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bleedpurple
04-11-2012, 02:32 PM
I did some quick and dirty analysis and here's what it shows... Although Spielman can't be solely held accountable for this ridiculous draft history he did have a part in it.....

Spielman came in 2007 and in that time out of 36 draft picks, he's selected 11 starters. 1 is not on the team anymore, and 2 are starting due to injury.

1. AP (2007)
2. Sid Rice (2007) - No longer with team
3. Brian Robison (2007)
4. John Sullivan (2008)
5. Percy Harvin (2009)
6. Phil Loadholt (2009)
7. Jamarca Sanford (2009) - Questionable starter
8. Chris Cook (2010)
9. Christian Ponder (2011)
10. Kyle Rudolph (2011)
11. Mistral Raymond (2011) - Shouldn't be starting

3 picks not included in above total went toward Jaren Allen in 2008.

Additionally, 8 of those 36 are consistent contributors on the team.

1. Letroy Guion (2008) - may start
2. Asher Allen (2009)
3. Jasper Brinkley (2009) - might start this year
4. Toby Gerhart (2010)
5. Everson Griffen (2010)
6. Joe Webb (2010)
7. Christian Ballard (2011)
8. Brandon Burton (2011)

Lastly, and probably more troubling, there is exactly two starters and possibly four potential starters were drafted by us past the fourth round.

if you take away the no-brainer stars and potential stars by Spielman and Company such as Adrian Peterson, Percy Harvin, Kyle Rudolph (man, I thought there would be more) it gets worse... I like Ponder, but he's far from a potential star and many think Joe Webb is a better option at QB..

Here is a breakdown by position
4 Quarter Backs - 2 have potential 50%
3 Offensive Tackles - 1 starter 33%
2 Centers - 1 starter 50%
2 Running Backs - both good 100%
2 Tight Ends - Both good 100%
6 Wide Receivers - 2 starters 1 lost to FA 17%

4 Defensive Ends - 3 are good 75%
4 Corner Backs - 1 is competent 25% (asher allen sucks sorry!!)
1 Defensive Tackles - Guion gets his chance --%
5 Linebackers - 1 starter 25% 1 converted to FB
3 Safetys - 1 starter all are bad 33%

all in all, basically Spielman knows how to draft RB's, TE's and DE's. The remaining positions he has sucked balls at....

Bottom line, along with poor coaching this is how a team goes 3-13.

KevinK
04-11-2012, 03:33 PM
Well.... he did have 2 Rookie of the Year picks........?

And I must say he could have paid Sidney Rice......to much money.

MorrisCaliborne
04-11-2012, 06:03 PM
At least Spielman let Sidney go, he is too injury prone and only had 1 good year in 2009, not worth the $$$ and then he goes to Seattle and got injuried again and barely played

marshallvike
04-11-2012, 09:05 PM
I did some quick and dirty analysis and here's what it shows... Although Spielman can't be solely held accountable for this ridiculous draft history he did have a part in it.....

Spielman came in 2007 and in that time out of 36 draft picks, he's selected 11 starters. 1 is not on the team anymore, and 2 are starting due to injury.

1. AP (2007)
2. Sid Rice (2007) - No longer with team
3. Brian Robison (2007)
4. John Sullivan (2008)
5. Percy Harvin (2009)
6. Phil Loadholt (2009)
7. Jamarca Sanford (2009) - Questionable starter
8. Chris Cook (2010)
9. Christian Ponder (2011)
10. Kyle Rudolph (2011)
11. Mistral Raymond (2011) - Shouldn't be starting

3 picks not included in above total went toward Jaren Allen in 2008.

Additionally, 8 of those 36 are consistent contributors on the team.

1. Letroy Guion (2008) - may start
2. Asher Allen (2009)
3. Jasper Brinkley (2009) - might start this year
4. Toby Gerhart (2010)
5. Everson Griffen (2010)
6. Joe Webb (2010)
7. Christian Ballard (2011)
8. Brandon Burton (2011)

Lastly, and probably more troubling, there is exactly two starters and possibly four potential starters were drafted by us past the fourth round.

if you take away the no-brainer stars and potential stars by Spielman and Company such as Adrian Peterson, Percy Harvin, Kyle Rudolph (man, I thought there would be more) it gets worse... I like Ponder, but he's far from a potential star and many think Joe Webb is a better option at QB..

Here is a breakdown by position
4 Quarter Backs - 2 have potential 50%
3 Offensive Tackles - 1 starter 33%
2 Centers - 1 starter 50%
2 Running Backs - both good 100%
2 Tight Ends - Both good 100%
6 Wide Receivers - 2 starters 1 lost to FA 17%

4 Defensive Ends - 3 are good 75%
4 Corner Backs - 1 is competent 25% (asher allen sucks sorry!!)
1 Defensive Tackles - Guion gets his chance --%
5 Linebackers - 1 starter 25% 1 converted to FB
3 Safetys - 1 starter all are bad 33%

all in all, basically Spielman knows how to draft RB's, TE's and DE's. The remaining positions he has sucked balls at....

Bottom line, along with poor coaching this is how a team goes 3-13.

Nice research.
I do have to mention though, that I was reading the Sporting News Draft Edition last week. There was something that caught my attention. They listed how each team hadd done over the last three years in the draft. How many picks, how many starers from those picks, and how many on the team. I was very surprised to see that most teams were in the same boat in that they had 2-2 1/2 starters per draft on their team. Very few had drafted 3 starters per year over the last three years, no matter how many picks they had in the draft. I still think you build thru the draft, but I understand it is not possible to build solely thru the draft.
As far as Spielmillen is concerned, I am willing to give him a little (very little) slack. I do not think he had much authority when Chilly was here.

VKG4LFE
04-11-2012, 09:15 PM
Nice research.
I do have to mention though, that I was reading the Sporting News Draft Edition last week. There was something that caught my attention. They listed how each team hadd done over the last three years in the draft. How many picks, how many starers from those picks, and how many on the team. I was very surprised to see that most teams were in the same boat in that they had 2-2 1/2 starters per draft on their team. Very few had drafted 3 starters per year over the last three years, no matter how many picks they had in the draft. I still think you build thru the draft, but I understand it is not possible to build solely thru the draft.
As far as Spielmillen is concerned, I am willing to give him a little (very little) slack. I do not think he had much authority when Chilly was here.


I agree marshall, we can't go in expecting to draft 7 players each year that will be solid starters for us. We aren't the only team in the NFL that struggles at times with the draft, but we have also hit some gems IMO. Try being a Cincy fan (prior to this year) or a Cleveland Browns fan, what have they really had? Granted I don't want the vikes to be categorized with those teams in any facet of the game, but it could be worse!

Marshall, being from Naperville have you ever heard of Shaun Wild?

singersp
04-12-2012, 07:43 AM
Just because 11 of them happen to be starting, doesn't mean they're good proven players. It simply means they're starting because that's the best we have at that position.

Of those 11, how many would you claim are good, proven starters? I'd say 5-6.

marshallvike
04-12-2012, 08:39 AM
Nice research.
I do have to mention though, that I was reading the Sporting News Draft Edition last week. There was something that caught my attention. They listed how each team hadd done over the last three years in the draft. How many picks, how many starers from those picks, and how many on the team. I was very surprised to see that most teams were in the same boat in that they had 2-2 1/2 starters per draft on their team. Very few had drafted 3 starters per year over the last three years, no matter how many picks they had in the draft. I still think you build thru the draft, but I understand it is not possible to build solely thru the draft.
As far as Spielmillen is concerned, I am willing to give him a little (very little) slack. I do not think he had much authority when Chilly was here.


I agree marshall, we can't go in expecting to draft 7 players each year that will be solid starters for us. We aren't the only team in the NFL that struggles at times with the draft, but we have also hit some gems IMO. Try being a Cincy fan (prior to this year) or a Cleveland Browns fan, what have they really had? Granted I don't want the vikes to be categorized with those teams in any facet of the game, but it could be worse!

Marshall, being from Naperville have you ever heard of Shaun Wild?



Yeah. That was a very messed up situation. Downtown Naperville is a very safe place to hang out,(you just don't want to drive when you go drinking there), so it was shocking for the whole town. Absolutely no reason for what happened. A friend of mine was working there that night as an assistant manager. He was telling me about it. The asshat who stabbed him must have been looking for some type of trouble. No other reason for him to have a knife. As I said it is a very safe place to hang out. I felt pretty bad for everyone involved that night. And a man died just trying to calm down a situation. We are not used to that around here.

12purplepride28
04-12-2012, 09:44 AM
Nice research.
I do have to mention though, that I was reading the Sporting News Draft Edition last week. There was something that caught my attention. They listed how each team hadd done over the last three years in the draft. How many picks, how many starers from those picks, and how many on the team. I was very surprised to see that most teams were in the same boat in that they had 2-2 1/2 starters per draft on their team. Very few had drafted 3 starters per year over the last three years, no matter how many picks they had in the draft. I still think you build thru the draft, but I understand it is not possible to build solely thru the draft.
As far as Spielmillen is concerned, I am willing to give him a little (very little) slack. I do not think he had much authority when Chilly was here.


I agree marshall, we can't go in expecting to draft 7 players each year that will be solid starters for us. We aren't the only team in the NFL that struggles at times with the draft, but we have also hit some gems IMO. Try being a Cincy fan (prior to this year) or a Cleveland Browns fan, what have they really had? Granted I don't want the vikes to be categorized with those teams in any facet of the game, but it could be worse!

Marshall, being from Naperville have you ever heard of Shaun Wild?

I don't think you can trash talk the Bengals anymore. They are going to be good with AJ and Andy.

bleedpurple
04-12-2012, 10:34 AM
Just because 11 of them happen to be starting, doesn't mean they're good proven players. It simply means they're starting because that's the best we have at that position.

Of those 11, how many would you claim are good, proven starters? I'd say 5-6.


Thanks Singer... That's the point I was trying to state without being overly negative... But yeah, 2-3 of those guys were no brainer picks... esp. early in the draft... but aside from that.. We haven't drafted well at all... the other half of those guys we drafted have no business starting... Not to mention, we have NO depth behind those guys that are starting but have no business starting...

It almost looks like, based on what we have done so far in free agency and the draft, is that he is taking the statistical modern-day baseball "MONEY-BALL" approach... getting low end cheap talent around your stars to improve the team... signing / drafting bonafide special teamers instead of starters...

Zeus
04-12-2012, 10:48 AM
Thanks Singer... That's the point I was trying to state without being overly negative... But yeah, 2-3 of those guys were no brainer picks... esp. early in the draft...

I'm assuming you mean AD. That was hardly a "no-brainer" pick. There were some at the draft party (including me) who wanted Brady Quinn. (Yes, I know that was stupid). But let me ask you this - would you rather have AD right now or Patrick Willis? How about Darrelle Revis? Both of those guys were drafted after AD.

2007 NFL Draft Listing - Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2007/draft.htm)

=Z=

VKG4LFE
04-12-2012, 10:56 AM
Yeah. That was a very messed up situation. Downtown Naperville is a very safe place to hang out,(you just don't want to drive when you go drinking there), so it was shocking for the whole town. Absolutely no reason for what happened. A friend of mine was working there that night as an assistant manager. He was telling me about it. The asshat who stabbed him must have been looking for some type of trouble. No other reason for him to have a knife. As I said it is a very safe place to hang out. I felt pretty bad for everyone involved that night. And a man died just trying to calm down a situation. We are not used to that around here.


The only reason I ask is because Shaun was a friend of mine. I actually used to coach him in baseball when he was in high school as a freshman/sophomore and my wife and I became really close with the family. Very tragic.

bleedpurple
04-12-2012, 11:07 AM
I'm assuming you mean AD. That was hardly a "no-brainer" pick. There were some at the draft party (including me) who wanted Brady Quinn. (Yes, I know that was stupid). But let me ask you this - would you rather have AD right now or Patrick Willis? How about Darrelle Revis? Both of those guys were drafted after AD.

2007 NFL Draft Listing - Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2007/draft.htm)

=Z=

I saw how special he is/was back at Oklahoma and was hoping he'd fall to us.... with that said, you can't say that... hindsight is 20/20... none of those guys were projected to be as good as they are... Revis wasn't even the first DB taken in the draft... It was Landry.. (i know he's a safety) but you get my point...

I was never a fan of Quinn... but looking back on it... given the state of our defense, the crappy secondary and linebacker corps, and value of running backs now adays... id' much rather have revis or willis....

But when we drafted AP back then, it was much different... Running backs were taken early and the 2-back committee wasn't as popular as it is now... Remember Marchawn Lynch was taken one pick after Willis and before revis...

VKG4LFE
04-12-2012, 11:10 AM
I saw how special he is/was back at Oklahoma and was hoping he'd fall to us.... with that said, you can't say that... hindsight is 20/20... none of those guys were projected to be as good as they are... Revis wasn't even the first DB taken in the draft... It was Landry.. (i know he's a safety) but you get my point...

I was never a fan of Quinn... but looking back on it... given the state of our defense, the crappy secondary and linebacker corps, and value of running backs now adays... id' much rather have revis or willis....

But when we drafted AP back then, it was much different... Running backs were taken early and the 2-back committee wasn't as popular as it is now... Remember Marchawn Lynch was taken one pick after Willis and before revis...


I hate to admit this now, but man did I want Brady Quinn. Ugh, good thing I'm not in the front office! haha

bleedpurple
04-12-2012, 11:13 AM
I don't think you can trash talk the Bengals anymore. They are going to be good with AJ and Andy.

Just think if we had waited on Ponder, taken an OL, CB or even a WR last year... everyone else may have fallen down and we possibly could have gotten Andy Dalton.. OR, all things being equal (in a hypothetical), could have still gotten Donovan, the skins possibly pick Ponder, and this year we may have been looking at RGIII..

All this to say, we should always stick to BPA and not reach for players of need... esp. at QB because you are so invested in the guy and by the time he develops or doesnt' your 3-4 years down the road...

VKG4LFE
04-12-2012, 11:26 AM
Just think if we had waited on Ponder, taken an OL, CB or even a WR last year... everyone else may have fallen down and we possibly could have gotten Andy Dalton.. OR, all things being equal (in a hypothetical), could have still gotten Donovan, the skins possibly pick Ponder, and this year we may have been looking at RGIII..

All this to say, we should always stick to BPA and not reach for players of need... esp. at QB because you are so invested in the guy and by the time he develops or doesnt' your 3-4 years down the road...


Yeah the bengals did a good job in that draft by getting dalton. We did not do a good job reaching for freakin ponder.

bleedpurple
04-12-2012, 11:53 AM
I hate to admit this now, but man did I want Brady Quinn. Ugh, good thing I'm not in the front office! haha


so am I... Brady Quinn?? YUCK!!! lol

VKG4LFE
04-12-2012, 12:11 PM
so am I... Brady Quinn?? YUCK!!! lol


haha it seemed like a good idea at the time. We had no qb and AD was injury prone. haha

marshallvike
04-13-2012, 07:08 AM
The only reason I ask is because Shaun was a friend of mine. I actually used to coach him in baseball when he was in high school as a freshman/sophomore and my wife and I became really close with the family. Very tragic.

Sorry for your loss VKG, and prayers to his family.

VKG4LFE
04-13-2012, 07:36 AM
[QUOTE=marshallvike;1122090]Sorry for your loss VKG, and prayers to his family.[/QUOTE

Thanks Marshall.

NodakPaul
04-13-2012, 08:35 AM
Interesting. Now the real question is how does Spielman's track record compare to that of the rest of the league. I don't have the time to do the research, but my guess is that it is about average. I posted in another thread all of the draft picks from 2006 on, and about 30% of them were decent value picks for the spot selected. That is pretty good IMHO. It probably drops off a little if you just go 2007 an on, but then again, many players don't come into their own until year three or four, so that is a hard analysis.

A lot of people complain about Spielman, and I understand it - but at the same time, I don't know if we are holding him to a decent standard or not. I think that last year was the first draft that he truly put his stamp on, and it is too early to tell with that class. I think Ponder and Rudolph have the most chance of turning into above average players. Ballard looked good and bad at times... but the rest I couldn't pick out of a crowd. I think I saw Burton in a couple of games, and I remember Mistryl (sp?) Raymond breaking the Vikings INT dry spell against Washington last year. But the rest of the names I don't even recognize. Doesn't mean anything at this point though - they probably didn't see the field their rookie year.

So that puts us at 3 out of 10 with potential (which is coincidentally 30%)... Seems par for the course to me.

NodakPaul
04-13-2012, 08:41 AM
Yeah the bengals did a good job in that draft by getting dalton. We did not do a good job reaching for freakin ponder.

Hindsight is 20/20, and keep in mind that Dalton had AJ Green to throw to. And while the Bengal's OL was horrible at run blocking, they were actually decent at pass protection, something that Ponder did not have last year.

Fix our OL and get a true #1 WR to complement Harvin and out TE sets, and I think Ponder will surprise a lot of people.

mountainviking
04-13-2012, 10:17 AM
The thing with the draft is every pick is a gamble to some extent. Going on a rough estimate, what would you say the League-wide percentage of first round picks who work out to be as good as hoped is? 50%? Maybe, 60%?

OK, so lets guess that about %60 of first round picks work out, but that number goes down significantly as you go through the rounds. I'd guess that by the 7th round we're looking at more of a %5 success ratio. So perhaps, you could roughly estimate that every 16 picks, or half a round, your chances of making a successful pick goes down by about %5...even with lowered expectations for late picks. So, you're generally looking at a success rate of:

First half of the first round, %60
2nd half of the first round, %55
Top half of the 2nd, %50
2nd half of the 2nd, %45
Top of the third, %40
Later third picks, %35
and so on down the line. Other than 2005 when we batted a zero thanks to McDick's cost cutting on scouts etc, and 2006 when we reached big time for Cook and TJack thanks to Chiller and Foley's follies, I'd bet we're right in those averages, and perhaps, a bit better than average in some of the later rounds having hit on guys like Robison, E.Griffen, and perhaps, Ballard in the 4th; Ray Edwards and Guion in the 5th; and Joe Webb and Sullivan in the 6th.

And, with last year's lack of offseason and delayed UDFAs, we really needed to fill out our roster with some late round picks, and Spielman managed to turn our 3rd into 4 extra picks (3 6ths and a 7). Not Bad. Not Great, but not bad either.

We've only picked this early once before, and I hope it doesn't happen for another 20 years or so, but this is the draft that will define not just Spielman's legacy, but our Minnesota Vikings for the next 4 or 5 years. Here's to hoping for the best! SKOL VIKINGS!!!!!

;)

VKG4LFE
04-13-2012, 10:20 AM
Hindsight is 20/20, and keep in mind that Dalton had AJ Green to throw to. And while the Bengal's OL was horrible at run blocking, they were actually decent at pass protection, something that Ponder did not have last year.

Fix our OL and get a true #1 WR to complement Harvin and out TE sets, and I think Ponder will surprise a lot of people.

I hope so, but I'm definitely not going to hold my breath on this guy.

YouthVikesFan
04-13-2012, 10:31 AM
The thing with the draft is every pick is a gamble to some extent. Going on a rough estimate, what would you say the League-wide percentage of first round picks who work out to be as good as hoped is? 50%? Maybe, 60%?

OK, so lets guess that about %60 of first round picks work out, but that number goes down significantly as you go through the rounds. I'd guess that by the 7th round we're looking at more of a %5 success ratio. So perhaps, you could roughly estimate that every 16 picks, or half a round, your chances of making a successful pick goes down by about %5...even with lowered expectations for late picks. So, you're generally looking at a success rate of:

First half of the first round, %60
2nd half of the first round, %55
Top half of the 2nd, %50
2nd half of the 2nd, %45
Top of the third, %40
Later third picks, %35
and so on down the line. Other than 2005 when we batted a zero thanks to McDick's cost cutting on scouts etc, and 2006 when we reached big time for Cook and TJack thanks to Chiller and Foley's follies, I'd bet we're right in those averages, and perhaps, a bit better than average in some of the later rounds having hit on guys like Robison, E.Griffen, and perhaps, Ballard in the 4th; Ray Edwards and Guion in the 5th; and Joe Webb and Sullivan in the 6th.

And, with last year's lack of offseason and delayed UDFAs, we really needed to fill out our roster with some late round picks, and Spielman managed to turn our 3rd into 4 extra picks (3 6ths and a 7). Not Bad. Not Great, but not bad either.

We've only picked this early once before, and I hope it doesn't happen for another 20 years or so, but this is the draft that will define not just Spielman's legacy, but our Minnesota Vikings for the next 4 or 5 years. Here's to hoping for the best! SKOL VIKINGS!!!!!

;)

+1 good post

bleedpurple
04-13-2012, 10:57 AM
Interesting. Now the real question is how does Spielman's track record compare to that of the rest of the league. I don't have the time to do the research, but my guess is that it is about average. I posted in another thread all of the draft picks from 2006 on, and about 30% of them were decent value picks for the spot selected. That is pretty good IMHO. It probably drops off a little if you just go 2007 an on, but then again, many players don't come into their own until year three or four, so that is a hard analysis.

A lot of people complain about Spielman, and I understand it - but at the same time, I don't know if we are holding him to a decent standard or not. I think that last year was the first draft that he truly put his stamp on, and it is too early to tell with that class. I think Ponder and Rudolph have the most chance of turning into above average players. Ballard looked good and bad at times... but the rest I couldn't pick out of a crowd. I think I saw Burton in a couple of games, and I remember Mistryl (sp?) Raymond breaking the Vikings INT dry spell against Washington last year. But the rest of the names I don't even recognize. Doesn't mean anything at this point though - they probably didn't see the field their rookie year.

So that puts us at 3 out of 10 with potential (which is coincidentally 30%)... Seems par for the course to me.

i think the biggest issue with Spielman is not necessarily the success rate, bc it's about average, but it's the lack of success in rounds past 4. Not to mention a few flops in the 2nd and 3rd round. Bad or questionable trades and the positions he's drafted..

for example, we didn't need toby gerhart in the 2nd, but we gave up 2 2nd round picks to move up to get him when we needed depth at other positions... he's a decent player but he's a slower version of AP in his running style...

Or taking Rudolph when we have Shuler and Shank on the roster... When we may need a DL or OL or LB..

Ignoring the offensive line until very late in the drafts...

So in addition to the success rate, he drafts questionable positions when a player of equal value in a position of need is sitting there... not to mention over valuing players i.e. TJack or Gerhart giving up valuable 2nd and 3rd round picks when those guys would have been sitting there...

So i think it's just the overall thought process to the draft in addition to the success rate of drafts...

bleedpurple
04-13-2012, 11:05 AM
The thing with the draft is every pick is a gamble to some extent. Going on a rough estimate, what would you say the League-wide percentage of first round picks who work out to be as good as hoped is? 50%? Maybe, 60%?

OK, so lets guess that about %60 of first round picks work out, but that number goes down significantly as you go through the rounds. I'd guess that by the 7th round we're looking at more of a %5 success ratio. So perhaps, you could roughly estimate that every 16 picks, or half a round, your chances of making a successful pick goes down by about %5...even with lowered expectations for late picks. So, you're generally looking at a success rate of:

First half of the first round, %60
2nd half of the first round, %55
Top half of the 2nd, %50
2nd half of the 2nd, %45
Top of the third, %40
Later third picks, %35
and so on down the line. Other than 2005 when we batted a zero thanks to McDick's cost cutting on scouts etc, and 2006 when we reached big time for Cook and TJack thanks to Chiller and Foley's follies, I'd bet we're right in those averages, and perhaps, a bit better than average in some of the later rounds having hit on guys like Robison, E.Griffen, and perhaps, Ballard in the 4th; Ray Edwards and Guion in the 5th; and Joe Webb and Sullivan in the 6th.

And, with last year's lack of offseason and delayed UDFAs, we really needed to fill out our roster with some late round picks, and Spielman managed to turn our 3rd into 4 extra picks (3 6ths and a 7). Not Bad. Not Great, but not bad either.

We've only picked this early once before, and I hope it doesn't happen for another 20 years or so, but this is the draft that will define not just Spielman's legacy, but our Minnesota Vikings for the next 4 or 5 years. Here's to hoping for the best! SKOL VIKINGS!!!!!

;)

maybe so... but the lack of hits on late round picks.. other than Sully... We may have 1 or 2 other starters or key player contributing on our team drafted after the 4th round in the last 5 years...

Not to mention how he's neglected the o-line, LB, Safety until late rounds, whiffed on just about every drafted corner and drafted our only 2 rb's in the early rounds... (not complaining about AP)

he over value's players quite a bit too

jmcdon00
04-13-2012, 04:09 PM
I'm assuming you mean AD. That was hardly a "no-brainer" pick. There were some at the draft party (including me) who wanted Brady Quinn. (Yes, I know that was stupid). But let me ask you this - would you rather have AD right now or Patrick Willis? How about Darrelle Revis? Both of those guys were drafted after AD.

2007 NFL Draft Listing - Pro-Football-Reference.com (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2007/draft.htm)

=Z=
Going forward sure, Peterson is coming off major surgery. Looking back at the last 5 years though Peterson was as good as anyone in the 07 draft.

Johnson14
04-13-2012, 04:23 PM
There were some good players taken in first 2 rounds in '07.. not really pertinent to this thread but just saying. lol

singersp
04-13-2012, 09:01 PM
There were some at the draft party (including me) who wanted Brady Quinn. (Yes, I know that was stupid).[/url]

=Z=

I remember that & if I recall correctly your preference was also recorded on tape & published on Vikings.com.

But don't feel too bad, there were people here on PP.O that wanted the Vikings to trade up to take JaMarcus Russell.

VKG4LFE
04-13-2012, 09:37 PM
I remember that & if I recall correctly your preference was also recorded on tape & published on Vikings.com.

But don't feel too bad, there were people here on PP.O that wanted the Vikings to trade up to take JaMarcus Russell.

haha i remember that. I was on the news talking to my brother and i wanted quinn and he wanted ad. He won. haha

singersp
04-13-2012, 09:53 PM
In Spielman's defense though, we can't hang 100% of the drafts since 2007 solely on him since he wasn't the GM & didn't get the final say.

This year however, it's all on him.

Does anyone care to analyze his dismal FA moves?

If I had to say something good about his FA period thus far, I'm just glad he did pursue a trade for Tebow.

VKG4LFE
04-13-2012, 09:58 PM
haha, yeah not having Tebow is a good thing, we don't need that shit show to go on every week. He does win though....somehow.

kevoncox
04-13-2012, 11:05 PM
We really need to pick a side of the ball and focus on in this draft. Trying to fix an entire team in a draft is a sure fire way to fail. If we go LT, WR, CB, WR, DT with our first 5 picks it will make me a happy man. Next year we can address Saftey with a high pick CB again if needed, DE, LB,...

We would have
QB - Ponder - Franchise
RB - Peterson - Franchise
FB - Whoever - Average
WR - Harvin + Jeffery + Tommy Streeter/Ty HIlton/ Quick/ Greg Childs (I hope) 2 Franchise and an average
TE - 2 Franchise TE
LT - Khalil (i hope) Franchise
LG - Johnson Average
C - Sully - Above Average
RG - ?
RT - Loadholt - Above Average


RDE - Franchise
DT - Franchise
DT - Above Average
LDE - Average

Will - Franchise
Mike - Above Average
Sam - ?

CB - Cook -Franchise
CB - Rookie - Above Average
Saftey - Franchise
Saftey - ?

My point is focus on primaryly 1 side of the ball, and then do the opposite next year. Use draft year 3 to iron out deficiencies that your misses may have made.

Purple Floyd
04-14-2012, 08:56 AM
Cook is a franchise CB?

singersp
04-14-2012, 10:28 AM
Cook is a franchise CB?

I didn't get that far. I quit after he claimed Ponder as franchise & Loadholt as above average. Sullivan being above average is questionable as well.

How many games did Ponder win again?

kevoncox
04-14-2012, 10:56 AM
I didn't get that far. I quit after he claimed Ponder as franchise & Loadholt as above average. Sullivan being above average is questionable as well.

How many games did Ponder win again?

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. These would be how the Francise view these players. Not my own. In two years, the Franchise will not be ready to give up on Ponder and he has been given the "throne"
While I believe that he is an above average QB - he is our Franchise QB.

Loadholt is a bit better than Average. He is a talented RT who has not lived up to potential. Again. He will not be replaced anytime so. His spot on the line is not cemented like Ponders so I gave him the above average moniker. Sorry I wasn't clear.

mountainviking
04-14-2012, 02:05 PM
My point is focus on primarily 1 side of the ball, and then do the opposite next year. Use draft year 3 to iron out deficiencies that your misses may have made.

I'm thinking that too, and I'm thinking Offense takes longer to "gel" and grow "chemistry and continuity," but perhaps more importantly, IF we don't improve blocking AND our threat of a deep pass, we'll have 2 more excuses to stick with Ponder and Webb as our 1-2. IF we give them the help we think they need, and they still don't show progress, then we'll have a better idea earlier whether we need to draft QB again.

Maybe, even collecting a pick or two for next year to set us up to either A: focus on upgrading multiple defensive positions, or B: move up to get a better option at QB.

i_bleed_purple
04-14-2012, 06:30 PM
While I believe that he is an above average QB

He was statistically one of the bottom-10 starting QB's in the league... with McNabb being one of the guys who might have been worse.

kevoncox
04-14-2012, 09:26 PM
He was statistically one of the bottom-10 starting QB's in the league... with McNabb being one of the guys who might have been worse.

He also lacks considerable weapons. I mean besides the Oline that we have, he needs more WRs. I still think he can turn it around and be a serviceable QB - think Matt Hassellbeck

NodakPaul
04-15-2012, 08:44 AM
I didn't get that far. I quit after he claimed Ponder as franchise & Loadholt as above average. Sullivan being above average is questionable as well.

How many games did Ponder win again?

The exact same number of games that Peyton Manning did his first year as a rookie. And Manning was arguably surrounded by more talent on offense. BTW, Manning also had more INTs than TDs his rookie year, and the team averaged only 19 points per game.

Now I am not saying that Ponder is the next Manning. Let me repeat that because somebody is going to go there - I am not saying that Ponder is the next Manning. But I am saying that anyone who is looking at Ponder's stats from his rookie year and dismissing him as a QB is being more than a little premature.

Ponder came into a system with no offseason prep, offensive line problems, and only one WR (who is a slot, not a primary). There were times when his play showed a lot of potential, there were times when we collectively groaned as a fan base. I think he showed enough promise to warrant his continued starting this year, and I fully expect him to continue to mature as he grows with the system. If not, he can go the way of Tarvaris...

Zeus
04-15-2012, 10:24 AM
The exact same number of games that Peyton Manning did his first year as a rookie. And Manning was arguably surrounded by more talent on offense. BTW, Manning also had more INTs than TDs his rookie year, and the team averaged only 19 points per game.

I can't believe you think Ponder is the next Manning!

=Z=

Purple Floyd
04-15-2012, 11:21 AM
I'm thinking that too, and I'm thinking Offense takes longer to "gel" and grow "chemistry and continuity," but perhaps more importantly, IF we don't improve blocking AND our threat of a deep pass, we'll have 2 more excuses to stick with Ponder and Webb as our 1-2. IF we give them the help we think they need, and they still don't show progress, then we'll have a better idea earlier whether we need to draft QB again.

Maybe, even collecting a pick or two for next year to set us up to either A: focus on upgrading multiple defensive positions, or B: move up to get a better option at QB.


That must be true because with the exception of the one year with a healthy Brett we have been waiting for the offense to gel since Culpepper was here.

jargomcfargo
04-15-2012, 11:33 AM
I can't believe you think Ponder is the next Manning!

=Z=
LOL =Z=
Good to see you posting again.

singersp
04-16-2012, 06:23 AM
Ponder came into a system with no offseason prep, offensive line problems, and only one WR (who is a slot, not a primary). There were times when his play showed a lot of potential, there were times when we collectively groaned as a fan base. I think he showed enough promise to warrant his continued starting this year, and I fully expect him to continue to mature as he grows with the system. If not, he can go the way of Tarvaris...


If he goes the way of Tarvaris, then I hope they don't make the same mistake they did with him. Play him to find out what you have & see if he'll ever pan out rather than let him sit on the bench behind more aged veterans for 3 more years not knowing if he improved or not.

singersp
04-16-2012, 06:33 AM
The exact same number of games that Peyton Manning did his first year as a rookie.

Actually Manning won 3 games his first year. 2 of our 3 wins came behind the arms of McNabb & Webb, not Ponder.

In the one win we did have behind Ponder, we were fortunate that the Panthers missed the FG to give us the win.

singersp
04-16-2012, 06:50 AM
That must be true because with the exception of the one year with a healthy Brett we have been waiting for the offense to gel since Culpepper was here.

+1

And not one of those OL men from the 2005 team are still starting for us, nor are any starters from the 2006, 2007 or 2008 team. Only Sullivan & Loadholt remain. Both started in 2009.

We are at square 1 again with our OL & haven't accomplished shit in the past 7 years after investing over $100 million dollars into it never to see it gel.

Like I've said before, if the OL scheme is complicated to the point it takes years before the linemen grasp it & gel, it isn't worth running because you won't retain the same personnel long enough to reap the rewards from it.

Purple Floyd
04-16-2012, 07:09 AM
+1



And not one of those OL men from the 2005 team are still starting for us, nor are any starters from the 2006, 2007 or 2008 team. Only Sullivan & Loadholt remain. Both started in 2009.

We are at square 1 again with our OL & haven't accomplished shit in the past 7 years after investing over $100 million dollars into it never to see it gel.

Like I've said before, if the OL scheme is complicated to the point it takes years before the linemen grasp it & gel, it isn't worth running because you won't retain the same personnel long enough to reap the rewards from it.

Yeah, that is where I am at too. I think that our lack of production from the OL is more a product of the scheme and coaching than it is the lack of elite talent. The unit works as a group and you need guys that compliment each other and can work off each other more than you need stand alone talent. And more importantly you need great coaching to get them to know their role and understand how to what the guy next to them is doing and how that impacts their decisions.

NodakPaul
04-16-2012, 08:47 AM
Actually Manning won 3 games his first year. 2 of our 3 wins came behind the arms of McNabb & Webb, not Ponder.

In the one win we did have behind Ponder, we were fortunate that the Panthers missed the FG to give us the win.

Good point, although my statement still holds true - evaluating Ponder after 9 1/2 games in his rookie year is premature.

I am looking forward to seeing how he can perform this year.

C Mac D
04-16-2012, 10:37 AM
This about sums it up for me... I know Caine will enjoy the irony of this as well:

Mark Wilf says Rick Spielman is the Perfect Guy to Run the Team... (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/15/mark-wilf-rick-spielman-is-the-perfect-guy-to-run-the-team/)

Anyone know where I can buy cyanide capsules?

jmcdon00
04-16-2012, 10:50 AM
This about sums it up for me... I know Caine will enjoy the irony of this as well:

Mark Wilf says Rick Spielman is the Perfect Guy to Run the Team... (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/15/mark-wilf-rick-spielman-is-the-perfect-guy-to-run-the-team/)

Anyone know where I can buy cyanide capsules?
Of course he is going to say that. Can't hardly say you don't like your recently promoted GM.

bleedpurple
04-16-2012, 11:48 AM
The exact same number of games that Peyton Manning did his first year as a rookie. And Manning was arguably surrounded by more talent on offense. BTW, Manning also had more INTs than TDs his rookie year, and the team averaged only 19 points per game.

Now I am not saying that Ponder is the next Manning. Let me repeat that because somebody is going to go there - I am not saying that Ponder is the next Manning. But I am saying that anyone who is looking at Ponder's stats from his rookie year and dismissing him as a QB is being more than a little premature.

Ponder came into a system with no offseason prep, offensive line problems, and only one WR (who is a slot, not a primary). There were times when his play showed a lot of potential, there were times when we collectively groaned as a fan base. I think he showed enough promise to warrant his continued starting this year, and I fully expect him to continue to mature as he grows with the system. If not, he can go the way of Tarvaris...

so did Cam Newton with less offensive weapons, a line and defense... and look what he did.... this whole lack of an offseason crap 949ers), or he is a rookie is ridiculous... other guys, had good success too, i.e. Matt Ryan, Flacco, Freeman, etc.

Ponder was a reach and will be an average signal caller at best... I don't see him being in the top 12-15 ever...

bleedpurple
04-16-2012, 11:50 AM
Good point, although my statement still holds true - evaluating Ponder after 9 1/2 games in his rookie year is premature.

I am looking forward to seeing how he can perform this year.

we should go with Webb... He was clearly better than Ponder based on games played last year...

bleedpurple
04-16-2012, 11:53 AM
Of course he is going to say that. Can't hardly say you don't like your recently promoted GM.

He could have plead the 5th......

NodakPaul
04-16-2012, 12:00 PM
Ponder was a reach and will be an average signal caller at best... I don't see him being in the top 12-15 ever...

You have absolutely no way of being certain of that.

NodakPaul
04-16-2012, 12:12 PM
we should go with Webb... He was clearly better than Ponder based on games played last year...

"Clearly"? I don't think he was "clearly" better or worse than Ponder. I like Webb, and I am not going to write him off, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

The best we can say about Webb right now is that he is more consistent than Ponder - his highs are not as high but his lows are not as low. Both Webb and Ponder have about the same ability to scramble, and their average stats are damn near identical.

I don't think either one is "clearly" better than the other. Personally, I think that Ponder has more potential, but that remains to be seen. I think that a real offseason and training camp will go a long way to determining the true front runner. Although I also believe strongly that the job is Ponder's to lose right now regardless of how well Webb does this offseason - that is simply the nature of the game.

C Mac D
04-16-2012, 12:21 PM
Starting to get back to the old PPO. Love it.

I think Ponder will be an average QB in the NFL... his style is sorta reminiscent of Jeff Garcia and I'm guessing his career will be too.

bleedpurple
04-16-2012, 12:24 PM
You have absolutely no way of being certain of that.

TRUE... but I'm looking into my crystal ball and that's what it says...

In all seriousness I'm not a big fan... he reminds me of Rocky and I think we drafted him entirely too early, with Rosenfels and Webb on the roster... If he was there later in the first or early second, fine.. but at 11?? that was a panic move IMO...

tastywaves
04-16-2012, 12:25 PM
"Clearly"? I don't think he was "clearly" better or worse than Ponder. I like Webb, and I am not going to write him off, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

The best we can say about Webb right now is that he is more consistent than Ponder - his highs are not as high but his lows are not as low. Both Webb and Ponder have about the same ability to scramble, and their average stats are damn near identical.

I don't think either one is "clearly" better than the other. Personally, I think that Ponder has more potential, but that remains to be seen. I think that a real offseason and training camp will go a long way to determining the true front runner. Although I also believe strongly that the job is Ponder's to lose right now regardless of how well Webb does this offseason - that is simply the nature of the game.

I agree that Ponder has more potential. I would be careful on judging the future greatness/ungreatliness with the likes of Ponder and Cam after one season. I'm not sold on either one of them from what we saw last season as a great indicator.

I believe that a guy like Cam Newton can come into the league and be very productive from the beginning. His unique talents don't require a lifelong appreciation for the nuances of defenses and complex offenses to be productive. He is using his talents to win at this point. What I'm not sold on is that he keeps getting better. Not saying he won't, but I didn't see anything from him that convinced me he will only get better. And if you don't continually get better, you are getting worse. But that's another topic.

Webb is a strong competitor with amazing physical talents, but I see an extremely raw product when he's on the field. For what we had on offense last year, this made him the better candidate, but I very much doubt he will get us where we want to go. Ponder I believe has a better chance and should be the guy we roll the dice on and find out if he can be that guy.

bleedpurple
04-16-2012, 12:31 PM
"Clearly"? I don't think he was "clearly" better or worse than Ponder. I like Webb, and I am not going to write him off, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

The best we can say about Webb right now is that he is more consistent than Ponder - his highs are not as high but his lows are not as low. Both Webb and Ponder have about the same ability to scramble, and their average stats are damn near identical.

I don't think either one is "clearly" better than the other. Personally, I think that Ponder has more potential, but that remains to be seen. I think that a real offseason and training camp will go a long way to determining the true front runner. Although I also believe strongly that the job is Ponder's to lose right now regardless of how well Webb does this offseason - that is simply the nature of the game.

Ahead of ourselves??? Webb clearly played better than Ponder in damn near every game... granted he may not be as talented of a passer, yet, but moved the ball way better than Ponder did, a few times bc he was benched...

I wouldn't say his high's are not as high... I thought his highs were about as high as you can get when he played well...

Webb is a superior scrambler and runner... c'mon Nodak that's not even close... Ponder and Webb scramble ability isnt' close..

Ponder is more accurate I'll give you that... but Webb is more a threat running and throws a better deep ball....

Your right, one isn't better than the other one.. which is the PROBLEM since one was a 6th round pick and the other was a 1st rounder....

So in that last paragraph you made my point!!

tastywaves
04-16-2012, 12:38 PM
Starting to get back to the old PPO. Love it.

I think Ponder will be an average QB in the NFL... his style is sorta reminiscent of Jeff Garcia and I'm guessing his career will be too.

Very possible. Tough SOB, managed to get W's for his team although a bit ugly, and great taste in women which in his case is a real complement.

I can remember a number of years where having Garcia leading our team would have been a major upgrade.

Ponder is smart, athletic, competitive and appears to put in the work. His throwing accuracy and strength appear more middle of the road at this point and his decision making still has a ways to go as expected. It would not surprise me at all if he becomes a 10 year franchise guy for the Vikings just as it wouldn't surprise me to see him fade off in mediocrity with the staff around him molding his future.

bleedpurple
04-16-2012, 12:44 PM
Very possible. Tough SOB, managed to get W's for his team although a bit ugly, and great taste in women which in his case is a real complement.

I can remember a number of years where having Garcia leading our team would have been a major upgrade.

Ponder is smart, athletic, competitive and appears to put in the work. His throwing accuracy and strength appear more middle of the road at this point and his decision making still has a ways to go as expected. It would not surprise me at all if he becomes a 10 year franchise guy for the Vikings just as it wouldn't surprise me to see him fade off in mediocrity with the staff around him molding his future.

In the next 3-4 years, we'll have a new coach and / or GM who will want "his-guy"....

tastywaves
04-16-2012, 12:56 PM
Hopefully it won't take that long if this cast proves to be what most suspect.

But under that premise, everything other discussion point is pretty meaningless.

NodakPaul
04-16-2012, 01:30 PM
Ahead of ourselves??? Webb clearly played better than Ponder in damn near every game... granted he may not be as talented of a passer, yet, but moved the ball way better than Ponder did, a few times bc he was benched...

I wouldn't say his high's are not as high... I thought his highs were about as high as you can get when he played well...

Webb is a superior scrambler and runner... c'mon Nodak that's not even close... Ponder and Webb scramble ability isnt' close..

Ponder is more accurate I'll give you that... but Webb is more a threat running and throws a better deep ball....

Your right, one isn't better than the other one.. which is the PROBLEM since one was a 6th round pick and the other was a 1st rounder....

So in that last paragraph you made my point!!

I honestly don't know what games you are referring to with Webb. None of his games have been anything special. The game against Washington, when he rushed for over 100 yards was probably his best. However, that game is an outlier. Every other game he rushed four or five times, averaging about 6 yards per rush. Just like Ponder as it turns out. Ponder's ability to move around in and out of the pocket was one of the more surprising things about him last year.

Go back and look at game tape as well as stats - Webb and Ponder were pretty close in effectiveness in almost every game that they played. There is no way you can say that one clearly played better than the other.

Webb looks good IMHO because our expectations for a 6rd pick originally drafted as a WR were low, and he came out and played decently. Ponder, on the other hand, was a 12th overall pick, and for good or bad, our collective expectations were higher. Honestly, I never expected him to perform at a high level last year. I am a firm believer that a QB's performance his rookie year is not indicative of what his career will be like.

I think the best move for this season is to go into training camp with Ponder the starter and Webb the situational backup. I could be wrong, but I think the play of both warrants one season to find out.

bleedpurple
04-16-2012, 01:51 PM
I honestly don't know what games you are referring to with Webb. None of his games have been anything special. The game against Washington, when he rushed for over 100 yards was probably his best. However, that game is an outlier. Every other game he rushed four or five times, averaging about 6 yards per rush. Just like Ponder as it turns out. Ponder's ability to move around in and out of the pocket was one of the more surprising things about him last year.

Go back and look at game tape as well as stats - Webb and Ponder were pretty close in effectiveness in almost every game that they played. There is no way you can say that one clearly played better than the other.

Webb looks good IMHO because our expectations for a 6rd pick originally drafted as a WR were low, and he came out and played decently. Ponder, on the other hand, was a 12th overall pick, and for good or bad, our collective expectations were higher. Honestly, I never expected him to perform at a high level last year. I am a firm believer that a QB's performance his rookie year is not indicative of what his career will be like.

I think the best move for this season is to go into training camp with Ponder the starter and Webb the situational backup. I could be wrong, but I think the play of both warrants one season to find out.

The scrambling is rather similar in averages, but if you look at the tape, half the time, Ponder didn't even try to throw the ball... He dropped back and starting running it... Webb, scrambling was different, IMO, where he did it under duress.. Ponder was under it at times, but I thought he took off way too early and too often when his first read wasn't there...

I remember the last few games Webb actually got in the game for were bc either ponder got hurt or played so bad that they benched him for Webb.... He didn't play a whole lot, but he did move the ball relatively better than Ponder did when He was in the game...

Specifically, Detroit, NO, Washington, and Chicago.... Granted all this is speculation... But I just don't see Ponder as the answer.. Hopefully I'm wrong...

NodakPaul
04-16-2012, 04:50 PM
The scrambling is rather similar in averages, but if you look at the tape, half the time, Ponder didn't even try to throw the ball... He dropped back and starting running it... Webb, scrambling was different, IMO, where he did it under duress.. Ponder was under it at times, but I thought he took off way too early and too often when his first read wasn't there...

I remember the last few games Webb actually got in the game for were bc either ponder got hurt or played so bad that they benched him for Webb.... He didn't play a whole lot, but he did move the ball relatively better than Ponder did when He was in the game...

Specifically, Detroit, NO, Washington, and Chicago.... Granted all this is speculation... But I just don't see Ponder as the answer.. Hopefully I'm wrong...

I don't believe (although I could be wrong) that Ponder was ever benched because of play. He was benched because of a concussion... And to be fair, the backup usually does have some immediate success when put into a game in relief - mostly because the other team has not necessarily prepared for them. We saw that particular effect quite a bit with Tarvaris.

You are correct though, when Ponder would scramble he would tuck and run, whereas Webb constantly looks to throw the ball. The end effect ends up being about the same though.

singersp
04-17-2012, 06:11 AM
Starting to get back to the old PPO. Love it.

I think Ponder will be an average QB in the NFL... his style is sorta reminiscent of Jeff Garcia and I'm guessing his career will be too.

A Tommy Kramer mentality in a Steve Dils body.

Marrdro
04-22-2012, 05:23 AM
I did some quick and dirty analysis and here's what it shows... Although Spielman can't be solely held accountable for this ridiculous draft history he did have a part in it.....

Spielman came in 2007 and in that time out of 36 draft picks, he's selected 11 starters. 1 is not on the team anymore, and 2 are starting due to injury.

1. AP (2007)
2. Sid Rice (2007) - No longer with team
3. Brian Robison (2007)
4. John Sullivan (2008)
5. Percy Harvin (2009)
6. Phil Loadholt (2009)
7. Jamarca Sanford (2009) - Questionable starter
8. Chris Cook (2010)
9. Christian Ponder (2011)
10. Kyle Rudolph (2011)
11. Mistral Raymond (2011) - Shouldn't be starting

3 picks not included in above total went toward Jaren Allen in 2008.

Additionally, 8 of those 36 are consistent contributors on the team.

1. Letroy Guion (2008) - may start
2. Asher Allen (2009)
3. Jasper Brinkley (2009) - might start this year
4. Toby Gerhart (2010)
5. Everson Griffen (2010)
6. Joe Webb (2010)
7. Christian Ballard (2011)
8. Brandon Burton (2011)

Lastly, and probably more troubling, there is exactly two starters and possibly four potential starters were drafted by us past the fourth round.

if you take away the no-brainer stars and potential stars by Spielman and Company such as Adrian Peterson, Percy Harvin, Kyle Rudolph (man, I thought there would be more) it gets worse... I like Ponder, but he's far from a potential star and many think Joe Webb is a better option at QB..

Here is a breakdown by position
4 Quarter Backs - 2 have potential 50%
3 Offensive Tackles - 1 starter 33%
2 Centers - 1 starter 50%
2 Running Backs - both good 100%
2 Tight Ends - Both good 100%
6 Wide Receivers - 2 starters 1 lost to FA 17%

4 Defensive Ends - 3 are good 75%
4 Corner Backs - 1 is competent 25% (asher allen sucks sorry!!)
1 Defensive Tackles - Guion gets his chance --%
5 Linebackers - 1 starter 25% 1 converted to FB
3 Safetys - 1 starter all are bad 33%

all in all, basically Spielman knows how to draft RB's, TE's and DE's. The remaining positions he has sucked balls at....

Bottom line, along with poor coaching this is how a team goes 3-13.
Good stuff my friend, but another metric (way to analyze a pick) isn't so much that they are a starter, but do they rotate in and out.

Other than QB and OL, no other position has a "Designated" starter. All other positions rotate based on situation.

If you look at it in that light, except for the 2007 fiasco, Ricky boy hasn't done that bad a job. Truth be told, as I did once, if you compare his picks vs other teams, he is actually a bit better than alot of teams people perceive to be "Good" at the draft.

Having said that.....My perception.



2011
1
1
12
12
Christian Ponder
QB
Starter



2
2
11
43
Kyle Rudolph
TE
Rotated last year. Will start this year



3
4
9
106
Christian Ballard
DT
Rotated.



4
5
8
139
Brandon Burton
DB
Rotated



5
6
3
168
Demarcus Love
G
Jury still out



6
6
5
170
Mistral Raymond
DB
Rotated. Could be a starter this year



7
6
7
172
Brandon Fusco
C
Jury still out



8
6
35
200
Ross Homan
LB
Jury still out



9
7
12
215
D'Aundre Reed
DE
Jury still out



10
7
33
236
Stephen Burton
WR
Rotated. Could see increased role this year


2010
1
2
2
34
Chris Cook
DB
Starter



2
2
19
51
Toby Gerhart
RB
Started when AD went down. Could start on most teams. Rotates.



3
4
2
100
Everson Griffin
DE
Rotates. Absolute stud. He's a gunner on ST's for goodness sake. A DE. A gunner



4
5
30
161
Chris DeGeare
G
Jury still out. Has rotated in.



5
5
36
167
Nathan Triplett
LB
Jury still out. Has rotated in.



6
6
30
199
Joe Webb
QB
Has started. Nice option as backup.



7
7
7
214
Mickey Shuler
TE
Has rotated. Could see increased role this year



8
7
30
237
Ryan D'Imperio
LB
Who knows. Got playing time under a O-coord who says he doesn't use FB's.


2009
1
1
22
22
Percy Harvin
WR
Starter



2
2
22
54
Phil Loadholt
T
Starter



3
3
22
86
Asher Allen
DB
Started and then, turned into a head case.



4
5
14
150
Jasper Brinkley
LB
Started, rotated and will/could be MLB starter this year.



5
7
22
231
Jamarca Sanford
DB
Started. Could still be starter. Has rotated.


2008
1
2
12
43
Tyrell Johnson
DB
Started. Rotated. Head case.



2
5
2
137
John David Booty
QB
Bust. Happens with Qb's.



3
5
17
152
Letroy Guion
DT
Started. Rotated. Will see increased role this year.



4
6
21
187
John Sullivan
C
Starter. Proved a lot of you fans wrong.



5
6
27
193
Jaymar Johnson
WR
Can't figure this cat out. Bust.


2007
1
1
7
7
Adrian Peterson
RB
Starter



2
2
12
44
Sidney Rice
WR
Starter



3
3
8
72
Marcus McCauley
DB
Starter. Turned into headcase.



4
4
3
102
Brian Robison
DE
Starter. Proved me wrong.



5
5
9
146
Aundrae Allison
WR
Head case.



6
6
2
176
Rufus Alexander
LB
Injury took him out before we could find out.



7
7
7
217
Tyler Thigpen
QB
Starter for other teams.



8
7
23
233
Chandler Williams
WR
Bust.

Marrdro
04-22-2012, 05:27 AM
Just because 11 of them happen to be starting, doesn't mean they're good proven players. It simply means they're starting because that's the best we have at that position.

Of those 11, how many would you claim are good, proven starters? I'd say 5-6.
A good way to look at is to see how many leave our team and actually get picked up by other teams.

Other than Rufus (he had a career ender) everyone has landed some place else. A few were then cut and a few did make it with those teams.

Long story short, even the ones that landed someplace else and were cut, showed enough promise for another team to give them a shot so it could be said that the talent was there. The Head just got in the way, as is the case with cats like AA and McCauley.

kevoncox
04-22-2012, 08:22 AM
Marr,
Just because a player started for us at one point doesn't make our decision to draft them a good one. There are several players on our roster that other teams won't sniff.

Just look at our DB situation. How many did we let go of. How many have been signed by other teams. We have started some terrible players, which makes them terrible draft picks.

Your love for Griffen is unfounded. Yes he has straight line speed but he is terrible in space and I hope the LB experiment ends soon.

Also you neglected to mention the impact some of these draft picks had on the franchise. Take the idiotic decision to trade up and draft a damn back up running back. Now what was the name of that Running back that Houston drafted with the pick we moved up from....Ben Tate.

Marrdro
04-23-2012, 04:28 PM
Marr,
Just because a player started for us at one point doesn't make our decision to draft them a good one. There are several players on our roster that other teams won't sniff.

Just look at our DB situation. How many did we let go of. How many have been signed by other teams. We have started some terrible players, which makes them terrible draft picks.

Your love for Griffen is unfounded. Yes he has straight line speed but he is terrible in space and I hope the LB experiment ends soon.

Also you neglected to mention the impact some of these draft picks had on the franchise. Take the idiotic decision to trade up and draft a damn back up running back. Now what was the name of that Running back that Houston drafted with the pick we moved up from....Ben Tate.
How do you think Tate would work in our scheme?

Don't get me wrong, I agree that we make some bone headed moves, but for the most part the players we draft fit our scheme and contribute, in most cases right away. Heck, truth of the matter is, you guys are very very very quick to judge how good a player is, when in most cases he wouldn't even be on the field.

I completely disagree with you on Griff and space. I think my assessment will bear me out this year and you will come around to my way of thinking. That is, if they use him the right way.