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NodakPaul
11-25-2012, 04:05 PM
Well, we got our ass kicked. Discuss...

jargomcfargo
11-25-2012, 04:07 PM
Vikes at Soldier field. Same story different year.

30whales
11-25-2012, 04:09 PM
Ponder...... terrible
Hand the ball the Peterson
Jarius Wright deserves to play when Percy is healthy
I want to see Webb

SharperImage
11-25-2012, 04:12 PM
We may of lost the battle, but the war isnt over. Wounded the bears by taking 5 of their starters from them.. Still in wildcard and division title hunt.. Just gotta go back and do better. Ponder can make plays if people catch the ball, and the O-Line blocks. I thought it was a decent game by Ponder.

LIVike
11-25-2012, 04:15 PM
The bears convert 10 or 11 third downs. Cutler didn't get touched the entire game. Bears were supposed to have this horrible oline but they looked a hell of a lot better than the vikes. They ran on will the entire game as well.

Playcalling was bad at times the obvious one being 3rd and 4th and two and they run the same play. Peterson should have touched the ball on at least one of the downs especially when he was starting to get into a groove. Cant put all of the blame on Ponder yes he over threw and under threw a few passes but 9 drops by the receivers. Its the receivers job to catch the damn ball and when ponder puts it between the numbers or at your hands you catch the god damn ball. Peterson's fumbles were bad yet he seemed like the only player to give a damn in the fourth quarter.

There needs to be a coaching change mainly Musgrave. Coming off of the bye and looking like shit is unacceptable. This is now the second time this year they have had extended time to prepare and both times they looked like shit. Yes its the Bears and it was outside but that is not a good excuse for how they played.

The fumble return overturn after being confirmed seemed like bullshit as well but what do you expect at this point.

NodakPaul
11-25-2012, 04:15 PM
Negatives:
* 9 drops this game. Jesus.
* Bears have a top 10 passing D, but have been giving up a lot on the ground, especially in the last four weeks. We have the top rusher in the NFL and one of the worst passing attacks. So of course we run the ball right? No. We pass 43 times and run 20.
* They were 10/14 on third downs before heading in to garbage time.
* Our DL got ZERo sacks and only 2 pressures against a patchwork OL
* Refs manage to screw us on the PI call in the endzone, and then review a play TWICE to take a TD away from us.

Positives:
* Wright is looking like he has potential.
* ... uh .... um ... shit

ConnecticutViking
11-25-2012, 04:17 PM
Lots to blame...
Turnovers
Dropped Balls
Pass Blocking
D-Line=No pressure
Ponder not able to exploit playaction.
Play calls: Give AD the ball early and often

marstc09
11-25-2012, 04:18 PM
Ponder is not the future.

NodakPaul
11-25-2012, 04:19 PM
Ponder...... terrible
Hand the ball the Peterson
Jarius Wright deserves to play when Percy is healthy
I want to see Webb

I respectfully disagree with the Ponder is terrible comment. I honestly don't know what else he could have done. He can't throw it to himself. (Well, OK he can, but we saw how well that worked out...) He was 22/43 with 9 drops. He needs SOME help. I did like that he is putting some zip on the ball now - but those long passes were not on target either.

I seriously hated the game plan today. I just don't understand why we would try to pass twice as often as run against this team. We were trying to replicate what San Fran did? Doesn't Musgrave understand that our team is built differently than San Fran?

marstc09
11-25-2012, 04:23 PM
Ponder...... terrible
Hand the ball the Peterson
Jarius Wright deserves to play when Percy is healthy
I want to see Webb

I respectfully disagree with the Ponder is terrible comment. I honestly don't know what else he could have done. He can't throw it to himself. (Well, OK he can, but we saw how well that worked out...) He was 22/43 with 9 drops. He needs SOME help. I did like that he is putting some zip on the ball now - but those long passes were not on target either.

I seriously hated the game plan today. I just don't understand why we would try to pass twice as often as run against this team. We were trying to replicate what San Fran did? Doesn't Musgrave understand that our team is built differently than San Fran?

I saw more potential in TJoke than I am seeing in Ponder. He had bad WRs too. He had bad play calling too. He had a bad OL too. It is just not there.

PurplePowerPunch
11-25-2012, 04:25 PM
Ponder is not the future.

This is very true. There were a couple of plays that Ponder could've pulled the ball down and ran. I think Webb is the spark that we need in this offense. It worked for SF. Why not us?

30whales
11-25-2012, 04:26 PM
I respectfully disagree with the Ponder is terrible comment. I honestly don't know what else he could have done. He can't throw it to himself. (Well, OK he can, but we saw how well that worked out...) He was 22/43 with 9 drops. He needs SOME help. I did like that he is putting some zip on the ball now - but those long passes were not on target either.

I seriously hated the game plan today. I just don't understand why we would try to pass twice as often as run against this team. We were trying to replicate what San Fran did? Doesn't Musgrave understand that our team is built differently than San Fran?

You're right. I am just very frustrated with him. I was at the game against the Lions two weeks ago and I was feeling optimistic about him and then this week and it just seemed like a struggle but like you said there was nine drops which is unacceptable. There is just something about Ponder that I just don't see an NFL quarterback. I do not think that he will ever be a Pro Bowler but if he has a successful NFL career it will be because he will be a game manager and not much more.

iowa
11-25-2012, 04:30 PM
Turnovers, dropped balls, blocked field goal, horrible P.I. call in the end zone, sketchy play calling all added up to a typical visit to Soldier Field.

marstc09
11-25-2012, 04:33 PM
Ponder is not the future.

This is very true. There were a couple of plays that Ponder could've pulled the ball down and ran. I think Webb is the spark that we need in this offense. It worked for SF. Why not us?

Careful. A certain thread starter will think you mean he is the answer to all our problems. I would like to see Webb play. Why not create some competition. It might wake Ponder up.

Reignman
11-25-2012, 04:39 PM
2 weeks to prepare and this is how we look? Someone tell me again why we should keep Frazier and co? And the Bears are so far down on the offensive line depth chart I think I saw Gould playing guard a time or 2, but our overrated DL only touched Cutler once the entire game. Pathetic!

Again our D couldn't come up with a stop on 3rd down and again our O couldn't convert on 3rd down. We get a gift to start the game and we go 3 n out and have to kick a FG. Good job! Way to get the suck fest off to a great start. Then AP fumbles and unlike us, the Bears stick it in the EZ.

And who didn't drop at least 2 passes today? Ponder is struggling bad enough as it is, we don't need a bad case of the dropsies too. Hell even AP put the ball on the turf twice. Walsh gets a chip shot blocked. The Vikes are good at 1 thing, when they decide to stink up a game, they really stink it up.

And it wouldn't be a proper Viking post game discussion without mentioning how the refs fucked us over. Maybe Forte was down, but here's why I had a problem with it ... 1) it was ruled a fumble on the field, 2) they reviewd it and upheld the call on the field the first time, 3) Lovey Smith talked the refs into reviewing it a 2nd time, 4) there was inconclusive video evidence to overturn the call on the field and yet they overturned it anyway .... that all adds up to be BULLSHIT! And PI on AW? Not only did Marshall push off but AW didn't even touch him. I miss the replacement refs, at least the bad calls went our way once in awhile.

snowinapril
11-25-2012, 04:40 PM
I respectfully disagree with the Ponder is terrible comment. I honestly don't know what else he could have done. He can't throw it to himself. (Well, OK he can, but we saw how well that worked out...) He was 22/43 with 9 drops. He needs SOME help. I did like that he is putting some zip on the ball now - but those long passes were not on target either.

I seriously hated the game plan today. I just don't understand why we would try to pass twice as often as run against this team. We were trying to replicate what San Fran did? Doesn't Musgrave understand that our team is built differently than San Fran?

I wouldn't say terrible, but I would say that he doesn't read the entire field. There are guys open down field at times that he doesn't even see. He also doesn't step into his throws.

With that said, the offensive line is not giving him enough time to confidently stand in the pocket and step into throws.

The Bears (in the first half) were stunting on where Ponder would be in the pocket, why didn't we move the pocket.

This is going to be against popular opinion, but last year was the time to sell Jared Allen. That defensive line didn't bet much pressure on Cutler. Cutler did a good job of avoiding the little bit of pressure we had.

If only we would have gotten that Defensive TD. I think it was called correctly, his knees were down. That TD would have gave us some momentum to build on.

Turnovers killed us. To beat the Bears, you must protect the football.

12purplepride28
11-25-2012, 04:53 PM
People clamoring for Webb amaze me. He is not an NFL QB. The only times he has looked good is when he is coming off the bench in the 3rd or 4th quarter and the D is tired and not prepared for him at all. We have seen games from Ponder that we have never seen from Webb or TJack as the starters. For christ's sake mars, TJ's best game that 3 td game against ARI, in his WHOLE CAREER. I can't believe how impatient people are with Ponder. He has a little over a year and is playing with an absolutely garbage WR corp. The real problem is Musgrave and his shitty playcalling.

I knew we would lose this game and I knew that Jared Allen would have a bad game. It was just set up for us to do awful. Coming out of a bye against a team with the worst OL in the game that is just coming off getting their QB murdered. No way we could take advantage.

How many times have we watched a game and come here to proclaim Ponder the future? He has had some damn fine games considering what he's working with. He can't do anything about Simpson dropping balls and AP fumbling. He's far from perfect and not a pro bowler yet, but giving up on him is just retarded. Switching to Webb for the hell of it is not the answer.

Jereamiah
11-25-2012, 04:56 PM
I'm still on the "Frazier and Musgrave are toolbags" kick. But damn...Ponder's default, toss-up gifts to the "D" have to stop. Jerome...CATCH THE BALL. Why the pass play calls at the end of the 1st half? Why? It's like a foreign-language student, bless his heart, that gets the sentence sequence all out of whack. Example: "Hey Lars, those smokin hot beautiful girls we should buy a drink to, aye." That's what the 'Vikes play calling looks like to me. Just...Not right. The team is down, bad, deep in their own territory, a few minutes left in the 1st, and they call passing plays? RUN THE BALL. But whatever. Next week it will look like Landry is calling the plays and Montana is behind center. It's hit or miss. How's about some consistency? That's the hallmark of good coaching, not to mention, play on the field.

snowinapril
11-25-2012, 04:57 PM
Quote Originally Posted by VikeCane305 View Post

Quote Originally Posted by marstc09 View Post
Ponder is not the future.

This is very true. There were a couple of plays that Ponder could've pulled the ball down and ran. I think Webb is the spark that we need in this offense. It worked for SF. Why not us?


Careful. A certain thread starter will think you mean he is the answer to all our problems. I would like to see Webb play. Why not create some competition. It might wake Ponder up.

Kaepernick is more of a QB than Webb. JMHO!

What is the reason for starting Webb, long term? If you are going to start Webb, what is there to accomplish? Neither Ponder or Webb are going to be Brees or Manning. But they could be a top ten QB at the lower end. I think that Ponder has the best chance of the two.

12purplepride28
11-25-2012, 04:58 PM
I wouldn't say terrible, but I would say that he doesn't read the entire field. There are guys open down field at times that he doesn't even see. He also doesn't step into his throws.

With that said, the offensive line is not giving him enough time to confidently stand in the pocket and step into throws.

The Bears (in the first half) were stunting on where Ponder would be in the pocket, why didn't we move the pocket.

This is going to be against popular opinion, but last year was the time to sell Jared Allen. That defensive line didn't bet much pressure on Cutler. Cutler did a good job of avoiding the little bit of pressure we had.

If only we would have gotten that Defensive TD. I think it was called correctly, his knees were down. That TD would have gave us some momentum to build on.

I agree with you on selling JA high. He's my all time favorite Viking but this is a business. The only problem with trading him for a 2nd or 1st if we could get it is that it would hurt our locker room a lot considering his leadership and chemistry with all the players.

acman1
11-25-2012, 05:04 PM
Why did they even decide to go for it on the 4th and 2 at the start of the 4th quarter? It was a 3 score game at the time...

Jereamiah
11-25-2012, 05:07 PM
Also, 2nd LT Yokely, The better team won today. I offer congratulations on your teams victory.
With humble regard and full knowledge of your genius and venerable smartitude.

Sincerely,
SGT Jereamiah Brooks Pemberton.
3/21 IN REGT "GIMLETS."

singersp
11-25-2012, 05:10 PM
Negatives:
* 9 drops this game. Jesus.
* Bears have a top 10 passing D, but have been giving up a lot on the ground, especially in the last four weeks. We have the top rusher in the NFL and one of the worst passing attacks. So of course we run the ball right? No. We pass 43 times and run 20.
* They were 10/14 on third downs before heading in to garbage time.
* Our DL got ZERo sacks and only 2 pressures against a patchwork OL
* Refs manage to screw us on the PI call in the endzone, and then review a play TWICE to take a TD away from us.

I'd certainly add the 3 turnovers as negatives. Nothing positive about those. 2 by AD & 1 by Ponder that led to 14 points Bears, although they'll charge one of those fumbles to Ponder because it happened on the exchange.

Of the 9 drops (not sure if there were quite 9 catchable drops), how many were made by veterans & how many by 1st & 2nd year players? I don't believe Wright could have come down in bounds with the one in the back corner of the endzone.

The real notable ones were made by Simpson. Carlson has already proven to be a wasted pickup by Spielman. Simpson is fast becoming one too, if not already there. Was it 4 drops for him, 1 for Carlson?

3rd down & long & we are still mostly throwing passes way short of the first down marker.

21 games under his belt & it looks like we have a bonafide bubble & 5 yard passing franchise QB. Beyond 10 yards, far too many are off target. There's a reason he ranks last in explosive passes from a QB & it's not solely because of lack of a WR or playcalling. Heck, every starting QB has him beat including this years starting rookie QB's & last years starting QB class. Today his average gain per passing play was 3.7 yards with YAC included.

Frazier drops the challenge flag on that Mistral Raymond TD & we eat a 15 yard penalty. We get 7 points because the play becomes un-reviewable & the Bears never get to kick the FG.

Kluwe is dropping way down the list from being one of the leagues best punters.

6 for 16 on 3rd down conversions. Unsatisfactory!




Positives:
* Wright is looking like he has potential.
* ... uh .... um ... shit

Wright earned a starting role. Simpson should be sitting. As I said before, 1 great catch & a somersault into the endzone doesn't mean he's a great WR. He had a great catch earlier in the season, but has had far too many drops.

We succeeded in temporarily knocking GB out of the top spot with our play today, if only for a few hours.

AD still had 108 yards rushing on 18 carries despite the 2 fumbles.

Smith is still having an impressive year for a rookie.

We are another game closer to having some new coaches next year.

snowinapril
11-25-2012, 05:11 PM
43 Pass attempts!

I am pretty sure that was not part of the game plan.

Turnovers then playing from behind changed the game plan.

With that said, the Viking's defense couldn't stop Cutler and Marshall. They took what we gave them, the underneath passes. I wonder how many 3rd down conversions Marshall was responsible for.

The Bears beat us in almost every facet of the game.

12purplepride28
11-25-2012, 05:16 PM
Did we seriously get called for a penalty on challenging a td? THIS WAS JUST THE MAJOR HEADLINE OF THE WHOLE DAMN WEEK!

MaxVike
11-25-2012, 05:19 PM
Sadly, I predicted a 24-9 loss. Not much good out of that one.

9 dropped passes, seriously?:beatupchickensmall:... Simpson, 0 for 3...all perfectly thrown passes dropped. Burton, 0 for 1...a perfectly thrown ball dropped. I forget the other one, I think it was Wright or Jenkins. Three of the aforementioned will, or better, be gone soon. Wright shows some promise.

I had low expectations for that game, but, the Vikes managed to under deliver against them. I'm growing weary watching wide receivers everywhere making plays.

Oh yeah, can't Kluhe kick anymore? WTF?

snowinapril
11-25-2012, 05:21 PM
Did we seriously get called for a penalty on challenging a td? THIS WAS JUST THE MAJOR HEADLINE OF THE WHOLE DAMN WEEK!

No, singer was just saying that we could have kept them from reviewing the play in the booth.

Not sure that would have worked but it would have been worth a try.

From the camera angles, it was difficult to see enough evidence to over turn the call. You had to assume that the ball came out after his knees were down. I think he was down, but I had to assume that.

singersp
11-25-2012, 05:29 PM
For christ's sake mars, TJ's best game that 3 td game against ARI, in his WHOLE CAREER. I can't believe how impatient people are with Ponder. He has a little over a year and is playing with an absolutely garbage WR corp.

You do realize, in Mars' defense, that Ponder has started more games for the Vikings than TJ has. How many great games has Ponder had again where he's taken the team on his back & led us to victory on his arm? Ponder has only had one 3 TD game also & we lost the game.

I don't think Ponder is terrible, but I don't believe he's the answer at this point either. There are games, much like today, where we are down 3 scores & need to score quickly. Some people aren't happy that we didn't pound the ball more, but when time is of the essence, clock eating, long drawn out rushing attacks are not going to leave us with enough time to catch up & go ahead. With Ponder, we just can't move the ball thru the air consistently enough & when we need too to make up points.

I understand there were 8 or 9 drops today, but there were also worm shakers & other way off passes by Ponder too. You can't attribute your entire poor passing game solely on the drops. They happen on every team. How many drops did Cutler experience today from his receivers? Why isn't that posted?

With that said though, when you can single out 1 player who consistently drops passes *cough* Simpson, it's time to let him ride the pine. Troy Williamson dropped several passes, but many of those were deep passes & bombs from the QB. Simpson has been dropping some routine short passes.

snowinapril
11-25-2012, 05:29 PM
Frazier drops the challenge flag on that Mistral Raymond TD & we eat a 15 yard penalty. We get 7 points because the play becomes un-reviewable & the Bears never get to kick the FG.


Interesting thought.

I heard in the last few days that the NFL is thinking about that rule and will possibly change it. Maybe just for this reason.

I don't know why the ref can't just hand the flag back and say you can't challenge. To penalize someone for throwing the flag seems punitive. Punitive rule don't promote justice and go against the spirit of the replay in the first place.

thorshammer
11-25-2012, 05:45 PM
Another disappointing game for sure. I do wonder why we always seem unprepared to play these critical games. Our coaches seem to lack the ability to get our guys up for this type of game. We made some key mistakes again. I can't blame it on Ponder I still think he deserves more time. Our receivers need to catch the ball. If we win a couple more games we still will have done better than any of us thought we would. Ups and downs of a young team ... kind of expected.

Chazz
11-25-2012, 05:45 PM
It's clear enough to me at this point that we need to clear out all the coaches on this team. Well coached teams play well and win most coming off a bye regardless if they are outmatched or not. We didn't put up a good effort, hell, we didn't even put up any effort.

We are looking to be in a bit of a conundrum. Ponder isn't looking like he is the long term answer, but with our piss poor WR play and underwhelming OL play it's hard to say for sure. I think we are forced to go after play-making WR's, DT, and MLB and Ponder getting another year by default. Wright needs to be a full time starter for us the remainder of the year...he's the best guy we have out there atm.

Bottom line, we will never be serious contenders until we clean out the stench of the Childress era coaching and start fresh.

I like what Speilman did in his first year in full control, so let him go out and find our next coach, put together another fine draft and maybe, just maybe we can finally get this thing turned around.

singersp
11-25-2012, 05:50 PM
This is very true. There were a couple of plays that Ponder could've pulled the ball down and ran. I think Webb is the spark that we need in this offense. It worked for SF. Why not us?

It worked for the 49ers for 1 game. I thought the whole QB controversy was overrated & unnecessary. We'll find out. It worked out for them once before, but that doesn't guarantee it'll happen again.

Not to many years ago, Cassell had a great game when Brady went down. He's not exactly impressing now.

Matt Flynn had a 480 yard 6 TD game which prompted the Seahawks to throw big money at him. He's currently riding the pine behind a rookie draft pick.

TheAnimal93
11-25-2012, 05:53 PM
The game was lost when they forgot to hand the ball off to Peterson when they went down 18-3. Played right into their hands. game over.

singersp
11-25-2012, 06:03 PM
Interesting thought.

I heard in the last few days that the NFL is thinking about that rule and will possibly change it. Maybe just for this reason.

I don't know why the ref can't just hand the flag back and say you can't challenge. To penalize someone for throwing the flag seems punitive. Punitive rule don't promote justice and go against the spirit of the replay in the first place.

The claim was that since all TD's are reviewed, tossing a challenge flag further delays the game. With the clock already stopped for the review, not sure how it adds more time unless the flag is tossed after the initial review is announced.

Either way, the rule makes the play unreviewable if a coach challenges it. I'd like to see if it pertains only to the coach that the play would go against.

Had he done it though & we got away with it based on a loop-hole in the rule, Lovey Smith would have done the same thing on the play that first appeared to be an INT thrown by Ponder & a long return, but the ball had actually hit the ground first.

gamecocksbaseball31
11-25-2012, 06:05 PM
Sean Payton, anyone?

gamecocksbaseball31
11-25-2012, 06:11 PM
The one positive that comes out of today is both Seattle and Tampa Bay lost. The Vikings are still right in the hunt for a wild card spot. Yes it is going to be difficult to get in with our schedule.

Seattle will probably lose 2 of their final 5.
Tampa should lose 3 of their final 5.

The Vikes need to finish one game ahead of Seattle to get in. UNLESS the Packers end up going on a skid losing two to us and hopefully NYG tonight we could sneak in that way.

singersp
11-25-2012, 06:11 PM
Careful. A certain thread starter will think you mean he is the answer to all our problems. I would like to see Webb play. Why not create some competition. It might wake Ponder up.


Not sure which "thread starter" your referring to, but that certainly wouldn't be my choice.

You let Ponder finish the year, see how he does & move on with or without him. Same thing we should have done the last time.

Keeping him on the bench & letting Webb play the remainder of the year doesn't give you anymore insight on whether or not he [Ponder will pan out] that comes from playing. Keeping him on the roster an extra year or two without letting him start doesn't get you closer to the answer either.

snowinapril
11-25-2012, 06:17 PM
Had he done it though & we got away with it based on a loop-hole in the rule, Lovey Smith would have done the same thing on the play that first appeared to be an INT thrown by Ponder & a long return, but the ball had actually hit the ground first.

That wasn't a scoring play though. I think it only applies to scoring plays, right?

marshallvike
11-25-2012, 06:22 PM
43 Pass attempts!

I am pretty sure that was not part of the game plan.

Turnovers then playing from behind changed the game plan.

With that said, the Viking's defense couldn't stop Cutler and Marshall. They took what we gave them, the underneath passes. I wonder how many 3rd down conversions Marshall was responsible for.

The Bears beat us in almost every facet of the game.

I was at the game. It was embarrassing getting only one sack against that piss poor offensive line. They are one of the worst in the NFL and they even had backups to the bad starters playing and we barely got a whiff of Cutler. I was disgusted with our uninspired play, both on offense and defense. 1 freakin sack. I still can't believe it.

singersp
11-25-2012, 06:32 PM
Another disappointing game for sure. I do wonder why we always seem unprepared to play these critical games. Our coaches seem to lack the ability to get our guys up for this type of game. We made some key mistakes again. I can't blame it on Ponder I still think he deserves more time. Our receivers need to catch the ball. If we win a couple more games we still will have done better than any of us thought we would. Ups and downs of a young team ... kind of expected.

There's that ups & downs of a young team again.

Of all the mistakes made today, how many would you say were made by our 1st & 2nd year players? How many by our veterans?

People don't want to blame Ponder, so that leaves Rudolph, Fusco, Kalil, Smith & Jefferson as starters to blame (I may have missed a young 1 or 2 that got play time). I know Jefferson missed a few tackles, but Winfield & Greenway did as well. Our DL didn't get enough pressure & the youngest starter on the DL is Guion with 5 years experience, but 3 yr. Griffen got some play too.

Rudolph, I believe may have dropped a pass, but his play helped us, not hindered us. Kalil had a good game too. AD had 2 fumbles, but he has 6 years experience. Fusco, perhaps, but I don't think he was the only one on the front line letting defenders thru.

Perhaps it's Simpson who's the young guy to blame with all his drops? On 2nd thought he has 5 years experience.

singersp
11-25-2012, 06:33 PM
That wasn't a scoring play though. I think it only applies to scoring plays, right?

Yep, you'd be right. Somehow though it would have bit us in the ass had we gotten away with it, but I'd bet it would have expedited getting the rule changed.

singersp
11-25-2012, 06:58 PM
It's clear enough to me at this point that we need to clear out all the coaches on this team. Well coached teams play well and win most coming off a bye regardless if they are outmatched or not. We didn't put up a good effort, hell, we didn't even put up any effort.

I like what Speilman did in his first year in full control, so let him go out and find our next coach, put together another fine draft and maybe, just maybe we can finally get this thing turned around.

Somewhere on our staff we have a coach with no arms that needs to go. He must be the one teaching our players to tackle by simply knocking them off their feet without wrapping them up. I see far too much of that by not only the young players, but veterans as well.

I believe I had heard some years back that wrapping up a player when tackling caused more injuries to the defender than trying to bowl him over. Not sure if there is any validity to that.

As far as Spielman, he had a decent draft, but lets not forget we also have a scouting team working with Spielman on our draft picks.

Outside of the draft, not sure how good Spielman is. He has yet to select any coaches & his 2 biggest FA acquisitions, Carlson & Simpson appear to both be busts.

FA acquisitions this year;

RB Jordan Todman Re-signed
FB Jerome Felton Signed
WR Devin Aromashodu Re-signed
WR Greg Childs Re-signed
WR Jerome Simpson Signed
WR Chris Summers
TE John Carlson Signed
OT Troy Kropog Signed
OT Kevin Murphy Re-signed
OT Geoffrey Schwartz Signed
OG Mark Asper Signed
OG Tyler Holmes Signed
DL Chase Baker Re-signed
DL Fred Evans Re-signed
DL Letroy Guion Re-signed
LB Erin Henderson Re-signed
LB Marvin Mitchell Signed
CB Bobby Felder Re-signed
CB Nick Taylor Re-signed

You be the judge on how those signings panned out.

Read more: KFFL - 2012 NFL Free Agents (http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?option=Signed+by+Team&y=2012#ixzz2DHX0YuZO)

ConnecticutViking
11-25-2012, 07:04 PM
3rd and 2!

You have two plays to get two yards! Down by three scores! What should coach do?

A. Run a play then kick a field goal? You need one eventually, unless you believe you will hold them and convert two 2 pt. conversions.

B. Run AD twice? He's your best option, he is getting positive yards, your passing game is shit, and the Bears Run defense is weak. Bears pass D is their strength.

C. Run AD once? See A and B above

D. Throw two passes, even though your QB is under pressure, your O-line is getting beat, your QB has no accuracy, the Bears pass D is their strength, and your receivers have been dropping balls all day.

singersp
11-25-2012, 07:06 PM
I was at the game. It was embarrassing getting only one sack against that piss poor offensive line. They are one of the worst in the NFL and they even had backups to the bad starters playing and we barely got a whiff of Cutler. I was disgusted with our uninspired play, both on offense and defense. 1 freakin sack. I still can't believe it.

Cutler has been sacked behind that piss poor OL as you call it only twice more than Ponder has behind ours. We have no back ups or 3rd stringers starting on ours.

With the patchwork OL players that Tice has to work with, he's not doing to bad considering.

STCLOUDSAYSGOVIKES
11-25-2012, 07:19 PM
I was so disgusted, at one time i dozed off and another i simply turned the channel.
The Defense wasn't tackling at all really.
Ponder threw an interception
AP coughed it up twice
Receivers not catching the ball

I'm as positive a person as there is on this site, but i was embarrassed to watch it.
They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Maybe we all should be committed to an insane asylum.

singersp
11-25-2012, 07:31 PM
The game was lost when they forgot to hand the ball off to Peterson when they went down 18-3. Played right into their hands. game over.

The problem isn't we forgot to handoff to AD. The problem is we don't have a consistently good passing game to compliment the run game.

The fact that so many people here believe that AD is our biggest playmaker & should get the ball damn near every time should send off sirens & red lights that our QB/passing game are flawed.

If we can't pass, game over. We aren't going to win a bunch of games just pounding the rock & abandoning our passing game. We have to have a good balance of both. Two of AD's top 4 games which netted 3 of his 7 TD's came with 17 carries & 15 carries. 5 of his 7 TD's came in games with 17 carries or less.

singersp
11-25-2012, 07:38 PM
I was so disgusted, at one time i dozed off and another i simply turned the channel.
The Defense wasn't tackling at all really.
Ponder threw an interception
AP coughed it up twice
Receivers not catching the ball

I'm as positive a person as there is on this site, but i was embarrassed to watch it.
They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Maybe we all should be committed to an insane asylum.


Thought I'd remind you.......


Frankie says Relax.


It's only football.


Some of you need to take a step back and reassess your life. This is only a game. I love the Vikings but I have liver disease, and am looking at getting a new liver in the next 5-6 months. That is why I take everything in stride.


Relax, it's only football.

Chazz
11-25-2012, 07:40 PM
Somewhere on our staff we have a coach with no arms that needs to go. He must be the one teaching our players to tackle by simply knocking them off their feet without wrapping them up. I see far too much of that by not only the young players, but veterans as well.

I believe I had heard some years back that wrapping up a player when tackling caused more injuries to the defender than trying to bowl him over. Not sure if there is any validity to that.

As far as Spielman, he had a decent draft, but lets not forget we also have a scouting team working with Spielman on our draft picks.

Outside of the draft, not sure how good Spielman is. He has yet to select any coaches & his 2 biggest FA acquisitions, Carlson & Simpson appear to both be busts.

FA acquisitions this year;

RB Jordan Todman Re-signed
FB Jerome Felton Signed
WR Devin Aromashodu Re-signed
WR Greg Childs Re-signed
WR Jerome Simpson Signed
WR Chris Summers
TE John Carlson Signed
OT Troy Kropog Signed
OT Kevin Murphy Re-signed
OT Geoffrey Schwartz Signed
OG Mark Asper Signed
OG Tyler Holmes Signed
DL Chase Baker Re-signed
DL Fred Evans Re-signed
DL Letroy Guion Re-signed
LB Erin Henderson Re-signed
LB Marvin Mitchell Signed
CB Bobby Felder Re-signed
CB Nick Taylor Re-signed

You be the judge on how those signings panned out.

Read more: KFFL - 2012 NFL Free Agents (http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?option=Signed+by+Team&y=2012#ixzz2DHX0YuZO)

Of course he has scouts...every GM has that. Its his job to make the best of that information, and in his first year in control he had an excellent draft. To hate on him for signing Carlson and Simpson is foolish IMO. Carlson has been an obvious bust thus far. Simpson was a one year flyer on a MAJOR need for us and not a bad signing in my estimation. So he didn't work out, that's why he was only given a one year deal.

I won't judge Speilman on FA acquisitions or lack there of as it is my belief that you build a team through the draft and use FA for depth and to occasionally fill a needed hole.

And yes, our coaches are absolutely unable to develop talent and teach success. That's why I say we should scrap them all and start over. Let Speilman make the hires and then we will be able to judge his abilities as a GM or lack there of.

thorshammer
11-25-2012, 07:41 PM
There's that ups & downs of a young team again.

Of all the mistakes made today, how many would you say were made by our 1st & 2nd year players? How many by our veterans?

People don't want to blame Ponder, so that leaves Rudolph, Fusco, Kalil, Smith & Jefferson as starters to blame (I may have missed a young 1 or 2 that got play time). I know Jefferson missed a few tackles, but Winfield & Greenway did as well. Our DL didn't get enough pressure & the youngest starter on the DL is Guion with 5 years experience, but 3 yr. Griffen got some play too.

Rudolph, I believe may have dropped a pass, but his play helped us, not hindered us. Kalil had a good game too. AD had 2 fumbles, but he has 6 years experience. Fusco, perhaps, but I don't think he was the only one on the front line letting defenders thru.

Perhaps it's Simpson who's the young guy to blame with all his drops? On 2nd thought he has 5 years experience.
Yeah. I guess Ponder in his second yr. should be doing much better with all the change that has happened to this team in the last two yrs. I guess that change hasn't impacted the entire team new guys getting used to ea. other as well as vets adjusting to all the new guys. I guess we should be a playoff team this yr. Hell no one thought we'd be where we are. We made mistakes. It happens. If you didn't think there would be a couple of these games I am surprised.

jargomcfargo
11-25-2012, 08:34 PM
3rd and 2!

You have two plays to get two yards! Down by three scores! What should coach do?

A. Run a play then kick a field goal? You need one eventually, unless you believe you will hold them and convert two 2 pt. conversions.

B. Run AD twice? He's your best option, he is getting positive yards, your passing game is shit, and the Bears Run defense is weak. Bears pass D is their strength.

C. Run AD once? See A and B above

D. Throw two passes, even though your QB is under pressure, your O-line is getting beat, your QB has no accuracy, the Bears pass D is their strength, and your receivers have been dropping balls all day.
I will forever call for Musgrave to be fired after that act of total lunacy. Tom Pelissaro says Musgrave is intelligent and sometimes tries to be too cute, I say he is an idiot that stops his teams momentum as much as the defense does, if not more.
This team has been lousey in the red zone all year. There have been at least three games where the offense drove down the field, then stopped doing what was successful when they reached the red zone.
The defense didn't stop the Vikings; Musgrave did.
I have serious doubts about Ponder, but not about Musgrave. Time for him to go.

Ranger
11-25-2012, 08:38 PM
2nd Year
320/526 60.8% 3284yrds. 205.3 per game 6.2ypp 17td 16int 76.9qbr


3rd Year
205/358 57.6% 2108yrds. 191.6 per game 5.9ypp 11td 15int 67.5qbr


Keep him or get rid of him?

Mr Anderson
11-25-2012, 08:57 PM
Let 'em play on D. Man up. No more full speed wide receivers running a post past a linebacker dropping in zone, no 230 WRs or 260 TEs making easy catches in front of a 190lb defensive back and breaking the tackle. This shit doesn't work. QBs are too quick, too smart and have too many targets on the field for a 4 man rush to consistently get to them.

Musgrave needs to get out of his own head. If Peterson's running great, hand the ball to him on 2nd and 3 don't throw him a stupid shovel pass so he has to turn his back to the line of scrimmage and give up his biggest strength, vision.

They're over-coaching. Let the players play physical, man-on-man matchups, we'd be better off.

Vikefan05
11-25-2012, 10:38 PM
Another disappointing game for sure. I do wonder why we always seem unprepared to play these critical games. Our coaches seem to lack the ability to get our guys up for this type of game. We made some key mistakes again. I can't blame it on Ponder I still think he deserves more time. Our receivers need to catch the ball. If we win a couple more games we still will have done better than any of us thought we would. Ups and downs of a young team ... kind of expected.

I concur! We're better than most of us expected, and it has been fun watching the wins.

marstc09
11-25-2012, 11:54 PM
Careful. A certain thread starter will think you mean he is the answer to all our problems. I would like to see Webb play. Why not create some competition. It might wake Ponder up.


Not sure which "thread starter" your referring to, but that certainly wouldn't be my choice.

You let Ponder finish the year, see how he does & move on with or without him. Same thing we should have done the last time.

Keeping him on the bench & letting Webb play the remainder of the year doesn't give you anymore insight on whether or not he [Ponder will pan out] that comes from playing. Keeping him on the roster an extra year or two without letting him start doesn't get you closer to the answer either.

Not you bud. I agree we should finish the year with Ponder but I am just frustrated with him. Peterson just had 5 100+ yard games in a row. The first time in his career. I am sick of the talk about Ponder not getting help. TJoke had bad WRs, bad OL, bad coaching, etc. Enough of the excuses.

marstc09
11-26-2012, 12:05 AM
The game was lost when they forgot to hand the ball off to Peterson when they went down 18-3. Played right into their hands. game over.

The problem isn't we forgot to handoff to AD. The problem is we don't have a consistently good passing game to compliment the run game.

The fact that so many people here believe that AD is our biggest playmaker & should get the ball damn near every time should send off sirens & red lights that our QB/passing game are flawed.

If we can't pass, game over. We aren't going to win a bunch of games just pounding the rock & abandoning our passing game. We have to have a good balance of both. Two of AD's top 4 games which netted 3 of his 7 TD's came with 17 carries & 15 carries. 5 of his 7 TD's came in games with 17 carries or less.

Thank you! I tried telling the thread starter that today but all I got was that Ponder does not play defense. Quite odd.

TheAnimal93
11-26-2012, 02:42 AM
The problem isn't we forgot to handoff to AD. The problem is we don't have a consistently good passing game to compliment the run game.

The fact that so many people here believe that AD is our biggest playmaker & should get the ball damn near every time should send off sirens & red lights that our QB/passing game are flawed.

If we can't pass, game over. We aren't going to win a bunch of games just pounding the rock & abandoning our passing game. We have to have a good balance of both. Two of AD's top 4 games which netted 3 of his 7 TD's came with 17 carries & 15 carries. 5 of his 7 TD's came in games with 17 carries or less.
I should have elaborated and said it made the Vikings one dimensional at that point in the game. It was no reason to panic, it was still early in the game and then they decided that Ponder should sling the ball all over. The WR's did not help out like they should have and Musgrave's lack of imagination, the lack of feel for the ebb and flow of a game, and the lack of execution on the Oline is terrible. All a recipe for disaster. I wasnt implying to ground and pound only.

snowinapril
11-26-2012, 03:14 AM
There's that ups & downs of a young team again.

Of all the mistakes made today, how many would you say were made by our 1st & 2nd year players? How many by our veterans?

People don't want to blame Ponder, so that leaves Rudolph, Fusco, Kalil, Smith & Jefferson as starters to blame (I may have missed a young 1 or 2 that got play time). I know Jefferson missed a few tackles, but Winfield & Greenway did as well. Our DL didn't get enough pressure & the youngest starter on the DL is Guion with 5 years experience, but 3 yr. Griffen got some play too.

Rudolph, I believe may have dropped a pass, but his play helped us, not hindered us. Kalil had a good game too. AD had 2 fumbles, but he has 6 years experience. Fusco, perhaps, but I don't think he was the only one on the front line letting defenders thru.

Perhaps it's Simpson who's the young guy to blame with all his drops? On 2nd thought he has 5 years experience.

Let's not use the word a "young team."

Let's clarify this it isn't about young and old and it isn't about firing everyone.

We are a team that is rebuilding. We are not elite so we are building. Every team is in a constant state of building, we are just further behind the Bears, Packers, Atlanta, Giants, Niners and a handful of other teams out there. (At least we beat the motor city kitties twice)

I think that because we got off to a quick start everyone is expecting us to be a winning team. We were world beater when we beat the 49ers and we were who they thought we were when we got beat by the Colts. We are not elite or anywhere close to that. I am not saying anyone said we were, but it seems like there are expectations like we are. If we make the playoffs like this, we are a one and done team. I am still looking for a .500 finish. If we could squeak out a home win against the Bears and the Packers, we might have a chance for the wild card, but where would that get us. It gives us hope that we are better than we might be. It also gives us a chance at that prize we all have been waiting for, a Super Bowl victory. That is why we endure games like today, we hope for a chance.

MulletMullitia
11-26-2012, 03:20 AM
I'd love to be the guinea pig for the Chip Kelly offense. Percy Harvin would be the best player in the NFL. And Ponder is plenty good enough to run the QB part. All he has to do is manage the game. Put the ball in the hands of our playmakers in no huddle hurry up style. Nobody would be a better fit than the Vikings. We wouldn't even have to blow up the team.

Mark_The_Viking
11-26-2012, 03:37 AM
First order of business this morning is "tackling 101" Because we have forgotten how to achieve the high art of grabbing an opposing player and stopping him from running riot.

That game was an embarrasment of missed tackles, missed passes, pathetic coaching, and other issues too numerous to mention. As for the QB controversy, I think Ponder should sit!

Not because I hate him or his play, he is what he is an average QB with not much of a WR corp to play with, but because we need to find out what is behind him and how that will effect our draft going forward. imho the draft needs to consider if either a lights out WR or a franchise QB is where we put all our money next year but it has to be one or the other.

Simpson can sit permanent as far as I'm concerned. he has shown nothing to make me believe he can be a game changer, Wright is a keeper and someone needs to ask our defensive ends if they mixed up their calendars and they think this is pre-season.

NordicNed
11-26-2012, 06:45 AM
i think it's only the second time in my life that i turned the game off, near the middle of the fourth quarter. Took my son fishing instead of watching the outcome. oh, how did we do fishing you ask? About as good a job as our WR's did holding onto passes, put it this way, came home and said, Honey, you better put that pork in the oven.....

thorshammer
11-26-2012, 06:50 AM
i think it's only the second time in my life that i turned the game off, near the middle of the fourth quarter. Took my son fishing instead of watching the outcome. oh, how did we do fishing you ask? About as good a job as our WR's did holding onto passes, put it this way, came home and said, Honey, you better put that pork in the oven.....
Hey at least we didn't look as bad as the Pukers ....

thorshammer
11-26-2012, 06:53 AM
Let's not use the word a "young team."

Let's clarify this it isn't about young and old and it isn't about firing everyone.

We are a team that is rebuilding. We are not elite so we are building. Every team is in a constant state of building, we are just further behind the Bears, Packers, Atlanta, Giants, Niners and a handful of other teams out there. (At least we beat the motor city kitties twice)

I think that because we got off to a quick start everyone is expecting us to be a winning team. We were world beater when we beat the 49ers and we were who they thought we were when we got beat by the Colts. We are not elite or anywhere close to that. I am not saying anyone said we were, but it seems like there are expectations like we are. If we make the playoffs like this, we are a one and done team. I am still looking for a .500 finish. If we could squeak out a home win against the Bears and the Packers, we might have a chance for the wild card, but where would that get us. It gives us hope that we are better than we might be. It also gives us a chance at that prize we all have been waiting for, a Super Bowl victory. That is why we endure games like today, we hope for a chance.
Agreed. Well said.

digital420
11-26-2012, 06:57 AM
soldier field.. on the road in a tuff environment, a HUGE game, extra time off to rest up people, plan, and prepare.. the stage was set for a Viking upset, and miracle season to continue being just that.. miracle!!

we didn't execute.. that's pretty much what it all boils down to.

sure you can #!$%# and moan to hand it to AP more, but then why should we even have play action in the playbook? on the td pass. it was play action that got Rudy to open. ALL of the D keyed in on stopping AP.

WRs. when your job is to catch.. you should do ALL you can to catch the ball. if it hits you on the chest.. well for !@#%!%#$ sake..

there was sooo much hype that the bears Oline is garbage, like swiss cheese holes everywhere. really? they did some things to cover that up. quick passes, Cutler got away from some big hits, sacks. we were 1/2 step to late on 5 different passes i saw. the preasure was there, but never enouf to stop the play. congrats to Cutler for sticking in there, making time when he dind't have any, and making his throws.

Oline.. well.. they're like any other part of the team, growing, improving, and making mistakes. there was some dirty plays going on in there. like. DT's knocking away the LT so the DE could get free inside.. that's creativity!! kudos to the bears for doing what they had to to win.

AP.. he is a beast, he is the best, but he cannot do it alone. we NEED to use the playaction.. without it we will be stuck in the kitty land for as many years as we have AP. (this is for all you who second guess when a play doesn't work becuase it wasn't in AP's hands.) what if one of those passing plays worked? the wr caught the pass and we get the 1st, or TD.. you'd be singing a diferent tune.. ok. we didn't execute..

7 other teams have lost to the bears, and some by much larger scores. did we really expect the Vikes, in the 2nd year of a franchise rebuild to be nfc leaders? we probably have the hardest division in the NFC if not the NFL..

we go to GB next, who really do have oline issues, who are without many players, and coming off an embarassing loss. again. on the road, tuff environment.. and here's hoping we execute,

DiGiTaL

singersp
11-26-2012, 07:24 AM
Of course he has scouts...every GM has that. Its his job to make the best of that information, and in his first year in control he had an excellent draft. To hate on him for signing Carlson and Simpson is foolish IMO. Carlson has been an obvious bust thus far. Simpson was a one year flyer on a MAJOR need for us and not a bad signing in my estimation. So he didn't work out, that's why he was only given a one year deal.

I won't judge Speilman on FA acquisitions or lack there of as it is my belief that you build a team through the draft and use FA for depth and to occasionally fill a needed hole.

And yes, our coaches are absolutely unable to develop talent and teach success. That's why I say we should scrap them all and start over. Let Speilman make the hires and then we will be able to judge his abilities as a GM or lack there of.

My belief is that you need to do both, especially when you have holes you can't address in the draft. When you lose a veteran player to FA, typically that player is damn good & you can't always replace those players with a rookie fresh out of the draft. Not every draft pick is going to pan out & if you get 2 or 3 good ones, I think you're doing pretty good, although it's not guaranteed every year.

You also need to retain the good players you have. Those are FA signings too, if you haven't locked them down prior to their rookie contract expiring. If you continually lose your veterans to FA & have to replace then with draft picks that may or may not pan out, then you may have not improved your team.

Even teams like GB, who build thru the draft, have brought in players like Woodson, Saturday & Benson to name a few.

Ideally, IMO, you eventually get to the point where you have damn good backups that can slide right in if you lose the starter to FA or have cap space issues, without greatly impacting the position.

singersp
11-26-2012, 07:44 AM
i think it's only the second time in my life that i turned the game off, near the middle of the fourth quarter. Took my son fishing instead of watching the outcome. oh, how did we do fishing you ask? About as good a job as our WR's did holding onto passes, put it this way, came home and said, Honey, you better put that pork in the oven.....

I didn't realize Margie & David were back state side already. Good to hear & I hope all is going well & you're up & about.

As usual, I watched the game in it's entirety waiting with that glimmer of hope that something would happen & put us back in it.

Purple Floyd
11-26-2012, 08:16 AM
I wonder if Wilf could check google and see if there are any cyber Monday sales on quality NFL GMs that he could pull the trigger on to build this team because it is clear the team today looks much like the team has for probably 8 years now.

If anyone thinks this staff and this roster is somehow going to look different with more time well good luck with that.

kingpin9995
11-26-2012, 09:21 AM
Another disappointing game for sure. I do wonder why we always seem unprepared to play these critical games. Our coaches seem to lack the ability to get our guys up for this type of game. We made some key mistakes again. I can't blame it on Ponder I still think he deserves more time. Our receivers need to catch the ball. If we win a couple more games we still will have done better than any of us thought we would. Ups and downs of a young team ... kind of expected.

My God, it does not take a genius to see that Ponder just does not have the goods. It's all true about him coming out of college.. He's smart, BUT he has a weak arm and cannot make all the throws necessary to succeed at the next level. It's so easy to see that this guy just does not have the arm to be a top notch NFL qb. Musgrave stays away from the middle of the field with Ponder because you see what happens when he goes there. He throws picks or gets guys killed. Watching him is maddening. Every 7 out of 10 drop backs he never lets the ball go on. He rarely throws the ball on time. He's another Chad Pennington but with a weaker arm. I've said all along that if you gave Webb the games Ponder has had to play he'd be much better. Webb is a beast that just needs snaps in game situations. Ponder will never be a successful starting qb in this league. I hoped he would but it's obvious he lacks the NFL arm to be that guy.

purplehelmut
11-26-2012, 10:03 AM
How many times over the past 42 years have I seen this? A big game in which the Vikings have a chance to make a move and get in the division race with a win. But it's outdoors, on grass, on the road against a good division team. And we fall flat on our asses. I spared myself the total humiliation. After the first play sack and a Simpson dropped pass for a sure first down the writing was on the wall. I turned it off before the half. This team is not built to come from behind as we have no big play passing game and our receivers can't catch the ball. I am not impressed with Musgrave at all and would love to see him gone.

Purple Floyd
11-26-2012, 10:44 AM
I can see what guys like Singer are saying about giving Ponder the year to make his case and then deciding after that what to do with him but I would like to add that he is not the only one being evaluated and I think it is only fair to at least give Webb or Hyphenated man a shot with the same group of players to see how the team works with a different trigger man.

The coaches are also evaluating the line, the WR's etc and only having Ponders play determine whether those groups are performing might not give a true test. If we put Webb in there and everything else looks the same then we can know that either it is not all the QB's fault. If we put Webb in there and all of a sudden some of the problems go away and we start to move the ball then we might be more comfortable about some on the roster that don't look real good right now.

At this point i don't think it is going to hurt anything to bring in Webb for a few quarters to see what the team looks like with a different trigger man. I wouldn't just stick him in for a few random plays though. I would want quality time and a decent amount of series to see if things look different.

Marc Nudelman
11-26-2012, 10:53 AM
After 40 yrs of being a Viking fan, I was so thoroughly disgusted that I actually walk away in the 3rd quarter! Never done that before, not even in the Les Steckle era.....I am sick of our various Owners giving us cut-rate training wheel coaches. The last Top Grade Coach we have ever had was Bud Grant for Chrissakes!!! Frazier is a moron, or on the take.....He completly wasted AP, down by 3 scores and he doesnt take the points with a field goal?? And he throws yet again instead of using the leagues best RB...He is either a moron or corrupt.....AP is wasting his talents on this sad excuse of a team...I hope he leaves..he deserves better.

Reignman
11-26-2012, 11:09 AM
At this point i don't think it is going to hurt anything to bring in Webb for a few quarters to see what the team looks like with a different trigger man. I wouldn't just stick him in for a few random plays though. I would want quality time and a decent amount of series to see if things look different.In 5 of the last 6 games Ponder has struggled in the 1st half and into the 3rd quarter. There's no reason why Webb couldn't have come in in relief in some of those games. Not only does Webb excel in those situations but it would have been a great opportunity to find out if the problem is indeed Ponder or the supporting cast while evaluating Webb at the same time. And hell, maybe Ponder riding the bench would light a fire under his ass.

It just seems like an easy solution to me. If you're not sure what the problem is, then you plug in a different piece and see if anything changes, but no, Frazier just keeps going with the same old failed formula and we keep having the same old tired debate. Put Webb in when Ponder struggles and lets end this debate already.

Good grief, you'd think this franchise would learn from it's own mistakes. We just went through this same crap with Childress and Tjoke.

purplehelmut
11-26-2012, 11:11 AM
Marc, got two more years of misery than you! Right about Peterson, we are wasting him. His window is closing. Poor guy is set to be the Vikings' Barry Sanders.

tastywaves
11-26-2012, 11:37 AM
I can see what guys like Singer are saying about giving Ponder the year to make his case and then deciding after that what to do with him but I would like to add that he is not the only one being evaluated and I think it is only fair to at least give Webb or Hyphenated man a shot with the same group of players to see how the team works with a different trigger man.

The coaches are also evaluating the line, the WR's etc and only having Ponders play determine whether those groups are performing might not give a true test. If we put Webb in there and everything else looks the same then we can know that either it is not all the QB's fault. If we put Webb in there and all of a sudden some of the problems go away and we start to move the ball then we might be more comfortable about some on the roster that don't look real good right now.

At this point i don't think it is going to hurt anything to bring in Webb for a few quarters to see what the team looks like with a different trigger man. I wouldn't just stick him in for a few random plays though. I would want quality time and a decent amount of series to see if things look different.

I don't know that putting in Webb for evaluation purposes makes any sense. I think the offense would need to change significantly with him in the game and I don't think it is a long term sustainable approach.

I have no problem however, in putting Webb in games where Ponder and the offense is clearly struggling. He very well could add a spark. That is assuming that winning that particular game is the primary objective.

Ponder had his share of bad throws yesterday and they were very dangerous bad throws (sailing high over the middle of the field). I think he was rattled by the pressure, but he needs to overcome this if he is going to amount to anything. I also think the receivers did him no favors by dropping what seemed a record number of balls. Not used to catching cold footballs, Ponder throwing harder than normal? Simpson especially stunk it up, and might have just determined his fate with this franchise. I would sure like to see our receivers using their hands more to try and catch the ball.

Rudolph seemed to be the guy Ponder was most comfortable with targeting, after him it was Wright. What does that say about the rest of them? Aromawhatever, Jenkins, Burton, Carlson, Simpson all proved to be undependable yesterday.

Hmmm..maybe Musgrave should have ran the ball more??

Purple Floyd
11-26-2012, 11:47 AM
Well I can say that for me at least I would thrilled if the offense was changed significantly. That is part of the point.

tastywaves
11-26-2012, 12:06 PM
Well I can say that for me at least I would thrilled if the offense was changed significantly. That is part of the point.

I highly doubt that is the change you are looking for.

Purple Floyd
11-26-2012, 12:10 PM
I highly doubt that is the change you are looking for.

Well, true. The change I am looking for is a whole new FO from the top down but I have as much faith in that happening as in the Vikings beating the Packers by 40 when they play.

That being said, if you look at my post again I did say that I would also be open to seeing Hyphen Man run the offense for a while to see what happens. Just for the record.

vikesrgreat2
11-26-2012, 12:54 PM
My comments on this loss by the Vikings:

1. Too many drops by our receiving corps. This is especially true for Jerome Simpson. This must be addressed before our next game!

2. The defense allowed the Bears to convert too many first downs. This kept the Chicago drives alive, and allowed the Bears to blow out the Vikings in the first half.

3. Nice game by AD. What would have happened if he would have had 10 more carries in the game?

4. When do we get Percy Harvin back? Why can't Harvin and Wright both start? That would allow us to spread the field, helping our offense with point production. (10 points won't win many games.)

5. Loved the physicality of the Vikings' defense. Five Bears knocked out of the game? My father would have loved it!

6. As fans, we need to remember that the Vikings are 6-5, and are still alive for the playoff race. They need to learn from this loss and fix as much as they can so they can play better against what will be a very upset, angry Green Bay team.

SKOL VIKINGS!

tastywaves
11-26-2012, 01:05 PM
Well, true. The change I am looking for is a whole new FO from the top down but I have as much faith in that happening as in the Vikings beating the Packers by 40 when they play.

That being said, if you look at my post again I did say that I would also be open to seeing Hyphen Man run the offense for a while to see what happens. Just for the record.

Consider it recorded.

McBLT or Hyphen Man probably makes more sense if they think Ponder has hit his ceiling.

TheAnimal93
11-26-2012, 01:47 PM
Sean Payton, anyone?

How about this Greg Roman from SF? I like his playcalling, he knows how to exploit opposing defenses from what I have seen, so far.

Purple Floyd
11-26-2012, 01:57 PM
It looks like Holmgren is a free agent.

C Mac D
11-26-2012, 01:59 PM
As I said from the time Frazier was made HC and Spielman was anointed GM... things won't change until we see an entire new regime in the FO, including new ownership.

Did anyone really think we had a chance against the Bears? Seriously?

C Mac D
11-26-2012, 02:02 PM
And the Ponder/Webb debate is stupid. Neither are fit to be a starter in this league... but that's what you can expect with Spielman (who is also responsible for our WR situation and awful John Carlson contract).

Going back to his days as GM in Miami, name a viable starting QB he's found (aside from Bret Favre)...

C Mac D
11-26-2012, 02:12 PM
It looks like Holmgren is a free agent.

Hell no. After what he did to the Browns, I have no interest of him even coming close to the Vikings. He should just retire at this point.

Reignman
11-26-2012, 02:26 PM
Did anyone really think we had a chance against the Bears? Seriously?I didn't necessarily think we'd win, but I certainly thought the game would be much closer. But in my defense, I was under the impression that we had a pretty good DL and thought they'd have an easier time navigating through the Bears patchwork OL, much like the 9ers did Monday night. And it didn't help that all our receivers decided to pick the same game to give their best Troy Williamson impersonation. Throw in the fact that we had 14 days to prepare, the Bears had 6 and a long trip home. Well you'd think there would be a chance in there somewhere.

Mark_The_Viking
11-26-2012, 02:40 PM
And the Ponder/Webb debate is stupid. Neither are fit to be a starter in this league... but that's what you can expect with Spielman (who is also responsible for our WR situation and awful John Carlson contract).

Going back to his days as GM in Miami, name a viable starting QB he's found (aside from Bret Favre)...

How is it a stupid debate? We need a QB. We have one who blows hot and cold but we know what we have and another who is neither a QB or a WR and we need to know if he needs replacing. The only sensible thing to do is give him a go and see what effect it has on our draft strategy if he sucks worse than Ponder.

marstc09
11-26-2012, 07:41 PM
I can see what guys like Singer are saying about giving Ponder the year to make his case and then deciding after that what to do with him but I would like to add that he is not the only one being evaluated and I think it is only fair to at least give Webb or Hyphenated man a shot with the same group of players to see how the team works with a different trigger man.

The coaches are also evaluating the line, the WR's etc and only having Ponders play determine whether those groups are performing might not give a true test. If we put Webb in there and everything else looks the same then we can know that either it is not all the QB's fault. If we put Webb in there and all of a sudden some of the problems go away and we start to move the ball then we might be more comfortable about some on the roster that don't look real good right now.

At this point i don't think it is going to hurt anything to bring in Webb for a few quarters to see what the team looks like with a different trigger man. I wouldn't just stick him in for a few random plays though. I would want quality time and a decent amount of series to see if things look different.

Yes, good post.

marstc09
11-26-2012, 07:52 PM
And the Ponder/Webb debate is stupid. Neither are fit to be a starter in this league... but that's what you can expect with Spielman (who is also responsible for our WR situation and awful John Carlson contract).

Going back to his days as GM in Miami, name a viable starting QB he's found (aside from Bret Favre)...

I don't even think that was Spielman. I think that was mostly Favre and Bevell.

singersp
11-27-2012, 07:04 AM
Why is it no one is complaining that we have no receivers in games that we win, especially a game when Ponder hits 9 different receivers, completes 75% of his 32 passes & Harvin isn't even playing?

MaxVike
11-27-2012, 07:16 AM
Why is it no one is complaining that we have no receivers in games that we win, especially a game when Ponder hits 9 different receivers, completes 75% of his 32 passes & Harvin isn't even playing?

+1

NodakPaul
11-27-2012, 09:20 AM
Why is it no one is complaining that we have no receivers in games that we win, especially a game when Ponder hits 9 different receivers, completes 75% of his 32 passes & Harvin isn't even playing?

The same reason nobody was complaining about that we need a new QB after the Lions game. Because like Ponder, our receivers have good games and bad games. Against the Lions both the QB and the WR corps had good games.

Believe it or not, this was not one of Ponder's worst games IMHO. He played better against the Bears than he did against the Cardinals or the Seahawks. I would put both of those losses primarily on Ponder. Against the Bears, he had several balls that were right on target and simply dropped. I think we counted nine. Now I know what people will say - great QBs win games despite dropped balls - and they would be correct. But Ponder is not a great QB, at least not now. He needs the WRs to be on their game for us to win, just like the WRs need him to be on his game for us to win. Against the Bears, the WRs were way off. The only WR who did anything worth a crap was Wright. Not saying that Ponder was amazing, but just saying that the WRs were more of the problem against the Bears.

NodakPaul
11-27-2012, 09:35 AM
I can see what guys like Singer are saying about giving Ponder the year to make his case and then deciding after that what to do with him but I would like to add that he is not the only one being evaluated and I think it is only fair to at least give Webb or Hyphenated man a shot with the same group of players to see how the team works with a different trigger man.

The coaches are also evaluating the line, the WR's etc and only having Ponders play determine whether those groups are performing might not give a true test. If we put Webb in there and everything else looks the same then we can know that either it is not all the QB's fault. If we put Webb in there and all of a sudden some of the problems go away and we start to move the ball then we might be more comfortable about some on the roster that don't look real good right now.

At this point i don't think it is going to hurt anything to bring in Webb for a few quarters to see what the team looks like with a different trigger man. I wouldn't just stick him in for a few random plays though. I would want quality time and a decent amount of series to see if things look different.

You are right, there are others who are being evaluated. So to be fair to them, don't you think they would like to have the player on the field who gives them the best chance to perform and win? If you think that player is Webb, then I can understand you wanting to put him in. I disagree, but understand. If you just want to put someone else in to see what happens... well then I disagree completely. You are screwing with people's careers then just to see what happens. Harvin is nearing the end of his contract, remember? I would like him to come back...

You listed two possible outcomes from putting Webb in - everything stays the same or things get better. What about the third possibility - things get worse. And no smart ass comments about how things can't get worse because we all know that they can. Look at Cambell's play when he came in for Cutler. Things can get a LOT worse. What message are you sending to the team then? "Hey guys - I really don't give a shit about you or your careers, I just want to see what happens with a different QB... maybe we'll win, maybe we won't..." That is a great way to lose your locker room.

You and I only have games to evaluate Webb and how he interacts with the other players. The coaches also have practices. Before they do anything like swapping starting QBs "just to see what happens" they will start installing Webb in with more of the starter packages. Honestly, I would be surprised if they haven't already. They can use that additional time to evaluate him and how he works with the other players without risking the season or other players futures. If they haven't seen anything that would make them comfortable with making the switch, why on earth would they do it anyway?

Finally, we need to keep in mind that we aren't out of the playoff picture yet. Yes, it is a long shot, but while we are still in the hunt (and right now we are solidly in the hunt) we need to do everything possible to win. Swapping out your starting QB just to see what happens is a sign of desperation, and NOT something you do until you are eliminated from the playoffs. Putting in Webb now would be giving up on the season.

C Mac D
11-27-2012, 09:40 AM
I don't even think that was Spielman. I think that was mostly Favre and Bevell.

I agree, but you know someone would bring him up.

NodakPaul
11-27-2012, 03:03 PM
Leslie Frazier: Vikings drops “really unacceptable” | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/27/leslie-frazier-vikings-drops-really-unacceptable/)

marshallvike
11-27-2012, 03:12 PM
Leslie Frazier: Vikings drops “really unacceptable” | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/27/leslie-frazier-vikings-drops-really-unacceptable/)


Barring a serious turnaround over the next five weeks, Simpson’s signing is going to go down as a major disappointment for the Vikings.


Right now I consider him Bernard Simpson. Dump him now. Don't wait till the end of the season. By the end he may be a Troy Williamsimpson.

bleedpurple
11-27-2012, 04:12 PM
And the Ponder/Webb debate is stupid. Neither are fit to be a starter in this league... but that's what you can expect with Spielman (who is also responsible for our WR situation and awful John Carlson contract).

Going back to his days as GM in Miami, name a viable starting QB he's found (aside from Bret Favre)...

THANK YOU CMAC... thank you!!.. i've been saying this for forever... Feely, mitchel, and rosenfels??? Ponder, TjACK?? seriously???

bleedpurple
11-27-2012, 04:18 PM
With the problems at QB... was anyone else baffled when we had a 3rd and 2 in the red zone and threw the ball twice.. instead of giving it to AP twice in that situation or just kicking the damn field goal to go down 14 and not stay down 17?

Your gonna put a critical series of plays in ponder's hands instead of AP's who was running all over them??? I'd fire Musgrave right after that play and not let him on the bus... just saying...

I'm surprised Alan Williams didn't come over and punch him a'la buddy ryan style....

marshallvike
11-27-2012, 04:54 PM
With the problems at QB... was anyone else baffled when we had a 3rd and 2 in the red zone and threw the ball twice.. instead of giving it to AP twice in that situation or just kicking the damn field goal to go down 14 and not stay down 17?

Your gonna put a critical series of plays in ponder's hands instead of AP's who was running all over them??? I'd fire Musgrave right after that play and not let him on the bus... just saying...

I'm surprised Alan Williams didn't come over and punch him a'la buddy ryan style....

Was that the red zone series that Ponder was pushed out of the pocket by the pass rush, rolled to his left and hit Wright in the hands in the corner of the end zone and watched it slip thru his hands and deflect off his face mask?

NodakPaul
11-27-2012, 07:52 PM
right now i consider him bernard simpson. Dump him now. Don't wait till the end of the season. By the end he may be a troy williamsimpson.

hahahaha

marstc09
11-27-2012, 11:29 PM
Why is it no one is complaining that we have no receivers in games that we win, especially a game when Ponder hits 9 different receivers, completes 75% of his 32 passes & Harvin isn't even playing?

Hasn't Tarvaris done this? Why should Ponder be any different. Even John Skelton can have a good game.

NodakPaul
11-28-2012, 02:01 AM
Hasn't Tarvaris done this? Why should Ponder be any different. Even John Skelton can have a good game.

Actually no, TJack never had a game like Ponder did against Detroit. In fact, TJack has never passed 69% when attempting 25 or more passes. ;)

But your point is well taken. Anybody can have a good game when all the cylinders are firing. And anyone can have a bad game when they are not. A good QB is someone who has significantly more good games than bad. Ponder has not done that yet - the question/debate is whether or not he will reach that level, and I honestly haven't seen enough of Ponder for me to answer that question fairly. I think he will, but he hasn't done nearly enough to convince me of that yet.

vikinggreg
11-28-2012, 04:06 AM
I still don't understand how Jackson keeps popping up like he was unfairly treated around here when he's in his 7th season, currently an inactive 3rd sting qb running the Bills scout team behind 2 7th round drafted qb's, the guys career is currently in a coma and he's not here.

As for Ponder, Spielman and Frazier have him in year 2 of a 3 year project, Bill Musgrave might be the fall guy at the end of the season for the lack of offense this season with Frazier on the hot seat the next year as the GM's next fall guy and then Spielman will get to pick his own guy to be coach (clean out Frazier staff) and it will be a few years before Spielman ends up on the hot seat.

singersp
11-28-2012, 06:42 AM
Believe it or not, this was not one of Ponder's worst games IMHO. He played better against the Bears than he did against the Cardinals or the Seahawks. I would put both of those losses primarily on Ponder. Against the Bears, he had several balls that were right on target and simply dropped. I think we counted nine. Now I know what people will say - great QBs win games despite dropped balls - and they would be correct. But Ponder is not a great QB, at least not now. He needs the WRs to be on their game for us to win, just like the WRs need him to be on his game for us to win. Against the Bears, the WRs were way off. The only WR who did anything worth a crap was Wright. Not saying that Ponder was amazing, but just saying that the WRs were more of the problem against the Bears.

The critics are saying as many as 8 were dropped maximum. It's debatable of those 8, how many should & could have been dropped.

Of those 8, how many of them would have been game changers? I believe some of them, if caught, were short of the 1st down marker anyway. Those 3rd & long short dumps well short of the 1st down marker bug me as much as those definitely could & should have been caught passes do.

I agree, there were more passes dropped this game than any other this season that I recall, but that was only 1 game out of 11.

singersp
11-28-2012, 06:46 AM
Leslie Frazier: Vikings drops “really unacceptable” | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/27/leslie-frazier-vikings-drops-really-unacceptable/)

Wow! Now there's an astounding observation & conclusion. We need to lock this guy up long term! What insight!

singersp
11-28-2012, 07:08 AM
Actually no, TJack never had a game like Ponder did against Detroit. In fact, TJack has never passed 69% when attempting 25 or more passes. ;)

Huh? He did just last year against the Steelers.

To be fair, I also don't recall a game where Jackson's has thrown as many bubble passes as Ponder does. Those caught bubble passes do a lot to boost a QB's completion %.

singersp
11-28-2012, 07:21 AM
I still don't understand how Jackson keeps popping up like he was unfairly treated around here when he's in his 7th season, currently an inactive 3rd sting qb running the Bills scout team behind 2 7th round drafted qb's, the guys career is currently in a coma and he's not here

I think it has more to do with the way the two were treated differently. For instance, many fans here claimed Jackson had more than enough starts & didn't need any more chances & blaming drops by receivers, blaming poor receiving corps, blaming coaching/play calling & blaming a poor OL were nothing more than excuses.

Yet 4 years later, with Ponder having more starts than Jackson did, fans are claiming Ponder hasn't had enough starts, he needs more chances & are blaming drops by receivers, blaming poor receiving corps, blaming coaching/play calling & blaming a poor OL & calling those valid reasons for it. Not to mention, all Ponder's starts have been in succession & you don't hear how AD is carrying this team to any of our wins.

Both look bad. One is just worse than the other.

NodakPaul
11-28-2012, 08:20 AM
The critics are saying as many as 8 were dropped maximum. It's debatable of those 8, how many should & could have been dropped.

Of those 8, how many of them would have been game changers? I believe some of them, if caught, were short of the 1st down marker anyway. Those 3rd & long short dumps well short of the 1st down marker bug me as much as those definitely could & should have been caught passes do.

I agree, there were more passes dropped this game than any other this season that I recall, but that was only 1 game out of 11.

Going back and rewatching the game, I counted 5 that were easy catches, three of them to Simpson and all were past the first down marker. I could only find one drop that was short of the first down marker, and that was to Carlson who had some running room. One was to Wright in the back of the endzone.

Anyway, I was only talking about this game - not the season. This game - specifically this game - the WRs take more credit for the loss than the QB should. So does the defense.

NodakPaul
11-28-2012, 08:24 AM
Huh? He did just last year against the Steelers.

To be fair, I also don't recall a game where Jackson's has thrown as many bubble passes as Ponder does. Those caught bubble passes do a lot to boost a QB's completion %.

Well, no he didn't. He was 20/29 for 69% against the Steelers, so no, he didn't pass 69%. And that was the closest he ever came. But to be honest, I was referring to the time he played for the Vikings... you know, the time that is actually relevant to this discussion.

NodakPaul
11-28-2012, 08:31 AM
I think it has more to do with the way the two were treated differently. For instance, many fans here claimed Jackson had more than enough starts & didn't need any more chances & blaming drops by receivers, blaming poor receiving corps, blaming coaching/play calling & blaming a poor OL were nothing more than excuses.

Yet 4 years later, with Ponder having more starts than Jackson did, fans are claiming Ponder hasn't had enough starts, he needs more chances & are blaming drops by receivers, blaming poor receiving corps, blaming coaching/play calling & blaming a poor OL & calling those valid reasons for it. Not to mention, all Ponder's starts have been in succession & you don't hear how AD is carrying this team to any of our wins.

Both look bad. One is just worse than the other.

I wish you would get over being so butt hurt over Jackson. There are just as many fans here clamoring to bench Ponder as there were for Jackson. Fact. And there were just as many fans (including you) who blamed the OL, WRs, playcalling, etc... Also Fact. It's over Johnny...

Purple Floyd
11-28-2012, 08:35 AM
You are right, there are others who are being evaluated. So to be fair to them, don't you think they would like to have the player on the field who gives them the best chance to perform and win?
Yes. And at this point I am not convinced that Ponder is going to be that guy. I am also not convinced Webb is or hyphen man for that matter. What I do know is you will never really know if you keep doing the same thing and not trying something different if it isn't working.




If you think that player is Webb, then I can understand you wanting to put him in. I disagree, but understand.
I don't know if he is. I am not at practice every day to see what he has been doing or how his progress has improved, but being that they have Webb on the roster as the number 2 guy and didn't look to bring in anyone better then I will take the coaches action as an indication he can do what they need them to if asked. If you don't feel he can come in and run the offense then maybe you should question their judgement.




If you just want to put someone else in to see what happens... well then I disagree completely. You are screwing with people's careers then just to see what happens. Harvin is nearing the end of his contract, remember? I would like him to come back...

Just to see what happens? That is ridiculous. They have a guy as a backup that they have determined is capable of running the offense if Ponder goes down. If he can do that then he is capable enough to put out there to see if he can improve the production.

I am sure harvin is shaking in his boots to think the coaches might replace a QB that had less than 70 yards passing in 2 games this year.


You listed two possible outcomes from putting Webb in - everything stays the same or things get better. What about the third possibility - things get worse. And no smart ass comments about how things can't get worse because we all know that they can.

Yeah, I suppose we could have a game with 40 yards passing and not 46.




Look at Cambell's play when he came in for Cutler. Things can get a LOT worse. What message are you sending to the team then? "Hey guys - I really don't give a shit about you or your careers, I just want to see what happens with a different QB... maybe we'll win, maybe we won't..." That is a great way to lose your locker room.
Let me point out that at this point Ponder is no Cutler. Maybe pick a better comparison. Look at what happened in SF when they went from Smith to Kaepernick.


You and I only have games to evaluate Webb and how he interacts with the other players. The coaches also have practices. Before they do anything like swapping starting QBs "just to see what happens" they will start installing Webb in with more of the starter packages. Honestly, I would be surprised if they haven't already. They can use that additional time to evaluate him and how he works with the other players without risking the season or other players futures. If they haven't seen anything that would make them comfortable with making the switch, why on earth would they do it anyway?


Hopefully they see enough in Webb to be confident he can run the offense if Ponder is injured. If not, maybe they should have gotten someone other than Webb as the backup. Or are you saying they are so incompetent that they could see webb every day in practice and miss the fact that he might not be good enough to play at this level?


Finally, we need to keep in mind that we aren't out of the playoff picture yet. Yes, it is a long shot, but while we are still in the hunt (and right now we are solidly in the hunt) we need to do everything possible to win. Swapping out your starting QB just to see what happens is a sign of desperation, and NOT something you do until you are eliminated from the playoffs. Putting in Webb now would be giving up on the season.

Well, sub 50 yard passing games by the QB are going to do nothing for us in the playoffs anyway.

And it isn't just to see what happens. It is to see if changing one player changes the dynamics of the team in a positive way. If it does great, if it doesn't then you know next year you also need to find another backup QB.

singersp
11-28-2012, 08:56 AM
Well, no he didn't. He was 20/29 for 69% against the Steelers, so no, he didn't pass 69%. And that was the closest he ever came. But to be honest, I was referring to the time he played for the Vikings... you know, the time that is actually relevant to this discussion.

Well yes he did. I may be wrong, but I do believe 29 pass attempts is greater than 25 pass attempts.

Maybe you need to re-read what you originally posted.


Actually no, TJack never had a game like Ponder did against Detroit. In fact, TJack has never passed 69% when attempting 25 or more passes. ;)

As for when he played for the Vikings he did have a game where he attempted 24 (1 short of 25) for I believe 75%.

singersp
11-28-2012, 09:23 AM
I wish you would get over being so butt hurt over Jackson. There are just as many fans here clamoring to bench Ponder as there were for Jackson. Fact. And there were just as many fans (including you) who blamed the OL, WRs, playcalling, etc... Also Fact. It's over Johnny...

My butt isn't hurt over it. Just replying honestly to the post. There are nowhere near the amount of fans here who want to bench Ponder. Only a handful. When Jackson was playing, those fans were chomping at the bit for Jackson to make a mistake & when he did, a thread bashing him for it was started. 2 years after he's gone, there's still threads being posted bashing him. There were only a handful of people here who wanted to see Jackson be allowed to finish the year in 2008. The majority wanted him gone & there were a lot more active members here in 2008 than there are now.

Not sure what you mean about it's over Johnny. Yep, I blamed part of the problem on poor receivers, play calling , OL play & coaching when Jackson played. I blamed part of the problem on poor receivers, play calling, OL play & coaching with Ponder playing too. So what's your point? Are you not seeing those posts or just ignoring them?

I'm one of the ones here who has criticized our entire receiving corp with the exception of Harvin, K-Rudd & Wright, criticized Frazier & Musgrave for poor game planning/calls, poor blocking & have stood fast on several occasions that Ponder should not be benched & should start the remainder of the year.

The only thing that Webb would prove at this point in the season is that if he started & was finding targets & hitting them (beyond 5 yards of the LOS) is that receivers were indeed getting open & Ponder wasn't finding them. I don't think putting in a new QB would miraculously make our receivers start getting open.

NodakPaul
11-28-2012, 09:53 AM
Yes. And at this point I am not convinced that Ponder is going to be that guy. I am also not convinced Webb is or hyphen man for that matter. What I do know is you will never really know if you keep doing the same thing and not trying something different if it isn't working.

I don't disagree. But now isn't the right time to try something different.



I don't know if he is. I am not at practice every day to see what he has been doing or how his progress has improved, but being that they have Webb on the roster as the number 2 guy and didn't look to bring in anyone better then I will take the coaches action as an indication he can do what they need them to if asked. If you don't feel he can come in and run the offense then maybe you should question their judgement.

Webb is a great backup. When he comes in to relieve a starter he will excel because his style of play is very different from that of a traditional QB. If teams prepare for him as a starter, he does not do very well. In a league where QBs are at a premium, a good back up is someone you like to hold on to, even if he is only a short term solution.


Just to see what happens? That is ridiculous. They have a guy as a backup that they have determined is capable of running the offense if Ponder goes down. If he can do that then he is capable enough to put out there to see if he can improve the production.

See me previous comment about Webb's ability to run the offense.


I am sure harvin is shaking in his boots to think the coaches might replace a QB that had less than 70 yards passing in 2 games this year.

Harvin has shown us that he doesn't want to stick around if the team isn't doing everything it can to win. We are 6-5 and well on the bubble for playoffs. Replacing the starting QB at this point is giving up, and I doubt that would fly with Harvin or many of the other players in the locker room.


Yeah, I suppose we could have a game with 40 yards passing and not 46.

What game are you talking about? Ponder has never had a 46 yard passing game. He has had two games under 100 yards - 63 and 58. And yes, he sucked in those games. However, his average this year is 198 yards per game with a 63.5% completion percentage, 14 TDs and 9 INTs.


Let me point out that at this point Ponder is no Cutler. Maybe pick a better comparison. Look at what happened in SF when they went from Smith to Kaepernick.

And Webb is no Kaepernick.


Hopefully they see enough in Webb to be confident he can run the offense if Ponder is injured. If not, maybe they should have gotten someone other than Webb as the backup. Or are you saying they are so incompetent that they could see webb every day in practice and miss the fact that he might not be good enough to play at this level?

Again reference my previous.


Well, sub 50 yard passing games by the QB are going to do nothing for us in the playoffs anyway.

What games are you talking about man? Ponder has not had a sub 50 yard game... Again, he is averaging 198+ yards per game this year.


And it isn't just to see what happens. It is to see if changing one player changes the dynamics of the team in a positive way. If it does great, if it doesn't then you know next year you also need to find another backup QB.

Agreed, and if we are eliminated from playoff contention, or even realistically out of it, then I wouldn't argue a QB swap. I think it would be a mistake, but at that point it probably wouldn't hurt. This is NOT the time for it though. We aren't Philly - we shouldn't be having these conversations yet.

tastywaves
11-28-2012, 11:05 AM
My butt isn't hurt over it. Just replying honestly to the post. There are nowhere near the amount of fans here who want to bench Ponder. Only a handful. When Jackson was playing, those fans were chomping at the bit for Jackson to make a mistake & when he did, a thread bashing him for it was started. 2 years after he's gone, there's still threads being posted bashing him. There were only a handful of people here who wanted to see Jackson be allowed to finish the year in 2008. The majority wanted him gone & there were a lot more active members here in 2008 than there are now.

Not sure what you mean about it's over Johnny. Yep, I blamed part of the problem on poor receivers, play calling , OL play & coaching when Jackson played. I blamed part of the problem on poor receivers, play calling, OL play & coaching with Ponder playing too. So what's your point? Are you not seeing those posts or just ignoring them?

I'm one of the ones here who has criticized our entire receiving corp with the exception of Harvin, K-Rudd & Wright, criticized Frazier & Musgrave for poor game planning/calls, poor blocking & have stood fast on several occasions that Ponder should not be benched & should start the remainder of the year.

The only thing that Webb would prove at this point in the season is that if he started & was finding targets & hitting them (beyond 5 yards of the LOS) is that receivers were indeed getting open & Ponder wasn't finding them. I don't think putting in a new QB would miraculously make our receivers start getting open.

Why is it important to you that every athlete is treated by your standards equally by the fans? Isn't the point of these boards to express your opinions about the Vikings, whether they follow what you perceive as the same set of standards or not.

Either you believe in Ponder or you don't. Whatever happened with TJack should have no relevance. Either you believe Ponder should get more time behind center or you don't. Tjack and how people felt about him should have no relevance. If one person bailed on Tjack early but see something in Ponder that wants them to give them more time, why is that so hard for you to take in?

I think the thing you struggle with the most, is that you want everyone to look at the game the same way that you do and struggle when they don't.

Look beyond the stats and watch the player. Make your opinion on the player and go with it. Speaking of which, what is your opinion on Ponder? I know you want him to finish out the year, but where do you fall on his chances of making it as a long term starter for the Vikings?

1) No chance, the guy just doesn't have what it takes.
2) I've seen some things I like and need more time to decide.
3) I think he has a good chance of being the franchise guy we are looking for.
4) I have no opinion at all, since I am merely a fan, I prefer to leave those decisions up to the coaching staff.

If you fall into #1, then you should be calling for him to be benched right now. Since you're not, I have to assume that you are in #2 or #4, but your posts do everything you can to point out his deficiencies, so hard to get a read from you. Your posts about Ponder seem to only relate to TJack comparisons. How about giving us your thoughts on Ponder without the comparisons.

Purple Floyd
11-28-2012, 03:13 PM
[QUOTE=NodakPaul;1131982


Webb is a great backup. When he comes in to relieve a starter he will excel because his style of play is very different from that of a traditional QB.

[/QUOTE]

Well, why will he excel? Is it because he is a running back and finds the holes or is it because he is making WR's better by getting them the ball? That is the thing I was talking about. If he does make the rest of the team look better then it helps the evaluation process of those players and my point it reinforced.

As far as his yards per game average, if you are happy with the sub 70 yard passing games then by all means sit back and enjoy. And no where did i say I was calling for anything to be done immediately. I do, however feel if the coaches think it is time that i would be fine with that rather than just keeping him on the field for all 16 games and then going into next year without knowing how a change in QB's is going to make the rest of the offense look.

NodakPaul
11-28-2012, 03:59 PM
Well, why will he excel? Is it because he is a running back and finds the holes or is it because he is making WR's better by getting them the ball? That is the thing I was talking about. If he does make the rest of the team look better then it helps the evaluation process of those players and my point it reinforced.

As far as his yards per game average, if you are happy with the sub 70 yard passing games then by all means sit back and enjoy. And no where did i say I was calling for anything to be done immediately. I do, however feel if the coaches think it is time that i would be fine with that rather than just keeping him on the field for all 16 games and then going into next year without knowing how a change in QB's is going to make the rest of the offense look.

Fair questions. I think that Webb excels primarily because he is so mobile. While he does have a hell of an arm, his accuracy, especially deep, is pretty bad. Certainly worse than Ponders. If I was a DC prepping for Webb, I would go to a single safety look and spy the QB the whole time. Obviously that is a lot different than what we would normally see - so when Webb comes in relief it takes the defenses a little while to adjust.

And no, I am not happy with sub 70 passing games - in fact I believe I said that Ponder sucked during those games. But you are acting like that is every game, and not just 2 out of the 11 we have played. I am happier with 200+ yard passing games, which is what we see more often out of Ponder.

In the end I agree with you. If the coaches decided that it is time to pull Ponder, I won't be upset. They have a bigger body of work than I do to evaluate both him and Webb and make that decision. Similarly, I am not going to get worked up by the coaching staff's decision to continue to start Ponder. Some people here are acting like Ponder can barely flick a booger without getting it picked off, and that is more than a bit ridiculous. I think that everything we have seen from Ponder so far this season - both the good and the bad - warrants keeping him in as starter... for now.

marstc09
11-28-2012, 11:03 PM
I still don't understand how Jackson keeps popping up like he was unfairly treated around here when he's in his 7th season, currently an inactive 3rd sting qb running the Bills scout team behind 2 7th round drafted qb's, the guys career is currently in a coma and he's not here

I think it has more to do with the way the two were treated differently. For instance, many fans here claimed Jackson had more than enough starts & didn't need any more chances & blaming drops by receivers, blaming poor receiving corps, blaming coaching/play calling & blaming a poor OL were nothing more than excuses.

Yet 4 years later, with Ponder having more starts than Jackson did, fans are claiming Ponder hasn't had enough starts, he needs more chances & are blaming drops by receivers, blaming poor receiving corps, blaming coaching/play calling & blaming a poor OL & calling those valid reasons for it. Not to mention, all Ponder's starts have been in succession & you don't hear how AD is carrying this team to any of our wins.

Both look bad. One is just worse than the other.

Exactly!!!!

marstc09
11-28-2012, 11:21 PM
Well, no he didn't. He was 20/29 for 69% against the Steelers, so no, he didn't pass 69%. And that was the closest he ever came. But to be honest, I was referring to the time he played for the Vikings... you know, the time that is actually relevant to this discussion.

Well yes he did. I may be wrong, but I do believe 29 pass attempts is greater than 25 pass attempts.

Maybe you need to re-read what you originally posted.


Actually no, TJack never had a game like Ponder did against Detroit. In fact, TJack has never passed 69% when attempting 25 or more passes. ;)

As for when he played for the Vikings he did have a game where he attempted 24 (1 short of 25) for I believe 75%.

So my original point is valid. Ponder has had more time than TJoke and has not done any better. I have seen enough. I ignored the talk about him not having the arm for the NFL. The scouts were right. I am willing to let him ride out the year but we better bring in some competition next year.

VKG4LFE
11-29-2012, 12:54 AM
So my original point is valid. Ponder has had more time than TJoke and has not done any better. I have seen enough. I ignored the talk about him not having the arm for the NFL. The scouts were right. I am willing to let him ride out the year but we better bring in some competition next year.


I agree 100%.

singersp
11-29-2012, 06:23 AM
Webb is a great backup. When he comes in to relieve a starter he will excel because his style of play is very different from that of a traditional QB. If teams prepare for him as a starter, he does not do very well. In a league where QBs are at a premium, a good back up is someone you like to hold on to, even if he is only a short term solution.

You continually make that statement, yet Webb has only started 2 games where he has played significant time during those games. He listed as having started a 3rd time, but Ponder started & played the whole game & Webb threw 1 pass in a wildcat play which he completed.

Of those two starts, Webb won 1 game & lost the other & in those two games completed 65.4% & 62.5% of his passes. 1 Loss out of 2 starts hardly seems like a decent sample size to base that kind of statement from. Especially coming from a guy who's stating Ponder needs 2 years of starts before he can be judged. Sorry, but two starts isn't adequate time given the fact we know he can come off the bench & play.

singersp
11-29-2012, 07:05 AM
Why is it important to you that every athlete is treated by your standards equally by the fans? Isn't the point of these boards to express your opinions about the Vikings, whether they follow what you perceive as the same set of standards or not.

Either you believe in Ponder or you don't. Whatever happened with TJack should have no relevance. Either you believe Ponder should get more time behind center or you don't. Tjack and how people felt about him should have no relevance. If one person bailed on Tjack early but see something in Ponder that wants them to give them more time, why is that so hard for you to take in?

I think the thing you struggle with the most, is that you want everyone to look at the game the same way that you do and struggle when they don't.

Look beyond the stats and watch the player. Make your opinion on the player and go with it. Speaking of which, what is your opinion on Ponder? I know you want him to finish out the year, but where do you fall on his chances of making it as a long term starter for the Vikings?

1) No chance, the guy just doesn't have what it takes.
2) I've seen some things I like and need more time to decide.
3) I think he has a good chance of being the franchise guy we are looking for.
4) I have no opinion at all, since I am merely a fan, I prefer to leave those decisions up to the coaching staff.

If you fall into #1, then you should be calling for him to be benched right now. Since you're not, I have to assume that you are in #2 or #4, but your posts do everything you can to point out his deficiencies, so hard to get a read from you. Your posts about Ponder seem to only relate to TJack comparisons. How about giving us your thoughts on Ponder without the comparisons.

I do expect fans to at least be somewhat similar in their standards rather than than differ so greatly from one QB to the next. I don't expect fans to claim they only need to see 2 games to rule them a bust or back up at best & then demand they need to see 30+ out of another & claim maybe they're just young & starting off slow. Lets not forget those same 2 starts are behind the same starters on the OL & receiving corp that was blamed for another QB's failure to succeed.

I don't expect fans to claim a QB sucks because he can't take the team on his back & overcome bad receiving corps & a bad OL & to blame the latter is making excuses for bad QB play, but then claim another QB's play is due to bad receiving corps & a bad OL, it's not fair to judge him based on those reasons & he needs more time behind a good receiving corp & a good OL before a decision can be made.

If they are going to state certain reasons hold no validity for poor/mediocre play & are mere excuses, then I expect them to apply that same claim to all players rather than make the claim that they are valid reasons for a player they like.

My opinion on Ponder is I've seen things I like & things I don't. Just like Jackson, he'll do things that make you a believer in him & then turn right around & disappoint you. That's what makes it such a tough call. Will he or won't he?

I love his "take charge" attitude, but am growing weary of his multitude of LOS passes & 5 yard dumps. Is that the play that was called or is it he isn't looking or able to find open receivers or is hesitant to throw due to coverage. At first I was believing it was because of our receiving corp, but after reading Harvin stating film showed receivers are getting open but not being thrown to, I question QB play more.

Outside of 10 yards I don't have a lot of confidence in his passing & judging by our opponents, they don't either. Sometimes he's spot on, other times way off. If the ball is 5 yards off target, it really doesn't matter how good that receivers hands are.

He also tends to hold on to the ball to long.

We are facing some tough opponents so it will give him an opportunity to show us what he can do or can't do.

You also can't simply state you either believe in Ponder or you don't, Several fans like me are on the fence & could go either way.

Many fans have said they want to continually see progress out of a young player. With Ponder, 21 games in, I don't see hardly any progress, if any from game 1 of the season. The Detroit game with him passing to 9 different receivers gave me hope, but last week, even minus the drops, I was disappointed.

jargomcfargo
11-29-2012, 10:56 AM
You continually make that statement, yet Webb has only started 2 games where he has played significant time during those games. He listed as having started a 3rd time, but Ponder started & played the whole game & Webb threw 1 pass in a wildcat play which he completed.

Of those two starts, Webb won 1 game & lost the other & in those two games completed 65.4% & 62.5% of his passes. 1 Loss out of 2 starts hardly seems like a decent sample size to base that kind of statement from. Especially coming from a guy who's stating Ponder needs 2 years of starts before he can be judged. Sorry, but two starts isn't adequate time given the fact we know he can come off the bench & play.
I agree completely. Hard to draw definitive conclusions based on such limited opportunities. The staff didn't feel he was the answer and chose Ponder instead. The staff is probably right, but they certainly have been wrong before. The only way Webb gets a shot is if Ponder gets injured.

i_bleed_purple
11-29-2012, 12:24 PM
I don't think putting in a new QB would miraculously make our receivers start getting open.
You don't think that putting a running QB back there who is fairly inaccurate back there would make them focus even less on the longer balls? I suspect putting Webb back there WOULD make our receivers start getting open. Hell, only cover two of them, they still won't get hit.

singersp
11-30-2012, 07:25 AM
You don't think that putting a running QB back there who is fairly inaccurate back there would make them focus even less on the longer balls? I suspect putting Webb back there WOULD make our receivers start getting open. Hell, only cover two of them, they still won't get hit.

What I am saying is what Harvin was talking about. Receivers are already open now with Ponder. If they put Webb in they'll still be getting open.

singersp
11-30-2012, 07:39 AM
I agree completely. Hard to draw definitive conclusions based on such limited opportunities. The staff didn't feel he was the answer and chose Ponder instead. The staff is probably right, but they certainly have been wrong before. The only way Webb gets a shot is if Ponder gets injured.

I don't think Webb should have started either. I'm simply stating to claim Webb doesn't play well when teams prepare for him is very premature based on two starts in his rookie year. THe win he did have was against a 10-4 Eagles team.

When Ponder didn't do well last year fans were quick to point out that he was only a rookie.

This year the hope was Ponder had more upside than Webb & was expected to improve, but we didn't see a whole lot of that. In some cases we saw regression rather than improvement, especially with his mechanics.

marstc09
11-30-2012, 09:17 AM
You don't think that putting a running QB back there who is fairly inaccurate back there would make them focus even less on the longer balls? I suspect putting Webb back there WOULD make our receivers start getting open. Hell, only cover two of them, they still won't get hit.

What I am saying is what Harvin was talking about. Receivers are already open now with Ponder. If they put Webb in they'll still be getting open.

Maybe Webb has matured. Maybe Webb can hit them. I am willing to see. He deserves a shot especially since Ponder has regressed.

NodakPaul
11-30-2012, 10:29 AM
Maybe Webb has matured. Maybe Webb can hit them. I am willing to see. He deserves a shot especially since Ponder has regressed.

You evaluate that in practices, not games. And the "regression" on Ponder is exaggerated. He has good games and bad games - more good than bad this year, although I admit that it has been more bad than good in the last six weeks. What that tells me is that he is inconsistent right now, not that he has regressed. It is important to find out what was the trend and what was the illusion. I agree with Singer on the important of finishing out the season.

You don't bench your starting QB when your team is on the playoff bubble based on some "maybes" about a QB-turned-WR-turned-QB-again.

NodakPaul
11-30-2012, 10:40 AM
What I am saying is what Harvin was talking about. Receivers are already open now with Ponder. If they put Webb in they'll still be getting open.

OK, this has been brought up a few times, but I have to ask - has anyone else watched the coaches film and commented on this?

Obviously I don't have access to the 22 film, but I do have all of the games recorded, and when I go back and watch, I have a hard time finding open receivers from the ones that are in the frame. I think we are taking Harvin's comments (which were made in frustration) and blowing them up a bit.

There ARE two or three plays each game that I can pick out an open receiver that was not targeted, and I think that is what Harvin is talking about. Sometimes Ponder targets somebody else who may be more covered, sometimes he holds the ball, a few times there were defenders in the backfield quickly and Ponder is scrambling. FYI, if Ponder if being flushed to one side of the field, it doesn't matter is a WR is open on the other side - throwing across your body while being pressured is a great way to get picked off. Every pop warner QB (and Brett Favre after 2009) knows that lesson.

It isn't like there are open receivers every down that Ponder is just missing. Referring again and again to Harvin's comments a few weeks ago as evidence that "Receivers are already open now with Ponder" is misleading at best. Our WR corp honestly is not very good outside a couple of individuals. And right now our QB isn't very good either. Either the QB or the WR corps needs to step up their games (preferably both).

tastywaves
11-30-2012, 11:10 AM
OK, this has been brought up a few times, but I have to ask - has anyone else watched the coaches film and commented on this?

Obviously I don't have access to the 22 film, but I do have all of the games recorded, and when I go back and watch, I have a hard time finding open receivers from the ones that are in the frame. I think we are taking Harvin's comments (which were made in frustration) and blowing them up a bit.

There ARE two or three plays each game that I can pick out an open receiver that was not targeted, and I think that is what Harvin is talking about. Sometimes Ponder targets somebody else who may be more covered, sometimes he holds the ball, a few times there were defenders in the backfield quickly and Ponder is scrambling. FYI, if Ponder if being flushed to one side of the field, it doesn't matter is a WR is open on the other side - throwing across your body while being pressured is a great way to get picked off. Every pop warner QB (and Brett Favre after 2009) knows that lesson.

It isn't like there are open receivers every down that Ponder is just missing. Referring again and again to Harvin's comments a few weeks ago as evidence that "Receivers are already open now with Ponder" is misleading at best. Our WR corp honestly is not very good outside a couple of individuals. And right now our QB isn't very good either. Either the QB or the WR corps needs to step up their games (preferably both).

Wright comes in last week and gets 7 catches. Why is that? The other receivers on the team (outside of Harvin), have had more than ample opportunity to get similar production, yet game after game, they come up damned near empty.

My guess is that Wright actually was getting open and Ponder felt comfortable throwing to him.

On most any play in any game in the NFL there will be receivers who think they are open. In some cases they are right and the QB doesn't find them and other cases the coverage is setup to make a play that the reciever is unaware of, and in most cases the receiver thinks that no matter how well he is covered, he can still make the play.

Ponder does miss open receivers no doubt, especially when pressured. One of the announcers on a game or so back (Steve Young maybe), mentioned how a lot of west coast QB's are taught to focus on half of the field as it is too difficult to take in the whole field on precise timing patterns. This is especially true for young QB's. This could still be an emphasis with Ponder at this point in his career, don't know, but the point is, there is a lot more to the concept of open recievers than a comment made by a disgruntled receiver.

I'm not sure I would throw it to Simpson right now if he was wide open if he can't figure out how to use his hands to catch the ball.

tastywaves
11-30-2012, 11:16 AM
I do expect fans to at least be somewhat similar in their standards rather than than differ so greatly from one QB to the next. I don't expect fans to claim they only need to see 2 games to rule them a bust or back up at best & then demand they need to see 30+ out of another & claim maybe they're just young & starting off slow. Lets not forget those same 2 starts are behind the same starters on the OL & receiving corp that was blamed for another QB's failure to succeed.

I don't expect fans to claim a QB sucks because he can't take the team on his back & overcome bad receiving corps & a bad OL & to blame the latter is making excuses for bad QB play, but then claim another QB's play is due to bad receiving corps & a bad OL, it's not fair to judge him based on those reasons & he needs more time behind a good receiving corp & a good OL before a decision can be made.

If they are going to state certain reasons hold no validity for poor/mediocre play & are mere excuses, then I expect them to apply that same claim to all players rather than make the claim that they are valid reasons for a player they like.

My opinion on Ponder is I've seen things I like & things I don't. Just like Jackson, he'll do things that make you a believer in him & then turn right around & disappoint you. That's what makes it such a tough call. Will he or won't he?

I love his "take charge" attitude, but am growing weary of his multitude of LOS passes & 5 yard dumps. Is that the play that was called or is it he isn't looking or able to find open receivers or is hesitant to throw due to coverage. At first I was believing it was because of our receiving corp, but after reading Harvin stating film showed receivers are getting open but not being thrown to, I question QB play more.

Outside of 10 yards I don't have a lot of confidence in his passing & judging by our opponents, they don't either. Sometimes he's spot on, other times way off. If the ball is 5 yards off target, it really doesn't matter how good that receivers hands are.

He also tends to hold on to the ball to long.

We are facing some tough opponents so it will give him an opportunity to show us what he can do or can't do.

You also can't simply state you either believe in Ponder or you don't, Several fans like me are on the fence & could go either way.

Many fans have said they want to continually see progress out of a young player. With Ponder, 21 games in, I don't see hardly any progress, if any from game 1 of the season. The Detroit game with him passing to 9 different receivers gave me hope, but last week, even minus the drops, I was disappointed.

Very constructive post. I agree with a lot of it and I think many posters would as well.

And your right, many folks are still on the fence with Ponder and not necessarily for or against him at this point.

One big exception I do make to the post however, is that I don't think every player should necessarily be given the same treatment to form an opinion on his worthiness. Player evaluation is very subjective, both by coaches and by fans. In many cases, it is hard to completely qualify in words exactly what you like or dislike about a player, but if the guy doesn't pass the eye test to a particular individual, then he will lose faith in them. Many times the eye test is more accurate than any other analysis you try to make on a player. But again, it is very subjective.

jargomcfargo
11-30-2012, 12:35 PM
I'm simply stating to claim Webb doesn't play well when teams prepare for him is very premature based on two starts in his rookie year.
This is where we agree 100%. In fact, the same thing could be said about Ponder. When teams prepare for him he doesn't play as well. Ponder played better early in the season.

singersp
12-01-2012, 08:49 AM
You evaluate that in practices, not games. And the "regression" on Ponder is exaggerated. He has good games and bad games - more good than bad this year, although I admit that it has been more bad than good in the last six weeks. What that tells me is that he is inconsistent right now, not that he has regressed. It is important to find out what was the trend and what was the illusion. I agree with Singer on the important of finishing out the season.

You don't bench your starting QB when your team is on the playoff bubble based on some "maybes" about a QB-turned-WR-turned-QB-again.

This part, which you agree with is why I say regression;


although I admit that it has been more bad than good in the last six weeks.

That is regression. It's worse now than the first 5 weeks. We should be seeing improvement & progress.

If the games were reversed in order and he was playing better the last 5 weeks instead of it being the first 5 weeks, fans would be claiming that he is improving & progressing & not claiming "he is inconsistent".

singersp
12-01-2012, 08:55 AM
Obviously I don't have access to the 22 film, but I do have all of the games recorded, and when I go back and watch, I have a hard time finding open receivers from the ones that are in the frame.

Of those offensive plays that you watch, How many of them would you say are completely in frame that shows the entire field with all of our receivers in frame the entire play?

My guess is a very small percentage.

The one thing I see too much of though, which does frustrate me, is WR's & TE's that aren't even sent downfield on a passing route, but rather kept back to block on a designed bubble pass or a dump off pass.

singersp
12-01-2012, 09:27 AM
Very constructive post. I agree with a lot of it and I think many posters would as well.

And your right, many folks are still on the fence with Ponder and not necessarily for or against him at this point.

One big exception I do make to the post however, is that I don't think every player should necessarily be given the same treatment to form an opinion on his worthiness. Player evaluation is very subjective, both by coaches and by fans. In many cases, it is hard to completely qualify in words exactly what you like or dislike about a player, but if the guy doesn't pass the eye test to a particular individual, then he will lose faith in them. Many times the eye test is more accurate than any other analysis you try to make on a player. But again, it is very subjective.

IMO, sometimes it's subjective & other times not. I think sometimes a coach feels compelled to start one player over another based on how much said player was paid, where he was taken in the draft & how much experience he's had.

For instance, if Webb had out performed Ponder in Preseason, I believe Frazier still would have went with Ponder since he was taken in the 1st round with every intent for him to become the face of the franchise.

Perhaps Kapernick (sp) passed the eye test over Smith in SF before the start of the season, but Harbaugh went with the proven QB instead, even if he felt Kapernick was better.

On the other side of the coin, Seattle paid big bucks for Flynn with every intent he would be their future, but gave Wilson the nod instead.

Back in Minnesota, Wright might be passing the eye test moreso than Simpson, but Simpson is getting more play time because he was "the guy" brought in by Spielman to be our deep threat veteran WR.

Last year, at least through my eyes, Rudolph & Harvin both clearly passed the eye test yet they were not utilized nearly as much as they should have been.

NodakPaul
12-01-2012, 06:01 PM
This part, which you agree with is why I say regression;



That is regression. It's worse now than the first 5 weeks. We should be seeing improvement & progress.

If the games were reversed in order and he was playing better the last 5 weeks instead of it being the first 5 weeks, fans would be claiming that he is improving & progressing & not claiming "he is inconsistent".

I don't disagree, what you are actually referring to is regression to the mean. Yes, it is a form of regression, but it is not a negative thing as some are making it out to be, specifically in the post that I quoted. Ponder was over performing at the beginning of the year, and he underperformed a couple of games later in the season. Technically, anytime a QB has a game that is worse than their last game there is a regression. That doesn't mean that the player is regressing. For the record, Ponder's best game of his career came against the Lions, which was during this last 5 weeks.

If you look at Ponder's entire body of work, he is still trending up, i.e. he is improving. He is better now than he was last year. Some games are pretty good, some have been very bad. That is what I mean by inconsistent. Over these last five games, I believe that he needs to show more consistency if he wants a shot at being the starting QB next year. Inconsistency can be a QB killer, as we all have seen.

NodakPaul
12-01-2012, 06:09 PM
Of those offensive plays that you watch, How many of them would you say are completely in frame that shows the entire field with all of our receivers in frame the entire play?

My guess is a very small percentage.

The one thing I see too much of though, which does frustrate me, is WR's & TE's that aren't even sent downfield on a passing route, but rather kept back to block on a designed bubble pass or a dump off pass.

You are correct, very rarely can we see the entire field on TV. We do get better views online, but even then we will lose receivers off frame. But I find it hard to believe that whatever WR happens to be out of frame at the time is the one who happens to be open. Sometimes it probably is, but I think more often than not our WRs simply aren't getting open.

I share your frustration about nobody being sent deep. I don't know if that is because of Musgrave's offensive theory or because of the lack of speed of some of Ponder's deep passes, but I suspect it is both. We have seen him put some more zip on the ball lately, but when he does he tends to overthrow his receivers. Hopefully that is something he can address.

singersp
12-01-2012, 08:06 PM
You are correct, very rarely can we see the entire field on TV. We do get better views online, but even then we will lose receivers off frame. But I find it hard to believe that whatever WR happens to be out of frame at the time is the one who happens to be open. Sometimes it probably is, but I think more often than not our WRs simply aren't getting open.

I share your frustration about nobody being sent deep. I don't know if that is because of Musgrave's offensive theory or because of the lack of speed of some of Ponder's deep passes, but I suspect it is both. We have seen him put some more zip on the ball lately, but when he does he tends to overthrow his receivers. Hopefully that is something he can address.

The thing that makes me think more are open then what we think there are was the Lions game. That was very telling. Before that game it was usually Harvin getting the ball with a few others being sprinkled in.

We thought that was because receivers weren't getting open so Ponder chose Harvin instead. However though, when Harvin wasn't playing (Lion's game) there happened to be receivers open all over the place. Not just 1 or 2, but 9 different targets were getting the ball. None where named Harvin.

I don't believe that by some miracle receivers first started getting open in that game, I believe on many other occasions, receivers were open & Ponder chose to go to Harvin or K-Rudd instead. Maybe it was because of trust, sure handedness or Ponder didn't want to throw into tighter coverage. For whatever reasons, he chose to locate Harvin & throw to him most of the time. A lot of those times being bubble passes.

My frustration isn't that receivers aren't being sent deep as much as it is they aren't being sent at all. Sometimes they never leave the LOS on passing plays. If they'd send more receivers out at different depths a lot more often than they do, rather than hold them back to block on bubble passes and dumps or runs, it might open up things more for Ponder.

Purple Floyd
12-02-2012, 03:49 PM
Fair questions. I think that Webb excels primarily because he is so mobile. While he does have a hell of an arm, his accuracy, especially deep, is pretty bad. Certainly worse than Ponders.

No way is his accuracy worse than Ponders. I have had a chance to watch what they can do in the last 2 training camps and I can tell you that Webb has a better throw than Ponder. I am not convinced that he can read a defense or learn a playbook but his physical skills are superior without a question. All along I felt Ponder would have the mental advantage but I am not convinced any more.



If I was a DC prepping for Webb, I would go to a single safety look and spy the QB the whole time. Obviously that is a lot different than what we would normally see - so when Webb comes in relief it takes the defenses a little while to adjust.

Well what is the plan for Ponder? It certainly isn't challenging their secondary to have him in there.


And no, I am not happy with sub 70 passing games - in fact I believe I said that Ponder sucked during those games. But you are acting like that is every game, and not just 2 out of the 11 we have played. I am happier with 200+ yard passing games, which is what we see more often out of Ponder.

When you do it against the Packers even with AP having 200+ yards on the ground, then to me it's a problem.


In the end I agree with you. If the coaches decided that it is time to pull Ponder, I won't be upset. They have a bigger body of work than I do to evaluate both him and Webb and make that decision. Similarly, I am not going to get worked up by the coaching staff's decision to continue to start Ponder. Some people here are acting like Ponder can barely flick a booger without getting it picked off, and that is more than a bit ridiculous. I think that everything we have seen from Ponder so far this season - both the good and the bad - warrants keeping him in as starter... for now.

Well, to me that time has passed. What are we playing for?

PondersPecker
12-02-2012, 04:15 PM
We just have to be patient Ponder will get worse! Then he will get benched?

bleedpurple
12-03-2012, 03:09 PM
We just have to be patient Ponder will get worse! Then he will get benched?

He should have been benched last week with the game and the playoffs on the line.