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smootpepper
08-29-2005, 07:06 PM
What should we do with this guy??? So far this preseason he has cost us 3 touchdowns, and 2 on blown coverages. Should we give ralph brown a shot at nickel or maybe toss my man gallishaw in there. He is lucky that everyone is blaming sharper and chavous for all his mistakes. For someone that held out because he lost his starting spot to smoot, he really isnt giving us much reason to even keep him around for a nick or dime back.

Jets game, williamson falls down in the endzine on 1 TD. it happens, no big deal.

jets game, williams stops coverage and falls into zone next to sharper. Making it look like sharper forgot to cover someone when in fact Williams was supposed to stay with his man and sharper would zone coverage the gap left by willaims.

Chargers, Winfield and Williams both take off covering the same guy, When in fact williams was supposed to cover the guy that was wide open for the TD also making chavous look like he was out of place and getting to the play late.

whackthepack
08-29-2005, 07:12 PM
I think that Brown will be the Nickel and that Williams will be the dime back.

I really have liked the play of Gallishaw and I am hoping that he makes the practice squad!!!

smootpepper
08-29-2005, 07:22 PM
"whackthepack" wrote:

I think that Brown will be the Nickel and that Williams will be the dime back.

I really have liked the play of Gallishaw and I am hoping that he makes the practice squad!!!

I think Gallishaw will make the team. We need the extra depth at CB.

This is how I see them ranked right now. If anything ward will make the pratice squad, and gallishaw will be playing limited amounts. And the only reason I have williams over gallishaw right now is because he should know the defense a little better then Gallishaw.

Winfield
Smoot
Brown
Williams
Gallishaw
Ward

BTW how many CB's does a team usually carry through a season anyway?

Del Rio
08-29-2005, 07:27 PM
The Jets game Winfield gave up some huge plays three of them to be exact 2 of which went for 18+ yards.

It looked to me Sharper was supposed to be over the top only he screwed up and he is known to do that.

If Williams sucks it up during the season I am sure he will get replaced, but I think he will be staying where he is for at least a few weeks.

smootpepper
08-29-2005, 07:34 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

The Jets game Winfield gave up some huge plays three of them to be exact 2 of which went for 18+ yards.

It looked to me Sharper was supposed to be over the top only he screwed up and he is known to do that.

If Williams sucks it up during the season I am sure he will get replaced, but I think he will be staying where he is for at least a few weeks.

Nope, I just heard on Kfan this AM that it was all williams on those plays. This comes from within the Viking organizaion. Winfield did give up some plays, but he really didnt blow any coverages. I have faith that Winfield will get back to his form by week 1 or 2 of the season.

Del Rio
08-29-2005, 07:38 PM
The only play ever in question was the TD that Sharper was in the area as well.

Winfield just plain sucked that game he got beat many times, just like he did against the chargers. He hasn't given up any TD's but he has been giving up yards hand over fist.

I don't care but to be crying over two pre-season games is premature, just like Winfield getting burned repeatedly I expect they will tighten up when the season begins, I'm sorry Brown is not better the Williams.

smootpepper
08-29-2005, 07:55 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

The only play ever in question was the TD that Sharper was in the area as well.

Winfield just plain sucked that game he got beat many times, just like he did against the chargers. He hasn't given up any TD's but he has been giving up yards hand over fist.

I don't care but to be crying over two pre-season games is premature, just like Winfield getting burned repeatedly I expect they will tighten up when the season begins, I'm sorry Brown is not better the Williams.

I agree with everything except williams being better then brown. :smile:
At least so far this year.

I guess I use preseaon to gauge who is where they're supposed to be on the field. Since you cant be a play maker if you're not near the play.

Dont get me wrong though, I actually like williams. Blown coverages happen, but for blown coverages to happen 2 times in 2 games, and both being williams fault has me a little worried if he should be on the field.

But like you said, its preseason and means little to nothing. Its only good to evaluate talent and get the starters prepared for the season.

michaelmazid
08-29-2005, 08:09 PM
I wouldn't be too worried since it is only pre-season football. B.Williams has spent the whole year last year proving himself. He is a great nickle and he won't be in minny past this year. He'll be a starter somewhere next year

canadian_vikes_fan
08-29-2005, 08:23 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

The only play ever in question was the TD that Sharper was in the area as well.

Winfield just plain sucked that game he got beat many times, just like he did against the chargers. He hasn't given up any TD's but he has been giving up yards hand over fist.

I don't care but to be crying over two pre-season games is premature, just like Winfield getting burned repeatedly I expect they will tighten up when the season begins, I'm sorry Brown is not better the Williams.I guess you have to say that considering he is your son. :lol:

Anyways, I agree with you. Williams missed all the mini-camps and he's just catching up. I think that in time he will be perfectly fine. He was adequate as a starting cornerback last year, and he'll do fine as a nickel back. But if he doesn't snap out of it within another 2-3 games, he will be replaced by Ralph Brown.

Del Rio
08-29-2005, 08:26 PM
I know I HAVE to like the guy :grin: He's my red headed step child!

VikingsTw
08-29-2005, 08:41 PM
This is a good thread and i am a bit concerned about it. I havn't seen all the games but i have seen B Will make mistakes in all of the games he played, most notably the chargers game, which i'm watching at the moment. I'm a big B Will fan i believe he makes plays but i lost some respect for the dude when he held out like a lil b*tch. What he should have done as took it like EJ, maned up got his but to work and now he's making plays at WSL and doin it well. I think he'll be ok i'd never give Ralph Brown the job before the regualar season starts, NEVER! I will wait to see what happens when the season starts.

Brian Williams play making ability, hard hitting, and experience is enough to get him to the regular season without getting demoted.

whackthepack
08-29-2005, 09:08 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

The only play ever in question was the TD that Sharper was in the area as well.

Winfield just plain sucked that game he got beat many times, just like he did against the chargers. He hasn't given up any TD's but he has been giving up yards hand over fist.

I don't care but to be crying over two pre-season games is premature, just like Winfield getting burned repeatedly I expect they will tighten up when the season begins, I'm sorry Brown is not better the Williams.


Talent wise I think that Williams is better, but in the 3 preseason games so far Williams looks terrible and Brown has out played him. Does not mean that B-Will can not change that around, but right now I would go with Ralph over Brian if the season was starting this week.

And I am not that thrilled with the play of Willy Offord so far this preseason. He has looked as bad as williams and needs to get his shit together or we need to start looking for somebody that can get the job done. When is Fox do back? I heard he got his cast off!

PAvikesfan
08-29-2005, 09:16 PM
williams has been sucking it up, but ralph brown a better option...nonsense!

our defense really hasn't impressed me much at all yet overall... they look like they don't even know each others' names yet... i think they needed to sit in a semi-circle in class and introduce them selves and tell each other what their interests are....

i think the vikes forgot the first day of class in short.

Del Rio
08-29-2005, 09:16 PM
That's what's funny about sports. A month ago over half of the board wanted to kill Chavous. You had people trying as hard as they could to try and proove the guy is over-rated. He shows up and is doing a very good job, no one talks about him. Williams is in the same boat only he is struggling, he brought it on himself so no one can get upset. If he starts playing a bit better he will slip into that category of taken for granted that a lot of players fall into and he wont be worried about until he does something to stand out.

I understand why he is under more pressure then ever, but I think to get excited over it would be unwise, especially since a lot of people are carrying around baggage from his supposed hold out of voluntary camp. Luckily for the team the coaches know more about it then us. If he gets replaced I guess we will know the answer.

smootpepper
08-29-2005, 09:40 PM
"Del Rio" wrote:

That's what's funny about sports. A month ago over half of the board wanted to kill Chavous. You had people trying as hard as they could to try and proove the guy is over-rated. He shows up and is doing a very good job, no one talks about him. Williams is in the same boat only he is struggling, he brought it on himself so no one can get upset. If he starts playing a bit better he will slip into that category of taken for granted that a lot of players fall into and he wont be worried about until he does something to stand out.

I understand why he is under more pressure then ever, but I think to get excited over it would be unwise, especially since a lot of people are carrying around baggage from his supposed hold out of voluntary camp. Luckily for the team the coaches know more about it then us. If he gets replaced I guess we will know the answer.

Its funny you bring that up about chavous last year being bashed for playing crappy. When they were talking about the viking this AM on kfan, the dude from the vikings also said that last year chavous looked bad becasue williams would get out of place or forget his coverage and chavous would have to try and cover people that he wasnt supposed to. Thats why chavous looked out of place and was always getting to the play late and thats why tice went after another top corner. I think if williams was as good as we think or thought he was, he would still be a starter on our team.

But on the same token, a couple months ago people also wanted DD over chavous. Chavous is a solid safety, but I would take Darius over him.

whackthepack
08-29-2005, 09:41 PM
"PAvikesfan" wrote:

williams has been sucking it up, but ralph brown a better option...nonsense!

our defense really hasn't impressed me much at all yet overall... they look like they don't even know each others' names yet... i think they needed to sit in a semi-circle in class and introduce them selves and tell each other what their interests are....

i think the vikes forgot the first day of class in short.

Sorry, Ralphie boy has played better that B-Will, B-Will has been out of position on way to many plays!

He has cost us at least 2 TD's if not 3!

Del Rio
08-29-2005, 09:52 PM
I think until you have the playbook and know what position he is supposed to be in that there is really nothing to prove it is all on his shoulders.

I think a more accurate statement as far as the Chavous Williams thing is this. People were fast to jump off of the Chavous wagon, making up garbage, talking about how he can't hit how he is always getting burnned. When he shows up to camp, doesn't miss a beat and kills Offord a guy who was supposed to take his place all those people need to save face. Even sport writers, hell especially them. So who do they point blame on now? Williams.

Everyone knows football is a team sport. Everyone knows that is one guy messess up it can hurt the team. Right now you have a defense that is supposed to be very much improved and they are still giving up some serious yards. So who can you blame? Who can be credited with the ENTIRE teams mistakes? How about the one guy who is struggling that was being bashed in the offseason?

To me that screams someone somewhere trying to save face. Someone who talked a whole lot of shit about CC and needs to backpedal. "Oh who? Chavous? CHAVOUS IS DA MAN BRO.....I was mad last year at him but it turns out it was all Brian Williams fault so we are cool." lol

magicci
08-29-2005, 09:54 PM
i think whoever is our dime back will be the best in the league either if it williams/brown/ or irvin. i dont know why all you people hated brown, this year he is gonna really step it up.

smootpepper
08-29-2005, 09:57 PM
Maybe the best way to put this is...


Brian Williams seems to have the tools to make the big play when in position.

Brown Seems to be in position more, but doesnt seem to have all the physicle attributes that williams does. ie big hits, knocking the ball down, etc.

Now if only we could combine the two and make Brian RW Brown. Solid, just plain solid.

smootpepper
08-29-2005, 10:19 PM
Normally I dont get too high on sports reporters and the articles they write or things they say. But when the reports are coming out of the vikings organization from what kfan says are "inside sources" i tend to believe it. They have been pretty trustworthy over the years as long as its not hockey talk.

And to me, if its coming from the vikings it means

1. they have the playbook
2. they do this for a living so they must know something about football
3. back peddling like that and pointing the fingure at another person within the organization is not a good idea.

Maybe kfan is exagerating what was said to them, or maybe they are making up this just so they have something to talk about. I dont know.

But i guess this also brings up the question. Is Winfield as good as we think he is? Since most of the passess last year were aimed at williams, does that mean that

A. Winfield shut his man down?
B. Williams was just that bad and the QB went to the open target?
C. What we're seeing from Winfield now is a result of smoot being on the field and actually shutting down his man?

I know I know, im really stretching here. But its an interesting debate none the less.

With all the new defense we bought in im only expecting a top 15. A good defense but its not going to strike fear into anyone. So far all I have seen is last years D with better run stopping.

Mr. Purple
08-29-2005, 10:24 PM
I tried arguing this couple days ago, defending sharper....and puttin the blame on brian williams. I dont think we should cut the guy tho, dept is needed...and hes better then some corners out there. Chavous and Sharper to me are playin some d@mn good football.

Del Rio
08-29-2005, 10:25 PM
I'll save the debate until they play some games that count. Entire games.

I will say that Winfield has really never been THAT great at pass defense, he makes his money being a sure tackler and a physical defender. He came here and he didn't have to do much to get hailed as the saving grace. Mostly because our secondary was weak.

I hear Smoot is a very good pass defender. I don't think Winfield was ever touted as being one of the best in strictly pass defense but he is a very good tackler something that is almost valued just as much as a deion sander type of shutdown corner.

muchluv4smoot
08-29-2005, 11:05 PM
I don't get where your loyalty to brian williams comes from del? First you try and tell me that he is as good as smoot, because their stats are somewhat comparable and now after he has his 3rd downright horrible game in a row, somehow you just don't seem bothered by it? Well the coaches are and I hear they might be moving Ralph Brown up to nickel back and demoting williams to dime back very soon. They thought about doing it last week and I am sure williams bad play in the last game couldn't have helped him out much.

Ralph Brown has played much better then williams and deserves the shot at nickel back. He has yet to make the mental mistakes that williams seems to make on almost every drive. It's not all about physical tools, or brian williams would be the choice easily, but he just seems to lack the mental part.

Like I have said before, I don't care what his stats are or that it is only preseason, I just don't think, or have never thought, brian williams was a good CB. And each game he plays, he seems to prove that to me even more.

And Williams isn't playing any different then he was last season, so far in preseason. I have said the same thing to people about michael bennett, who like to say it's only preseason. It's not only preseason, if they are continuing to play as bad as they were the previous regular season.

Ralph Brown deserves a shot at nickel back and if williams gets pissed and wants to be cut, then so be it and let kenny irvin play dime back.

smootpepper
08-29-2005, 11:10 PM
"muchluv4smoot" wrote:

I don't get where your loyalty to brian williams comes from del? First you try and tell me that he is as good as smoot, because their stats are somewhat comparable and now after he has his 3rd downright horrible game in a row, somehow you just don't seem bothered by it? Well the coaches are and I hear they might be moving Ralph Brown up to nickel back and demoting williams to dime back very soon. They thought about doing it last week and I am sure williams bad play in the last game couldn't have helped him out much.

Ralph Brown has played much better then williams and deserves the shot at nickel back. He has yet to make the mental mistakes that williams seems to make on almost every drive. It's not all about physical tools, or brian williams would be the choice easily, but he just seems to lack the mental part.

Like I have said before, I don't care what his stats are or that it is only preseason, I just don't think, or have never thought, brian williams was a good CB. And each game he plays, he seems to prove that to me even more.

And Williams isn't playing any different then he was last season, so far in preseason. I have said the same thing to people about michael bennett, who like to say it's only preseason. It's not only preseason, if they are continuing to play as bad as they were the previous regular season.

Ralph Brown deserves a shot at nickel back and if williams gets pissed and wants to be cut, then so be it and let kenny irvin play dime back.

**cough**cough** Galishaw **cough** :smile:

Del Rio
08-29-2005, 11:12 PM
Like I said if they are worried about I guess you will see Ralph Brown in there. It's not something worth losing sleep over. I personally don't think Ralph Brown doing OK in a few pre-season games is enough for me. I'm not making the decisions so that is why I said earlier if the people who know what the hell is going on move him to dime, then I guess I have my answer.

Even if they move him to Dime he will still play plenty considering the cushy D we run. As long as he is on the field causing his two fumbles a year and making the big plays he can I could care less. If Ralph Brown does play and start the season I bet he is replaced by week 3.

Del Rio
08-29-2005, 11:13 PM
If Williams get's cut he won't be waiting long for a roster spot, he may even get to play on a defense that actually tries to put their DB's in position to succeed.

Hell just watching the tape of the first series by the chargers you can see the guy is getting blamed for poor D all around.

10yd pass on Winfield
17yd run by M. Turner
16yd pass on Smoot
26yd pass on Winfield

lol :grin:

If you are going to continually play safties and make them useless by trying zone then you might as well not have them. You got Fat Pat he is supposed to be the cure all for the run D so why not have your safties help on passing plays?

muchluv4smoot
08-30-2005, 12:20 AM
"Del Rio" wrote:

If Williams get's cut he won't be waiting long for a roster spot, he may even get to play on a defense that actually tries to put their DB's in position to succeed.

Hell just watching the tape of the first series by the chargers you can see the guy is getting blamed for poor D all around.

10yd pass on Winfield
17yd run by M. Turner
16yd pass on Smoot
26yd pass on Winfield

lol :grin:

If you are going to continually play safties and make them useless by trying zone then you might as well not have them. You got Fat Pat he is supposed to be the cure all for the run D so why not have your safties help on passing plays?



I don't see williams being blamed for the whole D struggling. He is being blamed for playing very poorly after whining about being demoted this off-season and skipping Mini camp like it wasn't important. Wonder if he thinks mini camp is important now, after he has made mental mistake after mental mistake?

There is one difference in your lists of plays given up by other players and brian williams' bad plays. Williams give up TD's, and the other guys didn't. Williams is always behind the guys he is covering, whereas smoot, and winfield(with the exception of the one against the jets where he was burned bad andlucky they didn't complete it) are always in front of their guys so they can at the very least make the tackle as soon as they catch the ball.

Also comparing winfield to williams this preseason is wrong. Williams is getting crap because he is playing badly in preseason, but also because he played bad last season too, forcing us to spend a ton of money on a starter that deserves to start. If chavous was messing up this preseason, you know people would be all over him right now too, because he is coming off a down year as well. BUT, winfield has played at argueably a pro bowl level for years now, so of course we don't think much of him giving up a few pass plays in preseason, same for smoot(who was absolutely all over mccardell on that one pass), because they are proven.

Winfield and smoot aren't fghting for their job and weren't just demoted. You can tell a lot from a player by seeing how he responds to being demoted. EJ hasn't complained one bit all off-season and has absolutely worked his butt off and in return it has paid off with the starting WLB spot that he has absolutely earned. Williams on the other hands b*tches and moans about losing his job, skips mini camp, and comes into preseason essentialy fighting for his job and has stunk it up in 3 straight games. That tells me a lot about brian williams.

I agree that our safeties haven't been used right, but lets not use that to overlook that williams isn't doing his job. His job is to shut down his receiver, it is the safeties job 2nd to help him out if he can't. It seems williams can't on every play and it is unrealistic to expect the safeties to help our nickel CB on every play.

Del Rio
08-30-2005, 12:24 AM
Well giving up over 100 yards that fast is an idicator of poor defense all around. Even your all star people you love, 26 yards is 26 yards weather it is Smoot or Williams.

The fact that Williams has been th eguy getting beat for the TD doesn't mean much to me since the other guys got their assess handed to them the whole way down the field to get in that position.

If he sucks as bad as you are claiming then he will be replaced plain as that. Coaches will make the call.

V4L
08-30-2005, 12:25 AM
ID take Williams over Brown anyday.. There is no competition I don't think.. Brown has been taking on some scrubs and is doing alright.. Not doing anything special.. Wiliams will be fine everyone! He won't be out there all the time anyway so im not too concerned about it

muchluv4smoot
08-30-2005, 12:28 AM
"smootpepper" wrote:

**cough**cough** Galishaw **cough** :smile:



Sorry, although galishaw has had a fine preseason and looked very good, he is too young to be counted on in the regular season. I think we would be better off with kenny irvin at dime back for at least the beginning of the year. Once we get into the regular season, the mental part of the game would just overwhelm galishaw and I don't think we could count on him. Sure, if he showed he could do it in the regular season, against better players, and not make the mental mistakes when we aren't calling vanilla D plays, then he could be put in there. But we have a good safety valve at CB in kenny irvin, who I would feel very comfortable with playing dime back if needed, over some more young guys, who will probably be making mental mistakes all over the place.

I do like Galishaw though, but think he needs a year of seasoning before he can truely be counted on in the regular season.

smootpepper
08-30-2005, 12:34 AM
"muchluv4smoot" wrote:

"smootpepper" wrote:

**cough**cough** Galishaw **cough** :smile:



Sorry, although galishaw has had a fine preseason and looked very good, he is too young to be counted on in the regular season. I think we would be better off with kenny irvin at dime back for at least the beginning of the year. Once we get into the regular season, the mental part of the game would just overwhelm galishaw and I don't think we could count on him. Sure, if he showed he could do it in the regular season, against better players, and not make the mental mistakes when we aren't calling vanilla D plays, then he could be put in there. But we have a good safety valve at CB in kenny irvin, who I would feel very comfortable with playing dime back if needed, over some more young guys, who will probably be making mental mistakes all over the place.

I do like Galishaw though, but think he needs a year of seasoning before he can truely be counted on in the regular season.

bah, i know, I know.... He commits way too many penalties to be on the field. But he looks like a big time play maker out there. I just really like the way he has played this preseason. :smile:

muchluv4smoot
08-30-2005, 12:35 AM
"Del Rio" wrote:

Well giving up over 100 yards that fast is an idicator of poor defense all around. Even your all star people you love, 26 yards is 26 yards weather it is Smoot or Williams.

The fact that Williams has been th eguy getting beat for the TD doesn't mean much to me since the other guys got their assess handed to them the whole way down the field to get in that position.

If he sucks as bad as you are claiming then he will be replaced plain as that. Coaches will make the call.


It's not as simple as that del. The yards given up to get down there were hard fought yards. Smoot was all over mccardell on the sidelines and the ball was fit perfectly in there for the completion. Winfeld was also all over mccardell on his completion against him. That isn't the same as williams making another stupid mental mistake and giving up a wide open TD catch. How often do you think that wide open pass would be completed, compared to the one on smoot on the sidelines? Has smoot and winfield not proven already that regardless of how they look in the preseason, they play at pro bowl level during the regular season. Sorry, but it is not the same as williams screwing up all the time, because he has done it his whole career.


And your right, the coaches will make the descision. I am just trying to get you to see what I am seeing, and what the coaches are apparently starting to see, that Williams isn't a very good CB.

muchluv4smoot
08-30-2005, 12:41 AM
"smootpepper" wrote:

"muchluv4smoot" wrote:

"smootpepper" wrote:

**cough**cough** Galishaw **cough** :smile:



Sorry, although galishaw has had a fine preseason and looked very good, he is too young to be counted on in the regular season. I think we would be better off with kenny irvin at dime back for at least the beginning of the year. Once we get into the regular season, the mental part of the game would just overwhelm galishaw and I don't think we could count on him. Sure, if he showed he could do it in the regular season, against better players, and not make the mental mistakes when we aren't calling vanilla D plays, then he could be put in there. But we have a good safety valve at CB in kenny irvin, who I would feel very comfortable with playing dime back if needed, over some more young guys, who will probably be making mental mistakes all over the place.

I do like Galishaw though, but think he needs a year of seasoning before he can truely be counted on in the regular season.

bah, i know, I know.... He commits way too many penalties to be on the field. But he looks like a big time play maker out there. I just really like the way he has played this preseason. :smile:


Yeah, galishaw has looked good. I hope at the very least we can sneak him onto our practice squad and maybe even give him a roster spot as the 5th or 6th CB. He has done enough in preseason, to worry me if we try and drop him to our practice squad, he might get picked up by another team.

smootpepper
08-30-2005, 12:44 AM
i think yards and touchdowns make a big difference. Look at the bears D. They had overall a bad D if you look at the yards they gave up last year (ranked 20th). But you look at the points they gave up and it was I think tied for 5th lowest in the league last year. That kept them in a lot of games and won most of there games for them.

Del Rio
08-30-2005, 01:12 AM
"muchluv4smoot" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

Well giving up over 100 yards that fast is an idicator of poor defense all around. Even your all star people you love, 26 yards is 26 yards weather it is Smoot or Williams.

The fact that Williams has been th eguy getting beat for the TD doesn't mean much to me since the other guys got their assess handed to them the whole way down the field to get in that position.

If he sucks as bad as you are claiming then he will be replaced plain as that. Coaches will make the call.


It's not as simple as that del. The yards given up to get down there were hard fought yards. Smoot was all over mccardell on the sidelines and the ball was fit perfectly in there for the completion. Winfeld was also all over mccardell on his completion against him. That isn't the same as williams making another stupid mental mistake and giving up a wide open TD catch. How often do you think that wide open pass would be completed, compared to the one on smoot on the sidelines? Has smoot and winfield not proven already that regardless of how they look in the preseason, they play at pro bowl level during the regular season. Sorry, but it is not the same as williams screwing up all the time, because he has done it his whole career.


And your right, the coaches will make the descision. I am just trying to get you to see what I am seeing, and what the coaches are apparently starting to see, that Williams isn't a very good CB.

He may very well be the worst on the team, especially if his work ethic has gone down hill since he is peeved. I'm not impressed by any of them at this point. They are all riding on hype. I have seen Williams fight hard many times as well. To me the end result is all that matters. I could care less if Smoot tried really really hard but still got his azz handed to him. I want to see results. If the whole team is letting an offense get into rythm then I am reluctant to point the finger of blame at one player.

muchluv4smoot
08-30-2005, 01:29 AM
"Del Rio" wrote:

"muchluv4smoot" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

Well giving up over 100 yards that fast is an idicator of poor defense all around. Even your all star people you love, 26 yards is 26 yards weather it is Smoot or Williams.

The fact that Williams has been th eguy getting beat for the TD doesn't mean much to me since the other guys got their assess handed to them the whole way down the field to get in that position.

If he sucks as bad as you are claiming then he will be replaced plain as that. Coaches will make the call.


It's not as simple as that del. The yards given up to get down there were hard fought yards. Smoot was all over mccardell on the sidelines and the ball was fit perfectly in there for the completion. Winfeld was also all over mccardell on his completion against him. That isn't the same as williams making another stupid mental mistake and giving up a wide open TD catch. How often do you think that wide open pass would be completed, compared to the one on smoot on the sidelines? Has smoot and winfield not proven already that regardless of how they look in the preseason, they play at pro bowl level during the regular season. Sorry, but it is not the same as williams screwing up all the time, because he has done it his whole career.


And your right, the coaches will make the descision. I am just trying to get you to see what I am seeing, and what the coaches are apparently starting to see, that Williams isn't a very good CB.

He may very well be the worst on the team, especially if his work ethic has gone down hill since he is peeved. I'm not impressed by any of them at this point. They are all riding on hype. I have seen Williams fight hard many times as well. To me the end result is all that matters. I could care less if Smoot tried really really hard but still got his azz handed to him. I want to see results. If the whole team is letting an offense get into rythm then I am reluctant to point the finger of blame at one player.


But your pointing to one drive del. There have been other drives where our other players have stopped them, only to have williams mess up and give up a big play or TD. That's my point. You just aren't gonna be able to complete that 26 yard sideline pass on smoot very often because it had to be thrown in the perfect spot and smoot was all over the guy. However, williams always messes up so bad, that even I could hit the receivers he is covering for TD's.

I'll take a CB that gives up an occasionaly big play, but is all over the guy, over a CB that mentally doesn't get it and gives up wide open plays and TD's all the time.

midgensa
08-30-2005, 01:30 AM
This has been an interesting debate since the signing of Smoot. I really think that our defense looks just fine and is starting to get on the same page. Sure the Chargers handed us our ass, but that happens to the best defenses sometimes, and we are not the best, just good.
I think Williams is hands down the best No. 3 corner in the league and could compete with Smoot in some aspects. Overall, Smoot tackles a little better I think and both take uneccesary risks at times.
Williams does seem a little peeved still that he is not on the field at the start of the game and I think it has shown a little in his play thus far.
When it gets down to it, these guys will want to win, and I think this trio will be quuite a valuable asset.

GQVikesfan
08-30-2005, 02:01 AM
The Jets Defense got a whole lot better once Ted Cottrell left.. I guess what I'm trying to say is get rid of Cottrell!

Del Rio
08-30-2005, 03:53 AM
I won't admit Williams is worse then Smoot until Smoot does something worth mentioning in the Vikings uniform that's pretty much all there is to it, so far he hasn't had the time to prove himself, but he will.

I am even more reluctant to say Brown is better then Williams. I will say this the proof is in the pudding and we are about to have the real stuff here soon.

One good thing about actually sticking to your guns is people know where you stand. So if shit happens to hit the fan then I will expect to get reamed and I will embrace that, but you aren't going to try a pull that shit during the pre-season.

Consistency is respectable IMO just like Whack he makes a thread dissing on Hovan's one tackle and his last game he did pretty damn good. You wont hear about that though :grin:

Mossville
08-30-2005, 06:05 AM
"Del Rio" wrote:

The only play ever in question was the TD that Sharper was in the area as well.

Winfield just plain sucked that game he got beat many times, just like he did against the chargers. He hasn't given up any TD's but he has been giving up yards hand over fist.

I don't care but to be crying over two pre-season games is premature, just like Winfield getting burned repeatedly I expect they will tighten up when the season begins, I'm sorry Brown is not better the Williams.

I'm sorry Brian Williams sucks. He got torched all last year and he will get torched all this year. The only thing he has done worth a shit was undercut Keyshawn but he still made the catch and still got up and talked shit back to williams because he sucks

midgensa
08-30-2005, 06:19 AM
"Mossville" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

The only play ever in question was the TD that Sharper was in the area as well.

Winfield just plain sucked that game he got beat many times, just like he did against the chargers. He hasn't given up any TD's but he has been giving up yards hand over fist.

I don't care but to be crying over two pre-season games is premature, just like Winfield getting burned repeatedly I expect they will tighten up when the season begins, I'm sorry Brown is not better the Williams.

I'm sorry Brian Williams sucks. He got torched all last year and he will get torched all this year. The only thing he has done worth a pooh was undercut Keyshawn but he still made the catch and still got up and talked pooh back to williams because he sucks

Boy you really backed up your case ...
Hell, people like you make me want to ditch Smoot for Williams just because people like Del Rio like Williams and people like you don't ...
Williams is consistent and made some very good plays covering for our inept LBs last year (which everyone in their right mind knows was our real weakness). To call him crap is simply incorrect, to say he is not as good as Smoot is a fair argument.

Webby
08-30-2005, 06:42 AM
"GQVikesfan" wrote:

The Jets Defense got a whole lot better once Ted Cottrell left.. I guess what I'm trying to say is get rid of Cottrell!

Ding Ding Ding!

LuckyVike
08-30-2005, 06:44 AM
"Mossville" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

The only play ever in question was the TD that Sharper was in the area as well.

Winfield just plain sucked that game he got beat many times, just like he did against the chargers. He hasn't given up any TD's but he has been giving up yards hand over fist.

I don't care but to be crying over two pre-season games is premature, just like Winfield getting burned repeatedly I expect they will tighten up when the season begins, I'm sorry Brown is not better the Williams.

I'm sorry Brian Williams sucks. He got torched all last year and he will get torched all this year. The only thing he has done worth a pooh was undercut Keyshawn but he still made the catch and still got up and talked pooh back to williams because he sucks

Check out the replays, Johnson didn't make that catch or talk any smack. Have a nice day.

canadian_vikes_fan
08-30-2005, 07:00 AM
"midgensa" wrote:

"Mossville" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

The only play ever in question was the TD that Sharper was in the area as well.

Winfield just plain sucked that game he got beat many times, just like he did against the chargers. He hasn't given up any TD's but he has been giving up yards hand over fist.

I don't care but to be crying over two pre-season games is premature, just like Winfield getting burned repeatedly I expect they will tighten up when the season begins, I'm sorry Brown is not better the Williams.

I'm sorry Brian Williams sucks. He got torched all last year and he will get torched all this year. The only thing he has done worth a pooh was undercut Keyshawn but he still made the catch and still got up and talked pooh back to williams because he sucks

Boy you really backed up your case ...
Hell, people like you make me want to ditch Smoot for Williams just because people like Del Rio like Williams and people like you don't ...
Williams is consistent and made some very good plays covering for our inept LBs last year (which everyone in their right mind knows was our real weakness). To call him crap is simply incorrect, to say he is not as good as Smoot is a fair argument.

Well I agree with you about Williams - all this crap he's getting is not deserved. He is a pretty good player and would probably start on a lot of teams. He hasn't played well so far, but it's PRESEASON!! I realize you people are bored and have nothing else to talk about, but give these people a break!

But I disagree with you about ditching Smoot for Williams (I assume you were being sarcastic). Smoot was brought in to shore up this defense and he will improve it drastically. I think there is no doubt that Smoot is better than Williams. And that also means that Williams is better than Ralph Brown at nickel back which makes our defense that much better.

i_bleed_purple
08-30-2005, 08:12 AM
"Mossville" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

The only play ever in question was the TD that Sharper was in the area as well.

Winfield just plain sucked that game he got beat many times, just like he did against the chargers. He hasn't given up any TD's but he has been giving up yards hand over fist.

I don't care but to be crying over two pre-season games is premature, just like Winfield getting burned repeatedly I expect they will tighten up when the season begins, I'm sorry Brown is not better the Williams.

I'm sorry Brian Williams sucks. He got torched all last year and he will get torched all this year. The only thing he has done worth a pooh was undercut Keyshawn but he still made the catch and still got up and talked pooh back to williams because he sucks

keyshawn didn't make the catch or talk any smack he just got his @$$ handed to him.

I would take williams over brown. Brown may be able to cover a bit better but he lacks in the physical department (ie. tackling, knock-downs) Had williams gone to minicamp he may be more mentally focused, mabye not who knows. I would like to see williams stay with the vikings a few years as he is relatively young still and if he gets the mental aspect down he could be a good corner

Del Rio
08-30-2005, 03:20 PM
"Mossville" wrote:

"Del Rio" wrote:

The only play ever in question was the TD that Sharper was in the area as well.

Winfield just plain sucked that game he got beat many times, just like he did against the chargers. He hasn't given up any TD's but he has been giving up yards hand over fist.

I don't care but to be crying over two pre-season games is premature, just like Winfield getting burned repeatedly I expect they will tighten up when the season begins, I'm sorry Brown is not better the Williams.

I'm sorry Brian Williams sucks. He got torched all last year and he will get torched all this year. The only thing he has done worth a pooh was undercut Keyshawn but he still made the catch and still got up and talked pooh back to williams because he sucks

That's pretty much the type of bullshit that started this entire argument many moons ago. Der He sucks, I don't know why, I can't show you, I can't even describe one play accurately, but hell I have to blame someone so he sucks.

brandsp
08-30-2005, 04:29 PM
Anyone dissing Winfield must remember one big thing. The main reason we brought him here was to shore up the run D. Doesn't everyone remember teams running to the outside for 10-20 yd gains over and over against our D? Our corners tackled like Deion Sanders. Winfield has done a Pro Bowl job in run support. Winfield is a good cover corner and does a darn good job, but isn't a Pro Bowler in coverage. But overall, not many are better overall. But now that we have Smoot to D up the best WR on the field Winfield should be even better this year.

Del Rio
08-30-2005, 04:32 PM
I think now that we seem to have a couple linebackers who can tackle he wont have as many tackles. That is a good thing though. We all know he can.