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Pigskin Bigs
05-06-2005, 03:11 PM
I saw the stats on ESPN showing how Culpepper's numbers in his first 6 years blows away Fran Tarkenton's numbers. It was pretty amazing. I don't think there is any question that Pep is our best QB ever. He has the running ability and the big arm to go along with those numbers. His fumbling always bothered me and so did some of his decision making, but that stuff seems to be things of the past. We have a great QB and he is improving each year. If he keeps the fumbling down, his numbers may be the best in the NFL the next few years. Manning and Culpepper will be the highest rated QB's for years to come.

purplegang
05-06-2005, 03:17 PM
as of right now , i think fran is the man when it comes to being the best viking qb, but with that said culpepper has the ability to take that away , he needs a little more time ,and age on him,

renovikesfan
05-06-2005, 03:34 PM
Since 2000, Daunte has led the Vikings to one NFC Championship with 3 years of having, arguably, one of the top 3 WR tandems in NFL history (Moss and Carter), and 5 years with Moss.

Fran led the Vikings to multiple SuperBowls with adequate to above-average receivers.

Let Pep at least lead us to ONE Championship before we start trying to call him better than Sir Francis.

Prophet
05-06-2005, 05:03 PM
I'm a big Culpepper fan, but would not put him above Tarkenton yet. He will probably surpass him (I hope) by winning the big dance soon.

Either way, I'm too much of a Vikes fan to put the legends in some sort of hierarchical rating scheme. I definitely would put Culpepper right up there with Tarkenton as far as my favorite players from the Vikes franchise historic list.

biggame
05-06-2005, 05:03 PM
I don't care about numbers, Tommy Kramer is the best ever!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Paulbedy59
05-06-2005, 05:08 PM
No way! Culpepper is very good and the verdict in the end has yet to be determined.But when Fran came into the leauge,Minn was a true expansion team.Hardly any talent and a baker on the offensive line.Not to mention the rule changes now are so much in favor of the passing game (db,s not allowed to give recievers dirty looks) that the statistics are wacky.I mean look at the hall of fame rankings and just about anybody playing today who is worth anything is better than Fran,Johnny U,Staghback,or anyone.Cannot go by the stats..

NordicNed
05-06-2005, 06:46 PM
Why to early to put Culp., before Fran yet.....


Let's face it, Fran was the man on many a stats that QB's work for...Then Marino passed by him on many if not most.

But Fran is still #2 on many of those today, When Culp,. leads us into a Super Bowl, then I will start talking about this subject somemore...

gr8vike
05-06-2005, 07:18 PM
Fran Tarkenton is by far the best vikings qb ever

cajunvike
05-06-2005, 07:26 PM
"renovikesfan" wrote:

Since 2000, Daunte has led the Vikings to one NFC Championship with 3 years of having, arguably, one of the top 3 WR tandems in NFL history (Moss and Carter), and 5 years with Moss.

Fran led the Vikings to multiple SuperBowls with adequate to above-average receivers.

Let Pep at least lead us to ONE Championship before we start trying to call him better than Sir Francis.

True that...Fran was this little runt who NOBODY except the Vikings thought would make it in the NFL...he ended up redefining the position in many respects...Fran is still THE MAN!!!

One day, the same will be said about Pep...he will redefine the position as well...and add some Super Bowl titles to the Viking organization as well...only then will he be considered better than Fran!!!

ultravikingfan
05-06-2005, 09:33 PM
Fran hands down.

As far as stats, the game is a lot different now compared to then.

sureban
05-06-2005, 10:11 PM
Obviously I think Culpepper is the best, but I never saw Tarkenton play. I think we should wait until Daunte's career is over before we compare him to anybody else.

Sincerely,
Mark.

fred3105
05-06-2005, 10:36 PM
Lets see how a little more of Culpepper without Moss to see how good he really is. Then we can compare.

Ltrey33
05-06-2005, 10:54 PM
"fred3105" wrote:

Lets see how a little more of Culpepper without Moss to see how good he really is. Then we can compare.

A good QB is a good QB regardless of who he has around him. Watch, Kerry Collins will have Moss and Porter this year, and will still suck. Culepepper didn't have moss for half of the season last year and still put up huge #'s. I know it's not always as easy without superstar recievers, but he'll still be good.

MountainVike
05-06-2005, 11:47 PM
It's so hard to compare players from different eras. The rules and styles of play change from decade to decade. My thought is that the only fair way to compare players is to measure them against other QBs of their era. I'll skip the mediocre guys and cover some of the guys who've had big years for the Vikes.

Fran Tarkenton was clearly a difference-maker (he made plays that no one else would even consider making) and one of the best 3-4 QBs in the league for a long time.

Joe Kapp was a gritty winner, but not a difference-maker or very effective QB.

Tommy Kramer played at a Pro Bowl level for a year or two...but that's all.

Brad Johnson and Jeff George each had one very good year with the Vikings.

Randall Cunningham had arguably the best single year ever by a Viking QB in relief of Brad Johnson in 1998. However, he flamed out quickly the next year.

Daunte Culpepper has mixed spectacular years with mediocre years. His first year as a starter was incredible. Last year, he was the 2nd best QB in football. In between, he was little better than an average QB.

For now, I've got to go with Tarkenton. No other Viking QB has ever put together more than a couple of great years. With another 3-4 years of consistently good play, Culpepper could take away that title, but for now...Fran's the Man!

fred3105
05-07-2005, 12:13 AM
"ltrey33" wrote:

"fred3105" wrote:

Lets see how a little more of Culpepper without Moss to see how good he really is. Then we can compare.

A good QB is a good QB regardless of who he has around him. Watch, Kerry Collins will have Moss and Porter this year, and will still suck. Culepepper didn't have moss for half of the season last year and still put up huge #'s. I know it's not always as easy without superstar recievers, but he'll still be good.

You must have missed the Gus Ferrot(sp) games 2 years ago.

E-Man
05-07-2005, 01:32 AM
"MountainVike" wrote:

It's so hard to compare players from different eras.
...For now, I've got to go with Tarkenton. No other Viking QB has ever put together more than a couple of great years. With another 3-4 years of consistently good play, Culpepper could take away that title, but for now...Fran's the Man!

Good answer bro. The truth is that we need a few more great 'Pepper years. I believe he will be called the best by then. He needs to rollout and sprint more, open the field up and we now have the O-line to help do it. Having Klieny back is really going to motor this ability and the run game this yr.

ItalianStallion
05-07-2005, 01:49 AM
"renovikesfan" wrote:

Since 2000, Daunte has led the Vikings to one NFC Championship with 3 years of having, arguably, one of the top 3 WR tandems in NFL history (Moss and Carter), and 5 years with Moss.

Fran led the Vikings to multiple SuperBowls with adequate to above-average receivers.

Let Pep at least lead us to ONE Championship before we start trying to call him better than Sir Francis.

Lets not forget that having good receivers is not the best way to get to the superbowl. Fran had some great defenses, Culpepper has NEVER had a top 20 defense.

slinkey
05-07-2005, 03:19 AM
NO WAY! Here are some Vike qb's that were better...

1 Fran Tarkenton
2 Tommy Krammer
3 Joe Kapp
4 Wade Wilson
5 Jeff George (I know, you guys dont like him but he was great for the short time he was here)

ultravikingfan
05-07-2005, 03:21 AM
"slinkey" wrote:

NO WAY! Here are some Vike qb's that were better...

1 Fran Tarkenton
2 Tommy Krammer
3 Joe Kapp
4 Wade Wilson
5 Jeff George (I know, you guys dont like him but he was great for the short time he was here)

Wilson! :roll:

renovikesfan
05-07-2005, 03:35 AM
"ItalianStallion" wrote:

Lets not forget that having good receivers is not the best way to get to the superbowl. Fran had some great defenses, Culpepper has NEVER had a top 20 defense.

No denying that.

I'm not saying Pep has no chance at ever being better than Fran...I'm just saying we should give him a little more time to prove himself as being better. This year will be the year for him to do just that. He no longer has his All-Pro WRs to throw to, but the Defense has a chance to be better than any we've had in a long time...PPE-quality? Doubtful...but we could be seeing a resurrection of the Millard/Studwell/Doleman era, and that would be a major boost to ANY QB of Culpepper's quality.

VikingMike
05-07-2005, 04:37 AM
Whoever leads us to a victorious Super Bowl will be the greatest Viking QB ever, period. :wink:

akvikefan89
05-07-2005, 04:39 AM
"slinkey" wrote:

NO WAY! Here are some Vike qb's that were better...

1 Fran Tarkenton
2 Tommy Krammer
3 Joe Kapp
4 Wade Wilson
5 Jeff George (I know, you guys dont like him but he was great for the short time he was here)
No way that "George the joke" was better than Peppy!

LuckyVike
05-07-2005, 05:54 AM
"fred3105" wrote:

"ltrey33" wrote:

"fred3105" wrote:

Lets see how a little more of Culpepper without Moss to see how good he really is. Then we can compare.

A good QB is a good QB regardless of who he has around him. Watch, Kerry Collins will have Moss and Porter this year, and will still suck. Culepepper didn't have moss for half of the season last year and still put up huge #'s. I know it's not always as easy without superstar recievers, but he'll still be good.

You must have missed the Gus Ferrot(sp) games 2 years ago.

Great point LTREY. When Gus came in, the team was firing on all cylinders, not to mention, Gus is a hell of a QB IMO, if not for him headbutting the wall after scoring a TD, he could've probably retained a starting position somewhere.

biggame
05-07-2005, 02:01 PM
I think daunte's size, strength, and athleticism make him a good QB, but not the best in Viking history. Daunte still has some trouble reading defenses and getting rid of the ball, and isn't as accurate as he should be on short passes (mainly passes to the flat). Daunte throws a very nice deep ball, and is generally very good with all the throws inside the hash marks.

I think a lot of Culpepper's success can be credited to having good or great players around him. The offensine line has been very good from the time he came in, Moss, Carter, and several others at WR. Daunte is good, but I think his numbers will be down somewhat this season. Not because Moss is gone, but more because I think the Vikings will actually try to run the ball more. If they do that the defense isn't on the field as long and will likely see more success.

XTAP59
05-07-2005, 06:30 PM
Sir Francis Tarkenton is the best.
Keep in mind how the game has changed from a run up the middle style offense in Frans day to an all out pass happy offense of today. Also take into consideration the rules changes allowing the receivers to run free without worry of getting mauled......
And, Culpepper has had two of the best receivers in the history of the NFL (Carter, Moss) to throw to making his job a lot easier than Tarkentons.

Saying this, if you put Culpepper back in the day of Tarkenton, Culpepper would excel, maybe more so than today. After all, he would be the biggest player on the field and one of the fastest.

ultravikingfan
05-07-2005, 06:33 PM
Pep could have been a Defensive Tackle back then.

Euphman06
05-08-2005, 06:17 AM
If he gets a SB ring, then yes.. no doubt in my mind

coreyd
05-08-2005, 07:50 AM
There is no doubt that Fran and Pep are among the top that have played for our team, but my arguement between the two is:

1)Who had more around them?

2)Look at the changes in the rule book......

Not taking anything away from Pep, but he has it a lot easier than those who are legends of the game.

JLDII
05-09-2005, 06:24 AM
When Tark played, QB's were still regular players. They took their knocks along with everyone else. Todays QB's are nowhere near the "players". As it is today, if a D lineman even looks at a QB with a mean look he gets a flag!!

Another thing nobody else has mentioned either, Tark called most, if not all of his own plays. Sometimes he even drew the plays out in the mud in the huddle. Payton is the only QB playing today that comes even close to that play calling ability.

I would love to have Sir Francis be our offensive coordinator with Culpepper under center though. Talk about an arial circus!! That would be the best passing game ever seen in this league.

purplepat
05-09-2005, 05:32 PM
"Paulbedy59" wrote:

No way! Culpepper is very good and the verdict in the end has yet to be determined.But when Fran came into the leauge,Minn was a true expansion team.Hardly any talent and a baker on the offensive line.Not to mention the rule changes now are so much in favor of the passing game (db,s not allowed to give recievers dirty looks) that the statistics are wacky.I mean look at the hall of fame rankings and just about anybody playing today who is worth anything is better than Fran,Johnny U,Staghback,or anyone.Cannot go by the stats..

This guy took the words right out of my mouth. Culpepper had Carter and Moss, and other great offensive weapons. Fran was on an expansion team. The rules were very different in regards to defensive back play, and for that matter, defensive and offensive line play as well. Plus, the game was much more run-oriented. It's really an apples and oranges comparison. Don't forget, especially in later years, Fran would have been doing all the play-calling as well. For whatever reason, QBs generally just don't do that any more.

I think Culpepper is great, personally. He may one day pass Fran in my mind as the greatest Vikings QB ever. But until he reaches his first Super Bowl, he won't be there in my mind.

6-KINGS
05-09-2005, 07:41 PM
Here are THE 6-KINGS

1)Tarkenton
2)Kapp
3)Cullpepper
4)Kramer
5)Cunningham
6)Moon

I think Cullpepper is a mix of the other 5.
Great playmaker-Tarkenton(Tark also had the legs and huge stats)
Total Guts-Kapp
The Bomb thrower-Kramer
The legs-Cunningham
The huge stats-Moon

If Daunte stays healthy and a Viking(we know how this goes)
He could smash all Viking records.
That is an "if"
But man he has the potential to do it all.

6-KINGS

Del Rio
05-09-2005, 07:45 PM
Back in the Fran days teams were built to run. Now it is the opposite. Even the rules promote the pass. Statistics from the past cannot be compared.

VKG4LFE
05-09-2005, 07:52 PM
They both rule, they played for the VIKES!!

6-KINGS
05-09-2005, 07:55 PM
I totally agree.
Which makes Fran even more of THE MAN!
To do what he did in a "run the ball enviorment"
Play just 12-14 games.
Man that is a HUGE accomplishment.
Look how long so many of his records stood.

I can remember the first time Fran threw over 50 passes and won.
It had never been done before.
The headline read "Tarkenton 1, computer zero."
That was back when computers were just taking off.
And a computer predicted you could never win throwing that many times.


Man Fran was awesome.......

6_kings

Del Rio
05-09-2005, 08:05 PM
I think football in general was better back then. I am not old enough to remember much but when you see a game, read a book about it, it just seems that the game was still what it was a battle of heart, guts, and intelligence. Now Money seems to be sharing the stage and the game is evolving away from it's roots.

I would never try to compare players from that far of a gap. Hell look at life back in the day, depressions, world wars with drafts, I mean just life in general was harder. I think these guys put on the pads just to get away from reality. Athletes these days feel they are the center of the universe and the dictate reality.

michaelmazid
05-09-2005, 08:26 PM
If Daunte has a couple of more years like last year, he will be the best viking QB ever

6-KINGS
05-09-2005, 08:26 PM
Amen Del Rio!

It had a different feel on Sundays.
Football had a tradition you could almost taste.
The smoke hanging over the field from all the smokers in the stands.
Hell I remember watching the Vikes in B/W.
Or if the Vikes weren't on maybe I could pick them up on the radio, AM of course.
Some faint voice crackeling, then you would hear "Ed Marinaro on the carry" or "Bruiser Brown picks up 4 yards"
The games of 9-6 or 13-10 were common.
And every drive was blood and guts.
And it felt like you were in the trenches right there, and they could hear you pulling for them.

And when the game was over, a star would say "what a tough game, I am glad we don't have to play them again" "not sure we coild beat them again" and mean it.

Anyway enough of my GERITOL moment.............

I miss those days......

VikingMike
05-09-2005, 11:36 PM
"6-KINGS" wrote:

The games of 9-6 or 13-10 were common.
And every drive was blood and guts.
And it felt like you were in the trenches right there, and they could hear you pulling for them.

I remember some games with the Rams (or the hated Cowgirls) with 10-9 or 13-10 scores...hard fought battles. I used to hate Roman Gabriel - the refs never called him for intentional grounding (oh, if they only had "in the grasp" back then)! :grin:

Of course, I also remember the 27-10 playoff victory over the Cowgirls where we ran misdirections all day long and had their defense in fits. :lol:

Paulbedy59
05-10-2005, 12:01 AM
Right on Del Rio,Back in the day you could mug those recievers going out for passes,you could tear a QBs head off.The defensive line could head slap and have a good-old time.And I think you had something like 4 seconds to cream a QB after the ball was gone.I remember a game against the lions when fran had his fronmt teeth knocked out and bit thru his lip.He went in got his lip sewed up and came back out and led the vikes to victory... Fran was and still is THE MAN!!

PurplePeopleEaters
05-10-2005, 12:34 AM
If he wins a super bowl... he is...

DaunteHOF
05-10-2005, 04:09 AM
I'm a Daunte fan so ofcourse I think he's the best numbers wise and intangelbles wise but this is his defining year, expecting big things...

ultravikingfan
05-10-2005, 05:58 AM
"Del Rio" wrote:

I think football in general was better back then. I am not old enough to remember much but when you see a game, read a book about it, it just seems that the game was still what it was a battle of heart, guts, and intelligence. Now Money seems to be sharing the stage and the game is evolving away from it's roots.

Amen! I love watching the old games and learning about the history of the NFL. Back then the players were not such pansies. "Oh, I have a hangnail, thats 4-6 weeks right". Look what Larry Wilson did with 2 broken hands!

jglenn80
05-10-2005, 07:48 PM
This season will determine how the Vikings and Culpepper will be judged after trading Moss. When (not if) Culpepper has another 39 or 40 plus touchdown year, he should be labeled as the league's best QB.