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singersp
03-22-2014, 10:02 AM
Spielman's Draft track record made signing free-agent CB more crucial

Spielman's Draft track record made signing free-agent CB more crucial - Minnesota Vikings news | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities - Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Vikings (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Spielmans_Draft_track_record_made_signing_freeagent_CB_more_crucial031914)

midgensa
03-22-2014, 04:28 PM
Well ... he has definitely missed a few times on CBs ... but that is life. He did not reach for any of them. And it appears that Rhodes was a good pick at this point.

Cook, McCauley and Robinson obviously stick out ... as does Tyrell Johnson ... in the defensive backfield as misses. But Cedric Griffin, Xavier Rhodes and Asher Allen were not bad picks (though Allen retiring kind of sucked). All where picked about where they should have been draft wise ... we just happen to be the team that got screwed by them.

With Rhodes and Harrison Smith in the DB rotation now ... Spielman can really get rid of the negative DB stigma by hitting on another CB somewhere in the first four rounds this year. There is a lot of CB talent out there this season ... and decent SS talent as well.

RK.
03-22-2014, 06:47 PM
The draft is pretty much a crap shoot most of the time, especially for positions other than those on offense that handle the ball. And for those that handle the ball it is still pretty much a crap shoot. At least in FA you have some idea of whether they can play at the NFL level.

jargomcfargo
03-22-2014, 07:16 PM
The draft is pretty much a crap shoot most of the time, especially for positions other than those on offense that handle the ball. And for those that handle the ball it is still pretty much a crap shoot. At least in FA you have some idea of whether they can play at the NFL level.
It is a crap shoot for Spielman and the Vikings, for sure.
It seems less so for Seattle and New England for some reason!
I don't hold Spielman solely responsible for anything in the draft prior to being promoted to GM. And there was a stupid theory about inferior cover cornerbacks being adequate in a Tampa 2/cover 2, scheme when Childress was brought it in.
Rhodes was known as a cover corner coming out of college. Hopefully Spielman has learned the value of a corner that can play man and zone.
The coaching and systems should be an improvement, but they weren't the only problem.
Spielman simply needs to improve. Instead of hitting grand slams, he needs to hit a lot of base hits. Team sport. The bottom tier of starters and back ups needs to improve for the team to be strong. Hopefully that has begun with this years free agency moves, and will continue throughout the draft and off season.

purpleblood32
03-26-2014, 10:50 AM
i think every team should be able to find a stud plug in and start guy ,with their first pick this years draft .after that it a bonus to find a starter ...you can find guys to come in a challange guys for playing time and compete.find guys that stay around and get into the starting lineup by their third year .that would be awesome

drewlovs
03-26-2014, 04:04 PM
It is a crap shoot for Spielman and the Vikings, for sure.
It seems less so for Seattle and New England for some reason!
I don't hold Spielman solely responsible for anything in the draft prior to being promoted to GM. And there was a stupid theory about inferior cover cornerbacks being adequate in a Tampa 2/cover 2, scheme when Childress was brought it in.
Rhodes was known as a cover corner coming out of college. Hopefully Spielman has learned the value of a corner that can play man and zone.
The coaching and systems should be an improvement, but they weren't the only problem.
Spielman simply needs to improve. Instead of hitting grand slams, he needs to hit a lot of base hits. Team sport. The bottom tier of starters and back ups needs to improve for the team to be strong. Hopefully that has begun with this years free agency moves, and will continue throughout the draft and off season.

The Patriots are amazing, but the Seahawks have had a few really really good drafts RECENTLY. They have not been as a "great at the draft" team previously, so whether that continues remains to be seen.

This year the game should slow down for Rhodes, I'm expecting great things; Floydd as well! I would love to see another CB drafted to go with the veterans we got from FA, but I'm hoping for some "Zimmer late round magic" with that position.

If I got my way, I would go QB, 2 LBs and one more star WR, then use the later rounds for the rest.

P.S. Who those people are I don't know; I just think we have let the LB position kinda get away from us. Let's invest into the position if the players are there to do so...

kevoncox
03-26-2014, 05:55 PM
Speilman.... has issues drafting many positions. Anything less than a 1st rounder....we swing and miss on. That's why bad teams stay bad.

midgensa
03-26-2014, 06:17 PM
Speilman.... has issues drafting many positions. Anything less than a 1st rounder....we swing and miss on. That's why bad teams stay bad.

Players Rick Spielman has taken past round one that probably do not classify as "swing and miss":

Brian Robison (Round 4)
Sidney Rice (Round 2)
John Sullivan (Round 6)
Letroy Guion (Round 5)
Jamarca Sanford (Round 7)
Jasper Brinkley (Round 5)
Phil Loadholt (Round 2)
Everson Griffen (Round 4)
Toby Gerhart (Round 2)
Brandon Fusco (Round 6)
Kyle Rudolph (Round 2)
Blair Walsh (Round 6)
Audie Cole (Round 7)
Jarius Wright (Round 4)

There is three Pro Bowl selections in there (and very likely more to come). While many of these guys are not superstars ... all of them filled the value for where they were selected. I don't see many teams out there nabbing superstars in the 4th-7th round. At best ... it happens occasionally. Getting the production we get from Sullivan, Fusco, Walsh, Sanford and Cole already ... they have already exceeded their draft spots and would be drafted much higher if that same class were "redrafted" today.

midgensa
03-26-2014, 06:23 PM
The Patriots are amazing, but the Seahawks have had a few really really good drafts RECENTLY. They have not been as a "great at the draft" team previously, so whether that continues remains to be seen.

This year the game should slow down for Rhodes, I'm expecting great things; Floydd as well! I would love to see another CB drafted to go with the veterans we got from FA, but I'm hoping for some "Zimmer late round magic" with that position.

If I got my way, I would go QB, 2 LBs and one more star WR, then use the later rounds for the rest.

P.S. Who those people are I don't know; I just think we have let the LB position kinda get away from us. Let's invest into the position if the players are there to do so...

Yeah ... Seattle has had some really shitty drafts in the not-so-distant past. I think where they hit it big was Chancellor, Wagner, Wilson and Sherman. Those guys were later draft picks that have panned out fantastically and covered for some questionable first and second rounders.

The Patriots are notorious for getting EVERYTHING out of a player ... which is why alot of their players leave for money elsewhere and are busts.

jargomcfargo
03-26-2014, 11:13 PM
Yeah ... Seattle has had some really shitty drafts in the not-so-distant past. I think where they hit it big was Chancellor, Wagner, Wilson and Sherman. Those guys were later draft picks that have panned out fantastically and covered for some questionable first and second rounders.

The Patriots are notorious for getting EVERYTHING out of a player ... which is why alot of their players leave for money elsewhere and are busts.
How does this relate to Spielman's draft track record ?

marshallvike
03-26-2014, 11:53 PM
This article is really bullshit. Spielman has only drafted two cornerbacks since he took over the reigns, and they are both still with the team. Stupid to blame him for the picks when he wasn't in charge

drewlovs
03-27-2014, 12:19 AM
How does this relate to Spielman's draft track record ?

Let's see; we were discussing how Spielman's draft record was compared to both the Patriots and the Seahawks, which drew the Seahawks "great drafting reputation" into question. But the Patriots record is without question one that we would LOVE for Spielman to emulate.

Seeing how threads get derailed here quite often, I'm happy to see people trying to keep things on track; but I'm not so sure these posts were so far off the mark that they needed to be scrutinized.

kevoncox
03-27-2014, 09:59 AM
How was he not in charge? It was his draft board. His scouting department. Chlly had a say on what the team needed but it was up to him to find the player. Chilly didn't say.... hey lets take this guy over this guy. That was speilman's call. When a position was drafted... he decided who that position was... Think about it. Chilly didn't want Favre... yet Favre was on the team. When it came to player decisions... it was Speilman. The trade for Rosencopter etc.

Minniman
03-27-2014, 10:59 AM
Let's see; we were discussing how Spielman's draft record was compared to both the Patriots and the Seahawks, which drew the Seahawks "great drafting reputation" into question. But the Patriots record is without question one that we would LOVE for Spielman to emulate.
That begs the question: are the Patriots and Seahawks drafting better, or are the players just coached better? It is likely both, but both teams got lucky with Brady and Wilson sliding out of day one of the draft.

Minniman
03-27-2014, 11:01 AM
How was he not in charge? It was his draft board. His scouting department. Chilly had a say on what the team needed but it was up to him to find the player. Chilly didn't say.... hey lets take this guy over this guy. That was speilman's call. When a position was drafted... he decided who that position was...
I agree, Speilman was in charge. He was the player personnel guy before becoming the GM. The drafts were his, the trades were his, the player personnel record is his.

tastywaves
03-27-2014, 11:26 AM
This whole thread is based on a very sloppy article.

If this team was winning and competing, these players would be seen in a very different light. I'm of the opinion that the coaching has been a bigger issue than the players on the roster....outside of QB.

kevoncox
03-27-2014, 11:35 AM
This whole thread is based on a very sloppy article.

If this team was winning and competing, these players would be seen in a very different light. I'm of the opinion that the coaching has been a bigger issue than the players on the roster....outside of QB.

Maybe we're losing because of the players chosen?
Asher allen and Marcus Maculey ( spelling) aren't winning anyone games. we are losing because we have no depth. If jennings was to go down... we would be in trouble at WR. Injuries to cbs showed our depth last season. Also LB would be a huge problem. Lets not forget DE. We are bare at every position.

tastywaves
03-27-2014, 01:59 PM
Maybe we're losing because of the players chosen?
Asher allen and Marcus Maculey ( spelling) aren't winning anyone games. we are losing because we have no depth. If jennings was to go down... we would be in trouble at WR. Injuries to cbs showed our depth last season. Also LB would be a huge problem. Lets not forget DE. We are bare at every position.

When we start winning, I predict you will change your tune.

Very few teams have pro-bowlers starting at every position, with 2-3 behind them just waiting to show how great they are.

If we would have drafted the same players that New England did over the last 5 years, I don't envision us winning significantly more than we did under our last to coaching regimes. If we had Tom Brady in purple, that is a whole different story, and even shitty coaches would have had a lot more success.

drewlovs
03-27-2014, 02:18 PM
When we start winning, I predict you will change your tune.

Very few teams have pro-bowlers starting at every position, with 2-3 behind them just waiting to show how great they are.

If we would have drafted the same players that New England did over the last 5 years, I don't envision us winning significantly more than we did under our last to coaching regimes. If we had Tom Brady in purple, that is a whole different story, and even shitty coaches would have had a lot more success.

I can't disagree, but I also can AGREE. The problem is, we will never know. The one constant we will have from then until now is Spielman, so it is truly a make or break season and draft for him. I DO NOT expect Zimmer and co. to be let go if next season is a bust, I think they will drop Spielman and see if another GM makes the difference.

If Zimmer, like Frazier, is NOT Spielman's "guy", he will NEVER have a coach that he likes. If he couldn't get Wilf to hire someone he wanted at this point, it is all a mote issue. As such, Spielman (in my opinion) has his coach, has the team where HE wants it, and we will see if he has the ability to pick winners for that team.

tastywaves
03-27-2014, 02:32 PM
As such, Spielman (in my opinion) has his coach, has the team where HE wants it, and we will see if he has the ability to pick winners for that team.

I think Zimmer is Spielman's pick, which ultimately will determine his future with MN.

In terms of the player's on the roster, yes that is Spielman's responsibility, but it is not done in a vacuum. The coaching staff and scouting team has a huge influence on what player's are selected and how they are utilized.

tarkenton10
03-27-2014, 03:18 PM
How was he not in charge? It was his draft board. His scouting department. Chlly had a say on what the team needed but it was up to him to find the player. Chilly didn't say.... hey lets take this guy over this guy. That was speilman's call. When a position was drafted... he decided who that position was... Think about it. Chilly didn't want Favre... yet Favre was on the team. When it came to player decisions... it was Speilman. The trade for Rosencopter etc.

How do you know that? Do you know exactly who got to pick with TOA? I would assume Chilly did get to pick his guy, Spielman set the board and then Chilly got to pick from several guys on that board when the pick came up. Do you really know how they picked or are you just dumping on Spielman because you don't like him? If you do know exactly how they picked then why don't you explain the process so I can hate on Spielman as well.

kevoncox
03-27-2014, 03:33 PM
How do you know that? Do you know exactly who got to pick with TOA? I would assume Chilly did get to pick his guy, Spielman set the board and then Chilly got to pick from several guys on that board when the pick came up. Do you really know how they picked or are you just dumping on Spielman because you don't like him? If you do know exactly how they picked then why don't you explain the process so I can hate on Spielman as well.

It doesn't work that way. That's how I know. A coach doesn't come into the draft and in the 3rd round decide that some Cb from a small school would be better off than some guy from USC. Nor does he do the opposite. Speilman set the table and ranks the prospects based on his "amazing" process. Do you really think Chilly could come in and say... i rather take the 7th rank guy over the 9th? No! Could he say... at round 3 I rather draft a TE than a Lb? Sure... but you can't tell me he was out there moving the board around. That was/is speilman's baby. If the TOA decided they needed a CB... it was based on speilman's math which cb was selected... and he missed constantly at CB and a lot of other positions.

kevoncox
03-27-2014, 03:37 PM
When we start winning, I predict you will change your tune.

Very few teams have pro-bowlers starting at every position, with 2-3 behind them just waiting to show how great they are.

If we would have drafted the same players that New England did over the last 5 years, I don't envision us winning significantly more than we did under our last to coaching regimes. If we had Tom Brady in purple, that is a whole different story, and even shitty coaches would have had a lot more success.

Actually I won't. I'm the same guy that was warning about how bad this team was after Peterson's great season when everyone was predicting 12 wins. The fact remains...we are an awful team. That just got a hell of a lot worst. Not every team has a shit load of pro bowlers but we are average to bad at 3-4 positions on the OL. I never fall in love with potential so add 2-4 on the DL. 2 on the LB level, 2/ 4 at the DB level. And we have 1 true WR. Plenty of potential and splash but low production. Our Qb situation is the laughing stock of the league. We simply are not a good team and haven't been one for a long time. 1 good Qb year int he past 7 years is awful.

tarkenton10
03-27-2014, 03:39 PM
It doesn't work that way. That's how I know. A coach doesn't come into the draft and in the 3rd round decide that some Cb from a small school would be better off than some guy from USC. Nor does he do the opposite. Speilman set the table and ranks the prospects based on his "amazing" process. Do you really think Chilly could come in and say... i rather take the 7th rank guy over the 9th? No! Could he say... at round 3 I rather draft a TE than a Lb? Sure... but you can't tell me he was out there moving the board around. That was/is speilman's baby. If the TOA decided they needed a CB... it was based on speilman's math which cb was selected... and he missed constantly at CB and a lot of other positions.

I didn't say he moved the board around, I said how do you know Spielman got to make the pick. And yes, there are coaches who say I want this guy if he is right around the place to pick. So I still think you can't blame Spielman until he became GM. Otherwise you are saying he was the GM and the TOA was just a front.

kevoncox
03-27-2014, 04:55 PM
I didn't say he moved the board around, I said how do you know Spielman got to make the pick. And yes, there are coaches who say I want this guy if he is right around the place to pick. So I still think you can't blame Spielman until he became GM. Otherwise you are saying he was the GM and the TOA was just a front.

The TOA was for decisions related to the team. Was speilman calling plays on Sunday? No... so clearly each member had their expertise. I find it hard to believe that a guy who had been interviewed multiple times for the complexity of his draft board would give up all those hours to allow a coach to simply pick random players on draft day. Come on, this is a no brainer. They worked together but final say on the draft belonged to the guy who's job it was to scout and draft players. My proof is... Chilly didn't want randy... Randy was on the team. Chilly didn't want Farve, Farve was on the team. Chilly didn't want Rosencopter.... The chopper was on the team. When it came to FA signings and the draft....they worked together but it was Speilman's baby.

midgensa
03-27-2014, 06:13 PM
How does this relate to Spielman's draft track record ?

It doesn't. It was in direct response to somebody else's quote about other teams draft record.

How does your post relate to Spielman's draft record? I clearly posted about the subject a post before and chose to respond to somebody else's as well.

Don't know what you are being an ass for ... but good for you ... the Internet applauds.

midgensa
03-27-2014, 06:15 PM
That begs the question: are the Patriots and Seahawks drafting better, or are the players just coached better? It is likely both, but both teams got lucky with Brady and Wilson sliding out of day one of the draft.

This is a fantastic point. I think that the Seahawks and Patriots are VERY good examples of getting everything out of players.

I would love to see our staffs be able to do this more often. I think it might be possible under the new regime.

jargomcfargo
03-27-2014, 11:54 PM
It doesn't. It was in direct response to somebody else's quote about other teams draft record.

How does your post relate to Spielman's draft record? I clearly posted about the subject a post before and chose to respond to somebody else's as well.

Don't know what you are being an ass for ... but good for you ... the Internet applauds.
I'm happy you are offended. You have far more than your fair share of asshat posts on this board.
I simply asked a question to clarify what you were thinking.
I apologize if you took it personal, but despite believing you are a mental midget, I restrained myself from stating so.
Don't you feel restraint is superior to confrontation ?
And no, this post doesn't relate to Spielman's draft record either; just like yours.

jargomcfargo
03-27-2014, 11:57 PM
This is a fantastic point. I think that the Seahawks and Patriots are VERY good examples of getting everything out of players.

I would love to see our staffs be able to do this more often. I think it might be possible under the new regime.
That is certainly the theme with Zimmer; someone who gets the most out of his players. I expect to see it, and clearly expect to see a positive result in the next 3 years, and quite possibly this year, providing the defense comes together.

tarkenton10
03-28-2014, 08:28 AM
The TOA was for decisions related to the team. Was speilman calling plays on Sunday? No... so clearly each member had their expertise. I find it hard to believe that a guy who had been interviewed multiple times for the complexity of his draft board would give up all those hours to allow a coach to simply pick random players on draft day. Come on, this is a no brainer. They worked together but final say on the draft belonged to the guy who's job it was to scout and draft players. My proof is... Chilly didn't want randy... Randy was on the team. Chilly didn't want Farve, Farve was on the team. Chilly didn't want Rosencopter.... The chopper was on the team. When it came to FA signings and the draft....they worked together but it was Speilman's baby.

I am also sure that if Chilly said he really wanted a player sitting on the draft board that Spielman would have drafted that player for him. So to put the drafts all on him is not realistic given there were two other people with input. I will give you an analogy maybe not a good one but one nonetheless, I am driving with my family and I make the final decision where eat. I want to eat at KFC but my wife and kids want to eat at Wendy's; where do you think we will eat even though it is my decision. He had pressure from the other two to pick their guy in the draft. How many GMs are going to pick guys that the coach didn't want, especially one with as much power as Chilly had at the time? Spielman had a lot of pressure to pick guys he didn't want to pick, that is my opinion of course and we seem to have a difference of opinion.

My reasoning for thinking that he didn't get to pick his own players (or felt the need to pick someone else's player) is by looking at the stark contrast in his drafts before and after his promotion. He had average to above average drafts before his promotion then after his promotion he had two really good drafts IMO. What changed the past two drafts?

singersp
03-28-2014, 08:31 AM
That begs the question: are the Patriots and Seahawks drafting better, or are the players just coached better? It is likely both, but both teams got lucky with Brady and Wilson sliding out of day one of the draft.


This is a fantastic point. I think that the Seahawks and Patriots are VERY good examples of getting everything out of players.

I would love to see our staffs be able to do this more often. I think it might be possible under the new regime.

It would be a fantastic point that it was all the fault of poor coaching & simply not bad selections by Spielman, but IMO, it's not. Had these bad players actually panned out on other teams rosters that took them with better coaching, you'd have a point. Unfortunately I don't think any of those players went on to light up the league anywhere else or even improve significantly.

On the flip side, we have several good players that have excelled under the same tutelage.

marshallvike
03-28-2014, 08:43 AM
How was he not in charge? It was his draft board. His scouting department. Chlly had a say on what the team needed but it was up to him to find the player. Chilly didn't say.... hey lets take this guy over this guy. That was speilman's call. When a position was drafted... he decided who that position was... Think about it. Chilly didn't want Favre... yet Favre was on the team. When it came to player decisions... it was Speilman. The trade for Rosencopter etc.

Chilly was the one to go down and personally escort Farve to the Vikings, not Spielman. Chilly was the one who went down to personally talk to Harvin to ascertain whether he would be a problem child if we drafted him, not Spielman. There are more instances of Chilly having significant input on the draft and free agents but my old mind can't come up with them all right now.

marshallvike
03-28-2014, 08:48 AM
It would be a fantastic point that it was all the fault of poor coaching & simply not bad selections by Spielman, but IMO, it's not. Had these bad players actually panned out on other teams rosters that took them with better coaching, you'd have a point. Unfortunately I don't think any of those players went on to light up the league anywhere else or even improve significantly.

On the flip side, we have several good players that have excelled under the same tutelage.
Once you let the chicken spoil, it's hard for anyone to make a gourmet dinner out of it. Our former staffs let a lot of chickens go bad.

tarkenton10
03-28-2014, 09:14 AM
Chilly was the one to go down and personally escort Farve to the Vikings, not Spielman. Chilly was the one who went down to personally talk to Harvin to ascertain whether he would be a problem child if we drafted him, not Spielman. There are more instances of Chilly having significant input on the draft and free agents but my old mind can't come up with them all right now.

+1

tarkenton10
03-28-2014, 09:15 AM
Once you let the chicken spoil, it's hard for anyone to make a gourmet dinner out of it. Our former staffs let a lot of chickens go bad.

I don't really think that there has been a whole lot of coaching going on in the last two coaching staffs.

kevoncox
03-28-2014, 10:14 AM
I am also sure that if Chilly said he really wanted a player sitting on the draft board that Spielman would have drafted that player for him. So to put the drafts all on him is not realistic given there were two other people with input. I will give you an analogy maybe not a good one but one nonetheless, I am driving with my family and I make the final decision where eat. I want to eat at KFC but my wife and kids want to eat at Wendy's; where do you think we will eat even though it is my decision. He had pressure from the other two to pick their guy in the draft. How many GMs are going to pick guys that the coach didn't want, especially one with as much power as Chilly had at the time? Spielman had a lot of pressure to pick guys he didn't want to pick, that is my opinion of course and we seem to have a difference of opinion.

My reasoning for thinking that he didn't get to pick his own players (or felt the need to pick someone else's player) is by looking at the stark contrast in his drafts before and after his promotion. He had average to above average drafts before his promotion then after his promotion he had two really good drafts IMO. What changed the past two drafts?

That is an excellent point. However, it is one i conceded. If it was between a center and a cb... then of course input was desired on who should be selected but the rankings of the individual players in a position was up to spielman. So in round 2 Speilman selected the centers with round 2 potential. Chilly and Co wasn't going to select random round 5 center and say I want him in round two over the guy Speilman had ranked 3 rounds higher. That's why i said the selection of a position... coach and VP decision... the selection of the player... Spielman.

kevoncox
03-28-2014, 10:18 AM
+1

That's like saying to bake a cake you take it out of the oven.
There is a lot more that goes on before that. Since chilly picked him up.... how does that mean that he was the one that started the process on Favre. That simply means he picked him up.

As for Harvin, I never argued that Chilly didn't have say and input. I simply said that the ranking and grading of players in their positions were done by Speilman. which means he is at fault for selecting a bunch of 5th round Cbs in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. His draft boards... his draft. I also give him all the credit for finding Robison and Griffen in the 4th. However, you can't have it both ways. You can't credit him with great finds and then blame coaches for bust.

tastywaves
03-28-2014, 11:13 AM
That's like saying to bake a cake you take it out of the oven.
There is a lot more that goes on before that. Since chilly picked him up.... how does that mean that he was the one that started the process on Favre. That simply means he picked him up.

As for Harvin, I never argued that Chilly didn't have say and input. I simply said that the ranking and grading of players in their positions were done by Speilman. which means he is at fault for selecting a bunch of 5th round Cbs in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. His draft boards... his draft. I also give him all the credit for finding Robison and Griffen in the 4th. However, you can't have it both ways. You can't credit him with great finds and then blame coaches for bust.

Good to see you giving Spielman some credit, of course, until he hits a home run on every pick he still needs to pick up his game. That is what a fan should demand.

On the whole draft board and ranking thing, do you really believe it is Rick that puts that together by himself? I highly doubt that Rick goes out and evaluates every player and then puts his board together without a lot of input from the scouts and coaches who spend the majority of their time evaluating these players. Rick is the guy that pulls the trigger on draft day and helps coordinate the talent evaluators, but there is a lot of coordination building up to that point.
Starting with the coaching staff telling the talent evaluators (under Spielman) the type of players they are looking for to play in their systems.

tarkenton10
03-28-2014, 11:41 AM
That's like saying to bake a cake you take it out of the oven.
There is a lot more that goes on before that. Since chilly picked him up.... how does that mean that he was the one that started the process on Favre. That simply means he picked him up.

As for Harvin, I never argued that Chilly didn't have say and input. I simply said that the ranking and grading of players in their positions were done by Speilman. which means he is at fault for selecting a bunch of 5th round Cbs in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. His draft boards... his draft. I also give him all the credit for finding Robison and Griffen in the 4th. However, you can't have it both ways. You can't credit him with great finds and then blame coaches for bust.

I tend to blame them all for the finds and the busts, if there is a great find the they should all get the credit, if they fail they are to blame IMO.

drewlovs
03-28-2014, 01:20 PM
Actually I won't. I'm the same guy that was warning about how bad this team was after Peterson's great season when everyone was predicting 12 wins. The fact remains...we are an awful team. That just got a hell of a lot worst. Not every team has a shit load of pro bowlers but we are average to bad at 3-4 positions on the OL. I never fall in love with potential so add 2-4 on the DL. 2 on the LB level, 2/ 4 at the DB level. And we have 1 true WR. Plenty of potential and splash but low production. Our Qb situation is the laughing stock of the league. We simply are not a good team and haven't been one for a long time. 1 good Qb year int he past 7 years is awful.

So even if the Vikings start winning, even up to winning the Super Bowl, you will still maintain the team is shit? That doesn't make any sense at all, unless your glass is so half empty it's a vacuum.

I disagree about our OL totally; I think the bad play we saw last year had more to do with them being unwilling to risk hurt or injury for an idiot QB who was just as likely to throw the ball away or to the other team as one of our receivers. I was a center when I was younger, and let me tell you... that is completely demoralizing. Even if you do your job to perfection, you still might be chasing some CB down the field to prevent the other team from scoring a TD.

We won a few games last year we should not have, in my opinion. To me, that says the team was better than I thought it was, especially under Cassel's leadership. But then, I am an optimist.

marshallvike
03-28-2014, 02:30 PM
That's like saying to bake a cake you take it out of the oven.
There is a lot more that goes on before that. Since chilly picked him up.... how does that mean that he was the one that started the process on Favre. That simply means he picked him up.

As for Harvin, I never argued that Chilly didn't have say and input. I simply said that the ranking and grading of players in their positions were done by Speilman. which means he is at fault for selecting a bunch of 5th round Cbs in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. His draft boards... his draft. I also give him all the credit for finding Robison and Griffen in the 4th. However, you can't have it both ways. You can't credit him with great finds and then blame coaches for bust.
Don't get me wrong Kevon. I am not saying Rick had nothing to do with it. I just do not believe he had sole authority on the draft.
The past two drafts would seem to show that. Leslie certainly did not have as much control in the organization as Chilly did and when Spielman was granted sole control he produced two of the best drafts we have seen in quite some time. Now he has a coach he hired, who seems to have explained exactly what he wants in his players at their respective positions. If Zimmer is as good at developing talent as we believe and have been told he is, Rick is going to start looking like a draft genius because he picked them. Zimmer can make him look very good just as our last couple of staffs made him look mediocre.

kevoncox
03-28-2014, 04:26 PM
So even if the Vikings start winning, even up to winning the Super Bowl, you will still maintain the team is shit? That doesn't make any sense at all, unless your glass is so half empty it's a vacuum.

I disagree about our OL totally; I think the bad play we saw last year had more to do with them being unwilling to risk hurt or injury for an idiot QB who was just as likely to throw the ball away or to the other team as one of our receivers. I was a center when I was younger, and let me tell you... that is completely demoralizing. Even if you do your job to perfection, you still might be chasing some CB down the field to prevent the other team from scoring a TD.

We won a few games last year we should not have, in my opinion. To me, that says the team was better than I thought it was, especially under Cassel's leadership. But then, I am an optimist.

You misunderstood me. I was tlking specifically about our 10 win season. Everyone thought the roster was packed with talent and we needed a few pieces to compete. I said other wise and 6-10, 3-13 and 5-10 speaks about what this roster is really about. I will start saying we have a good roster when we have a good roster. A bad roster can gel and go 11-5 for one season and then be horrible for the next 5 years. Look at the Bucs(i think 2009), won 10 games.... but the win total was not indicative of the team's talent. As their played only 2 teams over .500. The next year the roster imploded and came down to earth. Everyone called it a collapse but in reality they played to their level...coach got fired.

jargomcfargo
03-28-2014, 11:32 PM
You misunderstood me. I was tlking specifically about our 10 win season. Everyone thought the roster was packed with talent and we needed a few pieces to compete. I said other wise and 6-10, 3-13 and 5-10 speaks about what this roster is really about. I will start saying we have a good roster when we have a good roster. A bad roster can gel and go 11-5 for one season and then be horrible for the next 5 years. Look at the Bucs(i think 2009), won 10 games.... but the win total was not indicative of the team's talent. As their played only 2 teams over .500. The next year the roster imploded and came down to earth. Everyone called it a collapse but in reality they played to their level...coach got fired.
They let Winfield and Brinkley go after the 10 win season, and replaced them with players who were worse. That was a swing and miss by Spielman, or who ever, that resulted in the firing of the coaching staff. The coaching was inept, but in reality, it was an organizational failure. I'm hoping Spielman has learned from the past and gets it right; but he's done if things don't go well.