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robertsmith
03-15-2006, 02:47 PM
this is on the fins fan board justifing their trade for culpepper



Culpepper Manifesto


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He's ours. A lot of people on this board are very strongly anti-Culpepper. The following should allay your concerns and help get you excited about our new QB.
Culpepper has been the most productive QB in NFL history. When you account for his rushing numbers, his production has been absolutely phenomenal. Over his career, Culpepper has 164 total TDs in 81 games, an average of more than 2 TDs per game. Compare that to the greatest QBs (production-wise) in NFL history:

Marino (429 in 242 games, an average of 1.77)
Favre (408 in 225 games, an average of 1.81)
PManning (253 in 128 games, an average of 1.97)
KWarner (121 in 73 games, an average of 1.65)

In short, Culpepper is the most prolific TD scoring QB on a per game basis in NFL history.

Next, look at total yards (rushing and passing). Culpepper has 22,639 total yards in 81 games, an average of 279.5 yards per game. Compare that to the greatest QBs (production-wise) in NFL history:

Marino (61448 in 242 games, an average of 254 yards per game)
Favre (55360 in 225 games, an average of 246 yards per game)
PManning (33854 in 128 games, an average of 264.5 yards per game)
KWarner (19474 in 73 games, an average of 266.7 yards per game)

So Culpepper is also the most productive QB in terms of yards from scrimmage in NFL history on a per game basis.

Then compare his INTs to the aforementioned guys. Culpepper has 86 in 81 games, an average of 1.06 per game.

Marino (1.04 per game)
Favre (1.13 per game)
PManning (1.015 per game)
KWarner (1.07 per game)

So Daunte is the most productive QB (on a per game basis) in NFL history in terms of both yards and TDs. His interception rate is comparable to or better than any of the guys that are even close (and they're not that close).
His completion percentage of 64.4 is the second-best in NFL history. And that is not in a dink-and-dunk West Coast offense. It's not terribly surprising, as he holds the single season NCAA record for completion percentage at 73.4%. That is with a vertical passing game. In 2004 he completed an incredible 17 of 34 passes thrown more than 31 yards from scrimmage in the air. And no, it was not because of jump balls to Moss -- Moss caught only 3 of them.
Physically, he has a lot more size and speed than any QB should be allowed to have. He's the size of a DE and runs like a fullback. His rushing numbers are second only to Michael Vick among QBs.
Below are my responses to the criticisms I hear from the Culpepper haters:

The Knee

It is legitimate to be concerned about the knee, but this is an area we all need to defer to the doctors on. They are saying he is well ahead of schedule and will play next year. The trade hinges on his passing a physical, so if it goes through, that means the Fins docs say he's OK. The decision on a QB of the future should not hinge on whether he'll be at full strength at the beginning of this year (this goes for Brees too). I can't think of a single QB whose career was ended or derailed by a kneee injury. I've asked in several threads if anyone could think of a single on and nobody came forward with any. In recent years, there has been virtually 100% recovery from knee injuries, including RBs, WRs and CBs who are much more dependent on their speed and cutting ability than a QB (even a mobile one) is. For those positions, the difference between 4.4 speed and 4.6 speed may be difference between star and scrub. Any loss int he ability to plant and cut on a dime fundamentally changes who that player is. Nonetheless, guys like EJames, Jamal Lewis, McGahee, etc. have all come back as good as new. For a QB, even a mobile one, it is much less important. Even if Culpepper goes from a 4.7 40 guy to 4.8 or 4.9, it won't make a huge difference. When RBs are able to come back from hideous knee injuries, it seems like a stretch to say that Culpepper can't or won't.

There is a long list of QBs who have played at a HOF level for years with "bad knees" – Marino, Namath, Elway, Stabler, etc.

The Fumbles

Yes, he does fumble a lot. However, even if you treat the fumbles as interceptions, his numbers are still great. A rushing attempt is akin to a completed pass, albeit usually a short one. They usually come on passing downs and are positive yardage plays. If you look at combined rushing and passing numbers and treat each rushing attempt as a pass attempt and a completion, each rushing TD as a passing TD, and each fumble as an interception, Culpepper's adjusted rating comes out to 92.6, which is a little below Payton Manning's adjusted career rating of 94.3, but is above Carson Palmer (90.9). Gus's 2005 adjusted rating is 69.9. Marino's career adjusted rating is 86.7.
People keep citing to the total fumbles numbers, as opposed to fumbles lost, which is really the relevant number. He's lost an average of about 5 fumbles per season, which is about 2-3 more than most other QBs. BTW, Gus fumbled 13 times last year and lost 4, but I have never heard anyone on this board bitching about that particular aspect of his game. Also, part of the reason Culpepper fumbles is that he runs with the ball, i.e., he actually gets tackled while holding the ball 100+ times per year. If the average RB had those carries instead of Culpepper, he'd fumble a few times too (Ronnie Brown had 4 fumbles in 239 touches and Ricky has 35 fumbles in approximately 2000 touches in his career).

The Boat

Give me a break. He is charged with getting a lap dance and touching the dancer's tushy. Are you such prudes that you find that to be outrageous conduct? Do you think no other NFL players get lap dances? Hell, Clinton Portis had a stripper pole and a bevy of strippers in his house. Do you really think the Fins players would be hesitant to follow his lead because he allegedly touched a stripper's tushy?

The Moss

Culpepper's great numbers are not because of Randy Moss -- any more than Montana/Young were products of Rice. Or any more than Manning is a product of Harrison. Almost every great QB has had some great WRs. In 2004, Mossed missed 3 games and was just a decoy in 2 others. In those 5 games, Culpepper completed 113 of 166 passes (68%) for 1179 yards, 9 TDs and 3 INTs, which comes out to a QB rating of 99. In other games, he was hurt and simply didn't do much. For that season, if you exclude passes thrown to Moss, he completed 330 of 463 passes (71.3%), for 3950 yards and 26 TDs. Even if you assume that none of his INTs were on passes thrown to Moss, which is doubtful, his QB rating excluding Moss was 105.9. Moreover, Moss clearly didn't make Kerry Collins into the Pro Bowler this year, even though he was opposite other quality WRs.

The 2005 INTs

Culpepper had a very bad start to 2005. He had 8 picks in the first 2 games, but had 6 TDs and 4 INTs in the 4 games after that. He was playing for a new OC, with a new set of receivers and an OL that had lost its anchor, Pro Bowl center Matt Birk. The OL was really struggling -- he was sacked 31 times in just over 6 games. You can't disregard his career numbers based on 2 bad games at the start of the season. Even the best QBs will occasionally have a 3-4 INT game.

The Playoffs

True, Minnesota has not been a great team since he's been there, but they have consistently had one of the 5-6 worst defenses in the NFL. From 2000-04, the Vikes never had a defense that was better than 25th in the NFL. Even Marino had better defenses in the late 80s and early 90s. With a few exceptions, Minny had unremarkable running games during that time (especially if you exclude Culpepper's rushing numbers). Still, the Vikes were 39-41 during that time period, which is comparable to Marino's record from 1986-89 when the Fins defenses were bad (30-33). We all know that even a great QB cannot win with a bad defense.
When he's been in the playoffs, he's 2-2. His career playoff numbers are pretty respectable -- 73/134, 980 yds, 8 TDs and 5 INTs (82.3 rating). He had one terrible game against the Giants in 2001, a mediocre one against the Eagles in 2004, and two very good ones against the Saints in '01 and the Packers in '04 (total of 36/60, 618 yds, 7 TDs, 0 INTs).

The Money

Daunte is due to make $2 million this year, less than half of what Gus is due to be paid. Brees will undoubtedly cost several times that amount. The 3 years after this one, Culpepper is due to make around $6 million per year, which isn't much for an upper echelon QB. Brees would have cost more. Some are offended that he reportedly asked for more money, but it isn't clear that he did. His agent did, and then got fired for it. The Vikes owner had publicly said that he would re-evaluate Daunte's contract after this past season, so it wouldn't have been unusual for Daunte to expect him to do that.
The Backups

Some people argue that the fact that his backups have had success in Minny means he is a product of the system. When they make this argument, they usually selectively ignore the numbers of his backups who did not play well. Even so, the reality is that a lot of QBs will do well in a good offensive system, with a decent OL and some talent around him. The Viking backups success is hardly unique. Take a look at the QB ratings of the following backups, with the starter in parentheses:

Steve Young (Montana) 108.9
Steve Bono (Montana) 88.5
Jeff Kemp (Montana) 85.7
Scott Mitchell (Marino) 91.4
Craig Erickson (Marino) 86.3
Elvis Grbac (Young) 87.9
Jeff Garcia (Young) 89.9
Frank Reich (Kelly) 102.3
Jim Sorgi (Manning) 99.1
Matt Cassel (Brady) 89.4
Marc Bulger (Warner) 101.5
Trent Green (Warner) 101.8
Bernie Kosar (Aikman) 92.7
Rodney Peete (Aikman) 102.5
Jason Garrett (Aikman) 83.3
Billy Volek (McNair) 87.4

In addition to those, you have guys like Brooks, Brunell and Hasselbeck who looked good as backups to Favre and drew a lot in trades/FA. Same for Feeley behind McNabb.

None of this means that Culpepper (or any of the QBs listed in parentheses above) are not great QBs. They are. Culpepper has put up incredible numbers and is a proven commodity.

The Vikes improvement in the 2nd half of the season last year was not because Brad Johnson was better. It was because the OL, which was recovering from the loss of Matt Birk and a rookie at G, started to gel as the season went on. The OL gave up 29 sacks in the first 6 games. They gave up only 23 in the next 10 games. The other reason was that the defense improved dramatically in the second half of the season. In the first 7 games, the defense gave up 193 points, which is approximately 28 per game. In the next 9, they gave up 151 points, which comes out to an average of less than 17 per game. Gee, do you think a difference of 11 ppg allowed might make a difference in wins and losses?

Intelligence

First, and not that it is necessarily a true measure of intelligence, but Culpepper scored a 21 on the Wonderlic. This is better than Marino (14), McNabb (16), McNair (15), and a point less than Brett Favre (22). Obviously, the Wonderlic is not a foolproof indicator of the ability to understand NFL defenses.

What are good indicators of the ability to make decisions and read defenses is performance on 3rd downs, when blitzed, and in the red zone. On 3rd downs, NFL teams basically know you are passing and the defenses are at their most creative to stop the pass. Performance on blitzes shows the QBs ability to make decisions under pressure and find the open man in a very short time. Performance in the red zone shows what he can do with a short field in critical situations.

In 2004, Culpepper's performance on 3rd down and blitzes was phenomenal. On 3rd downs, he completed 93 of 134 (69.4%), for 1391 yards, 19 TDs and 3 INTs, which comes out to an absurd QB rating of 133.7. That year, on blitzes, he completed 101 of 159 (63.5%), for 1217, 15 TDs and 1 INT, which is a 115.7 rating. In the red zone, he completed 54 of 88 for 352 yards, 26 TDs and 2 INTs, for a rating of 158.2 (the maximum). These types of numbers simply are not possible if you can't read defenses and make good decisions. Do people think that every defense he faced was pure vanilla?

Yes, last year he struggled, especially in those first 2 games. But his 2003 numbers in these categories are comparable to his 2004 numbers.

3rd down -- 79/121, 1054, 12, 3 (Rating: 115.5)
Blitz -- 60/103, 785, 9, 4 (Rating: 95.3)
Red Zone -- 23/51, 147, 14, 2 (Rating: 126.8 )

For comparison sake, Gus's numbers in these categories last year are:

3rd down -- 63/152, 813, 5, 5 (Rating: 56.2)
Blitz -- 73/162, 866, 5, 4 (Rating: 61.9)
Red Zone -- 28/65, 189, 12, 3 (Rating: 70.8)

Remember, these are in essentially the same Linehan offense (which we say we are keeping).

"Game Management"

A lot of people talk about certain QBs being good game managers. I hear that a lot about Brees and some Gusketeers also like to claim that he was a good game manager. I think that, in most cases, that is just someone's way of pumping up a guy they like on the basis of some intangible that cannot be verified or disproven. Let's face it, with the exception of occasional audibles, the coaches call the plays. Most of what people refer to as game management is really a reflection of the plays called by the coaches, not anything the QB has done.

That said, I think there is some QB "game management" in the way the guy plays on 3rd and 4th down. "Managing the game" basically boils down to how well the QB keeps the chains moving, which basically boils down to converting 3rd and 4th downs. Avoiding turnovers is another aspect of game management.

I was only able to find stats for this for the past 2 seasons. Culpepper's conversion rate on 3rd and 4th downs has been excellent. Over the last 2 years, he has converted 98/196 (50%). This is the same as Payton Manning (119 of 238), but better than Brees (121/264 – 45.8%) and Brady (122/270 – 45.1%). Gus supporters claim he was a good game manager last year, but he converted only 50/160 third and 4th downs last year, which comes out to 31.25%. These numbers do not include plays in which the QB ran for a 1st down on 3rd or 4th down.

The Draft Pick

Giving up a 2nd rounder is a small price to pay (it's not clear to me now whether it is 2006 or 2007). Either way, there will be no one in the draft this year or next who is a proven commodity with Culpepper's talent level. Certainly no one in the 2nd round. The price for high draft pick QBs is around $50 million over 6 years, with more than $20 million of that guaranteed. Culpepper's contract is much more cap friendly. Clearly, the Fins decided that Brees' price tag was simply too high.

Now stop crying about getting a 29-year old, physically dominant QB who has put up numbers over his 7 year career that compare favorably to the best who have ever played the position.

robertsmith
03-15-2006, 03:08 PM
no responses

facts hurt dont they

SharperVikings
03-15-2006, 03:09 PM
Good for them...one thing they did leave out is that he is very inconsistent! one game he can be amazing and the next not! he's choked in 2 of the 3 biggest games of his life...(@nyg and @phi)...he can put up numbers, but what was his record?? thats all that matters!

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 03:10 PM
Nick Saban for President!

SWAYZE74
03-15-2006, 03:11 PM
too bad there isnt some kinda stat for leadership...they might wanna look at that one...on a side note...i think its funny how daunte wont have to learn a new offense...being reunited with linehan and all...dont work too hard daute...ya might sprain your brain...

peace...

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 03:12 PM
Hahahaha

Yeah facts hurt, too bad over half of that is assumption and fallacy as opposed to facts.

Especially regarding his paragraph on Randy Moss.


No doubt they got a good deal, but this is really just more of the same bullshit.

He's basing almost everything off of a QB rating which is widely debated as a good guage because of inconsistencies in the system.

This line : "Yes, he does fumble a lot. However, even if you treat the fumbles as interceptions, his numbers are still great"

Actually made me laugh out loud.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 03:16 PM
"SWAYZE74" wrote:

too bad there isnt some kinda stat for leadership...they might wanna look at that one...on a side note...i think its funny how daunte wont have to learn a new offense...being reunited with linehan and all...dont work too hard daute...ya might sprain your brain...

peace...

Linehan is in St Louis now

Prophet
03-15-2006, 03:18 PM
Facts hurt? There is nothing new in that article that hasn't been gone over hundreds of times in these forums. These stats and summaries have been posted both objectively and subjectively countless times right here at PP.O.

Culpepper's legacy will be determined by what he does with the rest of his career. He could either thrive and go on to become a HOFer or dry up and fade away. I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 03:20 PM
Does it add perspective to understand that the "average" rating was designed, according to circa 1970 standards, to be precisely 66.7

Does it help to know that this is technically only meant to be a passing-efficiency statistic, not really a quarterback rating? It doesn't try to account for other useful quarterbacking activities, like running -- or winning

To learn that Denver's Brian Griese was the NFL's top passer last season, it helps if you didn't leave college early for the draft. Here's the league's official rating formula that made Griese number one:

http://www.bluedonut.com/qbformula.gif


As you can see, Griese's rating was precisely 102.9. So of course he was the top quarterback. 102.9! The guy's on fire! In fact, give the boy some ibuprofen, it looks like he's running a fever

What the hell is the meaning of 102.9? Most sports numbers tell a story. Twelve under par. A first round knockout. A $50,000 fine for calling David Stern a wiener. Batting .300 means you got three hits every ten at bats. But 102.9? Isn't that the FM station that plays Steely Dan all day? Why do we measure the most important player on the football field using a quadratic equation so puzzling it's actually used as the opening problem in the math textbook College Algebra (8th Edition, Addison Wesley, 2000)?

"I pay attention to my rating on third down and in the red zone," says Trent Dilfer, who despite his wobbly 76.6 rating last season quarterbacked the Ravens to a Super Bowl victory. "Otherwise, it's most useful for fantasy football people who are more concerned with numbers than good old-fashioned winning

I could post more but that last paragraph pretty much sums up a QB rating. It also pretty much sums up over half of the guys arguments.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 03:28 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

I could post more but that last paragraph pretty much sums up a QB rating. It also pretty much sums up over half of the guys arguments.


That said, I think there is some QB "game management" in the way the guy plays on 3rd and 4th down. "Managing the game" basically boils down to how well the QB keeps the chains moving, which basically boils down to converting 3rd and 4th downs. Avoiding turnovers is another aspect of game management.

I was only able to find stats for this for the past 2 seasons. Culpepper's conversion rate on 3rd and 4th downs has been excellent. Over the last 2 years, he has converted 98/196 (50%). This is the same as Payton Manning (119 of 238), but better than Brees (121/264 – 45.8%) and Brady (122/270 – 45.1%). Gus supporters claim he was a good game manager last year, but he converted only 50/160 third and 4th downs last year, which comes out to 31.25%. These numbers do not include plays in which the QB ran for a 1st down on 3rd or 4th down.

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 03:33 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

I could post more but that last paragraph pretty much sums up a QB rating. It also pretty much sums up over half of the guys arguments.


That said, I think there is some QB "game management" in the way the guy plays on 3rd and 4th down. "Managing the game" basically boils down to how well the QB keeps the chains moving, which basically boils down to converting 3rd and 4th downs. Avoiding turnovers is another aspect of game management.

I was only able to find stats for this for the past 2 seasons. Culpepper's conversion rate on 3rd and 4th downs has been excellent. Over the last 2 years, he has converted 98/196 (50%). This is the same as Payton Manning (119 of 238), but better than Brees (121/264 – 45.8%) and Brady (122/270 – 45.1%). Gus supporters claim he was a good game manager last year, but he converted only 50/160 third and 4th downs last year, which comes out to 31.25%. These numbers do not include plays in which the QB ran for a 1st down on 3rd or 4th down.

Funny how he was only able to find the stats of the last two seasons one of which was 2004 that included Moss who made up near half of our third down percentage conversions.

Also funny is while he mentions Tom Brady and Peyton Manning Those two guys are WINNING and in the playoffs every year....if not more.....kind of funny how that works.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 03:37 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

I could post more but that last paragraph pretty much sums up a QB rating. It also pretty much sums up over half of the guys arguments.


That said, I think there is some QB "game management" in the way the guy plays on 3rd and 4th down. "Managing the game" basically boils down to how well the QB keeps the chains moving, which basically boils down to converting 3rd and 4th downs. Avoiding turnovers is another aspect of game management.

I was only able to find stats for this for the past 2 seasons. Culpepper's conversion rate on 3rd and 4th downs has been excellent. Over the last 2 years, he has converted 98/196 (50%). This is the same as Payton Manning (119 of 238), but better than Brees (121/264 – 45.8%) and Brady (122/270 – 45.1%). Gus supporters claim he was a good game manager last year, but he converted only 50/160 third and 4th downs last year, which comes out to 31.25%. These numbers do not include plays in which the QB ran for a 1st down on 3rd or 4th down.

Funny how he was only able to find the stats of the last two seasons one of which was 2004 that included Moss who made up near half of our third down percentage conversions.

Also funny is while he mentions Tom Brady and Peyton Manning Those two guys are WINNING and in the playoffs every year....if not more.....kind of funny how that works.

However you want to look at it, the Vikes downgraded at QB

Thanks for the gift

<--- Phins fan :grin:

Prophet
03-15-2006, 03:39 PM
Yeah, but my dad can beat up your dad.

PatWilliamsBelly, funny handle, cracks me up every time I see it.

BBQ Platypus
03-15-2006, 03:44 PM
"SharperVikings" wrote:

Good for them...one thing they did leave out is that he is very inconsistent! one game he can be amazing and the next not! he's choked in 2 of the 3 biggest games of his life...(@nyg and @phi)...he can put up numbers, but what was his record?? thats all that matters!

We're losing games...it can ONLY be the quarterback's fault! Let's trade him and basically ignore everything else by getting the 9th or 10th-best players free agency has to offer!

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 03:48 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

I could post more but that last paragraph pretty much sums up a QB rating. It also pretty much sums up over half of the guys arguments.


That said, I think there is some QB "game management" in the way the guy plays on 3rd and 4th down. "Managing the game" basically boils down to how well the QB keeps the chains moving, which basically boils down to converting 3rd and 4th downs. Avoiding turnovers is another aspect of game management.

I was only able to find stats for this for the past 2 seasons. Culpepper's conversion rate on 3rd and 4th downs has been excellent. Over the last 2 years, he has converted 98/196 (50%). This is the same as Payton Manning (119 of 238), but better than Brees (121/264 – 45.8%) and Brady (122/270 – 45.1%). Gus supporters claim he was a good game manager last year, but he converted only 50/160 third and 4th downs last year, which comes out to 31.25%. These numbers do not include plays in which the QB ran for a 1st down on 3rd or 4th down.

Funny how he was only able to find the stats of the last two seasons one of which was 2004 that included Moss who made up near half of our third down percentage conversions.

Also funny is while he mentions Tom Brady and Peyton Manning Those two guys are WINNING and in the playoffs every year....if not more.....kind of funny how that works.

However you want to look at it, the Vikes downgraded at QB

Thanks for the gift

<--- Phins fan :grin:

Wow, what a convincing and wonderful rebuttal.

Trust me, if your sorry ass team can't win a superbowl with the greatest QB of all time, then Daunte Culpepper isn't going to do you much better.

You did get a steal no doubt, you guys would have pissed your second round pick away anyways. So this is a safe deal for you. Like I said before the guy wont play much this year, so you wont get to enjoy Culpepper as a full time starter until 2007.

Either way if he flops and his EXPLODED knee gives way, all you spent is a 2nd round pick. If everything works out good and you he will make fantasy owners happy and your team still wont do shit in the playoffs....and all it cost you was a second round pick.

Basically you will be just like you always are. Mediocre only with good stats.

Enjoy, don't forget to take a mint on your way out. You get one free with the purchase of a Daunte, just so after your done tossing his salad no one has to know.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 03:58 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

I could post more but that last paragraph pretty much sums up a QB rating. It also pretty much sums up over half of the guys arguments.


That said, I think there is some QB "game management" in the way the guy plays on 3rd and 4th down. "Managing the game" basically boils down to how well the QB keeps the chains moving, which basically boils down to converting 3rd and 4th downs. Avoiding turnovers is another aspect of game management.

I was only able to find stats for this for the past 2 seasons. Culpepper's conversion rate on 3rd and 4th downs has been excellent. Over the last 2 years, he has converted 98/196 (50%). This is the same as Payton Manning (119 of 238), but better than Brees (121/264 – 45.8%) and Brady (122/270 – 45.1%). Gus supporters claim he was a good game manager last year, but he converted only 50/160 third and 4th downs last year, which comes out to 31.25%. These numbers do not include plays in which the QB ran for a 1st down on 3rd or 4th down.

Funny how he was only able to find the stats of the last two seasons one of which was 2004 that included Moss who made up near half of our third down percentage conversions.

Also funny is while he mentions Tom Brady and Peyton Manning Those two guys are WINNING and in the playoffs every year....if not more.....kind of funny how that works.

However you want to look at it, the Vikes downgraded at QB

Thanks for the gift

<--- Phins fan :grin:

Wow, what a convincing and wonderful rebuttal.

Trust me, if your sorry jiggly butt team can't win a superbowl with the greatest QB of all time, then Daunte Culpepper isn't going to do you much better.

You did get a steal no doubt, you guys would have pissed your second round pick away anyways. So this is a safe deal for you. Like I said before the guy wont play much this year, so you wont get to enjoy Culpepper as a full time starter until 2007.

Either way if he flops and his EXPLODED knee gives way, all you spent is a 2nd round pick. If everything works out good and you he will make fantasy owners happy and your team still wont do pooh in the playoffs....and all it cost you was a second round pick.

Basically you will be just like you always are. Mediocre only with good stats.

Enjoy, don't forget to take a mint on your way out. You get one free with the purchase of a Daunte, just so after your done tossing his salad no one has to know.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

We'll always be mediocre? I think you're forgetting we're still up 2-0 with superbowls over your team (and you must have forgotten we beat you in the superbowl). It's ok... i'd want to block that out too.

We'll see what happens this year though :) I'd be very surprised if we don't make the playoffs. Daunte will start 10-12 games this year... trust me on that.

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 04:06 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:


I could post more but that last paragraph pretty much sums up a QB rating. It also pretty much sums up over half of the guys arguments.


That said, I think there is some QB "game management" in the way the guy plays on 3rd and 4th down. "Managing the game" basically boils down to how well the QB keeps the chains moving, which basically boils down to converting 3rd and 4th downs. Avoiding turnovers is another aspect of game management.

I was only able to find stats for this for the past 2 seasons. Culpepper's conversion rate on 3rd and 4th downs has been excellent. Over the last 2 years, he has converted 98/196 (50%). This is the same as Payton Manning (119 of 238), but better than Brees (121/264 – 45.8%) and Brady (122/270 – 45.1%). Gus supporters claim he was a good game manager last year, but he converted only 50/160 third and 4th downs last year, which comes out to 31.25%. These numbers do not include plays in which the QB ran for a 1st down on 3rd or 4th down.

Funny how he was only able to find the stats of the last two seasons one of which was 2004 that included Moss who made up near half of our third down percentage conversions.

Also funny is while he mentions Tom Brady and Peyton Manning Those two guys are WINNING and in the playoffs every year....if not more.....kind of funny how that works.

However you want to look at it, the Vikes downgraded at QB

Thanks for the gift

<--- Phins fan :grin:

Wow, what a convincing and wonderful rebuttal.

Trust me, if your sorry jiggly butt team can't win a superbowl with the greatest QB of all time, then Daunte Culpepper isn't going to do you much better.

You did get a steal no doubt, you guys would have pissed your second round pick away anyways. So this is a safe deal for you. Like I said before the guy wont play much this year, so you wont get to enjoy Culpepper as a full time starter until 2007.

Either way if he flops and his EXPLODED knee gives way, all you spent is a 2nd round pick. If everything works out good and you he will make fantasy owners happy and your team still wont do pooh in the playoffs....and all it cost you was a second round pick.

Basically you will be just like you always are. Mediocre only with good stats.

Enjoy, don't forget to take a mint on your way out. You get one free with the purchase of a Daunte, just so after your done tossing his salad no one has to know.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

We'll always be mediocre? I think you're forgetting we're still up 2-0 with superbowls over your team (and you must have forgotten we beat you in the superbowl). It's ok... i'd want to block that out too.

We'll see what happens this year though :) I'd be very surprised if we don't make the playoffs. Daunte will start 10-12 games this year... trust me on that.

I guarantee he will not start that many games. Make sure you remember to come back and collect your crow when he plays the last 5 games of the season for you guys.

Trust me I didn't forget you won the superbowl 32 years ago, probably before you were born. Keep in mind I never said my team isn't mediocre :grin: I would be the first to admit we always underachieve.

I hope you do make the playoffs. 9-7 last year with who you had, you have a good coach.....besides if we want to see Daunte play you will have to make the playoffs. The guy won't be ready until the end of the season.

whiteviking24
03-15-2006, 04:23 PM
Look at Randy's numbers here and compare them to his numbers in Oakland.... Not the same topic at all, JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT !

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 04:28 PM
"Yes, he does fumble a lot. However, even if you treat the fumbles as interceptions, his numbers are still great. A rushing attempt is akin to a completed pass, albeit usually a short one. They usually come on passing downs and are positive yardage plays. If you look at combined rushing and passing numbers and treat each rushing attempt as a pass attempt and a completion, each rushing TD as a passing TD, and each fumble as an interception, Culpepper's adjusted rating comes out to 92.6"

This is also flawed logic. Your definately tipping the equation in your favor when you are chalking up each rush attempt TO A COMPLETION! LMAO WTF!!!????

Oh well he only turned the ball over 167 TIMES!!! 32 more times then he scored......BUT IF we just go ahead and count every rush attempt as a pass completion, it all evens out in the wash....LOL Jesus.

Forget that the first part of the equation weights on the QB rating more then any other part then I guess you have a real solid point.

This guy is not stating facts, he is taking statistics and plugging them into his own equations to DOWNPLAY the major problems Daunte has.

WE KNOW he can throw the ball, we know he COULD run, we know he is accurate........but we also know he turned the ball over 167times, we also know that 46% of his TD passes were to Randy Moss, 32% of his completions were to Randy Moss, 41% of his third down completions were to Randy Moss, and when Moss was out of the equation he struggled.

He is a good QB who has problems with certain things that he may or may not overcome. As far as this article goes, this list of FACTS, it leaves way more questions then it does answers and it makes use of some serious selective fallacy to try and write off MAJOR concerns as minor boo boo's

If the point of the article is to take a scientific approach to the situation it FAILED. If the point is to say "calm down guys we got a great deal" Then I say it is true, I also say it is a waste of time when he could have just said "calm down guys we got a great deal."

More then likely it is an attempt to overload the reader with information much of which is inaccurate knowing full well they will not take the time to READ the entire thing or even check to see if he was right.

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 04:29 PM
"whiteviking24" wrote:

Look at Randy's numbers here and compare them to his numbers in Oakland.... Not the same topic at all, JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT !

Doesn't change the point, they are dependant on each other.

Randy still managed great numbers, not as great. So maybe Randy doesn't need Daunte persay but a QB that will just throw the ball up there and let him make a play. Maybe Daunte doesn't need Randy Perse just a WR who will take the thinking out of the QB position and dummy it down so he can just throw the ball up in the vicinity and let someone else make a play.

Maybe Chris Chambers is that guy, I am guessing since Chirs Chambers doesn't force the defensive schemes to change like Randy does, that he isn't. We won't know until we see it on the field. I always thought Culpepper could get out of Moss's shadow. He has the talent. When given the opportunity thus far he has failed. Hopefully in Miami he can do that.

VikesfaninWis
03-15-2006, 04:33 PM
This is kinda what makes me laught:

Yes, he does fumble a lot. However, even if you treat the fumbles as interceptions, his numbers are still great.

Sorry Fins fans, fumbles are in a whole different category that Int's.. I am also sorry to say that if Pepp came into the league without Moss, and Carter he would have done much worse then he did. He was extremely lucky to have that kind of talent at WR.

Futhermore, if the Vikings front office plans on using that pick from the Dolphins in a trade, they should be picking up a great player that is more adapted to the WCO, then Culpepper. No doubt that the Fins got a good deal, but just because you people got a good deal, doesn't mean you got to jump on bandwagons, and try and act like Pepp is a QB God. When these people were probably with the rest of the NFL population last season saying Pepp sucks..

whiteviking24
03-15-2006, 04:34 PM
Yea, if we just treat rushing attempts like pass completions it's all good.

I wonder what some running backs QB ratings are? LOL

tarkenton10
03-15-2006, 04:51 PM
Del - You can't argue with people set on their agenda. DC is a good QB in the regular season as long as we are in the lead. If he has to run a two minute drill though he chokes like a dog chewing on a wishbone!!!!

DC will put up stats but he can't lead a team to a victory if they are losing in the fourth quarter. Someone give me a stat that shows DC with a last minute victory. I can only think of one time in his career, that is scary.

All this is moot anyway DC is gone!!!!

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 04:54 PM
"tarkenton10" wrote:

Del - You can't argue with people set on their agenda. DC is a good QB in the regular season as long as we are in the lead. If he has to run a two minute drill though he chokes like a dog chewing on a wishbone!!!!

DC will put up stats but he can't lead a team to a victory if they are losing in the fourth quarter. Someone give me a stat that shows DC with a last minute victory. I can only think of one time in his career, that is scary.

All this is moot anyway DC is gone!!!!

True Tark I should know better. I don't mind people thinking he is great, but why twist reality in a vein attempt to proove it? Why lie to proove it.

If you like him and think he is great, that is all you need. I think he is great because I say so, we are fans thats what we do.

Just don't try to convince me of that shit by pulling things from the sky and trying to sell them as fact.

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 05:00 PM
What I don't get is why if you are a fan of Culpepper to the point of arguing with everyone about everything do you not feel good for the guy?

He wasn't happy here. If that was because of management or himself who knows. Now he gets to play near his home, he gets out of the snow and onto the beaches.

His fans should be happy for him. It's like that saying about better to have love and lost then not loved at all or some thing LOL. I mean why sit here and constantly bash the team over ONE guy. Be happy for that one guy and support your team or find a new one.

whiteviking24
03-15-2006, 05:09 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

What I don't get is why if you are a fan of Culpepper to the point of arguing with everyone about everything do you not feel good for the guy?

He wasn't happy here. If that was because of management or himself who knows. Now he gets to play near his home, he gets out of the snow and onto the beaches.

His fans should be happy for him. It's like that saying about better to have love and lost then not loved at all or some thing LOL. I mean why sit here and constantly bash the team over ONE guy. Be happy for that one guy and support your team or find a new one.

AMEN and moving forward.

digital420
03-15-2006, 05:15 PM
hide the facts with smoke all you want..

D.c is a great QB..

he's talanted.. he's big.. he's got a GREAT arm..

his biggest problems.

holding onto the ball... when he runs, or when he's escaping D's he has a tendency to do more then he should and wammo.. ball is loose.

forcing plays when he can't read what's going on.. when the plays were called.. he would look over the D and run THAT play.. if he didn't see something over on R.m he would force that play even if it was into a mass of opposite jersied players.. why? becuase he has problems reacting / thinking quickly..

Even with those 2 minus's he's a GREAT qb!! good luck with him, I really do hope he brings some spark down there.. and when he comes up here.. watch the Int # grow!!

DiGiTaL

cajunvike
03-15-2006, 05:32 PM
"robertsmith" wrote:

no responses

facts hurt dont they

You posted this article...AT 7 SOMETHING IN THE MORNING...OF COURSE, YOU AREN'T GOING TO GET MANY RESPONSES....DUMBS$$!!!

That being said...yes, the Fins got a great deal...but if we win a Super Bowl in spite of what we have given up, I won't give a crap about losing any of those players...heck, New England dumped Bledsoe (a first rounder when he was drafted) and replaced him with a sixth-rounder (Brady) who played above anyone's expectations. We could easily get someone in this year's draft that could be the next Tom Brady...or Brad could catch lightning in a bottle and lead us to the championship...or we could pick up Schaub and he could lead us to the championship. The fact is that NO ONE KNOWS what will happen...and that is the beauty of the NFL!

Enjoy Pep...I am still a fan of him and wish him well. But the fact that your Fins got a good deal is NO REASON to bash us Vikings fans. IF that is your sole motivation for posting this article, then you can just get the F*** out of here...we don't need your SH!T !!!

Redrouster
03-15-2006, 05:54 PM
DC was a great QB, however, his knee will never let him be the same quarterback. When is the earliest projected return? October? I don't take anything away from his ablilities but he is a BIG risk that we do not need. Take his last season foul up and build on that issue thinking about the knee reconstruction, he had to go.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 06:00 PM
"cajunvike" wrote:

Enjoy Pep...I am still a fan of him and wish him well. But the fact that your Fins got a good deal is NO REASON to bash us Vikings fans. IF that is your sole motivation for posting this article, then you can just get the F*** out of here...we don't need your SH!T !!!

That was pretty moronic... i didn't "bash" anyone. I thanked you for the gift if I recall correctly. Learn to read there spaz.

cajunvike
03-15-2006, 06:00 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

I could post more but that last paragraph pretty much sums up a QB rating. It also pretty much sums up over half of the guys arguments.


That said, I think there is some QB "game management" in the way the guy plays on 3rd and 4th down. "Managing the game" basically boils down to how well the QB keeps the chains moving, which basically boils down to converting 3rd and 4th downs. Avoiding turnovers is another aspect of game management.

I was only able to find stats for this for the past 2 seasons. Culpepper's conversion rate on 3rd and 4th downs has been excellent. Over the last 2 years, he has converted 98/196 (50%). This is the same as Payton Manning (119 of 238), but better than Brees (121/264 – 45.8%) and Brady (122/270 – 45.1%). Gus supporters claim he was a good game manager last year, but he converted only 50/160 third and 4th downs last year, which comes out to 31.25%. These numbers do not include plays in which the QB ran for a 1st down on 3rd or 4th down.

Funny how he was only able to find the stats of the last two seasons one of which was 2004 that included Moss who made up near half of our third down percentage conversions.

Also funny is while he mentions Tom Brady and Peyton Manning Those two guys are WINNING and in the playoffs every year....if not more.....kind of funny how that works.

However you want to look at it, the Vikes downgraded at QB

Thanks for the gift

<--- Phins fan :grin:

Let's see...your screen name is PatWilliamsBelly...your favorite player is Brett Favre...and you just claimed to be a Phins fan???

Either you are a troll or a thoroughly confused IDIOT...I vote for the latter.

Like I said before, enjoy Pep playing in Miami...I wish him well, but he will most likely follow in Marino's footsteps and never win a Super Bowl...too bad for him and for all you Phins fans! :lol:

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 06:04 PM
"cajunvike" wrote:

Let's see...your screen name is PatWilliamsBelly...your favorite player is Brett Favre...and you just claimed to be a Phins fan???

Either you are a troll or a thoroughly confused IDIOT...I vote for the latter.

Like I said before, enjoy Pep playing in Miami...I wish him well, but he will most likely follow in Marino's footsteps and never win a Super Bowl...too bad for him and for all you Phins fans! :lol:

Wow another shot at me... I think it's pretty clear who the confused idiot is here :roll:

whackthepack
03-15-2006, 06:10 PM
As Denny Green likes to say the proof is in the pudding!

Record with our franchise QB for the last 5 years!

2001 5 - 11 do not make the playoffs (Denny Green coach)

2002 6 - 10 do not make the playoffs (Tice Coach)

2003 9 - 7 do not make the playoffs

2004 8 - 8 we made the playoffs

2005 9 - 7 do not make playoffs (team start 2 - 5 with Daunte as QB) finishes 7 - 2 with Brad as QB


5 years 1 playoff season as a wild card

0 Superbowl's

0 division titles

1 great playoff win over the Packers (gotta love that)


Is having a great QB everything if the team does not win a division title and makes the playoffs once.

Hope the next 5 years is better because there is nothing in the last 5 years to get excited about (except beating the Packers)!

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 06:11 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"cajunvike" wrote:

Let's see...your screen name is PatWilliamsBelly...your favorite player is Brett Favre...and you just claimed to be a Phins fan???

Either you are a troll or a thoroughly confused IDIOT...I vote for the latter.

Like I said before, enjoy Pep playing in Miami...I wish him well, but he will most likely follow in Marino's footsteps and never win a Super Bowl...too bad for him and for all you Phins fans! :lol:

Wow another shot at me... I think it's pretty clear who the confused idiot is here :roll:

Yes this guy is Amth, Robertsmith, and PatWilliamsBelly. According to IP address. So either three different known trolls post from one IP or this guy is just skirting the system.

Since the post was posted under the screen name RobertSmith and then responded to under his other name, I expect Amth RobertSmith and PWB are all the same, never fear though it IS CLEAR who the idiot is and we will take proper action.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 06:13 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"cajunvike" wrote:

Let's see...your screen name is PatWilliamsBelly...your favorite player is Brett Favre...and you just claimed to be a Phins fan???

Either you are a troll or a thoroughly confused IDIOT...I vote for the latter.

Like I said before, enjoy Pep playing in Miami...I wish him well, but he will most likely follow in Marino's footsteps and never win a Super Bowl...too bad for him and for all you Phins fans! :lol:

Wow another shot at me... I think it's pretty clear who the confused idiot is here :roll:

Yes this guy is Amth, Robertsmith, and PatWilliamsBelly. According to IP address. So either three different known trolls post from one IP or this guy is just skirting the system.

Since the post was posted under the screen name RobertSmith and then responded to under his other name, I expect Amth RobertSmith and PWB are all the same, never fear though it IS CLEAR who the idiot is and we will take proper action.

omg not this again...

I work with Amth, which is why we have the same IP address (we're behind a proxy). I went through this before. When i post from home (which is rare) my IP is different.

stjmnsota
03-15-2006, 06:18 PM
Wow. If I didn't know it before, I know it now. Don't get into a word fight with Del Rio. Reading this, he dang near made ME cry.

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 06:18 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"cajunvike" wrote:

Let's see...your screen name is PatWilliamsBelly...your favorite player is Brett Favre...and you just claimed to be a Phins fan???

Either you are a troll or a thoroughly confused IDIOT...I vote for the latter.

Like I said before, enjoy Pep playing in Miami...I wish him well, but he will most likely follow in Marino's footsteps and never win a Super Bowl...too bad for him and for all you Phins fans! :lol:

Wow another shot at me... I think it's pretty clear who the confused idiot is here :roll:

Yes this guy is Amth, Robertsmith, and PatWilliamsBelly. According to IP address. So either three different known trolls post from one IP or this guy is just skirting the system.

Since the post was posted under the screen name RobertSmith and then responded to under his other name, I expect Amth RobertSmith and PWB are all the same, never fear though it IS CLEAR who the idiot is and we will take proper action.

omg not this again...

I work with Amth, which is why we have the same IP address (we're behind a proxy). I went through this before. When i post from home (which is rare) my IP is different.

I'm sure you do.

I'm also sure you work with RobertSmith....which is the account you used to post this, egg people on with, then you vanished only to continue trolling with PatWilliamsBelly.

Don't worry it will be discussed. Nothing is done from the hip, but I imagine this new style of posting that is very similar to Amth's coupled with your continued flip flopping between RobertSmith and PWB after being told to stick to one will play a part.

There is no way to prove your telling the truth about AMTH and the more these types of threads there are the more likely it is the Mods will see through that. I didn't buy it the first time around.

A dolphins fan, that loves Favre that just so happens to work with a known troll that has been banned for posting similar material. Who likes the site enough to beg to stay by making up bullshit stories about Amth...... yeah.

Guess what......when I post from home......my IP address is different too LIKE OMG!!!! :shock:

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 06:22 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"cajunvike" wrote:

Let's see...your screen name is PatWilliamsBelly...your favorite player is Brett Favre...and you just claimed to be a Phins fan???

Either you are a troll or a thoroughly confused IDIOT...I vote for the latter.

Like I said before, enjoy Pep playing in Miami...I wish him well, but he will most likely follow in Marino's footsteps and never win a Super Bowl...too bad for him and for all you Phins fans! :lol:

Wow another shot at me... I think it's pretty clear who the confused idiot is here :roll:

Yes this guy is Amth, Robertsmith, and PatWilliamsBelly. According to IP address. So either three different known trolls post from one IP or this guy is just skirting the system.

Since the post was posted under the screen name RobertSmith and then responded to under his other name, I expect Amth RobertSmith and PWB are all the same, never fear though it IS CLEAR who the idiot is and we will take proper action.

omg not this again...

I work with Amth, which is why we have the same IP address (we're behind a proxy). I went through this before. When i post from home (which is rare) my IP is different.

I'm sure you do.

I'm also sure you work with RobertSmith....which is the account you used to post this, egg people on with, then you vanished only to continue trolling with PatWilliamsBelly.

Don't worry it will be discussed. Nothing is done from the hip, but I imagine this new style of posting that is very similar to Amth's coupled with your continued flip flopping between RobertSmith and PWB after being told to stick to one will play a part.

There is no way to prove your telling the truth about AMTH and the more these types of threads there are the more likely it is the Mods will see through that. I didn't buy it the first time around.

A dolphins fan, that loves Favre that just so happens to work with a known troll that has been banned for posting similar material. Who likes the site enough to beg to stay by making up kaka del toro stories about Amth...... yeah.

Search my past posts... this has already been dealt with before :roll:

Believe me, I have better things to do than create 3 AE's, and post a conversation with myself :lol:

I post on a dolphins site (finheaven.com), I found that article which I showed to robertsmith (amth), and he posted it... I came here to see and discuss the reaction... nothing more, nothing less.

We work together which is why we have the same IP address...

As far as the same posting styles... not even close. I use punctuation/capitalization! :lol:

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 06:26 PM
Lets clear this up then.

Robertsmith started this thread......

"I post on a dolphins site (finheaven.com), I found that article which I showed to robertsmith (amth)"

And Robertsmith is Amth....this is what your telling me...keeping in mind I am looking at your post history as we speak.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 06:28 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

Lets clear this up then.

Robertsmith started this thread......

"I post on a dolphins site (finheaven.com), I found that article which I showed to robertsmith (amth)"

And Robertsmith is Amth....this is what your telling me...keeping in mind I am looking at your post history as we speak.

How about we take this to PM instead of airing out everyone's business for all to see :wink:

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 06:36 PM
The trade how now been made official btw... the Phins team doctor's liked what they saw with how Pep's knee is healing :D

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 06:37 PM
Well you and your "co-worker" effect everyone with your trolling.

You create a post saying we should trade Culpepper. Amth responds in said post helping along.

Robertsmith creates a post about how great he is....you help it along. It effects everyone.

But I will refrain from commenting on this in the open forumn from now on.

ItalianStallion
03-15-2006, 06:42 PM
These are the only culpepper stats that matter:

1 division championship in 6 years in a bad division.

2 playoff appearance in 6 years as a starter.

Choking in NY '00, CHI (all the time), AZ '03, Washington '04, PHI '05 a damn near every big game he has played in.

God knows how many game losing turnovers.

DCPologirl
03-15-2006, 07:09 PM
Yes I think we can all learn from this....don't ever get in a words war with Del Rio, you will not win LOL and secondly quite frankly you guys those of us who are devastated by Culpepper leaving and wish to express that....stop telling us to get over it. I will be over it when I am over it. And PPO is the one place on the planet that I should feel free to express my opinion about it. So you get over it. I will be over it when I am and not a moment sooner. So take this :crybaby:

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 07:10 PM
"DCPologirl" wrote:

Yes I think we can all learn from this....don't ever get in a words war with Del Rio, you will not win LOL and secondly quite frankly you guys those of us who are devastated by Culpepper leaving and wish to express that....stop telling us to get over it. I will be over it when I am over it. And PPO is the one place on the planet that I should feel free to express my opinion about it. So you get over it. I will be over it when I am and not a moment sooner. So take this :crybaby:

Just for the record:

I don't think his fans should "get over it" I just think they should be happy for him personally that he will get to play near his home, in better weather, and hopefully for a team he feels good about playing with. :grin:

DCPologirl
03-15-2006, 07:14 PM
Oh I know Del that second part wasn't directed at you only the part where I said don't get into a word argument with Del you won't win. You should have been a lawyer lol you argue better than almost anyone I have ever seen lol I love it! :lol:

Prophet
03-15-2006, 07:27 PM
"DCPologirl" wrote:

...quite frankly you guys those of us who are devastated by Culpepper leaving and wish to express that....stop telling us to get over it. I will be over it when I am over it. And PPO is the one place on the planet that I should feel free to express my opinion about it. So you get over it. I will be over it when I am and not a moment sooner. So take this :crybaby:

Get over it. :lol:

DCPologirl
03-15-2006, 07:30 PM
"Prophet" wrote:

"DCPologirl" wrote:

...quite frankly you guys those of us who are devastated by Culpepper leaving and wish to express that....stop telling us to get over it. I will be over it when I am over it. And PPO is the one place on the planet that I should feel free to express my opinion about it. So you get over it. I will be over it when I am and not a moment sooner. So take this :crybaby:

Get over it. :lol:

LMAO :lol:

V4L
03-15-2006, 07:32 PM
Hang in there DC!

Rookie444
03-15-2006, 07:33 PM
I just have one thing to say......who cares. He's gone, get over it. Did anybody bring up Chavous or BWill when we lost them? NO. BWill is a lot more valuable than pep, but everyone just wants to talk about pep. Get off his nuts, he's gone, get over it, move on.

DCPologirl
03-15-2006, 07:34 PM
"Vikez4Lyfe" wrote:

Hang in there DC! aww that's why I love you Vikez...I am so sad lol I am tired of people already telling me to get over it. It took me 5 months to get over Randy lol

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 07:35 PM
"What do you mean stop? You'd rather have an overpaid, average QB who fumbles every 5th snap? Why not ship him out now and cut your losses"

Hey PatWilliamsBelly.....you said this about Culpepper in a thread you started that was locked because of trolling. Speaking of course of last season where you were trying to knock on Culpepper and promote Brad at a time where most fans still held Culpepper in high regards.

So I just want to ask you, since you thanked us for the gift. What has changed in your mind about Culpepper? I mean how does a guy go from being bashed and abused verbally in your Trade Culpepper thread to a "However you want to look at it, the Vikes downgraded at QB

Thanks for the gift" I mean wow, damn just last year out of the kindness of your heart I am sure you started a thread saying we should trade Culpepper and start Brad, because Culpepper was no good. Now today I'm sure out of the kindness of your heart your telling us We downgraded at QB? How does that work? Is it seasonal?

Just curious. I mean were you just playing around hoping to single handedly convince the fans that he needed to be traded hoping deep inside that we would spur a movement that would cause management to trade him to your beloved Dolphins......was that the master plan?

DCPologirl
03-15-2006, 07:35 PM
"Rookie444" wrote:

I just have one thing to say......who cares. He's gone, get over it. Did anybody bring up Chavous or BWill when we lost them? NO. BWill is a lot more valuable than pep, but everyone just wants to talk about pep. Get off his nuts, he's gone, get over it, move on.

Here we go :roll: I will say again I will get over it when I get over it lol

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 07:41 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"What do you mean stop? You'd rather have an overpaid, average QB who fumbles every 5th snap? Why not ship him out now and cut your losses"

Hey PatWilliamsBelly.....you said this about Culpepper in a thread you started that was locked because of trolling. Speaking of course of last season where you were trying to knock on Culpepper and promote Brad at a time where most fans still held Culpepper in high regards.

So I just want to ask you, since you thanked us for the gift. What has changed in your mind about Culpepper? I mean how does a guy go from being bashed and abused verbally in your Trade Culpepper thread to a "However you want to look at it, the Vikes downgraded at QB

Thanks for the gift" I mean wow, gol 'darnit just last year out of the kindness of your heart I am sure you started a thread saying we should trade Culpepper and start Brad, because Culpepper was no good. Now today I'm sure out of the kindness of your heart your telling us We downgraded at QB? How does that work? Is it seasonal?

Just curious. I mean were you just playing around hoping to single handedly convince the fans that he needed to be traded hoping deep inside that we would spur a movement that would cause management to trade him to your beloved Dolphins......was that the master plan?

The difference he's on my team now... and I have to support our starting QB.

RK.
03-15-2006, 07:49 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:


The difference he's on my team now... and I have to support our starting QB.
I don't blame the Fins for trying to make the best of it. We all had to year after year as he fumbled away our playoff hopes and dreams. They are just getting a good start on the use of stats to salve the wounds of disappointment they will suffer year after year as Pep fumbles and throws away their dreams of a Super Bowl appearance. I would suggest that the Fins guys do a search of the archives for OHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOO! on this forum. It will give you some ideas of how to deal with disappointment. :razz:

viks_fan21
03-15-2006, 07:53 PM
Culpepper also is one of the few players in the NFL to average over 1 fumble a game.

That quote from wikipedia.org pretty much says it all.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 08:01 PM
"RK." wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:


The difference he's on my team now... and I have to support our starting QB.
I don't blame the Fins for trying to make the best of it. We all had to year after year as he fumbled away our playoff hopes and dreams. They are just getting a good start on the use of stats to salve the wounds of disappointment they will suffer year after year as Pep fumbles and throws away their dreams of a Super Bowl appearance. I would suggest that the Fins guys do a search of the archives for OHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOO! on this forum. It will give you some ideas of how to deal with disappointment. :razz:

I'll admit that I wanted Brees instead of Culpepper, but after I read that article it made me pretty optimistic about what he can bring to our team. We already have a great set of leaders on the team, so he shouldn't have to worry about carrying that load. I think that he'll feel comfortable playing out of his home state and once his knee is healed he'll be back to his 2004 form. *crosses fingers*

ItalianStallion
03-15-2006, 08:02 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"What do you mean stop? You'd rather have an overpaid, average QB who fumbles every 5th snap? Why not ship him out now and cut your losses"

Hey PatWilliamsBelly.....you said this about Culpepper in a thread you started that was locked because of trolling. Speaking of course of last season where you were trying to knock on Culpepper and promote Brad at a time where most fans still held Culpepper in high regards.

So I just want to ask you, since you thanked us for the gift. What has changed in your mind about Culpepper? I mean how does a guy go from being bashed and abused verbally in your Trade Culpepper thread to a "However you want to look at it, the Vikes downgraded at QB

Thanks for the gift" I mean wow, gol 'darnit just last year out of the kindness of your heart I am sure you started a thread saying we should trade Culpepper and start Brad, because Culpepper was no good. Now today I'm sure out of the kindness of your heart your telling us We downgraded at QB? How does that work? Is it seasonal?

Just curious. I mean were you just playing around hoping to single handedly convince the fans that he needed to be traded hoping deep inside that we would spur a movement that would cause management to trade him to your beloved Dolphins......was that the master plan?

The difference he's on my team now... and I have to support our starting QB.

How does that change his ability as a player?

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 08:07 PM
"ItalianStallion" wrote:

How does that change his ability as a player?

Who said it did? I've got a couple of friends who are die hard Viking fans who I used to razz when he was a member of your team. Now that he's on our team I'm trying to look at the positives. Karma is catching up with me I guess.

ItalianStallion
03-15-2006, 08:38 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"ItalianStallion" wrote:

How does that change his ability as a player?

Who said it did? I've got a couple of friends who are die hard Viking fans who I used to razz when he was a member of your team. Now that he's on our team I'm trying to look at the positives. Karma is catching up with me I guess.

Well now you seem to think he is a better player now than he was before, clearly that doesn't depend on what team he is playing for.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 08:42 PM
"ItalianStallion" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"ItalianStallion" wrote:

How does that change his ability as a player?

Who said it did? I've got a couple of friends who are die hard Viking fans who I used to razz when he was a member of your team. Now that he's on our team I'm trying to look at the positives. Karma is catching up with me I guess.

Well now you seem to think he is a better player now than he was before, clearly that doesn't depend on what team he is playing for.

After reading the article robertsmith posted, I see the player he can be and what he can bring to our team. We have more options in our offense, and a better defense, all of which should help take some pressure off of Culpepper.

Is it really hard to believe that I'm supporting our new starting QB??? What kind of fan would I be otherwise?

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 08:49 PM
"ItalianStallion" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"ItalianStallion" wrote:

How does that change his ability as a player?

Who said it did? I've got a couple of friends who are die hard Viking fans who I used to razz when he was a member of your team. Now that he's on our team I'm trying to look at the positives. Karma is catching up with me I guess.

Well now you seem to think he is a better player now than he was before, clearly that doesn't depend on what team he is playing for.

Yep pretty much.

No matter how we cut it we downgraded at QB?

WE DOWNGRADED? How in anyway shape or form does him being on your team have to do with my team Downgrading? So we NEED to trade him because he is horrible, and Johnson is way better, now all of a sudden my team downgraded for no other reason then he is a Dolphin now.

Yet you were adament that he was just horrible and needed to be traded for the good of the Vikings. Now from one article that is full of half truths that was posted by a "coworker" who has been banned from this site, the Vikings have downgraded.

xvikingfan
03-15-2006, 08:56 PM
Twisted facts he should have said.Thos fumbles will look much worse in close games when they're deep in their own territory.The INT's won't look much better either.How about the completions to other recievers when Moss was in the game.Yeah,Moss was just a decoy who took half the defense down field with him.We all saw how well Culpepper faired without him last year.I still want to see too very big facts that he left out.Like how many come from behind wins Culpepper has had since he's been in the league and what his ROAD record is as a starter.I am still waiting for an answer on that one.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 08:58 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"ItalianStallion" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"ItalianStallion" wrote:

How does that change his ability as a player?

Who said it did? I've got a couple of friends who are die hard Viking fans who I used to razz when he was a member of your team. Now that he's on our team I'm trying to look at the positives. Karma is catching up with me I guess.

Well now you seem to think he is a better player now than he was before, clearly that doesn't depend on what team he is playing for.

Yep pretty much.

No matter how we cut it we downgraded at QB?

WE DOWNGRADED? How in anyway shape or form does him being on your team have to do with my team Downgrading? So we NEED to trade him because he is horrible, and Johnson is way better, now all of a sudden my team downgraded for no other reason then he is a Dolphin now.

Yet you were adament that he was just horrible and needed to be traded for the good of the Vikings. Now from one article that is full of half truths that was posted by a "coworker" who has been banned from this site, the Vikings have downgraded.

Ok... so what is your point?

I'm supporting our new starting QB... what's the problem?

purplepride818
03-15-2006, 09:03 PM
i dont trust any QB who loses the last game of the year (and a chance to get into the playoffs) to the ARIZONA CARDINALS!!!! (who were 4-12 that year if i remember) and the next year loses the last game of the year (and almost a playoff chance if we didnt get lucky) to the WASHINGTON REDSKINS!!!!!!!!! (who also had a crappy record)

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 09:05 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"ItalianStallion" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"ItalianStallion" wrote:

How does that change his ability as a player?

Who said it did? I've got a couple of friends who are die hard Viking fans who I used to razz when he was a member of your team. Now that he's on our team I'm trying to look at the positives. Karma is catching up with me I guess.

Well now you seem to think he is a better player now than he was before, clearly that doesn't depend on what team he is playing for.

Yep pretty much.

No matter how we cut it we downgraded at QB?

WE DOWNGRADED? How in anyway shape or form does him being on your team have to do with my team Downgrading? So we NEED to trade him because he is horrible, and Johnson is way better, now all of a sudden my team downgraded for no other reason then he is a Dolphin now.

Yet you were adament that he was just horrible and needed to be traded for the good of the Vikings. Now from one article that is full of half truths that was posted by a "coworker" who has been banned from this site, the Vikings have downgraded.

Ok... so what is your point?

I'm supporting our new starting QB... what's the problem?

The point is last season you started shit about a team you don't even root for by saying we needed to trade a QB, you then went on to tell us everything that is wrong with him.

Now he is on your team you come to a Vikings website and inform us we downgraded at QB. I don't see how stirring up shit on another teams website is supporting your new QB.

I figured it was worth pointing out the irony that a few months ago you were all about Brad Johnson in the process causing quite a stir, now your here in "support" of your new QB stirring the pot telling Vikings fans in a nutshell we made a mistake.

Basically I think your full of shit. I guess that would be the point.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 09:10 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"ItalianStallion" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:


How does that change his ability as a player?

Who said it did? I've got a couple of friends who are die hard Viking fans who I used to razz when he was a member of your team. Now that he's on our team I'm trying to look at the positives. Karma is catching up with me I guess.

Well now you seem to think he is a better player now than he was before, clearly that doesn't depend on what team he is playing for.

Yep pretty much.

No matter how we cut it we downgraded at QB?

WE DOWNGRADED? How in anyway shape or form does him being on your team have to do with my team Downgrading? So we NEED to trade him because he is horrible, and Johnson is way better, now all of a sudden my team downgraded for no other reason then he is a Dolphin now.

Yet you were adament that he was just horrible and needed to be traded for the good of the Vikings. Now from one article that is full of half truths that was posted by a "coworker" who has been banned from this site, the Vikings have downgraded.

Ok... so what is your point?

I'm supporting our new starting QB... what's the problem?

The point is last season you started pooh about a team you don't even root for by saying we needed to trade a QB, you then went on to tell us everything that is wrong with him.

Now he is on your team you come to a Vikings website and inform us we downgraded at QB. I don't see how stirring up pooh on another teams website is supporting your new QB.

I figured it was worth pointing out the irony that a few months ago you were all about Brad Johnson in the process causing quite a stir, now your here in "support" of your new QB stirring the pot telling Vikings fans in a nutshell we made a mistake.

Basically I think your full of pooh. I guess that would be the point.

So you're bringing up threads from last year and applying them to todays NFL and asking why my opinion has changed? Am I supposed to shit all over my team's new QB? I mean I understand you think I'm someone else who you obviously have a beef with but seriously man, give it up :lol:

purplepride818
03-15-2006, 09:11 PM
"xvikingfan" wrote:

Twisted facts he should have said.Thos fumbles will look much worse in close games when they're deep in their own territory.The INT's won't look much better either.How about the completions to other recievers when Moss was in the game.Yeah,Moss was just a decoy who took half the defense down field with him.We all saw how well Culpepper faired without him last year.I still want to see too very big facts that he left out.Like how many come from behind wins Culpepper has had since he's been in the league and what his ROAD record is as a starter.I am still waiting for an answer on that one.

yeah. and what his record on grass was? its gonna be different not playing 8 games a year on turf.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 09:11 PM
If you can't take a little razzing from a fan of an opposing team than you shouldn't really be on here... Lighten up bro.

(this is for Del Rio, my biggest fan)

Navycoach
03-15-2006, 09:12 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"ItalianStallion" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"ItalianStallion" wrote:

How does that change his ability as a player?

Who said it did? I've got a couple of friends who are die hard Viking fans who I used to razz when he was a member of your team. Now that he's on our team I'm trying to look at the positives. Karma is catching up with me I guess.

Well now you seem to think he is a better player now than he was before, clearly that doesn't depend on what team he is playing for.

Yep pretty much.

No matter how we cut it we downgraded at QB?

WE DOWNGRADED? How in anyway shape or form does him being on your team have to do with my team Downgrading? So we NEED to trade him because he is horrible, and Johnson is way better, now all of a sudden my team downgraded for no other reason then he is a Dolphin now.

Yet you were adament that he was just horrible and needed to be traded for the good of the Vikings. Now from one article that is full of half truths that was posted by a "coworker" who has been banned from this site, the Vikings have downgraded.

Ok... so what is your point?

I'm supporting our new starting QB... what's the problem?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative6.gif

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 09:14 PM
"Navycoach" wrote:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative6.gif

*clap clap clap*

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 09:31 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

If you can't take a little razzing from a fan of an opposing team than you shouldn't really be on here... Lighten up bro.

(this is for Del Rio, my biggest fan)

Yeah see that's the thing all you do is razz.

A year ago you were razzing, right now your razzing.

You know what thats called? Trolling.

You know whats not allowed? Your biggest fan thinks you might be smart enough to figure that out.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 09:34 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

If you can't take a little razzing from a fan of an opposing team than you shouldn't really be on here... Lighten up bro.

(this is for Del Rio, my biggest fan)

Yeah see that's the thing all you do is razz.

A year ago you were razzing, right now your razzing.

You know what thats called? Trolling.

You know whats not allowed? Your biggest fan thinks you might be smart enough to figure that out.

Trolling is you and every other mod on here following me around and making those lame "What's up amth" posts everytime I make a post.

Pot, meet kettle...

NEXT!

dolphan117
03-15-2006, 09:35 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

Hahahaha

Yeah facts hurt, too bad over half of that is assumption and fallacy as opposed to facts.

Especially regarding his paragraph on Randy Moss.


No doubt they got a good deal, but this is really just more of the same kaka del toro.

He's basing almost everything off of a QB rating which is widely debated as a good guage because of inconsistencies in the system.

This line : "Yes, he does fumble a lot. However, even if you treat the fumbles as interceptions, his numbers are still great"

Actually made me laugh out loud.

Here is a little breakdown that I posted on Finheaven.
Part 1
For the sake of comparison I broke down Culpeppers rating and converted all fumbles lost to interceptions.
Culpeppers QB rating for his career is 95.5, his adjusted rating would go from an outstanding 95.5 to 86.2.
I broke down the 6 highest rated QBs in the league last year and adjusted their career stats the same way as Culpeppers. All fumbles lost now equal interceptions. The QBs are listed in the order that they finished the season relative to unadjusted QB rating.
1. P Manning-adjusted career rating-93.5, 43 fumbles, none lost.
2. C Palmer- adjusted career rating-90.2, 7 fumbles ,none lost but only 2 years of NFL stats.
3. Rothlessburger-adjusted career rating-98.3, 4 fumbles, none lost again only two years of NFL stats.
4. M Hasselback- adjusted career rating-86.6, 25 fumbles, none lost.
5. M Bulger-adjusted career rating-87.0, 19 fumbles, 13 lost.
6. T Brady-adjusted career rating-88.3, 47 fumbles, one lost.

Culpeppers career rating of 86.2 would rank him last among this group of QBs. I am undecided about how much I want him but I thought for the sake of comparison I would break it down since he does fumble a lot and just comparing QB rating to QB rating isn't an accurate reflections of how many turnovers a QB is responsible for.
-Note-Its worth pointing out that the unbelievable rating of Rothlessburger was on an offense that featured the run more than any other of the group. I believe in his rookie year he was asked to throw the ball less than any other starter.

The three top qbs who look like they may be available in trade or FA are ranked like this after adjusted ratings-
1-Bulger-87.0
2-Culpepper-86.2
3-Brees-83.8

Part 2
After writing the original post another user pointed out that if you truly want get “net effect rating” of all the impact that a qb has on an offense you would also need to include in the rating rushing yards and tds.
The ratings adjusted to include fumbles, rushing yards and rushing tds for those same 6 Qbs are as follows.

1-Rothlesburger-adjusted rating-102.3
2.Manning-adjusted rating-94.8
3.Palmer-adjusted rating-91.3
4.Bulger adjusted rating-89.3
5.Brady adjusted rating-89.2
6.Hasselback adjusted rating-88.7

Culpepper-adjusted rating 93.8.
This net effect rating would rank Culpepper third behind only Big Ben and Manning

Possible available qb ratings-
Culpepper-93.8
Bulger-89.3
Brees-85.3

Note-I did not add rushing attempts into this equation since if you converted them to passing attempts and completions it would skew the ratings in favor of rushing QBs.

I haven’t decided whether I really want Culpepper due to the off the field issues and how things have went between him and the front office but his on field production is pretty good even with the fumbles.

Navycoach
03-15-2006, 09:35 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Navycoach" wrote:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative6.gif

*clap clap clap*

That was aimed at you dipsh*t

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 09:36 PM
"Navycoach" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Navycoach" wrote:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative6.gif

*clap clap clap*

That was aimed at you dipsh*t

You don't say!

briboy75
03-15-2006, 09:37 PM
"SharperVikings" wrote:

one thing they did leave out is that he is very inconsistent! one game he can be amazing and the next not!

isn't that true of every QB?


"SharperVikings" wrote:

he can put up numbers, but what was his record?? thats all that matters!


i don't buy that. if you are evaluating one player, you need to look at the rest of the team.. the denfese daunte had to work with was poor. culpepper can't win games all by himself... record is just one measure, but thats not all that matters.

Prophet
03-15-2006, 09:38 PM
"dolphan117" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

Hahahaha

Yeah facts hurt, too bad over half of that is assumption and fallacy as opposed to facts.

Especially regarding his paragraph on Randy Moss.


No doubt they got a good deal, but this is really just more of the same kaka del toro.

He's basing almost everything off of a QB rating which is widely debated as a good guage because of inconsistencies in the system.

This line : "Yes, he does fumble a lot. However, even if you treat the fumbles as interceptions, his numbers are still great"

Actually made me laugh out loud.

Here is a little breakdown that I posted on Finheaven.
Part 1
For the sake of comparison I broke down Culpeppers rating and converted all fumbles lost to interceptions.
Culpeppers QB rating for his career is 95.5, his adjusted rating would go from an outstanding 95.5 to 86.2.
I broke down the 6 highest rated QBs in the league last year and adjusted their career stats the same way as Culpeppers. All fumbles lost now equal interceptions. The QBs are listed in the order that they finished the season relative to unadjusted QB rating.
1. P Manning-adjusted career rating-93.5, 43 fumbles, none lost.
2. C Palmer- adjusted career rating-90.2, 7 fumbles ,none lost but only 2 years of NFL stats.
3. Rothlessburger-adjusted career rating-98.3, 4 fumbles, none lost again only two years of NFL stats.
4. M Hasselback- adjusted career rating-86.6, 25 fumbles, none lost.
5. M Bulger-adjusted career rating-87.0, 19 fumbles, 13 lost.
6. T Brady-adjusted career rating-88.3, 47 fumbles, one lost.

Culpeppers career rating of 86.2 would rank him last among this group of QBs. I am undecided about how much I want him but I thought for the sake of comparison I would break it down since he does fumble a lot and just comparing QB rating to QB rating isn't an accurate reflections of how many turnovers a QB is responsible for.
-Note-Its worth pointing out that the unbelievable rating of Rothlessburger was on an offense that featured the run more than any other of the group. I believe in his rookie year he was asked to throw the ball less than any other starter.

The three top qbs who look like they may be available in trade or FA are ranked like this after adjusted ratings-
1-Bulger-87.0
2-Culpepper-86.2
3-Brees-83.8

Part 2
After writing the original post another user pointed out that if you truly want get “net effect rating” of all the impact that a qb has on an offense you would also need to include in the rating rushing yards and tds.
The ratings adjusted to include fumbles, rushing yards and rushing tds for those same 6 Qbs are as follows.

1-Rothlesburger-adjusted rating-102.3
2.Manning-adjusted rating-94.8
3.Palmer-adjusted rating-91.3
4.Bulger adjusted rating-89.3
5.Brady adjusted rating-89.2
6.Hasselback adjusted rating-88.7

Culpepper-adjusted rating 93.8.
This net effect rating would rank Culpepper third behind only Big Ben and Manning

Possible available qb ratings-
Culpepper-93.8
Bulger-89.3
Brees-85.3

Note-I did not add rushing attempts into this equation since if you converted them to passing attempts and completions it would skew the ratings in favor of rushing QBs.

I haven’t decided whether I really want Culpepper due to the off the field issues and how things have went between him and the front office but his on field production is pretty good even with the fumbles.

lol, a little time on your hands? It is nice to play with stats, especially during the offseason. If you beat the data long enough it will confess.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 09:38 PM
"briboy75" wrote:

i don't buy that. if you are evaluating one player, you need to look at the rest of the team.. the denfese daunte had to work with was poor. culpepper can't win games all by himself... record is just one measure, but thats not all that matters.

I agree... I mean football is the ultimate team sport so pinning wins or losses on one person isn't really fair.

ThorSPL
03-15-2006, 09:42 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

We'll always be mediocre? I think you're forgetting we're still up 2-0 with superbowls over your team (and you must have forgotten we beat you in the superbowl). It's ok... i'd want to block that out too.

We'll see what happens this year though :) I'd be very surprised if we don't make the playoffs. Daunte will start 10-12 games this year... trust me on that.

Well, I usually try to focus on things that happened in my lifetime.

You're obviously no older than 15.... you haven't beaten us in the superbowl in the last 15 years.

But hey, it's alright - Great Britain was once a superpower as well. We know how that turned out.

dolphan117
03-15-2006, 09:45 PM
"Prophet" wrote:

"dolphan117" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

Hahahaha

Yeah facts hurt, too bad over half of that is assumption and fallacy as opposed to facts.

Especially regarding his paragraph on Randy Moss.


No doubt they got a good deal, but this is really just more of the same kaka del toro.

He's basing almost everything off of a QB rating which is widely debated as a good guage because of inconsistencies in the system.

This line : "Yes, he does fumble a lot. However, even if you treat the fumbles as interceptions, his numbers are still great"

Actually made me laugh out loud.

Here is a little breakdown that I posted on Finheaven.
Part 1
For the sake of comparison I broke down Culpeppers rating and converted all fumbles lost to interceptions.
Culpeppers QB rating for his career is 95.5, his adjusted rating would go from an outstanding 95.5 to 86.2.
I broke down the 6 highest rated QBs in the league last year and adjusted their career stats the same way as Culpeppers. All fumbles lost now equal interceptions. The QBs are listed in the order that they finished the season relative to unadjusted QB rating.
1. P Manning-adjusted career rating-93.5, 43 fumbles, none lost.
2. C Palmer- adjusted career rating-90.2, 7 fumbles ,none lost but only 2 years of NFL stats.
3. Rothlessburger-adjusted career rating-98.3, 4 fumbles, none lost again only two years of NFL stats.
4. M Hasselback- adjusted career rating-86.6, 25 fumbles, none lost.
5. M Bulger-adjusted career rating-87.0, 19 fumbles, 13 lost.
6. T Brady-adjusted career rating-88.3, 47 fumbles, one lost.

Culpeppers career rating of 86.2 would rank him last among this group of QBs. I am undecided about how much I want him but I thought for the sake of comparison I would break it down since he does fumble a lot and just comparing QB rating to QB rating isn't an accurate reflections of how many turnovers a QB is responsible for.
-Note-Its worth pointing out that the unbelievable rating of Rothlessburger was on an offense that featured the run more than any other of the group. I believe in his rookie year he was asked to throw the ball less than any other starter.

The three top qbs who look like they may be available in trade or FA are ranked like this after adjusted ratings-
1-Bulger-87.0
2-Culpepper-86.2
3-Brees-83.8

Part 2
After writing the original post another user pointed out that if you truly want get “net effect rating” of all the impact that a qb has on an offense you would also need to include in the rating rushing yards and tds.
The ratings adjusted to include fumbles, rushing yards and rushing tds for those same 6 Qbs are as follows.

1-Rothlesburger-adjusted rating-102.3
2.Manning-adjusted rating-94.8
3.Palmer-adjusted rating-91.3
4.Bulger adjusted rating-89.3
5.Brady adjusted rating-89.2
6.Hasselback adjusted rating-88.7

Culpepper-adjusted rating 93.8.
This net effect rating would rank Culpepper third behind only Big Ben and Manning

Possible available qb ratings-
Culpepper-93.8
Bulger-89.3
Brees-85.3

Note-I did not add rushing attempts into this equation since if you converted them to passing attempts and completions it would skew the ratings in favor of rushing QBs.

I haven’t decided whether I really want Culpepper due to the off the field issues and how things have went between him and the front office but his on field production is pretty good even with the fumbles.

lol, a little time on your hands? It is nice to play with stats, especially during the offseason. If you beat the data long enough it will confess.

I wrote it for a Dolphins forum that I post in a lot well befor we traded for Culpepper because a lot of Fin Fans were posting one liners like "Culpepper Sucks!!" and "He is a turnover machine" It was driving me crazy. I still have some character concerns but Saban has a reputation of being able to run a good program and it should help that Culpepper really, really wanted to be here.(or so the writers say, some are saying Culpepper recruted Saban more than the other way around)

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 09:47 PM
"ThorSPL" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

We'll always be mediocre? I think you're forgetting we're still up 2-0 with superbowls over your team (and you must have forgotten we beat you in the superbowl). It's ok... i'd want to block that out too.

We'll see what happens this year though :) I'd be very surprised if we don't make the playoffs. Daunte will start 10-12 games this year... trust me on that.

Well, I usually try to focus on things that happened in my lifetime.

You're obviously no older than 15.... you haven't beaten us in the superbowl in the last 15 years.

But hey, it's alright - Great Britain was once a superpower as well. We know how that turned out.

I'm actually 26 but who's counting.

My age still doesn't change the fact that we did beat you in the superbowl. Even if it was over 30 years ago, it's still something I can razz Vikes fans with :grin:

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 09:47 PM
"dolphan117" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

Hahahaha

Yeah facts hurt, too bad over half of that is assumption and fallacy as opposed to facts.

Especially regarding his paragraph on Randy Moss.


No doubt they got a good deal, but this is really just more of the same kaka del toro.

He's basing almost everything off of a QB rating which is widely debated as a good guage because of inconsistencies in the system.

This line : "Yes, he does fumble a lot. However, even if you treat the fumbles as interceptions, his numbers are still great"

Actually made me laugh out loud.

Here is a little breakdown that I posted on Finheaven.
Part 1
For the sake of comparison I broke down Culpeppers rating and converted all fumbles lost to interceptions.
Culpeppers QB rating for his career is 95.5, his adjusted rating would go from an outstanding 95.5 to 86.2.
I broke down the 6 highest rated QBs in the league last year and adjusted their career stats the same way as Culpeppers. All fumbles lost now equal interceptions. The QBs are listed in the order that they finished the season relative to unadjusted QB rating.
1. P Manning-adjusted career rating-93.5, 43 fumbles, none lost.
2. C Palmer- adjusted career rating-90.2, 7 fumbles ,none lost but only 2 years of NFL stats.
3. Rothlessburger-adjusted career rating-98.3, 4 fumbles, none lost again only two years of NFL stats.
4. M Hasselback- adjusted career rating-86.6, 25 fumbles, none lost.
5. M Bulger-adjusted career rating-87.0, 19 fumbles, 13 lost.
6. T Brady-adjusted career rating-88.3, 47 fumbles, one lost.

Culpeppers career rating of 86.2 would rank him last among this group of QBs. I am undecided about how much I want him but I thought for the sake of comparison I would break it down since he does fumble a lot and just comparing QB rating to QB rating isn't an accurate reflections of how many turnovers a QB is responsible for.
-Note-Its worth pointing out that the unbelievable rating of Rothlessburger was on an offense that featured the run more than any other of the group. I believe in his rookie year he was asked to throw the ball less than any other starter.

The three top qbs who look like they may be available in trade or FA are ranked like this after adjusted ratings-
1-Bulger-87.0
2-Culpepper-86.2
3-Brees-83.8

Part 2
After writing the original post another user pointed out that if you truly want get “net effect rating” of all the impact that a qb has on an offense you would also need to include in the rating rushing yards and tds.
The ratings adjusted to include fumbles, rushing yards and rushing tds for those same 6 Qbs are as follows.

1-Rothlesburger-adjusted rating-102.3
2.Manning-adjusted rating-94.8
3.Palmer-adjusted rating-91.3
4.Bulger adjusted rating-89.3
5.Brady adjusted rating-89.2
6.Hasselback adjusted rating-88.7

Culpepper-adjusted rating 93.8.
This net effect rating would rank Culpepper third behind only Big Ben and Manning

Possible available qb ratings-
Culpepper-93.8
Bulger-89.3
Brees-85.3

Note-I did not add rushing attempts into this equation since if you converted them to passing attempts and completions it would skew the ratings in favor of rushing QBs.

I haven’t decided whether I really want Culpepper due to the off the field issues and how things have went between him and the front office but his on field production is pretty good even with the fumbles.

Tell me this,

When you went over his fumbling, how in the world did you come to the conclusion that you can count a fumble as an interception......if you count a rush attempt as a completion? How is that in any way an accurate account?

I mean like I said the post is good, but you skirt over the major issues here. We knew the guy could throw, we knew the guy is a good athlete. But his turnovers, his poor decision making, his reliance on Randy Moss, and more recently his off the field issues are what his downside is.

No doubt you guys got a good deal. If he doesn't pan out you only gave up a second rounder.

QB RTG is faulty, even more so when you start to deviate from the formula.

It was a good post, if all it was saying is "calm down, we made a good deal."

Hell you guys were 9-7 with Ferotte, Drew Brees wasn't going to push you over the edge, your coaches are young your team is growing and Culpepper should do just fine there.

robertsmith
03-15-2006, 09:48 PM
pssst

people i am formerly amth !!!

del rio - stop trolling people saying they are me when u CLEARLY TROLLED ME ENOUGH TO KNOW I AM AMTH

Prophet
03-15-2006, 09:49 PM
"dolphan117" wrote:

"Prophet" wrote:

"dolphan117" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

Hahahaha

Yeah facts hurt, too bad over half of that is assumption and fallacy as opposed to facts.

Especially regarding his paragraph on Randy Moss.


No doubt they got a good deal, but this is really just more of the same kaka del toro.

He's basing almost everything off of a QB rating which is widely debated as a good guage because of inconsistencies in the system.

This line : "Yes, he does fumble a lot. However, even if you treat the fumbles as interceptions, his numbers are still great"

Actually made me laugh out loud.

Here is a little breakdown that I posted on Finheaven.
Part 1
For the sake of comparison I broke down Culpeppers rating and converted all fumbles lost to interceptions.
Culpeppers QB rating for his career is 95.5, his adjusted rating would go from an outstanding 95.5 to 86.2.
I broke down the 6 highest rated QBs in the league last year and adjusted their career stats the same way as Culpeppers. All fumbles lost now equal interceptions. The QBs are listed in the order that they finished the season relative to unadjusted QB rating.
1. P Manning-adjusted career rating-93.5, 43 fumbles, none lost.
2. C Palmer- adjusted career rating-90.2, 7 fumbles ,none lost but only 2 years of NFL stats.
3. Rothlessburger-adjusted career rating-98.3, 4 fumbles, none lost again only two years of NFL stats.
4. M Hasselback- adjusted career rating-86.6, 25 fumbles, none lost.
5. M Bulger-adjusted career rating-87.0, 19 fumbles, 13 lost.
6. T Brady-adjusted career rating-88.3, 47 fumbles, one lost.

Culpeppers career rating of 86.2 would rank him last among this group of QBs. I am undecided about how much I want him but I thought for the sake of comparison I would break it down since he does fumble a lot and just comparing QB rating to QB rating isn't an accurate reflections of how many turnovers a QB is responsible for.
-Note-Its worth pointing out that the unbelievable rating of Rothlessburger was on an offense that featured the run more than any other of the group. I believe in his rookie year he was asked to throw the ball less than any other starter.

The three top qbs who look like they may be available in trade or FA are ranked like this after adjusted ratings-
1-Bulger-87.0
2-Culpepper-86.2
3-Brees-83.8

Part 2
After writing the original post another user pointed out that if you truly want get “net effect rating” of all the impact that a qb has on an offense you would also need to include in the rating rushing yards and tds.
The ratings adjusted to include fumbles, rushing yards and rushing tds for those same 6 Qbs are as follows.

1-Rothlesburger-adjusted rating-102.3
2.Manning-adjusted rating-94.8
3.Palmer-adjusted rating-91.3
4.Bulger adjusted rating-89.3
5.Brady adjusted rating-89.2
6.Hasselback adjusted rating-88.7

Culpepper-adjusted rating 93.8.
This net effect rating would rank Culpepper third behind only Big Ben and Manning

Possible available qb ratings-
Culpepper-93.8
Bulger-89.3
Brees-85.3

Note-I did not add rushing attempts into this equation since if you converted them to passing attempts and completions it would skew the ratings in favor of rushing QBs.

I haven’t decided whether I really want Culpepper due to the off the field issues and how things have went between him and the front office but his on field production is pretty good even with the fumbles.

lol, a little time on your hands? It is nice to play with stats, especially during the offseason. If you beat the data long enough it will confess.

I wrote it for a Dolphins forum that I post in a lot well befor we traded for Culpepper because a lot of Fin Fans were posting one liners like "Culpepper Sucks!!" and "He is a turnover machine" It was driving me crazy. I still have some character concerns but Saban has a reputation of being able to run a good program and it should help that Culpepper really, really wanted to be here.(or so the writers say, some are saying Culpepper recruted Saban more than the other way around)

Just giving you a tough time, I appreciate people that take the time to do a breakdown. Every forum has more then it's share of the 'so-and-so sucks' comments that cloud over the good posts. I wouldn't doubt for a moment that Saben was being courted by Culpepper. Good for Daunte, if that's where he wanted to go, and it appears it was, he got his wish. It worked. I'm already excited about the Vikings/Dolphins game next year.

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 09:50 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

If you can't take a little razzing from a fan of an opposing team than you shouldn't really be on here... Lighten up bro.

(this is for Del Rio, my biggest fan)

Yeah see that's the thing all you do is razz.

A year ago you were razzing, right now your razzing.

You know what thats called? Trolling.

You know whats not allowed? Your biggest fan thinks you might be smart enough to figure that out.

Trolling is you and every other mod on here following me around and making those lame "What's up amth" posts everytime I make a post.

Pot, meet kettle...

NEXT!

Yeah people don't generally like trolls, hence the harassment.

PatWilliamsBelly
03-15-2006, 09:51 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

Yeah people don't generally like trolls, hence the harassment.

Get over me man... I'm really not worth all this attention :lol:

purplepride818
03-15-2006, 09:52 PM
and you forgot to mention his fumble statistics with other QBs at their point in their carrers. you'll see hes the best ever at that.

Gift
03-15-2006, 09:53 PM
wow @ this thread

dolphan117
03-15-2006, 09:54 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"dolphan117" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

Hahahaha

Yeah facts hurt, too bad over half of that is assumption and fallacy as opposed to facts.

Especially regarding his paragraph on Randy Moss.


No doubt they got a good deal, but this is really just more of the same kaka del toro.

He's basing almost everything off of a QB rating which is widely debated as a good guage because of inconsistencies in the system.

This line : "Yes, he does fumble a lot. However, even if you treat the fumbles as interceptions, his numbers are still great"

Actually made me laugh out loud.

Here is a little breakdown that I posted on Finheaven.
Part 1
For the sake of comparison I broke down Culpeppers rating and converted all fumbles lost to interceptions.
Culpeppers QB rating for his career is 95.5, his adjusted rating would go from an outstanding 95.5 to 86.2.
I broke down the 6 highest rated QBs in the league last year and adjusted their career stats the same way as Culpeppers. All fumbles lost now equal interceptions. The QBs are listed in the order that they finished the season relative to unadjusted QB rating.
1. P Manning-adjusted career rating-93.5, 43 fumbles, none lost.
2. C Palmer- adjusted career rating-90.2, 7 fumbles ,none lost but only 2 years of NFL stats.
3. Rothlessburger-adjusted career rating-98.3, 4 fumbles, none lost again only two years of NFL stats.
4. M Hasselback- adjusted career rating-86.6, 25 fumbles, none lost.
5. M Bulger-adjusted career rating-87.0, 19 fumbles, 13 lost.
6. T Brady-adjusted career rating-88.3, 47 fumbles, one lost.

Culpeppers career rating of 86.2 would rank him last among this group of QBs. I am undecided about how much I want him but I thought for the sake of comparison I would break it down since he does fumble a lot and just comparing QB rating to QB rating isn't an accurate reflections of how many turnovers a QB is responsible for.
-Note-Its worth pointing out that the unbelievable rating of Rothlessburger was on an offense that featured the run more than any other of the group. I believe in his rookie year he was asked to throw the ball less than any other starter.

The three top qbs who look like they may be available in trade or FA are ranked like this after adjusted ratings-
1-Bulger-87.0
2-Culpepper-86.2
3-Brees-83.8

Part 2
After writing the original post another user pointed out that if you truly want get “net effect rating” of all the impact that a qb has on an offense you would also need to include in the rating rushing yards and tds.
The ratings adjusted to include fumbles, rushing yards and rushing tds for those same 6 Qbs are as follows.

1-Rothlesburger-adjusted rating-102.3
2.Manning-adjusted rating-94.8
3.Palmer-adjusted rating-91.3
4.Bulger adjusted rating-89.3
5.Brady adjusted rating-89.2
6.Hasselback adjusted rating-88.7

Culpepper-adjusted rating 93.8.
This net effect rating would rank Culpepper third behind only Big Ben and Manning

Possible available qb ratings-
Culpepper-93.8
Bulger-89.3
Brees-85.3

Note-I did not add rushing attempts into this equation since if you converted them to passing attempts and completions it would skew the ratings in favor of rushing QBs.

I haven’t decided whether I really want Culpepper due to the off the field issues and how things have went between him and the front office but his on field production is pretty good even with the fumbles.

Tell me this,

When you went over his fumbling, how in the world did you come to the conclusion that you can count a fumble as an interception......if you count a rush attempt as a completion? How is that in any way an accurate account?

I mean like I said the post is good, but you skirt over the major issues here. We knew the guy could throw, we knew the guy is a good athlete. But his turnovers, his poor decision making, his reliance on Randy Moss, and more recently his off the field issues are what his downside is.

No doubt you guys got a good deal. If he doesn't pan out you only gave up a second rounder.

QB RTG is faulty, even more so when you start to deviate from the formula.

It was a good post, if all it was saying is "calm down, we made a good deal."

Hell you guys were 9-7 with Ferotte, Drew Brees wasn't going to push you over the edge, your coaches are young your team is growing and Culpepper should do just fine there.

I made a note at the botum of the post that I didnt count rushing attemts as completions. The original writer that this thread was about did but I did not. I figured in rushing yards as passing yards in the second part of my post but I never used rushing atempts in any of my formulas.

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 09:54 PM
"robertsmith" wrote:

pssst

people i am formerly amth !!!

del rio - stop trolling people saying they are me when u CLEARLY TROLLED ME ENOUGH TO KNOW I AM AMTH

You know the issue hasn't really become important weather or not you are PWB or not, what has become obvious since you two rump buddies post in every thread together is that you both may work together and you both get off on trolling the Vikings boards. Working together.

I imagine you post something run over to your co worker and say check out what I just posted.....then he adds his little 2-cents then you two run off to the bathroom and wipe for each other.

Either way it has become obvious neither of you are worth having around here. So I imagine it will soon be time for the old IP ban and just knock off two birds with one stone.

Oh and Amth you were banned once buddy, the fact that you come back is pretty sad.

robertsmith
03-15-2006, 09:55 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

If you can't take a little razzing from a fan of an opposing team than you shouldn't really be on here... Lighten up bro.

(this is for Del Rio, my biggest fan)

Yeah see that's the thing all you do is razz.

A year ago you were razzing, right now your razzing.

You know what thats called? Trolling.

You know whats not allowed? Your biggest fan thinks you might be smart enough to figure that out.

Trolling is you and every other mod on here following me around and making those lame "What's up amth" posts everytime I make a post.

Pot, meet kettle...

NEXT!

Yeah people don't generally like trolls, hence the harassment.


yet your one of the biggest ones on here!!

beginning of the season i said moore at best was a thrid down back and was a feature back, u all jumped down my throat and made personal attacks when i fought back u trolled the hell out of me then got me banned because you and a few other couldnt take the truth

season over i was right all along and now u all agree we need a new feature back

TROLL

Gift
03-15-2006, 09:58 PM
"robertsmith" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

If you can't take a little razzing from a fan of an opposing team than you shouldn't really be on here... Lighten up bro.

(this is for Del Rio, my biggest fan)

Yeah see that's the thing all you do is razz.

A year ago you were razzing, right now your razzing.

You know what thats called? Trolling.

You know whats not allowed? Your biggest fan thinks you might be smart enough to figure that out.

Trolling is you and every other mod on here following me around and making those lame "What's up amth" posts everytime I make a post.

Pot, meet kettle...

NEXT!

Yeah people don't generally like trolls, hence the harassment.
beginning of the season i said moore at best was a thrid down back and was a feature back, u all jumped down my throat and made personal attacks when i fought back u trolled the hell out of me then got me banned because you and a few other couldnt take the truth
for some reason I doubt you version of events. :roll:

Prophet
03-15-2006, 09:58 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

...You know the issue hasn't really become important weather or not you are PWB or not, what has become obvious since you two rump buddies post in every thread together is that you both may work together and you both get off on trolling the Vikings boards. Working together.

I imagine you post something run over to your co worker and say check out what I just posted.....then he adds his little 2-cents then you two run off to the bathroom and wipe for each other....

LMAO, Del, you always have a way with words. Damn it, I can't help but laugh.

robertsmith
03-15-2006, 09:58 PM
"Gift" wrote:

"robertsmith" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:


If you can't take a little razzing from a fan of an opposing team than you shouldn't really be on here... Lighten up bro.

(this is for Del Rio, my biggest fan)

Yeah see that's the thing all you do is razz.

A year ago you were razzing, right now your razzing.

You know what thats called? Trolling.

You know whats not allowed? Your biggest fan thinks you might be smart enough to figure that out.

Trolling is you and every other mod on here following me around and making those lame "What's up amth" posts everytime I make a post.

Pot, meet kettle...

NEXT!

Yeah people don't generally like trolls, hence the harassment.
beginning of the season i said moore at best was a thrid down back and was a feature back, u all jumped down my throat and made personal attacks when i fought back u trolled the hell out of me then got me banned because you and a few other couldnt take the truth
for some reason I doubt you version of events. :roll:

IM SURE THE THREAD IS STILL AROUND LOOK IT UP

Del Rio
03-15-2006, 09:59 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

Yeah people don't generally like trolls, hence the harassment.

Get over me man... I'm really not worth all this attention :lol:

I agree you are not.

I apologize to PPO for feeding this troll, and ruining a potentially interesting thread.

Thanks for the breakdown to the original writer of the stats, at the very least it was interesting.

ThorSPL
03-15-2006, 09:59 PM
"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:

"ThorSPL" wrote:

"PatWilliamsBelly" wrote:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

We'll always be mediocre? I think you're forgetting we're still up 2-0 with superbowls over your team (and you must have forgotten we beat you in the superbowl). It's ok... i'd want to block that out too.

We'll see what happens this year though :) I'd be very surprised if we don't make the playoffs. Daunte will start 10-12 games this year... trust me on that.

Well, I usually try to focus on things that happened in my lifetime.

You're obviously no older than 15.... you haven't beaten us in the superbowl in the last 15 years.

But hey, it's alright - Great Britain was once a superpower as well. We know how that turned out.

I'm actually 26 but who's counting.

My age still doesn't change the fact that we did beat you in the superbowl. Even if it was over 30 years ago, it's still something I can razz Vikes fans with :grin:

Really? The IP address came up from Toys R' Us -

Glad to see you're making something of yourself :)

ultravikingfan
03-15-2006, 10:34 PM
Goodbye robertsmith/Patwilliamsbelly/Amth

We gave you a second chance and you and your multiple personalities blew it.