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RandyMoss8404
07-14-2004, 11:22 AM
After an exhausting offseason training regiment, Javon Walker believes he's ready to surpass Donald Driver and Robert Ferguson as the Packers' No. 1 receiver. Phoenix trainer Brett Fischer had Walker run routes and sprints wearing a 30-pound vest. He also caught passes while standing on one leg and while wearing elastic bands that extended from his waist to his wrists. The result: Walker was virtually unstoppable against the Packers' cornerbacks in minicamp.

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Hahaha, good look with Moss!

TWISTED
07-14-2004, 11:27 AM
Is that fat headed Mike McKensie even there? That could possibly be the reason. Al Harris is a nickle DB, always has been always will be.

VKG4LFE
07-14-2004, 02:05 PM
Well, they don't have the greatest corners, especially with McKenzie gone, so that really isn't saying much!!

dart18
07-14-2004, 03:08 PM
i take it as a positive, if they cant stop him, they cant even think of stopping Mr.Moss or Robinson for that matter

hawaiianvike21
07-14-2004, 11:33 PM
Packers corners aint even that great in the first place. There prolly decent at best. Dont know if mckenizie was there or not.

I think we have better corner then they do in williams and winfield.

Would like to see winfield shut him down when we play in nov and dec. :D

TWISTED
07-15-2004, 12:07 AM
Am I the only one who is VERY impressed with the play of Brian Williams. Last year he shut down pretty much anyone he faced with the exception of Torry Holt who had a good game with quick slants and skinny posts, which are extremely tough to defend if executed properly. Two years ago when he was thrown into the mix I thought he preformed quite admirably as well. A few mental errors but showed tons of promise and natural ability. I am going to go on the record right now and say it. The DB's are now the strength of the Viking defense. Yes I know, it sounds weird to me too. Williams will continue to improve, and as soon as the media recognizes what I have seen in him, he'll get more calls goin his way... new rules or not. Winfield will still be a solid, scrappy little corner, and a fantastic open field tackler. Chavous provides the smarts and leadership. Russell will still be lurking in centerfield to snag INT's. Plus don’t forget Kenny Irvin he makes a terrific 3rd corner for nickel and dime. He doesn’t have the wheels to stay with the elite receivers anymore, but he can cover the 3rd option guys. Plus Ty Carter is back, who will be helpful in dime situations. Plus he likes to lay the wood to unsuspecting victims. Everyone can mark my words right now.

casper
07-15-2004, 12:23 AM
your on dude it is going to be a great year Full of surprise for the other guys

ItalianStallion
07-15-2004, 12:25 AM
Who said you were the only one, twisted? He was ranked the #20 cornerback in the league by pro football weekly. I think we are all excited about how he is developing.

I can honestly say I was impressed by Javon Walker last year. He is certainly improving and is the Packers best receiver. Not that I think we can't handle him but he is certainly not given alot of respect on this board..

TWISTED
07-15-2004, 12:54 AM
#20 I guess that's pretty fair. Agter this year I'm expecting him to be ranked more in the 8-12 range. I assume Winfield had to be in the top 20 as well, right? So the way I see it, we now have two of the better (young) corners in the league. All we need is some heat from Hovan and Company and it will be another pick filled season!! Exciting stuff

CrewJenks04
07-15-2004, 05:05 AM
Sorry to interrupt your little circle jerk guys. Even without McKenzie, our d-backs are better then your crap. If McKenzie ends up staying, it isn't even close. He is a much better corner then Winfield could even dream of being. Winfield is closer to Al Harris in talent then he is to Mike.

TWISTED
07-15-2004, 07:20 AM
What exactly do you base this on? I know that McKenzie is renowned as your "best defender" but it seems to be a case of one eyed leading the blind. I personally feel that Winfield is flat out better but we can look at the stats straight up. Winfield has a clear cut edge in Tackles and Forced fumbles. McKenzie does come up with more INT’s. But as we all know, its hard to get picks when nobody throws towards you. Besides, we have the two top guys in Chavous and Russell to handle the pick department.
Also lets look into some of the recent press releases. Try to get the skinny on both guys and try to evaluate

“Winfield, considered the top cornerback who didn't have the franchise tag”

“The 26-year-old was a first-round pick of the Bills. He tackles as well as he covers.”

ESPN.com senior writers John Clayton and Len Pasquarelli contributed to this report.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

“Despite his 5-foot-9 frame, the former Ohio State cornerback is considered one of the best tacklers in the league. His eight tackles for loss last season were tops on the Bills.”

“Most people considered Winfield, who the Vikings stole from the New York Jets with a last-minute offer, the best corner on the market without a franchise-player designation. The 26-year-old enjoyed perhaps his best season in 2003-04, with 109 tackles, 12 passes defended and one interception with the Bills.”

-This story is from ESPN.com's automated news wire.

Behind Champ Bailey, Winfield was considered the next-best cornerback on the market. Minnesota's pass-defense was instantly upgraded once the ink dried on this deal. Winfield is one of the top options as a defensive back in leagues that use individual defenders.

-CBS Sporstline.com

VS.

“Cornerback Mike McKenzie fulfilled his pledge to boycott the Green Bay Packers' first offseason minicamp, the first formal step in his demand to be traded. “

"McKenzie is threatening to retire unless he's traded. "
-AP NEWS
The Associated Press News Service

TWISTED
07-15-2004, 07:29 AM
Or we can go by player ratings.

The rankings are a total player-rating system based on various offensive and defensive statistics. Players increase their scores with every contribution they make to the game.




3. Brian Williams, MIN
54.81

4. Antoine Winfield, BUF
53.94

5. Corey Chavous, MIN
52.62

12. Brian Russell, MIN
49.69

Then way down on the second page…

88. Mike McKenzie, GB
30.64


hmmmmm How did all four of my starters, get rated WAY up there and your cry baby Mike McKenzie (who looks like the love child of Whoopi Goldberg and the Predator by the way) get so far down on the list?? That’s a mystery. Its almost like he's not that good. Hell even Al Harris was higher!
Bottom line is, my guy will be there and yours won’t.

briboy75
07-15-2004, 09:39 AM
hey twisted, where did you get the player rankings from?

TWISTED
07-15-2004, 10:09 AM
CBS Sportsline.com

purplepat
07-15-2004, 10:48 AM
Two things:

One, the Packer fan who posted here is obviously delusional. Without McKenzie, the Packers defensive backfield is average at best. True, the two rooks may come up to speed quickly, and even improve the Pack secondary...or they could be the second coming of Bhawoh Jue. Most "experts" around the league rate Winfield as good as or better than McKenzie, BWill is highly regarded as a rapidly improving corner, Chavous was the Pro Bowl starter, and Russell tied for the league lead in interceptions despite some other apparent holes in his game (But still not bad for a guy that was a QB until his last season in college).

Two, Javon Walker may wind up being an outstanding WR this season. He certainly had a big YPC average and lots of TDs last year. If he has improved this much in the offseason, he gives the Packers a real weapon for the Vikings and the rest of the NFL to contend with.

hawaiianvike21
07-15-2004, 05:07 PM
O ya forgot about ahmad carrol, hope that rookie gets roasted by moss if hes defended by him. I really though the packers could have gotten some one better in the first and picked up a corner in the second or third rounds.
Draft magazines had carroll being a 2nd or 3rd rounder.
Im guessing mckenzie stays and pairs with harris again. Harris is average or just above it and mckenzie has decent talent but i didnt think mckenize showed his talent last year. Lets just hope it happens again this year.
Williams was a stud last year and winfield has great abiltity covering the receiver and excellent tackling skills.

Again i see our corners to be better but we shall all see this coming season.

TEXPACK
07-16-2004, 09:28 AM
Purplepat,

Excellent points. The Packers secondary minus Mckenzie will be limited to zone coverages. I think its better than 50/50 McKenzie will sign secondary to the fact if he doesn't he must pay back a tremendous amount of money back to the Packers organization, plus fines etc.

His best option for getting a new contract or being traded is having a breakout year.

The Vikings have had great improvements to becomming a good secondary. Just two years ago the Vikings must have been regarded as one of the leagues worst units inclusive of the expansion club Texans. Kudos to Mike Tice for addressing the need, this wasn't really rocket science.

This may be a contradiction but, I firmly believe although the Vikings may have a better starting four they still lack depth and overall are a worse unit than the Packers DBs. Many times the Packers will field 5-6 DBs against opponents this year. Our stength will come in numbers.

Just imagine that the Packers WR do have the breakout year most Packer faithful expect will the Vikings have the depth to cover down the field? This leaves your linebackers pretty vulnerable for the underneath and intermediate routes. I think Williams is an outstanding player and should make a very deep splash this year but, I don't think the African or Hovan are capable of bringing any consistant presssure. How many years has it been now since Hovan even got a sack? You know Gilbert at 375lbs++ got a few! What does that say about that self promoting goof.

The Vikings are an improved team the Packers are Champions of The NFC North the last two years. One would expect Minnesota to address its shortcommings. The Packers admittedly made mistakes in their recent past with Free Agent Johnson and Drafting Reynolds #10. Ridding themselves of 2 roster slots should free up a great deal of cap room around 5-6million next year. This year will be a challenge as it was last year and the year prior but, the Packers have proven to be a solid and cohesive unit. Green Bay has no doubt a top 5 NFL Offense and with any luck (if they find a diamond or two) a mediocre defense. 2006 the defense should be really really special. Translation 2005 NFC North Champions 2006 Superbowl Champions!

ItalianStallion
07-16-2004, 09:41 AM
Just thought you should know Winfield was ranked as the #9 corner in the league in addition to Williams at #20. Meanwhile McKenzie was 14th or something and Harris wasn't even rated in the top 25.

looks like you've got a nickel corner and a couple of rooks if/when McKenzie doesn't show up, that is something to feel real good about.

enlvikeman
07-16-2004, 09:42 AM
I could care less if a Packer fan thinks his corners are better then ours or are rated higher or lower...corners don't face eachother, the only true test is to see who's corners shuts down who's recievers. One thing is for sure though...Randy Moss owns the Packers and has never been shut down by them. Hell! the packers have spent 3 drafts on first round corners just because of Randy Moss.

ItalianStallion
07-16-2004, 09:48 AM
TEXPACK, most teams don't look to beat you with mismatches with their 3rd receiver vs the opponents 3rd corner, when there is already as mismatch with the opponents 1/2 corners. Like we really care if your 3rd,4th corners can cover Burleson or Campell when we got Moss on Al Harris all day long.

Also how often do defense run a dime package? Not that often compared to when they don't. So take solace in your ability to have a slightly more solid dime coverage (which is still very debatable), but have weaker nickel and base packages.

sdvikefan
07-16-2004, 09:51 AM
"TEXPACK" wrote:

How many years has it been now since Hovan even got a sack?


Less than one...his last sack came in the Arizona game in week 17.

purplepat
07-16-2004, 11:00 AM
Texpack -

Thanks for your thoughtful insight. I agree that the trio of Packers receivers are pretty good. Not great, but good. Walker could really turn the corner this season and become a superstar. Driver could return to his 2002 levels.

I'll disagree to a point about the depth of the Vikings secondary. Ken Irvin at nickel has a ton of NFL experience and defended quite a number of passes last season. He is getting pretty old, and does get burned/commit a penalty on occasion, but he also occasionally makes a good play. Tyrone Carter as the #1 backup at safety was good enough to start for the Jets for more than half of last season. He won't be confused with a Pro Bowler, but he isn't chopped liver either.

Don't know what to say about the Packers secondary. McKenzie is very good, and I agree, I think he'll play for the Packers this season because he'll have no other options. Faced with not getting a paycheck, and possibly having to repay part of his signing bonus, he'll most likely play and start. A lot of Packer fans have been somewhat trashing Darren Sharper lately, but I suspect that is because he hasn't been generating the INTs he did a few years back. Most experts still rate him as a top safety. Al Harris isn't bad at the other CB spot, but he isn't all that good any more either. A competent NFL starter, but nothing special. I'd take Winfield or Brian Williams over Harris at this point. It's also rumored that Harris will be one of those CBs who will really get hurt by the new enforcement of the 5 yard rule. Mark Roman played for the Bengals last season. Since I live here in Cincinnati, I can tell you that Roman is a fairly solid but unspectacular player. He won't kill you, but he won't win any games for you either. Rookies Carroll and Thomas could provide the quality depth you are talking about; that remains to be seen how fast they come up to speed. I don't remember any other Packer DBs that instilled any fear in me as a Vikings fan. For that matter, I would suspect whatever DBs the Packers put on the field will have a hard time dealing with Moss, Robinson, Burleson and Campbell should the Vikings decide to come out with any 4 WR sets.

The big thing the Packers may well have trouble with is run defense. Without Gilbert Brown plugging the middle, I expect the Packers to become very vulnerable to the run. Then it will be a matter of the Packers picking their poison....bring up 8 in the box to stop the run and get killed by the pass, or keep the safety back and get run on all day long.

Congratulations for the Packers winning the NFC North last season. It took a 4th and 28 miracle play on the final play of the season by Arizona for the Packers to win it. Up to that play, the Vikings had led the division since it began with a whipping of the Packers in Lambeau. The Vikings secondary and LB corps should be much improved this season, preventing the kind of midseason defensive collapse they had last year. Add to that the fact that the Vikings are pretty young overall, with many of their star players just entering their prime, while Brett Favre is a year or two from hanging it up. I predict the Vikings and Lions will be fighting it out for the NFC North title in 2005 and the forseeable future beyond. This year the Vikes and Pack will fight it out, but I think the Vikes will prevail.

whackthepack
07-16-2004, 11:25 AM
As Denny Green so profoundly put it "The proof is going to be in the pudding".

The cheeseheads can not stop are receivers (not with the guys the have right know).

TEXPACK
07-16-2004, 02:00 PM
Purplepat,

Once again, excellent points I guess I don't expect anyone to agree with everything I say. I have my slant and the people here have theres. It's building up to a fantastic season I hope both teams stay healthy. I hate it win the best don't play!

I think Jackson and Hunt aare solid up the middle. The Packers will need help from the back up tackles in the rotation. The Packers have drafted 4 DTs the last 2 years in less than the 3rd round certainly one should be able to step up. Kampman will be a solid 1st and second down DE opposite KGB. The other pass rusher may be Jason Gilden or someone else released before camp?

The troop of DBs McKenzie and Harris should be starters. I agree Harris is not a long term solution and should probably be relagated to Nickel or Dime. Michael Hawthorne is 6'3" CB may start on the right side especially over Moss. If he gets help over the top maybe Green Bay could limit his Yards after the catch. CB Chris Johnson was injured last year but, runs a sub 4.2 40yd dash and is 6'0" tall. Erwin Swiney is fast and physical a good run supporter and tackles well (Nebraska). Schools out on Ahmed Carroll and Joey Thomas the two rookies at least one should contribute right away.

I think the Packers strategy with the Vikings will be to stop the run on 1st down and switch quickly to nickel or dime on second and third to accomodate the formidable passing attack and speedy Bennett. So, I do think that the Packers will need tremendous depth at DB. The Vikings may counter this by employing a hurry up offensive strategy.

Sharper should be moved to SS and Roman to FS this would allow for Sharper to be involved in run support and be accounted for in case he blitzs. Fuller from TCU (my alma mater) should also be noted as a fairly decent backup safety.

The linebackers are O.K. Diggs and Barnett. Navies has experience, size, and seems to have overcome his greatest shortcomming--injuries.

The Vikings indeed may take the North crown this year but, don't expect us to give it away! The Packers mystique should no longer be questioned after the Vikings lost the title to a team which started out just 3-4. Bring your "A" game you'll need it. May the best team WIN, they always do in football!

RandyMoss8404
07-16-2004, 03:02 PM
Sub 4.2? Link.

edit: Sherman later gave up a sixth-round pick in next year’s draft to jump just a spot ahead of Oakland in the seventh round and select Louisville cornerback Chris Johnson, who had the fastest 40-yard dash (about 4.23 seconds) of all the prospects the Packers timed this year.

In short, he's as fast as Moss.

VKG4LFE
07-16-2004, 04:19 PM
Texpack, that is a very good description of the packer D. I also think Kampmann is a very good D lineman, at least from what he has done in his two years or so. You talk about McKenzie like he is going to be with you guys this year though? Is he still holding out, or did he finally break? I haven't heard much about him lately!! The biggest problem you guys will have (just like the rest of the league) is containing Moss, not stopping him. I may be biased (ok I am) but it will be tough for anybody to flat out stop his production. Shutting him down would be no TDs and under 50 yards!! I can't wait for the season to start.

TEXPACK
07-16-2004, 06:48 PM
Thank you Randy84 you are apparently well informed.

The Packers can only hope to limit Moss in yardage and keep him out of the endzone. The man is very tough to contain.

Mike McKenzie's status has not changed and I am speculating as are others he will return because he has a lot to lose by not and some major $$ to pay back. In recent history I have only known the great Barry Sanders to pay back his team and not return.

RandyMoss8404
07-16-2004, 09:36 PM
"TEXPACK" wrote:

Thank you Randy84 you are apparently well informed.

The Packers can only hope to limit Moss in yardage and keep him out of the endzone. The man is very tough to contain.

Mike McKenzie's status has not changed and I am speculating as are others he will return because he has a lot to lose by not and some major $$ to pay back. In recent history I have only known the great Barry Sanders to pay back his team and not return.

The problem you're not addressing, Tex, is that the sheer manpower needed to keep Moss under 100 yards and out of the end zone will mean that either Robinson is raping you deep, or Michael Bennett is going Barry Sanders on you guys.

TEXPACK
07-16-2004, 10:12 PM
Robinson won't be raping many deep this year he's a posession reciever. I am more afraid of him inside the 20 yard line.

Bennett is best stopped by disrupting the offensive line up the middle. He like most backs seem to be less threatening when he's facing the sidelines. Bennett isn't much to tackle if he's not at full speed. He wasn't in college and I don't see much difference now. The right side of the Vike O-line isn't very impressive. Odds are the vikings will run Left a lot this year. I look for the Packers to keep the Vikings under 24 points in Green Bay and less than 30 points in the dome.

Who's stopping Green Bay??

It will probably come down to turnovers it usually does.

TWISTED
07-16-2004, 10:52 PM
Another witty and insighful post TEXPACK. I saw the other day that the Vikings O-line was rated 2nd in the league. Right behind KC. Making them the best unit in the NFC. Also, I dont want Bennet runnin dive plays anyways. Thats what Moe and Ontario are for. Remember them?

RandyMoss8404
07-16-2004, 11:24 PM
"TEXPACK" wrote:

Robinson won't be raping many deep this year he's a posession reciever. I am more afraid of him inside the 20 yard line.

Bennett is best stopped by disrupting the offensive line up the middle. He like most backs seem to be less threatening when he's facing the sidelines. Bennett isn't much to tackle if he's not at full speed. He wasn't in college and I don't see much difference now. The right side of the Vike O-line isn't very impressive. Odds are the vikings will run Left a lot this year. I look for the Packers to keep the Vikings under 24 points in Green Bay and less than 30 points in the dome.

Who's stopping Green Bay??

It will probably come down to turnovers it usually does.

As someone who has lived his entire life in Chicago, Texpack, I can tell you that Robinson is a big play receiver.

ItalianStallion
07-17-2004, 12:12 AM
The right side of the line is pretty impressive when we got the sauce pancaking your LBs

TWISTED
07-17-2004, 12:51 AM
I don’t think it will be a one, two punch more like a 1,2,3,4 combo. If we spread out into 4 wide receiver set, that could be scary. Moss, Robinson, Burleson, and Cambell..... Talk about everything you need. Moss, the best receiver in the game. Robinson, the possession guy... also a proven veteran. Burleson, a do everything guy. Crisp routes, has speed, size and hands. Don’t try to cover him with a safety straight up. Then you have Cambell who's your little speed burner guy. Oooops we forgot about #16 and he's streakin down the sidelines. But there is no help back there b/c they sent Moss as a decoy. We saw plenty of that last year, and expect to see plenty more this year. Man, now that I think about it... this offense is gonna be scary good.

casper
07-17-2004, 01:33 AM
Dam let the games Begin

TEXPACK
07-17-2004, 11:42 AM
Twisted, Randy84, and others,

I appreciate all of your enthusiastic remarks about the Vikings. I agree you should field an improved team in 2004.

#1 I never stated Robinson wasn't a capable compliment to Moss. I just stated I didn't fear him going downfield on the Packers. That said I realize Burleson/Campbell are capable of stretching a defense. Of course this implies Culpepper has time to throw downfield.

I think the Packers would be better off letting that happen than letting Moss shred them again and again. One thing I have noticed in watching the Vikings play is that teams which seem to take Moss out of the game early usually never have to worry about him later in the game. Just an observation.

#2 I remember Moe and Ontario do you remember Hunt, Jackson, and Barnett? If the Vikings wish to run it down the Packers throats it is a MISTAKE! I don't think your interior line is consistantly capable of combination blocking essential for good traps. Simply put they are too big.

#3 The Vikings will give opponents a heavy dose of the Moss ratio and Bennett off tackle, draws, and counter draws. I think they should it has been a recipe of offensive success. What happens if Moss goes down with an ankle, knee, or toe for 3-5 weeks?

The Packers beat Minnesota soundly in the dome last year and the Vikings beat Green Bay at Lambeau. The Vikings must learn to win on the road or it will be another year of disappointments. The Packers will not lose to the Vikings at home again and I hope you all are not counting on it?

Let's face it there are good quality atheletes on both teams on both sides of the ball. All of them can rise to the challenge on any given Sunday. I think the Vikings may be better served looking for some better team players instead of better players on their team. If they had in the past you should have 5 superbowls.

LosAngelis
07-17-2004, 07:59 PM
I will give this up to y'all: Our DBackfield is definately our weakest area right now.

On the other hand, Walker has the potential to really be a star. He was a first-rounder for a reason, and he has the professional drive to succeed (he was already a minor league baseball player). However, he scored an 8 or something on the Wonderlic test, which places him somewhere around "tree fungus" in the football intellect world. My hopes is he's been a slow learner and is ready to take his physical skills and take over the game.

GreenBaySlackers
07-17-2004, 09:13 PM
"TEXPACK" wrote:

#3 The Vikings will give opponents a heavy dose of the Moss ratio and Bennett off tackle, draws, and counter draws. I think they should it has been a recipe of offensive success. What happens if Moss goes down with an ankle, knee, or toe for 3-5 weeks?

Then our reciever core will be almost as bad as yours :laughing3: