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Webby
08-23-2012, 01:01 AM
I don't care about the previous yada yada about Spielman

The guy is showing good acumen with his reigns off so far.

We often discuss is a player ready, but we ignore the training staff (we have the best in Sug), the management and more. We know AP wants to roll. But I am more than happy about them looking long term for a guy who will exceed the average lifespan of a running back in the NFL.

I am seeing smarter and smarter decisions... And don't get me started on the Blair over Longwell choice. It's was non obvious for many of us... But I see positive movement.

singersp
08-23-2012, 06:55 AM
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

kevoncox
08-23-2012, 07:45 AM
I don't care about the previous yada yada about Spielman

The guy is showing good acumen with his reigns off so far.

We often discuss is a player ready, but we ignore the training staff (we have the best in Sug), the management and more. We know AP wants to roll. But I am more than happy about them looking long term for a guy who will exceed the average lifespan of a running back in the NFL.

I am seeing smarter and smarter decisions... And don't get me started on the Blair over Longwell choice. It's was non obvious for many of us... But I see positive movement.

I completely disagree. He simply is not good at his job. We are one of the worst offensive teams in the league and people see to think its because we are "a running team" Teams are not running or passing teams, they are either good or bad on offense. Look at a team like the Texans. Solid QB, Great WR, Great RB. We should be aiming for greatness period. We say, "Oh, we have AP so it's ok to fill our roster with below average Wrs for years on years on years. Think of all the wasted 2nd/3rd round picks that were spent on average CBs, while we did that, teams like the Pack and GMen were stockpiling talented WRs. You make an invenstment on your Offense and forget about it for years to come. Then you can afford to throw picks away on defensive players that may not work out. I think it is easier to predict success on offense than defense. Yet we seem in love with drafting all these defensive players that do nothing and drafting a 7th round guy to catch the ball. We are the Miami dolphins under Spielman.

Elite pass rusher - Jason Taylor / Allen
Elite Rb - Ricky Williams/ Peterson
Journeyman Qbs - Sage / Sage
1 WR & a bunch of nobodys - Chris Chambers / Percy Harvin

Its the only way he knows how to build a team. Years of crappy offensive.

NodakPaul
08-23-2012, 09:59 AM
I completely disagree. He simply is not good at his job. We are one of the worst offensive teams in the league and people see to think its because we are "a running team" Teams are not running or passing teams, they are either good or bad on offense. Look at a team like the Texans. Solid QB, Great WR, Great RB. We should be aiming for greatness period. We say, "Oh, we have AP so it's ok to fill our roster with below average Wrs for years on years on years. Think of all the wasted 2nd/3rd round picks that were spent on average CBs, while we did that, teams like the Pack and GMen were stockpiling talented WRs. You make an invenstment on your Offense and forget about it for years to come. Then you can afford to throw picks away on defensive players that may not work out. I think it is easier to predict success on offense than defense. Yet we seem in love with drafting all these defensive players that do nothing and drafting a 7th round guy to catch the ball. We are the Miami dolphins under Spielman.

Elite pass rusher - Jason Taylor / Allen
Elite Rb - Ricky Williams/ Peterson
Journeyman Qbs - Sage / Sage
1 WR & a bunch of nobodys - Chris Chambers / Percy Harvin

Its the only way he knows how to build a team. Years of crappy offensive.

You can't say that he has been responsible for years of crappy offense when this is his first year as GM. It was well documented before the he had differences of opinion with Childress over personnel, and the result of that was a Spielman/Childress hybrid of personnel that was good at nothing.

I like what Spielman has done so far. He has made a commitment to bringing in young players - something that lots of coaches and GMs say, but few REALLY enforce. Green Bay is a good example of a team that prefers to farm young players rather than buy them on the market (and last I checked their offense is doing OK).

I also think that he hit it out of the park with the draft. Kalil was a no brainer of course, but swapping with Cleveland took some skill. And the extra pick he got for that allowed us to move back into the first round and pick Smith - who will be starting game 1. Despite what you say - we haven't wasted lots of 2nd/3rd round picks on average secondary players. This year we picked Robinson in the 3rd, and we will see how he turns out. Cook was a early 2nd, and he was playing very well before his legal issues. Allen was a flop, and he WAS picked in the 3rd. But how much of that was Spielman, and how much was the "TOA"? CB was an obvious need for us this year, and the combination of picking Robinson, bringing in Carr, and getting Cook back definitely improved that position.

Do we need more WRs? Yes we do. I don't think we needed them more than we needed LT and S, so that would have put us into the third round of the draft. Was there a WR on the board who would make more of an impact that Robinson will at CB? Possibly, but you said yourself that offensive success is harder to predict than defensive success - especially once out of the first and second rounds.

We needed help in a lot of areas this year. I think Simpson was a very good pick up, and I hope they manage to keep Harvin happy. I would expect that WR will be a priority in the offseason next year, but if anybody is expecting them to make a huge splash with an aging veteran, they will be disappointed. Spielman's strategy is to build through youth, and I think that is the right strategy.

All in all, so far into Spielman's first year as a true GM, I like the decisions he has been making, and I think he is doing a decent job.

kevoncox
08-23-2012, 12:39 PM
You can't say that he has been responsible for years of crappy offense when this is his first year as GM. It was well documented before the he had differences of opinion with Childress over personnel, and the result of that was a Spielman/Childress hybrid of personnel that was good at nothing.
I think Chilly had a lot less pull than we think. The fact that Sage was on the roster when Chilly clearly didn't want him is my evidence. I think Chilly said what he needed, Spielman did the shopping. They would have conflicts on what Spielman brought back but it was him doing the shopping and working trades.




I like what Spielman has done so far. He has made a commitment to bringing in young players - something that lots of coaches and GMs say, but few REALLY enforce. Green Bay is a good example of a team that prefers to farm young players rather than buy them on the market (and last I checked their offense is doing OK).
Ok every year about 10 teams don't really have to draft 7 guys to fill their teams, they are in the hunt and will be for some time, so they round out their rosters with a FA splash guys. We aren't those teams, we had aged stars and no depth, our only option is to draft young guys. Drafting younger guys isn't the fix all. Draft Quality is. Noticed the bulk of their playmakers 2nd round picks.

Green bay
Cobb 2nd rounder
Finley 3rd rounder
Jennings 2nd rounder
Nelson 2nd rounder
James Jones 3rd rounder

Vikings
Arceuex - Undrafted
Aromashodu - 7th
Burton 7th
Carson - 2nd * castoff
Harvin - 1st
Rudolph - 2nd



I also think that he hit it out of the park with the draft. Kalil was a no brainer of course, but swapping with Cleveland took some skill. And the extra pick he got for that allowed us to move back into the first round and pick Smith - who will be starting game 1. Despite what you say - we haven't wasted lots of 2nd/3rd round picks on average secondary players. This year we picked Robinson in the 3rd, and we will see how he turns out. Cook was a early 2nd, and he was playing very well before his legal issues. Allen was a flop, and he WAS picked in the 3rd. But how much of that was Spielman, and how much was the "TOA"? CB was an obvious need for us this year, and the combination of picking Robinson, bringing in Carr, and getting Cook back definitely improved that position.

It should be damn near impossible to not do well with the 3rd pick in every round. Lets be honest. Compared to drafting position, we did not get enough this draft. A team like the bengals ran circles around us draft wise. Yes taking Kalil was what we need to do. Adressing TE before we fully addressed WR was stupid. We addressed our third TE when we didn't have a #2 WR. To put that in comparison to GB. They drafted Nelson when they already had Jennings and Driver in their prime in the 2nd. They drafted Cobb when they already had Jennings and Nelson and Jett in their primes. We won't even address the WR position because we have Devin Aromashudo. Are you fucking kidding me!



Do we need more WRs? Yes we do. I don't think we needed them more than we needed LT and S, so that would have put us into the third round of the draft. Was there a WR on the board who would make more of an impact that Robinson will at CB? Possibly, but you said yourself that offensive success is harder to predict than defensive success - especially once out of the first and second rounds.
No I said defensive success is harder to predict. Also, I think Safety was a need but I would have addressed that in FA and not waited to the draft. Instead we the bulk of our cap at a back up TE, cannot stay healthy...... So I would have addressed WR at the start of the 2nd round when guys like Randle and others we still on the board.



We needed help in a lot of areas this year. I think Simpson was a very good pick up, and I hope they manage to keep Harvin happy. I would expect that WR will be a priority in the offseason next year, but if anybody is expecting them to make a huge splash with an aging veteran, they will be disappointed. Spielman's strategy is to build through youth, and I think that is the right strategy.

Only if you are drafting talent. He is incable of doing that on the offensive end. His only hits have been Peterson 7th, Harvin 21 (top 10 but weed dropped him), and that's it. I'll like to say Rice and Rudolph but I can't because you want more than 1 season out of a 2nd rounder and Rudolph looks to be a stud but only had 200 yards last season. 3 players( gave each .5) over that stretch. 2 players!



All in all, so far into Spielman's first year as a true GM, I like the decisions he has been making, and I think he is doing a decent job.

I think its been horrible.
Simpson - If he makes it big this year, We will have to pay top price to keep him. Paying top price is a waste of cap. Either commit to the guy when he is cheap or find someone else. Bad GMing is taking a chance on a guy and then over paying for him the next season.

Harvin - We are going to lose Harvin. I think NWE is going to sign him for the contract they should have paid Wes Welker. Welker is older and they have him tagged this season. Harvin gets his contract and Welker is allowed to walk. We are left with.....

Not addressing WR until the 4th. Childs gone and that leaves Wright. Simpson goes back to his drug shipping business and we are starting from scratch. AGAIN

Spielman's MO is.... he will stock spill Defenders till the cows come home and let the offense rot. He did it in Miami... He is doing it now.

TheAnimal93
08-23-2012, 01:48 PM
I don't care about the previous yada yada about Spielman

The guy is showing good acumen with his reigns off so far.

We often discuss is a player ready, but we ignore the training staff (we have the best in Sug), the management and more. We know AP wants to roll. But I am more than happy about them looking long term for a guy who will exceed the average lifespan of a running back in the NFL.

I am seeing smarter and smarter decisions... And don't get me started on the Blair over Longwell choice. It's was non obvious for many of us... But I see positive movement.

I love how everybody skews the topic and ignores most of what people say. Keep the thoroughbred in the corral for a couple of more weeks. Gerhart is a compentent back-up. At your first job, first day, did anyone have all the answers and knew the in's and out's of your position? Speilman gets a pass at least until the middle of the season. lol

kevoncox
08-23-2012, 02:00 PM
I love how everybody skews the topic and ignores most of what people say. Keep the thoroughbred in the corral for a couple of more weeks. Gerhart is a compentent back-up. At your first job, first day, did anyone have all the answers and knew the in's and out's of your position? Speilman gets a pass at least until the middle of the season. lol

Its not his first day :(
He has been GM 2 other times and with us for a long time. :(
I rather give Fraiser a pass than Spielman.

NodakPaul
08-23-2012, 02:35 PM
Its not his first day :(
He has been GM 2 other times and with us for a long time. :(
I rather give Fraiser a pass than Spielman.

Spielman has NOT been GM 2 other times. He had a one year stint as GM in Miami. Prior to that he was a director of personal in Miami, and before that a director of personal in Chicago.

As yes he has been with the Vikings since 2006, but not in the GM role until this year.

You are catastrophizing the WR situation. Yes, we need a better WR corps. But you have Harvin going to New England, Simpson shipping drugs again... maybe we should wait a little bit and see what happens in the real world before we start reacting to the worst case scenario.

And if Spielman had given Simpson a long term contract people (including you) would be calling for his head. A one year contract was a good move - especially when no other team was interested. If we committed to him now and then he didnt work out we would have either continued to overpay a substandard WR (Berrian?) or cut him and take a cap hit. Just because YOU wouldn't have done it that way doesn't mean it wasn't a good move. But you are more than welcome to submit your extensive resume to the Minnesota Vikings if you honestly believe you can do a better job.

Safety in Free Agency? Who exactly were you thinking of? Landry? He Achilles injuries in both 2010 and 2011, and was barely on the field last year? Smith was a much better choice.

I understand where you are coming from - you obviously place a much higher priority on WR, and considering the way the NFL is right now I don't disagree with you. But that doesn't make the other choices wrong. With all of the holes we had coming into the offseason, we simply were not going to fill them all. Now that we were able to shore up our secondary (which was easily the worst part of the team last year), I am sure WR will be a higher priority the coming offseason. Have patience.

kevoncox
08-23-2012, 02:49 PM
Spielman has NOT been GM 2 other times. He had a one year stint as GM in Miami. Prior to that he was a director of personal in Miami, and before that a director of personal in Chicago.

As yes he has been with the Vikings since 2006, but not in the GM role until this year.

You are catastrophizing the WR situation. Yes, we need a better WR corps. But you have Harvin going to New England, Simpson shipping drugs again... maybe we should wait a little bit and see what happens in the real world before we start reacting to the worst case scenario.

And if Spielman had given Simpson a long term contract people (including you) would be calling for his head. A one year contract was a good move - especially when no other team was interested. If we committed to him now and then he didnt work out we would have either continued to overpay a substandard WR (Berrian?) or cut him and take a cap hit. Just because YOU wouldn't have done it that way doesn't mean it wasn't a good move. But you are more than welcome to submit your extensive resume to the Minnesota Vikings if you honestly believe you can do a better job.

Safety in Free Agency? Who exactly were you thinking of? Landry? He Achilles injuries in both 2010 and 2011, and was barely on the field last year? Smith was a much better choice.

I understand where you are coming from - you obviously place a much higher priority on WR, and considering the way the NFL is right now I don't disagree with you. But that doesn't make the other choices wrong. With all of the holes we had coming into the offseason, we simply were not going to fill them all. Now that we were able to shore up our secondary (which was easily the worst part of the team last year), I am sure WR will be a higher priority the coming offseason. Have patience.

Call it what you want. He was a GM for the Dolphins and had GM like powers in Chicago....neither Teams ever had a QB or a WR worth shit.

Coincidence?
I would not bash him for giving Simpson a value deal. His value right now is low.
I would bash him if he didnt work out because that's poor player evaluation. My point is and still is, we gain nothing by helping Simpson. Nothing, we risk driving his value up and him leaving or... over paying for him. Rock and hard place.

As for FAs, Atogwe jumps out and I think Huff was available as well (could be wrong, it was a long offseason). I begged for Carlos Rodgers 2 years ago when he was dirt cheap. Beggged!!!!!

The safety position in the league is in shambles. There aren't more than 9 starting caliber Safeties and in the draft they are over valued. I still don't like the smith pick. He looks good as an outside LB and all of his highlights so far have been in moves associated with that position. Still waiting to see him turn and run because Jennings will be testing that.

jmcdon00
08-23-2012, 03:16 PM
In today's NFL a GM is only as good as his QB. Until we find a franchise QB we will continue to be mediocre at best.

As far as Peterson I think it remains to be seen how he will be used. It's easy to say you are going to take it slow and limit his carries, and keep him out of preseason, but in a close game will they really keep him on the sidelines? Spielman and the coaches know that one win could be the difference between keeping their jobs and being fired.

tastywaves
08-23-2012, 03:51 PM
Drafting younger guys isn't the fix all. Draft Quality is. Noticed the bulk of their playmakers 2nd round picks.

Green bay
Cobb 2nd rounder
Finley 3rd rounder
Jennings 2nd rounder
Nelson 2nd rounder
James Jones 3rd rounder

Vikings
Arceuex - Undrafted
Aromashodu - 7th
Burton 7th
Carson - 2nd * castoff
Harvin - 1st
Rudolph - 2nd




I think Favre, Rodgers and McCarthy have as much to do with their success as their talent.

In terms of the Bengals drafting way better than MN, kick back and see what happens over the next few years. Right now, it's just speculation.

kevoncox
08-23-2012, 05:51 PM
I think Favre, Rodgers and McCarthy have as much to do with their success as their talent.

In terms of the Bengals drafting way better than MN, kick back and see what happens over the next few years. Right now, it's just speculation.


Yes and no. The fact remains, the best offenses are full of guys from the first 3 rounds.
Except the damn Pats who do what they feel.

NordicNed
08-23-2012, 06:25 PM
Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Not if it's digital and the battery is the problem... :)

singersp
08-23-2012, 08:16 PM
Not if it's digital and the battery is the problem... :)

Then it's not broken. It just needs a new battery.

singersp
08-23-2012, 08:41 PM
You can't say that he has been responsible for years of crappy offense when this is his first year as GM.


With that said then, you can't credit Spielman with players like Ponder, Rudolph, Harvin, Cook, Gerhart or any other of the 2011 draftees & FA signing & anyone else signed previously to 1/3/2012.

What that leaves is Kalil, the no brainer pick, this years draft class & this years FA signings;

08/06/2012 Signed WR A.J. Love.
08/04/2012 Signed OL Grant Cook and OL Bridger Buche. Waived WR AJ Love.
06/28/2012 Signed DE Jeff Charleston
06/05/2012 Signed free agent WR A.J. Love.
06/04/2012 Signed free agent WR Corey Gatewood.
06/01/2012 Signed first round pick, S Harrison Smith, to a contract.
05/23/2012 Signed 4th round pick Rhett Ellison.
05/22/2012 Signed Draft picks 4th-round WRs Greg Childs and Jarius Wright, 5th-round DB Robert Blanton, 6th-round K Blair Walsh, 7th-round LB Audie Cole and 7th-round DT Trevor Guyton.
05/18/2012 Signed OL Levi Horn.
05/16/2012 Signed DE Nick Reed
05/15/2012 Signed OL Kevin Murphy.
05/14/2012 Signed OL Tyler Holmes.
05/09/2012 Signed DE Anthony Jacobs.
05/01/2012 Signed undrafted free agents DT Tydreke Powell, DT Terrell Resonno, C Quentin Saulsberry, T Darrion Weems, & CB CC Whitlock.
05/01/2012 Signed undrafted free agents DT Chase Baker, RB Derrick Coleman, DE Kevin Cyrille, CB Bobby Felder, & WR Kamar Jorden.
05/01/2012 Signed undrafted free agents DE Eric Latimore, LB Tyler Nielsen, DE Ernest Owusu, LB Corey Paredes, & G Austin Pasztor.
04/24/2012 Signed free agent WR Jerome Simpson.
04/10/2012 Signed free agent LB Marvin Mitchell.
04/04/2012 Signed free agent CB Chris Carr.
04/02/2012 Signed free agent WR Bryan Walters.
03/26/2012 Signed free agent OL Geoff Schwartz.
03/26/2012 Signed free agent CB Zack Bowman.
03/26/2012 Resigned WR Devin Aromashodu.
03/26/2012 Resigned LB Erin Henderson.
03/21/2012 Resigned DT Fred Evans and signed RB Lex Hilliard.
03/20/2012 Signed RB Jerome Felton.
03/16/2012 Signed DB Nicholas Taylor.
03/14/2012 Signed former Seahawks TE John Carlson.
03/13/2012 Resigned QB Sage Rosenfels and DL Letroy Guion.
01/31/2012 Signed LB Solomon Elimimian to Reserve/Future Free Agent contract.
01/18/2012 Signed TE Daniel Hardy and OL Jose Valdez to Reserve/Future Free Agent contracts.
01/13/2012 Signed QB McLeod Bethel-Thompson out of Sacramento State as a Reserve/Future Free Agent.
01/10/2012 Signed FB Matt Asiata to a future free agent contract.

None of them have panned out yet, including Kalil, but some are promising. We've only played two games so far, both being preseason. Let's see how they all play come regular season.

Purple Floyd
08-23-2012, 10:29 PM
I am not a fan of the move but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt and waiting to see how the team responds and plays this year.

Caine
08-23-2012, 10:45 PM
Thus far I am not a big fan of Spielman...mostly because he represents (to me) what I see as the source of our problems - the continued influence of the Wilf family in the football operations of the Vikings. From where I sit, Spielman and Frazier were hired because their lack of credibility/experience afforded the Wilfs the opportunity to remain "involved" in the decision making process...something they are simply not qualified to do.

if Spielman can rise above his station and turn into a solid GM, I'll be thrilled. And I'd wager that he'll have a better shot at doing so than Frazier will. But, truth be told, if he does rise above, at some point he will have to stand up to Zygi, mark, and Leonard and tell them to sit in the owners box, wave to the cameras, and STFU.


...at which time we will be hiring a new GM...

Caine

NordicNed
08-23-2012, 10:59 PM
For me, theres only ever been one owner of a team that I didn't mind seeing on the sidelines. Hell, he was the face of that team and still is, even though he's passed.

Yup, Al Davis of the Raiders..

I throw up when I see J Jones on cowboys field.....He should be fired..LOL Can you fire an owner? LOL

NodakPaul
08-24-2012, 10:46 AM
With that said then, you can't credit Spielman with players like Ponder, Rudolph, Harvin, Cook, Gerhart or any other of the 2011 draftees & FA signing & anyone else signed previously to 1/3/2012.

What that leaves is Kalil, the no brainer pick, this years draft class & this years FA signings;

...

None of them have panned out yet, including Kalil, but some are promising. We've only played two games so far, both being preseason. Let's see how they all play come regular season.

I 100% agree.

I have a hard time blaming Spielman for mistakes made when the TOA was in place, and on the same note he doesn't get credit for good pickups under the same regeim. He can and should be judged by what he is doing NOW as a true GM. So far I like what I am seeing, but you are absolutely correct in saying that we need to see them play in the regular season.