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singersp
06-21-2013, 08:59 AM
Harrison Smith: The new anchor of Minnesota's secondary

Vikings' Harrison Smith: The new anchor of Minnesota's secondary - TwinCities.com (http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_23503907/vikings-harrison-smith-new-anchor-minnesotas-secondary)

Mark_The_Viking
06-26-2013, 09:45 AM
Totally agree, he's like a throwback who plays the game hard but fair and is not afriad to put the big hits in. I really like the way he plays

Marrdro
07-01-2013, 01:17 PM
I still marvel at how great every one seems to think this kid is but in the next breath you will all say how shitty Jamarca is.....

Look, I love how you all glam onto the "Sexy INT" stats appreciate that he he graded out high in that area (Smitty 6th/Jamarca 38th), but he basically sucked vs the run (Smitty 71rst/Jamarca 26th).

But if you look at overall stats (Smitty 19th and Jamarca 24th) we have a pretty damn good set of S's that compliment each other.

Lets start looking at them in that light instead of how great one is because he made a INT or two (They actually floated to him in his zone instead of being coverage picks).

Marrdro
07-01-2013, 01:23 PM
Totally agree, he's like a throwback who plays the game hard but fair and is not afriad to put the big hits in. I really like the way he plays

And Jamarca didn't put a lick on anyone last year? QB Hits J2/S1 - QB Hurries J4/S1 - Missed Tackles J9/S12.

Again, I love the kid but lets give Jamarca his due here.

tastywaves
07-01-2013, 02:03 PM
And Jamarca didn't put a lick on anyone last year? QB Hits J2/S1 - QB Hurries J4/S1 - Missed Tackles J9/S12.

Again, I love the kid but lets give Jamarca his due here.

Jamarca picked up his game a lot last year. Enough to get a $2.5M/yr salary. Do you know where that puts him on our secondary salary list?

I said in earlier posts that I felt the safety position was the most improved part of our team last year. Both Smith and Sanford were the primary reasons.

Marrdro
07-01-2013, 02:12 PM
Jamarca picked up his game a lot last year. Enough to get a $2.5M/yr salary. Do you know where that puts him on our secondary salary list?

I said in earlier posts that I felt the safety position was the most improved part of our team last year. Both Smith and Sanford were the primary reasons.

And I found that post and gave you props for it old friend. :)

I haven't looked at where that breaks out but it sure isn't peanuts....Rhodes deal shouldn't be to much different than Smitty's one would think...

5/31/2012: Signed a four-year, $7,138,546 contract. The deal contains $5,775,109 guaranteed -- a $3,631,672 signing bonus and Smith's base salaries in years one through three. 2013: $714,479, 2014: $1,038,958, 2015: $1,363,437, 2016: Free Agent

Minnesota Vikings - NFL Team Contracts - Rotoworld.com (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/min/vikings)

tastywaves
07-01-2013, 02:30 PM
And I found that post and gave you props for it old friend. :)

I haven't looked at where that breaks out but it sure isn't peanuts....Rhodes deal shouldn't be to much different than Smitty's one would think...

5/31/2012: Signed a four-year, $7,138,546 contract. The deal contains $5,775,109 guaranteed -- a $3,631,672 signing bonus and Smith's base salaries in years one through three. 2013: $714,479, 2014: $1,038,958, 2015: $1,363,437, 2016: Free Agent

Minnesota Vikings - NFL Team Contracts - Rotoworld.com (http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/contracts/nfl/min/vikings)

According to Spotrac (Minnesota Vikings - 2013 Salary Cap Breakdown (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/minnesota-vikings/cap-hit/)), Sanford is currently our highest paid DB, followed by Cook and then Smith. Rhodes will be in the mix as well, but probably a little short as you state.

Winfield's cap hit was going to be around $7M this year, that is pretty close to what our top 4 DB's will get this year. We won't get off this cheap for long, but right now they are allowing us to invest a lot more into the DL which is where you see most of the spending happening on defense.
Some of this is overinflated this year due to the maturity of JA's contract. But this group is obviously where the vikings feel they need to invest the most.

Marrdro
07-01-2013, 02:46 PM
According to Spotrac (Minnesota Vikings - 2013 Salary Cap Breakdown (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/minnesota-vikings/cap-hit/)), Sanford is currently our highest paid DB, followed by Cook and then Smith. Rhodes will be in the mix as well, but probably a little short as you state.

Winfield's cap hit was going to be around $7M this year, that is pretty close to what our top 4 DB's will get this year. We won't get off this cheap for long, but right now they are allowing us to invest a lot more into the DL which is where you see most of the spending happening on defense.
Some of this is overinflated this year due to the maturity of JA's contract. But this group is obviously where the vikings feel they need to invest the most.

Nice link. I've never seen that one before.

Quick question, and I don't think anyone would mind if we go on a tangent here, how much do you give K-dubb to stay for 2 more years?

And then, who doesn't get added to the mix next year?

tastywaves
07-01-2013, 03:53 PM
Nice link. I've never seen that one before.

Quick question, and I don't think anyone would mind if we go on a tangent here, how much do you give K-dubb to stay for 2 more years?

And then, who doesn't get added to the mix next year?

This will probably be long winded, so hang with me and you'll get my thoughts.

2013 you have 3 big cap hits on the DL in the last year of their contracts:
JA: $17M
BR: $6.7M
KW: $5M

And one key player that is coming off his rookie contract in Everson Griffen.


Personally, I think JA can be solid for another 3-4 years, but wouldn't want to go over $10M/yr with him. This is a very key contract as it will more than likely determine the fate of either Robison or Griffen. Robison will still likely find money similar to what he's making today unless he stinks it up this year. Griffen will want his payday coming off his rookie contract and think he will want at least $5M/yr. If he can put in a good year, he will most likely find that money.

Floyd is a bargain for a few more years, if he can show he's capable of taking KW's spot then I wouldn't be surprised to see KW get let go. Guion/Ballard/Evans are all replacable, but show the value equal to their cap hit. It's also possible that we find out in 2013 that KW is still very valuable and we need to maintain a few more years. I would see a similar contract value to what he has today (~$5M/yr) maybe a little less, if the guaranteed money is low then better yet.

My understanding is that the salary cap is not expected to go up much. Currently JA, KW, BR and EG count right at $30M against the cap. If you follow my earlier assumptions these same 4 players would equal around $27M in 2014 cap hit. So you could keep them all and still have some extra money to throw around.

Simply put, I think KW can be signed for two additional years without necessarily booting one of the other premier DL spots. His play will dictate his worth and his salary and our salary cap will probably not be the deciding factor. JA is the key. If he is going to demand $12M+/yr, whether we keep him or not, will determine what happens to guys like KW.

Purple Floyd
07-01-2013, 07:46 PM
Personally, and without looking at the numbers, I think the FO has set us up nicely with the signing of Floyd and other moves to let KW finish out somewhere else and have the young guys step in and play. I am also on the record as saying we can let Robison go and give Griff a decent contract as I feel he is a better player overall. Allen- Love the guy. Hope he plays the rest of his career in Purple BUT not if he wants to break the bank to stay.

MaxVike
07-01-2013, 08:13 PM
This will probably be long winded, so hang with me and you'll get my thoughts.

2013 you have 3 big cap hits on the DL in the last year of their contracts:
JA: $17M
BR: $6.7M
KW: $5M

And one key player that is coming off his rookie contract in Everson Griffen.


Personally, I think JA can be solid for another 3-4 years, but wouldn't want to go over $10M/yr with him. This is a very key contract as it will more than likely determine the fate of either Robison or Griffen. Robison will still likely find money similar to what he's making today unless he stinks it up this year. Griffen will want his payday coming off his rookie contract and think he will want at least $5M/yr. If he can put in a good year, he will most likely find that money.

Floyd is a bargain for a few more years, if he can show he's capable of taking KW's spot then I wouldn't be surprised to see KW get let go. Guion/Ballard/Evans are all replacable, but show the value equal to their cap hit. It's also possible that we find out in 2013 that KW is still very valuable and we need to maintain a few more years. I would see a similar contract value to what he has today (~$5M/yr) maybe a little less, if the guaranteed money is low then better yet.

My understanding is that the salary cap is not expected to go up much. Currently JA, KW, BR and EG count right at $30M against the cap. If you follow my earlier assumptions these same 4 players would equal around $27M in 2014 cap hit. So you could keep them all and still have some extra money to throw around.

Simply put, I think KW can be signed for two additional years without necessarily booting one of the other premier DL spots. His play will dictate his worth and his salary and our salary cap will probably not be the deciding factor. JA is the key. If he is going to demand $12M+/yr, whether we keep him or not, will determine what happens to guys like KW.

Good post Tasty...and, good perspective. DL is a key to any Team's success, and, our Vikings have a great tradition. KWill is one of my have Vikes and I would hate to see him go. That said, if his play isn't up to the necessary level, it may be time :(. BRob will play lights out this year and force a decision between he and Griffen...not a bad scenario. JA...well, I agree, I think he can play for a bit longer - I think he's another guy who will deliver big time this year.

All that said, finding a way to sign them all would be a great outcome...I just don't see it. I think KWill and BRob are the odd men out - sadly. I think JA will be a focus, but, all of these points are based on a point in time and obviously subject to performance, and, the market.

Marrdro
07-02-2013, 01:48 PM
This will probably be long winded, so hang with me and you'll get my thoughts.

2013 you have 3 big cap hits on the DL in the last year of their contracts:
JA: $17M
BR: $6.7M
KW: $5M

And one key player that is coming off his rookie contract in Everson Griffen.


Personally, I think JA can be solid for another 3-4 years, but wouldn't want to go over $10M/yr with him. This is a very key contract as it will more than likely determine the fate of either Robison or Griffen. Robison will still likely find money similar to what he's making today unless he stinks it up this year. Griffen will want his payday coming off his rookie contract and think he will want at least $5M/yr. If he can put in a good year, he will most likely find that money.

Floyd is a bargain for a few more years, if he can show he's capable of taking KW's spot then I wouldn't be surprised to see KW get let go. Guion/Ballard/Evans are all replacable, but show the value equal to their cap hit. It's also possible that we find out in 2013 that KW is still very valuable and we need to maintain a few more years. I would see a similar contract value to what he has today (~$5M/yr) maybe a little less, if the guaranteed money is low then better yet.

My understanding is that the salary cap is not expected to go up much. Currently JA, KW, BR and EG count right at $30M against the cap. If you follow my earlier assumptions these same 4 players would equal around $27M in 2014 cap hit. So you could keep them all and still have some extra money to throw around.

Simply put, I think KW can be signed for two additional years without necessarily booting one of the other premier DL spots. His play will dictate his worth and his salary and our salary cap will probably not be the deciding factor. JA is the key. If he is going to demand $12M+/yr, whether we keep him or not, will determine what happens to guys like KW.
Good stuff but I think you missed a roster spot and didn't take into account that the staff might yet again try to add some youth at DT in next years draft.........

Fred Evans is the odd man out that clears a roster spot so you can keep K-dubb and still add a guy.

Marrdro
07-02-2013, 01:55 PM
Good post Tasty...and, good perspective. DL is a key to any Team's success, and, our Vikings have a great tradition. KWill is one of my have Vikes and I would hate to see him go. That said, if his play isn't up to the necessary level, it may be time :(. BRob will play lights out this year and force a decision between he and Griffen...not a bad scenario. JA...well, I agree, I think he can play for a bit longer - I think he's another guy who will deliver big time this year.

All that said, finding a way to sign them all would be a great outcome...I just don't see it. I think KWill and BRob are the odd men out - sadly. I think JA will be a focus, but, all of these points are based on a point in time and obviously subject to performance, and, the market.

Here is what I think happens (really I hope).....

JA resigns. Keeps the RDE spot. Griff resigns. Moves to LDE. Better suited than Rob. Like Ray Edwards, who added extra weight to move out there, I think Rob is going to start to break down a bit. Might even see that start mid to later part of this year.

Keep Guion, Lose Evans Resign Kdubb and draft one more kid next year. That would leave you with the following to mix and match and work in as a rotation.....

RDE - JA/ Johnson/Rookie
3 TEch - Kdub/Ballard/Shariff
1 Tech - Guion/Baker/Dawkins/Rookie
LDE - Griff/Jackson/Reed

tastywaves
07-02-2013, 02:47 PM
Good stuff but I think you missed a roster spot and didn't take into account that the staff might yet again try to add some youth at DT in next years draft.........

Fred Evans is the odd man out that clears a roster spot so you can keep K-dubb and still add a guy.

I was only trying to address your question about whether we would resign KW and if so, who would have to go.

Evans is a low cost rotational player (like Guion and Ballard) that could easily be replaced. He probably performed better than Guion though if you actually compared the two in 2012 and he came at half the cost. Guion did take quite a few more snaps.

But what I really want to know is why in the hell do you have our newly acquired warpig penciled in as a 3 technique....looks like yet another markup on the ol' Marrdro vocabulary spreadsheet.

Warpig -- big butted, 2 gap, hole stuffing monster. Any interior DL, just like using the word warpig.

I saw confusion coming, so felt compelled to edit. When we drafted Floyd, you proclaimed him the warpig we needed. When I questioned whether Floyd could really be categorized as a warpig (1-technique), you assured that he was. ;)

jmcdon00
07-02-2013, 04:15 PM
I still marvel at how great every one seems to think this kid is but in the next breath you will all say how shitty Jamarca is.....

Look, I love how you all glam onto the "Sexy INT" stats appreciate that he he graded out high in that area (Smitty 6th/Jamarca 38th), but he basically sucked vs the run (Smitty 71rst/Jamarca 26th).

But if you look at overall stats (Smitty 19th and Jamarca 24th) we have a pretty damn good set of S's that compliment each other.

Lets start looking at them in that light instead of how great one is because he made a INT or two (They actually floated to him in his zone instead of being coverage picks).
The eye ball test says that Smith is something special. Not only did get 3 picks, he returned two of them for a TD. He also delivered some monster hits, including the one that prevented a Megatron game tying TD.
The fact he was a rookie is even more impressive.

Purple Floyd
07-02-2013, 07:46 PM
I still marvel at how great every one seems to think this kid is but in the next breath you will all say how shitty Jamarca is.....

Look, I love how you all glam onto the "Sexy INT" stats appreciate that he he graded out high in that area (Smitty 6th/Jamarca 38th), but he basically sucked vs the run (Smitty 71rst/Jamarca 26th).

But if you look at overall stats (Smitty 19th and Jamarca 24th) we have a pretty damn good set of S's that compliment each other.

Lets start looking at them in that light instead of how great one is because he made a INT or two (They actually floated to him in his zone instead of being coverage picks).


Much of that stems from the fact that it was Smiths rookie year and he looked damn good for a rookie while JS was in his 4th year and by your own standard that is when they should be hitting on all cylinders or reaching the top of their game. I would expect by his 4th year Smith will be significantly better than JS was this year and just like Smith this year was light years better than JS was his rookie year.

That's all.

Marrdro
07-03-2013, 09:44 AM
Much of that stems from the fact that it was Smiths rookie year and he looked damn good for a rookie while JS was in his 4th year and by your own standard that is when they should be hitting on all cylinders or reaching the top of their game. I would expect by his 4th year Smith will be significantly better than JS was this year and just like Smith this year was light years better than JS was his rookie year.

That's all.
I can buy into that line of thought. Problem is, people still don't like Jamarca even though he was hitting on all cylinders.

To be graded out that high is remarkable and yet he is still hacked on by people because he didn't get the "Sexy" INT but because Smitty did get the "INT" his issues in run support are overlooked.

Believe it or not, FS's are still expected to play the run. Not just be good in the pass.

Marrdro
07-03-2013, 09:50 AM
The eye ball test says that Smith is something special. Not only did get 3 picks, he returned two of them for a TD. He also delivered some monster hits, including the one that prevented a Megatron game tying TD.
The fact he was a rookie is even more impressive.
OK, who gets credit for 2 of those picks? Smitty for catching the ball that was over thrown by the QB because he was under pressure or the DL for putting the pressure on the QB forcing him to make a bad throw.

Truth is, Smitty wasn't even close to a WR when he got 2 picks. He was standing back in the zone alone and one of them he was up in the middle zone and picked a bad throw to a WR that was being blanketed by a LB.

Back in his zone
Harrison Smith Interception #2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUUTM-othbs)

Short zone/LB covering
Minnesota Vikings safety Harrison Smith pick six - NFL Videos (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap1000000082842/Smith-pick-six)

Don't get me wrong, I love the kid. You all know my soft spot for S's (not named Sharper). Probably even going to step out and replace the old K-dubb with his jersey this year, but dang if Jamarca doesn't deserve some credit for not only his play but how his improved play allowed Harrison to do what he did this year.

Marrdro
07-03-2013, 10:00 AM
I was only trying to address your question about whether we would resign KW and if so, who would have to go.

Evans is a low cost rotational player (like Guion and Ballard) that could easily be replaced. He probably performed better than Guion though if you actually compared the two in 2012 and he came at half the cost. Guion did take quite a few more snaps.

But what I really want to know is why in the hell do you have our newly acquired warpig penciled in as a 3 technique....looks like yet another markup on the ol' Marrdro vocabulary spreadsheet.

Warpig -- big butted, 2 gap, hole stuffing monster. Any interior DL, just like using the word warpig.

I saw confusion coming, so felt compelled to edit. When we drafted Floyd, you proclaimed him the warpig we needed. When I questioned whether Floyd could really be categorized as a warpig (1-technique), you assured that he was. ;)

I haven't wavered. I still think he will be the guy at the 1 especially when he gets some reps under his belt. Again, that was based on what I watched of him and how he blew doubles up.

Think back to Johnnie Randle....Warpig? In my book yes. Probably more so that Phat Pat even though he was one as well.

You guys are the ones who seem to have classified my desire for a Warpig as someone who weighs a ton. Probably because most of them do. :) Very few are in the make of John Randle, I think Shariff is one of those rare cats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sICzQckt4Og
John Randle - Moment of Impact - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERsU3dsDYE)

tastywaves
07-03-2013, 10:24 AM
I haven't wavered. I still think he will be the guy at the 1 especially when he gets some reps under his belt. Again, that was based on what I watched of him and how he blew doubles up.

Think back to Johnnie Randle....Warpig? In my book yes. Probably more so that Phat Pat even though he was one as well.

You guys are the ones who seem to have classified my desire for a Warpig as someone who weighs a ton. Probably because most of them do. :) Very few are in the make of John Randle, I think Shariff is one of those rare cats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sICzQckt4Og
John Randle - Moment of Impact - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QERsU3dsDYE)


Since the term warpig has been thrown around so much on this site, mostly because of you introducing the term to us, can you do me a favor and give me the proper definition of a warpig so I can update my spreadsheet and make sure I'm using it in the right context?

I had it in my mind, that you were looking for the classic tampa 2, 1 technique DT where the primary responsibility is to take up two OL, cover 2 gaps and allow the 3 technique DT to benefit from a single blocker and penetrate into the backfield. Floyd sure seems more the 3 technique athletic penetrating type than he does a 1 technique. Not sure he is big enough or strong enough to play the classic 1 technique.

Then again, not sure how much we will stay true to the tampa 2 going forward. The approach of having athletic DL'men across the front 4 seems more the norm with the pass heavy offenses in the league.

Purple Floyd
07-03-2013, 04:29 PM
I can buy into that line of thought. Problem is, people still don't like Jamarca even though he was hitting on all cylinders.

To be graded out that high is remarkable and yet he is still hacked on by people because he didn't get the "Sexy" INT but because Smitty did get the "INT" his issues in run support are overlooked.

Believe it or not, FS's are still expected to play the run. Not just be good in the pass.

Well my friend, that is because he still doesn't pass the eye test in his fourth year when compared to a rookie. That isn't such a hard thing to understand. You can try to skew stats all day but like Big Tom Callahan said " I can take a look at a steak by looking up the cows ass but i'll take the butchers word for it":rofl:

jmcdon00
07-09-2013, 11:15 AM
OK, who gets credit for 2 of those picks? Smitty for catching the ball that was over thrown by the QB because he was under pressure or the DL for putting the pressure on the QB forcing him to make a bad throw.

Truth is, Smitty wasn't even close to a WR when he got 2 picks. He was standing back in the zone alone and one of them he was up in the middle zone and picked a bad throw to a WR that was being blanketed by a LB.

Back in his zone
Harrison Smith Interception #2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUUTM-othbs)

Short zone/LB covering
Minnesota Vikings safety Harrison Smith pick six - NFL Videos (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap1000000082842/Smith-pick-six)

Don't get me wrong, I love the kid. You all know my soft spot for S's (not named Sharper). Probably even going to step out and replace the old K-dubb with his jersey this year, but dang if Jamarca doesn't deserve some credit for not only his play but how his improved play allowed Harrison to do what he did this year.
Most interceptions are QB error. Yes luck is involved, but the good play makers are in the correct spot more often. Sanford has 2 int in his 4 year career, none returned for a TD.
Smith also had 11 pass deflections, Sanford has 10 in his 4 year career.
Smith had 1 sack, Sanford has 1 sack in 4 years.
Smith is a play maker, and a game changer.

jargomcfargo
07-09-2013, 01:54 PM
I can buy into that line of thought. Problem is, people still don't like Jamarca even though he was hitting on all cylinders.

To be graded out that high is remarkable and yet he is still hacked on by people because he didn't get the "Sexy" INT but because Smitty did get the "INT" his issues in run support are overlooked.

Believe it or not, FS's are still expected to play the run. Not just be good in the pass.

Interceptions are far more than 'sexy', they are game changers. Vikings recent history seems to undervalue db's who can hang on to the ball when the opportunity is there, or cover well for that matter. Even if it is zone coverage, the back needs to be able to cover within that zone.

Smith and now Rhodes seems to be trending toward improvement in coverage and ability to catch the ball.
Sanford is serviceable but is still out of position more than he should be. He works hard and is better than Raymond, but still needs to improve. Better play from Sanford and the nickel corner will give a healthy Jared Allen a fair shot at the sack record.

gregair13
07-09-2013, 04:52 PM
Smith will be awesome for years to come.

gregair13
07-09-2013, 04:53 PM
Smith will be awesome for years to come.

That post was from my phone. Cool.

Marrdro
07-10-2013, 01:06 PM
Interceptions are far more than 'sexy', they are game changers. Vikings recent history seems to undervalue db's who can hang on to the ball when the opportunity is there, or cover well for that matter. Even if it is zone coverage, the back needs to be able to cover within that zone.

Smith and now Rhodes seems to be trending toward improvement in coverage and ability to catch the ball.
Sanford is serviceable but is still out of position more than he should be. He works hard and is better than Raymond, but still needs to improve. Better play from Sanford and the nickel corner will give a healthy Jared Allen a fair shot at the sack record.
You can say that everyone has to improve but my point your missing is that Jamarca played well enough to grade out as the 26th best safety out of 88 that were graded.

That means he was head and shoulders about other teams starting FS's.

If he didn't do that last year, Smitty doesn't do what he did last year. Just that simple.

As to what is sexy and what isn't......Any turnover is a game changer, just not INT's. So are Sacks and Tackles for a loss. Guess which ones happen more often during the course of a game? Same ones that caused Smitty to get 2 gimme INT's last year.

You can put alot of value on a INT if you want, but I'd rather see consistent pressure from our front 4 getting that pressure on the QB (result INT or sack) and getting those tackles in the backfield (lots of fumbles).

Marrdro
07-10-2013, 01:11 PM
Most interceptions are QB error. Yes luck is involved, but the good play makers are in the correct spot more often. Sanford has 2 int in his 4 year career, none returned for a TD.
Smith also had 11 pass deflections, Sanford has 10 in his 4 year career.
Smith had 1 sack, Sanford has 1 sack in 4 years.
Smith is a play maker, and a game changer.
Usually FS are your play maker/game changer. Your SS is the guy that supports that effort. Much the same as your two DT's are the key to your DE's getting sacks and your LB's free to roam and make plays.

You can even break that down further to the role your Mike and your Sam play in this scheme which allows your Will to be the play maker.

Again, don't get me wrong, I love Smitty. Enjoy watching him come on and learn the game so fast but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the work Jamarca has put in over the years getting to the spot were he could play like he did last year.

By the way, if you (and I'm not pointing out anyone in particular) can't appreciate the differences between what a FS and a SS do to support each other in this scheme then my point will continue to be missed.

LOL, kindof makes me think back a few years ago when I first joined this site and had deep dark discussions with people on the differences between a RDE and a LDE.

Marrdro
07-10-2013, 01:13 PM
Well my friend, that is because he still doesn't pass the eye test in his fourth year when compared to a rookie. That isn't such a hard thing to understand. You can try to skew stats all day but like Big Tom Callahan said " I can take a look at a steak by looking up the cows ass but i'll take the butchers word for it":rofl:
LOL, you crack me up.

Quick question, who is the eye of the beholder? A guy who just wants his eyes to see INT's or a guy who wants to see that gap filled or a zone filled when the LB is asked to run blitz? Again, the run game isn't as sexy as an INT but it is just as important.

Heck, most of our fan base loved Whinny for his run support efforts, not sure why a SS can't get a bit of that love.

Marrdro
07-10-2013, 01:22 PM
Since the term warpig has been thrown around so much on this site, mostly because of you introducing the term to us, can you do me a favor and give me the proper definition of a warpig so I can update my spreadsheet and make sure I'm using it in the right context?

I had it in my mind, that you were looking for the classic tampa 2, 1 technique DT where the primary responsibility is to take up two OL, cover 2 gaps and allow the 3 technique DT to benefit from a single blocker and penetrate into the backfield. Floyd sure seems more the 3 technique athletic penetrating type than he does a 1 technique. Not sure he is big enough or strong enough to play the classic 1 technique.

Then again, not sure how much we will stay true to the tampa 2 going forward. The approach of having athletic DL'men across the front 4 seems more the norm with the pass heavy offenses in the league.
A true warpig is someone who can not only demand double teams but break them. I think that most associated that with the 1 tech because traditionally, that is your cat that does that and most of them are in the 330+ range.

I think Shariff, based on what I saw from tape on his collegiate career, is one of those cats. I not only think that, but I think he is going to be one of an even rarer cat and that is he will be able to do it from all 4 DLmen positions (ala John Randle) and not just the 1 tech.

I think that last part is what might confuse a few of you when I'm spewing forth my drivel (laced with alot of excitement) about this kid.

Again, he will get most of his early reps behind K-dubb, but as the year wears on, start looking for him to start eating reps at the 1 and the 5 tech as well.

I get chills just thinking about it. :)

As to the scheme.....I've seen a few things that make me question what the heck we are doing on the defensive side of the ball.

1. Leslie used to say we didn't have a FS and a SS, now our D-coord talks about it all the time.

2. The move of Guion to the 1 tech when he is clearly not suited to play there. That guy is a straight stick 3 tech.

3. The insistence of running beefed up RDE's over at LDE. Just like Edwards, I suspect we will start to see some of those ill effects showing on Rob from carrying that extra weight.

All things put together, what used to be our strength (top 10 vs run) went to crap last year. What were we ranked vs the run, something in the 20's I think. Yikes...

When you can't take the run away, teams have the luxury of hitting you 2 dimensionally vice one dimensionally and your back end is going to suffer considerably especially in pass defense.

tastywaves
07-10-2013, 04:20 PM
All things put together, what used to be our strength (top 10 vs run) went to crap last year. What were we ranked vs the run, something in the 20's I think. Yikes...

When you can't take the run away, teams have the luxury of hitting you 2 dimensionally vice one dimensionally and your back end is going to suffer considerably especially in pass defense.


According to NFL.com the Vikings ranked as follows on defense over the last 4 years (using yards):


Rush Defense Pass Defense Total
2009 2nd (87 ypg) 19th 6th (305 ypg)
2010 9th (102 ypg) 10th 8th (312 ypg)
2011 11th (107 ypg) 26th 21st (358 ypg)
2012 11th (106 ypg) 24th 16th (350 ypg)

We have slipped a bit on run defense as we typically ranked in the top 5 during much of Pat's reign. But our pass defense is still our biggest weakness on defense, even when our run defense was very strong.

My guess is that we will see similar run defensive rankings, but hopefully we can improve on the pass rankings. The talent to stop the run doesn't seem much improved, but pass rush and secondary play will hopefully be better.

On a side note, kind of interesting how the ypg stays farily consistent throughout the years from a rankings standpoint. Especially rushing ypg, passing ypg has been trending up a little bit.

jargomcfargo
07-10-2013, 10:22 PM
You can say that everyone has to improve but my point your missing is that Jamarca played well enough to grade out as the 26th best safety out of 88 that were graded.

That means he was head and shoulders about other teams starting FS's.

If he didn't do that last year, Smitty doesn't do what he did last year. Just that simple.

As to what is sexy and what isn't......Any turnover is a game changer, just not INT's. So are Sacks and Tackles for a loss. Guess which ones happen more often during the course of a game? Same ones that caused Smitty to get 2 gimme INT's last year.

You can put alot of value on a INT if you want, but I'd rather see consistent pressure from our front 4 getting that pressure on the QB (result INT or sack) and getting those tackles in the backfield (lots of fumbles).

Bleacher report has Sanford ranked 24 out of 57 safeties. Football Nation has Smith ranked 7th and Sanford isn't ranked in the top 40.
What is your source that ranks Sanford 26th out of 88 ?
Even if your source is accurate, Sanford is only slightly above average, and that could improve.
And I will take an interception over a sack or tackle behind the line any time.
Seems you only read the first sentence of the post and ignored the rest!

Marrdro
07-11-2013, 10:26 AM
Bleacher report has Sanford ranked 24 out of 57 safeties. Football Nation has Smith ranked 7th and Sanford isn't ranked in the top 40.
What is your source that ranks Sanford 26th out of 88 ?
Even if your source is accurate, Sanford is only slightly above average, and that could improve.
And I will take an interception over a sack or tackle behind the line any time.
Seems you only read the first sentence of the post and ignored the rest!
The best site out there for stats.....LOL, a hell of alot more reputable that BR and Football Nation (I havent been to that site in a while, what do they track, 4 or 5 statistical catagories....Sacks and INT being the top 2). Cracks me up that BR is even allowed in a discussion on this site based on a few posters (Caine) opinion of that site.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2012&pos=S&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

Overall Harrison 19th, Jamarca 24th out of 88. Not 40, not 57...88.

And I always read the whole post. Always. Doesn't change a thing even if I didn't. Your opinion over Jamarca will still be based on you watching him on the field when he was learning and that he plays SS not FS which doesn't really equate to INT's which you seem to crave.

Marrdro
07-11-2013, 10:50 AM
According to NFL.com the Vikings ranked as follows on defense over the last 4 years (using yards):


Rush Defense Pass Defense Total
2009 2nd (87 ypg) 19th 6th (305 ypg)
2010 9th (102 ypg) 10th 8th (312 ypg)
2011 11th (107 ypg) 26th 21st (358 ypg)
2012 11th (106 ypg) 24th 16th (350 ypg)

We have slipped a bit on run defense as we typically ranked in the top 5 during much of Pat's reign. But our pass defense is still our biggest weakness on defense, even when our run defense was very strong.

My guess is that we will see similar run defensive rankings, but hopefully we can improve on the pass rankings. The talent to stop the run doesn't seem much improved, but pass rush and secondary play will hopefully be better.

On a side note, kind of interesting how the ypg stays farily consistent throughout the years from a rankings standpoint. Especially rushing ypg, passing ypg has been trending up a little bit.
My apologies for being so far off on the run defense ranking. Shows how poor my memory is.

One thing we will always differ on I guess is you think that our pass defense (backend) will improve our run defense and I think our run defense (front 4) improves our pass defense. :)

jargomcfargo
07-11-2013, 11:24 AM
The best site out there for stats.....LOL, a hell of alot more reputable that BR and Football Nation (I havent been to that site in a while, what do they track, 4 or 5 statistical catagories....Sacks and INT being the top 2). Cracks me up that BR is even allowed in a discussion on this site based on a few posters (Caine) opinion of that site.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2012&pos=S&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

Overall Harrison 19th, Jamarca 24th out of 88. Not 40, not 57...88.

And I always read the whole post. Always. Doesn't change a thing even if I didn't. Your opinion over Jamarca will still be based on you watching him on the field when he was learning and that he plays SS not FS which doesn't really equate to INT's which you seem to crave.

Since what I see on the field is of little to no value, I shall yield to your wealth of experience and expertise. Sanford is great and single handedly responsible for anything Smith achieved last season!
BTW, I agree with Caine, Bleacher Report isn't worth reading. I used it as a reference because you quote their articles.
If you don't already, you should write for them.
Like CmacD, I'm a little frustrated with the lack of Lombardi trophies.
So if the explanation for mediocrity is due to scheme or stats, I hesitate to accept either as an excuse.

Marrdro
07-11-2013, 11:29 AM
Since what I see on the field is of little to no value, I shall yield to your wealth of experience and expertise. Sanford is great and single handedly responsible for anything Smith achieved last season!
BTW, I agree with Caine, Bleacher Report isn't worth reading. I used it as a reference because you quote their articles.
If you don't already, you should write for them.
Like CmacD, I'm a little frustrated with the lack of Lombardi trophies.
So if the explanation for mediocrity is due to scheme or stats, I hesitate to accept either as an excuse.

I think your missing my point because I said no such a thing. I said that they both play well together. One can't do what the other did last year without damn fine play from the other S.

Sanford for the most part concentrated on the run (Ranked pretty damn high were-as Smitty was at the bottom of the pack) and Smitty excelled in the passing game.

Again, I get that you want him better in coverage. I have no beef with that. I'm just saying that for a kid that was playing FS he didn't do to bad in that regard.

By the way, I am contributing to a site every once in a while when the urge hits me, but its not the BR site. I think Caine would have me blackballed if I did that. :)

tastywaves
07-11-2013, 07:19 PM
My apologies for being so far off on the run defense ranking. Shows how poor my memory is.

One thing we will always differ on I guess is you think that our pass defense (backend) will improve our run defense and I think our run defense (front 4) improves our pass defense. :)


Never said anything of the sort. I think what I implied was that one doesn't necessarily impact the other.

The point we've always debated is whether you need a competent secondary along with a good pass rush to be effective in pass defense. I maintain both are important, whereas you generally emphasize the line play over all else.

Marrdro
07-12-2013, 10:11 AM
Never said anything of the sort. I think what I implied was that one doesn't necessarily impact the other.

The point we've always debated is whether you need a competent secondary along with a good pass rush to be effective in pass defense. I maintain both are important, whereas you generally emphasize the line play over all else.
Well, that is kindof what I was trying to say. :)