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MorrisCaliborne
04-18-2012, 05:56 PM
DE Jared Allen doesn't make the call on draft night, but he's advocating for LSU cornerback Morris Claiborne with the Vikings' first pick. "I am a defensive guy and selfishly I am pulling for a top-notch cover guy, so I like that Claiborne guy out of LSU," Allen told ProFootballTalk.com.

Let's grant his wish! :bow:

i_bleed_purple
04-18-2012, 06:35 PM
Lets not

MorrisCaliborne
04-18-2012, 07:22 PM
Lets not

Why not?

12purplepride28
04-18-2012, 07:29 PM
Why not?

Maybe because having a near sure-fire (as close as you can get, I guess) potential All Pro LT, is more important than a CB. What happens if we don't get Kalil? That will keep Ponder running for his life all year, hurt AP's running, and lower our offense as a whole. If we don't get Claiborne? Our pass defense will still suck, but at least it won't endager someone, especially someone as important as our franchise QB (as of now).

Also, for being a big Morris Claiborne fan, you did a pretty awful job on your username.

MorrisCaliborne
04-18-2012, 07:44 PM
Maybe because having a near sure-fire (as close as you can get, I guess) potential All Pro LT, is more important than a CB. What happens if we don't get Kalil? That will keep Ponder running for his life all year, hurt AP's running, and lower our offense as a whole. If we don't get Claiborne? Our pass defense will still suck, but at least it won't endager someone, especially someone as important as our franchise QB (as of now).

Also, for being a big Morris Claiborne fan, you did a pretty awful job on your username.

I tried using the correct spelling but user name was already taken so I just switched the letters.. you know that the Vikings can still draft a offensive tackle in the later rounds right? Passing on Kalil is not the end of the world

BBQ Platypus
04-18-2012, 07:59 PM
I tried using the correct spelling but user name was already taken so I just switched the letters.. you know that the Vikings can still draft a offensive tackle in the later rounds right? Passing on Kalil is not the end of the world
The same applies to cornerback or literally any other position. This barely even qualifies as an argument. Besides, the general consensus is that this draft is much thinner at O-line than it is at the skill positions anyway.

Of course, I would be just as happy if they took Claiborne as I would be if they Kalil. That being said, I have to question the logic of picking as your username the name of a player we haven't even drafted yet and indeed might not even draft at all. And then deliberately spelled it wrong. Rather than, I don't know, adding a number at the end.

MorrisCaliborne
04-18-2012, 08:06 PM
The same applies to cornerback or literally any other position. This barely even qualifies as an argument. Besides, the general consensus is that this draft is much thinner at O-line than it is at the skill positions anyway.

Of course, I would be just as happy if they took Claiborne as I would be if they Kalil. That being said, I have to question the logic of picking as your username the name of a player we haven't even drafted yet and indeed might not even draft at all. And then deliberately spelled it wrong. Rather than, I don't know, adding a number at the end.

I tried using the correct spelling but user name was already taken so I just switched the letters

BBQ Platypus
04-18-2012, 08:38 PM
I tried using the correct spelling but user name was already taken so I just switched the letters

I know. If you insist on naming yourself after him you could at least add a 1 to the end or something.

kevoncox
04-18-2012, 09:48 PM
Drafting Morris is not going to fix our offense. However, Drafting Khalil, makes our defense better.

12purplepride28
04-18-2012, 10:56 PM
Drafting Morris is not going to fix our offense. However, Drafting Khalil, makes our defense better.

Kalil

12purplepride28
04-18-2012, 10:58 PM
I know. If you insist on naming yourself after him you could at least add a 1 to the end or something.

Or if you don't want numbers just do MorrisClayborne or Claibourne or MorisClaiborne. Lot of possibilities. Lol. Kind of odd to name it after someone that hasn't even been drafted yet.

skum
04-19-2012, 12:13 AM
Him and Claiborne will get lots of playing time with all the 3 and outs..

kevoncox
04-19-2012, 06:16 AM
He wants someone that can get him more sacks. 3 and outs, will get him all the sack attempts he needs, unless we are down and they start running the ball all over us again.

Him and Claiborne will get lots of playing time with all the 3 and outs..

singersp
04-19-2012, 06:55 AM
The same applies to cornerback or literally any other position. This barely even qualifies as an argument. Besides, the general consensus is that this draft is much thinner at O-line than it is at the skill positions anyway.

So, being an O-lineman doesn't require skill?

I would think all positions, including the o-line & kickers are "skill positions". :p

Purple Floyd
04-19-2012, 07:05 AM
Drafting Morris is not going to fix our offense. However, Drafting Khalil, makes our defense better.

WTF?

Dude, you are way overestimating what that guy is capable of. Seriously.

12purplepride28
04-19-2012, 08:44 AM
WTF?

Dude, you are way overestimating what that guy is capable of. Seriously.

Not really. Assuming Kalil helps us get an extra 1.5 plays per drive, that gives our defense more time to rest and also helps our offense. Any offensive help makes our defense better. Doesn't work as much the other way.

C Mac D
04-19-2012, 09:10 AM
This draft is thin at OT and I personally think Kalil is being a little overvalued because of it... and our secondary was ATROCIOUS last year.

I'm probably wrong, but I want Claiborne or Blackmon. I'd still be happy with Kalil though.

To be honest though, the draft is the least of my concerns with the team right now.

NodakPaul
04-19-2012, 10:15 AM
This draft is thin at OT and I personally think Kalil is being a little overvalued because of it... and our secondary was ATROCIOUS last year.

I'm probably wrong, but I want Claiborne or Blackmon. I'd still be happy with Kalil though.

To be honest though, the draft is the least of my concerns with the team right now.

I still lean toward Kalil, but would not complain at all with Blackmon or Claiborne. IMHO it is hard to miss with this pick. I would love to either get Blackmon and Reiff, or Kalil and Alshon Jeffery in the first two rounds.

tastywaves
04-19-2012, 10:53 AM
I still lean toward Kalil, but would not complain at all with Blackmon or Claiborne. IMHO it is hard to miss with this pick. I would love to either get Blackmon and Reiff, or Kalil and Alshon Jeffery in the first two rounds.

I don't think Blackmon and Reiff is much of a possibility, however Kalil and Alshon is a very likely scenario.

It appears very much that this draft comes down to 6 elite prospects (Luck, RGII, Kalil, Claiborne, Blackmon and Richardson). After that, the value of players in the rest of the first appear to have a fairly small separation which I suspect will lead teams to pick more on need. I also would not be surprised to see some wheeling and dealing in this section, possibly with the vikings moving back in to the late 1st to grab the likes of Stephen Hill or Janoris Jenkins. Either way, I think there will be some strong guys available for our second pick.

The draft always seems to have a couple trends that develop..whether it's a run on DT's, WR's or CB's, which pushes some good talent down below where they are graded.

This is how I see the top 6 going
Indy-Luck
Wash-RGIII
MN-Kalil
Clev-Richardson --- smartest move they could make
Tampa-Claiborne
St. Louis-Blackmon

And then possibly Tannehill to Miami at 8 which I think is a huge reach. Outside of that, I think there will be a lot of head scratching.

tarkenton10
04-19-2012, 12:56 PM
I don't think Blackmon and Reiff is much of a possibility, however Kalil and Alshon is a very likely scenario.

It appears very much that this draft comes down to 6 elite prospects (Luck, RGII, Kalil, Claiborne, Blackmon and Richardson). After that, the value of players in the rest of the first appear to have a fairly small separation which I suspect will lead teams to pick more on need. I also would not be surprised to see some wheeling and dealing in this section, possibly with the vikings moving back in to the late 1st to grab the likes of Stephen Hill or Janoris Jenkins. Either way, I think there will be some strong guys available for our second pick.

The draft always seems to have a couple trends that develop..whether it's a run on DT's, WR's or CB's, which pushes some good talent down below where they are graded.

This is how I see the top 6 going
Indy-Luck
Wash-RGIII
MN-Kalil
Clev-Richardson --- smartest move they could make
Tampa-Claiborne
St. Louis-Blackmon

And then possibly Tannehill to Miami at 8 which I think is a huge reach. Outside of that, I think there will be a lot of head scratching.

+1 good post, I think the top 6 picks are pretty much set unless someone throws a monkey wrench into the situation with a huge trade.

Caine
04-19-2012, 12:57 PM
The same applies to cornerback or literally any other position. This barely even qualifies as an argument. Besides, the general consensus is that this draft is much thinner at O-line than it is at the skill positions anyway.



I would argue that the two most important skill positions are QB and WR. Having an Elite LT is NOT a prerequisite to a Championship. It's simply something that a talking hat put out there once, and everyone jumped on the bandwagon.

Rogers, Brady, and Manning did great for years without Elite LT's. In fact, most of the "Elite" left Tackles are on crappy teams...doesn't seem to make their QB's any better.

Truth is, with an average line, and great receivers, any QB can shine....look at what Flynn did in Green Bay. That certainly wasn't because Chad Clifton is a beast...Clifton has been recycled so many times it's amazing he's still in the game.

Further, just because there are a shortage of line players in this draft doesn't mean that the one's available are "must have" players. The fact remains that the teams winning championships have strong passing games (because they have good QB's and WR's), and strong defenses....or, to follow the Green bay model, have such a strong passing game that no one can outscore them (Except the Giants in January...roflmao).

So, for MY money, I'd rather see us load up on WR's. Following that, I'd like to see some solid DB's brought in, as well as LB upgrades. I had originally wanted a QB, but the two worth chasing are already off the table so...

As for LT, I think it will be a wasted pick if we take Kalil. Sure, he may turn out to be great, but it won't help us where we need it most.

Caine

tarkenton10
04-19-2012, 01:40 PM
I would argue that the two most important skill positions are QB and WR. Having an Elite LT is NOT a prerequisite to a Championship. It's simply something that a talking hat put out there once, and everyone jumped on the bandwagon.

Rogers, Brady, and Manning did great for years without Elite LT's. In fact, most of the "Elite" left Tackles are on crappy teams...doesn't seem to make their QB's any better.

Truth is, with an average line, and great receivers, any QB can shine....look at what Flynn did in Green Bay. That certainly wasn't because Chad Clifton is a beast...Clifton has been recycled so many times it's amazing he's still in the game.

Further, just because there are a shortage of line players in this draft doesn't mean that the one's available are "must have" players. The fact remains that the teams winning championships have strong passing games (because they have good QB's and WR's), and strong defenses....or, to follow the Green bay model, have such a strong passing game that no one can outscore them (Except the Giants in January...roflmao).

So, for MY money, I'd rather see us load up on WR's. Following that, I'd like to see some solid DB's brought in, as well as LB upgrades. I had originally wanted a QB, but the two worth chasing are already off the table so...

As for LT, I think it will be a wasted pick if we take Kalil. Sure, he may turn out to be great, but it won't help us where we need it most.

Caine

Our O-line is terrible and a great LT is a great start. And we solve two problems, we have a LT and a LG because we can move Charlie Johnson inside where he is a better fit. So if we draft Kalil we will be upgrading two positions not one. If we don't take Kalil I hope we trade back and go after Claiborne, I am not sold on Blackmon. If we trade with Miami we could get floyd. I hope we get Claiborne, there are a lot fo WR that I like that are similar to Blackmon and other that are an intriguing choice for me. So many WRs and DBs in this draft and the O-line is so thin I think Kalil is our best choice at #3.

bleedpurple
04-19-2012, 03:14 PM
I would argue that the two most important skill positions are QB and WR. Having an Elite LT is NOT a prerequisite to a Championship. It's simply something that a talking hat put out there once, and everyone jumped on the bandwagon.

Rogers, Brady, and Manning did great for years without Elite LT's. In fact, most of the "Elite" left Tackles are on crappy teams...doesn't seem to make their QB's any better.

Truth is, with an average line, and great receivers, any QB can shine....look at what Flynn did in Green Bay. That certainly wasn't because Chad Clifton is a beast...Clifton has been recycled so many times it's amazing he's still in the game.

Further, just because there are a shortage of line players in this draft doesn't mean that the one's available are "must have" players. The fact remains that the teams winning championships have strong passing games (because they have good QB's and WR's), and strong defenses....or, to follow the Green bay model, have such a strong passing game that no one can outscore them (Except the Giants in January...roflmao).

So, for MY money, I'd rather see us load up on WR's. Following that, I'd like to see some solid DB's brought in, as well as LB upgrades. I had originally wanted a QB, but the two worth chasing are already off the table so...

As for LT, I think it will be a wasted pick if we take Kalil. Sure, he may turn out to be great, but it won't help us where we need it most.

Caine

While you do have a point about those QB's... they also are elite QB's that get rid of the ball very quickly bc they recognize coverages and manipulate the defense... We don't have an elite QB... so a tackle is warranted.. Additionally, most of those top teams are good for other reasons and therefore don't draft high enough to get an elite LT...
I can't disagree more about Brady... Have you seen a pats game?? Dude sits back there "literally sits" picks his nose, scratches his ass etc. Brady has all day to throw..

BTW, we gave up the 5th most sacks last year... I highly disagree our line could even remotely be considered "average"... AD led the league in hits behind the line of scrimmage....

We need a lot and a LT is among the biggest areas of need... maybe more than a corner since everyone is healthy for once...

singersp
04-20-2012, 07:00 AM
Truth is, with an average line, and great receivers, any QB can shine....look at what Flynn did in Green Bay. That certainly wasn't because Chad Clifton is a beast...Clifton has been recycled so many times it's amazing he's still in the game.

Caine

For a so called average LT, Clifton sure has been able to handle JA one on one. I think you're selling him a bit short.

singersp
04-20-2012, 07:03 AM
"Give him time to throw," Kalil told the Star Tribune on Sunday. "Honestly. It's that simple. It's about making that quarterback feel more comfortable in the pocket, that he can trust that he can get that extra read and get that extra second knowing he's not going to be getting hit from behind or speared in the back. I think a quarterback's confidence is everything."

NFL draft preview: offensive linemen | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/148032545.html)

singersp
04-20-2012, 07:05 AM
NFL draft preview: offensive linemen | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/148032545.html)


Spielman has said a "functional" left tackle might have the same value. But will he prove it by passing on Kalil?

Caine & Spielman are thinking alike..... :)

Caine
04-20-2012, 12:13 PM
Caine & Spielman are thinking alike..... :)

In this ONE instance, I agree with him.

A PREMIER LT absorbs a lot of cap space...space better used developing a WR corps. Further, a Premier LT only makes the LT position premier...we have other line issues as well.

It's like putting expensive rims and tires on a POS car....

Your transmission slips, the exhaust is broken, the engine misfires regularly, the windows won't roll down, the heater/air-conditioner is busted, and half the time it won't start....

...but it's got some damn nice tires and rims....

Like Cleveland with joe Thomas.

I think that a FUNCTIONAL LT will serve us better than an elite one - SO LONG AS WE USE THE $$$$ SAVED TO UPGRADE THE WR POSITION. That is where we need the most help IMO.

Caine

bleedpurple
04-20-2012, 12:48 PM
In this ONE instance, I agree with him.

A PREMIER LT absorbs a lot of cap space...space better used developing a WR corps. Further, a Premier LT only makes the LT position premier...we have other line issues as well.

It's like putting expensive rims and tires on a POS car....

Your transmission slips, the exhaust is broken, the engine misfires regularly, the windows won't roll down, the heater/air-conditioner is busted, and half the time it won't start....

...but it's got some damn nice tires and rims....

Like Cleveland with joe Thomas.

I think that a FUNCTIONAL LT will serve us better than an elite one - SO LONG AS WE USE THE $$$$ SAVED TO UPGRADE THE WR POSITION. That is where we need the most help IMO.

Caine

That's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard... Spend LT money on developing receivers?? Seriously?? Successful teams are built from the inside out... getting Khalil would be upgrading 2 positions, LT and LG bc Cjohnson moves to the LG. It would give Ponder more time making him better, More time for Receivers to get open and bigger holes for AP to run through...

With the changes we've made on the line, Khalil would be the best prospect to draft.. Not only is it about making our team better, he's the best player or value for the pick we have.... besides maybe Claiborne...

I don't think it's about putting rims on a crappy car.. the OLine is more or less the most important unit on the team outside of QB... arguably... without a solid O-Line, your not gonna get the extra time to throw, get open, or those few precious inches that could decide the game...

You can't just put anybody on the left side of the line.. We did that last year and we ended up giving up the 5th most sacks in the league last year and AP was hit behind the LOS more than any other back last year.. not to mention he missed like 4 games...

singersp
04-20-2012, 10:07 PM
That's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard... Spend LT money on developing receivers?? Seriously?? Successful teams are built from the inside out... getting Khalil would be upgrading 2 positions, LT and LG bc Cjohnson moves to the LG. It would give Ponder more time making him better, More time for Receivers to get open and bigger holes for AP to run through...

With the changes we've made on the line, Khalil would be the best prospect to draft.. Not only is it about making our team better, he's the best player or value for the pick we have.... besides maybe Claiborne...

I don't think it's about putting rims on a crappy car.. the OLine is more or less the most important unit on the team outside of QB... arguably... without a solid O-Line, your not gonna get the extra time to throw, get open, or those few precious inches that could decide the game...

You can't just put anybody on the left side of the line.. We did that last year and we ended up giving up the 5th most sacks in the league last year and AP was hit behind the LOS more than any other back last year.. not to mention he missed like 4 games...

Are you sure we were 5th? Our OL gave up 49 sacks last year. What 4 teams gave up more? I don't think any.

I agree with Caine that we have a great need for decent WR's, but our front line needs to be addressed first.

It would be hard for Ponder to hit those elite WR's while lying on the turf.

If we don't address the OL, I wonder how many sacks they'll give up with the best blocking TE in the league now enjoying retirement?

12purplepride28
04-21-2012, 08:20 AM
It's easy to point to the Patriots and Packers and say that we don't need an elite LT, but their OL's, QB, and Coaches are much much better than us. And I disagree with you on the Patriots. Matt Light is a beast of a LT, and the Packers have a pretty decent OL. Get a good OL and let Ponder get comfortable and WRs will get better. They are a dime a dozen

singersp
04-21-2012, 08:44 AM
It's easy to point to the Patriots and Packers and say that we don't need an elite LT, but their OL's, QB, and Coaches are much much better than us. And I disagree with you on the Patriots. Matt Light is a beast of a LT, and the Packers have a pretty decent OL.

Chad Clifton is a pretty damn good LT as well. Look at how many times he held his own against JA one on one.

Purple Floyd
04-21-2012, 09:46 AM
Not really. Assuming Kalil helps us get an extra 1.5 plays per drive, that gives our defense more time to rest and also helps our offense. Any offensive help makes our defense better. Doesn't work as much the other way.
That is one hell of an assumption. Name one LT in the history of the NFL that came in and gave the team an extra 1.5 plays per drive.

Did any of the top LT's in the game right now personally account for that type of increase in plays per drive? considering the records of those teams I find it highly unlikely but feel free to post proof.

Purple Floyd
04-21-2012, 09:48 AM
It's easy to point to the Patriots and Packers and say that we don't need an elite LT, but their OL's, QB, and Coaches are much much better than us. And I disagree with you on the Patriots. Matt Light is a beast of a LT, and the Packers have a pretty decent OL. Get a good OL and let Ponder get comfortable and WRs will get better. They are a dime a dozen


It's pretty easy to look at teams like Miami and Cleveland and say even with a top LT their offense still looks like crap.

Purple Floyd
04-21-2012, 09:49 AM
I would argue that the two most important skill positions are QB and WR. Having an Elite LT is NOT a prerequisite to a Championship. It's simply something that a talking hat put out there once, and everyone jumped on the bandwagon.

Rogers, Brady, and Manning did great for years without Elite LT's. In fact, most of the "Elite" left Tackles are on crappy teams...doesn't seem to make their QB's any better.

Truth is, with an average line, and great receivers, any QB can shine....look at what Flynn did in Green Bay. That certainly wasn't because Chad Clifton is a beast...Clifton has been recycled so many times it's amazing he's still in the game.

Further, just because there are a shortage of line players in this draft doesn't mean that the one's available are "must have" players. The fact remains that the teams winning championships have strong passing games (because they have good QB's and WR's), and strong defenses....or, to follow the Green bay model, have such a strong passing game that no one can outscore them (Except the Giants in January...roflmao).

So, for MY money, I'd rather see us load up on WR's. Following that, I'd like to see some solid DB's brought in, as well as LB upgrades. I had originally wanted a QB, but the two worth chasing are already off the table so...

As for LT, I think it will be a wasted pick if we take Kalil. Sure, he may turn out to be great, but it won't help us where we need it most.

Caine
+1

vikinggreg
04-21-2012, 10:08 AM
Chad Clifton is a pretty damn good LT as well. Look at how many times he held his own against JA one on one.

You do know the last 4 times Allen face the Packers when Clifton was a starter he has 8.5 sacks....although Clifton didn't give up any last year since he missed 10 games and Allen never saw him

battleaxe4cheese
04-21-2012, 11:10 AM
What makes me relatively happy at least is the fact that it's almost impossible for the Rickster to screw up the first and second pick. Well....maybe not the second but for sure the first. We have a ton of holes in the dam, and only so many corks. We have to fix the 'gushers' first and then worry about the others.

Gushers in my mind are the .4 seconds Ponder has to throw the ball, and basically one slot receiver to throw to on offense. I know are secondary is and should be considered a gusher, but I honestly believe with FA signings and getting "the strangler" back, we will be better than most think in the secondary. I'm not saying that means much, but we should be quite a bit better than last year as it stands right now.


In this division, if you aren't scoring a lot of points than you are never going to keep up and that's a fact. We need offense bad. That being said, I would like to see 1. Kalil 2. WR

12purplepride28
04-22-2012, 01:28 AM
That is one hell of an assumption. Name one LT in the history of the NFL that came in and gave the team an extra 1.5 plays per drive.

Did any of the top LT's in the game right now personally account for that type of increase in plays per drive? considering the records of those teams I find it highly unlikely but feel free to post proof.

It's not that great of an assumption, and it shouldn't be that hard to do. Charlie Johnson was awful and people were all over Ponder. Bring in a (potentially) great LT who can give Ponder a couple extra seconds once in awhile and that will do wonders for his confidence.

Cleveland's and Miami's offenses suck because their QBs are garbage, not because they have LTs. We have our QB, now we need an OL for him. Look at Carr. No OL --> always sacked --> Bust. If we had an average or above average OL as a unit then I would understand the desire to go WR or CB, but we don't . Our OL is garbage and it's going to get Ponder murdered.

Marrdro
04-22-2012, 04:33 AM
Kindof like the Chicken or the Egg discussion. Good WR's get open quicker, QB can throw to them quicker, don't need a great OL.

Good OL allows the QB more time to find crappy WR's as they try to get open and can protect him long enough until the crappy WR's get open.

Truth of the matter is, both answers are correct. What one has to "Ponder" is, what do the Vikings staff think is correct? In this instance my belief is that they are going to take the T. They've then fixed/plugged/addressed 3 of 5 positions on the OL.

RT Load
RG The Swartz be with you
C Sully
LG CJ (moves in from LT)
LT Kalil

Add in 2 or 3 WR's from this class and Ponder should have some targets at WR. Problem that worries me is the signing of Carlson and Hardy still make me want to believe Ole Musgrove is going to employ alot of multi TE sets.

Not alot of work for a WR when they run out a 2-3 or a 1-3 set.
LT Kalil

Marrdro
04-22-2012, 06:23 AM
Ex-Viking Gary Zimmerman talks about Matt Kalil

Bob Sansevere: Ex-Viking Gary Zimmerman talks about Matt Kalil - TwinCities.com (http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_20443804/bob-sansevere-ex-viking-gary-zimmerman-talks-about?source=rss)

So, basically, what Zim is saying is, as long as you stay away from 7 step drops, any ole LT will do, as long as you have the WR's who can get open on the 3 and 5 step routes.

Hmmmmmmm, sounds like one of the eggs has moved in front of the chicken. :think:

purplepat
04-22-2012, 08:11 AM
AFAIK, both Kalil and Claiborne are considered "elite" prospects. I would be happy with either one. If we take Claiborne, I could see taking Mississippi LT Bobby Massie with our 2nd round pick.

If the defense can get off the field more/sooner, and yield less points, the Vikings offense may not be forced to score tons of points to win. I think either player is a move in the right direction.

singersp
04-22-2012, 08:18 AM
You do know the last 4 times Allen face the Packers when Clifton was a starter he has 8.5 sacks....although Clifton didn't give up any last year since he missed 10 games and Allen never saw him

No I didn't know that because it's bullshit.

If you checked your facts, the last 4 times Allen faced the Packers when Clifton was starting he only had 2 sacks.

Those 7.5 sacks in 2009 came against a different LT (Lang, I believe) as Clifton never played in those games.

It further shows what can happen when you take a good starting LT like Clifton & replace him with a "serviceable" LT like some here think is all we need.

singersp
04-22-2012, 08:53 AM
That is one hell of an assumption. Name one LT in the history of the NFL that came in and gave the team an extra 1.5 plays per drive.

Did any of the top LT's in the game right now personally account for that type of increase in plays per drive? considering the records of those teams I find it highly unlikely but feel free to post proof.

But look at how many close games they lost by 7 points or less! If only those teams had a secondary! LOL!

You may want to look at other aspects of their game for the reason they lose games other than just LT. QB perhaps?

singersp
04-22-2012, 09:00 AM
Bob Sansevere: Ex-Viking Gary Zimmerman talks about Matt Kalil - TwinCities.com (http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_20443804/bob-sansevere-ex-viking-gary-zimmerman-talks-about?source=rss)

So, basically, what Zim is saying is, as long as you stay away from 7 step drops, any ole LT will do, as long as you have the WR's who can get open on the 3 and 5 step routes.

Hmmmmmmm, sounds like one of the eggs has moved in front of the chicken. :think:

Problem is you need a line that can hold for those 3 & 5 step routes. We don't have that.

A hand off to AD takes less time than any throw Ponder tries to make. How many times was "THE BEST RB IN THE LEAGUE" (quote unquote) stuffed behind the line or tackled for no gain again?

Didn't out RB's lead the league with most tackles for a loss?

Braddock
04-22-2012, 02:40 PM
It's pretty easy to look at teams like Miami and Cleveland and say even with a top LT their offense still looks like crap.

I struggle with the Miami/Cleveland comparison, because they don't have the same team we do. They aren't two years removed from a conference championship run, and they rotate through QBs far more than we do. They also do not have the offensive weapons we do (AP, Harvin, and I think Rudolph will work out well).

We need stability in our QB position; it's the most important position in sports. That means helping him develop and keeping him from injury as best we can. THAT is why LT is the most important pick for us to make. We may not have a true #1 WR, but we have enough offensive weapons to make a playoff run. Save the offensive playmaker pick for next year. We need to protect Ponder. Period.

***EDIT: if we are getting our blue-chips from the draft, why not trade some picks to move up to pick more blue-chip players? Let's see if we can get floyd later in the first, by packaging our 2nd and a 3rd? Would be worth it.

mountainviking
04-22-2012, 05:36 PM
I struggle with the Miami/Cleveland comparison, because they don't have the same team we do. They aren't two years removed from a conference championship run, and they rotate through QBs far more than we do. They also do not have the offensive weapons we do (AP, Harvin, and I think Rudolph will work out well).

We need stability in our QB position; it's the most important position in sports. That means helping him develop and keeping him from injury as best we can. THAT is why LT is the most important pick for us to make. We may not have a true #1 WR, but we have enough offensive weapons to make a playoff run. Save the offensive playmaker pick for next year. We need to protect Ponder. Period.

***EDIT: if we are getting our blue-chips from the draft, why not trade some picks to move up to pick more blue-chip players? Let's see if we can get floyd later in the first, by packaging our 2nd and a 3rd? Would be worth it.

Turns out our 3rd + 2nd is about right on value-wise with CIN's 21st pick. That might get us a shot at Hill or Wright, but I'm pretty sure Floyd and Blackmon will be long gone.

I've seen some mocks with Riley Rieff slipping to the Lions at 23...why not grab Blackmon first, and move up for more of a mauling run blocker later in the first? I'm just saying, Kalil isn't the only LT prospect in this draft either, and there could, possibly be a better fit available later in the first (Reiff) or with our 2nd (Osemele?) or even at the top of the third (Z.Sanders?)

I think Blackmon is a truly elite player who has shown consistent production (100+ catches/year!) vs. double and triple teams and a rare, quiet confidence/non-diva attitude for such a star. His on field threat would open up a lil extra running space for AP and holes underneath for Harvin and our TEs to shine and give Ponder a versatile, top-notch set of skill players to grow with. Blackmon runs all the routes and has great hands. Harvin does it all. Both of our TEs can block and catch (an improvement on Shank). All that versatility could make it really difficult to gameplan against us.

We can still get a really good LT later. The top 5 LT hasn't worked out all that well in STL, MIA, or CLE anyway.

12purplepride28
04-22-2012, 05:48 PM
We can still get a really good LT later. The top 5 LT hasn't worked out all that well in STL, MIA, or CLE anyway.

They've actually worked out amazingly well in MIA and CLE. Just because the teams haven't worked out doesn't change the fact that their LTs are beasts. Would you say that the Adrian Peterson pick hasn't worked out for us because we haven't won anything? What about the Harvin pick?

Solidify our OL and let Ponder grow. Just because CLE and MIA suck doesn't mean their LTs weren't great picks. The rest of their teams blow. We have AP and Harvin and whoever we snag in the 3rd or 4th. That's infinitely more than CLE has and better than what MIA has. Comparing our teams is dumb, yet so many people do it to "prove" that LT isn't that important.

Braddock
04-22-2012, 05:54 PM
Turns out our 3rd + 2nd is about right on value-wise with CIN's 21st pick. That might get us a shot at Hill or Wright, but I'm pretty sure Floyd and Blackmon will be long gone.

I've seen some mocks with Riley Rieff slipping to the Lions at 23...why not grab Blackmon first, and move up for more of a mauling run blocker later in the first? I'm just saying, Kalil isn't the only LT prospect in this draft either, and there could, possibly be a better fit available later in the first (Reiff) or with our 2nd (Osemele?) or even at the top of the third (Z.Sanders?)

I think Blackmon is a truly elite player who has shown consistent production (100+ catches/year!) vs. double and triple teams and a rare, quiet confidence/non-diva attitude for such a star. His on field threat would open up a lil extra running space for AP and holes underneath for Harvin and our TEs to shine and give Ponder a versatile, top-notch set of skill players to grow with. Blackmon runs all the routes and has great hands. Harvin does it all. Both of our TEs can block and catch (an improvement on Shank). All that versatility could make it really difficult to gameplan against us.

We can still get a really good LT later. The top 5 LT hasn't worked out all that well in STL, MIA, or CLE anyway.

Very well said. If I were running the team, I would want to start our rebuild from the inside-out, starting at the lines and working outwards. With the pass rushers in the NFCN, I want my O-line to be filled with anchors that can stay together and gel over multiple seasons (I would get rid of Loadholt, in an instant, and start over there too). If my team were one player away, I'd go for the stud WR. If it's more (like the Vikings are) then I would start building the foundation before putting in the flashy window dressings and fancy exterior brick work.

mountainviking
04-22-2012, 07:44 PM
They've actually worked out amazingly well in MIA and CLE. Just because the teams haven't worked out doesn't change the fact that their LTs are beasts. Would you say that the Adrian Peterson pick hasn't worked out for us because we haven't won anything? What about the Harvin pick?

Solidify our OL and let Ponder grow. Just because CLE and MIA suck doesn't mean their LTs weren't great picks. The rest of their teams blow. We have AP and Harvin and whoever we snag in the 3rd or 4th. That's infinitely more than CLE has and better than what MIA has. Comparing our teams is dumb, yet so many people do it to "prove" that LT isn't that important.

How about this for a point of view?

Would you rather have Calvin Johnson and Jeff Backus...or Joe Thomas with Greg Little?

Larry Fitzgerald and Levi Brown? OR Davone Bess and Jake Long?

I think the superstar WR can take 2 defenders out of nearly every play, but a LT is still only blocking 1 guy most of the time. We'll still get an upgrade at LT...it'd be hard not to given what we have there.

YouthVikesFan
04-22-2012, 11:02 PM
I wanted kalil up until the week of the draft. Frazier announced LTs arent game changers and im starting to sink into his words. I looked at blackmon games and i like what i see, i say go with the playmaker. Im prayin cordy glenn be there in the second but i wont hold my breath. As for claiborn no point blank period, hes the least we need of all 3 considerations.

MorrisCaliborne
04-22-2012, 11:14 PM
I wanted kalil up until the week of the draft. Frazier announced LTs arent game changers and im starting to sink into his words. I looked at blackmon games and i like what i see, i say go with the playmaker. Im prayin cordy glenn be there in the second but i wont hold my breath. As for claiborn no point blank period, hes the least we need of all 3 considerations.

Vikings | Morris Claiborne may be first pick
Sun, 22 Apr 2012 13:16:52 -0700

The Minnesota Vikings may decide to take Louisiana State CB Morris Claiborne with their first-round draft choice in the 2012 NFL Draft.

0 Comments | Source: 1500ESPN.com - Tom Pelissero

Read more: NFL News and Rumors - Hot off the Wire Fantasy Football News (http://www.kffl.com/hotw/nfl#ixzz1spkJmBB0)

singersp
04-23-2012, 05:24 AM
How about this for a point of view?

Would you rather have Calvin Johnson and Jeff Backus...or Joe Thomas with Greg Little?

Larry Fitzgerald and Levi Brown? OR Davone Bess and Jake Long?

I think the superstar WR can take 2 defenders out of nearly every play, but a LT is still only blocking 1 guy most of the time. We'll still get an upgrade at LT...it'd be hard not to given what we have there.

Having Calvin Johnson as your WR is moot if your QB can't throw to him because he's lying on the ground or running for his life. Our QB's were getting sacked 10% of the time when they dropped back to pass. Additionally only 56% of those passes were being completed. Once the worm driller known as McNabb was benched, the pass completions dropped from 56% to 54%.

Yes, a WR can take two defenders with him, but how often is one of the two a DT?

vikinggreg
04-23-2012, 08:30 AM
No I didn't know that because it's bullshit.

If you checked your facts, the last 4 times Allen faced the Packers when Clifton was starting he only had 2 sacks.

Those 7.5 sacks in 2009 came against a different LT (Lang, I believe) as Clifton never played in those games.

It further shows what can happen when you take a good starting LT like Clifton & replace him with a "serviceable" LT like some here think is all we need.

Oops I missed Clifton 09 injuries...so he has only face Allen twice in the last 3 years and Allen has had 2 sacks and 3 sacks in their last 4 meetings if you go back to 08

to the second part last years backup tackle allowed 3 sacks in 2 meetings with Allen last year...not so sure if servicable and backup are the same

mountainviking
04-23-2012, 09:38 AM
Vikings | Morris Claiborne may be first pick
Sun, 22 Apr 2012 13:16:52 -0700

The Minnesota Vikings may decide to take Louisiana State CB Morris Claiborne with their first-round draft choice in the 2012 NFL Draft.

0 Comments | Source: 1500ESPN.com - Tom Pelissero

Read more: NFL News and Rumors - Hot off the Wire Fantasy Football News (http://www.kffl.com/hotw/nfl#ixzz1spkJmBB0)

Well there's not much news there, hell, we MAY take a FB with the third pick too, but not likely. ;)

I'm not against Claiborne or Kalil. That's the beauty of it! We pick one of those 3 at 3 and I'll be happy. If we can move back a few spots and still land one of those 3 or Floyd, I'll be even happier. I just think that Blackmon makes the biggest difference for our team right now, and that IF his personality is what I think it is, he's a rare gem of a non-Diva Receiver (where Kalil has some question marks about intensity and entitlement, on the wrong side of rare for an OL.)

Pairing Cook with Claiborne in Man-Coverage with 2 Safeties on the deep zones and our DL and LBs sharing the short zones sounds great! We do have three super-stars QBs in our division and all of them have at least one super-star WR, so boosting the defense makes sense. But, the NFL rules have made it harder to play defense, and easier to pass the ball (or collect free first downs via pass interference etc.) And, we've already added 4 CBs back to the roster: 1 from injury, 1 from stupidity, and 2 Free Agents. IF we draft Claiborne, keep Cook & Winny, we'd have some serious competition for the 4th and 5th spots and might not even keep the FA guys we just signed. It just makes it sound a lil unlikely.

MorrisCaliborne
04-23-2012, 09:57 AM
Well there's not much news there, hell, we MAY take a FB with the third pick too, but not likely. ;)

I'm not against Claiborne or Kalil. That's the beauty of it! We pick one of those 3 at 3 and I'll be happy. If we can move back a few spots and still land one of those 3 or Floyd, I'll be even happier. I just think that Blackmon makes the biggest difference for our team right now, and that IF his personality is what I think it is, he's a rare gem of a non-Diva Receiver (where Kalil has some question marks about intensity and entitlement, on the wrong side of rare for an OL.)

Pairing Cook with Claiborne in Man-Coverage with 2 Safeties on the deep zones and our DL and LBs sharing the short zones sounds great! We do have three super-stars QBs in our division and all of them have at least one super-star WR, so boosting the defense makes sense. But, the NFL rules have made it harder to play defense, and easier to pass the ball (or collect free first downs via pass interference etc.) And, we've already added 4 CBs back to the roster: 1 from injury, 1 from stupidity, and 2 Free Agents. IF we draft Claiborne, keep Cook & Winny, we'd have some serious competition for the 4th and 5th spots and might not even keep the FA guys we just signed. It just makes it sound a lil unlikely.

Not sure why almost everybody wants Floyd? He is going to be a bust

mountainviking
04-23-2012, 10:33 AM
Having Calvin Johnson as your WR is moot if your QB can't throw to him because he's lying on the ground or running for his life. Our QB's were getting sacked 10% of the time when they dropped back to pass. Additionally only 56% of those passes were being completed. Once the worm driller known as McNabb was benched, the pass completions dropped from 56% to 54%.

Yes, a WR can take two defenders with him, but how often is one of the two a DT?

Yeah, I know that our OL is a huge problem! Last in the league in adjusted sack yards, yet we were no.2 in yards/rush despite the fact everybody knows thats what we're going to do.

My thought is that getting an upgrade at No.1 WR, ie, more of a deep threat than Harvin, is way more likely in round 1, maybe 2 because of the WR depth this draft, but we're still looking at a guy who needs more development. On the other hand, we could probably draft a LT at the top of the 3rd or 4th who would still be an upgrade to what we have now.

We could give up our 3 to move our 2 into late first and get Reiff, Glenn, or Martin. We could move our 2nd back or our 3rd up and get Adams, Massie, or Osemele. Or we could very likely wait til the 3rd and still get an upgrade by bringing in one of Ponder's college protectors, Zebrie Sanders:


Pass Blocking - Footwork and technique are usually very good. Has a balanced and agile pass protection set that handles all motions effectively. Hand placement is excellent. The one concern is handling the super quick edge rusher. Foot speed and quickness are very good, but not elite. Has the power and bend needed to anchor against the bull rush. Sometimes will attempt to punch too soon, lunge, and fail to transfer power properly as a result.

Run Blocking - Has the ability to sink hips and generate real power with strong hands. Consistently moves defenders back. Grades out extremely well in every aspect of run blocking.

Intangibles: Nearly the highest possible grade. Smart, durable, healthy, experienced and of high character. Willingness and ability to play either OT position earns high marks.

Zebrie Sanders, Florida State, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1630286/zebrie-sanders)

vikinggreg
04-23-2012, 02:06 PM
For a so called average LT, Clifton sure has been able to handle JA one on one. I think you're selling him a bit short.

Its looking like Chad's done the Packers have just released him


Clifton had offseason back surgery and failed a team physical, sources told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter, who initially reported Clifton would be released.


Link (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7845564/chad-clifton-green-bay-packers-released)

12purplepride28
04-23-2012, 02:47 PM
How about this for a point of view?

Would you rather have Calvin Johnson and Jeff Backus...or Joe Thomas with Greg Little?

Larry Fitzgerald and Levi Brown? OR Davone Bess and Jake Long?

I think the superstar WR can take 2 defenders out of nearly every play, but a LT is still only blocking 1 guy most of the time. We'll still get an upgrade at LT...it'd be hard not to given what we have there.

Well obviously if we had the opportunity to take a Fitz or a Calvin then we would take him, but Blackmon isn't them. He could be a bust for all we know, and even if he isn't most "experts" believe that he has a high floor and a low ceiling. If I knew that Blackmon would be a superstar then I would be on his bandwagon in a heartbeat. But we don't know that. Kalil is much more likely to become Joe Thomas than Blackmon is to be like anyone you mentioned.

Also, if we take Kalil then we can put Charlie Johnson at LG and Geoff Schwartz or Joe Berger at RG with Loadholt/Schwartz at RT. That is a lot more than taking out one defender.

Look at what Orlando Pace did for Warner and Faulk! Build the line first then get more weapons. We have Harvin, Peterson/Gerhart (meh), and Kyle Rudolph/Carlson. That is a much better group than our OL. And there are always WR gems found in the late rounds or as UDFA, but that can be said for any group. There just seems to be a lot of WRs taken in later rounds that are superstars.

singersp
04-23-2012, 08:24 PM
On the other hand, we could probably draft a LT at the top of the 3rd or 4th who would still be an upgrade to what we have now.

That's probably a very sad fact.

Except Spielman will be the one doing the drafting.