes offense doesn't have a need for a TE to go downfield like KC and others, then try and explain why we signed wiggins to do exactly that in our offense this year? Fact is we do need TE's to go downfield in our offense, but jimmy isn't good at it, thus he didn't do it last year. Wiggins signing was for this spot that we weren't able to use in our offense last year. Again Tice's words not mine. Our offense does need a TE to go downfield and thus the signing of wiggins.

If you were on this site during last season, not sure if you were, you would have seen a ton of posts complaining that daunte was dumping the ball off to his RB(moe) and TE(jimmy) way too much and that he needed to go downfield to his WR's(bates, cambell, and burleson). The reason why he had to dump the ball off all the time, was because we had no TE to threaten the seams. The DB's were playing our WR's on the outside of the field. This is also why we would get 15-20 yards on five yard dumpoff passes. We needed a TE to take this role, instead of just dumping the ball off all the time, and this is what wiggins was signed for, because jimmy wasn't good at that role. Although I don't think wiggins is all that good at being this downfield TE, our coaches do.

Also, I am not saying jimmy can't catch the bal well or has bad hands, but he isn't a good receiving TE. Good for dumpoff passes, but not running routes like the heaps, shockeys, and gonzos. This is why I, and many others, put him down around 5th best TE.

Is it just me or have we had this arguement already bigdog?

ndakvikefan
07-23-2004, 08:39 PM
Well muchluv I actually agree with you for the most part. We do need a TE to split the seams. You are absolutely right. But I do dissagree with you about jimmy catching the ball. He does have very good hands, I watched him play in college. Here is the problem with his pass catching: The man is 6-3 280lbs with huge stubby guns on him. You won't see many men that size fully extending making finger tip catches. A man that size need to have the ball thrown pretty much in his hands, and I bet if you were able to go back and look at the passes he drops it is because he had to extend for them. This is not an excuse, just a reason. Yes alot of TE's would make those catches but most TE's are not his size. This is the reason he is not a downfield threat, he has the speed but because of his size he is not the most elegant reciever.
As for him being as good as Heap, as a all around TE he is just as good but as a recieving TE, NO but at the same time all Heap or Gonzales have over Jimmy is that they are better recievers.
I found a rating system for every position on a website, and the league average for TE's was 198 and Kleinsasser was a 488 and the league's best ws a 916. I don't know what the criteria for this rating system was it just showed the numbers. Another thing about Heap and Gonzales, is taht they are not the usual TE's they are more like big WR's and they are thier teams prime recievers, so who would I rather have on my team, Todd Heap or Tony Gonzales who can't block and would not get many catches with the vikes corps of recievers or Jimmy who can bail out Duante as a safety valve and play the role of the second Tackle? I would take Jimmy for the vikes he fits the role.

muchluv4smoot
07-23-2004, 09:07 PM
"ndakvikefan" wrote:

Well muchluv I actually agree with you for the most part. We do need a TE to split the seams. You are absolutely right. But I do dissagree with you about jimmy catching the ball. He does have very good hands, I watched him play in college. Here is the problem with his pass catching: The man is 6-3 280lbs with huge stubby guns on him. You won't see many men that size fully extending making finger tip catches. A man that size need to have the ball thrown pretty much in his hands, and I bet if you were able to go back and look at the passes he drops it is because he had to extend for them. This is not an excuse, just a reason. Yes alot of TE's would make those catches but most TE's are not his size. This is the reason he is not a downfield threat, he has the speed but because of his size he is not the most elegant reciever.
As for him being as good as Heap, as a all around TE he is just as good but as a recieving TE, NO but at the same time all Heap or Gonzales have over Jimmy is that they are better recievers.
I found a rating system for every position on a website, and the league average for TE's was 198 and Kleinsasser was a 488 and the league's best ws a 916. I don't know what the criteria for this rating system was it just showed the numbers. Another thing about Heap and Gonzales, is taht they are not the usual TE's they are more like big WR's and they are thier teams prime recievers, so who would I rather have on my team, Todd Heap or Tony Gonzales who can't block and would not get many catches with the vikes corps of recievers or Jimmy who can bail out Duante as a safety valve and play the role of the second Tackle? I would take Jimmy for the vikes he fits the role.



Hey, are you from grand forks or the area?

Again I say this: I am not saying jimmy can't catch the ball or that he has bad hands. And I also saw jimmy play in college. I actaully go to UND right now and saw everyone of his games. He is not the same guy now that he was then also. He is bigger now and like you said he can't extend to catch the ball.

I don't think you are considering how well heap and gonzo block. It is their good blocking that makes every expert say that they are the top Te's in the game. They don't just say this because the catch a lot of passes. All around I would still put gonzo and heap ahead of jimmy. They are heads and shoulders ahead of him at receiving and they are also good blockers. I absolutely would take a Gonzo or heap over jimmy for the vikes. If they were on our team, they would catch a ton of balls, with how open moss makes the middle of the field. If they were covered, then moss would have a record breaking year. You guys talk about our offense not using or needing a gonzo type of TE, but that is so wrong. We havent had one, so we haven't use the TE that way. Wiggins will be used that way this season, in the same offense we ran last year. Again, there is a reason why we signed wiggins to be that TE. Yes, we had the #1 offense last year, but it would be even better if we did have that TE to go down the seams. I hope wiggins is that guy, even though I don't see it happening.

In that rating system you found, what were gonzo, heap and other Te's rated?

purplepat
07-23-2004, 10:22 PM
Actually, I bet JK could be a pretty good receiving threat down the seams, over the middle, etc. if Daunte could hit him in stride. The fact is (I think) that the Vikings are looking to go downfield more to the WRs, and actually need JK to block at the line, or at least chip, before going out. In most cases last year, he was a safety valve for Culp when everyone was covered or the pressure was getting hot. If he was actually the #1 or #2 option 15 yards downfield, I bet he could be hot stuff. But Culp would have to hit him right; if JK has to stop his momentum to zero or near zero, he will probably get very little after the catch.

muchluv4smoot
07-23-2004, 10:38 PM
"purplepat" wrote:

Actually, I bet JK could be a pretty good receiving threat down the seams, over the middle, etc. if Daunte could hit him in stride. The fact is (I think) that the Vikings are looking to go downfield more to the WRs, and actually need JK to block at the line, or at least chip, before going out. In most cases last year, he was a safety valve for Culp when everyone was covered or the pressure was getting hot. If he was actually the #1 or #2 option 15 yards downfield, I bet he could be hot stuff. But Culp would have to hit him right; if JK has to stop his momentum to zero or near zero, he will probably get very little after the catch.



Sorry I just don't see it, but thats just my opinion. I know I keep saying this but if JK could be a good downfield Te, then why did he never ever do it last year? And why did Tice say we needed to get wiggins to play that role? Yes, it helps to have jimmy in there blocking, but eventually he went out for passes, but never past the 5 or 10 yard range. It just seems to me that tice didn't believe that jimmy could be that kind of TE and that is why he brought in wiggins and also why he never tried to use jimmy in that way. This is my opinion. I beleive we didn't use jimmy in that role, because he isn't good at it. He is good at short yard plays but not stretching the field. One thing I do love about him, is that he can stay in the pass block, and take the other teams DE one-on-one.

TEXPACK
07-23-2004, 11:12 PM
JK reminds me a lot of William Henderson. He catches the ball o.k. but, then falls down quickly or is easily knocked off his feet.

I guess there's always room for a guy like that on your team.

Henderson's much better looking though. Is there an uglier player in the NFL than Jimmy K.?

superior230bartime
07-23-2004, 11:13 PM
The same people arguing this are also the same people that were offended when JK was not listed in the top 50 players in the NFL. I mean c'mon where in the hell is this so called intelligent converstaion you guys claim to have around here. I said Kleinsasser was not a top 3 tight end in the league(which he is nowehere close to by the way) and I got ripped on by multiple people on this board.

superior230bartime
07-23-2004, 11:14 PM
"TEXPACK" wrote:

JK reminds me a lot of William Henderson. He catches the ball o.k. but, then falls down quickly or is easily knocked off his feet.

I guess there's always room for a guy like that on your team.

Henderson's much better looking though. Is there an uglier player in the NFL than Jimmy K.?

Possibly Chris Hovan

magicci
07-23-2004, 11:37 PM
i went to the vikis & sd game last year and JK made a beautiful one handed catch over the middle it was like the ball just slipped in

enlvikeman
07-24-2004, 12:07 AM
I'll say this...without Jimmy K we would have to revamp our entire offensive scheme. That's straight frim Linehan's mouth. That's how important he is to the Vikings offense.

magicci
07-24-2004, 12:08 AM
"magicci" wrote:

i went to the vikis & sd game last year and JK made a beautiful one handed catch over the middle it was like the ball just slipped in


vikes not vikis it's late in the night

sdvikefan
07-24-2004, 01:16 AM
Kleinsasser is not the downfield receiving threat that Heap, Gonzalez and Shockey are. That's not at all what I was saying. But it just surprised me how many receptions he does have and his role in our offense is a lot bigger than some people think. At the end of the season some people were saying they didn't think it would really hurt us if Kleinsasser left the team. But it would have.

Most teams look for their TEs to be built like receivers because that's how they use them. The Vikings aren't one of those teams. Tice likes to run the football over the defense so the TE is asked to block for the runner more than advance the football. When we do go to the passing game, Tice likes to spread the defense and have receivers that can go deep. In this type of passing game you need players who can pass protect longer than 2 seconds, which you don't need in the WCO because the QB dumps the ball immediately. But there are times when Kleinsasser is used for those critical short yardage gains. He gives us that option and that's why I don't think the Vikings really need another type of TE. Defenses don't really expect to see that with Kleinsasser. Remember his TD in the Chiefs game? The defense didn't even consider him worthy of coverage and they paid for it. He does so many things for this offense but because he does not have the flashy numbers of the "big three" TEs, his value gets underestimated.

UTVikfan
07-24-2004, 05:03 AM
Jimmy K. gets knocked off his feet easy? Wow, are we talking about the same JK? I will pass on the male aesthetics, perhaps they matter to someone, but, besides you two, I am not sure who that would be.

hawaiianvike21
07-24-2004, 05:38 AM
"TEXPACK" wrote:

JK reminds me a lot of William Henderson. He catches the ball o.k. but, then falls down quickly or is easily knocked off his feet.

I guess there's always room for a guy like that on your team.

Henderson's much better looking though. Is there an uglier player in the NFL than Jimmy K.?

No i thought he broke a bunch of tackes when he got t he ball. Did you watch the 2002 yearbook highlights??? It showed jimmy breaking a lot of open field tackles to get more yards then the typical guy to fall down immediately when tackled.

TEXPACK
07-24-2004, 10:05 AM
I didn't watch the highlights, I watched all of the games until the end. I think he's a good player but, c'mon the Vikings almost let him go this year. Jimmy K. is Jimmy K. --let's not make him out to be something he's not.

Every team has guys like him.

packmanxxxi
07-24-2004, 10:58 AM
Most people in the NFL outside of Minn and WI have no idea who JK is. This site is like comedy central with all the homer talk on it. JK being the best TE? lol, I think you forget to mention 2-3 time probowler Franks from across the river. Not saying Franks is better than Gonzo or Heap or anyone else, but just that there is a long list of NFL TE before you get to JK.

It must be sad being a Viking fan. You have a QB with so much talent but can't hang on to the ball, you have a reciever who is amazingly gifted and can't keep his head on straight, you have fans who are delusional to the point of believeing whats not there.... and worse, you have a team with talent who has no heart, drive, ambition, or good coaching. Forever more, the Vikings can have a 4 game lead, and fear will always pervade as they go 3-7 to end the season once again.

All you Viking fans never forget... you've finished 9-7, 6-10, and 5-11 the past 3 years with all that talent. Thats 20-28 over the past 3 years. Sobering thought. Why is this year so different?

RandyMoss8404
07-24-2004, 11:14 AM
Did you look at Franks' 2003 stats?

rjkvikings
07-24-2004, 11:22 AM
"packmanxxxi" wrote:

All you Viking fans never forget... you've finished 9-7, 6-10, and 5-11 the past 3 years with all that talent. Thats 20-28 over the past 3 years. Sobering thought. Why is this year so different?

This year is different because we have some new players to help out and our older players have been practicing. It's funny how all the packers fans can do is say they don't need to do anything in the offseason and talk about how we did last year. That's funny because it's not last year anymore and you can't face the fact that the Packers are going to be the same and the Vikings are going to be better. Sorry, but the truth hurts doesn't it?

packmanxxxi
07-24-2004, 11:31 AM
"rjkvikings" wrote:

"packmanxxxi" wrote:

All you Viking fans never forget... you've finished 9-7, 6-10, and 5-11 the past 3 years with all that talent. Thats 20-28 over the past 3 years. Sobering thought. Why is this year so different?

This year is different because we have some new players to help out and our older players have been practicing. It's funny how all the packers fans can do is say they don't need to do anything in the offseason and talk about how we did last year. That's funny because it's not last year anymore and you can't face the fact that the Packers are going to be the same and the Vikings are going to be better. Sorry, but the truth hurts doesn't it?

Truth hurts? What truth? The "truth" that all of you claimed the Vikes to be division champs 6 games into the season last year? The truth that this EXACT same idealism and confidence was here last year, a year you failed to even MAKE the playoffs. The truth that you fail to see the Packers HAVE improved. You forget about the midseason acqusitions last year that helped us finish 6-1. Thats right, the last 7 games we were 6-1. And your claiming they didn't make any improvements? Just because they didn't make many in the offseason does not mean they made none.

The Packers were 6-2 the last 8 games... more an indication of this year... x2, thats 12-4.... the Vikings were 3-5... x2 thats 6-10.

TEXPACK
07-24-2004, 02:58 PM
Excellent points, this site is more like a cyber insane asylum for the fatuous vike fans.

Quite a collection of gems.

GreenBaySlackers
07-24-2004, 03:06 PM
"TEXPACK" wrote:

Is there an uglier player in the NFL than Jimmy K.?

Yeah there is... ur mamma! lol that was lame but i couldnt resist!

TEXPACK
07-24-2004, 03:13 PM
GreenBaySlobberer<---------Sucks.

GreenBaySlackers
07-24-2004, 03:14 PM
"TEXPACK" wrote:

GreenBaySlobberer<---------Sucks.

What? come on TP i know you can do better than that!

TEXPACK
07-24-2004, 03:20 PM
I can do much better, but, why waste a completely good university education on a viking fan?

I'm not a teacher or a veterinarian.

GreenBaySlackers
07-24-2004, 03:21 PM
"TEXPACK" wrote:

I can do much better, but, why waste a completely good university education on a viking fan?

I'm not a teacher or a veterinarian.

i guess that means your family is not only ignorant, but they aren't spayed of nuitered either

TEXPACK
07-24-2004, 03:26 PM
I do hope you are under 14 with wit such as that?

It's no coincidence that Viking is listed neatly between victim and vile in Webster's is it.

Never mind, why did I think you could read?

P.S. I usually let this go because, we all make spelling errors. However, since you proclaim to be so intelligent I thought I might point out that.

#1 it's Spay.
#2 it's neutered

Why God do you let these people breed?

muchluv4smoot
07-24-2004, 10:31 PM

muchluv4smoot
07-24-2004, 10:50 PM
"sdvikefan" wrote:

Kleinsasser is not the downfield receiving threat that Heap, Gonzalez and Shockey are. That's not at all what I was saying. But it just surprised me how many receptions he does have and his role in our offense is a lot bigger than some people think. At the end of the season some people were saying they didn't think it would really hurt us if Kleinsasser left the team. But it would have.

Most teams look for their TEs to be built like receivers because that's how they use them. The Vikings aren't one of those teams. Tice likes to run the football over the defense so the TE is asked to block for the runner more than advance the football. When we do go to the passing game, Tice likes to spread the defense and have receivers that can go deep. In this type of passing game you need players who can pass protect longer than 2 seconds, which you don't need in the WCO because the QB dumps the ball immediately. But there are times when Kleinsasser is used for those critical short yardage gains. He gives us that option and that's why I don't think the Vikings really need another type of TE. Defenses don't really expect to see that with Kleinsasser. Remember his TD in the Chiefs game? The defense didn't even consider him worthy of coverage and they paid for it. He does so many things for this offense but because he does not have the flashy numbers of the "big three" TEs, his value gets underestimated.



I have to disagree with you here. If we didn't need a TE who can go downfield, then we wouldn't have signed wiggins to do just that. I know we aren't changing our offense, so the plays where the TE goes downfield must have been in there last year. Fact is, Tice said after he signed wiggins, that we needed a TE to fill the role that chamberlain did in his pro bowl year. Tice said he is very excited to have a TE again, that can go down the seams and take pressure off of the outside receivers. If wiggins can be this downfield TE, which I am not sure about, but if he can, he will make it much easier for daunte to hit his WR's downfield. Moe and jimmy will not be getting dumpoff pass after dumpoff pass. Lets face it, probably about 90% of moe and jimmy's catches were 5 yard dumpoff passes. There were probably the 4th or 5th option on the plays. If wiggins is the downfield Te that Tice thinks he will be, watch and see how much easier it is for daunte to get the ball to the WR's. Also wacth and see moe and jimmy catch half as many passes.

Again, I am not dissing jimmy or underestimating what he means to our team. Sounds to me like people underestimate what heap and gonzo mean to their teams. They are good blockers, but no one thinks they are because they catch a lot of passes. It is their good blocking that has experts saying they are the best TE's in the game. Yes, if we had gonzo instead of jimmy, we would definately be loosing pass protection and a great run blocker. We would however be getting a good pass blocker and a good run blocker, as well as a awesome downfield receiver that would get a lot of the attention off of moss and our other receivers. We would be better off with gonzo in my opinion. I am happy we have jimmy, but think people are crazy to put him ahead of heap and gonzo. I won't argue if you put him against any other TE's in the league, because you would have a good arguement there, but gonzo and heap are too complete of a TE to think jimmy is in their league. I do hope wiggins does what Tice expects him to, because you guys will then see what a downfield TE does to open up the field for our ofense. We did have the #1 offense last year, so that isn't badly needed, but would be nice.

magicci
07-24-2004, 10:57 PM
"TEXPACK" wrote:

I do hope you are under 14 with wit such as that?

It's no coincidence that Viking is listed neatly between victim and vile in Webster's is it.

Never mind, why did I think you could read?

P.S. I usually let this go because, we all make spelling errors. However, since you proclaim to be so intelligent I thought I might point out that.

#1 it's Spay.
#2 it's neutered

Why God do you let these people breed?

I didn't know "SPAY" was a new word

TEXPACK
07-25-2004, 01:20 AM
Spay is a word. Spay isn't a new word. The correct way of using the language is difficult for some. I was merely making a point. I am correct.

Example: Magicci should have his dog "spay" or neutered to prevent overpopulation.

ItalianStallion
07-25-2004, 01:33 AM
I have heared vets say spayed, so I am not sure what your smoking TexPack, nevertheless Many "experts" see jimmy K as a great overall TE. Best blocker in the league and decent receiver. Pro football weekly rated him at #4 and called him the best all around TE in the game. Just so you know Barfly, not everyone agrees with your opinion that he is not a great TE.

TEXPACK
07-25-2004, 01:54 AM
All I ever said was Jimmy K. was average.
That's not great but, it's not terrible either.

All right here goes once again.

My vet is "spaying" my dog.
My dog is "spay".
My dog has been "spayed".

I know you may not believe me so read what your beloved webmaster here uses in his signature. I don't necessarily approve of the inequality he practices but, the guy does seem to have a command of the English language. Listen dude, we all make mistakes here and I don't think anyone wishes to turn this place into a language forum. I know I'm right. If you don't agree with me look it up.

sdvikefan
07-25-2004, 05:20 AM
"muchluv4moss" wrote:





I have to disagree with you here. If we didn't need a TE who can go downfield, then we wouldn't have signed wiggins to do just that. I know we aren't changing our offense, so the plays where the TE goes downfield must have been in there last year. Fact is, Tice said after he signed wiggins, that we needed a TE to fill the role that chamberlain did in his pro bowl year. Tice said he is very excited to have a TE again, that can go down the seams and take pressure off of the outside receivers. If wiggins can be this downfield TE, which I am not sure about, but if he can, he will make it much easier for daunte to hit his WR's downfield. Moe and jimmy will not be getting dumpoff pass after dumpoff pass. Lets face it, probably about 90% of moe and jimmy's catches were 5 yard dumpoff passes. There were probably the 4th or 5th option on the plays. If wiggins is the downfield Te that Tice thinks he will be, watch and see how much easier it is for daunte to get the ball to the WR's. Also wacth and see moe and jimmy catch half as many passes.

Again, I am not dissing jimmy or underestimating what he means to our team. Sounds to me like people underestimate what heap and gonzo mean to their teams. They are good blockers, but no one thinks they are because they catch a lot of passes. It is their good blocking that has experts saying they are the best TE's in the game. Yes, if we had gonzo instead of jimmy, we would definately be loosing pass protection and a great run blocker. We would however be getting a good pass blocker and a good run blocker, as well as a awesome downfield receiver that would get a lot of the attention off of moss and our other receivers. We would be better off with gonzo in my opinion. I am happy we have jimmy, but think people are crazy to put him ahead of heap and gonzo. I won't argue if you put him against any other TE's in the league, because you would have a good arguement there, but gonzo and heap are too complete of a TE to think jimmy is in their league. I do hope wiggins does what Tice expects him to, because you guys will then see what a downfield TE does to open up the field for our ofense. We did have the #1 offense last year, so that isn't badly needed, but would be nice.

I don't know man, there's a big difference between how we will be using Wiggins and how those other teams use their TEs. Gonzalez is the leading receiver on his team, along with Holmes. Heap is the leading Raven receiver. Kellen Winslow will become the leading Brown receiver. They don't use their TE to draw pressure off their WRs, their TE is their primary downfield threat. Wiggins will obviously not be our main downfield threat. I just don't think there's anything Wiggins will be used for that Jimmy could not. True most of Jimmy's passes came from short 5 yard dumps, but I did see a few passes to him that were at least 10 yards and he caught them just fine and even broke some tackles. And there is still his TD against the Chiefs...in that score he did exactly what you say WIggins will be useful for, which is present another receiving option that the defense will get burned on if they ignore. And they did. So sorry I just don't see the need for another TE.

hawaiianvike21
07-25-2004, 06:57 AM
Never knew the word spay existed. I thougt it was just a mistypo or something just made up. :lol:

muchluv4smoot
07-25-2004, 03:21 PM
"sdvikefan" wrote:

"muchluv4moss" wrote:
[quote]





I don't know man, there's a big difference between how we will be using Wiggins and how those other teams use their TEs. Gonzalez is the leading receiver on his team, along with Holmes. Heap is the leading Raven receiver. Kellen Winslow will become the leading Brown receiver. They don't use their TE to draw pressure off their WRs, their TE is their primary downfield threat. Wiggins will obviously not be our main downfield threat. I just don't think there's anything Wiggins will be used for that Jimmy could not. True most of Jimmy's passes came from short 5 yard dumps, but I did see a few passes to him that were at least 10 yards and he caught them just fine and even broke some tackles. And there is still his TD against the Chiefs...in that score he did exactly what you say WIggins will be useful for, which is present another receiving option that the defense will get burned on if they ignore. And they did. So sorry I just don't see the need for another TE.




Wiggins will be running the same patterns as heap and gonzo, thus he will be used in the same way. The difference will be, that he won't be the #1 or #2 option for us. Look at the WR's that gonzo and heap play with. Their is a big reason why they are the #1 receiver in their offesnes. Also look at how much easier it is for the crappy KC receivers to get open. They never have a hard time getting open, because of gonzo. He absolutely draws defenders away from their WR's. We didn't even have a TE try and go down the seams last year. No matter who it is, he will at least draw a little attention. If he is good like gonzo and heap, then he will make it so much easier to hit those WR's on the outside. Just watch what winslow jr does for cleveland. I bet one of their receivers has a momster year this year, and it won't just be coincedence.

Put heap and gonzo in our offense, with Moss, and they would still have awesome years. Moss would probably have his biggest year as a pro as well.

I say we didn't use jimmy in the role that we are gonna use wiggins this year, because he wasn't able to be that kind of TE, which would explain why we brought wiggins in. We aren't changing our offense, just adding another weapon, that we didn't have last year, because jimmy isn't that kind of receiving TE. These are my opinons, and by what the coaches have done and said this offseason, I think it sounds like theirs as well. I could be wrong though, I don't claim to be always right. Just going by the facts.

ItalianStallion
07-25-2004, 06:45 PM
I we had a star receiving TE on our team, we wouldn't have enough ball to go around.

Pacmanxxx, I get out a kick out of you man. You say: "hey look you guys went 9-7, 6-10 and 5-11 the past 3 years what makes you think this year will be different?"

Ugh because our record has improved every year since going 5-11, you have been getting worse.
Jeez draw yourself a fricken graph look at the trend.

Not only that but you claim we are ignorant because we fail to recongnize the amazing players you have added including grady Jackson (who is good, not great, he was released by NO for a reason), Jue, Couch etc. oh my what a star studded ensemble! Like I said you claim us to be ignorant but don't even give us the benifit of the doubt that we have improved when we went out and got the best corner in free agency, and the best DE in the draft, to mention only a couple.

Also I love how every Packer fan on here save Los seems to be 100% positive that McKenzie will be back. Let me ask you this, after everything he has said why would you want him back on your team? He is obviously sick of GB.

I hate to say it but if Moss started spouting off about the vikes and our coaches, I wouldn't want him on our team. The same goes for any player, just seems kind of sad how you guys grasp to that glimmer of hope that you might actually be able to stop someone on defense this year.

LosAngelis
07-25-2004, 07:15 PM
I have to agree...I'm not optimistic about McKenzie. McKenzie (I think I mentioned this months ago) has always reminded me of Ricky WIlliams, and its funny with today's weird turn with RW that I bring it back to McKenzie.

I think McKenzie will sit until his fines start equating his salary. I honestly think Sherman will find he has an adequate (not stellar by any means) secondary without him and won't budge even when MM comes groveling back. Then the players union will get involved and there will be some sort of settlement. Then, because he wasn't in training camp, he'll pull a groin in his first game back, and that'll be that. McKenzie is a head case.

I mentioned this on PC.com, but I would never expect Moss to sppout off on his own team. All of his problems tend to be off the field.

I did find this quote from Robert Smith's new book:

• On former Vikings teammate Randy Moss:
"I had my run-ins with Randy. I was seconds away from pouncing on him in Tampa Bay in the locker room, and there was a time up at training camp in Mankato Minn.) where I had some problems with him. But for the most part I just think he was a guy who was just overwhelmed by the amount of attention that he had.

"I think he wants to be a good person, but he struggles with the idea that he needs to keep it real in a sense. I think what Bill Cosby said is true: If you don't act like a thug and you're black in America, then it's hard to get street respect, especially if you're athlete or an entertainer. I think a bit of that plays into Randy's attitude. I think he wants to be a better person and he's growing into his superstar role, but it was just all too quick for anybody to handle, probably."

ndakvikefan
07-25-2004, 11:52 PM
I have to agree with muchluv about one thing. We need that TE that is a pass threat. With Wiggens you only have to throw to him once or twice a game and he serves his purpose. With just the threat of a TE splitting the seam teams would not be able to play cover 2 like they do against us and that would leave Moss or Robinson songle covered every time.
But I still don't think Heap or Gonzo would not work for an offense like the Vikings. They both led thier teams in receptions last year and that does not say much for their WR's. With Moss and Robinson at WR that would not leave many balls for them and that would be taking away from thier strong suit. That is why Jimmy is better for us, the TEAM benifits more from his strong suit which is blocking, just like the Chiefs and Ravens as a team bennifit from thier TE's catching the ball. Yes they are the 2 best in the league, but the vikings do not have enough balls to go around to siut them and the running game would suffer a little with them blocking rather than Jimmy, even though they may be good blockers, that is not thier strength and it is Jimmy's.

muchluv4smoot
07-26-2004, 10:44 AM
"ndakvikefan" wrote:

I have to agree with muchluv about one thing. We need that TE that is a pass threat. With Wiggens you only have to throw to him once or twice a game and he serves his purpose. With just the threat of a TE splitting the seam teams would not be able to play cover 2 like they do against us and that would leave Moss or Robinson songle covered every time.
But I still don't think Heap or Gonzo would not work for an offense like the Vikings. They both led thier teams in receptions last year and that does not say much for their WR's. With Moss and Robinson at WR that would not leave many balls for them and that would be taking away from thier strong suit. That is why Jimmy is better for us, the TEAM benifits more from his strong suit which is blocking, just like the Chiefs and Ravens as a team bennifit from thier TE's catching the ball. Yes they are the 2 best in the league, but the vikings do not have enough balls to go around to siut them and the running game would suffer a little with them blocking rather than Jimmy, even though they may be good blockers, that is not thier strength and it is Jimmy's.


OK, that was my point by saying what I said, that heap and gonzo are better all around TE's than jimmy. People were trying to put jimmy ahead of heap, and as much as I luv jimmy, no way is he better than heap. I don't think you will find anyone other than some vikes fans, who will say that.

I do agree that jimmy does play a different role in our offense. We do need him at what he does as well. I just hope we can also get a TE to go down the middle. I hope wiggins can do it some this year. If he can, he will open up our offense a lot, and that makes us very scary on offense(not like we weren't already).

VKG4LFE
07-26-2004, 12:22 PM
JJK is not a top 3, possibly not a top 10, but he could be. The vikings use their TEs differently than most other teams though. They are chip blockers that run 5 to 10 yard routes. I haven't seen a viking TE run downfield like Heap and Gonzalez do for years!! If they do, it's on a play where daunte is scrambling!! I like JK the way he is a punishing blocker that will catch the ball and rumble for a little bit and get some key first down conversions!!

Hamboner
07-26-2004, 04:08 PM
Jimmy has great hands, Coach Tice has said that many of times. The problem is that he historically stayed in pass protection instead of running a route. Plus once he catches the ball he's a load to bring down. Linehan will use him much more this year in the passing game.

UTVikfan
07-26-2004, 04:23 PM
Packman, was that the Vikings, or the Packers you were talking about? Oh yeah, it was the vikings, we do have a reciever, sorry.