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View Full Version : Overall thoughts on the draft + UDFA



skum
04-28-2012, 08:56 PM
Seems like we are done, we have a draft class of

1st - #4 – Matt Kalil, OT - USC
1st - #29 – Harrison Smith, SS - Notre Dame
3rd - #66 - Josh Robinson, CB - UCF
4th - #118 – Jarius Wright, WR - Arkansas
4th - #128 – Rhett Ellison, FB/TE - USC
4th - #134 - Greg Childs, WR - Arkansas
5th - #139 – Robert Blanton, CB/S - Notre Dame
6th - #175 – Blair Walsh, K - Georgia
7th - #210 – Audie Cole, OLB/ILB - North Carolina State
7th - #219 - Trevor Guyton, DE/DT - California

We also picked up a 4th and a 6th round pick next year.

Loved the Kalil pick and loved the trade into 4th to save a little bit of money proberly along with picking up extra picks, which helped us moving back into the first round to select Smith, another great pick who fits maybe our biggest need.

Josh Robinson was a corner i really liked, he can play right away and has blazing speed to run the the fastest guys down the field..

Then it started getting a little bit wrong for me, the two Arkansas wideouts were not really the kind of wideouts i was thinking we should select, i would rather have selected someone who was projected to play the outside WR-Spot.

I thought we had already covered the TE/FB need in Free Agency

Selecting Blair Walsh shocked me, are we really gonna go with two kickers on the roster or is Longwell done here?, i don't really know about that.. Blair Walsh was the best kicker on College Football two years ago but suddenly had a shockingly bad year last year and no one knows what happened to him but he couldnt be trusted anymore and Georgia had to use another kicker in some situations instead.

Blanton seems like an ok pick up, but i don't know much about him other than he might have the ability to play safety and he could get a shot there..

Audie Cole and Guyton seems like good value picks from what i know.

UDFA's:

I know nothing about any of these guys, i have heard of Corey Paredes but never read anything on him, we will see if any of these guys make the team.

• Boise State DT Chase Baker
• UCLA RB Derrick Coleman
• Florida Atlantic DE Kevin Cyrille
• Nicholls State CB Bobby Felder
• Bowling Green WR Kamar Jorden
• Penn State DE Eric Latimore
• Iowa LB Tyler Nielsen
• Cal DE Ernest Owusu
• Hawaii LB Corey Paredes
• Virginia G Austin Pasztor
• North Carolina DT Tydreke Powell
• Missouri DT Terrell Resonno
• Mississippi State C Quentin Saulsberry
• Oregon T Darrion Weems
• South Carolina CB CC Whitlock

Six d-linemen among 15 undrafted who agree to terms with Vikings | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Six_dlinemen_among_15_undrafted_who_agree_to_terms_with_Vikings042812)

vikinggreg
04-28-2012, 09:15 PM
Gil Brandt's top 10 undrafted

(http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000d5d828ba719/article/top-undrafted-free-agent-list-led-by-washington-rb-chris-polk)
6. Quentin Saulsberry, C, Mississippi State -- Saulsberry has played all positions along the line in his college career, started at tackle, guard and center. This year, he had five starts at center and nine at guard, but his best position is center. He's very competitive, athletic, and has the intangibles and strong attitude to be a good player.


Saulsberry sounds like Ryan Cook.....when discribed by Childress :think:

Tyler Nielsen is his top rated linebacker as he runs down the top 5 left by position but he didn't list Burfict in the group, I guess due to some of Burficts issues

skum
04-28-2012, 09:25 PM
Here is a PDF Post Draft Guide that the Vikings PR Department put together
http://t.co/sSReDg7e

ConnecticutViking
04-28-2012, 09:38 PM
We could have been more productive in round 4...not crazy about the WR's and the FB pick is still a little confusing to me? Then...A KICKER? WE DRAFTED A KICKER? WE DRAFTED AN AVERAGE KICKER? NOT EVEN THE BEST KICKER ON THE BOARD??? YOU PICK BLAIR OVER ANGER? FORGET THAT...YOU PICK A KICKER?:petersaysowsmall: Overall a good draft, but I think we could have done better.

vikinggreg
04-28-2012, 09:41 PM
Here is a PDF Post Draft Guide that the Vikings PR Department put together
http://t.co/sSReDg7e

Thanks for the link it was a good read

skum
04-28-2012, 09:52 PM
We could have been more productive in round 4...not crazy about the WR's and the FB pick is still a little confusing to me? Then...A KICKER? WE DRAFTED A KICKER? WE DRAFTED AN AVERAGE KICKER? NOT EVEN THE BEST KICKER ON THE BOARD??? YOU PICK BLAIR OVER ANGER? FORGET THAT...YOU PICK A KICKER?:petersaysowsmall: Overall a good draft, but I think we could have done better.

Anger went in the third round and is a punter ;)

Marrdro
04-28-2012, 11:40 PM
Anger went in the third round and is a punter ;)


OVERVIEWWalsh is a three-year starter with an active and strong leg. He consistently puts the ball in the end zone on kickoffs and has been reliable enough that a team with a need may select him to keep him off the free-agent market.
ANALYSISSTRENGTHS Walsh is a confident kicker who will let it rip from beyond 60 yards. He is most reliable in mid-range kicks. He is a good athlete who is capable of making a tackle as a last resort.WEAKNESSES
Walsh has been inaccurate at times when he tries to drive the ball too hard.

Blair Walsh Draft Profile (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/profiles/blair-walsh?id=2533011)

28 touch backs and can hit a FG from 60 yards if he doesn't try to over kick it.

I think thats a cat you use a 6th round pick on especially when you consider that the owner is looking to put a cheap team on the field. Sign him for nothing, let him KO and hope Shortwells FG issues are gone. If their not, you let the kid kick the rest of the year and teach him on to kick just as hard on a 20 as you do on a 60 yarder so his consistency improves.

skum
04-29-2012, 02:27 AM
Blair Walsh Draft Profile (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/profiles/blair-walsh?id=2533011)

28 touch backs and can hit a FG from 60 yards if he doesn't try to over kick it.

I think thats a cat you use a 6th round pick on especially when you consider that the owner is looking to put a cheap team on the field. Sign him for nothing, let him KO and hope Shortwells FG issues are gone. If their not, you let the kid kick the rest of the year and teach him on to kick just as hard on a 20 as you do on a 60 yarder so his consistency improves.

That is proberly the plan, i just don't think its a good idea to keep 2 Kickers on the roster, If Walsh can find his consistancy he will be great, he was the best kicker in college two years ago.. he was very good, Georgia relied on him to make big time field goals and won games because of it.. Thats why it was even more disappointing to see him struggle so bad last season.

If we can get Walsh in to being a full-time kicker, we can also say goodbye to Longwell who also holds a pretty big contract (for a kicker that is).

12purplepride28
04-29-2012, 02:42 AM
I was really disappointed in the final round. It seemed like we were taking picks that don't really have much superstar potential. I'd much rather take someone like Burfict and Dennard, guys that have amazing potential and are low risk/very high reward players. Better than taking someone like Ross Homan who's just out of the league in a year. If they don't work out, then whatever. But if they do, the rewards can be amazing.

I am infuriated we didn't take Dennard actually. But if he had to go to another team, I'm glad it was the Patriots.

ConnecticutViking
04-29-2012, 05:41 AM
Anger went in the third round and is a punter ;)

Oops...my bad...I don't know the kickers, because....most teams don't draft them

Marrdro
04-29-2012, 06:52 AM
That is proberly the plan, i just don't think its a good idea to keep 2 Kickers on the roster, If Walsh can find his consistancy he will be great, he was the best kicker in college two years ago.. he was very good, Georgia relied on him to make big time field goals and won games because of it.. Thats why it was even more disappointing to see him struggle so bad last season.

If we can get Walsh in to being a full-time kicker, we can also say goodbye to Longwell who also holds a pretty big contract (for a kicker that is).

Interesting article from Scout that doesn't paint this kid as bad as some on here do.

Scout.com: Draft in-depth: Kicker Blair Walsh (http://min.scout.com/2/1181939.html)

Marrdro
04-29-2012, 06:59 AM
I was really disappointed in the final round. It seemed like we were taking picks that don't really have much superstar potential. I'd much rather take someone like Burfict and Dennard, guys that have amazing potential and are low risk/very high reward players. Better than taking someone like Ross Homan who's just out of the league in a year. If they don't work out, then whatever. But if they do, the rewards can be amazing.

I am infuriated we didn't take Dennard actually. But if he had to go to another team, I'm glad it was the Patriots.
Well, maybe not immediate superstar potential, but how many superstars are actually drafted that late in the draft?

Nice breakdown of each pick, but specifically to the 7th round...


SEVENTH ROUND (210TH OVERALL)AUDIE COLELinebacker • North Carolina State • 6-4, 246• Able to play either on the strong side or in the middle. Played through thumb and wrist injuries without missing time. Moved inside from the strong side as a senior and led the Wolfpack with 108 tackles in 2011 with 13 1/2 tackles for loss and five sacks. Intelligent, quick off the ball and with some pass-rush ability, but he can be beat to the outside.
The quote: "He can probably play all three [linebacking] positions." -- Spielman.
SEVENTH ROUND (219TH OVERALL)TREVOR GUYTONDefensive lineman • California • 6-2 1/2, 285Started all 13 games as senior -- one at nose guard, three at defensive end -- and had 46 tackles, 12 tackles for loss and 5 1/2 sacks with two forced fumbles. Stout and thick, he plays with leverage and can create a good push. Good with his hands. Strong tackler. Is raw as a pass rush and needs to get better at shedding blocks.
The quote: "He can play the 3 technique, he can also play some left defensive end and was used as a nickel rusher over the nose." -- Spielman.

Vikings' draft class: Notes and quotes | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/149388675.html)

The more I look at this draft class, the more I like how it fits together with what appears to be the plan to get the ball rolling on the roster again.

Again, maybe not instant stars but I bet both of them get reps this year and both should provide instant help on ST's.

singersp
04-29-2012, 07:46 AM
Interesting article from Scout that doesn't paint this kid as bad as some on here do.

Scout.com: Draft in-depth: Kicker Blair Walsh (http://min.scout.com/2/1181939.html)

A few years ago he was good. Last year he tanked.

I guess we drafted The Blair Walsh Project.

Marrdro
04-29-2012, 08:11 AM
A few years ago he was good. Last year he tanked.

I guess we drafted The Blair Walsh Project.
You still haven't provided what ole Shortwell did in college my friend. Gimme those stats that have him even a little better than Walsh and I will relent.

Until then I like what the kid brings......

a. A hell of a leg that will kick TB's.
b. A hell of a leg that can make 10 out of 17 outside the 50 with a few of them coming outside the 60.
c. A kid that will tackle on ST's, if a team does return one of his kicks.

Does that mean he is ready for the HOF? Nope, but what it means is that, right along with the QB, WR, and DB positions, we have a kid that will eventually learn his craft.

Again, why wait to develop that kid? Let him get the bugs out while all the other players are doing the same especially considering the Owners aren't putting out the amount of money they would need to put a HOF'r on the the field at every position like you want.

singersp
04-29-2012, 08:14 AM
You still haven't provided what ole Shortwell did in college my friend. Gimme those stats that have him even a little better than Walsh and I will relent.

Until then I like what the kid brings......

a. A hell of a leg that will kick TB's.
b. A hell of a leg that can make 10 out of 17 outside the 50 with a few of them coming outside the 60.
c. A kid that will tackle on ST's, if a team does return one of his kicks.

Does that mean he is ready for the HOF? Nope, but what it means is that, right along with the QB, WR, and DB positions, we have a kid that will eventually learn his craft.

Again, why wait to develop that kid? Let him get the bugs out while all the other players are doing the same especially considering the Owners aren't putting out the amount of money they would need to put a HOF'r on the the field at every position like you want.

Yes I did give you the stats. Perhaps you need to revisit the thread that I responded to you with it.

He was 69% in college.

MaxVike
04-29-2012, 08:34 AM
You still haven't provided what ole Shortwell did in college my friend. Gimme those stats that have him even a little better than Walsh and I will relent.

Until then I like what the kid brings......

a. A hell of a leg that will kick TB's.
b. A hell of a leg that can make 10 out of 17 outside the 50 with a few of them coming outside the 60.
c. A kid that will tackle on ST's, if a team does return one of his kicks.

Does that mean he is ready for the HOF? Nope, but what it means is that, right along with the QB, WR, and DB positions, we have a kid that will eventually learn his craft.

Again, why wait to develop that kid? Let him get the bugs out while all the other players are doing the same especially considering the Owners aren't putting out the amount of money they would need to put a HOF'r on the the field at every position like you want.

I actually don't have a problem with our War Room picking the guys they want. If the Blair Walsh Project kicks the ball out the back of the end zone most of the time, and makes the necessary field goals, he will be an upgrade. If not, he won't, and, we missed on a 6th Round Pick, a bet I might make too.

Re: the Owners not putting the amount of money into the Team...not buying that at all. Remember, the new CBA won't allow any Owner to underinvest. All Teams need to spend at least X% of the cap.

hogfan
04-29-2012, 10:44 AM
Then it started getting a little bit wrong for me, the two Arkansas wideouts were not really the kind of wideouts i was thinking we should select, i would rather have selected someone who was projected to play the outside WR-Spot.



Childs is an outside receiver. He never played slot receiver at Arkansas. After saying the Arkansas receivers played in a dink and dunk offense and Childs wasn't an outside receiver, it makes me wonder if you even did real research on them. :think:

Ranger
04-29-2012, 10:53 AM
Childs is an outside receiver. He never played slot receiver at Arkansas. After saying the Arkansas receivers played in a dink and dunk offense and Childs wasn't an outside receiver, it makes me wonder if you even did real research on them. :think:

Are you trying to tell us that a six three receiver didn't play dink-dunk slot for a quarterback with the strongest arm seen in recent years?!

jargomcfargo
04-29-2012, 11:38 AM
Well, maybe not immediate superstar potential, but how many superstars are actually drafted that late in the draft?

Nice breakdown of each pick, but specifically to the 7th round...



Vikings' draft class: Notes and quotes | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/149388675.html)

The more I look at this draft class, the more I like how it fits together with what appears to be the plan to get the ball rolling on the roster again.

Again, maybe not instant stars but I bet both of them get reps this year and both should provide instant help on ST's.

Those two are depth picks.
We are kind of stuck with certain assumptions we can do little to change this year.
We assume Guion can step up and provide what we need with help from Ballard.
I suspect the Vikings will have trouble stopping the run and will end up having to draft a 0 or 3 technique DT next year. Bush will give the Vikings fits unless Brinkley can stop him.

We assume Brinkley can cover the deep middle in the cover two. I suspect that is just not likeley to happen and we will be in nickel during obvious passing plays. Look for us to consider drafting a stud 3 down middle LB next year.

We assume one of these marginal free agent receivers will breakout and become a legitimate threat this year. More likely one or two of the drafted WR will step up.

We assume many players who were injured last year will get healthy and play well this year.

A lot more assumptions exist and add up to a team that will be young and struggling to find itself, yet should show signs of improvement and hope.

skum
04-29-2012, 04:29 PM
Childs is an outside receiver. He never played slot receiver at Arkansas. After saying the Arkansas receivers played in a dink and dunk offense and Childs wasn't an outside receiver, it makes me wonder if you even did real research on them. :think:

My issues is with Greg Childs issues with his knee, most scouting reports say he has lost some speed and won't be able to get behind defenders and be a field stretcher and i guess Wright is a replacement for Harvin when he is not on the field, with Percy and now Simpson the slot reciever spot wasnt a need that needed to be covered..

However on Greg Childs, been reading some more and getting more behind this pick after also looking at was what availible instead i think it was a pretty good pick and i hope they both do well.

So i did not say the Arkansas offense was a dink and dunk offense, im saying that it could be what we are trying to build here and i am not happy about that..

skum
04-29-2012, 09:21 PM
Vikings add 15 rookie free agents | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/29/vikings-add-15-rookie-free-agents/)

"NFL Network’s Mike Mayock pegged Nielsen as sleeper before the draft, suggesting Nielsen could eventually emerge as a starting strong-side linebacker in the league."

bleedpurple
04-30-2012, 09:35 AM
My issues is with Greg Childs issues with his knee, most scouting reports say he has lost some speed and won't be able to get behind defenders and be a field stretcher and i guess Wright is a replacement for Harvin when he is not on the field, with Percy and now Simpson the slot reciever spot wasnt a need that needed to be covered..

However on Greg Childs, been reading some more and getting more behind this pick after also looking at was what availible instead i think it was a pretty good pick and i hope they both do well.

So i did not say the Arkansas offense was a dink and dunk offense, im saying that it could be what we are trying to build here and i am not happy about that..

He's was about the best there was for where we got him... But we waited entirely too long to select a WR.... Plus he doesn't stretch the field... I think he's a poor mans' michael Jenkins... that's not saying a whole lot...

tastywaves
04-30-2012, 10:18 AM
He's was about the best there was for where we got him... But we waited entirely too long to select a WR.... Plus he doesn't stretch the field... I think he's a poor mans' michael Jenkins... that's not saying a whole lot...

Actually, I think that is exactly what he is, providing he comes back from the knee injury.

From NFL.com

Draft Analysis:

Bucky Brooks' take: The Vikings take a flier on a big, athletic pass catcher with the addition of Childs. He possesses the speed to run past defenders on vertical routes and could be a hidden gem if he can continue to move past the knee injury that prematurely ended his junior season.

Johnson14
04-30-2012, 12:25 PM
The draft was ok, started out well but tailed off.

Disappointed we never bought back into the 2nd round to grab a decent wr.

If it were a report card, "could have done better, must try harder".

bleedpurple
04-30-2012, 12:51 PM
The draft was ok, started out well but tailed off.

Disappointed we never bought back into the 2nd round to grab a decent wr.

If it were a report card, "could have done better, must try harder".

if you take away the Khalil pick which was a no-brainer... you get a much different picture... I vote a C for just very average...

12purplepride28
04-30-2012, 01:39 PM
[QUOTE=bleedpurple;1123386]if you take away the Khalil pickQUOTE]

Who?

vikinggreg
04-30-2012, 01:48 PM
if you take away the Khalil pick

Who?

I think he's that Klingon linebacker, its a future time rip pick for the Vikings when they have relocated to the planet Vulcan after LA falls into the Pacific

YouthVikesFan
04-30-2012, 01:50 PM
if you take away the Khalil pick which was a no-brainer... you get a much different picture... I vote a C for just very average...

I disagree, if you take away the TE and K out of all 13 picks i think it was a decent draft. Take them away and trade up for rueben randle in the bottom half on the 2nd i think we would hear alot less bitchin from the fans.

bleedpurple
04-30-2012, 03:03 PM
I disagree, if you take away the TE and K out of all 13 picks i think it was a decent draft. Take them away and trade up for rueben randle in the bottom half on the 2nd i think we would hear alot less bitchin from the fans.

first we have less than 13 picks... and if you take out the FB and K we drafted it looks much different.. but we didn't do that... instead we waited drafted a corner in the 3rd that probably wont start, 2 receivers in the 4th (teamates at that), sandwiched a freakin FB in the 4th round and then went ahead and drafted a freakin kicker and waited a very long time to select a LB...

so the only picks that look promising are the first 2 or 3.. everything else is a crap shoot...

bleedpurple
04-30-2012, 03:05 PM
if you take away the Khalil pickQUOTE]

Who?


I think he's that Klingon linebacker, its a future time rip pick for the Vikings when they have relocated to the planet Vulcan after LA falls into the Pacific


Goon 1 and 2... you know who i was talking about... alteast your jest could have been funny... instead of making lame ass Star Wars/Startrek jokes.. assuming thats what it was...

tarkenton10
04-30-2012, 03:13 PM
He's was about the best there was for where we got him... But we waited entirely too long to select a WR.... Plus he doesn't stretch the field... I think he's a poor mans' michael Jenkins... that's not saying a whole lot...

I think you guys are not giving him enough credit, Childs can stretch the field. Let's look at Hill, the one everyone thought we should take. He is 6' 4" (Childs is 6'3", no biggie) Hill ran a 4.36 in the forty (childs ran a 4.55 I believe but he ran a 4.41 at his pro day) that is not slow there are alot of #1WR in this league that run slower than that. Child's arm length is longer than hill's and he is is also 219 lbs. (about the same size as Hill) His hands are bigger than hills by at least an inch and he comes from a pro style offense so he has run the route tree. Hill was in the option style and basically blocked or ran a nine route. Childs is way more pro ready then Hill and could be a better WR than Hill. If Childs is 100% we got a second round talent in the fourth, I take my hat off to Spielman on this one.

iowa
04-30-2012, 03:17 PM
Seems to be a lot of discontent over the wideouts we drafted.To me there wasn't any surefire blue chip guys in the entire draft.Blackmon is good but lacks a little in size and speed and Floyd doesn't have blazing speed or flawless character.There were several other taller bigger guys that went fairly early, Randle, Quick, Jeffrey but none of them has blazing speed, Hill was fast but only had 49 total catches during his college career.I think the guys we took have just as good of a chance to be successful as these guys picked in front of them, in fact the upside for Childs is probably higher, 4.39 40 and 40in. vertical at his pro day, what's not to like? I'm glad we didn't give up picks to move up! Only time will tell but I'm cautiously optimistic.

bleedpurple
04-30-2012, 03:22 PM
I think he's that Klingon linebacker, its a future time rip pick for the Vikings when they have relocated to the planet Vulcan after LA falls into the Pacific


I think you guys are not giving him enough credit, Childs can stretch the field. Let's look at Hill, the one everyone thought we should take. He is 6' 4" (Childs is 6'3", no biggie) Hill ran a 4.36 in the forty (childs ran a 4.55 I believe but he ran a 4.41 at his pro day) that is not slow there are alot of #1WR in this league that run slower than that. Child's arm length is longer than hill's and he is is also 219 lbs. (about the same size as Hill) His hands are bigger than hills by at least an inch and he comes from a pro style offense so he has run the route tree. Hill was in the option style and basically blocked or ran a nine route. Childs is way more pro ready then Hill and could be a better WR than Hill. If Childs is 100% we got a second round talent in the fourth, I take my hat off to Spielman on this one.

yep... a guy ranked about 20th best at his position... granted coming off a knee injury... If he was a second round talent he would have gone in the 2nd or 3rd latest... not the back of the 4th... and the 3rd option on his own team... with a whopping what?

21 catches for 240 yards and 0 TD's last year... yeah, he's a real burner similar to Steven HIll (rolls eyes)...

bleedpurple
04-30-2012, 03:25 PM
I think he's that Klingon linebacker, its a future time rip pick for the Vikings when they have relocated to the planet Vulcan after LA falls into the Pacific


Seems to be a lot of discontent over the wideouts we drafted.To me there wasn't any surefire blue chip guys in the entire draft.Blackmon is good but lacks a little in size and speed and Floyd doesn't have blazing speed or flawless character.There were several other taller bigger guys that went fairly early, Randle, Quick, Jeffrey but none of them has blazing speed, Hill was fast but only had 49 total catches during his college career.I think the guys we took have just as good of a chance to be successful as these guys picked in front of them, in fact the upside for Childs is probably higher, 4.39 40 and 40in. vertical at his pro day, what's not to like? I'm glad we didn't give up picks to move up! Only time will tell but I'm cautiously optimistic.

that's a good way to look at it... but your cautiously optimistic attitude tells me you probably haven't been a vikings fan long... lol... or you'd be a pessimistic realist... lol

iowa
04-30-2012, 04:21 PM
that's a good way to look at it... but your cautiously optimistic attitude tells me you probably haven't been a vikings fan long... lol... or you'd be a pessimistic realist... lol

I've been a fan since the late sixties, I guess i'm an eternal optimist!! One these years it's gonna' happen!!

CPonderFan
04-30-2012, 07:51 PM
The only thing I learned while reading this thread was that there are ALOT of morons on here! I mean everyone is allowed their opinion, but seriously most of you know absolutely nothing about running a football team. Most of the analysist that have handed out grades gave MN a B or better. I think that if everyone in the NFL ran their teams as narrow minded as most of you then players like Tom brady would never emerge! Seriously the coaching staff has done more research on all the players than you guys could put together in a year. The only picks that really made me question what we were doing is the pick of the TE and the Kicker. But after watching some game film i see the TE is a replacement for Kleinsasser. But even more of a beast. He will be a very nice addition. As far as the kicker goes...how long do you expect Longwell to play football?? dude has a subpar leg the way it is. If this kid comes in and gets a ton of TBs then he is worth every damn penny. If he can kick long FGs then he will be considered one of the steals in the draft! STs is one third of your team, with the Vikings rebuilding STs is probably more like 40-50% of your team!

WRs - Childs has the ability to become a very nice #2. Way better than Jenkins. Wright is going to participate on STs and Slot when Harvin is out. Seriously this is a great pick, it extends Harvins shelf life and if Harvin, who has been injured quite a bit, goes down our offense dowsnt miss a beat (ok but less of a beat).

My biggest knock on our draft...I wanted to see us use a 4th to get a LB. I think we could have used a LB more than a kicker, but most probably werent graded higher than the kicker so thats why they went kicker.

Give these guys a couple of drafts. Dont shitebag them for every little thing. We have alot of holes and they did a great job and we have 2 more picks for next season already! You build a championship team through the draft. The great teasm dont spend money on FAs they draft college players and turn them into NFL players.

CPonderFan
04-30-2012, 07:53 PM
that's a good way to look at it... but your cautiously optimistic attitude tells me you probably haven't been a vikings fan long... lol... or you'd be a pessimistic realist... lol

Childs ran a 4.41 40. Either way not bad for a nig receiver. If that knee holds up we may have a diamond in the rough

CPonderFan
04-30-2012, 07:59 PM
For all you non believers... If you dont want to listen to him answer question put the video on the 5:15 mark and watch this kid run. He is a big boy and after watching this video maybe you wont worry about his knee as much either...

Video detail (http://www.wholehogsports.com/videos/2012/mar/06/5771/)

CPonderFan
04-30-2012, 08:09 PM
Jarious Wright Video:

Ultimate Jarius Wright Highlights (2012 Draft 118th Pick - Minnesota Vikings) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbu883Mm2_c)

CPonderFan
04-30-2012, 08:12 PM
Blair Walsh Highlights:

Blair Walsh 2012 NFL Draft - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO1DfIH_oqA)

iowa
04-30-2012, 08:13 PM
Just lookin' at Walt's pro day results, he has Childs at 4.39 with a 40.5 vertical 10 1/8" hands and a 10'7" broad jump, all around most impressive stats on the board.In comparison Randle had a 31" vertical and 9 1/2" hands.I realize that doesn't make him an instant pro bowler but those are some good qualities in a wideout!

Ranger
04-30-2012, 10:09 PM
Childs ran a 4.41 40. Either way not bad for a nig receiver. If that knee holds up we may have a diamond in the rough

Well, I guess Freud was right.

singersp
05-01-2012, 05:46 AM
first we have less than 13 picks... and if you take out the FB and K we drafted it looks much different.. but we didn't do that... instead we waited drafted a corner in the 3rd that probably wont start, 2 receivers in the 4th (teamates at that), sandwiched a freakin FB in the 4th round and then went ahead and drafted a freakin kicker and waited a very long time to select a LB...

so the only picks that look promising are the first 2 or 3.. everything else is a crap shoot...

We had 13 picks. We just used 3 of them in trade. 1 was used towards Smith & 2 were traded for picks next year.

tarkenton10
05-01-2012, 07:18 AM
yep... a guy ranked about 20th best at his position... granted coming off a knee injury... If he was a second round talent he would have gone in the 2nd or 3rd latest... not the back of the 4th... and the 3rd option on his own team... with a whopping what?

21 catches for 240 yards and 0 TD's last year... yeah, he's a real burner similar to Steven HIll (rolls eyes)...

Roll your eyes all you want but he has the same measurables as Hill. Other than the forty he has better measurables you can believe it or not. Do a little research if you are skeptical and don't trust my stats. And how isn't a 4.39 similar to Hill at 4.36?

He came back and was still not 100% this year, the coaches saw him limping in practice. He wanted to get back into the games, you can't blame him for that. Hill is a one trick pony so far, he has as many question marks as Childs. He only caught 49 passes and WAS THE ONLY WR IN THE GAME FOR GT. He only can run a nine route basically and will take a long time to learn the pro game coming from an option attack. Believe what you want but Childs has as good a chance to succeed in the pros as Hill, maybe even better, at least he comes from a pro style offense and knows the route tree.

tarkenton10
05-01-2012, 07:26 AM
The only thing I learned while reading this thread was that there are ALOT of morons on here! I mean everyone is allowed their opinion, but seriously most of you know absolutely nothing about running a football team. Most of the analysist that have handed out grades gave MN a B or better. I think that if everyone in the NFL ran their teams as narrow minded as most of you then players like Tom brady would never emerge! Seriously the coaching staff has done more research on all the players than you guys could put together in a year. The only picks that really made me question what we were doing is the pick of the TE and the Kicker. But after watching some game film i see the TE is a replacement for Kleinsasser. But even more of a beast. He will be a very nice addition. As far as the kicker goes...how long do you expect Longwell to play football?? dude has a subpar leg the way it is. If this kid comes in and gets a ton of TBs then he is worth every damn penny. If he can kick long FGs then he will be considered one of the steals in the draft! STs is one third of your team, with the Vikings rebuilding STs is probably more like 40-50% of your team!

WRs - Childs has the ability to become a very nice #2. Way better than Jenkins. Wright is going to participate on STs and Slot when Harvin is out. Seriously this is a great pick, it extends Harvins shelf life and if Harvin, who has been injured quite a bit, goes down our offense dowsnt miss a beat (ok but less of a beat).

My biggest knock on our draft...I wanted to see us use a 4th to get a LB. I think we could have used a LB more than a kicker, but most probably werent graded higher than the kicker so thats why they went kicker.

Give these guys a couple of drafts. Dont shitebag them for every little thing. We have alot of holes and they did a great job and we have 2 more picks for next season already! You build a championship team through the draft. The great teasm dont spend money on FAs they draft college players and turn them into NFL players.

You might be peasantly surprised by Cole. He was a tackling machine at NCST and a beast. He reminds me of Ben Leber and could be solid for us. Another lb that may have problems in coverage though. I like the pick and I hope he makes the 53 man roster. Both picks in the seventh round are great picks. They both have potential to rotate in in their respective positions. You can't expect much more than that from a seventh round pick.

jargomcfargo
05-01-2012, 10:33 AM
We had 13 picks. We just used 3 of them in trade. 1 was used towards Smith & 2 were traded for picks next year.
Saving two picks for next year is a good move. Using your early third round pick to move up was the biggest error this year.
Spielman has a tendency to waste a high pick to move up sometimes.
That pick should have been another player worthy of starting.

I'm ok with the draft in general, and was happy we drafted Smith. It's too bad we couldn't have traded a number of later picks to move up.

Despite that, I think this draft improved the team.

bleedpurple
05-01-2012, 11:13 AM
I think he's that Klingon linebacker, its a future time rip pick for the Vikings when they have relocated to the planet Vulcan after LA falls into the Pacific


Blair Walsh Highlights:

Blair Walsh 2012 NFL Draft - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO1DfIH_oqA)

AGAIN, Highlights..... it's supposed to make the kid look good.... bottom line he was 21 of 35 last year and about 50% FG beyond 30 yards...

Kicking the ball into the end zone esp. now that' its five yards closer doesn't make him a quality 6th round pick.. esp. if he can't hit a FG to save his life...

Jarious may be a burner... but he's a harvin Clone... slot WR... we have harvin already on the roster...

People are salty about the draft bc any leeway or credit we wanna give Spielman especially after the last 2 drafts shits the bed when you look at what they did... Reach for players (a'la Ponder) based on need... not talent.. when you are 11-5 or 10-6 it may be excusable... not 3-13 with more holes to fill than a sinking ship... (no pun intended)....

I don't doubt the draft was a decent draft... but aside from the no-brainer pick in Kalil, the draft was very average... with the 3rd overall pick we needed to knock the ball outta the park... we didn't do that.... with an average draft, on a 3-13 team.. your looking at marginal improvement... the coaching we have takes marginal to below marginal....

So yes, a lot of these guys are talented, but I think Spielman out smarts himself by overthinking shit all the time... hence taking a shitty kicker in the 6th round and a FB in the 4th... when arguably we needed a LB more than either position... and not taking a receiver until the late 4th round was a mistake IMO... when the only guy other than Harvin we have is a washed up former first round bust coming off an ACL tear and a pot head WR on a 1 year contract who's gonna miss the first 3 games...

So maybe just maybe, you need to give some of the fans on here a little more credit.... (i said some)...

And analysts giving draft grades out a day after the draft doesnt' mean shit!!.. especially bc they are ANALYSTS... I'd be more inclined to take the word of Bill Polian over a todd mcshay and mel kiper... talking head hacks who are jokes inside real football war rooms...

That's all....

bleedpurple
05-01-2012, 11:22 AM
I think he's that Klingon linebacker, its a future time rip pick for the Vikings when they have relocated to the planet Vulcan after LA falls into the Pacific


Roll your eyes all you want but he has the same measurables as Hill. Other than the forty he has better measurables you can believe it or not. Do a little research if you are skeptical and don't trust my stats. And how isn't a 4.39 similar to Hill at 4.36?

He came back and was still not 100% this year, the coaches saw him limping in practice. He wanted to get back into the games, you can't blame him for that. Hill is a one trick pony so far, he has as many question marks as Childs. He only caught 49 passes and WAS THE ONLY WR IN THE GAME FOR GT. He only can run a nine route basically and will take a long time to learn the pro game coming from an option attack. Believe what you want but Childs has as good a chance to succeed in the pros as Hill, maybe even better, at least he comes from a pro style offense and knows the route tree.

Look at his stats from his senior season.... yep he was banged up.. but he didn't do shit last year... Yes, he has similar measurable to Hill... SO WHAT??

doens't make him the same football player does it?... there is a reason one went in the 2nd and another in the 4th... Lemme ask yu who would you rather have??

GT runs an option offense... maybe he only runs a certain routes, but so did Demarrious Thomas from Denver come from the same offense, he went in the first round and is a pretty good prospect to this point.... So gain... the underwear olympics don't mean anything...I hope Childs succeeds... he very well could... It's better or our team if he does...

But this is the Vikings we are talking about... the Vikings... I'm not gonna hold my breath is all I'm saying..!

tarkenton10
05-02-2012, 09:04 AM
AGAIN, Highlights..... it's supposed to make the kid look good.... bottom line he was 21 of 35 last year and about 50% FG beyond 30 yards...

Kicking the ball into the end zone esp. now that' its five yards closer doesn't make him a quality 6th round pick.. esp. if he can't hit a FG to save his life...

Jarious may be a burner... but he's a harvin Clone... slot WR... we have harvin already on the roster...

People are salty about the draft bc any leeway or credit we wanna give Spielman especially after the last 2 drafts shits the bed when you look at what they did... Reach for players (a'la Ponder) based on need... not talent.. when you are 11-5 or 10-6 it may be excusable... not 3-13 with more holes to fill than a sinking ship... (no pun intended)....

I don't doubt the draft was a decent draft... but aside from the no-brainer pick in Kalil, the draft was very average... with the 3rd overall pick we needed to knock the ball outta the park... we didn't do that.... with an average draft, on a 3-13 team.. your looking at marginal improvement... the coaching we have takes marginal to below marginal....

So yes, a lot of these guys are talented, but I think Spielman out smarts himself by overthinking shit all the time... hence taking a shitty kicker in the 6th round and a FB in the 4th... when arguably we needed a LB more than either position... and not taking a receiver until the late 4th round was a mistake IMO... when the only guy other than Harvin we have is a washed up former first round bust coming off an ACL tear and a pot head WR on a 1 year contract who's gonna miss the first 3 games...

So maybe just maybe, you need to give some of the fans on here a little more credit.... (i said some)...

And analysts giving draft grades out a day after the draft doesnt' mean shit!!.. especially bc they are ANALYSTS... I'd be more inclined to take the word of Bill Polian over a todd mcshay and mel kiper... talking head hacks who are jokes inside real football war rooms...

That's all....

So Mel Kiper and Todd McShay are hacks bu twe are supposed to use your evaluation for our draft, good thinking. Using your logic all on here ar ehacks and aren't even worthy of being able to decide on players so why don't you use a little of your own advice and see what this draft brings, after all we won't know for a couple of years. If we can't count on Kiper or McShay we sure as heck can't count on your expertise.

tarkenton10
05-02-2012, 09:11 AM
Look at his stats from his senior season.... yep he was banged up.. but he didn't do shit last year... Yes, he has similar measurable to Hill... SO WHAT??

doens't make him the same football player does it?... there is a reason one went in the 2nd and another in the 4th... Lemme ask yu who would you rather have??

GT runs an option offense... maybe he only runs a certain routes, but so did Demarrious Thomas from Denver come from the same offense, he went in the first round and is a pretty good prospect to this point.... So gain... the underwear olympics don't mean anything...I hope Childs succeeds... he very well could... It's better or our team if he does...

But this is the Vikings we are talking about... the Vikings... I'm not gonna hold my breath is all I'm saying..!


And all I'm saying is that Hill was projected in the third to fourth round before the combine. So his combine is all about the measurables and Childs had he not had the injury had a second round grade. They flipped flopped based on an injury, yeah you get injured your status falls but I think if he comes back fully healthy is will be a better receiver than Hill. Childs is a more polished receiver who can run crisp routes and get open. We have no film on Hill whether or not he can get open, how well he runs the different routes on the route tree. I think there are way more questions about Hill than Childs.

YouthVikesFan
05-02-2012, 11:25 AM
Look at his stats from his senior season.... yep he was banged up.. but he didn't do shit last year... Yes, he has similar measurable to Hill... SO WHAT??

doens't make him the same football player does it?... there is a reason one went in the 2nd and another in the 4th... Lemme ask yu who would you rather have??

GT runs an option offense... maybe he only runs a certain routes, but so did Demarrious Thomas from Denver come from the same offense, he went in the first round and is a pretty good prospect to this point.... So gain... the underwear olympics don't mean anything...I hope Childs succeeds... he very well could... It's better or our team if he does...

But this is the Vikings we are talking about... the Vikings... I'm not gonna hold my breath is all I'm saying..!


Actually childs was projected to go in the 1st or 2nd if he came out early and didnt get injuried, research people.

And whoever said we traded a early 3rd to move up in the first, it was actually a 4th and it was damn sure worth it.

From what i see and hear, we had one of the best drafts (pending on how they turn out) which i agree. What i also hear is we still may be the worst team in the nfl which could be true. We are rebuilding stop cryin because we missed out on a few players everything cant go your way all the time. Lets just pray spielman got it right in the later rounds this year

midgensa
05-02-2012, 02:32 PM
I, like Skum, really liked the first three rounds and think it got a little weird from there.

I didn't have a huge problem with Walsh like a lot of people, because the front office clearly wants to go with the two kicker approach and he had the biggest leg in the draft. He was also the top-rated kicker on many people's boards and one of only two or three "draftable" kickers on almost everyone's board.

I was confused with the Wright pick in particular as he is pretty much just a not-nearly-as-electric version of Percy Harvin. And the Ellison pick does not make much sense to me because we might as well have grabbed another CB/S and hoped by an "accuracy by volume" approach in the secondary (the more guys you get, the better that some of them pan out).

The Childs pick was not awful to me because I do like his size and think that if he has any chance of coming back from his awful knee injury then he will be a very solid contributor.

I don't mind the Blanton pick as it fits into the "accuracy by volume" approach in the secondary, but I DEFINITELY would have liked to have seen us get another true CB to go along with Robinson.

The last two picks are fliers in any draft anyway so I really do not hate them or like them. Seems that most think the LB will at least be able to contribute on special teams and be an OK backup, which is a solid contribution from a 7th-rounder.

All in all I pretty much go like this:
1st - #4 – Matt Kalil, OT - USC - A+: They really could not have screwed this pick up though. But getting extra picks out of it was nice.
1st - #29 – Harrison Smith, SS - Notre Dame - A: I like using the load of picks we had to get back in and get the guy we wanted. A lock to start from day one and is a coin flip. Could turn out to be a very good player ... and, of course, could turn into a bust. But like the pick and move overall.
3rd - #66 - Josh Robinson, CB - UCF - B: I think it is very likely we were targeting Trumaine Johnson and he went one pick in front of us. But all in all, I like Robinson's speed. With a healthy Winfield and a returning Cook, to go with the signed veterans and this kid, our CB situation should be much improved. Wish we had parted with something to jump three or four picks and secure Johnson, but a solid pick none-the-less.
4th - #118 – Jarius Wright, WR - Arkansas - D: This pick really makes no sense to me in the end. He did not grade that highly and he will have trouble with physical corners I think. He might actually be the odd man out at receiver if Aromashodu and Jenkins earn spots and Childs shows any promise. We could have taken Nick Toon here and I would be much happier. Also could have selected higher rated WRs in Keshawn Martin, Juron Criner or Marvin Jones.
4th - #128 – Rhett Ellison, FB/TE - USC - F: I like the player overall and think he can make in the league doing what he does, but this just seems like a non-need, definitely not an important need, for the team. I think we easily could have taken a safety or corner here to continue the secondary competition. Also could have selected a DT or LB here to actually try to fill those needs.
4th - #134 - Greg Childs, WR - Arkansas - C+: I actually like this high-reward pick. He definitely was a big talent until his injury and then struggled to stay on the field last year. If he is fully healed and doctors think he is ready to go, then this pick could work out very nicely. Like his size and hands. If his speed is there at all, he could easily make the roster. Still had a few other receivers that I like a little better on the board though, and that keeps it from being an A or B pick for me.
5th - #139 – Robert Blanton, CB/S - Notre Dame - C+: Probably would have preferred another true corner of some sort. But do not mind addressing safety at all here. It is the weakest position on our defense. He actually could steal some playing time if he does well in camp.
6th - #175 – Blair Walsh, K - Georgia - C+: Could we have likely gotten him in the 7th? Probably. But I still don't hate this pick. Maybe the Vikings are reassessing their signing of Longwell, and I have no problem with that at all. At worst, this guy can kick it out of the endzone, which can help our often struggling defense.
7th - #210 and #219 – Audie Cole, OLB/ILB - North Carolina State, Trevor Guyton, DE/DT - California - N/A: Don't really grade 7th round picks because it is such a crap shoot. These guys both have a decent shot at being on the squad come Game 1 though ... and that is a solid thing.

All in all, we drafted 10 players and it is quite possible that 8-9 of them make the opening roster, if not all of them. I am not going to complain about that as it is clear we needed a youth movement.

I would give the draft an overall grade of B. Would be an A, except that I think that we got a little murky there with the Wright pick and Ellison pick in a position where we definitely could have gotten some other strong contributors.

tarkenton10
05-03-2012, 09:00 AM
I, like Skum, really liked the first three rounds and think it got a little weird from there.

I didn't have a huge problem with Walsh like a lot of people, because the front office clearly wants to go with the two kicker approach and he had the biggest leg in the draft. He was also the top-rated kicker on many people's boards and one of only two or three "draftable" kickers on almost everyone's board.

I was confused with the Wright pick in particular as he is pretty much just a not-nearly-as-electric version of Percy Harvin. And the Ellison pick does not make much sense to me because we might as well have grabbed another CB/S and hoped by an "accuracy by volume" approach in the secondary (the more guys you get, the better that some of them pan out).

The Childs pick was not awful to me because I do like his size and think that if he has any chance of coming back from his awful knee injury then he will be a very solid contributor.

I don't mind the Blanton pick as it fits into the "accuracy by volume" approach in the secondary, but I DEFINITELY would have liked to have seen us get another true CB to go along with Robinson.

The last two picks are fliers in any draft anyway so I really do not hate them or like them. Seems that most think the LB will at least be able to contribute on special teams and be an OK backup, which is a solid contribution from a 7th-rounder.

All in all I pretty much go like this:
1st - #4 – Matt Kalil, OT - USC - A+: They really could not have screwed this pick up though. But getting extra picks out of it was nice.
1st - #29 – Harrison Smith, SS - Notre Dame - A: I like using the load of picks we had to get back in and get the guy we wanted. A lock to start from day one and is a coin flip. Could turn out to be a very good player ... and, of course, could turn into a bust. But like the pick and move overall.
3rd - #66 - Josh Robinson, CB - UCF - B: I think it is very likely we were targeting Trumaine Johnson and he went one pick in front of us. But all in all, I like Robinson's speed. With a healthy Winfield and a returning Cook, to go with the signed veterans and this kid, our CB situation should be much improved. Wish we had parted with something to jump three or four picks and secure Johnson, but a solid pick none-the-less.
4th - #118 – Jarius Wright, WR - Arkansas - D: This pick really makes no sense to me in the end. He did not grade that highly and he will have trouble with physical corners I think. He might actually be the odd man out at receiver if Aromashodu and Jenkins earn spots and Childs shows any promise. We could have taken Nick Toon here and I would be much happier. Also could have selected higher rated WRs in Keshawn Martin, Juron Criner or Marvin Jones.
4th - #128 – Rhett Ellison, FB/TE - USC - F: I like the player overall and think he can make in the league doing what he does, but this just seems like a non-need, definitely not an important need, for the team. I think we easily could have taken a safety or corner here to continue the secondary competition. Also could have selected a DT or LB here to actually try to fill those needs.
4th - #134 - Greg Childs, WR - Arkansas - C+: I actually like this high-reward pick. He definitely was a big talent until his injury and then struggled to stay on the field last year. If he is fully healed and doctors think he is ready to go, then this pick could work out very nicely. Like his size and hands. If his speed is there at all, he could easily make the roster. Still had a few other receivers that I like a little better on the board though, and that keeps it from being an A or B pick for me.
5th - #139 – Robert Blanton, CB/S - Notre Dame - C+: Probably would have preferred another true corner of some sort. But do not mind addressing safety at all here. It is the weakest position on our defense. He actually could steal some playing time if he does well in camp.
6th - #175 – Blair Walsh, K - Georgia - C+: Could we have likely gotten him in the 7th? Probably. But I still don't hate this pick. Maybe the Vikings are reassessing their signing of Longwell, and I have no problem with that at all. At worst, this guy can kick it out of the endzone, which can help our often struggling defense.
7th - #210 and #219 – Audie Cole, OLB/ILB - North Carolina State, Trevor Guyton, DE/DT - California - N/A: Don't really grade 7th round picks because it is such a crap shoot. These guys both have a decent shot at being on the squad come Game 1 though ... and that is a solid thing.

All in all, we drafted 10 players and it is quite possible that 8-9 of them make the opening roster, if not all of them. I am not going to complain about that as it is clear we needed a youth movement.

I would give the draft an overall grade of B. Would be an A, except that I think that we got a little murky there with the Wright pick and Ellison pick in a position where we definitely could have gotten some other strong contributors.

Great read and agree with most of it, I would have given Wright a C+. Harvin is oft injured and he is a playmaker in space. We won't be so hamstrung when he has a migrane now.

Childs, I would gvie a B+, if he is back from injury he was a steal where we got him. He may, in a couple of years, be our #1.

And I would give a grade to Cole, he is a thumper and a very good athlete. He very well could be our backup at Sam and Mike. He may even be able to supplant Henderson, who I do not like as a starter. I would give him a B, for the pick and where he was drafted by us.

Good read and great analysis!!

tarkenton10
05-03-2012, 12:57 PM
Just thought I would throw out a few tidbits to chew on. I have been reading up on our draft prospects in pro footbal weekly. A fairly reliable source for the draft, here is what I have come up with.

Kalil -Starter- should be a started for ten years and maybe a pro bowler, gotta like it. Easy pick though.

Smith - Starter- End of round one begininning of round two (about where got him) good choice. A starter at the worst position on the team. Really like the pick, makes our back end so much better already.

Robinson - Nickel DB- Round 3-4- (about where he sould have gone)Good pick because of need. May have had a better fit with other players but with the corners, left good pick and will definitely improve our back end when Rogers, Stafford and Cutler come calling. Good pick

Wright- Sl WR - 3-4 - (about where he should have gone)Great pick IMO, just because we know Harvin will miss games. We have so few play makers on our O and when Harvin is gone we are really hurting, we won't miss him that much with Wright. We can also try him at kick returns. Great Pick

Childs- WR - 3-4 rounds- (about where he should have gone) You already know how I feel about Childs, if he is healthy he will be a steal. Great pick

Ellison - H- Back - 5-6 rounds- A reach for this one but we got the #3 Hback in the draft so he is a quality player. Not so good pick

Blanton - CB - 4-5 rounds - I think we will move him to safety but he can play multiple positions. He has the ability but he will need time. Good value pick

Cole - ILB - 4-5 rounds - He is a beast and athletic. Can get lost in coverage but has decent skills. He is a thumper and may be our back up Sam and Mike. Great pick for the 7th round IMO

Guyton - DE- 3-4 rounds - I don't know why he fell he is the # 2 5 tech on the board. just to give you a few comments on him

Strengths-Good innate strength, plays with leverage. Plays with power, great tackler, can play anywhere on the line.

Thickly built, power rusher with raw strength to control the line of scrimmage and anchor VS the run. Is versatile, canplay inside or outside in any scheme.
Weaknesses- Average hand use, loses the ball, minimal closing burst outside the box

Pro football weekly.

I think he is going to make alot of people happy with his play.

So overall, Speilman really only reached with Ellison and he is a good fottball player and can play multiple positions like TE and FB. Allthese guys are very versatile which will only help with schemes and offenses and defenses.

Waht do ya think ?

C Mac D
05-03-2012, 06:03 PM
Cole - ILB - 4-5 rounds - He is a beast and athletic. Can get lost in coverage but has decent skills. He is a thumper and may be our back up Sam and Mike. Great pick for the 7th round IMO

This guy is also a Golden Gloves champion... thought I'd add that tid bit. I think he will be solid in a couple years.

vikinggreg
05-03-2012, 07:44 PM
This guy is also a Golden Gloves champion... thought I'd add that tid bit. I think he will be solid in a couple years.

Cole (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Vikings_pick_at_No_210_North_Carolina_State_linebacker_Audie_Cole042812_042812) and Harrison (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/30/vikings-coaches-fell-in-love-with-harrison-smith-at-the-senior-bowl/) picks had a lot to do with the feedback from the coaching staff and their work at the senior bowl

tarkenton10
05-04-2012, 09:05 AM
Guyton is the guy I am anxious to see, my buddy and I were watching the pick and he said we would really like the pick. The more research I do on this guy the more I like him. He can help with our run D and he can play every position in our scheme, that's value in the 7th round.

Marrdro
05-08-2012, 08:17 AM
Guyton is the guy I am anxious to see, my buddy and I were watching the pick and he said we would really like the pick. The more research I do on this guy the more I like him. He can help with our run D and he can play every position in our scheme, that's value in the 7th round.
Agree. As usual I absolutely am disappointed in what this staff does to fix the NT position when the truth of the matter is, it appears they are moving away from that type of DL play.

I think this kid could be the missing piece in a year or two.

Marrdro
05-08-2012, 08:23 AM
Just thought I would throw out a few tidbits to chew on. I have been reading up on our draft prospects in pro footbal weekly. A fairly reliable source for the draft, here is what I have come up with.

Kalil -Starter- should be a started for ten years and maybe a pro bowler, gotta like it. Easy pick though.

Smith - Starter- End of round one begininning of round two (about where got him) good choice. A starter at the worst position on the team. Really like the pick, makes our back end so much better already.

Robinson - Nickel DB- Round 3-4- (about where he sould have gone)Good pick because of need. May have had a better fit with other players but with the corners, left good pick and will definitely improve our back end when Rogers, Stafford and Cutler come calling. Good pick

Wright- Sl WR - 3-4 - (about where he should have gone)Great pick IMO, just because we know Harvin will miss games. We have so few play makers on our O and when Harvin is gone we are really hurting, we won't miss him that much with Wright. We can also try him at kick returns. Great Pick

Childs- WR - 3-4 rounds- (about where he should have gone) You already know how I feel about Childs, if he is healthy he will be a steal. Great pick

Ellison - H- Back - 5-6 rounds- A reach for this one but we got the #3 Hback in the draft so he is a quality player. Not so good pick

Blanton - CB - 4-5 rounds - I think we will move him to safety but he can play multiple positions. He has the ability but he will need time. Good value pick

Cole - ILB - 4-5 rounds - He is a beast and athletic. Can get lost in coverage but has decent skills. He is a thumper and may be our back up Sam and Mike. Great pick for the 7th round IMO

Guyton - DE- 3-4 rounds - I don't know why he fell he is the # 2 5 tech on the board. just to give you a few comments on him

Strengths-Good innate strength, plays with leverage. Plays with power, great tackler, can play anywhere on the line.

Thickly built, power rusher with raw strength to control the line of scrimmage and anchor VS the run. Is versatile, canplay inside or outside in any scheme.
Weaknesses- Average hand use, loses the ball, minimal closing burst outside the box

Pro football weekly.

I think he is going to make alot of people happy with his play.

So overall, Speilman really only reached with Ellison and he is a good fottball player and can play multiple positions like TE and FB. Allthese guys are very versatile which will only help with schemes and offenses and defenses.

Waht do ya think ?
Great recap. Couple of additional thoughts based on what came out of last weeks workouts....

a. Could have 2 Starters on opening day at S out of this draft.
b. Could have a new returner on opening day that can also help as a rotational guy.
c. Could have a new Starting FB/HB/TE. By all accounts this kid can block like a monster and catches anything that got near him.
d. Kicker might be the opening day starter.....(.....snicker....Will be......)
e. We found a ILB that is a diamond in the rough that gives us a very nice developmental guy behind Jasper who will produce on ST's.
f. We added two WR's that will in one instance give Percy some reps off and can fill in for him if he goes down and a possible "Rice" like possesion guy that also catches anything close.

How can anyone look at that draft class and say it was a bad one?

Marrdro
05-08-2012, 08:28 AM
The only thing I learned while reading this thread was that there are ALOT of morons on here!
We try not to use that type of word on here. A better word is yutz and yes, we have a couple but in the end, what kindof site would it be if everyone agreed with everyone?

Hang around. Its fun to see how those cats opinions will change and how reluctant they will be to acknowledge it my friend.

C Mac D
05-08-2012, 08:32 AM
The only thing I learned while reading this thread was that there are ALOT of morons on here!

"ALOT" isn't a word, it's two words. Anyways, what were you saying about morons?

Marrdro
05-08-2012, 08:36 AM
"ALOT" isn't a word, it's two words. Anyways, what were you saying about morons?
Just did the coffee and monitor thing. Thought I was on here alone. How ya been my friend?

C Mac D
05-08-2012, 08:38 AM
Just did the coffee and monitor thing. Thought I was on here alone. How ya been my friend?

I've been well, besides the minor strokes brought on by Spielman and staff. Just ready for some football.

Did your Bengals make any big offseason moves?

12purplepride28
05-08-2012, 08:45 AM
"ALOT" isn't a word, it's two words. Anyways, what were you saying about morons?

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/14027200.jpg

Marrdro
05-08-2012, 08:51 AM
I've been well, besides the minor strokes brought on by Spielman and staff. Just ready for some football.

Did your Bengals make any big offseason moves?
Its gonna be a Bengals Vikes SB my friend........

They did pretty damn good in the draft. For a team that normally only builds through the draft, it was another good year.

They are in a tough division, but I don't think they are going to be the push over they have been in the past.

Something, by the by, you can say about OUR / MY Vikes especially since they got rid of another EXPUKER. :flame:

tarkenton10
05-08-2012, 08:56 AM
Great recap. Couple of additional thoughts based on what came out of last weeks workouts....

a. Could have 2 Starters on opening day at S out of this draft.
b. Could have a new returner on opening day that can also help as a rotational guy.
c. Could have a new Starting FB/HB/TE. By all accounts this kid can block like a monster and catches anything that got near him.
d. Kicker might be the opening day starter.....(.....snicker....Will be......)
e. We found a ILB that is a diamond in the rough that gives us a very nice developmental guy behind Jasper who will produce on ST's.
f. We added two WR's that will in one instance give Percy some reps off and can fill in for him if he goes down and a possible "Rice" like possesion guy that also catches anything close.

How can anyone look at that draft class and say it was a bad one?

I think this class has so much potential and you hit the nail right on the head when you showed all the starters that could come out of this draft if they flourish in the knowledge of our coaches. Damn, I walked right into that one!!

One correction though, Childs (4.39 on his pro day) has way more speed than Rice and if he comes all the way back from his injury may be our true #1 we have been looking for since Moss left.

Very good post my friend, very good indeed!!! (Marrdroese)

C Mac D
05-08-2012, 09:05 AM
http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/14027200.jpg

Eh... I get what you're saying, but misspelling something so obvious while calling everyone morons... well, that deserves to be called-out.

C Mac D
05-08-2012, 09:11 AM
http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/14027200.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ZoAHo7HAny0/Tye2oiXrZ_I/AAAAAAAADWo/dKF3Rlt5y5I/s1600/Willy+Wonka.jpg

Marrdro
05-08-2012, 09:37 AM
I think this class has so much potential and you hit the nail right on the head when you showed all the starters that could come out of this draft if they flourish in the knowledge of our coaches. Damn, I walked right into that one!!

One correction though, Childs (4.39 on his pro day) has way more speed than Rice and if he comes all the way back from his injury may be our true #1 we have been looking for since Moss left.

Very good post my friend, very good indeed!!! (Marrdroese)
Nice catch on the speed, but I was going to save that for another thread......

Believe it or not, I kindof see a logic to Musgroves madness......

OL better suited to run the ball than pass protect.....

RB. Like it or not, we have two pounders back there. AD for all his speed, is still a pounder. Toby, same same. Almost as fast as AD, and one heck of a hard dude to get on the ground.

Teams will have to load up to stop them. So with that in mind what does he do....

TE. Loads up on them. And not just slow guys who can catch or fast guys who can't block. Nope, he goes out and finds true "in-line" TE's that can not only block for the pounders, but they can slip a block, get in space and catch a ball.

Hmmmmm, got your interest....Whats he doing running or throwing.....

Mix that in with speedy little fast guys like Percy and Wright. You might be able to load up and take away the run, but now you are exposing yourself to trying to stop a quick throw to one of these cats in a seam opened by the S dropping into the box.

Which gets me to Childs. For some reason most ignore the cats speed. Put him on the field, whats he gonna run? 3 route, 4 route, 7 route, 8, route, 9 route.

As much as I've resisted what ole Musgrove is trying to do, I kindof think there is in fact a bit of a scheme evolving that won't be much fun for most to watch, but for the guys who enjoy a good chess match, its going to be very interesting if he can get it all together this year.

Gets me to the last piece,.....Ponder. He has the right guy under center to make it all work.

Accurate (needs to be on those quick slants in traffic), smart (needs to be to read the defense), tough as nails (needs to be cause the QB is gonna take a beating in this scheme), and has a strong enough arm to get it deep when the opportunity presents itself.

By the way, I forgot about new reciever from the Bengals. I absolutely love that pickup. As Ponder said, "I can't over throw him".

What a nice weapon to have when you see the all out blitz coming. Just throw a 8 or a 9 route ball to a spot and let Simpson beat the defender (who is cheating up to stop AD/Toby) to the ball.



Hmmmmmm, again, call me silly but I am seeing something in his madness. Speed on the outside in, with lots of power in the inside. I hope I'm right.

tastywaves
05-08-2012, 11:02 AM
Nice catch on the speed, but I was going to save that for another thread......

Believe it or not, I kindof see a logic to Musgroves madness......

OL better suited to run the ball than pass protect.....

RB. Like it or not, we have two pounders back there. AD for all his speed, is still a pounder. Toby, same same. Almost as fast as AD, and one heck of a hard dude to get on the ground.

.
.
.
.

Hmmmmmm, again, call me silly but I am seeing something in his madness. Speed on the outside in, with lots of power in the inside. I hope I'm right.

So do I.

Have to call BS on the Toby being almost as fast as AD. I think that's a bit of a stretch unless your are predicting AD will lose a lot of speed coming off the knee injury and then I would have to call BS on that. ;)

It's easy to get all giddy over all these new recruits with unlimited potential...at least until we see them play. I will hold back on my enthusiasm a bit until I see how they look in purple on Sunday. Just as easy as it is to see how great the Vikings could be, it's pretty easy to see how bad they could be as well, but good to see the enthusiasm. Best time to have it, cause it should last for at least 4 more months.

tarkenton10
05-08-2012, 11:41 AM
Nice catch on the speed, but I was going to save that for another thread......

Believe it or not, I kindof see a logic to Musgroves madness......

OL better suited to run the ball than pass protect.....

RB. Like it or not, we have two pounders back there. AD for all his speed, is still a pounder. Toby, same same. Almost as fast as AD, and one heck of a hard dude to get on the ground.

Teams will have to load up to stop them. So with that in mind what does he do....

TE. Loads up on them. And not just slow guys who can catch or fast guys who can't block. Nope, he goes out and finds true "in-line" TE's that can not only block for the pounders, but they can slip a block, get in space and catch a ball.

Hmmmmm, got your interest....Whats he doing running or throwing.....

Mix that in with speedy little fast guys like Percy and Wright. You might be able to load up and take away the run, but now you are exposing yourself to trying to stop a quick throw to one of these cats in a seam opened by the S dropping into the box.

Which gets me to Childs. For some reason most ignore the cats speed. Put him on the field, whats he gonna run? 3 route, 4 route, 7 route, 8, route, 9 route.

As much as I've resisted what ole Musgrove is trying to do, I kindof think there is in fact a bit of a scheme evolving that won't be much fun for most to watch, but for the guys who enjoy a good chess match, its going to be very interesting if he can get it all together this year.

Gets me to the last piece,.....Ponder. He has the right guy under center to make it all work.

Accurate (needs to be on those quick slants in traffic), smart (needs to be to read the defense), tough as nails (needs to be cause the QB is gonna take a beating in this scheme), and has a strong enough arm to get it deep when the opportunity presents itself.

By the way, I forgot about new reciever from the Bengals. I absolutely love that pickup. As Ponder said, "I can't over throw him".

What a nice weapon to have when you see the all out blitz coming. Just throw a 8 or a 9 route ball to a spot and let Simpson beat the defender (who is cheating up to stop AD/Toby) to the ball.



Hmmmmmm, again, call me silly but I am seeing something in his madness. Speed on the outside in, with lots of power in the inside. I hope I'm right.

I like the way you think. If he (Musgrove) can call a game it will be hard to figure out if we are going to run or pass. The TEs can block or slip out just like you said and who is going to cover Harvin when you have speed on the outside that demands a safety over the top.

Good analysis my friend!! You are moving up on my spreadsheets!! ;D

12purplepride28
05-08-2012, 02:08 PM
As to Ponder saying that he can't overthrow Simpson, I'm not sure if that should make me happy for his speed or bummed because of Ponder's (lack of) arm strength.

C Mac D
05-08-2012, 02:17 PM
As to Ponder saying that he can't overthrow Simpson, I'm not sure if that should make me happy for his speed or bummed because of Ponder's (lack of) arm strength.

I wouldn't worry about it, Simpson has the ability to get incredibly high.

tastywaves
05-08-2012, 02:18 PM
As to Ponder saying that he can't overthrow Simpson, I'm not sure if that should make me happy for his speed or bummed because of Ponder's (lack of) arm strength.

I was wondering who would jump on that one first.

12purplepride28
05-08-2012, 02:41 PM
Maybe someone can help me out with this, but it would seem that arm strength is only limited by how much you work out. So wouldn't arm strength be the least of concerns with a QB? Just get him in the weight room more and focus on his arms. Is it more than that?

12purplepride28
05-08-2012, 02:46 PM
I wouldn't worry about it, Simpson has the ability to get incredibly high.

http://www.mylinuxisp.com/~blawrence/i-see-what-you-did-there2.jpg

midgensa
05-08-2012, 08:45 PM
I don't know why ... but it is definitely more than that.

Otherwise you would see a bunch of NFL quarterbacks with much huger throwing arms than their other arm ... and you would never see a pitcher like Tim Lincecum throwing 90+ miles an hour.

After years of playing baseball (all the way through the collegiate level) I can say this about arm strength in that sport (which is similar to football I would guess) ... some people have it some people don't. No real reason why or how. You can teach mechanics, train the muscles, grow the muscles ... doesn't matter for most ... they either throw hard as fuck or don't.

Obviously, arm injuries can play a big role in lost velocity, especially the shoulder, but in general, I don't think working out does anything for the arm strength.

Ranger
05-08-2012, 10:36 PM
I don't know why ... but it is definitely more than that.

Otherwise you would see a bunch of NFL quarterbacks with much huger throwing arms than their other arm ... and you would never see a pitcher like Tim Lincecum throwing 90+ miles an hour.

After years of playing baseball (all the way through the collegiate level) I can say this about arm strength in that sport (which is similar to football I would guess) ... some people have it some people don't. No real reason why or how. You can teach mechanics, train the muscles, grow the muscles ... doesn't matter for most ... they either throw hard as fuck or don't.

Obviously, arm injuries can play a big role in lost velocity, especially the shoulder, but in general, I don't think working out does anything for the arm strength.

You can do some things to increase arm strength, or throwing power. Drew Brees did a lot of trunk exercises to strengthen all the muscles used for tossing, and it worked. He'll never be Elway or Favre, but his arm is definitely adequate.

Marrdro
05-09-2012, 05:03 AM
So do I.

Have to call BS on the Toby being almost as fast as AD. I think that's a bit of a stretch unless your are predicting AD will lose a lot of speed coming off the knee injury and then I would have to call BS on that. ;)

It's easy to get all giddy over all these new recruits with unlimited potential...at least until we see them play. I will hold back on my enthusiasm a bit until I see how they look in purple on Sunday. Just as easy as it is to see how great the Vikings could be, it's pretty easy to see how bad they could be as well, but good to see the enthusiasm. Best time to have it, cause it should last for at least 4 more months.
I've had this discussion on here several times with our good friend bleed.....

AD

4.4 Time 4.37. Low 4.62 High
Toby

4.5 Time 4.47. Low 4.42 High
*Adrian Peterson | Oklahoma, RB : 2007 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=58020&draftyear=2007&genpos=)

As to my optimism, you been around here long enough to know that in Marrdro's mind, this time of year, hope springs eternal.

Besides, the talent is there, no one can doubt that especially if you look at the kids we took and how many other teams had them in for a visit/tryout.

Its the ability of the staff to take them to the next level that has me concerned. Unlike a few on here, I don't think these kids just become NFL players because they hang around a few vets. If these kids don't hit their potential I will plut alot more blame on the coaches than I will the kids or the FO pukes.

Marrdro
05-09-2012, 05:08 AM
I like the way you think. If he (Musgrove) can call a game it will be hard to figure out if we are going to run or pass. The TEs can block or slip out just like you said and who is going to cover Harvin when you have speed on the outside that demands a safety over the top.

Good analysis my friend!! You are moving up on my spreadsheets!! ;D
There in lies the rub my friend, call he call a game. So far I've only seen glimpses of that ability and I haven't seen a total game were he didn't decide to try to go into "Trick" mode vice sticking with what was working.

Nothing more frustrating to see the team moving the ball only to see him switch to something like that damn "Blazer" thing or to see him throw on 3rd and short after the RB's just got you there.

On a side note, even though I still doubt Leslie and the rest of his staff, I'm thinking that last year had some roadblocks that they couldn't over come, even though we saw other staffs do it.

I'm kindof hoping that Leslie is the kindof coach that needs alot of time, which he didn't have last year.

Marrdro
05-09-2012, 05:22 AM
You can do some things to increase arm strength, or throwing power. Drew Brees did a lot of trunk exercises to strengthen all the muscles used for tossing, and it worked. He'll never be Elway or Favre, but his arm is definitely adequate.
Exactly, arm strength isn't about the arm, its about the mechanics.

On a side note, everyone knows that the scheme we run doesn't depend on arm strength (which is why I ponder why Singer keeps pining on it) but rather timing and know when to put the ball to a spot the WR is GOING to be rather than to a spot the WR IS AT NOW.

Very few people understand that Cook played the season with a injury to his arm which, by the way, really limited his arm strength....

(Bleacher report warning) - Actually a pretty good article that has the video in it were Walsh (later in his years) was talking about the QB and the significance in the drops and his pupil was a older (weaker armed) Joe Montana.


Cook would tear his rotator cuff when he was brought down by a Chiefs defender. Despite playing through it the remainder of the season in which he would go on to lead the league in passing at a mind-numbing 9.4 yards per attempt (http://www.nfl.com/player/gregcook/2511915/careerstats) and an astronomical 17.5 yards per completion (http://static.espn.go.com/nfl/s/westcoast/history.html), he would never be the same—nor would Walsh's offense.

Football 101: Breaking Down the West Coast Offense | Bleacher Report (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1087386-football-101-breaking-down-the-west-coast-offense)

And yet, because of the YAC, he had pretty crazy numbers because he put the ball in the right spot (before the receiver got there) so that the receiver ran into the ball at full stride not because had a cannon for a arm.

Marrdro
05-09-2012, 05:24 AM
I was wondering who would jump on that one first.
I was wondering why out of all that I typed, that is what he jumped on......LOL.

Marrdro
05-09-2012, 05:24 AM
I wouldn't worry about it, Simpson has the ability to get incredibly high.
Well played my friend.

Purple Floyd
05-09-2012, 07:47 AM
Nice catch on the speed, but I was going to save that for another thread......

Believe it or not, I kindof see a logic to Musgroves madness......

OL better suited to run the ball than pass protect.....


Then why did they burn the 4 pick on an OT who is good in pass protection but not near as good in the run? They could have traded back much farther and got a better run blocking LT or even used Love.

Purple Floyd
05-09-2012, 07:48 AM
Well played my friend.

Add in Harvin and we can call our WR group the "High flyers". Maybe bring in Jim Brunzell and Greg Gagne for a promo.

tastywaves
05-09-2012, 10:07 AM
I've had this discussion on here several times with our good friend bleed.....

AD

Toby

*Adrian Peterson*|*Oklahoma,*RB*:*2007 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile (http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=58020&draftyear=2007&genpos=)

As to my optimism, you been around here long enough to know that in Marrdro's mind, this time of year, hope springs eternal.

Besides, the talent is there, no one can doubt that especially if you look at the kids we took and how many other teams had them in for a visit/tryout.

Its the ability of the staff to take them to the next level that has me concerned. Unlike a few on here, I don't think these kids just become NFL players because they hang around a few vets. If these kids don't hit their potential I will plut alot more blame on the coaches than I will the kids or the FO pukes.

you had a little typo. AD's low was 4.42 and Toby's was 4.62. You can try and convince yourself that these guys have similar speed, but you must be staring at the lineman's asses when these guys are in the game, because it isn't even close. Toby is average to below average speed of an NFL RB, AD is above average. Toby doesn't run by or around anyone.

If you just want to play with the combine numbers, then think of it this way, AD's 40 time varied from 4.37 to 4.42. That's pretty consistent and shows his speed is fairly natural for him. Toby varied from 4.47 to 4.62. I'm sure you equate that to Toby ran a 4.47 and AD ran a 4.42, therefore, ergo, they are essentially the same.

Toby does not have the burst of AD and he doesn't have the straight line speed that AD does, he is not blowing by any defensive backs in this league. He is a good north to south runner, beats up on opponents, and is a decent RB, but nothing special.

tarkenton10
05-09-2012, 12:38 PM
you had a little typo. AD's low was 4.42 and Toby's was 4.62. You can try and convince yourself that these guys have similar speed, but you must be staring at the lineman's asses when these guys are in the game, because it isn't even close. Toby is average to below average speed of an NFL RB, AD is above average. Toby doesn't run by or around anyone.

Even if Toby ran a

If you just want to play with the combine numbers, then think of it this way, AD's 40 time varied from 4.37 to 4.42. That's pretty consistent and shows his speed is fairly natural for him. Toby varied from 4.47 to 4.62. I'm sure you equate that to Toby ran a 4.47 and AD ran a 4.42, therefore, ergo, they are essentially the same.

Toby does not have the burst of AD and he doesn't have the straight line speed that AD does, he is not blowing by any defensive backs in this league. He is a good north to south runner, beats up on opponents, and is a decent RB, but nothing special.

Even if Toby ran a 4.37 he would not be the same back as AD. AD does try to outrun people and has more cutting ability thna Toby. Toby fast or slow is a wrecking ball who looks for contact. I think he would run the same way wether he had AD's speed or not.

tastywaves
05-09-2012, 12:48 PM
Even if Toby ran a 4.37 he would not be the same back as AD. AD does try to outrun people and has more cutting ability thna Toby. Toby fast or slow is a wrecking ball who looks for contact. I think he would run the same way wether he had AD's speed or not.

When I think of Toby's running style, I think of Juggernaut. Once the guy gets a head of steam up, he can go through a lot of contact, but not a lot of flash or pizzaz.

Marrdro
05-10-2012, 07:41 AM
Even if Toby ran a 4.37 he would not be the same back as AD. AD does try to outrun people and has more cutting ability thna Toby. Toby fast or slow is a wrecking ball who looks for contact. I think he would run the same way wether he had AD's speed or not.
I never said they were the same back. The are in truth, complete opposites. All I said was they were pretty close to the same speed time wise.

Take a look at a few of Toby's runs last year. He isn't gonna break em like AD did, but he did break a few. You don't do that at this level unless you have a little giddy up.

Marrdro
05-10-2012, 07:42 AM
When I think of Toby's running style, I think of Juggernaut. Once the guy gets a head of steam up, he can go through a lot of contact, but not a lot of flash or pizzaz.
Again, nothing said about flash or pizzaz (good assesment by the way).

Marrdro
05-10-2012, 07:54 AM
you had a little typo. AD's low was 4.42 and Toby's was 4.62. You can try and convince yourself that these guys have similar speed, but you must be staring at the lineman's asses when these guys are in the game, because it isn't even close. Toby is average to below average speed of an NFL RB, AD is above average. Toby doesn't run by or around anyone.

If you just want to play with the combine numbers, then think of it this way, AD's 40 time varied from 4.37 to 4.42. That's pretty consistent and shows his speed is fairly natural for him. Toby varied from 4.47 to 4.62. I'm sure you equate that to Toby ran a 4.47 and AD ran a 4.42, therefore, ergo, they are essentially the same.

Toby does not have the burst of AD and he doesn't have the straight line speed that AD does, he is not blowing by any defensive backs in this league. He is a good north to south runner, beats up on opponents, and is a decent RB, but nothing special.
How about this, take a look at the runners that came out this year and last year. Toby is right up there with them as well all the while carrying one hell of a load.

Play with the numbers all you want and mix in stuff (I never mentioned) about busts, pizzaz, etc. but it still comes down to Toby is alot faster that alot of you want to accept.

A avg of close to 5.0 yards a carry isn't achieved by getting 5 yards a carry my friend. It is achieved by breaking a few. Show me another back (other than AD of course) that can work the middle, get to the edge and catch the ball like Toby can.

Is AD a bit more fun to watch? Sure, but damned if I don't like watching Toby out juke a cat on one play and then run through two of them the next and then outrun a guy on the next like he did on that 67 yarder he broke last year.

Toby Gerhart Highlights - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs_w82IFzdQ)

One last time for possible penetration (....snicker.....) he isn't AD, but he sure isn't the slow footed FB like oaf you guys make him out to be.

Marrdro
05-10-2012, 07:59 AM
Then why did they burn the 4 pick on an OT who is good in pass protection but not near as good in the run? They could have traded back much farther and got a better run blocking LT or even used Love.
I think you have the scouting report flipflopped on Kalil.

One of his weaknesses is against the bull rush but his ability to get out in space and eat up defenders against the run was his strong point.




Mayock on USC LT Matt Kalil: “Wonderfully gifted. Great feet, long arms, fits athleticism bill for an All-Pro left tackle.” Lacks “core strength.”

Z-Report Says: To me, Kalil is definitely the 2nd best prospect int his draft based on ability, high ceiling and high floor. He runs with the fluid hips of a big tight end which allows him to get to the second and third levels with ease. While Mayock thinks he lacks core strength, I believe he has enough to still be elite and I really like his punch.


Mike Mayock gives his opinions on draft prospects & I chime in with mine | The Z Report | a Chron.com blog (http://blog.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2012/02/mike-mayock-gives-his-opinions-on-draft-prospects-i-chime-in-with-mine/)


Pros--Extremely talented kid as a left tackle prospect…natural left tackle and has good feet…powerful in the running game…good family blood line…probably the most talented player between him and his brother (Ryan, C, Panthers)….very long arms…good height…gets off the snap fast…good use of hands…high motor…durable
Cons--Sometimes plays a little high, not an elite level athlete…been the top of his class for a couple of years… needs to add more bulk to his frame…needs to play stronger and while a natural knee bender, not a great technician at this point will have to improve on that


2012 NFL Draft: Minnesota Vikings Select Matt Kalil, OT, USC Live Draft Grade - NFL Mocks - 2013 NFL Mock Draft, Fantasy Football, NFL News, and NFL Mock Draft Databases (http://nflmocks.com/2012/04/26/2012-nfl-draft-minnesota-vikings-select-matt-kalil-ot-usc-live-draft-grade/)

In the end, right now he is probably a better run blocker than he is a pass blocker.

tastywaves
05-11-2012, 04:12 PM
How about this, take a look at the runners that came out this year and last year. Toby is right up there with them as well all the while carrying one hell of a load.

Play with the numbers all you want and mix in stuff (I never mentioned) about busts, pizzaz, etc. but it still comes down to Toby is alot faster that alot of you want to accept.

A avg of close to 5.0 yards a carry isn't achieved by getting 5 yards a carry my friend. It is achieved by breaking a few. Show me another back (other than AD of course) that can work the middle, get to the edge and catch the ball like Toby can.

Is AD a bit more fun to watch? Sure, but damned if I don't like watching Toby out juke a cat on one play and then run through two of them the next and then outrun a guy on the next like he did on that 67 yarder he broke last year.

Toby Gerhart Highlights - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs_w82IFzdQ)

One last time for possible penetration (....snicker.....) he isn't AD, but he sure isn't the slow footed FB like oaf you guys make him out to be.

Not a slow footed oaf, but not "almost as fast" as AD either. Just average in the speed category, which suits him fine.

Your highlight video is a good example of Toby's strengths. Running through people and making them miss tackles. This does have a lot of similarities with AD. However, it does not show any break away runs. The 67 yarder you mention was not in that video.

Here it is: Gerhart's 67 yard run (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8255e9f0/Gerhart-67-yard-sprint)

He does a good job of outrunning the LB, but notice the CB that catches him from behind. That CB, Josh Wilson for the Redskins had similar 40 times to AD. This video gives a good view of the difference in speed between Toby and AD and how it translates on the field.

kevoncox
05-11-2012, 10:16 PM
Iw atched both videos and i still feel the same way; he's a modern day fullback. Dead and gone are the guys like Richardson and Mack Strong. Instead we have the Brian Lenoards, Jacob Hesters and Mike Tolberts. They are big down hill runners, used to pound the ball but are not the type of fast Rbs, big backs coming out of college. The spread is killing the FB.

Marrdro
05-12-2012, 05:40 AM
Not a slow footed oaf, but not "almost as fast" as AD either. Just average in the speed category, which suits him fine.

Your highlight video is a good example of Toby's strengths. Running through people and making them miss tackles. This does have a lot of similarities with AD. However, it does not show any break away runs. The 67 yarder you mention was not in that video.

Here it is: Gerhart's 67 yard run (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8255e9f0/Gerhart-67-yard-sprint)

He does a good job of outrunning the LB, but notice the CB that catches him from behind. That CB, Josh Wilson for the Redskins had similar 40 times to AD. This video gives a good view of the difference in speed between Toby and AD and how it translates on the field.
Again, not saying he is a CJ, AD or a Tate kindof guy. But he can (and does several times in teh vid) get to the edge nicely and can outrun people.

Quick question, how many teams have a better RB than him right now? 5, maybe 6? I bet ole Toby here would start for atleast 15 teams, possibly 18 or 20 and would get alot more reps on about 5 more than he does here because we have AD.

Marrdro
05-12-2012, 05:50 AM
Iw atched both videos and i still feel the same way; he's a modern day fullback. Dead and gone are the guys like Richardson and Mack Strong. Instead we have the Brian Lenoards, Jacob Hesters and Mike Tolberts. They are big down hill runners, used to pound the ball but are not the type of fast Rbs, big backs coming out of college. The spread is killing the FB.
FB?

Bigger, stronger AND faster that any FB my friend.

On a side note, so much love for Tony around here. Kindof odd you, above all people, would lump him in with the likes of Mack. If that cat would have played on the east coast, well. You know were I'm going with that.

On a side note, I agree with your point about the FB position being dead. Been saying it for years, but it is interesting that the O-coord drafted a FB/TE/HB kindof cat this year. From what I've heard coming out of the first camp, he was a "eye opener".

Notes From Rookie Camp: All Hail Rhett Ellison | May (http://www.purplejesusdiaries.com/2012-articles/may/notes-from-rookie-camp-all-hail-rhett-ellison.html)

kevoncox
05-12-2012, 07:05 AM
FB?

Bigger, stronger AND faster that any FB my friend.

On a side note, so much love for Tony around here. Kindof odd you, above all people, would lump him in with the likes of Mack. If that cat would have played on the east coast, well. You know were I'm going with that.

On a side note, I agree with your point about the FB position being dead. Been saying it for years, but it is interesting that the O-coord drafted a FB/TE/HB kindof cat this year. From what I've heard coming out of the first camp, he was a "eye opener".

Notes From Rookie Camp: All Hail Rhett Ellison | May (http://www.purplejesusdiaries.com/2012-articles/may/notes-from-rookie-camp-all-hail-rhett-ellison.html)

I wouldn't say he is faster than the Tolberts, Hesters and McClains would you?
Yeah, Mack Strong was a hell of a football player. He should teach clinics on opening holes and wiping out backers. He imposed his will on defenses and I wager made a couple of Backers hate blitzing.

Purple Floyd
05-12-2012, 10:11 AM
Quick question, how many teams have a better RB than him right now? 5, maybe 6? I bet ole Toby here would start for atleast 15 teams, possibly 18 or 20 and would get alot more reps on about 5 more than he does here because we have AD.

Lol

that is as big of a reach as you saying TJ would start on half the teams in the NFL and Ryan Cook would be a starter on half of the NFL OL's.

I am going to simply this and name 10 RB's and you give me the 5 you think that Toby would take a roster spot from:

1 Adrian foster
2 Adrian Peterson
3 Frank Gore
4 Jamaal Charles
5 Matt Forte
6 Jones drew
7 Ray Rice
8 Chris Johnson
9 Steven Jackson
10 Michael Turner

And i will throw in

10b Darren McFadden
10c Ryan Matthews

Just to see if he can get into the top 13 which I would doubt.

Marrdro
05-12-2012, 08:19 PM
Lol

that is as big of a reach as you saying TJ would start on half the teams in the NFL and Ryan Cook would be a starter on half of the NFL OL's.

I am going to simply this and name 10 RB's and you give me the 5 you think that Toby would take a roster spot from:

1 Adrian foster
2 Adrian Peterson
3 Frank Gore
4 Jamaal Charles
5 Matt Forte
6 Jones drew
7 Ray Rice
8 Chris Johnson
9 Steven Jackson
10 Michael Turner

And i will throw in

10b Darren McFadden
10c Ryan Matthews

Just to see if he can get into the top 13 which I would doubt.

1 Adrian foster - Give you that one.
2 Adrian Peterson - Give you that one, but you do realize Toby will be starting for us.
3 Frank Gore - Almost done. Lets see how much he has left this year especially after the cat they drafted.
4 Jamaal Charles - What? Did he even play last year?
5 Matt Forte - Give you that one. Wonder why the Bores don't agree.
6 Jones drew - Give you that one.
7 Ray Rice - Give you that one.
8 Chris Johnson - Not anymore. Teams have figured him out. He will continue to slide like he did last year. Still will have the big play every now and then but won't be a consistent threat running.
9 Steven Jackson - Done.
10 Michael Turner - Give you that one, but he had around 300 carries again last year. My guess, he might be done as well or you will start to see production slipping. Lombardi said something about them being the second worst at rushing attempts that went for negative yardage and Turner only had 1 game of over 75 yards after week 11.

10b Darren McFadden Whew, did he even crack a grand this year?
10c Ryan Matthews I think he did, but just barely.

Not counting AD, how many is that? Foster/Forte/Drew/Rice and even if I do give you Turner, thats only 5.

12purplepride28
05-13-2012, 10:53 AM
1 Adrian foster - Give you that one.
2 Adrian Peterson - Give you that one, but you do realize Toby will be starting for us.
3 Frank Gore - Almost done. Lets see how much he has left this year especially after the cat they drafted.
4 Jamaal Charles - What? Did he even play last year?
5 Matt Forte - Give you that one. Wonder why the Bores don't agree.
6 Jones drew - Give you that one.
7 Ray Rice - Give you that one.
8 Chris Johnson - Not anymore. Teams have figured him out. He will continue to slide like he did last year. Still will have the big play every now and then but won't be a consistent threat running.
9 Steven Jackson - Done.
10 Michael Turner - Give you that one, but he had around 300 carries again last year. My guess, he might be done as well or you will start to see production slipping. Lombardi said something about them being the second worst at rushing attempts that went for negative yardage and Turner only had 1 game of over 75 yards after week 11.

10b Darren McFadden Whew, did he even crack a grand this year?
10c Ryan Matthews I think he did, but just barely.

Not counting AD, how many is that? Foster/Forte/Drew/Rice and even if I do give you Turner, thats only 5.

Stick to talking about B gaps, WR routes, and OL assignments marr. Anyone with a brain could see that Toby wouldn't start on any of those teams.

You honestly think that Toby would start ahead of Chris Johnson? LOL. I hate the guy, but he started getting it together last year. You can't "figure out" a player and make him useless. He was still a top 10 rb last year.

Frank Gore is the heart of that offense, you think Toby would go start there, especially with Brandon Jacobs and Lamichael James backing him up?

And good lord, just because Jamaal Charles was injured last year, you think Toby would start ahead of him? Jamaal Charles was in contention for being the best RB in the league before he tore his ACL and now our backup RB would go start ahead of him? Also, Peyton Hillis is over there in KC and he's better than Toby if he get's his head on straight.

Steven Jackson isn't done and he is still the unquestioned starter. He's getting old, but not so old that Toby would start ahead of him. Why don't you go to a Rams forum and ask them if they think that Toby would start ahead of Jackson.

Mcfadden had injury problems but he was easily a top 10 top 15 RB last year. Then he was hurt and Michael Bush played in his stead and I don't think Toby would start ahead of either of them.

Ryan Mathews is a 3rd year back and really started to come on last year. He's the future of that franchise. Gerhart isn't doing anything there.

He also wouldn't start ahead of Deangelo Williams/Jonathon Stewart, LeSean McCoy, Trent Richardson, Willis McGahee, Demarco Murray (guy showed a TON of potential and ability last year), and Reggie Bush (showed he can be a #1 back last year), LeGarrete Blount, and Marshawn Lynch.

Places he could compete are CIN, NE, maybe NO but Sproles in the perfect back for that situation, Indianapolis, possibly ARI but Beanie Wells is showing he can be a force so who knows, GB, PIT if Mendenhall keeps getting injured and Gerhart is a nice back for that system, Washington even though he'd split with Helu, and DET if their two starting RBs keep getting hurt/busted for ganja.

Look, Gerhart isn't bad and I like him on our team, but he's nowhere near as good as you think he is.

Purple Floyd
05-13-2012, 02:43 PM
1 Adrian foster - Give you that one.
2 Adrian Peterson - Give you that one, but you do realize Toby will be starting for us.
3 Frank Gore - Almost done. Lets see how much he has left this year especially after the cat they drafted.
4 Jamaal Charles - What? Did he even play last year?
5 Matt Forte - Give you that one. Wonder why the Bores don't agree.
6 Jones drew - Give you that one.
7 Ray Rice - Give you that one.
8 Chris Johnson - Not anymore. Teams have figured him out. He will continue to slide like he did last year. Still will have the big play every now and then but won't be a consistent threat running.
9 Steven Jackson - Done.
10 Michael Turner - Give you that one, but he had around 300 carries again last year. My guess, he might be done as well or you will start to see production slipping. Lombardi said something about them being the second worst at rushing attempts that went for negative yardage and Turner only had 1 game of over 75 yards after week 11.

10b Darren McFadden Whew, did he even crack a grand this year?
10c Ryan Matthews I think he did, but just barely.

Not counting AD, how many is that? Foster/Forte/Drew/Rice and even if I do give you Turner, thats only 5.

Ok. You have just lost any shred of credibility that may have remained.
moving on.

i_bleed_purple
05-13-2012, 05:45 PM
This is easier, lets count teams Gerhart WOULD be a starter on against their current starter (assuming they are healthy to start the season)

New England
Cincy
Indy
Washington
Lions
Tampa
Arizona


Please, name me ONE other team that actually has a starter that Gerhart would start over. One.

He is not a starting calibre back. He is an average backup at best. Not a bad player to have, but by no means is he a difference maker.

mountainviking
05-14-2012, 09:48 AM
Easy, Green Bay. His versatility and power running would be a great fit for a pass-first team. He could also likely provide an upgrade to some early pick/under achievers like Greene with the Jets or Mathews of the Chargers and was more consistent than the Titans or Giants RBs, who believe it or not, finished 31st and 32nd in rushing yards/game last year!

Furthermore, Toby averaged 4.9 yards/carry last season (while constantly running into 8 & 9 man fronts) which was as good as or better than all but 3 TEAM's average per rush!!

NFL Stats: by Team Category (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=RUSHING_AVERAGE_YARDS&tabSeq=2&season=2011&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=true)

True, Peterson is way more of a threat to go the distance, but as a late game, power running/clock eating dominator, there's not many out there that are better.

kevoncox
05-14-2012, 11:17 AM
Easy, Green Bay. His versatility and power running would be a great fit for a pass-first team. He could also likely provide an upgrade to some early pick/under achievers like Greene with the Jets or Mathews of the Chargers and was more consistent than the Titans or Giants RBs, who believe it or not, finished 31st and 32nd in rushing yards/game last year!

Furthermore, Toby averaged 4.9 yards/carry last season (while constantly running into 8 & 9 man fronts) which was as good as or better than all but 3 TEAM's average per rush!!

NFL Stats: by Team Category (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&offensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=RUSHING_AVERAGE_YARDS&tabSeq=2&season=2011&role=TM&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&qualified=true)

True, Peterson is way more of a threat to go the distance, but as a late game, power running/clock eating dominator, there's not many out there that are better.

You are drinking the KoolAid.
Gerhart would not start over 3 of the teams you named. Bradshaw is a superior back to Gerhert.
Everyone points to his 5.0 yards a carry...ha anyone taking the time to look at how he got 5.0 yards a carry.
2 for 18? 2 for 12? 3 for 36? These are his full game stats. I won't look past the washington game where he average 9.0 yards a carry.
However, he is an average back. He would not start over Greene, Bradshaw or Chris Johnson. He might split reps with Matthews.

Braddock
05-14-2012, 01:26 PM
You are drinking the KoolAid.
Gerhart would not start over 3 of the teams you named. Bradshaw is a superior back to Gerhert.
Everyone points to his 5.0 yards a carry...ha anyone taking the time to look at how he got 5.0 yards a carry.
2 for 18? 2 for 12? 3 for 36? These are his full game stats. I won't look past the washington game where he average 9.0 yards a carry.
However, he is an average back. He would not start over Greene, Bradshaw or Chris Johnson. He might split reps with Matthews.

In the NFL, it's easier to go 2 for 1, 2 for -5, 3 for 10. Don't just wipe away the fact he's gaining significant yards on a team with a widely known passing problem. Super Star, no, but I wouldn't want to play against him.

Braddock
05-14-2012, 01:30 PM
This is easier, lets count teams Gerhart WOULD be a starter on against their current starter (assuming they are healthy to start the season)

New England
Cincy
Indy
Washington
Lions
Tampa
Arizona


Please, name me ONE other team that actually has a starter that Gerhart would start over. One.

He is not a starting calibre back. He is an average backup at best. Not a bad player to have, but by no means is he a difference maker.

Counting 7 out of 32 teams, and then asking for an 8th does NOT prove your point. If anything, it proves that he is a starting caliber RB that, if paired with an effective passing threat, could be a solid difference maker.

A difference maker is one thing (runs out the clock, catches out of back field, finds first downs). A Superstar (carry team on back) is another. Toby is a difference maker, not quite a super star.

Ranger
05-14-2012, 05:09 PM
Well, some of you are looking at Toby the wrong way. He's a grinder. He wears down defenses and then starts to pile up the yards. He doesn't really get to do that here. I think he'd start on about half the teams in the league.

Purple Floyd
05-14-2012, 05:22 PM
I don't see how him being defined as a grinder gives him any more chance to be a starter than if he is classified differently. If anything the fact that he is a grinder, which I agree with, puts restraints on when and where he can be used and limits his chances of starting on any team over backs that are closer to the prototype RB's.

His skill set is always going to limit him to being a bit player in an offense unless he finds a coach and a system that thinks enough of him to build or scheme around the skills he has and is content with giving up the things he lacks.

On way or the other there is no way that he could unseat the starter on half the teams in the league. The number could be counted on one hand.

12purplepride28
05-16-2012, 09:45 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't think Toby would start in TB? He wouldn't be ahead of Blount and Doug Martin. Also, Mikel Leshoure and Javid Best would start ahead of him in Detroit also. Beanie Wells wouldn't lose his job to Toby either. So that narrows his teams down to these five IMO.

New England
Cincy
Indy
Washington
Green Bay

And NE doesn't even really have a feature back, so he wouldn't really be anything more than a committee back with Woodhead and Ridley. Also, Hightower and Helu are both underrated in Washington. So in reality, there's only 3, maybe 4, spots where he's a shoe in to start.

midgensa
05-16-2012, 02:08 PM
Jesus ... all this talk about Toby is crazy.

Marrdro is doing his usual thing here. Sticking his foot in his mouth and then talking all sorts of goofiness to get out of it. Toby is so noticeably slower than AD that it has to be one of the most ridiculous things claimed on this site ... EVER. I do agree that Toby is better than many give credit though ... and do believe he can be an effective RB in this league, but to act like he would start all over the league is ridiculous.

Places he NO QUESTION would ride the pine in: Philadelphia, Minnesota, Chicago, Atlanta, Carolina, New Orleans, San Francisco, St. Louis, Seattle, Buffalo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh (with health Mendenhall), Baltimore, Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville,

Places he would at best share SOME carries, but likely be the second choice: Dallas, N.Y. Giants, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Arizona, Miami, N.Y. Jets, Kansas City, Oakland, San Diego,

Places he would MAYBE have a shot at starting: Green Bay, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh (with Mendenahll injury worse than though), Denver

Places he would have a shot at starting: Washington, New England, Indianapolis

That is probably a generous list too. C'mon Marr ... you are really off your rocker on this one. There are maybe six or seven teams in the entire league where Toby would have an expanded role compared to what he has in Minnesota.

Does not change the fact that I am happy with him in his role, but acting like he could be a feature back all over the league and he is held back by being behind AD is just wrong.

EDIT: Also Marr, while we are at it here ... since we have so many solid starters, so many starter worthy backups ... and such good coaches that know what they are doing ... why the fuck are we only winning 3 games? Is it because of the fans? Seriously? The only players on the team you bag on are the good ones (Jared Allen being a constant snarky target) and you are constantly touting the good play of the offensive line and players like Gerhart while giving props to the front office and the coaches. How come we lose?

Ranger
05-16-2012, 03:12 PM
haha, are you kidding me? Tobe is far better than anything Detroit has. He's better than anybody in Green Bay, Cincy, San Diego, Miami, Arizona, Indy, New England, Washington, Denver...maybe a few other teams. If he had come out in this year's draft, he'd have been snatched up.

12purplepride28
05-16-2012, 04:46 PM
haha, are you kidding me? Tobe is far better than anything Detroit has. He's better than anybody in Green Bay, Cincy, San Diego, Miami, Arizona, Indy, New England, Washington, Denver...maybe a few other teams. If he had come out in this year's draft, he'd have been snatched up.

Obviously he would've been drafted. And the rest of your post is mostly wrong. He's not better than Beanie Wells or Ryan Mathews. He may start on Cincy but it's a tossup. He'd start on GB, IND, maybe WAS, and split time in NE. He's not better than McGahee in DEN, Wells or Mathews in ARI and SD, and he's definitely not better than Reggie Bush in MIA.

Go look up Javhid Best highlights and then Toby Gerhart highlights and tell me Toby is better.

Marrdro
06-26-2012, 10:08 AM
Jesus ... all this talk about Toby is crazy.

Marrdro is doing his usual thing here. Sticking his foot in his mouth and then talking all sorts of goofiness to get out of it. Toby is so noticeably slower than AD that it has to be one of the most ridiculous things claimed on this site ... EVER. I do agree that Toby is better than many give credit though ... and do believe he can be an effective RB in this league, but to act like he would start all over the league is ridiculous.

Places he NO QUESTION would ride the pine in: Philadelphia, Minnesota, Chicago, Atlanta, Carolina, New Orleans, San Francisco, St. Louis, Seattle, Buffalo, Cleveland, Pittsburgh (with health Mendenhall), Baltimore, Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville,

Places he would at best share SOME carries, but likely be the second choice: Dallas, N.Y. Giants, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Arizona, Miami, N.Y. Jets, Kansas City, Oakland, San Diego,

Places he would MAYBE have a shot at starting: Green Bay, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh (with Mendenahll injury worse than though), Denver

Places he would have a shot at starting: Washington, New England, Indianapolis

That is probably a generous list too. C'mon Marr ... you are really off your rocker on this one. There are maybe six or seven teams in the entire league where Toby would have an expanded role compared to what he has in Minnesota.

Does not change the fact that I am happy with him in his role, but acting like he could be a feature back all over the league and he is held back by being behind AD is just wrong.

EDIT: Also Marr, while we are at it here ... since we have so many solid starters, so many starter worthy backups ... and such good coaches that know what they are doing ... why the fuck are we only winning 3 games? Is it because of the fans? Seriously? The only players on the team you bag on are the good ones (Jared Allen being a constant snarky target) and you are constantly touting the good play of the offensive line and players like Gerhart while giving props to the front office and the coaches. How come we lose?

Since when is having a opinion that is hard for people to agree with "Sticking a Foot In Ones Mouth"?

As to his speed. Again, I've given 40 times. That in no way, nor have I every said he plays as fast as AD. Two different animals. My point is that he isn't that much slower. Again, been pretty consistent with that thought.

As to the teams you've listed, you are looking at a few of them and looking at backs that really haven't had a good year last year and a few haven't had a good year in 2 or 3 years.

In the end, were I seemed to "Put My Fut In My Mouth" the most on here is when I start talking about/comparing younger players to older players who have made a name for themselves. In my mind alot of them aren't living up to that name anymore.

Case in point, of late I have been on Whinny and K-dubb. Alot of people still seem to think they are the greatest when in fact neither has really been playing to that level.

Marrdro
06-26-2012, 10:13 AM
Obviously he would've been drafted. And the rest of your post is mostly wrong. He's not better than Beanie Wells or Ryan Mathews. He may start on Cincy but it's a tossup. He'd start on GB, IND, maybe WAS, and split time in NE. He's not better than McGahee in DEN, Wells or Mathews in ARI and SD, and he's definitely not better than Reggie Bush in MIA.

Go look up Javhid Best highlights and then Toby Gerhart highlights and tell me Toby is better.
Best? Comeon, really. Just as a reminder, here are the stats from last year.

NFL Stats: by Player Category (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=RUSHING&conference=null&season=2011&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=RUSHING_YARDS&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1)

At some point opinions do need a bit of validity behind them to be taken to the next step.

Marrdro
06-26-2012, 10:19 AM
I don't see how him being defined as a grinder gives him any more chance to be a starter than if he is classified differently. If anything the fact that he is a grinder, which I agree with, puts restraints on when and where he can be used and limits his chances of starting on any team over backs that are closer to the prototype RB's.

His skill set is always going to limit him to being a bit player in an offense unless he finds a coach and a system that thinks enough of him to build or scheme around the skills he has and is content with giving up the things he lacks.

On way or the other there is no way that he could unseat the starter on half the teams in the league. The number could be counted on one hand.

But is he really a grinder or are a few of the PPO posters lumping him in as one just because he is a bit bigger than most backs and has been used that way by the staff?

Again, he will be asked to take on the starters role this year and will be a damn fine starter just like he has been when asked to before when AD went down.

Is he ever going to make you forget about AD? No, not saying that. All I'm saying is that he is a young back that has gotten better and better each year, that isn't as slow as most think (because of his size) that will do just fine as the starter until AD can get back to 100%.

tastywaves
06-26-2012, 10:22 AM
Since when is having a opinion that is hard for people to agree with "Sticking a Foot In Ones Mouth"?

As to his speed. Again, I've given 40 times. That in no way, nor have I every said he plays as fast as AD. Two different animals. My point is that he isn't that much slower. Again, been pretty consistent with that thought.

As to the teams you've listed, you are looking at a few of them and looking at backs that really haven't had a good year last year and a few haven't had a good year in 2 or 3 years.

In the end, were I seemed to "Put My Fut In My Mouth" the most on here is when I start talking about/comparing younger players to older players who have made a name for themselves. In my mind alot of them aren't living up to that name anymore.

Case in point, of late I have been on Whinny and K-dubb. Alot of people still seem to think they are the greatest when in fact neither has really been playing to that level.

I think the point is that he really is.

Doesn't mean he can't be an effective back, just kind of silly whenever you throw things out like "isn't that much slower" or "is almost as fast". Read much better if you started with something like, he might not be as fast or explosive as AD, but he is a solid north/south runner who can be a very productive contributor and help hold the fort down if AD takes a while to come back.

Marrdro
06-26-2012, 10:24 AM
Ok. You have just lost any shred of credibility that may have remained.
moving on.

Why does everyone seem to think that anyone has credibility on a fan discussion site?

You know whats going to be fun this year? Digging this thread up and going over some of these RB's and their production.

In the end, just because they have a good name and reputation built over a few years doesn't mean they are still the same player.

Turner is one of those. 1 game over 75 yards after week 11. 1 game. That is a sure sign of a back that has been ridden hard and is on the down hill side of being in his prime.

Maybe I should question your credibility for at least not noting that it is a worthy discussion point my friend. In the end, its not about credibility, its about the discussion. Remember :haha:

Marrdro
06-26-2012, 10:28 AM
I think the point is that he really is.

Doesn't mean he can't be an effective back, just kind of silly whenever you throw things out like "isn't that much slower" or "is almost as fast". Read much better if you started with something like, he might not be as fast or explosive as AD, but he is a solid north/south runner who can be a very productive contributor and help hold the fort down if AD takes a while to come back.
But why isn't it OK to say that especially when I gave 40 times along with it?

The same people who disagree with me took Toby's Low speed and compared it to AD's high speed. I could have done the same thing,,,,Took Toby's high speed and compared it to AD's low speed. Instead I gave all three for both.

This is nothing more than several posters on this site who think Rick took Toby to high and haven't liked him from the beginning because of it.

tastywaves
06-26-2012, 11:50 AM
I thought I gave you a good answer earlier on the difference in those times and how it looks on the field. Even through a video in there for a visual effect.

jargomcfargo
06-26-2012, 06:39 PM
This is nothing more than several posters on this site who think Rick took Toby to high and haven't liked him from the beginning because of it.

You have it twisted. Most people realize Toby is a very serviceable backup; one of the best in the league, and are happy to have him as such. His yards per carry bear that out.

They are more upset with Rick wasting an extra draft pick to move up and get him when it didn't appear necessary.
I believe we could have used help elsewhere and found a back up running back in a later round.
40 times don't seem too convincing in this case. Why do you suppose that is?

midgensa
06-26-2012, 07:56 PM
Since when is having a opinion that is hard for people to agree with "Sticking a Foot In Ones Mouth"?

As to his speed. Again, I've given 40 times. That in no way, nor have I every said he plays as fast as AD. Two different animals. My point is that he isn't that much slower. Again, been pretty consistent with that thought.

As to the teams you've listed, you are looking at a few of them and looking at backs that really haven't had a good year last year and a few haven't had a good year in 2 or 3 years.

In the end, were I seemed to "Put My Fut In My Mouth" the most on here is when I start talking about/comparing younger players to older players who have made a name for themselves. In my mind alot of them aren't living up to that name anymore.

Case in point, of late I have been on Whinny and K-dubb. Alot of people still seem to think they are the greatest when in fact neither has really been playing to that level.


You take a month to respond and then talk about all the people who think that Whinny and K-dubb are "the greatest."

Who? Seriously ... Who are the "alot of people?"

And I still stand by the teams I listed. Toby is not true starter material in this league. He MAYBE could be a 1,000 yard back. He is a very solid No. 2 and I think a ton of teams would welcome him in that role. But he would not have an expanded presence in most other offenses.

Marrdro
06-28-2012, 08:06 AM
You take a month to respond and then talk about all the people who think that Whinny and K-dubb are "the greatest."

Who? Seriously ... Who are the "alot of people?"

And I still stand by the teams I listed. Toby is not true starter material in this league. He MAYBE could be a 1,000 yard back. He is a very solid No. 2 and I think a ton of teams would welcome him in that role. But he would not have an expanded presence in most other offenses.

Hey, I've been busy. Work is nuts. Causes me to drop off the net for longer periods when I head into the closet.

Again, back to Toby, it is going to be fun to pull this thread back up and for 2 reasons...

1. To see how a 3rd year back is doing in an expanded role. Anyone who thinks AD is going to come back and be 100% this year is crazy, so Toby's role will expand.

2. to see how a few of these other backs are doing.

marshallvike
07-05-2012, 10:56 AM
Hey, I've been busy. Work is nuts. Causes me to drop off the net for longer periods when I head into the closet.

Again, back to Toby, it is going to be fun to pull this thread back up and for 2 reasons...

1. To see how a 3rd year back is doing in an expanded role. Anyone who thinks AD is going to come back and be 100% this year is crazy, so Toby's role will expand.

2. to see how a few of these other backs are doing.

I agree that AP is not going to be the same this year. Next year, I expect him to be back to form. He will however be playing and taking most of the snaps. That, IMO, is what will make Toby less effective. He seems to be at his best when he starts and handle most of the snaps, getting stronger as the game progresses. I guess that is the same with most RB's.
He does not seem to be as effective coming in for a snap here and a snap there. It may just be my conception of what is happening, but that is what I see. I thought he did a great job last year when called upon to be the main back for us. I just don't think he is as good as a backup RB.

Marrdro
07-17-2012, 11:48 AM
I agree that AP is not going to be the same this year. Next year, I expect him to be back to form. He will however be playing and taking most of the snaps. That, IMO, is what will make Toby less effective. He seems to be at his best when he starts and handle most of the snaps, getting stronger as the game progresses. I guess that is the same with most RB's.
He does not seem to be as effective coming in for a snap here and a snap there. It may just be my conception of what is happening, but that is what I see. I thought he did a great job last year when called upon to be the main back for us. I just don't think he is as good as a backup RB.
Good points my friend, but I tend to think that Toby, and not AD, will take most of the snaps with AD getting only a few a game, especially early on in the season.

That should allow Toby to get into it like you describe. Again, its going to be a fun year to watch.

marshallvike
07-18-2012, 08:17 AM
Good points my friend, but I tend to think that Toby, and not AD, will take most of the snaps with AD getting only a few a game, especially early on in the season.

That should allow Toby to get into it like you describe. Again, its going to be a fun year to watch.

You may be right. Judging by the coach speak we have been hearing this offseason, it would lead one to believe that is what they are planning. I take that with a grain of salt though.
If Toby is the feature back early, I could see that helping Ponder. Teams will not be keying on our RB, but without AP, it may force Musgrave to open up the passing game a little more, helping CP develop his game. It certainly would allow us to see how his progression has come along with a full offseason under his belt. And if he starts out 0-3, it would be all the proof many need to declare him a sure fire bust and it is time to; bring in a veteran QB, draft a QB of the future, give Webb the starting nod, pick up any has been QB that was cut by any other team in the league, etc. Sorry, got sidetracked there. It would be nice to see us hold up well without AP, knowing we will eventually be getting him back. It would also be nice to see what ol Musgrave has in his playbook when he cannot fall back on Adrian. Maybe his offense has progressed this offseason also.
I still think Adrian will be the man from game 1 this (regular) season.

Marrdro
07-18-2012, 11:25 AM
You may be right. Judging by the coach speak we have been hearing this offseason, it would lead one to believe that is what they are planning. I take that with a grain of salt though.
If Toby is the feature back early, I could see that helping Ponder. Teams will not be keying on our RB, but without AP, it may force Musgrave to open up the passing game a little more, helping CP develop his game. It certainly would allow us to see how his progression has come along with a full offseason under his belt. And if he starts out 0-3, it would be all the proof many need to declare him a sure fire bust and it is time to; bring in a veteran QB, draft a QB of the future, give Webb the starting nod, pick up any has been QB that was cut by any other team in the league, etc. Sorry, got sidetracked there. It would be nice to see us hold up well without AP, knowing we will eventually be getting him back. It would also be nice to see what ol Musgrave has in his playbook when he cannot fall back on Adrian. Maybe his offense has progressed this offseason also.
I still think Adrian will be the man from game 1 this (regular) season.
You know me, getting side tracked keeps a thread going........Never apologize for doing it my friend......:)

I'm thinking right along with you, with one exception, going 0-3 isn't a knock on Ponder which should validate getting rid of him (labeling him a bust).

He is just one piece (albeit important) to the puzzle.

I think Toby will help Ponder in a way AD can't and that is the "Dink/Dunk" portion the RB plays in the scheme. Toby seems to be very adept at chipping and then getting out to the opening. Posted a clip of some of those plays on here in the Toby thread.

marshallvike
07-19-2012, 02:29 PM
You know me, getting side tracked keeps a thread going........Never apologize for doing it my friend......:)

I'm thinking right along with you, with one exception, going 0-3 isn't a knock on Ponder which should validate getting rid of him (labeling him a bust).

He is just one piece (albeit important) to the puzzle.

I think Toby will help Ponder in a way AD can't and that is the "Dink/Dunk" portion the RB plays in the scheme. Toby seems to be very adept at chipping and then getting out to the opening. Posted a clip of some of those plays on here in the Toby thread.


I do not think so either. That was just my dig at those who are quick to give up on him, (as is already happening). Along with the "bring in another QB" thoughts that would certainly arise if he went 0-3 .

Marrdro
07-23-2012, 11:05 AM
I do not think so either. That was just my dig at those who are quick to give up on him, (as is already happening). Along with the "bring in another QB" thoughts that would certainly arise if he went 0-3 .
LOL, gotcha. You know me, sometimes I drop the ball on things like that. :)

bleedpurple
08-06-2012, 02:07 PM
TOby and AP are pretty much the same player aside from speed and a little bit of wiggle... He reminds me of Peyton Hillis... But I think he's the worst kind of back to back up AP... There's no change of pace... just slower pace

HEY
08-06-2012, 06:47 PM
TOby and AP are pretty much the same player aside from speed and a little bit of wiggle... He reminds me of Peyton Hillis... But I think he's the worst kind of back to back up AP... There's no change of pace... just slower pace
Hmmm... I have had similar thoughts about this matter, but this is for sure: Those two battering rams will wear down a defense.