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View Full Version : OFFICIAL COLTS vs VIKINGS POSTGAME DISCUSSION



NodakPaul
09-16-2012, 04:56 PM
Please feel free to post your thoughts, comments and frustarations.

1-1

Lots to complain about, so I assume this will be a pretty negative thread. Walsh was again the bright spot.

Reignman
09-16-2012, 04:59 PM
Ohh looks like you beat me by a minute Nodak lol. Could a mod merge the topics?

NodakPaul
09-16-2012, 05:03 PM
OK, there will be a lot of complaining in this thread, most of it warranted. I think that we are looking like a poorly coached team. That many penalties is not acceptable.

The defense definitely struggled, in all areas - secondary, LB, and DL. I actually think our secondary was the best this game, and that is pretty sad. Smith is still learning, but I am optimistic on him.

I love Walsh. Dependable on long FGs, and makes it very difficult to return a kickoff. Great addition to the team.

Ponder continues to improve. He looked decent this game - not great, but not bad. 25/35 (71.4%) for 245 and 2 TDs. But there was one INT that was dropped, and he was pretty lucky on the first TD (that was fun to watch though). He needs to continue to improve if we are going to be contenders next year.

Bottom line for me - Frazier's leash is getting very, very short. Our DL was shut down by a hodge podge OL, and our offense was sluggish despite having Rudolph, Ponder, Harvin, and Peterson all on the field. I see too much talent there for our offense to be going three and out against a poor defense. I put this loss on the coach.

NodakPaul
09-16-2012, 05:11 PM
Ohh looks like you beat me by a minute Nodak lol. Could a mod merge the topics?

lol. Yeah, I'm sure a mod will merge 'em. :)

Reignman
09-16-2012, 05:31 PM
Yeah I don't know what to make of this game. It was embarrassing how we played through 3 quarters. The Colts were 2-14 last year, their secondary was worse than ours, they had a rookie QB making his 2nd start, an offensive line with just 1 starter, a patchwork Freenyless defense and yet they stilled owned us on both sides of the ball for 3 quarters. I don't know how us fans are supposed to have confidence when we go up against a real team. We'll find out next week I guess.

In the 3rd quarter I said this is one of those games where everything goes sooo wrong, too wrong in fact that we just might end up winning. I mean how many times did we shoot ourselves in the foot? It was crazy like that, and sure enough we almost pulled out another miracle, but It's pretty hard to win back to back games in miracle fashion.

If we could just find someone (Audie Cole?) with a nose for the football on defense I'm almost positive we win this game. I counted at least 4 near or coulda-been INT's today, but ofc they were all dropped or hit the turf. And we were just 1 lousy turnover away from victory, but for whatever reason, this team is just allergic to takeaways. Hell even just 1 batted down pass at the end and we're headed to OT.

Tad7
09-16-2012, 05:54 PM
There was many problems through out the game but with the game on the line, that prevent defense was really really safe. That was so frustrating.

EricTheViking
09-16-2012, 06:44 PM
The Vikings played horribly today, with a host of a problems that have already been noted, BUT. . . did anyone else besides me notice that the play clock had expired 5 to 10 seconds BEFORE the snap for the game winning field goal???
Does anyone have this on their DVR (I don't) who can go back and look at that??
Shouldn't that have been a delay of game and a 10 second run-off? The game should have gone to overtime unless the error was actually with the network (the on-screen play clock differing from the on-field play clock).
Any thoughts on this? Am I wrong???

Minniman
09-16-2012, 06:59 PM
The Vikings played horribly today, with a host of a problems that have already been noted, BUT. . . did anyone else besides me notice that the play clock had expired 5 to 10 seconds BEFORE the snap for the game winning field goal???
That is what the play clock showed. Perhaps it was not official, but someone should have said something to be sure.

EricTheViking
09-16-2012, 07:09 PM
That is what the play clock showed. Perhaps it was not official, but someone should have said something to be sure.

I wish I had a DVR so I could use a timer to see how much time went by after the spike, to stop the game clock, and the next snap. Just for the hell of it since it doesn't matter anyways -- its over and in the books and, in the grand scheme of this season as a whole, probably won't matter much one way or the other.

Minniman
09-16-2012, 07:21 PM
I wish I had a DVR so I could use a timer to see how much time went by after the spike, to stop the game clock, and the next snap.
It was give or take 70 seconds.

The officials did make a clock change in there, so perhaps that mattered, but the clock ran down, and they were allowed 70 seconds with no time out.

skum
09-16-2012, 07:23 PM
1. We are a too dependant on Percy Harvin, he is a great player, but if he is going to have to carry the load for the entire season, he is going to go down.. We saw it at the end of the game..

2. Our offensive playboook seems so limited.. We run Peterson, dash it to Harvin and a screen to Toby.. thats pretty much all we got..

3. Why is Jarius Wright inactive all the time?, we need a guy who can come in and make som plays outside of Harvin so why not give him a chance

4. Is the 25 million dollar man John Carlson going to show up at all?.. He has had 2 games and 0 catches.. I rarely see him on the field, what is going on???

5. Defense can't let up on the final drive.. That was hard to watch.. a rookie QB easily dropping off 2 20-yard passes and then a dump penalty to set up the game-winner..

6. Jared Allen, we need him to do something.. he was close to getting a sack today, but him getting 22 last year and not one in the first 2 games so far is not acceptable.. Today he was 1 on 1 with their LT lots of times and still nothing.

7. Penalties.. that killed us today.. The drive where they scored a field goal instead of punting.. That was the 3 points today that gave them the win..

8. Lots to improve and a hard game next week vs the 49ers.. Looks like 1-2 but in the NFL anything can happen.. Like the Cardinals beating the Patriots today..

rednorsk
09-16-2012, 07:28 PM
IMHO the Vikings will win 3 games this year IF they get lucky!!
Poor defense, poor play calling, very poor clock management. Their secondary, once again is so weak it's unbelievable. My question is it the defense backs that are really bad, or is it the coaches that don't have a clue on how the handle the secondary? OH yeah, way too many really dumb penalties.

Purple Floyd
09-16-2012, 07:38 PM
There was a general lack of aggression that has plagued this team for a long time. Too long.

On defense we sit back and let other teams pick us apart ad or score key TD's in the closing seconds of half's or games. On offense we get inside the red zone and then for some reason don't have the balls to take a shot at the end zone and instead rely on dink passes and runs and then settle for FG's if we can't drive it in methodically.

I wholly believe it is a continuation of the same philosophy left over from the Childress era that still hasn't been purged from the system.

We are a young team and like I said earlier, we are going to lose games but man, this was a worse team than us last year and we need to handle those games. They were younger at many positions than we were, they were without Freeney, lost their starting center,have a rookie QB and a completely new coaching staff so in this case we were the experienced team.

If this team was too much then next week is going to be a huge hurdle.

singersp
09-16-2012, 07:41 PM
Ponder continues to improve. He looked decent this game - not great, but not bad. 25/35 (71.4%) for 245 and 2 TDs. But there was one INT that was dropped, and he was pretty lucky on the first TD (that was fun to watch though). He needs to continue to improve if we are going to be contenders next year.

Bottom line for me - Frazier's leash is getting very, very short. Our DL was shut down by a hodge podge OL, and our offense was sluggish despite having Rudolph, Ponder, Harvin, and Peterson all on the field. I see too much talent there for our offense to be going three and out against a poor defense. I put this loss on the coach.

The coaches definitely need to take some of the blame, especially with some of the play calls. Ponder completed 71% of his passes, but they weren't going very far down field with them. It seemed like most of the completed passes thru the first 3 quarters were either behind the LOS or about 5 yards beyond it. Thank God for YAC.

Not sure why they weren't taking more shots longer down the field, especially when we were down by 2 TD's. They still tried to win it by pounding the ball in the 4th, even though AD wasn't getting us a lot of yards. Also, as the announcers said, the Vikings showed a lack of urgency when they needed to speed it up. That has been a problem for several years now.

We need to play all 4 quarters like we do the last 5 minutes of the game.

Penalties were atrocious! We lost more yards due to penalties than we did rushing the ball with AD, Gerhart, Harvin & Ponder combined.

Minniman
09-16-2012, 07:51 PM
1. We are a too dependant on Percy Harvin, he is a great player, but if he is going to have to carry the load for the entire season, he is going to go down.. We saw it at the end of the game.
Harvin is a beast. He may be both the best receiver and best running back on the team. He also is not a very big guy and cannot take the punishment inflicted on him if no one else steps up.


2. Our offensive playboook seems so limited.. We run Peterson, dash it to Harvin and a screen to Toby.. that's pretty much all we got.
The Vikings run a similar offense that they ran under Childress. Flat passes, dumps, and some runs. They have switched to the screen on many 3rd and long plays rather than the draw.

Are downfield plays even called, or is Ponder just to slow going through his reads? I do not know.


3. Why is Jarius Wright inactive all the time?, we need a guy who can come in and make some plays outside of Harvin so why not give him a chance.
We do not know if Wright would be any better. He was not a gamebreaker in the preseason.


4. Is the 25 million dollar man John Carlson going to show up at all?.. He has had 2 games and 0 catches.. I rarely see him on the field, what is going on???
Carlson is still learning the offense. He was out for most of the preseason. He was not a superstar before coming here, so I do not expect him to take over a game.


5. Defense can't let up on the final drive.. That was hard to watch.. a rookie QB easily dropping off 2 20-yard passes and then a dump penalty to set up the game-winner.
I have no confidence in the Vikings pass protection. I do not like the scheme, and the Vikings play it even more loose with the clock running down. Prevent the win twice in two weeks. The Vikings just got lucky last week because they faced last season's worst starter in overtime.


6. Jared Allen, we need him to do something.. he was close to getting a sack today, but him getting 22 last year and not one in the first 2 games so far is not acceptable.. Today he was 1 on 1 with their LT lots of times and still nothing.
Jared Allen takes himself out of so many plays that he may as well be on the sideline. He has to change his technique from play to play and swim and cut more. Allen cannot just do the long outside rush play after play like he did today.

rednorsk
09-16-2012, 08:12 PM
In my complaints above I forgot to say that we have one linebacker only!!!!!

kevoncox
09-16-2012, 08:26 PM
Harvin is a beast. He may be both the best receiver and best running back on the team. He also is not a very big guy and cannot take the punishment inflicted on him if no one else steps up.


The Vikings run a similar offense that they ran under Childress. Flat passes, dumps, and some runs. They have switched to the screen on many 3rd and long plays rather than the draw.

Are downfield plays even called, or is Ponder just to slow going through his reads? I do not know.


We do not know if Wright would be any better. He was not a gamebreaker in the preseason.


Carlson is still learning the offense. He was out for most of the preseason. He was not a superstar before coming here, so I do not expect him to take over a game.


I have no confidence in the Vikings pass protection. I do not like the scheme, and the Vikings play it even more loose with the clock running down. Prevent the win twice in two weeks. The Vikings just got lucky last week because they faced last season's worst starter in overtime.


Jared Allen takes himself out of so many plays that he may as well be on the sideline. He has to change his technique from play to play and swim and cut more. Allen cannot just do the long outside rush play after play like he did today.

We stink....Refs stink... this season stinks.... that is all

thorshammer
09-16-2012, 08:39 PM
I was disappointed too. I think the real problem is they won't take the cuffs off Ponder until to late in the game. The play calling for 90% of the game was ultra conservative. You can not win if you play scared from the outset of the game. If Ponder's the guy let him play and learn. I think we'd be better off. Percy is amazing. AD didn't get enough touches. Our D-Line is not getting enough pressure which exposes the weakness in our secondary. I hope the coaches WTFU!!

vikesrgreat2
09-16-2012, 08:42 PM
Bottom line, this loss has to hurt REALLY BADLY!!! This was, in my opinion, a very winnable game. However, the Vikings beat themselves with personal foul penalties at crucial junctures of the game, not forcing turnovers (again!), and not stetching the field with the passing game. Despite all these problems, it took an end-of-game 53-yard field goal for the Colts to win the game.

It's my hope that these mistakes are correctable for the next game. We will need to address these areas to have a ghost of a chance against a great 49ers team. SKOL VIKINGS!!!

vikesrgreat2
09-16-2012, 08:44 PM
For those of you who are not fans of the way the Vikings are coached, I watched the game today with my stepparents. My stepfather has been diagnosed with dementia. During the game, he stated that "the Vikings need a new coach or something". FYI for what it's worth...

singersp
09-16-2012, 08:51 PM
....Refs stink...

Actually we got away with 3 plays in the first quarter that should have been called against us.

We seem to get more breaks with the replacement refs that we do bad calls against us.

MaxVike
09-16-2012, 09:08 PM
Penalties...come on man.

We need a vertical threat, desperately.

Ponder seems to continue to improve...got a couple of breaks on the way to a 114 QB Rating. I expect more big plays when Simpson is on the field.

Will this Team EVER intercept a pass?

Percy is a star, I hope they are negotiating now.

49er game will be ugly.

Who do we want with the #1 pick?

PurplePowerPunch
09-16-2012, 09:35 PM
All Day needs more carries. 3rd and 16 we run a screen play to Toby Gearhart. Awful play-calling Musgrave! Also, How many times is Winfield gonna keep getting beat deep? Clearly he doesn't have the speed to be in Man-to-Man coverage anymore! So sick of losing these close games. SKOL VIKINGS!

NDVikingFan66
09-16-2012, 09:38 PM
This was a game I had going into our W column, and this really hurt. We are not a good team, and many of us know that, but we are a team that has the potential to win the games we should. This was a should win game, and we lost.

This might be a very long season.

battleaxe4cheese
09-16-2012, 10:28 PM
Brutal.

We are going to get destroyed next week. Its going to be ugly.

I cant understand this mediocre 5 yard pass offense. The only thing I can think of is nobody is getting open down field. I hope this is the case and not a horribly designed and executed dink and dunk wco.

What is
Rudolph doing? What did he have 2 catches today? What are the tight ends doing in general? Yikes.

Wide receivers? Do we have any on the roster?

Do we have any safeties on the team? What is Harrison doing back there? A couple of deep throws by Luck and I couldnt even see a safety anywhere on the screen. What are they doing back there playing patty cake?
I dont mind a bad angle or missed tackle from the rookies but they were nowhere to be found!

More to follow, I am annoyed.

LIVike
09-16-2012, 10:34 PM
The penalties were just horrible. Showed a complete lack of focus especially the two that extended the drive in the third. Just frustrating to watch.

I dont understand why we dont use Rudolph more. He has great hands and can move the chains but he gets targeted two or three times a game.

Ponder looked good again. The fumble again was bad but overall it was decent. I hope when Simpson comes back they start to be a little more aggressive and hopefully it takes some of the burden off of Harvin.

Walsh again great to see touch backs. Kluwe had some bad punts as well.

I dont understand why they cant play like they did for the last 8 or so minutes of the fourth quarter minus the colts field goal drive. For those few minutes they looked like a good team on both sides of the ball.

kevoncox
09-16-2012, 10:42 PM
This is what happens when you pay a TE 25 million instead of a WR. Should have been contempt with Rudolph, and spent that money to lure either a prime time guard or a blooming WR ( many of which were available) Instead we signed a TE who has 0 catches and can't sniff the field. 5 million a year for a back up TE. Sounds about right.

skolgirl77
09-17-2012, 02:21 AM
Frustrating to say the least! Terrible clock management, few of us watching agreed we need to hire someone to strictly watch the clock.AD seemed non existent after such a promising fresh start last week. Stupid mistakes with waaay too many penalties. This team is better than who showed up today. Thats what is most frustrating we have zero consistency, if your gonna be mediocre at least do it on a regular basis. How do you not play with a sense of urgency when u are down by 2 tds??? Next week I'd gonna be super ugly unless something miraculous happens like in game 3 vs the 49s back in 09..who can forget that!!!!! As always SKOL!

Marrdro
09-17-2012, 06:28 AM
I'm not gonna go down the whole "Coaching thing". I promised to stay off of them until about week 6 or so.....comeon week six....:)

This loss lies squarely on that which none of you ever seem to want to agree with me on.......the DL.

Please, someone come and try to convince me that the DL is playing great like they did last week. Hell, for the last 3 years for that matter.

This isn't a DB issue. They are doing their job. INT's come in this scheme when the DL does thiers.

(On a side note....were are all the posts about how Winny let receivers get behind him on big plays this week? You can add him to the shitcan list with JA, K-dub and Evans).

This isn't a LB issue. They are not only doing their job but part of the DL job as well.

At some point we need to realize that Kevin is done. JA can't beat a T alone and Guion isn't a 0 tech.

We need to, at least for the rest of the year start to run the young guys out there. Give Griff some reps at RDE or put him in at LDE and let Rob start at RDE. Move Guion to the 3 tech were he belongs and find a 0 tech to put in the middle.

Absolutely horrendous to watch the worst OL in the league, lose their starting Center and still keep a clean pocket for the QB to walk around in and wait for a receiver to come open. Horrendous.

But hey, the DL is playing great.....(If you don't recognize that as sarcasm them I guess you think its true).

On a side note, I was able to watch the Vikes play with my grandson Peyton for the first time. At less than a week old, even he said we have a crappy DL.
427

singersp
09-17-2012, 08:09 AM
This loss lies squarely on that which none of you ever seem to want to agree with me on.......the DL.

Please, someone come and try to convince me that the DL is playing great like they did last week. Hell, for the last 3 years for that matter

I'm pretty sure our DL led the league with sacks last year with 50. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't get sacks without bringing pressure.

What we have is DB's playing prevent defense that are off their WR's thus allowing QB's who are flushed out of the pocket by our DL men, to hit their targets on the run. That is not the fault of the DL.

Purple Floyd
09-17-2012, 08:27 AM
With no decent MLB or secondary play the defense is easy to exploit and will fail all year.

singersp
09-17-2012, 09:05 AM
At some point we need to realize that Guion isn't a 0 tech.


The problem is your looking at things in the wrong light. Very few of our starters or backups for that matter should me measured against starting caliber players. That's because they aren't to that level yet.

Look at the kid along with the rest in the light that they have played at the next level, showed promise and have the talent and upside to get to the level we want them to in a year or two.

Until you start looking at things that way, your just going to be disappointed all the time.

Marrdro - circa September 2012

VKG4LFE
09-17-2012, 10:44 AM
The fact that we were in the game is unbelievable. Ponder is playing better i'll give him that, but nobody is afraid of him. Anyone notice how awful his play action fakes are? Anyone realize his longest completion is 29 yards....29 freakin yards. Qbs do that with their eyes closed. Good thing we drafted brad johnson 2.0 w the 12th overall pick.

The defensive numbers are so deceptive. The only time we slowed down their o (w a freakin makeshift line mind you) was when they went into prevent offense mode to burn clock.

You can count on us being 1-3 in a couple weeks and drafting early in the first round.

AngloVike
09-17-2012, 11:08 AM
I'm not gonna go down the whole "Coaching thing". I promised to stay off of them until about week 6 or so.....comeon week six....:)


well I'll go early on that - as my wife would testify to - two things indicated coaching to me. Firstly penalties - odd ones I'll tolerate but when they actually allow the opposition to continue drives when they should have been stopped then I'll get mad about that. I'm all for aggressive play but dumbass hits, tackles etc aren't the way to go - yes that is on the player ( as he's the one committing the offence ) but also on the coaching staff for not jumping on said players when they come off the pitch.
Secondly interest in the game and wanting to get on with it. It was especially noticeable in the 4th quarter when, not only were we trailing the score, we didn't seem to hustle up to the line to run the next play. Hello?? I thought you're there to play football and not out for a gentle afternoon stroll - hell my wife walked quicker than that over the weekend when we were away and she's not in good health !
The offense was that slow that even the FOX muppets calling the game noticed it so you know it was really slow.

Much as I like Frazier this team is starting to take on his personality, which at present is somewhere between a zombie and 'body on morgue table' in CSI. At present he and the entire coaching staff are coaching themselves out of a job come December.

TeamSoftware
09-17-2012, 11:12 AM
We are tied for first in the NFCN!

When you are a Vikings fan of late you need to savor the little things in life.

--Scott

tastywaves
09-17-2012, 11:16 AM
1. We are a too dependant on Percy Harvin, he is a great player, but if he is going to have to carry the load for the entire season, he is going to go down.. We saw it at the end of the game..

2. Our offensive playboook seems so limited.. We run Peterson, dash it to Harvin and a screen to Toby.. thats pretty much all we got..

3. Why is Jarius Wright inactive all the time?, we need a guy who can come in and make som plays outside of Harvin so why not give him a chance

4. Is the 25 million dollar man John Carlson going to show up at all?.. He has had 2 games and 0 catches.. I rarely see him on the field, what is going on???

5. Defense can't let up on the final drive.. That was hard to watch.. a rookie QB easily dropping off 2 20-yard passes and then a dump penalty to set up the game-winner..

6. Jared Allen, we need him to do something.. he was close to getting a sack today, but him getting 22 last year and not one in the first 2 games so far is not acceptable.. Today he was 1 on 1 with their LT lots of times and still nothing.

7. Penalties.. that killed us today.. The drive where they scored a field goal instead of punting.. That was the 3 points today that gave them the win..

8. Lots to improve and a hard game next week vs the 49ers.. Looks like 1-2 but in the NFL anything can happen.. Like the Cardinals beating the Patriots today..

Good post skum, pretty much sums up what I saw. Feel bad for Harvin, that dude has been our MVP over the last two weeks and his body is getting used up fast.

It was just week 2 where teams are all trying to get their act together. I expected a close game and saw one. Penalties were the real issue with this game, we are not good enough to overcome all the miscues. Luck reminded me a lot of Aaron Rodgers yesterday, even when we got pressure on him, he was fast enough to avoid the sack and make plays. Of course, every QB reminds me of Aaron Rodgers when they play the Vikings....hmmm.

Other than seeing Ponder improve on the CMacD QB Rating chart, things don't look much different than last year at this point. It is still early though, and I will sit back and see what unfolds over the next several games. If nothing changes, the coaching staff should be where all eyes are focused.

I'm actually pretty interested in next week's game against San Fran at home. Although, most likely another conservative game plan coming from Frazier and Musgrave. Should be a much better measuring stick to see where we are at and whether full on depression is in order.

tastywaves
09-17-2012, 11:19 AM
We are tied for first in the NFCN!

When you are a Vikings fan of late you need to savor the little things in life.

--Scott

Yepper, and if we beat San Fran next week, we'll be the first team in our division to do it. Truly worthy of class of the North title.

tarkenton10
09-17-2012, 11:47 AM
I'm pretty sure our DL led the league with sacks last year with 50. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't get sacks without bringing pressure.

What we have is DB's playing prevent defense that are off their WR's thus allowing QB's who are flushed out of the pocket by our DL men, to hit their targets on the run. That is not the fault of the DL.

Did you lose a girl to Marrdro or something? You seem to hammer his analysis no matter what. Marrdro makes some very good points (my friend, Marrdroese) and they are:

1. We need a warpig-Our D-line has gone down hill since when, what happened that you can actually markedly see, Fhat Pat's departure. Since that has happened our D whether it be run D or pass D has gone down hill.

2. We need a Mike linebacker in the worst way. I take that back we one in the worst way.

3. We need some ball hawing safeties!!

If you want the T2 to work you have to be stong up the middle on D IMO! That pretty much goes for any sport.

NodakPaul
09-17-2012, 11:52 AM
Before the season started, I thought we would probably go 6-10. And I still think so. We are going to lose a couple we should have won, like yesterday. But we will also win a couple we should probably lose. So it will even out.

Bottom line - we are playing like the 6-10 team I expected us to be. I have my reservations as to whether or not Frazier can get us past that, but I am going to do my best to give him more of the season...

purplehelmut
09-17-2012, 12:01 PM
Bad front office, bad coaching, bad players equals a bad record. I'm hunkering down, again, for another woeful campaign. This team isn't even fun to watch. The defense can't play and the offense is just plain Jane boring and unimaginative. Look at the teams that have recently succeed- NYG, SF, GB, NE, and NO. Guess what? They have excellent coaches. We do not. I'm officially off the Leslie bandwagon. I've seen nothing exceptional so far. I hope I'm wrong. BTW, you can see what the loss of Sean Peyton has done to NO. Even Brees can't carry them.

kingpin9995
09-17-2012, 01:12 PM
Bad front office, bad coaching, bad players equals a bad record. I'm hunkering down, again, for another woeful campaign. This team isn't even fun to watch. The defense can't play and the offense is just plain Jane boring and unimaginative. Look at the teams that have recently succeed- NYG, SF, GB, NE, and NO. Guess what? They have excellent coaches. We do not. I'm officially off the Leslie bandwagon. I've seen nothing exceptional so far. I hope I'm wrong. BTW, you can see what the loss of Sean Peyton has done to NO. Even Brees can't carry them.

So we've played a woeful Jacksonville team, and another bad team in Indy that had three starters on the o line out. Can you imagine our team with three starting o lineman out? No Freeney, hello. No Collie, and about 4 rooks playing, and we can't beat THEM. I see Joe Montana Gabbert against us, threw for 50 yards yesterday. That shows how bad this team really is. We pay 5 mil a year to a tight end who's name has not been called yet in a game, while we needed playmaking receivers or a d back that can actually intercept a ball. It's going to be one long year boys. Ponder has happy feet and refuses to stand in the pocket for more than a blink.

This team needed to deal Allen for draft picks. He's useless on this team that is not going to win more than 4 games. Winfield can't cover my mom, and Cook is a head case, but goofy Frasier, who only has a head coaching job because of the Rooney rule will refuse to put in the young guys on a regular basis because he knows he has to win at least 6 to keep his job.

This team is paper thin as far as depth and as soon as we lose a Harvin, Peterson, it's going to get really ugly. I'm sure glad I went golfing yesterday instead of watching the same old boring Vikings. They truly are a waste of a beautiful fall day. Face facts, this team is in the bottom three in the league. It won't win one Central game which will extend our great record in the division for straight losses.

NodakPaul
09-17-2012, 01:27 PM
Bad front office, bad coaching, bad players equals a bad record. I'm hunkering down, again, for another woeful campaign. This team isn't even fun to watch. The defense can't play and the offense is just plain Jane boring and unimaginative. Look at the teams that have recently succeed- NYG, SF, GB, NE, and NO. Guess what? They have excellent coaches. We do not. I'm officially off the Leslie bandwagon. I've seen nothing exceptional so far. I hope I'm wrong. BTW, you can see what the loss of Sean Peyton has done to NO. Even Brees can't carry them.

I am happy with the front office so far, and I see a lot of good players on our team - Ponder, AD, Harvin, JA, Smith, Kalil, Simpson, etc... But your point of bad coaching rings true...

NodakPaul
09-17-2012, 01:29 PM
So we've played a woeful Jacksonville team, and another bad team in Indy that had three starters on the o line out. Can you imagine our team with three starting o lineman out? No Freeney, hello. No Collie, and about 4 rooks playing, and we can't beat THEM. I see Joe Montana Gabbert against us, threw for 50 yards yesterday. That shows how bad this team really is. We pay 5 mil a year to a tight end who's name has not been called yet in a game, while we needed playmaking receivers or a d back that can actually intercept a ball. It's going to be one long year boys. Ponder has happy feet and refuses to stand in the pocket for more than a blink.

This team needed to deal Allen for draft picks. He's useless on this team that is not going to win more than 4 games. Winfield can't cover my mom, and Cook is a head case, but goofy Frasier, who only has a head coaching job because of the Rooney rule will refuse to put in the young guys on a regular basis because he knows he has to win at least 6 to keep his job.

This team is paper thin as far as depth and as soon as we lose a Harvin, Peterson, it's going to get really ugly. I'm sure glad I went golfing yesterday instead of watching the same old boring Vikings. They truly are a waste of a beautiful fall day. Face facts, this team is in the bottom three in the league. It won't win one Central game which will extend our great record in the division for straight losses.

I actually doubt that the Rooney rule has anything to do with the fact that Frazier is our head coach.

But your statement about dealing Allen isn't a bad one. I don't think it would happen, but it would benefit both Allen and the Vikings.

idahovikefan7
09-17-2012, 01:33 PM
I want to see them play 4 strong quarters of football. It's lik they swapped what was done last year. Starting the first half completely slow and cold then wake up and play hot the second half.

NDVikingFan66
09-17-2012, 06:12 PM
Before the season started, I thought we would probably go 6-10. And I still think so. We are going to lose a couple we should have won, like yesterday. But we will also win a couple we should probably lose. So it will even out.

Bottom line - we are playing like the 6-10 team I expected us to be. I have my reservations as to whether or not Frazier can get us past that, but I am going to do my best to give him more of the season...

Paul

I too thought we would 6 games, but that was beating the teams we were supposed to beat. Indy was one of those teams. At this point I have no idea how we double our win total from last year.

The one thing that really frustrated me yesterday, because it is something that the average eye can see and relate to, is the complete lack of urgency when we were down to scores. Walking to the huddle, slow to get plays in, etc, etc. That pissed me off.

I don't know everything about schemes, why we do what we do, personnel packages, etc, etc, etc. But I do know hustle, and we lacked it. I put that right on the coaching staff.

I do not like the coaching carousel we may be becoming, but I am not sure I can handle Frazier and Musgrave all season long. They may be the nicest guys in the world, and maybe in a different time/location they will be better than what they have shown, but now may not be their time.

NDVikingFan66
09-17-2012, 06:15 PM
I am happy with the front office so far, and I see a lot of good players on our team - Ponder, AD, Harvin, JA, Smith, Kalil, Simpson, etc... But your point of bad coaching rings true...

I too think we have done OK with some of our draft choices and signings, but not perfect. I really do not know where that blame lies. Yes, this year Rick is the go to guy, but what kind of input do the coaches have in that process. Some, I am sure. On top of that, what part is coaching, and what part is just poor/great athletes?

If we have good players, why are we a bad team?

Purple Floyd
09-17-2012, 06:23 PM
I am happy with the front office so far, and I see a lot of good players on our team - Ponder, AD, Harvin, JA, Smith, Kalil, Simpson, etc... But your point of bad coaching rings true...

The players you listed- All but Simpson either were picked in the first round or we gave up 1st round picks plus to get. I agree that at least with the 1st round picks we have done very well, better than in the past even. But after the first round we have been very very bad at getting quality role playing starters. Those second, third and later picks are the bread and butter that build the depth in the roster and all of the misses have really taken a toll on the depth of our roster and that is something we cannot afford to continue and we cannot fix quickly which leaves us in a situation where we will need some time to get out of the mess.

With the right personnel dept and the right coaching staff we could shorten that and make the most out of what we have but I just don't see these guys as the ones to make that happen. Hopefully I am wrong because if I am right the stadium will be a few years old before we are in a position to contend.

NodakPaul
09-17-2012, 06:31 PM
The players you listed- All but Simpson either were picked in the first round or we gave up 1st round picks plus to get. I agree that at least with the 1st round picks we have done very well, better than in the past even. But after the first round we have been very very bad at getting quality role playing starters. Those second, third and later picks are the bread and butter that build the depth in the roster and all of the misses have really taken a toll on the depth of our roster and that is something we cannot afford to continue and we cannot fix quickly which leaves us in a situation where we will need some time to get out of the mess.

With the right personnel dept and the right coaching staff we could shorten that and make the most out of what we have but I just don't see these guys as the ones to make that happen. Hopefully I am wrong because if I am right the stadium will be a few years old before we are in a position to contend.

I see what you're saying, and I agree that we haven't seen the talent we need out of 2, 3, and 4th rounders. I am hoping that this years draft pans out better, but it is too early to tell. Robinson looks promising, for a start.

But you are right, it is going to take us some time to get out of the mess that the TOA put us in. I think that Spielman has IMHO earned his place for another year or two at least. Frazier has not done that yet.

Purple Floyd
09-17-2012, 07:30 PM
By saying that then are you blaming all of the low to mid round misses on Childress and giving Spielman a pass on that era?

Who are the guys in this draft after the first round that you are seeing as players that are going to become solid role players? I will give you Walsh, he looks like a keeper but Wright, Robinson and co. don't look any different than what we have seen in the past.

singersp
09-17-2012, 07:39 PM
Did you lose a girl to Marrdro or something? You seem to hammer his analysis no matter what. Marrdro makes some very good points (my friend, Marrdroese) and they are:

1. We need a warpig-Our D-line has gone down hill since when, what happened that you can actually markedly see, Fhat Pat's departure. Since that has happened our D whether it be run D or pass D has gone down hill.

2. We need a Mike linebacker in the worst way. I take that back we one in the worst way.

3. We need some ball hawing safeties!!

If you want the T2 to work you have to be strong up the middle on D IMO! That pretty much goes for any sport.



So, if in order for the T2 to work at all it requires this beast of a warpig, which we don't have & a speedy MLB with great tackling abilities, which we don't have, then why are we trying to run it?

Clearly, you're both saying we haven't got the players to run it & if that's the case, we shouldn't be running a scheme we don't have the players to run it.

Teams don't try to win ball games with a running attack, continually pounding the ball, if they haven't got a decent RB.

Even if we had said warpig & got even more pressure on the QB than we already are, it doesn't change the fact that the QB's will still complete passes on the run to his intended receivers because our DB's are often times leaving them way too much room.

And when our safties are playing prevent defense to avoid giving up the big play, it's hard for them to be "ball hawking". We had a ball hawking safety a few years back on our team, incidentally Marrdro wanted him gone, but our defensive coach hand cuffed his ball hawking abilities in the name of the T2.

That D-coach was Frazier.

NodakPaul
09-17-2012, 07:51 PM
By saying that then are you blaming all of the low to mid round misses on Childress and giving Spielman a pass on that era?

Who are the guys in this draft after the first round that you are seeing as players that are going to become solid role players? I will give you Walsh, he looks like a keeper but Wright, Robinson and co. don't look any different than what we have seen in the past.

I don't put it all on Childress - I put it on an ineffective system made up of compromises. When nobody is in charge and all authority is averaged out you get players that are just that - average. With a single person in charge he is better able to make personnel decisions that fit his vision. No whether that vision works out or not remains to be seen, but at least it is a single vision, not three.

And I actually like Robinson as a pick, although it is early to tell. If we end up with 4 starters out of this year's draft I would be happy.

Purple Floyd
09-17-2012, 08:18 PM
I don't put it all on Childress - I put it on an ineffective system made up of compromises. When nobody is in charge and all authority is averaged out you get players that are just that - average.

I agree with you on the premise, although I am not sure that there was much compromise in terms of talent. I think it was more a case of Childress getting the players he wanted and Spielman occasionally bringing in a guy he wanted and Childress stonewalling them if he didn't like them.





With a single person in charge he is better able to make personnel decisions that fit his vision. No whether that vision works out or not remains to be seen, but at least it is a single vision, not three.

I agree with that 100% but I strongly believe that we didn't really fix our problem because in the end Spielman didn't get to bring in his own staff but rather Wilf selected the staff that is charged with implementing the scheme and the talent and Spielman has no control over the coaches, and the coaches don't have any control over the players that are brought in ( At least on the surface, they may collaborate but it would be outside the defined responsibilities).

I think that sets up just as bad of a scenario as we had before but just shifting things to a different rung on the ladder.


And I actually like Robinson as a pick, although it is early to tell. If we end up with 4 starters out of this year's draft I would be happy.

Yeah, if it is 4 good starters and not 2 starters and one Ryan Cook and one Asher Allen.

battleaxe4cheese
09-17-2012, 08:21 PM
Did you lose a girl to Marrdro or something? You seem to hammer his analysis no matter what. Marrdro makes some very good points (my friend, Marrdroese) and they are:

1. We need a warpig-Our D-line has gone down hill since when, what happened that you can actually markedly see, Fhat Pat's departure. Since that has happened our D whether it be run D or pass D has gone down hill.

2. We need a Mike linebacker in the worst way. I take that back we one in the worst way.

3. We need some ball hawing safeties!!

If you want the T2 to work you have to be strong up the middle on D IMO! That pretty much goes for any sport.



So, if in order for the T2 to work at all it requires this beast of a warpig, which we don't have & a speedy MLB with great tackling abilities, which we don't have, then why are we trying to run it?

Clearly, you're both saying we haven't got the players to run it & if that's the case, we shouldn't be running a scheme we don't have the players to run it.

Teams don't try to win ball games with a running attack, continually pounding the ball, if they haven't got a decent RB.

Even if we had said warpig & got even more pressure on the QB than we already are, it doesn't change the fact that the QB's will still complete passes on the run to his intended receivers because our DB's are often times leaving them way too much room.

And when our safties are playing prevent defense to avoid giving up the big play, it's hard for them to be "ball hawking". We had a ball hawking safety a few years back on our team, incidentally Marrdro wanted him gone, but our defensive coach hand cuffed his ball hawking abilities in the name of the T2.

That D-coach was Frazier.



Couldn't agree more Singer. The problem is though we have to run this scheme. It's the most basic scheme you can run and it is doomed to die like the death of a thousand cuts.
This defense can win championships but the players have to be a perfect fit. We don't have anything close at this point.


The Tampa 2 is a defense for a team lacking talent. It's many small cuts and hope you don't bleed to death. You have to cut your opponents deeper and at this point we are using knives made of cork.

Minniman
09-17-2012, 08:36 PM
The Tampa 2 is a defense for a team lacking talent. It's many small cuts and hope you don't bleed to death. You have to cut your opponents deeper and at this point we are using knives made of cork.
In my opinion, the opposite is more valid; the Tampa 2 needs extremely good defensive backs and a line that can provide pressure on any down. It also needs coaches that are willing to allow the defensive backs to attack the ball in their zones.

Passive defenses, no matter what they are called, will be destroyed by the better offensive minds in the NFL.

Purple Floyd
09-17-2012, 09:00 PM
In my opinion, the opposite is more valid; the Tampa 2 needs extremely good defensive backs and a line that can provide pressure on any down. It also needs coaches that are willing to allow the defensive backs to attack the ball in their zones.

Passive defenses, no matter what they are called, will be destroyed by the better offensive minds in the NFL.


I am sorta tracking with your line of thinking. Of course in this day and age where passing is becoming more and more prominent it seems that you either build up your offense in the hopes of winning the nuclear arms race or you beef up your defenses and hope you can take away their attack. I spent a lot of time in the off season looking for ways to counter the high powered offenses and still feel that with our current set of talent that we should have went DB in the 1st round and built up the defense with top talent instead of taking the OL but time will tell. My theory was that the LT, while important can only impact 1 defensive player on any given play while a shut down corner can take away a whole side of a field, which can give the DL more flex in how they attack the QB.

In the end if we are going to be a rushing, ball control, TE heavy offense we NEED to have a top notch defense with great coaching and great talent or we go nowhere. It doesn't cut it to have second rate LB's and third rate DB's nor can we have coaches who are not the best of the best. Right now we got nuthin.

Marrdro
09-18-2012, 05:42 AM
Couldn't agree more Singer. The problem is though we have to run this scheme. It's the most basic scheme you can run and it is doomed to die like the death of a thousand cuts.
This defense can win championships but the players have to be a perfect fit. We don't have anything close at this point.


The Tampa 2 is a defense for a team lacking talent. It's many small cuts and hope you don't bleed to death. You have to cut your opponents deeper and at this point we are using knives made of cork.
Lets be clear on one point.....We run the C2 not the T2 and there are distinct differences between the two.

One of which is what kindof MLB we use and how we use him.

Someone go find that thread I posted this summer on this very same subject so that we are all talking off the same sheet of music again. (for once).

Marrdro
09-18-2012, 05:46 AM
So, if in order for the T2 to work at all it requires this beast of a warpig, which we don't have & a speedy MLB with great tackling abilities, which we don't have, then why are we trying to run it?

Clearly, you're both saying we haven't got the players to run it & if that's the case, we shouldn't be running a scheme we don't have the players to run it.

Teams don't try to win ball games with a running attack, continually pounding the ball, if they haven't got a decent RB.

Even if we had said warpig & got even more pressure on the QB than we already are, it doesn't change the fact that the QB's will still complete passes on the run to his intended receivers because our DB's are often times leaving them way too much room.

And when our safties are playing prevent defense to avoid giving up the big play, it's hard for them to be "ball hawking". We had a ball hawking safety a few years back on our team, incidentally Marrdro wanted him gone, but our defensive coach hand cuffed his ball hawking abilities in the name of the T2.

That D-coach was Frazier.
You have completely missed my points and you clearly don't understand what the heck our scheme is supposed to be doing.

And I didn't want our "Ball Hawking" safety gone for any other reason than he didn't want to play in the scheme (not my fault) and he was a ex PUKER (again, not my fault).

Absolutely stupid to have a cat on the team that refuses to play the scheme the coaches want him to play for goodness sake.

Look, it isn't like I'm in love with the scheme for cripes sake. Not sure why you have a bug up your ass trying to make it out that way.

All I'm doing is pointing out the issues we have trying to run that scheme. Pop your head out of your ass, get the burr out from under your fricken saddle and you might just fricken see that.

Marrdro
09-18-2012, 05:53 AM
I am sorta tracking with your line of thinking. Of course in this day and age where passing is becoming more and more prominent it seems that you either build up your offense in the hopes of winning the nuclear arms race or you beef up your defenses and hope you can take away their attack. I spent a lot of time in the off season looking for ways to counter the high powered offenses and still feel that with our current set of talent that we should have went DB in the 1st round and built up the defense with top talent instead of taking the OL but time will tell. My theory was that the LT, while important can only impact 1 defensive player on any given play while a shut down corner can take away a whole side of a field, which can give the DL more flex in how they attack the QB.

In the end if we are going to be a rushing, ball control, TE heavy offense we NEED to have a top notch defense with great coaching and great talent or we go nowhere. It doesn't cut it to have second rate LB's and third rate DB's nor can we have coaches who are not the best of the best. Right now we got nuthin.
Excellent discsussion points my friend. I would have went either WR (score more points/give the QB a target who gets open) or DL (and not another 3 tech).

I'm kindof sick and tired of watching them try to fix the scheme by throwing DB's at it instead of just drafting one guy.

Think about how good our D would be with a cat like Raji, Suh, Poe, ect.

Something to watch that I did for the first time this weekend, watch how hard our LB'rs work to get to the gap. Chad and Erin get there, but they usually get there after fighting off a blocker. The reason they have to do that is because guys like JA, K-dubb, Guion aren't demanding doubles.

Again, something someone pointed out that I've never paid attention to.

Marrdro
09-18-2012, 05:56 AM
I too think we have done OK with some of our draft choices and signings, but not perfect. I really do not know where that blame lies. Yes, this year Rick is the go to guy, but what kind of input do the coaches have in that process. Some, I am sure. On top of that, what part is coaching, and what part is just poor/great athletes?

If we have good players, why are we a bad team?
Agree'd. One thing to think about, I wonder how developed those cats would be under a different coaching staff?

That, by the way wasn't an open hack on the coaches for those that are counting. Just an observation (come on week 6).

Marrdro
09-18-2012, 06:02 AM
Did you lose a girl to Marrdro or something?
LOL, you crack me up. Don't worry my friend. Been getting PM's from others as to whats up with our good friend Singer. He is just frustrated with the team, as we all are.



You seem to hammer his analysis no matter what. Marrdro makes some very good points (my friend, Marrdroese) and they are:

1. We need a warpig-Our D-line has gone down hill since when, what happened that you can actually markedly see, Fhat Pat's departure. Since that has happened our D whether it be run D or pass D has gone down hill.

2. We need a Mike linebacker in the worst way. I take that back we one in the worst way.

3. We need some ball hawing safeties!!

If you want the T2 to work you have to be stong up the middle on D IMO! That pretty much goes for any sport.
Thats it in a nutshell. I agree with all of that with a couple of exceptions...

a. I think we have the S's. They are just learning. The lack of the Warpig kindof hurts that progression, as it does with our younger DB's as well.

b. I think that we are putting to much emphasis on the MLB. Again one has to realize that we run the C2 not the T2. For some reason the difference between the two has been missed on this page.

c. We play alot more Man to Man than most recognize as well. Whinny got beat (early in the game) on a man up coverage.

On a side note, thanks for the backup with our good friend Steve. Give him some time. Again, frustration is tough to deal with. Some handle it better than others. :)

Marrdro
09-18-2012, 06:07 AM
well I'll go early on that - as my wife would testify to - two things indicated coaching to me. Firstly penalties - odd ones I'll tolerate but when they actually allow the opposition to continue drives when they should have been stopped then I'll get mad about that. I'm all for aggressive play but dumbass hits, tackles etc aren't the way to go - yes that is on the player ( as he's the one committing the offence ) but also on the coaching staff for not jumping on said players when they come off the pitch.
Secondly interest in the game and wanting to get on with it. It was especially noticeable in the 4th quarter when, not only were we trailing the score, we didn't seem to hustle up to the line to run the next play. Hello?? I thought you're there to play football and not out for a gentle afternoon stroll - hell my wife walked quicker than that over the weekend when we were away and she's not in good health !
The offense was that slow that even the FOX muppets calling the game noticed it so you know it was really slow.

Much as I like Frazier this team is starting to take on his personality, which at present is somewhere between a zombie and 'body on morgue table' in CSI. At present he and the entire coaching staff are coaching themselves out of a job come December.
LOL, I started a new spreadsheet......One for our wives who make good points that are then articulated by their husbands....

Tell your wife she is now the leader on that particular spreadsheet.

JK, back to your one point, penalties....I think the late hit by JA is a very telling one. He started to chirp excuses in the press last week. Before that he was miffed about the thought of rotating him out. Won't be long and the long haired one will probably be all over the coaching staff.

I think we need to get rid of him before that starts.

We would take a huge blow from the fanbase that only looks for big name recognition, but I bet we wouldn't even miss him this year if we plugged Griff into his spot or put Griff on LDE and put Rob over at RDE were he is better suited. That might help K-dubb and Guion a bit.

I'd like to see more Ballard as well. Sure looks like he added the beef to play 3 tech. Saw his number in the backfield late last week.

thorshammer
09-18-2012, 06:38 AM
''We've got to do better,'' coach Leslie Frazier said. ''The way our team is built, we're going to play a lot of close games.'' Quote from an online article. Guess we need to build the team differently. Why not build one to dominate.

singersp
09-18-2012, 06:59 AM
You have completely missed my points and you clearly don't understand what the heck our scheme is supposed to be doing.

And I didn't want our "Ball Hawking" safety gone for any other reason than he didn't want to play in the scheme (not my fault) and he was a ex PUKER (again, not my fault).

Absolutely stupid to have a cat on the team that refuses to play the scheme the coaches want him to play for goodness sake.

Look, it isn't like I'm in love with the scheme for cripes sake. Not sure why you have a bug up your ass trying to make it out that way.

All I'm doing is pointing out the issues we have trying to run that scheme. Pop your head out of your ass, get the burr out from under your fricken saddle and you might just fricken see that.

My head isn't up my ass. You need to take you're blinders off & quit looking solely at the warpig issue. I don't believe our DB's are fine or at the least, the scheme isn't & we are flushing QB's out of the pocket. Why are we settling for DB's that aren't fast enough or athletic enough to play man-to-man?

If you have DB's that can play man-to-man they can play zone as well. If you have DB's that can play zone they may not be able to play man-to-man. Which type of DB do you want, the kind we have or the type that can do it all?

Don't get me wrong, I'd like a beast in the middle that can bring pressure just as much as you do. It would also help us in stopping the run. Reality is though, with todays athletic QB's they are hitting receivers while they are on the run after being flushed out of the pocket & our DB's are leaving them too much room. Result: pass completion.

At the end of the day, right now, today, we have who we have & we need to change the scheme to fit the players we have, rather than continually trying to shove a square peg in a round hole.

tarkenton10
09-18-2012, 08:01 AM
So, if in order for the T2 to work at all it requires this beast of a warpig, which we don't have & a speedy MLB with great tackling abilities, which we don't have, then why are we trying to run it?

Good question!! I think they are trying to get some players like Smith in the secondary but they aren't drafting the players to play this D. I can agree with you on that.


Clearly, you're both saying we haven't got the players to run it & if that's the case, we shouldn't be running a scheme we don't have the players to run it.

Teams don't try to win ball games with a running attack, continually pounding the ball, if they haven't got a decent RB.

Even if we had said warpig & got even more pressure on the QB than we already are, it doesn't change the fact that the QB's will still complete passes on the run to his intended receivers because our DB's are often times leaving them way too much room.

I agree again, I think the coaches are to blame and not the players. Bad D calls in critical situations. I saw in week one a DB gave a WR at least a seven yard cushion on 3rd and 3. You know the quick slant is coming and that's what happened. They need to draft for the scheme but also coach better within the scheme.


And when our safties are playing prevent defense to avoid giving up the big play, it's hard for them to be "ball hawking". We had a ball hawking safety a few years back on our team, incidentally Marrdro wanted him gone, but our defensive coach hand cuffed his ball hawking abilities in the name of the T2.

That D-coach was Frazier.

Coach Frazier is horrible and the only reason he has this job is because Zygie is still paying off Childress. Some idiot gave him an extension and a boatload of money right before they fired him. Once we get Childress off the books YOU CAN BET they will look for a REAL head coach. The Chin maybe, anyone!?!?!?!

tarkenton10
09-18-2012, 08:11 AM
I don't put it all on Childress - I put it on an ineffective system made up of compromises. When nobody is in charge and all authority is averaged out you get players that are just that - average. With a single person in charge he is better able to make personnel decisions that fit his vision. No whether that vision works out or not remains to be seen, but at least it is a single vision, not three.

And I actually like Robinson as a pick, although it is early to tell. If we end up with 4 starters out of this year's draft I would be happy.

I wanted Lavonte David with that pick. He is a WLB that runs like a deer and makes plays! That's right a playmaker on D. Now I didn't mind this pick but in five years when they are both in their primes I would rather have a playmaker then a solid nickel CB.

Purple Floyd
09-18-2012, 08:13 AM
Excellent discsussion points my friend. I would have went either WR (score more points/give the QB a target who gets open) or DL (and not another 3 tech).

I'm kindof sick and tired of watching them try to fix the scheme by throwing DB's at it instead of just drafting one guy.

Think about how good our D would be with a cat like Raji, Suh, Poe, ect.

Something to watch that I did for the first time this weekend, watch how hard our LB'rs work to get to the gap. Chad and Erin get there, but they usually get there after fighting off a blocker. The reason they have to do that is because guys like JA, K-dubb, Guion aren't demanding doubles.

Again, something someone pointed out that I've never paid attention to.

My short and only counter to that is we still sucked in pass protection when we had fat pat. The run protection was at the top but with piss poor secondary play and a NT that was doubled we still made mediocre QB's look like HOF material.....

Purple Floyd
09-18-2012, 08:18 AM
Originally Posted by Marrdro
Think about how good our D would be with a cat like Raji, Suh, Poe, ect.



How good has Detroit's defense held up the past 2 weeks against Bradford and Smith throwing against them? Looks to me like they need better DB's and not that war pig you speak of. And before the War Pig i would throw a franchise MLB in there.

tarkenton10
09-18-2012, 08:24 AM
My head isn't up my ass. You need to take you're blinders off & quit looking solely at the warpig issue. I don't believe our DB's are fine or at the least, the scheme isn't & we are flushing QB's out of the pocket. Why are we settling for DB's that aren't fast enough or athletic enough to play man-to-man?

If you have DB's that can play man-to-man they can play zone as well. If you have DB's that can play zone they may not be able to play man-to-man. Which type of DB do you want, the kind we have or the type that can do it all?

I have been wondering that same thing. Why not draft CB who excel in man coverage and teach them zone, it i snot rocket science.


Don't get me wrong, I'd like a beast in the middle that can bring pressure just as much as you do. It would also help us in stopping the run. Reality is though, with todays athletic QB's they are hitting receivers while they are on the run after being flushed out of the pocket & our DB's are leaving them too much room. Result: pass completion.

At the end of the day, right now, today, we have who we have & we need to change the scheme to fit the players we have, rather than continually trying to shove a square peg in a round hole.

When the rubber hits the road we ar enot drafting players to play this scheme, other than zone coverage CB. What a bunch of crap that is!!

NodakPaul
09-18-2012, 09:25 AM
I agree with that 100% but I strongly believe that we didn't really fix our problem because in the end Spielman didn't get to bring in his own staff but rather Wilf selected the staff that is charged with implementing the scheme and the talent and Spielman has no control over the coaches, and the coaches don't have any control over the players that are brought in ( At least on the surface, they may collaborate but it would be outside the defined responsibilities).

That is a good point. If the Vikings continue to play like we have the past two weeks, I wonder if Spielman will have the authority to shitcan Frazier. I sincerely hope so - not because I want another coaching change, but because I want a GM with the authority to run the organization.

Purple Floyd
09-18-2012, 09:33 AM
It sounded to me when the changes were made that Frazier reports directly to Wilf. I would think and changes come directly from him and with Childress still cashing paychecks I am guessing nothing happens until he is only on the hook for 1 coach. After all, we are not in the race for the division and the stadium is passed. He more than likely feels he has the ability at this point to balance the books and clean up the contracts before he does anything.

rednorsk
09-18-2012, 11:23 AM
Sounds like most people agree, our secondary and line backers are really bad!!!!!!!!

Suick
09-18-2012, 11:54 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but our 2ndary has been bad to laughable for a couple of decades. For the life of me I don't undersatnd why the opposition isn't throwing it as soon as they step off the bus. Anyone remember Eric Kelly out of Kentucky............Kentucky? I guess the front office didn't watch much SEC games back then. KY got TORCHED every game by the likes of Florida and Tennesee, and LSU.

Winfield = great tackler......cant cover my momma.

tastywaves
09-18-2012, 11:58 AM
It sounded to me when the changes were made that Frazier reports directly to Wilf. I would think and changes come directly from him and with Childress still cashing paychecks I am guessing nothing happens until he is only on the hook for 1 coach. After all, we are not in the race for the division and the stadium is passed. He more than likely feels he has the ability at this point to balance the books and clean up the contracts before he does anything.

According to Siefert, Frazier does report directly to Wilf, however, Spielman may have significant input into his career path. This from when Spielman was appointed GM:


By all accounts, Spielman has acquired extensive authority and not just a fancy title with this move. Owner/president Mark Wilf said Spielman "will oversee all football-related activities and operations" and "all roster and personnel decisions" will be "in Rick's hands." That means Spielman will have final say over the draft, all player transactions and the composition of the 80- and 53-man rosters.
The one check on Spielman's power is supervision of the coaching staff. He will make roster and player decisions once reserved for the head coach in the old structure, but coach Leslie Frazier will continue to report directly to owners Zygi and Mark Wilf. "Ownership will make that determination on the head coach," Spielman said. From everything I can tell, however, that's an issue of semantics. The Wilfs would be circumventing their apparent intent if they didn't listen to the advice of the man they've placed in charge of "all football-related activities." If Spielman wants to fire the head coach and/or hire a new one, I imagine the Wilfs will consent.

singersp
09-18-2012, 08:08 PM
Coach Frazier is horrible and the only reason he has this job is because Zygie is still paying off Childress. Some idiot gave him an extension and a boatload of money right before they fired him. Once we get Childress off the books YOU CAN BET they will look for a REAL head coach. The Chin maybe, anyone!?!?!?!

We certainly agree there & we need to get rid of any residual Childress staff we might still have.

We have seen what Ponder can do in the last few minutes of a game, how about we try some of that a tad earlier, like say the first quarter.

Unlike some here, I wouldn't mind a defensive coach. I was really hoping they'd make Tomlin head coach & shit-can Childress. But we would then need a top-notch offensive coordinator. Someone with enough credentials that they could be a head coach.

singersp
09-18-2012, 09:20 PM
Lets be clear on one point.....We run the C2 not the T2 and there are distinct differences between the two.

One of which is what kind of MLB we use and how we use him.

Someone go find that thread I posted this summer on this very same subject so that we are all talking off the same sheet of music again. (for once).

From what I understand, the only difference between the Tampa 2 & the Cover 2 is that in the T2 the MLB drops back into pass coverage if he reads "pass".

pack93z
09-18-2012, 09:38 PM
Ponder continues to improve. He looked decent this game - not great, but not bad. 25/35 (71.4%) for 245 and 2 TDs. But there was one INT that was dropped, and he was pretty lucky on the first TD (that was fun to watch though). He needs to continue to improve if we are going to be contenders next year.


I like the progression of this kid... frankly I thought it would take longer for him to settle in, with a team limited in talented targets for him to target, he has really begun to become a quality NFL QB. I thought the Vikes reached with him in the draft, I was wrong. Either that, or the Vikes are developing him nicely.. or a combination. He was green in college.. inconsistent.. looks like he is finding his stride.

Chazz
09-18-2012, 11:43 PM
How good has Detroit's defense held up the past 2 weeks against Bradford and Smith throwing against them? Looks to me like they need better DB's and not that war pig you speak of. And before the War Pig i would throw a franchise MLB in there.

This

and it goes without saying we need to upgrade DBs, unfortunately we can't fill all our holes in one year.

digital420
09-19-2012, 06:45 AM
after reading 8 pages, letting my nerves settle, and re-watching some parts of the game..

1. Walsh = future.. the kids 100%, our KO is avg. inside the 20.. great work fixing this issue!!! (so far)

2. O weapons... we're 1 TE short of the Dynamo 2 TE spread.. when is that gonna start? hopefully soon.. Simpson will be coming in 2 weeks.. man o man do we need him!! PH is doing whatever he can, AD is well AD.. 8-9 men in the box and we can't get open wr's?????

3. stupid stupid Personal Fouls.. now i see a lot of QQ about the coaches on this.. why? sure they have to instruct DON:T do this.. DON't do that!! now if we come out vs SF and do the same.. THEN i'd say it's a coaching thing.. but players play.. players make the fouls.. maybe some of this is bad ref's.. maybe it's frustration.. maybe it's lack of self control.. if we give up 100+ yards to penalties again then yes something is wrong on the coaching end..

4. Ponder.. one of the biggest knocks on him last year was the forced passes, ints, and decision making.. so far 2/3 seem to be vastely improved where the 3rd is improving.. just slower.. i'll get back to him around week 10.. his read progression still is in a building stage.. i saw a few times where he had an open receiver but choose a different one. why? i'm not a qb.. i can't answer that..

6. WTF is prevent D that doesn't prevent? is it hte scheme.. players... coaching? who knows @ this point.. we're young, growing, and learning.. the D line got to luck, but had a hard time putting him down.. BR and JA both had paws on him to watch him avoid them.. and make the pass. there was a reason he was touted as once in a decade.. maybe we saw some flashes of that.. time will tell..

7. OL.. did a much better job then what we saw last year.. though ponder i thought went around and seems to always float to his right.. there were also some major holes for AD to hit.. i like this group so far, we gave a year to our old line to gel, and i think we're allready ahead of them.


8. coaching.. in and out onthis one.. we are building a team.. and it seems to be improving. who believed we'd be a challanger this year? Frazier, although has 2 things going for him.. low expectations.. and the backing of his team. there is obvious differences between what we have this year in just 2 games then what we had under chilly.. ie.. mid game changes, situational changes, and coaches listening to what players are seeing on the field. i don't think today i'd call Frazier one of the better football generals, but he is showing that he's a step up from where we were. his grades will come @ the end of hte season.. and probably through one more camp/season. SlickRick.. so far i like the team he is building. you cna't get 10 GREAT players in one draft.. it's a multi year rebuild and we're in the middle of it. my cousin has coached his sons football team for years, he's won 1 championship, he loves the game and enjoys teaching his kids the game. he mentioned to me the other day. a coach can only say something so many times.. can only show something so many times.. it's up to the players to learn, and execute.. and the coaches to help put them into a position to make their natural talents shine.. if i'm gonna knock anything so far on this staff (which we have a new DC, a very quiet OC.. and a coach that see's a silver lining in people showing up.. ) know your players.. know their strengths and weaknesses.. seems we're not there yet..


9. replacement refs.. there were calls for us, and against us.. missed, misread, to close to call.. but it's not just us..look around the NFL.. there is a reason these guys arn't PRO refs.. and reasons they shouldn't be..

10. for years the Vikes have made no name qb's, backups, and rookies look like pro bowlers.. this is nothing new.. and as i see now nothing that will change this.

rant off.. i need coffee..
DiGiTaL

Marrdro
09-19-2012, 06:56 AM
I like the progression of this kid... frankly I thought it would take longer for him to settle in, with a team limited in talented targets for him to target, he has really begun to become a quality NFL QB. I thought the Vikes reached with him in the draft, I was wrong. Either that, or the Vikes are developing him nicely.. or a combination. He was green in college.. inconsistent.. looks like he is finding his stride.
Welcome back old friend. Nice to see your avatar and fine posting again.

As to your point.......

NFC North Week 2 Quarterback Report - NFC North Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/46392/nfc-north-week-2-quarterback-report)

He is looking pretty good so far. I like that he has moved the team late in the first two games which resulted in points. 3 times if you count the over time drive.

Lets see what happens against the 49'rs D though.

On a side note.....Someone on here bitched because he didn't get to see him enough in the last meaningless preseason game. Guess it really didn't matter now did it. :)

Marrdro
09-19-2012, 06:57 AM
From what I understand, the only difference between the Tampa 2 & the Cover 2 is that in the T2 the MLB drops back into pass coverage if he reads "pass".
and how far he drops....The other is how the DT's are used.

pack93z
09-19-2012, 09:03 AM
Welcome back old friend. Nice to see your avatar and fine posting again.

Thanks.. it is nice to visit again and see so many familiar faces still around.



Lets see what happens against the 49'rs D though.


I would not bust his nuts too much when for that game, that is one fine and complete defense. Especially if the replacement refs and their version of the contact rules stay in place.. it will be hard sledding. Harvin leaking out of the backfield and moving the backers will probably be the best play of the day.

tarkenton10
09-19-2012, 10:53 AM
We certainly agree there & we need to get rid of any residual Childress staff we might still have.

We have seen what Ponder can do in the last few minutes of a game, how about we try some of that a tad earlier, like say the first quarter.

Unlike some here, I wouldn't mind a defensive coach. I was really hoping they'd make Tomlin head coach & shit-can Childress. But we would then need a top-notch offensive coordinator. Someone with enough credentials that they could be a head coach.

Defintely agree there, I am still of the belief that defense wins championships. You can win with an average to above average Offense if you have a dominating D. I think th e49ers are a good example, I am not particulary afraid of their offense but try to score on them. I think they will be a tough out in the playoffs.

mountainviking
09-19-2012, 12:15 PM
Bah...it is what it is: a young rebuilding team. We've got some players who make some nice plays, and thus we can keep it close, but our chances of beating really good teams will be very low this season.

Most of the complaints on Ponder: He's looking downfield too long, He's running too much, He's not throwing the deep ball; Tie directly into our gaping hole of nobody who can get open deep. Most teams have 3-5 of those guys. His completion % is spectacular as is his old school QB Rate of 110.6, good for 6th best in the league. Give the boy a legit, out-side, deep threat (or 2) and we will see improvement in Ponder's, Harvin's, AND AP's stats!

I liked the point one of you guys made in the JA thread: Defense kinda is what it is now. With so many rules made to help the Offense, what you can do has changed (add) and most teams play back and try to tackle in front of them. The zone used to rely on hard, bone-jarring hits to knock the ball loose, but now you can't do that, so you have to play the ball instead. We've seen a bit of that with Greenway and Smith, perhaps some of our team is on that idea...?

Hate to say it, but Winny looked really slow vs. Avery. I hope he can step it up a bit as the season rolls one, cuz nobody else starting back there has more than 12 games under their belt!!? D'oh!!! :beatupchickensmall:

Marrdro
09-24-2012, 02:01 PM
I would not bust his nuts too much when for that game, that is one fine and complete defense. Especially if the replacement refs and their version of the contact rules stay in place.. it will be hard sledding. Harvin leaking out of the backfield and moving the backers will probably be the best play of the day.
I actually think he is starting to make other players look better around him as he not only used Harvin but he got nice plays (especially on third downs and red zone) out of guys like Toby and Orash.....

tastywaves
09-24-2012, 02:32 PM
I actually think he is starting to make other players look better around him as he not only used Harvin but he got nice plays (especially on third downs and red zone) out of guys like Toby and Orash.....

QB making the players around him better being discussed with a Green Bay fan.....hmmm what does that remind me of.

Marrdro
09-24-2012, 02:35 PM
QB making the players around him better being discussed with a Green Bay fan.....hmmm what does that remind me of.
LOL, the irony of it all wasn't wasted on you. Was hoping Pack would pick up on it though. .....snicker........