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kevoncox
01-21-2013, 08:49 AM
Just wanted to point out that building the theory of building through the draft only is a myth. To be a successful team, you have to build with balance. It takes a combination of hits in FA and drafting to be able to field a competitive team. Don't believe me, look at the two teams that are fighting for the Superbowl.
B'more and 49ers. They drafted a solid OL but supplemented it with WRs from other teams.

49ers
Signed: Manningham, Moss, Ginn
Drafted: Crabtree and Davis

Look at their Defense
Drafted Willis, Bowman
Signed: Rodgers, Justin Smith

B'More
They could draft defensive talent for days but were always unable to draft a WR corps. What did they do? They went out and signed 2 of their top 3 WRs from other teams in Boldin, and Jones. There starting LT is our cast off as well as their starting Center. They also went out and signed the best FB to block for their RB.

My point in all of this is that more and more people are falling into this spell in believing that the draft is the only way to build a team, when in fact it takes balance and luck to create a winner. Our FO seems to be trying to draft a team and supplement it with scraps when it takes making a major investment in FA here or there.

drakkar
01-21-2013, 08:54 AM
I think you essentially build thru the draft. The core of both those teams was built thru the draft. they just finished the project thru FA. The Jets & Redskins over the years have tried to build thru FA and it never worked. Skins are set up for the future now that Shanny changed that culture and the Jets are one of the worst teams in the NFL and stuck there for a while.

kevoncox
01-21-2013, 09:05 AM
I think you essentially build thru the draft. The core of both those teams was built thru the draft. they just finished the project thru FA. The Jets & Redskins over the years have tried to build thru FA and it never worked. Skins are set up for the future now that Shanny changed that culture and the Jets are one of the worst teams in the NFL and stuck there for a while.

What the skins did in the late 1990's was abysmal and not advisable. I still believe it takes balance. I don't think the core of those teams were built thru the draft. It seems like it's about half and half. If you build through the draft...by the time your stars become stars, their contracts are up and you end up losing most of your best players.

Examine any team and you see a great deal of starters that were signed and not drafted.
It's nothing different than we did during our run in 2009. We had about 1 key starter on every level that we did not draft

Allen, Leber, Winfield is no different than Smith, Brooks, Rogers

Purple Floyd
01-21-2013, 09:48 AM
Just wanted to point out that building the theory of building through the draft only is a myth. To be a successful team, you have to build with balance. It takes a combination of hits in FA and drafting to be able to field a competitive team. Don't believe me, look at the two teams that are fighting for the Superbowl.
B'more and 49ers. They drafted a solid OL but supplemented it with WRs from other teams.

49ers
Signed: Manningham, Moss, Ginn
Drafted: Crabtree and Davis

Look at their Defense
Drafted Willis, Bowman
Signed: Rodgers, Justin Smith

B'More
They could draft defensive talent for days but were always unable to draft a WR corps. What did they do? They went out and signed 2 of their top 3 WRs from other teams in Boldin, and Jones. There starting LT is our cast off as well as their starting Center. They also went out and signed the best FB to block for their RB.

My point in all of this is that more and more people are falling into this spell in believing that the draft is the only way to build a team, when in fact it takes balance and luck to create a winner. Our FO seems to be trying to draft a team and supplement it with scraps when it takes making a major investment in FA here or there.
B.S. The two most important positions on baltimore's OL (C and LT) they got directly from the Vikings. That is where the whole "we need to draft Kalil because he will protect the QB's blindside and give the WR's time to run their routes" falls apart. We got rid of 2 guys that many thought were useless or done for and replaced them with 2 guys that are supposedly top 5 in the league and guess who is in the SB? And the WR we traded away is playing in his second SB with 2 different teams while we have been to zero.

The Ravens drafted their best WR and the niners drafted Crabtree very high in the draft and he has been huge for the team. Manningham isn't even playing for the niners right now and for Baltimore, they drafted their best WR.

The difference between the teams in the SB and those who are always average is the FO and coaching staff and how they deal with the players and what they get out of them.

kevoncox
01-21-2013, 10:41 AM
B.S. The two most important positions on baltimore's OL (C and LT) they got directly from the Vikings. That is where the whole "we need to draft Kalil because he will protect the QB's blindside and give the WR's time to run their routes" falls apart. We got rid of 2 guys that many thought were useless or done for and replaced them with 2 guys that are supposedly top 5 in the league and guess who is in the SB? And the WR we traded away is playing in his second SB with 2 different teams while we have been to zero.

The Ravens drafted their best WR and the niners drafted Crabtree very high in the draft and he has been huge for the team. Manningham isn't even playing for the niners right now and for Baltimore, they drafted their best WR.

The difference between the teams in the SB and those who are always average is the FO and coaching staff and how they deal with the players and what they get out of them.

Actually, at that point I was talking about San Fran.
Also, the Raven's best WR is not Smith, its Boldin. He does the grunt work while smith goes deep and looks good. However, game on line, Flacco goes to Boldin.
You can't say that adding Khalil didn't make us a better team. Our RB just set career marks and our QB, that cannot throw actual had time to throw. If C. Johnson was still playing LT none of that would happen. We have 3 great WRs available in FA this year. What great LT are going to be free agents? Jake Long? and they will franchise him unlike Welker, Bowe and Jennings.

mountainviking
01-21-2013, 12:18 PM
With the salary cap where it is and not going up like it was, you kind of have to focus on the draft. It's the only way to get talented players on reasonable contracts. No matter how bad some fans want to, we just cannot sign the biggest named/highest priced Free Agent at whatever our biggest need is every year. There just aren't enough dollars to go around.

We're looking at roughly 12.5 million in cap space, but we're also looking at 10 of our own guys set to be free agents and several of them are starters: Felton, Loadholt, Brinkley, Henderson, Sanford etc. And then there's Harvin who is expecting a big pay day. I don't see that we have much choice in FA this year because there's not going to be much room left to work with after we tie up some of our own loose ends.

Besides, all three of those "top WRs" are most likely going to be way overpaid by a team with a better QB throwing them the ball than what we've been showing. Do you think Jennings or Wallace are going to be stoked to go from Rodgers or Big Ben to Ponder!??? And with Reid in KC, I've got a good guess Bowe stays put. If we do bring in one of those guys for an interview, it'll likely just be raising the contract they sign with somebody else.

Spielman came out of last year looking pretty freaking smart, but he did have the 3rd pick in each round to work with. Won't be nearly as easy swinging 20 picks later. But we can hope to come up with 4 or 5 starters in the first 4 rounds, can't we? ;)

It's going to be an interesting offseason...just to see what happens with perhaps a Harvin or Allen trade, and/or whether Ole Bizzdealski can work something out with guys like Winny and Allen to maybe extend them and spread out the cap hits to make room for some depth upgrades elsewhere.

These guys really got their work cut out for them, cuz 10-6 raised expectations for next year by a shit load, and we've still got plenty of holes that need plugging...specially if we don't keep a bunch of our own FAs!

Purple Floyd
01-21-2013, 02:21 PM
Actually, at that point I was talking about San Fran.
Also, the Raven's best WR is not Smith, its Boldin. He does the grunt work while smith goes deep and looks good. However, game on line, Flacco goes to Boldin.

Who did he go to when the game was on the line against Denver?




You can't say that adding Khalil didn't make us a better team.

What I said was we didn't have to get rid of Birk and McKinney to get an OL that could get us to the SB and that was just backed up yesterday. Did he improve the team over having no LT? Sure. But if we would have kept McKinney and Birk and spent the Sullivan and Kalil picks on WR's or DB's our team would have been better too.




Our RB just set career marks and our QB, that cannot throw actual had time to throw. If C. Johnson was still playing LT none of that would happen.


Well, that wasn't only because of Kalil. A large number of his yards went away from him and he could have had just as many with Birk and Mckinney on the OL and we could have used the picks we used to replace them on WR's and other players



We have 3 great WRs available in FA this year. What great LT are going to be free agents? Jake Long? and they will franchise him unlike Welker, Bowe and Jennings.
And you are willing to pay a big name WR in FA when we are already having cap troubles? Nice.

Caine
01-21-2013, 02:55 PM
I've been saying for quite awhile that the "Elite LT" line is complete BS. The only reason we can name Baltimore's LT is because we cut his fat, over-hyped ass.

Balance in building a team is essential, but the KEY is to not close doors or ignore opportunities.

Example: Randy Moss - Despite what some here have trumpeted (Marrdro), Randy still had gas in the tank. in fact, he was about as productive as many of OUR receivers, despite playing in only 9 games. Had we been open to the idea of bringing Randy back, we would ahve had a veteran player in the position who can actually get open and catch (Something our guys can't do). But, we didn't.

Now, is Randy the reason SF is in the Superbowl? No. But his signing is an indication of why they're there. they saw an opportunity,and took it.

We don't do that.

If we want to be successful, we need to start.

Caine

marshallvike
01-21-2013, 05:57 PM
Good points by all in this thread. I will add my useless 2c. I don't think anyone believes you can build an entire team through the draft only. The only way to stay successful, however is to draft successfully. I like the way Spielman handled it this past offseason. We had soooooo many needs, it needed to start with the draft. We were not in a good cap position to buy a team, and that doesn't work well anyway. No one,(including our front office,IMO) thought we were going to make the huge strides this year that we did. In hindsight, we could have gone after a top line WR, but it did not appear after last season that that would be the only thing keeping us from a championship. There did not seem to be a reason to go in that direction until we had filled out the core of our team first. Little did we know that we would be one of the better teams in the league this year. Now that we know where we stand, a good draft, and whichever free agents we have the ability to sign, can be the course of action. Keeping some of our own will also hinder what we will be able to do in free agency. All in all, I like the direction we are headed, and hopefully, we continue to improve.

i_bleed_purple
01-21-2013, 08:48 PM
Just wanted to point out that building the theory of building through the draft only is a myth. To be a successful team, you have to build with balance. It takes a combination of hits in FA and drafting to be able to field a competitive team. Don't believe me, look at the two teams that are fighting for the Superbowl.
B'more and 49ers. They drafted a solid OL but supplemented it with WRs from other teams.

49ers
Signed: Manningham, Moss, Ginn
Drafted: Crabtree and Davis

Look at their Defense
Drafted Willis, Bowman
Signed: Rodgers, Justin Smith
Your forgetting a few big ones. Drafted Willis, drafted bowman, drafted kap,their team is mainly built through the draft.

B'More
They could draft defensive talent for days but were always unable to draft a WR corps. What did they do? They went out and signed 2 of their top 3 WRs from other teams in Boldin, and Jones. There starting LT is our cast off as well as their starting Center. They also went out and signed the best FB to block for their RB.

My point in all of this is that more and more people are falling into this spell in believing that the draft is the only way to build a team, when in fact it takes balance and luck to create a winner. Our FO seems to be trying to draft a team and supplement it with scraps when it takes making a major investment in FA here or there.[/QUOTE]

Ltrey33
01-21-2013, 10:24 PM
Well, that wasn't only because of Kalil. A large number of his yards went away from him and he could have had just as many with Birk and Mckinney on the OL and we could have used the picks we used to replace them on WR's and other players

Letting Birk go was a mistake. I thought so when it happened and I still think so today. Sullivan has done a nice job, but he's still a few years away from moving out of Birk's shadow.

That said, I will take Kalil over McKinnie any day of the week. To say that McKinnie should still be on this team lacks any sense of historical consciousness. The fact of the matter is, he showed up way out of shape multiple times and, it seemed, was generally disinterested in making himself better. Frasier chose to use McKinnie to send a message that the culture was changing and that he wasn't going to take that kind of crap. Heck, even AFTER he was re-signed McKinnie showed up fat and out of shape to Ravens camp. I still say good riddance to him.

singersp
01-22-2013, 07:04 AM
You have to build both thru FA & the draft & once you have your competitive team, you should maintain & improve it via the draft & acquire FA as necessary depending on how many players you lose & who you lose.

If you try to build solely thru the draft & land a couple of good players every year, it will take 11 years to build that team with solid starters & that's only if you don't lose anyone to FA. Owners won't stand for a mediocre team for a better part of that 11 years, plus the better your team becomes, the later you pick in the draft.

If your rebuilding a team with essentially the same coaching staff to replace aged players, then you failed to find talented replacement players for your aging veterans thru several years of the draft &/or failed to keep the decent younger players you had drafted during that time.

Purple Floyd
01-22-2013, 07:31 AM
That said, I will take Kalil over McKinnie any day of the week. To say that McKinnie should still be on this team lacks any sense of historical consciousness. The fact of the matter is, he showed up way out of shape multiple times and, it seemed, was generally disinterested in making himself better. Heck, even AFTER he was re-signed McKinnie showed up fat.

I have plenty of historical consciousness. If you read my last line I clearly stated that the difference is that their front office and coaches knew how to get him to respond and fall in line while ours didn't and decided to cut him outright instead of figuring out how to make him happy or at least productive like the Ravens staff did.
Would you also rather have had Charlie Johnson last year than McKinney? If so, see the historical consciousness thing. As far as Kalil, my guess is would prefer any
Player available over who we had. I would certainly take Claiborne over any CB we had on the field at the end of the previous season and would take Blackmon over any WR on the team too that he would have replaced.

NodakPaul
01-22-2013, 10:04 AM
I have plenty of historical consciousness. If you read my last line I clearly stated that the difference is that their front office and coaches knew how to get him to respond and fall in line while ours didn't and decided to cut him outright instead of figuring out how to make him happy or at least productive like the Ravens staff did.
Would you also rather have had Charlie Johnson last year than McKinney? If so, see the historical consciousness thing. As far as Kalil, my guess is would prefer any
Player available over who we had. I would certainly take Claiborne over any CB we had on the field at the end of the previous season and would take Blackmon over any WR on the team too that he would have replaced.

To be fair, I think it took McKinney getting cut for him to see the light and start being productive again. I don't think that any staff could have had success with him prior to that.

Ranger
01-22-2013, 02:07 PM
Just wanted to point out that building the theory of building through the draft only is a myth. To be a successful team, you have to build with balance. It takes a combination of hits in FA and drafting to be able to field a competitive team. Don't believe me, look at the two teams that are fighting for the Superbowl.
B'more and 49ers. They drafted a solid OL but supplemented it with WRs from other teams.

49ers
Signed: Manningham, Moss, Ginn
Drafted: Crabtree and Davis

Look at their Defense
Drafted Willis, Bowman
Signed: Rodgers, Justin Smith

B'More
They could draft defensive talent for days but were always unable to draft a WR corps. What did they do? They went out and signed 2 of their top 3 WRs from other teams in Boldin, and Jones. There starting LT is our cast off as well as their starting Center. They also went out and signed the best FB to block for their RB.

My point in all of this is that more and more people are falling into this spell in believing that the draft is the only way to build a team, when in fact it takes balance and luck to create a winner. Our FO seems to be trying to draft a team and supplement it with scraps when it takes making a major investment in FA here or there.

The Ravens drafted three defensive players of the year (Reed, Lewis, Suggs) and one who easily could have been (Ngata). The Ravens drafted Rice, Flacco, and Webb.

The free agency period augmented a strong core built through the draft.

The 49ers drafted Alex Smith, Gore, Kaepernick, Aldon Smith, and those mikes you mentioned. Again, the core of the team was drafted, the free agents augmented the team.

If you try to create a team via free agency, you wind up with the dream team Eagles or the decade long failure that was the Redskins...until they started drafting good players.

Ranger
01-22-2013, 02:11 PM
To further clarify, I don't believe that there is a belief that you build a team only through the draft. I think that people mean that you should build the core of your team through the draft, and then add key pieces when available through free agency. Claiming that people completely disregard the need for the occasional free agent acquisition in lieu of "building through the draft" is a straw man.

kevoncox
01-22-2013, 07:34 PM
To further clarify, I don't believe that there is a belief that you build a team only through the draft. I think that people mean that you should build the core of your team through the draft, and then add key pieces when available through free agency. Claiming that people completely disregard the need for the occasional free agent acquisition in lieu of "building through the draft" is a straw man.

What would you call what we have been doing lately?
I'm not saying that anyone believes that you don't sign 1 free agent. What I am saying is the belief that the draft is a cure all for a team is silly. The names you added are correct, what you neglect however was to address my point that both teams have players great talents at each level of their defenses that were not drafted but signed a key Free agents. For every player you named I can name a big name FA signing that helped the team just as much.

B'More..
Rice - Leech
Oher - McK, Birk
Smith - Boldin, Jones

I say a core just as big was added from FA.
2/5ths of the Oline
2/3rds of the Starting WRs.
1/2 of your backfield.

Care to do the 49ers.. cause that's even worst. We can do the Pats and Flacons if you want.
All I am saying is a team that forgets FA is typically as lost.

i_bleed_purple
01-22-2013, 07:39 PM
To be successful, you need to build through the draft, and supplement your draft with a couple FA players who suit your needs.

Look at the Ravens. They draft their core players. Flacco, Rice, Smith, Dickson, and their Defense.

THey signed some low-key but productive players like Leach. And over the course of 3-4 years they signed a couple good players like Birk and Boldin. THey took a risk on McKinnie, and almost cut him until he pulled his head out of his ass. They are mostly a drafted team, or a team acquired over the course of the past 7 years or so.

The 49ers are even more draft-based than the Ravens.
On defense, they drafted:
Sopoaga
Francois
MacDonald
Brown
Willis
Bowman
Goldson


In fact, the only guys they didn't draft were:
Carlos Rogers
Amad Brooks
Donte Whitner
Aldon Smith


You can't win if you can't draft well.

kevoncox
01-22-2013, 07:46 PM
To be successful, you need to build through the draft, and supplement your draft with a couple FA players who suit your needs.

Look at the Ravens. They draft their core players. Flacco, Rice, Smith, Dickson, and their Defense.

THey signed some low-key but productive players like Leach. And over the course of 3-4 years they signed a couple good players like Birk and Boldin. THey took a risk on McKinnie, and almost cut him until he pulled his head out of his ass. They are mostly a drafted team, or a team acquired over the course of the past 7 years or so.

The 49ers are even more draft-based than the Ravens.
On defense, they drafted:
Sopoaga
Francois
MacDonald
Brown
Willis
Bowman
Goldson


In fact, the only guys they didn't draft were:
Carlos Rogers
Amad Brooks
Donte Whitner
Aldon Smith
You can't win if you can't draft well.

Justin Smith!
You forgot almost their entire starting offense and 3/4ths of their WR core
Moss, Manningham, Ginn.

So let me get this straight.
2/4 starting Dbs
2/4 Starting LBs
1/3 of their DL
But you think the core was strictly drafted.

On offense it's a little better with
3/4ths of their WRs
2/5th of the oline

But by my count that's 10 out of 22 or almost 1/2 of the starters on the team.
#FunnyMath

Purple Floyd
01-22-2013, 10:54 PM
To be fair, I think it took McKinney getting cut for him to see the light and start being productive again. I don't think that any staff could have had success with him prior to that.
Conjecture.

singersp
01-23-2013, 05:55 AM
To be fair, I think it took McKinney getting cut for him to see the light and start being productive again. I don't think that any staff could have had success with him prior to that.

Don't forget besides being unemployed, he owed over $4million to Pro Player Funding for the high interest loan he took during the lockout, which came due in full when he missed a payment on after the Vikings cut him. That's a hell of a chunk of incentive to keep your next paying job if you get one.

Kind of hard to pay that back on a Walmart salary.

singersp
01-23-2013, 06:34 AM
Some people believe we first started rebuilding this team in 2011. We've been rebuilding this team since 2006 when we went a different direction on offense when Childress took over. When Frasier took over we kept the same WCO offense & the same Tampa 2/Zone defense so to say we started rebuilding after Frazier took over IMO doesn't hold weight.

Spielman has overseen every draft & player transaction since May of 2006 so to say we started rebuilding only after he was officially titled GM IMO is a stretch as well.

The fact that we recently let go or didn't resign several aging veteran players & had to replace them with younger talent doesn't mean we are rebuilding, it means we failed to address our aging players via the draft or failed to draft suitable replacements over the last 7 years.

kevoncox
01-23-2013, 07:48 AM
Some people believe we first started rebuilding this team in 2011. We've been rebuilding this team since 2006 when we went a different direction on offense when Childress took over. When Frasier took over we kept the same WCO offense & the same Tampa 2/Zone defense so to say we started rebuilding after Frazier took over IMO doesn't hold weight.

Spielman has overseen every draft & player transaction since May of 2006 so to say we started rebuilding only after he was officially titled GM IMO is a stretch as well.

The fact that we recently let go or didn't resign several aging veteran players & had to replace them with younger talent doesn't mean we are rebuilding, it means we failed to address our aging players via the draft or failed to draft suitable replacements over the last 7 years.

great point

Marrdro
01-23-2013, 02:50 PM
KEY NOTE: I had a real nice spreadsheet that combined data from the following url for the last 4 teams standing but the site wouldn't let me post it because it was to big.......

http://www.purplepride.org/f2/building-through-draft-myth-1111102/index3.html

Its an interesting study to look at not only the last 4 teams standing, but all of the teams that had success this year. Most of their corps players came from the draft and were resigned. FA did have a role when it came to areas that a staff continually missed on or when they lost a guy they had drafted, developed to be a starter to a team with more money.

Unlike my good friend Kevon. I believe that the best teams, who are consistently in the running every year, are the ones that maintain some sort of consistency at the HC position and the GM position.

This allows you to continually adjust your roster via the draft to make sure you not only have a good young 3 -5 year starter on the roster at most starting position, but have someone 1-3 years waiting in the weeds, watching and learning.

When, and only when, you lose that starter and don't have depth do you reach out to the FA market and add someone.

So, to recap for Steve and Ibleed who will get something wrong in this,......it isn't the teams that have balance, its the teams that have consistency in their leadership. :)

vikinggreg
01-23-2013, 11:08 PM
To be fair, I think it took McKinney getting cut for him to see the light and start being productive again. I don't think that any staff could have had success with him prior to that.

McKinney also had to take a pay cut to stay with the Ravens this year and lost his starting job to Oher at LT earlier in the season


Left tackle Bryant McKinnie, whose offseason problems with playing shape and a late arrival to training camp, didn't make his first start of the season until the wild-card playoff game against Indianapolis.

LINK
(http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/63651/blogger-blitz-ravens-offensive-line)

singersp
01-24-2013, 06:13 AM
McKinney also had to take a pay cut to stay with the Ravens this year and lost his starting job to Oher at LT earlier in the season

LINK
(http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/63651/blogger-blitz-ravens-offensive-line)

I don't think he lost his starting job to Oher as it was never his to lose. Oher started all 16 games at LT while McKinnie rode the pine.

singersp
01-24-2013, 06:23 AM
I have plenty of historical consciousness. If you read my last line I clearly stated that the difference is that their front office and coaches knew how to get him to respond and fall in line while ours didn't and decided to cut him outright instead of figuring out how to make him happy or at least productive like the Ravens staff did.

And it only took them 18 weeks to do it.

He never even started a game until postseason.

Purple Floyd
01-24-2013, 08:27 AM
I have plenty of historical consciousness. If you read my last line I clearly stated that the difference is that their front office and coaches knew how to get him to respond and fall in line while ours didn't and decided to cut him outright instead of figuring out how to make him happy or at least productive like the Ravens staff did.

And it only took them 18 weeks to do it.

He never even started a game until postseason.

But they got him to respond. Birk was on kfan this week and talked about how the coaches benched him and told them he wasn't playing until he got in better shape. He said Mac worked very hard at conditioning and is now the " thinnest" he has ever seen him. Then they told him he wasn't practicing hard enough and he wasn't going to play unless he practiced harder. When he got the call he was in shape and had put in his time in practice and now he played at a high level in the playoffs.

Had this staff been able to do that we wouldn't have needed to use that pick on his replacement.

tarkenton10
01-24-2013, 09:56 AM
Some people believe we first started rebuilding this team in 2011. We've been rebuilding this team since 2006 when we went a different direction on offense when Childress took over. When Frasier took over we kept the same WCO offense & the same Tampa 2/Zone defense so to say we started rebuilding after Frazier took over IMO doesn't hold weight.

Spielman has overseen every draft & player transaction since May of 2006 so to say we started rebuilding only after he was officially titled GM IMO is a stretch as well.

The fact that we recently let go or didn't resign several aging veteran players & had to replace them with younger talent doesn't mean we are rebuilding, it means we failed to address our aging players via the draft or failed to draft suitable replacements over the last 7 years.

Oversimplification don't ya think? While he has overseen the drafts there was a clustermuck as to who got to choose the player, remember the TOA. Spielman finally is the perosn who is in charge and NOW should be held accountable for the players that are drafted from here on out. 2006 - 2011 is all muddled and I say we push restart, some of the people responsible for our players are gone now.

Let's see what he can do from 2012 and on. So far so good, another draft like last yaer and we will be considered contenders. Very smart moves from last year were moving up to get Smith, great player, very instinctive, reminds me a little of Joey Browner. Great pick with Walsh, Robinson was a good pick but LaVonte David was sitting there, I think that would have been a better pick for us. I liked the Cole pick also, I really want to see him this preseason, I hope there is an open competition for the LBs positions.

Marrdro
01-24-2013, 12:26 PM
Oversimplification don't ya think? While he has overseen the drafts there was a clustermuck as to who got to choose the player, remember the TOA. Spielman finally is the perosn who is in charge and NOW should be held accountable for the players that are drafted from here on out. 2006 - 2011 is all muddled and I say we push restart, some of the people responsible for our players are gone now.

Let's see what he can do from 2012 and on. So far so good, another draft like last yaer and we will be considered contenders. Very smart moves from last year were moving up to get Smith, great player, very instinctive, reminds me a little of Joey Browner. Great pick with Walsh, Robinson was a good pick but LaVonte David was sitting there, I think that would have been a better pick for us. I liked the Cole pick also, I really want to see him this preseason, I hope there is an open competition for the LBs positions.

I just don't think the actual player that was picked with the Chiller here was that big of a contention. I think that Rick and the Chiller both agreed for the most part on what type of player the Chiller wanted.

The scouts were then tasked to go find those players, they were racked and stacked for the coaches and possibly that racking and stacking was adjusted just before the draft but I think the whole staff had an agreement on that effort.

The difference we saw last year might just be the slight difference that our new HC articulates in a better manner what type of player he wants to look at. It could also have been that the last draft had the right mix of guys that we needed and the ones they liked the best were still on the board. Perhaps during the Chiller years their number one guy in each round, or possibly even the number two guy as well was gone and they settled on the number 3 guy.

As you said, lets see what happens in 2012, but I'm not concerned. I think that Spielman (and both staffs) have done a good job at getting talent out of the draft. The other wild card to be considered is maybe the other staff just couldn't coach the talent enough to get them to play at the next level and Leslies staff did.

tarkenton10
01-24-2013, 12:46 PM
I just don't think the actual player that was picked with the Chiller here was that big of a contention. I think that Rick and the Chiller both agreed for the most part on what type of player the Chiller wanted.

The scouts were then tasked to go find those players, they were racked and stacked for the coaches and possibly that racking and stacking was adjusted just before the draft but I think the whole staff had an agreement on that effort.

The difference we saw last year might just be the slight difference that our new HC articulates in a better manner what type of player he wants to look at. It could also have been that the last draft had the right mix of guys that we needed and the ones they liked the best were still on the board. Perhaps during the Chiller years their number one guy in each round, or possibly even the number two guy as well was gone and they settled on the number 3 guy.

As you said, lets see what happens in 2012, but I'm not concerned. I think that Spielman (and both staffs) have done a good job at getting talent out of the draft. The other wild card to be considered is maybe the other staff just couldn't coach the talent enough to get them to play at the next level and Leslies staff did.

Good point, Maybe my friend just maybe!!

Marrdro
01-24-2013, 01:11 PM
Good point, Maybe my friend just maybe!!

I really really really want to see what happens with guys like:

Audie - will he take the next step.
Jasper - will he continue to evolve.
Fusco - will he finally stabilize the line.
Felton - Can you imagine him next year.
Smitty - Same thing as Felton.
Blanton - Might be our answer next to Smitty.
Kalil, Rudy, Dean, Reed, Burton, Sherel,........

A serious look at this team and the potential that is there really makes me excited to see how they all progress.

Truth is, the only players I didn't see get better this year were Webb, Scwartz and some backups that didn't get to play like Berger.

Guys like Chad, Sully, Rob, Everson, Ballard really started to come into their own. Heck, even ole Fred Evans played the best I've seen him play in years.

My only issue is that most fans can't stand to watch guys like Jamarca or Mystral go through the growing pains of learning on the field. Even those two had their moments this year and should be better next year with improved DT play and coaching.

tarkenton10
01-24-2013, 02:12 PM
I really really really want to see what happens with guys like:

Audie - will he take the next step.
Jasper - will he continue to evolve.
Fusco - will he finally stabilize the line.
Felton - Can you imagine him next year.
Smitty - Same thing as Felton.
Blanton - Might be our answer next to Smitty.
Kalil, Rudy, Dean, Reed, Burton, Sherel,........

A serious look at this team and the potential that is there really makes me excited to see how they all progress.

Truth is, the only players I didn't see get better this year were Webb, Scwartz and some backups that didn't get to play like Berger.

Guys like Chad, Sully, Rob, Everson, Ballard really started to come into their own. Heck, even ole Fred Evans played the best I've seen him play in years.

My only issue is that most fans can't stand to watch guys like Jamarca or Mystral go through the growing pains of learning on the field. Even those two had their moments this year and should be better next year with improved DT play and coaching.

good post my friend. I am one of those guys though with our safeties. To say they played bad would be an understatement, I would say that pos. is the worst on the team, even worse than the WR pos. We need to draft one or hopefully Blanton can come on, I heard good things about him before he was injured. I think we need to upgrade that pos. and both players should be gone IMO. Oh yeah, MY FRIEND!!

kevoncox
01-24-2013, 06:49 PM
good post my friend. I am one of those guys though with our safeties. To say they played bad would be an understatement, I would say that pos. is the worst on the team, even worse than the WR pos. We need to draft one or hopefully Blanton can come on, I heard good things about him before he was injured. I think we need to upgrade that pos. and both players should be gone IMO. Oh yeah, MY FRIEND!!

I don't remember any big plays given up this season by our Safties.
They all played well. Could they have made some more plays on the ball? Yes but, they did their jobs. Now corner....that's a different story.

midgensa
01-24-2013, 08:06 PM
Just wanted to point out that building the theory of building through the draft only is a myth. To be a successful team, you have to build with balance. It takes a combination of hits in FA and drafting to be able to field a competitive team. Don't believe me, look at the two teams that are fighting for the Superbowl.
B'more and 49ers. They drafted a solid OL but supplemented it with WRs from other teams.

49ers
Signed: Manningham, Moss, Ginn
Drafted: Crabtree and Davis

Look at their Defense
Drafted Willis, Bowman
Signed: Rodgers, Justin Smith

B'More
They could draft defensive talent for days but were always unable to draft a WR corps. What did they do? They went out and signed 2 of their top 3 WRs from other teams in Boldin, and Jones. There starting LT is our cast off as well as their starting Center. They also went out and signed the best FB to block for their RB.

My point in all of this is that more and more people are falling into this spell in believing that the draft is the only way to build a team, when in fact it takes balance and luck to create a winner. Our FO seems to be trying to draft a team and supplement it with scraps when it takes making a major investment in FA here or there.

Pretty sure that McKinnie doesn't start. Or see the field a whole hell of a lot ... so stretching it there a little.

Did they supplement through FA ... yes ... everyone does.

Did they build through the draft ... abso-fucking-lutely. You cannot look at the rosters and say anything different without looking silly.

SF drafted Aldon Smith, Patrick Willis, Navarro Bowman, Michael Crabtree, Vernon Davis, Colin Kaepernick, four-fifths of their STELLAR offensive line, Frank Gore, Dashon Goldson and Tarell Brown.

Baltimore drafted Joe Flacco, Ray Rice, Torrey Smith, Dennis Pitta, three fifths of their offensive line, Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Haloti Ngata, Ed Reed, Josh Bynes, Albert McClellan, Courtney Upshaw and Pernell McPhee.

That is pretty much all of the major contributors on BOTH teams except for Rogers and Justin Smith, who were two gambles that paid off for the 49ers because they both had underperformed with their previous teams.

You list Manningham, Moss and Ginn and Boldin and Jones as if they are huge deals, they simply are not. They are nice pieces, but they are normal free agent signings that could easily be replaced.

The LARGE majority of players that make these team's tick came from the draft. And that is why they are where they are. The DRAFT is the key to making it to the big dance.

Obviously a few little free agent signings here and there are important ... but to think "Building Through the Draft" is a myth and then try to use these two teams to explain that is a little silly.

kevoncox
01-24-2013, 09:58 PM
Pretty sure that McKinnie doesn't start. Or see the field a whole hell of a lot ... so stretching it there a little.

Actually he does... makes me believe that you are gonna say a lot of speculating if you don't even watch the teams.



Did they supplement through FA ... yes ... everyone does.

Did they build through the draft ... abso-fucking-lutely. You cannot look at the rosters and say anything different without looking silly.
What I said, since you didn't read was you need balance. Right now we don't have it. All of these teams jumped in and signed big name FAs

SF drafted Aldon Smith, Patrick Willis, Navarro Bowman, Michael Crabtree, Vernon Davis, Colin Kaepernick, four-fifths of their STELLAR offensive line, Frank Gore, Dashon Goldson and Tarell Brown. [/QUOTE]

Actually 3/5ths of their line. Other guy is a FA. You got it. However, I already showed that 10 out of 22 starters are from FAs. No matter how you slight it, that's almost half their starters.



Baltimore drafted Joe Flacco, Ray Rice, Torrey Smith, Dennis Pitta, three fifths of their offnsive line, Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Haloti Ngata, Ed Reed, Josh Bynes, Albert McClellan, Courtney Upshaw and Pernell McPhee.




That is pretty much all of the major contributors on BOTH teams except for Rogers and Justin Smith, who were two gambles that paid off for the 49ers because they both had underperformed with their previous teams.

You list Manningham, Moss and Ginn and Boldin and Jones as if they are huge deals, they simply are not. They are nice pieces, but they are normal free agent signings that could easily be replaced.
Smith didn't under perform on his team. Rodgers was great in coverage just couldn't catch the easy ones. Boldin is a nice piece? Oh ok. The guy only has more career catches than our WR combined combine.. You dismiss the contribution of Moss and Ginn to the team but mention some of the most asinine no name players to prove your point.



The LARGE majority of players that make these team's tick came from the draft. And that is why they are where they are. The DRAFT is the key to making it to the big dance.
Well teams tend not to make FA signings every season. The draft 7 players every season. Its more likely to have more drafted players on the team.



Obviously a few little free agent signings here and there are important ... but to think "Building Through the Draft" is a myth and then try to use these two teams to explain that is a little silly.

10 of 22 is a few? Oh ok. Where im from thats damn near half.

midgensa
01-24-2013, 11:27 PM
I have no idea where you are coming up with 10 of 22. I named 13 starters that they drafted (and yes, 4/5ths of their offensive line was drafted by them ... all but the center). So that leaves NINE at most. But hey in fact have 15 drafted starters. And acting like Justin Smith was not an underperformer in Cincinnati and then calling me out for "not watching teams" is ridiculous. He was a serious underperformer there as was Rogers here in the nation's capital. By the way ... Bryant McKinnie did start vs. Colts and the last couple of weeks ... but the were the FIRST STARTS THIS SEASON (and only because of injury. He is not a starter anymore) — Bryant McKinnie Earns High Grades In First Start (http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Bryant-McKinnie-Earns-High-Grades-In-First-Start/01519af2-0d5f-4854-8aef-ca6158485d0a)

So, the 49ers have 15 starters they drafted (49ers.com | Depth Chart (http://www.49ers.com/team/depth-chart.html)). The Ravens have 14 (Baltimore Ravens | Depth Chart (http://www.baltimoreravens.com/team/depth-chart-2012.html)). That is 29 of 44. And the point isn't that they have some free agents ... obviously everyone has those.

The point is THEY ARE CLEARLY BUILT THROUGH THE DRAFT. The most important players they have on BOTH sides of the ball are players they DRAFTED. Both starting QBs, RBs, TEs and top WRs were DRAFTED.

Ravens: 100% of their passing yards came from players THEY DRAFTED. 97% of their rushing yards came from players THEY DRAFTED. 63% of their receiving yards came from people THEY DRAFTED. 84% of their sacks came from players THEY DRAFTED. 54% of their defensive interceptions came from players THEY DRAFTED.

49ers: 100% of their passing yards came from players THEY DRAFTED. 97% of their rushing yards came from players THEY DRAFTED. 75% of their receiving yards came from players THEY DRAFTED. 75% of their sacks came from players THEY DRAFTED. 79% of their defensive interceptions came from players THEY DRAFTED.

I don't know how to spell it out for you anymore than that. These two teams built through the draft. They are completely the epitome of teams building through the draft. Sure, both teams have solid contributors that they got elsewhere (Birk, Boldin, Cary Williams, J. Smith, Rogers, Whitner, Moss) but to act like those guys are the reason these teams are here more than the players THEY DRAFTED that accounted for a large percentage of ALL production is ridiculous.

Does not matter if 60% of the players starting on both teams are free agents if ALL THE PRODUCTION comes from players the team drafted. In this case though 29 of 44 starters were drafted according to the team's own website depth charts (66%).

I am not going to say free agents are not important ... they clearly are ... but building through the draft certainly is not a myth as both these teams clearly did just that.

singersp
01-25-2013, 05:43 AM
Oversimplification don't ya think? While he has overseen the drafts there was a clustermuck as to who got to choose the player, remember the TOA. Spielman finally is the perosn who is in charge and NOW should be held accountable for the players that are drafted from here on out. 2006 - 2011 is all muddled and I say we push restart, some of the people responsible for our players are gone now.

Let's see what he can do from 2012 and on. So far so good, another draft like last yaer and we will be considered contenders. Very smart moves from last year were moving up to get Smith, great player, very instinctive, reminds me a little of Joey Browner. Great pick with Walsh, Robinson was a good pick but LaVonte David was sitting there, I think that would have been a better pick for us. I liked the Cole pick also, I really want to see him this preseason, I hope there is an open competition for the LBs positions.

No, it's not oversimplification at all. I'm not pointing the finger at Spielman, I'm stating that we've been rebuilding this team since 2006 when Childress got here (which Spielman was a part of in it's entirety except for the 2006) which contradicts what many here believe that we only 1st started rebuilding last year after Spielman was made GM.

singersp
01-25-2013, 05:47 AM
The difference we saw last year might just be the slight difference that our new HC articulates in a better manner what type of player he wants to look at. It could also have been that the last draft had the right mix of guys that we needed and the ones they liked the best were still on the board. Perhaps during the Chiller years their number one guy in each round, or possibly even the number two guy as well was gone and they settled on the number 3 guy.

Or part of the difference might be we were essentially picking 3rd in every round instead of the usual mid to late round picks.

singersp
01-25-2013, 05:51 AM
My only issue is that most fans can't stand to watch guys like Jamarca or Mystral go through the growing pains of learning on the field. Even those two had their moments this year and should be better next year with improved DT play and coaching.

Snicker! Yet you were all over Guion's young ass early in the season.

singersp
01-25-2013, 05:56 AM
Quote Originally Posted by midgensa View Post
Pretty sure that McKinnie doesn't start. Or see the field a whole hell of a lot ... so stretching it there a little.


Actually he does... makes me believe that you are gonna say a lot of speculating if you don't even watch the teams.

Actually, Midgensa is right & you're wrong. He doesn't start a lot or see the field a lot. In fact he never started a game the entire regular season & only got to start for the first time in the playoffs.

tarkenton10
01-25-2013, 10:04 AM
I don't remember any big plays given up this season by our Safties.
They all played well. Could they have made some more plays on the ball? Yes but, they did their jobs. Now corner....that's a different story.

I only watched a few games but I saw them taking bad angles on WRs and missing hits that could have jarred the ball loose. I saw horrible tackling by one those two in the last home game against GB. I don't remember any big plays over the top but that isn't the only requirement a S has on D.

MaxVike
01-25-2013, 10:17 AM
I really really really want to see what happens with guys like:

Audie - will he take the next step.
Jasper - will he continue to evolve.
Fusco - will he finally stabilize the line.
Felton - Can you imagine him next year.
Smitty - Same thing as Felton.
Blanton - Might be our answer next to Smitty.
Kalil, Rudy, Dean, Reed, Burton, Sherel,........

A serious look at this team and the potential that is there really makes me excited to see how they all progress.

Truth is, the only players I didn't see get better this year were Webb, Scwartz and some backups that didn't get to play like Berger.

Guys like Chad, Sully, Rob, Everson, Ballard really started to come into their own. Heck, even ole Fred Evans played the best I've seen him play in years.

My only issue is that most fans can't stand to watch guys like Jamarca or Mystral go through the growing pains of learning on the field. Even those two had their moments this year and should be better next year with improved DT play and coaching.

Hope you are right about Cole.

I hope I'm wrong about Jasper...I just am not feeling it and think we need to go a different direction - namely, someone with more instinct and speed. He's a thumper, but, that's all I see and not enough of it. Can he improve? Not sure.

I share optimism about Fusco. I like scrappy guards with an edge, an attitude...good base to work from.

Felton simply must be brought back. In fact, I think it makes sense to sign him to a contract which is co-terminous to AD's. Limit the guaranteed money as much as possible, but, keep him here. Kid is a beast.

Smith was one helluva ballsy move, but, I was happy on Draft Day and even happier now. I don't subscribe to the "we could have had this guy or that guy" stuff with this one. Solid pick, bold move, great Viking for a long time.

Blanton - we shall see. Looked competent when he was forced into action.

Kalil, Rudy, Dean, Reed, Burton, Sherel,........Let me add Robinson and Wright. Robinson made some mistakes, but, I think the sky is the limit. Wright can ball and I'm very confident he will improve dramatically. Which Burton? If it's Stephen, not seeing it at all. Love Dean on special teams...maybe the next Heath Farwell??? Sherel is a good punt returner, but, not sure how much upside there is regarding pass coverage.

The 2012 Draft was solid, as we've discussed before. The biggest concern I have with our youth movement is I just don't see downfield playmakers (Percy is a given...but, who knows how long he will be in purple), with the exception of Wright. Would have been nice to have seen him on the field more with Percy...still baffles me as to why it took so long to get him in the game. Everytime I watch Torrey Smith, Anquan Boldin, Michael Crabtree, Randall Cobb, Hakeem Nicks, Vincent Jackson, etc...go up and take the ball away from defenders, it reminds me that we simply do not have wide receivers capable of winning those battles down the field (Rudolph, I know, routinely does it). Flacco's post season success is directly attributable to (his words, not mine) "putting the ball where my guys can make a play when they are one on one." I am hopeful this gets addressed.

Defensive Tackle is another concern (I know you share this).

tarkenton10
01-25-2013, 10:32 AM
Hope you are right about Cole.

I hope I'm wrong about Jasper...I just am not feeling it and think we need to go a different direction - namely, someone with more instinct and speed. He's a thumper, but, that's all I see and not enough of it. Can he improve? Not sure.

I share optimism about Fusco. I like scrappy guards with an edge, an attitude...good base to work from.

Felton simply must be brought back. In fact, I think it makes sense to sign him to a contract which is co-terminous to AD's. Limit the guaranteed money as much as possible, but, keep him here. Kid is a beast.

Smith was one helluva ballsy move, but, I was happy on Draft Day and even happier now. I don't subscribe to the "we could have had this guy or that guy" stuff with this one. Solid pick, bold move, great Viking for a long time.

Blanton - we shall see. Looked competent when he was forced into action.

Kalil, Rudy, Dean, Reed, Burton, Sherel,........Let me add Robinson and Wright. Robinson made some mistakes, but, I think the sky is the limit. Wright can ball and I'm very confident he will improve dramatically. Which Burton? If it's Stephen, not seeing it at all. Love Dean on special teams...maybe the next Heath Farwell??? Sherel is a good punt returner, but, not sure how much upside there is regarding pass coverage.

The 2012 Draft was solid, as we've discussed before. The biggest concern I have with our youth movement is I just don't see downfield playmakers (Percy is a given...but, who knows how long he will be in purple), with the exception of Wright. Would have been nice to have seen him on the field more with Percy...still baffles me as to why it took so long to get him in the game. Everytime I watch Torrey Smith, Anquan Boldin, Michael Crabtree, Randall Cobb, Hakeem Nicks, Vincent Jackson, etc...go up and take the ball away from defenders, it reminds me that we simply do not have wide receivers capable of winning those battles down the field (Rudolph, I know, routinely does it). Flacco's post season success is directly attributable to (his words, not mine) "putting the ball where my guys can make a play when they are one on one." I am hopeful this gets addressed.

Defensive Tackle is another concern (I know you share this).

Rumor has it that he was slow in picking up the playbook. I don't kow if that is the case but even if he knew a few plays get him in there, he is talented and can make plays, that is more than I can say for our other WRs.

kevoncox
01-25-2013, 09:41 PM
I have no idea where you are coming up with 10 of 22. I named 13 starters that they drafted (and yes, 4/5ths of their offensive line was drafted by them ... all but the center). So that leaves NINE at most. But hey in fact have 15 drafted starters. And acting like Justin Smith was not an underperformer in Cincinnati and then calling me out for "not watching teams" is ridiculous. He was a serious underperformer there as was Rogers here in the nation's capital. By the way ... Bryant McKinnie did start vs. Colts and the last couple of weeks ... but the were the FIRST STARTS THIS SEASON (and only because of injury. He is not a starter anymore) — Bryant McKinnie Earns High Grades In First Start (http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Bryant-McKinnie-Earns-High-Grades-In-First-Start/01519af2-0d5f-4854-8aef-ca6158485d0a)

1. McKinnie...ok so is he a starter or not? He's starting... he's a starter.
2. Justin Smith:
55 tacks 8.5 sacks (2nd for rookies)
61 tacks 6.5 sacks ( led team in sacks)
60 tacks 5 sacks (moved to OLB had 5 sacks)
71 tacks 8 sacks ( led team in tacks and sacks)
81 tacks 5 sacks ( led team)
Last year in Cincy 78 tacks 2.0 sacks. ( led team in assisted tackles)
Franchised tagged.

He has averaged almost exactly what he did in cincy. The issue sis, he is playing on a good team now and is getting media shine time. Cincy in 2003 was a deadzone. The guy hasn't changed and that is why after his last season he was PURSUED by more than a handful of teams including the Vikings. He was the

Rogers...
I can show you the stats but they say the same damn thing.
His stats in San Fran are almost identical to his stats here.
Last year he had 6 but he played against TJack 2X, A struggling Bradford 2X, and the flop that is Kolb 2X. This year he went back to 1 int. He is what he is; a damn good cover guy that has difficulty catching the ball. Your problem is that you look soley at 1 stat....want to know if a guy is playing well at Cb... look at his PD. That is a true gauge, not ints. 24 passes defended in a season. I don't care how much you are targeted, that's outstanding pass breakups. He also always helped WAS in being a top 10 defense in an explosive division. The guy is consistently great but lacks the big name.



So, the 49ers have 15 starters they drafted (49ers.com | Depth Chart (http://www.49ers.com/team/depth-chart.html)). The Ravens have 14 (Baltimore Ravens | Depth Chart (http://www.baltimoreravens.com/team/depth-chart-2012.html)). That is 29 of 44. And the point isn't that they have some free agents ... obviously everyone has those.

Alex Boone was not drafted, he was a FA signing after the draft. Look it up.
I also included the 3rd WR in Ginn as they use him more than they do a FB. Their base formation Slot left out of the Single back formation.
Defensively I have already said that 1/3 DL 1/4 LBs and 2/4 of their Core are FA. Thats puts us at 14 out of 22 or 7:11 for the 49ers. I'm trying to get you to understand that teams tend to draft about 7 players every year...so yes the draft is important but dumpster diving in FA like we have been doing is a disaster. Good teams go out and sign Key players in FA. Hence, FA is as important as the draft. You can't build a good team without being excellent at both.




The point is THEY ARE CLEARLY BUILT THROUGH THE DRAFT. The most important players they have on BOTH sides of the ball are players they DRAFTED. Both starting QBs, RBs, TEs and top WRs were DRAFTED.

Ravens: 100% of their passing yards came from players THEY DRAFTED. 97% of their rushing yards came from players THEY DRAFTED. 63% of their receiving yards came from people THEY DRAFTED. 84% of their sacks came from players THEY DRAFTED. 54% of their defensive interceptions came from players THEY DRAFTED.

49ers: 100% of their passing yards came from players THEY DRAFTED. 97% of their rushing yards came from players THEY DRAFTED. 75% of their receiving yards came from players THEY DRAFTED. 75% of their sacks came from players THEY DRAFTED. 79% of their defensive interceptions came from players THEY DRAFTED.

Nice way to skew the numbers. 100% of their passing yards? Really? 97% of their rushing yards?

Baltimore, who led the team in receiving regular season yards? Who is leading in the playoffs. Who led in receptions? Who led in tds?
Who led in picks? Their two starting corners are FAs. I can go thru and point out the production on both sides like saying 100% of divisional round game tying catches were made made by Free Agents...but its a waste of time. Again, teams have more drafted players on their rosters because of the number of draft picks allotted each year. So you will see a larger percentage of any one stat belonging to drafted players. However, FAs are just as integral in moving the train.



I don't know how to spell it out for you anymore than that. These two teams built through the draft. They are completely the epitome of teams building through the draft. Sure, both teams have solid contributors that they got elsewhere (Birk, Boldin, Cary Williams, J. Smith, Rogers, Whitner, Moss) but to act like those guys are the reason these teams are here more than the players THEY DRAFTED that accounted for a large percentage of ALL production is ridiculous.

Solid contributors huh? You mean the starting Center and WR... of ok!
The DE that everyone says is the heart and soul of the 49ers? Those teams are in the superbowl because they are good teams that draft well and sign key players are huge areas of needs. Needed a lock down corner after Clements flooped, Rogers got signed. Needed a top flight pass rushing DE, smith got signed. Both teams had big issues but over came them by Signing key guys. You dismissal of Boldin as just a guy (JAG) is insulting. The guy is a premier WR, who will never get the fame he deserves. He recorded 1377 as a rookie. and trived despite Fitz getting to AZ. Runs all they routes and is FEARED by Dbs for his toughness and hands. He's better than anyone we have including Harvin.

Ranger
01-26-2013, 09:33 AM
1. McKinnie...ok so is he a starter or not? He's starting... he's a starter.
2. Justin Smith:
55 tacks 8.5 sacks (2nd for rookies)
61 tacks 6.5 sacks ( led team in sacks)
60 tacks 5 sacks (moved to OLB had 5 sacks)
71 tacks 8 sacks ( led team in tacks and sacks)
81 tacks 5 sacks ( led team)
Last year in Cincy 78 tacks 2.0 sacks. ( led team in assisted tackles)
Franchised tagged.

He has averaged almost exactly what he did in cincy. The issue sis, he is playing on a good team now and is getting media shine time. Cincy in 2003 was a deadzone. The guy hasn't changed and that is why after his last season he was PURSUED by more than a handful of teams including the Vikings. He was the

Rogers...
I can show you the stats but they say the same damn thing.
His stats in San Fran are almost identical to his stats here.
Last year he had 6 but he played against TJack 2X, A struggling Bradford 2X, and the flop that is Kolb 2X. This year he went back to 1 int. He is what he is; a damn good cover guy that has difficulty catching the ball. Your problem is that you look soley at 1 stat....want to know if a guy is playing well at Cb... look at his PD. That is a true gauge, not ints. 24 passes defended in a season. I don't care how much you are targeted, that's outstanding pass breakups. He also always helped WAS in being a top 10 defense in an explosive division. The guy is consistently great but lacks the big name.



Alex Boone was not drafted, he was a FA signing after the draft. Look it up.
I also included the 3rd WR in Ginn as they use him more than they do a FB. Their base formation Slot left out of the Single back formation.
Defensively I have already said that 1/3 DL 1/4 LBs and 2/4 of their Core are FA. Thats puts us at 14 out of 22 or 7:11 for the 49ers. I'm trying to get you to understand that teams tend to draft about 7 players every year...so yes the draft is important but dumpster diving in FA like we have been doing is a disaster. Good teams go out and sign Key players in FA. Hence, FA is as important as the draft. You can't build a good team without being excellent at both.




Nice way to skew the numbers. 100% of their passing yards? Really? 97% of their rushing yards?

Baltimore, who led the team in receiving regular season yards? Who is leading in the playoffs. Who led in receptions? Who led in tds?
Who led in picks? Their two starting corners are FAs. I can go thru and point out the production on both sides like saying 100% of divisional round game tying catches were made made by Free Agents...but its a waste of time. Again, teams have more drafted players on their rosters because of the number of draft picks allotted each year. So you will see a larger percentage of any one stat belonging to drafted players. However, FAs are just as integral in moving the train.



Solid contributors huh? You mean the starting Center and WR... of ok!
The DE that everyone says is the heart and soul of the 49ers? Those teams are in the superbowl because they are good teams that draft well and sign key players are huge areas of needs. Needed a lock down corner after Clements flooped, Rogers got signed. Needed a top flight pass rushing DE, smith got signed. Both teams had big issues but over came them by Signing key guys. You dismissal of Boldin as just a guy (JAG) is insulting. The guy is a premier WR, who will never get the fame he deserves. He recorded 1377 as a rookie. and trived despite Fitz getting to AZ. Runs all they routes and is FEARED by Dbs for his toughness and hands. He's better than anyone we have including Harvin.

You are completely delusional.

singersp
01-26-2013, 09:47 AM
1. McKinnie...ok so is he a starter or not? He's starting... he's a starter.

I guess that makes Webb a starter as well.

Ranger
01-26-2013, 10:35 AM
I guess that makes Webb a starter as well.

He had a down and down first year as the Viking starter. We're actually pretty blessed, following this logic, as we have a pair of starting quarterbacks, four or five starting receivers, four or so starting safeties...hell, our depth is great. Most teams can barely field a starter with a backup on the bench.

kevoncox
01-26-2013, 10:56 AM
You are completely delusional.
Numbers vs. Opinions
I'll stick to numbers!

kevoncox
01-26-2013, 11:04 AM
He had a down and down first year as the Viking starter. We're actually pretty blessed, following this logic, as we have a pair of starting quarterbacks, four or five starting receivers, four or so starting safeties...hell, our depth is great. Most teams can barely field a starter with a backup on the bench.

By the way, the reason Mckinnie is a starter is because Jah Reid is back from his injury but is still not starting!!! Like I said, if you don't watch the games....you wouldn't know.

midgensa
01-26-2013, 11:09 AM
1. McKinnie...ok so is he a starter or not? He's starting... he's a starter.
2. Justin Smith:
55 tacks 8.5 sacks (2nd for rookies)
61 tacks 6.5 sacks ( led team in sacks)
60 tacks 5 sacks (moved to OLB had 5 sacks)
71 tacks 8 sacks ( led team in tacks and sacks)
81 tacks 5 sacks ( led team)
Last year in Cincy 78 tacks 2.0 sacks. ( led team in assisted tackles)
Franchised tagged.

He has averaged almost exactly what he did in cincy. The issue sis, he is playing on a good team now and is getting media shine time. Cincy in 2003 was a deadzone. The guy hasn't changed and that is why after his last season he was PURSUED by more than a handful of teams including the Vikings. He was the

Rogers...
I can show you the stats but they say the same damn thing.
His stats in San Fran are almost identical to his stats here.
Last year he had 6 but he played against TJack 2X, A struggling Bradford 2X, and the flop that is Kolb 2X. This year he went back to 1 int. He is what he is; a damn good cover guy that has difficulty catching the ball. Your problem is that you look soley at 1 stat....want to know if a guy is playing well at Cb... look at his PD. That is a true gauge, not ints. 24 passes defended in a season. I don't care how much you are targeted, that's outstanding pass breakups. He also always helped WAS in being a top 10 defense in an explosive division. The guy is consistently great but lacks the big name.



Alex Boone was not drafted, he was a FA signing after the draft. Look it up.
I also included the 3rd WR in Ginn as they use him more than they do a FB. Their base formation Slot left out of the Single back formation.
Defensively I have already said that 1/3 DL 1/4 LBs and 2/4 of their Core are FA. Thats puts us at 14 out of 22 or 7:11 for the 49ers. I'm trying to get you to understand that teams tend to draft about 7 players every year...so yes the draft is important but dumpster diving in FA like we have been doing is a disaster. Good teams go out and sign Key players in FA. Hence, FA is as important as the draft. You can't build a good team without being excellent at both.




Nice way to skew the numbers. 100% of their passing yards? Really? 97% of their rushing yards?

Baltimore, who led the team in receiving regular season yards? Who is leading in the playoffs. Who led in receptions? Who led in tds?
Who led in picks? Their two starting corners are FAs. I can go thru and point out the production on both sides like saying 100% of divisional round game tying catches were made made by Free Agents...but its a waste of time. Again, teams have more drafted players on their rosters because of the number of draft picks allotted each year. So you will see a larger percentage of any one stat belonging to drafted players. However, FAs are just as integral in moving the train.



Solid contributors huh? You mean the starting Center and WR... of ok!
The DE that everyone says is the heart and soul of the 49ers? Those teams are in the superbowl because they are good teams that draft well and sign key players are huge areas of needs. Needed a lock down corner after Clements flooped, Rogers got signed. Needed a top flight pass rushing DE, smith got signed. Both teams had big issues but over came them by Signing key guys. You dismissal of Boldin as just a guy (JAG) is insulting. The guy is a premier WR, who will never get the fame he deserves. He recorded 1377 as a rookie. and trived despite Fitz getting to AZ. Runs all they routes and is FEARED by Dbs for his toughness and hands. He's better than anyone we have including Harvin.

How are numbers skewed? They are simply FACT. Those percentages are the FULL season ... nothing to skew there.

I have not argued at all that FAs are not important ... they clearly are. Trying to skew Justin Smith's numbers in Cincinnati as anything other than an average DE is ludicrous ... which is why we should just stop here. Bengals fans, media, front office, etc. were all upset by his lack of production there because they knew he was talented and he UNDERPERFORMED in the 4-3. He was not excessively sought after in free agency, because people knew he struggled in the 4-3 and nobody seemed ready to move him to the inside. Despite this, he was still one of the better DEs available that year so he got a good deal and most thought the 49ers overpaid for him. They clearly hit gold and found something special by moving him inside where he became an All-Pro.

Calling Rogers time in Washington great is absolutely unreal to me. He has always been a good tackler and an underwhelming cover guy. He AVERAGED 12.7 pass defenses a year, way to pull ONE season and then accuse me of skewing. He happen to get a bunch of Int's in SF which got him a nice contract. But even then, he did not get big CB money (only $7.2m per year) because teams do not think he is a big time corner, as evidenced by one pro bowl in 8 years in the league. And he certainly did not ALWAYS keep Washington in the top ten in the league as they were 31st TWICE in his time there. 31st. They averaged being 16th in the league while he was there.

Taking Boone and calling him a "free agent" when he never got a look from anywhere else is being opportunistic, but whatever, that is fine. Taking Ginn and calling him a "starter" when he has ONE receiving yard all year is fucking laughable, but all right. I mean, you called McKinnie a "starter" because of injuries, but taking Ginn and his two receptions pretty much makes you look like Corky. Still 27 of 44 starters from the draft ... and like I said ... that is giving you Ginn and his TWO catches and Boone as someone who came from somewhere else.

Calling the YEARLONG numbers being SKEWED is crazy. They are the numbers. That is fact. Even with Boldin's greatness of never getting 1,000 yards in Baltimore, the Ravens still rely more on DRAFTED players in the passing game than on Boldin. Calling Boldin better than Harvin is also laughable. He may have been at one point, he certainly is not now.

By the way ... keep calling Justin Smith a DE ... that makes you look good. Like someone who clearly watches the games.

I will say it for the umpteenth time ... you will continue to respond and look like a fool. It is OBVIOUS to anyone that free agency is important. It helps fill vital spots and it definitely played a role in these two teams getting to the Super Bowl. BUT ... saying these two teams did not build through the draft and that "building through the draft is a myth" is nothing short of completely laughable.

EDIT: By the way ... it is completely hilarious that you use stats to try and prove your point, but when I do the same thing, they are skewed. Convenient.

singersp
01-26-2013, 11:11 AM
He had a down and down first year as the Viking starter. We're actually pretty blessed, following this logic, as we have a pair of starting quarterbacks, four or five starting receivers, four or so starting safeties...hell, our depth is great. Most teams can barely field a starter with a backup on the bench.

Don't forget Marvin Mitchell at LB. He started 1 game for us so he should be counted as a starter too.

midgensa
01-26-2013, 11:19 AM
Numbers vs. Opinions
I'll stick to numbers!

Unless they're someone else's numbers. Then they are skewed and an opinion. You will stick to your numbers. Like how important Ted Ginn and his TWO catches for ONE yard are to the 49ers.

midgensa
01-26-2013, 11:20 AM
Don't forget Marvin Mitchell at LB. He started 1 game for us so he should be counted as a starter too.

I am pretty sure if he got one more start that puts him in the Ring of Honor.

singersp
01-26-2013, 11:38 AM
By the way, the reason Mckinnie is a starter is because Jah Reid is back from his injury but is still not starting!!! Like I said, if you don't watch the games....you wouldn't know.

Jah Reid was placed on IR 2 weeks ago, making him ineligible to play. That meant the Ravens had to do some shuffling. Oher was moved to RT which is his natural spot leaving McKinnie as the only LT on the depth chart to fill the void.

I thought you watched the games? If you did, you'd know Reid was on IR.

singersp
01-26-2013, 11:39 AM
I am pretty sure if he got one more start that puts him in the Ring of Honor.

Or the 8th Viking to make the Pro Bowl.

kevoncox
01-26-2013, 11:39 AM
How are numbers skewed? They are simply FACT. Those percentages are the FULL season ... nothing to skew there.

I have not argued at all that FAs are not important ... they clearly are. Trying to skew Justin Smith's numbers in Cincinnati as anything other than an average DE is ludicrous ... which is why we should just stop here. Bengals fans, media, front office, etc. were all upset by his lack of production there because they knew he was talented and he UNDERPERFORMED. He was not excessively sought after in free agency, but was one of the better DEs available that year so he got a good deal and most thought the 49ers overpaid for him. They clearly hit gold and found something special by moving him inside where he became an All-Pro.

Calling Rogers time in Washington great is absolutely unreal to me. He has always been a good tackler and an underwhelming cover guy. He AVERAGED 12.7 pass defenses a year, way to pull ONE season and then accuse me of skewing. He happen to get a bunch of Int's in SF which got him a nice contract. But even then, he did not get big CB money (only $7.2m per year) because teams do not think he is a big time corner, as evidenced by one pro bowl in 8 years in the league. And he certainly did not ALWAYS keep Washington in the top ten in the league as they were 31st TWICE in his time there. 31st. They averaged being 16th in the league while he was there.

Taking Boone and calling him a "free agent" when he never got a look from anywhere else is being opportunistic, but whatever, that is fine. Taking Ginn and calling him a "starter" when he has ONE receiving yard all year is fucking laughable, but all right. I mean, you called McKinnie a "starter" because of injuries, but taking Ginn and his two receptions pretty much makes you look like Corky. Still 27 of 44 starters from the draft ... and like I said ... that is giving you Ginn and his TWO catches and Boone as someone who came from somewhere else.

Calling the YEARLONG numbers being SKEWED is crazy. They are the numbers. That is fact. Even with Boldin's greatness of never getting 1,000 yards in Baltimore, the Ravens still rely more on DRAFTED players in the passing game than on Boldin. Calling Boldin better than Harvin is also laughable. He may have been at one point, he certainly is not now.

By the way ... keep calling Justin Smith a DE ... that makes you look good. Like someone who clearly watches the games.

I will say it for the umpteenth time ... you will continue to respond and look like a fool. It is OBVIOUS to anyone that free agency is important. It helps fill vital spots and it definitely played a role in these two teams getting to the Super Bowl. BUT ... saying these two teams did not build through the draft and that "building through the draft is a myth" is nothing short of completely laughable.

EDIT: By the way ... it is completely hilarious that you use stats to try and prove your point, but when I do the same thing, they are skewed. Convenient.

Smith is a DE...they move him around and he plays all the positions, as I pointed out he even spent some time at LB but his natural position is DE. so please try again.

The year Washington was 31st was a move to the Damn 3-4. I am sorry that I chose to ignore that season. When transitioning to from 1 defense to the other.... clearly there is some flux.

The thing both of these players had in the league was buzz about their play. However, they clearly lacked the name.

You can argue all you want but as I have shown you...
Smith on the 49ers, is doing the same exact thing that he did in Cincy.
The same exact stats!!!! So isn't he under performing now? LOCKING AT SACKS AS THE ONLY MEASURE OF A DE SHOWS, ME THAT I SHOULDN'T EVEN BE WASTING MY TIME. What Smith is doing in the San Fran that he didn't do in Cincy is that his hurries and pressure is allowing his talented teammates to look even better. All the double teams and broken pockets( on crashes and at DT) allows the OLBs to clean up sacks and big hits. When they were a 4-3 he looked even better.

Can you find a CB on the Vikings that has averaged 12 passes defensed in their career.?
Winfield has only been over 12 once. Cook has 5 as a high. Griffen averages 8 for a career.
By the way the great Revis is averaging 16 for his career. He is no Revis (clearly) but the guy can cover and disrupt plays. He drops easy ints which people think is the only measure of a CB. LOOKING AT INTS AS THE ONLY MEASURE OF A CB, SHOWS ME THAT I SHOULDN'T EVEN BE WASTING MY TIME.

As for skewing the numbers, I explained already that I can provide you numbers that show any player to be important (i.e. 100% of Divisional game saving throws all went to FAs) What you can't argue is who lead that team in targets, catches, yards and Tds. You can't argue who lead the team in ints and pass defenses. You dismiss players that the teams see as intergral
(49ers Brooks who signed a 6-year, $44.5 million to stay in San Fran) to it's success.
Honestly, I have said everything I needed to say. Its a case of you not reading the original statement and arguing something completely different. I'm done.

singersp
01-26-2013, 12:07 PM
Can you find a CB on the Vikings that has averaged 12 passes defensed in their career.?

Winfield had 12 PD just this past season alone, 12 in 2003, 14 in 2006, 14 in & 116 in his career.

That's an average of 116 Passes Defensed per career. :)

Purple Floyd
01-26-2013, 09:23 PM
Winfield had 12 PD just this past season alone, 12 in 2003, 14 in 2006, 14 in & 116 in his career.

That's an average of 116 Passes Defensed per career. :)

In his case PD means passively defensed.:rofl:

Ranger
01-27-2013, 01:45 AM
By the way, the reason Mckinnie is a starter is because Jah Reid is back from his injury but is still not starting!!! Like I said, if you don't watch the games....you wouldn't know.

I live in NOVA. I catch more than my fair share of 'skins and Ravens games.

Ranger
01-27-2013, 01:54 AM
Smith is a DE...they move him around and he plays all the positions, as I pointed out he even spent some time at LB but his natural position is DE. so please try again.

The year Washington was 31st was a move to the Damn 3-4. I am sorry that I chose to ignore that season. When transitioning to from 1 defense to the other.... clearly there is some flux.

The thing both of these players had in the league was buzz about their play. However, they clearly lacked the name.

You can argue all you want but as I have shown you...
Smith on the 49ers, is doing the same exact thing that he did in Cincy.
The same exact stats!!!! So isn't he under performing now? LOCKING AT SACKS AS THE ONLY MEASURE OF A DE SHOWS, ME THAT I SHOULDN'T EVEN BE WASTING MY TIME. What Smith is doing in the San Fran that he didn't do in Cincy is that his hurries and pressure is allowing his talented teammates to look even better. All the double teams and broken pockets( on crashes and at DT) allows the OLBs to clean up sacks and big hits. When they were a 4-3 he looked even better.

Can you find a CB on the Vikings that has averaged 12 passes defensed in their career.?
Winfield has only been over 12 once. Cook has 5 as a high. Griffen averages 8 for a career.
By the way the great Revis is averaging 16 for his career. He is no Revis (clearly) but the guy can cover and disrupt plays. He drops easy ints which people think is the only measure of a CB. LOOKING AT INTS AS THE ONLY MEASURE OF A CB, SHOWS ME THAT I SHOULDN'T EVEN BE WASTING MY TIME.

As for skewing the numbers, I explained already that I can provide you numbers that show any player to be important (i.e. 100% of Divisional game saving throws all went to FAs) What you can't argue is who lead that team in targets, catches, yards and Tds. You can't argue who lead the team in ints and pass defenses. You dismiss players that the teams see as intergral
(49ers Brooks who signed a 6-year, $44.5 million to stay in San Fran) to it's success.
Honestly, I have said everything I needed to say. Its a case of you not reading the original statement and arguing something completely different. I'm done.

'Ole boy was a solid #2 corner in Washington. Couldn't get a pick if his life depended upon it. Nobody cried when he left, to be honest.

Smith was an above average DE with the Bengals in a 4-3 scheme. Not optimal, as he didn't give much pass rush. His value up and down the line in SF is his ability to eat up blocks and create plays for the linebackers. He's an alright defensive end in a 4-3, he's fantastic in a 3-4. Please don't try to say that he was this much of a force when he played for the Bengals, because even Cincy wouldn't have let a player of that impact leave.

Rogers is playing much better now than he was in Washington.

Boldin gets no separation. Everything he catches is contested, and he has to use his solid hands and aggressive nature to make the catch, and it has to be on the receiving end of a very well thrown ball by Flacco. NFL on Sirius had a huge discussion about it with some guys I tend to have a lot of respect for, and they mentioned this as well. At this stage in his career, Boldin is a good #2 receiver, or second option...but he's not a dominate player anymore.

Marrdro
01-27-2013, 12:26 PM
Snicker! Yet you were all over Guion's young ass early in the season.
What do you mean all over. Hacking or Propping? Truth be told, I absolutely don't know what to think of Guion, but that is because the coaching staff has chosen to use him out of his natural position.

(Marrdro waits for Singer to miss the difference between the 2 DT positions).

Marrdro
01-27-2013, 12:30 PM
Or part of the difference might be we were essentially picking 3rd in every round instead of the usual mid to late round picks.
True, but you could still pick wrong after the first round.

Besides, I think he's done a good job since he arrived so that makes my opinion a bit different when it comes to when he has picked vs what your saying (this year only).

I challenge you to go see how many of his picks make the team vs how man don't and then compare them to 3 or 4 other teams like I did for Doc Jargo a few years back. Ole Ricky boy was right up there.

Again, its a fallacy to believe that a GM is going to hit on every pick. Just doesn't happen. But Rick and the scouts have been pretty good at it based on league average and that doesn't even bring into account the couple of Undrafted guys he's scored on.

Marrdro
01-27-2013, 12:34 PM
good post my friend. I am one of those guys though with our safeties. To say they played bad would be an understatement, I would say that pos. is the worst on the team, even worse than the WR pos. We need to draft one or hopefully Blanton can come on, I heard good things about him before he was injured. I think we need to upgrade that pos. and both players should be gone IMO. Oh yeah, MY FRIEND!!
Like our CB play, I think most fans on here misunderstand the S's role in this scheme. My observations that they played better this year (which they did) is based on that, execution in the scheme.

Additionally, many seemed to have forgot plays from Jamarca and Mystral that were game saving. Hell, Jamarca had back to back plays in one game (pass defense on the sideline/pass defense in the endzone). Mystral had some nice plays up at the line and a couple behind the line. I need to go through all the box scores to name the games, but when/if I do, I bet I find alot more between the two of them.

Anyone who wants to check to prove me wrong, look at the game Smitty went out as well as the time he was suspended.

Marrdro
01-27-2013, 12:37 PM
I don't remember any big plays given up this season by our Safties.
They all played well. Could they have made some more plays on the ball? Yes but, they did their jobs. Now corner....that's a different story.
It wasn't like they had them every game, but both Jamarca and Mystral had some key plays in games late. As I just pointed out, can't remember the games but it was in and around when Smitty went down/out.

singersp
01-28-2013, 07:36 AM
True, but you could still pick wrong after the first round.

Besides, I think he's done a good job since he arrived so that makes my opinion a bit different when it comes to when he has picked vs what your saying (this year only).

I challenge you to go see how many of his picks make the team vs how man don't and then compare them to 3 or 4 other teams like I did for Doc Jargo a few years back. Ole Ricky boy was right up there.

Again, its a fallacy to believe that a GM is going to hit on every pick. Just doesn't happen. But Rick and the scouts have been pretty good at it based on league average and that doesn't even bring into account the couple of Undrafted guys he's scored on.

You could pick wrong with the first round too. No one expects any team to hit on every pick.

Still your odds of getting better players are higher if you're picking 3, 35, 67, 99..etc than they are if you're picking 25, 57, 89, 121..etc.

Of the players who aren't under rookie contacts, there are 4 players remaining on our team from the 2007-2008 draft since Spielman came on board.

AD, who fell to us at #7 due to injury questions. Still an early pick.
Robison, taken at #3 in the 4th round.

Guion, taken 17th in the 5th
Sullivan taken 21st in the 6th

Which undrafted guys are you saying he scored on?

Purple Floyd
01-28-2013, 08:03 AM
True, but you could still pick wrong after the first round.

Besides, I think he's done a good job since he arrived so that makes my opinion a bit different when it comes to when he has picked vs what your saying (this year only).

I challenge you to go see how many of his picks make the team vs how man don't and then compare them to 3 or 4 other teams like I did for Doc Jargo a few years back. Ole Ricky boy was right up there.

Again, its a fallacy to believe that a GM is going to hit on every pick. Just doesn't happen. But Rick and the scouts have been pretty good at it based on league average and that doesn't even bring into account the couple of Undrafted guys he's scored on.

You could pick wrong with the first round too. No one expects any team to hit on every pick.

Still your odds of getting better players are higher if you're picking 3, 35, 67, 99..etc than they are if you're picking 25, 57, 89, 121..etc.

Of the players who aren't under rookie contacts, there are 4 players remaining on our team from the 2007-2008 draft since Spielman came on board.

AD, who fell to us at #7 due to injury questions. Still an early pick.
Robison, taken at #3 in the 4th round.

Guion, taken 17th in the 5th
Sullivan taken 21st in the 6th

Which undrafted guys are you saying he scored on?

I believe he counts guys who were drafted by him but went to other teams so he is counting Rice and Jackson in his ratings.

singersp
01-28-2013, 08:34 AM
I believe he counts guys who were drafted by him but went to other teams so he is counting Rice and Jackson in his ratings.

He is.

Marrdro is must just be one of those cats who believes the GM's sole job is to draft players and doesn't take into consideration that a big part of the GM's job is to retain those good players he drafts for our team.

tastywaves
01-28-2013, 10:11 AM
Like our CB play, I think most fans on here misunderstand the S's role in this scheme. My observations that they played better this year (which they did) is based on that, execution in the scheme.

Additionally, many seemed to have forgot plays from Jamarca and Mystral that were game saving. Hell, Jamarca had back to back plays in one game (pass defense on the sideline/pass defense in the endzone). Mystral had some nice plays up at the line and a couple behind the line. I need to go through all the box scores to name the games, but when/if I do, I bet I find alot more between the two of them.

Anyone who wants to check to prove me wrong, look at the game Smitty went out as well as the time he was suspended.

I thought Sanford improved quite a bit this year and playing next to Smith this position went from a huge liability last year to respectable this year.

Raymond on the other hand took about 4 steps backwards. When he did get a chance to play he looked completely lost. I think this guy will be fighting hard to make the roster next year. Never saw enough of Blanton to form an opinion on the guy.

On the CB side, I think we will continue to look for players this year to add depth and competition. Cook hasn't shown he can stay on the field consistently, so you need a good backup for him. AW is probably into his last year. Robinson showed some promise last year and may step into a solid starter. Jefferson, despite the heavy criticism of many on this site, is a very solid depth CB. He lacks aggression in run support and needs to learn how to make a play on the ball, but I think he has the best cover skills on our team. That's why you see the guy continuing to get all the reps. Sherels was a huge liability in coverage, only on the team because of his return abilities. Burton is just a body, not even sure what type of body he has, can't remember the last time I've seen it.

Last year they brought in two senior FA corner's that they had no doubt expected to step into one of the starter roles as they brought Robinson along. When that plan fell to shit, Robinson was promoted and they scrambled to find another guy on the market (Jefferson).

tastywaves
01-28-2013, 10:13 AM
You could pick wrong with the first round too. No one expects any team to hit on every pick.

Still your odds of getting better players are higher if you're picking 3, 35, 67, 99..etc than they are if you're picking 25, 57, 89, 121..etc.

Of the players who aren't under rookie contacts, there are 4 players remaining on our team from the 2007-2008 draft since Spielman came on board.

AD, who fell to us at #7 due to injury questions. Still an early pick.
Robison, taken at #3 in the 4th round.

Guion, taken 17th in the 5th
Sullivan taken 21st in the 6th

Which undrafted guys are you saying he scored on?

Picking early vs late only translates to one extra quality pick.

jargomcfargo
01-28-2013, 12:16 PM
I thought Sanford improved quite a bit this year and playing next to Smith this position went from a huge liability last year to respectable this year.

Raymond on the other hand took about 4 steps backwards. When he did get a chance to play he looked completely lost. I think this guy will be fighting hard to make the roster next year. Never saw enough of Blanton to form an opinion on the guy.

On the CB side, I think we will continue to look for players this year to add depth and competition. Cook hasn't shown he can stay on the field consistently, so you need a good backup for him. AW is probably into his last year. Robinson showed some promise last year and may step into a solid starter. Jefferson, despite the heavy criticism of many on this site, is a very solid depth CB. He lacks aggression in run support and needs to learn how to make a play on the ball, but I think he has the best cover skills on our team. That's why you see the guy continuing to get all the reps. Sherels was a huge liability in coverage, only on the team because of his return abilities. Burton is just a body, not even sure what type of body he has, can't remember the last time I've seen it.

Last year they brought in two senior FA corner's that they had no doubt expected to step into one of the starter roles as they brought Robinson along. When that plan fell to shit, Robinson was promoted and they scrambled to find another guy on the market (Jefferson).
I agree with every bit of this. In addition, Cook is fairly solid when he is on the field but doesn't appear to have the potential to be great.
Robinson has speed and potential , rarely gets beat deep, but doesn't contest many passes. I expect him to improve, however.
I would like to see another corner drafted this year and Raymond replaced.

singersp
01-29-2013, 06:06 AM
Picking early vs late only translates to one extra quality pick.

What you get is better quality at every round until the talent level is gone.

Yep, you can like your insinuating, get a quality player at #1 & at #32, but I'd rather have & would have better odds getting a higher quality player picking first rather than last. Likewise, your odds of getting a higher quality player picking 33rd are better than at 64th.

You can look at it as an extra quality pick if you want to twist it that way, but then not only should you hopefully get the better cream of the crop, you get that extra quality player as well & your odds of getting more starters increases.

tastywaves
01-29-2013, 10:48 AM
What you get is better quality at every round until the talent level is gone.

Yep, you can like your insinuating, get a quality player at #1 & at #32, but I'd rather have & would have better odds getting a higher quality player picking first rather than last. Likewise, your odds of getting a higher quality player picking 33rd are better than at 64th.

You can look at it as an extra quality pick if you want to twist it that way, but then not only should you hopefully get the better cream of the crop, you get that extra quality player as well & your odds of getting more starters increases.

Your missing out on a high first round pick, that's it. Everything else just slides.

Now, obviously, missing that early first round pick is pretty huge, but don't play it like we lose out on every round. It's just that first pick.

If it helps, think of the #23 pick as our early 2nd rounder and our late 2nd rounder is our early 3rd rounder,.......

singersp
01-30-2013, 06:41 AM
Your missing out on a high first round pick, that's it. Everything else just slides.

Now, obviously, missing that early first round pick is pretty huge, but don't play it like we lose out on every round. It's just that first pick.

If it helps, think of the #23 pick as our early 2nd rounder and our late 2nd rounder is our early 3rd rounder,.......

I understood what you're saying, but missing that first high pick is monumental. Don't play it like it's only 1 mere pick difference.

With that said, how good would our next 5 drafts be if we never had a 1st round pick compared to having 5 drafts with a high first round pick?

Pretty sure it's more probable to get more quality players with the latter, which is the original point of our discussion.

Drafting Kalil, Smith & Robinson, looks much better than drafting Smith, Robinson & Wright.

Purple Floyd
01-30-2013, 07:54 AM
The high draft picks are nice but you have to suck to get them.

Cleveland picks high every year for the most part and still suck every year.

You need to find your QB however it takes and then just draft talent around them wherever your pick lands.

kevoncox
02-03-2013, 11:07 PM
Boldin = 6 catches/ 100 yards/ 1 td = Washed up
Jones Td/ Return TD - insignificant signing.

singersp
02-04-2013, 04:44 AM
Boldin = 6 catches/ 100 yards/ 1 td = Washed up


But, but Spielman, Childress & co. got better value keeping Berrian, resigning Lewis & inking Freddie Brown, Logan Payne & Marko Mitchell instead.

Purple Floyd
02-04-2013, 07:42 AM
Boldin = 6 catches/ 100 yards/ 1 td = Washed up
Jones Td/ Return TD - insignificant signing.

Birk + McKinney=2 FA OL that got them a SB win.

midgensa
02-04-2013, 04:19 PM
Boldin = 6 catches/ 100 yards/ 1 td = Washed up
Jones Td/ Return TD - insignificant signing.

Nobody said that Boldin was washed up. Nobody said that Jones was not a good signing.

The simply fact is you stated building through the draft is a myth and used these teams as examples. Both of these teams CLEARLY built through the draft and added other pieces.

Building through the draft is a myth might or might not be an accurate statement. But stating that these teams did not build through the draft is not an opinion. It is flat out wrong. They both built through the draft and did so in excellent fashion.

Marrdro
02-06-2013, 11:18 AM
I thought Sanford improved quite a bit this year and playing next to Smith this position went from a huge liability last year to respectable this year.

Raymond on the other hand took about 4 steps backwards. When he did get a chance to play he looked completely lost. I think this guy will be fighting hard to make the roster next year. Never saw enough of Blanton to form an opinion on the guy.

On the CB side, I think we will continue to look for players this year to add depth and competition. Cook hasn't shown he can stay on the field consistently, so you need a good backup for him. AW is probably into his last year. Robinson showed some promise last year and may step into a solid starter. Jefferson, despite the heavy criticism of many on this site, is a very solid depth CB. He lacks aggression in run support and needs to learn how to make a play on the ball, but I think he has the best cover skills on our team. That's why you see the guy continuing to get all the reps. Sherels was a huge liability in coverage, only on the team because of his return abilities. Burton is just a body, not even sure what type of body he has, can't remember the last time I've seen it.

Last year they brought in two senior FA corner's that they had no doubt expected to step into one of the starter roles as they brought Robinson along. When that plan fell to shit, Robinson was promoted and they scrambled to find another guy on the market (Jefferson).

Interesting tidbit I found on Jamarca that I can't validate because the cat referenced something he can access because of his subscription.


Jamarca Sanford is less obvious, but he is definitely a starting quality safety who has gone underappreciated by the fanbase for his play this year, largely due to his terrible play in 2011. His 2012 campaign more than made up for it, however, and his ability to force fumbles has helped the Vikings tremendously (he led the team in forced fumbles with four).
He is a bit above average in coverage, but it's his tackling that makes him such a valuable safety. He ranked third among safeties (https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/signature.php?tab=signature&season=2012&stype=r&pos=sas&teamid=-1&filter=50) in run stop percentage by Pro Football Focus (subscription), a measure that determines how many of a player's tackles were losses for the offense. He also was better than most starting safeties in tackling efficiency—a metric for figuring out how often a player misses tackles.



Mapping out the Blueprint for a Vikings Super Bowl Run in 2013- 2014 | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1508996-mapping-out-the-blueprint-for-a-vikings-super-bowl-run-in-2013-2014/page/4)

Question is, why are so many fans (especially on this site) so adamant that a cat like Sanford sucks when he really grades out pretty damn high? Is it because they just have it in for the guy or is it something else.

Again, I really believe that us fans really don't understand the intricacies of play at a few positions (DB, LB and OL).

LB for instance. Most on here automatically say that Jasper sucks in coverage, but are they taking into account his pre-snap alignment? Is he up at the line in what looks like a blitz mode and because of that, is automatically 3 steps behind were he should be if he is supposed to drop into coverage?

I watched Jasper close this year. If he was allowed to line up in his normal location he was fine in coverage.

Marrdro
02-06-2013, 11:23 AM
He is.

Marrdro is must just be one of those cats who believes the GM's sole job is to draft players and doesn't take into consideration that a big part of the GM's job is to retain those good players he drafts for our team.
What kindof drivel are you spewing forth now. Are you going to sit here and try to tell me you understand the draft or FA process better than I?

Aren't you one of the cats who tried to convince me that the HC sat at the table in NY and sent the pick in? LOL

Marrdro
02-06-2013, 11:49 AM
You could pick wrong with the first round too. No one expects any team to hit on every pick.

Still your odds of getting better players are higher if you're picking 3, 35, 67, 99..etc than they are if you're picking 25, 57, 89, 121..etc.

Of the players who aren't under rookie contacts, there are 4 players remaining on our team from the 2007-2008 draft since Spielman came on board.

AD, who fell to us at #7 due to injury questions. Still an early pick.
Robison, taken at #3 in the 4th round.

Guion, taken 17th in the 5th
Sullivan taken 21st in the 6th

Which undrafted guys are you saying he scored on?

Your odds of getting players no matter were you picked is based on how well you scouted the players and if they meet the need of the coaches you have to coach them.

Nothing more, nothing less.

You could have the first pick in the draft and if you drafted the highest rated QB the kid would still fail if he didn't fit your scheme. Think about it, it isn't like you have a staff full of coaches that are skilled at the art of running the Walsh variant of the West Coast Offense and then expect them to teach something other than that.

Again, figure out what scheme your coaches intend to run. Find out were they have holes and then send your scouts out to find those types of players regardless of were they are projected. If you do that your odds of being successful with your picks will be pretty high.

kevoncox
02-06-2013, 11:50 AM
Interesting tidbit I found on Jamarca that I can't validate because the cat referenced something he can access because of his subscription.



Mapping out the Blueprint for a Vikings Super Bowl Run in 2013- 2014 | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1508996-mapping-out-the-blueprint-for-a-vikings-super-bowl-run-in-2013-2014/page/4)

Question is, why are so many fans (especially on this site) so adamant that a cat like Sanford sucks when he really grades out pretty damn high? Is it because they just have it in for the guy or is it something else.

Again, I really believe that us fans really don't understand the intricacies of play at a few positions (DB, LB and OL).

LB for instance. Most on here automatically say that Jasper sucks in coverage, but are they taking into account his pre-snap alignment? Is he up at the line in what looks like a blitz mode and because of that, is automatically 3 steps behind were he should be if he is supposed to drop into coverage?

I watched Jasper close this year. If he was allowed to line up in his normal location he was fine in coverage.

Sanford made major leaps this year and I think he was very dissapointed that he was not a starter full time. When we were playing our best ball, we lost Raymond and we didn't miss a beat. The fact of the matter is, both of those guys appear to be starter quality safeties now. I am not saying that they are stars but they are both decent safeties and no longer liabilities. I can't remember 1 big play last season that appeared to be the safety fault. Our pass defense as a whole was pretty damn good early in games and for some reason fell apart later in games. However, they looked pretty good. This coming from a guy that continued to harp about their questionable angles during the 2011 season. They raised their play and shut me up.

Not sure about the Brinkley hate. He looked solid in coverage and good in run support. Another starter in this league. He's not an amazing MLB like a Willis but they guy gets the job done. When Henderson got hurt, he took over Nickle play and remained there for a while even when Henderson came back. If that is not a testament to how well he handled the job, I don't know what is.

Marrdro
02-06-2013, 11:51 AM
I believe he counts guys who were drafted by him but went to other teams so he is counting Rice and Jackson in his ratings.
I do count players that were drafted by us that went on to other teams.

I did a study once on teams that signed players coming off of their first contracts from other teams. In almost every instance that team actively scouted the player they signed from the drafting team.

kevoncox
02-06-2013, 11:52 AM
Your odds of getting players no matter were you picked is based on how well you scouted the players and if they meet the need of the coaches you have to coach them.

Nothing more, nothing less.

You could have the first pick in the draft and if you drafted the highest rated QB the kid would still fail if he didn't fit your scheme. Think about it, it isn't like you have a staff full of coaches that are skilled at the art of running the Walsh variant of the West Coast Offense and then expect them to teach something other than that.

Again, figure out what scheme your coaches intend to run. Find out were they have holes and then send your scouts out to find those types of players regardless of were they are projected. If you do that your odds of being successful with your picks will be pretty high.

Marr.. you're being simplistic. Kids at the top of the draft tend to have scheme flexibility and can fit in multiple schemes. A lot can be said for talent being higher at the front of the draft. There is a reason that the first round yeilds starters with pro bowl ability. To find a pro bowler in the 6th round, you struck gold. To find a pro bowler in the first round, you did your job.

Marrdro
02-06-2013, 12:10 PM
Which undrafted guys are you saying he scored on?

Start with Sherels....I like the Summers pickup but time will tell on him. Same thing goes with Larry Dean. Sendejo is another one that I like on ST's.

Marrdro
02-06-2013, 12:23 PM
Marr.. you're being simplistic. Kids at the top of the draft tend to have scheme flexibility and can fit in multiple schemes. A lot can be said for talent being higher at the front of the draft. There is a reason that the first round yeilds starters with pro bowl ability. To find a pro bowler in the 6th round, you struck gold. To find a pro bowler in the first round, you did your job.
True, but we aren't going to pick a Austin over a Patterson if they are both sitting there. We will take Patterson because he fits our scheme as well as a need were as we have two guys (Percy/Wright) who can do what Austin can.

Austin might wind up being the Probowler, but Patterson would help you get more wins with less accolades.

jargomcfargo
02-06-2013, 02:13 PM
True, but we aren't going to pick a Austin over a Patterson if they are both sitting there. We will take Patterson because he fits our scheme as well as a need were as we have two guys (Percy/Wright) who can do what Austin can.

Austin might wind up being the Probowler, but Patterson would help you get more wins with less accolades.

So a team that drafts a player that fits their scheme, over a player with more talent, is going to be better than a team that drafts a player with the most talent, and tailors their scheme to utilize that talent.

Does not seem logical !

tarkenton10
02-06-2013, 02:51 PM
True, but we aren't going to pick a Austin over a Patterson if they are both sitting there. We will take Patterson because he fits our scheme as well as a need were as we have two guys (Percy/Wright) who can do what Austin can.

Austin might wind up being the Probowler, but Patterson would help you get more wins with less accolades.

Patterson has way more upside than Austin. Not that he will reach it but the potential is there.

Marrdro
02-06-2013, 02:53 PM
Patterson has way more upside than Austin. Not that he will reach it but the potential is there.

OK, I picked a bad example....Way to hang me out there old friend.....:)

Point still is, they could pass on a more talented guy if he doesn't fit what we need.

Marrdro
02-06-2013, 02:55 PM
So a team that drafts a player that fits their scheme, over a player with more talent, is going to be better than a team that drafts a player with the most talent, and tailors their scheme to utilize that talent.

Does not seem logical !
Happens all the time. If you had a very talented kid that played OLB in a 3-4 scheme would you take him if you ran a 4-3 scheme knowing that the kid would be to big/slow to play in your scheme.?

tarkenton10
02-06-2013, 02:58 PM
OK, I picked a bad example....Way to hang me out there old friend.....:)

Point still is, they could pass on a more talented guy if he doesn't fit what we need.

Agreed, if you are looking at scheme some amy pass up quality guys. Where do you put Ogletree in a 3-4. I think he is a great fit in a 4-3 as a WILL Backer but I am not sure how he would fit in a 3-4. Granted I am not a defensive guru but that is my opinion.

Marrdro
02-06-2013, 03:11 PM
Agreed, if you are looking at scheme some amy pass up quality guys. Where do you put Ogletree in a 3-4. I think he is a great fit in a 4-3 as a WILL Backer but I am not sure how he would fit in a 3-4. Granted I am not a defensive guru but that is my opinion.
I looked at him a little but not enough to give an opinion as of yet.......Just about every board you look at he is all over the place not only in projected round, but projected position as well.

Cory Chavous site has him as a straight up LB
DraftNasty.com :: Position List (http://www.draftnasty.com/football/position_list/?list=Full&year=2013&ccm_paging_p_b=2)

Ourlads have him as an ILB
Ourlads Pre Combine Top 100 2013 NFL Draft - 2/6/13 (http://www.ourlads.com/top-32-college-senior-prospects/nfl-draft/2013/2120833)

CBS has him as their 2nd ranked OLB
NFL Draft - 2013 NFL Draft Prospects - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2013/OLB)

Purple Floyd
02-06-2013, 11:51 PM
So a team that drafts a player that fits their scheme, over a player with more talent, is going to be better than a team that drafts a player with the most talent, and tailors their scheme to utilize that talent.

Does not seem logical !
No one ever seriously threw around the logic card anyways so take it for what it is worth.

singersp
02-07-2013, 07:43 AM
Aren't you one of the cats who tried to convince me that the HC sat at the table in NY and sent the pick in? LOL

Nope!

Especially considering the fact that at all the draft parties I went to at Winter Park, Childress was there. So how could he be in NY?


What kindof drivel are you spewing forth now. Are you going to sit here and try to tell me you understand the draft or FA process better than I?

LOL! Yeah, no one knows the draft process or FA process or what the GM's role is better than Marrdro does.

And you base this expertise on what? Spreadsheets?

tarkenton10
02-07-2013, 09:10 AM
I looked at him a little but not enough to give an opinion as of yet.......Just about every board you look at he is all over the place not only in projected round, but projected position as well.

Cory Chavous site has him as a straight up LB
DraftNasty.com :: Position List (http://www.draftnasty.com/football/position_list/?list=Full&year=2013&ccm_paging_p_b=2)

Ourlads have him as an ILB
Ourlads Pre Combine Top 100 2013 NFL Draft - 2/6/13 (http://www.ourlads.com/top-32-college-senior-prospects/nfl-draft/2013/2120833)

CBS has him as their 2nd ranked OLB
NFL Draft - 2013 NFL Draft Prospects - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2013/OLB)

He is listed at 236 lbs. so he would have to be a stud to take on NFL guards at the MIke pos. CBS is pretty accurate IMO, I think he would make a great Will in a 4-3 and chase the ball from the weak side. I think if he is in the right 3-4 defense he can be very dangerous, one team that would scare me if they got him would be the Pukers. I think he would be devastaing blitzing and coming off the back side and using his speed to catch our backs.

jargomcfargo
02-07-2013, 01:26 PM
No one ever seriously threw around the logic card anyways so take it for what it is worth.

I hear you. I was just trying to gain a more complete understanding of Marrdro world, but he just gave the standard expected response. I guess it's safe to say the Vikings would have passed on RG III if he were available. That guy doesn't fit our scheme.
As fans we can only extrapolate theories based limited information. You have to admit, our old friend Marrdro is one of the most prolific.
Agree or disagree, his perspective is almost always interesting.

tarkenton10
02-07-2013, 03:04 PM
I hear you. I was just trying to gain a more complete understanding of Marrdro world, but he just gave the standard expected response. I guess it's safe to say the Vikings would have passed on RG III if he were available. That guy doesn't fit our scheme.
As fans we can only extrapolate theories based limited information. You have to admit, our old friend Marrdro is one of the most prolific.
Agree or disagree, his perspective is almost always interesting.

The more I see of RGIII the more I am pessimistic of his impact in the NFL. Unless he changes his style he will be one of those great players who will wear the moniker of "when he is healthy". I love his style and he is very dangerous but if he doesn't learn to slide sooner and continues to act like a RB he will be done in a few years, I believe he only weighs a buck ninety, way too small to be taking hits by linebackers and Dlinemen.

jargomcfargo
02-07-2013, 04:07 PM
The more I see of RGIII the more I am pessimistic of his impact in the NFL. Unless he changes his style he will be one of those great players who will wear the moniker of "when he is healthy". I love his style and he is very dangerous but if he doesn't learn to slide sooner and continues to act like a RB he will be done in a few years, I believe he only weighs a buck ninety, way too small to be taking hits by linebackers and Dlinemen.

That's why I think this, so called, new trend will be short lived. Personally, I have no idea why Shanahan would risk his health the way he did. RG III is an accurate passer with excellent intelligence; a real franchise quality QB who should only use his great speed to run when there is no other alternative.
It is up to the coaching staff to save him from himself.

tarkenton10
02-07-2013, 05:04 PM
OK, I picked a bad example....Way to hang me out there old friend.....:)

Point still is, they could pass on a more talented guy if he doesn't fit what we need.

Soory, I am with you on this thread, I don't know what came over me. My friend, please keep on the spreadsheets!!!!!

midgensa
09-01-2015, 01:43 PM
Saw an article today on 538 that reminded me of this ridiculous thread where someone said that building through the draft was a myth ... well.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/2015-nfl-preview-what-to-expect-if-youre-a-packers-lions-vikings-or-bears-fan/

Does not look like a myth when the Top 5 homegrown teams all made the playoffs, the Super Bowl teams were both in the Top 10 of homegrown and the top nine teams in outside help only produced ONE playoff team (The Colts).

Zimmer is doing it the right way now. Building through the draft is the ONLY way. Unless you steal away someone like Peyton Manning.

bleedpurple
09-10-2015, 12:50 PM
Saw an article today on 538 that reminded me of this ridiculous thread where someone said that building through the draft was a myth ... well.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/2015-nfl-preview-what-to-expect-if-youre-a-packers-lions-vikings-or-bears-fan/

Does not look like a myth when the Top 5 homegrown teams all made the playoffs, the Super Bowl teams were both in the Top 10 of homegrown and the top nine teams in outside help only produced ONE playoff team (The Colts).

Zimmer is doing it the right way now. Building through the draft is the ONLY way. Unless you steal away someone like Peyton Manning.

or the patriots

midgensa
09-10-2015, 03:21 PM
or the patriots

Or the Patriots what? They had the No. 10 team of Homegrown players. Seems like they built through the draft as well.

Still not a myth.

QuadoCox
09-10-2015, 03:32 PM
Came back to say hi... remember why I left. SMH
YOu guys still haven't gotten past 2 sentences of comprehension. Allow me to help.
"Just wanted to point out that the theory of building through the draft only is a myth" To be a successful team, you have to build with balance.

Also it is a statistical misnomer to use only 1 year of collected information to define a fact. What was the percentage in 2014, 2013, 2012?
Just thought I would help. See you guys again next year.

midgensa
09-12-2015, 09:08 AM
What the skins did in the late 1990's was abysmal and not advisable. I still believe it takes balance. I don't think the core of those teams were built thru the draft. It seems like it's about half and half. If you build through the draft...by the time your stars become stars, their contracts are up and you end up losing most of your best players.

Examine any team and you see a great deal of starters that were signed and not drafted.
It's nothing different than we did during our run in 2009. We had about 1 key starter on every level that we did not draft

Allen, Leber, Winfield is no different than Smith, Brooks, Rogers

OBVIOUSLY there has to be some balance. Which is what everyone who disagreed with you said. The problem was your statements like this "It seems like it's about half and half." Which is completely incorrect.

I pointed out how the two teams in that Super Bowl (Baltimore and San Francisco) were actually built through the draft, which you kept arguing against despite overwhelming numbers supporting that most of their production was from drafted players.

You tried to call it half and half. However, it is clear that it should be heavy building through the draft and supplementing in the spots where you miss. For example, this Vikings team that people are getting (maybe a little prematurely) excited about ... are you going to argue they are not built through the draft?

So, feel free to wait until next year, or respond here. You will still be wrong.

Leafman
09-12-2015, 11:22 AM
They crunch a lot of numbers. Many teams have a couple employees whose sole job is to crunch numbers.

If building through the draft was a myth, NFL teams would know it, and would not devote the incredible amount of human and financial resources to scouting, assessing and preparing for the draft and executing a draft strategy.

Those that deploy these draft resources well build champions. Those that do it poorly are stuck in mediocrity, or worse, for extended periods of time.

There is no debate here.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

midgensa
09-12-2015, 11:40 AM
They crunch a lot of numbers. Many teams have a couple employees whose sole job is to crunch numbers.

If building through the draft was a myth, NFL teams would know it, and would not devote the incredible amount of human and financial resources to scouting, assessing and preparing for the draft and executing a draft strategy.

Those that deploy these draft resources well build champions. Those that do it poorly are stuck in mediocrity, or worse, for extended periods of time.

There is no debate here.

LEAFMAN THE PURPLE FAN

Pretty well said.

ConnecticutViking
09-15-2015, 09:10 AM
Great organizations re-tool. Packers, Patriots, Niners. We don't