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SharperImage
06-29-2013, 01:47 AM
Do you think the Vikings would be open to Mortgaging the next 3 first round picks to move up to #1 or #2 to take Teddy Bridgewater?

The Redskins gave their future up for RG3. The Redskins still went to the playoffs with a poor offensive line, 1 quality WR and no TE when Fred Davis went down. The QB does make the difference.

The Vikings are LOADED coming into this 2013 year, the only reason the vikes arent in conversation with The 49ers and Seahawks is because Ponder is a huge ?.Ponder's Senior season he almost lost the starting Job to EJ Manuel, but held on because he knew the offense better.

The Vikings will still win 6-8 games even if ponder blows chunks. We have the best RB in the League. 3 Quality WRs. Two great TEs. Solid Oline. Solid FB. Solid Dline. Up and coming LB core. Two shutdown quality CBs. Solid FS. Best Kicker in the NFL, best punter in the NFL draft.

If Ponder blows, Bridgewater could step right in, and probably lead us to the playoffs like RG3 did with Redskins. Bridgewater is suppose to be better than RG3 and Luck. Do you think the vikes would pull the trigger and save the franchises future? Or do we bring in a vet and try to "Make a run"

NodakPaul
06-29-2013, 07:48 AM
Way too much time between now and the draft to speculate one way or the other. There is both a NFL season and a college season yet to be played.

Purple Floyd
06-29-2013, 11:13 AM
No

I repeat- No

Dibbzz
06-29-2013, 02:40 PM
I'd personally would rather have Johnny Football over Bridgewater, but that's just me. Manziel just seems like the complete package who can make plays with both his legs and arm.

Caine
06-29-2013, 06:04 PM
Do you think the Vikings would be open to Mortgaging the next 3 first round picks to move up to #1 or #2 to take Teddy Bridgewater?

As Nodak said, there is a full season to play in both Pro and college ball. Too much can happen between now and then to say who we'll target or who would be available where...


The Redskins gave their future up for RG3. The Redskins still went to the playoffs with a poor offensive line, 1 quality WR and no TE when Fred Davis went down. The QB does make the difference.

Yes, but let's see how good he is after he has a season of tape for opposing teams to study.


The Vikings are LOADED coming into this 2013 year, the only reason the vikes arent in conversation with The 49ers and Seahawks is because Ponder is a huge ?.Ponder's Senior season he almost lost the starting Job to EJ Manuel, but held on because he knew the offense better.

Here I disagree strongly. We aren't "loaded"... Every year someone says this....it's never true.

We have HUGE question marks at WR - only Jennings has proven himself, but the health question mark rides on his head.

We have a hole at LB...

DT...

RT...will Loadholt step up, or is he too far down the McKinney highway?

Which one of our CB's made the Pro-Bowl last season?

Safety?

We're not loaded. We have a lot of guys with the POTENTIAL to be great...but they haven't actually proven themselves to be yet.


The Vikings will still win 6-8 games even if ponder blows chunks. We have the best RB in the League. 3 Quality WRs. Two great TEs. Solid Oline. Solid FB. Solid Dline. Up and coming LB core. Two shutdown quality CBs. Solid FS. Best Kicker in the NFL, best punter in the NFL draft.

Again, we will win 6 games on AP alone. But I seriously think you over estimate how good the rest of the team is.

we managed only 10 ints last season but gave up almost 4000 passing yards. The only thing that "shut down" was our ability to stop opposing teams from passing.

Wr - covered that already.

TE....Rudolf is damn good...who else?

O-Line....Again, Loadholt. Huge question mark.

FB...do we even use one? No...seriously...do we? Our FB (Felton) accounted for ZERO carries last season.

DL - getting better...but Kevin Williams isn't getting younger, and Jared Allen dropped off a LOT last season. Will they return to form or are they on the downward slide?

LB - I like Greenway, but the rest are either stop-gap players or unproven rookies.

K - I don't know about best in the NFL, but I sure do like having him here.

P - I don't ever bank on rookies. Too many look amazing in the draft then disappear.

So, again, based upon PROVEN players - not rookies who haven't shown jack - where do we REALLY stand?

Truth is, we have the POTENTIAL to go the distance...we also have the POTENTIAL to go 2-14. But it isn't ALL on Ponder. A lot of our players have to prove themselves...as do our coaches.


If Ponder blows, Bridgewater could step right in, and probably lead us to the playoffs like RG3 did with Redskins. Bridgewater is suppose to be better than RG3 and Luck. Do you think the vikes would pull the trigger and save the franchises future? Or do we bring in a vet and try to "Make a run"

Leinart was supposed to be great. So was Quinn. So was Leaf.

IF Ponder crashes, I expect that we'll see Cassell starting. And, provided he doesn't implode, my guess is that management will look to him to be "The Guy". Mortgaging our future isn't something Minnesota does very often....and depending upon how well we do, will determine the cost of that mortgage. We'd have to stink pretty bad and have a real early pick for the Vikes to pull out all the stops for the #1 overall. IMHO.

Caine

Randy Moss
06-29-2013, 10:37 PM
FB...do we even use one? No...seriously...do we? Our FB (Felton) accounted for ZERO carries last season.


Are you being serious?

Dibbzz
06-30-2013, 02:23 AM
Are you being serious?

He's right: Jerome Felton Stats, News, Videos, Highlights, Pictures, Bio - Minnesota Vikings - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/11369/jerome-felton)

Culpepper_4717
06-30-2013, 04:17 AM
He's right: Jerome Felton Stats, News, Videos, Highlights, Pictures, Bio - Minnesota Vikings - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/11369/jerome-felton)

AD wouldn't have got all those yards without felton leading the block, no need to give felton the ball when we have THE BEST RB IN THE GAME.

battleaxe4cheese
06-30-2013, 08:45 AM
Depending on how are season goes, we may not have to trade up at all. If Ponder struggles to the point where Castle takes over, we're in big trouble at that point.

Castle is not all of the sudden going to light it up, though I could be wrong about him. He reminds me of a less savvy Brad Johnson.

I am thinking 1-4 or 2-5 might be bad enough to sit Ponder. At that point we're going to be digging ourselves out of a whole with..... Matt Castle? I highly doubt it.

Things could rapidly spiral out of control. I think teams are going to go all in on Adrian Peterson this year no matter what. Ponder and or Castle are going to have to get it done through the air.

I think the tuck rule is going to hurt us big time this year. I hope I am wrong.

Lastly, I think the loss of Winfield is going to be huge in the run department. He had a nose and was a beast of a tackler. Yeah his coverage skills were not good but he was a huge part of our success in the secondary.

That one is going to come back to haunt us.

singersp
06-30-2013, 08:50 AM
RT...will Loadholt step up, or is he too far down the McKinney highway?

O-Line....Again, Loadholt. Huge question mark.

Caine

Apparently you & I are the only ones here that think Loadholt is overrated

Ranger
06-30-2013, 08:58 AM
Apparently you & I are the only ones here that think Loadholt is overrated

He's a slightly above average right tackle.

i_bleed_purple
06-30-2013, 09:24 AM
He's a slightly above average right tackle.

He's a slightly above average for a STARTER. THe average right tackle lasts two years and is out of the league.

singersp
06-30-2013, 09:41 AM
He's a slightly above average for a STARTER. THe average right tackle lasts two years and is out of the league.

So you believe Ryan Cook & Marcus Johnson were above average linemen because they remained in the league for several seasons?

Purple Floyd
06-30-2013, 12:43 PM
Marty thought Ryan Cook should have been in the pro bowl.

Caine
06-30-2013, 06:13 PM
Marty also thought jackson was a great QB in the making.....

Caine

Purple Floyd
06-30-2013, 09:31 PM
He is- just give him a few more years....

mountainviking
07-01-2013, 10:11 AM
IF Ponder struggles, we will see what Cassel can do. He was pretty good that one year with the Patsies, with a good team around him. With AP taking the load, he wouldn't be asked to do too much, and may prove to be a good game manager type. Really, I think Ponder has a good chance of proving to be a good game manager too, so, looks obvious to me, that's the gameplan, and, I think it should be, after all, we have the best RB in the game today, and possibly ever, so why not give that man the damn ball!

The loss of Winny will be felt, however, as great as he is in run support, you have to admit that his size was a liability vs. the large WRs we face regularly in the NFC North: Calvin, Marshall, Jordy etc. How many downs was he right on his guy for the tackle, yet couldn't stop a jump ball catch for the first down!?? And, hate to say it, but he was beginning to regularly wear down late season.

And, Smith should be better in his 2nd year, and the Raymond-Sanford competition opposite him has also brought better play out of that side. Perhaps, better man-press coverage outside with some safety support inside can lead to improved pass defense, despite missing the mighty Winny...hopefully, maybe!? ;)

As for the front of our D, I'm not thinking we're going to miss Brinkley, and our DL is all returning this year, and all playing for a new contract next year...my gut feeling, is that the DL is going to be extra fired up! Basically, I suspect our defense to remain strong, as long as our offense can get first downs and stay on the field.

Like it or not, old school, time of possession/field position football can still win games in this league, specially if you have a superstar RB, a solid Defense, and maybe even improving Special Teams!

SKOL VIKINGS!!!!!

Marrdro
07-01-2013, 12:38 PM
Marty thought Ryan Cook should have been in the pro bowl.

Be careful what you say. I'm always watching. My opinions on Cook were always that the Coaches shouldn't have started him. One of the many things I pinged on the Chiller for that most of you ignored.

Marrdro
07-01-2013, 12:40 PM
Marty also thought jackson was a great QB in the making.....

Caine
Never said great. Just like Ponder, I saw some good in him and just wanted him to have a chance with a full up round team. To date, neither has although Ponder will be given a team pretty close to it this year and won't get that excuse from me.

Judging by what a certain D-coord said this year about what is going to happen to the new "Running QB's" I have a sneaky feeling TJ might get that chance as well. :)

Marrdro
07-01-2013, 12:47 PM
IF Ponder struggles, we will see what Cassel can do. He was pretty good that one year with the Patsies, with a good team around him. With AP taking the load, he wouldn't be asked to do too much, and may prove to be a good game manager type. Really, I think Ponder has a good chance of proving to be a good game manager too, so, looks obvious to me, that's the gameplan, and, I think it should be, after all, we have the best RB in the game today, and possibly ever, so why not give that man the damn ball!

The loss of Winny will be felt, however, as great as he is in run support, you have to admit that his size was a liability vs. the large WRs we face regularly in the NFC North: Calvin, Marshall, Jordy etc. How many downs was he right on his guy for the tackle, yet couldn't stop a jump ball catch for the first down!?? And, hate to say it, but he was beginning to regularly wear down late season.

And, Smith should be better in his 2nd year, and the Raymond-Sanford competition opposite him has also brought better play out of that side. Perhaps, better man-press coverage outside with some safety support inside can lead to improved pass defense, despite missing the mighty Winny...hopefully, maybe!? ;)

As for the front of our D, I'm not thinking we're going to miss Brinkley, and our DL is all returning this year, and all playing for a new contract next year...my gut feeling, is that the DL is going to be extra fired up! Basically, I suspect our defense to remain strong, as long as our offense can get first downs and stay on the field.

Like it or not, old school, time of possession/field position football can still win games in this league, specially if you have a superstar RB, a solid Defense, and maybe even improving Special Teams!

SKOL VIKINGS!!!!!

Ole Mountain Man still putting out top shelf stuff.

Only thing I disagree with you on old friend is the whole Cassell discussion point. You are correct in that the Pats team carried him for a season, thus making him look better than he really was. I'm just not sure that this team can do that for him.

I think its gonna take a whole lot for Cassell to supplant Christian when it comes to playing.

Quick question, here is something I posted on a FB page the other day.....rank the QB's.

Quote
Which QB you want based on stats........First column is accuracy by distance.....BLOS = Behind Line of Scrimmage, rest are yards.

----------A-----B------C-------D------E
BLOS --80.6---75----83.3--82.2---79.3
1-10- --71.6---72.8--65.7--72.9---65.6
11-20--56.8---43.5--46.3--54.2---62.7
21-30--44.4---34----21.7--39.5---61.1
31-40--35.3---40----0------55.6---0
40+----16.7---0-----66.7---14.3---30.8Unquote
For those that played on the FB page don't spoil it for the rest that are interested.

Marrdro
07-01-2013, 12:54 PM
Back to the original posters question.....How in the can can you really project if Ponder isn't going to pan out this year?

Do you think he isn't going to progress like he has done the last 2 years?
Do you expect him to become some sort of HOF'r after 3 years?

Comeon people, QB's just don't roll in off the street and become perfect leaders of a team at this level. Sure we've see a few of them come in and excite the heck out of us with their instant flash but they only let you down the next year after D-coords get some tape on them.

Christian has done exactly what most thought he would do regardless of were he was picked. Show that he was a 2 or 3 year project that should be learning from the bench instead of from the field. And after he wasn't allowed to learn from the bench he played very inconsistently like any other would for cripes sake.

And now when I come to spend some time on PPO (which I cherish), I find out that you all want to move on to some kid that you want to draft next year who won't have any more success or make an fewer mistakes in this offense than your current QB has over the last 2 years.

Buck up people. We are watching a QB learn his job on the fly. He's going to make mistakes. Its the nature of the beast but he will keep getting better and better each and every year he is given a chance.

Purple Floyd
07-01-2013, 07:35 PM
Be careful what you say. I'm always watching. My opinions on Cook were always that the Coaches shouldn't have started him. One of the many things I pinged on the Chiller for that most of you ignored.

Be careful what I say? Hell, it gets lonely here and if I have to post that drivel to get your ass back here you can bet I am going to do it. It;s not the same with you not posting my friend.

singersp
07-02-2013, 06:58 AM
Back to the original posters question.....How in the can can you really project if Ponder isn't going to pan out this year?

Do you think he isn't going to progress like he has done the last 2 years?
Do you expect him to become some sort of HOF'r after 3 years?

Comeon people, QB's just don't roll in off the street and become perfect leaders of a team at this level. Sure we've see a few of them come in and excite the heck out of us with their instant flash but they only let you down the next year after D-coords get some tape on them.

Let us down?

Do you think they aren't going to progress like you think Ponder or other QB's have?
Do you expect them to become some sort of HOF'r after 3 years?

How many more year do you think the Jets should stick with Sanchez? He should be nearing his prime this year

How many years do you think it will be before Tebow takes Brady's job?

NodakPaul
07-02-2013, 09:45 AM
Buck up people. We are watching a QB learn his job on the fly. He's going to make mistakes. Its the nature of the beast but he will keep getting better and better each and every year he is given a chance.

Just getting better each year isn't enough in this league. He also needs to progress at a rate that is comparable to his peers. Like it or not, as a starting quarterback in the NFL, his peers are a pretty damn talented group of people.

Last year he did get better compared to his rookie year. There is (or there should be) no debate on that. However, some will say that he did not progress as much as he should have, and some will say that he did. This early in his career I can respect both opinions. I personally feel that he did not progress as much as he should have, but I am willing to give him another chance. It is a short leash though. Sitting behind him is a QB who is only 3 years removed to a helluva season...

jmcdon00
07-02-2013, 11:33 AM
Just getting better each year isn't enough in this league. He also needs to progress at a rate that is comparable to his peers. Like it or not, as a starting quarterback in the NFL, his peers are a pretty damn talented group of people.

Last year he did get better compared to his rookie year. There is (or there should be) no debate on that. However, some will say that he did not progress as much as he should have, and some will say that he did. This early in his career I can respect both opinions. I personally feel that he did not progress as much as he should have, but I am willing to give him another chance. It is a short leash though. Sitting behind him is a QB who is only 3 years removed to a helluva season...
And 1 year removed from a helluva bad season.

Marrdro
07-02-2013, 01:20 PM
Just getting better each year isn't enough in this league. He also needs to progress at a rate that is comparable to his peers. Like it or not, as a starting quarterback in the NFL, his peers are a pretty damn talented group of people.

Last year he did get better compared to his rookie year. There is (or there should be) no debate on that. However, some will say that he did not progress as much as he should have, and some will say that he did. This early in his career I can respect both opinions. I personally feel that he did not progress as much as he should have, but I am willing to give him another chance. It is a short leash though. Sitting behind him is a QB who is only 3 years removed to a helluva season...
Who do you qualify as his peers? Last years class? Lets see if they are a flash in the pan (ala Newton, Sanchez, Bradford, etc etc etc) or are they the real deal. Heck there is even talk that Dalton isn't gonna make just like there is talk of Freeman is a bust.

Even though I agree that he probably didn't progress as much as most fans want him to, how do you really quantify how fast he should progress? Pretty hard when he should still be sitting on the bench IMHO just like they used to grow them.

For me, I look at indicators were it counts and not total yards like that is some sort of benchmark. Those indicators can be found if one looks for yourself or if one sees articles such as these (which don't seem to get populated on here to much)......


However, when it came to red-zone passing – passes thrown inside the opponent’s 20-yard line, only six NFL quarterbacks threw more passes than Ponder’s 75 – Drew Brees (http://min.scout.com/a.z?s=63&p=8&c=1&nid=6154942) (102), Matt Ryan (http://min.scout.com/a.z?s=63&p=8&c=1&nid=6670424) (92), Peyton Manning (http://min.scout.com/a.z?s=63&p=8&c=1&nid=7041675) (88), Tom Brady (http://min.scout.com/a.z?s=63&p=8&c=1&nid=7039263) (87), Matthew Stafford (http://min.scout.com/a.z?s=63&p=8&c=1&nid=6725740) (87) and Eli Manning (http://min.scout.com/a.z?s=63&p=8&c=1&nid=7036490) (84).

How impressive is that number? He tied with two other quarterbacks with 75 red zone passes – Aaron Rodgers (http://min.scout.com/a.z?s=63&p=8&c=1&nid=6944168) and Tony Romo (http://min.scout.com/a.z?s=63&p=8&c=1&nid=6601378).

It doesn’t end there for Ponder. His 44 red zone completions ranked sixth, behind only Brees (66), Ryan (59), Peyton Manning (52), Brady (52) and Rodgers (47) – pretty rare air indeed, since four of them have won Super Bowls and the other (Ryan) is playoff-tested.

Perhaps most surprising was that Ponder threw 18 red zone touchdowns, which tied him for eighth among NFL QBs. The only quarterbacks who threw more were the same usual cast of suspects and a couple of new faces – Brees (34), Peyton Manning (28), Rodgers (26), Ryan (25), Brady (24), Josh Freeman (http://min.scout.com/a.z?s=63&p=8&c=1&nid=6727002) (21) and Andy Dalton (http://min.scout.com/a.z?s=63&p=8&c=1&nid=6678501) (20).

Scout.com: Ponder produces best in the red zone (http://min.scout.com/2/1303929.html)

Could it be that the main source of info like this doesn't post it because he's a bit skewed on the youngster? LOL....:)

Anyways, sure seems like a very nice progression, especially were it counts, if you ask me. Were are the talented "Peers" that you speak of in that area?

Marrdro
07-02-2013, 01:38 PM
Let us down?

Do you think they aren't going to progress like you think Ponder or other QB's have?
Do you expect them to become some sort of HOF'r after 3 years?

How many more year do you think the Jets should stick with Sanchez? He should be nearing his prime this year

How many years do you think it will be before Tebow takes Brady's job?

What?

Sanchez. I'm torn on Sanchez. First, is it him alone or is it because he has no OL other than a C, no running game and absolutely no one to throw to? Pretty tough to blame it all on him, well unless you go by what ESPN uses as a bench mark.

Teblow is there to play TE, not QB. Seriously, I can't believe you asked me that question.

NodakPaul
07-02-2013, 01:40 PM
Who do you qualify as his peers? Last years class? Lets see if they are a flash in the pan (ala Newton, Sanchez, Bradford, etc etc etc) or are they the real deal. Heck there is even talk that Dalton isn't gonna make just like there is talk of Freeman is a bust.

Even though I agree that he probably didn't progress as much as most fans want him to, how do you really quantify how fast he should progress? Pretty hard when he should still be sitting on the bench IMHO just like they used to grow them.

For me, I look at indicators were it counts and not total yards like that is some sort of benchmark. Those indicators can be found if one looks for yourself or if one sees articles such as these (which don't seem to get populated on here to much)......



Scout.com: Ponder produces best in the red zone (http://min.scout.com/2/1303929.html)

Could it be that the main source of info like this doesn't post it because he's a bit skewed on the youngster? LOL....:)

Anyways, sure seems like a very nice progression, especially were it counts, if you ask me. Were are the talented "Peers" that you speak of in that area?

I consider his peers among all of the starting QBs in the league at the same point in their respective careers. Yes, it is a high bar to set, but that is what it takes to be a successful starting QB in the NFL today. Did he progress enough for me to believe that he will be a top ten QB in the next few years? Because that is what I think we need to have to win a super bowl. While it is possible to win one without one (aka Dilfer), the vast majority have had one. That is how the game is won in this day and age.

Ponder DID progress, no arguments here. In fact, he progressed nicely, especially in a lot of important areas. I don't think he really regressed in any. But again, I ask... did he progress enough for me to feel like he will be a top ten QB in the next few years. I do not think he did. And that means he has his work cut out for him this year.

Is it possible? Yes. Do I hope he breaks out? Absolutely! Do I think it will happen? Sadly no. And if it doesn't then we need to continue looking. I don't want to turn him into another 5 year experiment like we did with Jackson. I would rather move on and take the risk of moving on too quickly, than wait and waste any more seasons than necessary.

He will start the season as the starter. It is his job to lose.

Marrdro
07-02-2013, 01:41 PM
And 1 year removed from a helluva bad season.

Exactly. Anyone who thinks Cassell will be any better than Ponder is talking crazy. Don't get me wrong, I think he can come in and be just as successful as Ponder this year but to what end? Thats about all your gonna get out of that cat. Unlike younger QB's, my decision has been made on the guy about years 6 or 7 vice what some want to do with Ponder (year 3).

Marrdro
07-02-2013, 01:42 PM
Be careful what I say? Hell, it gets lonely here and if I have to post that drivel to get your ass back here you can bet I am going to do it. It;s not the same with you not posting my friend.

LOL, your way to kind. We are down to 2 at work now. Doesn't leave me much idle time when we had 8 of us. :)

vikinggreg
07-03-2013, 07:58 AM
Who do you qualify as his peers? Last years class? Lets see if they are a flash in the pan (ala Newton, Sanchez, Bradford, etc etc etc) or are they the real deal. Heck there is even talk that Dalton isn't gonna make just like there is talk of Freeman is a bust.

Even though I agree that he probably didn't progress as much as most fans want him to, how do you really quantify how fast he should progress? Pretty hard when he should still be sitting on the bench IMHO just like they used to grow them.

For me, I look at indicators were it counts and not total yards like that is some sort of benchmark. Those indicators can be found if one looks for yourself or if one sees articles such as these (which don't seem to get populated on here to much)......



Scout.com: Ponder produces best in the red zone (http://min.scout.com/2/1303929.html)

Could it be that the main source of info like this doesn't post it because he's a bit skewed on the youngster? LOL....:)

Anyways, sure seems like a very nice progression, especially were it counts, if you ask me. Were are the talented "Peers" that you speak of in that area?You stopped before his downside
It may seem surprising on a team with the league’s pre-eminent running back that Ponder would be a top-10 guy in the key statistical categories of red zone passing. However, there was a downside. A big downside. Ponder was near the very bottom of the league in one critical category – interceptions. Only two quarterbacks threw more – Stafford and Mark Sanchez (http://min.scout.com/a.z?s=63&p=8&c=1&nid=6988457).So he could be a top-10 guy if it wasn't for a problem and again there are consistency issues.

singersp
07-03-2013, 08:14 AM
Teblow is there to play TE, not QB. Seriously, I can't believe you asked me that question.

I can. You're the one claiming QB's need more time & can't become HOFers over night. Perhaps he needs just as much starting time as you feel Ponder needs. Afterall, QB's don't all progress at the same rate. That is your way of thinking on QB's.

Marrdro
07-03-2013, 09:24 AM
I can. You're the one claiming QB's need more time & can't become HOFers over night. Perhaps he needs just as much starting time as you feel Ponder needs. Afterall, QB's don't all progress at the same rate. That is your way of thinking on QB's.
That is my thinking on QBs. At least the ones I consider QB's. As of yet Teblow hasn't shown me any indication that he can play QB at this level.

Marrdro
07-03-2013, 09:37 AM
You stopped before his downside So he could be a top-10 guy if it wasn't for a problem and again there are consistency issues.
I readily point out his consistency in almost all posts. Just because I left it off of one post and you caught it.....:)

I forget, I need to bring my "A" game to this site. :)

If you look at his issues (inconsistency) you will see (mostly focused on INT's) that his 12 wasn't really that bad compared to the other QB's.....

2012 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/interceptions)

And then, if you break it down further......8 of them came in 4 games (Tenn-2/Wash-2/Ari-2/GB-2) of which we split 2 Wins/2 Losses. A real good indicator that we play as a team and that his mistakes won't necessarily kills us each and every week.

Christian Ponder Game By Game Stats and Performance - Minnesota Vikings - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/13966/christian-ponder)

Then again, we could have him throwing INT's at the rate of the guys ahead of him (Bree's, Romo, Luck, Stafford, Weeden, Dalton, Eli, Rivers, Palmer, Cutler, Ryan, Bradford.....:)

singersp
07-03-2013, 10:17 AM
For me, I look at indicators were it counts and not total yards like that is some sort of benchmark. Those indicators can be found if one looks for yourself or if one sees articles such as these (which don't seem to get populated on here to much)......

Scout.com: Ponder produces best in the red zone (http://min.scout.com/2/1303929.html)

Could it be that the main source of info like this doesn't post it because he's a bit skewed on the youngster? LOL....:)

Anyways, sure seems like a very nice progression, especially were it counts, if you ask me. Were are the talented "Peers" that you speak of in that area?

One has to be careful on how those stats are used/interpreted. First off, Ponder’s average pass inside the 20 was 3 yards with his longest being 9 yards. Secondly, just because he ranked 6th for completions inside the 20 doesn’t make him better. If he throws 3-4 completions in the red zone before they score a TD or have to kick a FG & other QB’s throw 1 or 2 passes & there in, how does that make Ponder a better QB?. It doesn’t. It just means he completed 44 passes in the red zone out of 75 attempts (59%).

But you’re going to say, “But what about Ponder tieing for 8th with 18 redzone TD’s?” . Again, a lot of other QB’s may have fewer within the redzone due to the fact they score their TD’s from outside of the redzone. That is why when it comes to number of TD’s thrown, Ponder ranks 23rd amongst all QB’s with 18 while the top 12 threw between 26 & 43 TD’s.

What Scout also fails to mention, as do you, is how Ponder ranks for TD’s thrown from outside the redzone. Can you say Dead Fucking Last? Ponder threw 18 TD’s last year. According to Scout.com all 18 were from within the redzone, 14 of those 18 came from within the 10 yard line. That means 0 not even 1 TD was thrown from outside the redzone, including any of the 3 40+ yarders you like to brag about went for a TD.

You’re right, by bringing up the TD’s Ponder threw inside the 20 & ignoring TD’s thrown outside the redzone, his article is skewed on the youngster.

singersp
07-03-2013, 11:01 AM
If you look at his issues (inconsistency) you will see (mostly focused on INT's) that his 12 wasn't really that bad compared to the other QB's.....

2012 NFL Player Passing Stats - National Football League - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/interceptions)

Instead of looking at just the number of INT's, you might want to look at the TD to INT ratio or the number of passes to INT ratio & consider the average distance thrown per pass.

mountainviking
07-03-2013, 11:21 AM
Instead of looking at just the number of INT's, you might want to look at the TD to INT ratio or the number of passes to INT ratio & consider the average distance thrown per pass.

I think its pretty safe to say that the average distance thrown per pass is heavily influenced by the coaches decisions that were based on who there was to throw to and how open they might be.

And, I agree, the TD/INT ratio is one of the most important stats for QBs...it is also one that is very likely to improve when you're talking about a guy with only 1.5 years of experience who has finally been given better outside weapons to work with.

Purple Floyd
07-03-2013, 04:41 PM
I just want to see us take more shots at the end zone once we get inside the 50 and to the 35. It seems for years we see teams doing that sort of thing and for the one year brett was here he would do it but other than that we get past the 50 then try to run the ball, stall out inside the 30 once the defense tightens up and then settle for the FG.

For the love of god when you cross the 45 take one shot down the sidelines to give the defense something to think about.

i_bleed_purple
07-03-2013, 05:00 PM
I just want to see us take more shots at the end zone once we get inside the 50 and to the 35. It seems for years we see teams doing that sort of thing and for the one year brett was here he would do it but other than that we get past the 50 then try to run the ball, stall out inside the 30 once the defense tightens up and then settle for the FG.

For the love of god when you cross the 45 take one shot down the sidelines to give the defense something to think about.

Better be careful, Marty will think you're wishing for the aerial attack of the late 90s. Pretty soon he'll be posting how you wished we have a receiving fullback.

Purple Floyd
07-03-2013, 07:26 PM
Considering how tepid our passing game has been for the majority of the last decade I would have no problem with anyone who wanted to see us go after the type of talent that led to that offense.

JPPT1974
07-03-2013, 08:02 PM
Ponder needs to produce. As the team can't rely upon Adrian Peterson to carry the load all the time, every single time. It is on Ponder also to pull his weight. Just needs to find his rhythem.

kevoncox
07-03-2013, 08:08 PM
There are so many issues with stats and that's why I hate to post them. For instance, Ponder was near the top in TD passes in the Redzone. That can be read that he doesn't throw many that go longer than 20 yards. So a QB of similar TD numbers as him (18 i think) lost out to him because they had a few 30 yarders, a 50 and 60 yarder. Of course he comes out smelling like roses because the guys infront of him have thrown for 24+ tds and the 6 or so deep ball TDs that are taken away from this redzone stat aren't enough to place them past the none deep ball completing offense we run.

We should also add that Ponder has AD in the redzone, so teams are expecting the run, which makes the PA pass so simple to complete.
When it's all said and done, lets not proclaim, him king of the redzone just yet.

kevoncox
07-03-2013, 08:14 PM
One has to be careful on how those stats are used/interpreted. First off, Ponder’s average pass inside the 20 was 3 yards with his longest being 9 yards. Secondly, just because he ranked 6th for completions inside the 20 doesn’t make him better. If he throws 3-4 completions in the red zone before they score a TD or have to kick a FG & other QB’s throw 1 or 2 passes & there in, how does that make Ponder a better QB?. It doesn’t. It just means he completed 44 passes in the red zone out of 75 attempts (59%).

But you’re going to say, “But what about Ponder tieing for 8th with 18 redzone TD’s?” . Again, a lot of other QB’s may have fewer within the redzone due to the fact they score their TD’s from outside of the redzone. That is why when it comes to number of TD’s thrown, Ponder ranks 23rd amongst all QB’s with 18 while the top 12 threw between 26 & 43 TD’s.

What Scout also fails to mention, as do you, is how Ponder ranks for TD’s thrown from outside the redzone. Can you say Dead Fucking Last? Ponder threw 18 TD’s last year. According to Scout.com all 18 were from within the redzone, 14 of those 18 came from within the 10 yard line. That means 0, not 1 was thrown from outside the redzone, including any of the 3 40+ yarders you like to brag about went for a TD.

You’re right, by bringing up the TD’s Ponder threw inside the 20 & ignoring TD’s thrown outside the redzone, his article is skewed on the youngster.

Very accurate. Summed up almost everything I wanted to say.
Its' like the ELI comparison. His division was brutal his first 2 years and s what their schedule ( AFC North)
We have played the easier of several conferences (depleted afc south)

singersp
07-04-2013, 08:07 AM
I just want to see us take more shots at the end zone once we get inside the 50 and to the 35. It seems for years we see teams doing that sort of thing and for the one year brett was here he would do it but other than that we get past the 50 then try to run the ball, stall out inside the 30 once the defense tightens up and then settle for the FG.

For the love of god when you cross the 45 take one shot down the sidelines to give the defense something to think about.

Marrdro will tell you we don't do that because we are a WCO team (even though we did it with Favre) and are a dink & dunk team only. Ergo, he thinks Ponder's the guy because he's highly accurate under 10 yards & that's all we need.

What he fails to realize is that a QB who can throw more accurately than Ponder above 10 yards, can also throw pretty damn accurately below 10 yards as well. With a QB that can do both, options are wide open to throw short, mid-range or deep. With a QB like Ponder, you're limited to a much shorter pass with any kind of accuracy.

singersp
07-04-2013, 08:10 AM
Ron Jaworski Doesn’t Think Much of Christian Ponder


Ponder needs to make significant improvements as a pocket passer. Surprisingly, with Adrian Peterson in the backfield, he was not efficient off play-action. Ponder also had a tendency to be a beat late with his throws. At this point, he doesn’t see the whole field with clarity and that led to too many throws into the teeth of the coverage.

And he must execute versus the blitz much better than he did in 2012.

You know what statistic really bothered me? Ponder had only 28 completions of 20 yards or more — by far the fewest of any 16-game starter

Ron Jaworski Doesn't Think Much of Christian Ponder - The Viking Age - A Minnesota Vikings Fan Site - News, Blogs, Opinion and more. (http://thevikingage.com/2013/07/03/ron-jaworski-doesnt-think-much-of-christian-ponder/)

Purple Floyd
07-04-2013, 08:24 AM
Marrdro will tell you we don't do that because we are a WCO team (even though we did it with Favre) and are a dink & dunk team only. Ergo, he thinks Ponder's the guy because he's highly accurate under 10 yards & that's all we need.

What he fails to realize is that a QB who can throw more accurately than Ponder above 10 yards, can also throw pretty damn accurately below 10 yards as well. With a QB that can do both, options are wide open to throw short, mid-range or deep. With a QB like Ponder, you're limited to a much shorter pass with any kind of accuracy.

How is Ponder the only QB you brought up? You could have named your homeboy TJ, Brad Johnson or any other QB we have had under center since Culpepper with the exception of Brett. Other than him we have had NO QB who has been taking shots like that since what, 2005? Think of that- nearly a damn decade of futility. That is not caused by Ponder. It may be a flag he has picked up and carried but it is either a product of a FO philosophy or a failure of the FO to address it. Jackson had a very strong arm but still didn't take shots because he had no accuracy and no ability to properly read a defense and put the ball where it needed to be. McNabb had a very strong arm but still threw worm burners in our system.

Purple Floyd
07-04-2013, 08:26 AM
Ron Jaworski Doesn’t Think Much of Christian Ponder



Ron Jaworski Doesn't Think Much of Christian Ponder - The Viking Age - A Minnesota Vikings Fan Site - News, Blogs, Opinion and more. (http://thevikingage.com/2013/07/03/ron-jaworski-doesnt-think-much-of-christian-ponder/)
That was a pretty accurate break down. That better be fixed already or he will not be long for the team.

singersp
07-04-2013, 09:03 AM
How is Ponder the only QB you brought up? You could have named your homeboy TJ, Brad Johnson or any other QB we have had under center since Culpepper with the exception of Brett. Other than him we have had NO QB who has been taking shots like that since what, 2005? Think of that- nearly a damn decade of futility. That is not caused by Ponder. It may be a flag he has picked up and carried but it is either a product of a FO philosophy or a failure of the FO to address it. Jackson had a very strong arm but still didn't take shots because he had no accuracy and no ability to properly read a defense and put the ball where it needed to be. McNabb had a very strong arm but still threw worm burners in our system.

1. I was keeping it recent
2. Because Ponder has thrown significantly less passes over 30 yards than any of our previous QBs like the ones you mentioned. But if you want to go there......

Passes thrown over 30 yards;

2006: Johnson took 27 shots over 30 yards in 15 games or 1.8 per game

2007: Jackson took 20 shots over 30 yards in 12 games or 1.7 per game

2009: Favre took 23 shots over 30 yards in 16 games or 1.4 per game

2011: McNabb took 11 shots over 30 yards in 6 games or 1.8 per game

2012: Ponder took 11 shots over 30 yards in 16 games or 0.7 per game

So actually, Johnson, Jackson & McNabb took more shots over 30 yards per game than Favre did.

The point is, with Ponder, the Vikings took significantly less. 0.7 attempts of 30+ yards per game. 1/2 or more less than what Favre or the others took. The worm burner as you call him, took just as man 30+ yard shots in 6 games, than Ponder did in 16.

Purple Floyd
07-04-2013, 09:16 AM
Those stats were how far the ball traveled in the air whether they were caught or not?

One way or the other we are still talking less than 2 per game per year in nearly a decade. That seems low to me.

singersp
07-04-2013, 09:38 AM
Those stats were how far the ball traveled in the air whether they were caught or not?

One way or the other we are still talking less than 2 per game per year in nearly a decade. That seems low to me.

Yes, it's how far the ball traveled in the air whether they were caught or not because we are talking about taking those long shots.

Taking less than 2 per game is low to me too, but what's even lower is taking less than 1 shot per game.

Purple Floyd
07-04-2013, 10:26 AM
I think it's safe to say when Webb took over in the playoffs that number didn't trend upward.

Purple Floyd
07-04-2013, 10:33 AM
Those stats were how far the ball traveled in the air whether they were caught or not?

One way or the other we are still talking less than 2 per game per year in nearly a decade. That seems low to me.

Yes, it's how far the ball traveled in the air whether they were caught or not because we are talking about taking those long shots.

Taking less than 2 per game is low to me too, but what's even lower is taking less than 1 shot per game.


I seem to remember when we drafted Kslil that the rubes were saying he would give ponder so much time yo throw the ball and the WRs so much time to run their routes that the passing game would flourish, doesn't seem to be panning out. Maybe they should have done something to fix the QB spot instead.

Ranger
07-04-2013, 11:44 AM
I like Ponder and think he's a good kid. I think he has talent. He has weapons.

If he has more sub-100 yard games (!!!!!), he can go fuck off in free agency or with some other team. I'm pretty sure Steve DeBerg was tossing more than 100 yards a game with a goddamn cast on his throwing hand, playing Marty ball with the Schott.

Like I said, I'm not closing the book on the kid, but any more sub-100 yard games and I'm done defending him at work.

Ranger
07-04-2013, 11:45 AM
I'm sure he'll lose a lot of sleep over that threat.

jargomcfargo
07-04-2013, 12:01 PM
Musgrave seems to play it safe when he knows he can attempt a field goal and doesn't take a lot of chances with Ponder's arm in those situations. To me that seems indicative of a lack of trust by Musgrave.
The biggest negative for Ponder is his response to pressure. He seems to be that NFL caliber QB when he has time to throw, but makes poor choices when pressured.
That should improve with better pass blocking, better receivers, and more experience reading defenses.
But right now he is a QB that can be rattled.
The best NFL QB's can burn the defense when they blitz. Ponder has yet to reach that level.
I keep hearing people say he can " make all the throws", so I can only assume the problem is between his ears. If he can remain calm when pressured, I believe he could have a much better year.

SharperImage
07-04-2013, 10:43 PM
We are the only team who runs a pure WCO. Bears, Tampa, Seattle, Colts, KC, Arizona, Pitt all run a WCO but they all mix it up with Run N Gun. When Bevell had Favre he had the second offense. When bevell had tjack here and Seattle his offense sucked. He gets russell wilson and his offense is good again. Musgrave needs to let it fly with ponder, and if he doesnt make it, lets move on.

marshallvike
07-05-2013, 07:51 AM
I like Ponder and think he's a good kid. I think he has talent. He has weapons.

If he has more sub-100 yard games (!!!!!), he can go fuck off in free agency or with some other team. I'm pretty sure Steve DeBerg was tossing more than 100 yards a game with a goddamn cast on his throwing hand, playing Marty ball with the Schott.

Like I said, I'm not closing the book on the kid, but any more sub-100 yard games and I'm done defending him at work.

I'm with you on this ranger. I have faith that this will be the season he steps it up. Late last season it looked like he was more comfortable with the speed of the game. He wasn't throwing behind the receivers as has been his way prior to that. Especially throwing on the move. If however he does not come out and show marked improvement, I will jump on the "Start Cassell" bandwagon that will probably be rolling along from the first preseason game on. I do not want to see us wait as many years as it took Eli to finally become a very good QB with the Giants. My personal line in the sand is three seasons to show you've got what it takes. Doesn't mean I am expecting Rodgers numbers out of him, but much better leadership than his career so far.

singersp
07-05-2013, 10:06 AM
I think it's safe to say when Webb took over in the playoffs that number didn't trend upward.

He did take 11 deep shots in that game. I'm not sure how many were over 30 yards, but at least 1 was.

As bad as Webb played in that game he still threw more TD passes from outside the redzone, than Ponder did all year. :)

Purple Floyd
07-05-2013, 12:59 PM
He did take 11 deep shots in that game. I'm not sure how many were over 30 yards, but at least 1 was.

As bad as Webb played in that game he still threw more TD passes from outside the redzone, than Ponder did all year. :)
Well, if that is what you are looking for in a QB then hell, he is your man. I think you can still buy his jersey.

OTOH I find it interesting how much hate you have for Ponder- Did he steal your woman or what?

I understand you went don fighting for the Honor of Jackson and all and that blew up but Ponder, while he may never end up being a franchise QB, is still better than he was and you can spend your days digging for stats to try to make Ponder look as bad as you can while you spend the same time trying to find stats to make Jackson look better than he was but in the end Ponder is still better than Jackson ever was and he may need to be replaced at some point this year but that still doesn't change that fact. ;)

i_bleed_purple
07-06-2013, 06:11 AM
He did take 11 deep shots in that game. I'm not sure how many were over 30 yards, but at least 1 was.

As bad as Webb played in that game he still threw more TD passes from outside the redzone, than Ponder did all year. :)
LOL

Webb's deep shot consisted of completely blown coverage to Jenkins for a walk-in TD. Let's talk instead about all the missed throws in the 5-20 yard range that were so far off the mark starting with the one on the first drive that stalled inside the redzone.

singersp
07-06-2013, 06:34 AM
Well, if that is what you are looking for in a QB then hell, he is your man. I think you can still buy his jersey.

OTOH I find it interesting how much hate you have for Ponder- Did he steal your woman or what?

I understand you went don fighting for the Honor of Jackson and all and that blew up but Ponder, while he may never end up being a franchise QB, is still better than he was and you can spend your days digging for stats to try to make Ponder look as bad as you can while you spend the same time trying to find stats to make Jackson look better than he was but in the end Ponder is still better than Jackson ever was and he may need to be replaced at some point this year but that still doesn't change that fact. ;)

No, Webb's not what I'm looking for in a QB. Ponder is better than Jackson was, but that doesn't make him good. I don't hate Ponder, I just don't think he's our guy. With Jackson, I was done with him after 20 starts. Many fans were done with him before half of that. With Ponder, he has had 26 consecutive starts with the team to date & I'm not seeing it except for a game here & there.

singersp
07-06-2013, 06:39 AM
LOL

Webb's deep shot consisted of completely blown coverage to Jenkins for a walk-in TD. Let's talk instead about all the missed throws in the 5-20 yard range that were so far off the mark starting with the one on the first drive that stalled inside the redzone.

I did talk about it. Again, he played bad. The worst I've ever seen him play, but blown coverage or not, he still had a TD from outside the redzone, which was something Ponder couldn't accomplish all year, even on passes where there was blown coverages or wide open receivers.

Purple Floyd
07-06-2013, 08:12 AM
Well, if that is what you are looking for in a QB then hell, he is your man. I think you can still buy his jersey.

OTOH I find it interesting how much hate you have for Ponder- Did he steal your woman or what?

I understand you went don fighting for the Honor of Jackson and all and that blew up but Ponder, while he may never end up being a franchise QB, is still better than he was and you can spend your days digging for stats to try to make Ponder look as bad as you can while you spend the same time trying to find stats to make Jackson look better than he was but in the end Ponder is still better than Jackson ever was and he may need to be replaced at some point this year but that still doesn't change that fact. ;)

No, Webb's not what I'm looking for in a QB. Ponder is better than Jackson was, but that doesn't make him good. I don't hate Ponder, I just don't think he's our guy. With Jackson, I was done with him after 20 starts. Many fans were done with him before half of that. With Ponder, he has had 26 consecutive starts with the team to date & I'm not seeing it except for a game here & there.
The whole 20 vs26 start thing is skewed because it took Jackson over 2x longer to get his total because he was either doing something that got him hurt and landing on IR or his play was so completely brutal that he got benched.

Ponder has been in the league 2 seasons. He is still growing but I am pretty much at the same place with him I was with Jackson after 2 years in that I don't think he has the mental makeup to be a franchise QB. It would have been nice to see how he handled a playoff game but even without that if he doesn't show a command of the offense and an understanding of the weaknesses of the defenses he faces on day one by starting to exploit them in the passing game then you can stick a fork in him too.

jargomcfargo
07-06-2013, 11:19 AM
Ponder has been in the league 2 seasons. He is still growing but I am pretty much at the same place with him I was with Jackson after 2 years in that I don't think he has the mental makeup to be a franchise QB. It would have been nice to see how he handled a playoff game but even without that if he doesn't show a command of the offense and an understanding of the weaknesses of the defenses he faces on day one by starting to exploit them in the passing game then you can stick a fork in him too.
Wins and losses are the ultimate stat. , even if Peterson was more responsible for those wins than Ponder. Ponder didn't screw up enough to turn all of Peterson's good work into losses, most of the time. The first Green Bay game was certainly a notable exception.
The other important stat. for a QB is the TD to Int. ratio. That improved in Ponders second year and is similar to what we've seen with the development of other successful QB's in the league.
Never the less, areas of concern are abundant and I doubt Vikings fans will be very tolerant of another year of mediocre or poor play.
Rarely will a team go far with a QB who is dependent upon his running back and field goal kicker to score points.
If Ponder can't bring the team back from behind with his arm, he won't make it in this league.
Like you, I question his mental make up as well. He supposedly has an abundance of intelligence, but this is more about emotional make up than intelligence. Reaction to pressure is emotional more than analytical.
He appears to lack the degree of confidence I see in RG III, Wilson, Kaepernick, and others.
With a better command of the offense, understanding of the defenses he faces, and new offensive weapons, Ponder should have a break out season.
If not, get out the fork!

Purple Floyd
07-06-2013, 12:38 PM
Wins and losses are the ultimate stat. , even if Peterson was more responsible for those wins than Ponder. Ponder didn't screw up enough to turn all of Peterson's good work into losses, most of the time. The first Green Bay game was certainly a notable exception.
The other important stat. for a QB is the TD to Int. ratio. That improved in Ponders second year and is similar to what we've seen with the development of other successful QB's in the league.
Never the less, areas of concern are abundant and I doubt Vikings fans will be very tolerant of another year of mediocre or poor play.
Rarely will a team go far with a QB who is dependent upon his running back and field goal kicker to score points.
If Ponder can't bring the team back from behind with his arm, he won't make it in this league.
Like you, I question his mental make up as well. He supposedly has an abundance of intelligence, but this is more about emotional make up than intelligence. Reaction to pressure is emotional more than analytical.
He appears to lack the degree of confidence I see in RG III, Wilson, Kaepernick, and others.
With a better command of the offense, understanding of the defenses he faces, and new offensive weapons, Ponder should have a break out season.
If not, get out the fork!

What a QB needs is the ability to not only think, as Ponder clearly has, but to think under pressure and that is where the question lies. Childress was much like that. He could come up with very quippy comments off the cuff when standing at the podium but when he had to make a great call against an opposing coach in the heat of the battle he didn't do very well. Not any fault, just the way their brain is programmed. If that ends up being the case with ponder he will more than likely do very well in another career, but under center might not be his best place to excel.

bleedpurple
07-08-2013, 11:49 AM
He's right: Jerome Felton Stats, News, Videos, Highlights, Pictures, Bio - Minnesota Vikings - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/11369/jerome-felton)

yeah he just paved the way for the second best rushing performance in NFL history and an MVP..... as a running back which is unheard of these days... U don't need the ball to have an impact.. i.e. the offensive line...

SharperImage
07-08-2013, 07:42 PM
The clear cut top of the line QB in that draft class, a Class of weak QBs was Ryan Mallett. Not only did we choose the weakest class to choose a QB out of, we chose the wrong one. Ryan Mallett can make all the throws, is accurate and football smart, cannon arm, and good pocket presence. He goes to the patriots to take over for Tomcat when he is done, and the pats get another great QB to lead them..

Iono why we passed on Ryan Mallett a SEC QB for an ACC QB with a weak arm..

jmcdon00
07-09-2013, 10:39 AM
Wins and losses are the ultimate stat. , even if Peterson was more responsible for those wins than Ponder. Ponder didn't screw up enough to turn all of Peterson's good work into losses, most of the time. The first Green Bay game was certainly a notable exception.
The other important stat. for a QB is the TD to Int. ratio. That improved in Ponders second year and is similar to what we've seen with the development of other successful QB's in the league.
Never the less, areas of concern are abundant and I doubt Vikings fans will be very tolerant of another year of mediocre or poor play.
Rarely will a team go far with a QB who is dependent upon his running back and field goal kicker to score points.
If Ponder can't bring the team back from behind with his arm, he won't make it in this league.
Like you, I question his mental make up as well. He supposedly has an abundance of intelligence, but this is more about emotional make up than intelligence. Reaction to pressure is emotional more than analytical.
He appears to lack the degree of confidence I see in RG III, Wilson, Kaepernick, and others.
With a better command of the offense, understanding of the defenses he faces, and new offensive weapons, Ponder should have a break out season.
If not, get out the fork!
TJack was 10-11 as a starter(including a road playoff loss and a the final week of 2010's 3-13season)
Ponder is 12-14 as a starter, and avoided a likely loss in the playoffs last year.
Slight edge Tjack

Tjack's Vikings career 24TD 22Int 1.09:1
Ponder 31td 25int 1.24:1
Slight edge Ponder

The best argument that Tjack supporters had was that his numbers got better every year, the same argument Ponder supporters are making. I'm not falling for it.
I still have hope for Ponder, but I'm not optimistic. His career path is very similar to Tjack, which is not a good sign.
The best thing I saw from Ponder last year was that he stayed on the field for 16 games, but then he missed the playoff game, so I can't even say he's a durable QB. This is the most underrated criteria for becoming a good QB. Most of the top established QB's(Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Manning, Brees, Rivers) rarely miss games. It is also, arguably, one of the biggest reasons Tjack couldn't cut it as a starter.

jargomcfargo
07-09-2013, 11:09 AM
TJack was 10-11 as a starter(including a road playoff loss and a the final week of 2010's 3-13season)
Ponder is 12-14 as a starter, and avoided a likely loss in the playoffs last year.
Slight edge Tjack

Tjack's Vikings career 24TD 22Int 1.09:1
Ponder 31td 25int 1.24:1
Slight edge Ponder

The best argument that Tjack supporters had was that his numbers got better every year, the same argument Ponder supporters are making. I'm not falling for it.
I still have hope for Ponder, but I'm not optimistic. His career path is very similar to Tjack, which is not a good sign.
The best thing I saw from Ponder last year was that he stayed on the field for 16 games, but then he missed the playoff game, so I can't even say he's a durable QB. This is the most underrated criteria for becoming a good QB. Most of the top established QB's(Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Manning, Brees, Rivers) rarely miss games. It is also, arguably, one of the biggest reasons Tjack couldn't cut it as a starter.

I keep hearing coaches, players, and analysts say Ponder can 'make all the throws'.
We've all heard how intelligent Ponder is.
I'm just not seeing it translated to on the field performance.
Why is that? Is it inexperience or , as PF suggests, emotional make up ?

As you point out, the inability to stay healthy has already cost him valuable play off experience and could derail his career.

At this point the similarities between Ponder and Tjack seem more relevant than those between Ponder and previously successful NFL QB's who got off to slow starts, such as Aikman. The odds Ponder will become any more than a 'game manager' at best, seem low.

Eli Manning improved when the team around him improved. Perhaps that will happen with Ponder.
I wouldn't bet hard earned money on it, but I sure hope this is the year he proves the doubters wrong.

jmcdon00
07-09-2013, 11:49 AM
I keep hearing coaches, players, and analysts say Ponder can 'make all the throws'.
We've all heard how intelligent Ponder is.
I'm just not seeing it translated to on the field performance.
Why is that? Is it inexperience or , as PF suggests, emotional make up ?

As you point out, the inability to stay healthy has already cost him valuable play off experience and could derail his career.

At this point the similarities between Ponder and Tjack seem more relevant than those between Ponder and previously successful NFL QB's who got off to slow starts, such as Aikman. The odds Ponder will become any more than a 'game manager' at best, seem low.

Eli Manning improved when the team around him improved. Perhaps that will happen with Ponder.
I wouldn't bet hard earned money on it, but I sure hope this is the year he proves the doubters wrong.
Most NFL QB's can make all the throws, if you can't your not going to be in the league very long. It comes down to make good decisions very quickly, and consistently.
Eli is a good comparison, pretty similar career paths in their first 2 years. Eli's greatest attribute is that he is always on the field, which allows him to get better.
Eli's first playoff game was at home, he was 10/18 110 yards 0td 3int 1fmble lost QB rating 35, which is still better than Ponder's first playoff game().

tastywaves
07-09-2013, 11:59 AM
I read a long thread on Ponder the other day where two stat junkies dissected and bisected Ponder in a hundred different ways. Some key stat categories Ponder looks good (as Marrdro usually highlights) and some key stat categories Ponder looks bad which Singer generally finds. He gets harped on a lot on his lack of long completions (as he should), but the area I found most revealing was his complete failure in the 20-40 yard category where he was 4/33. 40+ he was 2/3. Rodgers was one of the best hitting 19/47. Over 40 yards he was 0/6. If Ponder can even get to 30-35% completions at that range it will change the way defenses play us.

Receivers no doubt were part of that equation as was the way Musgrave/Frazier wanted to call a conservative game. Nonetheless, Ponder took 33 shots and only completed 4. I hope this is a point of emphasis in the offseason and we see more success in this area. If Ponder continues to struggle with these throws, then I would guess the coaching staff will get antsy.

I don't think the strength of his arm is the issue. I think it is mostly confidence related and is a maybe the most technical aspect to playing in the NFL. When you see a QB like Brady, Peyton or Rodgers get into a rhythm, it is a thing of beauty, especially when you get camera angles that show it from their perspective. They are playing with a ton of confidence. One thing those guys all have in common I am quite sure is that it is a point of emphasis and a large part of what they practice. Not so sure that is the case with MN. Especially as this team was being revamped over the last few years with the intent to create a long term successful franchise. The focus has been on building a well rounded team in all three phases with an emphasis on physical play. I think we have made great strides in the last couple of years to that purpose, addressing a number of weaknesses. Going into this year I think most would agree that our biggest weaknesses were in passing offense and passing defense. Both of these areas were upgraded in talent IMO, now they need to see it pan out during the season. For Ponder, if he can't develop success in the 20-40 yard range, his time as a starting QB will most likely be coming to an end.

NodakPaul
07-09-2013, 01:55 PM
I read a long thread on Ponder the other day where two stat junkies dissected and bisected Ponder in a hundred different ways. Some key stat categories Ponder looks good (as Marrdro usually highlights) and some key stat categories Ponder looks bad which Singer generally finds. He gets harped on a lot on his lack of long completions (as he should), but the area I found most revealing was his complete failure in the 20-40 yard category where he was 4/33. 40+ he was 2/3. Rodgers was one of the best hitting 19/47. Over 40 yards he was 0/6. If Ponder can even get to 30-35% completions at that range it will change the way defenses play us.

Receivers no doubt were part of that equation as was the way Musgrave/Frazier wanted to call a conservative game. Nonetheless, Ponder took 33 shots and only completed 4. I hope this is a point of emphasis in the offseason and we see more success in this area. If Ponder continues to struggle with these throws, then I would guess the coaching staff will get antsy.

I don't think the strength of his arm is the issue. I think it is mostly confidence related and is a maybe the most technical aspect to playing in the NFL. When you see a QB like Brady, Peyton or Rodgers get into a rhythm, it is a thing of beauty, especially when you get camera angles that show it from their perspective. They are playing with a ton of confidence. One thing those guys all have in common I am quite sure is that it is a point of emphasis and a large part of what they practice. Not so sure that is the case with MN. Especially as this team was being revamped over the last few years with the intent to create a long term successful franchise. The focus has been on building a well rounded team in all three phases with an emphasis on physical play. I think we have made great strides in the last couple of years to that purpose, addressing a number of weaknesses. Going into this year I think most would agree that our biggest weaknesses were in passing offense and passing defense. Both of these areas were upgraded in talent IMO, now they need to see it pan out during the season. For Ponder, if he can't develop success in the 20-40 yard range, his time as a starting QB will most likely be coming to an end.

Great post, and dead on like usual.

I only want to comment on two parts:

Receivers no doubt were part of that equation as was the way Musgrave/Frazier wanted to call a conservative game.

I am of the opinion that Musgrave called the offense the way he did because of the limitations at QB and WR, not the other way around. In fact, I have said it before, but I think Musgrave was borderline brilliant in the way he devised game plans that allowed us to be marginally successful without a passing attack to speak of.

Look at the difference in the plays called between Musgrave's Atlanta time and now. They are pretty different, and that is because he adapted his game plan to the abilities of the players, instead of trying to force an offensive philosophy that may or may not work with the current personnel. And that is what makes a great coach.


I don't think the strength of his arm is the issue.
Well, yes and no. He has the arm to get the ball pretty far down field. So in that aspect arm strength is not an issue. However, his ball speed is and issue. His deep throws are rainbows, which gives the defenders too much time to adjust and defend.

I think the 4/33 in the 20-40 yard range is very telling. Over 40 usually means some kind of defensive breakdown, or the receiver gets behind the defender. 20-40 is right in the coverage area, and a slow ball is going to mean more defended passes.

In order to be successful, Ponder is going to have to be on the exact same page as his receivers. He is going to have to throw to open field long before the receiver, and it is going to have to be to a spot that only the WR can get to. It is not impossible, but it is a lot more difficult than it would be if he was firing it in.

jargomcfargo
07-09-2013, 02:15 PM
Great post, and dead on like usual.

I only want to comment on two parts:


I am of the opinion that Musgrave called the offense the way he did because of the limitations at QB and WR, not the other way around. In fact, I have said it before, but I think Musgrave was borderline brilliant in the way he devised game plans that allowed us to be marginally successful without a passing attack to speak of.

Look at the difference in the plays called between Musgrave's Atlanta time and now. They are pretty different, and that is because he adapted his game plan to the abilities of the players, instead of trying to force an offensive philosophy that may or may not work with the current personnel. And that is what makes a great coach.


Well, yes and no. He has the arm to get the ball pretty far down field. So in that aspect arm strength is not an issue. However, his ball speed is and issue. His deep throws are rainbows, which gives the defenders too much time to adjust and defend.

I think the 4/33 in the 20-40 yard range is very telling. Over 40 usually means some kind of defensive breakdown, or the receiver gets behind the defender. 20-40 is right in the coverage area, and a slow ball is going to mean more defended passes.

In order to be successful, Ponder is going to have to be on the exact same page as his receivers. He is going to have to throw to open field long before the receiver, and it is going to have to be to a spot that only the WR can get to. It is not impossible, but it is a lot more difficult than it would be if he was firing it in.

Two great posts. Both spot on.
I can recall people saying the receivers weren't getting open last year. There is some element of truth to that. But when given the camera angle to see it, I recall seeing receivers coming open but Ponder was to late to see it, and often pulled the ball back down and ran because the receivers were covered up again. He couldn't anticipate the receiver coming open and therefore wouldn't pull the trigger and deliver the ball.
That anticipation should improve this year, but woeful inaccuracy could render the point moot.

Ponder was definitely the limitation on what Musgrave could do. I don't think it will work this year to just hand off to AP. Green Bay found a way to limit gains in the outside runs during the play off game, and other teams will follow suit. AP will still get his yards but the team will need a passing game to do well.

I wonder what Musgrave could do with Cassel at the helm. We will catch a glimpse in pre-season.

I honestly believe this team could be very good with good QB play.

NodakPaul
07-09-2013, 02:28 PM
I wonder what Musgrave could do with Cassel at the helm. We will catch a glimpse in pre-season.

I am a bit curious too. Of course, the most popular player on a team is always the backup QB. :) But I think that Cassel is better than his last season...


I honestly believe this team could be very good with good QB play.

Agreed 100%. Fair or not, the success of this year rests on Ponder's shoulders. We need him to step up this year. I think there is a chance, but if he does not, then we need to move on.

gregair13
07-09-2013, 04:46 PM
If Ponder does not pan out, we will be wondering for another few seasons what to do at QB.

jmcdon00
07-09-2013, 04:50 PM
If Ponder does not pan out, we will be wondering for another few seasons what to do at QB.
They should have cap room(assuming they don't resign Allen and Williams) to go after a free agent next year. Team is primed for success now, they can't wait 3 more years to see if the next project pans out.

tastywaves
07-09-2013, 05:11 PM
I am of the opinion that Musgrave called the offense the way he did because of the limitations at QB and WR, not the other way around. In fact, I have said it before, but I think Musgrave was borderline brilliant in the way he devised game plans that allowed us to be marginally successful without a passing attack to speak of.

Look at the difference in the plays called between Musgrave's Atlanta time and now. They are pretty different, and that is because he adapted his game plan to the abilities of the players, instead of trying to force an offensive philosophy that may or may not work with the current personnel. And that is what makes a great coach.

I do think Musgrave tries to adopt to his roster, but also likes the short horizontal passing game. He did say this when he was hired:


Musgrave was asked whether the Vikings line will continue to use zone-blocking schemes.

"There goes that question again -- which a lot of coaches make that mistake too, at least they have historically -- of thinking of schemes and plays that they prefer without thinking about the players that have to execute them," he said. "We’re going to do a fantastic job of putting our guys in the schemes that fit their talents."

On the arm strength/ball velocity point. I agree that Ponder is probably a below average QB in respect to how much velocity he puts on his throws, which means he does need to anticipate better than a guy like Favre or Flacco. But I don't see him being much different than Brees or Peyton. He also needs receivers that will win contested battles (like most QB's). In the long run, if he can figure it out, this will probably serve him better. He will need to figure it out quick though, the NFL tryout is coming to an end.

tastywaves
07-09-2013, 05:16 PM
They should have cap room(assuming they don't resign Allen and Williams) to go after a free agent next year. Team is primed for success now, they can't wait 3 more years to see if the next project pans out.

That is always the problem with QB's. The only sure things will cost you a king's ransom, everything else is a gamble. Cutler might be available soon.

Purple Floyd
07-09-2013, 06:06 PM
But I don't see him being much different than Brees or Peyton.

OK boys and girls, I think we have an official nomination for the Common Man's most preposterous statement of the year.lol

tastywaves
07-09-2013, 08:29 PM
But I don't see him being much different than Brees or Peyton.

OK boys and girls, I think we have an official nomination for the Common Man's most preposterous statement of the year.lol

Arm strength mayor, nothing else. How long did you last anyways.

Ranger
07-10-2013, 09:18 AM
OK boys and girls, I think we have an official nomination for the Common Man's most preposterous statement of the year.lol

Pretty sure he's talking about arm strength.

mountainviking
07-10-2013, 10:26 AM
In order to be successful, Ponder is going to have to be on the exact same page as his receivers. He is going to have to throw to open field long before the receiver, and it is going to have to be to a spot that only the WR can get to. It is not impossible, but it is a lot more difficult than it would be if he was firing it in.

There's also a lot of talk about confidence, and those timing routes require it from both ends. I believe that is where Ponder's growing experience teamed up with Greg Jennings route running reliability is going to help tremendously.

And, tho he is dynamite with a ball in his hands, Harvin's "I got a headache and don't want to pay attention in practice today," being replaced with Jennings more workman like attitude can rub off on the other young WRs we have, and improve that whole department.

At least that's what I hope!! ;) SKOL VIKINGS!!!!!

Marrdro
07-10-2013, 12:22 PM
There's also a lot of talk about confidence, and those timing routes require it from both ends. I believe that is where Ponder's growing experience teamed up with Greg Jennings route running reliability is going to help tremendously.

And, tho he is dynamite with a ball in his hands, Harvin's "I got a headache and don't want to pay attention in practice today," being replaced with Jennings more workman like attitude can rub off on the other young WRs we have, and improve that whole department.

At least that's what I hope!! ;) SKOL VIKINGS!!!!!

Great post my friend. Great post indeed.

Marrdro
07-10-2013, 12:27 PM
I do think Musgrave tries to adopt to his roster, but also likes the short horizontal passing game. He did say this when he was hired:



On the arm strength/ball velocity point. I agree that Ponder is probably a below average QB in respect to how much velocity he puts on his throws, which means he does need to anticipate better than a guy like Favre or Flacco. But I don't see him being much different than Brees or Peyton. He also needs receivers that will win contested battles (like most QB's). In the long run, if he can figure it out, this will probably serve him better. He will need to figure it out quick though, the NFL tryout is coming to an end.

A certain yutz did a initial analysis thread on old Musgrove when he was first hired. If memory serves, he ran a dink dunk short pass offense every time he was a O-coord and in at least one instance he had a strong armed QB that could go deep.

The QB isn't driving our scheme, the O-coord is. Thats why they drafted a QB that was best suited to run it.

Think back, Walsh ran the Air Coryell "More Vertical" offense. When he was stuck with a weak armed QB he came up with what is now called the Dink Dunk offense. Thats why he, from that point on, always drafted a QB that didn't so much have a strong arm but rather knew were and when to throw the ball.

Marrdro
07-10-2013, 12:33 PM
Two great posts. Both spot on.
I can recall people saying the receivers weren't getting open last year. There is some element of truth to that. But when given the camera angle to see it, I recall seeing receivers coming open but Ponder was to late to see it, and often pulled the ball back down and ran because the receivers were covered up again. He couldn't anticipate the receiver coming open and therefore wouldn't pull the trigger and deliver the ball.
That anticipation should improve this year, but woeful inaccuracy could render the point moot.

Ponder was definitely the limitation on what Musgrave could do. I don't think it will work this year to just hand off to AP. Green Bay found a way to limit gains in the outside runs during the play off game, and other teams will follow suit. AP will still get his yards but the team will need a passing game to do well.

I wonder what Musgrave could do with Cassel at the helm. We will catch a glimpse in pre-season.

I honestly believe this team could be very good with good QB play.
Quick question......Why do you think the Vikings drafted Ponder? Because of his limitations? They drafted him because he fit the scheme they want to run.

The limitation was directly related to Ponder inexperience coupled together with a very complex offense and WR's that could not get separation when the were SUPPOSED to. Did they eventually get open? Sure but in almost every instance I bet it was passed the window were Ponder was supposed to throw the ball to.

That last sentence is pretty key because Ponder is supposed to deliver the ball to a spot before the WR gets there. If it doesn't appear he is going to have the separation at that spot Ponder is then supposed to go onto the second read in his progression.

That statement is pretty important as well. In this variation of the WCO, the QB always throws to the guy he thinks is going to be open based on his pre-snap read. If he has to go to a second or third option, he basically read the defense wrong.

Kindof makes me chuckle when I see Vikings fans hack on him for "locking in on a target". Watch Brady when he's reading the defenses right. He never looks at anything but his prime target. Quick read, quick release.......staple of the Walsh Dink Dunk scheme.

Marrdro
07-10-2013, 12:49 PM
I think the 4/33 in the 20-40 yard range is very telling. Over 40 usually means some kind of defensive breakdown, or the receiver gets behind the defender. 20-40 is right in the coverage area, and a slow ball is going to mean more defended passes.

It can also mean that the WR did not get the separation intended as well. The longer the ball, the easier it is for the DB's to make adjustments on them and if they are step for step with the WR, its really easy.

I know most don't want to agree, but our WR's last year did not get separation when they were supposed to. Most instances, when they were wide open, were times after Ponder was supposed to go to them based on the read and timing associated with that read.

Gonna be fun to watch Jennings work the field this year. Vikings fans are going to remember what the word separation means.

Another thing that will come of that....QB confidence. Not in himself, but in the WR's to be were they are supposed to be when the ball gets there. I think he had absolutely no confidence in anyone other than Percy and Rudy last year. All the defense had to do was take one or the other out, which wasn't to hard.

Marrdro
07-10-2013, 12:57 PM
I'm with you on this ranger. I have faith that this will be the season he steps it up. Late last season it looked like he was more comfortable with the speed of the game. He wasn't throwing behind the receivers as has been his way prior to that. Especially throwing on the move. If however he does not come out and show marked improvement, I will jump on the "Start Cassell" bandwagon that will probably be rolling along from the first preseason game on. I do not want to see us wait as many years as it took Eli to finally become a very good QB with the Giants. My personal line in the sand is three seasons to show you've got what it takes. Doesn't mean I am expecting Rodgers numbers out of him, but much better leadership than his career so far.
Depends on the circumstance for a sub 100 yard game.

Lets pretend AD gets a quick hit off the first drive for six and the defense comes out and gets a pick six early in the first quarter followed up by a STs return for 6.

Yup, I think the QB is gonna get very few yards that game as the staff will pound it down the other teams throat for the rest of the game.

Marrdro
07-10-2013, 01:00 PM
Musgrave seems to play it safe when he knows he can attempt a field goal and doesn't take a lot of chances with Ponder's arm in those situations. To me that seems indicative of a lack of trust by Musgrave.
The biggest negative for Ponder is his response to pressure. He seems to be that NFL caliber QB when he has time to throw, but makes poor choices when pressured.
That should improve with better pass blocking, better receivers, and more experience reading defenses.
But right now he is a QB that can be rattled.
The best NFL QB's can burn the defense when they blitz. Ponder has yet to reach that level.
I keep hearing people say he can " make all the throws", so I can only assume the problem is between his ears. If he can remain calm when pressured, I believe he could have a much better year.
Something fun to watch this year.....Brady. He is going to look very rattled. Is it because he doesn't have it between his ears or because he won't have a WR on the field that he has confidence in.

Again, something to watch.

tastywaves
07-10-2013, 03:03 PM
It can also mean that the WR did not get the separation intended as well. The longer the ball, the easier it is for the DB's to make adjustments on them and if they are step for step with the WR, its really easy.

I know most don't want to agree, but our WR's last year did not get separation when they were supposed to. Most instances, when they were wide open, were times after Ponder was supposed to go to them based on the read and timing associated with that read.

Gonna be fun to watch Jennings work the field this year. Vikings fans are going to remember what the word separation means.

Another thing that will come of that....QB confidence. Not in himself, but in the WR's to be were they are supposed to be when the ball gets there. I think he had absolutely no confidence in anyone other than Percy and Rudy last year. All the defense had to do was take one or the other out, which wasn't to hard.

I agree that the receivers were a big part of the equation, but you still have to look at the fact that he took 33 shots in that range only hit on 4. You would have to go back and look at each and every play from many different aspects to understand how much of the blame goes on Ponder, but the fact he hit on so few of them, is a pretty good indication that he was a big part of the equation as well.

This could very well improve this year, especially if the team puts more focus on it. But I think we can all agree that it needs to improve.

SharperImage
07-11-2013, 01:23 AM
Gentlemen Gentlemen The point is, IF Ponder does not pan out like I have a feeling he wont, would you rather do a blockbuster trade for Bridgewater, or the top QB in the 2014 class? Or trade for a potential franchise QB like Ryan Mallett or Kirk Cousins.

The thing is the Vikings took a flyer on a QB that they thought was smart, accurate, and played in a pro style offense. Ponder was a "Safe" pick to become an ok-decent starter! but they forgot about the number 1 thing when it comes to drafting NFL players... INTANGIBLES. Ponder doesnt have "IT" he never did even in college. Which is why he was projected as a good backup/average starter. The vikings thought they could take him and run the ball all day and do 5-15 yard passes all the way down the field. I believe they are realizing that this is a 70% passing league. I believe this year we are going to let Ponder fling the ball all around the field and see if he can blossom into a Good QB like Drew Brees did! Remember when Drew was a noodle arm QB in San Diego?

This team is honestly in great shape for the future. We have a TON of YOUNG talent. I think if we resign all our young talent and have ANOTHER good 2014 draft class we are set for the next 5-10 years to be good. We don't have many holes left to fill. NT/G/SS/OLB is all the "holes" we got left. Ponder has been given the keys to a team with a bright future, and HE KNOWS if he doesnt atleast show signs of becoming a top 16 QB he is out.

I just want to know what does the team do? The team is young enough to bring in a Rookie QB, but then thats another 2-3 years we are robbing of Adrian Peterson. OR we can trade for Ryan Mallett, my number 1 choice, and the guy I think we shouldve drafted back in 2011 anyway.. or Kirk Cousins from 2012.. Iono what we will do, but I wish we wouldve brought in a decent QB to make Ponder earn it instead of trying to boost his confidence by protecting him.. I think winning a competition is a better confidence booster than someone just handing you something.

Purple Floyd
07-11-2013, 07:39 AM
No. You don't use all your picks to get one player. You use all your picks to build the roster depth and you live within your means when it comes to spending to fill a spot. There will be starters available in the draft and in free agency if ponder blows it. We need to find those players if necessary and for the right price..

tastywaves
07-11-2013, 09:08 AM
What he said.

Marrdro
07-11-2013, 10:01 AM
This could very well improve this year, especially if the team puts more focus on it. But I think we can all agree that it needs to improve.
Agree.

Marrdro
07-11-2013, 10:12 AM
Gentlemen Gentlemen The point is, IF Ponder does not pan out like I have a feeling he wont, would you rather do a blockbuster trade for Bridgewater, or the top QB in the 2014 class? Or trade for a potential franchise QB like Ryan Mallett or Kirk Cousins.

The thing is the Vikings took a flyer on a QB that they thought was smart, accurate, and played in a pro style offense. Ponder was a "Safe" pick to become an ok-decent starter! but they forgot about the number 1 thing when it comes to drafting NFL players... INTANGIBLES. Ponder doesnt have "IT" he never did even in college. Which is why he was projected as a good backup/average starter. The vikings thought they could take him and run the ball all day and do 5-15 yard passes all the way down the field. I believe they are realizing that this is a 70% passing league. I believe this year we are going to let Ponder fling the ball all around the field and see if he can blossom into a Good QB like Drew Brees did! Remember when Drew was a noodle arm QB in San Diego?

This team is honestly in great shape for the future. We have a TON of YOUNG talent. I think if we resign all our young talent and have ANOTHER good 2014 draft class we are set for the next 5-10 years to be good. We don't have many holes left to fill. NT/G/SS/OLB is all the "holes" we got left. Ponder has been given the keys to a team with a bright future, and HE KNOWS if he doesnt atleast show signs of becoming a top 16 QB he is out.

I just want to know what does the team do? The team is young enough to bring in a Rookie QB, but then thats another 2-3 years we are robbing of Adrian Peterson. OR we can trade for Ryan Mallett, my number 1 choice, and the guy I think we shouldve drafted back in 2011 anyway.. or Kirk Cousins from 2012.. Iono what we will do, but I wish we wouldve brought in a decent QB to make Ponder earn it instead of trying to boost his confidence by protecting him.. I think winning a competition is a better confidence booster than someone just handing you something.
It always amazes me when people say a player hasn't earned anything because he hasn't had what is perceived as a challenge to his spot.

Truth is, Ponder was selected because he fit the offensive scheme and the staff thought they had a vet (not many available) that could lead this team for a couple of years while he learned. Now that didn't pan out, he was forced to learn on the field, which is never a good thing and has lost the fan base because of it.

Doesn't mean he won't become a good dang QB, he probably will, but forever he will be tainted in the fan bases eyes because of his first few years. Happens to all players though. Just look at how great Jamarca played at his position last year and what the fan bases opinion is of him now.

As to your other candidates.....What has Mallet done other than get drafted late because he is slow of foot and has an even slower release. How in the heck would either of those two traights work out in a offense were you have to move around in the pocket/move the pocket and have a quick release?

Kirk Cousins showed some flash last year, but so did RGIII......question is, were they both that good or did the team and the coaching staff make them look that good?

In the end, you can look statistically (have to have a blinds eye to total yards) and see that Ponder excelled in the areas you want him to in this offense and that over time he will continue to get better.

Starting over will be just another "Starting over" kindof scenario that will just keep us all waiting (and discussing) for the next best thing.

By the way, I think your guy Bridgewater is just another flash in the pan like Newton, RGIII and Wilson. No team has, nor will they ever win a SB without a true pocket passer. None.

(Marrdro stands by for the obvious candidates i.e. Young who was mobile and a pocket passer).

mountainviking
07-11-2013, 10:34 AM
Depends on the circumstance for a sub 100 yard game.

Lets pretend AD gets a quick hit off the first drive for six and the defense comes out and gets a pick six early in the first quarter followed up by a STs return for 6.

Yup, I think the QB is gonna get very few yards that game as the staff will pound it down the other teams throat for the rest of the game.

LOL...leave it to Marrdro to dream up the scenario where a sub 100 yard game is not only acceptable, but encouraged! ;) Good point on Brady too...it will be interesting to see if they have the depth to step up if Gronk and Amendola's injury patterns persist and they don't sign somebody faster than our guy Jenkins!!


Sharper, I feel your desire to give AP a better chance to win now! But, I'm far from sure that Mallet or Cousins, or any rookie is going to be any better next year than Ponder will be after another year of experience, and this one, hopefully, finally, with improved talent at the WR position for the whole season.

Any one of those other unproven guys would be learning a brand new system, and sure, its easy to hand off to AP, but there is still new language, schemes, routes etc to learn and, as discussed, it is so important in any system and more-so in ours, that the WR and the QB be on exactly the same page in the playbook/route tree.

And, unfortunately, NT/G/SS/OLB are NOT all the "holes" we got left...for starters, DE! Allen, Robison, and Griffen are all Free Agents to be. I like where Ellison is headed, but Carlson has a lot to prove as our 2nd TE, so that could be a need. Chris Cook and AJ Jefferson are FAs, maybe we need another Corner too. And, less important but still a hole to fill, backup RB.

So, as much as I agree with you that we have tons of young talent, and AP's age & experience puts us in a win-now position, we still can't afford to mortgage the future for a reach of a QB now. We need to stick with the management plan we have and build for long term, sustained success. Instead of just another flash in the random NFC championship, wouldn't you rather have a Superbowl win or two, and a chance at a dynasty!???

I really, really like where this team is headed! We've a strong, young nucleus to build upon, and we've gotten to the point where for one season, our only complaint is our starting QB who only has 1.5 years of experience to judge him on...that's not such a bad place to be! There's a real good chance he will improve dramatically in years 3 and 4, specially given the upgrade and development of the pieces around him.

If not, well, we move on. But even if we draft another QB early next season, we'll likely be starting Cassell at QB, cuz the FA list looks like this: Cutler? Vick? Freeman? Henne? Grossman? And, Cassell will at least have that year of learning the language.

Marrdro
07-11-2013, 11:01 AM
LOL...leave it to Marrdro to dream up the scenario where a sub 100 yard game is not only acceptable, but encouraged! ;)
You obviously missed the game last year when that almost happened resulting in a sub 100 yard game (or close to it) by Ponder then.

Truth is, there were a couple of games were the passing game wasn't needed for most of the game. Most teams would love to shut down their QB and just run the clock out with a running game.

Heck, they call it milking the clock. :)

NodakPaul
07-11-2013, 11:07 AM
Depends on the circumstance for a sub 100 yard game.

Lets pretend AD gets a quick hit off the first drive for six and the defense comes out and gets a pick six early in the first quarter followed up by a STs return for 6.

Yup, I think the QB is gonna get very few yards that game as the staff will pound it down the other teams throat for the rest of the game.

Even pounding the ball down their throats, I don't see how a sub 100 yard game could be considered a good game for a QB.

The closest game I could think of in comparison was Jackson's game against AZ in 2008. It was a similar scenario. After the AZ's first drive, Berrian returned a punt 82 yards for a TD. We intercept the ball on AZ's second drive, and Berrian gets behind the defender for a 41 yard TD pass. On the very first play of AZ's third drive, Warner is sacked and fumbles and we recover. Jackson throws a short 6 yard TD pass to Rice.

At this point we were up 21-0 and there was still 3 minutes left in the first quarter. At this point we went into a pounding running game. Our next TD came in the second quarter, with AD and Chester Taylor combining for 80 of the 91 yards in the drive. Jackson only attempted two passes. One incomplete, and one for the TD from the 11.

In the end, Jackson still had 157 net yards and 4 TDs. 60 of those yards came on two scoring plays, and the other two TDs were set up by great running or great defense. So there wasn't a lot of passing offense in the game. But even then he still was well over 100. Had he come in less than 100, he would have been crucified. And rightfully so.

Marrdro
07-11-2013, 11:16 AM
Even pounding the ball down their throats, I don't see how a sub 100 yard game could be considered a good game for a QB.

Who cares about the QB if we win?

Arizona Cardinals vs. Minnesota Vikings - Box Score - October 21, 2012 - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=321021016)

Skelton had 250+, they had a 100 yard receiver and we threw it under 20 times. In the end the QB will get hacked on by the yutz's at ESPN but the reality of it all was that it was a win by a team that doesn't have to rely on one guy like the Packers do.

I for one love that we have a team that can do that now instead of putting all our eggs onto the QB.

NodakPaul
07-11-2013, 11:24 AM
You obviously missed the game last year when that almost happened resulting in a sub 100 yard game (or close to it) by Ponder then.

Truth is, there were a couple of games were the passing game wasn't needed for most of the game. Most teams would love to shut down their QB and just run the clock out with a running game.

Heck, they call it milking the clock. :)

There were no games last year in which we had a big enough lead that we could just milk the clock and not try to keep putting it downfield. Every win we had where Ponder was 125 yards or less was decided by a TD or less.

I assume you are talking about the Rams game, and if you go back and watch that game (I love NFL.com) you should be able to see that he didn't have a good game. It might not have been a bad game (although he did have a couple of drive killing incompletes that allowed St Louis to score twice in the 4th quarter and get within 8), but it was not a good game either. With the way we were running the ball, and the way St Louis was stacking up to stop AD, Ponder should have been able to have some easy completions late in the game.

Marrdro
07-11-2013, 11:35 AM
There were no games last year in which we had a big enough lead that we could just milk the clock and not try to keep putting it downfield. Every win we had where Ponder was 125 yards or less was decided by a TD or less.

I assume you are talking about the Rams game, and if you go back and watch that game (I love NFL.com) you should be able to see that he didn't have a good game. It might not have been a bad game (although he did have a couple of drive killing incompletes that allowed St Louis to score twice in the 4th quarter and get within 8), but it was not a good game either. With the way we were running the ball, and the way St Louis was stacking up to stop AD, Ponder should have been able to have some easy completions late in the game.
That is the game that I came up with the "Scenario" from. Truth is, I think there was another were we had a KO return and a Punt return (or INT 6) were Ponder just didn't have to throw.

If I'm the staff and I have a young kid, learning the game, that is having a shacky one at best, I'm not putting the ball in the air if I don't have to. Who cares what the analysts say.

If, for some reason, it happens again this year, I'm behind the staff 100%, even if Ponder is throwing at a 65-70% completion rate during the season. By the way, I think it will only take a 2 or 3% improvement to get to that rate this year. :)

Marrdro
07-11-2013, 11:42 AM
Kindof a interesting tidbit I looked up based on a comment by Nodack.


And here are the six most popular margin of victory numbers (or, "key numbers") since 2003:


3 — 15.39% of all games
7 — 9.55% of all games
10 — 6.14% of all games
6 — 5.58% of all games
4 — 5.32% of all games
14 —4.79% of all games



NFL Margin Of Victory Chart - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-margin-of-victory-chart-2013-7)

jmcdon00
07-11-2013, 11:50 AM
That is always the problem with QB's. The only sure things will cost you a king's ransom, everything else is a gamble. Cutler might be available soon.
I sure hope it's not Cutler, but it's really hard to predict. Who would have ever guess that Peyton Manning would be a free agent?
Dream scenario is Tom Brady gets hurt this year, Ryan Mallet steps in and plays well. BOOM.

Marrdro
07-11-2013, 12:03 PM
I sure hope it's not Cutler, but it's really hard to predict. Who would have ever guess that Peyton Manning would be a free agent?
Dream scenario is Tom Brady gets hurt this year, Ryan Mallet steps in and plays well. BOOM.
I am still not sure about Cutler. I sure wanted him when he was a rookie. Still think we made a mistake not using our extra picks and going up and getting him and then passing on him again when we had the second chance to get him.

He was fine when he was behind a good OL and had a good guy calling plays for him in Denver.

And I'm still not sure why you think Mallet can run our version of the offense. What is even more confusing to me is that the Pats brought him in as a backup to Brady and they run almost the same offense that I think Musgrave is trying to do.

jmcdon00
07-11-2013, 02:14 PM
I am still not sure about Cutler. I sure wanted him when he was a rookie. Still think we made a mistake not using our extra picks and going up and getting him and then passing on him again when we had the second chance to get him.

He was fine when he was behind a good OL and had a good guy calling plays for him in Denver.

And I'm still not sure why you think Mallet can run our version of the offense. What is even more confusing to me is that the Pats brought him in as a backup to Brady and they run almost the same offense that I think Musgrave is trying to do.
I could point to his mediocre numbers, only 2 years out of 8 with over 3500 yards, 14+ interceptions in 6 of 8 seasons, career QB rating of 84.
But mostly I don't like him because he seems like a diva. He whined his way out of Denver, and married a reality tv star.

The dream scenario is Tom Brady becoming a Vikings. A long shot, but like I said who could have ever imagined Peyton Manning getting released. If Mallet took them to a Superbowl...
Actually when I first dreamed this Tom Brady theory up it was based on the fact that he has lost so many weapons, he could actually struggle, especially if Gronk doesn't come back healthy. Tom Brady is great, but losing Wes Welker, Aaron Hernandez, and The Gronk in one season is a lot for any QB to overcome.

Marrdro
07-12-2013, 10:10 AM
I could point to his mediocre numbers, only 2 years out of 8 with over 3500 yards, 14+ interceptions in 6 of 8 seasons, career QB rating of 84.
But mostly I don't like him because he seems like a diva. He whined his way out of Denver, and married a reality tv star.

The dream scenario is Tom Brady becoming a Vikings. A long shot, but like I said who could have ever imagined Peyton Manning getting released. If Mallet took them to a Superbowl...
Actually when I first dreamed this Tom Brady theory up it was based on the fact that he has lost so many weapons, he could actually struggle, especially if Gronk doesn't come back healthy. Tom Brady is great, but losing Wes Welker, Aaron Hernandez, and The Gronk in one season is a lot for any QB to overcome.
Of course Brady would be the perfect fit as we are trying to run the same scheme as they are. Should/would be pretty simple for him to step right in.

I wouldn't like Cutler now. I don't think he fits our scheme. I think of him as a more vertical guy than a Dink Dunker.

And the only time your gonna see ole Mallet Head at the SB is if he is sitting in the stands or on someones bench with a clipboard in his hand.

Lippythelion69
07-12-2013, 04:30 PM
Ponder does not seem to have consistent arm strength .
His down field passing is sorely lacking

singersp
07-13-2013, 10:16 AM
I sure hope it's not Cutler, but it's really hard to predict. BOOM.


I hope it's not Cutler either.....

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/singersp82759/Cutler_zpsd73c3af5.jpg (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/singersp82759/media/Cutler_zpsd73c3af5.jpg.html)

singersp
07-26-2013, 07:47 AM
Unfortunately for Vikings, Ponder is not the answer

Schnepf: Unfortunately for Vikings, Ponder is not the answer | INFORUM | Fargo, ND (http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/407044/)

vikinggreg
07-26-2013, 08:33 AM
Unfortunately for Vikings, Ponder is not the answer

Schnepf: Unfortunately for Vikings, Ponder is not the answer | INFORUM | Fargo, ND (http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/407044/)
Cassel’s numbers look as painfully feeble as Ponders I wonder if this writer noticed while he was picking his stats that Cassel had 9 games last year

Minniman
07-26-2013, 10:06 AM
I wonder if this writer noticed while he was picking his stats that Cassel had 9 games last year
I wonder too, as it looks like cherry picking, but if Cassel was benched for performance rather than injuries, aren't all of the stats fair game?

Our stat analysis here is better anyway. We know Ponder was by far the worst quarterback in the NFL with his 15+ yards passing game. A more detailed analysis would have given the author better statistics to support his premise.

I agree with the author that Ponder had not played well last season. That does not mean Ponder will not play well this season, but the indications are that Ponder has played just about as many scouts had predicted, and that does not bode well for his third campaign.

vikinggreg
07-26-2013, 10:24 AM
I wonder too, as it looks like cherry picking, but if Cassel was benched for performance rather than injuries, aren't all of the stats fair game?
yes and no, he was both but he was also on a dysfunctional Chiefs team (that has since purged) and I'd take some of that with a grain of salt and draw a parallel with last years Chiefs and the Bucs when they Doug Williams, Steve Young, Steve DeBerg, Vinnie Testaverde....its not like these guys wrapped up the wins when they were with that org but did have more success when they left and had a better environment. I think Cassell is a decent plan B, a step up over Webb and the team is in a better spot at that position then they were with Jackson and Frerotte....not by leaps and bounds mind you, but a few steps ahead.

Purple Floyd
07-26-2013, 01:58 PM
Yeah, he would be better looking at cassell in whole as he has had bad years on bad teams but also played well in NE and did have an 11-5 record in KC. If we put the talent around our QB we can do just fine.

NodakPaul
07-26-2013, 02:07 PM
Yeah, he would be better looking at cassell in whole as he has had bad years on bad teams but also played well in NE and did have an 11-5 record in KC. If we put the talent around our QB we can do just fine.

Agreed. And IMHO we have a decent amount of offensive talent on this team to surround the QB position.

marstc09
07-28-2013, 10:15 AM
If Ponder struggles to the point where Castle takes over, we're in big trouble at that point.

Castle is not all of the sudden going to light it up, though I could be wrong about him. He reminds me of a less savvy Brad Johnson.

I am thinking 1-4 or 2-5 might be bad enough to sit Ponder. At that point we're going to be digging ourselves out of a whole with..... Matt Castle? I highly doubt it.

His name is Cassel. Less savvy Brad Johnson?! Wow how soon some forget his time in New England and his shitty team in Kansas City. We are not in big trouble if Cassel starts......we are better off!

marstc09
07-28-2013, 10:30 AM
Unfortunately for Vikings, Ponder is not the answer

Schnepf: Unfortunately for Vikings, Ponder is not the answer | INFORUM | Fargo, ND (http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/407044/)

"Cassel is just waiting for Ponder to screw up"

Yup.

NodakPaul
07-28-2013, 09:14 PM
His name is Cassel. Less savvy Brad Johnson?! Wow how soon some forget his time in New England and his shitty team in Kansas City. We are not in big trouble if Cassel starts......we are better off!

Maybe he meant Eric Castle, former DB for the Chargers. If that is the case, he's right. We are in trouble if we have to start a retired defensive back at QB... :P

singersp
08-01-2013, 07:07 AM
Ponder still under pressure as still-developing Vikings quarterback begins crossroad season


During training camp so far, Ponder has done little so far to quash concerns. On one play, he'll zip a pass down the middle as a receiver breaks clear. On another, he'll sail a short throw well over the targeted out route. Most of his passes in team drills still travel less than 10 yards downfield, as the Vikings experiment with their playbook.

Ponder still under pressure as still-developing Vikings quarterback begins crossroad season - Seymour Tribune (http://www.tribtown.com/view/story/54311e44eb1e400ab758ac02939b63fe/FBN--Vikings-Ponder)

singersp
08-01-2013, 07:14 AM
Is Ponder the right QB for Vikings? The answer must wait

Is Ponder the right QB for Vikings? The answer must wait | Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/217855531.html)

jmcdon00
08-01-2013, 01:30 PM
His name is Cassel. Less savvy Brad Johnson?! Wow how soon some forget his time in New England and his shitty team in Kansas City. We are not in big trouble if Cassel starts......we are better off!
The year before Cassel became the NE starter Tom Brady threw 50 TD, and Randy Moss set the all time record for TD catches in a season. Cassel threw for 21TD that season, 11 to Randy Moss. Moss makes bad QB's look good, and good QB's look great, and great QB's look like legends. Cassel looked good.

NodakPaul
08-01-2013, 02:08 PM
The year before Cassel became the NE starter Tom Brady threw 50 TD, and Randy Moss set the all time record for TD catches in a season. Cassel threw for 21TD that season, 11 to Randy Moss. Moss makes bad QB's look good, and good QB's look great, and great QB's look like legends. Cassel looked good.

In 2010 with the Kansas City Chiefs, Cassel threw 27 TDs and only 7 INTs. As far as I can tell Moss wasn't on that team...

Randy Moss
08-01-2013, 02:26 PM
In 2010 with the Kansas City Chiefs, Cassel threw 27 TDs and only 7 INTs. As far as I can tell Moss wasn't on that team...

That year his QBR was lower than Ponder's of last year. Sorry, but I'm not buying the Cassel hype.

NodakPaul
08-01-2013, 02:48 PM
That year his QBR was lower than Ponder's of last year. Sorry, but I'm not buying the Cassel hype.

Don't you hate it when you think you made a really good point and then someone comes in and uses those pesky things known as facts to completely debunk what you just said?

Cassel in 2010:
Comp.% - 58.2%
Yards/Att. - 6.9
TD% - 6.00%
Int.% - 1.55%
NFL QB Rating - 92.972

Ponder in 2012:
Comp.% - 62.1%
Yards/Att. - 6.1
TD% - 3.73
Int.% - 2.48
NFL QB Rating - 81.233

jmcdon00
08-01-2013, 03:48 PM
Don't you hate it when you think you made a really good point and then someone comes in and uses those pesky things known as facts to completely debunk what you just said?

Cassel in 2010:
Comp.% - 58.2%
Yards/Att. - 6.9
TD% - 6.00%
Int.% - 1.55%
NFL QB Rating - 92.972

Ponder in 2012:
Comp.% - 62.1%
Yards/Att. - 6.1
TD% - 3.73
Int.% - 2.48
NFL QB Rating - 81.233
I think he was referring to the Total QBR(the one espn made up). Ponder was 53.8 last year, Cassel was 52.2 in 2010.
NFL Total Quarterback Rating - National Football League - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/year/2010/order/false)

jmcdon00
08-01-2013, 03:54 PM
In 2010 with the Kansas City Chiefs, Cassel threw 27 TDs and only 7 INTs. As far as I can tell Moss wasn't on that team...
Good point, I noticed that too, but it didn't fit the argument.
He's had a very up and down career, the last two years have been very down.

singersp
08-02-2013, 09:44 AM
I think he was referring to the Total QBR(the one espn made up). Ponder was 53.8 last year, Cassel was 52.2 in 2010.
NFL Total Quarterback Rating - National Football League - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/year/2010/order/false)

Unless I'm mistaken, the way I'm reading the way ESPN doles out the credit, a QB will get more credit for a 5 yard pass in the 4th quarter with no YAC than a QB who throws 20 yards that goes for an additional 20 YAC in the first quarter, because in the first scenario, the QB contributed more to the overall play at a more crucial time.

marstc09
08-03-2013, 02:04 AM
So the moral of the last couple posts is Cassel > Ponder.

Caine
08-03-2013, 09:57 AM
So the moral of the last couple posts is Cassel > Ponder.

I thought that was why we signed him....

I figured that the Coaching staff was doing another "Jackson is ready to start and lead this team"...only substituting Ponder....and having Frerotte (read that as Cassel) in the wings ready to actually move us forward if Jackson (Ponder) fails.

Caine

Purple Floyd
08-03-2013, 12:25 PM
I really haven't seen anything that tells me there is meaningful separation in talent between the two of them and IMO the success potential for the team lies in having a very balanced team with great overall depth on the roster. I am not saying we have that depth right now but the potential is there and that depth will dictate how far the team goes this season. Whether one or the other starts I don't see a big shift in win percentage either way.

marstc09
08-03-2013, 05:12 PM
There is no separation cause Cassel just got here.

NodakPaul
08-03-2013, 05:22 PM
Good point, I noticed that too, but it didn't fit the argument.
He's had a very up and down career, the last two years have been very down.

Yeah, I hear ya. Cassel isn't exactly the second coming of Favre, but there is something alluring about someone who has actually had a pro-bowl year... especially when the current QB struggles to be mediocre.

I just want one of the two to kick it into high gear and take us deep into the playoffs!

Ranger
08-03-2013, 10:26 PM
Yeah, I hear ya. Cassel isn't exactly the second coming of Favre, but there is something alluring about someone who has actually had a pro-bowl year... especially when the current QB struggles to be mediocre.

I just want one of the two to kick it into high gear and take us deep into the playoffs!

I think the problem is that even with poor quarterback play, our team is talented enough to keep us too low in the draft to get a good quarterback.

purplepat
08-04-2013, 06:27 AM
Do you think the Vikings would be open to Mortgaging the next 3 first round picks to move up to #1 or #2 to take Teddy Bridgewater?

If Ponder blows, Bridgewater could step right in, and probably lead us to the playoffs like RG3 did with Redskins. Bridgewater is suppose to be better than RG3 and Luck. Do you think the vikes would pull the trigger and save the franchises future? Or do we bring in a vet and try to "Make a run"

I hope to hell not. Three #1 picks is insane. I guess I'll have to see Bridgewater play, but the guy plays at Louisville for gosh sakes...not like he's putting up those numbers against SEC competition. I could see drafting him, maybe trading our 2014 and 2015 1sts to move up to get him, but not three #1s. No more Herschel Walker like stupidity, please!

Not sure if this thread has discussed who the FA QBs will be next season, but Josh Freeman might not be a horrible guy to look at, and I think his deal is up after this season.

singersp
08-04-2013, 09:07 AM
Yeah, I hear ya. Cassel isn't exactly the second coming of Favre, but there is something alluring about someone who has actually had a pro-bowl year... especially when the current QB struggles to be mediocre.

I just want one of the two to kick it into high gear and take us deep into the playoffs!

Deep?

How about all the way?

Purple Floyd
08-04-2013, 10:54 AM
Ponder Connects With Simpson Deep Down Field (http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/videos/Ponder-Connects-With-Simpson-Deep-Down-Field/29f5aedf-1618-4fff-8f54-02b5b1505ddf)

Purple Floyd
08-04-2013, 11:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2chXq74nScU&list=TLuW2RXopHWT4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2chXq74nScU&list=TLuW2RXopHWT4)

NodakPaul
08-04-2013, 05:36 PM
Deep?

How about all the way?

I would be fine with that. :)

At the same time I am a bit realistic. If Ponder or Cassel were to take the helm and lead the Vikings to one or two playoff wins, I would consider it a successful season... with something to build upon for next year.

I don't subscribe to the "season is a failure unless you win the superbowl" philosophy like some people do. For instance, I consider last year a success - taking a 3-13 team and getting them into the playoffs with a 10-6 record the next season = successful season... with something to build upon for the next year. Regressing or failing to build upon that is a failure IMHO.

NodakPaul
08-04-2013, 05:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2chXq74nScU&list=TLuW2RXopHWT4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2chXq74nScU&list=TLuW2RXopHWT4)

That video was pretty spot on.

Accurate passer who excels in the short game.
Mobile QB who can buy time.
High completion percentage in the short game.
Concerns about his arm strength.

So basically he excels at the short game, stuggles with the long game.

Unfortunately, that is not what we need when we have the best running back in the league and questionable receivers. If we ad the best WR corp in the league and a questionable RB, then maybe he would be more successful.