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singersp
06-22-2012, 07:10 AM
Vikings won't make Ponder compete for job

Vikings won't make Ponder compete for job (http://www.foxsportsnorth.com/06/21/12/Vikings-wont-make-Ponder-compete-for-job/landing_mnvikings.html?blockID=749958&feedID=3697)

i_bleed_purple
06-22-2012, 10:06 AM
That's good. Let him be comfortable and not worry about a guy creeping up behind him.... as is the Vikings way

C Mac D
06-22-2012, 12:29 PM
He was out-played by Joe Webb last year. They had the same completion percentage (54%), Ponder had a higher INT%, Webb had a higher QB rating and only had one win less than Ponder, despite starting only 2 games to Ponder's 10.

Webb also had 154 yards and 2 TDs on the ground. To say he ads another dimension to this offense is an understatement.

It's not a good sign when coaches assign a starter without evaluating talent... seems to be the MO in Minnesota though.

Johnson14
06-22-2012, 12:58 PM
Vikings won't make Ponder compete for job

Vikings won't make Ponder compete for job (http://www.foxsportsnorth.com/06/21/12/Vikings-wont-make-Ponder-compete-for-job/landing_mnvikings.html?blockID=749958&feedID=3697)

No surprise in the slightest, they handed him the #2 spot at the start of last year when he'd done squat in pre season to even remotely warrant it. This is their guy, they went all-in on a massive reach with the 12th overall pick, they will do everything to prove that they didn't drop the ball on this one.

i_bleed_purple
06-22-2012, 02:12 PM
He was out-played by Joe Webb last year. They had the same completion percentage (54%), Ponder had a higher INT%, Webb had a higher QB rating and only had one win less than Ponder, despite starting only 2 games to Ponder's 10.

Webb also had 154 yards and 2 TDs on the ground. To say he ads another dimension to this offense is an understatement.

It's not a good sign when coaches assign a starter without evaluating talent... seems to be the MO in Minnesota though.

Don't forget Webb was about 2 yards and a missed facemask penalty from having another comeback win vs. the Lions as well...

C Mac D
06-22-2012, 02:13 PM
Don't forget Webb was about 2 yards and a missed facemask penalty from having another comeback win vs. the Lions as well...

Yeah, it's pretty clear who the better football player is of the two. For some reason our coaches have trouble seeing that, they have since 2006.

i_bleed_purple
06-22-2012, 02:55 PM
Yeah, it's pretty clear who the better football player is of the two. For some reason our coaches have trouble seeing that, they have since 2006.

Remember the good old Tice vs. Chilly arguments that were had here?


Ahh.. brings me back.

AngloVike
06-22-2012, 03:05 PM
He was out-played by Joe Webb last year. They had the same completion percentage (54%), Ponder had a higher INT%, Webb had a higher QB rating and only had one win less than Ponder, despite starting only 2 games to Ponder's 10.

Webb also had 154 yards and 2 TDs on the ground. To say he ads another dimension to this offense is an understatement.

It's not a good sign when coaches assign a starter without evaluating talent... seems to be the MO in Minnesota though.

I'd assume they had evaluated the talent, else there would have been no need to draft Ponder in the first instance and thereby 'waste' that pick. Still always good to see the fanbase willing to give the rookie the benefit of the doubt especially after an almost non existent off season when you'd expect him to be on a steep learning curve. Instead his learning curve was the regular season.
You think Webb would have put up numbers like that through 10 games when teams would have been planning for him. Thats the beauty of being the backup, you're overlooked by the opposition and the fanbase favourite when the team isn't doing well.

C Mac D
06-22-2012, 09:43 PM
Remember the good old Tice vs. Chilly arguments that were had here?


Ahh.. brings me back.

Remember the "Eminem is a Genius" thread? Haha... that was great.

Caine
06-23-2012, 10:34 AM
Atta boy,. Chiller. v Stick to your guns. Jackson will pan out. You'll make them all see how brilliant you are with your KAO!!





huh?





What's that?




Oh crap, I was having flashbacks.....




PTCD - Post Traumatic Chiller Disorder. It triggers whenever something incredibly stupid is done by a Head Coach of the Vikings.






I expect it to trigger a lot this season....

Caine

Ranger
06-23-2012, 11:20 AM
People are giving up on Ponder already? SKOL VIKING FANS.

Caine
06-23-2012, 02:50 PM
People are giving up on Ponder already? SKOL VIKING FANS.

It's not giving up on Ponder....it's not being ready to anoint him the chosen one. He hasn't earned it, he hasn't proven anything, and Webb has played well. Yet, despite the obvious, the HC wants to declare his pick the favorite....


It's all too familiar...

Caine

Randy Moss
06-23-2012, 06:01 PM
Webb will never be a legitimate starting QB in this league. Why waste time having him start?

Dibbzz
06-23-2012, 07:00 PM
Christian Ponder deserves to get the starting spot. As previously mentioned he didn't have any OTA's or mini-camps and a very rushed Training Camp. There's going to be a learning curve and growing pains for any rookie quarterback. Given the set of circumstances of the NFL Lockout last year I feel like Ponder played fairly well. He had a decent first start against the Packers and almost won that game. If you're looking at the stat sheet and compare him to other rookie quarterbacks like Cam Newton then yeah it's easy to say he didn't play well. I say let's give this kid the benefit of the doubt and judge him after this year before we start asking for his and the coaching staff's heads. We added some pieces around him like Kalil and Schwartz so hopefully he'll stay vertical longer to make reads and to get the ball out. If he stinks this year then yeah maybe we should explore other options to create a quarterback competition in camp to light a fire under his ass (similar to what the Jets did in New York bringing in Tebow) but for now I'm okay with the coaching staff's decision naming him the starter.

Freakout
06-24-2012, 10:34 AM
People are giving up on Ponder already? SKOL VIKING FANS.

The hilarious part is some of the fans pining for Webb are the ones that hated Jackson.

singersp
06-25-2012, 07:08 AM
That's good. Let him be comfortable and not worry about a guy creeping up behind him.... as is the Vikings way

Really? Only a few years ago people were all up in arms every offseason complaining because we didn't have a viable back up QB in camp competing for the starting QB job.

Not once did I here someone state that they didn't want another QB in here so that our QB could be comfortable and not have to worry about a guy creeping up behind him.

singersp
06-25-2012, 07:30 AM
He was out-played by Joe Webb last year. They had the same completion percentage (54%), Ponder had a higher INT%, Webb had a higher QB rating and only had one win less than Ponder, despite starting only 2 games to Ponder's 10.

Ponder got credit for two wins, but he didn't win them both. Ponder's 1st win happened thanx to a missed FG bu the Panthers.

His 2nd win, which some people give him credit for, he didn't win at all. He passed for a total of 68 yards & had 0 TD's. Webb came in on the 2nd drive of the 3rd quarter with the Vikings losing & took them to the endzone on the 3rd play by running it in himself.

He further went on to pass for 2 more TD's & the Vikings won the game.

To be honest with you, both QB's won 1 game. I'm not sure how you came up with Webb having 1 less win than Ponder. We only had 3 wins all season & McNabb won the 1st one.

Johnson14
06-25-2012, 10:35 AM
It's not giving up on Ponder....it's not being ready to anoint him the chosen one. He hasn't earned it, he hasn't proven anything, and Webb has played well. Yet, despite the obvious, the HC wants to declare his pick the favorite....


It's all too familiar...

Caine

110% correct, spot on.. good post.

C Mac D
06-25-2012, 11:58 AM
The hilarious part is some of the fans pining for Webb are the ones that hated Jackson.

I hated Jackson? News to me.

Caine, you believe this?

Marrdro
06-25-2012, 01:34 PM
It's not giving up on Ponder....it's not being ready to anoint him the chosen one. He hasn't earned it, he hasn't proven anything, and Webb has played well. Yet, despite the obvious, the HC wants to declare his pick the favorite....


It's all too familiar...

Caine
How can you say Webb has played well? Kid can run and is fun to watch doing it, but he can't throw the ball with any consistency, probably won't ever be able to (thus the WR projection).

Said it before and I'll say it again. Vikings fans don't have a clue what it takes to develop a QB because they don't have the patience to develop one.

Truth of the matter is we won't know what we have with respect to Ponder for probably 2 or 3 more years. If you doubt that go look at the Cats everyone was anointing after 1 year like Ryan or Flacco. Serviceable yes, but are they the answer or just decent/viable options.

Here's my main issue with Ponder and it doesn't have anything to do with Ponder. How are we the fans expected to see growth in the kid if we can't trust the O-coord (and the coaches under him) to develop him.

We saw Load slip last year, now were seeing Percy beeeyatching about the scheme and if he can hit is escalators so he gets paid.

I'm of a mind to call this season a wash right from the get go with ole Musgrove calling the shots.

keystonevike
06-25-2012, 07:52 PM
I like Ponder, but I don't like the idea of naming him the starter now. Have an open competition for the job. Give Webb a chance to push Ponder to be better or push him out.

NodakPaul
06-25-2012, 09:04 PM
The most popular player on a team is always the backup QB... :)

I don't agree that there needs to be any kind of QB competition. I know that Webb seems to be a favorite of some, but the fact is he didn't do anything special last year. He came in as a backup and played mediocre at best. He simply didn't do anything to warrant a competition. If he had lit up the field I could understand it... But he didn't.

Now I realize that Ponder didn't do anything special either, but we did draft him in the first round to be the future at QB. He may or may not be, but I think it is important to be committed to him through out the offseason to give him the best chance at succeeding.

If Ponder fails, then we need to look for a QB again. Webb is not the answer. He is a serviceable backup, but a mediocre starter at best. I saw enough mediocre QB for the Vikings during the Chilly years. Let's not repeat the same mistakes.

Marrdro
06-26-2012, 09:55 AM
The most popular player on a team is always the backup QB... :)

I don't agree that there needs to be any kind of QB competition. I know that Webb seems to be a favorite of some, but the fact is he didn't do anything special last year. He came in as a backup and played mediocre at best. He simply didn't do anything to warrant a competition. If he had lit up the field I could understand it... But he didn't.

Now I realize that Ponder didn't do anything special either, but we did draft him in the first round to be the future at QB. He may or may not be, but I think it is important to be committed to him through out the offseason to give him the best chance at succeeding.

If Ponder fails, then we need to look for a QB again. Webb is not the answer. He is a serviceable backup, but a mediocre starter at best. I saw enough mediocre QB for the Vikings during the Chilly years. Let's not repeat the same mistakes.

To late. I dusted off the spread sheets, pulled out the one "Those that have a clue" and checked.....Your name was already on it.....

JK my friend. Excellent post.

midgensa
06-26-2012, 03:28 PM
I personally don't see any problem with this.

This team took Ponder in the first round with the projection of starting him. They have little choice but to put their eggs in that basket. I think if the coaches saw a SERIOUS difference ... like a guy they thought could win 8-9 games over a guy that can win 4-5 games ... then maybe you pull the trigger. But as of now, they have no reason to think Webb=more wins than Ponder.

Both quarterbacks have looked good at times and both have looked horrid at times. I personally love Joe Webb and think that he could be a weapon and had they chosen to let him compete, would have had no problem with that ... but in the end, the only thing that makes sense is to go with the guy you drafted and hung your hat on to turn things around.

Webb will always be a serviceable backup in the league and that is fine and dandy ... but I don't think anyone really thinks he is a serious top-tier quarterback. Ponder might not be either (I don't personally think he is) but we need to run him out there and see.

C Mac D
06-26-2012, 05:05 PM
I personally don't see any problem with this.

This team took Ponder in the first round with the projection of starting him. They have little choice but to put their eggs in that basket. I think if the coaches saw a SERIOUS difference ... like a guy they thought could win 8-9 games over a guy that can win 4-5 games ... then maybe you pull the trigger. But as of now, they have no reason to think Webb=more wins than Ponder.

Both quarterbacks have looked good at times and both have looked horrid at times. I personally love Joe Webb and think that he could be a weapon and had they chosen to let him compete, would have had no problem with that ... but in the end, the only thing that makes sense is to go with the guy you drafted and hung your hat on to turn things around.

Webb will always be a serviceable backup in the league and that is fine and dandy ... but I don't think anyone really thinks he is a serious top-tier quarterback. Ponder might not be either (I don't personally think he is) but we need to run him out there and see.

It's this sorta attitude which infuriates me. We just need to roll with Ponder because of where he was drafted? Not which player performs on the field... but which player has the bigger contract. Got it.

Teams draft guys that give them the best chance to compete, most of the time those guys are drafted in higher rounds... but sometimes those guys don't pan-out, that doesn't mean the team should stick with them regardless. You have to have competition at every position to see which players deserve to be on the field, regardless of where they're drafted or how big their contract is.

C Mac D
06-26-2012, 05:38 PM
I like Ponder, but I don't like the idea of naming him the starter now. Have an open competition for the job. Give Webb a chance to push Ponder to be better or push him out.

Exactly. Frazier has removed all competition from the QB position, only one week after saying competition is the key to remaining competitive: Frazier sees competition as key to being, well, competitive | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/15/frazier-sees-competition-as-key-to-being-well-competitive/)

Can't make this stuff up. What a joke.

NodakPaul
06-26-2012, 05:39 PM
It's this sorta attitude which infuriates me. We just need to roll with Ponder because of where he was drafted? Not which player performs on the field... but which player has the bigger contract. Got it.

Teams draft guys that give them the best chance to compete, most of the time those guys are drafted in higher rounds... but sometimes those guys don't pan-out, that doesn't mean the team should stick with them regardless. You have to have competition at every position to see which players deserve to be on the field, regardless of where they're drafted or how big their contract is.

No, we need to roll with Ponder because there is no evidence that there is a better option out there - it is his job to lose.

I don't hear anyone complaining that Jared Allen isn't in open competition for his job. Or Adrian Peterson. Or Greenway. Or even Brinkley. Or Loadholt or Kalil or Rudolph. These are people who have been installed as starters, and are going into the season with that designation. Just like Ponder. Obviously they have to prove that they deserve to be there during training camp - everyone does regardless of contract or position. But coming into camp installed as starter is a helluva lot different that having some kind of competition.

On that note, can anyone name me a single time when a team went into training camp with an open competition for QB and it worked out well? Anyone? (crickets chirp) Of course not. That is because teams never have two GOOD QBs on the roster at the same time. If there is a competition that means that they have two mediocre QBs, and the "winner" is still mediocre.

C Mac D
06-26-2012, 05:56 PM
No, we need to roll with Ponder because there is no evidence that there is a better option out there - it is his job to lose.

I don't hear anyone complaining that Jared Allen isn't in open competition for his job. Or Adrian Peterson. Or Greenway. Or even Brinkley. Or Loadholt or Kalil or Rudolph. These are people who have been installed as starters, and are going into the season with that designation. Just like Ponder. Obviously they have to prove that they deserve to be there during training camp - everyone does regardless of contract or position. But coming into camp installed as starter is a helluva lot different that having some kind of competition.

On that note, can anyone name me a single time when a team went into training camp with an open competition for QB and it worked out well? Anyone? (crickets chirp) Of course not. That is because teams never have two GOOD QBs on the roster at the same time. If there is a competition that means that they have two mediocre QBs, and the "winner" is still mediocre.

Yes there is a better option, and he's on our roster... at least if you're going to take last year's performance into play.

By saying Webb is not starting material, you're saying Ponder isn't either. Ponder simply was outplayed by Webb last year... there's really no arguing that.

Allen, Peterson and Kalil are different... they are elite talents. They're some of the best at the position, period. Them being on the roster makes other players at the same positions better by competing with them.

Can anyone name when we went into camp without a QB competition and we won the Super Bowl? No? Oh, okay... I thought that was the goal. So I guess both sides of the argument are moot.

midgensa
06-26-2012, 07:45 PM
It's this sorta attitude which infuriates me. We just need to roll with Ponder because of where he was drafted? Not which player performs on the field... but which player has the bigger contract. Got it.

Teams draft guys that give them the best chance to compete, most of the time those guys are drafted in higher rounds... but sometimes those guys don't pan-out, that doesn't mean the team should stick with them regardless. You have to have competition at every position to see which players deserve to be on the field, regardless of where they're drafted or how big their contract is.

I agree for the most part. As I said, I would not have had a problem with them saying it was an open competition either, but I don't have a problem with Ponder coming in as the guy either.

I personally did not see enough of a difference in Webb last year, or the year before, and Ponder to say Webb should be the guy. As I state ... they both seemed to have solid moments and they both seemed to have extremely bad moments.

I don't think that Ponder deserves the job more just because of his draft position. I more so figure they are a toss up and Ponder's draft position does help him in that case because you are more or less hitched to him. As long as they seem to be comparing apples to apples ... I feel like taking a shot with what was supposed to be the better apple.

If they come into camp and Webb is dominating and he clearly is looking better, I have no problem with the switch. And you can bet your ass that if the team comes out of the gate 0-4 and Ponder has a 68 QB rating ... the team will start hearing it. But right now ... I don't really have a problem with naming the guy the starter that you drafted to be the started. Giving the team and offense a defacto leader.

jargomcfargo
06-26-2012, 08:30 PM
No, we need to roll with Ponder because there is no evidence that there is a better option out there - it is his job to lose.

I don't hear anyone complaining that Jared Allen isn't in open competition for his job. Or Adrian Peterson. Or Greenway. Or even Brinkley. Or Loadholt or Kalil or Rudolph. These are people who have been installed as starters, and are going into the season with that designation. Just like Ponder. Obviously they have to prove that they deserve to be there during training camp - everyone does regardless of contract or position. But coming into camp installed as starter is a helluva lot different that having some kind of competition.

On that note, can anyone name me a single time when a team went into training camp with an open competition for QB and it worked out well? Anyone? (crickets chirp) Of course not. That is because teams never have two GOOD QBs on the roster at the same time. If there is a competition that means that they have two mediocre QBs, and the "winner" is still mediocre.

Crickets chirp indeed. Not often, so I'll have to go back a bit to find some of the better examples.
But there are some recent examples as well.

Bledsoe/Brady,Montana/Young,Majkowski/Favre,Favre/Rodgers,Rivers/Brees,Tebow/Orton,Warner/Lienart,Testaverde/Kosar,Aikman/Staubach,Staubach/Craig Morton,Jeff Hostetler/Phil Simms, and Earl Morral/Bob Griese.
One could say Lienart, Tebow and Orton weren't legit, but most of the rest were pretty darn good.

The fact is, Ponder is the chosen one. The chosen one has not performed any better than his back up. Which means neither one performed very well.
The chosen one deserves every opportunity to develop into the franchise QB the front office thinks he can become.
He needs to get every single snap he can get. That's why there is no competition.

But I wouldn't summarily dismiss Webb like you have. Why can't Webb develop and improve like Ponder if he had been the chosen one?
Is Ponder really smarter? It doesn't take an Albert Einstien clone to complete college in 2.5 years when you enter college with 1.5 years worth of college credit!

I think Ponder will be the guy, just like you do. But don't be surprised if Webb takes his job if he gets hurt.

I'm happy with both of our top 2 quarterbacks. One of them is going to turn out to be very good.

BTW, the Vikings have a history of casting off good back up quarterbacks such as Brad Johnson and Rich Gannon.

I hope they hang on to Joe Webb.

singersp
06-27-2012, 05:30 AM
Crickets chirp indeed. Not often, so I'll have to go back a bit to find some of the better examples.
But there are some recent examples as well.

Bledsoe/Brady,Montana/Young,Majkowski/Favre,Favre/Rodgers,Rivers/Brees,Tebow/Orton,Warner/Lienart,Testaverde/Kosar,Aikman/Staubach,Staubach/Craig Morton,Jeff Hostetler/Phil Simms, and Earl Morral/Bob Griese.
One could say Lienart, Tebow and Orton weren't legit, but most of the rest were pretty darn good.

The fact is, Ponder is the chosen one. The chosen one has not performed any better than his back up. Which means neither one performed very well.
The chosen one deserves every opportunity to develop into the franchise QB the front office thinks he can become.
He needs to get every single snap he can get. That's why there is no competition.

But I wouldn't summarily dismiss Webb like you have. Why can't Webb develop and improve like Ponder if he had been the chosen one?
Is Ponder really smarter? It doesn't take an Albert Einstien clone to complete college in 2.5 years when you enter college with 1.5 years worth of college credit!

I think Ponder will be the guy, just like you do. But don't be surprised if Webb takes his job if he gets hurt.

I'm happy with both of our top 2 quarterbacks. One of them is going to turn out to be very good.

BTW, the Vikings have a history of casting off good back up quarterbacks such as Brad Johnson and Rich Gannon.

I hope they hang on to Joe Webb.

You were doing well until you mentioned Tebow.

singersp
06-27-2012, 05:33 AM
The most popular player on a team is always the backup QB... :)

I don't agree that there needs to be any kind of QB competition. I know that Webb seems to be a favorite of some, but the fact is he didn't do anything special last year. He came in as a backup and played mediocre at best. He simply didn't do anything to warrant a competition. If he had lit up the field I could understand it... But he didn't.

What did Ponder do to not warrant some competition? He didn't do anything special last year. He came in as a backup before being anointed the starter and played mediocre also.

C Mac D
06-27-2012, 08:31 AM
I like Ponder, but I don't like the idea of naming him the starter now. Have an open competition for the job. Give Webb a chance to push Ponder to be better or push him out.Exactly. Frazier has removed all competition from the QB position, only one week after saying competition is the key to remaining competitive: Frazier sees competition as key to being, well, competitive | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/15/frazier-sees-competition-as-key-to-being-well-competitive/)

Can't make this stuff up. What a joke.

Just wanted to re-post this because it shows the absurdity behind our HC's thought process.

And because it's a great post.

NodakPaul
06-27-2012, 08:39 AM
Yes there is a better option, and he's on our roster... at least if you're going to take last year's performance into play.

By saying Webb is not starting material, you're saying Ponder isn't either. Ponder simply was outplayed by Webb last year... there's really no arguing that.

Allen, Peterson and Kalil are different... they are elite talents. They're some of the best at the position, period. Them being on the roster makes other players at the same positions better by competing with them.

Can anyone name when we went into camp without a QB competition and we won the Super Bowl? No? Oh, okay... I thought that was the goal. So I guess both sides of the argument are moot.

I understand what you are saying about Webb, but I respectfully disagree. Webb's performance was not better than Ponder's last year. They were pretty damn close to the same.

Ponder's 2011 Stats
347

Webb's 2011 Stats
348

QB Rating, Passing %, Avg Yards per pass, Avg Yards per Run, INT %, etc... they are all incredibly comparable. You say that there is no arguing that Webb outplayed Ponder - I fail to see how you come to that conclusion.

If Webb had outplayed Ponder last year I would be fine with a QB competition. But he didn't.

NodakPaul
06-27-2012, 08:53 AM
What did Ponder do to not warrant some competition? He didn't do anything special last year. He came in as a backup before being anointed the starter and played mediocre also.

Yes, he played mediocre. No arguing that from me. He needs to play significantly better this year in order to keep the starting spot IMHO.

But keep in mind that we also drafted him where we did because the front office and coaching staff believed that he had the potential to be a starter in the NFL.

Ask yourself honestly - who do you think has a better chance to be a top ten starter in the NFL, Ponder or Webb? Webb has exceeded expectations while Ponder underperformed last year... and yet they still played about the same. Webb would have had to play better than Ponder to warrant a competition, and he did not.

Also, the idea that there is NO competition is absurd. Obviously if Ponder stinks it up in training camp while Webb performs, there will be a switch. And you can say that about every position. By naming Ponder the starter now, Frazier is giving the offense some stability. People were all up in arms when Harvin was hinting at a trade, and most believe that a big part of that is the way the offense is being run. Don't you think that making the QB an unknown would exaggerate that?

I think naming Ponder the starter is the right move. I also don't think that Webb will ever be more than a backup, but I am willing to concede that we haven't seen enough of his play to be sure of that.

C Mac D
06-27-2012, 09:07 AM
I understand what you are saying about Webb, but I respectfully disagree. Webb's performance was not better than Ponder's last year. They were pretty damn close to the same.

Ponder's 2011 Stats
347

Webb's 2011 Stats
348

QB Rating, Passing %, Avg Yards per pass, Avg Yards per Run, INT %, etc... they are all incredibly comparable. You say that there is no arguing that Webb outplayed Ponder - I fail to see how you come to that conclusion.

If Webb had outplayed Ponder last year I would be fine with a QB competition. But he didn't.

You forgot to point out that Webb also had 150 yards rushing and 2 TDs in those 2 games. Couple that with his lower INT%, higher QB rating and better winning %... I came to the conclusion that Webb outplayed Ponder last year.

tastywaves
06-27-2012, 10:32 AM
You forgot to point out that Webb also had 150 yards rushing and 2 TDs in those 2 games. Couple that with his lower INT%, higher QB rating and better winning %... I came to the conclusion that Webb outplayed Ponder last year.

As Nodak I believe is trying to point out, I think you are looking at this wrong.

Just so we are on the same page, I have a few questions:
1) Do you believe that Webb can be a franchise QB for the Vikings?
2) Do you believe that Ponder can be a franchise QB for the Vikings?

If your answer is Yes for #1 and No for #2, then I undersand your argument. The Vikings coaching staff obviously doesn't agree, but that's what we are here for, to straighten them out.

If your answer is Yes for #2 and No for #1, then I think you need to declare Ponder the starter and see how he progresses. Whether Webb outplayed Ponder or not, is somewhat irrelevant if neither played particulary well. And isn't the real point to find a long term answer at QB.

If you answer NO to both #1 and #2 which is what I suspect you will. Then we're arguing about TJ vs Sage all over again and I doubt anyone wants to go down that meaningless path again.

If you answer Yes to both questions, then we are truly a fortunate club and can't go wrong with either decision.

NodakPaul
06-27-2012, 11:13 AM
You forgot to point out that Webb also had 150 yards rushing and 2 TDs in those 2 games. Couple that with his lower INT%, higher QB rating and better winning %... I came to the conclusion that Webb outplayed Ponder last year.

I didn't forget to point it out. In fact I posted all of the stats for everyone to see. If you look, you will see that Webb had a LOWER Average Yards Per Carry than Ponder. Yes, he had 150 yards, but also ran the ball significantly more times - and 109 of those yards came from one game in which he had a 65 yard run. A single outlying run does not make a pattern.

I don't want to try and say that Ponder was amazing. In fact he stunk SO bad in that game against Detroit that I was floored. He should have been pulled sooner than he was. Webb came in and played decently, but do you remember that we were down by 6 in that game late in the 4th with 9 seconds left on the clock, and the Vikings were 1st and goal from the 1 when Webb fumbled trying to lateral and the Lions recovered it 60 yards downfield on their own 40? IMHO they should have called a facemask on the guy tackling Webb, but since the facemask came after the fumble it would have been moot...

Looking at the other game, Webb went 17 for 32, with 0 TDs and 2 INTs and a QB rating of 46.4... This is what happens when teams game plan against Webb.

I actually like Webb. But I am not going to make him out to be something that he isn't just because I want to complain about the coaching staff. I see him as a good backup in no small part due to the fact that he will have an advantage coming into a come in relief because of his running style. But I see Ponder as having a significantly higher upside.

NodakPaul
06-27-2012, 11:14 AM
As Nodak I believe is trying to point out, I think you are looking at this wrong.

Just so we are on the same page, I have a few questions:
1) Do you believe that Webb can be a franchise QB for the Vikings?
2) Do you believe that Ponder can be a franchise QB for the Vikings?

If your answer is Yes for #1 and No for #2, then I undersand your argument. The Vikings coaching staff obviously doesn't agree, but that's what we are here for, to straighten them out.

If your answer is Yes for #2 and No for #1, then I think you need to declare Ponder the starter and see how he progresses. Whether Webb outplayed Ponder or not, is somewhat irrelevant if neither played particulary well. And isn't the real point to find a long term answer at QB.

If you answer NO to both #1 and #2 which is what I suspect you will. Then we're arguing about TJ vs Sage all over again and I doubt anyone wants to go down that meaningless path again.

If you answer Yes to both questions, then we are truly a fortunate club and can't go wrong with either decision.

Very well put. Much better than I was able to say it. :)

C Mac D
06-27-2012, 11:35 AM
I didn't forget to point it out. In fact I posted all of the stats for everyone to see. If you look, you will see that Webb had a LOWER Average Yards Per Carry than Ponder. Yes, he had 150 yards, but also ran the ball significantly more times - and 109 of those yards came from one game in which he had a 65 yard run. A single outlying run does not make a pattern.

I don't want to try and say that Ponder was amazing. In fact he stunk SO bad in that game against Detroit that I was floored. He should have been pulled sooner than he was. Webb came in and played decently, but do you remember that we were down by 6 in that game late in the 4th with 9 seconds left on the clock, and the Vikings were 1st and goal from the 1 when Webb fumbled trying to lateral and the Lions recovered it 60 yards downfield on their own 40? IMHO they should have called a facemask on the guy tackling Webb, but since the facemask came after the fumble it would have been moot...

Looking at the other game, Webb went 17 for 32, with 0 TDs and 2 INTs and a QB rating of 46.4... This is what happens when teams game plan against Webb.

I actually like Webb. But I am not going to make him out to be something that he isn't just because I want to complain about the coaching staff. I see him as a good backup in no small part due to the fact that he will have an advantage coming into a come in relief because of his running style. But I see Ponder as having a significantly higher upside.

A 46.4 rating, eh?... and Ponder had a game against the Bears with an 8.3 QB rating, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

Ponder played no better than Webb. That's my point. How can you anoint Ponder the starter, then in the same breath say Webb isn't starting material in the NFL? (your words were "a good backup") It's a laughable viewpoint.

NodakPaul
06-27-2012, 12:10 PM
A 46.4 rating, eh?... and Ponder had a game against the Bears with an 8.3 QB rating, so I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

Ponder played no better than Webb. That's my point. How can you anoint Ponder the starter, then in the same breath say Webb isn't starting material in the NFL? (your words were "a good backup") It's a laughable viewpoint.

I thought your point was that Webb played better than Ponder... Maybe I misread you...


I came to the conclusion that Webb outplayed Ponder last year.

Yes there is a better option, and he's on our roster...

Ponder simply was outplayed by Webb last year... there's really no arguing that.

And maybe I didn't...

Either way, you are correct in saying that Ponder did not play better than Webb. As I have said several times Ponder and Webb both played mediocre. i am glad you agree with me finally. ;)

And your question about appointing Ponder over Webb when they both played about the same is a valid one. I have answered it to the best of my ability, but either I haven't been able to articulate my point or it has fallen on deaf ears.

I see more potential in Ponder than in Webb. I saw starter potential in several of his games last year. Carolina, Green Bay, Atlanta for starters. I saw potential in the oakland game too, although he made a couple of pretty bad decisions that led to INTs. His rookie was definitely showing... :)

Ponder missed most of the offseason as a rookie last year. That in no way excuses his play, but it does mean that the offseason this year is more important than it would normally be for a sophomore QB. Installing him as the starter now gives the best chance to excel, and therefore the best chance for the Vikings to win.

C Mac D
06-27-2012, 12:34 PM
I thought your point was that Webb played better than Ponder... Maybe I misread you...





And maybe I didn't...

Either way, you are correct in saying that Ponder did not play better than Webb. As I have said several times Ponder and Webb both played mediocre. i am glad you agree with me finally. ;)

And your question about appointing Ponder over Webb when they both played about the same is a valid one. I have answered it to the best of my ability, but either I haven't been able to articulate my point or it has fallen on deaf ears.

I see more potential in Ponder than in Webb. I saw starter potential in several of his games last year. Carolina, Green Bay, Atlanta for starters. I saw potential in the oakland game too, although he made a couple of pretty bad decisions that led to INTs. His rookie was definitely showing... :)

Ponder missed most of the offseason as a rookie last year. That in no way excuses his play, but it does mean that the offseason this year is more important than it would normally be for a sophomore QB. Installing him as the starter now gives the best chance to excel, and therefore the best chance for the Vikings to win.

In my opinion, he did play better than Ponder for the reasons I stated... "Ponder played no better than Webb" is that far off from "Webb outplayed Ponder"? You're going to breakdown my post because of that?

Listen, you can break it down any way you want, but Ponder didn't earn the starting spot with his performance last year... Webb on the otherhand had a better winning %, lower INT%, is more athletic and had a better QB rating. Bottom line, he made plays and gave the team a spark... something Ponder never did.

So you can argue semantics all you want, but again, it's laughable to say Ponder earned the starting spot and Webb is only "a good backup".

C Mac D
06-27-2012, 12:46 PM
Substitute Jackson, Rosenfells or Favre... and we're back where we were 3-4 years ago.

NodakPaul
06-27-2012, 02:00 PM
Webb on the otherhand had a better winning %, lower INT%, is more athletic and had a better QB rating. Bottom line, he made plays and gave the team a spark... something Ponder never did.

Your Winning % and lower INT % is based on 2 games played (neither of which he started). Pretty small sample to say that he would have been better over 11 games when teams could game plan for him...

And the "made plays and gave the team a spark" remark is entirely subjective. Again, Ponder had three or four games in which I could argue that he made plays and gave the team a spark.

And finally, I don't believe I ever said that Ponder "earned" the starting spot. If I did then I would stand corrected. He didn't earn anything last year. But as I said at least four times in this thread - I believe, based on the entire careers (both collegiate and professional) of Webb and Ponder, that Ponder has more potential than Webb. I also believe that given the offseason issues last year that this offseason is vital to the growth of a new QB. For these two reasons I think that installing Ponder as the starter now is a better solution than running a QB competition in training camp.

But if you read that and only see that "Ponder earned the starting spot and Webb is only 'a good backup,'" well then you can keep laughing at your own perceived cleverness... What ever makes you happy.

C Mac D
06-27-2012, 02:42 PM
Your Winning % and lower INT % is based on 2 games played (neither of which he started). Pretty small sample to say that he would have been better over 11 games when teams could game plan for him...

And the "made plays and gave the team a spark" remark is entirely subjective. Again, Ponder had three or four games in which I could argue that he made plays and gave the team a spark.

And finally, I don't believe I ever said that Ponder "earned" the starting spot. If I did then I would stand corrected. He didn't earn anything last year. But as I said at least four times in this thread - I believe, based on the entire careers (both collegiate and professional) of Webb and Ponder, that Ponder has more potential than Webb. I also believe that given the offseason issues last year that this offseason is vital to the growth of a new QB. For these two reasons I think that installing Ponder as the starter now is a better solution than running a QB competition in training camp.

But if you read that and only see that "Ponder earned the starting spot and Webb is only 'a good backup,'" well then you can keep laughing at your own perceived cleverness... What ever makes you happy.

And isn't your idea that Ponder has more upside purely subjective too? How are you judging Webb's upside? I mean, you can't judge Webb's upside based on actual playing time, because you've already discounted his accomplishments in those games because it was only two starts... so I guess I can't really argue Webb's upside, correct?

Perhaps you didn't say Ponder has "earned" it... but how can you say he should be declared the starter? His college career (as you point out above)? Are you serious? You mean when he went 10-4 and didn't win anything significant? Well, if that's your reasoning, I'm not too concerned as to why we see things differently. That is absolutely absurd.

He was drafted higher and played Div. I... those are the reasons for him to start. What a joke.

NodakPaul
06-27-2012, 02:59 PM
And isn't your idea that Ponder has more upside purely subjective too? I mean, it can't be based on actual playing time if you're simply going to write-off anything Webb did because it was only two games.

Perhaps you didn't say Ponder has "earned" it... but how can you say he should be declared the starter? His college career (as you point out above)? Are you serious? You mean when he went 10-4 and didn't win anything significant? Well, if that's your reasoning, I'm not too concerned as to why we see things differently. That is absolutely absurd.

He was drafted higher and played Div. I... those are the reasons for him to start. What a joke.

LOL. These conversations are fun.

Of course it is subjective. That is why I use terms such as "I think" and "I believe." And yes, my belief that Ponder has more upside is based on actual playing time as well. I am looking at all of Ponders games as well as all of Webb's games. I am not just looking at Webb's two most recent games (or more appropriately portions of games) and claiming that he outplayed anybody.

And yes, college does play into it especially in the very early years. If it didn't then what is the point of having a scouting department to begin with? Once a QB has been in the league a couple of years then we can use that body of work as a more accurate evaluation body.

I don't know how I can be any more clear... nor do I think I need to be. You are a pretty smart dude, and I am sure you understand what I am saying. You may not agree with it, and that's OK... I think I can live with it even if you think it is laughable, or absurd, or a joke...

Again I will say that I see where you are coming from here. You believe that Webb played well enough to justify a competition against Ponder, and that having a competition would push the eventual winner to perform better. I can see that as a valid opinion.

I disagree though, and believe that Ponder has a higher upside as a QB (based on everything already said), and think that a competition would only take away first team snaps from Ponder during arguably the most important training period he will see in his professional career. I also think that it would further frustrate certain members of our offense, which would have a detrimental effect on the team.

C Mac D
06-27-2012, 03:02 PM
Just waiting for someone to start arguing for Sage Rosenfells again... those were intelligent arguments. Did he ever crack 3rd on the depth chart?

I'll answer that: No.

tastywaves
06-27-2012, 03:17 PM
Just waiting for someone to start arguing for Sage Rosenfells again... those were intelligent arguments. Did he ever crack 3rd on the depth chart?

I'll answer that: No.

Sage was to Chilly as Webb is to Frazier.... Plan B

C Mac D
06-27-2012, 03:18 PM
Sage was to Chilly as Webb is to Frazier.... Plan B

Sage was plan C.

He was/is Spielman's guy.

tastywaves
06-27-2012, 03:29 PM
Sage was plan C.

He was/is Spielman's guy.

Do you believe that Webb can be our long term answer at QB?

C Mac D
06-27-2012, 03:36 PM
Do you believe that Webb can be our long term answer at QB?

Since when does long term matter? I thought everyone was about win-now... hence why we brought in Favre?

Now everyone wants a long-term answer at QB? Funny, I remember saying the same thing 4 years ago and no one agreed with me.

To answer your question, I think Webb has as much of a chance to be the long-term starter as Ponder does. To write-off one or the other (as Frazier has) is premature and myopic.

tastywaves
06-27-2012, 04:01 PM
Since when does long term matter? I thought everyone was about win-now... hence why we brought in Favre?

Now everyone wants a long-term answer at QB? Funny, I remember saying the same thing 4 years ago and no one agreed with me.

To answer your question, I think Webb has as much of a chance to be the long-term starter as Ponder does. To write-off one or the other (as Frazier has) is premature and myopic.

I don't have the same faith in Webb as you have, so I have an easier time understanding the decision. I also believe that Ponder has a decent shot at becoming a good QB in this league, and I think it makes sense to spend the time trying to improve his chances by having him get comfortable in running the offense and creating chemistry with his receivers.

By declaring an open competition at QB, it only ensures that whoever ends up getting the start will end up behind the learning curve of where they could be.

NodakPaul
06-27-2012, 04:02 PM
Since when does long term matter? I thought everyone was about win-now... hence why we brought in Favre?

Now everyone wants a long-term answer at QB? Funny, I remember saying the same thing 4 years ago and no one agreed with me.

To answer your question, I think Webb has as much of a chance to be the long-term starter as Ponder does. To write-off one or the other (as Frazier has) is premature and myopic.

And if Frazier had decided that we needed an open QB competition, many (quite possible even you) would have been saying that he lacked the leadership ability to make a decision... I honestly think this is more of a vessel for you to complain about Frazier than it is about the QB position.

I don't think Frazier has written off Webb. Just because he has made his decision with Ponder doesn't mean that he wrote off Webb. I have, and I will admit that it may be premature, although not myopic at all.

A question for you:
At what point do you think it would be important to name a starter? I am sure that even you agree that at some point stretching out a QB competition into preseason would be detrimental to the team. So what is the point that we start seeing diminishing returns? For Frazier, I think that point was after OTAs, since he didn't make his statement until after they were done. I tend to agree. I think it is extremely important to go into training camp with an installed starter so they can get as much time under center with the first team as possible.

C Mac D
06-27-2012, 04:32 PM
And if Frazier had decided that we needed an open QB competition, many (quite possible even you) would have been saying that he lacked the leadership ability to make a decision... I honestly think this is more of a vessel for you to complain about Frazier than it is about the QB position.

I don't think Frazier has written off Webb. Just because he has made his decision with Ponder doesn't mean that he wrote off Webb. I have, and I will admit that it may be premature, although not myopic at all.

A question for you:
At what point do you think it would be important to name a starter? I am sure that even you agree that at some point stretching out a QB competition into preseason would be detrimental to the team. So what is the point that we start seeing diminishing returns? For Frazier, I think that point was after OTAs, since he didn't make his statement until after they were done. I tend to agree. I think it is extremely important to go into training camp with an installed starter so they can get as much time under center with the first team as possible.

What personnel or scheme decisions has Frazier made for the Vikes that improved things?

None you say?

That's why I have zero faith in any of his decisions.

The best time to name a starter is one week before week 1... just for the sake of this discussion.

Caine
06-27-2012, 09:27 PM
Let's not confuse my not liking this decision as me being a Ponder "Hater"....I had enough of that BS with Jackson.

I do NOT believe that Christian Ponder has EARNED the starting role.....period.

I do not care that he had a shortened pre-season, that is COMPLETELY irrelevant. He didn't take the field in week 1 either....he watched McNabb.

I do not care taht he is the heir-apparant....he must still EARN the job.

I do not believe Joe Webb is the answer either...but I'm willing to play him over Ponder if Ponder needs more development.

Fact is, anointing Ponder the starter means that Ponder has to show he DESERVES it....and last year he failed to do so. It doesn't matter WHY....it simply matters that he didn't. Is Ponder ready now to go on all cylinders? If not, then making his the undisputed king of the field is a moron mistake that Chiller made with Jackson.

I hope Ponder succeeds. I hope he lights the league up for the next 15 years as a Viking. I hope he three-petes the Superbowl for us.


...But he's not even close to that yet. And I have ZERO faith in our Coaching staff to develop him on the field properly...especially with no weapons and a moron calling plays.

Caine

singersp
06-28-2012, 05:33 AM
Yes, he played mediocre. No arguing that from me. He needs to play significantly better this year in order to keep the starting spot IMHO.

But keep in mind that we also drafted him where we did because the front office and coaching staff believed that he had the potential to be a starter in the NFL.

Ask yourself honestly - who do you think has a better chance to be a top ten starter in the NFL, Ponder or Webb? Webb has exceeded expectations while Ponder underperformed last year... and yet they still played about the same. Webb would have had to play better than Ponder to warrant a competition, and he did not.

Also, the idea that there is NO competition is absurd. Obviously if Ponder stinks it up in training camp while Webb performs, there will be a switch. And you can say that about every position. By naming Ponder the starter now, Frazier is giving the offense some stability. People were all up in arms when Harvin was hinting at a trade, and most believe that a big part of that is the way the offense is being run. Don't you think that making the QB an unknown would exaggerate that?

I think naming Ponder the starter is the right move. I also don't think that Webb will ever be more than a backup, but I am willing to concede that we haven't seen enough of his play to be sure of that.

Personally, I don't think either one has a chance of being a top 10 in the next 2 years & I don't see one having a significant better chance than the other. Thus the need for an open competition. This is two young men we are talking about, either of which could be here long term and not some young player vs. a vet on his way out or some aged perennial backup. If Webb wasn't in the picture & it was just Ponder & Sage as veterans in camp, I wouldn't have a problem with him naming Ponder the starter.

For Frasier to name Ponder the starter now was way premature, especially since they haven't been to camp yet. The idea that there is NO competition is NOT absurd. Have you not been reading what Frasier has been saying? Barring an injury, he has named Ponder the starter & we will see Ponder start this season & Frasier ride him even if he is out performed in camp/preseason by Webb.

Some people feel that naming Ponder the starter now shows him that the coaches have faith in him & it relieves the pressure/stress of him having to look over his shoulder at the competition behind him, but they fail to see the message it sends to Webb.

"Sorry Joe, you have no fucking shot at starting this season, even if you do better than Christian in camp. I've made up my mind & I'm sticking to it. You're a back up this year & nothing more unless he gets injured. Get used to it now."

It's also funny though, that some here are claiming that Ponder hasn't had enough time to prove himself with only 10 starts, but they have no problem labeling Webb as nothing more than a viable back up after 3 starts. Funny!

At least you conceded you haven't seen enough of his play to be sure of it, but you still believe it even though you've seen him play a lot less than you've seen Ponder play.

NodakPaul
06-28-2012, 08:02 AM
Personally, I don't think either one has a chance of being a top 10 in the next 2 years & I don't see one having a significant better chance than the other. Thus the need for an open competition. This is two young men we are talking about, either of which could be here long term and not some young player vs. a vet on his way out or some aged perennial backup. If Webb wasn't in the picture & it was just Ponder & Sage as veterans in camp, I wouldn't have a problem with him naming Ponder the starter.

For Frasier to name Ponder the starter now was way premature, especially since they haven't been to camp yet. The idea that there is NO competition is NOT absurd. Have you not been reading what Frasier has been saying?Barring an injury, he has named Ponder the starter & we will see Ponder start this season & Frasier ride him even if he is out performed in camp/preseason by Webb.

Some people feel that naming Ponder the starter now shows him that the coaches have faith in him & it relieves the pressure/stress of him having to look over his shoulder at the competition behind him, but they fail to see the message it sends to Webb.

[B}"Sorry Joe, you have no fucking shot at starting this season, even if you do better than Christian in camp. I've made up my mind & I'm sticking to it. You're a back up this year & nothing more unless he gets injured. Get used to it now."[/B}

It's also funny though, that some here are claiming that Ponder hasn't had enough time to prove himself with only 10 starts, but they have no problem labeling Webb as nothing more than a viable back up after 3 starts. Funny!

At least you conceded you haven't seen enough of his play to be sure of it, but you still believe it even though you've seen him play a lot less than you've seen Ponder play.

I think you know better than those bolded statements. McNabb was named the starter last year too - I seem to remember him being benched 1/3 of the way through the season without injury.

If Webb comes into training camp and excels at the same time that Ponder struggles, Ponder's leash will get very short. Granted, he will probably still start week 1 regardless, but I don't think we would make it very many games before a switch is made in that case.

You are right - these are two young guys that we are talking about. Which makes the offseason that much more important. Not just for the QB, but for the whole offense. They have to work to get on the same page as the starting QB. You can't do that when you don't know who the starting QB will be. Especially when the two candidates are vastly different in technique.

I am pretty sure that the coaches are aware of the message that naming Ponder the starter sends to Webb. If a bunch of rubes in an online chat forum can see it, then there is a pretty damn good chance they realize it too.

NodakPaul
06-28-2012, 08:10 AM
Let's not confuse my not liking this decision as me being a Ponder "Hater"....I had enough of that BS with Jackson.

I do NOT believe that Christian Ponder has EARNED the starting role.....period.

I do not care that he had a shortened pre-season, that is COMPLETELY irrelevant. He didn't take the field in week 1 either....he watched McNabb.

I do not care taht he is the heir-apparant....he must still EARN the job.

I do not believe Joe Webb is the answer either...but I'm willing to play him over Ponder if Ponder needs more development.

Fact is, anointing Ponder the starter means that Ponder has to show he DESERVES it....and last year he failed to do so. It doesn't matter WHY....it simply matters that he didn't. Is Ponder ready now to go on all cylinders? If not, then making his the undisputed king of the field is a moron mistake that Chiller made with Jackson.

I hope Ponder succeeds. I hope he lights the league up for the next 15 years as a Viking. I hope he three-petes the Superbowl for us.


...But he's not even close to that yet. And I have ZERO faith in our Coaching staff to develop him on the field properly...especially with no weapons and a moron calling plays.

Caine

The shortened offseason is not completely irrelevant. Coming in as starter 1/3 way into the season is a helluva lot different that being installed as the starter in training camp. Pretending otherwise is closing your eyes. It does NOT excuse Ponder's play last year... but it DOES put more important on the offseason this year.

If we had another QB on the roster who has done anything I would be OK with a competition. But none of the QBs on our roster - including Ponder - have done anything. So it comes down to potential, and the front office and coaching staff see more potential in Ponder. And installing him as starter now gives him the best chance to succeed.

I am glad that the Vikings are going all in on Ponder now. It is better than hee-hawing around for 3 years while we play the is he/isn't he game. THAT is the moron mistake that Childress made with Jackson. (That, and then refusing to admit when the experiment failed).

C Mac D
06-28-2012, 08:15 AM
I've missed the QB arguments, thanks Nodak.

Marrdro
06-28-2012, 09:39 AM
Webb on the otherhand had a better winning %, lower INT%, is more athletic and had a better QB rating.
Did Webb lead the league in red zone proficiency? Ponder did.

Look, Webb can run, but he sure can't throw and like we've seen with guys like Vick (until thye started forcing him to stay in the pocket) or Tebow, QB's can win by running but they are never going to be a valid option as a starting QB.

In the end, Ponder made mistakes last year. Anyone who thought he wouldn't is fooling themselves or just doesn't understand the process to develop a QB either from the bench or on the field. Hell, even if he does progress this year (which I think he will) he will still be making mistakes by the end of the year. All of them do.

Like it or not, you'll probably not know what you have in a QB until his 5th or 6th year. Eli Manning is a good example. So is Matt Ryan.

jmcdon00
06-28-2012, 10:21 AM
I have no problem with the team naming a starting QB. Things can always change.
Ponder was ahead of Webb on the depth chart a year ago.
Seems like a pretty obvious decision to me.

Marrdro
06-28-2012, 10:26 AM
I have no problem with the team naming a starting QB. Things can always change.
Ponder was ahead of Webb on the depth chart a year ago.
Seems like a pretty obvious decision to me.
LOL, obvious to me as well my friend. Not sure why it isn't to everyone.

tastywaves
06-28-2012, 12:17 PM
Let's not confuse my not liking this decision as me being a Ponder "Hater"....I had enough of that BS with Jackson.

I do NOT believe that Christian Ponder has EARNED the starting role.....period.

I do not care that he had a shortened pre-season, that is COMPLETELY irrelevant. He didn't take the field in week 1 either....he watched McNabb.

I do not care taht he is the heir-apparant....he must still EARN the job.

I do not believe Joe Webb is the answer either...but I'm willing to play him over Ponder if Ponder needs more development.

Fact is, anointing Ponder the starter means that Ponder has to show he DESERVES it....and last year he failed to do so. It doesn't matter WHY....it simply matters that he didn't. Is Ponder ready now to go on all cylinders? If not, then making his the undisputed king of the field is a moron mistake that Chiller made with Jackson.

I hope Ponder succeeds. I hope he lights the league up for the next 15 years as a Viking. I hope he three-petes the Superbowl for us.


...But he's not even close to that yet. And I have ZERO faith in our Coaching staff to develop him on the field properly...especially with no weapons and a moron calling plays.

Caine

If that is true, then most likely nobody will every play to the level that they DESERVE to be the starter. But there needs to be a starter, there needs to be a primary offense and the coaches need to focus on whatever Musgrove and Frazier want to implement as an offense. I doubt the playbook used with Webb would be inline with the direction they want to move this offense, whereas Ponder appears to be better suited.

Ponder may never develop, the coaches may never develop and we very well may continue to squander. But unfortunately, that's what it is at the moment and some decisions have to be made. One of them to install an offensive scheme that they try to develop all these young players around. That includes a QB that they feel gives them the best chance to accomplish this goal.

Webb can come in at any time and in any situation and do what he does. Throw away the playbook, draw the plays in the sand and ad lib.

jargomcfargo
06-28-2012, 01:17 PM
Did Webb lead the league in red zone proficiency? Ponder did.


I love this quote. Problem is, you have to get to the red zone in order for this stat to have any significant relevance.

Ponder in 2011 -- 6.3 yards per attempt (YPA), ranked 30th in the league, 8.4 vertical YPA ranked 33rd and his 7.1 stretch vertical YPA on throws 20 or more yards from the line of scrimmage ranked dead last.
These stats came from an article that blamed Aromashadu instead of Ponder and I don't doubt that played a significant role.
With the addition of Simpson we should hopefully get a better indication of what Ponder can and cannot do.
I don't worry about the QB competition or lack there of. If Ponder has what it takes then we will be set.
If not, or if Ponder gets hurt, Webb will have his chance.

C Mac D
06-28-2012, 01:24 PM
Did Webb lead the league in red zone proficiency? Ponder did.

Look, Webb can run, but he sure can't throw and like we've seen with guys like Vick (until thye started forcing him to stay in the pocket) or Tebow, QB's can win by running but they are never going to be a valid option as a starting QB.

In the end, Ponder made mistakes last year. Anyone who thought he wouldn't is fooling themselves or just doesn't understand the process to develop a QB either from the bench or on the field. Hell, even if he does progress this year (which I think he will) he will still be making mistakes by the end of the year. All of them do.

Like it or not, you'll probably not know what you have in a QB until his 5th or 6th year. Eli Manning is a good example. So is Matt Ryan.

I'm essentially done with this discussion, really only partook because of nostalgia.

But to say Ponder can throw and Webb can't... they both had a 54% completion percentage last year - which is lower than Jackson's ever was (or still is).

Oh, and here's an article (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/fo-espn-feature-columns/2011/espn-red-zone-efficiency-myth) debunking the "redzone efficiency" myth.

Also, Matt Ryan won 11 games his rookie season and had an 88 QB rating. It didn't take him 5-6 years to develop.

jargomcfargo
06-28-2012, 01:37 PM
Done? Your just getting warmed up!
I have a feeling this thread could go on for a long time.

tastywaves
06-28-2012, 01:53 PM
Done? Your just getting warmed up!
I have a feeling this thread could go on for a long time.

Count on it.

I hardly doubt CMac is anywhere close to done on this topic. I think I can even smell a chart coming on giving graphical proof how much superior Webb is than Ponder.

As long as we have shitty QB play, threads like this one will have a lot of legs.

tastywaves
06-28-2012, 02:45 PM
I'm essentially done with this discussion, really only partook because of nostalgia.

But to say Ponder can throw and Webb can't... they both had a 54% completion percentage last year - which is lower than Jackson's ever was (or still is).

Oh, and here's an article (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/fo-espn-feature-columns/2011/espn-red-zone-efficiency-myth) debunking the "redzone efficiency" myth.

Also, Matt Ryan won 11 games his rookie season and had an 88 QB rating. It didn't take him 5-6 years to develop.

Eli Manning didn't break the 54% completion percentage until his 3rd year in the league. In his second year he helped lead the Giants to an 11-5 record with a 52.8% completion.

Needing 5-6 years to figure out if a QB is going to work out is a bit of a stretch...no team can afford that level of investment, unless your counting on leaving him on the bench for 3 years. Although I would guess that years 5-6 are probably the prime years of a QB's career. 2-3 years is more in line with what I think you need to judge the viability of a QB. That is providing he is getting significant playing time in those years.

C Mac D
06-28-2012, 02:56 PM
Eli Manning didn't break the 54% completion percentage until his 3rd year in the league. In his second year he helped lead the Giants to an 11-5 record with a 52.8% completion.

Needing 5-6 years to figure out if a QB is going to work out is a bit of a stretch...no team can afford that level of investment, unless your counting on leaving him on the bench for 3 years. Although I would guess that years 5-6 are probably the prime years of a QB's career. 2-3 years is more in line with what I think you need to judge the viability of a QB. That is providing he is getting significant playing time in those years.

The league has changed a lot since 2005... no longer can a good RB take you to an 11-5 record.

And if you think Ponder will be as good as either Manning, I envy your optimism.

C Mac D
06-28-2012, 02:58 PM
Count on it.

I hardly doubt CMac is anywhere close to done on this topic. I think I can even smell a chart coming on giving graphical proof how much superior Webb is than Ponder.

As long as we have shitty QB play, threads like this one will have a lot of legs.

Haha, I loved that chart.

I really don't have a horse in this race, just know a good QB conversation always gets traffic flowing on PPO... plus it gave me a great opportunity to ruffle Nodak's feathers.

tastywaves
06-28-2012, 03:49 PM
The league has changed a lot since 2005... no longer can a good RB take you to an 11-5 record.

And if you think Ponder will be as good as either Manning, I envy your optimism.

Just pointing out how a single stat can be misleading and very rarely helps in trying to get a point across.

singersp
06-29-2012, 07:17 AM
Just pointing out how a single stat can be misleading and very rarely helps in trying to get a point across.

Looks like you're trying to say AD took us to the NFCCG, not Favre & out WR's.

NodakPaul
06-29-2012, 09:18 AM
Haha, I loved that chart.

I really don't have a horse in this race, just know a good QB conversation always gets traffic flowing on PPO... plus it gave me a great opportunity to ruffle Nodak's feathers.

Good luck. My feathers are unruffleable these days. (I'm pretty sure that's a word...) :)

There were QB debates on PP.O when I first joined in 2005. I am pretty sure they won't ever go away.

tastywaves
06-29-2012, 09:56 AM
Looks like you're trying to say AD took us to the NFCCG, not Favre & out WR's.

I'm trying, but I don't have a clue what you're trying to say. Please connect the dots for me.

C Mac D
06-29-2012, 11:28 AM
There were QB debates on PP.O when I first joined in 2005. I am pretty sure they won't ever go away.

Says a lot about our team. Sucks that our main rival goes from one HOF'er to the next.

PurplePowerPunch
06-30-2012, 08:30 AM
Ponder should be better with a full off-season to train. He has to improve his arm strenth tho. He won alot of games in college. Hopefully he can lead our Vikings to alot of wins too!:clap:

singersp
06-30-2012, 10:59 AM
I'm trying, but I don't have a clue what you're trying to say. Please connect the dots for me.

If I have to connect the dots for you, then there's no point in furthering the discussion. So let me just rephrase it.

What do you think is more likely to help a team the most in achieving a 11-5 record. A strong passing game or a strong running game?

singersp
06-30-2012, 11:05 AM
Ponder should be better with a full off-season to train.

People keep saying this. They act as if he didn't have 22 weeks worth of training last year.

PurplePowerPunch
06-30-2012, 12:30 PM
People keep saying this. They act as if he didn't have 22 weeks worth of training last year.

Singersp all I'm saying is having no off-season last year is Ponder's saving grace. This year he has no excuses for poor play. Let's hope for the best. SKOL VIKINGS!!!

vikinggreg
06-30-2012, 07:59 PM
People keep saying this. They act as if he didn't have 22 weeks worth of training last year.

Maybe you could go back and revisit your posts when Jackson missed the 3rd and 4th preseason games and how much that affected him or how different that would be for a rookie not getting any ota mini camp time due to a lockout, I'd be quite interest on your take on both accounts.

MaxVike
06-30-2012, 08:58 PM
Maybe you could go back and revisit your posts when Jackson missed the 3rd and 4th preseason games and how much that affected him or how different that would be for a rookie not getting any ota mini camp time due to a lockout, I'd be quite interest on your take on both accounts.

Thank you.....I'm watching.

mountainviking
07-01-2012, 10:05 AM
Cosell Talks: Pondering Ponder and Dalton : NFL Films Blog (http://nflfilms.nfl.com/2012/06/29/cosell-talks-pondering-ponder-and-dalton/?module=HP11_cp#more-9564)


Unlike Dalton, who was installed as the Bengals’ starter in training camp, Ponder began 2011 as a backup — to Donovan McNabb. That’s important to remember. He did not get first-team reps all through camp and the first six weeks of the season. He wasn’t named the starter until mid-October, before the Week 7 home game against the Green Bay Packers. No offseason due to the lockout, limited reps … and then your first start comes against the defending Super Bowl champions, who were undefeated at the time.

It was an impressive beginning. Ponder threw with velocity, especially when his feet were set. He showcased excellent ability to throw on the run, with designed movement a featured part of the offense. He also displayed the kind of confidence you love to see in a young passer, attacking Charles Woodson in man coverage a number of times. He won some, he lost some. He was firm in the pocket, willing to deliver in the face of pressure.

As the season progressed, Ponder exhibited other attributes that bode well for 2012 and beyond. In particular, pocket movement. There were a number of throws in which Ponder showed the essential ability to move within the pocket to avoid the pass rush, maintain downfield focus and then deliver with accuracy. He also provided the added dimension of getting outside the pocket in response to pressure and using his speed to generate explosive gains.

Ponder must improve as a progression reader. Last season, he had a tendency to pre-determine throws — a common problem for young, inexperienced quarterbacks


There's physical talent there. He seems to have the work ethic to get better, and we definitely improved the talent that he has to work with. I just don't get why so many don't want to give the kid a chance...?

singersp
07-01-2012, 12:19 PM
Maybe you could go back and revisit your posts when Jackson missed the 3rd and 4th preseason games and how much that affected him or how different that would be for a rookie not getting any ota mini camp time due to a lockout, I'd be quite interest on your take on both accounts.

Maybe you should revisit them & quote a few of them. You are referring to the 2008 season when Jackson missed the 3rd & 4th preseason games due to injury & then we lost the first two games of the season.

Yes, I stated that because Jackson hadn't played for 3 weeks due to injury, Rice hadn't played for 3 weeks due to injury, Berrian hadn't played for 4 weeks due to injury, Shiancoe hadn't played for 2 weeks & Childress didn't prepare the Vikings the Vikings for the upcoming game, resting several of the starters, that it played an impact on the Vikings losing those first two games.

How does that even compare to Ponder's situation? There's a big difference there. It's apples & oranges. People are making excuses for Ponder not performing well in week 17 of the NFL season after he started the previous 9 weeks & played the previous 10 weeks and attributing it in part because he missed a few OTA's & a shortened TC. I'm not buying it.

For the fist part of the season sure, it would have some impact, but not so late in the year.

You were also calling for Jackson's head after those two losses in 2008, which were his 13th & 14th starts, 8 of which we won.

Ponder has started 10 games, 2 of which we won & you can thank Webb for one of them.

So if we lose games early, I'd expect for you to be calling for Ponder's head too, but I don't think you will be.

Maybe you could go back and revisit your posts about Jackson after his 10th start and what you said or even his 5th. I'll go out on a limb and say you weren't defending him.

Then compare them to what you were saying about Ponder after equal starts & why you think they are night & day. I'd be quite interested on your take.

singersp
07-01-2012, 12:22 PM
Thank you.....I'm watching.

I'd be interested on your take to as to how missing a few OTA's greatly affected Ponder's performance late in the season,

I'll be watching.

vikinggreg
07-01-2012, 01:28 PM
Maybe you should revisit them & quote a few of them. You are referring to the 2008 season when Jackson missed the 3rd & 4th preseason games due to injury & then we lost the first two games of the season.

Yes, I stated that because Jackson hadn't played for 3 weeks due to injury, Rice hadn't played for 3 weeks due to injury, Berrian hadn't played for 4 weeks due to injury, Shiancoe hadn't played for 2 weeks & Childress didn't prepare the Vikings the Vikings for the upcoming game, resting several of the starters, that it played an impact on the Vikings losing those first two games.

How does that even compare to Ponder's situation? There's a big difference there. It's apples & oranges. People are making excuses for Ponder not performing well in week 17 of the NFL season after he started the previous 9 weeks & played the previous 10 weeks and attributing it in part because he missed a few OTA's & a shortened TC. I'm not buying it.

For the fist part of the season sure, it would have some impact, but not so late in the year.

You were also calling for Jackson's head after those two losses in 2008, which were his 13th & 14th starts, 8 of which we won.

Ponder has started 10 games, 2 of which we won & you can thank Webb for one of them.

So if we lose games early, I'd expect for you to be calling for Ponder's head too, but I don't think you will be.

Maybe you could go back and revisit your posts about Jackson after his 10th start and what you said or even his 5th. I'll go out on a limb and say you weren't defending him.

Then compare them to what you were saying about Ponder after equal starts & why you think they are night & day. I'd be quite interested on your take.

Actually I never called for Jackson's head at all after those 2 games that season and I also didn't make excuses for him

I'll go to his 12th start a game against Denver which was a loss for the Vikings and the end of the 2007 season I thought he looked like a leader during that game and was looking forward to the next season....you might want to check that out

NodakPaul
07-01-2012, 05:02 PM
I'd be interested on your take to as to how missing a few OTA's greatly affected Ponder's performance late in the season,

I'll be watching.

Other than the fact that it wasn't just a few OTAs, it was nearly the entire offseason leading into training camp when the offense is normally installed... regardless, I don't use the missed offseason as an excuse for Ponder's play last year.

However, I do believe that BECAUSE he missed the offseason last year it makes this offseason that much more important for him. Splitting the first team reps with another QB after getting NONE of the first team reps the previous year is not a good way to install a new QB - it doesn't matter if it is Webb or Ponder. Whoever our starting QB is going to be this year needs and deserves to have the entire training camp to learn the offense and get their timing down with the other offensive starters.

If Webb had been named starter over Ponder I would take the same view (although I admit that I would feel that the coaching staff made a mistake). Not naming a starter until well into preseason would be a bigger mistake IMHO.

singersp
07-02-2012, 05:53 AM
Other than the fact that it wasn't just a few OTAs, it was nearly the entire offseason leading into training camp when the offense is normally installed... regardless, I don't use the missed offseason as an excuse for Ponder's play last year.

However, I do believe that BECAUSE he missed the offseason last year it makes this offseason that much more important for him. Splitting the first team reps with another QB after getting NONE of the first team reps the previous year is not a good way to install a new QB - it doesn't matter if it is Webb or Ponder. Whoever our starting QB is going to be this year needs and deserves to have the entire training camp to learn the offense and get their timing down with the other offensive starters.

If Webb had been named starter over Ponder I would take the same view (although I admit that I would feel that the coaching staff made a mistake). Not naming a starter until well into preseason would be a bigger mistake IMHO.

How can you be sure he had absolutely no time at all with the first team starters last year? Do you have proof to back that statement?

Also, OTA's & TC are not the only time they practice & have time to learn the offense & get in sync. They practice during the week between games all preseason & season long.

NodakPaul
07-02-2012, 07:12 AM
How can you be sure he had absolutely no time at all with the first team starters last year? Do you have proof to back that statement?

Also, OTA's & TC are not the only time they practice & have time to learn the offense & get in sync. They practice during the week between games all preseason & season long.

Proof that he didn't get any snaps with the first team during the offseason? You mean besides common sense or general knowledge of the game? That is easy. Go back to any of the blogs from last year and you can see that McNabb - who was also new to the offense - got all of the first team snaps during the abbreviated offseason. Here is one of many:

Webb and Ponder rotated taking second-team reps behind McNabb.

In fact, if you remember correctly, Webb took first team snaps while McNabb got initially up to speed.

So who is running the Vikings’ first-team offense while Donovan McNabb waits and Christian Ponder learns? Why, of course, it is Joe Webb -- the quarterback who is neither the present nor future of the position.
...
The answer, I think, is two-fold. First, coach Leslie Frazier has already demonstrated an old-school approach to making personnel decisions. Webb finished last season as the Vikings’ starter, so therefore, he should get the first snaps of training camp when the other options are Ponder, a rookie, and Rhett Bomar, a late-season addition in 2010.

Second, the Vikings wanted to give Webb a solid footing at the quarterback position before spinning him off elsewhere. If McNabb is injured early this season, it’s possible Webb would get the call to replace him ahead of Ponder. And as a quarterback, Webb is implicitly learning the roles of each receiver and running back as well.

And then there is Greg Cosell from NFL Films...

Unlike Dalton, who was installed as the Bengals' starter in training camp, Ponder began 2011 as a backup - to Donovan McNabb. That's important to remember. He did not get first-team reps all through camp and the first six weeks of the season. He wasn't named the starter until mid-October, before the Week 7 home game against the Green Bay Packers. No offseason due to the lockout, limited reps ... and then your first start comes against the defending Super Bowl champions, who were undefeated at the time.

And I am sure that somewhere in there he took a few snaps behind the first team, but that is not the same as practicing with them and getting your timings down with them. Regardless, like I said in my previous post... I don't excuse Ponder for his performance because of the limited offseason. I do however recognize the important of a full offseason this year, and think that allowing the starting QB to get as much time as possible to install the offense is the right thing to do.

mountainviking
07-02-2012, 10:13 AM
A rookie needs all the time he can get to learn the offense AND time on field with the starters to get timing and rhythm together. Ponder didn't have an offseason, no OTAs, etc in year one, so he was about 10 weeks behind when he took the reigns...as was the rest of our team who were all learning a new offense. Sure, he got 10 weeks of practice in during the season, but it was a lil late. AND, we all know how poor our pass blocking and route running was last year. This year they've upgraded talent at the trouble positions and have had over a year to get used to the scheme, language etc...

"All we are saying, Is Give P A Chance!" ;)

C Mac D
07-02-2012, 10:34 AM
It's funny that the one's who accused people of making excuses for Jackson are the very people making excuses for Ponder.

Let's just face the fact that Ponder will never be a great QB in the league and move on.

Caine
07-02-2012, 12:02 PM
Maybe you should revisit them & quote a few of them. You are referring to the 2008 season when Jackson missed the 3rd & 4th preseason games due to injury & then we lost the first two games of the season.

Yes, I stated that because Jackson hadn't played for 3 weeks due to injury, Rice hadn't played for 3 weeks due to injury, Berrian hadn't played for 4 weeks due to injury, Shiancoe hadn't played for 2 weeks & Childress didn't prepare the Vikings the Vikings for the upcoming game, resting several of the starters, that it played an impact on the Vikings losing those first two games.

How does that even compare to Ponder's situation? There's a big difference there. It's apples & oranges. People are making excuses for Ponder not performing well in week 17 of the NFL season after he started the previous 9 weeks & played the previous 10 weeks and attributing it in part because he missed a few OTA's & a shortened TC. I'm not buying it.

For the fist part of the season sure, it would have some impact, but not so late in the year.

You were also calling for Jackson's head after those two losses in 2008, which were his 13th & 14th starts, 8 of which we won.

Ponder has started 10 games, 2 of which we won & you can thank Webb for one of them.

So if we lose games early, I'd expect for you to be calling for Ponder's head too, but I don't think you will be.

Maybe you could go back and revisit your posts about Jackson after his 10th start and what you said or even his 5th. I'll go out on a limb and say you weren't defending him.

Then compare them to what you were saying about Ponder after equal starts & why you think they are night & day. I'd be quite interested on your take.

Nice post, I agree.

I was one who was calling for Jackson's head after the 1st 2 games of 08...his 13th and 14th starts. He was horrible, and that - added to the impression I had that he was not a significant contributor to our wins when he was in (A position I still hold) - convinced me he wasn't our guy.

Ponder has had now started 10 games....he got a BYE for poor performance last season because he was a rookie and the pre-season was abbreviated....he has ZERO excuses this season.

Sure, we have no receivers - we didn't have much when Jackson was here either.

Sure, our O-line sucks...did for Jackson too.

Bottom line is that Ponder has to produce. If he can't, we move on. If he can, hooray, we're in business.

Singer is right, however, in that all the excuses people make for Ponder is a bit ridiculous...especially the shortened pre-season one. Ponder wasn't supposed to start for us right away...McNabb was. Ponder got put in in game 6.

The question is, did Ponder get BETTER as the season progressed? THIS is the indicator we need to look at. From where I sit, he really didn't. If he doesn't come out MUCH stronger than he was last season, then there's little point continuing with the Ponder Project.

Or the Musgrave Experiment...

Or the Frazier Fiasco...

Or the Wilf Blunder.

Caine

tastywaves
07-02-2012, 12:54 PM
It's funny that the one's who accused people of making excuses for Jackson are the very people making excuses for Ponder.

Let's just face the fact that Ponder will never be a great QB in the league and move on.

That is really what this thread is all about right....TJack. Just can't get over how fans bailed out on that guy, so now they will seek their revenge by pointing out their perceived hypocrisy every chance they can. Different guy, different situation and has no relevance.

CMac has made it clear that he has no faith in Ponder's chances of being a good QB. Duly noted and much easier to discuss this topic with him. If history is on our side than Ponder just might have a chance :)

I do think he has a chance and will keep my mind open (as I did with TJ) until proven otherwise (which I was). With our current cast of QB's, I don't think there is any other decision to make. And no, Ponder's 54% completion rate (or any other stat that is brought up) of last year hasn't convinced me that he will never make it.

C Mac D
07-02-2012, 01:01 PM
That is really what this thread is all about right....TJack. Just can't get over how fans bailed out on that guy, so now they will seek their revenge by pointing out their perceived hypocrisy every chance they can. Different guy, different situation and has no relevance.

CMac has made it clear that he has no faith in Ponder's chances of being a good QB. Duly noted and much easier to discuss this topic with him. If history is on our side than Ponder just might have a chance :)

I do think he has a chance and will keep my mind open (as I did with TJ) until proven otherwise (which I was). With our current cast of QB's, I don't think there is any other decision to make. And no, Ponder's 54% completion rate (or any other stat that is brought up) of last year hasn't convinced me that he will never make it.

Well, here's my thinking: When has Ponder ever been a championship-caliber QB? EVER?! In High School? No. College? No.

Call me cynical, but I just don't see him coming into the NFL and suddenly becoming a super star. The Vikes overdrafted him and now everyone's trying to make him out to be something he's not...

He should have been a 4th-5th round QB (honestly... probably 6th-7th rounder) - and will be a perennial backup.

Those are my thoughts on this issue.

tastywaves
07-02-2012, 01:23 PM
Well, here's my thinking: When has Ponder ever been a championship-caliber QB? EVER?! In High School? No. College? No.

Call me cynical, but I just don't see him coming into the NFL and suddenly becoming a super star. The Vikes overdrafted him and now everyone's trying to make him out to be something he's not...

He should have been a 4th-5th round QB - and will be a perennial backup.

Those are my thoughts on this issue.

You could very well be right, I think many others agree with you. I don't know about the 4-5 round stab, but #12 overall was considered a reach by the so-called experts.

He needs to grow a lot to be a valid starter, but there were a number of qualities from last year that I liked about him. His competitiveness for one, without that you can have all the talent in the world and never amount to anything. He is a tough, athletic, intelligent kid, that seems to thrive the spotlight. His arm is not elite, but it's good enough. Many HOF'ers got by with less.

Whether he can figure out how to read defenses fast enough (remember we've all given him one more year at the most), grow chemistry with his receivers, learn how to flow in the pocket, and commit to his decisions remain to be seen. I do think that the talent around him has been upgraded, even if slightly and he does have another year under him. So I do expect progress, and if not, then off to the next guy.

Florida State wasn't a bad stepping stone to the NFL and he had pretty good success there. If your looking for a guy who had a lot of success at HS and College, we could probably wrestle Vince Young away from Buffalo.

MaxVike
07-02-2012, 01:43 PM
I'd be interested on your take to as to how missing a few OTA's greatly affected Ponder's performance late in the season,

I'll be watching.

It's simple, really. #1 - He wasn't ready to start, which, was acknowledged by the failed McScrubb signing. #2 - He didn't just miss a couple of OTAs, he also didn't get 1st Team Reps (see #1) during Training Camp, or the Preaseason. #3 - once again, probably in the 80-90% range now, we disagree.

But, my thoughts are better summarized by someone much more qualified than me. Cosell Talks: Pondering Ponder and Dalton : NFL Films Blog (http://nflfilms.nfl.com/2012/06/29/cosell-talks-pondering-ponder-and-dalton/#more-9564)

I'm not sure Ponder will ever be great, not saying that. I do think, however, that he can be a competent starter, a winner, and a leader. But, acknowledge that I could be wrong...that said, this year will be a better gauge than last year, due to the lockout, and the failed McScrub experiment.

As a footnote, Cosell's NFL credentials are perhaps a bit more impressive than either yours or mine...maybe: "Greg Cosell is an NFL analyst and a senior producer at NFL Films. He is the nephew of iconic broadcaster Howard Cosell. Cosell is widely regarded by NFL insiders as one of the most knowledgeable and trusted football analysts.

Born in Queens, New York, Cosell attended Amherst College where he played basketball. After applying for a job at NFL Films, he was interviewed by founder Ed Sabol at the company's New Jersey headquarters, and subsequently hired as a producer.

In 1984 Cosell with NFL Films President Steve Sabol created a show titled Monday Night Matchup (now known as NFL Matchup) which was initially hosted by Chris Berman. The show has grown to one of the most respected sports television programs in the industry and is currently hosted by Sal Paolantonio, Ron Jaworski and Merril Hoge.

Cosell co-authored the book The Games That Changed the Game: The Evolution of the NFL in Seven Sundays."

NodakPaul
07-02-2012, 02:12 PM
Well, here's my thinking: When has Ponder ever been a championship-caliber QB? EVER?! In High School? No. College? No.

Call me cynical, but I just don't see him coming into the NFL and suddenly becoming a super star. The Vikes overdrafted him and now everyone's trying to make him out to be something he's not...

He should have been a 4th-5th round QB (honestly... probably 6th-7th rounder) - and will be a perennial backup.

Those are my thoughts on this issue.

LMAO.

6th or 7th rounder? You know - there was I time when I would have thought that you were serious... :D

C Mac D
07-02-2012, 02:42 PM
LMAO.

6th or 7th rounder? You know - there was I time when I would have thought that you were serious... :D

You can say what you want, but that's what round his talent level should have been drafted at. First round talent should be able to come in year 1 and be a viable starter. Ponder was clearly not at that level.

There was a time when people thought Jimmy Clausen was a first round talent too... but he probably should have been drafted in the 6th-7th also.

tastywaves
07-02-2012, 03:23 PM
You can say what you want, but that's what round his talent level should have been drafted at. First round talent should be able to come in year 1 and be a viable starter. Ponder was clearly not at that level.

There was a time when people thought Jimmy Clausen was a first round talent too... but he probably should have been drafted in the 6th-7th also.

I don't think that is how NFL teams look at it. Many teams that draft QB's in the first round install them as starters in year 1, mostly because of their situation. However, I don't think they are necessarily looking at them as "viable starters in year 1". I think they mostly believe in their potential and want to accelerate the process as much as possible.

Success in year 1 shouldn't determine whether they should have been first round picks. History has shown that year 1 success does not necessarily equate to long term success (or the opposite).

Caine
07-02-2012, 08:59 PM
It's simple, really. #1 - He wasn't ready to start, which, was acknowledged by the failed McScrubb signing. #2 - He didn't just miss a couple of OTAs, he also didn't get 1st Team Reps (see #1) during Training Camp, or the Preaseason. #3 - once again, probably in the 80-90% range now, we disagree.

But, my thoughts are better summarized by someone much more qualified than me. Cosell Talks: Pondering Ponder and Dalton : NFL Films Blog (http://nflfilms.nfl.com/2012/06/29/cosell-talks-pondering-ponder-and-dalton/#more-9564)

I'm not sure Ponder will ever be great, not saying that. I do think, however, that he can be a competent starter, a winner, and a leader. But, acknowledge that I could be wrong...that said, this year will be a better gauge than last year, due to the lockout, and the failed McScrub experiment.

As a footnote, Cosell's NFL credentials are perhaps a bit more impressive than either yours or mine...maybe: "Greg Cosell is an NFL analyst and a senior producer at NFL Films. He is the nephew of iconic broadcaster Howard Cosell. Cosell is widely regarded by NFL insiders as one of the most knowledgeable and trusted football analysts.

Born in Queens, New York, Cosell attended Amherst College where he played basketball. After applying for a job at NFL Films, he was interviewed by founder Ed Sabol at the company's New Jersey headquarters, and subsequently hired as a producer.

In 1984 Cosell with NFL Films President Steve Sabol created a show titled Monday Night Matchup (now known as NFL Matchup) which was initially hosted by Chris Berman. The show has grown to one of the most respected sports television programs in the industry and is currently hosted by Sal Paolantonio, Ron Jaworski and Merril Hoge.

Cosell co-authored the book The Games That Changed the Game: The Evolution of the NFL in Seven Sundays."

Interesting comparison. The read on Ponder isn't surprising. It's sort of middle-of-the-road...which flies in the face of our Viking fan Absolutism. Essentially it says what I said above, we'll see what he does this year.

Caine

Marrdro
07-03-2012, 07:20 AM
It's funny that the one's who accused people of making excuses for Jackson are the very people making excuses for Ponder.

Let's just face the fact that Ponder will never be a great QB in the league and move on.
But does he have to be great? Is Eli great or does he just have a damn nice team around him?

NodakPaul
07-03-2012, 08:12 AM
Here is an interesting quote from Craig Johnson, the Vikings QB coach, on the importance of this offseason for Ponder.

Vikings QB coach sees major progress from Christian Ponder (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/03/vikings-qb-coach-sees-major-progress-from-christian-ponder/)

“I think there’s no question, he’s come light years,” Johnson said of Ponder in an interview with 1500 ESPN. “Obviously getting a chance to work out a lot of the kinks, a lot of the problems that you find out as a young player, that’s when you get a chance to work on them is usually in the first offseason afterwards. Having been through this with a couple of other quarterbacks, I kind of know how it goes. They go back [and say], ‘I can’t believe I did this,’ or, ‘Oh my God, this is so clear now.’ You kind of have to put them through the paces for them to understand what’s good and bad about each play. I think he’s really done a good job with that. . . . He’s making the mistakes like other guys do, but as he’s going through them he learns how to work through them and he’s making many fewer mistakes because the game is starting to slow down. That’s what you look for.”

Caine
07-03-2012, 09:32 AM
But does he have to be great? Is Eli great or does he just have a damn nice team around him?

She-Lie is like Jim McMahon...right guy in the right system at the right time.

Problem Ponder has is he's in a horrible system with horrible coaches and a very bad team....not such a great combo.

Caine

C Mac D
07-03-2012, 12:49 PM
Here is an interesting quote from Craig Johnson, the Vikings QB coach, on the importance of this offseason for Ponder.

Vikings QB coach sees major progress from Christian Ponder (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/03/vikings-qb-coach-sees-major-progress-from-christian-ponder/)

Ah yes, the infallible Craig Johnson... who played how many years at the QB position? Oh right, none.

How many great QBs has he "coached"? Oh right, none.

What's that you say? Vince Young was his brightest protege? Haha... whatever.

How many championship teams has he "coached"? Oh right, none.

Craig Johnson falls right in line with the rest of our coaching staff - absolutely clueless

NodakPaul
07-03-2012, 02:41 PM
Ah yes, the infallible Craig Johnson... who played how many years at the QB position? Oh right, none.

How many great QBs has he "coached"? Oh right, none.

What's that you say? Vince Young was his brightest protege? Haha... whatever.

How many championship teams has he "coached"? Oh right, none.

Craig Johnson falls right in line with the rest of our coaching staff - absolutely clueless

How many great QBs have you coached?
How many proteges have you had?
How many championships teams have you coached?
:D

Why is it that the entire coaching staff is absolutely clueless while you seem to have a firm grasp on the abilities and capabilities of our players. And all this just from watching them from 1200 miles away. Impressive! :)

I bet if he came out and said something about Webb looking good you would take his word as gospel simply because he agreed with you...

So since you have such a low opinion of Craig Johnson, are you saying that you disagree with his statement about the importance of the first offseason after a QB moves into the starting role? It makes sense to me... but then again I might not have coached as many championship caliber QBs as you have.

vikinggreg
07-03-2012, 04:53 PM
.... Rice hadn't played for 3 weeks due to injury, Berrian hadn't played for 4 weeks due to injury, Shiancoe hadn't played for 2 weeks & Childress didn't prepare the Vikings the Vikings for the upcoming game, resting several of the starters, that it played an impact on the Vikings losing those first two games.

How does that even compare to Ponder's situation? There's a big difference there. It's apples & oranges. ....

So at the moment missing the first 2 games Jerome Simpson and Adrian Peterson's injury recovery are valid for this seasons start.....coaching inadequacies are still apples and apples but Spielman might bring in a tennis player to help the offense in some way or convert a trainer into a scout to help with the opponents tendencies so that would outweigh Childress's speeches water buffalo (http://www.vikingsgab.com/2010/04/23/childress-the-motivator/). Add in sitting guys like Harvin and Rudolph in the red zone or second half of the game....does that equal resting players?

marshallvike
07-03-2012, 08:03 PM
She-Lie is like Jim McMahon...right guy in the right system at the right time.

Problem Ponder has is he's in a horrible system with horrible coaches and a very bad team....not such a great combo.

Caine

Having lived thru the McMahon years here in Chicago and having to watch most of their games, I have to disagree with you on McMahon. He was a good QB who was smart enough to change the calls at the line of scrimmage with regularity. Ditka spent a lot of time screaming at him on the sidelines for it. The team was very good even without him, but he put the offense over the top. They had Payton before McMahon but didn't win big until he was there. When the D gave him a short field, he did not play ball control, he went for the throat. He would have had a longer career if it weren't for a Packer, (Chas Martin) body slamming him well after a ball was thrown.
Jim McMahon body slammed by Charles Martin Bears Packers 1986 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTLlaMY_9PM)

I HOPE you are wrong about the horrible system, horrible coaches, and bad team, but I can't say you are incorrect in that assumption. I haven't seen anything yet that would make me argue that point. Hopefully they have learned over the course of a year together.

kevoncox
07-04-2012, 12:03 AM
But does he have to be great? Is Eli great or does he just have a damn nice team around him?

Eli is great!
I have always liked the guy and i didn't understand his bum rap.
1) Stands in the pocket and delivers the ball even when getting hit (sometimes chucks and turns like Romo)
2) Big arm and great accuracy
3) Dependable, yas yet to miss a game
4) Plays in a tough division.
5) Has won championships with different receiving corps and OL.

Marrdro
07-05-2012, 07:05 AM
Eli is great!
I have always liked the guy and i didn't understand his bum rap.
1) Stands in the pocket and delivers the ball even when getting hit (sometimes chucks and turns like Romo)
2) Big arm and great accuracy
3) Dependable, yas yet to miss a game
4) Plays in a tough division.
5) Has won championships with different receiving corps and OL.
Good stuff. Still not sure he would be classified as great, but I do like him. Makes good judgements (for the most part) and doesn't hesitate to make a throw.

He does rely on his WR's to make big plays for him as some of those throws are sometimes off the mark. I think that has something to do with is ball flight in the wind which is still a bit of a problem.

Long story short, I think Ponder can be just as good as Eli. Not great, but good enough.

Marrdro
07-05-2012, 07:12 AM
Re-Watch: Ponder
Ponder definitely exhibits intriguing tools. I thought his arm strength and velocity were much stronger than expected, and believe he has it in him to be a franchise quarterback. But he needs to dramatically improve his decision making, keep his eyes downfield, and get help from his teammates. Aside from Adrian Peterson (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/4169/Adrian-Peterson) in the backfield and Harvin in the slot, there were no explosive elements to Minnesota's 2011 offense. And unless you're the '11 Patriots, NFL teams must pose some semblance of vertical danger to defenses in order for big plays to happen.

Re-Watch: Ponder, DHB, Gettis - Matchups - Rotoworld.com (http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/40825/179/re-watch-ponder-dhb-gettis)

I listened to him on the morning show on Sirius coming into work and found some of his thoughts interesting so I went and dug up his article. Who do you believe, this guy or Cosell?

On a side note......


** Toby Gerhart (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/NFL/5730/Toby-Gerhart) lacks elite talent, but he hits each hole with purpose, churns his legs through contact, and has made major strides in the passing game. He's one of the NFL's top No. 2 backs.

Marrdro
07-05-2012, 07:22 AM
She-Lie is like Jim McMahon...right guy in the right system at the right time.

Problem Ponder has is he's in a horrible system with horrible coaches and a very bad team....not such a great combo.

Caine
Hey, we agree....LOL.

I hope that the signing of Simpson and the drafting of both Childs and Wright might be an indicator that they will go to the WR's a bit more this year.

Silva said that after he reviewed Ponders games he found that the reason he didn't look down field much was because there wasn't anyone to look to and if there was, they were doubled or not even close to open.

Not sure about you, but I'm liking the idea of a Simpson, Childs and Harvin(insert Wrigth) on the field with AD in the backfield.

Marrdro
07-05-2012, 07:25 AM
Here is an interesting quote from Craig Johnson, the Vikings QB coach, on the importance of this offseason for Ponder.

Vikings QB coach sees major progress from Christian Ponder (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/07/03/vikings-qb-coach-sees-major-progress-from-christian-ponder/)
I didn't think it was that big of a deal, but Silva talked at length about how few reps Ponder got in camp because of the need to get Dnabb up to speed.

He said that because the Vikes have made up their mind on who will start, that will pay big dividends with respect to Ponder and his readiness to lead the team this year as apposed to what we saw last year.

tastywaves
07-05-2012, 07:48 AM
Re-Watch: Ponder

Re-Watch: Ponder, DHB, Gettis - Matchups - Rotoworld.com (http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/40825/179/re-watch-ponder-dhb-gettis)

I listened to him on the morning show on Sirius coming into work and found some of his thoughts interesting so I went and dug up his article. Who do you believe, this guy or Cosell?

On a side note......

That is a good representation of Toby.

Overall, it was a pretty good article. It was only 3 games that he looked at, but some good observations. Hopefully Christian does get more help this year from his teammates and can improve on his decision making. I'm expecting them both to be better this year, but the question is how much and will it be enough.

You got your Garcia comparison in there as well CMac.


Ponder can come off as an undersized, Jeff Garcia-ish scrambler, and he may struggle to shed that label until he shows more willingness to stretch defenses.

Marrdro
07-05-2012, 07:51 AM
That is a good representation of Toby.

Overall, it was a pretty good article. It was only 3 games that he looked at, but some good observations. Hopefully Christian does get more help this year from his teammates and can improve on his decision making. I'm expecting them both to be better this year, but the question is how much and will it be enough.

You got your Garcia comparison in there as well CMac.

He explained why he choose those 3 games a bit better on the radio. Kindof a before, during and after comparison as it related to the hip.

C Mac D
07-05-2012, 08:30 AM
How many great QBs have you coached?
How many proteges have you had?
How many championships teams have you coached?
:D

None. I still have this unbelievable ability to look at his resume and make an educated assertion that he's never won anything significant at any level and failed to develop any successful QBs in the NFL. No, it's not a mutant power, just a cognitive skill I've developed over the years.



Why is it that the entire coaching staff is absolutely clueless while you seem to have a firm grasp on the abilities and capabilities of our players. And all this just from watching them from 1200 miles away. Impressive! :)

I have 30/20 vision. Never once had to squint during eye exams.



I bet if he came out and said something about Webb looking good you would take his word as gospel simply because he agreed with you...

Do I have faith in what Craig Johnson says about any Quarterback? No, because he's never worked with/developed a successful QB in this league.

If he did speak up for Webb, it would show some discernible ability to evaluate talent other than just reiterating the company line. "We drafted this guy high, so we better talk him up during camp."



So since you have such a low opinion of Craig Johnson, are you saying that you disagree with his statement about the importance of the first offseason after a QB moves into the starting role? It makes sense to me... but then again I might not have coached as many championship caliber QBs as you have.

I don't disagree with that comment at all... in fact, I've agreed with in many times on these boards when it was said by total amateur fans like myself. Are you suggesting the fact that he says 'the second season matters' makes him a legitimate QB coach in the NFL? If so, I should apply too. Hell, I've accomplished as much in the NFL as he has. (...nothing)

C Mac D
07-05-2012, 02:13 PM
Nodak, thought you might enjoy this little snipit I came across today:


Christian Ponder - Minnesota Vikings - 2012 Player Profile - Rotoworld.com (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/6433/christian-ponder)

After recently re-watching 2011 game tape, NFL Films guru Greg Cosell found himself "more intrigued" with Christian Ponder's "pure throwing ability."
Rotoworld's Evan Silva separately came to the same conclusion. Both analysts noted better than advertised arm strength, pocket composure, athleticism, and confidence in challenging quality cornerbacks.

MaxVike
07-05-2012, 08:18 PM
Re-Watch: Ponder

Re-Watch: Ponder, DHB, Gettis - Matchups - Rotoworld.com (http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/40825/179/re-watch-ponder-dhb-gettis)

I listened to him on the morning show on Sirius coming into work and found some of his thoughts interesting so I went and dug up his article. Who do you believe, this guy or Cosell?

On a side note......

Marr, not an either/or IMHO, in fact, I think they are complimentary points. In the end, I'm hopeful that he makes major progression on a building Team...this year.

We could cut and paste multiple points from experts like Pat Kirwan, Rich Gannon, Jaws, etc...bottom line, I agree with them all, promising signs amongst many shitty decisions on the field with Ponder last year. For clarity, I do not think he will be a top half QB in 2012, but, like many (not all, of the experts), I expect Ponder to perform much better this year.

Caine
07-05-2012, 09:20 PM
Hey, we agree....LOL.

I hope that the signing of Simpson and the drafting of both Childs and Wright might be an indicator that they will go to the WR's a bit more this year.

Silva said that after he reviewed Ponders games he found that the reason he didn't look down field much was because there wasn't anyone to look to and if there was, they were doubled or not even close to open.

Not sure about you, but I'm liking the idea of a Simpson, Childs and Harvin(insert Wrigth) on the field with AD in the backfield.

I don't disagree with the "nothing to look downfield for" assertion - I've been harping about our crappy WR corps for quite awhile.

But I'm not stoked about our WR additions either.

I don't see Simpson as a breakout player - I see him as another mid-tier player filling a roster slot (Hope I'm wrong about that).

As for our WR draftee's, I'm even less thrilled. I think we waited too long and let the talent pool evaporate too much. I think part of why Harvin wants out is that he knows he's on an island this season.

That said, it's going to be hard for Ponder to elevate his game with the talent around him.

Caine

NodakPaul
07-06-2012, 08:31 AM
Nodak, thought you might enjoy this little snipit I came across today:

Nice. I hadn't seen that. Hopefully he and Cosell are both onto something and not just on something...

This pretty much sums it up for me:

Ponder definitely exhibits intriguing tools. I thought his arm strength and velocity were much stronger than expected, and believe he has it in him to be a franchise quarterback. But he needs to dramatically improve his decision making, keep his eyes downfield, and get help from his teammates. Aside from Adrian Peterson in the backfield and Harvin in the slot, there were no explosive elements to Minnesota's 2011 offense. And unless you're the '11 Patriots, NFL teams must pose some semblance of vertical danger to defenses in order for big plays to happen.

C Mac D
07-06-2012, 10:09 AM
Also, the 2nd year Craig Johnson was the QB coach in Tennessee, McNair had his best season and was the AP MVP.

Was waiting for someone to throw that back in my face.

singersp
07-06-2012, 10:11 AM
Proof that he didn't get any snaps with the first team during the offseason? You mean besides common sense or general knowledge of the game? That is easy. Go back to any of the blogs from last year and you can see that McNabb - who was also new to the offense - got all of the first team snaps during the abbreviated offseason. Here is one of many:


In fact, if you remember correctly, Webb took first team snaps while McNabb got initially up to speed.


And then there is Greg Cosell from NFL Films...


And I am sure that somewhere in there he took a few snaps behind the first team, but that is not the same as practicing with them and getting your timings down with them. Regardless, like I said in my previous post... I don't excuse Ponder for his performance because of the limited offseason. I do however recognize the important of a full offseason this year, and think that allowing the starting QB to get as much time as possible to install the offense is the right thing to do.

Common sense or general knowledge of the game tells us that two QB's usually split time with the first team. It wasn't all McNabb.

In fact, your first quote,
Webb and Ponder rotated taking second-team reps behind McNabb. is immediately dismissed by your second quote,
So who is running the Vikings’ first-team offense while Donovan McNabb waits and Christian Ponder learns? Why, of course, it is Joe Webb It's a solid contradiction to the first simply because those blog entries you quoted are probably for one specific day at training camp & not the entire camp & preseason in totality.

Your last quote was more of what I was looking for,
He did not get first-team reps all through camp and the first six weeks of the season.
which was from an article that just came out that I hadn't read.

He did hold & pay for his own minicamp of which he did invite players down to work out with him in an attempt to work on timing, but Harvin (remember the lost cell phone) didn't come & neither did many of the other receivers/TE's. Jenkins & Aromashodu weren't even signed until the first day of TC.

Nevertheless, towards the end of the season he regressed, rather than improved after the Denver game & wasn't very consistent all year, a trait that was always high on your QB rating list that you used to love making charts for.

Now this year he has a whole crop of new receivers to throw to & have to get on page with. How much of the year will he get a "pass" on timing with those receivers?

singersp
07-06-2012, 11:02 AM
That is really what this thread is all about right....TJack. Just can't get over how fans bailed out on that guy, so now they will seek their revenge by pointing out their perceived hypocrisy every chance they can. Different guy, different situation and has no relevance.

No relevance? LOL! No it isn't just about TJ alone, but hipocrisy is quite relevant to what some people are posting now, even though we are talking about different QB's. Because some posters are pointing out that other posters have a double standards, they are accused of playing the hipocrisy card. Well if the shoe fits.....

To summarize it in a nutshell;

TJ: After 16 starts, 8-8 record, 54% completion: PP.O Concensus: Bust, should be cut, has had more than enough starts to be judged.

Webb: After 3 starts, 1-2 record, 58% completion: PP.O Concensus: Will never be anything more than a viable backup and doesn't need any more starts. After 3 starts? Really?

Ponder: After 10 starts, 2-8 record (1 win which Webb actually won), 54% completion. PP.O Concensus: Needs more time, can't be judged yet (even though QB's with 7 less starts can be) Still looks like our franchise QB.

Neither of these guys had a great OL in front of them, nor a great WR corp. All deserve the same amount of starts before being judged & 16, IMO is not that number. Certainly not 3, which some here must feel is enough starts.

If anything, the project QB's would need more time to develope & more starts than "the most NFL ready" QB who was taken number 7 overall in the draft.

It appears to me that that some peoples judging criteria is more forgiving the closer they get to being picked early in the draft.

singersp
07-06-2012, 11:13 AM
So at the moment missing the first 2 games Jerome Simpson and Adrian Peterson's injury recovery are valid for this seasons start.....coaching inadequacies are still apples and apples but Spielman might bring in a tennis player to help the offense in some way or convert a trainer into a scout to help with the opponents tendencies so that would outweigh Childress's speeches water buffalo (http://www.vikingsgab.com/2010/04/23/childress-the-motivator/). Add in sitting guys like Harvin and Rudolph in the red zone or second half of the game....does that equal resting players?

Sure it's valid. Losing AD for the first part of the season on a team that caters the bulk of their offense around that person is definitely going to impact that game. Simpson though is unknown at this point since we have no idea how he will perform as a Viking.

Nevertheless, even if AD & Simpson play day 1, I would not be in favor of benching Ponder, should he be the starter, if we lose the first two games. Let him play & let him play the entire season. Then at the end of the year we can better analyze what we have.

To bench him after the first two games & let Webb or Rosencopter start, would be repeating the same mistake we did in 2008. Find out what you have in your starting QB and move on whether it is with or without him instead of jerking him around from the bench to the field for several years.

tastywaves
07-06-2012, 11:23 AM
No relevance? LOL! No it isn't just about TJ alone, but hipocrisy is quite relevant to what some people are posting now, even though we are talking about different QB's. Because some posters are pointing out that other posters have a double standards, they are accused of playing the hipocrisy card. Well if the shoe fits.....

To summarize it in a nutshell;

TJ: After 16 starts, 8-8 record, 54% completion: PP.O Concensus: Bust, should be cut, has had more than enough starts to be judged.

Webb: After 3 starts, 1-2 record, 58% completion: PP.O Concensus: Will never be anything more than a viable backup and doesn't need any more starts. After 3 starts? Really?

Ponder: After 10 starts, 2-8 record (1 win which Webb actually won), 54% completion. PP.O Concensus: Needs more time, can't be judged yet (even though QB's with 7 less starts can be) Still looks like our franchise QB.

Neither of these guys had a great OL in front of them, nor a great WR corp. All deserve the same amount of starts before being judged & 16, IMO is not that number. Certainly not 3, which some here must feel is enough starts.

If anything, the project QB's would need more time to develope & more starts than "the most NFL ready" QB who was taken number 7 overall in the draft.

It appears to me that that some peoples judging criteria is more forgiving the closer they get to being picked early in the draft.

That's what I thought, this is all about TJack and the "fairness" of the posters on their treatment of him vs. Ponder.

It was a different situation, TJ is a different player, and looking at a few deceiving stats is not going to be the primary determining factor in my opinion. And that's the thing about opinions, they are formed with many different variables that form a perception in each person's mind. And guess what, quite often they are different.

I don't give a shit about TJack and how he was or wasn't treated. I am simply discussing Christian Ponder and what my opinion is on him. That's it. Just let TJack go and tell us what you think about Ponder. If you think it should be a wide open competition with Webb, that's cool. I don't, my eyes tell me that Webb will never be starting caliber QB talent, whereas I believe that Ponder does have a chance. So, because of my myopic opinion, I would rather see us invest in Christian. Nothing more than that, nothing to do with whatever I thought about TJack.

singersp
07-06-2012, 11:35 AM
That's what I thought, this is all about TJack and the "fairness" of the posters on their treatment of him vs. Ponder.

It was a different situation, TJ is a different player, and looking at a few deceiving stats is not going to be the primary determining factor in my opinion. And that's the thing about opinions, they are formed with many different variables that form a perception in each person's mind. And guess what, quite often they are different.

I don't give a shit about TJack and how he was or wasn't treated. I am simply discussing Christian Ponder and what my opinion is on him. That's it. Just let TJack go and tell us what you think about Ponder. If you think it should be a wide open competition with Webb, that's cool. I don't, my eyes tell me that Webb will never be starting caliber QB talent, whereas I believe that Ponder does have a chance. So, because of my myopic opinion, I would rather see us invest in Christian. Nothing more than that, nothing to do with whatever I thought about TJack.

Again, it's not specifically about Jackson as it is about peoples standards towards players playing the same position.

Taking Jackson completely out of the equation, you still are claiming that Webb will never be starting caliber QB talent based on 3 NFL starts. How can you claim that about Webb after 3 starts? What was your judging criteria?

What did you think of Ponder after his first 3 starts?

tastywaves
07-06-2012, 11:53 AM
Again, it's not specifically about Jackson as it is about peoples standards towards players playing the same position.

Taking Jackson completely out of the equation, you still are claiming that Webb will never be starting caliber QB talent based on 3 NFL starts. How can you claim that about Webb after 3 starts? What was your judging criteria?

What did you think of Ponder after his first 3 starts?

If you're going to try and get a grip on people's standards, good luck.

Either you see something in a guy or you don't. I don't see it with Webb. This is a very unqualified opinion from a fan with limited knowledge. Nonetheless, I just don't see it. If you like what you see from the guy, great. You may be right.

I'm pretty sure I could tell in 3 starts that Kevin Williams would be a shitty QB as well. Again, I would ask you to take your stats out of the discussion and base it on your opinion of the player.

C Mac D
07-06-2012, 11:58 AM
Singer, people don't like to be presented with their contradictory viewpoints. They enjoy having double-standards and uninformed opinions. Let them live in la-la land and continue to ignore reality.

singersp
07-06-2012, 12:16 PM
Also, the 2nd year Craig Johnson was the QB coach in Tennessee, McNair had his best season and was the AP MVP.

Was waiting for someone to throw that back in my face.

And only a few short years later, the Titans changed the locks on their facilities & didn't give McNair a new key.

After 7 years of being a QB coach for the Titans, Johnson was made the RB's coach in 2009. Wonder why?

C Mac D
07-06-2012, 12:24 PM
And only a few short years later, the Titans changed the locks on their facilities & didn't give McNair a new key.

After 7 years of being a QB coach for the Titans, Johnson was made the RB's coach in 2009. Wonder why?

This is true... and Chris Johnson ran for 2,006 yards.

singersp
07-06-2012, 12:28 PM
If you're going to try and get a grip on people's standards, good luck.

Either you see something in a guy or you don't. I don't see it with Webb. This is a very unqualified opinion from a fan with limited knowledge. Nonetheless, I just don't see it. If you like what you see from the guy, great. You may be right.

I'm pretty sure I could tell in 3 starts that Kevin Williams would be a shitty QB as well. Again, I would ask you to take your stats out of the discussion and base it on your opinion of the player.

If Webb & Ponder were like night & day, I could see preferring one over the other, but to label a QB as being nothing more than a backup after 3 starts, who played equally as well as Ponder, I don't see it.

I would have to see several back to back starts by Webb before labeling him anything.

The thing I liked about Ponder at first was he reminded of Tommy Kramer in that he tried to make something happen with his arm, whereas Webb used his feet, but that doesn't mean to me that Ponder has a better shot at being a star & that Webb is more likely to be a bust.

tastywaves
07-06-2012, 01:44 PM
If Webb & Ponder were like night & day, I could see preferring one over the other, but to label a QB as being nothing more than a backup after 3 starts, who played equally as well as Ponder, I don't see it.

I would have to see several back to back starts by Webb before labeling him anything.

The thing I liked about Ponder at first was he reminded of Tommy Kramer in that he tried to make something happen with his arm, whereas Webb used his feet, but that doesn't mean to me that Ponder has a better shot at being a star & that Webb is more likely to be a bust.

Glad you are keeping an open mind. I personally think investing in Webb as a future long term QB for the Vikings would be a mistake, but that's just my opinion. With Ponder, for me, the jury is still out, but he shows a lot more characteristics that could translate into a good starter in this league than Webb.

The coaches have to make a decision on where they want to invest their time, based on what they feel is their best option. At this point, that appears to be Ponder. They, like me, could very well be wrong as well. But I don't see fault in their approach.

tastywaves
07-06-2012, 01:47 PM
There's the CMac we know and love. You've been doing a pretty good job this time around of restraining yourself. I'm sure your fingers have been getting pretty itchy.

singersp
07-07-2012, 10:34 AM
Glad you are keeping an open mind. I personally think investing in Webb as a future long term QB for the Vikings would be a mistake, but that's just my opinion. With Ponder, for me, the jury is still out, but he shows a lot more characteristics that could translate into a good starter in this league than Webb.

The coaches have to make a decision on where they want to invest their time, based on what they feel is their best option. At this point, that appears to be Ponder. They, like me, could very well be wrong as well. But I don't see fault in their approach.

Look, I'm not saying the Vikings should invest in Webb over Ponder, I'm just saying that I believe it's unfair to label Webb as nothing more than a backup QB after seeing him play in a handful of games, but the jury is still out on someone you've watched play even more.

Your certainly entitled to your opinion, I just don't see it that way. I believe that both need several starts before claiming anything about either one of them, regardless of where they were drafted.

Some people want to give Ponder more time because he was drafted so early & want to close the books on Webb because he was drafted much later. Not saying he will be great, but several damn good QB's were drafted in later rounds or not drafted at all. They need to be given an opportunity unless they are total head-cases.

Caine
07-07-2012, 07:14 PM
Look, I'm not saying the Vikings should invest in Webb over Ponder, I'm just saying that I believe it's unfair to label Webb as nothing more than a backup QB after seeing him play in a handful of games, but the jury is still out on someone you've watched play even more.

Your certainly entitled to your opinion, I just don't see it that way. I believe that both need several starts before claiming anything about either one of them, regardless of where they were drafted.

Some people want to give Ponder more time because he was drafted so early & want to close the books on Webb because he was drafted much later. Not saying he will be great, but several damn good QB's were drafted in later rounds or not drafted at all. They need to be given an opportunity unless they are total head-cases.

For me it was never a simple matter of stats. It was what I saw in the games. Did the QB appear to progress? Did his play get SMARTER? Did the offense achieve goals or come progressively closer to doing so as time went by?

For Jackson, the answer was "No". He showed a lot of POTENTIAL, but it never seemed to materialize. If you wanted a SAFE QB who relied on the Defense and a strong running game to win, Jackson was your guy. But whenever the team was put on his shoulders, he collapsed.

For Webb, he hasn't had enough field time to decide what kind of QB he is...or isn't. But his PEDIGREE is something that makes me think there may not be enough there to pursue. Many times a back-up QB, or a guy with little game tape, can come in and light it up...for awhile. Simply because the opposing side doesn't know what to prepare for. With Webb, there isn't much on him. But the little we've seen has been exciting...but nothing I'd say warrants us betting the franchise on him.

Ponder has shown a little progress, but FOR ME not enough to crown him. This being his second year, I'm very interested to see if he's made advances over his rookie season. Remember, Jackson got to sit and learn for an entire season before seriously starting...Ponder didn't. I think that the fact that Ponder has been named "The Guy" is too soon, but I don't see anyone else on the roster seriously a threat to him. Not with the team we have.

Bottom line, there's no hypocrisy in that position - each QB has been judged according to what they've shown OVERALL...not based upon a handful of manipulable stats. Jackson was given his shots...over and over and over. Give Ponder the same benefit of the doubt. If Ponder sucks wang out of the gate this season, he won't get a lot of love. Jackson got until year 3.....

Caine

singersp
07-08-2012, 09:01 AM
For me it was never a simple matter of stats. It was what I saw in the games. Did the QB appear to progress? Did his play get SMARTER? Did the offense achieve goals or come progressively closer to doing so as time went by?

For Jackson, the answer was "No". He showed a lot of POTENTIAL, but it never seemed to materialize. If you wanted a SAFE QB who relied on the Defense and a strong running game to win, Jackson was your guy. But whenever the team was put on his shoulders, he collapsed.

For Webb, he hasn't had enough field time to decide what kind of QB he is...or isn't. But his PEDIGREE is something that makes me think there may not be enough there to pursue. Many times a back-up QB, or a guy with little game tape, can come in and light it up...for awhile. Simply because the opposing side doesn't know what to prepare for. With Webb, there isn't much on him. But the little we've seen has been exciting...but nothing I'd say warrants us betting the franchise on him.

Ponder has shown a little progress, but FOR ME not enough to crown him. This being his second year, I'm very interested to see if he's made advances over his rookie season. Remember, Jackson got to sit and learn for an entire season before seriously starting...Ponder didn't. I think that the fact that Ponder has been named "The Guy" is too soon, but I don't see anyone else on the roster seriously a threat to him. Not with the team we have.

Bottom line, there's no hypocrisy in that position - each QB has been judged according to what they've shown OVERALL...not based upon a handful of manipulable stats. Jackson was given his shots...over and over and over. Give Ponder the same benefit of the doubt. If Ponder sucks wang out of the gate this season, he won't get a lot of love. Jackson got until year 3.....

Caine

Couple of corrections. Jackson didn't sit out the entire first year, he played in the last 3. Secondly, Jackson didn't get the benefit of the doubt until year 3. He was getting crucified by several fans here from game 1 of the 2007 season & it never stopped & by some starting in 2006. Let's not forget how pissed people were that the Vikings didn't bring in a possible starting QB to challenge Jackson for the starting job & brought in Bollinger instead.

Even with that, they were clamoring early in the season that they were tired of the TJ project & wanted to start Bollinger instead.

Here's a thread started in October of 2007, 1 month into the season of his first year starting;

http://www.purplepride.org/f2/anyone-else-tired-tj-project-658578/

I don't see much "benefit of the doubt".

Caine
07-08-2012, 02:31 PM
Couple of corrections. Jackson didn't sit out the entire first year, he played in the last 3. Secondly, Jackson didn't get the benefit of the doubt until year 3. He was getting crucified by several fans here from game 1 of the 2007 season & it never stopped & by some starting in 2006. Let's not forget how pissed people were that the Vikings didn't bring in a possible starting QB to challenge Jackson for the starting job & brought in Bollinger instead.

Even with that, they were clamoring early in the season that they were tired of the TJ project & wanted to start Bollinger instead.

Here's a thread started in October of 2007, 1 month into the season of his first year starting;

http://www.purplepride.org/f2/anyone-else-tired-tj-project-658578/

I don't see much "benefit of the doubt".

Jackson played in 4 games, started 2. No one expected much from him in that stretch as he was a raw rookie. He DID have a full TC to learn in, and DID have a virtually complete season of watching to develop during....something Ponder didn't have.

By October of '07, we had seen what Jackson had available...and it wasn't pretty. Let me recap:

Week 1 versus Atlanta, we win on the strength of a great defensive effort (2 TDs) and Peterson's legs. Jackson gets a TD pass to AP...but adds an INT as well.

Week 2 versus Detroit, Jackson's 4 INT day leads to a loss despite another great DEFENSIVE effort.

Week 3: Holcomb plays. Offense ineffective, Defense slips and allows KC to win.

Week 4: Holcomb again starts, but is unable to beat Green Bay...despite it being a FG fest.

Week 5: In a win over Chicago, Peterson has a 3 TD day while Jackson manages to go 9/23 for 136 and a TD (To Stone Hands Williamson). Bottom line, Peterson won this one. Jackson - as usual - was along for the ride.

Week 6: Jackson goes 6/19 for 72 yards in a beating by the Cowboys. Our Offense disappears in the 2nd half, and the Defense fails to stop Dallas.

THE THREAD YOU LINKED GETS STARTED

Granted, it wasn't 16 games...it wasn't 3 solid years of support....but don't you also see that there are PLENTY of people who are bagging on Ponder right now? Jackson wasn't the first QB to be written off after a handful of starts, and he won't be the last. But your attempt to somehow be his avenging angel is misplaced.

Jackson sucked. He NEVER got appreciably better. The fact that the observations/accusations of that started early didn't change what happened. Furthermore, Childress told us he was ready!!! Childress anointed Jackson as starter, then brought in 2 sad-sack QB's to ENSURE that Jackson was the uncontested starter. Jackson, to many of us, was simply proof positive that Childress didn't have a friggin' clue.

The MAIN difference to me is that Ponder doesn't sit back and let the OTHER aspects of the team carry him. He stands on his own and plays...something Jackson never really seemed to do. THAT is why I'm far more inclined to see if Ponder can continue to develop than I ever was with Jackson.

BTW, I had to go to page 8 to find MY first post in that thread - Here's what I said then:


Tarvaris had many situations where he had time...and held the ball.

Tarvaris had many other situations where he had time, made the throw, but was inaccurate (Much like he has been ALL season).

There were, to be fair, also a handful of times towards the end, where Dallas was on him right away...and he managed to botch those too.

See, at this point in the "project", I would expect to see some positive results.
Better accuracy, timing, feeling pocket pressure, something.
Instead, I think Jackson has flat-lined.
I haven't seen him getting better, I've simply seen all the attention put on Adrian Peterson and everyone sort of forgot how mediocre (at best) Jackson has been all season.

We converted only 16% of our 3rd down attempts.
How can an offense that isn't on the field hope to score....or even improve?


Jackson hit only 6 of 19 passes.
That's @ 30%.
Take away 1 or 2 that were catchable, and you STILL have a QB that can't deliver the ball on target.

Now, for the REALLY bad news....

6 games into the season is NOT the time to be searching for a new QB.
No one thinks Holcomb is the answer, and I seriously doubt anyone wants Bollinger to start, so we're left with Jackson.
Might as well play the kid, we don't lose anything by doing so and we certainly won't gain anything if we play the other two.....UNLESS...

Unless the Vikes are willing to say, "Nope, Jackson isn't the guy, we plan on drafting a QB next year", in which case you sit JAckson and play Holcomb.

But, the way I see it, Childress will stay with Jackson.

And, when you put that on the list of "The Stupid Decisions Brad Childress Makes"....it's pretty low on the list.

Caine

I was SO unfair...

Caine

Marrdro
07-17-2012, 11:27 AM
How did this turn into a TJ thread. Don't have time to go back into the thread to figure it out.

Caine
07-17-2012, 01:49 PM
How did this turn into a TJ thread. Don't have time to go back into the thread to figure it out.

Because some people still think we just needed to give him more starts, another chance, more love, more viagra, whatever and pounce on any perceived advantage that another player (Ponder) is allegedly getting that Jackson allegedly didn't.

Caine

singersp
07-18-2012, 06:44 AM
How did this turn into a TJ thread. Don't have time to go back into the thread to figure it out.


Because some people still think we just needed to give him more starts, another chance, more love, more viagra, whatever and pounce on any perceived advantage that another player (Ponder) is allegedly getting that Jackson allegedly didn't.

Caine

Actually, while others were talking about Ponder or Webb, you were the first one to bring up Jackson's name in two different posts & the one to bring his name up the 3rd time & get the ball rolling was someone who wasn't an advocate of Jackson at all.


Maybe you could go back and revisit your posts when Jackson missed the 3rd and 4th preseason games and how much that affected him or how different that would be for a rookie not getting any ota mini camp time due to a lockout, I'd be quite interest on your take on both accounts.

Marrdro
07-18-2012, 08:10 AM
Actually, while others were talking about Ponder or Webb, you were the first one to bring up Jackson's name in two different posts & the one to bring his name up the 3rd time & get the ball rolling was someone who wasn't an advocate of Jackson at all.
I also mentioned Eli and several others but it didn't turn into a thread about them.

Marrdro
07-18-2012, 08:12 AM
Because some people still think we just needed to give him more starts, another chance, more love, more viagra, whatever and pounce on any perceived advantage that another player (Ponder) is allegedly getting that Jackson allegedly didn't.

Caine
LOL, I still owe you beer. Need to get that settled. (Doesn't mean I've changed my mind though).....:haha:

singersp
07-19-2012, 06:51 AM
I also mentioned Eli and several others but it didn't turn into a thread about them.

You know how it is, fans who never liked Jackson, keep tossing his name into posts & when someone finally responds to one of those posts, well you know the story.

BTW, No one is saying here they still think we just needed to give him more starts, they are saying Ponder needs more starts.

No one is saying here that TJ needs another chance, they are saying Ponder does.

And no one is saying TJ needs more love, Ponder does.

And no one is saying he needs more viagra or anything else for that matter.

Actually it was more of a discussion about Ponder vs Webb.

In summary Ponder needs more time than the 10 games he's played in, a full offseason to work with the starters, better receivers, a better line, better coaching before he can be judged, whereas Webb , who out played Ponder last year, can be adequately judged after 3 starts & didn't need a full offseason to work with the starters, better receivers, a better line or better coaching before he could be judged.

NodakPaul
07-19-2012, 09:25 AM
You know how it is, fans who never liked Jackson, keep tossing his name into posts & when someone finally responds to one of those posts, well you know the story.

BTW, No one is saying here they still think we just needed to give him more starts, they are saying Ponder needs more starts.

No one is saying here that TJ needs another chance, they are saying Ponder does.

And no one is saying TJ needs more love, Ponder does.

And no one is saying he needs more viagra or anything else for that matter.

Actually it was more of a discussion about Ponder vs Webb.

In summary Ponder needs more time than the 10 games he's played in, a full offseason to work with the starters, better receivers, a better line, better coaching before he can be judged, whereas Webb , who out played Ponder last year, can be adequately judged after 3 starts & didn't need a full offseason to work with the starters, better receivers, a better line or better coaching before he could be judged.

I love how you say we can't judge Webb on just three starts, but then you use and even smaller body of work to say that he "out played Ponder last year." Never mind their fact that the stats were virtually identical.

Completion %:
Webb - 54.0%
Ponder - 54.3%

Average YPP:
Webb - 6.0 yards
Ponder - 6.4 yards

TD %:
Webb - 4.7%
Ponder - 4.4%

INT %:
Webb - 3.1%
Ponder - 4.4%

Rushing Ave:
Webb - 7.0 yards
Ponder - 7.8 yards

QB Rating:
Webb - 74.6
Ponder - 70.1

I'm sorry, but anyone who says that one played better than the other needs to go back and watch the games. They played damn near identical.

I am one of the people who doesn't think that Webb will be a starter in the NFL, but that has more to do with his style of play than his play itself. And I fully admit that I could be wrong and he could surprise me. But right now we don't have the luxury of the time and talent needed to sit back and invest the effort we need to decide which (if either) or our young QBs will be the one to lead us to the promised land. Installing one now as our starter gives the team the best chance for success, and based on the style of Webb's play versus the style of Ponder, as well as the potential based on previous experience, I feel that Ponder is the correct choice.

Marrdro
07-19-2012, 10:53 AM
In summary Ponder needs more time than the 10 games he's played in, a full offseason to work with the starters, better receivers, a better line, better coaching before he can be judged, whereas Webb , who out played Ponder last year, can be adequately judged after 3 starts & didn't need a full offseason to work with the starters, better receivers, a better line or better coaching before he could be judged.
It isn't that we are judging Webb. Its that we are supporting the staff when it comes to what QB they are going to focus on to be the starter.

That my friend is what is the most important point in all of this. Trying to split reps wouldn't really benefit either one of them, nor the rest of the team.

Long story short, pick your starter and go with him. Football 101.

Probably the wrong example, but that's what it looks like the Seachickens are going to do after watching their QB's during OTA's. They brought in Flynn and drafted a young gunslinger. Flynn's arm isn't strong enough to run the offense and the young cat isn't ready to go yet, so it appears right now that they are going to start out (devote reps to) with TJ. Doesn't mean one is a better QB than the other.

Just means that its the best thing for the team.

Marrdro
07-19-2012, 10:58 AM
I love how you say we can't judge Webb on just three starts, but then you use and even smaller body of work to say that he "out played Ponder last year." Never mind their fact that the stats were virtually identical.

Completion %:
Webb - 54.0%
Ponder - 54.3%

Average YPP:
Webb - 6.0 yards
Ponder - 6.4 yards

TD %:
Webb - 4.7%
Ponder - 4.4%

INT %:
Webb - 3.1%
Ponder - 4.4%

Rushing Ave:
Webb - 7.0 yards
Ponder - 7.8 yards

QB Rating:
Webb - 74.6
Ponder - 70.1

I'm sorry, but anyone who says that one played better than the other needs to go back and watch the games. They played damn near identical.

I am one of the people who doesn't think that Webb will be a starter in the NFL, but that has more to do with his style of play than his play itself. And I fully admit that I could be wrong and he could surprise me. But right now we don't have the luxury of the time and talent needed to sit back and invest the effort we need to decide which (if either) or our young QBs will be the one to lead us to the promised land. Installing one now as our starter gives the team the best chance for success, and based on the style of Webb's play versus the style of Ponder, as well as the potential based on previous experience, I feel that Ponder is the correct choice.
Hey, what happened to "Redzone Percentage"?

Just kidding. Great post my friend.

I think I've seen enough to think that Ponder is the better option, mostly because of a perception on my part that he has a bigger upside wrt abilities to more along the lines of a "Traditional" QB in this league whereas Webb is more of a "Running/Wildcat" option.

One will wind up playing more games per season than the other, keeping in mind that guys like that (Vic has only played 16 games once) tend to get hurt alot more than a "Traditional" QB.

singersp
07-20-2012, 06:16 AM
I'm sorry, but anyone who says that one played better than the other needs to go back and watch the games. They played damn near identical.

OK, say they performed nearly identical. Your still clamoring that you need more time to judge Ponder even though he's had over 3x the starts Webb has, but you've made up your mind about Webb after 3 starts. Do you recall how Ponder looked after his 3rd start?

singersp
07-20-2012, 06:24 AM
It isn't that we are judging Webb.

But you have....



Even though I agree that it is way to soon to judge Webb, it is painfully obvious that young Webb is a runner rather than a thrower.


Perhaps you should be blaming the coaches & not Webb.


I blame the coaches not the player. The players have the talent, its just up to the coaches to grow/refine/update that talent.

And if Ponder continues to take off running when he's in trouble, like he did early last season rather than stay in the pocket, we already know who your blaming.



If Ponder doesn't progress like I think he should, I'm going looking for coaches heads, not the players head.

NodakPaul
07-21-2012, 08:30 AM
OK, say they performed nearly identical. Your still clamoring that you need more time to judge Ponder even though he's had over 3x the starts Webb has, but you've made up your mind about Webb after 3 starts. Do you recall how Ponder looked after his 3rd start?

Wait, what? Do you even read my posts?


I am one of the people who doesn't think that Webb will be a starter in the NFL, but that has more to do with his style of play than his play itself. And I fully admit that I could be wrong and he could surprise me. But right now we don't have the luxury of the time and talent needed to sit back and invest the effort we need to decide which (if either) or our young QBs will be the one to lead us to the promised land. Installing one now as our starter gives the team the best chance for success, and based on the style of Webb's play versus the style of Ponder, as well as the potential based on previous experience, I feel that Ponder is the correct choice.

Where was I saying anything about one or the other needing more time before we can judge them? Pretty sure I said that we don't have the luxury of time to have them slug it out, and so we have to choose one now.

An NFL team can't just NOT make a decision because they haven't seen enough starts. They need to use what information they do have and make a choice. Right now Ponder is that choice.

Caine
07-21-2012, 11:08 PM
LOL, I still owe you beer. Need to get that settled. (Doesn't mean I've changed my mind though).....:haha:

YES YOU DO!!!!!!


And I hope to collect this season...


Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer.

Caine

singersp
07-22-2012, 11:09 AM
Wait, what? Do you even read my post?

Where was I saying anything about one or the other needing more time before we can judge them? Pretty sure I said that we don't have the luxury of time to have them slug it out, and so we have to choose one now.

An NFL team can't just NOT make a decision because they haven't seen enough starts. They need to use what information they do have and make a choice. Right now Ponder is that choice.

Yes, I read your posts & I do understand why you want the Vikings to go with Ponder over Webb this year because of his style of play & I also understand why the Vikings did too.

Favre had a different style of play, as did Tarkenton.

What I don't understand is how you (from an earlier post) & others can state that Webb will never be nothing more than a viable backup.

From what I've read in posts from some fans so far;

Ponder needs at least 16 more starts (26 total) before he can be labeled starting QB material or nothing more than a backup, but Webb only needed 3 starts to determine he'll never pan out & is nothing more than a good backup.

Additionally, Ponder needs a full offseason to work out with the starters before he can be labeled starting QB material or nothing more than a backup, but Webb didn't need a full offseason to work out with the starters before it was determined he'll never pan out & is nothing more than a good backup.

Additionally, our OL was crap last year & Ponder needs the chance to play behind an improved OL before he can be labeled starting QB material or nothing more than a backup, but the OL Webb played behind was adequate to determine he'll never pan out & is nothing more than a good backup.

Additionally, Ponder needs to play behind a better OL before he can be labeled starting QB material or nothing more than a backup, but the OL Webb played behind was adequate to determine he'll never pan out & is nothing more than a good backup.

Additionally, our receiving corp was mediocre last year, sans Harvin, so Ponder needs to play with a better receiving corp before he can be labeled starting QB material or nothing more than a backup, but the receiving corp Webb played behind was adequate to determine he'll never pan out & is nothing more than a good backup.

And to toss in Marrdro's 2 cents.

Webb failed to excell to his expectations after 3 starts, Webb's fault.
If Ponder fails to excell to his expectations (which so far he's done after 10 starts) & he fails to do it after 16 more starts -- coaches fault.

Marrdro
07-23-2012, 09:02 AM
YES YOU DO!!!!!!


And I hope to collect this season...


Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer.

Caine

Work has been nuts but you and EJ need to figure out a game so we can get together. He won't commit by the way. To busy with his FB friends......:)

Marrdro
07-23-2012, 09:05 AM
But you have....



Perhaps you should be blaming the coaches & not Webb.



And if Ponder continues to take off running when he's in trouble, like he did early last season rather than stay in the pocket, we already know who your blaming.
I'm not judging. I'm only saying that I agree with the coaches to devote all the reps to Ponder and giving the rationale behind it.

Again, not judging. Just agreeing because, as I said, its the coaches who have to make it work.