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View Full Version : 24 mil under the cap, and nothing...



nogathomasmillarddoleman
03-13-2012, 07:40 PM
...no move on Nicks to help AP (even though we're losing Herrera and Hutch), no wide out help to stretch the field (Garcon, Jackson, even Josh Morgan...gone). How 'bout Mario Williams...nothing. No word on whether they care about getting Carr either....sleeping...sad...how 'bout Lofton?? Probably not.
We're in for even more lean days...what a fiasco.

MaxVike
03-13-2012, 07:44 PM
Hmmm, I won't pass judgement on your post only because your name is cool.

kevoncox
03-13-2012, 08:10 PM
...no move on Nicks to help AP (even though we're losing Herrera and Hutch), no wide out help to stretch the field (Garcon, Jackson, even Josh Morgan...gone). How 'bout Mario Williams...nothing. No word on whether they care about getting Carr either....sleeping...sad...how 'bout Lofton?? Probably not.
We're in for even more lean days...what a fiasco.

They don't want Carr. That has been confirmed by insider comments.
They are clearly waiting to sign Jesus and Moses when they come back. Can you imagine what his signing bonus will do to our cap?

C Mac D
03-13-2012, 08:14 PM
Pretty sure that's enough to sign Favre, guys.

VikesFan787
03-13-2012, 08:16 PM
This is unbelievable. What in the name of God are the Vikings doing? Can anyone enlighten me?

Purple Floyd
03-13-2012, 08:19 PM
Nothing. It really is that simple.

VikesFan787
03-13-2012, 08:23 PM
Nothing. It really is that simple.
This is sad... I mean really sad.

C Mac D
03-13-2012, 08:24 PM
I don't mind the fact that we're not signing big name FAs. We've done that the past 6 years and still no Super Bowl.

Notice how the Packers didn't make any moves either? They've done pretty well building through the draft...

kevoncox
03-13-2012, 08:26 PM
I don't mind the fact that we're not signing big name FAs. We've done that the past 6 years and still no Super Bowl.

Notice how the Packers didn't make any moves either? They've done pretty well building through the draft...

Who in our front office can recognize talent?
We have not actively signed Free Agents for 6 years.

C Mac D
03-13-2012, 08:30 PM
Who in our front office can recognize talent?
We have not actively signed Free Agents for 6 years.

We haven't actively signed FA in 6 years? Jared Allen? Steve Huchinson? Ben Leber? Bernard Berrian? Brett Favre?

Sure, Berrian didn't pan out, but hindsight is 20/20. Bottom line - this ownership has definitely been active in the FA market over the past 6 years.

VikesFan787
03-13-2012, 08:31 PM
I don't mind the fact that we're not signing big name FAs. We've done that the past 6 years and still no Super Bowl.

Notice how the Packers didn't make any moves either? They've done pretty well building through the draft...

That's because everyone on their team is better than the FA at that position.

They were also contenders last year. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

C Mac D
03-13-2012, 08:33 PM
But I agree Kevincox... no one in our FO can recognize talent.

C Mac D
03-13-2012, 08:33 PM
That's because everyone on their team is better than the FA at that position.

They were also contenders last year. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

When they went 6-10 in 2008, what FA did they sign the following year?

12purplepride28
03-13-2012, 08:35 PM
We haven't actively signed FA in 6 years? Jared Allen? Steve Huchinson? Ben Leber? Bernard Berrian? Brett Favre?

Well, Jared Allen was a trade, Leber was always just solid, Berrian was trash, Favre was great for one year and then nothing happened (and I wouldn't credit our FO's signing of Favre as "good eye for talent"). Hutch was great for us.

Turboe
03-13-2012, 08:37 PM
We haven't actively signed FA in 6 years? Jared Allen? Steve Huchinson? Ben Leber? Bernard Berrian? Brett Favre?

Sure, Berrian didn't pan out, but hindsight is 20/20. Bottom line - this ownership has definitely been active in the FA market over the past 6 years.
Jared Allen was a trade with KC not a FA, and also I don't really consider Favre in that mix either as he was not on anyones roster and came out of retirement just to play solely with us, so not a traditional FA season acquisition. But point taken the others you mentioned were FA pickups and I can think of a few more Smoot (so-so), Shianco, and even Winfield and Fat Pat if you go back a few more years that I was happy with.

C Mac D
03-13-2012, 08:37 PM
Well, Jared Allen was a trade, Leber was always just solid, Berrian was trash, Favre was great for one year and then nothing happened (and I wouldn't credit our FO's signing of Favre as "good eye for talent"). Hutch was great for us.

Man... totally forgot Allen was a trade, guess I just mentally lump trades and FA signings together.

Still, our ownership is willing to go out and spend in FA. The lack of spending is definitely Spielman's call. We'll see if knows what he's doing.

Unfortunately, nothing in his career gives me faith that he does.

kevoncox
03-13-2012, 08:37 PM
We haven't actively signed FA in 6 years? Jared Allen? Steve Huchinson? Ben Leber? Bernard Berrian? Brett Favre?

Sure, Berrian didn't pan out, but hindsight is 20/20. Bottom line - this ownership has definitely been active in the FA market over the past 6 years.

Steve Hutchinson was 6 years ago.
BB was 4 years ago
Allen 4 years ago
Farve was 3 years ago

We have had 2 or 3 years active in the FA market in 7 years.

C Mac D
03-13-2012, 08:44 PM
Steve Hutchinson was 6 years ago.
BB was 4 years ago
Allen 4 years ago
Farve was 3 years ago

We have had 2 or 3 years active in the FA market in 7 years.

Oh, so now we're going back 7 years?

Just settle down, we've been active 4/6 years in Free Agency... and still no Super Bowl. Might not be a bad time to try to build through the draft.

VikesFan787
03-13-2012, 09:13 PM
When they went 6-10 in 2008, what FA did they sign the following year?

Doesn't matter. They obviously knew what they were doing with the players they had. We don't, we need help.

SharperImage
03-13-2012, 09:49 PM
Dont worry guys, Spielman gots this! He'll just sign some C-D level talent, and our amazing coaches will unlock their upside and make them blazing starters!! We will each the leftover free-agents in 1 week, and make them starters!!

VikesfaninWis
03-13-2012, 09:51 PM
What was the use cutting players to get 23 million under the cap if all you are going to do was sit on your hands? Looks like another year of 2-3 wins (if they are lucky). No free agent wants to play for this team, they are a joke. We have a horrible GM, we have a useless HC, and the sad part is, we have owners who are willing to spend, but they hire people that are to dumb to be in their positions. Spielman ruined the Dolphins, and if I remember correctly, he messed the Bears up as well. Who honestly believes he won't do the same with the Vikings? So sick of being a fan of a team that just doesn't get it.

VikesfaninWis
03-13-2012, 09:53 PM
Also, I can easily see both Allen and Harvin leaving after this season. They both want to win, and they won't do it here. That is talent that is being completely wasted on a useless team.

kevoncox
03-13-2012, 09:58 PM
Oh, so now we're going back 7 years?

Just settle down, we've been active 4/6 years in Free Agency... and still no Super Bowl. Might not be a bad time to try to build through the draft.

How did you get 4 out of 6 years. We have 2 years listed. Unless you want to count signings like Madieu williams ( who i believe came same year as allen) We have had 2 years in 6 that we went out and did something. I went to 7 because phat pat was brought up. The issues is we stink, we cut Hutch to get more cap. We are lettign top talent go and will settle for D league WRs and you would think we signed someone.

VikesfaninWis
03-13-2012, 09:58 PM
So just to get this straight. The Vikings need some serious help in many different areas, are 23 million dollars under the cap, had a chance at a few players of desperate need, and yet we haven't heard one single word about them this entire day? All that tells the fans is that they don't care about winning so why should the fans care about this team, and whether they move out of Minnesota or not? This team is just a joke, don't know why I continue to support them after all these years.

Brewtal
03-13-2012, 10:21 PM
Really shouldn't expect much as far as big names. We really do not have as much cap space as one would think. If you blow all the cap space on one player and have all the holes to fill we have it is a disaster. I really do not think over spending on free agents goes well with rebuilding the team.

ThorSPL
03-13-2012, 10:23 PM
I'm pretty surprised we haven't even gone after 3rd tier talent... at CB, that's a massive upgrade.

vikinggreg
03-13-2012, 11:41 PM
Steve Hutchinson was 6 years ago.
BB was 4 years ago
Allen 4 years ago
Farve was 3 years ago

We have had 2 or 3 years active in the FA market in 7 years.

Well 2 years ago during the uncapped year the Vikings were tied to the final 4 rule and only could resign players for the same contract value as the free agents they lost, which were 2 guys, Chester Taylor and Artis Hicks...after that they could pick up guys that were cut from other rosters.

Last year there were cap issues and I would think they might be keeping that in mind for the future as the team does some rebuilding, but he if people want to see teams making big splashes every year well there are the Redskins.

MulletMullitia
03-14-2012, 12:38 AM
Adam Caplan @caplannfl

#Vikings are expected to have TE John Carlson in for a visit on Weds., source confirmed.

A fucking tight end! Way to address needs first. Great job Spielman. I was an idiot to call for your head so soon. It's not like all the talent got signed on the first day anyways.

SharperImage
03-14-2012, 12:41 AM
BREAKING NEWS: Vikings set up first visit of FA!!

Back up TE Jon Carlson is visiting tomorrow, and he will replace shiancoe, and back up Rudolph! Yay we are filling a glaring hole on our team... TE :)

kevoncox
03-14-2012, 12:44 AM
Adam Caplan @caplannfl

#Vikings are expected to have TE John Carlson in for a visit on Weds., source confirmed.

A fucking tight end! Way to address needs first. Great job Spielman. I was an idiot to call for your head so soon. It's not like all the talent got signed on the first day anyways.

They are going to move him to CB. Gosh this team is terrible. We are a power rushing team with no Oline. How does that even make sense? That would have to be a necessity right? I mean you have to be able to implore your will on defenses right? Someone get me madden, cause thats the only way we win a game this season. As of this moment, we are the worst team in the league. Rams got better, Colts have a WR and I'm sure thier QB will play more games next season.

MulletMullitia
03-14-2012, 12:49 AM
Oh and the icing on the cake...


Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora


Bucs still grinding away on a deal with top guard Carl Nicks. Sounds like they will burn the midnight oil to get it done #freeagency

YouthVikesFan
03-14-2012, 12:54 AM
Its boring as fans to rebuild through the draft as we watch other teams have fun expanding through free agency but i agree.. we need to build through the draft for about 3 years see how well we do then put the remaining pieces together via free agency.

My only concern is we have way too many holes to not sign or look at anyone besides a damn TE? If we are gonna build thrugh the draft for a while i say trade jared allen maybe even kevin williams. That will hurt my heart if it happens but it will help finacially wise plus it wont let their talents go to waste even though i would hate to face them once they come to town.

Its gonna be a long year fellas...

Brewtal
03-14-2012, 01:13 AM
Actually with Shanks who will be overpaid gone, and Kleinie gone TE is a need. This guy is acutally a decent TE.

skum
03-14-2012, 01:14 AM
Carlson is actually pretty good at tight end, but its really not where we need to spend.. However he didn't play at all in 2011 and the injury is a torn labrum, which is the same injury that bothered Sidney Rice.

A little bonus is that he is born in St Cloud.

Dissapointed to see no pitch to Carl Nicks, it would have been the perfect signing after letting go of Hutch and Herrera.

We have many holes we need to adress, OG is one, tight end is not.

BBQ Platypus
03-14-2012, 05:42 AM
Disappointing. You whiff on 100 percent of the moves you don't make. This team needs help however it can get it. You don't need to forsake free agency entirely. That's not how most successful teams do things.

Going even beyond this, this is just bad PR. To be this loudly quiet on a team with so many needs appears to demonstrate to the taxpayers of Minnesota that, while you as a team expect them to invest in a stadium, they as fans can't expect you to invest in a product that's actually worth watching. Maybe it's not your intention. Maybe Fearless Leader Spielman has a super-secret plan to "go young" and "build through the draft." But that's not what it looks like from the fans' perspective.

MaxVike
03-14-2012, 07:28 AM
Some counter perspective to the mutiny ... Mark Craig of the StarTribune is the Author: Easy, folks. Here are reasons not to panic just yet about free agency | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/142554205.html)

Signing overpaid FAs is not a short-term answer on a Team, ours, with needs at virtually every position. As we have discussed numerous times, the Vikes are in a hole. Like it or not (I'm not saying I like it), they are executing a long-term plan. I will be looking for progress on the field...and, largely agree with Craig, in that, if trophies were handed out in April, Washington would have more than they have room for. There will be no big name splash in Minnesota methinks. A TE here, an OL there, sprinkle in a DB or two, and the Vikes are nearing mediocrity................ No, I'm not happy, but, building through the draft is the best long-term strategy... Once a roster is more set, then you bring in a FA to plug the gaps. We shall see if they can pull it off.

This probably says it better than me... Dan Wiederer of the StarTribune is the Author: Quiet day for Vikings not exactly a surprise | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/142572845.html)

vikesrgreat2
03-14-2012, 09:16 AM
Adam Caplan @caplannfl

#Vikings are expected to have TE John Carlson in for a visit on Weds., source confirmed.

A fucking tight end! Way to address needs first. Great job Spielman. I was an idiot to call for your head so soon. It's not like all the talent got signed on the first day anyways.

Might they be looking for Shiancoe's replacement (if they are thinking about letting Shiancoe go)?

skum
03-14-2012, 09:25 AM
Shiancoe is gone, he is a free agent now..

I know we are in a rebuilding year but i just don't think it takes that hell of a lot to make teams competetive and a few free agency signings here and there could and a nice draft could have gotten us back into contention fast, instead are a going to suffer now for a few years it seems and that to me is very disapointing.

marshallvike
03-14-2012, 09:26 AM
Some counter perspective to the mutiny ... Mark Craig of the StarTribune is the Author: Easy, folks. Here are reasons not to panic just yet about free agency | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/142554205.html)

Signing overpaid FAs is not a short-term answer on a Team, ours, with needs at virtually every position. As we have discussed numerous times, the Vikes are in a hole. Like it or not (I'm not saying I like it), they are executing a long-term plan. I will be looking for progress on the field...and, largely agree with Craig, in that, if trophies were handed out in April, Washington would have more than they have room for. There will be no big name splash in Minnesota methinks. A TE here, an OL there, sprinkle in a DB or two, and the Vikes are nearing mediocrity................ No, I'm not happy, but, building through the draft is the best long-term strategy... Once a roster is more set, then you bring in a FA to plug the gaps. We shall see if they can pull it off.

This probably says it better than me... Dan Wiederer of the StarTribune is the Author: Quiet day for Vikings not exactly a surprise | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/142572845.html)

This is the path I hope they follow. Build thru the draft, then fill the remaining holes with FA. No sense being hamstrung by having no cap space again next year and the following year, etc, by buying contracts that will hurt us for years. building thru the draft will create cap space for us later.

VikesfaninWis
03-14-2012, 10:29 AM
It's not like the Vikings will be significantly better in 3 years with drafting players only. They have a history of screwing up the drafts (ie:Williamson, trading up for a no name QB named Tarvaris Jackson) but they also got some things right (AD, Harvin)..

The problem here is, if you don't add some good free agents with these rookies, by the time the rookies hone their skills, guys like AD, Harvin, and Allen will be on the tail ends of their careers, then they have to start completely over.

I feel bad for a guy like Matt Kalil (if the Vikings indeed draft him) for having to come to a team that is in complete shambles, having to protect a 2nd year QB with absolutely no help from the rest of the OL (releasing 2 starting guards in Hutch and Herrera)

What will that do for a RB like AD that is coming back from a horrible injury when he has no holes to run through? What will the offense be like when Ponder has no protection and nobody but Harvin to throw to?

Long story short, this team is going to suck horribly. I tell you one thing, this will be the first time in the 20+ years that I have been a fan of this team that I will not be wearing a single thing Vikings related here in Green Bay. I can take ridicule with the best of them, but I refuse to take it when the Vikings have the means to get better and all they do is sit on their asses and looked stupid. Can't do it. I can't wait for the day that Spielman and Frazier are fired. Neither one has a clue what they are doing in their respective positions.

C Mac D
03-14-2012, 11:23 AM
It's not like the Vikings will be significantly better in 3 years with drafting players only. They have a history of screwing up the drafts (ie:Williamson, trading up for a no name QB named Tarvaris Jackson) but they also got some things right (AD, Harvin)..

The problem here is, if you don't add some good free agents with these rookies, by the time the rookies hone their skills, guys like AD, Harvin, and Allen will be on the tail ends of their careers, then they have to start completely over.

I feel bad for a guy like Matt Kalil (if the Vikings indeed draft him) for having to come to a team that is in complete shambles, having to protect a 2nd year QB with absolutely no help from the rest of the OL (releasing 2 starting guards in Hutch and Herrera)

What will that do for a RB like AD that is coming back from a horrible injury when he has no holes to run through? What will the offense be like when Ponder has no protection and nobody but Harvin to throw to?

Long story short, this team is going to suck horribly. I tell you one thing, this will be the first time in the 20+ years that I have been a fan of this team that I will not be wearing a single thing Vikings related here in Green Bay. I can take ridicule with the best of them, but I refuse to take it when the Vikings have the means to get better and all they do is sit on their asses and looked stupid. Can't do it. I can't wait for the day that Spielman and Frazier are fired. Neither one has a clue what they are doing in their respective positions.

When talking about the Vikings draft history, Peterson and Harvin are the only two positives anyone can mention... and they FELL IN OUR LAPS. (no one seems to think Greenway is any good apparently)

The evidence that this front office cannot evaluate talent is overwhelming. Let's review some of the picks that haven't worked out so well...

Chris Cook
Tarvaris Jackson
Cedric Griffin
Greg Blue
Sindey Rice
Marcus McCauley
Aundrae Alison
Rufus Alexander
Tyler Thigpen
Tyrell Johnson
John David Booty
John Sullivan (sorry guys, he sucks)
Jaymar Johnson
Asher Allen
Phil Loadholdt (also sucks)
Chris DeGeare
Entire 2011 draft

FuadFan
03-14-2012, 11:59 AM
John Carlson officially a Viking
\
https://twitter.com/#/caplannfl/status/179973617185079296

A lot of money hope we have a good 2 TE plan for the season since now we have an offseason to implement it.

skum
03-14-2012, 12:03 PM
Griffin, Rice and Sullivan are all good picks, but the rest is 2nd and 3rd stringers or not even in the league..

Id say Thigpen was a pretty good pick also given that he was a 7th? round pick.

But we have not done a good job drafting while under Spielman, id agree.. He hasn't missed on many first rounders, but keep in mind that Peterson was a no-brainer and Harvin does have a lot of durability issues which did cost us games this season, because he was on the bench and not on field.

PS: You have Chris Cook twice.

What botheres me the most is that if Spielman and the rest of the orginazation is in rebuild mode, it will likely take us 2-3 years to get rid of him, because its a project that should make us competetive in 2-3 years and thats a lot of time.. I think that unless we draft really well, we could face have a tough task getting to 8-8 and don't start talking about playoffs any time soon.

The jury is still out on Ponder and we have not given him any targets, Carlson is not a better player than Shiancoe, so thats im my eyes a downgrade and i have trouble seing Joe Berger/Fusco and Charlie Johnson playing at the same level as Steve Hutchinson - even in this stage in his career.

We are a 3 win team, that is taking steps backwards and i don't like it.

YouthVikesFan
03-14-2012, 12:05 PM
Wow.. TE was a need but more than a reciever? I do like the idea of Carlson and Rudolf in a two TE set but that money could have been thrown at someone much more worthy and a bigger need for the team.

Brewtal
03-14-2012, 12:14 PM
Never seen such a bunch of complainers. There used to be good information found on this site, but that does not seem to be the case. It would be stupid to overpay for anyone in free agency and there is a reason the Vikings are not doing it. They are trying to re-build, what good does it do to overpay a player to throw into a team with as many holes as we have? None.

C Mac D
03-14-2012, 12:20 PM
The jury is still out on Ponder and we have not given him any targets, Carlson is not a better player than Shiancoe, so thats im my eyes a downgrade and i have trouble seing Joe Berger/Fusco and Charlie Johnson playing at the same level as Steve Hutchinson - even in this stage in his career.

I'm not sold on Ponder. He'll be a serviceable backup in the league for 10-12 years, but nothing more.

C Mac D
03-14-2012, 12:22 PM
Never seen such a bunch of complainers. There used to be good information found on this site, but that does not seem to be the case. It would be stupid to overpay for anyone in free agency and there is a reason the Vikings are not doing it. They are trying to re-build, what good does it do to overpay a player to throw into a team with as many holes as we have? None.

Glad you decided to add your intelligent "information" to the discussion.

If you had bothered to read the entire thread, you'd see that people have been making that point since page 1.

skum
03-14-2012, 12:30 PM
Never seen such a bunch of complainers. There used to be good information found on this site, but that does not seem to be the case. It would be stupid to overpay for anyone in free agency and there is a reason the Vikings are not doing it. They are trying to re-build, what good does it do to overpay a player to throw into a team with as many holes as we have? None.

Pretty much every player signed in free agency is overpaid, which makes them - paid at market rate, which is not overpaying.. If you want good players on your team, you are gonna have to pay up, And when we finally did, it was for 5m a year for a Tight End that didn't play at all last year, due to injuries..

Its just not fun to be a 3 win team, that is taking steps backwards and unless something really good happens in the coming days, we should be among the worst teams in the league in the coming season.

There are many questionmarks on this team, Rick Spielman is one, Leslie Frazier is another one, a new stadium is a third, Adrian Petersons rehab a fourth, Percy Harvin's durability a fifht and Jared Allen leaving because he doesn't want to play for a bad team could be a sixth.

We have had so many players leave now and we could end up needing many many new faces in here, so giving away 20% of our salary cap money to a Tight End in which he already have a starter in place, seems mindboggling and there is every reason to question this move.

purplehelmut
03-14-2012, 12:42 PM
We're so bad at this point no one thing is going to fix it and it won't happen overnight. I may have missed something, but who's out there as a FA we want? Mario comes to mind because you can always use a pass rusher but he'll cost a bunch. With Ponder at QB (and I don't think he's a franchise QB) and Peterson probably not going to be fully back for another year at least (if ever) it's going to be real rough the next couple of years. I took a "leave of absence" during the Les Stekel debacle by tuning out the Vikings for a couple years. I may consider another such vacation.

C Mac D
03-14-2012, 12:51 PM
Just read the contract details for John Carlson... $25M over 4 years with $11M guaranteed?

WHAT?!?!?! For a backup TE?

Oh boy... the Spielman era is going to be long and painful.

(Chris Cook will also be experiencing something long and painful soon)

NodakPaul
03-14-2012, 12:55 PM
I am not excited by FA so far, but I am not worried either. It would have been fun to make a big splash with a premier player, and I am not concerned about "overpaying" because the market determines price. But I also know that we can be a successful team without going crazy in the first 24 hours of FA.

I am OK with Carlson and Rudolph in the 2 TE set. I have every expectation that AD will be back. Harvin is a premier slot receiver. Getting Kalil would move Johnson to LG, so the question marks for me on offense are RG and WR. Both of these are fairly deep in FA, and while we wont get a premier player, that doesnt mean we will get a bad one.

Defense is much more concerning to me. We need a SS, FS, 2 CBs, and at least one LB. I am hoping we resign Erin, because he has better than average coverage skills as a LB, but that still leaves a huge hole in our secondary that I don't see as fillable without a premier player. And we don't seem to be even looking at the top CBs or Ss out there.

Part of me wonders if we are content to address offense only this year and defense next year. Fix one part at a time, with young players, so we have a better long term solution. It would cement us as being in a "rebuilding" year.

NodakPaul
03-14-2012, 12:57 PM
I would love to see us pursuing LaRon Landry. He is young and fills a need. Maybe there is still time. :)

NodakPaul
03-14-2012, 12:58 PM
(Chris Cook will also be experiencing something long and painful soon)

LMFAO.

I've missed you C Mac.

NodakPaul
03-14-2012, 01:01 PM
I'm not sold on Ponder. He'll be a serviceable backup in the league for 10-12 years, but nothing more.

I am not sold on Ponder yet either, but I am giving him the benefit of the doubt until he proves me wrong. I did the same with TJack, and obviously I was wrong there initially.

I see Ponder's potential, but he was all over the place last year. I realize that it was his rookie year behind a HORRIBLE OL, so I am anxious to see what he can do this year. We need to see improvement for me to stay on board with him though. (And I am sure that he lies awake at night concerned about what my opinion of him is too...)

skum
03-14-2012, 01:06 PM
I would love to see us pursuing LaRon Landry. He is young and fills a need. Maybe there is still time. :)

I don't think he fits in a cover 2 scheme, he is a hard-hitter and has bulked up so much that he has lost all his speed. Fear he might get burned over the top way to much.

NodakPaul
03-14-2012, 01:11 PM
I don't think he fits in a cover 2 scheme, he is a hard-hitter and has bulked up so much that he has lost all his speed. Fear he might get burned over the top way to much.

He doesn't. But I am also not convinced we are going with cover 2. We ran more nickel and dime last year than anything else. And if we were hardcore determined to continue with the cover 2, we should be making a bigger push with Erin H as a coverage LB.

jmcdon00
03-14-2012, 01:19 PM
I think TE makes sense in that the Vikings don't feel there will be anybody worth drafting at the position, I know I read one article that said it was a very weak group at TE.
All other positions they want to be able to take best player available. By picking up free agents you limit what you can do in the draft.

C Mac D
03-14-2012, 03:24 PM
Browns just released Eric Steinbach... we should sign him ASAP. He's a very good guard that missed last season due to injury. We can get him for cheap.

i_bleed_purple
03-14-2012, 03:25 PM
I think TE makes sense in that the Vikings don't feel there will be anybody worth drafting at the position, I know I read one article that said it was a very weak group at TE.
All other positions they want to be able to take best player available. By picking up free agents you limit what you can do in the draft.

I actually really like the te pickup, gives us a good underneath outlet for ponder. At least they replaced shank with someone who can actually play

Jarlvik
03-14-2012, 04:00 PM
At least one LB. It seems like no one is thinking about replacing EJ. Love the guy, but his production has dropped after the horrific femur incident.
What do you think about Vernon Carey at RG? I know he's listed as OT, but way back when he was drafted he was considered to be a better prospect at Guard. Of course, that's assuming that we don't come out of the weeds for Grubbs. I like Landry also.

i_bleed_purple
03-14-2012, 04:02 PM
Told you guys not to expect much. We'll get a few depth guys, I'm surprised we signed Carleson tbh. Laron Landry would be nice to build around on D as well, but dont' expect much. We have 10 draft picks this year.

midgensa
03-14-2012, 04:52 PM
Browns just released Eric Steinbach... we should sign him ASAP. He's a very good guard that missed last season due to injury. We can get him for cheap.


I would not mind to see us go after him at all. But the fact that we have shown no interest in Gaither, Grubbs or Winston makes me believe this front office might think that Matt Kalil will fix all of our problems.

PackSux!
03-14-2012, 05:25 PM
I love how most folks are freaking out because we didnt make any big signings. Did anyone ever stop and think that maybe that minnesota is not the top spot to go play? Its all about the money. Minnesota has a high income tax, so dont blame the front office. Instead blame the politicians!

If I was a player I would obviously go play in Florida rather than Minnesota(like VJack).

Granville1906
03-14-2012, 05:38 PM
Well, its almost impossible to know what Speilman would have done if he had sole authority during his tenure here. The triangle of authority was a diaster. I would actually love for the Vikings to bring back Denny Green as a consulant. Say what you want, but that brother could draft.

Basically, the cap will continue to grow each year, so player contracts will grow with it. It's actually wise to lock up young players for multiple years. What seems like alot now will be chump change in 2 years. Also, one of the Vikes biggest problems is our strength is AP. Yet, the league has progressed into a passing league. Our offense is akin to dial up, we everyone else has DSL.

Granville1906
03-14-2012, 05:41 PM
I was hoping we would get Orson Charles (TE) from GA. Now, that's over. I like the position, just feel like 11 milly is too much. I know that KC and Indy was after him too, which is what drove the price up, I guess?

BBQ Platypus
03-14-2012, 05:49 PM
I'm a bit uneasy about signing a guy who's had two major injuries in the past year and a half to a five-year deal. At least less than half of it is guaranteed.

Granville1906
03-14-2012, 05:53 PM
He got the injuries out of the away?

Mr Anderson
03-14-2012, 07:01 PM
I like the Carlson signing. Seems like a smart guy. He's big and can catch. If he can stay healthy he and Rudolph will pair well to give Ponder some release valves underneath.

1) A real vertical threat
2)Kalil
3)Move Johnson inside and
4)Add a free agent guard
There's no reason the offense shouldn't be solid with just a few moves, at least from a personnel perspective.

The defense on the other hand needs help at every level.

4) DT/NT
5) Safety(ies) - Sign or draft at least 3. Take one in the first 3 rounds, get one of the top guys available in free agency. I'm really sick of out safeties being the worst players on the field every Sunday.
6) Corner(s?) - Depending on Cook's situation.
7) Linebacker(s?) - Are we going to lose Erin Henderson? I've seen enough of EJ's inability to get deep enough to make up for our safeties' lack of ability to predict, react and get to the play. If we're going to run this stupid defense where you force a guy who's clearly built to move downhill to drop into a deep zone, we might as well have a guy who can do it. I

Ok, we need help everywhere. We need help, but we don't have anyone I hate on the roster. No McNabb, no Berrian. Childress is gone. McKinnie is gone. I like the personality of this team, we just need some more talent thrown in there.

nogathomasmillarddoleman
03-14-2012, 07:33 PM
Hmmm, I won't pass judgement on your post only because your name is cool.
Pass judgement all you want, Max.

nogathomasmillarddoleman
03-14-2012, 07:41 PM
When they went 6-10 in 2008, what FA did they sign the following year?

One down year to rebuild knowing they had something...a plan, if you will. No plan here, just a dumb over-paid, injury riduled TE to replace Shiancoe..brutal..

nogathomasmillarddoleman
03-14-2012, 07:47 PM
What was the use cutting players to get 23 million under the cap if all you are going to do was sit on your hands? Looks like another year of 2-3 wins (if they are lucky). No free agent wants to play for this team, they are a joke. We have a horrible GM, we have a useless HC, and the sad part is, we have owners who are willing to spend, but they hire people that are to dumb to be in their positions. Spielman ruined the Dolphins, and if I remember correctly, he messed the Bears up as well. Who honestly believes he won't do the same with the Vikings? So sick of being a fan of a team that just doesn't get it.

Beautiful!!!

C Mac D
03-14-2012, 07:49 PM
If I was a player I would obviously go play in Florida rather than Minnesota(like VJack).

Florida is the trailer park of the country. Weather might be nice I (when there's not a hurricane), but Florida sucks. I lived there for a couple years growing up. The only worst place in the country is Ohio.

If Florida is the trailer park of the country, Ohio is the outhouse.

nogathomasmillarddoleman
03-14-2012, 07:54 PM
Shiancoe is gone, he is a free agent now..

I know we are in a rebuilding year but i just don't think it takes that hell of a lot to make teams competetive and a few free agency signings here and there could and a nice draft could have gotten us back into contention fast, instead are a going to suffer now for a few years it seems and that to me is very disapointing.

Exactly. You always need an influx of veterans to build a team, whether you use the cliche of "building through the draft" bull or not. Teams that actually "build through the draft" aren't that bad to begin with. Vikings management have no clue.

nogathomasmillarddoleman
03-14-2012, 07:57 PM
When talking about the Vikings draft history, Peterson and Harvin are the only two positives anyone can mention... and they FELL IN OUR LAPS. (no one seems to think Greenway is any good apparently)

The evidence that this front office cannot evaluate talent is overwhelming. Let's review some of the picks that haven't worked out so well...

Chris Cook
Tarvaris Jackson
Cedric Griffin
Greg Blue
Sindey Rice
Marcus McCauley
Aundrae Alison
Rufus Alexander
Tyler Thigpen
Tyrell Johnson
John David Booty
John Sullivan (sorry guys, he sucks)
Jaymar Johnson
Asher Allen
Phil Loadholdt (also sucks)
Chris DeGeare
Entire 2011 draft

Awesome!!

i_bleed_purple
03-14-2012, 07:57 PM
One down year to rebuild knowing they had something...a plan, if you will. No plan here, just a dumb over-paid, injury riduled TE to replace Shiancoe..brutal..

We have a big ginger receiving TE from Notre Dame to replace Shank. We signed Carlson to replace Rudolph's position.

C Mac D
03-14-2012, 08:01 PM
Haha, they're talking about questionable FA signings on NFL Network and the very first one (the only one actually) was the John Carlson signing.

Everyone can see how dumb our front office is. It's embarassing.

Spielman WILL lead us to a 1-15 record during his tenure. Mark my words.

nogathomasmillarddoleman
03-14-2012, 08:06 PM
haha, they're talking about questionable fa signings on nfl network and the very first one (the only one actually) was the john carlson signing.

Everyone can see how dumb our front office is. It's embarassing.

Spielman will lead us to a 1-15 record during his tenure. Mark my words.

omg!!!

kevoncox
03-14-2012, 08:07 PM
Florida is the trailer park of the country. Weather might be nice I (when there's not a hurricane), but Florida sucks. I lived there for a couple years growing up. The only worst place in the country is Ohio.

If Florida is the trailer park of the country, Ohio is the outhouse.
The women are gorgeous

C Mac D
03-14-2012, 08:11 PM
The women are gorgeous
Hope you like VD.

nogathomasmillarddoleman
03-14-2012, 08:12 PM
We have a big ginger receiving TE from Notre Dame to replace Shank. We signed Carlson to replace Rudolph's position.

You're not serious, right??
5 yrs. 25 mil. ????
Just stupid, end of story!!!

C Mac D
03-14-2012, 08:25 PM
You're not serious, right??
5 yrs. 25 mil. ????
Just stupid, end of story!!!

It's absolutely a stupid contract. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand what they're talking about. He might 'fit' what we're looking need (we actually need a blocking TE, not a pass-catching TE), but that contract is so f*cking stupid it's mind boggling.

Mr Anderson
03-14-2012, 08:28 PM
You're not serious, right??
5 yrs. 25 mil. ????
Just stupid, end of story!!!
With $11 guaranteed. His base salary is probably only about $3 million this year. It's not that much of a cap hit. Mind you, we gave Bryan Robison 3 years $14.5 million and $6.5million guaranteed. This is effectively the same contract scaled up by 2 years. I really don't see a problem with the money we gave him.

The injuries no one can deny, but the contract is not a problem.

C Mac D
03-14-2012, 08:36 PM
With $11 guaranteed. His base salary is probably only about $3 million this year. It's not that much of a cap hit. Mind you, we gave Bryan Robison 3 years $14.5 million and $6.5million guaranteed. This is effectively the same contract scaled up by 2 years. I really don't see a problem with the money we gave him.

The injuries no one can deny, but the contract is not a problem.

Robison is a starter...

You're essentially saying you're okay that our backup TE is getting paid the same amount as our starting DE?

Ranger
03-14-2012, 08:45 PM
There are only a few things that would make it "okay", in my mind. He'd have to play a significant percentage of reps, and perform very well. He'd have to have improved his pass blocking. Essentially, we'd have to have a Gronk/Hernandez situation, which isn't going to happen. He's a good player, but we paid too much for what we were going to use him for. If we didn't have Rudy, it'd be a different story.

12purplepride28
03-14-2012, 08:49 PM
We'll be the Patriots 2.0! Rudolph/Carlson can be wayyyy better than Gronk/Hernandez easily. And Ponder is way more mobile than Brady so he's already better than him.

Mr Anderson
03-14-2012, 08:59 PM
Robison is a starter...

You're essentially saying you're okay that our backup TE is getting paid the same amount as our starting DE?
For one, it's March. We don't know who's going to start where. Two, when Robison got the contract, he didn't have starting experience - he was signed as a projection to fill the the spot Edwards left behind. And three, we run so many 2 TE sets Carlson will be getting starter-like playing time even if he's not #1 on the depth chart.

He might end up being cheaper than Shiancoe, who hasn't done shit besides 2008 and 2009. We paid Shiancoe $18 million over 5 years in 2007, and he was far less proven than Carlson. Who, to be fair, hasn't put up huge numbers with Seattle. Probably because he played for Seattle. But he's 6'5" and has great hands. If he can stay healthy I think he could easily outplay this contract. He was the #38 overall draft pick 4 years ago for a reason. If you put Gronkowski or Vernon Davis on those Seattle teams and they might not even succeed.

We also don't know what this contract entails. It could be heavily incentive based or optioned to account for his potential injury.

kevoncox
03-14-2012, 09:42 PM
For one, it's March. We don't know who's going to start where. Two, when Robison got the contract, he didn't have starting experience - he was signed as a projection to fill the the spot Edwards left behind. And three, we run so many 2 TE sets Carlson will be getting starter-like playing time even if he's not #1 on the depth chart.

He might end up being cheaper than Shiancoe, who hasn't done shit besides 2008 and 2009. We paid Shiancoe $18 million over 5 years in 2007, and he was far less proven than Carlson. Who, to be fair, hasn't put up huge numbers with Seattle. Probably because he played for Seattle. But he's 6'5" and has great hands. If he can stay healthy I think he could easily outplay this contract. He was the #38 overall draft pick 4 years ago for a reason. If you put Gronkowski or Vernon Davis on those Seattle teams and they might not even succeed.

We also don't know what this contract entails. It could be heavily incentive based or optioned to account for his potential injury.

Did you guys watch the games last year?
Are you delusional? Don't worry, I'll help draw a picture.
Rudolph -26 catches 249 yards
Shank -36 catches 409 yards

Our team is now down a star running back and our defense has been dismantled.
Even if Rudolph and Carson double those numbers. Its a bad signing. The guy had 627 YARDS when he was the only option for a team. We could have gotten a more athletic M. Bennett for a fraction of the cost. Either we wasted a 2nd round pick on a TE who is now a back up, or we wasted 25 million on a backup TE, :(
Rudolph - 818
Carlson - 500

i_bleed_purple
03-14-2012, 10:11 PM
Did you guys watch the games last year?
Are you delusional? Don't worry, I'll help draw a picture.
Rudolph -26 catches 249 yards
Shank -36 catches 409 yards
And yet Rudolph seems more talented than Shank. He was barely used early on, my bet it was adjusting to the game and learning the playbook. I fully expect Rudolph to have a big year, maybe not as big as Shanks 09 year, but possibly more yards.


Our team is now down a star running back and our defense has been dismantled.
Even if Rudolph and Carson double those numbers. Its a bad signing. The guy had 627 YARDS when he was the only option for a team. We could have gotten a more athletic M. Bennett for a fraction of the cost.
Bennett is a waste of roster space. He has underperformed since he was drafted

Either we wasted a 2nd round pick on a TE who is now a back up, or we wasted 25 million on a backup TE, :(
Rudolph - 818
Carlson - 500

Talk about not knowing the facts. We didn't waste 25 million. We at most wasted 11 million if he turns out to be a complete waste... over 5 years. so 2.25 mil per year. Wanna know Shiancoe's contract numbers? Base salary adds up to 5-year, 11.2 million. Add another 7 mil in signing bonuses then other incentives, the guaranteed money is the same for a younger, possibly more talented player.

Formo
03-14-2012, 10:20 PM
Robison is a starter...

You're essentially saying you're okay that our backup TE is getting paid the same amount as our starting DE?

He's not a back up. When looking at the stats of our TE sets from last year, the Vikings tight ends combined to play 1,684 snaps last season. That's 1.62 per offensive play. So, yes, they need more than one on the roster. Meaning, both him and Rudolph will be playing a ton.

I'm not jacked about the signing either, but like Mr. A said, the problem isn't the money/contract.

i_bleed_purple
03-14-2012, 10:46 PM
Kevon's just mad we haven't traded for Desean Jackson, signed Mike Vick and traded up for RGIII as well. Mad an non-sexy contributing position is being reinforced.

kevoncox
03-14-2012, 10:54 PM
Talk about not knowing the facts. We didn't waste 25 million. We at most wasted 11 million if he turns out to be a complete waste... over 5 years. so 2.25 mil per year. Wanna know Shiancoe's contract numbers? Base salary adds up to 5-year, 11.2 million. Add another 7 mil in signing bonuses then other incentives, the guaranteed money is the same for a younger, possibly more talented player.

Actually you would have to include his first year's contact to that number as he most likely would have had to have played 1 year before we cut him. I wouldn't have nitpicked such an insignificant point because I knew what you were trying to say but... I had to point out how asinine it is to do so when you know I was talking about the total contact and not 25 million in 1 year.

If you took the time to look deeper you would have noticed that we were injury riddled at the WR position last season and it only made sense to run multiple TE sets. However, you should also see based on the stats...that was utterly useless.
You talk about time on the field together..... Look at this stat.
Shanks last 3 games, the same time Rudolph caught fire..... 0 yards, 0 catches, 0 tds
Read my lips...we run multiple TE sets but only one gets the ball. So.. did we draft a backup TE last season with a #2 pick or did we just sign a backup for 11million ? Either way we lose.

kevoncox
03-14-2012, 10:59 PM
Kevon's just mad we haven't traded for Desean Jackson, signed Mike Vick and traded up for RGIII as well. Mad an non-sexy contributing position is being reinforced.

Actually I am not. I don't want Jackson. I wanted Vick coming out of Prison (and I was right) but I wouldn't trade for him or trade up for RG3.

You mistake me for a fool my friend. The fact remains that money WASTED... yes I said WASTED on a backup TE could have been spent to get the best guard in the game on this team. You know that position of Guard, the same one that protects our Qbs, the same position we have no one to fill at this moment. Well silly me, I believe that that 5 million per season we are willing (based on potential :irked:) to pay a backup TE would be better put towards a starting guard, or Cb, or safety, or MLB, Or DT, or RG, Or WR, or WLB...
BECAUSE WE DONT ALREADY HAVE ONE OF THOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i_bleed_purple
03-14-2012, 11:01 PM
Actually you would have to include his first year's contact to that number as he most likely would have had to have played 1 year before we cut him. I wouldn't have nitpicked such an insignificant point because I knew what you were trying to say but... I had to point out how asinine it is to do so when you know I was talking about the total contact and not 25 million in 1 year.

If you took the time to look deeper you would have noticed that we were injury riddled at the WR position last season and it only made sense to run multiple TE sets. However, you should also see based on the stats...that was utterly useless.
You talk about time on the field together..... Look at this stat.
Shanks last 3 games, the same time Rudolph caught fire..... 0 yards, 0 catches, 0 tds
Read my lips...we run multiple TE sets but only one gets the ball. So.. did we draft a backup TE last season with a #2 pick or did we just sign a backup for 11million ? Either way we lose.

Keep in mind as well, we have a QB with a weak arm. Getting the ball out to the outside receivers takes a bit more zip, something he doesn't have. Throwing to the slot/TE's across the middle seems like something that would be better suited for him, so adding another athletic receiving TE is a good idea.

i_bleed_purple
03-14-2012, 11:04 PM
Actually I am not. I don't want Jackson. I wanted Vick coming out of Prison (and I was right) but I wouldn't trade for him or trade up for RG3.

You mistake me for a fool my friend.

I'm mostly bugging, mainly pointing out how we never seem to ever agree on any personel moves.



The fact remains that money WASTED... yes I said WASTED on a backup TE could have been spent to get the best guard in the game on this team.
We have 24 mil in cap space, the money used on Carlson in no way affects our ability to go after Nicks. Spielman's inability to recognize our lack of talent is what caused Nicks to go elsewhere


You know that position of Guard, the same one that protects our Qbs, the same position we have no one to fill at this moment. Well silly me, I believe that that 5 million per season we are willing (based on potential :irked:) to pay a backup TE would be better put towards a starting guard, or Cb, or safety, or MLB, Or DT, or RG, Or WR, or WLB...
BECAUSE WE DONT ALREADY HAVE ONE OF THOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, we're not going to be winning next year. I know you were one of the hopeful that thought we could be a 9 win team. We're not. Pick up some good talented players to build up our offense or defense and build in the draft as well. Nicks would have been a great pickup, and I'm still hopeful for either OJ Atogwe or Laron Landry, but other than that, not alot of players I really like who are younger and can make an impact for a while with us. Ther eis no point of signing an older vet for most positions, because we will not be having a winning season anyway.

Mr Anderson
03-14-2012, 11:23 PM
Did you guys watch the games last year?
Are you delusional? Don't worry, I'll help draw a picture.
Rudolph -26 catches 249 yards
Shank -36 catches 409 yards

Our team is now down a star running back and our defense has been dismantled.
Even if Rudolph and Carson double those numbers. Its a bad signing. The guy had 627 YARDS when he was the only option for a team. We could have gotten a more athletic M. Bennett for a fraction of the cost. Either we wasted a 2nd round pick on a TE who is now a back up, or we wasted 25 million on a backup TE, :(
Rudolph - 818
Carlson - 500
Yeah we should've gone after the super athlete Martellus Bennett. I'd love to watch him run 4.7 40s down the field and drop balls. Maybe he can whiff on blocks and run the wrong routes too. Maybe he can use his 34" vertical and 6'6" length to knock the ball out of the defenders hands when he fails to adjust to it.

In 3 years with Dallas he never emerged. 3 years with the same QB on a winning team. At least he has his clothing line.

Carlson's stats aren't outstanding, but they blow Bennett out of the water and the situation in Seattle has been far worse than in Dallas. He's not as good of an athlete, but Bennett's not all that great either. Carlson is a more well rounded player and no one has ever questioned his focus.

Did we overpay for him? Possibly. We don't know yet. Fact of the matter, he was the best available tight end. Our coaches liked him, we got him. You can find any reason in the world not to like the guy, but he's here and the contract really isn't all that bad. Not nearly as bad as the contract we gave Shiancoe as a free agent, and while he was here underperforming for most of his years, where was everyone hating on him for the amount of money he was making?

kevoncox
03-15-2012, 12:20 AM
Yeah we should've gone after the super athlete Martellus Bennett. I'd love to watch him run 4.7 40s down the field and drop balls. Maybe he can whiff on blocks and run the wrong routes too. Maybe he can use his 34" vertical and 6'6" length to knock the ball out of the defenders hands when he fails to adjust to it.

In 3 years with Dallas he never emerged. 3 years with the same QB on a winning team. At least he has his clothing line.

Carlson's stats aren't outstanding, but they blow Bennett out of the water and the situation in Seattle has been far worse than in Dallas. He's not as good of an athlete, but Bennett's not all that great either. Carlson is a more well rounded player and no one has ever questioned his focus.

Did we overpay for him? Possibly. We don't know yet. Fact of the matter, he was the best available tight end. Our coaches liked him, we got him. You can find any reason in the world not to like the guy, but he's here and the contract really isn't all that bad. Not nearly as bad as the contract we gave Shiancoe as a free agent, and while he was here underperforming for most of his years, where was everyone hating on him for the amount of money he was making?

Bennett has always been a back up TE to one of the top 3 TEs in the league. Carlson was a starter that had an above average rookie season, an average soph season and haven't done anything for 2 years. We reward this guy with a 5 million per year contact? That's Davis, Gates money.

AngloVike
03-15-2012, 04:05 AM
My take on this is that when we drafted Rudolph it was with a view to him replacing Shiancoe which is now coming to pass. Bringing Carlson in merely brings in a #2 TE to replace Rudolph - no point in bringing a top rated TE who would want even more money especially when we really don't do much in the way of utilising 2 TE sets.

Purple Floyd
03-15-2012, 07:21 AM
Keep in mind as well, we have a QB with a weak arm. Getting the ball out to the outside receivers takes a bit more zip, something he doesn't have. Throwing to the slot/TE's across the middle seems like something that would be better suited for him, so adding another athletic receiving TE is a good idea.

Exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

Purple Floyd
03-15-2012, 07:29 AM
It makes a ton of sense to get a FA TE if you look at the roster and what they are trying to do. They are building around AP and Ponder. Nothing can help the running game in our offense more than two TE sets and if they feel this is the guy, then it was a good choice. Now it is up to Carlson to earn the money. Also, as IBP stated Ponder doesn't have the greatest arm in the world so having TE's to throw to is probably a better option than having a bunch of speed guys who would outrun his throws.

The only thing I will say is if this is the direction they are going(Ball control,power football) then I hope to hell they either use the 3 pick on Cliaborne or trade back and get a guy like kirkpatrick and one of the other top 3 LT's. If they use the 3 on Kalil and try to get by with 2nd and later round CB's and what is left in FA we are going to be in all kinds of trouble because you cannot run a ball control offense and give up yards and points like our secondary has been doing.

kevoncox
03-15-2012, 07:58 AM
Exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

I'm not against adding an athletic TE. I am against paying him starter money.

jmcdon00
03-15-2012, 09:34 AM
I'm not against adding an athletic TE. I am against paying him starter money.
He will probably be the starter, why shouldn't he get starter money?
We all love Rudolph, he made some nice catches and showed soft hands, but he only caught 26 balls playing in all 16 games and starting for 8 of them. In Carlson's rookie season he caught 55 balls, and started 9 games. Carlson also had slightly better numbers at Notre Dame.
At the very least it will be a competition for playing time between the two.

i_bleed_purple
03-15-2012, 09:53 AM
I'm not against adding an athletic TE. I am against paying him starter money.

When he'll be playing most of the offensive snaps, I'm fine with whatever you deem to be starter money:

(oh, and for reference:
Gates: 6-year, $40 mil
Witten: 5-year, $37 mil
Davis: 6-year, $42.7 mil
Daniels: 4-year, $22 mil
Cooley: 6-year, $30 mil

He does NOT make Davis/Gates money, he makes competive money for above average TE's in the league. LIke it or not, we're not going with a 3-wide 1 TE set very much. It'll be alot of 2 TE sets, which requires we need 2 decent TE's.

kevoncox
03-15-2012, 10:39 AM
When he'll be playing most of the offensive snaps, I'm fine with whatever you deem to be starter money:

(oh, and for reference:
Gates: 6-year, $40 mil
Witten: 5-year, $37 mil
Davis: 6-year, $42.7 mil
Daniels: 4-year, $22 mil
Cooley: 6-year, $30 mil

He does NOT make Davis/Gates money, he makes competive money for above average TE's in the league. LIke it or not, we're not going with a 3-wide 1 TE set very much. It'll be alot of 2 TE sets, which requires we need 2 decent TE's.

You list Gates, Witten, and Davis and say this is for above average TEs? :clap:
My point is, in our offense our TEs did shit. They will continue to do Shit because we do not have a good team. We just cut our two starting guards. Which means out TE will have to block even more than last year. All of the TEs you mentioned have been productive minus C.C.

kevoncox
03-15-2012, 10:49 AM
He will probably be the starter, why shouldn't he get starter money?
We all love Rudolph, he made some nice catches and showed soft hands, but he only caught 26 balls playing in all 16 games and starting for 8 of them. In Carlson's rookie season he caught 55 balls, and started 9 games. Carlson also had slightly better numbers at Notre Dame.
At the very least it will be a competition for playing time between the two.

I can't believe people are saying this is a good idea.

We dont have a starting

FS
SS
WLB
MLB
LCB and the other is coming off of IR and is 35+
WR#2 is Emmanuel Arceneaux

And you guys think that signing a 2nd TE to a lucrative deal is a good idea!!!!!!
Lol. We are easily the worst team in the league right now.

My point is good teams get better because they address their issues. The Bucs are looking like they might be the worst team in their division or at least in a fight with the Panthers. They go out and they fix their issues. They address their team to make them competitive. They may not take over the Saints of the Falcons for the best team in the division but if they do nothing they definitely will not be competitive. We are terrible at drafting. Our scouting department is in love with late round picks that due nothing for the team. We trade back in the 4th and 5th and collect tons of crap picks. We need to package those picks and live in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

i_bleed_purple
03-15-2012, 11:08 AM
You list Gates, Witten, and Davis and say this is for above average TEs? :clap:
My point is, in our offense our TEs did shit. They will continue to do Shit because we do not have a good team. We just cut our two starting guards. Which means out TE will have to block even more than last year. All of the TEs you mentioned have been productive minus C.C.

apparently you have your monitor still on 620*480 resolution, and scrolling down to view the rest of my post is too much work for you. Understandable. Let me help you. I included Owen Daniels and Chris cooley. Keller will make 3 mill in base salary this year, comparable. Comparable to other above average te's in the league as well.

The thing is, the bucs have a qb, they have receivers, they have some tools on defense. They are a few fas away from being good. We are not. We can't buy a competitive team, why compromise our cap situation just so we can stock up on fas that will be gone by the time we actually become good. Like it or not, we'll only build a winner by drafting and signing a few key fas to build around. If we can't feet well, then we need a staff change. What better way than exposing spielman as the worthless turd he is?

NodakPaul
03-15-2012, 11:16 AM
I can't believe people are saying this is a good idea.

We dont have a starting

FS
SS
WLB
MLB
LCB and the other is coming off of IR and is 35+
WR#2 is Emmanuel Arceneaux

And you guys think that signing a 2nd TE to a lucrative deal is a good idea!!!!!!
Lol. We are easily the worst team in the league right now.

My point is good teams get better because they address their issues. The Bucs are looking like they might be the worst team in their division or at least in a fight with the Panthers. They go out and they fix their issues. They address their team to make them competitive. They may not take over the Saints of the Falcons for the best team in the division but if they do nothing they definitely will not be competitive. We are terrible at drafting. Our scouting department is in love with late round picks that due nothing for the team. We trade back in the 4th and 5th and collect tons of crap picks. We need to package those picks and live in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

Just because we have other needs doesn't mean that signing a TE isn't a good deal. (especially one that will complement Rudolph in 2 TE sets)

Yes, we have lots of needs. And No, we aren't making a lot of headway against those needs. I listened to Rick Speilman yesterday on KFAN, and it sounds like that was the plan all along. He definitely wants to BUILD a team, not sign one. If it works, it is a great strategy. If it doesn't, well, we'll know that soon enough.

I am OK with being patient and seeing what happens over the entire offseason and regular season. I am OK with giving him the chance to succeed or fail.

I honestly believe that we are going to shore up our offense first, and then work on the defense. Let's face it - offense sells tickets. Pick up Kahlil and a top tier WR in the draft (maybe even trading up if Blackmon falls out of the top ten - not likely, but possible). Pick up a new RG in the early third. Suddenly with a revamped OL and new targets for Ponder, our offense may start to be fun to watch again.

yes, that means that we are going to have holes still on defense. And to be fair, we probably would be in the top ten against next draft. But then we would be able to concentrate on the defense...

As a fanatic, I want to win now. As a fan, I want to see us in the Superbowl in the next 5 years. I wish I knew the best way to get there. I am leery of Speilman's tactics, but I can see the potential in them.

i_bleed_purple
03-15-2012, 11:17 AM
I can't believe people are saying this is a good idea.

We dont have a starting

FS
SS
WLB
MLB
LCB and the other is coming off of IR and is 35+
WR#2 is Emmanuel Arceneaux

And you guys think that signing a 2nd TE to a lucrative deal is a good idea!!!!!!
Lol. We are easily the worst team in the league right now.

My point is good teams get better because they address their issues. The Bucs are looking like they might be the worst team in their division or at least in a fight with the Panthers. They go out and they fix their issues. They address their team to make them competitive. They may not take over the Saints of the Falcons for the best team in the division but if they do nothing they definitely will not be competitive. We are terrible at drafting. Our scouting department is in love with late round picks that due nothing for the team. We trade back in the 4th and 5th and collect tons of crap picks. We need to package those picks and live in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

Again, it's not like we signed carlson at the expense of signing nicks. We were obviously never going after nicks. Oj and landry are still available. We have 25 mil in space, why not spend? Even if every dime of Carlson's contract counts against the cap, we still have 18 mill, better than half the teams in the league.

Spielman evidently had a plan for fa, which isn't to sign allot of players. THERE is absolutely no reason that this was a bad move. You claim money, but are you paying him? Didn't think so. Does it hurt or cap shape? Didn't think so. Does it give us a needed te, a position of which we now only have one real player on the roster? Sure does. Does it give us a younger player who will be with us for five years, insurance if Rudolph gets hurt? Yep.

jmcdon00
03-15-2012, 11:32 AM
I can't believe people are saying this is a good idea.

We dont have a starting

FS
SS
WLB
MLB
LCB and the other is coming off of IR and is 35+
WR#2 is Emmanuel Arceneaux

And you guys think that signing a 2nd TE to a lucrative deal is a good idea!!!!!!
Lol. We are easily the worst team in the league right now.

My point is good teams get better because they address their issues. The Bucs are looking like they might be the worst team in their division or at least in a fight with the Panthers. They go out and they fix their issues. They address their team to make them competitive. They may not take over the Saints of the Falcons for the best team in the division but if they do nothing they definitely will not be competitive. We are terrible at drafting. Our scouting department is in love with late round picks that due nothing for the team. We trade back in the 4th and 5th and collect tons of crap picks. We need to package those picks and live in the 3rd and 4th rounds.
We have many needs, and they will be addressed in the draft. There is a lack of TE in this draft, which is why they knew they had to get a FA TE.
If they Vikings were to try to fill every hole through free agency we would be over the cap. Instead they will attempt to fill holes with the draft, and then based on how those rookies pan out fill the gaps that remain with FA.

Mr Anderson
03-15-2012, 11:42 AM
I can't believe people are saying this is a good idea.

We dont have a starting

FS
SS
WLB
MLB
LCB and the other is coming off of IR and is 35+
WR#2 is Emmanuel Arceneaux

And you guys think that signing a 2nd TE to a lucrative deal is a good idea!!!!!!
Lol. We are easily the worst team in the league right now.

My point is good teams get better because they address their issues. The Bucs are looking like they might be the worst team in their division or at least in a fight with the Panthers. They go out and they fix their issues. They address their team to make them competitive. They may not take over the Saints of the Falcons for the best team in the division but if they do nothing they definitely will not be competitive. We are terrible at drafting. Our scouting department is in love with late round picks that due nothing for the team. We trade back in the 4th and 5th and collect tons of crap picks. We need to package those picks and live in the 3rd and 4th rounds.
So because we have other needs, we should ignore this one?

Shiancoe is a free agent, Kleinsasser retired and Dugan is... Dugan.

You just assume that the coaching staff is going to make Kyle Rudolph the #1 guy. He's a second year guy who showed some flashes. Mistral Raymond showed some flashes - why should we bother going after a safety?

9 months from now I might tell you this was a shitty signing, but I'm gonna try to look at it from an objective perspective right now. I didn't expect them to spend on a tight end, but they did. My feelings aren't hurt. As much as I've questioned this team, they know a hell of a lot more than I do, and obviously they like this guy. Maybe the plan for this years team was different than last? I think they expected too much from McNabb and had to scrap the whole plan when they realized he was the worst QB in the league. Didn't you want us to sign him? There is almost no way Carlson has a season worse than McNabb did in 2011. And we paid McNabb $5 million last season.

You were wrong about McNabb. Can you admit you might be wrong about this? No one is saying this a slam dunk, guaranteed great deal for us, merely that it's not that bad, even potentially good. You are making it out to be horrible, with no real reasoning other than "we have other needs" and phony contract claims about Vernon Davis or Antonio Gates with exclamation points and smilies.

skum
03-15-2012, 11:49 AM
Al he is saying is that OL, DB's and WR's are more pressing needs and giving 25 million with 11 guaranteed seems illogic, even if we use many two-TE sets id rather have given the shot to Reisner, Shuler or an UDFA, saved the money and targeted one of the many OL's, WR's or DB's on the market.

skum
03-15-2012, 11:53 AM
We have many needs, and they will be addressed in the draft. There is a lack of TE in this draft, which is why they knew they had to get a FA TE.
If they Vikings were to try to fill every hole through free agency we would be over the cap. Instead they will attempt to fill holes with the draft, and then based on how those rookies pan out fill the gaps that remain with FA.

Right now we need 1 or 2 starters at CB, 2 Starters at S, 1 or 2 starters at LB, 1 or 2 starters at WR, 3 Starters on the OL, you are gonna have a very hard time finding that many starters in the draft.

i_bleed_purple
03-15-2012, 12:25 PM
even if we use many two-TE sets id rather have given the shot to Reisner, Shuler or an UDFA, saved the money and targeted one of the many OL's, WR's or DB's on the market.

And this, ladies and gentlemen is why we are in such a shit position as a team.

Releasing established contributors like SHarper, Shiancoe, McKinnie, Leber, Pat Williams, Moss, etc. and replacing them with the Reisners, Shulers and UDFA's of the NFL.

That strategy doesn't work. We have ONE TE worth a damn on the roster. Now we have two. That position is no longer a glaring need. Best thing is, our replacement TE is at very worst, just as productive as Shank has been the past two years. At best, he's even better.

i_bleed_purple
03-15-2012, 12:31 PM
Right now we need 1 or 2 starters at CB, 2 Starters at S, 1 or 2 starters at LB, 1 or 2 starters at WR, 3 Starters on the OL, you are gonna have a very hard time finding that many starters in the draft.

And you're going to have an even harder time finding all those starters in free agency. While staying under the cap.

People need to realize.... WE WILL NOT HAVE A COMPETITIVE TEAM THIS SEASON. there's too many holes. We aren't going to all of a sudden go from crap to a 13 win team. It just won't happen. We won't fill all the holes through free agency, if we do we'll be in cap hell for the next few years and be even worse than last season.

Like it or not, this is how you rebuild. Sign a couple key young guys, maybe spend on one or two free agents then draft well. Those who execute this well and draft well do well (see packers, pats, etc) Those who don't, well... don't.

We need to draft well, but we can not buy a team, no matter how badly Kevon wants to.

Mr Anderson
03-15-2012, 12:41 PM
And you're going to have an even harder time finding all those starters in free agency. While staying under the cap.

People need to realize.... WE WILL NOT HAVE A COMPETITIVE TEAM THIS SEASON. there's too many holes. We aren't going to all of a sudden go from crap to a 13 win team. It just won't happen. We won't fill all the holes through free agency, if we do we'll be in cap hell for the next few years and be even worse than last season.

Like it or not, this is how you rebuild. Sign a couple key young guys, maybe spend on one or two free agents then draft well. Those who execute this well and draft well do well (see packers, pats, etc) Those who don't, well... don't.

We need to draft well, but we can not buy a team, no matter how badly Kevon wants to.

http://www.pajiba.com/assets_c/2011/02/facebook-like-buton-thumb-450x287-20701.png

SharperImage
03-15-2012, 12:52 PM
BUT I WANT TO WIN NOW!!! *8 yr old girl voice* *Throws Tantrum*

who wants to lose? or watch ur team get their ass kicked every sunday, and u be depressed while their getting their ass kicked? Can't even watch NFLN or sportscenter cause they'll be talking shit about ur team? I dont want 3 years of that shit.. for a potential good team in 3-4 years IF Spielman doesnt fudge it up, and draft incorrectly -_-

C Mac D
03-15-2012, 12:59 PM
And you're going to have an even harder time finding all those starters in free agency. While staying under the cap.

People need to realize.... WE WILL NOT HAVE A COMPETITIVE TEAM THIS SEASON. there's too many holes. We aren't going to all of a sudden go from crap to a 13 win team. It just won't happen. We won't fill all the holes through free agency, if we do we'll be in cap hell for the next few years and be even worse than last season.

Like it or not, this is how you rebuild. Sign a couple key young guys, maybe spend on one or two free agents then draft well. Those who execute this well and draft well do well (see packers, pats, etc) Those who don't, well... don't.

We need to draft well, but we can not buy a team, no matter how badly Kevon wants to.

Question, (even though I agree with you) how did the Dolphins go from a 1-15 record in 2007 to winning the AFC East in 2008? Did they re-draft Chad Pennington?

C Mac D
03-15-2012, 01:07 PM
I dont want 3 years of that shit.. for a potential good team in 3-4 years IF Spielman doesnt fudge it up, and draft incorrectly -_-

Spielman has never drafted effectively and has continually destroyed rosters throughout his entire career. The 100% truth. (just look at who's left on our roster from the past 6 drafts.. then look at the bang-up job he did on the Dolphins)

The fact that he was promoted to GM despite his abysmal draft record shows that the Vikings' issues start at the top... The Wilfs.

kevoncox
03-15-2012, 02:37 PM
You were wrong about McNabb. Can you admit you might be wrong about this? No one is saying this a slam dunk, guaranteed great deal for us, merely that it's not that bad, even potentially good. You are making it out to be horrible, with no real reasoning other than "we have other needs" and phony contract claims about Vernon Davis or Antonio Gates with exclamation points and smilies.

You made some good points about Mcnabb and I was wrong but that means I am at a push with the front office.

As far as you claiming I'm not backing my claims of contacts with ":) & !!!!!s"
Top 10 Highest Paid Tight Ends in the NFL 2011 | Football | Top 10 Lists - Numeroten (http://www.numeroten.com/top10/sports/files/top-10-highest-paid-tight-ends-in-the-nfl-2011.html)
I never just run my mouth. I could seek better numbers for you but meh, I think a 5 sec search should do.

It's not a foolish signing but it is a waste. I provided figueres that show that our TEs are rarely a factor. That's not going to change with the signing of a guy that lost his starting job last season and had 300 yards receiving the year before. We begged this guy to skip going to KC and come see us and then threw a crapload of money at him. I have no faith in the draft process with this FO. We will hit the mark in rounds 1, 2 and 3. We will blow it the remaining rounds and find an average player in the 6th. We cannot build thru the draft Look at the last 6 years. What have we built? Everyone of the draft picks from round 3 or later is in turmoil.

Wr? no
Te? no
OL? Sully
DE? Robinson...rotating with another 4th rounder.
DT? Nothing of value
LB? No
CB? A. Allen...NO
Saftey? Raymond and Sanford are starting but would be backups elsewhere. NO...

So in our entire roster. We have one guy on our team of value drafted past round 2.
Hell I will throw in AA and Robinson just because. I'll even give you Joe Webb. We have 4 guys on our roster that was drafted after the 3rd round. Yet, you guys think we are going to be building thru the draft successfully? Wanna by my bridge in Brooklyn?

kevoncox
03-15-2012, 02:40 PM
And this, ladies and gentlemen is why we are in such a shit position as a team.

Releasing established contributors like SHarper, Shiancoe, McKinnie, Leber, Pat Williams, Moss, etc. and replacing them with the Reisners, Shulers and UDFA's of the NFL.

That strategy doesn't work. We have ONE TE worth a damn on the roster. Now we have two. That position is no longer a glaring need. Best thing is, our replacement TE is at very worst, just as productive as Shank has been the past two years. At best, he's even better.

Make up your mind. Are we rebuilding thru the draft or signing free agents. Cause you are talking about signing free agents.

Heres a hint, a competitive team does both.

Giants = Draft and sign
Ravens = Draft and sign
Pats = Draft and sign
49ers = Draft and sign
Saints = Draft and sign

kevoncox
03-15-2012, 02:43 PM
Al he is saying is that OL, DB's and WR's are more pressing needs and giving 25 million with 11 guaranteed seems illogic, even if we use many two-TE sets id rather have given the shot to Reisner, Shuler or an UDFA, saved the money and targeted one of the many OL's, WR's or DB's on the market.

Thank you. It's like having no legs but buying sneakers. You have more important needs. I rather take a lessor TE to be our #2 than to take a lessor Cb because we have none of those and will need the best one we can get.

i_bleed_purple
03-15-2012, 06:50 PM
Make up your mind. Are we rebuilding thru the draft or signing free agents. Cause you are talking about signing free agents.

Starting players like Reisner and Schuler isn't exactly building through the draft. It's starting 6th and 7th round players who can't play.

You build through the draft, and sign a couple FA's, but you don't go out and sign a team. It never works.



Giants = Draft and sign
What key players have they signed?
All their key players were drafted or project players tha panned out
Eli, Bradshaw, Jacobs, Manningham, Cruz, Boss, Snee, Diehl, Umenyora, Pierre-Paul, Hixon, Nicks, Tuck, Kiwanuka, Phillips, Webster
A FEW key players like Rolle, Boley and... well that's about it, were signed as FA's. The rest of the important key players were drafted by the Giants.

kevoncox
03-15-2012, 08:15 PM
Starting players like Reisner and Schuler isn't exactly building through the draft. It's starting 6th and 7th round players who can't play.

You build through the draft, and sign a couple FA's, but you don't go out and sign a team. It never works.


What key players have they signed?
All their key players were drafted or project players tha panned out
Eli, Bradshaw, Jacobs, Manningham, Cruz, Boss, Snee, Diehl, Umenyora, Pierre-Paul, Hixon, Nicks, Tuck, Kiwanuka, Phillips, Webster
A FEW key players like Rolle, Boley and... well that's about it, were signed as FA's. The rest of the important key players were drafted by the Giants.

Kevin Boss, TE for the Oakland Raiders at NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/player/kevinboss/2495557/profile)
Just got signed by the Chiefs. A very similar player and their stats are near identical.
3 years 9 million
We paid 5 years 25 million.

To address your question I need more info about what you asking.
1. Are you talking about this year? They won the superbowl :irked:
2. They signed Canty, Boley, Antrel Rolle.
You still want me to continue. :haha:
The fact remains they signed starters. Starters. Former starters to start. They were missing key positions and filled them. We are missing key positions and filled one we already had. Congrats we are set at TE and Punter. Our FA strategy has been sign players from the CFL. The fucking Lions are better than us. Where is the pride that we deserve more than consecutive 3 win seasons. Where is the pride! When did accepting ineptitude become ok. This guy has been running the draft here for years. Moving him to GM won't do shit. HE CANNOT DRAFT. Not in Chicago, Not in Miami. Damn sure not in Minnesota. Look at the track record. I mean he traded a 2nd and 3rd to draft a back up running back. Who does that????? Yet, you and others sit here and talk about his plan like he has earned faith in his abilities. You know what....here is another smiley :rofl:, you've earned it.

i_bleed_purple
03-15-2012, 08:43 PM
Kevin Boss, TE for the Oakland Raiders at NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/player/kevinboss/2495557/profile)
Just got signed by the Chiefs. A very similar player and their stats are near identical.
3 years 9 million
We paid 5 years 25 million.

To address your question I need more info about what you asking.
1. Are you talking about this year? They won the superbowl :irked:
2. They signed Canty, Boley, Antrel Rolle.
So they had a very solid group of players they drafted themselves, and signed 3 decent players to fill the few holes they still had.

Compare that to us, who have a group of three solid players we drafted ourselves, one of which coming off a devastating knee injury, we can not fill the holes through free agency.

please, enlighten me. What do we gain by spending big money in free agency? A year of mediocrity? THey won't all stay, some will leave, we'll have mid-round draft picks for the next 3 years, never improving, but not really being that bad either. We won't have much cap space to contest for a superstar if one hits the market in the upcoming years.


You still want me to continue. :haha:
Please do


The fact remains they signed starters. Starters. Former starters to start. They were missing key positions and filled them. We are missing key positions and filled one we already had. Congrats we are set at TE and Punter. Our FA strategy has been sign players from the CFL. The fucking Lions are better than us. Where is the pride that we deserve more than consecutive 3 win seasons. Where is the pride! When did accepting ineptitude become ok. This guy has been running the draft here for years. Moving him to GM won't do shit. HE CANNOT DRAFT. Not in Chicago, Not in Miami. Damn sure not in Minnesota. Look at the track record. I mean he traded a 2nd and 3rd to draft a back up running back. Who does that????? Yet, you and others sit here and talk about his plan like he has earned faith in his abilities. You know what....here is another smiley :rofl:, you've earned it.

So you don't like Speilman.. join the crowd. But overspending on free agency isn't going to hel pthat at all. Best we can do is hope he figures out how to draft when he's running the show by himself. Because we WILL NOT be a superbowl team by trying to fill all these holes through free agency. We just won't.

i_bleed_purple
03-15-2012, 08:44 PM
Two years ago, you would have a very valid stance. Now, not so much.

kevoncox
03-15-2012, 09:41 PM
So you don't like Speilman.. join the crowd. But overspending on free agency isn't going to hel pthat at all. Best we can do is hope he figures out how to draft when he's running the show by himself. Because we WILL NOT be a superbowl team by trying to fill all these holes through free agency. We just won't.

Lets forget the other stuff and focus on this. I want you to understand me clearly. I do not want us to overspend in FA. I am simply saying the money that we have invested in this clearly average TE should have been spent elsewhere. We have bigger needs than the 2nd TE in our offense. Thats it. Im not saying lets buy a team. I am saying we are gonna spend this money...spend it where it matters. That was my entire point.

You danced around the Kevin Boss contact nicely. Were a ballerina in a past life?
*wink*

i_bleed_purple
03-15-2012, 10:29 PM
You danced around the Kevin Boss contact nicely. Were a ballerina in a past life?
*wink*

Ok, Oakland wants him to start, Boss wants to start. Boss isn't that great, won't get a ton of money, but takes the opportunity.

Carlson is a decent player with a load of upside. Carlson came on his first visit to Minny, talked and signe don the spot because the Vikigns want him and were willing to pay. What is your point?

We probably would have had to pay Boss more as well if he were coming here to be our #2... or just pay him more to come here at all.

kevoncox
03-15-2012, 11:36 PM
Ok, Oakland wants him to start, Boss wants to start. Boss isn't that great, won't get a ton of money, but takes the opportunity.

Carlson is a decent player with a load of upside. Carlson came on his first visit to Minny, talked and signe don the spot because the Vikigns want him and were willing to pay. What is your point?

We probably would have had to pay Boss more as well if he were coming here to be our #2... or just pay him more to come here at all.

Perharps that's the issue we disagree on. Boss and Carlson are the same players in my mind. Decent TEs nothing spectacular. I don't think Carlson has some untapped potential. I believe he is exact what you see from him. At best a 600 yard guy when a team has no other targets. A 400 yard guy when they do. Had we signed him to a 5 year Boss like contact, you wouldn't have heard a peep from me.

i_bleed_purple
03-16-2012, 12:19 AM
Yeah, a 400 yard guy with the likes of TJ throwing to him. 600 yard guy when hurt.

Fact is, $2.5 mil isn't that much per year for a guy who should be playing the majority of snaps out there.

singersp
03-16-2012, 07:55 AM
So they had a very solid group of players they drafted themselves, and signed 3 decent players to fill the few holes they still had.

Compare that to us, who have a group of three solid players we drafted ourselves, one of which coming off a devastating knee injury, we can not fill the holes through free agency.

please, enlighten me. What do we gain by spending big money in free agency? A year of mediocrity? THey won't all stay, some will leave, we'll have mid-round draft picks for the next 3 years, never improving, but not really being that bad either. We won't have much cap space to contest for a superstar if one hits the market in the upcoming years.

Please do


So you don't like Speilman.. join the crowd. But overspending on free agency isn't going to hel pthat at all. Best we can do is hope he figures out how to draft when he's running the show by himself. Because we WILL NOT be a superbowl team by trying to fill all these holes through free agency. We just won't.

Here's a list of Vikings players that are FA this year. Granted a few of then are long gone, but still you can see there are a lot of holes to fill. There are 3 listed that have resigned. Unfortunately, none of them are starters as of yet, although Brown might start due to the shortage of OL men on the roster.

QB Donovan McNabb UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
QB Ryan Perrilloux RFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
QB Sage Rosenfels Re-signed Minnesota Vikings Minnesota Vikings
RB Albert Young Signed Minnesota Vikings Pittsburgh Steelers
WR Devin Aromashodu UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
WR Bernard Berrian UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
WR Greg Camarillo UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
WR Owen Spencer Signed Minnesota Vikings Cleveland Browns
TE Jeff Dugan UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
TE Jim Kleinsasser UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
TE Visanthe Shiancoe UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
OT Patrick Brown Re-signed Minnesota Vikings Minnesota Vikings
OG Anthony Herrera UFA (Cut) Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
OG Steve Hutchinson Signed Minnesota Vikings Tennessee Titans
C Matt Katula UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
DL Fred Evans UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
DL Letroy Guion Re-signed Minnesota Vikings Minnesota Vikings
LB Xavier Adibi UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
LB E.J. Henderson UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
LB Erin Henderson UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
CB Cedric Griffin UFA (Cut) Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
CB Cord Parks Signed Minnesota Vikings New Orleans Saints
CB Benny Sapp UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
SS Husain Abdullah UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
SS Tyrell Johnson UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
SS Jarrad Page UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent

So far, from what I see the Vikings have 8 picks in the upcoming draft, plus two compensatory picks for Rice & Edwards.

Do you really believe those 8 picks will address all our holes? How many of those 8 picks do you believe will pan out?

Do you believe we'll be a better team by replacing all those veterans with rookies, UDFA's & walk ons?

True you can sign a bigger name FA & have him walk after his contract is up. How is that any different than a draft pick? You bring him in, train him, end up making him a starter only to watch him flee elsewhere for that big payday on another team.

We have to sign a few top players in FA to replace the top players we lost otherwise we don't improve as a team.

Spielman won't do that. He'll once again look for bargain basement filler FA players later in FA, when the pool is well picked over, who will get to start/backup & be mediocre at best.

We'll probably have a worse offense line than last year, even if we draft Kalil, protecting what appears to be a mediocre QB who has yet to orchestrate a single win in 10 starts. Yes, I'm aware he has 2 wins credited to him, but one was a bail out by the opposing teams kicker when he whiffed a chip shot FG & the other was the Redskins game where he threw for a grand total of 68 yards with 0 TD's & Webb came in to bail him out by passing for 2 TD's & running for a 3rd.

My guess is Speilman still wants to trade the 3rd pick for more value picks later in the draft & would have done so already, but there just aren't any takers yet.

Stonecoldet3
03-16-2012, 08:54 AM
We'll probably have a worse offense line than last year, even if we draft Kalil, protecting what appears to be a mediocre QB who has yet to orchestrate a single win in 10 starts. Yes, I'm aware he has 2 wins credited to him, but one was a bail out by the opposing teams kicker when he whiffed a chip shot FG & the other was the Redskins game where he threw for a grand total of 68 yards with 0 TD's & Webb came in to bail him out by passing for 2 TD's & running for a 3rd.


So let me get this straight....you discredit a win by Ponder because the opposing team missed a field goal. That is some twisted and down right silly logic at best.

Using your logic...never mind not even going to go there...

kevoncox
03-16-2012, 09:09 AM
Yeah, a 400 yard guy with the likes of TJ throwing to him. 600 yard guy when hurt.

Fact is, $2.5 mil isn't that much per year for a guy who should be playing the majority of snaps out there.

Hes never played with TJ. He played with Matt Hassellbeck and his back up when Matt went down, a damn good Qb. You really don't know anything about this guy except that he has a decent rookie season huh.

How did you figure he is getting 2.5 million a year? 11million is guaranteed not the contract. He gets that plus his base.

skum
03-16-2012, 09:21 AM
The contract is backloaded, here is the numbers for the first 3 years according to the Pioneer Press

"John Carlson salary breakdown, per NFLPA records: $2.9M for '12-13, $3.9M for '14, $4.9M for '15-16. Assuming this doesn't include bonuses"

I am asuming the next years goes 6 and 7, so he likely wont see the fourth year of the contract unless he breaks out and becomes a star TE.

https://twitter.com/#!/VikingsNow

mountainviking
03-16-2012, 12:37 PM
Here's a list of Vikings players that are FA this year. Granted a few of then are long gone, but still you can see there are a lot of holes to fill. There are 3 listed that have resigned. Unfortunately, none of them are starters as of yet, although Brown might start due to the shortage of OL men on the roster.

QB Donovan McNabb UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
QB Ryan Perrilloux RFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
QB Sage Rosenfels Re-signed Minnesota Vikings Minnesota Vikings
RB Albert Young Signed Minnesota Vikings Pittsburgh Steelers
WR Devin Aromashodu UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
WR Bernard Berrian UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
WR Greg Camarillo UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
WR Owen Spencer Signed Minnesota Vikings Cleveland Browns
TE Jeff Dugan UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
TE Jim Kleinsasser UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
TE Visanthe Shiancoe UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
OT Patrick Brown Re-signed Minnesota Vikings Minnesota Vikings
OG Anthony Herrera UFA (Cut) Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
OG Steve Hutchinson Signed Minnesota Vikings Tennessee Titans
C Matt Katula UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
DL Fred Evans UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
DL Letroy Guion Re-signed Minnesota Vikings Minnesota Vikings
LB Xavier Adibi UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
LB E.J. Henderson UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
LB Erin Henderson UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
CB Cedric Griffin UFA (Cut) Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
CB Cord Parks Signed Minnesota Vikings New Orleans Saints
CB Benny Sapp UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
SS Husain Abdullah UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
SS Tyrell Johnson UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent
SS Jarrad Page UFA Minnesota Vikings Free Agent



That list right there and our slow start to free agency is proof that we are on at least a 2-3 year rebuilding plan. As we fill some of the holes with young talent (by picking early a few years in a row) we will have more cap room and get more aggressive in free agency. At the moment, unfortunately, with our long list of holes and the NFC North as tough at it currently is, even if we blew our whole cap wad on free agents who turned out great for us, we still wouldn't compete for the playoffs this year.

Once we have a team coming together under a couple of QBs with a bit more experience, signing a couple of big name, high dollar guys will make more sense as we'll have a better idea of which positions we really missed on and what might help us the most.

mountainviking
03-16-2012, 12:39 PM
Hey, at least we're not the Colts! They've got 38 million in cap space eaten up by guys no longer on their roster!!! They might pick first next year too!?!???

kevoncox
03-16-2012, 02:03 PM
The contract is backloaded, here is the numbers for the first 3 years according to the Pioneer Press

"John Carlson salary breakdown, per NFLPA records: $2.9M for '12-13, $3.9M for '14, $4.9M for '15-16. Assuming this doesn't include bonuses"

I am asuming the next years goes 6 and 7, so he likely wont see the fourth year of the contract unless he breaks out and becomes a star TE.

https://twitter.com/#!/VikingsNow

5million signing bonus + 2.9 million in 2012

skum
03-16-2012, 02:20 PM
So his cap number will likely be around 4m.

According to Tom Pelissero, we are down to around 15m with Guion, Sage and this deal.

singersp
03-16-2012, 06:10 PM
So let me get this straight....you discredit a win by Ponder because the opposing team missed a field goal. That is some twisted and down right silly logic at best.

Using your logic...never mind not even going to go there...

Go ahead & give him & his 1 passing TD performance the orchestrated win if you want. That propels him to 1 win in 10 starts.

WOW! That changes everything! Sign him up for the Pro Bowl!

jessejames09
03-16-2012, 06:39 PM
It's time to cut our losses, we're not a handful of players away, lets accept the fact we're rebuilding. I'm glad that our front office realizes that now.

If we draft well and pick up FAs who don't break the bank, maybe we can be back in the divisional race in a couple years. I think the most important thing at this point is to not act like the skins or raiders we all know and love. Develop talent for the sake of God!

What I'm trying to say is top tier talent is waste of money and forum space at this point in time.

PackSux!
03-16-2012, 06:39 PM
Go ahead & give him & his 1 passing TD performance the orchestrated win if you want. That propels him to 1 win in 10 starts.

WOW! That changes everything! Sign him up for the Pro Bowl!

Ponder should of won a fair amount of games this year if the defense would of been able to stop somebody. Hell the kid should of beaten the Packers last year in his first game, but oops the defense(mainly the secondary and E.J. Henderson) couldnt do their job.

I see promise in our young quarterback.


A good draft makes everything better.

kevoncox
03-16-2012, 06:51 PM
It's time to cut our losses, we're not a handful of players away, lets accept the fact we're rebuilding. I'm glad that our front office realizes that now.

If we draft well and pick up FAs who don't break the bank, maybe we can be back in the divisional race in a couple years. I think the most important thing at this point is to not act like the skins or raiders we all know and love. Develop talent for the sake of God!

What I'm trying to say is top tier talent is waste of money and forum space at this point in time.

I believe what kills teams isn't signing top talent when available, its the bone headed signings of average players to large contracts. A top teir talent makes lessor talent around them better. However, many of the guys that the Skins and Raiders signed were average and ended up on the bench making large amounts of money. That kills your salary cap because you still have a position to fill and money for it is being used poorly.

I understand we are rebuilding. You rebuild by building. You don't have to draft everyone. It will never work and key positions will be too old before you get there. Everyone likes to use the Packers. They signed a top flight CB in Charles Woodson and didn't have to address that position seriously for almost 7 years.

Again, I am not saying go out there and buy a team. I am simply stating that this signing was a want, we have needs. Its apparent that we will get 3 good players in this draft and that the FO will fuck up the rest of the picks with future trades of no value and drafting Lbs to play FB /Kickers to Snap the ball.

Caine
03-16-2012, 07:53 PM
That list right there and our slow start to free agency is proof that we are on at least a 2-3 year rebuilding plan. As we fill some of the holes with young talent (by picking early a few years in a row) we will have more cap room and get more aggressive in free agency. At the moment, unfortunately, with our long list of holes and the NFC North as tough at it currently is, even if we blew our whole cap wad on free agents who turned out great for us, we still wouldn't compete for the playoffs this year.

Once we have a team coming together under a couple of QBs with a bit more experience, signing a couple of big name, high dollar guys will make more sense as we'll have a better idea of which positions we really missed on and what might help us the most.

I think you mean we're in year 2-3 of a 47 year rebuilding plan.....

Seriously, we need to be able to SPOT the talent before we can even start talking about draft versus FA signing. Our FO of late has had one hell of a time finding good players - other than Percy and Adrian who were no-brainers. Greenway has been good...but not the stud we'd hoped for yet.

So either our FO completely sucks at spotting talent or our coaching staff completely sucks at developing it and/or utilizing it. Or a combination of the two.

Bottom line, our roster is frighteningly shallow at some very critical positions. Something I don't ever recall seeing before...on both sides of the ball. And I don't see our FO making the moves to reverse that any time soon.

Caine

kevoncox
03-16-2012, 08:34 PM
I think you mean we're in year 2-3 of a 47 year rebuilding plan.....

Seriously, we need to be able to SPOT the talent before we can even start talking about draft versus FA signing. Our FO of late has had one hell of a time finding good players - other than Percy and Adrian who were no-brainers. Greenway has been good...but not the stud we'd hoped for yet.

So either our FO completely sucks at spotting talent or our coaching staff completely sucks at developing it and/or utilizing it. Or a combination of the two.

Bottom line, our roster is frighteningly shallow at some very critical positions. Something I don't ever recall seeing before...on both sides of the ball. And I don't see our FO making the moves to reverse that any time soon.

Caine
Caine,
We rarely agree but I must say you said everything I have been trying to say. We have crucial holes that will not be filled by a 6th round player.

idahovikefan7
03-16-2012, 09:41 PM
Well I had Spielmans back at first, that's already being lost now after this shit show of a FA so far. You can't solely rely on the draft, which I'm sure they will find a way to mess up as well.

So far we have let pro bowl players go, and added a TE and basketball player. Sounds like a great plan...

Formo
03-16-2012, 10:29 PM
Kevin Boss, TE for the Oakland Raiders at NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/player/kevinboss/2495557/profile)
Just got signed by the Chiefs. A very similar player and their stats are near identical.
3 years 9 million
We paid 5 years 25 million.

Carlson only got paid by us because KC was in pursuit of him as well and drove up the price. KC had to settle with Boss.

I'm not saying it was a great deal, or that I wanted the kid.

I get what you are saying and ideally I would like to have seen us sign a S or CB, or a big NT or some OL. Unfortunately, we'll likely never sign a big name DB as long as Fraizer wants to keep his Tampa2 zone scheme, and getting FAs here is probably as hard as it's ever been considering the Dump, the lack of information on a new stadium, and the team on the decline. Right now, we have to take what we can get. And if that means paying some money for a TE that we don't know about (reminds me of our signing of Shank), then so be it.

singersp
03-17-2012, 10:09 AM
Ponder should of won a fair amount of games this year if the defense would of been able to stop somebody. Hell the kid should of beaten the Packers last year in his first game, but oops the defense(mainly the secondary and E.J. Henderson) couldnt do their job.

I see promise in our young quarterback.


A good draft makes everything better.

I hope you're right. I still have doubts about him having a good deep ball & even seeing his highly touted short ball accuracy questionable at times.

Bottom line, I don't see that 'promise' coming to fruition without a huge improvement on the front line. We needed that big improvement when Hutch & Herrera were still here. We need it desperately now more than ever for any QB to some type of success.

A good draft does make things better, but it barely puts a dent in the holes we have that need filling. Some of those needs need to be addressed in FA & by that I don't mean signing basketball players who are a longshot when there's players out there that knowingly can get the job done.

mountainviking
03-17-2012, 10:25 AM
I think you mean we're in year 2-3 of a 47 year rebuilding plan.....

LOL! You got me there brother! Or is it year 47 of a 50+ year rebuilding plan!??? ;)

Seriously tho, the reason we Vikings fans are so bitter, is because we've been so close so many times. Thing is tho is that we are pretty consistent contenders...

In our entire history, we have NEVER missed the playoffs more than 4 years in a row! During the 90s we went to the playoffs 7 of 10 years: 92,93,94,96,97,98,00. From 98 to 2010 we made it all the way to the NFC Championship game 3 times!

Playoff history: Minnesota Vikings - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4785632)

According to someone's math above, just signing Guion, Rosencopter, and Carlson has already whittled our cap space down to 15 mill...does that include our rookies' wages, or is that previously set aside from that mark?

Anywho, imagine we signed Carr at CB too. He fits the mold we're looking for of a young player with room to grow and plenty of future in the league, BUT, He's making 10mill/year. That would eliminate our cap space and still leave us with more holes than a large wheel of Swiss cheese.

Problem is, we don't have much of a choice at this juncture. We need to clear some of Childress' old vets/All-In years cap crunch off of the books and replace some of those old vets with young potential before we can be big free agent players again.

Year 2 is often a step back year for young QBs anyway, as defenses now have most to a whole year of tape to study on them for gameplanning. Year 3 or 4 is where you hope your young gun(s) starts blazing.

I know, it sucks! Especially with the rest of our division looking so good and all the shit talking all our friends from around the North like to do!! But, it's going to be tough to judge Spielman and/or Frazier on this next year, cuz we are rebuilding, and there's no sugar coating it at this point. Hopefully, a year or two of Patience will Pay Off! ;)

SKOL VIKINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!


PS Both Peterson and Harvin should have gone higher, but were there at our pick due to injury/off field concerns of other teams...not quite the no-brainer you make them out to be. Also, lets not forget, some of our mid-round guys have panned out pretty well: Robison 4th, Edwards 5th, Webb 6th, Sullivan 4th, Everson Griffin 3rd...

I wonder what the league-wide percentage chance is per round of getting a productive player? Surely, it starts higher in the first and drops dramatically as you drop through the draft...?

kevoncox
03-17-2012, 10:32 AM
Carlson only got paid by us because KC was in pursuit of him as well and drove up the price. KC had to settle with Boss.

I'm not saying it was a great deal, or that I wanted the kid.

I get what you are saying and ideally I would like to have seen us sign a S or CB, or a big NT or some OL. Unfortunately, we'll likely never sign a big name DB as long as Fraizer wants to keep his Tampa2 zone scheme, and getting FAs here is probably as hard as it's ever been considering the Dump, the lack of information on a new stadium, and the team on the decline. Right now, we have to take what we can get. And if that means paying some money for a TE that we don't know about (reminds me of our signing of Shank), then so be it.
much respect

singersp
03-17-2012, 11:12 AM
LOL! You got me there brother! Or is it year 47 of a 50+ year rebuilding plan!??? ;)

Seriously tho, the reason we Vikings fans are so bitter, is because we've been so close so many times. Thing is tho is that we are pretty consistent contenders...

In our entire history, we have NEVER missed the playoffs more than 4 years in a row! During the 90s we went to the playoffs 7 of 10 years: 92,93,94,96,97,98,00. From 98 to 2010 we made it all the way to the NFC Championship game 3 times!

Playoff history: Minnesota Vikings - ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4785632)

According to someone's math above, just signing Guion, Rosencopter, and Carlson has already whittled our cap space down to 15 mill...does that include our rookies' wages, or is that previously set aside from that mark?

Anywho, imagine we signed Carr at CB too. He fits the mold we're looking for of a young player with room to grow and plenty of future in the league, BUT, He's making 10mill/year. That would eliminate our cap space and still leave us with more holes than a large wheel of Swiss cheese.

Problem is, we don't have much of a choice at this juncture. We need to clear some of Childress' old vets/All-In years cap crunch off of the books and replace some of those old vets with young potential before we can be big free agent players again.

Year 2 is often a step back year for young QBs anyway, as defenses now have most to a whole year of tape to study on them for gameplanning. Year 3 or 4 is where you hope your young gun(s) starts blazing.

I know, it sucks! Especially with the rest of our division looking so good and all the shit talking all our friends from around the North like to do!! But, it's going to be tough to judge Spielman and/or Frazier on this next year, cuz we are rebuilding, and there's no sugar coating it at this point. Hopefully, a year or two of Patience will Pay Off! ;)

SKOL VIKINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!


PS Both Peterson and Harvin should have gone higher, but were there at our pick due to injury/off field concerns of other teams...not quite the no-brainer you make them out to be. Also, lets not forget, some of our mid-round guys have panned out pretty well: Robison 4th, Edwards 5th, Webb 6th, Sullivan 4th, Everson Griffin 3rd...

I wonder what the league-wide percentage chance is per round of getting a productive player? Surely, it starts higher in the first and drops dramatically as you drop through the draft...?

Past history of playoff appearances mean nothing going forward. If playoff stats are anyone's thing, we made the playoffs 4 out of the 8 years that tight ass Red McCombs owned us & 2 out of the 6 years that Wilf owned us with an open pocketbook.

We've already ridden the team of most of Childress' vets good & bad players to make cap room & have nothing but a 3rd string QB, a TE who didn't play last year & an arena football player who played basketball, not football, in college to show for it.

Patience is one thing, but by the time we re-build through the draft, where does that leave AD & JA?

If we are tying up our money in a lot of mediocre players this year, which high salary vets will we let go to make cap room next year?

Given our recent history of drafting players, if we sign 2-3 solid players per year via the draft, how long does it take to amass a solid team of 52 players? Of 22 players? Any draft pick that pans out & plays great for us will either be seeing a huge contract by then or will gone to another team via FA.

The days of drafted players remaining with the same team that drafted them throughout their entire career are few & far in between. Jimmy K. was one of the last of a dieing breed.

Look for the Vikings to miss the playoffs 4 years in a row & probably then some.

YouthVikesFan
03-17-2012, 11:58 AM
Looks like were interested in former redskins atogwe, thoughts?

NFL Events: Free Agency (http://www.nfl.com/freeagency?module=HP11_content_stream)

Atogwe will visit the Lions next week, the team's official website reported Friday. The ex-Redskins safety also has a visit scheduled with the Vikings

He had 3 interceptions in only 13 games last year, he can only be an upgrade to what we have. Lets pray the guy can stay healthy if we grab him

kevoncox
03-17-2012, 12:31 PM
Past history of playoff appearances mean nothing going forward. If playoff stats are anyone's thing, we made the playoffs 4 out of the 8 years that tight ass Red McCombs owned us & 2 out of the 6 years that Wilf owned us with an open pocketbook.

We've already ridden the team of most of Childress' vets good & bad players to make cap room & have nothing but a 3rd string QB, a TE who didn't play last year & an arena football player who played basketball, not football, in college to show for it.

Patience is one thing, but by the time we re-build through the draft, where does that leave AD & JA?

If we are tying up our money in a lot of mediocre players this year, which high salary vets will we let go to make cap room next year?

Given our recent history of drafting players, if we sign 2-3 solid players per year via the draft, how long does it take to amass a solid team of 52 players? Of 22 players? Any draft pick that pans out & plays great for us will either be seeing a huge contract by then or will gone to another team via FA.

The days of drafted players remaining with the same team that drafted them throughout their entire career are few & far in between. Jimmy K. was one of the last of a dieing breed.

Look for the Vikings to miss the playoffs 4 years in a row & probably then some.

Everyone keeps screaming build thru the draft but fails to realize your team turns over every 5 years. They point to a team like the Packer but ignore a team like the Ravens. The key is balance, FA and the draft.

jmcdon00
03-17-2012, 01:04 PM
Everyone keeps screaming build thru the draft but fails to realize your team turns over every 5 years. They point to a team like the Packer but ignore a team like the Ravens. The key is balance, FA and the draft.
It is a combination of both. I think you build through the draft for a couple years, then whatever holes you have left you address in FA. It doesn't work to build your team through FA then fill holes with the draft, mainly because there are no guarantees with the draft.

singersp
03-17-2012, 01:26 PM
It is a combination of both. I think you build through the draft for a couple years, then whatever holes you have left you address in FA. It doesn't work to build your team through FA then fill holes with the draft, mainly because there are no guarantees with the draft.

Are you saying then, you were against the JA trade?

It is a combination of both, but it is not simply to build your team through the draft & plug holes through FA, nor is it build your team through FA & plug holes through the draft.

It depends on the situation your team is in financially, the desperation of the need (is it a starter or back up) and as a contender.

If you think you build through the draft for a couple years, then fill whatever holes you have left via FA, how do you accomplish that when FA happens before the draft? You may have an idea who you want to draft, but that is no guarantee you'll get that player or even fill that position. The latter tends to leave teams reaching for players that would have otherwise been drafted later only because there was a need to fill that position.

That methodology also leaves very few FA's left to chose from following the draft. You will find some decent backups there, but few if any legitimate starters that will shine.

Purple Floyd
03-18-2012, 07:29 AM
That's because everyone on their team is better than the FA at that position.

They were also contenders last year. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The Packers haven't signed a FA since something like 2007. They had a team that needed to get younger and they did it through the draft. That is a big reason why the Vikings brought in Childress the same year McCarthy was hired and one was fired while the other still has his job. Although I am pretty confused about how 3-13 was good enough for Spielman to get promoted.

I have no problem with the team not signing FA players in the initial FA frenzy and I like the philosophy of building the team through the draft. Now, that being said i don't know if we have the FO to do it right but then again if they aren't I also don't think they would do it right with FA signings either.

kevoncox
03-18-2012, 08:47 AM
The Packers haven't signed a FA since something like 2007. They had a team that needed to get younger and they did it through the draft. That is a big reason why the Vikings brought in Childress the same year McCarthy was hired and one was fired while the other still has his job. Although I am pretty confused about how 3-13 was good enough for Spielman to get promoted.

I have no problem with the team not signing FA players in the initial FA frenzy and I like the philosophy of building the team through the draft. Now, that being said i don't know if we have the FO to do it right but then again if they aren't I also don't think they would do it right with FA signings either.

Everyone forgets that we were a stone throw away from a Superbowl by use of FA. Yes we can point to the Packers who have had a great amount of Luck in their drafts and fielded a great team. However, what about the like of the Ravens. Who went out and signed Boldin because they felt they needs a legit #1 WR? Signed Mac because they needed a LT, Signed countless Cbs because they need help there to assist their Superstars. That team is always in contention.

The truth of the matter is that the league has about 3 team with amazing FOs that can build a team via the draft only. The rest of the league cannot. We can't even get a 3rd round pick to be on our team after 3 years.

singersp
03-18-2012, 09:03 AM
He will probably be the starter, why shouldn't he get starter money?
We all love Rudolph, he made some nice catches and showed soft hands, but he only caught 26 balls playing in all 16 games and starting for 8 of them. In Carlson's rookie season he caught 55 balls, and started 9 games. Carlson also had slightly better numbers at Notre Dame.
At the very least it will be a competition for playing time between the two.

Let's be careful on how we use the term "started". The stats may say Rudolph started 8 games & played in 16 (suited up to be specific), but we all know, well most of us know, in actuality he didn't see much playing time at all. Shank & Jimmy K. played the bulk of it.

From the games I watched (I missed the games from December 10 forward) almost every time the ball was thrown to him, he caught it. I think I recall him missing 1 throw. IMO, he should see a lot more playing time & probably will since both Jimmy K. & Shiancoe are gone. Lets just hope they can block. With our OL, we're going to need it & AD still can't block worth a shit.

singersp
03-18-2012, 09:35 AM
The Packers haven't signed a FA since something like 2007.

2008 Green Bay Packer FA signings
RB Justin Beaver Signed (Free Agent)
P Derrick Frost Signed (Washington Redskins)
OL Joe Toledo Signed Miami Dolphins
LB Brandon Chillar Signed (St. Louis Rams)
CB Scorpio Babers Signed (Free Agent)
ST Thomas Gafford Signed (Seattle Seahawks)

2009 Green Bay Packer FA signings
QB Chris Pizzotti Signed (Free Agent
RB Ahman Green Signed (Houston Texans)
RB Tyrell Sutton Signed (Free Agent)
WR Khalil Jones Signed (Free Agent)
TE Tom Crabtree Signed (Free Agent)
TE Devin Frischknecht Signed (Washington Redskins)
LB Robert Francois Signed (Free Agent)
LB Stryker Sulak Signed (Oakland Raiders)
CB Josh Bell Signed (Denver Broncos)
CB D.J. Clark Signed (Free Agent)
FS Matt Giordano Signed (Indianapolis Colts)

2010 Green Bay Packer FA signings
QB Graham Harrell Signed Free Agent
RB James X. Johnson Signed Free Agent
RB Dimitri Nance Signed Atlanta Falcons
WR Chastin West Signed Free Agent
TE Spencer Havner Signed Detroit Lions
TE Evan Moore Signed Cleveland Browns
OT Chris Campbell Signed Free Agent
OG Evan Dietrich-Smith Signed Free Agent
DL Howard Green Signed New York Jets
DL Jarius Wynn Signed Free Agent
LB Diyral Briggs Signed Denver Broncos
LB Robert Francois
LB Matt Wilhelm Signed San Francisco 49ers
SS Anthony Levine Signed Free Agent
SS Charlie Peprah Signed Atlanta Falcons

2011 Green Bay Packer FA signings
FB Jon Hoese Signed Free Agent
OT Herb Taylor Signed Denver Broncos Green
DL Johnny Jones Signed Miami Dolphins

NodakPaul
03-19-2012, 10:27 AM
2008 Green Bay Packer FA signings
RB Justin Beaver Signed (Free Agent)
P Derrick Frost Signed (Washington Redskins)
OL Joe Toledo Signed Miami Dolphins
LB Brandon Chillar Signed (St. Louis Rams)
CB Scorpio Babers Signed (Free Agent)
ST Thomas Gafford Signed (Seattle Seahawks)

2009 Green Bay Packer FA signings
QB Chris Pizzotti Signed (Free Agent
RB Ahman Green Signed (Houston Texans)
RB Tyrell Sutton Signed (Free Agent)
WR Khalil Jones Signed (Free Agent)
TE Tom Crabtree Signed (Free Agent)
TE Devin Frischknecht Signed (Washington Redskins)
LB Robert Francois Signed (Free Agent)
LB Stryker Sulak Signed (Oakland Raiders)
CB Josh Bell Signed (Denver Broncos)
CB D.J. Clark Signed (Free Agent)
FS Matt Giordano Signed (Indianapolis Colts)

2010 Green Bay Packer FA signings
QB Graham Harrell Signed Free Agent
RB James X. Johnson Signed Free Agent
RB Dimitri Nance Signed Atlanta Falcons
WR Chastin West Signed Free Agent
TE Spencer Havner Signed Detroit Lions
TE Evan Moore Signed Cleveland Browns
OT Chris Campbell Signed Free Agent
OG Evan Dietrich-Smith Signed Free Agent
DL Howard Green Signed New York Jets
DL Jarius Wynn Signed Free Agent
LB Diyral Briggs Signed Denver Broncos
LB Robert Francois
LB Matt Wilhelm Signed San Francisco 49ers
SS Anthony Levine Signed Free Agent
SS Charlie Peprah Signed Atlanta Falcons

2011 Green Bay Packer FA signings
FB Jon Hoese Signed Free Agent
OT Herb Taylor Signed Denver Broncos Green
DL Johnny Jones Signed Miami Dolphins

There are only one or two notable FAs in that entire list. I think PF's point is still valid.

NodakPaul
03-19-2012, 10:29 AM
Everyone forgets that we were a stone throw away from a Superbowl by use of FA.

I don't think that anyone forgot it. But going the FA route bought us exactly that - ONE year of contention. And we came close but didn't make it. And look at Washington - they break the bank every year and it gets them nowhere.

I am OK with trying it this way for a change.

bleedpurple
03-19-2012, 12:49 PM
By the time we finish building through the draft, our franchise player (AP) will be roughly 30 years old.... I'm all for building through the draft, but we could have atleast signed a starting O-lineman and a receiver... for goodness sake...

And that's "IF" our GM can draft the players we need later in the rounds that can actually help us... I'm not sure he can.... This whole team is just a disaster with no end in sight!!...

Purple Floyd
03-19-2012, 10:17 PM
2008 Green Bay Packer FA signings
RB Justin Beaver Signed (Free Agent)
P Derrick Frost Signed (Washington Redskins)
OL Joe Toledo Signed Miami Dolphins
LB Brandon Chillar Signed (St. Louis Rams)
CB Scorpio Babers Signed (Free Agent)
ST Thomas Gafford Signed (Seattle Seahawks)

2009 Green Bay Packer FA signings
QB Chris Pizzotti Signed (Free Agent
RB Ahman Green Signed (Houston Texans)
RB Tyrell Sutton Signed (Free Agent)
WR Khalil Jones Signed (Free Agent)
TE Tom Crabtree Signed (Free Agent)
TE Devin Frischknecht Signed (Washington Redskins)
LB Robert Francois Signed (Free Agent)
LB Stryker Sulak Signed (Oakland Raiders)
CB Josh Bell Signed (Denver Broncos)
CB D.J. Clark Signed (Free Agent)
FS Matt Giordano Signed (Indianapolis Colts)

2010 Green Bay Packer FA signings
QB Graham Harrell Signed Free Agent
RB James X. Johnson Signed Free Agent
RB Dimitri Nance Signed Atlanta Falcons
WR Chastin West Signed Free Agent
TE Spencer Havner Signed Detroit Lions
TE Evan Moore Signed Cleveland Browns
OT Chris Campbell Signed Free Agent
OG Evan Dietrich-Smith Signed Free Agent
DL Howard Green Signed New York Jets
DL Jarius Wynn Signed Free Agent
LB Diyral Briggs Signed Denver Broncos
LB Robert Francois
LB Matt Wilhelm Signed San Francisco 49ers
SS Anthony Levine Signed Free Agent
SS Charlie Peprah Signed Atlanta Falcons

2011 Green Bay Packer FA signings
FB Jon Hoese Signed Free Agent
OT Herb Taylor Signed Denver Broncos Green
DL Johnny Jones Signed Miami Dolphins
Yeah, I suppose if you want to throw in their practice squad and pre season roster fillers then you sre right but then again how many of that number are playing on the field during the season.

Purple Floyd
03-19-2012, 10:24 PM
Everyone forgets that we were a stone throw away from a Superbowl by use of FA. Yes we can point to the Packers who have had a great amount of Luck in their drafts and fielded a great team. However, what about the like of the Ravens. Who went out and signed Boldin because they felt they needs a legit #1 WR? Signed Mac because they needed a LT, Signed countless Cbs because they need help there to assist their Superstars. That team is always in contention.

The truth of the matter is that the league has about 3 team with amazing FOs that can build a team via the draft only. The rest of the league cannot. We can't even get a 3rd round pick to be on our team after 3 years.

Yeah, we spent all of that money and had a one year window of opportunity before the CAP hits kicked in and we started to hemorrhage players and were forced to cut or trade vets because we couldn't pay their escalated salaries.

What have those FA's gotten the Ravens? It seems to me they built their team and won a SB a decade ago with a team mostly built through the draft. Now they are trying to fill holes in FA and they can't get past the first game of the playoffs.

The common thread in all of the top 3 is they have a franchise QB, great coaching and a FO that understands building football teams. We have Zero of those 3 at this point and we could spend every nickel in the bank on overpriced free agents and that fact is not going to change. Although signing a franchise QB would be a good first step.

kevoncox
03-19-2012, 11:30 PM
Yeah, we spent all of that money and had a one year window of opportunity before the CAP hits kicked in and we started to hemorrhage players and were forced to cut or trade vets because we couldn't pay their escalated salaries.

What have those FA's gotten the Ravens? It seems to me they built their team and won a SB a decade ago with a team mostly built through the draft. Now they are trying to fill holes in FA and they can't get past the first game of the playoffs.

The common thread in all of the top 3 is they have a franchise QB, great coaching and a FO that understands building football teams. We have Zero of those 3 at this point and we could spend every nickel in the bank on overpriced free agents and that fact is not going to change. Although signing a franchise QB would be a good first step.

Wrong, we had more than a 1 year window. We had 3 solid years that were WASTED by inept QB play. Don't give me that 1 year Crap. We were a dynamic team and should have won in 2009, contested in 2008 and 2007 but we settled for MEDICORITY AT KEY POSITIONS ON THE FIELD (WR, QB etc). Even with that crap in 2008 we were 10-6 and in 2007 we were 8 and 8 behind TJack and Brooks Bollinger.

kevoncox
03-19-2012, 11:33 PM
The common thread in all of the top 3 is they have a franchise QB, great coaching and a FO that understands building football teams. We have Zero of those 3 at this point and we could spend every nickel in the bank on overpriced free agents and that fact is not going to change. Although signing a franchise QB would be a good first step.

So you admit we don't have a good front office to draft a new team but you support them in building thru the draft? Don't blame the ravens for always being competitive but not getting over the hump. I rather be in the chase every year than whatever it is we are doing.

i_bleed_purple
03-20-2012, 03:59 PM
Wrong, we had more than a 1 year window. We had 3 solid years that were WASTED by inept QB play. Don't give me that 1 year Crap. We were a dynamic team and should have won in 2009, contested in 2008 and 2007 but we settled for MEDICORITY AT KEY POSITIONS ON THE FIELD (WR, QB etc). Even with that crap in 2008 we were 10-6 and in 2007 we were 8 and 8 behind TJack and Brooks Bollinger.


Contested in 2008? How exactly?

QB: Who should we have gone with? Brees probably wasn't an option. Sure, we coudl try guys like Garcia and Carr, but there wasn't really anybody who would be a future franchise QB available to us. We were too low in the draft to pick one up and we had too many holes to trade for a guy like Cutler. Especially in 2007, coming off a 6-10 season... Contender? GTFO.

Due to being patient in 2006/2007, we got some good players and assembled a good team in 09 that just needed a QB to win. We got that, and lost due to a coaching/turnovers. 2010 comes, and we started losing players due to injuries/salary cap.

2009 (you can argue 2008) was our ONE YEAR to make a championship run. Why? Because we built the theam with free agents. If you do that, and miss your window, you go back into rebuild mode. Note teams like the Steelers, Giants, Packers, Pats, etc. seem poised to do well for years in a row. Why? Because they don't build through free agency. They sign a few key players to complete the team, but are mostly built with draftees.

kevoncox
03-20-2012, 04:41 PM
Contested in 2008? How exactly?

QB: Who should we have gone with? Brees probably wasn't an option. Sure, we coudl try guys like Garcia and Carr, but there wasn't really anybody who would be a future franchise QB available to us. We were too low in the draft to pick one up and we had too many holes to trade for a guy like Cutler. Especially in 2007, coming off a 6-10 season... Contender? GTFO.

Due to being patient in 2006/2007, we got some good players and assembled a good team in 09 that just needed a QB to win. We got that, and lost due to a coaching/turnovers. 2010 comes, and we started losing players due to injuries/salary cap.

2009 (you can argue 2008) was our ONE YEAR to make a championship run. Why? Because we built the theam with free agents. If you do that, and miss your window, you go back into rebuild mode. Note teams like the Steelers, Giants, Packers, Pats, etc. seem poised to do well for years in a row. Why? Because they don't build through free agency. They sign a few key players to complete the team, but are mostly built with draftees.

We won 10 games with Gus ]and T. Jackson. 10 freaking games. Thats a deep playoff team with Garcia easily. The Giants and Pats should be removed from your list of teams. The Gmen sign as much as they draft. They draft DEs but both their Depth at Safety is mostly due to Signings, Lb as well. The fact remains they fill their needs.

My point still remains, I am not trying to have us buy a team, however, we have serious needs. We aren't going to draft 8 guys that will start this season. They is no harm in filling positions while we build a competitive team. If you think signing a 25 year All Pro TE is a good idea, why not do the same for a real area of need....say CB/S/Lb/WR/G/T/FB

i_bleed_purple
03-20-2012, 04:47 PM
We won 10 games with Gus ]and T. Jackson. 10 freaking games. Thats a deep playoff team with Garcia easily. The Giants and Pats should be removed from your list of teams. The Gmen sign as much as they draft. They draft DEs but both their Depth at Safety is mostly due to Signings, Lb as well. The fact remains they fill their needs.
I already showed you they don't. They sign backups, but most of their impact players were all drafted with the exception of two. Pats sign a few key players, but they all come cheap. They don't spend on free agents. They draft smart, have a good scheme and get players that fit what they want to do. We don't do any of that.



My point still remains, I am not trying to have us buy a team, however, we have serious needs. We aren't going to draft 8 guys that will start this season. They is no harm in filling positions while we build a competitive team. If you think signing a 25 year All Pro TE is a good idea, why not do the same for a real area of need....say CB/S/Lb/WR/G/T/FB

And no, we aren't going to sign 8 guys that will start each other. The point of this offseason is not to become a superbowl contending team. It's to get some building blocks to build a successful franchise.

Quick question. Who should we sign if you think FA is the answer? Please, enlighten us.

I'd assume you'll say Nicks, probably Landry or Atogwe, draft Kalil, sign Bell, pick up a LB. Our cap space is gone at this point. Next year, it will be even worse. We still won't be winning games even with those signigns, so how exactly does that help us?

Purple Floyd
03-20-2012, 09:02 PM
So you admit we don't have a good front office to draft a new team but you support them in building thru the draft? Don't blame the ravens for always being competitive but not getting over the hump. I rather be in the chase every year than whatever it is we are doing.

What is so hard to understand? I am not convinced they are good enough to build through the draft but I am already convinced they can't build through FA because they already did it and they ended up with too many expiring contracts and not any cap space to sign them. They also got too old too fast. It isn't that hard to understand.

So in this case I am more eager to see them try to build a team with young players through the draft because if they prove me wrong and get it right we will have a good team for an extended time and if they fail there will be no where to hide for the whole staff from top to bottom and they can all get changed over to hopefully a better staff.

singersp
03-20-2012, 09:35 PM
Quick question. Who should we sign if you think FA is the answer? Please, enlighten us.

So you think we can replace all these players who have played during the year with the 10 picks we have on the draft? How do you plan on doing that & improving the team at the same time without adding talent via FA?

Devin Aromashodu
Greg Camarillo
Jim Kleinsasser
Visanthe Shiancoe
Anthony Herrera
Steve Hutchinson
E.J. Henderson
Erin Henderson
Kenny Onatolu
Cedric Griffin
Benny Sapp
Husain Abdullah (possibly resigning)
Tyrell Johnson

BTW, that isn't the full list of Vikings FA, this is, although some are long gone;
KFFL - 2012 NFL Free Agents (http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?option=By+Team&y=2012)

The above list also doesn't address upgrading other positions with starters on them in need of up grading. For instance, if we draft Kalil to replace Johnson (who's not a FA) at LT, it leaves 9 picks to fill all the voids.

That is of course counting on all 10 draft picks to pan out/be better than who we lost.

On a side note, looking at all those FA, it's hard to believe it only freed up $28 mil in cap space after signing a few FA of our own.

i_bleed_purple
03-21-2012, 12:25 AM
So you think we can replace all these players who have played during the year with the 10 picks we have on the draft? How do you plan on doing that & improving the team at the same time without adding talent via FA?

Devin Aromashodu
Greg Camarillo
Jim Kleinsasser
Visanthe Shiancoe
Anthony Herrera
Steve Hutchinson
E.J. Henderson
Erin Henderson
Kenny Onatolu
Cedric Griffin
Benny Sapp
Husain Abdullah (possibly resigning)
Tyrell Johnson

BTW, that isn't the full list of Vikings FA, this is, although some are long gone;
KFFL - 2012 NFL Free Agents (http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?option=By+Team&y=2012)

The above list also doesn't address upgrading other positions with starters on them in need of up grading. For instance, if we draft Kalil to replace Johnson (who's not a FA) at LT, it leaves 9 picks to fill all the voids.

That is of course counting on all 10 draft picks to pan out/be better than who we lost.

On a side note, looking at all those FA, it's hard to believe it only freed up $28 mil in cap space after signing a few FA of our own.

Alright mr. football GM guru, since you obviously have this all planned out. How do you think we're turning this team into a contender in one year?

We're Not. What we will do, sign some players as depth players, re-sign a couple players (hopefully Erin Henderson and Aromashodu), and draft some players. Bring in some UFA's, a couple of which will make the team. We'll still suck, but ideally, we'll draft well and have three future starters, and four or so really solid backups. Next year, if there's a FA or two that would be great additions, super. Rinse and repeat.

We should not be signing any FA who happens to come our way. That's how teams get in cap trouble. All the good teams draft the core of their team, and sign a couple key players who fit what they do well. The rest of their FA signings are low-key depth players.

What is so hard to understand about this? Yes, we have a ton of holes, and yes, we'll sign a few more players, but don't expect any starters. (or should I say starting-quality players, we all know they'll invetiabely end up as starters)

singersp
03-21-2012, 06:54 AM
There are only one or two notable FAs in that entire list. I think PF's point is still valid.

I don't.

His claim was GB hadn't drafted anyone since 2007. Clearly they did. Several of them in fact.

It's easy to sit back after the fact & say only a few of them are big name players, but what was GB's intent for those players when they first signed them?

Whether they became legit starters or is irrelevant. You can't say they were all signed with the expectation that none of them would become starters & they were all POS fillers until the players they drafted, whose NFL play was unknown, would come in & replace them. Surely GB would have loved for more of those FA's to become legit starters.

Let's also not forget how many of their own FA's that they re-signed that weren't even listed. They didn't simply let them all walk & sign elsewhere and replace them with younger draftees. They resigned them.

The thing is with GB, if they had a hole to fill or were short on depth they addressed it thru both FA & the draft. They weren't necessarily always big name FA players, but the point is, they filled the voids.

No one here is saying the Vikings need to fill all of their holes & depth shortage with Pro Bowl caliber FA's, but there are some key positions that you would like to have legitimate starters in them.

There are also holes that simply need filling period.

We lost 2 starting guards, 2 starting LB's & 2 other LB's who saw playing time. We also lost 2 starting CB's that have been starters, 2 starting TE's, a starting WR & a backup WR. We also have 3 SS in FA, but do have an abundance of S on the roster.

That list doesn't include the glaring needs we have at LT & depth at WR.

So far in FA, we addressed 1, count them, 1 of those major holes & we didn't upgrade from what we had.

What are the chances of filling all of those remaining positions with younger talent via the draft with just 10 picks?

Rebuilding via the draft, how many years do you feel it will take to acquire enough drafted players to reach the level of talent of all the vets we lost?

Purple Floyd
03-21-2012, 07:15 AM
I don't.

His claim was GB hadn't drafted anyone since 2007. Clearly they did. Several of them in fact.

It's easy to sit back after the fact & say only a few of them are big name players, but what was GB's intent for those players when they first signed them?

Whether they became legit starters or is irrelevant. You can't say they were all signed with the expectation that none of them would become starters & they were all POS fillers until the players they drafted, whose NFL play was unknown, would come in & replace them. Surely GB would have loved for more of those FA's to become legit starters.

Let's also not forget how many of their own FA's that they re-signed that weren't even listed. They didn't simply let them all walk & sign elsewhere and replace them with younger draftees. They resigned them.

The thing is with GB, if they had a hole to fill or were short on depth they addressed it thru both FA & the draft. They weren't necessarily always big name FA players, but the point is, they filled the voids.

No one here is saying the Vikings need to fill all of their holes & depth shortage with Pro Bowl caliber FA's, but there are some key positions that you would like to have legitimate starters in them.

There are also holes that simply need filling period.

We lost 2 starting guards, 2 starting LB's & 2 other LB's who saw playing time. We also lost 2 starting CB's that have been starters, 2 starting TE's, a starting WR & a backup WR. We also have 3 SS in FA, but do have an abundance of S on the roster.

That list doesn't include the glaring needs we have at LT & depth at WR.

So far in FA, we addressed 1, count them, 1 of those major holes & we didn't upgrade from what we had.

What are the chances of filling all of those remaining positions with younger talent via the draft with just 10 picks?

Rebuilding via the draft, how many years do you feel it will take to acquire enough drafted players to reach the level of talent of all the vets we lost?

OK.

Then lets just go out and fill as many holes in the starting roster with FA's as GB has since 2007. That should really change things.........

And how is what you are proposing anything similar to what GB has done during that time?

Are you proposing we go out and sign a bunch of FA guys nobody has heard of that will never see the field like the list you provided? You know, guys like former point guards that played arena football? If that is the case you should be ecstatic.

singersp
03-21-2012, 07:35 AM
Alright mr. football GM guru, since you obviously have this all planned out. How do you think we're turning this team into a contender in one year?

We're Not. What we will do, sign some players as depth players, re-sign a couple players (hopefully Erin Henderson and Aromashodu), and draft some players. Bring in some UFA's, a couple of which will make the team. We'll still suck, but ideally, we'll draft well and have three future starters, and four or so really solid backups. Next year, if there's a FA or two that would be great additions, super. Rinse and repeat.

We should not be signing any FA who happens to come our way. That's how teams get in cap trouble. All the good teams draft the core of their team, and sign a couple key players who fit what they do well. The rest of their FA signings are low-key depth players.

What is so hard to understand about this? Yes, we have a ton of holes, and yes, we'll sign a few more players, but don't expect any starters. (or should I say starting-quality players, we all know they'll invetiabely end up as starters)

I never once said signing FA's would make us a contender in 1 year. Quit putting words I never said in my mouth.

What I'm saying is that we need to address needs both via FA & the draft.

If you let 4 LB's walk, you should be at least looking for 1 or 2 of those LB's via FA.

Spielman signed a RB.

When you cut two starting Guards, you should be at least looking at one replacement via FA.

Spielman didn't sign or look at any guards to replace them.

When you let 2 CB's go you should be at least looking at FA for a possible replacement.

Spielman answered that need by signing a 5'10" basketball point guard who never played football in college, not to a 1 year contract, but to a 3 year contract. Then he hung a DB label on him. His only football experience at all was 1 year in a minor arena football league.

So how much confidence do you have that all our real needs will be addressed during the draft?

You said 3 of our draft picks may pan out. That doesn't even fill the voids of the talent we lost.

True, top notch FA's will merit bigger salaries, which means a bigger cap hit, but what many people who claim "build thru the draft" fail to recognize is that players that are drafted cost a lot of money also.

I think it's safe to say that AD, who we drafted, is a big hit to our cap space.

I think it's safe to say that Greenway, who we drafted, comes with a hefty price tag as well.

GB built thru the draft. How big of a hit is Rodgers salary on their cap? What about Matthews? They were able to resign him, but that's not true of all draft picks. How about all the salaries of all the other Pro Bowl players that they drafted?

Once draft picks become FA's, they are free to go wherever they want & play elsewhere. Case in point, they just lost their starting center via FA.

Isn't Charles Woodson, a key player of their DB a FA signing?

singersp
03-21-2012, 07:53 AM
OK.

Then lets just go out and fill as many holes in the starting roster with FA's as GB has since 2007. That should really change things.........

And how is what you are proposing anything similar to what GB has done during that time?

Are you proposing we go out and sign a bunch of FA guys nobody has heard of that will never see the field like the list you provided? You know, guys like former point guards that played arena football? If that is the case you should be ecstatic.

Nope, I didn't say sign a bunch of no name players no one heard of to fill the voids. I said sign players to fill the voids of the players we lost that are capable of being legit starters & not sign players to positions that aren't in dire need. They don't have to be at the top of the FA charts at all, but they certainly shouldn't be bottom feeders of the charts like Spielman is looking at.

What you keep missing is the FA's teams like GB re-sign. Of their starting roster how many of them are draft picks that have been re-signed when they became FA's?

How many of the Vikings draft picks since 2007 have we re-signed when they became FA's & are starting on offense or defense for the Vikings right now?

Vikestand
03-24-2012, 08:56 AM
Didn't waste my time reading the other 17 pages but I'll throw my 2-cents in anyways. Not sure I would want them to overpay on some of these guys out there now. And I don't want them picking up people who aren't much of an upgrade at our positions. I think we can all agree that this year won't be about making the playoffs unless of a miracle, pretty much develope Ponder. Next year we will have more cap room and a better understanding going forward on this project of rebuilding.


Anyways that is just my own personal opinion.