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View Full Version : What to do with Joe Webb? QB, WR, defense, special teams...



HEY
08-09-2012, 05:20 PM
355

I understand why "everyone" wants to see Joe Webb on the field some way or another. I know I do! There's just this one little problem and his name is Christian Ponder. Ponder is the Vikings starting quarterback and it's his job to lose, but Joe Webb is too good to not play football. Webb is very versatile, unfortunately, in a way that is also his weakness. The problem is that he is a man without a position. He doesn't stand out at any positions as of yet.

He shows great potential as a quarterback, but he's still no Cam Newton. He has played some wide receiver, but I think the coaches see that he's too far away from developing into a great receiver.

Whether it is the route-running or pass-catching that Webb has a difficult time learning, my impression (from interviews and how Webb is being used in practice and games) is clear that the coaches believe that Webb can't be a NFL receiver. Especially considering our terrible WR situation. If he can't compete for a spot there, then it should be a warning sign. I think us fans need to drop the ball on the receiver option.

... but... there are still many other options.
Why not look at the defensive side of the ball? Webb is extremely athletic, and even rivals Calvin Johnson in that department. He also has the similar size. Plus, Webb has quarterback intelligence, maybe he can be used as a safety. That has been a successful convertion for quarterbacks in the past. Of course, I have no clue if he can tackle, but I'm just throwing that out there.

Many people think Webb could be perfect for the Dolphins' Wildcat offense. Why wouldn't he? He is a far better passer than Ronnie Brown and definitely can run the ball too. Webb was used like this in the Minnesota's so-called "Blazer Package", but with little success, but does that mean we should just give up on it? After-all, the Vikings were the first team in the NFL to use the Wildcat formation. I say it's time to take it back!

I'd also want to see if Webb can be used in a similar way that Tim Tebow was used in Denver last season which was practically the same as the wildcat offense at times. Granted, I doubt Joe Webb has Tebow's superb fast reading skills in those situation, but he definitely has the running skills.

It doesn't have to be in the particular Wildcat formation, but in a way to confuse the defense and keep them off-guard and as a change of pace. I suspect that this is what the Jets have in plans this season. A two-quarterback attack system. One conventional (Mark Sanchez) and one extreme non-convential (Tim Tebow).

It has been critiqued for maybe causing the offense to get out of rythm, but I don't see this problem. Sanchez and Tebow are not competing against each other. Instead they have their own parts to fulfill. Teebow is not the number two QB on the roster, he's the number one "what-ever-you-call-it"-position. It will be interesting to see how it works if this is what the Jets are going to implant this year.

Another possibility that still leaves him available for playing offense and defense is special teams. Let him hold the kicks so we can use him as a dangerous threat on field goal fakes for example. He has also already tried returning kicks (or on second thought, I think it was punts) and I like his running abilities, but this is one of the few instances where I think his size might be an disadvantage. On the other hand, big bodies like Patrick Peterson, Jordy Nelson, and Dez Bryant are one of the best returners in the league and they use their size, in particular Dez Bryant, to bully the would-be tacklers. Sounds absurd to have a quarterback return punts, but Josh Cribbs and Julian Edelman does it, and they were quarterbacks. So let's not get stuck in positions and instead use what we have!

My issue is that Lezlie Frazier is holding his star players back a little too much in my opinion. This has bothered me in the past. I understand his thinking, but it's absurd to not squeeze every drop out of every player. Maybe it could lead to an injury, but we can't be too cautious either.

This is American football!
Sacrifices has to be made if you want to win games in this highly competitive league.

While we wait, let's enjoy some Joe Webb awesomeness!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDYEXYm2fG0

PackSux!
08-09-2012, 07:15 PM
Tight End.

Then we can run the tight end reverse option and really stick to them Packers. They won't know what hit them.

Webby
08-10-2012, 01:33 AM
I read your blog post here on ppo about this topic!

HEY
08-10-2012, 01:45 AM
I read your blog post here on ppo about this topic!
Thought it would automatically show up among the forum topics. Might be a good idea to incorporate such a feature. :)

NodakPaul
08-10-2012, 10:20 AM
I vote for Back up QB.

Seriously, I think he is very well suited for that job. His speed and athleticism are an asset when he comes in to relieve a QB because his style of play is so different than what they will have likely have game planned for. I think he compliments Ponder very nicely.

There is nothing wrong with being a backup QB. It is arguably the most important bench role that there is in football, even if he doesn't see the field as often.

mountainviking
08-10-2012, 11:44 AM
I vote for Back up QB.

Seriously, I think he is very well suited for that job. His speed and athleticism are an asset when he comes in to relieve a QB because his style of play is so different than what they will have likely have game planned for. I think he compliments Ponder very nicely.

There is nothing wrong with being a backup QB. It is arguably the most important bench role that there is in football, even if he doesn't see the field as often.

Exactly! Especially given Ponder's injury history so far. The other thing is that the backup QB holds the clipboard, takes notes, and generally helps facilitate communication between the coordinator and the on-field QB...important duties that he'd miss a bit of if he was playing STs regularly.

I hear ya, he's produced some really freaking exciting plays, but I like what our plan is for him for now: concentrate on QB, lets see what we have there first and worry about other options in a year or two.

I'm starting to think that QB is a position you can look at drafting nearly every year. A guy like Rodgers sitting behind Favre, or what the Pats are doing with Mallet behind Brady, and the Eagles with Coles behind Vick is a nice luxury to have. A good backup is great to have, and trade bait isn't all bad either, and I think now more than ever, It's got to be part of the plan if you want to go from "rebuilding years" to competing every year.

Caine
08-10-2012, 02:51 PM
I think that the Vikings are in a good position with Webb. He's not a hot commodity that will pull a sweet trade deal right now, but he has a lot of "potential". And, on a team that is strapped at so many positions, that can turn into something special.

What i don't want to see is a wildcat offense here. I think that the Vikings have given ponder the green light and that they should see how far he can go....not force him to stutter step along so that they can fit in a handful of "tricksie" plays in....

The downside to Webb is, as HEY mentioned, that he hasn't really stood out at any position. And, IMO, that could lead to him becoming expendable if he doesn't pick a direction and follow it soon.

Caine

NodakPaul
08-10-2012, 03:34 PM
Agreed. NO WILDCAT. Or Blazer package or whatever the hell they want to call it now. It was a gimmick formation that took a couple of teams off guard a few years ago. But it is no longer effective and it does not have a place in the NFL.


That being said... anyone remember when the Wildcat first made an appearance in the NFL? It wasn't the dolphins in 2006... It was actually the Vikings in 1998.


The wildcat formation made an appearance in 1998, when Minnesota Vikings' offensive coordinator Brian Billick began employing formations where QB Randall Cunningham lined-up as a wide receiver and third-down specialist David Palmer took the direct snap from the center with the option to pass or run.

Marrdro
08-10-2012, 09:08 PM
Hmmmmm, wonder why you said that having Ponder was a "little problem".

Anyway, let him develop as the backup QB. If he doesn't seem to progress in that area (is taken over by someone else) then move him along.

Seriously, it isn't that easy just to switch him to another position. If it was, it would be nothing for Griff to switch from DE to LB.

Webby
08-15-2012, 04:00 PM
Joe Webb experiment can end now I think?

HEY
08-15-2012, 05:18 PM
Hmmmmm, wonder why you said that having Ponder was a "little problem".
Sorry, should have clarified. I meant from Joe Webb's standpoint. Because Ponder is in the way for Joe Webb if he wants to be the starting QB here.

singersp
08-15-2012, 07:13 PM
Seriously, it isn't that easy just to switch him to another position. If it was, it would be nothing for Griff to switch from DE to LB.

It must be.

The Jets are switching Tebow from punt protector to back up QB to ST on kickoffs all season long.

singersp
08-15-2012, 07:40 PM
Vikings remain committed to developing Joe Webb in pocket

Notebook: Vikings remain committed to developing Joe Webb in pocket | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Notebook_Vikings_remain_committed_to_developing_Joe_Webb_in_pocket081412)

marshallvike
08-15-2012, 10:46 PM
Vikings remain committed to developing Joe Webb in pocket

Notebook: Vikings remain committed to developing Joe Webb in pocket | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Notebook_Vikings_remain_committed_to_developing_Joe_Webb_in_pocket081412)



"We're about to get to that point," Musgrave said. "We wanted to get Jerome up to speed, but you're right, we're going to get to the point real soon where we start to prepare somebody else to play that split end for the first three games."

It will be interesting to see who can fill that role.


The plan is for Sage Rosenfels to be the third quarterback against the Bills after McLeod Bethel-Thompson handled those duties in San Francisco.

Feel bad for Sage. Just a few years ago his team wouldn't trade him as their backup for a third round pick. Now he is fighting for third string.


Halfback Jordan Todman (ankle) tried to practice again but came up limping after a catch in a team drill. He's a long shot to play on Friday.

no chance at 53 man roster.


Ponder was 9-of-20 passing in team (11-on-11) drills. Webb was 12-of-18, Rosenfels 10-of-12 and Bethel-Thompson 1-of-4.

Sarcasm on;
Clearly Webb is outplaying Ponder. He should get the starting nod. And Sage is getting screwed again.;)

singersp
08-16-2012, 06:46 AM
Feel bad for Sage. Just a few years ago his team wouldn't trade him as their backup for a third round pick. Now he is fighting for third string.

I don't.

He's made over $10 million beginning with the 2009 season & hasn't thrown a single pass in a regular season game since, never was active for a Vikings regular season game & only took 3 knees for the giants.

Not bad for a guy who can't even run a bootleg.

purplehelmut
08-16-2012, 01:10 PM
Better than Sage as BU QB.

C Mac D
08-16-2012, 01:18 PM
Better than Sage as BU QB.

This.

Completely agree. Sure Webb might not be starting material... but we're not even sure if Ponder's starting material. Webb brings enough to the table to be a formidable backup, I'm happy to have him on the roster.

Zeus
08-16-2012, 01:22 PM
This.

Completely agree. Sure Webb might not be starting material... but we're not even sure if Ponder's starting material. Webb brings enough to the table to be a formidable backup, I'm happy to have him on the roster.

So - if the Vikings start 2-2 and Ponder gets injured, you're more comfortable with Joe Webb starting the last 12 games than Rosenfels?

=Z=

NodakPaul
08-16-2012, 02:13 PM
So - if the Vikings start 2-2 and Ponder gets injured, you're more comfortable with Joe Webb starting the last 12 games than Rosenfels?

=Z=

That's a tough question...

I would say yes. I would rather have Webb than Rosenfels. Rosenfels has under impressed for a few years now, never living up to what I thought he could have. Webb has had a shitty training camp and game so far, but he still has had more flashes as a Vikings QB than Sage has. I think Webb is higher risk/higher reward.

Besides, if Ponder is injured, what little hope I have for this season is shot anyway, so we may as well roll the dice with Web.

Zeus
08-16-2012, 02:46 PM
That's a tough question...

I would say yes. I would rather have Webb than Rosenfels. Rosenfels has under impressed for a few years now, never living up to what I thought he could have. Webb has had a shitty training camp and game so far, but he still has had more flashes as a Vikings QB than Sage has. I think Webb is higher risk/higher reward.

Besides, if Ponder is injured, what little hope I have for this season is shot anyway, so we may as well roll the dice with Web.

Webb has shown flashes when he's come in as a mid-game replacement. As the starter, he's looked like poo.

=Z=

C Mac D
08-16-2012, 03:26 PM
So - if the Vikings start 2-2 and Ponder gets injured, you're more comfortable with Joe Webb starting the last 12 games than Rosenfels?

=Z=

Absolutely. Rosenfels is awful. Everyone seems to realize that but you.

You need to let go of that "Iowa State fan-boy" perspective.

Zeus
08-16-2012, 04:27 PM
Absolutely. Rosenfels is awful. Everyone seems to realize that but you.

You need to let go of that "Iowa State fan-boy" perspective.

Webb is worse. That much is obvious.

=Z=

Purple Floyd
08-17-2012, 08:28 AM
I would vote to move Webb to the secondary.

And if we need a backup QB I think TJ will be available soon. If we brought him back I think he could actually be ready to be a starter in a few years. He just needs a little more time.

NodakPaul
08-17-2012, 10:22 AM
I would vote to move Webb to the secondary.

And if we need a backup QB I think TJ will be available soon. If we brought him back I think he could actually be ready to be a starter in a few years. He just needs a little more time.

LMAO. OK, that was funny. :D

C Mac D
08-17-2012, 10:24 AM
Webb is worse. That much is obvious.

=Z=

That's why Rosenfels is third on the depth chart?

GALLY
08-17-2012, 11:04 AM
Webb as in game back up is where he will excel the most. Just as someone else pointed out in this thread...when he comes in mid-game the other team has not prepared for his style of play and he can make things happen when plays break down. In a short term situation as a mid game replacement his athletic ability can take over and he makes plays.

It seems in many cases when back up QB's get forced into game action they usually seem to do better than when they start the game. I think that's because the pressure is less, the other team hasn't prepared for their skill set, and there are not the same expectations.

PackSux!
08-17-2012, 07:07 PM
Webb is worse. That much is obvious.

=Z=


That is why Bethel-Thompson will end up being our backup to Ponder this season. I can't wait to watch him toss the pigskin around tonight.

My prediction will be that Ponder, Rosencopter and Bethel-Thompson will be our three quarterbacks this season. I have no idea what will happen to Webb, but if he keeps performing like he did last week he might end up in the unemployment line.

Rath
08-17-2012, 11:53 PM
Maybe we should use Webb as a D. palmer type rb. He has serious running talent, sure he can catch a simple swing pass. He has the arm to throw an option pass if the running lane isn't there. He needs major work in the pocket, however a play or 2 a game he can be electric.

Randy Moss
08-18-2012, 12:17 AM
That is why Bethel-Thompson will end up being our backup to Ponder this season. I can't wait to watch him toss the pigskin around tonight.

My prediction will be that Ponder, Rosencopter and Bethel-Thompson will be our three quarterbacks this season. I have no idea what will happen to Webb, but if he keeps performing like he did last week he might end up in the unemployment line.

Well, they didn't play MBT. Maybe they're going to try to sneak him onto the practice squad.

PackSux!
08-18-2012, 12:32 AM
Well, they didn't play MBT. Maybe they're going to try to sneak him onto the practice squad.

I was bummed to not see Bethel-Thompson play myself. Take away the running game of Webb and he was not impressive at all.

12purplepride28
08-18-2012, 01:19 AM
I was bummed to not see Bethel-Thompson play myself. Take away the running game of Webb and he was not impressive at all.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Take away anyone's best attribute and they aren't that impressive.

PackSux!
08-18-2012, 11:17 AM
What a ridiculous thing to say. Take away anyone's best attribute and they aren't that impressive.

We are talking about a quarterback here. I personally dont want my quarterback to be better at running then throwing.

Purple Floyd
08-18-2012, 11:54 AM
With as good as he is in the open field I would like to see him return punts and kicks.

singersp
08-18-2012, 12:27 PM
I was bummed to not see Bethel-Thompson play myself. Take away the running game of Webb and he was not impressive at all.

Take away nothing from Sage and he sucked except for 1 long pass.

Randy Moss
08-18-2012, 01:26 PM
I was bummed to not see Bethel-Thompson play myself. Take away the running game of Webb and he was not impressive at all.

Agreed, even his easy passes across the middle were way off target. I feel like were just wasting all that talent by pretending that he might ever be a decent quarterback.

PackSux!
08-18-2012, 06:12 PM
Take away nothing from Sage and he sucked except for 1 long pass.

Very true. The only thing going for Sage is his vet status, if there is even any.

PackSux!
08-18-2012, 06:14 PM
With as good as he is in the open field I would like to see him return punts and kicks.

We need to do something with him if he is going to be on the 53 man roster.

MaxVike
08-18-2012, 07:23 PM
Pace of change, back up QB...for now. As Spielman said during the broadcast, his style is completely different than Ponder's...which, makes it difficult to prepare for both. Fine for now IMO.

iowa
08-18-2012, 08:47 PM
Webb is too explosive of a weapon to be a back up QB, we need all the playmakers we can get and Joe is capable of scoring on any given play.If we could get him 5 - 10 touches per game he could be a difference maker.Maybe kind of a hybrid WR/RB combo similar to what Percy does.He could still be an emergency QB if needed.

mountainviking
08-18-2012, 11:36 PM
He's so freaking fast! Gotta love the way he runs!! Not sure how to use him more tho...its not like anybody can just up and suddenly start catching balls like a WR. He's starting to look like a faster, shiftier Tebow!? :confused:

MrFlix
08-19-2012, 03:44 AM
This might be a stupid suggestion but why not use him as wildcat QB? If the other team sees webb coming on the field they will suggest a wildcat but the good thing is, the man can run fast and he can catch. He isn't an amazing WR or QB but he has a bit of both. And that can confuse the other team.

I'm not that experienced with football decisions but it's what I would do :)

Purple Floyd
08-19-2012, 10:13 AM
It would seem the the "wildcat" or ''Blazer" causes more confusion for our offense than the opposing defense.

I might not speak for the O.C but I always believe you just line up and beat their 11 with our 11.A gadget play may work 2-3x a season but it isn't something that I want them to have as a staple of the game plan.

If he can't fit into any position on the offense then he is just a great athlete and not a football player.

vikinggreg
08-19-2012, 11:55 AM
It would seem the the "wildcat" or ''Blazer" causes more confusion for our offense than the opposing defense.

I might not speak for the O.C but I always believe you just line up and beat their 11 with our 11.A gadget play may work 2-3x a season but it isn't something that I want them to have as a staple of the game plan.

If he can't fit into any position on the offense then he is just a great athlete and not a football player.

I think when you also factor in the holes and lack of depth through out the rest of the roster can the team really afford to spend time and energy on a great guy and athlete that is a gadget at the moment. I'd like to say yes but have a hard time seeing a place for him over the near future, he's racing stripes on a car without a transmission, bald tires and the engine could be iffy.

iowa
08-19-2012, 12:44 PM
No more "blazer package" what a freakin debacle that thing was.Why not put him in the backfield with Ponder, hand it to him, pitch it, swing pass, reverse, etc. and occasionally Joe could put it up himself.The dude is electric with the ball in his hands, why not take advantage of it.

Ohjay
08-19-2012, 12:49 PM
As I wrote in the thread about the 2nd preseason game, I don't see Webb as a "Traditional" NFL QB, his instincts are not right for it, and trying to change his instincts will only limit his talent.
I'd rather see him as a WR/RB depending on his catching abilities(I haven't seen enough to form an opinion), and then set up some option plays with Webb as QB to befuddle opponents.
I think Webb would be excellent in a double-/triple-option Wingback(Wing-T) play and it would mix things up quite well...

Question is what we'd do at QB if Ponder gets injured because Sage doesn't look all that good and although I sort of like MBT I don't think we've seen enough to say that he can be a backup QB. I liked what I saw in 1st preseason game, but that's nothing to form an opinion on. Unfortunately I think we're stuck with Webb as backup QB for this season and hopefully we can get a decent backup FA QB next year and move Webb to another position that better compliments his skill set.

singersp
08-19-2012, 01:28 PM
He's so freaking fast! Gotta love the way he runs!! Not sure how to use him more tho...its not like anybody can just up and suddenly start catching balls like a WR. He's starting to look like a faster, shiftier Tebow!? :confused:

Please tell me you didn't just compare Webb to Tebow.

singersp
08-19-2012, 01:30 PM
This might be a stupid suggestion but why not use him as wildcat QB? If the other team sees webb coming on the field they will suggest a wildcat but the good thing is, the man can run fast and he can catch. He isn't an amazing WR or QB but he has a bit of both. And that can confuse the other team.

I'm not that experienced with football decisions but it's what I would do :)

That automatically qualifies him as our #3 WR.

NodakPaul
08-19-2012, 02:42 PM
That automatically qualifies him as our #3 WR.

LOL. So true! :D

Minniman
08-22-2012, 12:13 PM
If the Vikings ran a real Walsh WCO, they could line up Webb or Harvin split behind Ponder.

The Wildcat is a joke. Just handoff the ball to Webb and let him run. We can only hope Webb can block.

NodakPaul
08-22-2012, 12:36 PM
If the Vikings ran a real Walsh WCO, they could line up Webb or Harvin split behind Ponder.

The Wildcat is a joke. Just handoff the ball to Webb and let him run. We can only hope Webb can block.

To run a real Walsh WCO, we need a WR corp that who are sure handed and comfortable catching the ball in traffic, a RB who excels at catching out of the backfield, and a QB who can read the defenses almost immediately and is accurate enough to throw blindly into traffic. It overemphasized short accurate passes and deemphasized running plays and deep routes.

Unfortunately all of our WRs, with the exception of Harvin and possibly Simpson, either suck or are unproven. And our RB, while easily the best in the NFL, is not a great pass catching RB. And our QB, while improving, is not at that level yet and it is unknown if he will be.

The WCO when run in its purest form is a thing of beauty. But our team is not set up for it.

But I agree, the Wildcat is a joke and needs to be retired. Now.

Minniman
08-22-2012, 01:19 PM
To run a real Walsh WCO, we need a WR corp that who are sure handed and comfortable catching the ball in traffic, ... , and a QB who can read the defenses almost immediately and is accurate enough to throw blindly into traffic. It overemphasized short accurate passes and deemphasized running plays and deep routes.

Unfortunately all of our WRs, with the exception of Harvin and possibly Simpson, either suck or are unproven. ... And our QB, while improving, is not at that level yet and it is unknown if he will be.

The WCO when run in its purest form is a thing of beauty. But our team is not set up for it.

Yeah, I regretfully agree. We can't all be the Packers, Saints, and Patriots. Modified WCO offenses rule the NFL. Anything else is substandard.

The irony is that Childress used the WCO nomenclature, but he did not embrace the theory. It took Brett Favre and his audibles to make it work.

I can't really tell what Bill Musgrave is running this season. I see short routes, but they look like set patterns rather than dual read routes.

My WCO comment was actually to say that the Vikings rarely use the split set. They use single back or the "I", and that would not work as well for Webb or Harvin lining up in the backfield.


And our RB, while easily the best in the NFL, is not a great pass catching RB.

How can a running back that is not great at catching passes be easily the best in the NFL? One would think that would limit his threatability.

Webby
08-23-2012, 01:24 AM
Bottom line guys, experiment needs to end. A freak athlete without specialized NFL position skills is no longer worth the effort. It was a good idea on the off chance it hit. I want to see if MBT has anything and just resolve the backup deal. sage can service,but we need more from a backup.