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View Full Version : A day to cool off...a week to ponder...



Caine
09-19-2005, 05:46 PM
Yesterdays game was one of the worst I have ever had the misfortune to watch. It was horrible on both sides of the ball.

The worst part about yesterdays game was that I couldn't watch it at home...I had to go to a public place with NFL Sunday Ticket, and sit there in shock for 3 quarters (I left after the 3rd or 4th INT...I don't recall exactly which). And, while there, I had to listen to Bears fans chortle with glee as they disassembled the Lions.

So, what did I see in my 3 quarters of misery?

1: Daunte looks lost. I know the "haters" out there will jump on this comment, but Daunte looks like he misses Moss a LOT right now. The FOX Commentators - whom I usually ignore - brought up an interesting point. It was that Randy forced Defenses into a specific set of coverages. With him gone, and NO ONE stepping up, Defenses are altering, switching, and changing with impunity...and Daunte isn't picking up on that.

Further, Daunte's timing is horrible. He sits in the pocket FAR too long before deciding what to do...and by then it's too late. He hesitates too long, allowing Defenses to lock down his receivers or develop their pressure. And when he does throw - as we;ve all seen - he seems to forget that it's the guys in the PURPLE helmets he's supposed to be throwing to.

2: The O-Line has no "Push". We have been MANHANDLED in both games. No holes for RB's and little time (which is wasted as I said above) for Daunte. It's gut check time. If that O-Line is going to get on track, it has to begin soon.

3: Our RB's are incapable. Bennett sealed his fate as a "former-Viking" after his 2-fumble preformance, IMO. We waited 3 years for him to get healthy...and he can't hang on to the football. He doesn't have the power to blast through the line, and he hesitates and 'dances" too much when attempting to hit the holes.

Mewelde isn't much better. I haven't been impressed with him at all. Moe is now showing signs of aging. Ever sure handed, watching Moe fumble and blow a reception (Which lead to an interception) in week 1 was hoffifying.

We need a power runner. Too bad we ignored all of the ones available this year in FA.

4: Tice is assuredly on the hot seat now. While I don't see him being let go until such a time as the play-offs are mathematically impossible (Creates too much controversy), I don't see him here next season if we don't turn it around....FAST. And, when he goes (IF he goes), I hope he takes Loney and Cottrell with him.

5: Paper Tigers. That's what we are right now. We have all the talent we should need...but no one is stepping up. We should in no way, shape, or form be in this position. There is simply NO EXCUSE for the complete crap the Vikes have put on the field these past two weeks. In fact, after yesterdays game, I can't find one single bright spot to look at.

I know that the ability is there, but it has to have a place to start...and no one is starting it off.

Our ONLY saving grace is the fact that everyone else in the NFCN is struggling too. But, if we are going to live up to our preseason potential, we have to STOP struggling NOW.

For me, it all begins with Daunte. You wanted to be the LEADER, Culpepper...NOW LEAD!!! Moss is gone, and with it all of the excuses about disharmony and distractions. Now we find out just how good you are. I gotta tell you, however, that if the first two weeks are any indication, then we traded the wrong "Leader".

Now, again, before the "haters" start jumping on that, I believe Daunte CAN rise above...I'm just wondering when he'll get around to doing it. He's starting to look like the '02 Culpepper. The one that threw for 18 TD's and 23 INT's. Except, if he keeps on this pace, it'll be 0 TD's and 64 INT's. In '02, he also fumbled 23 times.

Now, we have the Saints comming to town this weekend. The team playing for all the homeless and dispossessed people from New Orleans. A team with no "home" and a HUGE wave of emotion to ride. If we are going to start redeeming this season...we have to crush that wave...mercilessly. Because things just get tougher after that.

Caine

Del Rio
09-19-2005, 05:58 PM
Every person on here seemed to grasp the concept of a team having to gel at least they said they did.

I think with all of the changes we have had getting it all to fit together in a comfortable fashion is going to take up until about week 6, everyone was like OMFG we will be great ......oh yeah yeah I know after we gel...

TWO games later life is ending as we know it. Apparently gelling is a cool thing to say, but hard to understand. This team is so different then what it has been for 10 years that it has no identity. It needs to find that.

For the people burned over Moss, your anger must be frustrating. The only person you can really blame is Red, he is gone. The team is new and they are going to have to go through some tough times to get it together.

I believe that last game was rock bottom, a total collapse, the defense was horrible, the offense was horrible. I think we only go up from here.
(Caine none of that was directed at you)

ADubya26
09-19-2005, 06:02 PM
I agree Caine, nice post. We definitely have to beat the Saints soundly so we can establish some sort of confidence going into Atlanta and the bye week. If we don't beat NO, we will get spanked by ATL and we will go into the bye 0-4. I'm disappointed in any way possible, but we still have time to turn it around...the coaching doesn't make that too promising, but crazier things have happened.

Prophet
09-19-2005, 06:10 PM
I can't imagine the next game being any worse. There is a point where the team is so pathetic that a few more picks or fumbles are meaningless since the overall performance was pathetic.

The team will have to get over this and come out on fire. Start the season as as if game 3 is the first game. The team has the potential.

The coaching staff is pathetic and Homer Tice is the lead. I really don't think he can improve much, he can do his best but it just ain't going to be good enough.

I sure hope they turn things around, but as long as the weakest link is at the helm I have my doubts.

Mr. Purple
09-19-2005, 06:15 PM
Ya the thing is daunte thre 39 touchdowns last year, so far this year hes thrown 0 and 8 INT's...its not like the guy got bad over night, or he threw moss 39 td's last year. He isnt comfortable, hes almost learning all over again. The loss of birk and Lineahan has really hurt this offense and culpepper. Untill Looney looses his job, I dont think we'll see anything good come out of this offense.

Horns
09-19-2005, 06:17 PM
Caine,
I really can't argue with anything you said besides one minor point. I really think if we don't get behind so early we can run the ball. At the beginning of both games the O line seemed to open some holes for whoever was running. I saw promise with the ground game on the first drive until MB fumbled.

I really think Daunte and Coaching cost us the game this week and last. Daunte looks lost and the entire coaching staff looks dazed and unable to adjust and motivate. What is he looking at with those new reading glasses?

One more thing - Napolean Harris looked like a second string high school player on the womans field hockey team.

Del Rio
09-19-2005, 06:22 PM
I've said all along running the ball is easier then passing, even on lineman. A mixture of both is essential for an O-lineman to be succesful, but Horns you bring up a great point, when we get behind and we start playing catch up, the run game has to take a back seat.

Muggsy
09-19-2005, 07:04 PM
Amen, Caine......

The Gap
09-19-2005, 07:24 PM
Can you imagine if I’d have said these things? I wouldn’t be able to duck fast enough!
I still think it’s early and your competition won’t be significant but you have to do something this week. I truly believe a game like yesterday can light a fire that once burning can provide the momentum you need. Players react after they are embarrassed. Unfortunately Tice is really a handicap and although I always liked him I have to agree his days are numbered. My hope is he keeps his job until the off season because if my boys get there again it’s nice to know there’s another source for Super Bowl tickets out there.

PurplePeopleEaters
09-19-2005, 07:36 PM
In order to keep his job, I think tice will have to talk to each player or unit for that matter individually and figure out what is wrong so that we can fix it. There was so much bad going on in one game, that it was hard to figure out what to fix.

Good post Caine.

JDogg926
09-19-2005, 07:55 PM
This sounds crazy, but maybe we should go after Ricky Williams, we need that type of running back, that can take pressure off the passing game, and pick up 3-4 yards when there's no running room, and that won't wear down getting 25-30 touches a game.

Del Rio
09-19-2005, 07:56 PM
If the Vikings gave a RB more then 20 carries I would die. I don't think that has ever been the intention.

Caine
09-19-2005, 08:00 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

I've said all along running the ball is easier then passing, even on lineman. A mixture of both is essential for an O-lineman to be succesful, but Horns you bring up a great point, when we get behind and we start playing catch up, the run game has to take a back seat.

While being able to run the ball would bolster our struggling O-line, I honestly don't see anyone stepping up to run it.

Bennett has the speed, but no punch and fumbled twice. He doesn't HIT the hole...he dances through it...usually long enough for the Defense to gang tackle him (and strip the ball as well).

Moore shows flashes of talent...then sprains an ankle.

Williams is getting older, and doesn't have the break away speed.

Fason hasn't even played.

Smith was too busy to take a wizz-test, so he's sitting home eating Dorito's and giggling at the Ricky Williams interview on "60 Minutes".

Who's going to run the football? I'm still waiting for that ONE GUY to step up and say, "Damn it, Coach. I'M the man!!!! Give me the darn ball and let them know I'm commin'...and hell's commin' with me!!!!!" until someone does that, we're going airmail.

That - as Del points out - puts even more pressure on our O-Line. Add in Daunte's hesitation and indecisiveness, and our O-Line is in for a very loooong day.

The replays yesterday showed that guys were getting open....wide open in some cases....but Daunte isn't seeing them. He appears to be stuck in "Moss Mode" (Where he looked primarily to Moss on every play). He needs to learn to check down on the receivers quickly and pick his shot.

And, if he can't do that, he needs to tuck-n-run for awhile. At least until he starts getting more comfortable with teh Defensive packages we're now going to see.

But is all comes back to, "Who's going to step up"? On Offence, on Defense, who's going to say, "This is OUR game"...and make it stick. It isn't like we lack leadership on both sides of the ball. It isn't like there is a shortage of playmakers. It isn't like we're the Packers (Although at least THEIR Offence got rolling for a bit yesterday...they made a game of it at least).

Who's it going to be? On "O", it HAS to be Daunte. His game has been rotten these past couple weeks. On "D"...I'm still waiting.

Caine

OchoCinco
09-19-2005, 08:04 PM
The worst part about yesterdays game was that I couldn't watch it at home...I had to go to a public place with NFL Sunday Ticket, and sit there in shock for 3 quarters (I left after the 3rd or 4th INT...I don't recall exactly which). And, while there, I had to listen to Bears fans chortle with glee as they disassembled the Lions.


I can imagine how you feel, but image sitting ate the game like I was and listen to 60,000 yell "who dey" for 4 hours....and everything else under the sun, including, us not being able to contain them or Chad Johnson, taunting our bench after each interception, and asking Cullpepper what team he was playing for.....not to mention the "overrated" chants...it was hell on earth brother......

EJOlson9973
09-19-2005, 08:09 PM
I have to say there are many problems, from coaching to defense. But I think a big part is the run game. 55 yards a game, that sucks. We need a pound it out runner who get tough yards and take the pressure off Daunte always having to pass the ball. Bennet may be fast but if he gets touched he is down, or fumbles. Obviously this is not going to fix everything, but it needs to be dealt with.

We need a pound it out runner!!!

GO VIKES!!

JDogg926
09-19-2005, 08:10 PM
I have the ticket, and I still couldn't watch it at home yesterday. Bunch of crap!

UkViking
09-19-2005, 08:43 PM
The run has got to be established but can this O step up and make some holes and can our RB,s hold the ball and find the holes.Tice and Viking players over to you.

JDogg926
09-19-2005, 08:55 PM
Amidst the fumbling, the fact that Bennett picked up 36 yards on 3 carries seems to be lost. Had he hung on to the ball early, he could have been on his way to a big game.

Caine
09-19-2005, 10:25 PM
"JDogg926" wrote:

Amidst the fumbling, the fact that Bennett picked up 36 yards on 3 carries seems to be lost. Had he hung on to the ball early, he could have been on his way to a big game.

Yes, he DID produce..until fumble #1 and fumble #2. When you fumble once, the coach bends your ear and you go out there determined not to do it again. When you do it again...almost immediately...you get benched. Ask Ahman Green about that.

Someone once said to me, "1 awwww shite is worth 10000 atta-boys"...that's absolutely true. Bennett averaged 12 yards per carry...but gave the ball away. In real terms, Bennett gained absolutely nothing.

I am now in "Looking to next week" mode. Hopefully, the coaching staff is correcting problems and improving our team...if not, someone let them know that I'm available and will work for Tice's fine.

Caine

snowinapril
09-19-2005, 10:42 PM
"The Gap" wrote:

Can you imagine if I’d have said these things? I wouldn’t be able to duck fast enough!
I still think it’s early and your competition won’t be significant but you have to do something this week. I truly believe a game like yesterday can light a fire that once burning can provide the momentum you need. Players react after they are embarrassed. Unfortunately Tice is really a handicap and although I always liked him I have to agree his days are numbered. My hope is he keeps his job until the off season because if my boys get there again it’s nice to know there’s another source for Super Bowl tickets out there.

That is true. Against the Bucs, we were like OK, we can win games, and not much urgency. This week, after the Bengals loss, our guys better take their future seriously and their opponents.

ultravikingfan
09-19-2005, 11:12 PM
Although I am very shocked and dissaoppointed in our Offense, the Defensive play of the Vikes is atrocios!

I realize that they had to be on the field a lot more than they should have a la the turnover. But to get burned like they did...sad! We play such a panzy game right from the start! Why can't we get in the face of other WR's and throw their timing off. 1. You can get physical within 5 yards and try to re-route the WR. 2. Getting physical ruins the timing of the play, resulting in the QB holding the ball which equals hurried pass with the possibility of getting a pick or at least imcoplete. Or, we can just sack the QB!

And the coverges were terrible. I do not think AW did a good job at coverage...wait, nobody did!

I am going to watch it again and really pay attention to the little things.

snowinapril
09-19-2005, 11:17 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:

Although I am very shocked and dissaoppointed in our Offense, the Defensive play of the Vikes is atrocios!

I realize that they had to be on the field a lot more than they should have a la the turnover. But to get burned like they did...sad! We play such a panzy game right from the start! Why can't we get in the face of other WR's and throw their timing off. 1. You can get physical within 5 yards and try to re-route the WR. 2. Getting physical ruins the timing of the play, resulting in the QB holding the ball which equals hurried pass with the possibility of getting a pick or at least imcoplete. Or, we can just sack the QB!

And the coverges were terrible. I do not think AW did a good job at coverage...wait, nobody did!

I am going to watch it again and really pay attention to the little things.

They did some good things in week one, I am just going to chalk this one up to a BAD week. I will be more disgusted if it happens again.

ultravikingfan
09-19-2005, 11:23 PM
A few good things, but I was not convinced after week 1. They did show some flares, but those flares were extinguished yesterday.

COJOMAY
09-19-2005, 11:24 PM
For those of you still wanting Moss bacvk, thinking he's our savior...remember when he was gone for several games last year. We still had a passing attack and a running attack. This goes MUCH DEEPER than Moss just being gone.

PurplePeopleEaters
09-19-2005, 11:29 PM
"COJOMAY" wrote:

For those of you still wanting Moss bacvk, thinking he's our savior...remember when he was gone for several games last year. We still had a passing attack and a running attack. This goes MUCH DEEPER than Moss just being gone.

That's what I keep saying to myself when people say "HAHA YOU GUYS R TEH NOOBS AND SUCKKKK WITHOUT RANDY" :roll: I keep thinking "Then how were we good for those 5 games? What happened between last year and this year other than randy being gone?"

ultravikingfan
09-19-2005, 11:33 PM
"PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:

That's what I keep saying to myself when people say "HAHA YOU GUYS R TEH NOOBS AND SUCKKKK WITHOUT RANDY" :roll: I keep thinking "Then how were we good for those 5 games? What happened between last year and this year other than randy being gone?"

We got pummeled in our first 2 games!

But, I would rather start off losing than tank in week 7 and have no momentum going into the playoffs!

PurplePackerEater
09-19-2005, 11:52 PM
"COJOMAY" wrote:

For those of you still wanting Moss bacvk, thinking he's our savior...remember when he was gone for several games last year. We still had a passing attack and a running attack. This goes MUCH DEEPER than Moss just being gone.

Moss was so much this team's (mostly Daunte's) "crutch" that they even had him on the feild KNOWING dam well he COULD NOT play.

Do the Rams put Holt on the feild limping and only able to jog? Not.

Ltrey33
09-19-2005, 11:56 PM
"ultravikingfan" wrote:

"PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:

That's what I keep saying to myself when people say "HAHA YOU GUYS R TEH NOOBS AND SUCKKKK WITHOUT RANDY" :roll: I keep thinking "Then how were we good for those 5 games? What happened between last year and this year other than randy being gone?"

We got pummeled in our first 2 games!

But, I would rather start off losing than tank in week 7 and have no momentum going into the playoffs!

Very true...it's best to suck early on than get all hyped up about a good start and then be crushed. Like I said before, at least this is variety!

Caine
09-20-2005, 01:21 AM
"PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:

"COJOMAY" wrote:

For those of you still wanting Moss bacvk, thinking he's our savior...remember when he was gone for several games last year. We still had a passing attack and a running attack. This goes MUCH DEEPER than Moss just being gone.

That's what I keep saying to myself when people say "HAHA YOU GUYS R TEH NOOBS AND SUCKKKK WITHOUT RANDY" :roll: I keep thinking "Then how were we good for those 5 games? What happened between last year and this year other than randy being gone?"

But we weren't good for those 5 games.

We lost Moss in New Orleans (Week 6), but won because the Saints didn't prepare for us without Moss.

In week 7 (Game 1 w/o Moss), we beat the Titans. Of course, they were banged up too... and this was 1 of 2 games all season that the "D" showed up for.

Week 8, we got DECIMATED by the Giants...I still don't want to talk about taht game.

Week 9, lost to Indy...but Indy wasn't known for "D" in '04.

week 10, lost to Green Bay due to the Officials blowing a critical call.

week 11, beat Detroit...because they fumbled the snap on the field goal attempt.

Week 12, Randy returns to beat Jacksonville.

So, we DIDN"T do good when Randy was gone...we faced some poor Defenses and got real lucky. Now, however, we have no one who DEMANDS that type of coverage.

Caine

PurplePeopleEaters
09-20-2005, 01:41 AM
"Caine" wrote:

"PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:

"COJOMAY" wrote:

For those of you still wanting Moss bacvk, thinking he's our savior...remember when he was gone for several games last year. We still had a passing attack and a running attack. This goes MUCH DEEPER than Moss just being gone.

That's what I keep saying to myself when people say "HAHA YOU GUYS R TEH NOOBS AND SUCKKKK WITHOUT RANDY" :roll: I keep thinking "Then how were we good for those 5 games? What happened between last year and this year other than randy being gone?"

But we weren't good for those 5 games.

We lost Moss in New Orleans (Week 6), but won because the Saints didn't prepare for us without Moss.

In week 7 (Game 1 w/o Moss), we beat the Titans. Of course, they were banged up too... and this was 1 of 2 games all season that the "D" showed up for.

Week 8, we got DECIMATED by the Giants...I still don't want to talk about taht game.

Week 9, lost to Indy...but Indy wasn't known for "D" in '04.

week 10, lost to Green Bay due to the Officials blowing a critical call.

week 11, beat Detroit...because they fumbled the snap on the field goal attempt.

Week 12, Randy returns to beat Jacksonville.

So, we DIDN"T do good when Randy was gone...we faced some poor Defenses and got real lucky. Now, however, we have no one who DEMANDS that type of coverage.

Caine

Then basically the time he was gone accounts for nothing. Now take our offense and make it play as well as it did then and give us the same defense we have now. I bet we would have won all of those games but the giants. Something is different with Daunte and it is not just Moss and Linehan. He seems like a different person out there.

PurplePackerEater
09-20-2005, 02:26 AM
"PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:

"Caine" wrote:

"PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:

"COJOMAY" wrote:

For those of you still wanting Moss bacvk, thinking he's our savior...remember when he was gone for several games last year. We still had a passing attack and a running attack. This goes MUCH DEEPER than Moss just being gone.

That's what I keep saying to myself when people say "HAHA YOU GUYS R TEH NOOBS AND SUCKKKK WITHOUT RANDY" :roll: I keep thinking "Then how were we good for those 5 games? What happened between last year and this year other than randy being gone?"

But we weren't good for those 5 games.

We lost Moss in New Orleans (Week 6), but won because the Saints didn't prepare for us without Moss.

In week 7 (Game 1 w/o Moss), we beat the Titans. Of course, they were banged up too... and this was 1 of 2 games all season that the "D" showed up for.

Week 8, we got DECIMATED by the Giants...I still don't want to talk about taht game.

Week 9, lost to Indy...but Indy wasn't known for "D" in '04.

week 10, lost to Green Bay due to the Officials blowing a critical call.

week 11, beat Detroit...because they fumbled the snap on the field goal attempt.

Week 12, Randy returns to beat Jacksonville.

So, we DIDN"T do good when Randy was gone...we faced some poor Defenses and got real lucky. Now, however, we have no one who DEMANDS that type of coverage.

Caine

Then basically the time he was gone accounts for nothing. Now take our offense and make it play as well as it did then and give us the same defense we have now. I bet we would have won all of those games but the giants. Something is different with Daunte and it is not just Moss and Linehan. He seems like a different person out there.

Correct. Defenses' are playing us differently (without Moss) and the coaches have failed to make that change, therefore Daunte is unprepared.

It's so painfully obvious.

Paulbedy59
09-20-2005, 02:38 AM
I agree they need to gell and find a personality,I was figuring on about 3-5 at the halfway point.But to be honest,I never,ever figured it would get this bad.It was so bad even by buddies who rib me and visa versa left me alone.(good friends) they could easily have gone for the kill.LOL. Mercy can at times be a lovely thing!!

Del Rio
09-20-2005, 02:03 PM
Lots of things happened between this year and last year besides the departure of Randy.

New OC

New QB coach

New Owner

New personel

New Wr's (Taylor, Williamson)

No Onterio Smith (our best RB)

Young O-line, departure of Vetran O-line

Our old guys got a year older lol

The list goes on.........personally there are more likely suspects on that list then Mr. Moss being gone.

Caine
09-20-2005, 03:44 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

Lots of things happened between this year and last year besides the departure of Randy.

New OC

New QB coach

New Owner

New personel

New Wr's (Taylor, Williamson)

No Onterio Smith (our best RB)

Young O-line, departure of Vetran O-line

Our old guys got a year older lol

The list goes on.........personally there are more likely suspects on that list then Mr. Moss being gone.

I - respectfully - disagree.

New OC and QB Coach is a big issue, and does affect Daunte directly. So far - obviously - neither have shown that they are filling the roles adequately.

New Owner is a HUGE positive. Wilf has already done something that the Goat-Grabber wouldn't do....spend money. While that alone won't win a championship, it's a step in the right direction.

New Personel - primarily Defensive. This doesn't really explain why there has been so many turnovers or general lack of offensive productivity.

New Wr's (Taylor, Williamson) - and Robinson (Although we haven't seen him yet). Taylor is steppiong up and Williamson had some deep catches versus the Bengals, so this is again a positive. Nate appears to be injured, so Robinson becomes even more important.

No Onterio Smith (our best RB) - This one is huge. With Bennett crying about being benched (You fumbled TWICE!!!!! What did you expect?!?!!?) and Moore showing nothing, the loss of Smith is even more painfully obvious. I hope that was some darn good weed, Onterrio....

Young O-line, departure of Vetran O-line - Birk was lost, and that has been big, but I can't think of anyone else lost in the off season except Dixon (Who isn't playing anywhere). maybe they should consider bringing him back (Grasping at straws here...).

Our old guys got a year older lol - We weren't that old to begin with. :razz:

While all of these are contributing factors - some pro, some con - I still believe that the Moss trade is the single biggest reason for our lack of offensive spark. Of course, since that is long over and done, the trick is to find ways to offset that loss...something our coaching staff has been unable to do. We are now seeing the excuses come rolling out in the press conferences (Daunte's hurt, we're not stepping up, Defense on the field too long, etc), and all of these are also valid...to a point. But teh bottom line is that we have 90% of the best offense in teh NFL....why can't we score.

The answer...turnovers. Stop throwing to the other team, and we might actually complete a drive or two. Daunte needs to refocus himself...or we have to put Johnson in (And I cringe saying that) to scare Daunte into finding his center.

Caine

Del Rio
09-20-2005, 04:02 PM
This wasn't an attempt to sell anything. Someone asked ealier in the thread what has happened in the offseason other then the Moss trade.

Essentially what he was saying was we were a playoff team last year, this year we are very bad, we had Moss now we don't. So therefore we must be suffering because we have no Randy. That's a fallacy. There was a lot going on between then and now.

There's no doubt in my mind Randy being gone hurt the team in some way, and realistically it is most likely a combination between a lot of things.


To put so much emphasis on one player on a team of many is way off base IMO. Especially when there were changes to the team that encompass more then one dimension of the game. Such as an offensive cord, that is in charge of running the entire show.

Everyone is entitled to credit this collapse to Moss, personally I think that is wrong, but to each his own. Every time I hear it though all I can think of is some bitter fan that had been holding on to that anger for 5 months waiting to be able to SCREAM I told you so, as if it makes it better, or as if he/she was even right at all. IMO they aren't right so to me when I hear that angle it just makes me smile, that is the easy way out, it is tunnel vision, and it totally ignores the majority of our team, it ignores fundementals of the game, it ignores bigger issues that were present while Randy was here, issues that kept us from winning with Moss on our team.

I imagine if he is bigger then the game, like most here credit him with, every where he went his hands would be weighed down with rings.

COJOMAY
09-20-2005, 04:10 PM
I agree with your assessment 100% Del Rio. That's the point I was making. Many changes have taken place and none of them good with the exception of Wilf buying the team. I still believe that Tice couldn't handle Randy -- a mark of a good coach. I think Tice's game planning is poor and the offense and defensive plans are over all very simple and seldom change and when they try something new, it fails and they go back to the same simplistic plan again. Injuries to Birk have hurt as well as the departure of Smith. So there's plenty of blame to go around but I have NO DOUBT that Wilf will take care of things and soon!

Del Rio
09-20-2005, 04:12 PM
"Caine" wrote:

"PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:

"COJOMAY" wrote:

For those of you still wanting Moss bacvk, thinking he's our savior...remember when he was gone for several games last year. We still had a passing attack and a running attack. This goes MUCH DEEPER than Moss just being gone.

That's what I keep saying to myself when people say "HAHA YOU GUYS R TEH NOOBS AND SUCKKKK WITHOUT RANDY" :roll: I keep thinking "Then how were we good for those 5 games? What happened between last year and this year other than randy being gone?"

But we weren't good for those 5 games.

We lost Moss in New Orleans (Week 6), but won because the Saints didn't prepare for us without Moss.

In week 7 (Game 1 w/o Moss), we beat the Titans. Of course, they were banged up too... and this was 1 of 2 games all season that the "D" showed up for.

Week 8, we got DECIMATED by the Giants...I still don't want to talk about taht game.

Week 9, lost to Indy...but Indy wasn't known for "D" in '04.

week 10, lost to Green Bay due to the Officials blowing a critical call.

week 11, beat Detroit...because they fumbled the snap on the field goal attempt.

Week 12, Randy returns to beat Jacksonville.

So, we DIDN"T do good when Randy was gone...we faced some poor Defenses and got real lucky. Now, however, we have no one who DEMANDS that type of coverage.

Caine


Yes the point being that the passing game was still effective without Moss, we didn't win all the games he was out, but after the Titans game, people produced even without Moss demanding those coverages.

I think it would be safe to say that even if we had that ammount of production that last two games we would have had a chance to win.

Caine
09-20-2005, 04:33 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"Caine" wrote:

"PurplePeopleEaters" wrote:

"COJOMAY" wrote:

For those of you still wanting Moss bacvk, thinking he's our savior...remember when he was gone for several games last year. We still had a passing attack and a running attack. This goes MUCH DEEPER than Moss just being gone.

That's what I keep saying to myself when people say "HAHA YOU GUYS R TEH NOOBS AND SUCKKKK WITHOUT RANDY" :roll: I keep thinking "Then how were we good for those 5 games? What happened between last year and this year other than randy being gone?"

But we weren't good for those 5 games.

We lost Moss in New Orleans (Week 6), but won because the Saints didn't prepare for us without Moss.

In week 7 (Game 1 w/o Moss), we beat the Titans. Of course, they were banged up too... and this was 1 of 2 games all season that the "D" showed up for.

Week 8, we got DECIMATED by the Giants...I still don't want to talk about taht game.

Week 9, lost to Indy...but Indy wasn't known for "D" in '04.

week 10, lost to Green Bay due to the Officials blowing a critical call.

week 11, beat Detroit...because they fumbled the snap on the field goal attempt.

Week 12, Randy returns to beat Jacksonville.

So, we DIDN"T do good when Randy was gone...we faced some poor Defenses and got real lucky. Now, however, we have no one who DEMANDS that type of coverage.

Caine


Yes the point being that the passing game was still effective without Moss, we didn't win all the games he was out, but after the Titans game, people produced even without Moss demanding those coverages.

I think it would be safe to say that even if we had that ammount of production that last two games we would have had a chance to win.
Versus Tampa, we would have...versus Cincy, I think not. WE got pounded there.

Again, at the risk of being pepetative (Which I will be), I am not going to pounce in week 10 saying, "See...I told you we needed Moss". I see that as counter-productive. That said, I do see the Moss trade as the single largest contributing factor to our Offensive woes.

I believe that all the other changes are significant as well, and when added to the Moss trade create...well...obviously a crappy offense.

But, I can't understand WHY it's so crappy. With the receiver corps we have, and the QB we have, we should be out there blazing up and down the field. Why aren't we? Why is Culpepper so inaccurate? Why aren't the receivers that are open being seen? Why is he trying to force bad plays? Why so many stinking turnovers?

We lost O-line players before. Adn, we changed OC's before too...never with this degree of drop off in production. Granted, it's week 2, but what we've been shown thus far is downright frightening!!!

So, rest assured that there is no "Moss Hammer" waiting to slam on anyone's head. At the same time, I think his presence would have - and did - mask many of our other deficiencies. One player alone cannot win a championship...and Red *goat-poker* McCombs proved that by never fielding a Defense, then blaming Daunte and Randy for our failure. But, one player alone CAN raise the level of play on his side of the ball...and Randy certainly did that.

So, since he is gone, and all of our weaknesses are showing (and then some), what now? Fire Tice? Create even more turmoil? That isn't the answer...yet (Although it may be after this season unless the ship gets righted).

I'm not lamenting the trade, although I still disagree with it. I'm as shocked as everyone else by our offensive collapse. I figured there would be a short term drop off, and that we would complensate and move forward...I never expected a full blown derailment.

The Vikings were recently picked as one of the teams most likely to implode. When Denny was here, we could all see it comming...this one is hitting out of the blue. And, frankly, I'm baffled.

Caine

Del Rio
09-20-2005, 04:43 PM
Something neglected against Cinci is the defense was horrible. That's why I said I hope last week was rock bottom, because we failed as a team.

Caine
09-20-2005, 06:25 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

Something neglected against Cinci is the defense was horrible. That's why I said I hope last week was rock bottom, because we failed as a team.

Oh, I absolutely agree with that. As I said earlier, I couldn't find anything positive about the Cincy game.

I am starting to look seriously at our Coaching situation as well...and I'm not finding any positives there either.

Caine

VKG4LFE
09-20-2005, 06:28 PM
New Wr's (Taylor, Williamson)- and Robinson (Although we haven't seen him yet). Taylor is steppiong up and Williamson had some deep catches versus the Bengals, so this is again a positive. Nate appears to be injured, so Robinson becomes even more important.


When did he have big catches downfield. I recall one catch and that was for 20 yards and he ran for about 10 after the catch. Did I miss something?

Jviking
09-20-2005, 06:30 PM
Caine, you summed up all of my thoughts. What to do now????
I would like to be a fly on the wall in Zygi's office...

VKG4LFE
09-20-2005, 06:32 PM
Does Zygi speak english? lol

StillPurple
09-20-2005, 06:55 PM
I have to say Sunday (Bengals game) was one of the worst days of my life as a Vikings fan. It was just horrible. It only hit me later in the day, when some fan was asking me "what happened?". It all came out. I said, for the first time in my life, I was actually ashamed of what we put out on the field on a Sunday. Even that horrific 41-0 loss at NY Giants was not as bad, because, hey, at least we were one game from the "Show" back then. This one really hurt.

Anyway, I had mailed my brother up in MN last week, and said, "I hope Culpepper doesn't try to do too much, and just lets the defense win it". Man, was I wrong. The defense gave up one huge play after the next. So Culpepper had no cushion to fall back on. Let's face it, 14-0 is hard for any QB, and the tendency is to "get one" right now. I also can't really blame a QB who threw for like 4,000 yards and 39 TDs last year to think "I can do this". Wouldn't you ? Against the Bengals defense ?? Then Bennett funmbles twice. The snowball starts to roll down that hill, and you know Tice, C-pepper, Loney and co are not going to stop it at this point. Can you imagine that happening to a Bill Parcells team or a Bellichek team ? He would call a long timeout and have a talk with the assistants. I think cretain veterans at that point would stand up and say, "not with me, man, I am going to start playing". Let's face it, this is pro football and it is half about emotion and focus (the other half is skill). Daunte, after that 3rd INT, should have been throwin only fakes, and running it, and then hit the first guy not in Purple he saw, just to spark the team and to get rid of some frustration. I mean, imagine you are 265, 6-4, and like him. I would have said in the huddle, "I am running downfield and I am knocking over a linebacker, who is with me ?!". That tends to fire up a defense. Remember the hit Elway took in their first Super Bowl win ? It fired the team up !

Anyway, I also think that the Vikings need to have a clinic on how to not fumble, a la Tiki Barber did when he went from being a fumbler to not being a fumbler. It is learnable, as he shows.

The offense has to throw more short routes, because if they don't the defense just draws back and tees off on your recievers. They need to throw a slant or two. Why does C-pepper always have to take a 4-step drop ? Why don't the receivers run shorter routes ? Why does Daunte think Burleson can leap like Randy could ? Why don't they throw to the running backs more ? I thought this was supposed to be the Joe Bugel/Redskins-type offense, with a lot of throws the backs and tight ends ? All I see is Daunte standing forever in the pocket, and the receivers running 30-yard routes, and being covered.

Am I missing something ? The offense is just too one-dimensional. And when you only run the ball 12 times in both games, you get one-dimensional, and the defense just tees off on you.

Ultimately, I think the team will be better.

Here is my 5-point plan:

1. I agree the team just has to gel, as was stated above. It might take 5 games. Please remember defenses gel faster than offenses, too.

2. Culpepper has to quit forcing things, and let what comes come. He also needs to run a lot more.

3. They need to run short routes and 2-step drops to keep the defense pinned on the line of scrimmage. THEN, throw deep.

4. When man coverage is not working, try zone. Don't be "married" to onc type of coverage.

5. Everyone needs to relax. There is next Sunday.

Caine
09-20-2005, 09:30 PM
"VKG4LFE" wrote:

New Wr's (Taylor, Williamson)- and Robinson (Although we haven't seen him yet). Taylor is steppiong up and Williamson had some deep catches versus the Bengals, so this is again a positive. Nate appears to be injured, so Robinson becomes even more important.


When did he have big catches downfield. I recall one catch and that was for 20 yards and he ran for about 10 after the catch. Did I miss something?

1st catch was the 2nd to last play of 3rd quarter - caught pass for 21 yards.

2nd catch was the opening catch of the TD drive - caught for 23 yards.

Caine

StillPurple
09-20-2005, 09:47 PM
Re the Bengals game: why is it that when Joey Harrington throws 5 INTs, it just means the Bears defense is that good, but when Daunte does it, it shows that he is "degenerating" in his skills ? Just wodering about that. If Favre throws 4 picks, his "receivers didn't run under it", but noone says that about Daunte. I felt the first pick that Daunte threw vs. Tampa was clearly a case of the reciever not running his route. I think we have too many young, new players on the team, and that is screwing us up. The QB ALWAYS takes the bleme and glory. But it is not just about Daunte. On offense, I see a lot of guys who are not familiar with each other over 4 quarters of real NFL play (!).

On defense, it is the same. I also see no clear captain on defense. I think too many guys are expecting other guys to step up, but at some point, there will be a clear leader, like Cowart or Sharper.

Caine
09-20-2005, 11:17 PM
"StillPurple" wrote:

Re the Bengals game: why is it that when Joey Harrington throws 5 INTs, it just means the Bears defense is that good, but when Daunte does it, it shows that he is "degenerating" in his skills ? Just wodering about that. If Favre throws 4 picks, his "receivers didn't run under it", but noone says that about Daunte. I felt the first pick that Daunte threw vs. Tampa was clearly a case of the reciever not running his route. I think we have too many young, new players on the team, and that is screwing us up. The QB ALWAYS takes the bleme and glory. But it is not just about Daunte. On offense, I see a lot of guys who are not familiar with each other over 4 quarters of real NFL play (!).

On defense, it is the same. I also see no clear captain on defense. I think too many guys are expecting other guys to step up, but at some point, there will be a clear leader, like Cowart or Sharper.

When Joey Harrington throws 5 picks, it's because Joey Harrington isn't that good of a QB...that's a given.

When Favre throws 4 picks, it's because the Packers are in the Play-Offs.

When Daunte throws 3 picks one week and 5 the next, PLUS fumbles twice, there's a serious problem in Minnesota.

Sure, there are contributing factors, but the bottom line is - and always has been - you threw/dropped the ball, you own the pick/fumble.

Our Defense was shell shocked last weekend. Bad play on one side of the ball does affect the other side. And we had bad play on BOTH sides of the ball.

I am hopeful that our Coaches have had an epiphany and have instituted the changes neccessary in our team to garner success (Yeah, I'm a die-hard sucker). I am frustrated by our play thus far, but then so is every other Viking fan, the players, coaches, and the owner. We CAN dig ourselves out of this hole...all it takes is a spark.

Caine