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singersp
03-20-2012, 06:13 AM
Bob Sansevere: Vikings GM Rick Spielman appears to like Mo Claborne over Matt Kalil

Bob Sansevere: Vikings GM Rick Spielman appears to like Mo Claborne over Matt Kalil - TwinCities.com (http://www.twincities.com/vikings/ci_20208169/bob-sansevere-rick-spielman-appears-like-mo-claborne?source=most_viewed)

singersp
03-20-2012, 06:18 AM
Here's the flaw in his [Spielman's] thinking: The quarterbacks for the Packers and Giants are either all-pro (Aaron Rodgers) or all-pro caliber (Eli Manning). Teams with elite quarterbacks don't need an all-pro at left tackle. Teams with an inexperienced quarterback, like the Vikings, have a much better chance of success when surrounded by all-pro level players, particularly at left tackle.

Either Spielman just doesn't get it or he believes Ponder is an elite, all-pro caliber QB, which explains the reach for him in the 1st a year ago.

NodakPaul
03-20-2012, 08:02 AM
Either Spielman just doesn't get it or he believes Ponder is an elite, all-pro caliber QB, which explains the reach for him in the 1st a year ago.

Or he is trying to drum up interest in the third pick to see what kind of trade can be made. Or maybe not.

My initial thought when I heard this was "NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!" But thinking about this more, I can't see how this would be anything but smoke and mirrors.

We have needs at LT and CB, no question. Even though our CB position gets a little better on paper if Cook returns, he hasn't played football for most of last year. So I get the need.

However, IMHO there is a better chance of a good CB like Kirkpatrick slipping in to the late first round where we could potentially trade up to get him than there is a good LT. Then again, I make my living writing software, not managing football teams, so what do I know. :)

C Mac D
03-20-2012, 08:50 AM
Claiborne or Kahlil would be great additions to this team. Really can't go wrong with either.

I was somewhat happy to read this today but then I realized it was Spielman, who is a total moron. Doubt we get either player.

marshallvike
03-20-2012, 09:41 AM
Rick SpielMillen may not be too sharp.

NodakPaul
03-20-2012, 09:43 AM
Claiborne or Kahlil would be great additions to this team. Really can't go wrong with either.

I was somewhat happy to read this today but then I realized it was Spielman, who is a total moron. Doubt we get either player.

lol.

I think I would be happy with either... but I think that Kalil addresses a bigger need. Now if Spielman could somehow pull off a trade for the #3 pick and still get Claborne as a result... I would be pretty impressed.

tastywaves
03-20-2012, 10:32 AM
He wanted to make the point that a left tackle doesn't have to be an all-pro or even well known for a team to be successful.

Looks like Spielman and PF are seeing eye to eye again ;)

I would prefer Kalil if we stay at #3, but wouldn't be disappointed with Claiborne. Blackmon I would put behind both of them, although he could end up being the most productive of the lot. Hard to say.

skum
03-20-2012, 10:49 AM
If this was true we would have been in for one of the LT's in free agency and we have not showed any interest, even though the market is pretty good for LT' right now.

Im sure we draft Kalil, but im not to down on the option of drafting Claiborne and signing an FA LT.

jmcdon00
03-20-2012, 10:56 AM
Claiborne can't hold a candle to last years top corner, Patrick Peterson(bigger, stronger, faster).
Blackmon can't hold a candle to last years top WR, AJ Green(bigger stronger faster).
Kalil is a true blue chip prospect, and the BPA at number 3.

Mr Anderson
03-20-2012, 11:21 AM
Claiborne can't hold a candle to last years top corner, Patrick Peterson(bigger, stronger, faster).
Blackmon can't hold a candle to last years top WR, AJ Green(bigger stronger faster).
Kalil is a true blue chip prospect, and the BPA at number 3.
While I agree with the overall sentiment of your post, I can't help but disagree with the finer points.

Claiborne is a better cover guy than Peterson is. He's not the same type of athlete or playmaker, but to say he doesn't hold a candle to him really isn't fair. There's a reason the guy is going to go top 5 in the draft. And AJ Green stronger than Blackmon? Have you seen AJ Green? The guy is one of the skinnier players in the league.

bleedpurple
03-20-2012, 12:44 PM
Either Spielman just doesn't get it or he believes Ponder is an elite, all-pro caliber QB, which explains the reach for him in the 1st a year ago.

well he did over-draft him in the first round last year... so that makes sense...

bleedpurple
03-20-2012, 12:53 PM
While I agree with the overall sentiment of your post, I can't help but disagree with the finer points.

Claiborne is a better cover guy than Peterson is. He's not the same type of athlete or playmaker, but to say he doesn't hold a candle to him really isn't fair. There's a reason the guy is going to go top 5 in the draft. And AJ Green stronger than Blackmon? Have you seen AJ Green? The guy is one of the skinnier players in the league.

AJ Green was a better prospect though.. but your right... I think blackmon will be good though.. but kinda reminds me of Mike Williams coming out of USC.. big and questionable speed... better work ethic...

You have to take Khalil.. if you overdraft a qb and have a blue chip prospect sitting there at #3 you take him... not because he is that good, but bc you protect your other two biggest investments... AP and Ponder....

I'm not mad at the claiborne pick, but yu can't take a CB over a LT even when both are in need... Besides are Secondary is soo far off i doubt he makes a difference... and we've neglected the OLine since childress was a rookie head coach....

If we had claimed Jared Gaither off waivers last year and re-signed him.. then fine but not now...

Additionally and more importantly, we don't need elite corners to play the cover-2 defense... we can find serviceable cb's later on in the draft...

WAIT... scratch that... a competent GM could find value at cb in the later rounds...

basically, outside of our first 2 picks... we have no hope...lol....

Purple Floyd
03-20-2012, 08:29 PM
well he did over-draft him in the first round last year... so that makes sense...


He was drafted after both Gabbert and locker. After seeing all 3 play I would say we got the best of the three at a later pick so if Ponder was a reach, what would you call Gabby and Locker?

Purple Floyd
03-20-2012, 08:46 PM
I understand the average rubes desire to draft a top LT. Heck, I have been after the team to upgrade the OL myself for as long as anyone. But in this draft at this spot Claiborne is the best player for us to take. And he is the best defensive player on the board.

We had a historically bad secondary last season and the defense was limited by the team not having the talent to play man coverage when the offense we faced dictated we needed to. Frazier has also stated that they want to run less zone and more man defense this year. There is no player we can take in the draft that will be a better man coverage CB than Claiborne and there is no CB in FA that fits into our budget that can do what he will be able to do.

Yes, having an elite LT would be nice, but if you look at our division we really don't have any young, elite RDE's that even call for a player like Kalil to go against. The best RDE in the division is on our team and while Peppers is a great RDE he is getting up there in age as is Vanden Bosch. The packers RDE is probably the weak link on their line and between the Lions and Packers we will see more pressure from center to the right side of our line than center left.

However, looking at the division we face 3 elite QB's and 3 very good to elite WR groups with the addition of Marshall in Chicago. There is no way we can improve our team than to bring in an elite CB that can lock down a guy like Marshall or Johnson or Cobb/Nelson and make them irrelevant.

Giving the offense more turnovers and better field position will also help Ponder and the offense more than having an elite LT will. And Claiborne can also return punts which can give the offense better field position and limit the pressure defenses can apply which will help Ponder also.

So in the end i am strongly in favor of drafting Claiborne if we stay at 3. ( I would prefer us to trade back and get extra picks personally) I want a better LT but I am not convinced we cannot get a LT that can do the job unless we draft one in the top 3. I think Martin can be the answer and he may slip to the late 1st or early second.

Purple Floyd
03-20-2012, 08:49 PM
Looks like Spielman and PF are seeing eye to eye again ;)

I would prefer Kalil if we stay at #3, but wouldn't be disappointed with Claiborne. Blackmon I would put behind both of them, although he could end up being the most productive of the lot. Hard to say.

Actually I have been on the Claiborne platform for a long time. The rest of the talking heads are finally starting to see the light.

singersp
03-20-2012, 08:59 PM
lol.

....if Spielman could somehow pull off a trade for the #3 pick and still get Claborne as a result... I would be pretty impressed.

Be careful what you wish for. Spielman could pull off "The Trade" Part 2, reminiscent of Mike Lynn.

Isn't Spielman the first GM we've had since Lynn?

Formo
03-21-2012, 12:59 AM
I understand the average rubes desire to draft a top LT. Heck, I have been after the team to upgrade the OL myself for as long as anyone. But in this draft at this spot Claiborne is the best player for us to take. And he is the best defensive player on the board.

We had a historically bad secondary last season and the defense was limited by the team not having the talent to play man coverage when the offense we faced dictated we needed to. Frazier has also stated that they want to run less zone and more man defense this year. There is no player we can take in the draft that will be a better man coverage CB than Claiborne and there is no CB in FA that fits into our budget that can do what he will be able to do.

Yes, having an elite LT would be nice, but if you look at our division we really don't have any young, elite RDE's that even call for a player like Kalil to go against. The best RDE in the division is on our team and while Peppers is a great RDE he is getting up there in age as is Vanden Bosch. The packers RDE is probably the weak link on their line and between the Lions and Packers we will see more pressure from center to the right side of our line than center left.

However, looking at the division we face 3 elite QB's and 3 very good to elite WR groups with the addition of Marshall in Chicago. There is no way we can improve our team than to bring in an elite CB that can lock down a guy like Marshall or Johnson or Cobb/Nelson and make them irrelevant.

Giving the offense more turnovers and better field position will also help Ponder and the offense more than having an elite LT will. And Claiborne can also return punts which can give the offense better field position and limit the pressure defenses can apply which will help Ponder also.

So in the end i am strongly in favor of drafting Claiborne if we stay at 3. ( I would prefer us to trade back and get extra picks personally) I want a better LT but I am not convinced we cannot get a LT that can do the job unless we draft one in the top 3. I think Martin can be the answer and he may slip to the late 1st or early second.

I would love Claiborne in purple..

IF the Vikes ditch the zone-only Tampa2.

Purple Floyd
03-21-2012, 07:21 AM
Frazier has already come out and said that they plan to play more man coverage packages if they can get the players to run it.

Incidentally, if anyone cares to go back and look at the defense that Claiborne actually played in at LSU you would see that he played a great deal of zone coverage and he did extremely well when he was in it.

The idea that he cannot be used in zone is a myth and a misrepresentation. The reason we sucked in zone is because the CB's lacked the footwork and closing speed to shrink the size of the zones the WR's operated in. With his speed and ability the zones are going to be much smaller and lead to a lower completion percentage and higher rate of turnovers because the QB's margin for error is lower.

singersp
03-21-2012, 08:02 AM
Frazier has already come out and said that they plan to play more man coverage packages if they can get the players to run it.

Incidentally, if anyone cares to go back and look at the defense that Claiborne actually played in at LSU you would see that he played a great deal of zone coverage and he did extremely well when he was in it.

The idea that he cannot be used in zone is a myth and a misrepresentation. The reason we sucked in zone is because the CB's lacked the footwork and closing speed to shrink the size of the zones the WR's operated in. With his speed and ability the zones are going to be much smaller and lead to a lower completion percentage and higher rate of turnovers because the QB's margin for error is lower.

So what you're saying is they are finally going after a CB that can play our style of zone defense, but if we get him, they plan on going away from that zone defense & playing man to man?

tastywaves
03-21-2012, 10:09 AM
Frazier has already come out and said that they plan to play more man coverage packages if they can get the players to run it.

Incidentally, if anyone cares to go back and look at the defense that Claiborne actually played in at LSU you would see that he played a great deal of zone coverage and he did extremely well when he was in it.

The idea that he cannot be used in zone is a myth and a misrepresentation. The reason we sucked in zone is because the CB's lacked the footwork and closing speed to shrink the size of the zones the WR's operated in. With his speed and ability the zones are going to be much smaller and lead to a lower completion percentage and higher rate of turnovers because the QB's margin for error is lower.

The one area that does concern me about Claiborne is his ability to play physical with big recievers and in run defense. Both very important in our division and our primarily cover 2 defense. I have not heard that Frazier wants to run more man-to-man as you state, I actually heard the exact opposite and was part of the reason why Pagac is no longer DC, but rather one of his Tampa 2 disciples.

From KFFL:

Weaknesses

Relies too much on athleticism
Poor tackling technique
A bit undersized at 5-foot-11, 188 pounds
Struggles in zone coverage
Gambles too much
Tends to get lazy in his technique and cannot allow that to happen in the NFL, where competition is playing at a higher level - high backpedal, sloppy footwork at times
Doesn't usually get a good jam at the line - may have problems against physical NFL receivers


Read more: 2012 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU :: KFFL - Article (http://www.kffl.com/a.php/129604/#ixzz1plR5lQov)


That being said, I think he is the best cover corner in the draft, and providing our coaching staff doesn't try to play to his weaknesses, he should be a huge upgrade to our secondary.

But take Kalil :)

bleedpurple
03-21-2012, 11:00 AM
He was drafted after both Gabbert and locker. After seeing all 3 play I would say we got the best of the three at a later pick so if Ponder was a reach, what would you call Gabby and Locker?

they were all over drafted... we would have been better off taking Fairley somebody else... We had Joe Webb we could have relied on

mountainviking
03-21-2012, 11:37 AM
Gotta go LT over CB. We got nothing at LT. We still have Winny and Cook at CB. Also, big men who can move are way more rare than quick, little guys who can run. But, the biggest reason is our two young QBs!

We are rebuilding. We've got a 2nd and 3rd year QB who need all the help you can give them. I say, we let the defense slide til later rounds and/or next year and start building Chemistry AND Consistency on offense first. Our defense still holds its own while our offense has struggled 5 of the past 6 years.

1st round Kalil
2nd round Best deep-threat WR available...at this point, I'd even give up a 4th or maybe even our 3rd to move that 2nd back into the first if it'll land Mike Floyd or Stephen Hill.

(Tho, I'd have given that 3rd up in a heartbeat to bring DeMeco Ryans in at MLB! Stupid Texans shoulda shopped a bit more!!)

kevoncox
03-21-2012, 05:23 PM
Only this team would blow this pick. Sorry while Claiborne is a good corner, he will not be an elite CB. Even if he is....we don't need a starter at Cb this year. We need a starter at LT last week. My god. You can finds corners, you can't find elite tackles. Why, why, why did I find myself drawn to the Vikings. :(
This team is cursed and the curse is stupidity.

Purple Floyd
03-21-2012, 07:59 PM
So what you're saying is they are finally going after a CB that can play our style of zone defense, but if we get him, they plan on going away from that zone defense & playing man to man?

No, but I am not surprised that you couldn't read it in the proper context. I have no way to help you.

Purple Floyd
03-21-2012, 08:14 PM
The one area that does concern me about Claiborne is his ability to play physical with big recievers and in run defense. Both very important in our division and our primarily cover 2 defense. I have not heard that Frazier wants to run more man-to-man as you state, I actually heard the exact opposite and was part of the reason why Pagac is no longer DC, but rather one of his Tampa 2 disciples.

From KFFL:


That being said, I think he is the best cover corner in the draft, and providing our coaching staff doesn't try to play to his weaknesses, he should be a huge upgrade to our secondary.

But take Kalil :)

You can play the weakness game with any player.

Kalilís Weaknesses (in buzzwords):

Only an adequate run blocker
Commonly does not finish run blocks
Lacks elite lower body strength
Not an instinctive run blocker
Not considered to have elite lateral agility, which may make him susceptible to speed rushers and secondary pass rush moves at the NFL level. Has added weight since the end of his collegiate career, but may be a little light for a left tackle even at his current 306 pounds.

Purple Floyd
03-21-2012, 08:36 PM
.we don't need a starter at Cb this year.


:rofl:



You can finds corners, you can't find elite tackles.

So you are using corners in general but limiting the LT's to elite ones? Way to tweak a point to fit your thinly based argument.


3 things are wrong with your point.
1) Elite LT's don't transfer teams as often because they are not in as high of a demand so teams are able to sign them more often and still stay in the cap.

2) Elite CB's leave more often in FA because they have a higher premium than tackles and teams are more willing to break the bank to get them because they know they have a much greater impact on the success of the team than a LT does.

3) There are more so called franchise LT's drafted year over year than CB's because they have a more narrowly defined role that is easier to fill than an elite CB. That is why you can compare a guy like Kalil to recently drafted LT's like Long, Ferguson, Thomas etc that come out nearly every year but when the debate shifts to elite CB's they have to harken back nearly 30 years and pull up names like Woodson, Green,Sanders etc. The elite ones just don't come around that often and even the ones that are not necessarily HOF material

CPonderFan
03-21-2012, 08:41 PM
I personally could see this senario playing out...Miami needs a QB and could be hot for Tannenhill. The browns could possibly draft a QB at #4 (I think they will draft Richardson) but does Miami want to take that chance? They have been trying to land a Franchise QB for years. I think there could be a chance that MN deals #3 to Miami and Tannenhill is taken for the 3rd QB in 3 picks. Then MN ends up with the 8th pick. The Browns take Richardson, Tampa takes Mo Claiborne at #5, The Rams take Blackmon at #6, Jacksonville takes Coples at #7 and MN is left taking OT Rieff.....

With that move we would probably get a few other solid picks...some this year, some next year...maybe the year after that.


I like this move :)

kevoncox
03-21-2012, 11:05 PM
So you are using corners in general but limiting the LT's to elite ones? Way to tweak a point to fit your thinly based argument.

No!!!!!
Try and follow me. We have Cook and Winny. Allen is a good Nickel (outside in our system) Cb. I would love to bring in a new guy to in the 2nd or 3rd to start over Allen and fill in for Whinny when is annual injury happens. The only issues with this is
1) No one has said Claiborne has the ability to be an elite CB in this league. I have heard very good to great...not elite.
2. We are still a cover 2 team. Ignore the "we will play more man this season talk." At the end of the day we will be in a defense where the guys elite cover skills won't be used. It's like having a power back in an Andy Reid defense.



3 things are wrong with your point.
1) Elite LT's don't transfer teams as often because they are not in as high of a demand so teams are able to sign them more often and still stay in the cap.


Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!
Elite LTs don't change teams that often because teams know their worth and they are extended and locked up regardless of price. What is easier to find: Fast/quick small guys or Agile/Strong Big guys?
Cbs can be let go because there are a ton of guys out there with quick feet and fluid hips.



2) Elite CB's leave more often in FA because they have a higher premium than tackles and teams are more willing to break the bank to get them because they know they have a much greater impact on the success of the team than a LT does.


That makes no sense. If teams are more willing to break the bank. Why wouldn't they( the other team) keep them. The fact is Cbs are easier to replace. You can find a starting caliber CB in the 2nd round. Most teams prefer to have a LT drafted in the 1st round. Heck most tackles that are drafted after the 1st rounds are drafted to be RTs and stay there or get moved to the LT when it is discovered they have the talent to play LT.




3) There are more so called franchise LT's drafted year over year than CB's because they have a more narrowly defined role that is easier to fill than an elite CB. That is why you can compare a guy like Kalil to recently drafted LT's like Long, Ferguson, Thomas etc that come out nearly every year but when the debate shifts to elite CB's they have to harken back nearly 30 years and pull up names like Woodson, Green,Sanders etc. The elite ones just don't come around that often and even the ones that are not necessarily HOF material

I see where you are going here...but that makes my point. Clairboure isn't an elite player. If you have a chance to draft an Elite player vs. a Great one. You take the Elite player. Most Cbs drafted in the first round require a year to get acclimated to the league. Revis had an above average rookie year but most of those other guys don't really do much as a Rookie.

2011 - Peterson
2010 - Haden
2009 - Jenkins
2008 - McKelvin
2007 - Revis

Why draft a guy whose position is being nerfed by the league and the defense you run?
Lastly.... Would you rather have:
Khalil & Janoris Jenkins/Alfonzo Dennard
or
Morris Claiborne & Mike Adams/Zebrie Sanders
The choice is easy.

Purple Floyd
03-21-2012, 11:52 PM
The choice is easy but it doesn't mean your choice is the right one......

First off- You have zero idea of who will or will not be elite so your point is based on faulty data. I am not contending Claiborne will be the next Sanders but then again it is just as likely as thinking Kalil will be the next munoz.

Point blank the LT position is over-hyped and in our division it is far less important than the CB position

What I would take is Claiborne-Martin-Jeffrey. We can do that by trading back a few spots and aquiring a few extra picks, then bundling to move back up. That is a far stronger overall group than Kalil and any other 2 players we can get with our available picks.

And just how the hell is it going to be any different with Kalil in terms of production in the first year anyway? We will have 3 new starters on the OL, a shitty OL coach and a suspect blocking scheme. To think he is going to singlehandedly change any of that is a fantasy. He plays only in one single spot on the field and even if he is every bit the player you dream he is, the pressure we are facing is coming from a lot more locations than directly over the LT. Looking at GB and Detroit, they bring more pressure from our right side of the line and Kalil will do nothing for that pressure.

We need to get skill players and that means we need to look at
QB
WR
DE
CB.

Those are the 4 core positions on the team that need star players. If you have those filled then draft a LT in the 12-20 spot and move on with it.

singersp
03-22-2012, 05:31 AM
No, but I am not surprised that you couldn't read it in the proper context. I have no way to help you.

I read it in the proper context, I'll explain it so an average rube like yourself can get it.

For years we've taken players that could play well man-to-man & tried to force them to play zone defense, which they played worse at.

Now, they may draft a DB that actually plays well at zone defense, but Frazier is indicating he'd like to play more man-to-man.

singersp
03-22-2012, 06:12 AM
If Elite LT's are so low in demand & quality LT's even less in demand, how is it the best we could do at LT was signing Charlie Johnson?

Purple Floyd
03-22-2012, 07:20 AM
If Elite LT's are so low in demand & quality LT's even less in demand, how is it the best we could do at LT was signing Charlie Johnson?


Because we waited too long after we cut out elite LT to sign anyone else and the FO apparently didn't feel the position was so important as to have to go out and trade for one.

Remember the last can't miss LT we drafted to shore up the left side of the line? Just how well over his career did he actually lock that position up? I don't remember too many years where we were saying "Boy, glad we took that LT in the top 10 so we don't have to worry about our QB getting killed"Heck, that McKinney guy never gave up a sack in his career at Miami.:rofl:

Purple Floyd
03-22-2012, 07:30 AM
I read it in the proper context, I'll explain it so an average rube like yourself can get it.

For years we've taken players that could play well man-to-man & tried to force them to play zone defense, which they played worse at.

Now, they may draft a DB that actually plays well at zone defense, but Frazier is indicating he'd like to play more man-to-man.

That is where you are just not seeing the whole picture. Frazier is still going to run zone most of the time and Mo can do that just fine, but there will be times when he is going to want to run in man. Mo can do that better than any other CB in the draft.

It doesn't mean that Frazier is changing away from something that will be a players strong suit to his weak suit, it means they could finally get a player who can have the flexibility to perform at a high level no matter what they are running.

kevoncox
03-22-2012, 11:01 AM
Because we waited too long after we cut out elite LT to sign anyone else and the FO apparently didn't feel the position was so important as to have to go out and trade for one.

Remember the last can't miss LT we drafted to shore up the left side of the line? Just how well over his career did he actually lock that position up? I don't remember too many years where we were saying "Boy, glad we took that LT in the top 10 so we don't have to worry about our QB getting killed"Heck, that McKinney guy never gave up a sack in his career at Miami.:rofl:

Mac didn't lack talent. He lacked drive. He was too much party not enough business.
I believe you just proved my point. He wasn't elite but he stayed on our team as a starter for almost 8 years. While Marcus Maculey and other corners we took in the 2nd round are long gone.

You are ignoring my points. It is seasier to find a fast little guy than a Big agile guy. Hence teams do not give up on Lts. The top corners in the league have changed teams.
Asante Samuel a few years back, The kid from Oakland, Woodson etc. Top Lts don't.
Joe Thomas? Long? Etc

kevoncox
03-22-2012, 11:05 AM
That is where you are just not seeing the whole picture. Frazier is still going to run zone most of the time and Mo can do that just fine, but there will be times when he is going to want to run in man. Mo can do that better than any other CB in the draft.

It doesn't mean that Frazier is changing away from something that will be a players strong suit to his weak suit, it means they could finally get a player who can have the flexibility to perform at a high level no matter what they are running.

We won't need to worry out that. When our Offense stalls on the 17 yardline. The other team will just run it in.

bleedpurple
03-22-2012, 03:19 PM
Mac didn't lack talent. He lacked drive. He was too much party not enough business.
I believe you just proved my point. He wasn't elite but he stayed on our team as a starter for almost 8 years. While Marcus Maculey and other corners we took in the 2nd round are long gone.

You are ignoring my points. It is seasier to find a fast little guy than a Big agile guy. Hence teams do not give up on Corners. The top corners in the league have changed teams.
Asante Samuel a few years back, The kid from Oakland, Woodson etc. Top Lts don't.
Joe Thomas? Long? Etc

i agree.. plus we dont' need elite corners in the cover 2.. just decent ones... we gotta take the LT

marshallvike
03-22-2012, 05:12 PM
If Spielman is a big enough idiot to actually draft Claiborne instead of Kalil in the third spot I will not spend a penny on any vikings gear next year. I will tell everyone in my family not to buy me anything Viking. I may not even watch Viking football next year if my beloved franchise is going to be run by an imbecile.

Ranger
03-22-2012, 05:25 PM
Our team is so rough right now that no matter which of the top three guys we pick (Blackmon, Kalil, Claiborne), we'll be better off than we were before. I think they'll all be solid players. The money will be made in the later rounds, for the Vikes, which is where we usually fail.

PackSux!
03-22-2012, 05:29 PM
Claiborne had surgery! So it wouldnt suprise me to see the idiot spielman waste our pick on Claiborne.

Drafting Kalil is our best option and dont try to disagree because it is foolish and you know it.

marshallvike
03-22-2012, 06:33 PM
I understand the average rubes desire to draft a top LT. Heck, I have been after the team to upgrade the OL myself for as long as anyone. But in this draft at this spot Claiborne is the best player for us to take. And he is the best defensive player on the board.

We had a historically bad secondary last season and the defense was limited by the team not having the talent to play man coverage when the offense we faced dictated we needed to. Frazier has also stated that they want to run less zone and more man defense this year. There is no player we can take in the draft that will be a better man coverage CB than Claiborne and there is no CB in FA that fits into our budget that can do what he will be able to do.

Yes, having an elite LT would be nice, but if you look at our division we really don't have any young, elite RDE's that even call for a player like Kalil to go against. The best RDE in the division is on our team and while Peppers is a great RDE he is getting up there in age as is Vanden Bosch. The packers RDE is probably the weak link on their line and between the Lions and Packers we will see more pressure from center to the right side of our line than center left.

However, looking at the division we face 3 elite QB's and 3 very good to elite WR groups with the addition of Marshall in Chicago. There is no way we can improve our team than to bring in an elite CB that can lock down a guy like Marshall or Johnson or Cobb/Nelson and make them irrelevant.

Giving the offense more turnovers and better field position will also help Ponder and the offense more than having an elite LT will. And Claiborne can also return punts which can give the offense better field position and limit the pressure defenses can apply which will help Ponder also.

So in the end i am strongly in favor of drafting Claiborne if we stay at 3. ( I would prefer us to trade back and get extra picks personally) I want a better LT but I am not convinced we cannot get a LT that can do the job unless we draft one in the top 3. I think Martin can be the answer and he may slip to the late 1st or early second.

How does this sound to you?


Charlie Johnson Joe Berger John Sullivan Anthony Herera Phil Loadholt

Bet it sounds even worse to Ponder.

If Ryan Cook was still on the team, he would be our best lineman. Pretty sad state of affairs.

CPonderFan
03-22-2012, 06:35 PM
ignorance is bliss!

I say trade out of the 3rd pick and we can still get our OT that we need and a couple of other players to go along with him. I think Miami is the team that is desperate enough to move up to #3 and get the QB they need before cleveland picks at 4. I love the idea of drafting OT Rieff and getting a draft pick or two to boot. Everything i have read is that there isnt much seperation between Kalil and Reiff anyways

marshallvike
03-22-2012, 06:51 PM
ignorance is bliss!

I say trade out of the 3rd pick and we can still get our OT that we need and a couple of other players to go along with him. I think Miami is the team that is desperate enough to move up to #3 and get the QB they need before cleveland picks at 4. I love the idea of drafting OT Rieff and getting a draft pick or two to boot. Everything i have read is that there isnt much seperation between Kalil and Reiff anyways

There is separation between Kalil and Reiff. That said I could deal with your scenario, except there are not any teams knocking down our door for the third pick. Miami can probably trade up with someone further down the board than us and still get Tannehill.

skum
03-23-2012, 01:14 AM
I wouldnt pick Ryan Tannehill in the first round, let alone 3rd overall.. That is just crazy talk in my oppinion..

Kalil is the best OT in the draft and the drop-off from him to Reiff, Martin, Adams is huge.. Kalils footwork is amazing, his basic skills is great, he has a frame to add some weight, he is strong, atheltic, the whole package i have no doubt in my mind that he will be a big success in the NFL and i think we must pick him..

The only scenario i see is if we sign a free agent proven LT(don't know who i could/should be) and then draft Claiborne/Blackmon..

singersp
03-23-2012, 06:19 AM
How does this sound to you?


Charlie Johnson Joe Berger John Sullivan Anthony Herera Phil Loadholt

Bet it sounds even worse to Ponder.

If Ryan Cook was still on the team, he would be our best lineman. Pretty sad state of affairs.

Hererra was cut before FA. He is not a Viking, Ergo you were looking at;

Charlie Johnson Joe Berger John Sullivan Chris DeGeare Phil Loadholt.

Vikings signed Geoff Schwartz after your post & he will compete for a guard spot.

singersp
03-23-2012, 06:51 AM
Elite LT's don't transfer teams as often because they are not in as high of a demand so teams are able to sign them more often and still stay in the cap.

I don't know if I can agree with that. Elite LT's do get drafted high & are in demand.

Case in point: Jake Long was drafted #1 overall in the 2008 draft. 2 picks before Matt Ryan.

In the last 5 years 8 tackles were drafted in the top 10 picks. 6 of them play LT. In that same 5 years only 4 DB's were signed in the top 10 & each team fields 3 DB's.

Top 10 picks regardless of position, got top 10 money. They didn't come cheap because they were OL men.

vikesrgreat2
03-23-2012, 08:55 AM
I heard that Claiborne is getting wrist surgery. Given this situation, I feel more strongly than ever that we should draft Kalil at #3, if at all possible. For our second-round pick, I feel we should draft the best available WR or CB. If we draft WR at #35, we should then draft the best available CB at #67 and vice versa. As weak as we are at LT, WR, and CB, all 3 of these draft picks will likely start on Day 1 of the regular season, and will help our team get better.

Between free agency and the draft, we know we won't be able to fix every problem the team has. However, if we address the most serious problems now, the team will at least be pointed in the right direction for the future.

marshallvike
03-23-2012, 10:20 AM
Hererra was cut before FA. He is not a Viking, Ergo you were looking at;

Charlie Johnson Joe Berger John Sullivan Chris DeGeare Phil Loadholt.

Vikings signed Geoff Schwartz after your post & he will compete for a guard spot.


I thought Herera was cut also but Vikings.com, the official Vikings website has him listed as the first string RG and I believe 2nd string LG on their depth chart.
Hutch is absent from the chart. A quick search also still has him listed as a Viking.
Maybe they did not cut him yet.
In any case, does it sound any better sans Herera?

singersp
03-24-2012, 06:00 AM
I thought Herera was cut also but Vikings.com, the official Vikings website has him listed as the first string RG and I believe 2nd string LG on their depth chart.
Hutch is absent from the chart. A quick search also still has him listed as a Viking.
Maybe they did not cut him yet.
In any case, does it sound any better sans Herera?

I saw they had him listed, but he was cut.

No, it doesn't sound better without Hererra. That's my point. We're much worse off then we were last year.

I still think signing a good OL coach is what this team has to do as well. The current OL coach just hasn't been improving the OL play.

Ranger
03-24-2012, 07:46 AM
Do you guys feel that Claiborne is a better ball player than Blackmon?

thorshammer
03-24-2012, 08:30 AM
BPA is the best way to build through the draft .............

jmcdon00
03-24-2012, 10:28 AM
BPA is the best way to build through the draft .............
+1
Still hoping BPA available is on the offensive side of the ball. As a fan I really want to see Ponder succeed.

Purple Floyd
03-24-2012, 02:07 PM
I want the secondary to stop being a laughing stock in a QB driven division.

PackSux!
03-25-2012, 10:25 AM
Cook and Winfield will be the Corners and that is already an upgrade to what we went threw last season. Cook played good before his mishap.

I could see us drafting Claiborne to replace Winfield at corner, but I hope they try to replace him later in the draft..

1st round. Kalil
2nd round. WR/CB
3rd round. CB/WR

I got my eyes on Stephen Hill for the reciever, he is 6'4" 215 pounds. Dre kirkpatrick is the corner I am watching, I like the idea of a taller corner.

mountainviking
03-25-2012, 12:11 PM
Cook and Winfield will be the Corners and that is already an upgrade to what we went threw last season. Cook played good before his mishap.

I could see us drafting Claiborne to replace Winfield at corner, but I hope they try to replace him later in the draft..

1st round. Kalil
2nd round. WR/CB
3rd round. CB/WR

I got my eyes on Stephen Hill for the reciever, he is 6'4" 215 pounds. Dre kirkpatrick is the corner I am watching, I like the idea of a taller corner.

Hill is who I've been hoping for too...only, with his insane combine, he's most likely the 3rd WR off the board. We'd have to move our 2nd up to have a shot...our 3rd gets us to CIN's no.21, our 4th would get us up to NE's first pick at no.27. Tough move with all our needs, but he's quite possibly worth it. Great size AND Blazing Speed AND showed great hands at the drills, AND, played in a run-first offense in college and isn't afraid to put his shoulder pads through a DB on a blocking assignment!!

Dre is most likely gone in the first too...similar situation.

I feel like this draft really needs to be all about offense. We've got 2 young QBs with potential that we're trying to "develop." That means building confidence, consistency, and chemistry, and we most likely can't do any of that without putting a few more playmakers around them!

We're the worst team in quite possibly the best division in the NFL...we're most likely going to be picking early again next year. I say make that first pick next year the War Pig or Cover Corner we've been waiting for, and fill in the D around him and our already impressive DL of Robison, Williams, and Allen then.

SKOL VIKINGS!!!!!!!

kevoncox
03-25-2012, 06:42 PM
Hill did nothing in College except catch the deep ball. I don't believe he is that well rounded a WR. Yes GSU runs the wishbone/flex/wing offense but 28 receptions the entire years is not someone who I want to trade up for. I would rather sit on Jeffery.

PackSux!
03-25-2012, 09:53 PM
Hill did nothing in College except catch the deep ball. I don't believe he is that well rounded a WR. Yes GSU runs the wishbone/flex/wing offense but 28 receptions the entire years is not someone who I want to trade up for. I would rather sit on Jeffery.

Trade up for Hill? How do you figure? To many free agency signings were made in the wr position to make me think the wr is a position of need in the first or second round. Because of his numbers I could see Hill falling to the third round.

The guy we would have to trade up to get is Kirkpatrick more than likely.

jmcdon00
03-26-2012, 01:34 PM
I want the secondary to stop being a laughing stock in a QB driven division.
Aaron Rodgers averaged
310yds, 3TD, .33INT per game
Stafford averaged
315yds, 2.56TD, 1INT per game
Nobody can stop these guys, the only hope is to out score them.

kevoncox
03-26-2012, 02:42 PM
Aaron Rodgers averaged
310yds, 3TD, .33INT per game
Stafford averaged
315yds, 2.56TD, 1INT per game
Nobody can stop these guys, the only hope is to out score them.

He doesn't realize that teams don't care about dbs anymore. Its all about the pass rush. Look at the Giants. Made it to the Superbowl with Aaron Ross starting. Ravens? Nothing special at CB either. Pats? Saints? All these teams rush the QB and disrupt things. We only have 1 pass rusher and nothing from the middle. Marrado is right. Get me a Warpig!

kevoncox
03-26-2012, 02:43 PM
Trade up for Hill? How do you figure? To many free agency signings were made in the wr position to make me think the wr is a position of need in the first or second round. Because of his numbers I could see Hill falling to the third round.

The guy we would have to trade up to get is Kirkpatrick more than likely.
Hill in the 1st 25. I believe 19 - 22nd.

CPonderFan
03-26-2012, 06:45 PM
again keep in mind that all the LTs taken in the top 5 picks of their draft over the last 5 or 6 years are on teams that have done what? Exactly.... Having a Top LT is a luxury....but not a necessity. I prefer to put my money on more weapons, and better QB reads. I think that Ponder is very good at reads and two seasons from now he will be hitting his stride at QB. I would rather see us make a commitment to adding weapons especially with our top TBs both being injured last season. I say draft (2) WRs in the first two rounds. If we can drop down and still get our guy then lets do it. Add a Blackmon and Hill, Floyd or Jeffries. Then use our 3rd and after to fill in holes at LB, CB and DE.

With that many weapons it opens up the ground and pound. It keeps defenses in 3 man fronts and thinking pass protection....then we run boys. When they load the box...we have someone that can actually go up and get the ball!

kevoncox
03-26-2012, 06:52 PM
again keep in mind that all the LTs taken in the top 5 picks of their draft over the last 5 or 6 years are on teams that have done what? Exactly.... Having a Top LT is a luxury....but not a necessity. I prefer to put my money on more weapons, and better QB reads. I think that Ponder is very good at reads and two seasons from now he will be hitting his stride at QB. I would rather see us make a commitment to adding weapons especially with our top TBs both being injured last season. I say draft (2) WRs in the first two rounds. If we can drop down and still get our guy then lets do it. Add a Blackmon and Hill, Floyd or Jeffries. Then use our 3rd and after to fill in holes at LB, CB and DE.

With that many weapons it opens up the ground and pound. It keeps defenses in 3 man fronts and thinking pass protection....then we run boys. When they load the box...we have someone that can actually go up and get the ball!

Teams that have taken Cbs in the top 5 of drafts are where?
No where! because few teams are stupid enough to draft a CB in the top 5 in the league. Except the Cardinals but they also drafted Levi Brown over Peterson. Boldin, Peterson, Fitzgerald, Warner = Multiple championships.

So in closing....Drafting a OT when the one you have sucks is better than drafting a Cb when you already have one quality one, and one older aging one.

Again, its easier to find fast little guys than big agile guys. Hell Troy Brown played Cb. Ever seen a DT convert to LT?

Purple Floyd
03-26-2012, 08:08 PM
Aaron Rodgers averaged



310yds, 3TD, .33INT per game
Stafford averaged
315yds, 2.56TD, 1INT per game
Nobody can stop these guys, the only hope is to out score them.

Ha! we have a questionable starting QB and an offense built around a 100 Million dollar RB with a blown out knee and a multiple TE ball control offense being stocked with sub par FB's.

Good luck with that one....

If you are going to have a ball control, pound it out offense with no deep threat and a weak armed QB you best forget about running up the scoreboard and do something to counter the opposing offense or you are going to have a very short front office career.

Purple Floyd
03-26-2012, 08:14 PM
He doesn't realize that teams don't care about dbs anymore. Its all about the pass rush. Look at the Giants. Made it to the Superbowl with Aaron Ross starting. Ravens? Nothing special at CB either. Pats? Saints? All these teams rush the QB and disrupt things. We only have 1 pass rusher and nothing from the middle. Marrado is right. Get me a Warpig!

LMAO. Teams don't care about RB's any more either but we are in the process of building our offense around a RB with one good leg. We do not have Peyton Manning or the quality of WR's that the Giants have nor do we have the ability to score like they did.

If we had a high power passing attack and a premiere QB I would be fine with trying to go Mano E Mano with the rest of the division but here is a news flash for you- We have Ponder and Adrian Peterson. If you think for one little minute that we can take that offense and a shitty secondary against the rest of the division and have a chance I will gladly revisit the conversation with you down the road just like I did with the KAO, Chilly, TJ crowd.

BTW- If teams don't care about CB's any more then explain to me why the packers have made sure to have a great group of CB's over the last decade plus.

kevoncox
03-26-2012, 08:51 PM
LMAO. Teams don't care about RB's any more either but we are in the process of building our offense around a RB with one good leg. We do not have Peyton Manning or the quality of WR's that the Giants have nor do we have the ability to score like they did.

If we had a high power passing attack and a premiere QB I would be fine with trying to go Mano E Mano with the rest of the division but here is a news flash for you- We have Ponder and Adrian Peterson. If you think for one little minute that we can take that offense and a shitty secondary against the rest of the division and have a chance I will gladly revisit the conversation with you down the road just like I did with the KAO, Chilly, TJ crowd.

BTW- If teams don't care about CB's any more then explain to me why the packers have made sure to have a great group of CB's over the last decade plus.

Good thing we are building for this year only. This isn't even arguable. Teams address their OL, early and often. Period. If you can't see that your are delusional. What corner did the packers draft recently with a high pick. I can name an OL they drafted.

The fact remains, its an offensive league.... Teams that win build an OL. We have a running back on 1 knee and you think adding a CB is the answer? We have no MLB ( important in our scheme) and you think having a Nickle back is the most important.

This argument is honestly the silliest I have engaged in in all my years on PPO. You stand alone in your views because they are not sound. We run a scheme that minimize coverage skills of Cbs and you think a cover corner is the answer? We need a LT that can block. The reason the Browns / Dolphins and the other teams that drafted elite LTs haven't succeded is because they have refused to upgrade the passing game. No WRs, no RBs, No talent. Its not due to their lack of Cbs. Hell the Browns drafted Joe Haden and they still suck. There goes your theory!

kevoncox
03-26-2012, 09:04 PM
Ha! we have a questionable starting QB and an offense built around a 100 Million dollar RB with a blown out knee and a multiple TE ball control offense being stocked with sub par FB's.

Good luck with that one....

If you are going to have a ball control, pound it out offense with no deep threat and a weak armed QB you best forget about running up the scoreboard and do something to counter the opposing offense or you are going to have a very short front office career.

How about building an OL that you can dominate the game with.
How about adding a DB in the 2nd round ( like we did with Cook) that fits our scheme and has the size to affect catches? We need offense building defense won't fix our offense. Most teams atleast get explosive on offense and then fix the defense.

1. Saints
2. Packers.
3. Colts
4. Cardinals

Teams that address the defense first struggle to ever address the offense because the shelf on defensive players is shorter.

vikesrgreat2
03-27-2012, 09:50 AM
Do you guys feel that Claiborne is a better ball player than Blackmon?

Yes.

tastywaves
03-27-2012, 10:59 AM
Quote Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
Do you guys feel that Claiborne is a better ball player than Blackmon?


Yes.

Claiborne has all the right specs, Blackmon was more productive. How will that translate, don't know.

I think Blackmon will be a good receiver and whoever chooses him will get production earlier rather than later. Will he be elite, I have a harder time with that question.

Claiborne could very well become an elite corner, so I would say his upside is higher. But I have to agree with a lot of Kevon's comments on the importance of an elite coverage CB if we stay in a primarily cover 2 defense.

mountainviking
03-27-2012, 11:04 AM
Here's a look at how the draft might turn out if we don't go Kalil (LT) first round:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au_NykMAUAyWdFBmUFpINklCcXJXOVBWRGNRX0MzcUE#gid=0

1. Claiborne-IF we draft this guy, we have to play more man coverage! There is no reason to spend a pick this early on a cover corner and then not have him cover!!!! The other thing is, as we've seen mentioned several times just getting Cook and Winny back to playing improves our CB depth dramatically...I saw a quote on startrib that said they missed 21 games combined! So, with out continual struggles on pass defense, I'm not against this pick, just far from sure its going to help this team in this system the most.

2. Kelechi Osemele-Big nasty with experience at OG and OT. Not a bad way to upgrade our OL by starting at the top, LT/LG.

3. Markelle Martin-Love this pick! This kid was the one guy who really stood out to me in the Senior Bowl...always around the ball. Personally, I think upgrading S is more important at this point than CB. Asher is a decent nickle who we've been forced to start too much, too soon. Bowman added depth there, and Cook looked to be coming into his own, holding Fitz, Calvin, and Bowe under 50 yards each in consecutive weeks!

4. Chris Givens, WR Wake Forrest-"Givens posted a time of 4.35 seconds in the 40-yard dash and churned out 19 repetitions in the 225-pound bench press as part of the combine, where he was a top-10 performer based on the numbers." Pretty impressive numbers for the 4th round, but his size is very underwhelming at 5'11, 198 lbs. And, he played against lesser competition. Not a bad option in the 4th, but my feeling is that spending that 1 or 2 on one of the higher ranked, better size/speed/production guys will help our young QBs' progression a hell of a lot more.

5. Travis Lewis, OLB OU-I like this pick a lot! Gives us some insurance vs. signing Erin again next year and likely a good Special Teamer too.


Not a bad draft by any means, I just feel that grabbing Blackmon, or moving back a lil for Floyd or Hill helps our young QBs develop faster and that CB isn't our biggest need. The thing about Kalil (or if we really think Osemele will fall to our 2nd AND can play LT...?) is that it moves Charlie Johnson back inside, or to a multi-backup role, thus improving two spots with one pick, and improves not just our passing game, but our running game too!

SKOL VIKES!!!! Can't wait for the draft!!!

jmcdon00
03-27-2012, 01:39 PM
Ha! we have a questionable starting QB and an offense built around a 100 Million dollar RB with a blown out knee and a multiple TE ball control offense being stocked with sub par FB's.

Good luck with that one....

If you are going to have a ball control, pound it out offense with no deep threat and a weak armed QB you best forget about running up the scoreboard and do something to counter the opposing offense or you are going to have a very short front office career.
I agree the offense is a long long ways from being able to score with the Packers and Lions. Even if Ponder is our future QB, and Peterson comes back and is effective, we would still need minimum 2 offensive lineman and 2 new wide receivers. Kalil is not going to make us competitive by himself, and neither is any other player available.

I am not in favor of a ball control, pound it out offense. I've said Ponder needs a minimum of 4,000 yards passing if we are going to compete.

Ultimately I just don't think there is a defense in the league that can hold the Packers or Lions under 20pts a game on a regular basis. They are too explosive and the rules favor offenses too much.

The Packers and Patriots had the #31 and #32 defense in the regular season last year. They both were #1 seeds in their conferences. If that doesn't convince you offense dominates the NFL I don't know what will.

tastywaves
03-27-2012, 04:12 PM
I agree the offense is a long long ways from being able to score with the Packers and Lions. Even if Ponder is our future QB, and Peterson comes back and is effective, we would still need minimum 2 offensive lineman and 2 new wide receivers. Kalil is not going to make us competitive by himself, and neither is any other player available.

I am not in favor of a ball control, pound it out offense. I've said Ponder needs a minimum of 4,000 yards passing if we are going to compete.

Ultimately I just don't think there is a defense in the league that can hold the Packers or Lions under 20pts a game on a regular basis. They are too explosive and the rules favor offenses too much.

The Packers and Patriots had the #31 and #32 defense in the regular season last year. They both were #1 seeds in their conferences. If that doesn't convince you offense dominates the NFL I don't know what will.

How about Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Houston and San Fran? Top 4 defense rankings in the regular season based on yards given up.

During the post season the Giants were #3 out of 12 playoff teams, the Patriots were #5. Even though they had terrible regular season rankings, there improved defensive play helped get them to the SB.

Defense is still important. Yea, you need a passing game to compete as well, which outside of 2009, has been horrendous in MN for a long time.

jmcdon00
03-27-2012, 05:00 PM
How about Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Houston and San Fran? Top 4 defense rankings in the regular season based on yards given up.

During the post season the Giants were #3 out of 12 playoff teams, the Patriots were #5. Even though they had terrible regular season rankings, there improved defensive play helped get them to the SB.

Defense is still important. Yea, you need a passing game to compete as well, which outside of 2009, has been horrendous in MN for a long time.
Yes defense is important, but not as important as offense.

Of the 8 divisions, 6 winners were also the leading scoring teams. The other two, the AFC west had 3 teams tied at 8-8, and the nfc east, giants scored 2 fewer points than the eagles and had a 1 game edge.

Of the 8 division, 3 winners were also the leading defense(by points), all three also lead in points scored.

When you look at our division standings, it becomes even more apparent that we need to score points, and lots of them to compete.

BrisbaneTerrier
03-27-2012, 05:54 PM
The most likely dream scenario for the Vikings is surely to hope that the Browns fear the Dolphins trading up for Tannehill. Although they previously said that they were happy with Mccoy, they are bringing Ryan in for a workout. Miami have to go for a QB in the first and could try it on with us.

The Browns have a lot of picks to play with and we'd only drop the one place so still be able to grab Kalil (my personal fave) and then look to trade up if necessary to grab a potentially great CB later on in the first round if it pans out like that.

Otherwise, stick at #3, bring in Kalil and hit up a CB in the 2nd with pick 35, then go BPA for the rest of the draft. We have more holes than a block of swiss cheese.

CPonderFan
03-27-2012, 09:35 PM
The most likely dream scenario for the Vikings is surely to hope that the Browns fear the Dolphins trading up for Tannehill. Although they previously said that they were happy with Mccoy, they are bringing Ryan in for a workout. Miami have to go for a QB in the first and could try it on with us.

The Browns have a lot of picks to play with and we'd only drop the one place so still be able to grab Kalil (my personal fave) and then look to trade up if necessary to grab a potentially great CB later on in the first round if it pans out like that.

Otherwise, stick at #3, bring in Kalil and hit up a CB in the 2nd with pick 35, then go BPA for the rest of the draft. We have more holes than a block of swiss cheese.

Yeah and then listen to everyone complain because we still have no weapons on offense! lol

Take Blackmon at 3, add CBs in the 2nd and 3rd then another WR at the top of the 4th. The rest of the draft you can add depth to our LBs, DL and of course OL :)

Purple Floyd
03-27-2012, 10:00 PM
I agree the offense is a long long ways from being able to score with the Packers and Lions. Even if Ponder is our future QB, and Peterson comes back and is effective, we would still need minimum 2 offensive lineman and 2 new wide receivers. Kalil is not going to make us competitive by himself, and neither is any other player available.
We have actually drafted OL in the past few years and signed a few more that are going to have to step up and become starters. I am a bit doubtful that the coaching staff for the OL has what it takes to get them playing at a high level. But, as I have said, I am way more sold on the idea of trading back and working the draft with our picks to get DeCastro, who is a once in a generation L guard and then Martin at LT to get a duo that can give more bang for the buck than Kalil by himself.


I am not in favor of a ball control, pound it out offense. I've said Ponder needs a minimum of 4,000 yards passing if we are going to compete.



You might not be in favor of it but that is what we have and that is what we are building. That is reality. We drafted a RB, WR,Qb, TE and have picked up FA players this year that all point towards that fact.

No way Ponder goes for 4000 in this offense and even if they want him to and even if we do get Kalil who the hell is going to catch that many yards worth of passes? sure as hell won't be aromashoe.



Ultimately I just don't think there is a defense in the league that can hold the Packers or Lions under 20pts a game on a regular basis. They are too explosive and the rules favor offenses too much.



I would say the Ravens, Steelers, niners, Broncos and Texans all could be in that category.



The Packers and Patriots had the #31 and #32 defense in the regular season last year. They both were #1 seeds in their conferences. If that doesn't convince you offense dominates the NFL I don't know what will.


I m not arguing that offense is what makes the league go around but you need to tell me what in anything the team has done points towards them building an offensive juggernaut. They don't have the QB for it, they don't have the scheme for it, they don't have the WR's for it and if they take a top 5 LT that sure as hell isn't going to do it either. They are building a run first offense and that is not something that is going to be easy to refute.

Purple Floyd
03-27-2012, 11:05 PM
Good thing we are building for this year only. This isn't even arguable. Teams address their OL, early and often. Period. If you can't see that your are delusional. What corner did the packers draft recently with a high pick. I can name an OL they drafted.



Correct me if I am mistaken but have we not addressed the OL early and often by drafting Sully, Loadholt and also by guys like degeare, Love, Fusco,Schwartz and johnson, who was a starting LT in Indy? At some point these guys need to step in and be starters and it is up the the staff to get them to that point. Then with a bit more experience and a few changes at WR the QB can get the ball out quicker and the pressure will subside. It would also be nice if we had a RB that was a threat to actually block and catch a screen pass on a consistent basis. that would take a lot of pressure off the OL.


The fact remains, its an offensive league.... Teams that win build an OL. We have a running back on 1 knee and you think adding a CB is the answer? We have no MLB ( important in our scheme) and you think having a Nickle back is the most important.

Somewhere you must have missed out on the fact that over the last 6 years or so nobody has been a bigger proponent of upgrading the OL than I have been. But I am not such a rube that i think only a top 5 LT can fix the problems or that drafting one there is an end all that will magically make the QB more effective.

And i don't think adding the CB is the answer. I have clearly and often stated that I would prefer to trade out of the spot and use a later 1st on a guy like DeCastro who I think will be a better player than Kalil when it is said and done and use the extra picks to move back up in the first and get Martin if they feel the guys on our roster are not going to cut it.
you think Claiborne is only going to be good enough to be a nickel corner and you call me delusional? Good one.




This argument is honestly the silliest I have engaged in in all my years on PPO. You stand alone in your views because they are not sound.

I do not stand alone, I am just ahead of the curve. You just latched on to the first draft projection and can't think past your initial take. My views have been as sound as anyones on here for a long time so I will stand on that record. I am not going anywhere so stay tuned.



We run a scheme that minimize coverage skills of Cbs and you think a cover corner is the answer?

The coach( I know you may not have heard it but it is out there) wants to play more man coverage if he can find a gu who can do it. Guess what, that is Claiborne. period.

Secondly- If you would look at some film of claiborne at LSU it might smack you in the forehead that he actually played a great deal of zone coverage and excelled at it. because of his speed he can really shrink the size of the zones and he has the speed to close on WR's that enter his zone making it much more difficult for a QB to make a good throw.

Thirdly- The team that is most often slated to take him if we pass is Tampa. Do you need to buy a vowel to figure out what defense they run? T_mp_ 2.



We need a LT that can block.
We need a LT that can run block in our run first offense and Reiff, as Marr stated, is a better run blocker than Kalil. And if you would actually evaluate the offense and the moves we made you would notice that we took TE's and FB's in FA which indicates they are bringing in talent and running a scheme that minimizes the importance of the LT. That is just simple football 101 that you may have overlooked. In the end they may very well draft Kalil and if they do I will be fine with it even if i think they could have done better by trading back.




The reason the Browns / Dolphins and the other teams that drafted elite LTs haven't succeded is because they have refused to upgrade the passing game. No WRs, no RBs,


You mean the same Dolphins and browns that have had guys like Marshall, Hillis,Williams, Ginn,brown,Cribbs, stallworth, Winslow? They had the talent. maybe not the coaching and certainly not the secondary to stop anyone. A QB would have helped too.



No talent. Its not due to their lack of Cbs. Hell the Browns drafted Joe Haden and they still suck. There goes your theory!


Doh k

tastywaves
03-28-2012, 10:12 AM
Yeah and then listen to everyone complain because we still have no weapons on offense! lol

Take Blackmon at 3, add CBs in the 2nd and 3rd then another WR at the top of the 4th. The rest of the draft you can add depth to our LBs, DL and of course OL :)

Or, take Kalil at #3, help solidify the line, take WR or CB with the second pick as there appears to be a number of decent choices. Fill in with the plethora of other picks taking BPA and then look to fill in more of the pieces next year via draft or FA.

Just as all the arguments are being spewed about the anonymity of LT's in the SB, one can also point to the lack of elite WR's that make it to the SB. It takes more than one stud player to make a team SB worthy. Outside of the QB and possibly RB, every other position requires the entire team doing their job before you see their production.

Blackmon is no Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss and IMO is a reach at #3. Kalil appears to be the most "elite" prospect, with Claiborne a close second. And as bad as our secondary is, I don't trust that we will take advantage of Claiborne's strengths and will be better served taking another Cook type player with our second pick.

bleedpurple
03-28-2012, 12:23 PM
Good thing we are building for this year only. This isn't even arguable. Teams address their OL, early and often. Period. If you can't see that your are delusional. What corner did the packers draft recently with a high pick. I can name an OL they drafted.

The fact remains, its an offensive league.... Teams that win build an OL. We have a running back on 1 knee and you think adding a CB is the answer? We have no MLB ( important in our scheme) and you think having a Nickle back is the most important.

This argument is honestly the silliest I have engaged in in all my years on PPO. You stand alone in your views because they are not sound. We run a scheme that minimize coverage skills of Cbs and you think a cover corner is the answer? We need a LT that can block. The reason the Browns / Dolphins and the other teams that drafted elite LTs haven't succeded is because they have refused to upgrade the passing game. No WRs, no RBs, No talent. Its not due to their lack of Cbs. Hell the Browns drafted Joe Haden and they still suck. There goes your theory!


Correct me if I am mistaken but have we not addressed the OL early and often by drafting Sully, Loadholt and also by guys like degeare, Love, Fusco,Schwartz and johnson, who was a starting LT in Indy? At some point these guys need to step in and be starters and it is up the the staff to get them to that point. Then with a bit more experience and a few changes at WR the QB can get the ball out quicker and the pressure will subside. It would also be nice if we had a RB that was a threat to actually block and catch a screen pass on a consistent basis. that would take a lot of pressure off the OL.



Somewhere you must have missed out on the fact that over the last 6 years or so nobody has been a bigger proponent of upgrading the OL than I have been. But I am not such a rube that i think only a top 5 LT can fix the problems or that drafting one there is an end all that will magically make the QB more effective.

And i don't think adding the CB is the answer. I have clearly and often stated that I would prefer to trade out of the spot and use a later 1st on a guy like DeCastro who I think will be a better player than Kalil when it is said and done and use the extra picks to move back up in the first and get Martin if they feel the guys on our roster are not going to cut it.
you think Claiborne is only going to be good enough to be a nickel corner and you call me delusional? Good one.





I do not stand alone, I am just ahead of the curve. You just latched on to the first draft projection and can't think past your initial take. My views have been as sound as anyones on here for a long time so I will stand on that record. I am not going anywhere so stay tuned.




The coach( I know you may not have heard it but it is out there) wants to play more man coverage if he can find a gu who can do it. Guess what, that is Claiborne. period.

Secondly- If you would look at some film of claiborne at LSU it might smack you in the forehead that he actually played a great deal of zone coverage and excelled at it. because of his speed he can really shrink the size of the zones and he has the speed to close on WR's that enter his zone making it much more difficult for a QB to make a good throw.

Thirdly- The team that is most often slated to take him if we pass is Tampa. Do you need to buy a vowel to figure out what defense they run? T_mp_ 2.



We need a LT that can run block in our run first offense and Reiff, as Marr stated, is a better run blocker than Kalil. And if you would actually evaluate the offense and the moves we made you would notice that we took TE's and FB's in FA which indicates they are bringing in talent and running a scheme that minimizes the importance of the LT. That is just simple football 101 that you may have overlooked. In the end they may very well draft Kalil and if they do I will be fine with it even if i think they could have done better by trading back.






You mean the same Dolphins and browns that have had guys like Marshall, Hillis,Williams, Ginn,brown,Cribbs, stallworth, Winslow? They had the talent. maybe not the coaching and certainly not the secondary to stop anyone. A QB would have helped too.




Doh k

It doesn't make sense to pass on a franchise LT... all those guys you mentioned are either late draft picks or bumbs... if we are going to have any chance on offense.. it will involve Ponder not running for his life...

as far as a CB... we don't need an elite CB in a cover-2 scheme... all they have to do is play their zones, maybe do a little press coverage, release to the safety and sit in their zone... LT's are more valuable than CB's anyway.... that's why you see tons of them on the open market but not elite franchise LT's...

PackSux!
03-28-2012, 12:42 PM
LMAO. Teams don't care about RB's any more either but we are in the process of building our offense around a RB with one good leg. We do not have Peyton Manning or the quality of WR's that the Giants have nor do we have the ability to score like they did.

If we had a high power passing attack and a premiere QB I would be fine with trying to go Mano E Mano with the rest of the division but here is a news flash for you- We have Ponder and Adrian Peterson. If you think for one little minute that we can take that offense and a shitty secondary against the rest of the division and have a chance I will gladly revisit the conversation with you down the road just like I did with the KAO, Chilly, TJ crowd.

BTW- If teams don't care about CB's any more then explain to me why the packers have made sure to have a great group of CB's over the last decade plus.

As far as the packers go and their corners. Randy Moss forced the packers to draft CB year after year to try and stop him. Didn't work so well for the packers now did it? The Packers pass defense was horseshit this last season so I dont really understand the point you are trying to make?

The Packers were 32nd in the league in pass defense last season giving up an average of 299.8 yards per game. So again how can you say there cb's are a great group? Great at giving up yards is about it. Hell the Vikings ranked 26th and gave up 251.2 pass yards per game. So if the packers have a great group of cb's like you say, then the Vikings must have elite corners already. So what is the point in drafting a cb with our first pick?

You can try all you wat to convince people on why we should draft a cb but in the end it would be foolish and you know it. You are just having a problem admitting it.

bleedpurple
03-28-2012, 12:48 PM
Good thing we are building for this year only. This isn't even arguable. Teams address their OL, early and often. Period. If you can't see that your are delusional. What corner did the packers draft recently with a high pick. I can name an OL they drafted.

The fact remains, its an offensive league.... Teams that win build an OL. We have a running back on 1 knee and you think adding a CB is the answer? We have no MLB ( important in our scheme) and you think having a Nickle back is the most important.

This argument is honestly the silliest I have engaged in in all my years on PPO. You stand alone in your views because they are not sound. We run a scheme that minimize coverage skills of Cbs and you think a cover corner is the answer? We need a LT that can block. The reason the Browns / Dolphins and the other teams that drafted elite LTs haven't succeded is because they have refused to upgrade the passing game. No WRs, no RBs, No talent. Its not due to their lack of Cbs. Hell the Browns drafted Joe Haden and they still suck. There goes your theory!


As far as the packers go and their corners. Randy Moss forced the packers to draft CB year after year to try and stop him. Didn't work so well for the packers now did it? The Packers pass defense was horseshit this last season so I dont really understand the point you are trying to make?

The Packers were 32nd in the league in pass defense last season giving up an average of 299.8 yards per game. So again how can you say there cb's are a great group? Great at giving up yards is about it. Hell the Vikings ranked 26th and gave up 251.2 pass yards per game. So if the packers have a great group of cb's like you say, then the Vikings must have elite corners already. So what is the point in drafting a cb with our first pick?

You can try all you wat to convince people on why we should draft a cb but in the end it would be foolish and you know it. You are just having a problem admitting it.

and their only significant signing in the last few years in FA was Charles Woodson.. all those
take the LT!!

Jarlvik
03-28-2012, 05:11 PM
Most of what I'm hearing about Kalil is that he's the best OT in the draft. Very few are saying "franchise", "elite", "can't miss"...rather they are saying "solid", "room for improvement", "needs to develop as a run blocker".
Fast and athletic, but doesn't rate nearly as high as Thomas or Long.
I love all the speculation because there are some solid options out there.
Claiborn has some "holes" too. Blackmon is no guarantee. 5 years ago the Lions would have given their entire draft for him, because, as we all know, top rated WR's are "bank".
BPA, trade down, I just don't care. As long as we get more than 2 starters out this this frigin' draft.

kevoncox
03-28-2012, 05:58 PM
Most of what I'm hearing about Kalil is that he's the best OT in the draft. Very few are saying "franchise", "elite", "can't miss"...rather they are saying "solid", "room for improvement", "needs to develop as a run blocker".
Fast and athletic, but doesn't rate nearly as high as Thomas or Long.
I love all the speculation because there are some solid options out there.
Claiborn has some "holes" too. Blackmon is no guarantee. 5 years ago the Lions would have given their entire draft for him, because, as we all know, top rated WR's are "bank".
BPA, trade down, I just don't care. As long as we get more than 2 starters out this this frigin' draft.

Lets stop the madness
"The most complete tackle I have evaluated in my time scouting prospects, Kalil has the athleticism to excel as a pass-blocker and the mean streak to be a force in the running game."

-Todd McShay -

2012 NFL Mock Draft - Projecting the first two rounds - ESPN (http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft2012/story?id=7745867&_slug_=2012-nfl-mock-draft-projecting-first-two-rounds&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl%2fdraft2012%2fstory%3fid%3d7745867%26_slug_%3d2012-nfl-mock-draft-projecting-first-two-rounds)

Freakout
03-28-2012, 06:04 PM
I think people are overlooking the impact Safety's have with the Cover 2. A blue chip caliber Safety is more valuable than a blue chip Cornerback.

I bet if you went back and watched video of all the touchdown's given up I bet around 70% was due to the Safety being out of position leaving the Cornerback out to dry.

CPonderFan
03-28-2012, 09:41 PM
I think people are overlooking the impact Safety's have with the Cover 2. A blue chip caliber Safety is more valuable than a blue chip Cornerback.

I bet if you went back and watched video of all the touchdown's given up I bet around 70% was due to the Safety being out of position leaving the Cornerback out to dry.

Thats why I would love to see Barron available at the top of the 2n round :)

Purple Floyd
03-28-2012, 10:05 PM
It doesn't make sense to pass on a franchise LT



We just gave our last franchise LT away.


... all those guys you mentioned are either late draft picks or bumbs... if we are going to have any chance on offense.. it will involve Ponder not running for his life...


If we had a deep drop offense I would agree with you but we are running a short pass, 2 TE offense. Things develop faster and there are TE's and FB's galore to help out with the pass protection so a franchise LT is less important.A good one- yes.


as far as a CB... we don't need an elite CB in a cover-2 scheme... all they have to do is play their zones, maybe do a little press coverage, release to the safety and sit in their zone... LT's are more valuable than CB's anyway..

That is funny. If that is your metric it can also be said we don't need a franchise LT because we run a WCO and all they need to do is deflect the DE a bit until the QB gets rid of the ball, which should be in less than 3 seconds at most and often half that time.





.. that's why you see tons of them on the open market but not elite franchise LT's...


You see them on the market only because the teams cannot afford to pay what an elite CB can command so teams end up losing them. How many elite CB's leave from teams because the coaches didn't think they really wanted them and felt they would do better with a less talented replacement?

CPonderFan
03-28-2012, 10:17 PM
We just gave our last franchise LT away.



If we had a deep drop offense I would agree with you but we are running a short pass, 2 TE offense. Things develop faster and there are TE's and FB's galore to help out with the pass protection so a franchise LT is less important.A good one- yes.



That is funny. If that is your metric it can also be said we don't need a franchise LT because we run a WCO and all they need to do is deflect the DE a bit until the QB gets rid of the ball, which should be in less than 3 seconds at most and often half that time.





You see them on the market only because the teams cannot afford to pay what an elite CB can command so teams end up losing them. How many elite CB's leave from teams because the coaches didn't think they really wanted them and felt they would do better with a less talented replacement?

Exactly...Thats why Asomugha was the top prospect of all positions last season. Oline is important dont get me wrong, but Top CBs and WRs are always the first players signed.

Purple Floyd
03-30-2012, 07:40 AM
For those who are bitching about the LT and RT maybe at least look at this site:
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2011 OFFENSIVE LINES (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol)

They graded out the lines and individual position play for the whole league and we graded out at 18, only 2 behind GB and by their metrics the LT and RT were right at mid pack while the RG and LG were right near the bottom.

So if we want to improve the OL play then do as i said and move back from 3 to a spot we can take Decastro and then go get Martin at the back end of the 1st and we will be in better shape overall than taking the T at the 3 spot.

mountainviking
03-30-2012, 12:16 PM
For those who are bitching about the LT and RT maybe at least look at this site:
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2011 OFFENSIVE LINES (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol)

They graded out the lines and individual position play for the whole league and we graded out at 18, only 2 behind GB and by their metrics the LT and RT were right at mid pack while the RG and LG were right near the bottom.

So if we want to improve the OL play then do as i said and move back from 3 to a spot we can take Decastro and then go get Martin at the back end of the 1st and we will be in better shape overall than taking the T at the 3 spot.

WOW! Those guys get into it!!

Actually, in the running game play-by-play breakdown, only runs off Right Tackle are doing well, 3rd in the league. What do ya know? The Load would appear to be good at something!? Anybody know off hand if Jimmy K lined up on the left or right more often...? ;)

BUT, The rest is mid to ugly! Running off left end came in 28th in the league, Left Tackle and Mid/Guard at 16th, and out around Right End ranked 19th in Adjusted Line Yards. Ick! Our running backs are working way too hard to stay above average! Adding an upgrade at LT and moving Charlie inside is a must! Seems obvious it would help the run game as much as the passing game.

But I'm not saying we have to go Kalil. I think there's still going to be some pretty talented Run Blocker LTs available at the top of the 2nd, and a true threat to catch and score deep would really help give the rest of our dink-n-dunk offense some space to work! ;)

Additionally, as far as a best bang for your buck, to excite a bummed franchise with no home, type of guy, the playmaker at WR is going to help the most, both on-field with our QB development and big play potential, but off field selling jerseys and maybe, more importantly, hope!

mountainviking
03-30-2012, 12:21 PM
EeeeOOOOOUUUW!!! AND LAST IN THE LEAGUE IN ADJUSTED SACK RATE!!!!!

OUCH!! :beatupchickensmall:

please...do...something!

mountainviking
03-30-2012, 01:50 PM
Furthermore... FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2011 WIDE RECEIVERS (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr)


The simple version: DYAR means a wide receiver with more total value. DVOA means a wide receiver with more value per play.

So, in their crazy in-depth ranking of total value, of the 92 WRs that had 50 or more passes thrown their way, we had 3. Aromashadu was the 92nd, and only caught 31% of passes, basically of all the teams' third on the depth chart WRs in the NFL, he was last. Jenkins came in at 49, right in the middle of the pack of 2nd WRs. Harvin was 28th, which would be great production from a no.2, but is bottom of the pack for a no.1 Wideout.

We need a no.1 guy because of how much it improves the rest of our depth, upgrade at the top and every body else is suddenly above average for their level of reps & production. Pretty sure, the chance of getting a real no.1 threat in the 2nd is greatly diminished from the top of the first.

I guess, either way, LT then WR or vice versa, cuz if we don't get Ponder and Webb some help at OL AND WR, they will remain near the bottom and, eventually, lose whatever confidence they might have entered the league with. :(

Purple Floyd
03-30-2012, 09:47 PM
Furthermore... FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2011 WIDE RECEIVERS (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr)



So, in their crazy in-depth ranking of total value, of the 92 WRs that had 50 or more passes thrown their way, we had 3. Aromashadu was the 92nd, and only caught 31% of passes, basically of all the teams' third on the depth chart WRs in the NFL, he was last. Jenkins came in at 49, right in the middle of the pack of 2nd WRs. Harvin was 28th, which would be great production from a no.2, but is bottom of the pack for a no.1 Wideout.

We need a no.1 guy because of how much it improves the rest of our depth, upgrade at the top and every body else is suddenly above average for their level of reps & production. Pretty sure, the chance of getting a real no.1 threat in the 2nd is greatly diminished from the top of the first.

I guess, either way, LT then WR or vice versa, cuz if we don't get Ponder and Webb some help at OL AND WR, they will remain near the bottom and, eventually, lose whatever confidence they might have entered the league with. :(

So maybe you would be interested in the pass defense ranking before you throw claiborne under the bus.


FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2011 DEFENSIVE EFFICIENCY RATINGS (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef)

We ranked 9 against the rush and 32nd against the pass and 32nd when facing a #1 WR.

But I guess kalil will fix that lol.

Ranger
03-31-2012, 01:31 AM
So maybe you would be interested in the pass defense ranking before you throw claiborne under the bus.


FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2011 DEFENSIVE EFFICIENCY RATINGS (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef)

We ranked 9 against the rush and 32nd against the pass and 32nd when facing a #1 WR.

But I guess kalil will fix that lol.

After watching the team, we have three needs. A blind side protector for 'ole Ponder, a #1 receiver, and help in the secondary. Those three positions will all be open with our first pick. I really wont complain too much if we get Blackmon, Claiborne, or Kalil. Win, win, win.

kevoncox
03-31-2012, 05:31 AM
I'm not against trading back but it would have to be for an extra a first next year and a 2nd this year.
Floyd, your thoughts on picking up Decastro and Martin. Aren't bad ones. If we it still at 3 however, we have to take Kalil.

singersp
03-31-2012, 09:01 AM
For those who are bitching about the LT and RT maybe at least look at this site:
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2011 OFFENSIVE LINES (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol)

They graded out the lines and individual position play for the whole league and we graded out at 18, only 2 behind GB and by their metrics the LT and RT were right at mid pack while the RG and LG were right near the bottom.

So if we want to improve the OL play then do as i said and move back from 3 to a spot we can take Decastro and then go get Martin at the back end of the 1st and we will be in better shape overall than taking the T at the 3 spot.


They graded out the lines and individual position play for the whole league and we graded out at 18, only 2 behind GB and by their metrics

You need to take a closer look. The #18 ranking is for run blocking only.

AD's average helped to skew that stat. Furthermore, as I have mentioned several times here, our rushers get nailed behind the LOS way to much. In the "stuffed rankings" the Vikings ranked 28th, meaning only 4 other teams had runners stuffed behind the line more than us. Do you believe that's because the OL can't contain the defenders or because AD hit's the line & tips over if there's not a gaping hole?

Also, we have been better at run blocking than we were at pass blocking.

Take a gander at the pass blocking stats. We were the worst pass blocking OL in the league at #32. No team was worse. Not a single team. The 9.8% sack rate was the worst in the league, meaning that our QB was sacked the most times per pass attempt.


the LT and RT were right at mid pack while the RG and LG were right near the bottom.

Again, this is for run stats only & it was the LT & the RT that were worse than the RG & LG. Not sure which stats you're looking at.

Ranking the Vikings runs;

Between the C & the Gs: 16th
Between the G & LT: 16th
Between the G & RT: 3rd
Outside the LT: 28th
Outside the RT: 19th

mountainviking
03-31-2012, 11:52 AM
So maybe you would be interested in the pass defense ranking before you throw claiborne under the bus.


FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2011 DEFENSIVE EFFICIENCY RATINGS (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef)

We ranked 9 against the rush and 32nd against the pass and 32nd when facing a #1 WR.

But I guess kalil will fix that lol.

Having Cook and Winfield for an extra 21 games might help tho! ;)

I'm not against Claiborne by any means! Pairing him with Cook and moving Winny to nickel/safety sounds like an awesome trio of Corners! I just think Kalil or Blackmon or Floyd (specially if we can add an extra 2nd this year) helps us a lot more. Pretty tough for a QB to develop well with bottom of the league production from most of the rest of the offense (excluding the running game).

My other thing with spending a top five pick on CB is where the game has been going...the rules have been bent to favor the passing game. Seems no matter how good your secondary is, eventually, a good offense will find a hole or a seam somewhere and score anyway.

We're sitting pretty. All three of our needs have top prospects available at no.3! I just think our best case scenario might be to move back with Miami to no.8, and collect a 2nd this year and hopefully, their 2nd next year, after all, the Marshall trade gave them 2 thirds this year and next! Then, we snag Floyd to give our QBs a true threat that will open up the rest of the offense a lil, and back him up with Ponder's familiar backside protector, Zebrie Sanders, LT FSU 6'6" 320.

Zebrie Sanders, Florida State, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1630286)


Pass Blocking: Has good footwork and technique. Balanced and agile pass protection set with excellent hand placement. Lone concern is handling the super-quick NFL edge rusher. Foot speed and quickness are very good, but not elite. Has the power and bend needed to anchor against the bull rush. Easily loses balance when he misses initial punch.

Run Blocking: Has the ability to sink his hips and generate real power with strong hands. Consistently moves defenders back. Grades out extremely well in every aspect of run blocking.

We have TEs and a FB to help with super speedy pass rushers, so his "Lone Concern," has help already in place in our offense. And, we have another early 2nd to address our secondary too. But I might lean toward Safety first...the CBs will likely be largely picked over, but a top three option at S might still be there and finally fill a weak hole we've had for decades.


"You can give Christain Ponder all the time in the world back there...but all the time in the world isn't going to get Michael Jenkins open." -Baldinger arguing why the Vikes should go with Blackmon over Kalil on NFLN.

CPonderFan
03-31-2012, 03:22 PM
I think that drafting a CB would be a mistake in the first round. Next season when we are sitting at 10-15 range we can pick up a solid CB then. To make a difference for Ponder we need to draft OL and WR. I personally like trading down from 3 and getting additional picks and selecting Floyd or Hill. Either one fits into our plans much better. Plus if that happens we are certain to get an extra 2nd rounder thsi season so in the second round we could get our SF (hopefully Barron) and our LT (Hopefully Osemele). That would be a perfect 1st and 2nd round draft for us. Not to mention we would probably get late round picks or picks next season included in the trade down.

The talk on Tannehill is heating up and Cleveland is talking about posibly drafting him...That makes a desperate Miami a likely canidate to trade up and probably give us some good picks to do it.

singersp
04-01-2012, 10:27 AM
I think that drafting a CB would be a mistake in the first round. Next season when we are sitting at 10-15 range we can pick up a solid CB then.

When our 1st round pick is after the top 10 of the draft, I believe we'll be looking at 2015, not 2013.

Look for them to go after a QB next year with a top 6 pick

CPonderFan
04-01-2012, 11:13 PM
When our 1st round pick is after the top 10 of the draft, I believe we'll be looking at 2015, not 2013.

Look for them to go after a QB next year with a top 6 pick

Thats the great thing about a forum...You get to have an opinion and so does everyone else. I learned a long time ago that opinions are like A-Holes...Everybody has one!

I really think that Ponder has the tools. I question his deepball accuracy...but Joe Montana didnt have great down field accuracy. In the West Coast offense you dont have to have the deep ball, but you do need to have explosive players. Players that can get seperation off the LOS. Then its about making the read and throwing the ball. I think Ponder has the tools to work in this offense.

I also dont agree with the draft position next season...I think that if we draft right this season we could be at or around the 10th pick and then the following season a playoff contender. But we have to make the right choices and ...most of all have a little luck on our side.

OL, WRs, Sproles type HB , SF and of course CB. We have 10 picks...We can gt a few of these needs filled this season :)

Purple Floyd
04-01-2012, 11:20 PM
Having Cook and Winfield for an extra 21 games might help tho! ;)

I'm not against Claiborne by any means! Pairing him with Cook and moving Winny to nickel/safety sounds like an awesome trio of Corners! I just think Kalil or Blackmon or Floyd (specially if we can add an extra 2nd this year) helps us a lot more. Pretty tough for a QB to develop well with bottom of the league production from most of the rest of the offense (excluding the running game).

My other thing with spending a top five pick on CB is where the game has been going...the rules have been bent to favor the passing game. Seems no matter how good your secondary is, eventually, a good offense will find a hole or a seam somewhere and score anyway.

We're sitting pretty. All three of our needs have top prospects available at no.3! I just think our best case scenario might be to move back with Miami to no.8, and collect a 2nd this year and hopefully, their 2nd next year, after all, the Marshall trade gave them 2 thirds this year and next! Then, we snag Floyd to give our QBs a true threat that will open up the rest of the offense a lil, and back him up with Ponder's familiar backside protector, Zebrie Sanders, LT FSU 6'6" 320.

Zebrie Sanders, Florida State, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1630286)


We have TEs and a FB to help with super speedy pass rushers, so his "Lone Concern," has help already in place in our offense. And, we have another early 2nd to address our secondary too. But I might lean toward Safety first...the CBs will likely be largely picked over, but a top three option at S might still be there and finally fill a weak hole we've had for decades.

I would not be upset with your scenario,

singersp
04-02-2012, 08:13 AM
Thats the great thing about a forum...You get to have an opinion and so does everyone else. I learned a long time ago that opinions are like A-Holes...Everybody has one!

And that would include yourself as well!



I really think that Ponder has the tools. I question his deepball accuracy...but Joe Montana didnt have great down field accuracy. In the West Coast offense you dont have to have the deep ball, but you do need to have explosive players. Players that can get seperation off the LOS. Then its about making the read and throwing the ball. I think Ponder has the tools to work in this offense.

I also dont agree with the draft position next season...I think that if we draft right this season we could be at or around the 10th pick and then the following season a playoff contender. But we have to make the right choices and ...most of all have a little luck on our side.

OL, WRs, Sproles type HB , SF and of course CB. We have 10 picks...We can gt a few of these needs filled this season :)

No, you don't have to have a deep ball, but you damn better sure have the threat of one.

The problem with our version of the WCO is that we have AD. Teams typically stack the box when he's in there to stop the run. They can afford to do that because we don't have a deep threat QB or deep threat WR's.

With that said, there are 8-9 guys in the box covering AD which also makes completing short passes that much more difficult since we don't spread the defense thin often enough.

mountainviking
04-02-2012, 10:26 AM
And that would include yourself as well!



No, you don't have to have a deep ball, but you damn better sure have the threat of one.

The problem with our version of the WCO is that we have AD. Teams typically stack the box when he's in there to stop the run. They can afford to do that because we don't have a deep threat QB or deep threat WR's.

With that said, there are 8-9 guys in the box covering AD which also makes completing short passes that much more difficult since we don't spread the defense thin often enough.

Exactly! We've seen this same freaking problem since we traded Moss away and Chiller took over. The same zone blitz that stuffs our running game clogs our short passing lanes too! We have to come up with some sort of deep threat, because it will finally force defenses to actually have to prepare more than one scheme to stop us, and open up some of the underneath stuff we want to do but so often can't.

IF you look back at Moss' last games with us, I guarantee you will find that AP, Percy and maybe even Shank's averages went up by 20-40% per game. And that was just with a decoy, you add in a few big yardage passing TDs, and maybe, just maybe, we can score like the rest of our division can score.

IF we do stand pat and collect Kalil, I hope we also do whatever it takes to land one of the premier WRs of this draft, even if it means giving up our third to move our 2nd up.

It comes down to this: QB Development has to be priority number one! So, go get some talent for them and start building the chemistry and continuity NOW.

bleedpurple
04-02-2012, 10:55 AM
We just gave our last franchise LT away.



[QUOTE]If we had a deep drop offense I would agree with you but we are running a short pass, 2 TE offense. Things develop faster and there are TE's and FB's galore to help out with the pass protection so a franchise LT is less important.A good one- yes.

Doesn't matter... We have two tight ends to go run patterns A'La the Pats attack or the old vikes under Denny Green and Tice... Why would we draft a TE in the second round and sign another to a $25M contract just to block?? We need a LT to give Ponder time and keep him from getting his ass kicked like last year.. Furthermore, we have the best RB in the game.. But he gets hit behind the LOS more than any other back... We an upgrade at LT... Additionally, while we need a corner, We need safety help more..


That is funny. If that is your metric it can also be said we don't need a franchise LT because we run a WCO and all they need to do is deflect the DE a bit until the QB gets rid of the ball, which should be in less than 3 seconds at most and often half that time.

OH, like we did last year?? Charlie Johnson did a great job of that... (roll my eyes)

the Eagles run a WCO and they have an elite LT (though he's out for the season and they are now freaking out... Ponder needs time...





You see them on the market only because the teams cannot afford to pay what an elite CB can command so teams end up losing them. How many elite CB's leave from teams because the coaches didn't think they really wanted them and felt they would do better with a less talented replacement?

NO you see them on the market bc they are not worth what they get paid many times unless your name is Revis.... You think the Eagles are regretting giving Nhamdi all that money last year?? many times teams money is tied up in LT and QB... that's why you see elite CB's on the market more than any other position... Teams know to lock up an elite LT... Name the last elite LT probowl caliber tackle to be on the market???? You can't because teams lock them up.... LT is probably the highest paid position next to QB.. why? because you want to protect your #1 investment on the team....

Corner is important, but not as important than LT... But nice try though....

seaniemck7
04-02-2012, 11:36 AM
I am with BP here. Try and find the last time a CB or any DB for that matter was drafted in the top 3. The closest in the last 10+ years is 5. Draft history shows what the market bears for positions come draft time, not who gets overpaid in Free Agency. IMO, team priorities by position rank is:
1. QB
2. LT
3. DE/CB (DE in C-2 type teams, CB in man-press type teams)
4. CB/DE (Flop with #3 by type of D you play)
5. CB

If you dont have a franchise players at those positions, you cannot pass one up when the opportunity presents it self.

bleedpurple
04-02-2012, 12:32 PM
I am with BP here. Try and find the last time a CB or any DB for that matter was drafted in the top 3. The closest in the last 10+ years is 5. Draft history shows what the market bears for positions come draft time, not who gets overpaid in Free Agency. IMO, team priorities by position rank is:
1. QB
2. LT
3. DE/CB (DE in C-2 type teams, CB in man-press type teams)
4. CB/DE (Flop with #3 by type of D you play)
5. CB

If you dont have a franchise players at those positions, you cannot pass one up when the opportunity presents it self.

I must disagree with our priorities... We need a WR and Linebackers who can cover more than a DE.. I we don't draft DE I'll be fine with that....

1. LT
2. WR
3. S
4. LB/CB
5. CB/LB

That's not to say draft in that order... I still am a firm believer in BPA...

seaniemck7
04-02-2012, 11:27 PM
I must disagree with our priorities... We need a WR and Linebackers who can cover more than a DE.. I we don't draft DE I'll be fine with that....

1. LT
2. WR
3. S
4. LB/CB
5. CB/LB

That's not to say draft in that order... I still am a firm believer in BPA...

My apologies. I should have been more clear. Those rankings I posted are what you need to build a team period, not what the Vikes priorities should be. If we think Ponder is our franchise QB, which he should be taking him at 12 last year, then position #1 is filled. We therefore should be taking Kalil to fill position #2. JA fills slot #3. Cook being back and Winfield should be filling slots 4 and/or 5. Both will come in with some rust, but Winfield has the 5th highest salary on the team for 2012 right now.

So again, I agree with you on what the Vikings priorities should be in the draft for the most part.

singersp
04-03-2012, 06:34 AM
My apologies. I should have been more clear. Those rankings I posted are what you need to build a team period, not what the Vikes priorities should be. If we think Ponder is our franchise QB, which he should be taking him at 12 last year, then position #1 is filled. We therefore should be taking Kalil to fill position #2. JA fills slot #3. Cook being back and Winfield should be filling slots 4 and/or 5. Both will come in with some rust, but Winfield has the 5th highest salary on the team for 2012 right now.

So again, I agree with you on what the Vikings priorities should be in the draft for the most part.

With that said, I still disagree with your list.

How can a QB have success without a WR? You don't have a WR as a necessity in your to 5.

Without a go to WR or a RB, what does the QB do with the ball?

singersp
04-03-2012, 06:51 AM
Will Vikings blindside the draft at No. 3?

Will Vikings blindside the draft at No. 3? (http://www.csnwashington.com/football-washington-redskins/redskins-talk/will-vikings-blindside-the-draft-at-no-3?blockID=681228&feedID=10316)

McShay: "The most complete tackle I have evaluated in my time scouting prospects, Kalil has the athleticism to excel as a pass-blocker and the mean streak to be a force in the running game."

Walter: "Kalil is the best non-quarterback in this class, and Minnesota has a major need at left tackle, where the pedestrian Charlie Johnson has sucked all year. The Vikings absolutely need to make sure Christian Ponder is well protected."

12purplepride28
04-03-2012, 08:26 AM
Well, at least we know he's a genius
Claiborne gives birth to a four on the Wonderlic | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/03/claiborne-gives-birth-to-a-four-on-the-wonderlic/)

12purplepride28
04-03-2012, 08:27 AM
How can a QB have success without a WR? You don't have a WR as a necessity in your to 5.


Ask Tom Brady. Although I do agree that WR needs to be up there.

tastywaves
04-03-2012, 09:31 AM
Well, at least we know he's a genius
Claiborne gives birth to a four on the Wonderlic | ProFootballTalk (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/03/claiborne-gives-birth-to-a-four-on-the-wonderlic/)

A 4! What did he get right, his name, age, sex and college. I wonder if this guy can even read.

Granted you don't need to be a genius to play db in the NFL and obviously it doesn't effect your draft position. Maybe it's time to use a different test.

bleedpurple
04-03-2012, 01:21 PM
With that said, I still disagree with your list.

How can a QB have success without a WR? You don't have a WR as a necessity in your to 5.

Without a go to WR or a RB, what does the QB do with the ball?

With all do respect... IN GENERAL.... While an elite receiver is always nice... With an elite QB, (which by the way we don't have), we wouldn't necessarily need an elite WR.. An above average one would be nice though... With an elite QB.. they can throw wide receivers open and make receivers better than they appear to be... A'La... wait for it.... Bret Favre.. When they were winning in his best years, he had Antonio Freeman and andre rison catching passes.. Brady aside from Moss has never had an elite receiver.... While I agree both the positions go hand in hand as a compliment... If we had an above average receiver, and an elite QB.. we wouldn't necessarily need the next Moss...

HOWEVER....

Since Spielman is our GM and Ponder, unfortunately, our QB... an elite WR prospect is necessary.... unfortunately....

seaniemck7
04-03-2012, 01:31 PM
Ask Tom Brady. Although I do agree that WR needs to be up there.

That is the answer to Singer's question. I am not saying you don't need a WR at all. I am saying you cannot build a football team around one, or 3 for that matter (ala Millen's Detroit), without a QB and the ability to protect him. While you are talking to Tom, feel free to ask Brees and Farve to join the conversation.

i_bleed_purple
04-03-2012, 02:24 PM
Ask Tom Brady. Although I do agree that WR needs to be up there.

Tom Brady throughout his career had at minimum one decent option. Whether it be stallworth, branch, troy Brown, Moss, Welker.

All of those players (probably even today) are better than our second best option.

PackSux!
04-03-2012, 04:58 PM
LOL! And some people actually want us to draft him at number 3.

singersp
04-03-2012, 06:59 PM
Ask Tom Brady. Although I do agree that WR needs to be up there.

1. We don't have Tom Brady now do we? We have Christian Ponder.

2. So if you don't believe a WR is one of the top 5 positions on the team, where do you believe the position ranks in importance?

singersp
04-03-2012, 07:02 PM
With all do respect... IN GENERAL.... While an elite receiver is always nice... With an elite QB, (which by the way we don't have), we wouldn't necessarily need an elite WR.. An above average one would be nice though... With an elite QB.. they can throw wide receivers open and make receivers better than they appear to be... A'La... wait for it.... Bret Favre.. When they were winning in his best years, he had Antonio Freeman and andre rison catching passes.. Brady aside from Moss has never had an elite receiver.... While I agree both the positions go hand in hand as a compliment... If we had an above average receiver, and an elite QB.. we wouldn't necessarily need the next Moss...

HOWEVER....

Since Spielman is our GM and Ponder, unfortunately, our QB... an elite WR prospect is necessary.... unfortunately....

No one is talking about the necessity of an elite WR. We are talking about the WR being one of the top 5 key positions on a team.

Where do you rank the position of WR?

singersp
04-03-2012, 07:31 PM
That is the answer to Singer's question. I am not saying you don't need a WR at all. I am saying you cannot build a football team around one, or 3 for that matter (ala Millen's Detroit), without a QB and the ability to protect him. While you are talking to Tom, feel free to ask Brees and Farve to join the conversation.

No, what you are saying is the top 5 important key players on a team in your opinion are;

1. QB
2. LT
3. DE/CB (DE in C-2 type teams, CB in man-press type teams)
4. CB/DE (Flop with #3 by type of D you play)
5. CB

And apparently we are supposed to build our team around CB's in slots 3, 4 & 5 before even considering a WR, TE or RB.

Did you want me to ask Tom, Brees & Favre how lucky they were that their GM's built their teams around DE's & CB's before a WR?

While I'm at it do you want me to ask them how many SuperBowls they think they would have won if only they had Bernard Berrian, Troy Williamson, Devin Aromashodu & Greg Camarillo instead of Welker, Moss, Branch, Driver, Freeman, Sharpe, Lofton or Colston?

Exactly where after punter do you rank the need for solid WR's? TE'S? RB's?

BTW, CB's & DE's do not protect the QB.

Also to note: Christian Ponder needs to perform a hell of a lot better before he can even wash the jocks of Brady, Brees & Favre.

A QB, with all the time in the world, with the likes of Berrian or Williamson will gain you nothing.

Purple Floyd
04-03-2012, 07:45 PM
It's always better to protect the QB and have no players to score points and no defense to stop the opposition than it is to have players who acore points and players who prevent points from being scored. That is Rubeball 101.

Purple Floyd
04-03-2012, 07:52 PM
LOL! And some people actually want us to draft him at number 3.



When Claiborne came out of high school, the schools that recruited him knew he had a learning disability. I donít know much about his disability other than it has to do with reading. Everyone I have talked to tells me that Claiborne has great character and is a great kid. He knows and understands his disability and uses all the resources that LSU has available to control it and to help him get by in the classroom. When it comes to football he puts in extra time to learn and understand his assignments and it is not a problem. Will he need reps? Probably, but no more than the usual rookie would need. In saying that, Claiborneís test score was NOT a true indicator of his intelligence. He can and does learn.





He has a reading disability but he works hard to improve himself and you go busting his balls for testing low. You are normally a pretty decent guy even if we don't agree on things but IMO it is being a asshole to bust on a guy because he has a disability. Anyway, if you pick players based on the Wunderlick have fun with it.

Purple Floyd
04-03-2012, 07:57 PM
What you should know about Claiborne's test score | National Football Post (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/What-you-should-know-about-Claibornes-test-score.html)



Claiborne is expected to be drafted in the top 5 of this monthís NFL Draft. What I suspect happened is a club drafting after 5 leaked the test score to try and scare off teams in the top 5 from drafting Claiborne. The clubs have known the results of these scores for weeks. If they had any questions about a player's ability to learn they have had plenty of time to do their research to feel if they are comfortable with drafting Claiborne. The team leaking the score is hoping that the public backlash for drafting a player with such a low score will scare them off. Unfortunately, this is dirty pool but it often happens this time of year in the NFL. Just remember, if you start to hear a lot of negative things about some highly rated players in the next few weeks, itís because a team who drafts later in the round wants the player to drop so they can have an opportunity to select him.

BBQ Platypus
04-03-2012, 08:45 PM
It's always better to protect the QB and have no players to score points and no defense to stop the opposition than it is to have players who acore points and players who prevent points from being scored. That is Rubeball 101.
I see you're still at it. Would it be pointless to remind you once again that literally no one is saying this? People who think drafting Kalil is a good idea are in no sense advocating the idea that we should completely ignore the skill positions. We have multiple picks this year and will have multiple picks next year. We will have plenty of opportunities to address our needs over the next few years.

You've been bludgeoning this board over the head with the blunt end of this strawman argument for months now. Sit down, take your meds, and talk about something else for a change, Floyd. You're making yourself look like an asshole.

BBQ Platypus
04-03-2012, 09:06 PM
As for the broader issue, I would be happy if they drafted either Kalil or Claiborne. Both are excellent players who would help the team out a lot at a position of need. You could make a case for either as the BPA (though a slightly stronger case for Kalil in my admittedly non-expert opinion). The Wonderlic isn't a problem - Claiborne went to LSU, we already know he's dumb. Hasn't stopped him so far. Besides, he's going to be a starting CB (in a Cover 2, no less), not a QB.

I'd have a bit of a problem (not a huge one, but a bit of one) if they took Blackmon. It's not that he isn't good, but there seems to be a guy like him in every draft. There's nothing especially esoteric about him, and it's not like it's a position that absolutely can't be filled in later rounds (and later drafts - it's going to take more than one to right this ship). Keep in mind that Greg Jennings went in the second round while Wes Welker and Victor Cruz weren't drafted at all. It's not like we're missing out on our last chance if we don't take him in the first.

Last year, 19 receivers had 1000-yard seasons and 30 had 900-yard seasons. Having good weapons for your QB is important, but it's not like good receivers are especially hard to find in today's league. They don't need to prototype guys that are tall, handsy, AND fast anymore - a wider range of receivers can be successful with the current pro-offense rules in play. In this sort of climate, it's a lot easier for a receiver to "make it" in this league.

mountainviking
04-04-2012, 11:31 AM
I think people are missing the boat a lil on Blackmon. To me, there's NO DOUBT that he's right up there as far as being a fit for us in talent and need with the other two options at pick #3, and here's why:

SOOOOO, many of these badass WRs have Diva and/or behavior issues! Rarely do you see a star at that position who has the work-ethic, cool demeanor, and decision making to stay out of trouble and be the best they can be like Calvin Johnson. Blackmon is that guy. The intangibles are there, right along side top end speed, good size, great strength and balance, and loads of production on tape to back it up!

And don't give me this poor Tom Brady and Drew Brees crapola!!! :mad:

They've both been surrounded by good players for pretty much their entire careers! Brady had a WR that set the record for TDs, and now, a TE set that record. He's also got the best slot guy in the biz, and has always had a good defense and OL to back him up too. Same with the Saints...sure, there's not one standout guy, there's like 6 of them: Colston, Meachum, Henderson, Sproles, Bush, Jimmy Graham, etc! There's a lot of early picks there, and injury aside, any one of those guys would be an upgrade to our recieving talent!

ITs a TEAM GAME! Your QB makes your OL look good and vice versa! Your WRs make your QB look good and vice versa! It goes both ways or it most likely goes down the toilet. Even Peyton Manning has had a bevy of first round picks around him: Marvin Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Edge, Addai, Gonzales, Don Brown and 2 of the past three years a first round pick on OL!!

We need, not necessarily in order, LT, deep-threat WR, multiple Ss and CBs, a MLB, a "WarPig" DT, and a new stadium! We can't fill all those holes in one draft. We're devoping 2 young QBs.

I just happen to think our old-school, smash-mouth team might like the elite WR first, run blocking LT second, more than an elite athletic but undersized run blocker LT first with more of a developmental with plenty potential WR second...

But we won't know for sure til April 27th, after the first 3 rounds are in the books.

seaniemck7
04-04-2012, 01:21 PM
No, what you are saying is the top 5 important key players on a team in your opinion are;

1. QB
2. LT
3. DE/CB (DE in C-2 type teams, CB in man-press type teams)
4. CB/DE (Flop with #3 by type of D you play)
5. CB

And apparently we are supposed to build our team around CB's in slots 3, 4 & 5 before even considering a WR, TE or RB.

Did you want me to ask Tom, Brees & Favre how lucky they were that their GM's built their teams around DE's & CB's before a WR?

While I'm at it do you want me to ask them how many SuperBowls they think they would have won if only they had Bernard Berrian, Troy Williamson, Devin Aromashodu & Greg Camarillo instead of Welker, Moss, Branch, Driver, Freeman, Sharpe, Lofton or Colston?

Exactly where after punter do you rank the need for solid WR's? TE'S? RB's?

BTW, CB's & DE's do not protect the QB.

Also to note: Christian Ponder needs to perform a hell of a lot better before he can even wash the jocks of Brady, Brees & Favre.

A QB, with all the time in the world, with the likes of Berrian or Williamson will gain you nothing.

First of all CBs are not listed in slots 3, 4 and 5. DE takes one of those slots. I donít know who would argue that QB is the most important position on field. Protecting the QB is number one priority. His blindside is where he most vulnerable and the LT is usually going against the one of the defenses best athletes. That brings us to position 3: DE. Rushing the passer and being a disruptive force in the backfield is a great foundation to build a defense. 2 CBs that can cover and a stud DE, you would have to be a moron not to be able to coach up a top 10 defensive unit (unless of course your name is Frazier and run a C-2)Ö Well I am being a bit dramatic in that last statement, but still if I had to build a team from scratch, I am gonna be looking for those top 5 positions as my highest priorities. The one thing I did like about Chillyís early philosophy was to build and win in the trenches.

A WR can put an already good team over the top. A shitty team with an awesome WR is still a shitty team. Look at Brandon Marshall and Miami. He is a stud, and they did pretty much dick with him around. Moss- best in the game- heads to Oakland where they continue to suck. If I could choose any WR in the league right now, I would take Fitzgerald over any other wide out on my team. Yet the year after Kurt retired, he wasnít doing much carrying of the offense.
Tom, Brees and Favre have had for the most part average to above average talent at WR. You can come at me with how sucky Berrian and Williamson were compared to others in the league, but that comment is misguided. Berriand and Troy are EXACTLY the products of what you are asking our folks to do: Draft a WR at #1 or go get a high priced WR free agent. Donít blame me for the fact that we cannot scout WR talent worth a shit.

Oh and by the way wtf did branch do in Seattle? Honestly, who knew who Welker was when the Patriots traded with the Dolphins for a 2nd and 7th rounders? Any reason why Colston didnít even shop his wares in FA? Because he knows he would not be as good in another offensive system. We can call him elite in the brains department though. Sharpe and Moss are the only elite WRs on your list, but Moss and Sharpe are ringless.

The bottom line is, if we think we have the pieces in place where a high end WR will help us win, I am all for it. I contend that we could have had Moss, Fitz and Andre Johnson on our team last year, and Ponder would have still been running for his life.

singersp
04-04-2012, 07:25 PM
First of all CBs are not listed in slots 3, 4 and 5. DE takes one of those slots. I donít know who would argue that QB is the most important position on field. Protecting the QB is number one priority. His blindside is where he most vulnerable and the LT is usually going against the one of the defenses best athletes. That brings us to position 3: DE. Rushing the passer and being a disruptive force in the backfield is a great foundation to build a defense. 2 CBs that can cover and a stud DE, you would have to be a moron not to be able to coach up a top 10 defensive unit (unless of course your name is Frazier and run a C-2)Ö Well I am being a bit dramatic in that last statement, but still if I had to build a team from scratch, I am gonna be looking for those top 5 positions as my highest priorities. The one thing I did like about Chillyís early philosophy was to build and win in the trenches.

A WR can put an already good team over the top. A shitty team with an awesome WR is still a shitty team. Look at Brandon Marshall and Miami. He is a stud, and they did pretty much dick with him around. Moss- best in the game- heads to Oakland where they continue to suck. If I could choose any WR in the league right now, I would take Fitzgerald over any other wide out on my team. Yet the year after Kurt retired, he wasnít doing much carrying of the offense.
Tom, Brees and Favre have had for the most part average to above average talent at WR. You can come at me with how sucky Berrian and Williamson were compared to others in the league, but that comment is misguided. Berriand and Troy are EXACTLY the products of what you are asking our folks to do: Draft a WR at #1 or go get a high priced WR free agent. Donít blame me for the fact that we cannot scout WR talent worth a shit.

Oh and by the way wtf did branch do in Seattle? Honestly, who knew who Welker was when the Patriots traded with the Dolphins for a 2nd and 7th rounders? Any reason why Colston didnít even shop his wares in FA? Because he knows he would not be as good in another offensive system. We can call him elite in the brains department though. Sharpe and Moss are the only elite WRs on your list, but Moss and Sharpe are ringless.

The bottom line is, if we think we have the pieces in place where a high end WR will help us win, I am all for it. I contend that we could have had Moss, Fitz and Andre Johnson on our team last year, and Ponder would have still been running for his life.

I have no problem with a QB & protecting that QB being top priority. I just don't believe the next 3 top priorities on our team should be a DE & 2 CB's in our C-2 defense.

True a shitty team with an awesome receiver may still be a shitty team, but how is that any different than an awesome DE or an awesome CB on a shitty team. Weren't we 3-13 with JA AND Winfield?

We could have an awesome defense & an awesome OL, but if we don't have playmakers in the receiving & rushing departments, we aren't scoring TD's & if we aren't scoring TD's, we aren't winning games.

You keep on bringing up names like Brady, Brees & Favre. Hell, might as well toss Peyton into that mix. Now when people talk about those teams that they are on, do you really think they're talking about how good their DE or DB's are or are they talking about how good their offense is/was?

I think one of the biggest problems we've had in our secondary was not so much the personnel as it was the scheme. We give up those little chunks all day long & teams keep taking them.

Purple Floyd
04-04-2012, 09:25 PM
I see you're still at it. Would it be pointless to remind you once again that literally no one is saying this? People who think drafting Kalil is a good idea are in no sense advocating the idea that we should completely ignore the skill positions. We have multiple picks this year and will have multiple picks next year. We will have plenty of opportunities to address our needs over the next few years.

You've been bludgeoning this board over the head with the blunt end of this strawman argument for months now. Sit down, take your meds, and talk about something else for a change, Floyd. You're making yourself look like an asshole.

AAAAAW Bullshit. :punch:


For some reason it is perfectly valid on the board to say Kalil is the only answer at 3 and there are no other choices and I disagree that there is only one choice. I certainly have not stated my preference any more than the Kalil fans have stated theirs and certainly not as defensively either. :think:

If you think I am an asshole because I feel the team would be better served by trading back and getting more picks, still addressing the LT position and also adding another player of need then fine, I am an asshole. I can live with that.:flame:

I went through the same shit when I said Childress sucked as a coach, that you could stick a fork in TJ because he wasn't going to be our starting QB, that the KAO and the Childress ZB scheme sucked and really got hammered when I said McNabb was washed up and was a stupid signing so I guess being wrong and being an asshole is something I am comfortable with being called by those who supposedly know better. :D

If you so strongly believe that Kalil is the only player who can save the franchise and that no other LT in the draft will be capable of blocking then we can agree to disagree. I personally have no problem with RK. I am sure he has the potential to be a great player and I have been an advocate for taking a LT for years. But drafting this high on the board I would like to get something more than an OL. If we were at 10 or higher that is in my comfort range.


Also, make sure you put me on the asshole list for thinking the coaching staff sucks and needs to be replaced.

PackSux!
04-04-2012, 09:26 PM
I have no problem with a QB & protecting that QB being top priority. I just don't believe the next 3 top priorities on our team should be a DE & 2 CB's in our C-2 defense.

True a shitty team with an awesome receiver may still be a shitty team, but how is that any different than an awesome DE or an awesome CB on a shitty team. Weren't we 3-13 with JA AND Winfield?

We could have an awesome defense & an awesome OL, but if we don't have playmakers in the receiving & rushing departments, we aren't scoring TD's & if we aren't scoring TD's, we aren't winning games.

You keep on bringing up names like Brady, Brees & Favre. Hell, might as well toss Peyton into that mix. Now when people talk about those teams that they are on, do you really think they're talking about how good their DE or DB's are or are they talking about how good their offense is/was?

I think one of the biggest problems we've had in our secondary was not so much the personnel as it was the scheme. We give up those little chunks all day long & teams keep taking them.

Better tackling is a must in this defense. Cook, Carr and Winfield could be a really good trio. Although I fear Winfield is getting a bit to old to perform at his usual level.

singersp
04-05-2012, 06:49 AM
Better tackling is a must in this defense. Cook, Carr and Winfield could be a really good trio. Although I fear Winfield is getting a bit to old to perform at his usual level.

Carr gives us better tackling?

Carr's best year in the NFL;

Chris Carr - 2010: 61 tackles (54 solo) in 16 games

Prior Vikings CB's in their last year with us before being let go;

Cedric Griffin - 2011: 67 tackles (55 solo) in 14 games

Fred Smoot - 2006: 61 tackles (57 solo) in 11 games

bleedpurple
04-05-2012, 10:25 AM
While we could trade the pick and pick up a tackle, I'd rather take the top tackle in the draft... I'm not sure how much the drop off is between Khalil and Reiff, however, If I was the GM, I wouldn't want to take that chance... take the player with the chance of being special... IMO...

with that said, if we were to get a kings ransom like the Rams, then you don't have a choice

1. btw, Childress was awful
2. Never was a fan of TJ... or Culpepper, he fumbled too much and couldn't bring us back if we were down in the 4th quarter...
3. Best coach in my lifetime was Denny Green
4. Our coaching staff sucks.. Why hire a coach who led a defense that underperformed???
5. Our GM sucks just as much... if not more....
6. the KAO was the worst offense i've ever seen until Favre got here the first year... Offense last year wasn't much better.
7. I hate to say it, but our offense performed better when we feature Harvin instead of AP, When AP is in the game the offense is too predictable - bad coaching/playcalling

BBQ Platypus
04-05-2012, 11:50 AM
For some reason it is perfectly valid on the board to say Kalil is the only answer at 3 and there are no other choices and I disagree that there is only one choice. I certainly have not stated my preference any more than the Kalil fans have stated theirs and certainly not as defensively either. :think:
I'll grant you this point if and only if you can bring up quotes in support of this viewpoint. You've certainly expressed your preference for trading the pick far more vocally than the people who think we should draft Kalil have. Largely by insulting the people who think we should draft Kalil and mischaracterizing their arguments.


If you think I am an asshole because I feel the team would be better served by trading back and getting more picks, still addressing the LT position and also adding another player of need then fine, I am an asshole. I can live with that.:flame:
I don't think you're an asshole because you think the Vikings should trade for more picks. I think you're an asshole because you express that opinion in the manner of an emotionally incontinent shitpile.


I went through the same shit when I said Childress sucked as a coach, that you could stick a fork in TJ because he wasn't going to be our starting QB, that the KAO and the Childress ZB scheme sucked and really got hammered when I said McNabb was washed up and was a stupid signing so I guess being wrong and being an asshole is something I am comfortable with being called by those who supposedly know better. :D
Congratulations for being literally the only person on this board who had a problem with Childress, TJ, McNabb, and the KAO. I'm sure you must be proud. Also, congratulations on being unable to deal with people disagreeing with you, or to be able to deal with them being proven wrong with any grace whatsoever.


If you so strongly believe that Kalil is the only player who can save the franchise and that no other LT in the draft will be capable of blocking then we can agree to disagree. I personally have no problem with RK. I am sure he has the potential to be a great player and I have been an advocate for taking a LT for years. But drafting this high on the board I would like to get something more than an OL. If we were at 10 or higher that is in my comfort range.
Again, I've said no such thing. I've said he'd be a big help to the team and that there's a strong case for him being the BPA, which usually tends to be the way to go in the draft. This paragraph makes me question whether you actually read my post.

See, your statement of your position here is actually a sensible, intelligible position that can be debated with. You should stick to posting stuff like this. People tend to be more receptive to your opinions when you actually, you know, express them. As opposed to just pouring buckets of shit over everyone.


Also, make sure you put me on the asshole list for thinking the coaching staff sucks and needs to be replaced.
No, you're actually right here. Doesn't change the fact that you need to climb back into the phonebooth, take off the Captain Angryfuck costume, and change into some big boy clothes.

You're really not helping your case here, Floyd.

C Mac D
04-05-2012, 03:38 PM
Spielman likes a guy that scored a 4 on the wonderlic... he must feel akin to morons.

Spielman's other signing this offseason is widely regarded as the worst FA pickup of 2012: Wow, Now That's Rich - Offseason Low Down - Rotoworld.com (http://rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/40242/59/wow-now-thats-rich)

Fire Spielman.

PackSux!
04-05-2012, 06:09 PM
Carr gives us better tackling?

Carr's best year in the NFL;

Chris Carr - 2010: 61 tackles (54 solo) in 16 games

Prior Vikings CB's in their last year with us before being let go;

Cedric Griffin - 2011: 67 tackles (55 solo) in 14 games

Fred Smoot - 2006: 61 tackles (57 solo) in 11 games

Whats up man? Where did I say Carr is a good tackler? I said this defense needs better tackling!
I also said Cook, Carr and Winfield COULD be a good trio. Don't try to twist my words.

PackSux!
04-05-2012, 06:15 PM
He has a reading disability but he works hard to improve himself and you go busting his balls for testing low. You are normally a pretty decent guy even if we don't agree on things but IMO it is being a asshole to bust on a guy because he has a disability. Anyway, if you pick players based on the Wunderlick have fun with it.

Sorry bud, I was unaware of his learning disability. Going threw that many years of school don't you think it would of been taken care of by now? Shame on his teachers and shame on his parents even more.

Blows my mind how somebody can get threw college with a reading disability, hell he shouldnt even of made it threw elementary school without that being fixed.

Purple Floyd
04-05-2012, 07:12 PM
Sorry bud, I was unaware of his learning disability. Going threw that many years of school don't you think it would of been taken care of by now? Shame on his teachers and shame on his parents even more.



Blows my mind how somebody can get threw college with a reading disability, hell he shouldnt even of made it threw elementary school without that being fixed.

Yeah, I know you didn't know and it wasn't intentional. Just bustin your chops......

C Mac D
04-06-2012, 08:26 AM
Spielman visits another basketball player, this one hasn't played football since high school: Notebook: Vikings visit hoopster (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Notebook_Vikings_face_grievance_from_Kevin_Williams_visit_hoopster040512?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+1500espn%2Fsportswire%2Fvikings+%281500+ESPN+SportsWire+-+Minnesota+Vikings%29&utm_content=Google+Reader)

Honestly, Rick Spielman is destroying this team.

12purplepride28
04-06-2012, 09:17 AM
Spielman visits another basketball player, this one hasn't played football since high school: Notebook: Vikings visit hoopster (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Notebook_Vikings_face_grievance_from_Kevin_Williams_visit_hoopster040512?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+1500espn%2Fsportswire%2Fvikings+%281500+ESPN+SportsWire+-+Minnesota+Vikings%29&utm_content=Google+Reader)

Honestly, Rick Spielman is destroying this team.

Well the Niners, Chargers, Packers, and Giants were also there. So maybe it wasn't completely stupid to go. Who knows, bring in athletes and if just one of them turns out to anything like Jimmy Graham then we got a huge bargain. If it doesn't work out, cut your losses and move on. Not a big deal.

C Mac D
04-06-2012, 10:14 AM
Well the Niners, Chargers, Packers, and Giants were also there. So maybe it wasn't completely stupid to go. Who knows, bring in athletes and if just one of them turns out to anything like Jimmy Graham then we got a huge bargain. If it doesn't work out, cut your losses and move on. Not a big deal.

None of those teams were 3-13 last year and can afford to take a chance on this kid. Simply put, the Vikings cannot.

Believe me or don't believe me, but Splieman needs to be fired before he destroys this team. I was right about Childress all those years, and I'm right about Spielman too.

Trust me.

PackSux!
04-06-2012, 05:31 PM
None of those teams were 3-13 last year and can afford to take a chance on this kid. Simply put, the Vikings cannot.

Believe me or don't believe me, but Splieman needs to be fired before he destroys this team. I was right about Childress all those years, and I'm right about Spielman too.

Trust me.

I don't think anyone here disagrees with you about Spielman.

singersp
04-06-2012, 10:16 PM
Whats up man? Where did I say Carr is a good tackler? I said this defense needs better tackling!
I also said Cook, Carr and Winfield COULD be a good trio. Don't try to twist my words.

Not trying to twist any of your words. When I read your statement that "this defense needs better tackling" & then in your next sentence you state that "Cook, Carr & Winfield could be a really good trio", it can be easily interpreted that you feel Carr helps provide that better tackling.

singersp
04-06-2012, 10:24 PM
Spielman likes a guy that scored a 4 on the wonderlic... he must feel akin to morons.

Fire Spielman.

Disclaimer: I'm an idiot.


What's your Disclaimer again? :)

Brewtal
04-06-2012, 10:42 PM
Kalil will be our pick at number 3, and to tell you the truth I will be very happy to see him drafted by the Vikings. I beleive he is the top pick in the draft.

Secondly people keep bashing on Spielman, yet I think he has made good decisions so far. Why on earth would you go and overpay for free agents when the Vikings are in a rebuilding mode? The Carlson pick up was good in my opinion (as long as he is healthy). We have 2 TE that would be high on the WR boards as well. Really do not see why this was a bad pick up.

Carr has huge potential, although I am not a fan of his antics Cook he also has very good high end potential.

I do not see why people are so down on the Vikings right now. Yes they are rebuilding, but I do not see where they have made such bad decisions this offseason. Looking foward to the draft myself.

12purplepride28
04-07-2012, 12:29 AM
None of those teams were 3-13 last year and can afford to take a chance on this kid. Simply put, the Vikings cannot.

Believe me or don't believe me, but Splieman needs to be fired before he destroys this team. I was right about Childress all those years, and I'm right about Spielman too.

Trust me.

I would think that the reason we were 3-13 last year would give us a greater reason to take chances on players. First of all, how heavily do you think we will invest in this guy if we got him? We would not give him an enormous contract so I don't know why you are acting like it will set our team back anymore than it is already. If he shows flashes in camp then limit him in the game and slowly give him more playing time. If he's garbage, keep him on the bench, PS, or cut him. Taking a chance on this kid is not going to hurt us, and taking a chance on players like this, ones that won't hurt us to sign but could pay off hugely, is a great way to get out of our mess. Just takes a couple hits on players and we are back to being a contender.

Brewtal
04-07-2012, 03:52 AM
C Mac D

You really do not have a clue what your talking about. sorry, keep crying all you want. Spielman has done a good job with this offseason. You want over paid free agents than pay for them yourself. Ponder has huge potential, pull your head out baby.

Caine
04-07-2012, 07:42 AM
C Mac D

You really do not have a clue what your talking about. sorry, keep crying all you want. Spielman has done a good job with this offseason. You want over paid free agents than pay for them yourself. Ponder has huge potential, pull your head out baby.

Well, C Mac is a big boy and can fight his own battles.....but I happen to completely agree with him.

Please show us how Spielman has done a "Good job" with this offseason? What players has he brought in who will truly stabilize the franchise? How has he addressed positional concerns that indicate success is pending?

Further, please elaborate as to how Ponder has "huge potential". Once you're done with that, please clarify how potential equates with success (Remember Tarvaris Jackson? He had "huge potential" too.).

Then, given the laundry list of positional needs the Vikings have, tell us which Free Agents we were right NOT to overpay for. Based upon the current signings that would be ALL OF THEM...but I'm certain that with your razor keen insight, you will be able to clue us in to which FA we should be seeking "value" in and bringing into our franchise.

And when you're all done with THAT, you may want to reconsider making derogatory remarks like pulling one's "head out", or calling someone a "baby"...especially when your own position is so woefully unsupported. People may believe, based solely upon your post, that YOU are the one suffering from cranial-rectal intrusion.

I look forward to your clarifications.

Caine

Stonecoldet3
04-07-2012, 10:18 AM
Spielman likes a guy that scored a 4 on the wonderlic... he must feel akin to morons.
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Very naive statement. Having a well documented learning disability doesn't make one stupid, a moron, or an idiot. Claiborne seemed to have excelled and thrived in a complicated college defense.

On a side note...the negativity on this board is becoming rampant and quite honestly a bit silly. I understand being passionate about your team...but come on....

I have liked the signings this year and feel our team has improved, slightly albeit, over last years team. I for one will wait to see how the draft plays out and how that translates to our team next year to pass judgement on this off season.

singersp
04-07-2012, 10:19 AM
... people keep bashing on Spielman, yet I think he has made good decisions so far. Why on earth would you go and overpay for free agents when the Vikings are in a rebuilding mode? The Carlson pick up was good in my opinion (as long as he is healthy). We have 2 TE that would be high on the WR boards as well. Really do not see why this was a bad pick up.

Carr has huge potential, although I am not a fan of his antics Cook he also has very good high end potential.

First, no one here has advocated we go out & overpay for top-notch FA. We do however, advocate bringing in FA's that are equal to or better than the guys Spielman is letting go.

That is how you improve your team. Improving your team is the goal.

To take players that have been solid players for us & replace them with mud & straw, blue-light special FA's other teams didn't want isn't a good way to build a foundation for a new team. They won't support it. It makes us worse of a team than what we were.

To take a person who has never played pro or college football in his entire life & then sign him to not a 1 year contract, but a 3 year contract to play football for the Vikings, based solely on the fact that (1) he played 1 season of arena football on a MINOR league team & (2) he's fast, is the biggest head-scratcher of the entire offseason.

As far as Carr, where do you see the potential? What has he done in the past 7 years that leads you to believe he even has potential? Was it his 1 year where he had as many tackles as a slowed up Cedric Griffin who was trying to play again after two devastating injuries?

What do you & Rick see that the coaches in Oakland, Tennessee & Baltimore failed to see?

What I fail to see is Spielman bringing in better talent than the talent he is pushing out the door. What I see is Spielman bringing in back-up caliber players & then putting them in starting roles hoping for miracle breakout performances.

Becareful Rick, most times you get what you pay for & minimum wage isn't much.

Stonecoldet3
04-07-2012, 10:25 AM
To take a person who has never played pro or college football in his entire life & then sign him to not a 1 year contract, but a 3 year contract to play football for the Vikings, based solely on the fact that (1) he played 1 season of arena football on a MINOR league team & (2) he's fast, is the biggest head-scratcher of the entire offseason.


Never know when you can find a diamond in the rough.


Signed Antonio Gates and Jimmy Graham.

singersp
04-07-2012, 10:39 AM
Never know when you can find a diamond in the rough.


Signed Antonio Gates and Jimmy Graham.

Graham played football in college & was drafted in the 3rd round.

Gates was an UDFA who went on to become a star. He was however, contacted by 19 teams to tryout for their team.

How many teams contacted Nick Taylor besides the Vikings?

So given that you can only come up with one "diamond in the ruff" player that has ever played in the NFL, what are the odds that Taylor is going to be one of those players?

With all the talent scouts & great coaches in the NFL, what are the odds that Spielman was the only one to find & consider this guy?

Stonecoldet3
04-07-2012, 10:45 AM
Graham played football in college & was drafted in the 3rd round.

Gates was an UDFA who went on to become a star. He was however, contacted by 19 teams to tryout for their team.

How many teams contacted Nick Taylor besides the Vikings?

So given that you can only come up with one "diamond in the ruff" player that has ever played in the NFL, what are the odds that Taylor is going to be one of those players?

With all the talent scouts & great coaches in the NFL, what are the odds that Spielman was the only one to find & consider this guy?

Jimmy Graham played 1 year of college football and to my knowledge didn't play High School ball at all (I could be wrong)...My point is athletes who played limited or no football can still be outstanding players.

As to whether he is a diamond in the rough, who knows! But it doesn't hurt. I for one will reserve judgement til if or when we see what the kid can do. /shrug

C Mac D
04-07-2012, 11:07 AM
Gates was an UDFA who went on to become a star. He was however, contacted by 19 teams to tryout for their team.

So many posts I want to respond to in this thread, but in the meantime I want to take this opportunity to say that I went to college with Antonio Gates. And Josh Cribbs.

Word.

Stonecoldet3
04-07-2012, 11:26 AM
So many posts I want to respond to in this thread, but in the meantime I want to take this opportunity to say that I went to college with Antonio Gates. And Josh Cribbs.

Word.

Very Nice. I went to High School with Ladainian Tomlinson..University High School in Waco, Texas. In fact we played baseball together, he was first base and I played second.

singersp
04-07-2012, 12:03 PM
I have liked the signings this year and feel our team has improved, slightly albeit, over last years team. I for one will wait to see how the draft plays out and how that translates to our team next year to pass judgement on this off season.

By "our team" are you referring to the Vikings or the Chicago Bears as your avatar suggests?

singersp
04-07-2012, 12:09 PM
Jimmy Graham played 1 year of college football and to my knowledge didn't play High School ball at all (I could be wrong)...My point is athletes who played limited or no football can still be outstanding players.

As to whether he is a diamond in the rough, who knows! But it doesn't hurt. I for one will reserve judgement til if or when we see what the kid can do. /shrug

I understand & know that athletes who played limited or no college football can become diamond in the ruffs, I just don't believe Spielman is capable of finding that "one player in a million" before anyone else.

But even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I just see him as a type of GM who will sign on dozens upon dozens of mediocre players at a cost of being a competitive team, just to find that one player.

Stonecoldet3
04-07-2012, 05:00 PM
By "our team" are you referring to the Vikings or the Chicago Bears as your avatar suggests?

I am a Vikings fan, a Cubs fan, and a Sacramento Kings Fan...I know its a triple whammy /shrug

kevoncox
04-07-2012, 07:55 PM
I don't understand fans that hang their hats on the 1 or 2 individuals that break the rule. Thousands of plays in the NFL have dedicated 3-4 years of college at a position and get drafted or signed because of it. Few of them become elite players at this level. Tens of players have not played college ball and got a contract from the NFL. A handful have become elite. Why are we so focus on bucking the trend? The fact remains we are a worst team today than we were last year. Too many people have bought into this build thru the draft motto. That is what we have been trying to do. However, it starts with key Free Agent signings. I'm not saying Elite, but key. You cant dumpster dive and think it will work. Our team was successful because we signed key free agents and drafted well the years earlier.

Kevin Williams was paired with Key FA signings Pat WIlliams
Ben Leber was paired with Greenway and EJ
Griffen was paired with FA Winfield

Peterson was paired with RIchardson
Berrian (we he was deccent) was paired with Rice and Harvin

What held this team back was QB play. We struggled thru an 8-8 season when we should have been 10-6 and then we went 10 - 6 in a year we should have won 12 games. In both situations QB play killed us. When we brought in Favre, our players we on the downside of their careers and the window was closing. We have a great 2009 year and then Favre lost that magic in 2010.

I say all this to say...the amount of talent in every draft is limited. Only about 100 players from each draft belong in the NFL and fewer than that stick. You cannot build solely thru the draft. You have to add key talent in FA. The trick is not over paying for it. Good teams are able to sign the right players to longer contracts cheaply. Next year we will have about 40 FAs and the players that played well on their 1 year deals will be chased by other teams. So even if 5 of them work out. We will lose them. We would have taken to risk and gained nothing from it.

marshallvike
04-07-2012, 10:18 PM
I don't understand fans that hang their hats on the 1 or 2 individuals that break the rule. Thousands of plays in the NFL have dedicated 3-4 years of college at a position and get drafted or signed because of it. Few of them become elite players at this level. Tens of players have not played college ball and got a contract from the NFL. A handful have become elite. Why are we so focus on bucking the trend? The fact remains we are a worst team today than we were last year. Too many people have bought into this build thru the draft motto. That is what we have been trying to do. However, it starts with key Free Agent signings. I'm not saying Elite, but key. You cant dumpster dive and think it will work. Our team was successful because we signed key free agents and drafted well the years earlier.

Kevin Williams was paired with Key FA signings Pat WIlliams
Ben Leber was paired with Greenway and EJ
Griffen was paired with FA Winfield

Peterson was paired with RIchardson
Berrian (we he was deccent) was paired with Rice and Harvin

What held this team back was QB play. We struggled thru an 8-8 season when we should have been 10-6 and then we went 10 - 6 in a year we should have won 12 games. In both situations QB play killed us. When we brought in Favre, our players we on the downside of their careers and the window was closing. We have a great 2009 year and then Favre lost that magic in 2010.

I say all this to say...the amount of talent in every draft is limited. Only about 100 players from each draft belong in the NFL and fewer than that stick. You cannot build solely thru the draft. You have to add key talent in FA. The trick is not over paying for it. Good teams are able to sign the right players to longer contracts cheaply. Next year we will have about 40 FAs and the players that played well on their 1 year deals will be chased by other teams. So even if 5 of them work out. We will lose them. We would have taken to risk and gained nothing from it.

Mr. kevoncox, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

jargomcfargo
04-07-2012, 11:13 PM
Mr. kevoncox, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Who made you God?
Sober up and try presenting some rational thought or discourse, counter to what he said, rather than your usual lack of tolerance for others divergent opinions.
You are an intolerant ass driving people away from this sight.
Maybe you should learn how to use the delete button; people have a right to have an opinion without your crap.

Caine
04-07-2012, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by marshallvike
Mr. kevoncox, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Who made you God?
Sober up and try presenting some rational thought or discourse, counter to what he said, rather than your usual lack of tolerance for others divergent opinions.
You are an intolerant ass driving people away from this sight.
Maybe you should learn how to use the delete button; people have a right to have an opinion without your crap.

Gotta say that I agree with the spirit of Smegma's response here.

Marshall, your "response" is old. Very old. I recall seeing it in it's original form - in the movie, "Billy Madison" back in 1995 - and laughing at the time...too bad it isn't funny now. Mostly because it isn't accurate.

What Kevon said was both coherent and rational. Further, he illustrated his points with examples which supported them nicely. In short, he presented a valid point of view with validation attached.

You, however, failed to recognize what was presented, and ripped off a movie line in a failed attempt to be clever. If you disagree with the points, why not argue them on their merits? I would hazard a guess and say that, based upon the complete lack of imagination and/or creativity it took to cut and paste that quote as your response, you found yourself incapable of following the rather simple path that kevon had illustrated, and couldn't fashion a proper counter argument, so instead you favored all of us with a blast from the past, and tried to pass it off as you being clever.

Next time, don't be clever. Stick to the points of the conversation. And, if you can't do that, then give your fingers a rest. While I'm sure you'd been lurking in thread after thread hoping to drop that little "gem" on us for quite some time, this was not the time.

Caine

12purplepride28
04-08-2012, 02:08 AM
I am a Vikings fan, a Cubs fan, and a Sacramento Kings Fan...I know its a triple whammy /shrug

Nice to know there's another Kings fan around here. I'm Kings, Vikings, and Twins. Rough life :/

marshallvike
04-08-2012, 08:38 PM
Gotta say that I agree with the spirit of Smegma's response here.

Marshall, your "response" is old. Very old. I recall seeing it in it's original form - in the movie, "Billy Madison" back in 1995 - and laughing at the time...too bad it isn't funny now. Mostly because it isn't accurate.

What Kevon said was both coherent and rational. Further, he illustrated his points with examples which supported them nicely. In short, he presented a valid point of view with validation attached.

You, however, failed to recognize what was presented, and ripped off a movie line in a failed attempt to be clever. If you disagree with the points, why not argue them on their merits? I would hazard a guess and say that, based upon the complete lack of imagination and/or creativity it took to cut and paste that quote as your response, you found yourself incapable of following the rather simple path that kevon had illustrated, and couldn't fashion a proper counter argument, so instead you favored all of us with a blast from the past, and tried to pass it off as you being clever.

Next time, don't be clever. Stick to the points of the conversation. And, if you can't do that, then give your fingers a rest. While I'm sure you'd been lurking in thread after thread hoping to drop that little "gem" on us for quite some time, this was not the time.

Caine

Holy shit. A guy can't even have some fun with an old movie quote any more. I really don't have a problem with what kevon said, although I did think he bounced around a bit. I just finished watching Billy Madison last night and loved that line, as I had forgotten about it. Does everything have to be totally serious. That was a funny quote then and it still is.

Kevon, if I pissed YOU off, sorry, just having some fun. It was not meant in a serious nature.

marshallvike
04-08-2012, 08:43 PM
Who made you God?
Sober up and try presenting some rational thought or discourse, counter to what he said, rather than your usual lack of tolerance for others divergent opinions.
You are an intolerant ass driving people away from this sight.
Maybe you should learn how to use the delete button; people have a right to have an opinion without your crap.

Guess next time I need to add the haha at the end of one of these so some can tell a joke line when it is posted.

Caine
04-08-2012, 08:54 PM
Holy shit. A guy can't even have some fun with an old movie quote any more. I really don't have a problem with what kevon said, although I did think he bounced around a bit. I just finished watching Billy Madison last night and loved that line, as I had forgotten about it. Does everything have to be totally serious. That was a funny quote then and it still is.

Kevon, if I pissed YOU off, sorry, just having some fun. It was not meant in a serious nature.

Caine, get over yourself.

Riiight...I'm the one with the problem....

Perhaps had you made it clear that you were joking around - smileys, the ever popular "j/k", or even a few "ha ha ha"'s at the end, you wouldn't have gotten the reaction you did.

But you didn't. So, your attempt at humor APPEARED to be an attack - and an unwarranted and unsupported one at that - and was treated as such. Look back through the 16 pages of this thread and you'll see that there are some charged posts here.

So, next time you want to be funny, be a wee bit more obvious about it.

As for getting over myself, I don't really see the need - I wasn't the one who was unclear. I was the one who had the back of a poster who had a solid post ganked on...even if it was in jest.

Caine

marshallvike
04-08-2012, 09:12 PM
Riiight...I'm the one with the problem....

Perhaps had you made it clear that you were joking around - smileys, the ever popular "j/k", or even a few "ha ha ha"'s at the end, you wouldn't have gotten the reaction you did.

But you didn't. So, your attempt at humor APPEARED to be an attack - and an unwarranted and unsupported one at that - and was treated as such. Look back through the 16 pages of this thread and you'll see that there are some charged posts here.

So, next time you want to be funny, be a wee bit more obvious about it.

As for getting over myself, I don't really see the need - I wasn't the one who was unclear. I was the one who had the back of a poster who had a solid post ganked on...even if it was in jest.

Caine

seems obvious now that my attempt at humor didn't go over well. Sounded good in my head though.

jargomcfargo
04-08-2012, 09:42 PM
seems obvious now that my attempt at humor didn't go over well. Sounded good in my head though.
I actually like the vast majority of your posts.
Midge lays in the weeds and ambushes posters from time to time. But he presents an evidence based reason for his opinion. And I respect him for it.
You on the other hand, make a dozen or so good posts, then launch a personal attack that seems out of character.
In the past, that has proven to be a problem with maturity or alcohol with some posters.
But I don't care, nor buy excuses, including a lame attempt at humor.
If it was your first attack I might, but it isn't.
Next time you attack a poster on PP.O, I will be here waiting.
Hopefully you now know how it feels!

marshallvike
04-08-2012, 09:52 PM
Who made you God?
Sober up and try presenting some rational thought or discourse, counter to what he said, rather than your usual lack of tolerance for others divergent opinions.
You are an intolerant ass driving people away from this sight.
Maybe you should learn how to use the delete button; people have a right to have an opinion without your crap.

smegma, I just went through all my posts from this year. I found two where I ripped a post.( One of them was your post about having a change of pace quarterback to come in late in games like a reliever in baseball.) How does that translate to a usual lack of tolerance for others opinions?

I tried to PM this to you, but received a fatal error twice.

marshallvike
04-08-2012, 09:57 PM
I actually like the vast majority of your posts.
Midge lays in the weeds and ambushes posters from time to time. But he presents an evidence based reason for his opinion. And I respect him for it.
You on the other hand, make a dozen or so good posts, then launch a personal attack that seems out of character.
In the past, that has proven to be a problem with maturity or alcohol with some posters.
But I don't care, nor buy excuses, including a lame attempt at humor.
If it was your first attack I might, but it isn't.
Next time you attack a poster on PP.O, I will be here waiting.
Hopefully you now know how it feels!

And I with most of yours.
Maturity is not a problem with me. I am older than dirt.

jargomcfargo
04-08-2012, 10:48 PM
smegma, I just went through all my posts from this year. I found two where I ripped a post.( One of them was your post about having a change of pace quarterback to come in late in games like a reliever in baseball.) How does that translate to a usual lack of tolerance for others opinions?
Are you refering to this post of yours?



I tried to PM this to you, but received a fatal error twice.
Are you refering to this post?
"er before you put something like that out there for everyone out there to see.

you may want to get aquainted with the delete button on your computer before you put something like that out there for everyone out there to see. "

Seems a bit personal. No mention of a change of pace, quarterback, or football at all.
BTW, Webb performed as well or better than Ponder, so your assertions not only didn't warrant a personal attack, they were wrong.
Once , twice , I don't care, next personal attack, I will be there waiting.
Also, I don't always agree with my friend Kevon, but I respect his imput on PP.O., as should you.

Webby
04-09-2012, 12:38 AM
Wow, missed the fireworks. So much for going out of town again! LOL

singersp
04-09-2012, 05:57 AM
Did we have a Katy Perry momment?

Caine
04-09-2012, 08:26 AM
Wow, missed the fireworks. So much for going out of town again! LOL

Nah...false alarm. Turned out to be a couple of snap-pops and a few sparklers.....

Fortunately, while you were gone, Smegma was on patrol.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx4jn77VKlQ&feature=related

Caine

NodakPaul
04-09-2012, 08:35 AM
LOL. I recognized that as a Billy Madison quote immediately. Slightly out of proportioned response to a little issue. :)

This is one of the first signs that the offseason is too long. :D

jmcdon00
04-09-2012, 11:13 AM
Mr. kevoncox, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
:rofl:

mountainviking
04-09-2012, 11:16 AM
With the signing of Carr and Bowman, I'm pretty sure we're not leaning toward Claiborne anymore. Add Cook and Winny returning and AA's development, and that spot is getting pretty full. Not that we can't or won't draft a guy there, just that its not as big a need as it once looked...ie more likely we fill bigger needs with those first two picks.

MAN! They must be doing some serious work on this draft! Spielman sounds serious about wanting to trade back, and I say why Not!? We've got a lot of needs and its a deep draft at most of them. But, it opens up the ole Can O Worms as far as possibilities go!

MIA, KC, SEA? ARI? PHI? looking to land Tanehill?
TB wanting to grab Richardson before the Browns do at 4?
STL wanting to go get Blackmon? We could take the Skin's 2nd and they'd still have all those extra firsts!

So, we gotta have a plan A, we stay, most likely Kalil. Plan B, at 6, assuming Trent Richardson occupies one of those top five slots, we're still looking at one of our top three options anyway. But, who's there at 8? Or 11 or 13 or 15!?!???

And then, depending on who/where we land, the 2nd round plan changes...move back up to snag a true difference maker? Stay put and plug as many holes as possible? Very interesting!


On another note, I've recently seen a few mocks with Stephen Hill falling to our 2nd and Kalil filling our huge hole at LT...IF that happens I'll actually be excited as hell for our season despite our likely record! And, I've been looking at more of the late 1st/early 2nd type WRs and found some other potential gems for that 35th pick. Check out Rueben Randle. Good size and speed, not tons of reps, but a good blocker, solid team guy with a work ethic, and a great average per catch:

Rueben Randle Highlights 2011 [HD] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qTJkl-4s2k)

Rueben Randle, LSU, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1664154)


With SEC defenses sucked in close to the line of scrimmage to defend an LSU rushing attack that averaged 202.5 yards a game on the ground, Randle took his game to another level in 2011. He earned All-SEC accolades in catching 50 passes for 908 yards and eight touchdowns, averaging a gaudy 18.1 yards per reception. He showed improved concentration as a route-runner and receiver and developed into a more reliable blocker, as well.

kevoncox
04-09-2012, 02:50 PM
I promise you that Hill is not making it past 22. The kid ran a 4.39, is 6'4, leaps out the building and recorded a 25 yard per catch average in college. Floyd will be gone higher up and a run on WRs will happen in this draft. We luck out because there are so many good WRs in this draft. I hope we take two of them.

kevoncox
04-09-2012, 02:54 PM
:rofl:

To be honest that's one of my favorite quotes in movie history. I didn't know if you were kidding but I laughed still.

MorrisCaliborne
04-10-2012, 03:11 AM
With the signing of Carr and Bowman, I'm pretty sure we're not leaning toward Claiborne anymore. Add Cook and Winny returning and AA's development, and that spot is getting pretty full. Not that we can't or won't draft a guy there, just that its not as big a need as it once looked...ie more likely we fill bigger needs with those first two picks.

MAN! They must be doing some serious work on this draft! Spielman sounds serious about wanting to trade back, and I say why Not!? We've got a lot of needs and its a deep draft at most of them. But, it opens up the ole Can O Worms as far as possibilities go!

MIA, KC, SEA? ARI? PHI? looking to land Tanehill?
TB wanting to grab Richardson before the Browns do at 4?
STL wanting to go get Blackmon? We could take the Skin's 2nd and they'd still have all those extra firsts!

So, we gotta have a plan A, we stay, most likely Kalil. Plan B, at 6, assuming Trent Richardson occupies one of those top five slots, we're still looking at one of our top three options anyway. But, who's there at 8? Or 11 or 13 or 15!?!???

And then, depending on who/where we land, the 2nd round plan changes...move back up to snag a true difference maker? Stay put and plug as many holes as possible? Very interesting!


On another note, I've recently seen a few mocks with Stephen Hill falling to our 2nd and Kalil filling our huge hole at LT...IF that happens I'll actually be excited as hell for our season despite our likely record! And, I've been looking at more of the late 1st/early 2nd type WRs and found some other potential gems for that 35th pick. Check out Rueben Randle. Good size and speed, not tons of reps, but a good blocker, solid team guy with a work ethic, and a great average per catch:

Rueben Randle Highlights 2011 [HD] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qTJkl-4s2k)

Rueben Randle, LSU, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1664154)

I disagree on this

Ranger
04-10-2012, 05:00 AM
Did we have a Katy Perry momment?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whv19-XdAZE

KevinK
04-10-2012, 11:05 AM
I disagree on this

I think u may have to change your screen name after we draft a LT.....lol

MorrisCaliborne
04-10-2012, 02:57 PM
I think u may have to change your screen name after we draft a LT.....lol

I would if they would let me but I think the Vikings are passing on Kalil and draft Caliborne

ultravikingfan
04-10-2012, 03:04 PM
Screw Claiborne...joke

singersp
04-20-2012, 07:29 AM
Spielman: We will draft Claiborne, Kalil, or Blackmon

NFL.com news: Vikings narrow options for No. 3 overall draft pick (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8287238d/article/vikings-spielman-we-will-draft-claiborne-kalil-or-blackmon)

bleedpurple
04-20-2012, 01:03 PM
I promise you that Hill is not making it past 22. The kid ran a 4.39, is 6'4, leaps out the building and recorded a 25 yard per catch average in college. Floyd will be gone higher up and a run on WRs will happen in this draft. We luck out because there are so many good WRs in this draft. I hope we take two of them.

doubtful... he's really raw but has tons of upside... bc the draft is SOOO deep at receiver, I think you may see some of these guys passed in lieu of equal talent but that may not be as deep at that specific position...

singersp
04-24-2012, 06:27 AM
The Matt Kalil-Morris Claiborne debate

The Matt Kalil-Morris Claiborne debate - NFC North Blog - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post?id=40964)