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singersp
01-07-2013, 07:18 AM
Vikingsí Finish May Have Solidified Ponderís Role

Vikings’ Finish May Have Solidified Ponder’s Role ę CBS Minnesota (http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/01/06/vikings-finish-may-have-solidified-ponders-role/)

Purple Floyd
01-07-2013, 08:09 AM
If we have Ponder and the rest of the division has Rodgers, Stafford and Cutler we may sneak in a playoff run here and there but will never be able to dominate the division over time or consistently make championship runs.

NodakPaul
01-07-2013, 09:52 AM
I don't think it solidifies anything. It tells us that Webb was not a viable alternative, and hopefully it silenced some of the more adamant fans... but there is no way that Ponder should be the defacto starter next season.

I do think he has earned the chance to compete for the starting spot. But I also think we need to bring in a serious candidate for the position in to compete with him.

kingpin9995
01-07-2013, 09:57 AM
I don't think it solidifies anything. It tells us that Webb was not a viable alternative, and hopefully it silenced some of the more adamant fans... but there is no way that Ponder should be the defacto starter next season.

I do think he has earned the chance to compete for the starting spot. But I also think we need to bring in a serious candidate for the position in to compete with him.

Speilman embarrassed himself and the rest of MN with the performance of Webb Saturday night. To have the most important position on the field and the backup role filled by Jolly Joe who is not even a third string qb in this league was a pathetic failure on his part. The game was over before it started thanks to the decision to put a green deer in the headlights as your backup qb that can be asked to play at a moments notice. Same old Vikings. And yes in this division Ponder will never be the guy to take this team to the top. He's average at best.

jmcdon00
01-07-2013, 10:46 AM
The best thing Ponder did this year was stay healthy all season, until now. Almost all of the best QB's in the league rarely miss games. To me his not being able to go was a big negative on his season, worse than if he had just had a bad game(which I sorta expected).
I think he is probably the starter next year, and with better recievers and more experience he should get better. But if he can't stay healthy he won't be here for very long.
I really hope they don't go after any of the big name quarterbacks that could be available. They are available for a reason(no to Alex Smith, Tony Romo, Michael Vick).

Marrdro
01-08-2013, 12:16 PM
The best thing Ponder did this year was stay healthy all season, until now. Almost all of the best QB's in the league rarely miss games. To me his not being able to go was a big negative on his season, worse than if he had just had a bad game(which I sorta expected).
I think he is probably the starter next year, and with better recievers and more experience he should get better. But if he can't stay healthy he won't be here for very long.
I really hope they don't go after any of the big name quarterbacks that could be available. They are available for a reason(no to Alex Smith, Tony Romo, Michael Vick).

When was the last time I told you that you were wise beyond your years?

The checkbook will be opened again. A FA WR will be added, hopefully he is a big tall possession kindof guy and they might even spend on a older vet QB to come in and hold Ponders jock while he continues to learn on the field.

By this time next year, no one will be worrying about Ponder anymore, they will have moved on to bigger and better things like the new color of our "Away" uniforms.

Ranger
01-08-2013, 12:29 PM
Ponder: 81.2 QBR, 62.1%, 2935 yds, 6.1 avg, 18 tds / 12 ints
Cutler: 81.3 QBR, 58.8 %, 3033 yds, 7.0 avg, 19 tds / 14 ints
Stafford: 78.9 QBR, 59.8 %, 4967 yds, 6.8 avg, 20 tds / 17 ints

Ponder, in his second year, appears to be holding his own. This division, following quarterbacks and teams, is clearly Green Bay, then everybody else. The difference is, Cutler is probably not going to be anybody other than the Cutler we've seen. Stafford and Ponder still might improve, and I'd say the stacked boxes against Peterson are offset by the fact that Stafford has a much better group of receivers.

Lets not be too quick to write off Ponder. He's still a baby, and just because recent young quarterbacks have had immediate success (Newton, Luck, RGIII, Dalton, Ryan, Flacco) doesn't mean that they all can. Some need time (Brees), and some of those young players have regressed from their stellar rookie campaigns (Newton, Dalton).

Marrdro
01-08-2013, 12:34 PM
Ponder: 81.2 QBR, 62.1%, 2935 yds, 6.1 avg, 18 tds / 12 ints
Cutler: 81.3 QBR, 58.8 %, 3033 yds, 7.0 avg, 19 tds / 14 ints
Stafford: 78.9 QBR, 59.8 %, 4967 yds, 6.8 avg, 20 tds / 17 ints

Ponder, in his second year, appears to be holding his own. This division, following quarterbacks and teams, is clearly Green Bay, then everybody else. The difference is, Cutler is probably not going to be anybody other than the Cutler we've seen. Stafford and Ponder still might improve, and I'd say the stacked boxes against Peterson are offset by the fact that Stafford has a much better group of receivers.

Lets not be too quick to write off Ponder. He's still a baby, and just because recent young quarterbacks have had immediate success (Newton, Luck, RGIII, Dalton, Ryan, Flacco) doesn't mean that they all can. Some need time (Brees), and some of those young players have regressed from their stellar rookie campaigns (Newton, Dalton).

Top shelf my friend. Top shelf indeed.

Lets not forget one thing, even though the offense revolved around AD the second half of the season, it didn't in the first half. Truth of the matter is, AD had something like 1 game of over 100 yards until Percy went down.

At one point, 4 or 5 games into the schedule young Ponder, with just Percy was the highest rated QB in accuracy. Percy and Welker were leading the league in catches and yardage and then the sky fell and Percy went down.

Then, and only then did AD take over.

And one more thing, even when AD took over, AD still got his yards with Ponder under center. Did anyone notice that he didn't with someone like Webb under center? Anyone, Buehler, Buehler?

Ranger
01-08-2013, 01:56 PM
Ponder '11: 70.1 QBR, 54.3%, 1853 yds, 6.4 avg, 13tds / 13 ints
Ponder '12: 81.2 QBR, 62.1%, 2935 yds, 6.1 avg, 18tds / 12 ints

If he has a similar jump next season, will people still be calling to replace him? That would put him at...

Ponder '13: 92.3 QBR, 69.9%, 4017 yds, 5.8 avg, 23tds / 11ints

Obviously, the percentage would be asking a lot, and the average will probably stay around where it's been, but would the rest appeal to anybody here? Would it be a significant enough improvement to assume he's a franchise quarterback?

kingpin9995
01-08-2013, 05:14 PM
Ponder '11: 70.1 QBR, 54.3%, 1853 yds, 6.4 avg, 13tds / 13 ints
Ponder '12: 81.2 QBR, 62.1%, 2935 yds, 6.1 avg, 18tds / 12 ints

If he has a similar jump next season, will people still be calling to replace him? That would put him at...

Ponder '13: 92.3 QBR, 69.9%, 4017 yds, 5.8 avg, 23tds / 11ints

Obviously, the percentage would be asking a lot, and the average will probably stay around where it's been, but would the rest appeal to anybody here? Would it be a significant enough improvement to assume he's a franchise quarterback?

The closest thing I can compare Ponder to is a young Rich Gannon. Both very athletic but limited in their skill sets as far as throwing the ball. As we know Gannon in his later years figured it out and became a pretty good qb for a few seasons. Ponder could be that kind of player, not a franchise guy but a guy with all the cards falling in the right place having a chance to maybe hit one MAYBE two Superbowl runs. Let's face it Rodgers types don't come along very often and the Pack hit on that one where so many teams passed. Who knew, I just wish instead of Erasmus James and Williamson we would have nabbed him before the Pack that year. A monumental bust of a draft when you look at what was there for us and what we went and took. Unbelievable when you think about it, BUT, even Rodgers on the wrong team could have failed. He had the perfect scenario sitting behind Favre for 3 plus years . Who knows if he's thrown into the fire day one it's possibe he struggles and never really shows what he has been able to.

jargomcfargo
01-08-2013, 08:29 PM
The closest thing I can compare Ponder to is a young Rich Gannon. Both very athletic but limited in their skill sets as far as throwing the ball. As we know Gannon in his later years figured it out and became a pretty good qb for a few seasons. Ponder could be that kind of player, not a franchise guy but a guy with all the cards falling in the right place having a chance to maybe hit one MAYBE two Superbowl runs. Let's face it Rodgers types don't come along very often and the Pack hit on that one where so many teams passed. Who knew, I just wish instead of Erasmus James and Williamson we would have nabbed him before the Pack that year. A monumental bust of a draft when you look at what was there for us and what we went and took. Unbelievable when you think about it, BUT, even Rodgers on the wrong team could have failed. He had the perfect scenario sitting behind Favre for 3 plus years . Who knows if he's thrown into the fire day one it's possibe he struggles and never really shows what he has been able to.
Gannon actually was very fast and had accuracy early. He was never given the chance. In fact he had a contract with the Vikings that paid him substantially less if he never took a regular season snap.
Ponder is somewhat fast and inaccurate, but has been given the chance to prove himself.
I don't see the much similarity between the two.

I do agree with the poor draft history, and the inability to spot talent.

A number of players that didn't do well with the Vikings have gone on to prosper on other teams. Gannon was just one of them.

purplejokr
01-08-2013, 08:39 PM
Ponder '11: 70.1 QBR, 54.3%, 1853 yds, 6.4 avg, 13tds / 13 ints
Ponder '12: 81.2 QBR, 62.1%, 2935 yds, 6.1 avg, 18tds / 12 ints

If he has a similar jump next season, will people still be calling to replace him? That would put him at...

Ponder '13: 92.3 QBR, 69.9%, 4017 yds, 5.8 avg, 23tds / 11ints

Obviously, the percentage would be asking a lot, and the average will probably stay around where it's been, but would the rest appeal to anybody here? Would it be a significant enough improvement to assume he's a franchise quarterback?

+1

I have not given up on Ponder. I feel that QBs take a few seasons truly get acclimated to the pro game. The upcoming season is Ponder's make or break year for me. I am hopeful and a touch optimistic.

kevoncox
01-08-2013, 10:07 PM
+1

I have not given up on Ponder. I feel that QBs take a few seasons truly get acclimated to the pro game. The upcoming season is Ponder's make or break year for me. I am hopeful and a touch optimistic.
All these are reasons why stats aren't the end all. Ponder didn't pass the eye test to me. He had several games early on where he padded his completion percentage and it quickly spiraled down. Some thing with his td to int ratio. Padded against the easy teams and spiraled when the going got tough.

C Mac D
01-08-2013, 10:48 PM
All these are reasons why stats aren't the end all. Ponder didn't pass the eye test to me. He had several games early on where he padded his completion percentage and it quickly spiraled down. Some thing with his td to int ratio. Padded against the easy teams and spiraled when the going got tough.

Actually agree with you on this, Ponder didn't impress me at all. Far too jittery in the pocket, held my breath every time he went back to pass.

We'll see though, he has another season (maybe two) to develop, so I'm rooting for him as long as he's wearing purple.

The guy got us to the playoffs... then again, so did Frerotte/Jackson.

singersp
01-09-2013, 06:40 AM
Ponder '11: 70.1 QBR, 54.3%, 1853 yds, 6.4 avg, 13tds / 13 ints
Ponder '12: 81.2 QBR, 62.1%, 2935 yds, 6.1 avg, 18tds / 12 ints

If he has a similar jump next season, will people still be calling to replace him? That would put him at...

Ponder '13: 92.3 QBR, 69.9%, 4017 yds, 5.8 avg, 23tds / 11ints

Obviously, the percentage would be asking a lot, and the average will probably stay around where it's been, but would the rest appeal to anybody here? Would it be a significant enough improvement to assume he's a franchise quarterback?

If you're going to play the game, might as well play it right. Ponder only played in 10.25 games in 2011, so if you base those numbers on a per game basis, as it should be, the numbers look more like this;

Ponder '13: 92.3 QBR, 69.9%, 2976 YDs, 5.8 AVG, 17 TDs, 4 INTs

Now what do you think?

Now if you still feel the percentage would be asking a lot, and the average will probably stay around where it's been, then obviously the QBR would drop considerably.

What you're left looking at are fewer TD's & fewer INT's.

Now what do you think?

Purple Floyd
01-09-2013, 08:56 AM
I think even if he does reach his full potential he will still be the 4th best QB in our 4 team division and that is the part that worries me. That is a huge liability when the other 3 teams have QB's who could very well still be playing at a high level for another 8 -10 years.

Ranger
01-09-2013, 09:20 AM
If you're going to play the game, might as well play it right. Ponder only played in 10.25 games in 2011, so if you base those numbers on a per game basis, as it should be, the numbers look more like this;

Ponder '13: 92.3 QBR, 69.9%, 2976 YDs, 5.8 AVG, 17 TDs, 4 INTs

Now what do you think?

Now if you still feel the percentage would be asking a lot, and the average will probably stay around where it's been, then obviously the QBR would drop considerably.

What you're left looking at are fewer TD's & fewer INT's.

Now what do you think?

It's difficult to say. I suppose it would involve some understanding of the passing weapons around him, as well as his protection. If he's constantly under pressure with the same receivers we have now, and is putting up improved numbers, then I'd probably be satisfied. If he somehow winds up in possession of great talents at the receiver position and has Brady-like time to deliver the ball, then I would be less impressed.

Ultimately, if he continues to show signs of marked improvement, I suspect that I'll be happy.

Ranger
01-09-2013, 09:22 AM
I think even if he does reach his full potential he will still be the 4th best QB in our 4 team division and that is the part that worries me. That is a huge liability when the other 3 teams have QB's who could very well still be playing at a high level for another 8 -10 years.

Did you see his numbers when compared to Jay Cutler? Cutler has two good running backs and one of the best receivers in the league, and Stafford, while a greater physical talent, wasn't much better than Ponder. He had a significantly larger yardage, but he threw significantly more passes, as well. He also has a vastly superior set of receiving options.

I honestly feel that the division is Discount Double Check, followed by a large drop off, then everybody else.

Randy Moss
01-09-2013, 10:49 AM
All these are reasons why stats aren't the end all. Ponder didn't pass the eye test to me. He had several games early on where he padded his completion percentage and it quickly spiraled down. Some thing with his td to int ratio. Padded against the easy teams and spiraled when the going got tough.

Except his best games (according to QBR) were against:
GB - Best team we played all season - 3td 0int 234
SF - 2nd Best team we played - 3td(1 rush) 0 int 198
STL - Solid Team - 1td(rush) 0 int 131
DET - okay, they're bad - 2td 0int 221

tastywaves
01-09-2013, 10:57 AM
Except his best games (according to QBR) were against:
GB - Best team we played all season - 3td 0int 234
SF - 2nd Best team we played - 3td(1 rush) 0 int 198
STL - Solid Team - 1td(rush) 0 int 131
DET - okay, they're bad - 2td 0int 221

I was far from impressed with his play this year, but I will give him credit for playing his best games when facing the best teams and when we needed a win to stay in the playoff race. Would have really liked to see him perform in the playoff game.

Purple Floyd
01-09-2013, 11:22 AM
Did you see his numbers when compared to Jay Cutler? Cutler has two good running backs and one of the best receivers in the league, and Stafford, while a greater physical talent, wasn't much better than Ponder. He had a significantly larger yardage, but he threw significantly more passes, as well. He also has a vastly superior set of receiving options.

I honestly feel that the division is Discount Double Check, followed by a large drop off, then everybody else.

Numbers never tell the whole story. Cutler and Stafford had lines that were worse than ours. If you take all 4 QB's and put them on the same team and evaluate them Ponder is in 4th place. The teams always change around the QB so their performance tends to change with that but give them all identical tools to work with and ponder is just plain the 4th most talented QB in our division.

Ranger
01-09-2013, 11:39 AM
Numbers never tell the whole story. Cutler and Stafford had lines that were worse than ours. If you take all 4 QB's and put them on the same team and evaluate them Ponder is in 4th place. The teams always change around the QB so their performance tends to change with that but give them all identical tools to work with and ponder is just plain the 4th most talented QB in our division.

451


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6GbeeCJ1C4

452

453

Jay Cutler is not much better than Ponder, if at all. He has a tremendous arm, unbelievably strong really, but has a ton of issues. His footwork is sloppy, causing him to rely on the arm too much. He holds the ball far too long. He makes awful throws on a frequent basis. You guys have watched him for a while now, do you really think he's that good?

tastywaves
01-09-2013, 11:55 AM
Jay Cutler is not much better than Ponder, if at all. He has a tremendous arm, unbelievably strong really, but has a ton of issues. His footwork is sloppy, causing him to rely on the arm too much. He holds the ball far too long. He makes awful throws on a frequent basis. You guys have watched him for a while now, do you really think he's that good?

Have to agree with Ranger on this one. Cutler is more gifted physically, but he has plenty of issues that cause his team losses. Not sure the Vikings would be any better off with Cutler than they are with Ponder.

As far as physical talent, Ponder is easily #4, but that has never been a good indicator for a QB's success in this league.

kevoncox
01-09-2013, 12:25 PM
Have to agree with Ranger on this one. Cutler is more gifted physically, but he has plenty of issues that cause his team losses. Not sure the Vikings would be any better off with Cutler than they are with Ponder.

As far as physical talent, Ponder is easily #4, but that has never been a good indicator for a QB's success in this league.

You are joking right?
Just because a player wears purple doesn't mean he is good.
Cutler is a damn good QB. His biggest issues is his attitude and the way he is perceived. However, make no mistake, the guy is damn good. No team that Cutler is on, would be dead last in passing. Ponder is a bum. He's our bum but a bum. His 234 yards and 3 TDs... was a great Ponder game but it wasn't prolific. The kid is just the definition of average. I would swap Ponder for Cutler in a heart beat. I believe our FO would too.

LASTLY....people see to miss this point.... so please....
*******pay attention************

None of them plays with a running back that teams are putting 9...yes 9 in the box to stop. None. Not one. You give Stafford or Cutler 9 in the box and they would make the Hall of Fame. Our QB SUCKSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ranger
01-09-2013, 12:37 PM
You are joking right?
Just because a player wears purple doesn't mean he is good.
Cutler is a damn good QB. His biggest issues is his attitude and the way he is perceived. However, make no mistake, the guy is damn good. No team that Cutler is on, would be dead last in passing. Ponder is a bum. He's our bum but a bum. His 234 yards and 3 TDs... was a great Ponder game but it wasn't prolific. The kid is just the definition of average. I would swap Ponder for Cutler in a heart beat. I believe our FO would too.

What evidence do you have to support Cutler as being a "damn good" quarterback? His statistics don't reflect this. His game tape doesn't reflect it, either.

Cutler can throw laser beam passes down the field, unfortunately they frequently land in the chest and hands of the wrong guys on the field. When he's not hurling lightning bolts, he's holding onto the ball until somebody eventually sacks him.

His lifetime passer rating is an 84. In seven years, he has 36 more touchdowns than picks. A true "damn good" quarterback, Discount Double Dork, was +31...this year alone.

I'm not saying that Ponder is better than Cutler. I'm saying that the difference between them isn't this yawning chasm that people assume it is, particularly when you consider the results from this season. Cutler has worse protection? He also had a top NFL receiver healthy for the whole season. He has a running back that is one of (if not the best) the top pass receiving running backs in the league.

He's a middle of the road quarterback. Seven years in, it's probably all he's ever going to be. At least Ponder is young and can potentially evolve into a top flight guy, or at least a passer better than Cutler.

Purple Floyd
01-09-2013, 12:46 PM
451


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6GbeeCJ1C4

452

453

Jay Cutler is not much better than Ponder, if at all. He has a tremendous arm, unbelievably strong really, but has a ton of issues. His footwork is sloppy, causing him to rely on the arm too much. He holds the ball far too long. He makes awful throws on a frequent basis. You guys have watched him for a while now, do you really think he's that good?

I guess we can agree to disagree on this one but my guess is 99% of the football world including coaches and GM's would take Culter over Ponder if they had the chance.

I could certainly pull up a video of ponder from any of his several sub 100 yard games and produce a fairly compelling video.

Marrdro
01-09-2013, 12:50 PM
Except his best games (according to QBR) were against:
GB - Best team we played all season - 3td 0int 234
SF - 2nd Best team we played - 3td(1 rush) 0 int 198
STL - Solid Team - 1td(rush) 0 int 131
DET - okay, they're bad - 2td 0int 221
20 of 27 week 1, wasn't a bad effort. I know it was a loss, but what about the Indy game? Sure wasn't his fault we lost that one. Week 6 vs Deadskins. He had a hell of a time in that one but I think played well. That defense was eating up our OL all day. (21 passing 1rst downs/4 rushing....AD only had 79 yards off of 19 rushes). Defense sucked against the run and in the red zone.

Purple Floyd
01-09-2013, 01:03 PM
Was someone actually posting fantasy football stats as a basis for a point?

Marrdro
01-09-2013, 01:04 PM
Was someone actually posting fantasy football stats as a basis for a point?

LOL, not me.

Ranger
01-09-2013, 01:10 PM
Was someone actually posting fantasy football stats as a basis for a point?

Only if you think I was posting the Inception spoof trailer as anything other than comedy.

tastywaves
01-09-2013, 01:32 PM
You are joking right?
Just because a player wears purple doesn't mean he is good.
Cutler is a damn good QB. His biggest issues is his attitude and the way he is perceived. However, make no mistake, the guy is damn good. No team that Cutler is on, would be dead last in passing. Ponder is a bum. He's our bum but a bum. His 234 yards and 3 TDs... was a great Ponder game but it wasn't prolific. The kid is just the definition of average. I would swap Ponder for Cutler in a heart beat. I believe our FO would too.

LASTLY....people see to miss this point.... so please....
*******pay attention************

None of them plays with a running back that teams are putting 9...yes 9 in the box to stop. None. Not one. You give Stafford or Cutler 9 in the box and they would make the Hall of Fame. Our QB SUCKSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kevon, I know how much you love strong arm quarterback's. But, there is a lot more that goes into being a successful QB than how well you can throw the ball. I'm not saying Ponder has earned any level of respect at this point, but I'm not convinced that swapping him with Cutler would make us a better team.

And you can stop with your myth about how any decent QB would be instant HOF'ers with Peterson in the backfield. It sounds good, but it doesn't have any meat behind it. Much of Peterson's success comes because MN is a run first oriented offense. Being good at running the ball, doesn't equate to more success in passing the ball. Actually quite the opposite is true as has been pointed out many times in these multitude of threads.

Your same argument could be used to say that GB should instantly have one of the best running games in the league because of their prolific passing ability that causes defenses to focus on shutting that done over anything else. I would wager that if you put Peterson in GB or NE, that he would have less production than he has today with MN.

Cutler has a much better arm than Ponder, but that doesn't necessarily make him a better QB. Ponder may never improve from where he is at today and may very well not be the answer for MN. But saying Cutler makes us instant contenders is bit of a stretch for me as well.

Lippythelion69
01-09-2013, 02:28 PM
I just don't see the arm strength but time will tell
I hope I'm wrong about him

VKG4LFE
01-10-2013, 11:38 PM
I am baffled how people love Ponder so much. He is an average at very best QB. Yes he's only started what 26ish games. Should he get more time? Maybe. But how long does it take to figure out if he's got "it?" Will it be after 42 starts? 58? When will the apologists realize that he just isn't that good. That when he drops back into the pocket he lasts a split second before freaking out and looking to move out of it. He looks scared and confused back there most of the time. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

GO NINERS!

Reignman
01-11-2013, 03:51 AM
Hold the phone, maybe I can help end this debate with a simple little chart.

http://i47.tinypic.com/9l8rbm.png

If you didn't think TJoke was the answer, there's no reason for you to believe Ponder is the answer. And 3 teams have given up on the first guy already.

Purple Floyd
01-11-2013, 08:21 AM
Agreed.

NodakPaul
01-11-2013, 08:34 AM
Hold the phone, maybe I can help end this debate with a simple little chart.

http://i47.tinypic.com/9l8rbm.png

If you didn't think TJoke was the answer, there's no reason for you to believe Ponder is the answer. And 3 teams have given up on the first guy already.

Ah yes, the stat chart. Obviously the best way to evaluate a player. Because the stats ALWAYS tell the whole story, and they DEFINITELY account for any external factors...

:rolleyes:

Purple Floyd
01-11-2013, 09:16 AM
Ah yes, the stat chart. Obviously the best way to evaluate a player. Because the stats ALWAYS tell the whole story, and they DEFINITELY account for any external factors...

:rolleyes:

Heck, I think someone used a fantasy football ranking recently to prove a point. :think:

NodakPaul
01-11-2013, 09:21 AM
I am baffled how people love Ponder so much. He is an average at very best QB. Yes he's only started what 26ish games. Should he get more time? Maybe. But how long does it take to figure out if he's got "it?" Will it be after 42 starts? 58? When will the apologists realize that he just isn't that good. That when he drops back into the pocket he lasts a split second before freaking out and looking to move out of it. He looks scared and confused back there most of the time. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

GO NINERS!

The part in bold I disagree with. I would have agreed halfway through the season, but I saw a definite improvement in his pocket presence and comfort level in the last quarter. If anything, that is what allowed him to perform as well as he did the last four weeks.

My complaint with Ponder is more related to arm strength - he simply doesn't have the strength to get the ball down field with enough velocity. It makes his long throws that much easier to defend against, and virtually eliminates the middle of the field past 20 yards. Now I know as well as everyone else that this can be overcome - look at Alex Smith, he is in the exact same boat. And arm strength is second to accuracy and poise - look at Joe Webb. But it still frustrates me.

I do like how Musgrave tweaked the offense to take better advantage of our strengths and hide our weaknesses. I also understand that Ponder played well enough in the last four games to earn a spot on next years roster, although I would personally rather see him compete for the starting spot. I am cautiously optimistic for next year, but I think that stems more from the potential of new talent more than the potential for Ponder to become a great QB. He is an average, maybe slightly above average QB. But given the quality of QBs out there (or lack there of), that may be the best option available.

NodakPaul
01-11-2013, 09:55 AM
Heck, I think someone used a fantasy football ranking recently to prove a point. :think:

Well that is legitimate. ;)

Ranger
01-11-2013, 10:07 AM
Well that is legitimate. ;)

Seriously guys?

C Mac D
01-11-2013, 10:43 AM
Hold the phone, maybe I can help end this debate with a simple little chart.

http://i47.tinypic.com/9l8rbm.png

If you didn't think TJoke was the answer, there's no reason for you to believe Ponder is the answer. And 3 teams have given up on the first guy already.

They'll insult stats when they go against their argument... but use stats when they help prove their argument. It's true though, there's not much different in Ponder's play verses Jackson's. For some reason though, people are much more willing to give Ponder time to develop.

A lot of fans on these boards had something against Jackson other than his play on the football field... that much is for sure - interpret that as you will. Ponder has been just as mediocre as Jackson ever was, but he doesn't get nearly as much venom thrown his way. That's just a fact.

C Mac D
01-11-2013, 10:45 AM
Ah yes, the stat chart. Obviously the best way to evaluate a player. Because the stats ALWAYS tell the whole story, and they DEFINITELY account for any external factors...

:rolleyes:

And I guess emoticons are an intelligent argument?

tastywaves
01-11-2013, 10:59 AM
They'll insult stats when they go against their argument... but use stats when they help prove their argument. It's true though, there's not much different in Ponder's play verses Jackson's. For some reason though, people are much more willing to give Ponder time to develop.

A lot of fans on these boards had something against Jackson other than his play on the football field... that much is for sure - interpret that as you will. Ponder has been just as mediocre as Jackson ever was, but he doesn't get nearly as much venom thrown his way. That's just a fact.

Duh!

Purple Floyd
01-11-2013, 11:53 AM
It's true though, there's not much different in Ponder's play verses Jackson's. For some reason though, people are much more willing to give Ponder time to develop.



Can'r say I disagree with that.



A lot of fans on these boards had something against Jackson other than his play on the football field... that much is for sure - interpret that as you will. Ponder has been just as mediocre as Jackson ever was, but he doesn't get nearly as much venom thrown his way. That's just a fact.
Part of that might have been that Jackson had a better team around him at the time and he was basically the weak link in the chain. This team had far lower expectations(is that really a good thing?) so they are not holding him as much at fault for things. but I do agree there is probably some undercurrent of bias.

Purple Floyd
01-11-2013, 11:54 AM
And I guess emoticons are an intelligent argument?
:think:

C Mac D
01-11-2013, 12:46 PM
:think:

:clap:

Marrdro
01-11-2013, 01:34 PM
Kevon, I know how much you love strong arm quarterback's. But, there is a lot more that goes into being a successful QB than how well you can throw the ball. I'm not saying Ponder has earned any level of respect at this point, but I'm not convinced that swapping him with Cutler would make us a better team.

And you can stop with your myth about how any decent QB would be instant HOF'ers with Peterson in the backfield. It sounds good, but it doesn't have any meat behind it. Much of Peterson's success comes because MN is a run first oriented offense. Being good at running the ball, doesn't equate to more success in passing the ball. Actually quite the opposite is true as has been pointed out many times in these multitude of threads.

Your same argument could be used to say that GB should instantly have one of the best running games in the league because of their prolific passing ability that causes defenses to focus on shutting that done over anything else. I would wager that if you put Peterson in GB or NE, that he would have less production than he has today with MN.

Cutler has a much better arm than Ponder, but that doesn't necessarily make him a better QB. Ponder may never improve from where he is at today and may very well not be the answer for MN. But saying Cutler makes us instant contenders is bit of a stretch for me as well.

LOL, great post. You should have pointed out how strong of an arm Joe Montanna had and how critical it was to him winning running a scheme that is a direct variant of our scheme.

Ranger
01-11-2013, 01:47 PM
They'll insult stats when they go against their argument... but use stats when they help prove their argument. It's true though, there's not much different in Ponder's play verses Jackson's. For some reason though, people are much more willing to give Ponder time to develop.

A lot of fans on these boards had something against Jackson other than his play on the football field... that much is for sure - interpret that as you will. Ponder has been just as mediocre as Jackson ever was, but he doesn't get nearly as much venom thrown his way. That's just a fact.

You're right about most of this, even if it seems to run counter to my points. I'll say that I've seen more improvement out of Ponder than I did Jackson, and Ponder was viewed as a better quarterback prospect than Jackson by just about everybody. Ponder was a pretty big reach where he went, as most had him going early 2nd, late 1st. When Jackson got drafted, people were asking who he was.

Still, there was a definite improvement and progression from Ponder's first year to his second. I hope to see this as a continuing trend, as it bodes well for our frachise.

To be honest, I was hoping that we'd have found a way to score Jake Locker. Woops.

C Mac D
01-11-2013, 03:28 PM
You're right about most of this, even if it seems to run counter to my points. I'll say that I've seen more improvement out of Ponder than I did Jackson, and Ponder was viewed as a better quarterback prospect than Jackson by just about everybody. Ponder was a pretty big reach where he went, as most had him going early 2nd, late 1st. When Jackson got drafted, people were asking who he was.

Still, there was a definite improvement and progression from Ponder's first year to his second. I hope to see this as a continuing trend, as it bodes well for our frachise.

To be honest, I was hoping that we'd have found a way to score Jake Locker. Woops.

Something we can all be thankful didn't happen.

Titans would be better off with Jackson.

NodakPaul
01-11-2013, 04:59 PM
They'll insult stats when they go against their argument... but use stats when they help prove their argument. It's true though, there's not much different in Ponder's play verses Jackson's. For some reason though, people are much more willing to give Ponder time to develop.

A lot of fans on these boards had something against Jackson other than his play on the football field... that much is for sure - interpret that as you will. Ponder has been just as mediocre as Jackson ever was, but he doesn't get nearly as much venom thrown his way. That's just a fact.

I think there is a hell of a lot of difference between Ponder's play and Jackson's play. The stats are similar, yes. But how they got to those stats are very different. Jackson had a great arm but was horribly inaccurate and made piss poor decisions. Ponder has a weak arm but is fairly accurate (and makes piss poor decisions). :) I see very little similarity in their style of play, and don't think that any comparison of the two based on stats alone is productive.

Stats without context are meaningless, something I have said many, many times over the years.

Regarding the animosity toward Ponder or Jackson, I actually think that Ponder and Jackson have about the same amount of haters and venom. Hell, there were a lot of people here who were destroying Ponder and calling him ever effeminate name they could think of because he didn't play in the playoff game. Had he played and sucked those same people would be complaining. It ebbs and flows with every player of course, and right now Ponder played well in his last four game, so it tends to take a lot of the steam out of the arguments against him. I don't ever remember Jackson putting together a string of 4 consecutive decent games.

What I find most interesting is that the majority of people who complain about that issue were the ones who were pro-TJack before and didn't have much support, and somehow the fact that people aren't rallying around them when they complain about Ponder is some kind of personal insult. Or maybe they just feel like they have less support because the opposition to a person's view is always more noticeable. I say get over it. Ponder is not TJack, and comparisons to him serve no purpose. JMHO.

Oh yeah, and :haha:

VikesfaninWis
01-11-2013, 06:32 PM
Ponder: 81.2 QBR, 62.1%, 2935 yds, 6.1 avg, 18 tds / 12 ints
Cutler: 81.3 QBR, 58.8 %, 3033 yds, 7.0 avg, 19 tds / 14 ints
Stafford: 78.9 QBR, 59.8 %, 4967 yds, 6.8 avg, 20 tds / 17 ints

Ponder, in his second year, appears to be holding his own. This division, following quarterbacks and teams, is clearly Green Bay, then everybody else. The difference is, Cutler is probably not going to be anybody other than the Cutler we've seen. Stafford and Ponder still might improve, and I'd say the stacked boxes against Peterson are offset by the fact that Stafford has a much better group of receivers.

Lets not be too quick to write off Ponder. He's still a baby, and just because recent young quarterbacks have had immediate success (Newton, Luck, RGIII, Dalton, Ryan, Flacco) doesn't mean that they all can. Some need time (Brees), and some of those young players have regressed from their stellar rookie campaigns (Newton, Dalton).

Cutler also missed a few games, so obviously if he played all 16 games his numbers would have been better than Ponder's easily. I am not sold on Ponder at all, but the way he played the final few games of the season, and if they get him some much needed help at WR, he deserves to be the starter next year. With that being said, it doesn't matter how good the WR is if he is constantly being overthrown, or underthrown. That is the problem with Ponder, and he makes some awful decisions at times, which I hope lessens next season. All I know is that there are no more excuses left for him, they finished 10-6 with Harvin missing 6-7 games, and no other household names at WR. If they lock up Harvin long term, and go out and get another playmaker at WR, he will need to play at a high level to keep his job beyond next season.

singersp
01-12-2013, 12:17 PM
Regarding the animosity toward Ponder or Jackson, I actually think that Ponder and Jackson have about the same amount of haters and venom.

If you believe that, how many threads do you believe have been started for the sole purpose of bashing Jackson?

Now, how many threads do you believe have been started for the sole purpose of bashing Ponder?

That one alone proves CmacD's point. Hell, there have been way more threads bashing Jackson since he became a Seahawk than there has been against Ponder.

BTW, I believe your wrong claiming Jackson was horribly more inaccurate than Ponder. Ponder just seems more accurate because he threw more 5 yard passes & passes behind the LOS than anything farther down field.

If you compare the year Jackson got the start for us at the beginning of the year & compare that to Ponder's 2012 year;

Pass Thrown Behind LOS TJ 62.2%, Ponder 79.8%
Pass Thrown 1-10 yds TJ 67.3%, Ponder 66.2%
Pass Thrown 11-20 yds TJ 59.6%, Ponder 45.5&%
Pass Thrown 21-30 yds TJ 12.5%, Ponder 19.0%
Pass Thrown 31+ yds TJ 10.0%, Ponder 9.1%

I also don't believe our pass protection was greater in 2008, nor was our primary WR's that much greater. Our WR's in 2007 were Wade, Rice, Ferguson & Williamson. Compare that to Harvin, Simpson, Jenkins, Wright & Aromashodu

:p

VKG4LFE
01-14-2013, 11:20 PM
The part in bold I disagree with. I would have agreed halfway through the season, but I saw a definite improvement in his pocket presence and comfort level in the last quarter. If anything, that is what allowed him to perform as well as he did the last four weeks.

My complaint with Ponder is more related to arm strength - he simply doesn't have the strength to get the ball down field with enough velocity. It makes his long throws that much easier to defend against, and virtually eliminates the middle of the field past 20 yards. Now I know as well as everyone else that this can be overcome - look at Alex Smith, he is in the exact same boat. And arm strength is second to accuracy and poise - look at Joe Webb. But it still frustrates me.

I do like how Musgrave tweaked the offense to take better advantage of our strengths and hide our weaknesses. I also understand that Ponder played well enough in the last four games to earn a spot on next years roster, although I would personally rather see him compete for the starting spot. I am cautiously optimistic for next year, but I think that stems more from the potential of new talent more than the potential for Ponder to become a great QB. He is an average, maybe slightly above average QB. But given the quality of QBs out there (or lack there of), that may be the best option available.

I agree it got better over time, but there were still plenty of times when he did not let the pocket get created without getting jittery. I can't really blame the guy, I wouldn't want to get my brain bashed in either. Obviously, we need our O-line to give him the time, I just see him not trusting them to keep him a pocket.