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singersp
08-12-2012, 11:59 AM
After preseason-opening loss, team receives homework assignment

Vikings Insider: After preseason-opening loss, team receives homework assignment | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/165873906.html)

thorshammer
08-12-2012, 03:05 PM
I hope we do our homework and get some of this straightened out.

Marrdro
08-12-2012, 05:10 PM
Thanks for the read my friend.


Reason for concern: Backup quarterback Joe Webb looked disoriented. He was 4-for-11 passing for 20 yards and added 9 rushing yards on two attempts. Given five possessions to show something positive, Webb produced only four first downs and never led the offense across midfield. The farthest he moved the ball was to the Vikings 41, and his five drives netted an average of 11 yards.
Worth discussing: The refurbished first-unit offensive line seemed to hold up well. Ponder had high praise for rookie Matt Kalil and called the line's overall play "outstanding."
"I had so much time back there it was unbelievable," the Vikings quarterback said.
The line also helped Toby Gerhart plow for 31 yards on five rushes. Head coach Leslie Frazier lauded Gerhart's effort, too.


Hmmm so many things to point out in there.......

Ponder haters......Webb Lovers.....Toby haters.......OL Haters...... I wonder if I should pull up all the good stuff about our rookie kicker for all the kicker haters.........

Now I'm just cracking myself up.

ConnecticutViking
08-12-2012, 08:31 PM
I agree with Madro...This is not about HOMEWORK, as much as we don't have a true run stopper in the middle. This opens up the whole Defense to the run, especially in a cover two scheme where the MLB has deep middle responsibility.

Marrdro
08-12-2012, 08:55 PM
I agree with Madro...This is not about HOMEWORK, as much as we don't have a true run stopper in the middle. This opens up the whole Defense to the run, especially in a cover two scheme where the MLB has deep middle responsibility.
Another poster steadily moving up the spreadsheets........And not just because he agree's with me.

That was an excellent point about the MLB. :)

singersp
08-13-2012, 07:44 AM
Another poster steadily moving up the spreadsheets........And not just because he agree's with me.

That was an excellent point about the MLB. :)

Our starting NT got injured on the 1st or 2nd series of the game, K-Will & JA weren't in there & I don't think Robison was either. That's a huge chunk of our starting unit if & when Robison played & our entire DL if & when he didn't.

It's no surprise to me that after that our DL, that lacks depth in the middle, got burned in the run game.

NodakPaul
08-13-2012, 10:25 AM
Our starting NT got injured on the 1st or 2nd series of the game, K-Will & JA weren't in there & I don't think Robison was either. That's a huge chunk of our starting unit if & when Robison played & our entire DL if & when he didn't.

It's no surprise to me that after that our DL, that lacks depth in the middle, got burned in the run game.

Agreed 100%

NodakPaul
08-13-2012, 10:36 AM
Reason for optimism: The wind was swirling Friday at Candlestick Park, one of the least friendly NFL venues for kickers. Yet rookie Blair Walsh came in and nailed first-half field goals of 39 and 26 yards.

"This was not the optimal position to be in as a rookie, coming into these windy conditions," Frazier said. "But he handled it well."

Walsh also kicked off three times, putting one out of the end zone and the other two deep. The 49ers' average starting field position after Walsh's kickoffs was their own 18.


Still say that the addition of Walsh will be one of the best things we did this offseason.

Marrdro
08-13-2012, 03:44 PM
Our starting NT got injured on the 1st or 2nd series of the game, K-Will & JA weren't in there & I don't think Robison was either. That's a huge chunk of our starting unit if & when Robison played & our entire DL if & when he didn't.

It's no surprise to me that after that our DL, that lacks depth in the middle, got burned in the run game.
Explain last year then? Look, you know me, I am looking at things from a "Big Picture" standpoint, not just one game.

Guion, as much as I like him isn't a NT. he's a 3 tech. Neither is Evans. Ballard isn't a 3 tech, hes a LDE, same applies for the rest of the backups.

In the end, if you look real hard you will see a trend. The staff is slowly adding a glutt of RDE's and LDE's to the roster in hopes that quicker/faster will overcome our DL woes, when in fact, its only making it worse.

And that, by the way, trickles down to the rest of the defense.

The Dropper
08-13-2012, 05:06 PM
Explain last year then? Look, you know me, I am looking at things from a "Big Picture" standpoint, not just one game.

Guion, as much as I like him isn't a NT. he's a 3 tech. Neither is Evans. Ballard isn't a 3 tech, hes a LDE, same applies for the rest of the backups.

In the end, if you look real hard you will see a trend. The staff is slowly adding a glutt of RDE's and LDE's to the roster in hopes that quicker/faster will overcome our DL woes, when in fact, its only making it worse.

And that, by the way, trickles down to the rest of the defense.

I think you're right about the team bringing in more guys that are DEs than NTs, but I'm not sure you're right about that being a bad thing. To wit, two observations:

1. The other teams in the Vikes' division, which represent 6 of the 16 games that will be played this year, are a mess at running back (OK, the Bears, not so much, but I will be shocked if Forte puts up the numbers he did last year when he was playing for a contract). All three are pass-first teams with strong QBs. When 37.5% of your games are played against teams who pass that much, how is having more speed than heft on your DLine a bad thing?

2. The SF game was an anomaly. It just was. They are arguably the best rushing team in the NFL, as they have to be to cover up for their QB's lack of talent. Sure, Smith was great last year (especially his lack of INTs), but I don't believe for a second that last year was a representation the real Alex Smith or that we should just ignore his previous five years. Meanwhile, Guion was taken out on the first series, and two of the other starting three on the DL didn't even play. Put all of these factors together and the outcome was predictable.

So, is this Vikings team going to get trounced by great rushing teams? Absolutely. Fortunately, the overall trend in the NFL, at least with the league's top teams--and in most of the NFC North especially--is to pass, pass, pass, and then pass some more (e.g., Colts with Manning, Patriots, Packers, Lions, heck even the Giants in the playoffs). Elsewhere, the good run-first teams like SF, Pittsburgh, and Baltimore are becoming the minority. Truth is that defenses in this league need to start building to stop the pass first, and replacing slow, hulking DTs with quicker, but still fairly big DE-types to fill in the middle of the line could turn out to be a decent solution. Time will tell.

/Big Picture

MossMems
08-13-2012, 05:42 PM
In order to do their homework, they need a good teacher. Mustgrave and Fraizer do not fit into that role. And the entire D would flunk. At this point im just hoping we can win more then 3 games, and Fraizer gets the boot. We have a young team, and no one t coach them.

Marrdro
08-13-2012, 06:03 PM
I think you're right about the team bringing in more guys that are DEs than NTs, but I'm not sure you're right about that being a bad thing. To wit, two observations:

Holy bat crap....one of my favorite posters shows himself........Glad to see a quality post from you again my friend.....

As always, I have some discussion points for you....

1
. The other teams in the Vikes' division, which represent 6 of the 16 games that will be played this year, are a mess at running back (OK, the Bears, not so much, but I will be shocked if Forte puts up the numbers he did last year when he was playing for a contract). All three are pass-first teams with strong QBs. When 37.5% of your games are played against teams who pass that much, how is having more speed than heft on your DLine a bad thing?
PUKERs just signed Ced Benson. I think that old cat can still get it done and the Bores went shopping to help augment Forte. Granted, it was Booker but they still are trying to get better.

Besides, it isn't like we will only have to get through our division to win a SB. Some of the teams still even use a FB, but you point is well taken.

In the end, this isn't only about running. You need to check out the thread I just updated about understanding our defense. 2 good articles on the front side of it.


2. The SF game was an anomaly. It just was. They are arguably the best rushing team in the NFL, as they have to be to cover up for their QB's lack of talent. Sure, Smith was great last year (especially his lack of INTs), but I don't believe for a second that last year was a representation the real Alex Smith or that we should just ignore his previous five years. Meanwhile, Guion was taken out on the first series, and two of the other starting three on the DL didn't even play. Put all of these factors together and the outcome was predictable.

Best rushing team that was one game away from the SB.

One thing to Ponder about Guion, did he go out on a fluke injury, or will he continue to suffer through injuries like that from trying to beef up this year. Something to think about.


So, is this Vikings team going to get trounced by great rushing teams? Absolutely. Fortunately, the overall trend in the NFL, at least with the league's top teams--and in most of the NFC North especially--is to pass, pass, pass, and then pass some more (e.g., Colts with Manning, Patriots, Packers, Lions, heck even the Giants in the playoffs). Elsewhere, the good run-first teams like SF, Pittsburgh, and Baltimore are becoming the minority. Truth is that defenses in this league need to start building to stop the pass first, and replacing slow, hulking DTs with quicker, but still fairly big DE-types to fill in the middle of the line could turn out to be a decent solution. Time will tell.

Again, your point is well taken about the shift into a "pass happy" league, but lets not forget, that big 1 tech is in there not just to stop the run. He is supposed to eat up multiple blockers as he collapses the pocket.

By doing that he makes it almost impossible for the QB to step up (and away from the out side DE rush) in the pocket to avoid the rush as well as to utilize proper technique when it comes to the art of delivering the ball......(Still hear the QB coach on our high school team...."Step into the throw dammit").

Again, good points on the run aspect, but I'm not only talking about the run. It is very important to get pressure on the QB with just our front 4. Without a good 1 tech and a good 3 tech, that isn't gonna happen.


/Big Picture
Again, great post. Glad to see ya back my friend. :)

Marrdro
08-13-2012, 06:05 PM
In order to do their homework, they need a good teacher. Mustgrave and Fraizer do not fit into that role. And the entire D would flunk. At this point im just hoping we can win more then 3 games, and Fraizer gets the boot. We have a young team, and no one t coach them.
I'm still trying to stay optimistic when it comes to this staff but its gonna be hard.

Quick question, how long does Leslie have if he loses the first two games?

After watching young Luck sling the ball, that easy win against the Colts doesn't look that easy anymore.

The Dropper
08-13-2012, 06:50 PM
Holy bat crap....one of my favorite posters shows himself........Glad to see a quality post from you again my friend.....

Yeah, I forgot how much I missed this place.


1 PUKERs just signed Ced Benson. I think that old cat can still get it done and the Bores went shopping to help augment Forte. Granted, it was Booker but they still are trying to get better.


Eh, Benson was decent on my fantasy team last year, and obviously that means he will be good this year. Seriously though, I'm not that worried about the Packers. I'm reminded of a comment I read recently from Rogers in which he basically laughed off a reporter who asked him about the Packers running it more. His take was (and I'm paraphrasing), "Passing was what got us to being one of the best teams in the NFL, you tit. Why would we dramatically shift our offense now?"

And yeah, Booker. Here's a bold prediction: The Bears--being as they are one of the most over-hyped teams in the league right now with one of the league's most mercurial and oft-injured QBs--finish dead last in the NFC North. Book(er) it.


Besides, it isn't like we will only have to get through our division to win a SB. Some of the teams still even use a FB, but you point is well taken.

Super Bowl?! As always, I love your optimism! :crazy: On the other hand, I would be happy just to see significant improvement over last season, and would be ecstatic to make the playoffs. Rebuilding. Baby steps. But you know this.


In the end, this isn't only about running. You need to check out the thread I just updated about understanding our defense. 2 good articles on the front side of it.

I just saw that. Awesome, awesome reads. Matter of fact, I'm going to bookmark them so I can go back and read them again right before watching the defense in Week 1.


One thing to Ponder about Guion, did he go out on a fluke injury, or will he continue to suffer through injuries like that from trying to beef up this year. Something to think about.

Again, your point is well taken about the shift into a "pass happy" league, but lets not forget, that big 1 tech is in there not just to stop the run. He is supposed to eat up multiple blockers as he collapses the pocket.

By doing that he makes it almost impossible for the QB to step up (and away from the out side DE rush) in the pocket to avoid the rush as well as to utilize proper technique when it comes to the art of delivering the ball......(Still hear the QB coach on our high school team...."Step into the throw dammit").

Again, good points on the run aspect, but I'm not only talking about the run. It is very important to get pressure on the QB with just our front 4. Without a good 1 tech and a good 3 tech, that isn't gonna happen.

Guion getting injured more is something I'd rather not think about, thankyouverymuch. But it is a very good point. He will likely be going up against a lot of guards and centers who are bigger and stronger (or at least as big and as strong) than he is. I guess the hope is that Kevin Williams will draw most of the double teams, which will allow Guion to use his speed rather than size to break down the pocket through the middle. On the other hand, will Williams still command those double teams at his age? Something else I'd rather not think about.

We will have problems, no doubt about it, but the speed vs. size theory for DTs is one that hasn't been explored much in the NFL of late. Obviously, you would love to have a DT that is both as enormous and as fast as a Suh, but you know, guys like him don't grow on trees (because they'd break all of the damn branches!). Since Suhs are hard to find, maybe the solution is to find DTs who can command double teams using DE-like speed. The theory is that the speed might actually collapse the pocket more effectively than the sheer girth and strength of a 1 tech would. I miss Fat Pat too, but let's be honest, our passing defense wasn't exactly stellar with him on the line either (remember that Monday Night game against the Patriots a few years back? The one where they didn't even try to run the ball and gave every team in the league the blueprint on how to beat the Vikes' Tampa 2? Yeesh. I wish I hadn't). The theory may be wrong, but I do at least appreciate the experimentation in trying to solve the problem of an overly pass-happy league.

But it has seemed to have worked somewhat for Oregon these past few years. I've noticed that the Ducks' defense tends to use speedy but somewhat undersized nose tackles (Haloti Ngata obviously excluded) with some success. It helps that their opponents are often playing from a deficit, and therefore are forced to throw the ball often. Where their defense has failed is against big, oversized, power-rushing SEC teams. But then, so has every defense in college football.


Again, great post. Glad to see ya back my friend. :)

Thanks. Nice to be here. I'll try to stick around a while, time permitting.

Marrdro
08-13-2012, 07:37 PM
Multi-quote posts....Kindof a thing of the past. Hope they start up again......


Super Bowl?! As always, I love your optimism! :crazy: On the other hand, I would be happy just to see significant improvement over last season, and would be ecstatic to make the playoffs. Rebuilding. Baby steps. But you know this.
Snipped the whole RB discussion.

Not that it isn't interesting, but rather it really doesn't dove tail into what I'm trying to keep going and that's looking at this from "The Big Picture" perspective and when I say that I mean really how do we improve next year as well as the following year.

So yes, when I say SB, I mean it, maybe not this year, but possibly next or the year after, but to do that, they need to shore up area's via FA that they just can't seem to fix in the draft.

Kindof like what they had to do when they traded for JA. We burned alot of picks trying to fix that area and finally wound up doing the right thing, trading for a guy who was about the same age as our corp players who we knew would fix the problem.

See my comments about Glen Dorsey. If we went after him now, we would sure go along way to fixing the 1 tech for years to come. Then we could move Guion over to his natural position (3 tech) and start adding young depth behind those two.



I just saw that. Awesome, awesome reads. Matter of fact, I'm going to bookmark them so I can go back and read them again right before watching the defense in Week 1.

I have yet to see the first game. Hopefully we will get a chance to see all our DL starters out there this week, minus Guion of course.


Guion getting injured more is something I'd rather not think about, thankyouverymuch. But it is a very good point. He will likely be going up against a lot of guards and centers who are bigger and stronger (or at least as big and as strong) than he is. I guess the hope is that Kevin Williams will draw most of the double teams, which will allow Guion to use his speed rather than size to break down the pocket through the middle. On the other hand, will Williams still command those double teams at his age? Something else I'd rather not think about.

We will have problems, no doubt about it, but the speed vs. size theory for DTs is one that hasn't been explored much in the NFL of late. Obviously, you would love to have a DT that is both as enormous and as fast as a Suh, but you know, guys like him don't grow on trees (because they'd break all of the damn branches!). Since Suhs are hard to find, maybe the solution is to find DTs who can command double teams using DE-like speed. The theory is that the speed might actually collapse the pocket more effectively than the sheer girth and strength of a 1 tech would. I miss Fat Pat too, but let's be honest, our passing defense wasn't exactly stellar with him on the line either (remember that Monday Night game against the Patriots a few years back? The one where they didn't even try to run the ball and gave every team in the league the blueprint on how to beat the Vikes' Tampa 2? Yeesh. I wish I hadn't). The theory may be wrong, but I do at least appreciate the experimentation in trying to solve the problem of an overly pass-happy league.

Lets not forget that the C2/T2 was designed to shut down a pass happy league. Not in the sense of 3 and outing them, but more along the lines of limiting how far a pass could be completed and limiting YAC after the small catch. That would force teams to be patient in their approach (no long plays) as they dink/dunked down the field.

To do that, of course we all know, we must have 4 good DLmen that can get after the QB alone.
Doesn't matter if they are big and slow or big and fast, they just have to get it done. Right now teams understand that we are going to try to do that with smaller faster DLmen and the counter to that is to run at us, which will nullify the speed aspect of the DL forcing DLmen to do exactly what Reed did last weekend......cheat/help out into another gap which lead to the big run by Kap.


But it has seemed to have worked somewhat for Oregon these past few years. I've noticed that the Ducks' defense tends to use speedy but somewhat undersized nose tackles (Haloti Ngata obviously excluded) with some success. It helps that their opponents are often playing from a deficit, and therefore are forced to throw the ball often. Where their defense has failed is against big, oversized, power-rushing SEC teams. But then, so has every defense in college football.

The Giants have used the same approach, but the difference has been that the freaks they've had on thier DL are just that, freaks. Our guys are just not cut of that same piece of cloth. Smaller and faster for sure, but I worry about the ability to control a gap as well as to recognize when to give up on the gap and crash down.



Thanks. Nice to be here. I'll try to stick around a while, time permitting.

Great.

jargomcfargo
08-13-2012, 10:01 PM
PUKERs just signed Ced Benson. I think that old cat can still get it done and the Bores went shopping to help augment Forte. Granted, it was Booker but they still are trying to get better.
Bears have Michael Bush behind Forte. Surely you haven't forgot how he ran for 109 yards against the Vikings last year. I doubt they can stop him or Forte this year either. We'll see.

Marrdro
08-14-2012, 07:51 PM
Bears have Michael Bush behind Forte. Surely you haven't forgot how he ran for 109 yards against the Vikings last year. I doubt they can stop him or Forte this year either. We'll see.
Didn't I throw him in there? My bad, I didn't forget him. Was trying to swing the discussion to overall effort (Pass defense/Run defense).