PDA

View Full Version : NFL pundits debate: Carr or Bridgewater the best young NFL quarterback?



Leafman
10-21-2015, 02:38 PM
Of all NFL QBS under 25, these guys like Carr and Teddy as the best of the bunch ... 4 vote Carr, 2 vote Teddy.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000561335/article/derek-carr-teddy-bridgewater-among-top-quarterbacks-25-or-younger

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

rockymtdan
10-21-2015, 05:26 PM
Carr looks a couple years ahead of Teddy in what I have seen of him this year.

midgensa
10-22-2015, 11:47 AM
Bortles is better than both of them. Carr is probably better than Bridgewater at this point. He throws with more zip and is more decisive. Though Crabtree and Cooper are definitely better wideouts than Wallace/Wright/Diggs/Johnson.

Of ALL QBs under 25
I would rank them: 1. Bortles; 2. Mariota; 3. Winston; 4. Carr; 5. Manziel; 6. Bridgewater

tarkenton10
10-22-2015, 12:07 PM
Bortles is better than both of them. Carr is probably better than Bridgewater at this point. He throws with more zip and is more decisive. Though Crabtree and Cooper are definitely better wideouts than Wallace/Wright/Diggs/Johnson.

Of ALL QBs under 25
I would rank them: 1. Bortles; 2. Mariota; 3. Winston; 4. Carr; 5. Manziel; 6. Bridgewater

I really wanted Bortles but he was drafted way too high. I think Carr is better than TB and maybe Mariota but it is too early for that debate. I think he is better than Winston and Manziel but that isn't saying much.

midgensa
10-23-2015, 03:35 PM
I really wanted Bortles but he was drafted way too high. I think Carr is better than TB and maybe Mariota but it is too early for that debate. I think he is better than Winston and Manziel but that isn't saying much.

Actually ... after reviewing his numbers and watching a little more of him ... Winston is a total stud. He is not scared of anything ... and that is huge at this level. By the end of it (unless the Bucs just suck forever, which is possible considering they are the Bucs) he will be No. 1 on this list.

Winston throws downfield VERY well and is already learning the speed of the game at this level. Once he adjust to that, his INTs will go way down. He is already on pace for 23 TDs in his rookie season. Which could end up more than Bridgewater's rookie and second season COMBINED.

It is easy to not like Winston, just something about him, but he is ridiculously talented and smart on the football field. He may turn it over a little more than he should throughout his career, but so does Andrew Luck. Winston is going to be legit.

Blake Bortles is going to throw 30 damn TDs in his second season. In another thread someone mentioned Bridgewater running scared because of our line ... Bortles' line sucks just as bad and the guy is a monster. The Jags could be pretty could here in the next couple of seasons. And Bortles can rip it deep.

After looking at some numbers and thinking I would rank the below 25's like this:
1. Jameis Winston (By far the most potential. Could be a regular Pro Bowler at some point).
2. Blake Bortles (Another who could be a regular Pro Bowler. Can flat rip it with his arm. Becoming a solid decision maker).
3. Marcus Mariota (His legs matter a lot. He is not a runner, but needs them. Could be a problem. But a VERY good decision maker and has a better arm than most think. Could play in a Pro Bowl here or there).
4. Derek Carr (A very quick and decisive thrower. Could make a Pro Bowl here or there. Could become a star with Amari Cooper and a focused Michael Crabtree over the next four years).
5. Teddy Bridgewater and Johnny Manziel (Manziel has more upside because of his beg play ability. Bridgewater is a better decision maker who is extremely good at taking what the defense gives him underneath. Both could be longterm NFL starters, but might not be serious difference makers).

That is where I am on those guys. Bottom line, if the Bucs called and offered Winston for Bridgewater straight up, the Vikings would do it. No doubt about it.

PurplePowerPunch
10-24-2015, 03:07 AM
Carr. Only because he has better mechanics and an arm than TB.

Leafman
10-25-2015, 04:24 PM
25/35, 316, 2 TD, 0 INT, 9.0 YPA. Pretty damn impressive given our sieve of an OLINE gave him no time. I'll take Teddy over Carr ... both of them will be great QBs.

And look at all the contributions from young players ... Diggs, Kendricks, Barr, Bridgewater, Wright, McKinnon ... Spielman has put together a helluva talented young team.

Fix the Offensive Line, or at least get it healthy, and this team is among the league elite.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

12purplepride28
10-25-2015, 05:58 PM
25/35, 316, 2 TD, 0 INT, 9.0 YPA. Pretty damn impressive given our sieve of an OLINE gave him no time. I'll take Teddy over Carr ... both of them will be great QBs.

And look at all the contributions from young players ... Diggs, Kendricks, Barr, Bridgewater, Wright, McKinnon ... Spielman has put together a helluva talented young team.

Fix the Offensive Line, or at least get it healthy, and this team is among the league elite.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

I agree. Both are very promising, but I think Teddy's grasp on the mental part of the game is insane. I'll take Teddy over most QBs in the league at this point.

BBQ Platypus
10-25-2015, 06:21 PM
He could also use a big red zone target who can use his length and size to go up and grab contested balls. As good as Diggs looks like he's gonna be, he's 5'11". His game is more speed and route-running.

tarkenton10
10-26-2015, 01:06 PM
Actually ... after reviewing his numbers and watching a little more of him ... Winston is a total stud. He is not scared of anything ... and that is huge at this level. By the end of it (unless the Bucs just suck forever, which is possible considering they are the Bucs) he will be No. 1 on this list.

Winston throws downfield VERY well and is already learning the speed of the game at this level. Once he adjust to that, his INTs will go way down. He is already on pace for 23 TDs in his rookie season. Which could end up more than Bridgewater's rookie and second season COMBINED.

It is easy to not like Winston, just something about him, but he is ridiculously talented and smart on the football field. He may turn it over a little more than he should throughout his career, but so does Andrew Luck. Winston is going to be legit.

Blake Bortles is going to throw 30 damn TDs in his second season. In another thread someone mentioned Bridgewater running scared because of our line ... Bortles' line sucks just as bad and the guy is a monster. The Jags could be pretty could here in the next couple of seasons. And Bortles can rip it deep.

After looking at some numbers and thinking I would rank the below 25's like this:
1. Jameis Winston (By far the most potential. Could be a regular Pro Bowler at some point).
2. Blake Bortles (Another who could be a regular Pro Bowler. Can flat rip it with his arm. Becoming a solid decision maker).
3. Marcus Mariota (His legs matter a lot. He is not a runner, but needs them. Could be a problem. But a VERY good decision maker and has a better arm than most think. Could play in a Pro Bowl here or there).
4. Derek Carr (A very quick and decisive thrower. Could make a Pro Bowl here or there. Could become a star with Amari Cooper and a focused Michael Crabtree over the next four years).
5. Teddy Bridgewater and Johnny Manziel (Manziel has more upside because of his beg play ability. Bridgewater is a better decision maker who is extremely good at taking what the defense gives him underneath. Both could be longterm NFL starters, but might not be serious difference makers).

That is where I am on those guys. Bottom line, if the Bucs called and offered Winston for Bridgewater straight up, the Vikings would do it. No doubt about it.

No one is really going to know how this plays out for about three to four years. Right now the way they all look i would take in descending order.

IMHO

Bortles
Carr
Bridgewater
Mariota
Winston

purplehelmut
10-26-2015, 03:00 PM
I realize that the story won't be known for a few more seasons, but through week 7 QBRs are:
Bridgewater 64.00 (9th in NFL)
Bortles 61.4
Carr 60.2
Winston 48.5
Mariota 42.00
Manziel Not applicable (where I predict he will remain)

Teddy is doing just fine compared to those other guys. Anyone still on the Manziel bandwagon is delusional. I think we got the right guy. He seems to have the head for the game. Took a beating Sunday and had his best game of the season.

Leafman
10-26-2015, 05:32 PM
I realize that the story won't be known for a few more seasons, but through week 7 QBRs are:
Bridgewater 64.00 (9th in NFL)
Bortles 61.4
Carr 60.2
Winston 48.5
Mariota 42.00
Manziel Not applicable (where I predict he will remain)

Teddy is doing just fine compared to those other guys. Anyone still on the Manziel bandwagon is delusional. I think we got the right guy. He seems to have the head for the game. Took a beating Sunday and had his best game of the season.

+1. Great post.

Suick
10-27-2015, 09:57 AM
Manziel's even in this discussion?

:beatupchickensmall:

midgensa
10-27-2015, 11:02 AM
I realize that the story won't be known for a few more seasons, but through week 7 QBRs are:
Bridgewater 64.00 (9th in NFL)
Bortles 61.4
Carr 60.2
Winston 48.5
Mariota 42.00
Manziel Not applicable (where I predict he will remain)

Teddy is doing just fine compared to those other guys. Anyone still on the Manziel bandwagon is delusional. I think we got the right guy. He seems to have the head for the game. Took a beating Sunday and had his best game of the season.

Nobody is "on the Manziel bandwagon" but he looked pretty good when he was on the field this year. Hell, he has barely played and has almost as many TDs as Teddy.

You can take the goofy QBR stat and run with it (as I mentioned in my earlier post, it is the ONLY thing Teddy can hang his hat on). But the fact remains, in common indicators of QB performance, Teddy has been struggling. The Lions game obviously moved him up and he played well, but he was saved by two unbelievably good catches.

Lets compare other things for these five guys (Manziel sample size, I agree, is too small to really use):

Teddy's ranks among the five

YDs/Game: 5th out of 5
YDs/Attempt: 4th out of 5 (Bortles)
TDs: 5th out of 5 (almost doubled by the other four! Bortles is on pace for 30+ and the other three are on pace for 22-28. Bridgewater is on a scalding 13 TD pace!)
Completion %: 2nd out of 5 (This would be impressive if his yards/attempt was not so crappy)
Sacks: Tied for first out of five! (Per game he is second to Mariota, but behind Bortles. All three have been dragged down 19 times.)
Passes of 40+: 4th out of 5 (actually tied with Manziel who has thrown 140 less passes. And if you recall ... EVERY one of Teddy's "long passes" were short runs turned long after the catch.)
Passes of 20+: 5th out of 5
And rating (which the NFL still likes more than QBR): 3rd out of 5 (but also behind Manziel)

Is he a starting caliber QB in the NFL ... sure. Is Teddy showing he belongs ahead of ANY of the guys on this list? Maybe Manziel. But we really don't know with him, do we? He has been awfully good when on the field this year.

Teddy CANNOT throw the ball downfield. He has never shown he can. There is no reason to think he can. He is very good underneath, but even then, he checks too quickly. If Diggs had not made a spectacular catch we would all be losing our minds. He was WIDE open. WIIIIIIIIIIDE open and had to dive 5 yards to make the grab.

Teddy has shown that he can mostly avoid the turnover. But he holds the ball waaaaay too long. He took three horrific sacks on Sunday on third downs in FG range where he had time to get rid of it. He is the very definition of a game manager. That might be good enough for this defense and with the aid of a surprisingly explosive player like Diggs.

But, if Teddy could throw downfield, the Diggs, Wallace, Rudolph combination would be deadly to all the teams stacking for Adrian. Or Adrian would be deadly when the back off. Right now, they don't have to back off.

Anybody who thinks that Sunday's game was won by Teddy is watching the wrong game. It was won by a) Our defense b) Great play-calling that got us WIDE OPEN players with space and c) Stefon Diggs.

Keep backing him, I am all for it. I want him to be the best out of this group of QBs. But arguing he looks better than Bortles and Carr (from his own class) or Mariota and Winston (who are a year behind him) does not seem to jive when looking at the numbers. Especially considering Bridgwater's talented defense behind him as opposed to all these other guys' dreadful defenses.

Leafman
10-27-2015, 11:27 AM
More huge praise for Bridgewater, the "gem of the 2014 draft".

http://www.scout.com/nfl/vikings/story/1603961-parcells-lofts-praise-on-bridgewater

Who you gonna trust? Informed NFL experts with success teaching, coaching and playing NFL football (Parcells, Gruden, Jaworski, Billick, Dungy, Taylor, etc)? Or the opinions of casual fans on the Internet (see above)?

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

midgensa
10-27-2015, 11:39 AM
More huge praise for Bridgewater, the "gem of the 2014 draft".

http://www.scout.com/nfl/vikings/story/1603961-parcells-lofts-praise-on-bridgewater

Who you gonna trust? Informed NFL experts with success teaching, coaching and playing NFL football (Parcells, Gruden, Jaworski, Billick, Dungy, Taylor, etc)? Or the opinions of casual fans on the Internet (see above)?

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

You know what it means when "experts" say they love someone's "mental makeup" ... it means they are NOT impressed by their physical tools.

All of us love Teddy's mental makeup. That is why I would not give up on him yet (as opposed with being done with Ponder and T-Jack by this point). He is a very good football mind I think and is a workaholic. Nobody argues that.

But if nobody cares about "casual fan" opinions, then GTFO. Seriously, that is pretty much what this forum is for. BTW, experts also loved Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Jamarcus Russell, Tim Couch, Joey Harrington. Even they fuck up.

BTW ... no expert said he was "the gem of the 2014 draft."

When Teddy is winning playoff games, I will be happy. When he is beating the Lions a couple times and a crappy Chiefs team, I will be cautiously optimistic.

Oh ... and two good games in a row would be a good start this weekend.

Edit: And you find me an expert talking about his ability to throw deep and I will continue to show you stat after stat that shows that expert is a damn moron.

Leafman
10-27-2015, 02:18 PM
BTW, experts also loved Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, Jamarcus Russell, Tim Couch, Joey Harrington. Even they fuck up.

The difference being the experts love lots of prospects who they quickly fall out of love with after a full season of NFL starts, which was the case for every one of the prospects you list.

Not so with Teddy. They love him even more now that they've seen him play and start NFL games behind what has mostly been a dismal OLINE that gives him very little time to make decisions and execute throws. Despite this OLINE play, he ranks among the best quarterbacks of the last 20 years in every major performance indicator over their first 16 starts, has posted a 10-8 record with a 65% completion percentage, 7.2 YPA and a QB rating of 86.

Compare that to this year's performance by physically gifted, downfield passing Golden Boy Andrew Luck behind an equally dismal OLine ... 1-4, 58%, 6.7, 76.3. Apparently that downfield passing ability ain't working out so well for him...



When Teddy is winning playoff games, I will be happy.

He soon will be, as is obvious to anyone paying attention to his quarterbacking abilities. Happiness is just around the corner for you...

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

purplehelmut
10-27-2015, 03:03 PM
Midge discounts QBR and proceeds to rattle off a bunch of meaningless stats. Our offense does not revolve around the pass therefore Bridgewater's pass stats compared to other QBs is like comparing apples to oranges.

MaxVike
10-28-2015, 07:37 PM
are there enough people jumping in to now call this a mass debate? :rofl:

midgensa
10-29-2015, 03:00 PM
The difference being the experts love lots of prospects who they quickly fall out of love with after a full season of NFL starts, which was the case for every one of the prospects you list.

Not so with Teddy. They love him even more now that they've seen him play and start NFL games behind what has mostly been a dismal OLINE that gives him very little time to make decisions and execute throws. Despite this OLINE play, he ranks among the best quarterbacks of the last 20 years in every major performance indicator over their first 16 starts, has posted a 10-8 record with a 65% completion percentage, 7.2 YPA and a QB rating of 86.

Compare that to this year's performance by physically gifted, downfield passing Golden Boy Andrew Luck behind an equally dismal OLine ... 1-4, 58%, 6.7, 76.3. Apparently that downfield passing ability ain't working out so well for him...




He soon will be, as is obvious to anyone paying attention to his quarterbacking abilities. Happiness is just around the corner for you...

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

Actually ... there was a ton of praise heaped on Tim Couch after his fairly decent rookie season on a dreadful Cleveland team. There was also a ton of praise heaped on Joey Harrington all the way into his fourth season before people realized it was a no deal.

You still did not show me an expert saying anything other than he has a good head on his shoulders. Parcells certainly did not say anything other than he liked him and thought he worked hard, which I have also expressed.

And really? You are going to bring Andrew Luck into this? Really? That is a joke. Teddy is not, nor never will be an Andrew Luck. He will never SNIFF throwing 40 touchdowns in a season.

In the context of the "Best-under-25" argument, you can make some arguments about how good Teddy is that can hold some weight, but you can't make any logical argument that he is in the Top 15 in the league right now. Not yet at least.

If he keeps putting up numbers like he did Sunday, then sure. But his career so far has not indicated that will happen.

You can make a snide comment about "anyone paying attention to his quarterbacking abilities" and ride a douchebag like Colin Cowherd calling him a "gem" to back your argument. I will continue to look at the numbers. I will continue to watch the games and see him miss on pass after pass more than 20 yards downfield. And I will continue to hope that changes at some point.

midgensa
10-29-2015, 03:14 PM
Midge discounts QBR and proceeds to rattle off a bunch of meaningless stats. Our offense does not revolve around the pass therefore Bridgewater's pass stats compared to other QBs is like comparing apples to oranges.

1. Did not discount QBR, just said it is a stat the the NFL DOES NOT USE. It is an ESPN stat. One so reliable that I should call Andy Dalton the best QB in the league! And Ryan Fitzpatrick and Brian Hoyer two of the top 6! It is heavily flawed in that it is very rewarding to game managers. It is very negative on passers who have to throw a ton and who play on teams that play from behind.

2. Yes, the stats I rattled off about Teddy are meaningless. Yards, TDs, Yards per attempt, rating. Nobody has ever cared about those stats in the NFL. There is a reason the league uses these stats in their evaluation of QBs and doesn't use QBR. It is because they trust them. It is why the NFL shows them on their player pages ... and not QBR. You can use 1 category ... QBR ... the ONLY one that Teddy can run with. I will use the other 15 categories to show my argument.

3. Tampa's offense does not revolve around the pass and Winston has numbers that are pretty solid. There is a reason I used stats you call garbage, like YPA. It is because they are good ways to compare heavy throwing offenses to heavy running offenses. You can call it apples to oranges, but it is the normal argument people use for defending game managers.

The fact is, when comparing these Under-25's Teddy has one HUGE advantage ... he has the best team of any of them. I am not convinced at all that any of the other four (or five including Manziel) guys in this "debate" would not be: a) also winning and b) quite possibly putting up better stats if they were leading this team.

You can remained convinced. You might be right. I hope you are. I have a Teddy jersey I wear every damn Sunday. But anybody acting like it is clear he is better than the other young QBs starting in the league are incorrect. It is definitely not clear, and if there was a draft by all GMs for a QB this week, it would be quite possible at least two or three of the other Under-25s would go ahead of Teddy.

Leafman
10-29-2015, 03:14 PM
What's clear is that you're looking at the wrong numbers.

And I sure did go there ... no matter how you slice it, Teddy has been a better NFL QB than Luck has in 2015. He might not be a better downfield passer, but through week 7, he has definitely been the better 2015 field general ... and he has all the numbers to prove it (including downfield accuracy).

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

midgensa
10-29-2015, 07:37 PM
What's clear is that you're looking at the wrong numbers.

And I sure did go there ... no matter how you slice it, Teddy has been a better NFL QB than Luck has in 2015. He might not be a better downfield passer, but through week 7, he has definitely been the better 2015 field general ... and he has all the numbers to prove it (including downfield accuracy).

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

What's clear is the ONLY statistic I need is ... 5 TD passes in 6 games. That is terrible by any standard. I don't need any of the other stats (like his lack of downfield efficiency). 5 TD passes in 6 games is a game manager. Period. It is Alex Smith without a cannon arm, but with more vision.

Someone who is useful ... but not someone who is a game changer. He starts getting us in the end zone ... and it will be CLEAR that I am happy with those stats.

JPPT1974
10-30-2015, 01:59 AM
Teddy comes up in the clutch. And is 4-2 is the reason the team is that. Due to Teddy, a pretty big part of it.

purplehelmut
10-30-2015, 10:12 AM
To me, the stats are meaningless on their own in that they don't tell the whole story of who is the better young QB. The Vikings don't ask Teddy to put up big numbers. The offense is ball control and yes, right now, he is a game manager. That's what this offense asks him to do. I imagine he will take a bigger responsibility as he matures in the offense and our Oline at least improves some. Plus he is doing well in the most important stat of all- winning ballgames. You want to talk QB rating?

Carr 101.0
Mariota 93.2
Bridgewater 87.7
Winston 85.7
Bortles 82.5
Manziel Not applicable (where he belongs)

Also, Bridge has 4 picks to Bortles 8, Winston 7, and Mariota 5. Carr has 3. Very important stat. Looks to me like Bridgewater is holding his own against the other young guys. Throw shade on our guy if you want, but he's doing just fine SO FAR. We need more scoring out of the passing offense, that is true. I'm sure Turner knows that.

MaxVike
10-30-2015, 10:23 AM
Not sure 40 is the # of TDs we should expect Teddy, or any QB, to achieve. Here's the list of QBs who have thrown 30+ TDs. You'll note that it has only happened 11 times in the history of the NFL...

Rank Player (age), + - HOFer, TD Year Teams
1. Peyton Manning (37) 55 2013 DEN
2. Tom Brady (30) 50 2007 NWE
3. Peyton Manning (28) 49 2004 IND
4. Dan Marino+ (22) 48 1984 MIA
5. Drew Brees (32) 46 2011 NOR
6. Aaron Rodgers (27) 45 2011 GNB
7. Dan Marino+ (24) 44 1986 MIA
8. Drew Brees (33) 43 2012 NOR
9. Matthew Stafford (23) 41 2011 DET
Kurt Warner (28) 41 1999 STL
11. Andrew Luck (24) 40 2014 IND
12. Daunte Culpepper (27) 39 2004 MIN
Peyton Manning (38) 39 2014 DEN
Aaron Rodgers (28) 39 2012 GNB
Brett Favre (26) 39 1996 GNB
Drew Brees (34) 39 2013 NOR
Tom Brady (34) 39 2011 NWE
18. Aaron Rodgers (30) 38 2014 GNB
Brett Favre (25) 38 1995 GNB
20. Peyton Manning (36) 37 2012 DEN
21. Steve Beuerlein (34) 36 1999 CAR
George Blanda+ (33) 36 1961 HOU
Tony Romo (27) 36 2007 DAL
Steve Young+ (36) 36 1998 SFO
Tom Brady (33) 36 2010 NWE
Y.A. Tittle+ (36) 36 1963 NYG
Kurt Warner (30) 36 2001 STL
28. Brett Favre (27) 35 1997 GNB
Steve Young+ (32) 35 1994 SFO
30. Drew Brees (30) 34 2009 NOR
Tony Romo (34) 34 2014 DAL
Philip Rivers (26) 34 2008 SDG
Drew Brees (29) 34 2008 NOR
Tom Brady (35) 34 2012 NWE
Daryle Lamonica (28) 34 1969 OAK
Randall Cunningham (35) 34 1998 MIN
37. Brett Favre (24) 33 1994 GNB
Brett Favre (39) 33 2009 MIN
Peyton Manning (33) 33 2009 IND
Dan Fouts+ (30) 33 1981 SDG
Warren Moon+ (38) 33 1995 MIN
Peyton Manning (34) 33 2010 IND
Drew Brees (31) 33 2010 NOR
Drew Brees (35) 33 2014 NOR
Tom Brady (37) 33 2014 NWE
Y.A. Tittle+ (35) 33 1962 NYG
Andy Dalton (25) 33 2013 CIN
Warren Moon+ (33) 33 1990 HOU
Vinny Testaverde (32) 33 1996 BAL
Daunte Culpepper (23) 33 2000 MIN
Peyton Manning (24) 33 2000 IND
Jim Kelly+ (31) 33 1991 BUF
53. Scott Mitchell (27) 32 1995 DET
Dave Krieg (25) 32 1984 SEA
Johnny Unitas+ (26) 32 1959 BAL
Ben Roethlisberger (32) 32 2014 PIT
Brett Favre (33) 32 2003 GNB
Lynn Dickey (33) 32 1983 GNB
Matt Ryan (27) 32 2012 ATL
Sonny Jurgensen+ (27) 32 1961 PHI
Ben Roethlisberger (25) 32 2007 PIT
Carson Palmer (25) 32 2005 CIN
Philip Rivers (31) 32 2013 SDG
Jeff Garcia (31) 32 2001 SFO
Brett Favre (31) 32 2001 GNB
66. Jeff Garcia (30) 31 2000 SFO
Joe Montana+ (31) 31 1987 SFO
Philip Rivers (32) 31 2014 SDG
Sonny Jurgensen+ (33) 31 1967 WAS
Donovan McNabb (27) 31 2004 PHI
Eli Manning (29) 31 2010 NYG
Babe Parilli (34) 31 1964 BOS
Peyton Manning (31) 31 2007 IND
Tony Romo (31) 31 2011 DAL
Peyton Manning (30) 31 2006 IND
Steve Bartkowski (27) 31 1980 ATL
Tony Romo (33) 31 2013 DAL
Brett Favre (28) 31 1998 GNB
Jim Everett (25) 31 1988 RAM

I agree with the point that at this point in Teddy's career, he's a game manager. We do need to see more touchdowns, and, I think we will. I think each of the young QBs has shown flashes of promise. Teddy clearly has a better Team around him, although, the Raiders are building something out there. At this point, I believe Carr would probably outperform Teddy demonstrably, if roles were reversed...and, is without them being so.

That said, I won't get into the numbers game to compare Luck to Teddy...I'd take Luck over everyone other than Rodgers if I were starting a Team today.

tarkenton10
10-30-2015, 10:52 AM
1. Did not discount QBR, just said it is a stat the the NFL DOES NOT USE. It is an ESPN stat. One so reliable that I should call Andy Dalton the best QB in the league! And Ryan Fitzpatrick and Brian Hoyer two of the top 6! It is heavily flawed in that it is very rewarding to game managers. It is very negative on passers who have to throw a ton and who play on teams that play from behind.

2. Yes, the stats I rattled off about Teddy are meaningless. Yards, TDs, Yards per attempt, rating. Nobody has ever cared about those stats in the NFL. There is a reason the league uses these stats in their evaluation of QBs and doesn't use QBR. It is because they trust them. It is why the NFL shows them on their player pages ... and not QBR. You can use 1 category ... QBR ... the ONLY one that Teddy can run with. I will use the other 15 categories to show my argument.

3. Tampa's offense does not revolve around the pass and Winston has numbers that are pretty solid. There is a reason I used stats you call garbage, like YPA. It is because they are good ways to compare heavy throwing offenses to heavy running offenses. You can call it apples to oranges, but it is the normal argument people use for defending game managers.

The fact is, when comparing these Under-25's Teddy has one HUGE advantage ... he has the best team of any of them. I am not convinced at all that any of the other four (or five including Manziel) guys in this "debate" would not be: a) also winning and b) quite possibly putting up better stats if they were leading this team.

You can remained convinced. You might be right. I hope you are. I have a Teddy jersey I wear every damn Sunday. But anybody acting like it is clear he is better than the other young QBs starting in the league are incorrect. It is definitely not clear, and if there was a draft by all GMs for a QB this week, it would be quite possible at least two or three of the other Under-25s would go ahead of Teddy.

I like Tb but he has some flaws, one of them is his deep ball and velocity. i really hope Heinke gets a shot next year, he looked good in preseason.

tarkenton10
10-30-2015, 10:55 AM
Not sure 40 is the # of TDs we should expect Teddy, or any QB, to achieve. Here's the list of QBs who have thrown 30+ TDs. You'll note that it has only happened 11 times in the history of the NFL...

Rank Player (age), + - HOFer, TD Year Teams
1. Peyton Manning (37) 55 2013 DEN
2. Tom Brady (30) 50 2007 NWE
3. Peyton Manning (28) 49 2004 IND
4. Dan Marino+ (22) 48 1984 MIA
5. Drew Brees (32) 46 2011 NOR
6. Aaron Rodgers (27) 45 2011 GNB
7. Dan Marino+ (24) 44 1986 MIA
8. Drew Brees (33) 43 2012 NOR
9. Matthew Stafford (23) 41 2011 DET
Kurt Warner (28) 41 1999 STL
11. Andrew Luck (24) 40 2014 IND
12. Daunte Culpepper (27) 39 2004 MIN
Peyton Manning (38) 39 2014 DEN
Aaron Rodgers (28) 39 2012 GNB
Brett Favre (26) 39 1996 GNB
Drew Brees (34) 39 2013 NOR
Tom Brady (34) 39 2011 NWE
18. Aaron Rodgers (30) 38 2014 GNB
Brett Favre (25) 38 1995 GNB
20. Peyton Manning (36) 37 2012 DEN
21. Steve Beuerlein (34) 36 1999 CAR
George Blanda+ (33) 36 1961 HOU
Tony Romo (27) 36 2007 DAL
Steve Young+ (36) 36 1998 SFO
Tom Brady (33) 36 2010 NWE
Y.A. Tittle+ (36) 36 1963 NYG
Kurt Warner (30) 36 2001 STL
28. Brett Favre (27) 35 1997 GNB
Steve Young+ (32) 35 1994 SFO
30. Drew Brees (30) 34 2009 NOR
Tony Romo (34) 34 2014 DAL
Philip Rivers (26) 34 2008 SDG
Drew Brees (29) 34 2008 NOR
Tom Brady (35) 34 2012 NWE
Daryle Lamonica (28) 34 1969 OAK
Randall Cunningham (35) 34 1998 MIN
37. Brett Favre (24) 33 1994 GNB
Brett Favre (39) 33 2009 MIN
Peyton Manning (33) 33 2009 IND
Dan Fouts+ (30) 33 1981 SDG
Warren Moon+ (38) 33 1995 MIN
Peyton Manning (34) 33 2010 IND
Drew Brees (31) 33 2010 NOR
Drew Brees (35) 33 2014 NOR
Tom Brady (37) 33 2014 NWE
Y.A. Tittle+ (35) 33 1962 NYG
Andy Dalton (25) 33 2013 CIN
Warren Moon+ (33) 33 1990 HOU
Vinny Testaverde (32) 33 1996 BAL
Daunte Culpepper (23) 33 2000 MIN
Peyton Manning (24) 33 2000 IND
Jim Kelly+ (31) 33 1991 BUF
53. Scott Mitchell (27) 32 1995 DET
Dave Krieg (25) 32 1984 SEA
Johnny Unitas+ (26) 32 1959 BAL
Ben Roethlisberger (32) 32 2014 PIT
Brett Favre (33) 32 2003 GNB
Lynn Dickey (33) 32 1983 GNB
Matt Ryan (27) 32 2012 ATL
Sonny Jurgensen+ (27) 32 1961 PHI
Ben Roethlisberger (25) 32 2007 PIT
Carson Palmer (25) 32 2005 CIN
Philip Rivers (31) 32 2013 SDG
Jeff Garcia (31) 32 2001 SFO
Brett Favre (31) 32 2001 GNB
66. Jeff Garcia (30) 31 2000 SFO
Joe Montana+ (31) 31 1987 SFO
Philip Rivers (32) 31 2014 SDG
Sonny Jurgensen+ (33) 31 1967 WAS
Donovan McNabb (27) 31 2004 PHI
Eli Manning (29) 31 2010 NYG
Babe Parilli (34) 31 1964 BOS
Peyton Manning (31) 31 2007 IND
Tony Romo (31) 31 2011 DAL
Peyton Manning (30) 31 2006 IND
Steve Bartkowski (27) 31 1980 ATL
Tony Romo (33) 31 2013 DAL
Brett Favre (28) 31 1998 GNB
Jim Everett (25) 31 1988 RAM

I agree with the point that at this point in Teddy's career, he's a game manager. We do need to see more touchdowns, and, I think we will. I think each of the young QBs has shown flashes of promise. Teddy clearly has a better Team around him, although, the Raiders are building something out there. At this point, I believe Carr would probably outperform Teddy demonstrably, if roles were reversed...and, is without them being so.

That said, I won't get into the numbers game to compare Luck to Teddy...I'd take Luck over everyone other than Rodgers if I were starting a Team today.

Tom Brady?!?!?!

purplehelmut
10-30-2015, 11:36 AM
Bridge's numbers might be better if he had Cooper to throw it to. Vikings have as yet no true number 1 receiver.

Leafman
10-30-2015, 01:42 PM
I should have known better than to bring up Andrew Luck. The Internet is not good enough at reading comprehension to understand a point fully when it is being made. Even when the point being made is right there in black and white print, to be read over and over again, the Internet fails to comprehend....

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

MaxVike
10-30-2015, 09:38 PM
Tom Brady?!?!?!

I get ya...Tom Brady is awesome, best ever IMHO, but, 39. Starting a Team today...gimme Rodgers

midgensa
10-31-2015, 11:12 AM
To me, the stats are meaningless on their own in that they don't tell the whole story of who is the better young QB. The Vikings don't ask Teddy to put up big numbers. The offense is ball control and yes, right now, he is a game manager. That's what this offense asks him to do. I imagine he will take a bigger responsibility as he matures in the offense and our Oline at least improves some. Plus he is doing well in the most important stat of all- winning ballgames. You want to talk QB rating?

Carr 101.0
Mariota 93.2
Bridgewater 87.7
Winston 85.7
Bortles 82.5
Manziel Not applicable (where he belongs)

Also, Bridge has 4 picks to Bortles 8, Winston 7, and Mariota 5. Carr has 3. Very important stat. Looks to me like Bridgewater is holding his own against the other young guys. Throw shade on our guy if you want, but he's doing just fine SO FAR. We need more scoring out of the passing offense, that is true. I'm sure Turner knows that.

All right ...we got it. You like QBR and Rating because Bridgewater is not last in those. Throw out the stats he struggles in ... like anything downfield, sack percentage (which is comfortably higher than the other guys), TDs (those certainly don't matter). I know ... rookie QBs throwing interceptions are another reason we should rank Bridgewater ahead of them and forget his picks as a rookie.

Tarvaris Jackson went 8-4 as a starter in 2007 ... and it caused people to like him more than they should have, including myself. What people failed to realize, is the team was pretty damn good and QB was holding us back.

I like what Teddy did last game, but he was certainly bailed out by two phenomenal TD catches that he almost completely blew. Hopefully he keeps it up against a very weak defense this week. The problem I see ... he is certainly a game manager right now ... and it is hard to imagine him developing into more. If he cannot wing it downfield, he is going to become a liability at some point.

midgensa
10-31-2015, 11:17 AM
I get ya...Tom Brady is awesome, best ever IMHO, but, 39. Starting a Team today...gimme Rodgers

Only 38 ... now don't add age to people who are old enough already!

Yeah ... it would be hard to take anyone other than Rodgers, who probably still has 8 good years at least.

It would have to be Luck, Rodgers, Wilson, Newton ... those guys way up. Ryan, Dalton, Stafford (who is still only 27) in the next tier (starting today of course).

I am glad Stafford is stuck in crappy ass Detroit. He would be one of the best in the league with a better coaching staff that reigned him in a little bit.

MaxVike
10-31-2015, 07:02 PM
Only 38 ... now don't add age to people who are old enough already!

Yeah ... it would be hard to take anyone other than Rodgers, who probably still has 8 good years at least.

It would have to be Luck, Rodgers, Wilson, Newton ... those guys way up. Ryan, Dalton, Stafford (who is still only 27) in the next tier (starting today of course).

I am glad Stafford is stuck in crappy ass Detroit. He would be one of the best in the league with a better coaching staff that reigned him in a little bit.

Ha! Sorry, had him mixed up with the age I choose to be stuck at...:(

Good point about Stafford...he'd be dangerous with a good coach.

johnkdbr
11-02-2015, 02:04 PM
Teddy has the best stat of all the other under 25 QB's...He's 5-2. Put together 2 scoring drives to beat the Bears Sunday. Diggs & CJ did make awesome plays...But the QB's job is to give your best players chances to make plays & Teddy did just that. I agree he's inconsistant but as you read in the Bill Parcels article Norv Turner is bringing him along slowly. I'm just waiting for all the lights to come on & lift Teddy to that elite level. Remember he's playing behind a makeshift O-Line & really hasn't had any time to be consistant, but give the O-line a little more time playing together & we could be a witness to something special this November & December.

midgensa
11-02-2015, 02:16 PM
Teddy has the best stat of all the other under 25 QB's...He's 5-2. Put together 2 scoring drives to beat the Bears Sunday. Diggs & CJ did make awesome plays...But the QB's job is to give your best players chances to make plays & Teddy did just that. I agree he's inconsistant but as you read in the Bill Parcels article Norv Turner is bringing him along slowly. I'm just waiting for all the lights to come on & lift Teddy to that elite level. Remember he's playing behind a makeshift O-Line & really hasn't had any time to be consistant, but give the O-line a little more time playing together & we could be a witness to something special this November & December.

Winning does not automatically make him better than the other guys. Though, they are winning, too. With a lot less.

There is little argument that of Bortles, Manziel, Bridgewater, Carr, Winston Mariota ... Bridgewater has the best team. It really is not even close. They all have offensive lines just as bad or worse than the Vikings. Carr is still 4-3 in OAKLAND ... in OAKLAND ... with a pretty average defense. He is also statistically superior to Bridgewater almost across the board.

I am sorry, I believe we are still 5-2 with any of those other guys at QB ... including Manziel! (though Mariota has the most development still ahead of him I think). The one stat people could hang their head on was QBR, which Bridgewater dropped 10 spots in this week ... and it would have been a ton more if he had not gotten hot in the fourth quarter.

I liked what I saw on those two drives, but why did I have to watch that garbage for three quarters first? Why did I have to see him airmail two WIDE OPEN outs in the first half and overthrow a wide open downfield WR for the SECOND WEEK IN A ROW (Diggs saved his ass against the Lions).

He is too focused on not making mistakes and then when he takes a shot before the half ... he makes a DREADFUL mistake.

Right now, we are winning IN SPITE of Touchdown Teddy. I think it is a head game though, and that gives me hope. He just needs to be more sure of himself and let it go on target and on time.

Leafman
11-02-2015, 03:47 PM
Carr is still 4-3 in OAKLAND ... in OAKLAND ... with a pretty average defense. He is also statistically superior to Bridgewater almost across the board.

He also has the best weapon of all of the young QBs ... Amari Cooper is a freak and is likely going to be the NFL's next great receiver. Without him, no way does Carr put up the numbers he has thus far.


Why did I have to see him airmail two WIDE OPEN outs in the first half and overthrow a wide open downfield WR for the SECOND WEEK IN A ROW.

No argument that Teddy didn't have his best game, but cut him some slack... that wind was playing havoc on the deep balls. In fact Cutler overthrew a wide open receiver going the same direction. And one of Teddy's deep throws the other way got caught up in the wind and fell way short. Have you ever thrown a football up high more than 25 yards downfield in a 15-20 mph wind? I have ... and those balls didn't come anywhere close to where I was aiming (yes, I'm an accurate passer). Teddy has also been plagued by key drops from Wallace, Rudolph, Johnson and Pruitt the last several weeks, or his numbers would look much better from the great numbers he's already posted.

Teddy's learning, it's gonna be two steps forward, one step back for a few years. But dude knows how to command the line of scrimmage, move around in the pocket, complete passes on the run, and most importantly, move the chains consistently. All of you Bridgewater critics will be eating copious amounts of crow no later than the end of his third season.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

Leafman
11-02-2015, 03:56 PM
Starting a Team today...gimme Rodgers

Hmmmmmm.....

Teddy Bridgewater, 4 weeks ago, versus Denver at Mile High:
27/41, 269 yds, 1 TD, 0 INT

Aaron Rodgers, last night, versus Denver at Mile High:
14/22, 77 yds, 0 TD, 0 INT

I mean, I'd start a team with Brady. Then maybe Rodgers. But that doesn't mean either one of them isn't going to look like a Div II backup from time to time....

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

midgensa
11-02-2015, 05:59 PM
He also has the best weapon of all of the young QBs ... Amari Cooper is a freak and is likely going to be the NFL's next great receiver. Without him, no way does Carr put up the numbers he has thus far.



No argument that Teddy didn't have his best game, but cut him some slack... that wind was playing havoc on the deep balls. In fact Cutler overthrew a wide open receiver going the same direction. And one of Teddy's deep throws the other way got caught up in the wind and fell way short. Have you ever thrown a football up high more than 25 yards downfield in a 15-20 mph wind? I have ... and those balls didn't come anywhere close to where I was aiming (yes, I'm an accurate passer). Teddy has also been plagued by key drops from Wallace, Rudolph, Johnson and Pruitt the last several weeks, or his numbers would look much better from the great numbers he's already posted.

Teddy's learning, it's gonna be two steps forward, one step back for a few years. But dude knows how to command the line of scrimmage, move around in the pocket, complete passes on the run, and most importantly, move the chains consistently. All of you Bridgewater critics will be eating copious amounts of crow no later than the end of his third season.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

I like Bridgewater. I think he is a solid NFL QB, but right now he is a game manager and nothing more. The other guys on this list are not. They are legit 300+ yard threats EVERY week. They can throw three TDs in a game.

That is the discussion here. Can he evolve? Maybe. He damn well better.

And drops? Really? We have one of the lowest drop rates in the league. And you cannot talk about drops without talking about Diggs grabbing a terrible pass for a TD vs. Detroit. Rudolph grabbing a terrible pass for a TD vs. Detroit. Our guys drop a lot less than most teams. We have a whole 7 on the entire season. That is as many as Edelman all by himself. Brady still manages to be pretty damn solid.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2015/

Leafman
11-02-2015, 10:24 PM
I like Bridgewater. I think he is a solid NFL QB, but right now he is a game manager and nothing more. The other guys on this list are not. They are legit 300+ yard threats EVERY week.


Really?? You don't mind if I check your math, do you?

Let's see ... 300-yard games per start:

#1 - Bridgewater, 21.0% (4 games, 19 starts)
#2 - Mariota, 20.0% (1 game, 5 starts)
#3 - Carr, 17.4% (4 games, 23 starts)
#4 - Bortles, 15.0% (3 games, 20 starts)
#5 - Winston, 0% (0 games, 8 starts)

Well, you got that one very wrong. Those numbers not only invalidate your assertion, but suggest that the opposite is the case!

Maybe you meant average passing yards per game? Nope ... after Mariota with 248 yds/game, you have 3 guys basically tied at 235 yds/game (Bortles, Bridgewater and Winston), with Carr bringing up the rear at 220 yds/game. So clearly that stat not only fails to support your argument, but refutes it.

Maybe average yards per attempt? Nope. While Bridgewater (6.7 ay/att) lags rookies Mariota (7.4 ay/att) and Winston (7.3 ay/att) who have far fewer starts than the rest, he leads his sophomore peers with similar starts, Carr (6.2 ay/att) and Bortles (5.5 ay/att).

Hmmm, perhaps you need to reconsider your apparent bias.

While it is true that Bridgewater trails the rest in TD% (he's behind Bortles by 0.2%), he also leads all the rest of them except Carr in INT% by 0.3%-0.6%. In other words, he doesn't throw as many TDs, but he also doesn't throw as many picks. There's a risk/reward equation that comes with slinging it down the field ... and the Vikings have both a team style and an offensive system that don't justify a lot of downfield passes, which is different from all 4 other teams the other guys play for.

First, the Vikings are 2nd in scoring defense ... the other teams are in or near the bottom half of the league (14, 18, 28 and 31). The more your opponents score, the more you need to rely on your QB to air it out, and that jacks up the risk/reward equation for downfield passing, which is exactly what we see in the stats for these guys.

If you add a strong rushing attack to an elite scoring defense, which the Vikings have and the others do not, this only magnifies the above dynamic. The Vikings rank #8 in both rush yards/attempt and in 1st downs by rushing, i.e. they gain big chunks of yardage and they move the chains with the run. The other teams do not (#12, 14, 18 and 23 in rush yards/attempt, and #20, 26, 28, 30 in 1st downs by rushing). The Vikings simply don't need to take as many risks in the passing game as those other teams do, and so the Vikings eschew some of the rewards. It's not that Bridgewater can't be more than a "game manager" (when he's been called upon to do more, as he was against a ferocious Denver defense or late in the game against Chicago, he HAS been more), it's that Zimmer and Turner usually don't need to ask him to be more.

You can't see that, which you've made abundantly clear with your statements lacking any basis in statistical fact per above. Which is why you'll be eating plenty of crow as a Bridgewater critic in the not too distant future.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

purplehelmut
11-03-2015, 09:21 AM
Leaf,
Pretty much what I've been saying. The Vikings offense doesn't ask Bridgewater to do more so his numbers won't look like the other guys who are asked to do (throw) more. Apples vs. oranges. Even so, his numbers stack up very well. That said, I am getting a little tired of some of his bad misses. Shouldn't be missing most of those at this level. But I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. He's still a very young QB. Very, very important game Sunday. We may well be fighting out a Wild Card spot with the Rams before it's over with. Bridge needs to step up. Our scoring simply has to improve.

midgensa
11-03-2015, 11:06 AM
Really?? You don't mind if I check your math, do you?

Let's see ... 300-yard games per start:

#1 - Bridgewater, 21.0% (4 games, 19 starts)
#2 - Mariota, 20.0% (1 game, 5 starts)
#3 - Carr, 17.4% (4 games, 23 starts)
#4 - Bortles, 15.0% (3 games, 20 starts)
#5 - Winston, 0% (0 games, 8 starts)

Well, you got that one very wrong. Those numbers not only invalidate your assertion, but suggest that the opposite is the case!

Maybe you meant average passing yards per game? Nope ... after Mariota with 248 yds/game, you have 3 guys basically tied at 235 yds/game (Bortles, Bridgewater and Winston), with Carr bringing up the rear at 220 yds/game. So clearly that stat not only fails to support your argument, but refutes it.

Maybe average yards per attempt? Nope. While Bridgewater (6.7 ay/att) lags rookies Mariota (7.4 ay/att) and Winston (7.3 ay/att) who have far fewer starts than the rest, he leads his sophomore peers with similar starts, Carr (6.2 ay/att) and Bortles (5.5 ay/att).

Hmmm, perhaps you need to reconsider your apparent bias.

While it is true that Bridgewater trails the rest in TD% (he's behind Bortles by 0.2%), he also leads all the rest of them except Carr in INT% by 0.3%-0.6%. In other words, he doesn't throw as many TDs, but he also doesn't throw as many picks. There's a risk/reward equation that comes with slinging it down the field ... and the Vikings have both a team style and an offensive system that don't justify a lot of downfield passes, which is different from all 4 other teams the other guys play for.

First, the Vikings are 2nd in scoring defense ... the other teams are in or near the bottom half of the league (14, 18, 28 and 31). The more your opponents score, the more you need to rely on your QB to air it out, and that jacks up the risk/reward equation for downfield passing, which is exactly what we see in the stats for these guys.

If you add a strong rushing attack to an elite scoring defense, which the Vikings have and the others do not, this only magnifies the above dynamic. The Vikings rank #8 in both rush yards/attempt and in 1st downs by rushing, i.e. they gain big chunks of yardage and they move the chains with the run. The other teams do not (#12, 14, 18 and 23 in rush yards/attempt, and #20, 26, 28, 30 in 1st downs by rushing). The Vikings simply don't need to take as many risks in the passing game as those other teams do, and so the Vikings eschew some of the rewards. It's not that Bridgewater can't be more than a "game manager" (when he's been called upon to do more, as he was against a ferocious Denver defense or late in the game against Chicago, he HAS been more), it's that Zimmer and Turner usually don't need to ask him to be more.

You can't see that, which you've made abundantly clear with your statements lacking any basis in statistical fact per above. Which is why you'll be eating plenty of crow as a Bridgewater critic in the not too distant future.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

The thing is ... you keep acting like last year matters ... it doesn't. Everyone KNEW that Bridgewater was the most NFL ready QB in his draft. They just didn't know how much growth there was ... comparing his numbers to last year shows something absolutely clear ... a lack of growth. He is virtually the same as last year. A game manager who has a team good enough to win if he doesn't make mistakes. He has shown NO growth at all. Not statistically and not when you watch him. Bortles and Carr, by comparison, have both grown immensely. Statistically, THIS SEASON, they are far superior to Bridgewater with far inferior teams and at least just as bad an offensive line. They have weapons at best equivalent to Bridgewater, if not worse.

Last year doesn't matter. Bortles 13 starts as a rookie were a throw away. This year he is making plays for a dreadful team and keeping them in games. Winston has strung three VERY GOOD games together (Bridgewater has not put two good games together) and clearly is starting to "get it" faster than many thought he would. Carr is leaps and bounds ahead of all of them right now. The numbers are not even comparable.

Since you want to call out stats as if I am crazy ... here we go:

Yds/Game:
1. Bortles, 258.9; 2. Carr, 256.1; 3. Mariota, 247.8; 4. Winston, 235.4; 5. Bridgewater, 218.0

Completion % (Just and aside, Weeden leads the league for qualified throwers. A highly overrated stat in the current pass-happy environment)
1. Carr, 65.5; 2. Bridgewater, 64.5; 3. Mariota, 64.0; 4. Winston, 58.6; 5. Bortles, 55.7

TD percentage
1. Carr, 6.6; 2. Manziel (just for fun :)) 3. 6.0; Mariota, 5.6; 4. Bortles, 5.5; 5. Winston, 4.8' 6. Bridgewater, 2.8 - Only Manning, Kaepernick and Mallet are worse and two of them are BENCHED!!!!

Sack percentage
1. Mariota, 11.8; 2. Bridgewater, 8.7;; 3. Bortles, 6.6; 4. Winston, 6.3; 5. Carr, 3.4

Rating
1. Carr, 105.7; 2. Mariota, 93.7; 3. Winston, 85.6; 4. Bridgewater, 85.5; 5. Bortles, 82.5

QBR
1. Carr, 65.8; 2. Bridgewater, 61.9; 3. Bortles, 61.4; 4. Winston, 58.7; 5. Mariota, 42.0

Interception %
1. Winston, 3.3; 2. Mariota, 3.1; 3. Bortles, 3.0; 4. Bridgewater, 2.4; 5. Carr, 1.3

1st Down %
1. Mariota, 40.4; 2. Winston, 37.1; 3. Carr, 34.5; 4. Bridgewater, 34.1; 5. Bortles, 33.9

And ... I am too tuckered to do the downfield stat percentages ... but he is 5th in 20+ and 40+ downfield pass completion totals.

It is rather clear by those numbers that anyone arguing Carr is not the best of these guys right now is merely a Vikings homer and nothing more. It is also clear that the two ROOKIES are performing as well or better than both Bortles and Bridgewater. By next year, Mariota and Winston could be unreal, especially Winston. You can make some arguments to Bridgewater being in the mix with those four. But they all seem to be trending upward. Bridgewater does not.

C Mac D
11-03-2015, 11:20 AM
Is this really an argument? Carr has 1,793 yards, 17 TDs and 3 INTs...

Bridewater has 1,526 yards, 6 TDs and 5 INTs...

Carr is further along than Bridgewater, without question. Bridgewater still can't throw the deep ball with any accuracy, which is why the Mike Wallace signing was so puzzling. Even the Stephon Diggs TD catch from week 7 was overthrown, but Diggs made a great play on the ball.

Listen, I don't mind Bridgewater, he's playing fine for now. But we're simply not a team built to win a Super Bowl. We'll probably make the playoffs, similar to 2012, but we can't compete with the top teams in the NFL. The teams we beat have a combined record of 9-30... so let's not get too high on the playoff hopes quite yet.

midgensa
11-03-2015, 01:17 PM
Is this really an argument? Carr has 1,793 yards, 17 TDs and 3 INTs...

Bridewater has 1,526 yards, 6 TDs and 5 INTs...

Carr is further along than Bridgewater, without question. Bridgewater still can't throw the deep ball with any accuracy, which is why the Mike Wallace signing was so puzzling. Even the Stephon Diggs TD catch from week 7 was overthrown, but Diggs made a great play on the ball.

Listen, I don't mind Bridgewater, he's playing fine for now. But we're simply not a team built to win a Super Bowl. We'll probably make the playoffs, similar to 2012, but we can't compete with the top teams in the NFL. The teams we beat have a combined record of 9-30... so let's not get too high on the playoff hopes quite yet.

No ... this is not really an argument. It is similar to the Ponder in 2012 and Jackson in 2007-08 issues. People think we are winning some games ... so the QB is good.

I think Bridgewater definitely has room to grow and could grow. He does have poise. But based purely on what we have seen ON THE FIELD. It would be hard for me to draft him ahead of any of the other 4 under 25 starters. Carr and Winston look really good right now. Mariota is VERY efficient with a completely dreadful team. And Bortles is starting to show he can handle the game to go with his immense physical talent. All of them have shown some sort of growth (except maybe Mariota). Bridgewater has not. He is absolutely no different than he was last season.

This has somehow turned into people thinking that I think Bridgewater is not a starting-caliber QB. I think he is. But I don't know that he will ever be much more than he is now (which is still better than what we have had). I think all of those other guys (Manziel included) still have the potential to be much more than what they are right now. Every time Bridgewater looks to move into the upper half of the league in QBs, he takes a step back.

RK.
11-03-2015, 02:22 PM
In two weeks we get to see them go head to head. That should answer a lot of questions. Stats never tell the whole story. We only pass the ball 52.86 % of the time. Oakland passes the ball 62.44% of the time. So yes Carr will have bigger passing stats in yrds, TD's etc. Because he is throwing the ball a lot more than Teddy. Our offense is a lot more balanced that Oakland's is.

C Mac D
11-03-2015, 02:30 PM
In two weeks we get to see them go head to head. That should answer a lot of questions. Stats never tell the whole story.

I mean, you don't really need to see them go head-to-head to realize Carr is a better QB at the moment.

RK.
11-03-2015, 06:39 PM
I mean, you don't really need to see them go head-to-head to realize Carr is a better QB at the moment.

This week he looked better.

midgensa
11-03-2015, 10:28 PM
This week he looked better.

He has looked better every week this year. He has thrown for 300 yards three different times. 3 or 4 TDs 3 different times. A 100+ rating 4 times. And has thrown less INTs than TDTeddy also.

They were kind of even the week Teddy shot for 300+ against the Lions. But Carr still slung three TDs that week as well.

tarkenton10
11-05-2015, 10:17 AM
He has looked better every week this year. He has thrown for 300 yards three different times. 3 or 4 TDs 3 different times. A 100+ rating 4 times. And has thrown less INTs than TDTeddy also.

They were kind of even the week Teddy shot for 300+ against the Lions. But Carr still slung three TDs that week as well.

I think Carr has looked better, that is not a bad thing though, TB is doing OK. We are dealt with him as our QB, we can't go back and draft Carr. I am not sure TB is our best QB on our roster, I want to see what Heinke can do next year. But that is taboo, you can't mess with the fragile confidence of a starting QB. That to me says he is not a franchise QB, otherwise he would be confident he is the best one out there. He should welcome competition if he can beat them.

purplehelmut
11-05-2015, 01:56 PM
I just read the scouting report on Heinicke on NFL.com. Ok, maybe they are full of it. But , are you serious? Sounds like he has all the weaknesses we don't need. You think Teddy has a noodle arm? Sounds like this guy couldn't knock over a milk bottle at 15 yards.

tarkenton10
11-05-2015, 02:33 PM
I just read the scouting report on Heinicke on NFL.com. Ok, maybe they are full of it. But , are you serious? Sounds like he has all the weaknesses we don't need. You think Teddy has a noodle arm? Sounds like this guy couldn't knock over a milk bottle at 15 yards.

I just know what I saw in preseason, maybe he isn't the answer, i just want to see more of him.

tarkenton10
11-05-2015, 02:55 PM
I just read the scouting report on Heinicke on NFL.com. Ok, maybe they are full of it. But , are you serious? Sounds like he has all the weaknesses we don't need. You think Teddy has a noodle arm? Sounds like this guy couldn't knock over a milk bottle at 15 yards.

I saw this article and i saw his arm in preseason, it doesn't look that weak.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/old-dominion/dp-spt-odu-football-pro-day-heinicke-20150319-story.html

midgensa
11-05-2015, 08:55 PM
I saw this article and i saw his arm in preseason, it doesn't look that weak.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/old-dominion/dp-spt-odu-football-pro-day-heinicke-20150319-story.html

Don't worry. You are not aloud to question Bridgewater around here without being called crazy. He is clearly one of the best QBs in the league. You cannot even think Derek Carr and his VASTLY superior numbers are better without being told how crazy you are.

That said, I don't think that Heinicke is an NFL-caliber player, but he DEFINITELY outperformed his scouting report in the preseason. I would not mind seeing more of him at all. And he could possibly be a future backup.

Ted Dibiase
11-06-2015, 12:37 AM
I've always been a big TB backer. Even when he was projected to be a top 5 pick, I thought it might be a good idea if the Vikes could get a good trade to move up and get him...even if AP was part of the deal. I'll admit, right now, Carr looks like the better QB this year. With that said, you do have to keep in mind that they're playing in different games. The Vikings have scored 31 less and given up 51 less points than the Raiders, and Minnesota's a game ahead. They're not competing for fantasy points. None of us know what those coaches are telling the guy before he goes out, but I'll go out on a limb and say that "Don't turn the ball over whatever you do." is a big part of a defensive head coach's message.

What I liked about Teddy, and still do, is how he doesn't get flustered by pressure and keeps his eyes downfield as he moves. In that respect he's what Ponder wasn't. Watching on TV, you can't tell what he sees, but after a while it seems like somebody should be open and too often it results in a throw away. That has to improve, whether it's TB or his receivers or an upgrade at tight end.

I have become concerned about deep ball accuracy, but I still think the ability to allow guys to get downfield is the big thing, and not overthrowing them is more easily corrected.

I'd think this kind of thing would be obvious, but these days is worth pointing out...he is a few days from turning 23 years old.

C Mac D
11-06-2015, 09:00 AM
Why are people just starting to become concerned about Bridgewater's deep-ball accuracy? This was one of his biggest knocks coming out of Louisville. I got crucified on this site for pointing that out after we drafted him, but guess what... he still can't throw the deep ball. Nothing has changed.

Sure, he'll get a deep completion every now and again, but it's definitely a weakness of his.

purplehelmut
11-06-2015, 09:57 AM
For all you Manziel fans out there- 15 of 33. 15 of 33 for crying out loud. I'm no rocket surgeon but that is less than a 50% completion rate. Around 45% or so. In a dumbed down offense. I'd love to hear the hue and cry if Bridgewater had an outing as futile. Manziel will soon be joining Tebow and RG3 as another failed experiment.

midgensa
11-06-2015, 10:13 AM
For all you Manziel fans out there- 15 of 33. 15 of 33 for crying out loud. I'm no rocket surgeon but that is less than a 50% completion rate. Around 45% or so. In a dumbed down offense. I'd love to hear the hue and cry if Bridgewater had an outing as futile. Manziel will soon be joining Tebow and RG3 as another failed experiment.

Here is the funny thing ... I included Manziel in this discussion because he was an "Under-25" QB ... not because I am a fan. I don't think he is anything better than a mid-tier NFL QB at best ... but that does not mean that Teddy Bridgewater is "better." BTW ... Bridgewater against K.C. and against San Diego was pretty much just as futile.

What is funny is all the blind homerism here ... I can sum it all up pretty easily

T. Bridgewater after struggling: His offensive line is terrible; he does what Norv asks of him; We won (even though defense saved our ass); He doesn't have as many weapons as other guys; He is not even 23 yet; His mom forgot the celery in his chicken soup

J. Manziel after struggling: See, HE SUCKS. Teddy is God!

It is like when I say a QB sucks and someone's idiot wife says, "I'd like to see you do better." Just because Johnny Football has a bad outing does not mean Touchdown Teddy is a legit NFL QB. Their season numbers are ridiculously comparable (obviously Teddy has played a ton more) and Teddy ABSOLUTELY has a better offensive line, WR Corps and RB situation. Not to mention defense.

You can hem and haw all you like, it is hard to imagine that we would not be in a very similar 5-2 situation with Manziel at QB. Especially if he was reigned in at all by Norv the way everyone here CLAIMS that Bridgewater is reigned in.

midgensa
11-06-2015, 10:16 AM
Why are people just starting to become concerned about Bridgewater's deep-ball accuracy? This was one of his biggest knocks coming out of Louisville. I got crucified on this site for pointing that out after we drafted him, but guess what... he still can't throw the deep ball. Nothing has changed.

Sure, he'll get a deep completion every now and again, but it's definitely a weakness of his.

I thought it was a weakness out of college, but I thought maybe it was being overplayed. But, it clearly is a MAJOR issue.

Players don't fall from CLEAR No. 1 pick to No. 32 for no reason. His arm strength is the ENTIRE reason why. He cannot wing it AND he does not make up for it with touch or timing downfield. Manning never had a really strong arm, but throws an excellent deep ball.

I am not sure if it s mechanics, head issues or straight up lacking in arm talent. If it is either of the first two, in theory it is fixable. If he can make himself a legitimate threat more than 10 yards down the field then we become a very dangerous team.

C Mac D
11-06-2015, 10:21 AM
For all you Manziel fans out there- 15 of 33. 15 of 33 for crying out loud. I'm no rocket surgeon but that is less than a 50% completion rate. Around 45% or so. In a dumbed down offense. I'd love to hear the hue and cry if Bridgewater had an outing as futile. Manziel will soon be joining Tebow and RG3 as another failed experiment.

So, Bridgewater is successful because Manziel sucks? If we're judging our QB based on who the Browns are starting... well...

purplehelmut
11-06-2015, 10:37 AM
So, Bridgewater is successful because Manziel sucks? If we're judging our QB based on who the Browns are starting... well...

Never said Bridgewater is good because Manziel is bad. Only that Manziel is bad. No more, no less. If Bridgewater went 15 of 33 some on here would be calling for his ouster.

RK.
11-06-2015, 11:01 AM
How often do QB's throw the bomb 40 or 50 yds down the field in a normal game? 2,3 maybe 4 times unless they are in desperation time and trailing by 30 pts. I am happy with someone that can be accurate at 15 or 20 yrds and doesn't make stupid mistakes throwing into coverage.

midgensa
11-06-2015, 11:10 AM
How often do QB's throw the bomb 40 or 50 yds down the field in a normal game? 2,3 maybe 4 times unless they are in desperation time and trailing by 30 pts. I am happy with someone that can be accurate at 15 or 20 yrds and doesn't make stupid mistakes throwing into coverage.

We are not talking about the bomb. It matters ... but that is not the issue.

Bridgewater stats beyond 10 yards are not good. He does not throw accurately at 15 or 20 yards. He DOES tend to avoid stupid mistakes (though his interceptions against Kansas City and against Chicago both were terrible terrible mistakes). He just is not a threat to make good passes more than 10 yards down the field.

purplehelmut
11-06-2015, 11:11 AM
How often do QB's throw the bomb 40 or 50 yds down the field in a normal game? 2,3 maybe 4 times unless they are in desperation time and trailing by 30 pts. I am happy with someone that can be accurate at 15 or 20 yrds and doesn't make stupid mistakes throwing into coverage.

Thank you. Not sure what "blind homerism" is exactly. I support Bridgewater as our QB, but I've also pointed out the fact that he has to improve. I'm pretty sure he knows that and I'm pretty sure the coaching staff does as well. One thing I damn sure know- he is our QB right now and that's the bottom line. So until he completely screws it up, I'll support him. There is much to like and much to improve on. Like any young QB. I believe he will figure out the deep ball. But if he doesn't become the "Mad Bomber" he can still be effective in the position. And what exactly does "can't throw deep" mean? That he physically can't throw it? We've seen that is not the case. He can throw it far enough and accurately enough. He's done it before. Can't throw it deep because of a mental hangup? That can be overcome with experience. I'm confident that part of his game, which needs to improve, will improve. Why? Because it has to.

midgensa
11-06-2015, 11:16 AM
Never said Bridgewater is good because Manziel is bad. Only that Manziel is bad. No more, no less. If Bridgewater went 15 of 33 some on here would be calling for his ouster.

And here you are focusing on the 15 for 33.

I already posted that, statistically, Manziel was better in the this game (or at least as good) as Bridgewater was against San Diego and Kansas City. Manziel, on the road, on a short week, against a good defense, was as good as Bridgewater was AT HOME, against an average and bad team.

Manziel looked good for a half last night ... then the game got of hand and he got teed off on.

And ... all of that aside ... again ... when Bridgewater looks as crappy as Manziel did last night we have to hear 100 excuses why it wasn't his fault.

Bridgewater will struggle against the Rams. He will be average/good against the Raiders. He will struggle against Packers. He will be average against the Falcons. The Seahawks will make him look TERRIBLE, as will the Cardinals.

He has played garbage all year and put up average numbers at best. Five of the Seven games we have played are in the bottom half of the league in pass defense (three in the BOTTOM SIX). These teams are so bad at defending the pass that Brdigewater putting up lower numbers than other QBs against them has not lifted them from the depths. He has played terrible pass defenses and still does not have good numbers. I have plenty of evidence to think when the opponents stop being garbage he is going to have a tough time.

tarkenton10
11-06-2015, 11:44 AM
Don't worry. You are not aloud to question Bridgewater around here without being called crazy. He is clearly one of the best QBs in the league. You cannot even think Derek Carr and his VASTLY superior numbers are better without being told how crazy you are.

That said, I don't think that Heinicke is an NFL-caliber player, but he DEFINITELY outperformed his scouting report in the preseason. I would not mind seeing more of him at all. And he could possibly be a future backup.

Many fans saw TB's success at the end of last year and just assume that the next year the progress will go straight up. The sophomore year for most players are the toughest year. Teams now have film of TB and can game plan for him, they saw the success last year also. So now they are going to do things to try to make TB uncomfortable in the pocket. Now TB has to adjust and learn and recognize more as defenses become more determined to change his drop back point, try to change his release point.

QB s usually don't just get it all at once, you progress, defenses adjust, you struggle, you progress. i thought TB would have a tough year compared to his stats at the end of last year. I still think he will be a good QB, I am not convinced he will be a Pro bowler though (I hope I am wrong).

purplehelmut
11-06-2015, 12:15 PM
Wow, Midge can predict the future. Go ahead and pull out Bridgewater's two worst games, SD and KC. But his completion percentage in those games of 54.2 and 54.8 is damn sure better than 45%. And simply disregard his good games. I can't predict (like ol' Midge can) what the future will bring, but I'd put my money on Johnny Football being irrelevant way before Bridgewater ever is.

tarkenton10
11-06-2015, 01:02 PM
Wow, Midge can predict the future. Go ahead and pull out Bridgewater's two worst games, SD and KC. But his completion percentage in those games of 54.2 and 54.8 is damn sure better than 45%. And simply disregard his good games. I can't predict (like ol' Midge can) what the future will bring, but I'd put my money on Johnny Football being irrelevant way before Bridgewater ever is.

That is not an earth shaking bet. ;)

midgensa
11-06-2015, 03:22 PM
Wow, Midge can predict the future. Go ahead and pull out Bridgewater's two worst games, SD and KC. But his completion percentage in those games of 54.2 and 54.8 is damn sure better than 45%. And simply disregard his good games. I can't predict (like ol' Midge can) what the future will bring, but I'd put my money on Johnny Football being irrelevant way before Bridgewater ever is.

YOU BROUGHT UP HIS WORST GAMES!!

YOU said that if he had any games like that people would be calling for his ouster. Nobody called for his ouster after those awful games. So, predictions aside, you are again just spouting inaccuracies.

A completion percentage of 54.2% with no TDs and a turnover against one of the worst defenses in the league? That is worse than 45% with a TD and no turnovers against one of the better teams. You can try to spin it however you like. You took Manziel's worst game and tried to prove a point with it. My point is his worst game was not as bad as Teddy's. I am correct.

You can keep slicing it how you like. You can keep making "bets" about how good people are or aren't. The ENTIRE point of the discussion is predicting the future. Unless you are good with a 85 rating QB forever, because I certainly am not.

Get worked up ... come running on here with your "HA, look at Manziel" posts when he does bad like that proves ANYTHING about Teddy's complete lack of being able to make things happen. That is fine. I hope you get to say, "I told you so" because that is the only chance for Vikings success in the next three years.

rockymtdan
11-07-2015, 02:50 PM
And here you are focusing on the 15 for 33.

I already posted that, statistically, Manziel was better in the this game (or at least as good) as Bridgewater was against San Diego and Kansas City. Manziel, on the road, on a short week, against a good defense, was as good as Bridgewater was AT HOME, against an average and bad team.

Manziel looked good for a half last night ... then the game got of hand and he got teed off on.

And ... all of that aside ... again ... when Bridgewater looks as crappy as Manziel did last night we have to hear 100 excuses why it wasn't his fault.

Bridgewater will struggle against the Rams. He will be average/good against the Raiders. He will struggle against Packers. He will be average against the Falcons. The Seahawks will make him look TERRIBLE, as will the Cardinals.

He has played garbage all year and put up average numbers at best. Five of the Seven games we have played are in the bottom half of the league in pass defense (three in the BOTTOM SIX). These teams are so bad at defending the pass that Brdigewater putting up lower numbers than other QBs against them has not lifted them from the depths. He has played terrible pass defenses and still does not have good numbers. I have plenty of evidence to think when the opponents stop being garbage he is going to have a tough time.

Sadly I agree. But he does seem to do better in clutch situations late in the game. You dont have to point out the CJ jump pass against the Bears, that's not the norm. I remember late last season how optimistic I had become that this team was still in it with time running out. Somehow I feel he will play up to the competition. I still have faith in Teddy. Skol!!!!!

midgensa
11-07-2015, 08:34 PM
Sadly I agree. But he does seem to do better in clutch situations late in the game. You dont have to point out the CJ jump pass against the Bears, that's not the norm. I remember late last season how optimistic I had become that this team was still in it with time running out. Somehow I feel he will play up to the competition. I still have faith in Teddy. Skol!!!!!

I still have faith in him also. I love that I think he can go the length of the field and tie us a game or win us a game. I hate that the rest of the game he can't be that good. I think it is a head case kind of thing.

Nice thing is that he is young. Head case shit can go away as long as he keeps finding ways to win late. But they can cripple him for good if he hits a string of terrible games where he can't dig out.

I have seen him make the throws. On time, with velocity. That is something that was not true of Ponder (never on-time and no velocity) or T-Jack (rarely on-time, too much velocity). So, I know he CAN do it. I just am wondering why he isn't doing it more consistently.

I can live with the 40+ passes being few and far between. But if he can't hit from 10-20 regularly, he is going to struggle to make the leap.

MaxVike
11-07-2015, 10:25 PM
I like Teddy, but, IMHO he's a Tier 2 QB at best for his career. That said, the Vikes' defense, if it develops into a top 5 (I think it will either this year or next), can, with Teddy, take us far in the future. This year, no, close, but not quite there.

In the end...Teddy is not, IMHO, ever going to be a TD pass machine. He is more of a competitor/winner type, which, is not at all bad.

midgensa
11-08-2015, 07:27 PM
For all you Manziel fans out there- 15 of 33. 15 of 33 for crying out loud. I'm no rocket surgeon but that is less than a 50% completion rate. Around 45% or so. In a dumbed down offense. I'd love to hear the hue and cry if Bridgewater had an outing as futile. Manziel will soon be joining Tebow and RG3 as another failed experiment.

BTW ... Bridgewater just had a outing that futile and I am not calling for his ouster. But that is two bad games in a row.

Minniman
11-09-2015, 10:24 AM
I am on record stating that I thought Carr was the target for the 2014 draft. Pre-draft, I liked Carr better than Bridgewater or Bortles, and I thought Manziel looked like a less capable copy of Doug Flutie.

I docked Bortles for inconsistent deep throws in college, but in the NFL, Bridgewater has been inconsistent at best with those throws. Maybe I should have taken Bridgewater's pro-day difficulties more seriously.

purplehelmut
11-09-2015, 10:34 AM
BTW ... Bridgewater just had a outing that futile and I am not calling for his ouster. But that is two bad games in a row.

61.9% is greater than 45%. Simple math. That said, I was disappointed in a few of the misses. Bridgewater has to get better and the offense has to generate some points or this 6-2 will be wasted. Let's not forget, we're 6-2 with him at the helm and we haven't been 6-2 for a good while. I like to win.

C Mac D
11-09-2015, 11:39 AM
As much as I want to hate on Bridgewater's past couple games, we're on a 4 game winning streak... tough to complain.

tarkenton10
11-09-2015, 11:55 AM
As much as I want to hate on Bridgewater's past couple games, we're on a 4 game winning streak... tough to complain.

Usually not for you!! ;)

midgensa
11-09-2015, 12:53 PM
61.9% is greater than 45%. Simple math. That said, I was disappointed in a few of the misses. Bridgewater has to get better and the offense has to generate some points or this 6-2 will be wasted. Let's not forget, we're 6-2 with him at the helm and we haven't been 6-2 for a good while. I like to win.

OK ... only thing we measure QBs by now is completion percentage? Ridiculous! 1 Interception is MUCH worse than none. 1 TD is a lot more than NONE. 168 yards is more than 144. And a 71.3 rating is better than 62.4.

Definitely just as futile.

And to all the people saying, "I like to win." Who doesn't? I guess being 6-2 against mostly sub-par competition is plenty of reason to just say, "All is well." Remember, we were 8-4 with T-Jack in 2007 and went to the playoffs in 2008, so people wanted to keep him around. It set us back. We were 10-6 and in the playoffs with Christian Ponder after a fairly OK sophomore season, so people kept ignoring his obvious flaws.

All this aside. I DEFINITELY think Teddy is better than both of those guys. I CERTAINLY want him starting over Shaun Hill.

The problem here is that people were talking the 25-and-under class of QBs in the league. I got jumped on for saying I think he is weaker than Bortles, Winston, Mariota and Carr. Those guys ABSOLUTELY keep proving me correct. You can make some arguments that they are maybe on the same level. But arguing that Bridgewater is ABSOLUTELY better than ANY of those guys (and you CAN throw Manziel in that discussion) is not backed up by any statistical measure. Hell, my original list had him ahead of Mariota, right now, I think that was a mistake.

All four of those guys (five if you count Manziel this season) have shown consistent improvement. Bridgewater has not. I would not trade Bridgewater straight up for Mariota or Manziel, but I would certainly consider it. And I absolutely WOULD trade him for Bortles, Carr or Winston right this second.

We are 6-2 with him at the helm. I am happy with that. My point, consistently, has been that we are likely 6-2 with any of those other guys at the helm as well.

tarkenton10
11-09-2015, 02:56 PM
OK ... only thing we measure QBs by now is completion percentage? Ridiculous! 1 Interception is MUCH worse than none. 1 TD is a lot more than NONE. 168 yards is more than 144. And a 71.3 rating is better than 62.4.

Definitely just as futile.

And to all the people saying, "I like to win." Who doesn't? I guess being 6-2 against mostly sub-par competition is plenty of reason to just say, "All is well." Remember, we were 8-4 with T-Jack in 2007 and went to the playoffs in 2008, so people wanted to keep him around. It set us back. We were 10-6 and in the playoffs with Christian Ponder after a fairly OK sophomore season, so people kept ignoring his obvious flaws.

All this aside. I DEFINITELY think Teddy is better than both of those guys. I CERTAINLY want him starting over Shaun Hill.

The problem here is that people were talking the 25-and-under class of QBs in the league. I got jumped on for saying I think he is weaker than Bortles, Winston, Mariota and Carr. Those guys ABSOLUTELY keep proving me correct. You can make some arguments that they are maybe on the same level. But arguing that Bridgewater is ABSOLUTELY better than ANY of those guys (and you CAN throw Manziel in that discussion) is not backed up by any statistical measure. Hell, my original list had him ahead of Mariota, right now, I think that was a mistake.

All four of those guys (five if you count Manziel this season) have shown consistent improvement. Bridgewater has not. I would not trade Bridgewater straight up for Mariota or Manziel, but I would certainly consider it. And I absolutely WOULD trade him for Bortles, Carr or Winston right this second.

We are 6-2 with him at the helm. I am happy with that. My point, consistently, has been that we are likely 6-2 with any of those other guys at the helm as well.

I am with you on that. Other than Bortles and Carr you could put those guy's names in a bag and come out with one and we would still be 6-2.

thejck
11-09-2015, 03:29 PM
so far he has not filled me with a lot of confidence regarding being able to win a game on his own. With each passing game I feel less about his capability. Part of me hopes he improves but then again I would rather not have a star QB and have the rest of the team suffer because of the money paid to him. So if he can become a serviceable QB and we are consistently able to put a great team on the field then so be in.

raptorman
11-09-2015, 11:05 PM
Ok, let's get something out of the way. Teddy's deep ball. All I hear is how bad he is and how good the other guys are. Let's break down this season's deep throws. This does not include week 8.

First, all Passes greater than 11 yards

Comp Atmp Yards Percent YPA
Mariotta 30 62 555 48.4% 9.0
Bridgewater 39 77 766 50.6% 9.9
Bortles 49 118 1113 41.5% 9.4
Carr 31 69 732 44.9% 10.6
Winston 47 85 941 55.3% 11.1


Next, Passes greater than 21 Yards

Comp Atmp Yards Percent YPA
Mariotta 3 18 88 16.7% 4.9
Bridgewater 6 22 205 27.3% 9.3
Bortles 13 41 460 31.7% 11.2
Carr 7 21 278 33.3% 13.2
Winston 8 20 237 40.0% 11.9


So, is Teddy really that far off on his deep ball numbers from other young QB's? Not really.

C Mac D
11-10-2015, 09:35 AM
Ok, let's get something out of the way. Teddy's deep ball. All I hear is how bad he is and how good the other guys are. Let's break down this season's deep throws. This does not include week 8.

First, all Passes greater than 11 yards

Comp Atmp Yards Percent YPA
Mariotta 30 62 555 48.4% 9.0
Bridgewater 39 77 766 50.6% 9.9
Bortles 49 118 1113 41.5% 9.4
Carr 31 69 732 44.9% 10.6
Winston 47 85 941 55.3% 11.1


Next, Passes greater than 21 Yards

Comp Atmp Yards Percent YPA
Mariotta 3 18 88 16.7% 4.9
Bridgewater 6 22 205 27.3% 9.3
Bortles 13 41 460 31.7% 11.2
Carr 7 21 278 33.3% 13.2
Winston 8 20 237 40.0% 11.9


So, is Teddy really that far off on his deep ball numbers from other young QB's? Not really.

That tells me he IS pretty far off on his deep ball compared to other young QBs. Just because Mariotta and Bortles also struggle with the deep ball doesn't mean we should be content with Bridgewater's weaknesses as a QB. It simply means all three struggle. Carr and Winston are obviously better at the deep ball.

purplehelmut
11-10-2015, 09:42 AM
Yeah, 8 of 20 and 7 of 21 are light years ahead of 6 for 22.

midgensa
11-10-2015, 10:02 AM
Ok, let's get something out of the way. Teddy's deep ball. All I hear is how bad he is and how good the other guys are. Let's break down this season's deep throws. This does not include week 8.

First, all Passes greater than 11 yards

Comp Atmp Yards Percent YPA
Mariotta 30 62 555 48.4% 9.0
Bridgewater 39 77 766 50.6% 9.9
Bortles 49 118 1113 41.5% 9.4
Carr 31 69 732 44.9% 10.6
Winston 47 85 941 55.3% 11.1


Next, Passes greater than 21 Yards

Comp Atmp Yards Percent YPA
Mariotta 3 18 88 16.7% 4.9
Bridgewater 6 22 205 27.3% 9.3
Bortles 13 41 460 31.7% 11.2
Carr 7 21 278 33.3% 13.2
Winston 8 20 237 40.0% 11.9


So, is Teddy really that far off on his deep ball numbers from other young QB's? Not really.

Those numbers clearly show that Winston and Carr are better at the deep ball. They also show, at best, Bortles is about the same as Bridgewater.

Mariota obviously struggles with the deep ball, which everyone knew he would. BUT, his underneath passing is so precise that guys catch the ball WHILE moving. He is also EXCEPTIONAL in the red zone, with 13 TDs to show for it despite playing only six games.

And there is simply the eye test. WATCH Carr and Winston throw deep balls and watch Bridgewater. It is clear cut. Watch Bortles wing it and it is fairly clear he has more arm talent than Bridgewater also.

Arm talent is not everything. I fully admit that in these discussions. The thing is, Bridgewater has shown NO growth. None. Winston has shown immense growth just this season. Bortles, Carr and Manziel have shown growth from last year. And Mariota 4 good starts in just six games, including two spectacular starts.

Winston and Carr look VERY good right now. Bortles looked good early, but has slipped. I stated from the beginning that I would take Carr and Winston ahead of Bridgewater, and there is absolutely NOTHING that has shown I should reconsider that. I would still take Bortles over him as well.

From the get go, I was wishy-washy on Mariota. But, I think Mariota in the right offense will be much more productive than Bridgewater in any offense. Mariota in the wrong offense will be terrible though.

Bridgewater appears he will ALWAYS be Bridgewater. 3,500-3800 yds, 18-22 TDs, 11-16 INTs, 63-67%, 7.2-7.5 YPA, 81-88.5 Rating.

That is likely his ceilings and lows. Those ceilings are workable. With the right team around him those can win. They are certainly better than T-Jack and Ponder. But they will not likely be better than the ceiling on Winston, Bortles, Carr or Mariota.

raptorman
11-10-2015, 01:18 PM
So I decided that we needed some other QB's to compare these young guys too.

First, all Passes greater than 11 yards

Comp Atmp Yards Percent YPA
Mariotta 30 62 555 48.4% 9.0
Bridgewater 39 77 766 50.6% 9.9
Bortles 49 118 1113 41.5% 9.4
Carr 31 69 732 44.9% 10.6
Winston 47 85 941 55.3% 11.1


Next, Passes greater than 21 Yards

Comp Atmp Yards Percent YPA
Mariotta 3 18 88 16.7% 4.9
Bridgewater 6 22 205 27.3% 9.3
Bortles 13 41 460 31.7% 11.2
Carr 7 21 278 33.3% 13.2
Winston 8 20 237 40.0% 11.9

First, all Passes greater than 11 yards

Comp Atmp Yards Percent YPA
Palmer 70 121 1385 57.9% 11.4
Dalton 40 75 1040 53.5% 13.9
Rodgers 29 62 669 46.8% 10.8
Brady 39 68 976 57.4% 14.4

Next, Passes greater than 21 Yards

Comp Atmp Yards Percent YPA
Palmer 3 18 88 16.7% 4.9
Dalton 14 29 549 48.3% 18.9
Rodgers 6 21 199 28.6% 9.5
Brady 10 22 315 45.5% 14.3

purplehelmut
11-10-2015, 01:38 PM
I had to look it up. Another dubious record for the Vikings I was unaware of. Most Playoff Losses- 27. I've been around for every one of them.

MaxVike
11-10-2015, 02:00 PM
I had to look it up. Another dubious record for the Vikings I was unaware of. Most Playoff Losses- 27. I've been around for every one of them.

Me too Helmut, me too:beatupchickensmall:

Leafman
11-10-2015, 02:20 PM
I had to look it up. Another dubious record for the Vikings I was unaware of. Most Playoff Losses- 27. I've been around for every one of them.

Well, yeah ... the team is ranked #2 of all NFL teams in playoff appearances in the Super Bowl era, but has never won a Super Bowl. So yeah, of course they will have the most playoff losses.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

purplehelmut
11-10-2015, 02:24 PM
For all you Bridgewater haters- let's recall some of the signal callers we have employed over the years. Lee, Berry, Cuozzo, Dils, Snead, Wilson, Salisbury, Gannon, Johnson, Frerotte, Holcomb, Bollinger, Jackson, Ponder, Freeman, Cassel, Webb, Bouman, Wynn, and George to name a few less than stellar signal callers. Then throw in the retreads we love to get that may or may not have done us any good- Moon, Cunningham, and Favre (who did) and McNabb, Manning, and McMahon (who did not). Culpepper, whom we drafted, had a few good years. Fran Tarkenton is the only true franchise QB we've ever had. Moon, Cunningham, and Favre gave us a couple good years, but they we all toward the end of their careers. So before we get too down on Bridgewater, let's go back and take stock of what we've had before. Compared to that, he doesn't look too bad at all.

Leafman
11-10-2015, 02:37 PM
I would put Joe Kapp, Brad Johnson and Tommy Kramer in the Moon, Cunningham and Favre group as well. Though none were "franchise QBs" by today's definition, they were decent, starting caliber NFL QBs, especially for eras when downfield passing was very difficult due to very defense-friendly rules.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

purplehelmut
11-10-2015, 03:01 PM
Kapp and Kramer weren't mentioned because they were good quarterbacks for the Vikings and we had them during their primes. I never thought much of Johnson but you could argue he belongs on the "good" list. Maybe. As far as I'm concerned, the only good QBs we've ever had that weren't retreads at the end of their careers are Tarkenton, Kapp, Kramer, and Culpepper. Pretty short list. Joe Kapp was one good, tough QB. Tarkenton was great and should have had a ring.

midgensa
11-10-2015, 05:31 PM
For all you Bridgewater haters- let's recall some of the signal callers we have employed over the years. Lee, Berry, Cuozzo, Dils, Snead, Wilson, Salisbury, Gannon, Johnson, Frerotte, Holcomb, Bollinger, Jackson, Ponder, Freeman, Cassel, Webb, Bouman, Wynn, and George to name a few less than stellar signal callers. Then throw in the retreads we love to get that may or may not have done us any good- Moon, Cunningham, and Favre (who did) and McNabb, Manning, and McMahon (who did not). Culpepper, whom we drafted, had a few good years. Fran Tarkenton is the only true franchise QB we've ever had. Moon, Cunningham, and Favre gave us a couple good years, but they we all toward the end of their careers. So before we get too down on Bridgewater, let's go back and take stock of what we've had before. Compared to that, he doesn't look too bad at all.

First ... I am not a Bridgewater hater. I have simply stated that I would take at least two of the other Under 25 QBs ahead of him and consistently pointed out, statistically, why I would do so.

Second ... I have regularly said, he is better than T-Jack and Ponder which is important and nice to have.

Third ... Really? Well, we have had bad QBs before, so average is good enough! That is the mentality of loser teams. That is th mentality of teams that don't get over the hump because they are not trying to improve. What we have had is not an excuse for not getting better. If Bridgewater is still an 85 rating QB halfway through next year ... we need to be ready to move on.

Fourth ... Bridgewater is not yet a franchise QB.

C Mac D
11-10-2015, 05:45 PM
Yeah, 8 of 20 and 7 of 21 are light years ahead of 6 for 22.

When we're talking about plays of 20+ yards, 8 of 20 is much better than 6 of 22... that's 40+ additional yards per game. Stop looking strictly at the stats and think about it from an in-game perspective. You can sugarcoat it any way you want though. I guess comparing him to rookies and being content with no progress in his sophomore season is a nice way to do that.

purplehelmut
11-11-2015, 09:50 AM
Wrong. Those are season totals, after 7 games if I recall correctly. Two additional completions of 20+ over 7 games. That is not 40+ yards per game, it is about 5.7 yards per game. Which is noise and not a factor. And hell yes, after the futility we've seen from the QB position I'll take a solid starter at this point. You guys keep hating on Bridgewater. I'm not the only one who thinks he'll be ok. Zimmer and Turner seem to think he'll be ok, and they know more about the situation than we do. In Zim I trust.

midgensa
11-11-2015, 11:32 AM
Wrong. Those are season totals, after 7 games if I recall correctly. Two additional completions of 20+ over 7 games. That is not 40+ yards per game, it is about 5.7 yards per game. Which is noise and not a factor. And hell yes, after the futility we've seen from the QB position I'll take a solid starter at this point. You guys keep hating on Bridgewater. I'm not the only one who thinks he'll be ok. Zimmer and Turner seem to think he'll be ok, and they know more about the situation than we do. In Zim I trust.

Quickly ... lets address your lack of understanding numbers. 8-20 is a million times better than 6-22 in the kind of threat he is. And it is not just about those. It is about 45-99 vs. 55-105. One clearly can throw downfield and it opens everything else up.

Lets clear everything up on the yardage per game ...

10. Bortles, 274.1
14. Mariota, 266.3
18. Carr, 261.8
27. Winston, 237.1
32. Bridgewater, 208.8

That is terrible. Period. You can make all the excuses in the world. No. 1 - Our offensive line, blah blah blah. No. 2 - We don't pass, otherwise he would throw for 400+ per game, blah blah blah. No. 3 - The other teams pass soooooooooo much more. All the time. Passing. Passing. Passing. Blah blah blah.

Truth is ... everyone of those arguments is garbage. 208.8 yards in todays NFL is terrible. There is no discussion. There is no spin to try and make it better. There is nothing that can make it good. It is terrible.

Next. Plenty football people thought that T-Jack would be OK. Ponder would be OK. Culpepper would be OK without Moss. They were all wrong.

And what makes you think that Zimmer and Norv think he will be OK? Because they aren't starting Shaun Hill? What do you expect them to say ... I can see Zimmer at a Tuesday presser now:

"Yeah, our QB really cannot throw the ball more than 10 yards down the field. The scouting reports were correct. Everyone can see it. Scouts could see it. Other teams could see it. He slipped from No. 1 all the way to the second round had we not traded back in because everyone could see it. Ricky thought all of the other people were wrong. He is an idiot. Teddy is a hard worker but just cannot really command an offense because he is not a threat. But, hell, he is better than Shaun Hill."

OF COURSE they know more about the situation than I do. So does Brad Childress. But he is still an idiot in the context of managing a football team. They HAVE to say they have faith in Bridgewater. If he was hurt and Hill was the QB, we would be hearing all these great things about Shaun Hill.

"Zimmer and Turner seem to think he'll be OK." Seriously? Ridiculous.

tarkenton10
11-11-2015, 03:18 PM
Quickly ... lets address your lack of understanding numbers. 8-20 is a million times better than 6-22 in the kind of threat he is. And it is not just about those. It is about 45-99 vs. 55-105. One clearly can throw downfield and it opens everything else up.

Lets clear everything up on the yardage per game ...

10. Bortles, 274.1
14. Mariota, 266.3
18. Carr, 261.8
27. Winston, 237.1
32. Bridgewater, 208.8

That is terrible. Period. You can make all the excuses in the world. No. 1 - Our offensive line, blah blah blah. No. 2 - We don't pass, otherwise he would throw for 400+ per game, blah blah blah. No. 3 - The other teams pass soooooooooo much more. All the time. Passing. Passing. Passing. Blah blah blah.

Truth is ... everyone of those arguments is garbage. 208.8 yards in todays NFL is terrible. There is no discussion. There is no spin to try and make it better. There is nothing that can make it good. It is terrible.

Next. Plenty football people thought that T-Jack would be OK. Ponder would be OK. Culpepper would be OK without Moss. They were all wrong.

And what makes you think that Zimmer and Norv think he will be OK? Because they aren't starting Shaun Hill? What do you expect them to say ... I can see Zimmer at a Tuesday presser now:

"Yeah, our QB really cannot throw the ball more than 10 yards down the field. The scouting reports were correct. Everyone can see it. Scouts could see it. Other teams could see it. He slipped from No. 1 all the way to the second round had we not traded back in because everyone could see it. Ricky thought all of the other people were wrong. He is an idiot. Teddy is a hard worker but just cannot really command an offense because he is not a threat. But, hell, he is better than Shaun Hill."

OF COURSE they know more about the situation than I do. So does Brad Childress. But he is still an idiot in the context of managing a football team. They HAVE to say they have faith in Bridgewater. If he was hurt and Hill was the QB, we would be hearing all these great things about Shaun Hill.

"Zimmer and Turner seem to think he'll be OK." Seriously? Ridiculous.

IMO simply put most are happy with TB but seeing what he could actually do, if there was a redo most would go with Carr. You can't change and get Bortles, he was already gone.

midgensa
11-11-2015, 03:40 PM
IMO simply put most are happy with TB but seeing what he could actually do, if there was a redo most would go with Carr. You can't change and get Bortles, he was already gone.

Nobody is saying we should have gotten any of the the other guys. The discussion isn't whether we screwed up.

The discussion is NFL Pundits Debate .... and in the first post it discusses Under-25 QBs. There are only six that can even be in the discussion.

I know we could not have gotten any of these except for Bridgewater and/or Carr. I don't even think getting Bridgewater was wrong really.

I am simply stating who I think is the best Under-25 QBs in the league and giving as much statistical proof as I can to back it up.

purplehelmut
11-12-2015, 09:31 AM
8 of 22 is a million times better than 6 of 22 is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. And I never said Bridgewater was better than Carr. My argument is that he is a starting caliber NFL QB who will get better. So the extrapolation of the deep numbers is once again meaningless. The assumption is he won't improve those numbers. I think he will. And I'm not sure Childress knew much about anything. To compare him with Zimmer is, once again, ridiculous. For the record, I've been saying that Bridgewater needs to get better and that we need more production offensively. Detractors focus on the past, I'm looking toward the future. I think the potential is there for the QB we have to be productive and to win ballgames.

tarkenton10
11-12-2015, 10:28 AM
Nobody is saying we should have gotten any of the the other guys. The discussion isn't whether we screwed up.

The discussion is NFL Pundits Debate .... and in the first post it discusses Under-25 QBs. There are only six that can even be in the discussion.

I know we could not have gotten any of these except for Bridgewater and/or Carr. I don't even think getting Bridgewater was wrong really.

I am simply stating who I think is the best Under-25 QBs in the league and giving as much statistical proof as I can to back it up.

Yes, you have proof but there is also the eye test, so if we are just rating them. I would take Carr, first then a close second Bortles, Bridgewater, Winston, Mariota, and Manziel IMO.

midgensa
11-12-2015, 11:22 AM
Yes, you have proof but there is also the eye test, so if we are just rating them. I would take Carr, first then a close second Bortles, Bridgewater, Winston, Mariota, and Manziel IMO.

At least you concede on the "proof" :p

As for the eye test. I can't see using the eye test and coming away with ANYONE at No. 1 other than Winston. He is posed. Can rip it. Is technically sound. Is on time. Is fearless.

I am curious what you see in the eye test that makes you like Teddy better than Winston?

Oddly enough ... with the eye test ... I think all six of these guys look fairly comfortable under center.

midgensa
11-12-2015, 11:58 AM
8 of 22 is a million times better than 6 of 22 is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. And I never said Bridgewater was better than Carr. My argument is that he is a starting caliber NFL QB who will get better. So the extrapolation of the deep numbers is once again meaningless. The assumption is he won't improve those numbers. I think he will. And I'm not sure Childress knew much about anything. To compare him with Zimmer is, once again, ridiculous. For the record, I've been saying that Bridgewater needs to get better and that we need more production offensively. Detractors focus on the past, I'm looking toward the future. I think the potential is there for the QB we have to be productive and to win ballgames.

1. I didn't compare Zimmer to Childress. I mentioned that you said you trust them and indicated that because they are professionals none of our opinions matter. That IS ridiculous. I trust Zimmer too, but that certainly does not mean I cannot call him out for mistakes. I also pointed out the fact that it is ridiculous for you to assert they have confidence in him because they have said so in public. What would you expect them to say? At least yesterday some of what you say there started to crack as Zimmer stated publicly that they need more out of the passing game.

2. It is 8 of 20, not 8-22. And yes, 8-20 is a million times better than 6-22. In statistic based sports the difference between 40% and 27% is absolutely massive. It lets the other team know right away the threat level of a deep pass. So, yes, it is a HUGE difference. Just like a 65% completion percentage is a huge difference over a 58%. One of the points I have consistently made here is that it is NOT just about one stat. It is about ALL of them. Bridgewater does not excel over these other guys in ANY statistic, but he is woefully behind in a handful of them.

The PAST is indicative of the future. That is why it gets analyzed. Otherwise, why the hell shouldn't we start Shaun Hill? I am going to stop being a detractor and focusing on the past and look to the future. His past shouldn't matter. Lets start him!

Just for S&G BTW ...

Shaun Hill per start
19.9/32.3, 217.4 yards, 1.32 TDs, 1.17 INTs, 61.6%, 6.7 YPA, 80.5 rating

Teddy Bridgewater per start
19.8/30.7, 221.9, 1.0 TDs, .9 INTs, 64.5%, 7.23 YPA, 84.8 rating

I think we can all agree, slightly better than Shaun Hill is not good enough.

thejck
11-12-2015, 12:17 PM
i guess its always nice to have a star QB after what we have had to deal with. But in the long run I would rather have someone who has dedication to his profession and comes along slowly.

Rodgers is a great QB but all we ever here about the packers is Rodgers. I prefer this team mentality. We have stars spread all around our team. I hope we never need a start QB like Rodgers or Carr or Bortles to win games because we always put a great "team" on the field.

And its the team that brings us home..

C Mac D
11-12-2015, 02:07 PM
i guess its always nice to have a star QB after what we have had to deal with. But in the long run I would rather have someone who has dedication to his profession and comes along slowly.

Rodgers is a great QB but all we ever here about the packers is Rodgers. I prefer this team mentality. We have stars spread all around our team. I hope we never need a start QB like Rodgers or Carr or Bortles to win games because we always put a great "team" on the field.

And its the team that brings us home..

This post hurt my brain to read... please just stop.

C Mac D
11-12-2015, 02:09 PM
8 of 22 is a million times better than 6 of 22 is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen.

Who said "a million times" because it wasn't me.

Also, it's 8 of 20 compared to 6 of 22... which is better. There's really no arguing that.

midgensa
11-12-2015, 03:18 PM
Who said "a million times" because it wasn't me.

Also, it's 8 of 20 compared to 6 of 22... which is better. There's really no arguing that.

I said a million times ... and while I was exaggerating mathematically ... I still stand by it. One is a threat (40%) and one is not (27%)

And yes it is a lot better.

As for the previous post that you responded to ...

I would rather have our team with an average QB than Aaron Rodgers and the Packers? The 2010 Super Bowl Champion Aaron Rodgers. The TWO time MVP Aaron Rodgers. The best QB in the game for the last three or four years Aaron Rodgers.

One of the most idiotic statements I have ever read on here. There are not TWO players on this team that would not be worth trading for Aaron Rodgers.

AND ALL THAT ASIDE ... that has nothing to do with this thread. This thread is the best Under-25 QBs today. Aaron Rodgers is not in the discussion.

Leafman
11-12-2015, 03:47 PM
As a pure passer, I'd take Carr ... he does have better mechanics and better downfield accuracy at this stage of their careers.

But if I was picking a guy to be my franchise QB, I'll side with Brooks and Taylor and take Teddy. He has shown me he is the complete package and does the most important things you need an NFL QB to do to win very well ... maintains great situational awareness, identifies audible opportunities extremely well, handles and avoids pressure like an established veteran, is highly mobile and great pocket awareness, is making steady improvement in reads and progressions, usually errs on the conservative side of his decision-making which typically gives the team opportunities to win rather than costing them victories with bad mistakes, he steps up when needed and produces late in games .... these are the qualities I want in my team's leader, and he has them all.

Of course I love his completion percentage, his QBR, his %age of starts per 300-yard game, and his avg yards per attempt, but the stats are secondary to everything else he brings to the field.

Can't wait to watch both of them this Sunday, assuming Teddy is good to go ... these two will be surging towards the top of the NFL QB pile over the next few years and be fixtures at the position thereafter.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

purplehelmut
11-12-2015, 04:18 PM
Who said "a million times" because it wasn't me.

Also, it's 8 of 20 compared to 6 of 22... which is better. There's really no arguing that.

Sweet Jerri Christmas! Of course it's "better". My point is a pass or two either way and the stat is even or damn close. Like arguing with a freakin' fencepost.

Minniman
11-13-2015, 12:04 AM
But if I was picking a guy to be my franchise QB, I'll side with Brooks and Taylor and take Teddy. He has shown me he is the complete package and does the most important things you need an NFL QB to do to win very well ... Of course I love his completion percentage, his QBR, his %age of starts per 300-yard game, and his avg yards per attempt, but the stats are secondary to everything else he brings to the field.

Teddy's completion percentage is aided by check downs that have little chance of obtaining a first down on third and long. I would rather see a few more attempts throwing to receivers who are already beyond the line of scrimmage.

Minniman
11-13-2015, 12:11 AM
As much as I want to hate on Bridgewater's past couple games, we're on a 4 game winning streak... tough to complain.

The Vikings are winning with defense.

The passing offense is not even close to being NFL average.

tarkenton10
11-13-2015, 08:14 AM
At least you concede on the "proof" :p

As for the eye test. I can't see using the eye test and coming away with ANYONE at No. 1 other than Winston. He is posed. Can rip it. Is technically sound. Is on time. Is fearless.

I am curious what you see in the eye test that makes you like Teddy better than Winston?

Oddly enough ... with the eye test ... I think all six of these guys look fairly comfortable under center.

I don't know what you mean by that since I never disputed you had proof so how can I concede a point I never argued over? Anyway, I feel the same way about Winston that I felt about TB last year. A rookie like RGIII can look great but once you get tape on them and find a chink in the armor how do they perform? If Winston can perform at the same level next year then I would be open to rethinking my order.

Leafman
11-13-2015, 12:48 PM
Teddy's completion percentage is aided by check downs that have little chance of obtaining a first down on third and long.

That's true, but that's true for most, if not all, NFL Quarterbacks. I assume you have data that clearly demonstrates Teddy's high completion rate on 3rd down checkdowns is X% higher than the NFL average, which is inflating his completion percentage versus the NFL average total completion percentage by Y%? I would love to see that breakdown.

What I see is that Teddy's adjusted yards per attempt by down goes UP by down:
1st - 5.95
2nd - 6.34
3rd - 7.72

And that with 3rd down and between 4-9 yards to go, Teddy's adjusted yards per attempt is above 9.3! The checkdowns are happening on 3rd & 10 or longer, where he has a 72% completion percentage and adjusted yards per attempt of 5.8.

Carr on 3rd & 10+ yards to go? 65.3% completion percentage and 4.8 adjusted yards per attempt ... a full yard lower than Teddy. In those situations, they have 57 and 75 attempts respectively, meaning if we take your hypothesis of higher checkdown rate, it means Teddy has had a total of 4-5 checkdown completions over 21 games where Carr threw a deeper incompletion on 4-5 similar 3rd down plays over his 24 games, and Teddy's checkdowns averaged about 10-12 yards each, to explain the difference between his and Carr's numbers on 3rd & long.

Not exactly an indictment of Teddy's abilities vis--vis Carr...

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

VikingMike
11-14-2015, 10:26 AM
i guess its always nice to have a star QB after what we have had to deal with. But in the long run I would rather have someone who has dedication to his profession and comes along slowly.

Rodgers is a great QB but all we ever here about the packers is Rodgers. I prefer this team mentality. We have stars spread all around our team. I hope we never need a start QB like Rodgers or Carr or Bortles to win games because we always put a great "team" on the field.

And its the team that brings us home..


If given the choice, I'd rather have Rodgers.

VikingMike
11-14-2015, 10:39 AM
Sweet Jerri Christmas! Of course it's "better". My point is a pass or two either way and the stat is even or damn close. Like arguing with a freakin' fencepost.

I would tend to agree. Although 40% is much better than 27%, it's a small sampling and you can't accurately extrapolate this out very far. But when doing these comparisons, stats are all we have.

VikingMike
11-14-2015, 10:47 AM
That's true, but that's true for most, if not all, NFL Quarterbacks. I assume you have data that clearly demonstrates Teddy's high completion rate on 3rd down checkdowns is X% higher than the NFL average, which is inflating his completion percentage versus the NFL average total completion percentage by Y%? I would love to see that breakdown.

What I see is that Teddy's adjusted yards per attempt by down goes UP by down:
1st - 5.95
2nd - 6.34
3rd - 7.72

And that with 3rd down and between 4-9 yards to go, Teddy's adjusted yards per attempt is above 9.3! The checkdowns are happening on 3rd & 10 or longer, where he has a 72% completion percentage and adjusted yards per attempt of 5.8.

Carr on 3rd & 10+ yards to go? 65.3% completion percentage and 4.8 adjusted yards per attempt ... a full yard lower than Teddy. In those situations, they have 57 and 75 attempts respectively, meaning if we take your hypothesis of higher checkdown rate, it means Teddy has had a total of 4-5 checkdown completions over 21 games where Carr threw a deeper incompletion on 4-5 similar 3rd down plays over his 24 games, and Teddy's checkdowns averaged about 10-12 yards each, to explain the difference between his and Carr's numbers on 3rd & long.

Not exactly an indictment of Teddy's abilities vis--vis Carr...

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN


Some very interesting research and stats there. Nice job.

thorshammer
11-15-2015, 09:35 AM
I guess there are those who think the comparison isn't even close. Carr wins hands down. I do not agree. I like Teddy. I think he will be very good for us for quite some time. Teddy is a winner. I'd like to see him have a great game today.
http://www.mercurynews.com/raiders/ci_29118579/oakland-raiders-derek-carr-outperforming-vikings-qb-bridgewater

midgensa
11-15-2015, 10:52 AM
I guess there are those who think the comparison isn't even close. Carr wins hands down. I do not agree. I like Teddy. I think he will be very good for us for quite some time. Teddy is a winner. I'd like to see him have a great game today.
http://www.mercurynews.com/raiders/ci_29118579/oakland-raiders-derek-carr-outperforming-vikings-qb-bridgewater

The question is only about the future. RIGHT NOW ... Carr wins hands down. It is not debatable. It is not close. He is better with every single way you would measure a QB. He is better in the eye test and in the stats test. You can agree or disagree ... It does not matter. Carr is a better QB right now, and that is not even a debate.

The next question is the future. Is there reasons to think that Bridgewater will get better and catch up with Carr? I don't see it. The one big thing he has that will help him is the fact that the Vikings clearly have a more put together team that will be able to win more games. For some reason, QBs get measured on wins very heavily. Sure it is important, but it is not the end-all be-all. We won with Gus Frerotte and Tarvaris Jackson, that did not make them good QBs. The Ravens won a Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer, that did not mean they should leave him there for 5 more years.

Dan Fouts and Dan Marino are FAR superior QBs to Troy Aikman, Jim Plunkett, Trent Dilfer and Ben Roethlisberger. Somehow though, QBs get measured on wins, while offensive lineman (Willie Roaf, Anthony Munoz, Bruce Matthews) get measured on who is actually the better player.

I LIKE Teddy. I think he can improve to hopefully a regular 90+ rating. But to think he will ever be on par with Carr at this point seems off base. Could Carr come a bit down to Earth, sure, but even then Teddy has to get better by quite a bit to pull even. Teddy might win more games because his TEAM is so good. There is no doubt in my mind that we would be at least 6-2 right now with Derek Carr as our QB. There is absolutely no evidence or reason to think otherwise.

All this said ... I am happy with where Teddy is right now. I think we are in a good spot at QB, which is somewhere we have not been in a while. He looked GREAT at the end of the Chicago game and that was very promising. I think he can be a very solid QB. Just because I think some other QBs are better or are going to be better does not mean that I am unhappy with Teddy under center. I just don't think he is a "Top 10 Guy" and I think that these other Under-25s all could be.

snowinapril
11-15-2015, 02:22 PM
There are a lot of good looking young QBs.

The rookies, Winston and Mariota both holding their own.

Bortles, Carr and Bridgewater are all looking good. Heck even Manziel is looking ok.

They all have room to improve.

When it comes down to it, the first that wins in the playoffs is the best. I think they are partially products of their teams. By that I mean, when looking at Flacco, you see a reserved QB that can afford to play behind a defense that he has confidence in, a defense that will give him a chance to win.

I really like both Bortles and Carr. I am not going to play the I wish game we would have..... All I know is Coach Zim was encouraging Teddy to play looser, like he does at the end of the game for the entire game. When that happens, I hope it is impressive.

midgensa
11-15-2015, 07:22 PM
There are a lot of good looking young QBs.

The rookies, Winston and Mariota both holding their own.

Bortles, Carr and Bridgewater are all looking good. Heck even Manziel is looking ok.

They all have room to improve.

When it comes down to it, the first that wins in the playoffs is the best. I think they are partially products of their teams. By that I mean, when looking at Flacco, you see a reserved QB that can afford to play behind a defense that he has confidence in, a defense that will give him a chance to win.

I really like both Bortles and Carr. I am not going to play the I wish game we would have..... All I know is Coach Zim was encouraging Teddy to play looser, like he does at the end of the game for the entire game. When that happens, I hope it is impressive.

The first that wins in the playoffs is a little silly. I mean ... NONE of those other guys have the Vikings team. It is obvious that Teddy is going to have the first shot at winning in the playoffs. None of the others are in playoff spots right now and really don't have very realistic chances at making it.

Teddy is solid. But if Carr rolls out 4200 yards, 35 TDs and a 100 passer rating, it does not matter if Teddy wins in the playoffs, Carr is the better QB.

Dilfer won a damn Super Bowl. Plunkett won two. They are not better than Peyton Manning, Dan Marion, Brett Favre, Dan Fouts.

And Flacco sucks too. The difference in him and GAME MANAGERS is that he can absolutely sling it, so if he gets hot (like he did in 2011) he can be very good for a few games. Though describing him as a "reserved" QB is waaaay off. He likes to fling it.

Leafman
11-15-2015, 07:42 PM
The question is only about the future. RIGHT NOW ... Carr wins hands down. It is not debatable. It is not close. He is better with every single way you would measure a QB. He is better in the eye test and in the stats test. You can agree or disagree ... It does not matter. Carr is a better QB right now, and that is not even a debate.

It most certainly is a debate, because I disagree with every. single. thing you wrote in that paragraph. It might not be debatable in your own mind, but don't speak for the rest of us.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

thorshammer
11-15-2015, 09:14 PM
Passing
Minnesota
Comp Att Yds Pct Y/A Sack YdsL TD Int QBRat FL
Teddy Bridgewater
14 22 140 63.6 6.4 4 18 1 0 96.8 0
Oakland
Comp Att Yds Pct Y/A Sack YdsL TD Int QBRat FL
Derek Carr
29 43 302 67.4 7.0 2 15 2 2 83.7 0

Teddy had the better QB rating for this game. Carr threw it twice as many times so he had a little more than twice as many yards. I would bet if Teddy threw it twice as many times he would have had more yards also. Not sure that Carr is that much better. He just has to throw a lot more. They are a passing team. We are more balanced.

Leafman
11-15-2015, 09:54 PM
Teddy had the better QB rating for this game. Carr threw it twice as many times so he had a little more than twice as many yards. I would bet if Teddy threw it twice as many times he would have had more yards also. Not sure that Carr is that much better. He just has to throw a lot more. They are a passing team. We are more balanced.

As I posted previously, it's about risk/reward. Carr has to make more downfield throws because his defense isn't as good. That means he'll get more yards and TDs, but also means he's gonna make some bad mistakes. Carr cost his team a win today with that late throw to the end zone. And that's why the Raiders are aub-.500 and the Vikings are 7-2 atop the division. Carr may be the better passer, but I'll take Teddy as my quarterback.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

snowinapril
11-15-2015, 10:47 PM
The first that wins in the playoffs is a little silly. I mean ... NONE of those other guys have the Vikings team. It is obvious that Teddy is going to have the first shot at winning in the playoffs. None of the others are in playoff spots right now and really don't have very realistic chances at making it.

Teddy is solid. But if Carr rolls out 4200 yards, 35 TDs and a 100 passer rating, it does not matter if Teddy wins in the playoffs, Carr is the better QB.

Dilfer won a damn Super Bowl. Plunkett won two. They are not better than Peyton Manning, Dan Marion, Brett Favre, Dan Fouts.

And Flacco sucks too. The difference in him and GAME MANAGERS is that he can absolutely sling it, so if he gets hot (like he did in 2011) he can be very good for a few games. Though describing him as a "reserved" QB is waaaay off. He likes to fling it.

If you want the conversation to be about numbers, you are right, Carr is better.

Carr is not guaranteed success. Bridgewater is not guaranteed success. There have been a ton of QBs through the years that have put up good numbers and we have pretty much forgotten who they were, Drew Bledsoe for example. Sometimes the better QB is the QB that has more success.

Flacco hasn't been a great QB in terms of gawdy numbers, but I have seen him really fling that ball around in games where he had to. I still think he is a reserved QB, he takes what is given to him and he has had the luxury of playing "reserved/relaxed" due to his defenses that he has played with. He has won a Super Bowl and has lead his team to the playoffs. This year the defense is not as good as in the past and their record sucks. I don't see Flacco winning games with his stats dictating the game.

Rogers can't will a win, he has lost 3 straight. At some point your skills are limited by the team you have around you. The team that surrounds Carr on offense is not as bad as one would think, I like the way his WR have come through. Holmes, Roberts, Cooper and Crabtree are all fast and shown promise to be a solid group of WRs. We can take this conversation back to numbers if that is what we want to talk about. Rivers is a great QB if you look at his numbers, I love him on any fantasy football team but the guy can lose as well as Cutler or Stafford can or Flacco when he is forced to fling it while playing from behind.

Teddy hasn't slung the ball deep consistently, but when he is under pressure he has slung it well to move down the field. I like our odds. I would say that Teddy is always going to be closer to Russel Wilson than Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. I think that Carr is going to be a mediocre Rivers. I would rather have Wilson and his success than Rivers and his lack of success.

I didn't make it clear, but I didn't mean one playoff game win. I meant to say the one that wins first will be the one that they (Pundits) will be talking about as the better QB. I believe that the one that consistently wins playoff games is the better QB. Getting to the playoffs is one thing, winning multiple games in the playoffs is another, unless you are McNabb then it will haunt you.

snowinapril
11-15-2015, 10:49 PM
As I posted previously, it's about risk/reward. Carr has to make more downfield throws because his defense isn't as good. That means he'll get more yards and TDs, but also means he's gonna make some bad mistakes. Carr cost his team a win today with that late throw to the end zone. And that's why the Raiders are aub-.500 and the Vikings are 7-2 atop the division. Carr may be the better passer, but I'll take Teddy as my quarterback.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

Good point!!

snowinapril
11-15-2015, 10:58 PM
Dilfer won a damn Super Bowl. Plunkett won two. They are not better than Peyton Manning, Dan Marion, Brett Favre, Dan Fouts.

And Flacco sucks too. The difference in him and GAME MANAGERS is that he can absolutely sling it, so if he gets hot (like he did in 2011) he can be very good for a few games. Though describing him as a "reserved" QB is waaaay off. He likes to fling it.

There aren't many Fouts, Favres, Marinos, Mannings and Elways. I think that is why they are in the hall of fame.

And about Flacco, hindsight works really great here.

Honestly, we don't know what Teddy has in the tank at this point. I hope we don't get to that point anytime soon that we will find out. That means our defense has gotten worse and AD is not there.

But like I said, Carr throws the ball better. If all I wanted out of a guy was a guy to hit a deep receiver a few more times out of ten (compared to Teddy) Carr would be my guy.

purplehelmut
11-16-2015, 09:59 AM
Teddy outperformed Carr in one all-important stat and one that I believe is a major contributor to which team wins and which team loses: 0 interceptions compared to 2. Teddy isn't asked to win games at this point. He is asked not to lose them. The Vikings are a true team effort.

tastywaves
11-16-2015, 11:38 AM
I would argue that a good part of the reason we are 7-2 is because of Teddy.

If Teddy goes down, I believe our chances of making a playoff run go down significantly.

That being said, he has a lot of areas he needs to improve on.

midgensa
11-16-2015, 05:16 PM
I would argue that a good part of the reason we are 7-2 is because of Teddy.

If Teddy goes down, I believe our chances of making a playoff run go down significantly.

That being said, he has a lot of areas he needs to improve on.

Teddy is NOT LOSING US game ... and that is important. He is certainly 7-2 and we would not likely be that with Ponder, Cassel or T-Jack as our QBs ... but saying he is a big reason we are 7-2? That is probably off base.

If Teddy goes down we would be in trouble, that is true. He is certainly better than Shaun Hill. BUT would we be 7-2 with about 20 other QBs in the league, including the other guys in this discussion? I find it very hard to think that we would not.

We are NOT 7-2 in spite of Teddy, which is good. In 2012, we were 10-6 IN SPITE of Ponder. In 2007 we went 8-4 IN SPITE of T-Jack. In 2008 we won the division IN SPITE of Frerotte and T-Jack. So, we are in a much better position than that now. He Teddy certainly not losing us games ... and that is a big deal. He is not a negative link ... and that is a big deal.

BUT, to insinuate that we are 7-2 and he is a big reason, I certainly don't agree with. AD is a big reason. The defense is well over 60 percent of the reason. And, I do think that with any of the other guys in this discussion (Carr, Bortles, Winston, Manziel, Mariota) we would likely be 7-2. I still take him in the middle of the pack with those guys, but I would venture to say that 4-5 with the Raiders dreadful defense and line, 3-6 with the Jaguars dreadful defense and line, 4-5 with the absolutely awful Bucs line and secondary is as good as 7-2 with one of the five best defenses in the league backing you.

I find it hard to think we are not 7-2 with almost anyone under center right now. Well, maybe Jay Cutler, that guy sucks.

midgensa
11-16-2015, 05:18 PM
Teddy outperformed Carr in one all-important stat and one that I believe is a major contributor to which team wins and which team loses: 0 interceptions compared to 2. Teddy isn't asked to win games at this point. He is asked not to lose them. The Vikings are a true team effort.

It is nice. True team efforts get teams to the playoffs.

Rarely wins Super Bowls, unless they have Top-10 all time defenses ... which, maybe we are moving in that direction.

raptorman
11-16-2015, 07:04 PM
Teddy is NOT LOSING US game ... and that is important. He is certainly 7-2 and we would not likely be that with Ponder, Cassel or T-Jack as our QBs ... but saying he is a big reason we are 7-2? That is probably off base.

If Teddy goes down we would be in trouble, that is true. He is certainly better than Shaun Hill. BUT would we be 7-2 with about 20 other QBs in the league, including the other guys in this discussion? I find it very hard to think that we would not.

We are NOT 7-2 in spite of Teddy, which is good. In 2012, we were 10-6 IN SPITE of Ponder. In 2007 we went 8-4 IN SPITE of T-Jack. In 2008 we won the division IN SPITE of Frerotte and T-Jack. So, we are in a much better position than that now. He Teddy certainly not losing us games ... and that is a big deal. He is not a negative link ... and that is a big deal.

BUT, to insinuate that we are 7-2 and he is a big reason, I certainly don't agree with. AD is a big reason. The defense is well over 60 percent of the reason. And, I do think that with any of the other guys in this discussion (Carr, Bortles, Winston, Manziel, Mariota) we would likely be 7-2. I still take him in the middle of the pack with those guys, but I would venture to say that 4-5 with the Raiders dreadful defense and line, 3-6 with the Jaguars dreadful defense and line, 4-5 with the absolutely awful Bucs line and secondary is as good as 7-2 with one of the five best defenses in the league backing you.

I find it hard to think we are not 7-2 with almost anyone under center right now. Well, maybe Jay Cutler, that guy sucks.
FWIW, Jays last 4 games were better than Rodgers last 4.

RK.
11-16-2015, 07:51 PM
I think this is a good piece on where Teddy stands.


And though Bridgewater doesn't garner as much national attention as some of the league's other promising young quarterbacks -- including Carr, the passer drafted four spots below him in 2014 who had a typically prolific game on Sunday -- he is playing a significant role in Minnesota's success.

On Sunday, Bridgewater completed 14 of 22 passes for 140 yards and one touchdown (one fewer than he should have had, given that wide-open tight end Kyle Rudolph dropped a first-quarter throw in the back of the end zone), which doesn't sound all that impressive. However, watching the former Louisville star do the little things -- keeping plays alive, resisting the temptation to force throws, avoiding a third-quarter sack by stiff-arming onrushing Oakland linebacker Malcolm Smith before flipping a no-look pass to Matt Asiata for an 11-yard gain -- it's clear that Bridgewater's true impact doesn't translate to the fantasy-football masses.

Said Bridgewater when we spoke at his locker after the game: "I really don't care about fantasy football. I know it's the big trend now, and everybody plays it, but that's not my concern. We're playing real football here, and doing what it takes to win games. Sorry I can't get all those points for fantasy owners, but that's not what's important."

"He's taking care of the ball and playing really good complementary football, and coming up with big plays when we need them," Zimmer said of Bridgewater, for whom the Vikings traded up to take with the last pick of the first round two offseasons ago. "How can I say this in a nice way? ... We have deficiencies on this team, and I think he understands that. There are times he knows he's got to move in the pocket, and he makes plays with his arm, his legs and his eyes.

"I tell him all the time, 'Me and you are stuck together.' I'm glad he's my guy."

If there were any doubt about that, Zimmer affirmed it with his salty, affronted reaction to the illegal hit by the Rams' Lamarcus Joyner that knocked Bridgewater out of Week 9's victory over St. Louis with a concussion.

"It was great hearing that from your head coach, knowing that he's gonna go to war for you," Bridgewater said. "I love Coach Zimmer. He's a tough head coach who stands behind his players 100 percent."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000581106/article/adrian-peterson-keying-minnesota-vikings-renaissance-in-2015

tastywaves
11-16-2015, 08:57 PM
Teddy is NOT LOSING US game ... and that is important. He is certainly 7-2 and we would not likely be that with Ponder, Cassel or T-Jack as our QBs ... but saying he is a big reason we are 7-2? That is probably off base.

If Teddy goes down we would be in trouble, that is true. He is certainly better than Shaun Hill. BUT would we be 7-2 with about 20 other QBs in the league, including the other guys in this discussion? I find it very hard to think that we would not.

We are NOT 7-2 in spite of Teddy, which is good. In 2012, we were 10-6 IN SPITE of Ponder. In 2007 we went 8-4 IN SPITE of T-Jack. In 2008 we won the division IN SPITE of Frerotte and T-Jack. So, we are in a much better position than that now. He Teddy certainly not losing us games ... and that is a big deal. He is not a negative link ... and that is a big deal.

BUT, to insinuate that we are 7-2 and he is a big reason, I certainly don't agree with. AD is a big reason. The defense is well over 60 percent of the reason. And, I do think that with any of the other guys in this discussion (Carr, Bortles, Winston, Manziel, Mariota) we would likely be 7-2. I still take him in the middle of the pack with those guys, but I would venture to say that 4-5 with the Raiders dreadful defense and line, 3-6 with the Jaguars dreadful defense and line, 4-5 with the absolutely awful Bucs line and secondary is as good as 7-2 with one of the five best defenses in the league backing you.

I find it hard to think we are not 7-2 with almost anyone under center right now. Well, maybe Jay Cutler, that guy sucks.

Sorry, but I still stand behind my 3 statements. I am not saying QB A is better than QB B or QB B is better than QB C. Just saying that right now, Teddy is a piece of the current team that has started the season at 7-2. And he is a KEY piece and a big part of the reason that we are 7-2 IMO.

Would we better with any of the other guys you mentioned? I don't know (seriously I really don't know, this game is way too complex to throw that out and all the guys on your list have a long way to prove they are key pieces to their franchises success), i Just know he is currently a piece of a team that is playing well, while all hte other guys on your list are playing for teams that are not doing well.

And to RK's posting, I'm afraid Fantasy Football has forever skewed our way of looking at the game. This is not directed at you mid, I know you are beyond that, just a general statement.

midgensa
11-17-2015, 12:21 PM
FWIW, Jays last 4 games were better than Rodgers last 4.

Yeah that is true ... but we have a ton of track record to go on.

Cutler is quietly having a really good year and has the Bears right back in the wild card mix. Our win there is definitely starting to look more important.

purplehelmut
11-17-2015, 01:06 PM
It is nice. True team efforts get teams to the playoffs.

Rarely wins Super Bowls, unless they have Top-10 all time defenses ... which, maybe we are moving in that direction.

Team efforts rarely win Super Bowls? You'll have to clarify that one for me. And I never thought Cutler was a bad QB. He just needs the right coaching and scheme. I have seen him kick our asses more than once and when he gets hot he can be very, very good. The next time we play Chicago might be a more important game than we previously thought. Underestimate Cutler at your peril. I doubt our defense will underestimate him.

tarkenton10
11-17-2015, 01:39 PM
It is nice. True team efforts get teams to the playoffs.

Rarely wins Super Bowls, unless they have Top-10 all time defenses ... which, maybe we are moving in that direction.

You'll have to use your facts on that one. I can show you team wins in super bowls more than you can show me one person who won it for them. I believe defenses wins championships but you just contradicted yourself. If they have a top ten defense then that would mean 11 players were instrumental in the win!

purplehelmut
11-17-2015, 03:01 PM
BTW, just because I'm a curious sort: In 12 games vs. the Vikings Cutler is 8 wins vs. 4 losses. Completion percentage is 65.61%. 24 TD to 13 INTs. 91.7 QB rate. And zero sacks (at least that's what the website had). Not exactly chopped liver.

C Mac D
11-17-2015, 03:17 PM
BTW, just because I'm a curious sort: In 12 games vs. the Vikings Cutler is 8 wins vs. 4 losses. Completion percentage is 65.61%. 24 TD to 13 INTs. 91.7 QB rate. And zero sacks (at least that's what the website had). Not exactly chopped liver.

Every QB looked like Joe Montana verse those Leslie Frazier defenses.

purplehelmut
11-17-2015, 03:40 PM
Every QB looked like Joe Montana verse those Leslie Frazier defenses.

Good point. But Cutler can be a dangerous opponent.

tastywaves
11-17-2015, 06:39 PM
Every QB looked like Joe Montana verse those Leslie Frazier defenses.

Yup, many QB contracts were made after playing the Vikings in that era.

midgensa
11-17-2015, 08:35 PM
You'll have to use your facts on that one. I can show you team wins in super bowls more than you can show me one person who won it for them. I believe defenses wins championships but you just contradicted yourself. If they have a top ten defense then that would mean 11 players were instrumental in the win!

Yeah ... that was worded poorly ... but what the gist was is in context ...

True team efforts with average QBs rarely win Super Bowls. There have been 49 Super Bowl winners. 36 have been won by Hall of Famers or likely future hall of famers (not counting Wilson in that group, but he could make it 37 ... and of course Ken Stabler should absolutely be in the Hall!). 45 have been won by Pro Bowl QBs.

Of the 13 won by non-Hall of Famers, 9 of them had Top 4 (TOP FOUR) defenses. And 5 of those are considered some of the greatest defenses to EVER play the 85 Bears, 86 Giants, 00 Ravens, 02 Bucs, and 13 Seahwaks.

So ... FOUR times there have been Super Bowls won with sub-par defenses and non Hall of Fame QBs.

So ... it CAN happen ... it is just very difficult. If our defense finishes Top 4 in the league, which it might, then we are in the skew. We can win with a game manager like Teddy Bridgewater. If we are not, it becomes very unlikely we can win a Super Bowl.

If our defense is in the Top 5 AND we have a Pro Bowl caliber QB, our chances GREATLY increase.

Is Teddy good enough for this team right now? Yes, absolutely. Is he CLEARLY better than the other guys we are discussing here? ... I don't see any metric that shows that. Is he possibly better than all of them? Yes, absolutely. Is he possible the worst of the bunch? Yes, absolutely.

But, most importantly, can we win a SUPER BOWL with FG Teddy? My contention is ONLY if we have a Top 4 defense, which we just might have.

midgensa
11-17-2015, 08:49 PM
BTW, just because I'm a curious sort: In 12 games vs. the Vikings Cutler is 8 wins vs. 4 losses. Completion percentage is 65.61%. 24 TD to 13 INTs. 91.7 QB rate. And zero sacks (at least that's what the website had). Not exactly chopped liver.

I am guessing you did that on Football-Reference ... just so you know ... that 0 sacks was how many sacks HE made. He made zero sacks and zero tackles in those games. You can click on the boxscore for the game this year and see that Hunter got him ... actually remember that one.

Also ... those numbers are not that good. They are not terrible, but not that good. A 91.7 rating is solid, but good for 16th in the league (and worse than the just-cut Brandon Weedon!) And a 6.8 YPA is not good either. Throw in 13 INTs and Cutler has been pretty average against the Vikings. The biggest concern is the 24 TDs. That is a pretty good number, and kind of shows his gunslinger mentality.

Not chopped liver, but maybe chopped brussel sprouts.

BTW ... you want to have some fun ... go to Aaron Rodgers and look how he has carved up the Vikes. :petersaysowsmall:

snowinapril
11-18-2015, 04:17 AM
Last thing I say in this thread.

I am not going to go around stating that TB is the best QB, it isn't true. He hasn't proven anything accept his ability to manage the game, throw well to what is given to him, and play well under pressure. His skill set seems limited at this point, partially because of physical limitations.

But as long as we are winning, I am going to be happy with what we got. Teddy is doing a great job in this system. He can do enough to win and he isn't rattled.

tarkenton10
11-18-2015, 08:04 AM
Yeah ... that was worded poorly ... but what the gist was is in context ...

True team efforts with average QBs rarely win Super Bowls. There have been 49 Super Bowl winners. 36 have been won by Hall of Famers or likely future hall of famers (not counting Wilson in that group, but he could make it 37 ... and of course Ken Stabler should absolutely be in the Hall!). 45 have been won by Pro Bowl QBs.

Of the 13 won by non-Hall of Famers, 9 of them had Top 4 (TOP FOUR) defenses. And 5 of those are considered some of the greatest defenses to EVER play the 85 Bears, 86 Giants, 00 Ravens, 02 Bucs, and 13 Seahwaks.

So ... FOUR times there have been Super Bowls won with sub-par defenses and non Hall of Fame QBs.

So ... it CAN happen ... it is just very difficult. If our defense finishes Top 4 in the league, which it might, then we are in the skew. We can win with a game manager like Teddy Bridgewater. If we are not, it becomes very unlikely we can win a Super Bowl.

If our defense is in the Top 5 AND we have a Pro Bowl caliber QB, our chances GREATLY increase.

Is Teddy good enough for this team right now? Yes, absolutely. Is he CLEARLY better than the other guys we are discussing here? ... I don't see any metric that shows that. Is he possibly better than all of them? Yes, absolutely. Is he possible the worst of the bunch? Yes, absolutely.

But, most importantly, can we win a SUPER BOWL with FG Teddy? My contention is ONLY if we have a Top 4 defense, which we just might have.

That is true but doesn't that contradict your point that a team effort won't win super bowls?

midgensa
11-18-2015, 10:24 AM
That is true but doesn't that contradict your point that a team effort won't win super bowls?

I started that entire post by pointing out that I worded that poorly. Obviously team efforts win Super Bowls. But team efforts with average QBs tend not to.

It does not matter how good your QB is if your team sucks (see Dan Marino). Everyone knows that. But it does matter how good your QB is even if your team is great.

midgensa
11-18-2015, 10:25 AM
Last thing I say in this thread.

I am not going to go around stating that TB is the best QB, it isn't true. He hasn't proven anything accept his ability to manage the game, throw well to what is given to him, and play well under pressure. His skill set seems limited at this point, partially because of physical limitations.

But as long as we are winning, I am going to be happy with what we got. Teddy is doing a great job in this system. He can do enough to win and he isn't rattled.

I agree with most of that. As long as he is not hurting us, I am happy with his production while we are winning.

BUT, if it is clear that we cannot get over the hump in the next two-three years and he is still a 85 rating QB, we would be foolish to not move on, no matter how many 10 win seasons we have.

Leafman
11-18-2015, 12:16 PM
Here is a sophisticated analysis of Teddy's performance and abilities, and although it is subjective I agree almost completely with both its methodologies and its conclusions.

Be warned, you need to be a critical thinker to understand the analytical logic ... if you are simply entrenched in the "Teddy is a below-average quarterback" mindset, please don't bother to waste your time with the article or our time with your corresponding commentary.

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2015/11/18/9754306/chill-out-on-teddy-bridgewater

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

midgensa
11-18-2015, 12:24 PM
Here is a sophisticated analysis of Teddy's performance and abilities, and although it is subjective I agree almost completely with both its methodologies and it's conclusions.

Be warned, you need to be a critical thinker to understand the logic ... if you are simply entrenched in the "Teddy is a below-average quarterback", please don't bother to waste your time with the article or our time with your corresponding commentary.

http://www.dailynorseman.com/2015/11/18/9754306/chill-out-on-teddy-bridgewater

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

Yes, we should be warned. Anybody who has a different opinion than yourself is clearly "entrenched" no matter how many items and statistics they post to try and back their point.

You, on the other hand, are not entrenched in anything. The others are the "bad" guys who think Teddy hasn't progressed (which is backed by almost any statistical analysis) and you are "enlightened."

You can keep making belittling comments. You can keep posting articles written by VIKINGS bloggers defending Teddy. A blog that he spends 1,000+ words explaining how he set it up to swing it toward a +Teddy scenario.

I will keep showing you stats that are stats of an average QB. No better, no worse. A 15th-22nd QB in the league. No better, no worse.

I get it. If you think Teddy Bridgewater is better than Derek Carr (despite all statistical and eye tests to the contrary) ... you are a critical thinker. If you don't, you are entrenched in doom and gloom. Got it.

You are a true fan, Leaf. You blindly follow what you are told to.

Leafman
11-18-2015, 12:39 PM
You are a true fan, Leaf. You blindly follow what you are told to.

Oh yes. You can just call me Zygi's lap dog. Woof Woof. =-)

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

tarkenton10
11-18-2015, 03:10 PM
I started that entire post by pointing out that I worded that poorly. Obviously team efforts win Super Bowls. But team efforts with average QBs tend not to.

It does not matter how good your QB is if your team sucks (see Dan Marino). Everyone knows that. But it does matter how good your QB is even if your team is great.

sounds about right then.

snowinapril
11-18-2015, 11:03 PM
I agree with most of that. As long as he is not hurting us, I am happy with his production while we are winning.

BUT, if it is clear that we cannot get over the hump in the next two-three years and he is still a 85 rating QB, we would be foolish to not move on, no matter how many 10 win seasons we have.

You have to have someone better to replace someone with....... for the record I am not suggesting that thread. LOL

tarkenton10
11-19-2015, 08:10 AM
You have to have someone better to replace someone with....... for the record I am not suggesting that thread. LOL

That sounds like a great thread!!

purplehelmut
11-19-2015, 09:53 AM
I am guessing you did that on Football-Reference ... just so you know ... that 0 sacks was how many sacks HE made. He made zero sacks and zero tackles in those games. You can click on the boxscore for the game this year and see that Hunter got him ... actually remember that one.

Also ... those numbers are not that good. They are not terrible, but not that good. A 91.7 rating is solid, but good for 16th in the league (and worse than the just-cut Brandon Weedon!) And a 6.8 YPA is not good either. Throw in 13 INTs and Cutler has been pretty average against the Vikings. The biggest concern is the 24 TDs. That is a pretty good number, and kind of shows his gunslinger mentality.

Not chopped liver, but maybe chopped brussel sprouts.

BTW ... you want to have some fun ... go to Aaron Rodgers and look how he has carved up the Vikes. :petersaysowsmall:

I knew there had to be something with that sack stat. For the Vikings to play 12 games against anybody and not have a sack is highly unlikely. Wonder why they keep track how many sacks/tackles a QB made? sometimes these stats mystify me. Cutler isn't a bad QB. I don't care for him, nor would I want him on my team. But there are many who can't play at his level in the NFL. And crappy defenses or not- he's pretty much owned us. Like Rodgers.

Leafman
11-19-2015, 01:37 PM
Today's shameless pro-Teddy plug, courtesy of Greg Schiano on MIKE & Mike:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=14167685&ex_cid=espntw

We obviously drink from the same cup of Purple Kool-Aid! =-)

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

midgensa
11-19-2015, 01:59 PM
Today's shameless pro-Teddy plug, courtesy of Greg Schiano on MIKE & Mike:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=14167685&ex_cid=espntw

We obviously drink from the same cup of Purple Kool-Aid! =-)

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

Yeah ... that is a pretty big cup of Kool-Aid.

Teddy might remind Schiano of Joe Montana, but Schiano reminds me of a terrible and fired head coach who thought that Mike Glennon was the next coming of Joe Montana.

purplehelmut
11-19-2015, 04:26 PM
I'm not about to predict a career for Bridgewater that Montana had. But Montana's career completion percentage of 63.2%, YPA of 7.5, and 92.3 rate compares to Bridgewater's 64.3%, 7.2YPA, and 85 rate. Let's hope Bridge does improve his passing and manages to throw some touchdown passes as his career progresses and those numbers should improve. In order for the Vikings to become an elite team they'll have to improve.

raptorman
11-19-2015, 06:41 PM
I'm not about to predict a career for Bridgewater that Montana had. But Montana's career completion percentage of 63.2%, YPA of 7.5, and 92.3 rate compares to Bridgewater's 64.3%, 7.2YPA, and 85 rate. Let's hope Bridge does improve his passing and manages to throw some touchdown passes as his career progresses and those numbers should improve. In order for the Vikings to become an elite team they'll have to improve. Vikings are an elite team. You can take away any one player and they can still beat you. Packers take away Rodgers, they are done. Colts. Take Luck they are toast. Cowboys, take Romo, toast. The Vikings are becoming one of the most dangerous teams in the league. Good Defense with an offense/special teams, that keeps you guessing on how they are going to score.

snowinapril
11-20-2015, 02:15 AM
I just watched a whole game between Mariota and Bortles, it wasn't more impressive than Bridgewater. One could say they played defensive minded teams and the defenses dictated terms. I think the key to this is you have to take the whole game into consideration. I would like to know how many minutes Carr and Bortles have had to play from behind. Teddy has played with a lead or not too far behind in most of his games. Playing from behind would cause one to pass more. Oh well!

These young QBs do well and they all have a long ways to go before any of them separate themselves from each other.

purplehelmut
11-20-2015, 09:31 AM
I'm not sure the Vikings would be considered an elite team just now. Maybe they are, but it will take wins over the next few games to prove it. And I tried to watch TN at Jax last night but it was nearly unwatchable. Not only did the uniforms stink, so did the teams. Nothing Bortles or Mariota did last night led me to believe how great they're going to be. Yes, it was just one game but I was underwhelmed with both of them.

midgensa
11-20-2015, 09:57 AM
I just watched a whole game between Mariota and Bortles, it wasn't more impressive than Bridgewater. One could say they played defensive minded teams and the defenses dictated terms. I think the key to this is you have to take the whole game into consideration. I would like to know how many minutes Carr and Bortles have had to play from behind. Teddy has played with a lead or not too far behind in most of his games. Playing from behind would cause one to pass more. Oh well!

These young QBs do well and they all have a long ways to go before any of them separate themselves from each other.

This argument is a common one for people to use, but does not hold sway. When you are behind and have to pass more, the other team knows as well. Defensive lineman don't have to cover their run gaps. Safeties don't have to worry about being the second level against the run.

Brady, Rodgers, Brees (n the past), Manning ... etc. Didn't always play from behind and still put up plenty of impressive passing numbers.

As for last night ... Bortles numbers were very solid ... and better than Bridgewater's averages by a LONG SHOT. A 91.7 rating with 242 yards and a 70% completion percentage is a pretty good night. He CLEARLY has a better arm than Teddy and can make more throws than Teddy. I would say Teddy definitely holds the pocket better, but that is really the only thing Teddy does better than Bortles at this point.

Marcus Mariota also had a very solid game, just couldn't get it in the endzone, which is pretty much Teddy's problem. And, of course, Mariota only has 8 career starts and Teddy has 21 ... So, he damn well should look better than Mariota (but most of the time he doesn't).

Al that said ... I am surprised that Teddy looks his best when we HAVE TO PASS. When the Bears knew we would be throwing, when the Broncos knew we would be throwing ... he looked good. Which shows me one thing that everyone loves about Teddy is probably a little off ... he is a head case. When he HAS to make the plays and can take the risks without being scared of results he makes the play. When he doesn't have to, he eats it, runs or checks down pretty consistently. He is SCARED of making a mistake. That is what I feel at least. It is certainly what he looked like in the 49ers game.

But when being scared doesn't matter, like against the Bears and Broncos late, he can make the plays because he just goes out there and plays.

He still doesn't have even average arm strength, but if he can get over being scare of the mistake I think he would make a huge leap.

snowinapril
11-20-2015, 09:05 PM
Al that said ... I am surprised that Teddy looks his best when we HAVE TO PASS. When the Bears knew we would be throwing, when the Broncos knew we would be throwing ... he looked good. Which shows me one thing that everyone loves about Teddy is probably a little off ... he is a head case. When he HAS to make the plays and can take the risks without being scared of results he makes the play. When he doesn't have to, he eats it, runs or checks down pretty consistently. He is SCARED of making a mistake. That is what I feel at least. It is certainly what he looked like in the 49ers game.

But when being scared doesn't matter, like against the Bears and Broncos late, he can make the plays because he just goes out there and plays.

He still doesn't have even average arm strength, but if he can get over being scare of the mistake I think he would make a huge leap.

I don't think he is scared! I agree with the rest quoted above. I think he knows that turn overs kill. With that said, I wish his TD to INT ratio was a lot better.

snowinapril
11-20-2015, 10:34 PM
One more thing I would like to consider, offensive line play.
If our line was playing better would Teddy be playing better?

I think so.

I think our line was mediocre through week 5 and since then has probably peaked. I think that if our line and RB were blocking better in that game, we could have won.

Leafman
11-20-2015, 11:15 PM
Our OLine play has been inconsistent at best, and downright awful a lot of the time. Typically, when one of our guys has a good game, the guy next to him is stinking it up. Now, that's not to say this isn't happening to a lot of teams across the league, where we see subpar line play really affecting QB play ... Stafford, Brees and Rivers are prime examples. Hell, even the second coming of the football Messiah, Aaron Rodgers, has looked like a frightened, indecisive, inaccurate rookie as the line play in front of him has deteriorated with the loss of Bulaga and other injuries. So that is definitely a key ... if we had Sully and Loadholt healthy, I believe the views of Teddy's performance would be much more positive at this point, not to mention he would probably have much better statistical support for his play.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

midgensa
11-21-2015, 11:19 AM
One more thing I would like to consider, offensive line play.
If our line was playing better would Teddy be playing better?

I think so.

I think our line was mediocre through week 5 and since then has probably peaked. I think that if our line and RB were blocking better in that game, we could have won.

Our offensive line certainly grades out as good or better than Oakland, Jacksonville, Tennessee, Cleveland or Tampa Bay.

Our line is in the top half of the league on ProFootballFocus. It is not good, but there are few "good" ones in the league right now as the pass rush has changed so drastically over the last five years and offensive lines have not adjusted.

I like to think, if Teddy was making reads faster and getting rid of the ball would our offensive line seem better? Probably. Our left side grades fairly well, our right side not nearly as bad as you would think.

And again ... I am currently a stay-at-home dad with my 19-month-old, so I have way too much time ... but it is an eye test. You can just watch these other teams play. Their lines are certainly not better. And Cleveland (despite Joe Thomas playing pretty well regularly) and Jacksonville are downright dreadful. Tennessee and Tampa are pretty bad, but maybe somewhat comparable to the Vikings.

EVERY single one of the QBs (other than Manziel) has a quicker release than Bridgewater. You can see it just watching them play. Carr and Winston really get the ball out quickly. That has plenty to do with sacks and pressure.

snowinapril
11-22-2015, 12:28 AM
Our offensive line certainly grades out as good or better than Oakland, Jacksonville, Tennessee, Cleveland or Tampa Bay.

Our line is in the top half of the league on ProFootballFocus. It is not good, but there are few "good" ones in the league right now as the pass rush has changed so drastically over the last five years and offensive lines have not adjusted.

I like to think, if Teddy was making reads faster and getting rid of the ball would our offensive line seem better? Probably. Our left side grades fairly well, our right side not nearly as bad as you would think.

And again ... I am currently a stay-at-home dad with my 19-month-old, so I have way too much time ... but it is an eye test. You can just watch these other teams play. Their lines are certainly not better. And Cleveland (despite Joe Thomas playing pretty well regularly) and Jacksonville are downright dreadful. Tennessee and Tampa are pretty bad, but maybe somewhat comparable to the Vikings.

EVERY single one of the QBs (other than Manziel) has a quicker release than Bridgewater. You can see it just watching them play. Carr and Winston really get the ball out quickly. That has plenty to do with sacks and pressure.

Kalil is playing better but we are worse off than last year at every other position on the line. Replacement center, guards have switched it up, and the RT is a rookie that Norv admits to committing extra help to because he is playing like a rookie surviving on his athleticism. I think this is one reason why we have been using 3 TE sets at times.