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nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 07:41 PM
I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.
2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.
3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.
4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.
5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?
6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.
7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.
8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.
9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.

badbois
03-16-2006, 07:52 PM
I agree with you totally. I was a tice hater by the end, but we spent all that time developing a head coach and never gave him the opportunity to succeed. losing linehan was an embarassment, and pep was going to have ruff years when he had different coordinaters every season. I think if he had the franchises support he could have been successful and much quicker than the current rebuilding proccess.

Navycoach
03-16-2006, 07:52 PM
Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.
Yeah, there's someone that doesn't get it, and it's not Wilf. Look at the depth of the draft this year, or for the last few years. The second round has consistently given players that just simply kick a$$.
The current management knows what they have to do, and they'll get it done. You're basing very pointed accusations on only less than a week of Free Agency. We'll get it done. Have faith. SKOL!

whackthepack
03-16-2006, 07:56 PM
Great to have a new Viking fan on board!


All good questions that we have been discussing for days and days, check out some of the current thread and you will find out how people are reacting! It varies a lot from person to person and you will find people that support your opinions and some that disagree on every opinion you have stated!

badbois
03-16-2006, 07:57 PM
who's left that can make an impact? who wants to come here now? If the players in the 2nd round were as good as the 1st, they would be in the 1st. I have to got to go to lunch.

Del Rio
03-16-2006, 07:58 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.

He has played one year. He is alotted a curve better himself. Yes I agree the Moss trade was due in part to Red. It is widely believed also that Tice is somewhat to blame and even Culpepper two guys you defend later on in this post.

2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.

I don't know that you can be acurate in saying it doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move when we haven't seen the team even practice yet. Also you have no proof it was 100% their fault. You assume it was, if it was in fact him who had the issues and was causing grief then this point is moot.


3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.

First of all, he wasn't fired. His contract was up. He just wasn't rehired. Second of all no he didn't just need one more year. Or another or another or another. In fact he stated he was on a 3-4 year plan...he failed his own declaration. Good move to let him walk at the end of the year.

4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.

I don't think he is that great anyway. You may be right though. I wont lose sleep over it.

5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?

I find this reasoning faulty. Why are they bad moves? Because you don't recognize their names? If the coach has a plan and things these blue collar workers will help it more then throwing truckloads of money to high priced, high attitude players then more power to him. Just because these guys don't make the all madden team meand they should be written off. You will have to wait to see them play, to see them perform for our team to make these claims stick.


6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.

This isn't a recipe for disaster it is an over reaction.

7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.

If that is all the proof you have (randy ratio) then I'm not sold on it. Overreaction IMO


8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.

Great coaches need to start somewhere, you have no idea they wont make a huge impact. Even though the real law of averages does not apply, I will say that there is a reason it is called a staff. Not all coaches will be great they will work together as a team. Individually they may be weak together they may have a chemistry unmatched. You have no idea until we get to see them in action.

9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?

We had near the most cash available. Wilf has prooven he doesn't piss around. If we wanted them they would have been here at least for a meeting. If we didn't want them they it really isn't a loss.


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.

PS I dont hate you for making that post. I just disagree with damn near the entire thing.

Good post though, well thought out.

NodakPaul
03-16-2006, 08:07 PM
Welcome to PP.O nfl-forums. Pretty strong post for your third one lol! But you backed your opinions up with your reasoning, and I like that.

Unfortunately, I side with Del and disagree with pretty much everything you said! Especially when you complain about our free agency so far. As someone in another post said, this isn't Madden - one team is not going to get the number one FA in every position (I'd give credit where credit is due, but I honestly can't remember who said that). And keep in mind that we have great prospects in every position except QB in the draft this year too. Our front office knows what they are doing, give them a chance before you condem them.

Prophet
03-16-2006, 08:09 PM
Glad you addressed those issues Del, I can rest easier now. I thought I would have to go through that whole post. Wasn't there a post like this, almost word-for-word the other day?

Oh well, welcome to the site and nice post. It's nice to see people's opinions rather than a one-liner here and there.

cajunvike
03-16-2006, 08:10 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.
2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.
3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.
4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.
5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?
6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.
7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.
8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.
9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.

New PP.O Member FUBARed Picking A Good Screen Name

What kind of lame screen name is nfl-forums? What are you...the voice of all the NFL Forums combined? It's great that you have an opinion about all of these issues, but I think I trust the football minds of the Vikings organization a little more than I do your mind! Yes, the Vikings aren't going after all of the big names (and I haven't always agreed with their choices, I admit)..BUT they do have a plan and they should have at least until the start of the season to put all of the pieces in place before we rip them to shreds. I will continue to question individual moves BUT I do have faith that the overall plan will accomplish the stated goal of winning a championship...because I am first and foremost a fan of the team!


BTW, welcome to the jungle!

Del Rio
03-16-2006, 08:11 PM
"Prophet" wrote:

Glad you addressed those issues Del, I can rest easier now. I thought I would have to go through that whole post. Wasn't there a post like this, almost word-for-word the other day?

Oh well, welcome to the site and nice post. It's nice to see people's opinions rather than a one-liner here and there.

Prophet that's the only reason I addressed them man, I was worried you would not get your rest.

Mission Accomplished :grin:

Gift
03-16-2006, 08:15 PM
I think there are alot of folks who share your concerns, we just have to wait to see if there is a larger plan or just smoke & mirrors. I'm definetly looking forward to finding out.

Prophet
03-16-2006, 08:15 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"Prophet" wrote:

Glad you addressed those issues Del, I can rest easier now. I thought I would have to go through that whole post. Wasn't there a post like this, almost word-for-word the other day?

Oh well, welcome to the site and nice post. It's nice to see people's opinions rather than a one-liner here and there.

Prophet that's the only reason I addressed them man, I was worried you would not get your rest.

Mission Accomplished :grin:

lmao, thank you, it is greatly appreciated. I do need my sleep, the days of getting a beauty sleep are way behind me.

Mr. Purple
03-16-2006, 08:19 PM
Honestly, why do people cling on to stuff from the past. The Moss trade has no effect on this team in 06.Its like saying well since Denny Green left a couple years ago, we're doomed for the next couple seasons. This Vikings "Team" is better as a whole with all the whiney SuperStar egos gone. I love Pepp, Loved Moss, but thier isnt anything we can do but love the team we got and have faith in CHildress.

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 08:26 PM
"cajunvike" wrote:

What kind of lame screen name is nfl-forums? What are you...the voice of all the NFL Forums combined?...BTW, welcome to the jungle!

I actually own another forum site which I won't advertise here, but its the reason for the screen name.

Thanks for the welcome!

VikesfaninWis
03-16-2006, 08:32 PM
I agree with Cajun, and Del on this one. I disagree with just about everything you said in your post.

First off, we did 1 game better without Moss. Enough said.

Culpepper has turned into a whiner and baby. He asked for his trade or release, and he got it. We did better with BJ, and we will do better without Pepp in the longhaul..

I will take my chances on the Vikings orginization over your opinion anyday.. I respect your opinion on this, but that is all it is, opinion..

Have faith, you go into all of this with that mindset, you will be looking for bad things all season long. I have your screen name saved now with this post.. If the Vikings do good next season ( and they will) I don't want to see you jumpin on the bandwagon :razz:

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 08:42 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.

"Del Rio" wrote:
[quote]He has played one year. He is alotted a curve better himself. Yes I agree the Moss trade was due in part to Red. It is widely believed also that Tice is somewhat to blame and even Culpepper two guys you defend later on in this post.


Sure, Tice and Pepp could have definitely had a part in it. My point is still the same - the Vikings, as an organization, screwed this one up bad. At the time a lot of us were thinking this might be a good thing. Well, hindsight is 20/20, and although I think an argument can still be made for the benefits of the trade, I don't think we can say that we got the better end of the deal.

"Del Rio" wrote:

2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.

I don't know that you can be acurate in saying it doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move when we haven't seen the team even practice yet. Also you have no proof it was 100% their fault. You assume it was, if it was in fact him who had the issues and was causing grief then this point is moot.

Even if Pepp was causing the grief, the organization did not do what was necessary to satisfy him. Case in point: Pepp wanted to meet with Wilf about his contract. Action by Vikes: Wilf doesn't show, has someone else do his dirty work.

Pepp was arguably the most important player on the team. I don't blame the organization for not giving him money, but franchise players are usually kept 'in the loop' on major issues and have access to management.

The Timberpups are a good example of this. Whenever they make a move, they at least tell Garnett - he's the franchise, and they make sure he knows that.

Pepp may have been partially at fault, but the organization didn't really do anything to help the scenario.


"Del Rio" wrote:

3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.

First of all, he wasn't fired. His contract was up. He just wasn't rehired. Second of all no he didn't just need one more year. Or another or another or another. In fact he stated he was on a 3-4 year plan...he failed his own declaration. Good move to let him walk at the end of the year.

If you look at what Tice was looking for when he came in, he wanted a strong defensive team and a good running team. The defense did take a huge step forward under Tice, and we had a good running attack (with the exception of last year). I think given the changes he was making, and the obvious holes that we had which were relatively easy to fix in FA, Tice should have had one more year.

Its a debatable point, though - just my opinion. :wink:

"Del Rio" wrote:

4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.

I don't think he is that great anyway. You may be right though. I wont lose sleep over it.

Difference of opinion. I think he is a great #2 receiver, but not #1. I would, however, hate to see someone with his after the catch ability leave the team.

"Del Rio" wrote:

5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?

I find this reasoning faulty. Why are they bad moves? Because you don't recognize their names? If the coach has a plan and things these blue collar workers will help it more then throwing truckloads of money to high priced, high attitude players then more power to him. Just because these guys don't make the all madden team meand they should be written off. You will have to wait to see them play, to see them perform for our team to make these claims stick.

I'll address this in another post - don't want to get overly long with this one.


"Del Rio" wrote:

6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.

This isn't a recipe for disaster it is an over reaction.

We'll see as it plays out. If we land Hutch, then the talent of the players may make up for the lack of coaching, but the idea of having a coach by committee approach just doesn't sit right with me.

"Del Rio" wrote:

7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.

If that is all the proof you have (randy ratio) then I'm not sold on it. Overreaction IMO

Its more than the Randy Ratio - its an unproven system. There's a reason most organizations have one person who is responsible for a set of responsibility, and another for another set of responsibilities, etc. Its because it works. Authority by committee is a recipe for power struggles and lack of action. From an organizational management standpoint, I don't think this is a good idea. It will work fine when everyone agrees, but what happens when a fundamental philosophical difference arises?


"Del Rio" wrote:

8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.

Great coaches need to start somewhere, you have no idea they wont make a huge impact. Even though the real law of averages does not apply, I will say that there is a reason it is called a staff. Not all coaches will be great they will work together as a team. Individually they may be weak together they may have a chemistry unmatched. You have no idea until we get to see them in action.

I think we will see that some of the new coaches we hired are great - but at the same time, we will likely have some duds. Its just the way things work. I guess I'm thinking about this like a stock portfolio - you want to put your portfolio together with some proven winners and some rising stars. If you choose only rising stars, you are likely to lose big somewhere.

"Del Rio" wrote:

9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?

We had near the most cash available. Wilf has prooven he doesn't piss around. If we wanted them they would have been here at least for a meeting. If we didn't want them they it really isn't a loss.

Wilf has proven that he doesn't piss around, but we don't know anything about Foley or even Childress and whether they piss around. Wilf is just signing the checks, these other guys are calling the shots.

It was pretty widely reported that we were interested in Jackson, but he didn't even make an appearance...why not?

I see a lot of blind faith in the management group, which is fine. IMO, though, I think that there are some serious issues which need to be questioned. We are dealing with an ENTIRE staff, from the owner to the coaches, who are entering this football game in positions that they are new at. Assuming that they have some master plan that coaches and owners who have been in the league for years have not been able to put together is wishful thinking. I just am not seeing enough positive moves to think that they have some hidden agenda which will shock the league.

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 08:45 PM
"VikesfaninWis" wrote:

I agree with Cajun, and Del on this one. I disagree with just about everything you said in your post.

First off, we did 1 game better without Moss. Enough said.

Culpepper has turned into a whiner and baby. He asked for his trade or release, and he got it. We did better with BJ, and we will do better without Pepp in the longhaul..

I will take my chances on the Vikings orginization over your opinion anyday.. I respect your opinion on this, but that is all it is, opinion..

Have faith, you go into all of this with that mindset, you will be looking for bad things all season long. I have your screen name saved now with this post.. If the Vikings do good next season ( and they will) I don't want to see you jumpin on the bandwagon :razz:

Oh I'll be hitching my wagon to any positive bandwagon I can find! I want nothing more than to be proven wrong.

Mark my words - if the Vikings win 8 games or more next season, I will admit that I was at least partially wrong! I have no problem saying that I am wrong, especially when I am being pessimistic. :lol:

BTW...I may be relatively new as far as a poster, but I've been a lurker for a while, so I'm familiar with most of you. Just haven't really posted because these forums are so busy that its easy to get lost on page 17. ;)

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 08:54 PM
"NodakPaul" wrote:

Welcome to PP.O nfl-forums. Pretty strong post for your third one lol! But you backed your opinions up with your reasoning, and I like that.

Unfortunately, I side with Del and disagree with pretty much everything you said! Especially when you complain about our free agency so far. As someone in another post said, this isn't Madden - one team is not going to get the number one FA in every position (I'd give credit where credit is due, but I honestly can't remember who said that). And keep in mind that we have great prospects in every position except QB in the draft this year too. Our front office knows what they are doing, give them a chance before you condem them.

Nodak,

Thanks for the welcome.

On the FA thing - I agree 100% with the notion that we shouldn't be spending money for the sake of spending money. I am actually REALLY excited about the Chestor Taylor signing. I don't think anyone knows just how good this kid is going to be. He's going to be a real force in this league as a featured back, and if we do land Hutch and shore up that O-Line, he's going to have a field day with us (especially if the passing game gets fired up).

Here's the deal with FA that I am having problems with. Ben Leber - I like the signing overall. He has shown talent with San Diego, and he should fit well into our scheme since we need athletic linebackers who can defend the pass (necessary for cover 2 - Julian Peterson is more of a run stopper). But there is a lot more work that needs to be done in the linebacking corps to get to the point where we can effectively run the cover 2. I don't see us working hard to get the guys we need for this scheme.

Another example - Pat Williams. The guy was a STUD in our last scheme, but in the Tampa 2, he's not going to really fit. The Tampa 2 relies on fast, althetic and smaller D-Linemen. Look at Hovan - didn't work in the traditional 'clog up the line' Minnesota defense, but he goes to Tampa (phenomonal defense), and succeeds. Because this coaching staff has decided to throw out over a decade of the way football has been played in Minnesota (WCO vs a stretch and run || d-line focused defense verses the "bend don't break" Tampa 2), they need to get personell to fit. But instead they are going with the same players who may not necessarily fit the scheme.

I guess that is where my problem comes in - the new staff wants to put a brand new system in place. That's fine. But a brand new system is going to require players who fit that system, and we just spent the past 5 years getting players for a completely different system. You would think that with all the cap room we have, we would be aggressively pursuing players that fit our new scheme. Instead, we have a total 5-7 signings, 4-5 of which are new players, 1 of which is recognized to be an outstanding player at his position.

badbois
03-16-2006, 08:55 PM
lot of you are talking about trust. trust is earned. these guys are rookie coaches who have accomplished little. what they are doing looks bad and there isn't much out there that could redeem them. if they don't get hutch, this offseason has to be seen as a failure.

whackthepack
03-16-2006, 09:00 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:


Wilf has proven that he doesn't piss around, but we don't know anything about Foley or even Childress and whether they piss around. Wilf is just signing the checks, these other guys are calling the shots.

It was pretty widely reported that we were interested in Jackson, but he didn't even make an appearance...why not?


They had their initial FA in right away, and he was in the next group. They had him scheduled for a visit on Monday, Sunday night and Monday the TwinCities got hit with a big snow storm that dropped as much as 18 inches of snow around the metro area. His appointment was delayed until Tuesday, which left him in Cinci over night, the Bungels used that time to sweeten the offer and got him signed.

The Vikings organization can not be held responsible for the weather! Will some people on here probably do blame them, they blame them for everything else.



But the other safety is supposedly who they really wanted, and they had him coming on Monday also! The Giants told him this is the offer, if you do not accept it now then we will withdraw it and will not make another one, so he signed it!

Guess we need to blame that on Childress too!



They should have been more aggressive on getting a safety in the first day, I agree! But they did make a reasonable attempt to get one and it failed!

Del Rio
03-16-2006, 09:03 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.

"Del Rio" wrote:
[quote]He has played one year. He is alotted a curve better himself. Yes I agree the Moss trade was due in part to Red. It is widely believed also that Tice is somewhat to blame and even Culpepper two guys you defend later on in this post.


Sure, Tice and Pepp could have definitely had a part in it. My point is still the same - the Vikings, as an organization, screwed this one up bad. At the time a lot of us were thinking this might be a good thing. Well, hindsight is 20/20, and although I think an argument can still be made for the benefits of the trade, I don't think we can say that we got the better end of the deal.

"Del Rio" wrote:

2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.

I don't know that you can be acurate in saying it doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move when we haven't seen the team even practice yet. Also you have no proof it was 100% their fault. You assume it was, if it was in fact him who had the issues and was causing grief then this point is moot.

Even if Pepp was causing the grief, the organization did not do what was necessary to satisfy him. Case in point: Pepp wanted to meet with Wilf about his contract. Action by Vikes: Wilf doesn't show, has someone else do his dirty work.

Pepp was arguably the most important player on the team. I don't blame the organization for not giving him money, but franchise players are usually kept 'in the loop' on major issues and have access to management.

The Timberpups are a good example of this. Whenever they make a move, they at least tell Garnett - he's the franchise, and they make sure he knows that.

Pepp may have been partially at fault, but the organization didn't really do anything to help the scenario.


"Del Rio" wrote:

3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.

First of all, he wasn't fired. His contract was up. He just wasn't rehired. Second of all no he didn't just need one more year. Or another or another or another. In fact he stated he was on a 3-4 year plan...he failed his own declaration. Good move to let him walk at the end of the year.

If you look at what Tice was looking for when he came in, he wanted a strong defensive team and a good running team. The defense did take a huge step forward under Tice, and we had a good running attack (with the exception of last year). I think given the changes he was making, and the obvious holes that we had which were relatively easy to fix in FA, Tice should have had one more year.

Its a debatable point, though - just my opinion. :wink:

"Del Rio" wrote:

4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.

I don't think he is that great anyway. You may be right though. I wont lose sleep over it.

Difference of opinion. I think he is a great #2 receiver, but not #1. I would, however, hate to see someone with his after the catch ability leave the team.

"Del Rio" wrote:

5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?

I find this reasoning faulty. Why are they bad moves? Because you don't recognize their names? If the coach has a plan and things these blue collar workers will help it more then throwing truckloads of money to high priced, high attitude players then more power to him. Just because these guys don't make the all madden team meand they should be written off. You will have to wait to see them play, to see them perform for our team to make these claims stick.

I'll address this in another post - don't want to get overly long with this one.


"Del Rio" wrote:

6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.

This isn't a recipe for disaster it is an over reaction.

We'll see as it plays out. If we land Hutch, then the talent of the players may make up for the lack of coaching, but the idea of having a coach by committee approach just doesn't sit right with me.

"Del Rio" wrote:

7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.

If that is all the proof you have (randy ratio) then I'm not sold on it. Overreaction IMO

Its more than the Randy Ratio - its an unproven system. There's a reason most organizations have one person who is responsible for a set of responsibility, and another for another set of responsibilities, etc. Its because it works. Authority by committee is a recipe for power struggles and lack of action. From an organizational management standpoint, I don't think this is a good idea. It will work fine when everyone agrees, but what happens when a fundamental philosophical difference arises?


"Del Rio" wrote:

8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.

Great coaches need to start somewhere, you have no idea they wont make a huge impact. Even though the real law of averages does not apply, I will say that there is a reason it is called a staff. Not all coaches will be great they will work together as a team. Individually they may be weak together they may have a chemistry unmatched. You have no idea until we get to see them in action.

I think we will see that some of the new coaches we hired are great - but at the same time, we will likely have some duds. Its just the way things work. I guess I'm thinking about this like a stock portfolio - you want to put your portfolio together with some proven winners and some rising stars. If you choose only rising stars, you are likely to lose big somewhere.

"Del Rio" wrote:

9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?

We had near the most cash available. Wilf has prooven he doesn't piss around. If we wanted them they would have been here at least for a meeting. If we didn't want them they it really isn't a loss.

Wilf has proven that he doesn't piss around, but we don't know anything about Foley or even Childress and whether they piss around. Wilf is just signing the checks, these other guys are calling the shots.

It was pretty widely reported that we were interested in Jackson, but he didn't even make an appearance...why not?

I see a lot of blind faith in the management group, which is fine. IMO, though, I think that there are some serious issues which need to be questioned. We are dealing with an ENTIRE staff, from the owner to the coaches, who are entering this football game in positions that they are new at. Assuming that they have some master plan that coaches and owners who have been in the league for years have not been able to put together is wishful thinking. I just am not seeing enough positive moves to think that they have some hidden agenda which will shock the league.

I am too fat ATM to take the time to break up all of that again. I will say however that what you see as blind faith I see as blind chicken little.

A few things that seemed important enough to respond to at the moment.

I don't feel the defense took a huge step forward under Tice. In fact they ended at 28th overall in total defense his final year here. Which is worse then it was when he took over. Even the run defense got progressivley worse under his tenure.

The Culpepper thing, I knew you were going to say that. You know I don't know about you but personally I don't want my team to powder any players ass in an attempt to make him stay. I don't want my team to have to bend over backwords and kiss ass for a guy who has over 150 turnovers in his career.


Again well thought out and fun to read, we just don't agree. There is not enough solid fact in either of our arguments to prove anyone wrong, so we do what men do and agree to disagree. In the end we root for the Vikes, if we do good: I will not be surprised, you will be in for a shock, and we both will be happy.

whackthepack
03-16-2006, 09:04 PM
"badbois" wrote:

lot of you are talking about trust. trust is earned. these guys are rookie coaches who have accomplished little. what they are doing looks bad and there isn't much out there that could redeem them. if they don't get hutch, this offseason has to be seen as a failure.


In your opinion!

I like what they are doing, and I am just fine with it! They are the people that are getting paid to judge the talent, put schemes and players in place! None of us fans are! How do you know that everything they wanted has not turned out exactly as they planned?

The only thing that will tell how this new administration will do is time and I will give them 3 years to judge them, I gave Tice 4!

Del Rio
03-16-2006, 09:07 PM
"badbois" wrote:

lot of you are talking about trust. trust is earned. these guys are rookie coaches who have accomplished little. what they are doing looks bad and there isn't much out there that could redeem them. if they don't get hutch, this offseason has to be seen as a failure.

LOL, what they are doing?

You have no idea what they are doing. The defensive Cordinator is not calling up guys asking them to vistit.

The front office moves are Rob and Brad, I'm sure brad consults but you are saying what they are doing, when in fact your opinion is being based on what they are not doing, taking it a step forward....what they are not doing that you think they should be.

I'm gonna bet they know what they are doing a tiny bit more then us.

I have no idea how people freely judge when not one single practice or game has been played. I understand optimism and pessimism, I like to wait until there is actually something to talk about before one side pits against the other.

Prophet
03-16-2006, 09:08 PM
Complete lunacy badbois. The coaching staff will be fine, at least they have the ability to think and have said they will fit their schemes to the personnel they have on the field. Nobody knows who the final 53 will be yet. The offseason is young.

They put their best effort into getting Hutchinson and most of us have our fingers crossed. If they don't get him you still have to give them an A+ for effort. Chester Taylor is a great pickup. Sure, I would have loved to see Edge on the team, but Taylor will fit the system fine and comes with an affordable price tag. It's all about the team, not some heros that you sign up based on name recognition. If the players buy into the system and the team chemistry is there anything is possible.

nfl-forums, I can see where you're coming from on that last post regarding some of the pickups. I don't necessarily agree with them, but you give sound reasoning. Pat Williams will continue to be a beast. You can call the defense a cover 2 or the offense a WCO, but we all know there is a lot of variability in how these are implemented based on the players you have on the field. The future looks bright.

The time-frame for analyizing the transactions is different than many people like to give it. Some people are already saying the offseason is a flop which is so ridiculous I can't even believe I respond to it. The grand plan is not known to us. We see tidbits of information tossed out to us by the press.

Sure, it would be a small miracle to have the Vikings take the Big Dance in '06. They will be closer to achieving that goal with a competent coaching staff and an owner that wants to win. There is nothing more satisfying then knowing that the Redneck/Tice era is behind us. That is enough to fuel the fire. The rebuiding of a team is obviously the next step when ownership and coaching staffs are overhauled. The future is bright.

DarrinNelsonguy
03-16-2006, 09:14 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.
2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.
3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.
4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.
5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?
6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.
7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.
8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.
9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.


How do you or anyone else know the are FUBARing up the team? The guys in charge no more about football that you, me or any other fans. They seem to have a distinct direction and plan that they are following to make this a 1st class organization. They are signing guys that they believe will fit their system and a reminder this is not Fantasy football or Madden football 06 offseason this is the real thing, so GET OVER IT WE ARE NOT GOING TO SIGN ALL THE BIG NAME FREE AGENTS!!!!!!!!!

You need to sit back, RELAX, and put some faith in the franchise and the staff that Zygi has in place. The team has not even played a whole season so how can you possibly know if their plan is wrong. Patience is a virtue and must be learned by you and others as well.

To paraphrase a quote from Caine in another thread "We don't need all the prima donna's and Superstars, because if you look at the Patriots and Steelers they seem to do fine with TEAM players."

A closing note on the Culpepper trade why keep a guy around who doesn't want be a part of the TEAM? Remember: TEAMS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS NOT INDIVIDUALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 09:17 PM
Ok, I'll say this to show that I am not completely predicting the doom of the Vikings.

When Tice was fired, I said (not here, but elsewhere) that if they chose to get rid of Tice, then they need to overhaul the team. I am glad to see that they are making that effort at least. At the same time, though, I really did not expect an overhaul to bring a sudden rise to glory.

All of you who disagree with me make good points: we haven't seen the team play yet, the offeseason IS still young, and yes, those calling the shots DO kow a lot more than I do.

I think there is reason for optimism among the ranks of the faithful. Childress is a smart man and is an experienced coach. There are a lot of rising stars among the coaches, which is a great sign.

History leads me to believe, however, that it is going to be AT LEAST three years before we see this new look team become competitive again. With the number of changes we are making, and with some of what I have seen so far (stated above in excrutiating length), this year could be a painful one for those of us who are faithful.

Thanks for the responses - I am happy to agree to disagree. I'm also happy to discuss this more - I'm not a Viking hater. :) I just love speculating and analyzing my favorite team. :D

Prophet
03-16-2006, 09:24 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

...History leads me to believe, however, that it is going to be AT LEAST three years before we see this new look team become competitive again. With the number of changes we are making, and with some of what I have seen so far (stated above in excrutiating length), this year could be a painful one for those of us who are faithful.

Sure that is a possibility. I think it would take a small miracle for the team to come out of the gates a superpower. Could happen, but that is mostly driven with my purple shades on. I am willing to wait for a few years for the team and coaches to gel in the new system if need be. I've waited for over four decades as a fan so what's a few more years.

My biggest concern is dealing with the lunacy on these forums when/if the Vikings don't come out of the gate strong in '06. There are a lot of younger fans that have never suffered through very many painful years (even though every Tice year was excruciatingly painful for me).

I am optimistic in a longer time-frame. Sure, I want them to succeed every year, but wouldn't be surprised if it takes a few years under a revamped system. Either way, I'll still be a fan, you can count on that.

DarrinNelsonguy
03-16-2006, 09:26 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

Ok, I'll say this to show that I am not completely predicting the doom of the Vikings.

When Tice was fired, I said (not here, but elsewhere) that if they chose to get rid of Tice, then they need to overhaul the team. I am glad to see that they are making that effort at least. At the same time, though, I really did not expect an overhaul to bring a sudden rise to glory.

All of you who disagree with me make good points: we haven't seen the team play yet, the offeseason IS still young, and yes, those calling the shots DO kow a lot more than I do.

I think there is reason for optimism among the ranks of the faithful. Childress is a smart man and is an experienced coach. There are a lot of rising stars among the coaches, which is a great sign.

History leads me to believe, however, that it is going to be AT LEAST three years before we see this new look team become competitive again. With the number of changes we are making, and with some of what I have seen so far (stated above in excrutiating length), this year could be a painful one for those of us who are faithful.

Thanks for the responses - I am happy to agree to disagree. I'm also happy to discuss this more - I'm not a Viking hater. :) I just love speculating and analyzing my favorite team. :D

We all have one common goal as fans at that is to win a Championship and the great thing is we all believe we know the best way to accomplish the goal.

badbois
03-16-2006, 09:26 PM
somehow I dodn't think tice's 3 yr plan involved not even being able to retain an offensive coordinator.

Del Rio
03-16-2006, 09:27 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

Ok, I'll say this to show that I am not completely predicting the doom of the Vikings.

When Tice was fired, I said (not here, but elsewhere) that if they chose to get rid of Tice, then they need to overhaul the team. I am glad to see that they are making that effort at least. At the same time, though, I really did not expect an overhaul to bring a sudden rise to glory.

All of you who disagree with me make good points: we haven't seen the team play yet, the offeseason IS still young, and yes, those calling the shots DO kow a lot more than I do.

I think there is reason for optimism among the ranks of the faithful. Childress is a smart man and is an experienced coach. There are a lot of rising stars among the coaches, which is a great sign.

History leads me to believe, however, that it is going to be AT LEAST three years before we see this new look team become competitive again. With the number of changes we are making, and with some of what I have seen so far (stated above in excrutiating length), this year could be a painful one for those of us who are faithful.

Thanks for the responses - I am happy to agree to disagree. I'm also happy to discuss this more - I'm not a Viking hater. :) I just love speculating and analyzing my favorite team. :D

I would find 10 wins this year very enjoyable. 9 wins would even help me sleep at night. We start talking 8-8 or less I may be a little worried. I don't expect miracles this year, I do expect improvement though IMO.

jaymz7
03-16-2006, 09:27 PM
You know this is about the fourth post started by a new member in the last week. Each post has not come right out and attacked the Vikes, but has made comments that would get any Vikes fan a bit disgruntled.

I am not saying the same person starts them or the person posting is trying to start something, but it is a bit of a coincidence.

Anyway I said it in another post similar to this one last night. There are no facts to back the statements made only opinions of the poster. I have my own opinions and have stated them many times on the trades, FA, and new leadership the team has went through. But the bottom line is Good or bad the Vikes are still my team. I will support them through the good and bad. (even though I may grumble about some things) As a fan you have to give them the chance to prove what they are doing is right or wrong. If we are that smart that we know who should be traded, signed, or in charge then we need to get our resumes in to the NFL.

I like to think of myself as a knowledgeable football fan, but I admit I do not know everything. But with that being said I have about as much right to bash the Vikes for the recent changes as they do of the performance of my job at work. Until we see how this works out I will reserve my opinions and make them known then, but I will never bash the team.

"Opinions are like asses. Everyone has one, but some are cuter then others."

badbois
03-16-2006, 09:30 PM
I don't know what the final product will be. but I do pay attention to footbal so I know are starting qbwas supplanted in favor of brian griese. I know chilress has a LOT of power for a rookie head coach. I know that for 31 mil in caproom means that a kick and two backups ain't great.

PAvikesfan
03-16-2006, 09:36 PM
first off... i am glad Culpepper is gone... i think the coaching staff had little to so with that baby wanting out.

i think Childress is right on task with developing a good WCO. we need to fill in some holes like on the Oline and Linebacker positions, but the signings so far have been decent. he is looking for players that will do what he says and execute the plays like he says...not Culp-tards who still want to play 3-deep even though we only have one WR dong a deep route.

i am not too concerned about our HC and DC... it is all the other rookie coaching staff that makes me nervous a bit.

some other points:
There is a reason why Tice is only an assistant right now for the Jags...and I don't need to spell all the words for everyone to figure it out.

Steve Loney didn't do a good job at either of his positions last year. i know it is a bit unfair to judge someone that had to wear two hats on the offense, but he really sucked as a coach last season.

Chavous was expendible and Brian Williams wanted out.

I don't think you are giving the new staff enough credit. everyone they signed so far has been to build the O and D they way they want it. Big name players have big name egos attached and can cause big name headaches if things don't go the way their big name heads want. Childress is from a dynasty team in the NFC and our DC is from one of the best Defenses from the last 7-8 years... i feel comfortable with them.

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 09:39 PM
"jaymz7" wrote:

You know this is about the fourth post started by a new member in the last week. Each post has not come right out and attacked the Vikes, but has made comments that would get any Vikes fan a bit disgruntled.

I am not saying the same person starts them or the person posting is trying to start something, but it is a bit of a coincidence.

Anyway I said it in another post similar to this one last night. There are no facts to back the statements made only opinions of the poster. I have my own opinions and have stated them many times on the trades, FA, and new leadership the team has went through. But the bottom line is Good or bad the Vikes are still my team. I will support them through the good and bad. (even though I may grumble about some things) As a fan you have to give them the chance to prove what they are doing is right or wrong. If we are that smart that we know who should be traded, signed, or in charge then we need to get our resumes in to the NFL.

I like to think of myself as a knowledgeable football fan, but I admit I do not know everything. But with that being said I have about as much right to bash the Vikes for the recent changes as they do of the performance of my job at work. Until we see how this works out I will reserve my opinions and make them known then, but I will never bash the team.

"Opinions are like asses. Everyone has one, but some are cuter then others."

Well I haven't seen every post that people have made, so excuse me if you have already answered this a million times. I would be very interested to know, however, who thinks this is a good deal:

Vikings lose
Daunte Culpepper - Career passer rating higher than Dan Marino
Randy Moss - On pace to break most of Jerry Rice's records

Vikings gain
Napoleon Harris
Troy Williamson
2nd Round Draft Pick

Now I agree with everyone who has pointed out that this is my opinion, but if you put your ear to the ground, I'm not the only person who is wondering how the Vikings just got jobbed out of Moss and Culpepper with only the compensation that I mentioned.

IF this is a good trade, in your opinion, then maybe we should package our 2nd round pick, Williamson, and Harris together and move up to a top 10 draft pick. Something tells me that we wouldn't find any suitors.

I don't think you have to be receiving a check from Mr. Wilf to recognize that when it comes to trades in the past two years we haven't exactly been getting the upper-hand.

badbois
03-16-2006, 09:42 PM
I am a vikes fan 1st of all and I always will be. I see the players on the field and that's who I become attached to. because I have alliegence to the guys who go out on the field and bleed for my team and not for the rich ass that owns it doesn't change that.

DCPologirl
03-16-2006, 09:46 PM
what does Fubaring mean? ;lol

C-PepNSalt
03-16-2006, 09:47 PM
F'ed up beyond all recognition

Ltrey33
03-16-2006, 09:57 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.
2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.
3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.
4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.
5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?
6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.
7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.
8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.
9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.

1. So if it was Red's trade, why is it under the "New Ownership..." thread? And so what if they drafted Williamson? What's with the need for instant gratification? He does have a ways to go...but he's not a bust.

2. The C-Pep trade WAS NOT 100% ownership. I think it's pretty ludicrous to have your quarterback to come in and ask for more dough the year after he doubles his TDs with INTs and wrecks his knee. Not to mention all the sulking Culpepper did!

3. Tice's teams all underperformed and never got it done when it mattered. They started 6-0 and 5-1 and missed the playoffs one year and "backed in" the next. If you add in the boat scandal, the ticket scalping, the Onterrio Smith drama, the loss in AZ to keep us out of the playoffs, his HORRID record on the road and the numerous times he was outcoached, it was pretty clear that he would be fired. The man had 4 years and never got better then 9-7...not many coaches last through that.

4. Who cares about low-balling Burleson? Sure, I'd like to keep him, but he was bad this year without Moss on the other side and he was hurt all the time. With TT, Koren, Troy and Marcus, he's pretty expendable...he's not that superior in talent to any of those guys. Not to mention the fact that if Seattle takes him we get a 3rd rounder and if they don't we barely have to pay him!

5. I really, really wish people would stop talking about our bad free agency. Just becuase you have the money doesn't mean you need to spend it! The coaches believe all of these guys have what it takes to succeed in the new system. Don't get so hung up on big names all the time. The coaches and the management know more than we do, that's why they get payed millions and we post on message boards.

6. Loney sure did a great job with the offensive line last year, huh? We didn't have any holding penalties or false starts. :roll: Loney wasn't all that tremendous, and if Childress thinks he's got the right people then we have to reserve judgement until we see the results.

7. Doesn't pretty much every team have a "triangle of authority"? Isn't it usually the owner, the coach and the director of player personnel? I'd much rather have a triangle of authority than a head coach who has autonomous control or an owner like Dan Snyder or Al Davis who make all of the decisions.

8. The new coaching staff is fine! What's wrong with having new blood? Hiring Marty Schottenheimer and Dick Vermiel over and over again certainly hasn't worked.

9. We're not getting people to visit because we don't really want them to visit. We signed Leber, Taylor and Longwell who were all our first choices at their respective positions.

You people really need to chill the fuck out. I'm getting really tired of the negativity coming from you people around the moves that Childress and Zygi are making. We haven't even seen any of these guys perform for crying out loud! Stop being sour grapes, support your team, and stop bitching like a bunch of fish wives.

NordicNed
03-16-2006, 10:01 PM
I won't even read this post, the poster lost me on his first line.

The Moss issue is long gone and that was enough for me to decide I wasn't going to read on.

I'm done looking at the past, the future is now, and thats the road I'm on....

jaymz7
03-16-2006, 10:01 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

"jaymz7" wrote:

You know this is about the fourth post started by a new member in the last week. Each post has not come right out and attacked the Vikes, but has made comments that would get any Vikes fan a bit disgruntled.

I am not saying the same person starts them or the person posting is trying to start something, but it is a bit of a coincidence.

Anyway I said it in another post similar to this one last night. There are no facts to back the statements made only opinions of the poster. I have my own opinions and have stated them many times on the trades, FA, and new leadership the team has went through. But the bottom line is Good or bad the Vikes are still my team. I will support them through the good and bad. (even though I may grumble about some things) As a fan you have to give them the chance to prove what they are doing is right or wrong. If we are that smart that we know who should be traded, signed, or in charge then we need to get our resumes in to the NFL.

I like to think of myself as a knowledgeable football fan, but I admit I do not know everything. But with that being said I have about as much right to bash the Vikes for the recent changes as they do of the performance of my job at work. Until we see how this works out I will reserve my opinions and make them known then, but I will never bash the team.

"Opinions are like asses. Everyone has one, but some are cuter then others."

Well I haven't seen every post that people have made, so excuse me if you have already answered this a million times. I would be very interested to know, however, who thinks this is a good deal:

Vikings lose
Daunte Culpepper - Career passer rating higher than Dan Marino
Randy Moss - On pace to break most of Jerry Rice's records

Vikings gain
Napoleon Harris
Troy Williamson
2nd Round Draft Pick

Now I agree with everyone who has pointed out that this is my opinion, but if you put your ear to the ground, I'm not the only person who is wondering how the Vikings just got jobbed out of Moss and Culpepper with only the compensation that I mentioned.

IF this is a good trade, in your opinion, then maybe we should package our 2nd round pick, Williamson, and Harris together and move up to a top 10 draft pick. Something tells me that we wouldn't find any suitors.

I don't think you have to be receiving a check from Mr. Wilf to recognize that when it comes to trades in the past two years we haven't exactly been getting the upper-hand.

You know I have been watching people post CPEP's and Moss's states compared to the greats and it is getting a bit old.

First I agree CPEP has a higher passer rating then Marino, But Marino hasn't won a superbowl either. Heck Peyton Manning has thrown more TD's in one season then any QB in history. That must make him the greatest QB to ever play! Think about it for every stat you want to throw out there is a negative one that could be thrown out also ( fumbles and interceptions ) This statement is not enough to say that we were wrong to trade CPEP because he didn't want to be here any longer.

As for Moss and Rice. If I am not mistaken didn't Jerry Rice play for about three other teams? WHy was he let go from the 49 ers, the Raiders, Seattle. He holds all the records that Moss is on track to break.

When it comes to winning you don't have to have the greatest or the best to win. You need team chemestry, a good sound plan, and the people that can get it done. I love Moss and will always consider him one of the greatest receivers ever no matter who he plays for, but he was a distraction and was tearing the team apart.

As far as what we got in return your right it is not close to equal value as you have listed it, but you have to take in account the cap money it has saved us which will be spent regardless of what you feel. The FA period is far from over and not everyone has been released yet. Some wont come until their roster bonus is due or another player is signed.

The trades have been made, the players have moved on, get over it already. SHould we bring up some of the bad teams of the past too. How about Les when he coached. You haven't said how terrible he was. It is the same thing you are complaining about past news that cannot be changed. Move forward and support your team. See if the changes will work or not. Then complain.

twiztedfait
03-16-2006, 10:02 PM
Vikings lose
Daunte Culpepper - Career passer rating higher than Dan Marino
Randy Moss - On pace to break most of Jerry Rice's records

Vikings gain
Napoleon Harris
Troy Williamson
2nd Round Draft Pick

Now I agree with everyone who has pointed out that this is my opinion, but if you put your ear to the ground, I'm not the only person who is wondering how the Vikings just got jobbed out of Moss and Culpepper with only the compensation that I mentioned.

IF this is a good trade, in your opinion, then maybe we should package our 2nd round pick, Williamson, and Harris together and move up to a top 10 draft pick. Something tells me that we wouldn't find any suitors.

I don't think you have to be receiving a check from Mr. Wilf to recognize that when it comes to trades in the past two years we haven't exactly been getting the upper-hand.

I think we got hozed in the moss trade....that is another thread

With Cpep it was something that needed to be done. He did not want to play here so you get what you can. There is more to this then getting value from Pep. It is about image. Wilffy wants to prove the the fans and minnesota that he will not put up with problem players. He wants to run his business with class and expects his employees to act that way.

I personally think this was more of a stadium move then getting value for pep. We were going to cut him anyways so why not get something in return.

As far as trading up I don't think it is worth it. we would have to trade the farm to get what we want and no one person is worth it. This is a team sport. Get teamates that work well together and the the sum is greater then each individual person.

cajunvike
03-16-2006, 10:05 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

"cajunvike" wrote:

What kind of lame screen name is nfl-forums? What are you...the voice of all the NFL Forums combined?...BTW, welcome to the jungle!

I actually own another forum site which I won't advertise here, but its the reason for the screen name.

Thanks for the welcome!

I figured as much! :lol:

Good to see some content from new members...even if I don't totally agree, it is good fodder for debate...which is always fun...as long as it doesn't get ugly!

Keep on postin' !

badbois
03-16-2006, 10:05 PM
yes, we are on a message board, expressing thoughts and opinions. the idea that if we don't like what management is doing we should wait and see what happens defeates the purpose. I don't like the current direction so I am expressing why. If you have an opinion about what you like and why I would like to hear it, but wait and see isn't saying anything!

sleepagent
03-16-2006, 10:06 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.
2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.
3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.
4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.
5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?
6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.
7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.
8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.
9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.

Everybody is entiled to their own opinion, no matter how wrong it is. I for one think you're off base on most of your thoughts. The proof isn't to debate it now, it'll evolve over the next season or so.

Del Rio
03-16-2006, 10:08 PM
"cajunvike" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

"cajunvike" wrote:

What kind of lame screen name is nfl-forums? What are you...the voice of all the NFL Forums combined?...BTW, welcome to the jungle!

I actually own another forum site which I won't advertise here, but its the reason for the screen name.

Thanks for the welcome!

I figured as much! :lol:

Good to see some content from new members...even if I don't totally agree, it is good fodder for debate...which is always fun...as long as it doesn't get ugly!

Keep on postin' !

I hope this isn't the site that was PM'ing people asking them to join a few months back, name looks familiar. It is posted in the Mod forum if I wasn't so lazy i would look.

ultravikingfan
03-16-2006, 10:09 PM
"badbois" wrote:

yes, we are on a message board, expressing thoughts and opinions. the idea that if we don't like what management is doing we should wait and see what happens defeates the purpose. I don't like the current direction so I am expressing why. If you have an opinion about what you like and why I would like to hear it, but wait and see isn't saying anything!

http://www.smilies-and-more.de/pics/smilies/hands/073.gif

Del Rio
03-16-2006, 10:11 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:

"badbois" wrote:

yes, we are on a message board, expressing thoughts and opinions. the idea that if we don't like what management is doing we should wait and see what happens defeates the purpose. I don't like the current direction so I am expressing why. If you have an opinion about what you like and why I would like to hear it, but wait and see isn't saying anything!

http://www.smilies-and-more.de/pics/smilies/hands/073.gif

Ditto.......

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 10:18 PM
Interesting responses. Besides being compared to a 'fish wife', it was pretty entertaining to read the responses. Good stuff.

A few points:

1. Loney. In the NFL he is recognized as one of the best O-Line coaches in the league. Last year was bad, but he was also wearing two big hats, dealing with a ton of injuries, and had what amounts to 3rd string players starting. Considering all that, he actually did pretty good given his situation. I have yet to hear any reasonable argument to tell me that our new O-Line coaches are going to work out better. Anyone know anything about them to give me some reason to think they are better than an O-line coach of several years like Loney?

2. Focusing on the Past. My point is simple: in the past few years the Vikings have been an embarrassement in the way that they have been run. Losing Moss and Pepp for the compensation we received is unacceptable. Again, I challenge anyone to tell me that we got equal value for two of the best players in the league. So far no one has tried to make this argument which leads me to believe that everyone pretty much agrees that we got hosed out of two of the best players in the league.

3. Tradding Pepp. Here's the real scoop - it did not need to be done. He was under contract and publicly stated that if he was not released or traded that he would play in 2006. We could have kept him under contract, told him that he will be released or traded next year, and this year to work hard to raise his value.

4. Spending money. I have said numerous times that we don't have to spend money to have a good free agency. But, there is no reason that we should leave free agency and look back saying that we weren't the team that made the most improvements. So far since FA we have arguably upgraded these spots: RB, K, LB, and OL. Some of those might be draws, some of those are definitely upgrades. Oh, and we lost big time at QB.

5. Coaching. Again, I have said numerous times that I do not think Childress is going to be a bad coach. However, I do think that with an entirely new staff of rookie coaches that there will be places that we suffer. Personally, I think Childress was the best pickup out there, but the overhauls that we made in the coaching staff leaves a giant question mark.

6. Negativity. I am sorry if you don't like the negativity. I'll be the first person to tell myself "I told you so" if I'm wrong. The negativity is my frustration from what I see happening with our very young and inexperienced administration. Again, if anyone can tell me that even with the cap space we gained in jettisoning Moss and Culpepper that we actually came out ahead in the deal, I'll be all ears. So far I've seen no reason to believe that we are the ones who got the better end of the deals.

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 10:20 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"cajunvike" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

"cajunvike" wrote:

What kind of lame screen name is nfl-forums? What are you...the voice of all the NFL Forums combined?...BTW, welcome to the jungle!

I actually own another forum site which I won't advertise here, but its the reason for the screen name.

Thanks for the welcome!

I figured as much! :lol:

Good to see some content from new members...even if I don't totally agree, it is good fodder for debate...which is always fun...as long as it doesn't get ugly!

Keep on postin' !

I hope this isn't the site that was PM'ing people asking them to join a few months back, name looks familiar. It is posted in the Mod forum if I wasn't so lazy i would look.

Nope...not me. I have owned my own forums and websites for years and have had to deal with spammers. Believe me, I'll be respectful. :smile:

If the username is a problem, let me know and we can get it changed. I'm not here to recruit, I'm here to talk all Vikings.

ultravikingfan
03-16-2006, 10:24 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"cajunvike" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

"cajunvike" wrote:

What kind of lame screen name is nfl-forums? What are you...the voice of all the NFL Forums combined?...BTW, welcome to the jungle!

I actually own another forum site which I won't advertise here, but its the reason for the screen name.

Thanks for the welcome!

I figured as much! :lol:

Good to see some content from new members...even if I don't totally agree, it is good fodder for debate...which is always fun...as long as it doesn't get ugly!

Keep on postin' !

I hope this isn't the site that was PM'ing people asking them to join a few months back, name looks familiar. It is posted in the Mod forum if I wasn't so lazy i would look.

Nope...not me. I have owned my own forums and websites for years and have had to deal with spammers. Believe me, I'll be respectful. :smile:

If the username is a problem, let me know and we can get it changed. I'm not here to recruit, I'm here to talk all Vikings.

No, its cool man.

You are entitled to your own opionions; unless the conflict with mine. :grin:

I am sure that you are aware that being new and being a little on the negative side that people are going to challenge you. You are doing a good job.

Welcome!

Del Rio
03-16-2006, 10:30 PM
"6. Negativity. I am sorry if you don't like the negativity. I'll be the first person to tell myself "I told you so" if I'm wrong. The negativity is my frustration from what I see happening with our very young and inexperienced administration. Again, if anyone can tell me that even with the cap space we gained in jettisoning Moss and Culpepper that we actually came out ahead in the deal, I'll be all ears. So far I've seen no reason to believe that we are the ones who got the better end of the deals."


If you want to look at face value I guess you can't I will say this when Duante and Moss have been absent in this present day Vikings team we have won 7/9 games, whats that 78% of our games?

I mean since we are simplifying this whole "did we end up on top" thing, I don't think it gets anymore basic then that. Sure we ended up on top we win near 80% of our football games without them.

I mean if you want to look at it more then face value, and start talking about off field distractions, bad press, holding us back from getting a stadium, team chemistry....then of course you could entertain the idea.

There were two big shifts in the Vikings organization over the last few years that have effected the team enormously and neither of them were the loss of Moss or Culpepper. They were both the loss of cordinators.

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 10:32 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:

I am sure that you are aware that being new and being a little on the negative side that people are going to challenge you. You are doing a good job.

Welcome!

Eh...I don't mind if people challenge me, I've certainly been wrong before. I'm also not this negative all the time. I don't know, maybe its the two snowfalls keeping spring away that makes this FA look so bad. ;)

Thanks for the welcome.

MensaTice
03-16-2006, 10:33 PM
nfl-forums
:blah5: :blah5: :blah5: :blah5:
:pukeright:

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 10:37 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

There were two big shifts in the Vikings organization over the last few years that have effected the team enormously and neither of them were the loss of Moss or Culpepper. They were both the loss of cordinators.

Agreed there. Can't blame Wilf on that one either. I like our HC and DC, but I'm not so sure about our OC (just don't know enough about him).

I'm pointing out the Moss and Culpepper thing because I am wasting too much time on this forum as it is. :) I wanted to just focus in one aspect of the debate.

Oh, and the winning 80% of our games without Moss or Culpepper argument...not so sure if I buy that argument. That implies that somehow Pepp and Moss were the reason we lost, or at least that there are better players out there. A lot of factors get played into those wins that would make that stat.

Again, though, on paper I don't think it is possible to say that we got value for those guys.

Del Rio
03-16-2006, 10:41 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

There were two big shifts in the Vikings organization over the last few years that have effected the team enormously and neither of them were the loss of Moss or Culpepper. They were both the loss of cordinators.

Agreed there. Can't blame Wilf on that one either. I like our HC and DC, but I'm not so sure about our OC (just don't know enough about him).

I'm pointing out the Moss and Culpepper thing because I am wasting too much time on this forum as it is. :) I wanted to just focus in one aspect of the debate.

Oh, and the winning 80% of our games without Moss or Culpepper argument...not so sure if I buy that argument. That implies that somehow Pepp and Moss were the reason we lost, or at least that there are better players out there. A lot of factors get played into those wins that would make that stat.

Again, though, on paper I don't think it is possible to say that we got value for those guys.

For what it is worth I don't buy it either I only was pointing it out because there are a lot of things that factor into the equation. Your looking at it just on paper, so I pulled that stat out just on paper not looking any deeper into it. The point wasn't they were holding us back, the point is how can you get negative trade value for guys when in the end your team is winning more games when they are not in?

It's not possible.

ultravikingfan
03-16-2006, 10:43 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

Again, though, on paper I don't think it is possible to say that we got value for those guys.

You are right, on paper.

See, Del and I both coach football. Del on the college, and I on the youth side. What you fail to understand is the unity that a team needs. They must all be on the same page and unified in there goals. Randy and Pep were not. They had their owns goals. They both rocked the boat.

So, what it all boils down to is chemistry. You cannot let one rotten apple spoil the rest.

I love the way Cowher deals with it. Plax wanted more money more balls...me, me, me. Cowher said "see ya" we can win without you. Last time I checked Cowher has a Super Bowl win and Plax does not.

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 10:47 PM
So addition by subtraction?

BTW, I never said that losing these guys wasn't a good thing (I don't think that, but its not part of my argument) - I'm saying we didn't get fair value for them.

Heck, from what I hear Miami was looking to get Schaub and was willing to give up a 2nd rounder AND a player. Of course they were happy to find that the Vikings wanted just a 2nd rounder for a proven starter.

Losing Pepp given his dispute with management may have been the best available move (it may not have been as well), but we didn't get value for him.

This leads me back to my original point - this ownership group since coming in has overhauled the whole team and left in a state beyond all recognition.

ultravikingfan
03-16-2006, 10:49 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

So addition by subtraction?

BTW, I never said that losing these guys wasn't a good thing (I don't think that, but its not part of my argument) - I'm saying we didn't get fair value for them.

Heck, from what I hear Miami was looking to get Schaub and was willing to give up a 2nd rounder AND a player. Of course they were happy to find that the Vikings wanted just a 2nd rounder for a proven starter.

Losing Pepp given his dispute with management may have been the best available move (it may not have been as well), but we didn't get value for him.

This leads me back to my original point - this ownership group since coming in has overhauled the whole team and left in a state beyond all recognition.

Recognizable maybe not to you, but for some of us we recognize that this is a good thing.

We did not overhaul the whole team...just our QB.

Del Rio
03-16-2006, 10:52 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

So addition by subtraction?

BTW, I never said that losing these guys wasn't a good thing (I don't think that, but its not part of my argument) - I'm saying we didn't get fair value for them.

Heck, from what I hear Miami was looking to get Schaub and was willing to give up a 2nd rounder AND a player. Of course they were happy to find that the Vikings wanted just a 2nd rounder for a proven starter.

Losing Pepp given his dispute with management may have been the best available move (it may not have been as well), but we didn't get value for him.

This leads me back to my original point - this ownership group since coming in has overhauled the whole team and left in a state beyond all recognition.

If all your arguing is we didn't get fair value then you might as well stop there.

What is fair?

Ever since Free agency began the value of trades has dropped. Why would you sell the farm for a guy, when in a few years he will be a free agent?

Fair is a relative term that the definition of resides in your mind. If you are a fanboy of Moss or Culpepper then I guess your idea of Fair, is not going to be the same as someone elses idea of fair.

So for you to say "You have to admit we didn't get fair value" is kind of funny. That's like saying you have to admit we didn't get what I think we should have.

Well yes nfl-forums I guess I do have to agree since you say you don't think we got fair value. I do admit we didn't get what YOU think we should have.

Prophet
03-16-2006, 10:53 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

Interesting responses. Besides being compared to a 'fish wife', it was pretty entertaining to read the responses. Good stuff.

A few points:

1. Loney. In the NFL he is recognized as one of the best O-Line coaches in the league. Last year was bad, but he was also wearing two big hats, dealing with a ton of injuries, and had what amounts to 3rd string players starting. Considering all that, he actually did pretty good given his situation. I have yet to hear any reasonable argument to tell me that our new O-Line coaches are going to work out better. Anyone know anything about them to give me some reason to think they are better than an O-line coach of several years like Loney?

Loney. Tice should have stayed the O-line coach and Redneck should have looked for a reasonable head coach as Tice's replacement after filling in as the interim when Denny walked. Loney joined up with Denny in Zona, we'll see how he does. I'm not sure how the new 0-line coaches will do, neither is anyone else, so how am I going to develop a convincing argument on unknowns, I'm not sure so I won't.


2. Focusing on the Past. My point is simple: in the past few years the Vikings have been an embarrassement in the way that they have been run. Losing Moss and Pepp for the compensation we received is unacceptable. Again, I challenge anyone to tell me that we got equal value for two of the best players in the league. So far no one has tried to make this argument which leads me to believe that everyone pretty much agrees that we got hosed out of two of the best players in the league.

The main reason the Vikings have been an embarrassment the past few years was due to coaching and the trickle down effect. Tice could beat teams that weren't that good based on raw talent and coaching 101 skills. When the game was close and ended up being a chess match between coaching staffs or HCs Tice lost. It's like beating your five year old son in chess.

The two best players in the league? Good one. Moss is one of the top receivers in the league and Culpepper was ranked up in the top-tier of active QBs too before his injury.

The Moss trade was done during Redneck's era and I don't know all the details other than there were more acquisitions from the Moss trade then Napoleon Harris. A lot of coinage was available to sign other folks that someone else can list if they feel like it. Most fans realize now that the head-case problems were more related to Culpepper than Moss.

The Daunte trade has been discussed ad nausem in hundreds of threads in this forum. No point in rehashing that one. Bottom-line is that they got current market-value for him. If they would have paid him the bonus and when he obviously didn't want to be here why do you think he would have been worth more in '07? The only way that would be true is if he played in '06 and I would sure hope the new coaches on the team wouldn't have played him. The alternate argument about him honoring his contract if he wasn't traded or released is transparent. Just like the apologies he released today.

Personally, I am thrilled that both of them are gone. Moss and Culpepper, both for their attitudes and dedication to the Vikings. Two players are gone that some people worshipped. Doesn't bother me for a second.


3. Tradding Pepp. Here's the real scoop - it did not need to be done. He was under contract and publicly stated that if he was not released or traded that he would play in 2006. We could have kept him under contract, told him that he will be released or traded next year, and this year to work hard to raise his value.

That's a scoop? Come on. Of course, the options were to trade him, cut him, or sign him. He wanted out. Is it worth having a cancer on your team just to raise his value? Play people with the drive and determination that want to be there. Start building the team with leaders that buy into the system. He didn't.


4. Spending money. I have said numerous times that we don't have to spend money to have a good free agency. But, there is no reason that we should leave free agency and look back saying that we weren't the team that made the most improvements. So far since FA we have arguably upgraded these spots: RB, K, LB, and OL. Some of those might be draws, some of those are definitely upgrades. Oh, and we lost big time at QB.

There is a reason that the Vikings have a bunch of money in the cap and other teams don't. Parly due to a residual effect from Redneck and partly due to cap management. There was no loss at QB, the game isn't done yet. Daunte did not want to be here. He is a head case that needed his ego stroked and the new boys in town weren't going to do it, especially since he showed no inititative in meeting with Childress and learning the new system. The FA is five days old and the draft hasn't even happened yet. Many teams would love to be in this position. There will be people available, the QB issue will be resolved. A complete moronunderstands that BJ isn't the long-term solution. Of course they are looking at scenarios to address that issue.


5. Coaching. Again, I have said numerous times that I do not think Childress is going to be a bad coach. However, I do think that with an entirely new staff of rookie coaches that there will be places that we suffer. Personally, I think Childress was the best pickup out there, but the overhauls that we made in the coaching staff leaves a giant question mark.

There isn't a team in the league without question marks in their coaching staff. The main thing is if the team buys into the coaches and their philosophy. If they do it will probably work. If the don't (Daunte) it can not possibly work. The new coaching staff is exciting just for the simple fact that the Vikings had the worse coaching staff in the league, with the possible exception of the Saints, and the new coaching staff brings more experience to the table then you give them credit for. They worked their way up through the ranks sequentially in all cases that I am aware of. It's not like they took an o-line coach and tossed them in as HC without ever being a coordinator....I heard that has happened to a team before.


6. Negativity. I am sorry if you don't like the negativity. I'll be the first person to tell myself "I told you so" if I'm wrong. The negativity is my frustration from what I see happening with our very young and inexperienced administration. Again, if anyone can tell me that even with the cap space we gained in jettisoning Moss and Culpepper that we actually came out ahead in the deal, I'll be all ears. So far I've seen no reason to believe that we are the ones who got the better end of the deals.

Enjoy your negativity. I'm on the optimistic boat, and it is not blind optimism. Like I said earlier, if any team member does not buy into the system, especially if they are supposed to be a leader, let them walk. Regardless of their supposed heroism. The team members need to be exactly that, no individual player is bigger then the organization.

Del Rio
03-16-2006, 11:00 PM
Here's something kind of cool about taking things at face value.

http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/common_cents/index.html

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 11:04 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

So addition by subtraction?

BTW, I never said that losing these guys wasn't a good thing (I don't think that, but its not part of my argument) - I'm saying we didn't get fair value for them.

Heck, from what I hear Miami was looking to get Schaub and was willing to give up a 2nd rounder AND a player. Of course they were happy to find that the Vikings wanted just a 2nd rounder for a proven starter.

Losing Pepp given his dispute with management may have been the best available move (it may not have been as well), but we didn't get value for him.

This leads me back to my original point - this ownership group since coming in has overhauled the whole team and left in a state beyond all recognition.

If all your arguing is we didn't get fair value then you might as well stop there.

What is fair?

Ever since Free agency began the value of trades has dropped. Why would you sell the farm for a guy, when in a few years he will be a free agent?

Fair is a relative term that the definition of resides in your mind. If you are a fanboy of Moss or Culpepper then I guess your idea of Fair, is not going to be the same as someone elses idea of fair.

So for you to say "You have to admit we didn't get fair value" is kind of funny. That's like saying you have to admit we didn't get what I think we should have.

Well yes nfl-forums I guess I do have to agree since you say you don't think we got fair value. I do admit we didn't get what YOU think we should have.

Well this is going down a road to subjectivism, which is a road I don't like to travel (to me it isn't pretty :lol:)

Objectively speaking as we look at the talent these two players have, we can't say that we got equal value. I'm not talking chemistry, I'm not talking saving cap room, I'm talking trade value.

When you trade something you look to get equal value. Atlanta wouldn't talk to Miami unless it involved a 2nd rounder AND a player. You telling me that talent-wise Culpepper is less valuable than Schaub?

Objectively speaking when we look at these players, what we got in return does not match what their market value should have been. We sold the stock at a low point!

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 11:06 PM
Prophet,

Good post - a little too long for me to respond. Its 3:00 now and I haven't gotten my work done for the day. :(

Its nice to hear a different opinion than the one in my head. :)

Prophet
03-16-2006, 11:09 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

..., what we got in return does not match what their market value should have been. We sold the stock at a low point!

Or your perception of market value is not what the market value dictates.

I'll agree that the stock was sold at a low-point. But I disagree that it would have risen much unless he played. He showed no initiative in learning the system and said he wanted out. Any coach would be a fool to give a person like that the keys to the vehicle.

Bad situation, it's over.

Del Rio
03-16-2006, 11:09 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

So addition by subtraction?

BTW, I never said that losing these guys wasn't a good thing (I don't think that, but its not part of my argument) - I'm saying we didn't get fair value for them.

Heck, from what I hear Miami was looking to get Schaub and was willing to give up a 2nd rounder AND a player. Of course they were happy to find that the Vikings wanted just a 2nd rounder for a proven starter.

Losing Pepp given his dispute with management may have been the best available move (it may not have been as well), but we didn't get value for him.

This leads me back to my original point - this ownership group since coming in has overhauled the whole team and left in a state beyond all recognition.

If all your arguing is we didn't get fair value then you might as well stop there.

What is fair?

Ever since Free agency began the value of trades has dropped. Why would you sell the farm for a guy, when in a few years he will be a free agent?

Fair is a relative term that the definition of resides in your mind. If you are a fanboy of Moss or Culpepper then I guess your idea of Fair, is not going to be the same as someone elses idea of fair.

So for you to say "You have to admit we didn't get fair value" is kind of funny. That's like saying you have to admit we didn't get what I think we should have.

Well yes nfl-forums I guess I do have to agree since you say you don't think we got fair value. I do admit we didn't get what YOU think we should have.

Well this is going down a road to subjectivism, which is a road I don't like to travel (to me it isn't pretty :lol:)

Objectively speaking as we look at the talent these two players have, we can't say that we got equal value. I'm not talking chemistry, I'm not talking saving cap room, I'm talking trade value.

When you trade something you look to get equal value. Atlanta wouldn't talk to Miami unless it involved a 2nd rounder AND a player. You telling me that talent-wise Culpepper is less valuable than Schaub?

Objectively speaking when we look at these players, what we got in return does not match what their market value should have been. We sold the stock at a low point!

Yes and if we were trading marbles then it would apply. However we are building a football team, so you can't blindly turn aside the more in depth factors.

You play to win the game, if you trade two grade A players for 3 Grade B players and it helps you win more of your games you succeed.

If you are trading marbles then I guess your right. I won't be trading my two steelies for your cats eye....

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 11:15 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

You play to win the game, if you trade two grade A players for 3 Grade B players and it helps you win more of your games you succeed.

If you are trading marbles then I guess your right. I won't be trading my two steelies for your cats eye....

Right, but if you could have gotten 5 grade B players, or 2 Grade B players and an A- player, then you didn't get value.

**THE MATH IS OBVIOUS!!!*** :???:

BTW...how did you know my cats eye was on the trading block?

whackthepack
03-16-2006, 11:42 PM
"DCPologirl" wrote:

what does Fubaring mean? ;lol


FUBR

F*cked up beyond recognition!

olson_10
03-16-2006, 11:45 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.
2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.
3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.
4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.
5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?
6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.
7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.
8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.
9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.
randy moss trade - red dumped him to screw us over, and daunte begged for red to do it as well

culpepper trade - you are clearly another person that has yet to read that the vikings sent daunte a laptop full of the WCO offense to study..when the vikings got the computer back, they realized it had never even been opened..daunte didnt want to come back to minnesota for anything other than getting more money..we were never ever ever ever ever ever trading him in the first place, because we wouldve taken one of the many great deals involving pro bowl players and 1st round picks when they were on the table..daunte forced his way out, we got a 2nd round pick, get over it, and find something else to talk about

firing tice - mike made a lot of bad decisions here regardless of whether or not he was given a fair chance..the guy screwed us up in some important situations, and never shouldve been at the head of this team in the first place..an excellent assistant coach anywhere in the league, but a bad head coach

lowballing burleson - when his own agent says "we are making progress and we are glad the vikings tendered him" im pretty sure nobody thinks he is getting "lowballed"..read up on these things before throwing insults when nate himself doesnt even see this as "lowballing"

bad free agency - how has it been bad? have you seen chester taylor play? do you have the inside psychic look on the outcome of his future here? you do know that most all of the star RB's in the NFL were backups at one point in their career right?..ryan longwell, already among the leagues best kickers moves indoors for the season, must be another bad one there..ben leber, played the system, and had success in it in his first 2 nfl seasons, and has alot of potential..you need to realize that by signing hutchinson, we dont have enough money left over to sign brees for 10 mil a year including a bonus, and that also goes for people like peterson and arrington, who dont fit our system anyways..you want peterson to play where? DE? he is only effective in a 3-4 as a pass rushing LB off the edge, and he just came off of a recent achilles injury, id rather not overpay for that..arrington wouldnt sign for any less than he was making in washington, heck he would probably demand alot more money than he was making there, so he would also be overly expensive

coaching hires - steve loney is gone..who cares?..we brought in some young coaches with very impressive resume's, that came from highly successful systems..i know brett favre has stunk as of late, but i love the thought of having a QB coach that got to be around him for the last couple of years as our offensive co-ordinator..mike tomlin, probably one of the best future coaching prospects, comes over after learning under guys who put together one of the best defenses in league history in TB..head coach Brad Childress, came from Andy Reid's systems where they had success even before TO ever got there..always one of the top teams in the league with an offense that had no better than a decent RB, and absolutely no receivers whatsoever

triangle of authority - everytime a team gives a name to something it fails? so when the steelers called themselves the "steel curtain" or the vikings called themselves the "purple people eaters" i guess that means they failed? uhhh no..running things this way is much better than scrambling around and having numerous people trying to speak up over the others in the organization

all rookie coaching staff - all highly sought after guys that worked under brilliant people..bevell worked with brett favre for years (one of the best QBs in history in case you forgot)..tomlin worked in one of history's best defenses..childress worked under a head coach that took his team to the NFC conference championship game 4 times in a row..what do you want from these guys?

losing free agents - you can only schedule so many visits in one day, and with the time we took to get hutch, jackson and demps signed elsewhere before getting here..they were both scheduled, and both wouldve been offered contracts, but neither one wanted to be here enough to make their visit before signing with other teams..can you really blame jackson for signing with the bengals?..lavar and peterson cant play in our system..its not always about picking up the biggest names, because how many teams that go on a huge spending spree that offseason ever win a championship? nobody..you find guys that can play disciplined football in your system

we still have the draft and the rest of free agency to fill voids..lets actually start getting behind our team here rather than all bashing it and critisizing everything that is done..wait to see our on field performance before passing judgement because i know everybody is going to come on this site when we are 11-5 and say "i knew it all along" when they were saying before the season started "man our management is so dumb"

olson_10
03-16-2006, 11:47 PM
"Prophet" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

..., what we got in return does not match what their market value should have been. We sold the stock at a low point!

Or your perception of market value is not what the market value dictates.

I'll agree that the stock was sold at a low-point. But I disagree that it would have risen much unless he played. He showed no initiative in learning the system and said he wanted out. Any coach would be a fool to give a person like that the keys to the vehicle.

Bad situation, it's over.
untrue..we didnt sell the stock with daunte when it was high, because he wasnt available when those nice offers came in for him..think people!..if he was really available, we would have another first rounder and chris mcallister on this team

nfl-forums
03-16-2006, 11:51 PM
I won't address everything you said (off in the distance a sound of great cheering can be heard), but not everything I am saying is negative.

I had not read that about Daunte, BTW. Where is the source on that...I'd be interested in it.

Prophet
03-16-2006, 11:57 PM
"olson_10" wrote:

"Prophet" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

..., what we got in return does not match what their market value should have been. We sold the stock at a low point!

Or your perception of market value is not what the market value dictates.

I'll agree that the stock was sold at a low-point. But I disagree that it would have risen much unless he played. He showed no initiative in learning the system and said he wanted out. Any coach would be a fool to give a person like that the keys to the vehicle.

Bad situation, it's over.
untrue..we didnt sell the stock with daunte when it was high, because he wasnt available when those nice offers came in for him..think people!..if he was really available, we would have another first rounder and chris mcallister on this team

The comment was that the stock was sold at a low-point. It was. Of course he was worth more at a different point. That's the whole point. I need a Point beer after those sentences.

nfl-forums
03-17-2006, 12:03 AM
:beer5: :occasion5: :occasion5:

Del Rio
03-17-2006, 12:24 AM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

You play to win the game, if you trade two grade A players for 3 Grade B players and it helps you win more of your games you succeed.

If you are trading marbles then I guess your right. I won't be trading my two steelies for your cats eye....

Right, but if you could have gotten 5 grade B players, or 2 Grade B players and an A- player, then you didn't get value.

**THE MATH IS OBVIOUS!!!*** :???:

BTW...how did you know my cats eye was on the trading block?

Now your just being greedy.

in sports the ends justify the means. End of story

ultravikingfan
03-17-2006, 12:26 AM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

You play to win the game, if you trade two grade A players for 3 Grade B players and it helps you win more of your games you succeed.

If you are trading marbles then I guess your right. I won't be trading my two steelies for your cats eye....

Right, but if you could have gotten 5 grade B players, or 2 Grade B players and an A- player, then you didn't get value.

**THE MATH IS OBVIOUS!!!*** :???:

BTW...how did you know my cats eye was on the trading block?

How about this math:

1 whiner QB - 1 whiner QB = better team cohesion

This is what I call **obvious math** http://www.smilies-and-more.de/pics/smilies/confused/038.gif

collegeguyjeff
03-17-2006, 12:52 AM
1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.

and what does this have to do with now? or the new ownership? where do you get your "facts" and figures from?

randy moss got into so much trouble he made the team and state look bad, on the field and off the field. no player is expendable. and none of us know everything he was doing in the locker room, or out of the locker room.


2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.


im glad daunte is gone he never did jack squat for this team and he always blew it in the playoffs. heck even jeff george did a better job than daunte and brad johnson also and look at how old they are. daunte is just a stupid punk who tried to take advantage of the team by getting more money when he knows his career could be over.


3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.

tice already had 4 years to put a team together, thats plenty enough time and tice still couldn't make the playoffs. what should wilf have done given tice 4 more years to make us look stupid, scalp tickets too? is that the kind of person you want representing your football team?


4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.


has it ever occured to you that the team don't want burelson and we just did that so a team will grab him cheap and we will get a 3rd round pick for him?


5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?

well i guess it's a good thing it doesn't matter what you think now huh. first off you probably never watched leber or taylor play. im sure the coaching staff has a way better idea of who to pick than you do so don't even think you know what you are talking about. oh and DON'T GRAB PLAYERS BASED ON PAY AND POPULARITY!! has it ever occured to you that the redskins have done this the past 5 years and they have gone nowhere.


6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.

how do you know they are nobodys? are you vince lombardi and you are just some "football genius"? i think we have some damn fine coaches and i expect some big things.


7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.

your ideas are so annoying, you must be a packers fan trying to trash talk us. well anyways if the triangle don't work and it's going to fail why has wilf used it as a business model for his career and why is he a multi billionaire? i hardly consider that a failure.


8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.


oh no we don't have any 60 year old coaches on our team who wear diapers. our coaches are going to be a bunch of tices now. well listen to this, first off if these coaches arn't any good why did other teams want them? why are about 3 of them considered the best coach pickups by espn?


9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?

who cares about demps and jackson, they arn't that good and your crying because we didn't grab them? but you can cry cause we don't have edge, witherspoon, or peterson? what a fool im glad i ain't related to you cause i'd feel like a jack ass. chavous sucks, brian williams just had a good year cause it's contract year. smoot and winfield and sharper can handle the secondary, heck they were the secondary last year even with sucky chavous in there.


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

what he is probably trying to say is the draft is a crap shoot, you can have the first pick in the draft and that don't mean the player is going to be any good. teams have to know how to find talent.


All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

were only going to win 5 games? now i know your dumb are you from wisconsin, especially the osh kosh area?

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.[/quote]

and you obviously don't know anything your talking about.

and to top it off i never knew anyone could post something this dumb

collegeguyjeff
03-17-2006, 12:57 AM
"olson_10" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.
2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.
3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.
4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.
5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?
6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.
7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.
8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.
9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.
randy moss trade - red dumped him to screw us over, and daunte begged for red to do it as well

culpepper trade - you are clearly another person that has yet to read that the vikings sent daunte a laptop full of the WCO offense to study..when the vikings got the computer back, they realized it had never even been opened..daunte didnt want to come back to minnesota for anything other than getting more money..we were never ever ever ever ever ever trading him in the first place, because we wouldve taken one of the many great deals involving pro bowl players and 1st round picks when they were on the table..daunte forced his way out, we got a 2nd round pick, get over it, and find something else to talk about

firing tice - mike made a lot of bad decisions here regardless of whether or not he was given a fair chance..the guy screwed us up in some important situations, and never shouldve been at the head of this team in the first place..an excellent assistant coach anywhere in the league, but a bad head coach

lowballing burleson - when his own agent says "we are making progress and we are glad the vikings tendered him" im pretty sure nobody thinks he is getting "lowballed"..read up on these things before throwing insults when nate himself doesnt even see this as "lowballing"

bad free agency - how has it been bad? have you seen chester taylor play? do you have the inside psychic look on the outcome of his future here? you do know that most all of the star RB's in the NFL were backups at one point in their career right?..ryan longwell, already among the leagues best kickers moves indoors for the season, must be another bad one there..ben leber, played the system, and had success in it in his first 2 nfl seasons, and has alot of potential..you need to realize that by signing hutchinson, we dont have enough money left over to sign brees for 10 mil a year including a bonus, and that also goes for people like peterson and arrington, who dont fit our system anyways..you want peterson to play where? DE? he is only effective in a 3-4 as a pass rushing LB off the edge, and he just came off of a recent achilles injury, id rather not overpay for that..arrington wouldnt sign for any less than he was making in washington, heck he would probably demand alot more money than he was making there, so he would also be overly expensive

coaching hires - steve loney is gone..who cares?..we brought in some young coaches with very impressive resume's, that came from highly successful systems..i know brett favre has stunk as of late, but i love the thought of having a QB coach that got to be around him for the last couple of years as our offensive co-ordinator..mike tomlin, probably one of the best future coaching prospects, comes over after learning under guys who put together one of the best defenses in league history in TB..head coach Brad Childress, came from Andy Reid's systems where they had success even before TO ever got there..always one of the top teams in the league with an offense that had no better than a decent RB, and absolutely no receivers whatsoever

triangle of authority - everytime a team gives a name to something it fails? so when the steelers called themselves the "steel curtain" or the vikings called themselves the "purple people eaters" i guess that means they failed? uhhh no..running things this way is much better than scrambling around and having numerous people trying to speak up over the others in the organization

all rookie coaching staff - all highly sought after guys that worked under brilliant people..bevell worked with brett favre for years (one of the best QBs in history in case you forgot)..tomlin worked in one of history's best defenses..childress worked under a head coach that took his team to the NFC conference championship game 4 times in a row..what do you want from these guys?

losing free agents - you can only schedule so many visits in one day, and with the time we took to get hutch, jackson and demps signed elsewhere before getting here..they were both scheduled, and both wouldve been offered contracts, but neither one wanted to be here enough to make their visit before signing with other teams..can you really blame jackson for signing with the bengals?..lavar and peterson cant play in our system..its not always about picking up the biggest names, because how many teams that go on a huge spending spree that offseason ever win a championship? nobody..you find guys that can play disciplined football in your system

we still have the draft and the rest of free agency to fill voids..lets actually start getting behind our team here rather than all bashing it and critisizing everything that is done..wait to see our on field performance before passing judgement because i know everybody is going to come on this site when we are 11-5 and say "i knew it all along" when they were saying before the season started "man our management is so dumb"

good post i know your a true vikings fan.

cajunvike
03-17-2006, 01:01 AM
collegeguyjeff....don't you mean that ANY (or EVERY) player is potentially expendable (see definition b below):

Main Entry: 1ex·pend·able
Pronunciation: ik-'spen-d&-b&l
Function: adjective
: that may be expended : as a : normally used up or consumed in service <expendable supplies like pencils and paper> b : more easily or economically replaced than rescued, salvaged, or protected
- ex·pend·abil·i·ty /-"spen-d&-'bi-l&-tE/ noun

Didn't they teach you that at Fisher-Price College? :razz:

nfl-forums
03-17-2006, 01:03 AM
collegejeffguy,

If you read my posts, I don't think Taylor is a bad pickup - I've said the opposite. I think Childress and Tomline are great pickups, and I've admitted that these are just my opinions. Some of it is conjecture for the point of ranting, other parts are things that I have noticed. But, as you so eloquently pointed out, I'm not Vince Lombardi...or am I... ;)

Ease up a little...it was thrown out there as my opinion. I run websites for a living, I don't run football teams. Then again, most of us don't, but we have no problem commenting on the game - its the point of having forums to talk about this stuff.

That being said, I admire your optimism. I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong when the season comes around.

Prophet
03-17-2006, 01:13 AM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

collegejeffguy,

If you read my posts, I don't think Taylor is a bad pickup - I've said the opposite. I think Childress and Tomline are great pickups, and I've admitted that these are just my opinions. Some of it is conjecture for the point of ranting, other parts are things that I have noticed. But, as you so eloquently pointed out, I'm not Vince Lombardi...or am I... ;)

Ease up a little...it was thrown out there as my opinion. I run websites for a living, I don't run football teams. Then again, most of us don't, but we have no problem commenting on the game - its the point of having forums to talk about this stuff.

That being said, I admire your optimism. I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong when the season comes around.

Wow, I think that's the nices rebuttal I've ever heard to one of collegejeffguy's posts. lmao.

cajunvike
03-17-2006, 01:21 AM
"Prophet" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

collegejeffguy,

If you read my posts, I don't think Taylor is a bad pickup - I've said the opposite. I think Childress and Tomline are great pickups, and I've admitted that these are just my opinions. Some of it is conjecture for the point of ranting, other parts are things that I have noticed. But, as you so eloquently pointed out, I'm not Vince Lombardi...or am I... ;)

Ease up a little...it was thrown out there as my opinion. I run websites for a living, I don't run football teams. Then again, most of us don't, but we have no problem commenting on the game - its the point of having forums to talk about this stuff.

That being said, I admire your optimism. I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong when the season comes around.

Wow, I think that's the nices rebuttal I've ever heard to one of collegejeffguy's posts. lmao.

I will give him that...but let's see if he can handle a steady stream of CGJ's posts with the same patience and aplomb...time will tell!!! :lol:

Sheik
03-17-2006, 02:35 AM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.
2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.
3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.
4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.
5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?
6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.
7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.
8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.
9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.

I salute you. Your message is refreshing, intelligent, and correct (in my opinon of course). So much so, that it compelled me to join and add in some thoughts. Given what I observe here, my thoughts will almost certainly be received poorly, but we'll see.

To me, the today's Vikings are not really the Vikings. They are a bunch of newbs in Vikings uniforms. I knew and loved the Vikings from the '98-'04 era. I know that'll rile a particular member or ten up, and I'll be criticized for not being a "true fan", but that's a fact. I'm not going to try to cover it up. Sure, I was a fan prior to then, and I am heavily against people who jump on the bandwagon of another team--but there's nothing wrong with jumping on and off THIS bandwagon. And I'm off right now.

Why do we watch or discuss football? Because we're required to? Because we must support our troops through thick and thin? Of course not. People lose sight of the real reason . . . it's FUN. And guess what? The '98 to '04 era was fun. Even the dismal '01 and '02 seasons had there moments. Now, that's not to say that winning isn't important. And THAT's not to say that the '98-'04 Vikings were losers. Not at all. Depending on your definition of a "legitimate contender", one could argue that we were legitimate SB contenders in '98, '99, '00, '03, and '04.

Did you honestly prefer what we saw last year? Our painfully mediocre mess of a team that I couldn't even bear to watch? There was no excitement. Little 3 yard hitch patterns lack excitement. It was awful. "But we won 5 games in a row!!111111"--Packers, Rams, Lions, Lions, Giants (you know it was a fluke). Could it possibly have been because it was the weakest part of our schedule? Exactly. We were no better off with Brad, but much like the year before, playing without our star gave our dishillusioned staff a false sense of security.

The Vikings were blessed. We had a solid foundation. Tice and co. lived off of talent from the Denny Green era. That talent has run dry. We have set ourselves up for many years of mediocrity. Yes. We were blessed with security at the QB position (hell, more than security, Culpepper was the second best QB in the league) and an amazing talent that single handedly ensured a top 10 offense year in and year out. Fun to watch and always in contention.

Now we have been relegated to a position of uncertainty. We join the group of hopeless teams searching for a decent QB year in and year out. They don't come often. We'll be stuck with shitty rookie/2nd year QBs, or 38 year old has beens for years. Unless we get extremely lucky that is . . . and without Denny's knack for spoting talent, I wouldn't count on it.

Just so we realize, Brad is older than Favre. I think we tend to forget that. Older and much less talented. He's lost his arm strength. And he has cement shoes. In the NFL today, you need a QB who can move (Peyton Manning is the obvious exception). Brad just sits there helplessly and gets sacked. I don't care what you say. You CANNOT just dink and dunk it down the field. It NEVER works. Something will go wrong (int, fumble, holding). You need to have big plays. We don't have that luxury anymore.

Our Offense is now devoid of playmakers. Troy Williamson? He'll be alright, but definitley no all-pro. Koren Robinson? He has his uses, but he is a bit lacking as a straight up receiver. Our QB position has become awful. Our once robust backfield is now sparse and limited. And if you think the gains our defense has made are sufficient and that they'll be able to "carry" the team, well, I completely disagree with you.

Oh, and our off-season has sucked, but I'm not overly disappointed with that. You improve mostly through the draft anyway. And if we end up as bad (or mediocre) as I think we'll be, we'll be doing plenty of improving through the draft.

I have a lot more to say, but I'll hold it in for now.

6-KINGS
03-17-2006, 02:50 AM
"DCPologirl" wrote:

what does Fubaring mean? ;lol

It's what is used when a person is constipated.

Sort of a crowbar for the colon.

romanswinter
03-17-2006, 02:51 AM
Wow! I couldnt disagree with the OP more. This new organization is doing ALL the right things to have a succesful franchise. Tice, as much as I loved the guy for being who he was, is not a great coach. He doesnt set an example for the rest of the team, (or maybe he does.... ticket scalping - love boat?) he doesnt have the respect of the team that a coach should have. Tice always tried to be like one of the players, this is now how a could should be. He was never a strong enough guy to stand up to managment and say "hey you want me to coach this team then give me some control of FU*K off". No instead he was grateful for just having a HC job and did what he could do.
Getting rid of DC was another great move. It's time this organization stopped spinning its wheels in the Dennis Green era. It's time to move on. DC is a Dennis Green QB. As much as I love Denny, he didnt bring us a Superbowl. His ideas for how a championship team are built and play never materialized. We have since felt the effects of green, with consistant bad defense and an offense that is supposed to be high powered. This new organization is starting anew, with a new blueprint for this team. They have a crapload of talent on the roster, and they feel they got the right man for the job in coaching this talent to some major victories.

As far as Free Agency goes, I think Washington is proof enough that signing the most expensive free agents doesnt always work. Plus FA isnt over yet, the vikes are certainly going to adress further issues and needs. Its not like the season is starting tomorrow.

vegasvike
03-17-2006, 03:03 AM
Man I hope I dont regret asking this but what the f##k is FUBAR?

MaddenVodkaAddict
03-17-2006, 03:07 AM
"vegasvike" wrote:

Man I hope I dont asking this but what the f##k is FUBAR?

what the f##k, that sentence was a trainwreck! jk, I don't know what FUBAR means either.

Del Rio
03-17-2006, 03:08 AM
Fooked Up Beyond All Recognition

*edit* oops.....*looks around....excellent a word not in the filter*

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

MaddenVodkaAddict
03-17-2006, 03:10 AM
"vegasvike" wrote:

Man I hope I dont regret asking this but what the f##k is FUBAR?

Much better work. Your sentence was awesome and easy to comprehend. However, there should've been a comma after "Man" and "this" and there should have been an apostrophe in "dont".

mattjenny3
03-17-2006, 03:17 AM
You lose all credibility when you make comments like you did in #5. If you think we need someone with a name, than you don't know anything about football. Oh wait, I think Rice is available... :???:

Jarlvik2006
03-17-2006, 04:39 AM
First of all, thank you to nfl-forums for finally getting me to respond to a topic after watching in the shadows for almost three years. Your post was very articulate and controversial, although I think it was somewhat antagonistic in title (FUBAR).
Throughout Viking history several questionable moves have been made. I cannot find anything in the most recent moves which constitutes FUBAR. The league itself promotes these types of changes. As much as I liked the idea of the Moss-Culpepper-Bennett-Tice plan, it didn't work. Time to move forward! I won't rehash your post point by point (that has been already been done quite capably by what I will respectfully call the "BOARD OF DIRECTORS", but will offer this observation:
I think we should consider and celebrate the fact that we have a new owner with a clearly defined plan. It shows focus. I have followed Childress, Bevell, and to a lesser extent, Tomlins' careers and really do believe that they will provide far better than "a few years of rough times".
The current " Triangle of Authority" is charged with the enormous task of turning this "Loveboat" around and fast. Most of us would agree that the team needs a new state-of-the-art facility and given the most recent negative events, dating back as far as the numerous DUI's, Moss' escapades, assault charges, drug charges, and MISDEMEANOR incident on Minnetonka, we need to put a little more "shine on the apple"- ie. clean house. TEAM CHEMISTRY is the ANSWER!. The only way that the "holier than thou" attitiude that runs rampant in MN government will be satisfied is if things become more "publicly palatable". Zyqi is an astute businessman with a very expensive long term solution. He is defintely no Red McCombs! Red was a parasite, Wilf is NOT. Of course he is looking for profit. Who isn't (honestly). This isn't a charity organization- just as k Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones. The big difference is, Wilf's (Childress, Tomlin, et al) plan will benefit ALL of us, not just the McCombs family.
I believe they're sincere in their efforts to improve the team are are looking at who can work within the new "business plan".
The same goes for the new uniforms (I would love to see more graphic examples and would be particularily interested in a version that includes the current helmet design with a "Broncos" type pattern-purple main color with gold where the Broncos have their "orange"- not a big fan of dark pants). It causes all of us to go out and buy new stuff which SUPPORTS the entire TEAM.
I think there are some quality guys we could use from the draft (Greenway or Sims, J Allen, maybe even Jacobs). Can't spend it all on free agency (what has anyone heard about Runyan?).
Sorry to rant on my first post- I warned everyone in my "Free Beers" introduction. SKOL VIKES! :cheers:

DarrinNelsonguy
03-17-2006, 04:44 AM
"Jarlvik2006" wrote:

First of all, thank you to nfl-forums for finally getting me to respond to a topic after watching in the shadows for almost three years. Your post was very articulate and controversial, although I think it was somewhat antagonistic in title (FUBAR).
Throughout Viking history several questionable moves have been made. I cannot find anything in the most recent moves which constitutes FUBAR. The league itself promotes these types of changes. As much as I liked the idea of the Moss-Culpepper-Bennett-Tice plan, it didn't work. Time to move forward! I won't rehash your post point by point (that has been already been done quite capably by what I will respectfully call the "BOARD OF DIRECTORS", but will offer this observation:
I think we should consider and celebrate the fact that we have a new owner with a clearly defined plan. It shows focus. I have followed Childress, Bevell, and to a lesser extent, Tomlins' careers and really do believe that they will provide far better than "a few years of rough times".
The current " Triangle of Authority" is charged with the enormous task of turning this "Loveboat" around and fast. Most of us would agree that the team needs a new state-of-the-art facility and given the most recent negative events, dating back as far as the numerous DUI's, Moss' escapades, assault charges, drug charges, and MISDEMEANOR incident on Minnetonka, we need to put a little more "shine on the apple"- ie. clean house. TEAM CHEMISTRY is the ANSWER!. The only way that the "holier than thou" attitiude that runs rampant in MN government will be satisfied is if things become more "publicly palatable". Zyqi is an astute businessman with a very expensive long term solution. He is defintely no Red McCombs! Red was a parasite, Wilf is NOT. Of course he is looking for profit. Who isn't (honestly). This isn't a charity organization- just as k Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones. The big difference is, Wilf's (Childress, Tomlin, et al) plan will benefit ALL of us, not just the McCombs family.
I believe they're sincere in their efforts to improve the team are are looking at who can work within the new "business plan".
The same goes for the new uniforms (I would love to see more graphic examples and would be particularily interested in a version that includes the current helmet design with a "Broncos" type pattern-purple main color with gold where the Broncos have their "orange"- not a big fan of dark pants). It causes all of us to go out and buy new stuff which SUPPORTS the entire TEAM.
I think there are some quality guys we could use from the draft (Greenway or Sims, J Allen, maybe even Jacobs). Can't spend it all on free agency (what has anyone heard about Runyan?).
Sorry to rant on my first post- I warned everyone in my "Free Beers" introduction. SKOL VIKES! :cheers:

Right on Jarl, it is kind of like corporate re-organization. What I am most impressed with the new staff is that we ACTUALLY have a plan and we are not telling it to the whole league (i.e "The Randy Ratio").

modena11
03-17-2006, 05:12 AM
"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

good post i know your a true vikings fan.

please define true viking fan.

Ltrey33
03-17-2006, 05:13 AM
"modena11" wrote:

"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

good post i know your a true vikings fan.

please define true viking fan.

I'm pretty sure that was just colegeguy being a smartass.

DogPound
03-17-2006, 05:19 AM
I have been away so I am sure you all are sick of the Cpepp comments as I also am. Since I have not been able to voice my oppinion I hope you can bare with me as I say this regarding the Cpepp trade and such....
I don't understand why everyone's bitter about him leaving..I am a Cpepp fan and have posted plenty of times on here in his defense in the past. However he did not make things easy for the new owner ship and coaching staff by his actions. He clearly has bumped head with Childress and as far as asking for a bigger contract ...that took alot of balls. I could go on and on but I don't wanna sound like a broken record. Thanks guys and talk to you all again soon!

jaymz7
03-17-2006, 05:20 AM
"ltrey33" wrote:

"modena11" wrote:

"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

good post i know your a true vikings fan.

please define true viking fan.

I'm pretty sure that was just colegeguy being a smartass.

:thumbleft:

nfl-forums
03-17-2006, 06:14 AM
"mattjenny3" wrote:

You lose all credibility when you make comments like you did in #5. If you think we need someone with a name, than you don't know anything about football. Oh wait, I think Rice is available... :???:

Elsewhere you will see that I am not saying that we need a name. The point I was trying to make is that we are not going after the places that we have an apparent need and that with the money we do have, we should at least be able to get every single person in for at least a visit.

Personally, I'm glad we didn't sign Edge or another big name RB (although Alexander would have been cool). I did make this point throughout the thread, but I don't blame you for not reading the whole thing - there's a lot of text there.

nfl-forums
03-17-2006, 06:20 AM
"Jarlvik2006" wrote:

Sorry to rant on my first post- I warned everyone in my "Free Beers" introduction. SKOL VIKES! :cheers:

That, quite honestly, might be the best response I have heard to my post just yet.

I actually do agree with much of what you said. I will say that I think the next few years are going to be very tough, and I do think there is reason to question changing the entire schemes that we use, but overall your points are well taken.

At least you didn't try and accuse me of being a Packers fan. :roll:

mattjenny3
03-17-2006, 06:22 AM
Don't be so defensive, I can read what you wrote. You said you were upset we weren't getting names. CT is a great RB, will he work for us? I think so. You said you don't like Leber. Why? Give me a real reason. Please. I mean that for anyone here, I'm sincerely curious. Is there anything wrong with him as a player? I know he hurt his foot. Has anyone seen something to prove he's not a good player?

mattjenny3
03-17-2006, 06:24 AM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

"Jarlvik2006" wrote:

Sorry to rant on my first post- I warned everyone in my "Free Beers" introduction. SKOL VIKES! :cheers:

That, quite honestly, might be the best response I have heard to my post just yet.

I actually do agree with much of what you said. I will say that I think the next few years are going to be very tough, and I do think there is reason to question changing the entire schemes that we use, but overall your points are well taken.

At least you didn't try and accuse me of being a Packers fan. :roll:

Packer's fan :smile:

modena11
03-17-2006, 06:31 AM
"mattjenny3" wrote:

CT is a great RB, will he work for us? I think so.

i agree, i think taylor will work for us. but i don't think he is a great runningback. you have to be a starter to atleast be considered a great runningback. atleast run for 1500 to be considered great.

but here's to taylor becoming a great in a vikings uniform. he will get his opportunity.

nfl-forums
03-17-2006, 06:44 AM
"mattjenny3" wrote:

Don't be so defensive, I can read what you wrote. You said you were upset we weren't getting names. CT is a great RB, will he work for us? I think so. You said you don't like Leber. Why? Give me a real reason. Please. I mean that for anyone here, I'm sincerely curious. Is there anything wrong with him as a player? I know he hurt his foot. Has anyone seen something to prove he's not a good player?

Oh...what was I trying to say. I have stated elsewhere that I am not in favor of bringing in a name for the sake of the name - that's just stupid.

However, can anyone tell me that there were no players on the market with big names that are proven commodities? For example, Will Witherspoon is regarded by many to be a rising star in this league and to be an impact player. If not him, maybe we can look to a Dexter Jackson (not necessarily a big name) who is a stud in the Tampa 2, played under Tomlin, was scheduled for a visit, but we lost him to a snow storm. Tice had his troubles, but let's not forget how aggressive he was in getting someone like Winfield.

So no, I'm not saying bring in just any name because Madden rates them well. I am saying that there are legitimate, proven talents out there that we haven't even bothered to look at.

As far as Leber is concerned, I think he'll do fine as a linebacker. I am not overly impressed with the signing, though, as he is a backup linebacker for San Diego. I think he will be an upgrade for us, but I also think that someone like Will Witherspoon deserved a look.

Oh, and I'm not trying to be defensive - just trying to defend without offending. :cool:

nfl-forums
03-17-2006, 06:45 AM
"mattjenny3" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

"Jarlvik2006" wrote:

Sorry to rant on my first post- I warned everyone in my "Free Beers" introduction. SKOL VIKES! :cheers:

That, quite honestly, might be the best response I have heard to my post just yet.

I actually do agree with much of what you said. I will say that I think the next few years are going to be very tough, and I do think there is reason to question changing the entire schemes that we use, but overall your points are well taken.

At least you didn't try and accuse me of being a Packers fan. :roll:

Packer's fan :smile: :bootyshake:

whackthepack
03-17-2006, 07:16 AM
,"nfl-forums" wrote:

"mattjenny3" wrote:

You lose all credibility when you make comments like you did in #5. If you think we need someone with a name, than you don't know anything about football. Oh wait, I think Rice is available... :???:

Elsewhere you will see that I am not saying that we need a name. The point I was trying to make is that we are not going after the places that we have an apparent need and that with the money we do have, we should at least be able to get every single person in for at least a visit.

Personally, I'm glad we didn't sign Edge or another big name RB (although Alexander would have been cool). I did make this point throughout the thread, but I don't blame you for not reading the whole thing - there's a lot of text there.


The 4 biggest areas of need the Vikes had going to FA (in no particular order).
1. Linebacker
2. O-line
3. running back
4. Safety


1. Ben Leber, He lost his starting job to Shawne Merriman after he was hurt. Is good in coverage and going into his 5th year, he could be a very solid pickup.

2. Hutchinson, Vikings sign him to the biggest deal ever for a guard, he is considered the best guard in football right now, and he is young too!

3. Taylor, considered to be the 4th best back in FA from quite a few articles I read, with Jamal and Edge older and with more wear and tear I can see why the Vikes went for him.

4. Safety We had 2 of the top safeties available set to come in on the same day (the 3rd day of FA), and Twin Cities is hit with major winter storm. The meeting are delayed a day and we lose out on both.


QB, was an unknown because of C-pep. There is still 4 months and the rest of FA, and the draft to deal with it.

Kicker, we signed one of the most accurate kickers in NFL history, plus as a bonus we got to stick it to Green Bay, again!

FA is not even a week old, 2 years ago I do not think the Vikes signed 1 player in the 1st 2 weeks.

How is this not addressing problems, and their are a few other teams in the league (31 of them) that might have interest in some players. And the players might have interest in them! It would be hard to schedule every player.

mattjenny3
03-17-2006, 07:17 AM
Nice.

I won't argue, I see your points and they are valid.

Really though, anyone, (maybe I should start a thread, god knows we don't have enough) give me something solid AGAINST CT/ BenL otherwise quit bashing the Vikings. Yes, when you badmouth the coaches/owners/mangagement/players you arebadmouthing the vikings

collegeguyjeff
03-17-2006, 07:45 AM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

collegejeffguy,

If you read my posts, I don't think Taylor is a bad pickup - I've said the opposite. I think Childress and Tomline are great pickups, and I've admitted that these are just my opinions. Some of it is conjecture for the point of ranting, other parts are things that I have noticed. But, as you so eloquently pointed out, I'm not Vince Lombardi...or am I... ;)

Ease up a little...it was thrown out there as my opinion. I run websites for a living, I don't run football teams. Then again, most of us don't, but we have no problem commenting on the game - its the point of having forums to talk about this stuff.

That being said, I admire your optimism. I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong when the season comes around.

all im gonna say is sure not every move is the right or best move but im happy with it. anyways it's not like we can't make more changes next yer. i havn't been this excited for a football season in a while. we got rid of a lot of our trash and problems and now we can go on from there. but don't take anything i said wrong i was thinking you were a packers troll stiring up trouble.

collegeguyjeff
03-17-2006, 07:51 AM
"modena11" wrote:

"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

good post i know your a true vikings fan.

please define true viking fan.

a true vikings fan is like me, i always watch the games, don't wine and cry about who we draft or get in free agency and say well we could do better. and im a fan even through the bad times.

ultravikingfan
03-17-2006, 08:16 AM
"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

"modena11" wrote:

"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

good post i know your a true vikings fan.

please define true viking fan.

a true vikings fan is like me, i always watch the games, don't wine and cry about who we draft or get in free agency and say well we could do better. and im a fan even through the bad times.

Yeah right!

Now your FUBAR! :razz:

nfl-forums
03-17-2006, 08:36 AM
"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

all im gonna say is sure not every move is the right or best move but im happy with it. anyways it's not like we can't make more changes next yer. i havn't been this excited for a football season in a while. we got rid of a lot of our trash and problems and now we can go on from there. but don't take anything i said wrong i was thinking you were a packers troll stiring up trouble.

Eh...I didn't make a strong case for myself coming in with a negative thread. :lol:

That being said, I do think I'm a true Viking fan. I watch every game, good or bad. I am there cheering as loud as possible, but I'm not afraid to boo as well. I don't give up on the team, but I try to be an objective football fan.

I gotta say, today has been great fun, a huge time killer, and a great opportunity to meet the members of this board. I look forward to spending more time here (hopefully you'll see that I'm not all pessimism).

Prophet
03-17-2006, 08:53 AM
"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

...a true vikings fan is like me...

Just in case you want a visual of what a true fan looks like:

http://www.purplepride.org/uploads/avatars/15341429fd1c785914.jpg

DCPologirl
03-17-2006, 09:36 AM
"Prophet" wrote:

"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

...a true vikings fan is like me...

Just in case you want a visual of what a true fan looks like:

http://www.purplepride.org/uploads/avatars/15341429fd1c785914.jpg

:roll:

ultravikingfan
03-17-2006, 04:43 PM
"cajunvike" wrote:

collegeguyjeff....don't you mean that ANY (or EVERY) player is potentially expendable (see definition b below):

Main Entry: 1ex·pend·able
Pronunciation: ik-'spen-d&-b&l
Function: adjective
: that may be expended : as a : normally used up or consumed in service <expendable supplies like pencils and paper> b : more easily or economically replaced than rescued, salvaged, or protected
- ex·pend·abil·i·ty /-"spen-d&-'bi-l&-tE/ noun

Didn't they teach you that at Fisher-Price College? :razz:

http://www.smilies-and-more.de/pics/smilies/laughing/184.gif

Ha haa! Fisher Price College!!!

http://www.smilies-and-more.de/pics/smilies/laughing/183.gif

mnjamie
03-17-2006, 04:48 PM
Oh no he didn't ... not this "True Fan" crap again.

mnjamie
03-17-2006, 04:49 PM
Nfl-forums .... turn your membership card in at the front door on your way out if you don't believe and/or see what management is attempting to do ... which is build a Team to win ... not just marketable individual players.

Del Rio
03-17-2006, 04:51 PM
"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

"modena11" wrote:

"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

good post i know your a true vikings fan.

please define true viking fan.

a true vikings fan is like me, i always watch the games, don't wine and cry about who we draft or get in free agency and say well we could do better. and im a fan even through the bad times.

So you would make a good puppet, but a horrible government worker.

V4L
03-17-2006, 04:54 PM
I hate these true fan deals..

Wiggles67
03-17-2006, 05:09 PM
"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

"modena11" wrote:

"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

good post i know your a true vikings fan.

please define true viking fan.

a true vikings fan is like me, i always watch the games, don't wine and cry about who we draft or get in free agency and say well we could do better. and im a fan even through the bad times.I have a very hard time accpeting this. What I am hearing here is that we arent supposed to question anything as a fan. But instead be a lemming and blindly follow our team around regardless of their actions.

This is rediculous...I'm an individual so is everyone else on this board and just because we challenge certain decisions being made doesnt make us "less" of a fan. It shows we can think for ourselves and arent afraid to stand up for what we believe in.




nfl-forums, even though I dont agree with some of what you are saying I just wanted to commend you on making such a bold first post. That was a very impressive well thought out post regardless of whether people here agree with it or not.

The one part of your post I am going to address is about the draft, no one seems to have mentioned anything about this yet. First of all, I definately dont agree with what Wilf said about 1st rounders and 2nds being the same. But I was listening to KFAN and this was their reasoning behind this.

This year's draft is very deep and we will definately be able to find some good talent with both of our picks in the second round. This compared to some of the other drafts we can find 1st around talent in the 2nd round. The biggest advantage we get with these second round draft picks is that they dont have the enormous contracts and signging bonuses.

Its silly to say that 2nd rounders are the same as 1st but with the draft we have this year and the depth of talent available I think we are in a great position to land some instant starters and not have to sign them to huge contracts.

badbois
03-17-2006, 05:26 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

"modena11" wrote:

"collegeguyjeff" wrote:

good post i know your a true vikings fan.

please define true viking fan.

a true vikings fan is like me, i always watch the games, don't wine and cry about who we draft or get in free agency and say well we could do better. and im a fan even through the bad times.

So you would make a good puppet, but a horrible government worker.

If you just follow what they do and aren't angry when they so things you don't like, where's the passion?

ultravikingfan
03-17-2006, 05:32 PM
"Wiggles67" wrote:

I have a very hard time accpeting this. What I am hearing here is that we arent supposed to question anything as a fan. But instead be a lemming and blindly follow our team around regardless of their actions.

Wrong.

What they are doing is questioning each other as a fan; trying to pretty much say "you are not a fan."

Wiggles67
03-17-2006, 05:35 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:

"Wiggles67" wrote:

I have a very hard time accpeting this. What I am hearing here is that we arent supposed to question anything as a fan. But instead be a lemming and blindly follow our team around regardless of their actions.

Wrong.

What they are doing is questioning each other as a fan; trying to pretty much say "you are not a fan."because someone questions the decisions the organization makes?

ultravikingfan
03-17-2006, 05:42 PM
"Wiggles67" wrote:

"ultravikingfan" wrote:

"Wiggles67" wrote:

I have a very hard time accpeting this. What I am hearing here is that we arent supposed to question anything as a fan. But instead be a lemming and blindly follow our team around regardless of their actions.

Wrong.

What they are doing is questioning each other as a fan; trying to pretty much say "you are not a fan."because someone questions the decisions the organization makes?

Thats fine.

What is not fine is questioning whether somebody is a fan or not. Speak out all you want.

What I am saying that saying, "you are not a fan" is a load of goat crap. Thats all.

Speak out and raise hell....you are free to do so here without personal attack.

However, you may be required to defend your convictions.

nfl-forums
03-17-2006, 06:27 PM
"Wiggles67" wrote:

This year's draft is very deep and we will definately be able to find some good talent with both of our picks in the second round. This compared to some of the other drafts we can find 1st around talent in the 2nd round. The biggest advantage we get with these second round draft picks is that they dont have the enormous contracts and signging bonuses.

I can see the reasoning here, but it still sounds like a load of spin. I am not one to blindly trust this organization with their moves as I really don't know Wilf or any of the other leaders now (none of us do), and the one thing I don't want to start hearing is this spin that tries to make it look like they got exactly what they wanted when we all know that losing Pepp for a 2nd rounder is something that they will all refer to as 'unfortunate'.

As far as the 'true fan' debate goes, I'm not sure, but I think Plato addressed the 'true fan' in The Republic. :lol:

(what...too geeky?)

Prophet
03-17-2006, 06:35 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:

...As far as the 'true fan' debate goes, I'm not sure, but I think Plato addressed the 'true fan' in The Republic. :lol:

(what...too geeky?)

I was wondering if that ever was going to come up.

There really isn't a debate of a 'true fan' going on in this thread. It was just CJG calling himself one and saying someone else isn't. Kind of funny in a twisted sort of way.

Too bad a good thread turned south. I guess it happens after X # of pages.

vegasvike
03-17-2006, 07:34 PM
"maddenhasamancrushonfavre" wrote:

"vegasvike" wrote:

Man I hope I dont regret asking this but what the f##k is FUBAR?

Much better work. Your sentence was awesome and easy to comprehend. However, there should've been a comma after "Man" and "this" and there should have been an apostrophe in "dont".

LOL! I didn't know this was ENGLISH CLASS too :lol:

ultravikingfan
03-17-2006, 07:45 PM
"maddenhasamancrushonfavre" wrote:

Much better work. Your sentence was awesome and easy to comprehend. However, there should've been a comma after "Man" and "this" and there should have been an apostrophe in "dont".

Why did you use "should've" one time and "should of" the other?

Grammar police not welcome here.

whackthepack
03-17-2006, 08:22 PM
A lot of Vikings fans had their hopes up that with no CBA that there would be hundreds of FA for us to pick from and cost very little to get them! Well that never happened and with the CBA the fans figured with the 30 million dollars that we were going to sign 10 top flight free agents the first day, and that is not realistic! Top flight free agents require big signing bonuses, big pay and high salary cap numbers.

Hutchinson is 13 million on our cap!

There is also 31 other teams trying to sign people, and I am sorry to say that all players are not fans of our favorite team! Not every player goal is to play here, I wish it was the case but it is not!


I have a feeling that we are going to go into this year just trying to get solid players for the first year of the new organization. They will determine which they have that are good, and who will turn into top players. Then next year we will see a lot of players gone, and in FA next year we will be adding more pieces that the organization wants.


What the fans want and what the team wants is rarely the same, and it is usually the team that wins.

BBQ Platypus
03-19-2006, 02:53 AM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.

He has played one year. He is alotted a curve better himself. Yes I agree the Moss trade was due in part to Red. It is widely believed also that Tice is somewhat to blame and even Culpepper two guys you defend later on in this post.

2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.

I don't know that you can be acurate in saying it doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move when we haven't seen the team even practice yet. Also you have no proof it was 100% their fault. You assume it was, if it was in fact him who had the issues and was causing grief then this point is moot.


3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.

First of all, he wasn't fired. His contract was up. He just wasn't rehired. Second of all no he didn't just need one more year. Or another or another or another. In fact he stated he was on a 3-4 year plan...he failed his own declaration. Good move to let him walk at the end of the year.

4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.

I don't think he is that great anyway. You may be right though. I wont lose sleep over it.

5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?

I find this reasoning faulty. Why are they bad moves? Because you don't recognize their names? If the coach has a plan and things these blue collar workers will help it more then throwing truckloads of money to high priced, high attitude players then more power to him. Just because these guys don't make the all madden team meand they should be written off. You will have to wait to see them play, to see them perform for our team to make these claims stick.


6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.

This isn't a recipe for disaster it is an over reaction.

7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.

If that is all the proof you have (randy ratio) then I'm not sold on it. Overreaction IMO


8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.

Great coaches need to start somewhere, you have no idea they wont make a huge impact. Even though the real law of averages does not apply, I will say that there is a reason it is called a staff. Not all coaches will be great they will work together as a team. Individually they may be weak together they may have a chemistry unmatched. You have no idea until we get to see them in action.

9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?

We had near the most cash available. Wilf has prooven he doesn't piss around. If we wanted them they would have been here at least for a meeting. If we didn't want them they it really isn't a loss.


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.

PS I dont hate you for making that post. I just disagree with gol 'darnit near the entire thing.

Good post though, well thought out.

I don't know how ANYONE can think that this hasn't been the stingiest free agency I've ever seen. The current ownership is making Red McCombs look like the Bill Gates Foundation. He would always sign JUST ONE marquee free agent per year to make it look like he was doing something, too. I blame the cap guy. I'm not buying this "blue collar" crap. How much good did "blue collar" Chris Hovan do for our team? How about last year, when the "blue collar" Moe Williams was going to be our workhorse RB? How'd that work out?

As wrong as it is to assume a player is good for the team because you've never heard of him, it's just as wrong to assume that the coach must see something in them just because you haven't heard of them. It might be the work of the cap guy, with Childress just paying lip service to that player. I'm not saying that that's what I believe (it isn't - I just think Childress is a bit weird, which will either be great for us or a freaking disaster). My point is that you DON'T KNOW. I would feel a lot better if we would at least sign a defensive veteran to fall back on. I'm going to e-mail the front office about this to voice my concerns. If we do badly next season, I know who I'm blaming, and I'm NOT going to give them any grace period.

Ltrey33
03-19-2006, 03:01 AM
"BBQ Platypus" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.

He has played one year. He is alotted a curve better himself. Yes I agree the Moss trade was due in part to Red. It is widely believed also that Tice is somewhat to blame and even Culpepper two guys you defend later on in this post.

2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.

I don't know that you can be acurate in saying it doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move when we haven't seen the team even practice yet. Also you have no proof it was 100% their fault. You assume it was, if it was in fact him who had the issues and was causing grief then this point is moot.


3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.

First of all, he wasn't fired. His contract was up. He just wasn't rehired. Second of all no he didn't just need one more year. Or another or another or another. In fact he stated he was on a 3-4 year plan...he failed his own declaration. Good move to let him walk at the end of the year.

4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.

I don't think he is that great anyway. You may be right though. I wont lose sleep over it.

5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?

I find this reasoning faulty. Why are they bad moves? Because you don't recognize their names? If the coach has a plan and things these blue collar workers will help it more then throwing truckloads of money to high priced, high attitude players then more power to him. Just because these guys don't make the all madden team meand they should be written off. You will have to wait to see them play, to see them perform for our team to make these claims stick.


6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.

This isn't a recipe for disaster it is an over reaction.

7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.

If that is all the proof you have (randy ratio) then I'm not sold on it. Overreaction IMO


8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.

Great coaches need to start somewhere, you have no idea they wont make a huge impact. Even though the real law of averages does not apply, I will say that there is a reason it is called a staff. Not all coaches will be great they will work together as a team. Individually they may be weak together they may have a chemistry unmatched. You have no idea until we get to see them in action.

9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?

We had near the most cash available. Wilf has prooven he doesn't piss around. If we wanted them they would have been here at least for a meeting. If we didn't want them they it really isn't a loss.


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.

PS I dont hate you for making that post. I just disagree with gol 'darnit near the entire thing.

Good post though, well thought out.

I don't know how ANYONE can think that this hasn't been the stingiest free agency I've ever seen. The current ownership is making Red McCombs look like the Bill Gates Foundation. He would always sign JUST ONE marquee free agent per year to make it look like he was doing something, too. I blame the cap guy. I'm not buying this "blue collar" crap. How much good did "blue collar" Chris Hovan do for our team? How about last year, when the "blue collar" Moe Williams was going to be our workhorse RB? How'd that work out?

As wrong as it is to assume a player is good for the team because you've never heard of him, it's just as wrong to assume that the coach must see something in them just because you haven't heard of them. It might be the work of the cap guy, with Childress just paying lip service to that player. I'm not saying that that's what I believe (it isn't - I just think Childress is a bit weird, which will either be great for us or a freaking disaster). My point is that you DON'T KNOW. I would feel a lot better if we would at least sign a defensive veteran to fall back on. I'm going to e-mail the front office about this to voice my concerns. If we do badly next season, I know who I'm blaming, and I'm NOT going to give them any grace period.

I don't think it was the stingiest free agency ever. Don't compare anyone to Moe or Hovan either, because they were the last coaching staff's players. We haven't even seen what direction this team is taking yet. Save your judgement for further down (AKA not less than 3 months after the new guy takes over) the road.

I think we've had a very good offseason and you just need to chill out!

PurplePeopleEaters89
03-19-2006, 03:02 AM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"nfl-forums" wrote:

I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team. I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin. I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years. My rant is below:

1. Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible. It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.

He has played one year. He is alotted a curve better himself. Yes I agree the Moss trade was due in part to Red. It is widely believed also that Tice is somewhat to blame and even Culpepper two guys you defend later on in this post.

2. Culpepper Trade. Their fault, 100%. So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick. Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.

I don't know that you can be acurate in saying it doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move when we haven't seen the team even practice yet. Also you have no proof it was 100% their fault. You assume it was, if it was in fact him who had the issues and was causing grief then this point is moot.


3. Firing Tice. He needed one more year. He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.

First of all, he wasn't fired. His contract was up. He just wasn't rehired. Second of all no he didn't just need one more year. Or another or another or another. In fact he stated he was on a 3-4 year plan...he failed his own declaration. Good move to let him walk at the end of the year.

4. Lowballing Burleson. This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him. He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.

I don't think he is that great anyway. You may be right though. I wont lose sleep over it.

5. Bad Free Agency. Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)? I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available. Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?

I find this reasoning faulty. Why are they bad moves? Because you don't recognize their names? If the coach has a plan and things these blue collar workers will help it more then throwing truckloads of money to high priced, high attitude players then more power to him. Just because these guys don't make the all madden team meand they should be written off. You will have to wait to see them play, to see them perform for our team to make these claims stick.


6. Coaching hires. We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches. Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee. Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.

This isn't a recipe for disaster it is an over reaction.

7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?). The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.

If that is all the proof you have (randy ratio) then I'm not sold on it. Overreaction IMO


8. All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings. I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position. The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.

Great coaches need to start somewhere, you have no idea they wont make a huge impact. Even though the real law of averages does not apply, I will say that there is a reason it is called a staff. Not all coaches will be great they will work together as a team. Individually they may be weak together they may have a chemistry unmatched. You have no idea until we get to see them in action.

9. Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes. Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams. We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in. We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington. As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?

We had near the most cash available. Wilf has prooven he doesn't piss around. If we wanted them they would have been here at least for a meeting. If we didn't want them they it really isn't a loss.


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world. WHAT??? If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders). He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done. I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year. Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft. Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.

PS I dont hate you for making that post. I just disagree with gol 'darnit near the entire thing.

Good post though, well thought out.


Thank the lord, Jesus speaks!!! I was reading through all the replies and all were positive!!! How can you say Steve Loney was the best O-Line coah?? We traded Randy do to his antics and he just wasn't acting like a leader!!! Daunte got to worried about his money that he got fed up with the team!!! Remember, HE was the guy that didn't want to commit to minnesota by coming to the teams facilities and rehabing!!! I do agree with you on losing Will Demps and other guys!!! Until you are sure about the rookie coaches given a promotions don't post it unless you can give us CREDIBLE info from a site!!! I don't see where you get Burleson as having skill!!! When Randy went down, yes he stepped up!! But that was all he did!! He did nothing to show that he can be a true number 1 receiver!! HECK, Koren Robinson wasn't even here the whole season and he did a better job than Burleson!!!

whackthepack
10-23-2006, 12:12 PM
"nfl-forums" wrote:


I know a lot of you will hate me for making this post, but it is unfortunately how I feel right now about the team.
I have been a loyal fan for years and will follow the Vikes through thick and thin.
I unfortunately think that the next few years will be some rough years.
My rant is below:

1.
Randy Moss Trade. Not their fault, but ole Red traded Randy because he was dumping the team and wanted to get as much money as possible.
It was this ownership group that went ahead and drafted Williamson who, although fast and smooth, has a long way to go to being a good receiver.
2.
Culpepper Trade.
Their fault, 100%.
So in two years, the Vikings have traded away Moss and Culpepper and in return got Harris, Williamson, and a 2nd round draft pick.
Doesn't take much to see this as a knuckleheaded move.
3.
Firing Tice.
He needed one more year.
He may have not succeeded, but we will never know since he never got the opportunity to put together the team he wanted. The guy was working with one hand tied behind his back, was finally a couple of players away from having the team that he wanted, and a couple of coaches away from being a decent coaching staff.
4.
Lowballing Burleson.
This kid has talent, but instead of using the $30+ million in cap room they had, they low-balled him.
He is now visiting Seattle and could be lost to them.
5.
Bad Free Agency.
Ok, you have $34mil in cap room, and the best you can do is Ben Leber, Chester Taylor, and Steve Hutchinson (maybe)?
I like Hutchinson, and I think Taylor will be an ok RB, but this is rather unimpressive given some of the names available.
Knowing that we were losing Culpepper, why not make a move for Brees?
6.
Coaching hires.
We let go of Steve Loney, one of the leagues best O-Line coaches.
Instead we now have two or three nobody coaches to coach the O-Line by committee.
Tell me this isn't a recipe for disaster.
7. Triangle of Authority. Anytime a team gives a nickname to something like this, it fails (remember the "Randy Ratio"?).
The so-called triangle of authority that will make decisions will inevitably collapse at some point and cause a lot of consternation among the organization.
8.
All Rookie Coaching Staff. I don't believe any of the coaches in the new staff made a lateral move to the Vikings.
I am pretty sure that they were all promoted to their position.
The law of averages says that there is going to be a couple of duds in the group.
9.
Losing Free Agents. Will Demps and Dexter Jackson were both supposed to visit the Vikes.
Of course they weren't aggressive in going after them, and both signed with other teams.
We need help in the secondary again (losing Chavous and B. Williams) and currently there are no plans to bring anyone in.
We need help at linebacker, yet no news of bringing in Julian Peterson or Lavaar Arrington.
As the team with the most money to spend, why can't we get people to even vist?


Wilf was quoted today as saying that a 2nd round draft pick is just as valuable as a 1st round draft pick in today's world.
WHAT???
If that's the case, let's trade our 17th pick for 2 more 2nd rounders - that'll give us 4 2nd round draft picks (or as Wilf would say, 4 1st rounders).
He obviously doesn't get it.

All this is going on while Wilf is working hard to get a stadium deal done.
I'm telling you, he has some momentum now, but when the Vikings are struggling to win 5 games next year, everyone is going to sour on the deal very quickly.

I guess the only good news is that next year we will probably be another 30 mil under the cap since they won't spend on real needs this year.
Oh, and I'm guessing we will have a top-10 pick in the 2007 draft.
Of course, we can give up that top 10 pick for a 2nd round draft pick - its just as good as a first round draft pick.




I know this is old, but I had to bring it back and where is NFL Forums now to back up this post?
You were right on the money dude! ::)

cajunvike
10-23-2006, 12:15 PM
He is probably right that we should have made a move for Brees (and this is no dis on Brad...just looking at it from the long-term side).

whackthepack
10-23-2006, 12:21 PM
"cajunvike" wrote:


He is probably right that we should have made a move for Brees (and this is no dis on Brad...just looking at it from the long-term side).



Looks good now, but at the time he was coming off shoulder surgery and was asking 10 million a year and there was a big question on when he would play, or how will the shoulder would hold up.

Del Rio
10-23-2006, 12:26 PM
This was one of those golden threads. I'm not so concerned with NFL forums lol, it is the members who commented in the course of the thread that scare me, the ones that are still here that were bitching and moaning non stop all offseason that have become quiet and non responsive.

Also make Note that this thread was accepted for the most part because it was done intelligently and with some thought. He was wrong on damn near everything but he gave it a good shot.

Prophet
10-23-2006, 12:38 PM
The people that disappeared will reappear when things go their distorted way for a game.
They will post unsubstantiated 'facts' and get drilled for it and fall back into the shadows again.
Their day will come, as it always does, when the team goes into the tank for a while.
Look at the Raiders and Dolphins message boards right now, all the FUBAR types are posting like the wildmen that they are and they will fall back into the shadows when things go right.

I liked this thread because the reasoning as to why he thought that way were on the table and open for discussion.
A rare post these days it seems.


Oh yeah, BTW, Hicks sucks.

cajunvike
10-23-2006, 12:47 PM
"whackthepack" wrote:


"cajunvike" wrote:


He is probably right that we should have made a move for Brees (and this is no dis on Brad...just looking at it from the long-term side).



Looks good now, but at the time he was coming off shoulder surgery and was asking 10 million a year and there was a big question on when he would play, or how will the shoulder would hold up.



True...but the Saints look like geniuses right about now!

Prophet
10-23-2006, 12:53 PM
"cajunvike" wrote:


"whackthepack" wrote:


"cajunvike" wrote:


He is probably right that we should have made a move for Brees (and this is no dis on Brad...just looking at it from the long-term side).



Looks good now, but at the time he was coming off shoulder surgery and was asking 10 million a year and there was a big question on when he would play, or how will the shoulder would hold up.



True...but the Saints look like geniuses right about now!


The Saints were geniuses by getting rid of Haslett and Brooks.
Anything they did after that was just a bonus.

Ltrey33
10-23-2006, 01:16 PM
This thread is classic. I love it when stuff like this comes up 6 or 8 months down the road and everyone gets to go, "I told you so" when someone makes a dumb post.
;D

Ltrey33 wrote:

You people really need to chill the F!!ck out. I'm getting really tired of the negativity coming from you people around the moves that Childress and Zygi are making. We
haven't even seen any of these guys perform for crying out loud! Stop being sour grapes, support your team, and stop bitching like a bunch of fish wives.

I disagreed with everything he said, and then wrote that. It's still one of my favorite posts. Bitching like a fish wife...ha.

(and yes I did quote myself)

Ltrey33
10-23-2006, 01:20 PM
"Prophet" wrote:


"nfl-forums" wrote:

Interesting responses.
Besides being compared to a 'fish wife', it was pretty entertaining to read the responses.
Good stuff.

A few points:

1.
Loney.
In the NFL he is recognized as one of the best O-Line coaches in the league.
Last year was bad, but he was also wearing two big hats, dealing with a ton of injuries, and had what amounts to 3rd string players starting.
Considering all that, he actually did pretty good given his situation.
I have yet to hear any reasonable argument to tell me that our new O-Line coaches are going to work out better.
Anyone know anything about them to give me some reason to think they are better than an O-line coach of several years like Loney?

Loney.
Tice should have stayed the O-line coach and Redneck should have looked for a reasonable head coach as Tice's replacement after filling in as the interim when Denny walked.
Loney joined up with Denny in Zona, we'll see how he does.
I'm not sure how the new 0-line coaches will do, neither is anyone else, so how am I going to develop a convincing argument on unknowns, I'm not sure so I won't.


2.
Focusing on the Past.
My point is simple: in the past few years the Vikings have been an embarrassement in the way that they have been run.
Losing Moss and Pepp for the compensation we received is unacceptable.
Again, I challenge anyone to tell me that we got equal value for two of the best players in the league.
So far no one has tried to make this argument which leads me to believe that everyone pretty much agrees that we got hosed out of two of the best players in the league.

The main reason the Vikings have been an embarrassment the past few years was due to coaching and the trickle down effect.
Tice could beat teams that weren't that good based on raw talent and coaching 101 skills.
When the game was close and ended up being a chess match between coaching staffs or HCs Tice lost.
It's like beating your five year old son in chess.

The two best players in the league?
Good one.
Moss is one of the top receivers in the league and Culpepper was ranked up in the top-tier of active QBs too before his injury.

The Moss trade was done during Redneck's era and I don't know all the details other than there were more acquisitions from the Moss trade then Napoleon Harris.
A lot of coinage was available to sign other folks that someone else can list if they feel like it.
Most fans realize now that the head-case problems were more related to Culpepper than Moss.

The Daunte trade has been discussed ad nausem in hundreds of threads in this forum.
No point in rehashing that one.
Bottom-line is that they got current market-value for him.
If they would have paid him the bonus and when he obviously didn't want to be here why do you think he would have been worth more in '07?
The only way that would be true is if he played in '06 and I would sure hope the new coaches on the team wouldn't have played him.
The alternate argument about him honoring his contract if he wasn't traded or released is transparent.
Just like the apologies he released today.

Personally, I am thrilled that both of them are gone.
Moss and Culpepper, both for their attitudes and dedication to the Vikings.
Two players are gone that some people worshipped.
Doesn't bother me for a second.



3.
Tradding Pepp.
Here's the real scoop - it did not need to be done.
He was under contract and publicly stated that if he was not released or traded that he would play in 2006.
We could have kept him under contract, told him that he will be released or traded next year, and this year to work hard to raise his value.

That's a scoop?
Come on.
Of course, the options were to trade him, cut him, or sign him.
He wanted out.
Is it worth having a cancer on your team just to raise his value?
Play people with the drive and determination that want to be there.
Start building the team with leaders that buy into the system.
He didn't.



4.
Spending money.
I have said numerous times that we don't have to spend money to have a good free agency.
But, there is no reason that we should leave free agency and look back saying that we weren't the team that made the most improvements.
So far since FA we have arguably upgraded these spots: RB, K, LB, and OL.
Some of those might be draws, some of those are definitely upgrades.
Oh, and we lost big time at QB.

There is a reason that the Vikings have a bunch of money in the cap and other teams don't.
Parly due to a residual effect from Redneck and partly due to cap management.
There was no loss at QB, the game isn't done yet.
Daunte did not want to be here.
He is a head case that needed his ego stroked and the new boys in town weren't going to do it, especially since he showed no inititative in meeting with Childress and learning the new system.
The FA is five days old and the draft hasn't even happened yet.
Many teams would love to be in this position.
There will be people available, the QB issue will be resolved.
A complete moronunderstands that BJ isn't the long-term solution.
Of course they are looking at scenarios to address that issue.


5.
Coaching.
Again, I have said numerous times that I do not think Childress is going to be a bad coach.
However, I do think that with an entirely new staff of rookie coaches that there will be places that we suffer.
Personally, I think Childress was the best pickup out there, but the overhauls that we made in the coaching staff leaves a giant question mark.

There isn't a team in the league without question marks in their coaching staff.
The main thing is if the team buys into the coaches and their philosophy.
If they do it will probably work.
If the don't (Daunte) it can not possibly work.
The new coaching staff is exciting just for the simple fact that the Vikings had the worse coaching staff in the league, with the possible exception of the Saints, and the new coaching staff brings more experience to the table then you give them credit for.
They worked their way up through the ranks sequentially in all cases that I am aware of.
It's not like they took an o-line coach and tossed them in as HC without ever being a coordinator....I heard that has happened to a team before.


6.
Negativity.
I am sorry if you don't like the negativity.
I'll be the first person to tell myself "I told you so" if I'm wrong.
The negativity is my frustration from what I see happening with our very young and inexperienced administration.
Again, if anyone can tell me that even with the cap space we gained in jettisoning Moss and Culpepper that we actually came out ahead in the deal, I'll be all ears.
So far I've seen no reason to believe that we are the ones who got the better end of the deals.

Enjoy your negativity.
I'm on the optimistic boat, and it is not blind optimism.
Like I said earlier, if any team member does not buy into the system, especially if they are supposed to be a leader, let them walk.
Regardless of their supposed heroism.
The team members need to be exactly that, no individual player is bigger then the organization.


Who's this prophet guy that was posting? I vaguely remember him...

IDK, he had some good thoughts though. Maybe we'll see him on the boards sometime again.

Prophet
10-23-2006, 01:21 PM
"Ltrey33" wrote:


"Prophet" wrote:


"nfl-forums" wrote:

Interesting responses.
Besides being compared to a 'fish wife', it was pretty entertaining to read the responses.
Good stuff.

A few points:

1.
Loney.
In the NFL he is recognized as one of the best O-Line coaches in the league.
Last year was bad, but he was also wearing two big hats, dealing with a ton of injuries, and had what amounts to 3rd string players starting.
Considering all that, he actually did pretty good given his situation.
I have yet to hear any reasonable argument to tell me that our new O-Line coaches are going to work out better.
Anyone know anything about them to give me some reason to think they are better than an O-line coach of several years like Loney?

Loney.
Tice should have stayed the O-line coach and Redneck should have looked for a reasonable head coach as Tice's replacement after filling in as the interim when Denny walked.
Loney joined up with Denny in Zona, we'll see how he does.
I'm not sure how the new 0-line coaches will do, neither is anyone else, so how am I going to develop a convincing argument on unknowns, I'm not sure so I won't.


2.
Focusing on the Past.
My point is simple: in the past few years the Vikings have been an embarrassement in the way that they have been run.
Losing Moss and Pepp for the compensation we received is unacceptable.
Again, I challenge anyone to tell me that we got equal value for two of the best players in the league.
So far no one has tried to make this argument which leads me to believe that everyone pretty much agrees that we got hosed out of two of the best players in the league.

The main reason the Vikings have been an embarrassment the past few years was due to coaching and the trickle down effect.
Tice could beat teams that weren't that good based on raw talent and coaching 101 skills.
When the game was close and ended up being a chess match between coaching staffs or HCs Tice lost.
It's like beating your five year old son in chess.

The two best players in the league?
Good one.
Moss is one of the top receivers in the league and Culpepper was ranked up in the top-tier of active QBs too before his injury.

The Moss trade was done during Redneck's era and I don't know all the details other than there were more acquisitions from the Moss trade then Napoleon Harris.
A lot of coinage was available to sign other folks that someone else can list if they feel like it.
Most fans realize now that the head-case problems were more related to Culpepper than Moss.

The Daunte trade has been discussed ad nausem in hundreds of threads in this forum.
No point in rehashing that one.
Bottom-line is that they got current market-value for him.
If they would have paid him the bonus and when he obviously didn't want to be here why do you think he would have been worth more in '07?
The only way that would be true is if he played in '06 and I would sure hope the new coaches on the team wouldn't have played him.
The alternate argument about him honoring his contract if he wasn't traded or released is transparent.
Just like the apologies he released today.

Personally, I am thrilled that both of them are gone.
Moss and Culpepper, both for their attitudes and dedication to the Vikings.
Two players are gone that some people worshipped.
Doesn't bother me for a second.



3.
Tradding Pepp.
Here's the real scoop - it did not need to be done.
He was under contract and publicly stated that if he was not released or traded that he would play in 2006.
We could have kept him under contract, told him that he will be released or traded next year, and this year to work hard to raise his value.

That's a scoop?
Come on.
Of course, the options were to trade him, cut him, or sign him.
He wanted out.
Is it worth having a cancer on your team just to raise his value?
Play people with the drive and determination that want to be there.
Start building the team with leaders that buy into the system.
He didn't.



4.
Spending money.
I have said numerous times that we don't have to spend money to have a good free agency.
But, there is no reason that we should leave free agency and look back saying that we weren't the team that made the most improvements.
So far since FA we have arguably upgraded these spots: RB, K, LB, and OL.
Some of those might be draws, some of those are definitely upgrades.
Oh, and we lost big time at QB.

There is a reason that the Vikings have a bunch of money in the cap and other teams don't.
Parly due to a residual effect from Redneck and partly due to cap management.
There was no loss at QB, the game isn't done yet.
Daunte did not want to be here.
He is a head case that needed his ego stroked and the new boys in town weren't going to do it, especially since he showed no inititative in meeting with Childress and learning the new system.
The FA is five days old and the draft hasn't even happened yet.
Many teams would love to be in this position.
There will be people available, the QB issue will be resolved.
A complete moronunderstands that BJ isn't the long-term solution.
Of course they are looking at scenarios to address that issue.


5.
Coaching.
Again, I have said numerous times that I do not think Childress is going to be a bad coach.
However, I do think that with an entirely new staff of rookie coaches that there will be places that we suffer.
Personally, I think Childress was the best pickup out there, but the overhauls that we made in the coaching staff leaves a giant question mark.

There isn't a team in the league without question marks in their coaching staff.
The main thing is if the team buys into the coaches and their philosophy.
If they do it will probably work.
If the don't (Daunte) it can not possibly work.
The new coaching staff is exciting just for the simple fact that the Vikings had the worse coaching staff in the league, with the possible exception of the Saints, and the new coaching staff brings more experience to the table then you give them credit for.
They worked their way up through the ranks sequentially in all cases that I am aware of.
It's not like they took an o-line coach and tossed them in as HC without ever being a coordinator....I heard that has happened to a team before.


6.
Negativity.
I am sorry if you don't like the negativity.
I'll be the first person to tell myself "I told you so" if I'm wrong.
The negativity is my frustration from what I see happening with our very young and inexperienced administration.
Again, if anyone can tell me that even with the cap space we gained in jettisoning Moss and Culpepper that we actually came out ahead in the deal, I'll be all ears.
So far I've seen no reason to believe that we are the ones who got the better end of the deals.

Enjoy your negativity.
I'm on the optimistic boat, and it is not blind optimism.
Like I said earlier, if any team member does not buy into the system, especially if they are supposed to be a leader, let them walk.
Regardless of their supposed heroism.
The team members need to be exactly that, no individual player is bigger then the organization.


Who's this prophet guy that was posting? I vaguely remember him...

IDK, he had some good thoughts though. Maybe we'll see him on the boards sometime again.


Some asshole, he sure knew what he was talking about though.

whackthepack
10-23-2006, 03:50 PM
I was looking back at some old thread and I saw a bunch by that Prophet guy, but he must have become a Packer fan or something because he hasn't posted in awhile.

Ltrey33
10-23-2006, 03:53 PM
"whackthepack" wrote:


I was looking back at some old thread and I saw a bunch by that Prophet guy, but he must have become a Packer fan or something because he hasn't posted in awhile.


Ooooo! 'Em are fightin words!

Prophet
10-23-2006, 03:54 PM
"whackthepack" wrote:


I was looking back at some old thread and I saw a bunch by that Prophet guy, but he must have become a Packer fan or something because he hasn't posted in awhile.


I was wondering the same thing, he seemed way too intelligent to be a Porker fan.
May he RIP and rise as something bigger and stronger.

cajunvike
10-23-2006, 04:07 PM
"Acumen" wrote:


"whackthepack" wrote:


I was looking back at some old thread and I saw a bunch by that Prophet guy, but he must have become a Packer fan or something because he hasn't posted in awhile.


I was wondering the same thing, he seemed way too intelligent to be a Porker fan.
May he RIP and rise as something bigger and stronger.


I doubt it...that guy was WAY too full of himself.


He's probably living in an old single-wide trailer somewhere in rural Mississippi, sitting in one of those old webbed folding chairs, chain-smoking on the rickety old attached deck with the cheap green Astroturf glued to it, hollering at his obese "baby mamma" to get him another can of Milwaukee's Beast while he watches his new team "the Packers" get beat again on his old black-and-white TV with the rabbit ears!
:D

Prophet
10-23-2006, 04:14 PM
"cajunvike" wrote:


"Acumen" wrote:


"whackthepack" wrote:


I was looking back at some old thread and I saw a bunch by that Prophet guy, but he must have become a Packer fan or something because he hasn't posted in awhile.


I was wondering the same thing, he seemed way too intelligent to be a Porker fan.
May he RIP and rise as something bigger and stronger.


I doubt it...that guy was WAY too full of himself.


He's probably living in an old single-wide trailer somewhere in rural Mississippi, sitting in one of those old webbed folding chairs, chain-smoking on the rickety old attached deck with the cheap green Astroturf glued to it, hollering at his obese "baby mamma" to get him another can of Milwaukee's Beast while he watches his new team "the Packers" get beat again on his old black-and-white TV with the rabbit ears!
:D


That sounds like a Cajun recollection!
Just move a little closer to the coast in the bayous...waiting for a new single-wide to float in from the latest storm.

whackthepack
10-24-2006, 09:39 AM
"cajunvike" wrote:


"Acumen" wrote:


"whackthepack" wrote:


I was looking back at some old thread and I saw a bunch by that Prophet guy, but he must have become a Packer fan or something because he hasn't posted in awhile.


I was wondering the same thing, he seemed way too intelligent to be a Porker fan.
May he RIP and rise as something bigger and stronger.


I doubt it...that guy was WAY too full of himself.


He's probably living in an old single-wide trailer somewhere in rural Mississippi, sitting in one of those old webbed folding chairs, chain-smoking on the rickety old attached deck with the cheap green Astroturf glued to it, hollering at his obese "baby mamma" to get him another can of Milwaukee's Beast while he watches his new team "the Packers" get beat again on his old black-and-white TV with the rabbit ears!
:D



Sounds like Favre's relatives!

nfl-forums
12-25-2006, 11:48 AM
I wanted to bring this back up - a lot of what I feared is coming true which is sad.
I was really hoping to be wrong on this.
But now with the releasing of Robinson, the knowledge that Childress doesn't talk to his players, and the obvious lack of flexibility on the part of Childress, I can't say that I support him...