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Purple Floyd
12-04-2011, 03:17 PM
Well, we did what we needed to to keep our pick near the top of the draft.

Freakout
12-04-2011, 03:22 PM
Cedric Griffin needs to be taken out back and shot.

MulletMullitia
12-04-2011, 03:24 PM
We can't blame this loss on Ponder. Did he give them the go ahead points? Yes. But he also kept us in the game. 21 more carries for Toby, and he still couldn't break the century mark. On top of an embarrassing coverage performance and zero pressure on the QB from our defense. Christian Ponder is the future of this football team. We gotta stick with him. There are going to be some big mistakes, but there will also be some signs of greatness. So far, we've seen equal shares of both.

Stonecoldet3
12-04-2011, 03:25 PM
Cedric Griffin needs to be taken out back and shot.

I do believe our entire secondary made Tim Tebow look like Aaron Rodgers. Worst secondary in the NFL ever imo. I mean honestly when was the last time our defense backs had a turnover?!?

MulletMullitia
12-04-2011, 03:27 PM
I wish the honey badger could declare for the draft this year! He would the perfect spark that this defense desperately needs.

singersp
12-04-2011, 03:32 PM
We can't blame this loss on Ponder.

LOL!

Just 2 INTs that lead to 10 points plus a 3rd down throw to no one late in the game which made us settle for 3 instead of 7.

We lose by 3.

Yep can't blame this loss on Ponder at all. *sarcasm off*

kevoncox
12-04-2011, 03:32 PM
Sanford was at fault.

BBQ Platypus
12-04-2011, 03:33 PM
I'll never understand why teams in the situation the Vikings were in at the end of this game don't just half-ass it and let them in for the touchdown. They're not going to miss the chip shot - just let them in and give yourself enough time to tie the game. We could have had the ball with about a minute left and two timeouts. Instead we let them run the clock all the way down and kick the winning field goal that any functional human being over the age of 12 could have made. Brilliant strategy, Les.

It's not just today with the Vikings, either. Almost nobody thinks to do this. Why the hell not? Is it out of some stupid sense of pride?

Freakout
12-04-2011, 03:33 PM
LOL!

Just 2 INTs that lead to 10 points plus a 3rd down throw to no one late in the game which made us settle for 3 instead of 7.

We lose by 3.

Yep can't blame this loss on Ponder at all. *sarcasm off*

He played his part but the defense was worse.

Reignman
12-04-2011, 03:37 PM
I do believe our entire secondary made Tim Tebow look like Aaron Rodgers. Worst secondary in the NFL ever imo. I mean honestly when was the last time our defense backs had a turnover?!?It can't be said enough, we do have the worst secondary ever. We gave up 28 points to Tebow in ONE f'ing HALF. I didn't even care about the loss, but now I have to suffer through another week of Tebow bullshit. I can't take it anymore.

The offense finally shows up for a game and vs a good defense, but our defense takes a huge 2nd half dump. Frazier needs to be fired for our 2nd half performances alone. Seriously wtf is he doing to this team in the locker room at half? He's like the opposite of inspirational.

singersp
12-04-2011, 03:37 PM
Well, we did what we needed to to keep our pick near the top of the draft.

Who is the top prospect after Luck?

Purple_Jesus
12-04-2011, 03:41 PM
Kalil. I'm really hoping we take him over Blackmon. Ponder has shown how good he can be when he has time to throw. Me made Aromashadu look like Andre Johnson today.

Freakout
12-04-2011, 03:41 PM
Who is the top prospect after Luck?

LT Matt Kalil.

Lippythelion69
12-04-2011, 03:42 PM
I do believe our entire secondary made Tim Tebow look like Aaron Rodgers. Worst secondary in the NFL ever imo. I mean honestly when was the last time our defense backs had a turnover?!?
Be careful I've been called a troll for pointing out how many missing pieces we have......
And I think Ponder looked good today........but .....? And I've been harping about the secondary for yrs. My old posts never crossed over to the updated site...I don't care. The new site rocks

Vikestand
12-04-2011, 03:42 PM
We get out-coached after every half this season it seems.Ponder is to blame for the INT's, but i'm tired of putting blame on individual players anymore. This team is pathetic. Frazier, though I like his personality, needs to go. We need a fresh slate that is for sure. Clean house.

Lippythelion69
12-04-2011, 03:45 PM
We get out-coached after every half this season it seems.Ponder is to blame for the INT's, but i'm tired of putting blame on individual players anymore. This team is pathetic. Frazier, though I like his personality, needs to go. We need a fresh slate that is for sure. Clean house.
Wasted 7secs. Taking TO in 2nd qt. Before 2min warning...did't..hurt...but.......The next one did....

Culpepper_4717
12-04-2011, 03:46 PM
Taking out Rudolph and Harvin in the red zone on 3rd down, and putting in Joe Webb at WR was pure genius!

Johnson14
12-04-2011, 03:55 PM
Taking out Rudolph and Harvin in the red zone on 3rd down, and putting in Joe Webb at WR was pure genius!

:clap:

Reignman
12-04-2011, 03:56 PM
I'll never understand why teams in the situation the Vikings were in at the end of this game don't just half-ass it and let them in for the touchdown.I was thinking that too, but then I realized our HC is Frazier. Not to mention this is the 2nd game this year where he forgot to use timeouts at the end to preserve time for the offense. The failures keep adding up for Childress 2.0.

And Ponder does share part of the blame for this loss. Our horrible secondary sure tried to lose this all on their own, but Ponder had plenty of time to drive us into FG range and be a hero but threw a pick on the 1st play. Inexcusable even for a rookie. He may have had a huge game statistically, but he cost us when it mattered the most.

Johnson14
12-04-2011, 03:56 PM
Who is the top prospect after Luck?

Think OT Kali is up there

Reignman
12-04-2011, 03:59 PM
Taking out Rudolph and Harvin in the red zone on 3rd down, and putting in Joe Webb at WR was pure genius!Indeed, yet another head scratcher. Frazier/Musgrave is starting to look like the dumb and dumberer version of Childress/Bevell.

ConnecticutViking
12-04-2011, 04:01 PM
I don't care about Ponder's play...he's a rookie, even Toby ran hard. Harbin, pure Beast. Our secondary Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucccccccccccccks! They are the worst! Guys wide open, blown assignments. They Suuuuuuuuuuuuuckkkkkkkkk! I can't watch them anymore. Not just our CB's, but our safeties are clueless!

RK.
12-04-2011, 04:01 PM
Our lack of a secondary lost this game for us. Once again let me point out that Ponder is a ROOKIE. This was the 6th game of his entire NFL carreer. He passed for nearly 400 yds and 3 TD's . Yes he threw into coverage and got picked off....but.....but... he is a ROOKIE thats what ROOKIES do.

I am just happy we were in the game to the end for a change.

Lippythelion69
12-04-2011, 04:03 PM
How about are special teams....on returns?.. If it ain't Devin Hester it'sUncle Fester...this has been an on going problem for yrs..."

12purplepride28
12-04-2011, 04:07 PM
Sick of our awful secondary. We should've taken Amukamara instead of Ponder. We'd still suck enough to get either Luck or Barkley. We need a Kalil and to pick up Desean in FA. Rudolph is going to be a beast, and yes singer, this loss isn't on Harvin. Sure he threw two picks, but he wasn't giving up 28 points to the garbage tebow offense. He obviously played his part, but what do you expect with a terrible O-line and aromashadu as a top WR.

This loss was way more on our defense than anyone else. Harvin is a god and I feel bad that he's being wasted on our crap team.

NotAPonderBeliever
12-04-2011, 04:15 PM
Our secondary has to be the worst in history... I know everyone is clamoring for Kalil for good reason, but with the real possibility that Chris Cook might get released and Winfield obviously on the
downside of his career...I hope the vikings consider drafting Morris Claiborne, Hes the type of CB
who will make us 10 times better with his presence.

NotAPonderBeliever
12-04-2011, 04:17 PM
Our lack of a secondary lost this game for us. Once again let me point out that Ponder is a ROOKIE. This was the 6th game of his entire NFL carreer. He passed for nearly 400 yds and 3 TD's . Yes he threw into coverage and got picked off....but.....but... he is a ROOKIE thats what ROOKIES do.

I am just happy we were in the game to the end for a change.

The Vikings have been in every game but 2 this season...And Ponder has cost us 4 of them with
mistakes that not even a rookie should make. He makes some great throws, but he also makes some really stupid throws like the one today.

Freakout
12-04-2011, 04:25 PM
The Vikings have been in every game by 2 this season...And Ponder has cost us 4 of them with
mistakes that not even a rookie should make. He makes some great throws, but he also makes some really stupid throws like the one today.

Total bullshit.

I am so sick of Viking fans that think a fucking rookie quarterback isn't supposed to make mistakes.

I swear our fanbase would have been calling for the head of a rookie Payton Manning had we drafted him. No patience to allow a rookie to grow.

i_bleed_purple
12-04-2011, 04:26 PM
Wow. Just wow.

QB: C-. Yeah, he put up 380 yards. whoopidee doo. The guy can still not read a defense. Two bad picks thrown to nobody. One for a pick-6. Other set the Broncos up for the game winner. He had a few very nice accurate throws, and alot more poor ones. About 80 of his yards come from Percy Harvin's YAC. Add in getting careless with the ball on that fumble, and yes, I'll say it. A BAD performance from him. Yards mean nothing if you piss away the win in the end. Yes, our D didn't do their job, but Ponder had many opportunities to lock this game up. He choked.

RB: C+ Gerhart has the acceleration of a tectonic plate. Had a few nice carries when we could open a hole for him, but he seems like the second version of "If you need 2 yards, I'll get you 3. If you need 4 yards, I'll get you 3". Booker didn't fare much better for us. We miss AP.

FB: B- Only reason I put this up here, is to point out a couple nice downfield blocks D'Imperio had to spring TD's, and to point out, that yes, the FB is still relevent in the league today, despite the claims by certain individuals that it is not. Did you see how the Broncos could pound it down our throats from the I?

OL: D Man, we are bad. Ponder was getting killed out there, no room to run, nothing.

WR: B+ Loved what I saw from some guys. Bailed out Ponder big time on a few catches. Aromashodu with some very nice acrobatic catches, Percy being Percy. Even Burton had a few key receptions.

TE: B+ That Rudolph TD catch was fantastic. Love seeing those kind of plays from our big boys. Still baffles me why we don't play him more often.

DE: B- Some nice plays, some good pressures. Hard for anyone to really contain Tebow on the ground, but for the most part they did a decent job

DT: C- missed a couple sacks, and I'm not sure what the hell happened in the third quarter, but that play vs. the run was pitiful.

LB: C- On average the LB's line up 2-6 yards behind the DL. McGahee averaged almost 6 yards per carry. Care to explain how? That falls on the LB's too. Add in EJ coming out of position on one TD play, just not good.

CB: D- I swear, I fucking swear if anybody tries to tell me our Secondary isn't an issue I will not respect anything coming from their mouth again. Ced needs to go, Burton isn't much better. I get that at times, like the commentators were saying that there was miscommunication between the CB/S in the cover 2, but not every time. They are just slow and bad.

S: F+ Even worse. Slow getting into position, slow to support the CB.

K: A Boomed some kickoffs, hit the FG when needed. Good solid job by Longwell

P: A As usual, Kluwe is our most consistent player.

KR: D. Have I mentioned lately how little I like Sherels? Until late in the game (I'm guessing the coaches told him to stop being an idiot) the guy refuses to fair catch, and will return from 8 yards deep in the endzone. Despite actually being fairly quick, he doesn't look fast at all, and doesn't seem to have teriffic carrying skills. Not really sure why we use him instead of Booker or Harvin.

Coverage: D When Longwell is having to make consecutive tackles on kickoffs, that's brutal. His kicks are fine, our coverage today was not.

Coaching: B- I still don't like alot of what I'm seeing out of Musgrave. A few great calls on the Harvin TD's, but some really odd ones. And I don' tlike getting cute on 2nd and long when we're having a good drive. Things like that just kill drives and leave us having to convert 3rd and long.

Whoever was calling the D needs to be shot.

i_bleed_purple
12-04-2011, 04:33 PM
The Vikings have been in every game but 2 this season...And Ponder has cost us 4 of them with
mistakes that not even a rookie should make. He makes some great throws, but he also makes some really stupid throws like the one today.

Agree to a degree.

I don't think that we shoudl go in a different direction. I DO think Ponder should not be starting though. He's making poor mistake after poor mistake, and costing us games. McNabb didn't cost us games, but he didn't go win us any either.

Ponder obviously has talent, and he's got potential, but he's not ready to lead a pro football team, especially one in that state the Vikings are in.

NotAPonderBeliever
12-04-2011, 04:48 PM
As good as Ponders stats may looked his 3 turnovers accounted for a potentially 18 point turnaround had everything gone our way...But if I'm averaging out the situations it was more like 13

The 1st one..Was a Pick 6 by Haggan on a lazy pass and a laughably poor read by ponder in which Haggan undercut the throw. -7

The 2nd one...Where Ponder fumbled in the red zone where we could have atleast gotten 3 points
out of that situation -3

And obviously the 3rd one with an inexplicably dumb pass that lead to a GW field thus casting
the Tebow love fest that is really starting to bother me... I won't watch ESPN for a week. -3

Hes done some things to kind of make me believe hes got the ability to be a winning QB in this league with a little more seasoning since they day we drafted him, but all we heard when he was
drafted was "how smart he was", and "how quickly he picks up a playbook, and reads defenses"
Wow I've seen very little of that so far.

jargomcfargo
12-04-2011, 05:03 PM
Total bullshit.

I am so sick of Viking fans that think a fucking rookie quarterback isn't supposed to make mistakes.

I swear our fanbase would have been calling for the head of a rookie Payton Manning had we drafted him. No patience to allow a rookie to grow.

+1

i_bleed_purple
12-04-2011, 05:05 PM
Total bullshit.

I am so sick of Viking fans that think a fucking rookie quarterback isn't supposed to make mistakes.

I swear our fanbase would have been calling for the head of a rookie Payton Manning had we drafted him. No patience to allow a rookie to grow.


He should be growing on the bench. Like I said when TJ was our QB, and like I said when we drafted Ponder. He's obviously not ready to start. He has not yet won us a game, but did manage to cost us four.

Purple_Jesus
12-04-2011, 05:21 PM
Total bullshit.

I am so sick of Viking fans that think a fucking rookie quarterback isn't supposed to make mistakes.

I swear our fanbase would have been calling for the head of a rookie Payton Manning had we drafted him. No patience to allow a rookie to grow.

I agree. People on this site are starting to piss me off. They expect a rookie quarterback (with no offensive line OR training camp) to play like he's fucking Tom Brady. I'm not even too confident that half the people here know the first thing about football. Sick of people constantly pissing around like "Cut Peterson, he only rushed for 90 yards today". Or "Cut JA, he didn't get a sack today". Now it's "Cut Ponder, he only passed for almost 400 yards and scored 3 TDs today". HE'S A FUCKING ROOKIE WITH LITTLE TO NO SUPPORTING CAST. CUT HIM SOME FUCKING SLACK. If you're only here to bag on the things that players did wrong and have zero insight to what anybody did right than you can go fuck yourself. The world needs less negative assholes like you. You don't think Ponder is kicking himself for that int at the end of the game? You don't think he's going to learn from it? IT'S CALLED BEING NEW TO SOMETHING. EVERYBODY IS ALWAYS NEW TO SOMETHING AT ONE POINT. Hell, it was against one of the best defenses in the league. Stop your bitching and be thankful we have someone who has some promise. Oh wait, no he doesn't because he made some mistakes in the first 4 starts in his career. Give me a fucking break. You make me sick.

snowinapril
12-04-2011, 05:22 PM
It's all good!

Seriously, we are a team that is rebuilding the next few years.

We could use a top 3 pick in this draft.

Ponder looked like a rookie, still looked better than Rivers has looked in a few games this season. Ponder was working with Harvin, Aroshamadu (sp) and Burton. Harvin hasn't been the primary WR all season. Look at the game Harvin has when we use him primarily as a WR.

I liked this game except for the turnovers. We played a solid defense and scored over 30 points. We didn't even have AP on the field.

-Harvin is a WR and the OC should stop taking downs and plays from AP.
-Gerhart is only to play when AP can't, keep AP on the field all three downs.
-Ponder has some growing to do, he did show some guts playing hurt. I think this is the first game that he has played that we knew he would have to throw going in to the game. The Broncos run defense is pretty good and AP was out of the game with an injury.
-I love our rookie TE, Rudolf. I wish we used him more.
-"Gerald" (according to Brian Billick) Allen is an awesome DE, makes plays week after week.
-Webb got screwed on that offensive PI, but Harvin made up for it on the next play.
-Now I am wishing we would have scrapped Frasier and the Tampa-Two defense when we had the chance, not that I don't like Frasier, just it would have been a good time to bring in a new philosophy on D.

Vikestand
12-04-2011, 05:33 PM
Now I remember why I have stayed away from the site.

i_bleed_purple
12-04-2011, 05:33 PM
One more point to the game. The announcers were brutal. Billick especially. How many times I heard about "Gerald" Allen and Cedric "Griffith" making plays..... Brutal.

snowinapril
12-04-2011, 05:33 PM
Our Defense allowed them to get 28 points. Our QB gave them 7. Yes it would have been nice if they didn't get those extra 7 points, but the defense still let this Tebow offense score 28 points.

Can't blame this on the QB alone even if he did have 3 turnovers.

snowinapril
12-04-2011, 05:36 PM
One more point to the game. The announcers were brutal. Billick especially. How many times I heard about "Gerald" Allen and Cedric "Griffith" making plays..... Brutal.

Gerald gets no respect!

Reignman
12-04-2011, 05:54 PM
I think he should be starting now, I have no problem with that decision. It's the best way to learn and it's worked for a lot of other guys in recent years. Having said that, I don't think just because he's a rookie he gets a pass from criticism when he makes bad decisions. Those were some mighty dumb INT's he's been throwing lately. It's definitely premature to pull the plug on him or panic, but yeah he shouldn't be off limits to criticism either. It's refreshing to finally see us try to develop a QB with promise for once, but I'm still going to ride him until he stops making dumb mistakes.

Besides, with his knack of choking late in games and on crucial drives, he seems to fit right in with this franchise. Haha yeah I know, I went too far with that one. We're looking at 2-14, our worst season ever, it's how I deal with the pain.

battleaxe4cheese
12-04-2011, 06:26 PM
Wow, that was fun. We got Tebowed! I am really starting to wonder about the coaching abilities of Leslie and co, Why is it we always find a way to lose? Our secondary got lit up by Tim Tebow? Huh?
Our linebackers suck and our safeties and corners shouldn't even be in the league. We are bad on so many levels it's shocking. Our Oline is probably the worst in the league.

Everyone who is saying Ponder is sucking it up should take a deep breath after you extract your head from your arse. What do you expect this kid to do? Who is he suppose to throw the ball to other than Percy? He has .4 seconds to throw the fricken ball if it isn't a roll out or play action. Give the guy some credit. It's freakin amazing he was still on the field at the end of the game.

i_bleed_purple
12-04-2011, 06:32 PM
Wow, that was fun. We got Tebowed! I am really starting to wonder about the coaching abilities of Leslie and co, Why is it we always find a way to lose? Our secondary got lit up by Tim Tebow? Huh?
Our linebackers suck and our safeties and corners shouldn't even be in the league. We are bad on so many levels it's shocking. Our Oline is probably the worst in the league.

Everyone who is saying Ponder is sucking it up should take a deep breath after you extract your head from your arse. What do you expect this kid to do?
Not throw bad picks like that? Both weren't even close. No excuses. It's not like a defender made a great play on a ball, or a receiver tipped the ball up and was picked, they were straight between the numbers to a defender. He locks into one receiver, and does not make reads. THat part is inexcusable.

Especially the one at the end of the game. Just as the announcers were saying "Maybe run the ball here or a couple short completions, but the last thing you want to do is...... Intercepted by Denver defense." Musgrave has to communicate with him, make sure he knows not to make stupid throws like that, but Ponder also has to know better.

snowinapril
12-04-2011, 06:35 PM
Wow, that was fun. We got Tebowed! I am really starting to wonder about the coaching abilities of Leslie and co, Why is it we always find a way to lose? Our secondary got lit up by Tim Tebow? Huh?
Our linebackers suck and our safeties and corners shouldn't even be in the league. We are bad on so many levels it's shocking. Our Oline is probably the worst in the league.

Everyone who is saying Ponder is sucking it up should take a deep breath after you extract your head from your arse. What do you expect this kid to do? Who is he suppose to throw the ball to other than Percy? He has .4 seconds to throw the fricken ball if it isn't a roll out or play action. Give the guy some credit. It's freakin amazing he was still on the field at the end of the game.

I like Greenway and EJ, but Erin has to go.

We all know we need secondary help.

The question is going to be what we take in the first round. We could really use a 6-2 corner with speed, not sure if there is one in this year's draft. I think that our D line is decent and we can go with out changes there.

Ponder is making decisions under fire.

Purple Floyd
12-04-2011, 06:37 PM
He should be growing on the bench. Like I said when TJ was our QB, and like I said when we drafted Ponder. He's obviously not ready to start. He has not yet won us a game, but did manage to cost us four.

The bench teaches you shit. The experience he is getting this year( Provided he stays healthy and doesn't suffer a catastrophic injury) is going to pay off in spades next year if he is the QB we want him to be. If he does not learn from these mistakes and they end up becoming a pattern then that pattern will be obvious earlier and the team can move on.

Reignman
12-04-2011, 06:41 PM
I thought the OL actually played decent today. They gave CP time to throw for 380 and somehow managed to open up holes big enough to get Toby "Slo-Mo" Gerhart 91 rushing. On the bright side, at least we don't have Caleb Hanie lol.

snowinapril
12-04-2011, 06:42 PM
Not throw bad picks like that? Both weren't even close. No excuses. It's not like a defender made a great play on a ball, or a receiver tipped the ball up and was picked, they were straight between the numbers to a defender. He locks into one receiver, and does not make reads. THat part is inexcusable.

Especially the one at the end of the game. Just as the announcers were saying "Maybe run the ball here or a couple short completions, but the last thing you want to do is...... Intercepted by Denver defense." Musgrave has to communicate with him, make sure he knows not to make stupid throws like that, but Ponder also has to know better.

Ya, it was stupid, the defender saw him looking upfield and stepped back off his own guy and into the throwing lane of the other WR. It was a good play by the defender to be looking at the QB. It was bad to telegraph that play looking at it the whole way. Ponder thought that the front defender would follow his guy and not drop back. Oh well, there are too many teams at 4-8 to get mixed up in that bunch, the loss was good in that aspect. Nobody likes losing, I would have loved to see Ponder take the team down the field and I am trying to look at the positives in this whole situation.

i_bleed_purple
12-04-2011, 06:50 PM
at least we don't have Caleb Hanie lol.

There's always a bright side to any situation!

battleaxe4cheese
12-04-2011, 07:05 PM
Not throw bad picks like that? Both weren't even close. No excuses. It's not like a defender made a great play on a ball, or a receiver tipped the ball up and was picked, they were straight between the numbers to a defender. He locks into one receiver, and does not make reads. THat part is inexcusable.

Especially the one at the end of the game. Just as the announcers were saying "Maybe run the ball here or a couple short completions, but the last thing you want to do is...... Intercepted by Denver defense." Musgrave has to communicate with him, make sure he knows not to make stupid throws like that, but Ponder also has to know better.

Don't get me wrong, I think he made some boneheaded throws that he should of never made. I'm not defending his poor decisions. What I am defending is his environment that the decisions have to be made in. The guy has no time to go through his reads and make a decision. QB's don't have the luxury of much time anyway, but in his case it's even less. Couple that with the fact that receivers don't get open other than Percy.

I am not defending his bad plays when he makes them, which he does but I am defending the fact that he's playing behind the worse Oline in the league and probably the worst receiving corps in the league.

I guess what I'm trying to say is he's making dumb mistakes, but also making so good throws. Our season has been done for a while now, and yes I would like to win, I would rather he learned and made the majority of his stupid mistakes this year than next year or when we are legitimate contenders.

BBQ Platypus
12-04-2011, 07:13 PM
Not throw bad picks like that? Both weren't even close. No excuses. It's not like a defender made a great play on a ball, or a receiver tipped the ball up and was picked, they were straight between the numbers to a defender. He locks into one receiver, and does not make reads. THat part is inexcusable.

Especially the one at the end of the game. Just as the announcers were saying "Maybe run the ball here or a couple short completions, but the last thing you want to do is...... Intercepted by Denver defense." Musgrave has to communicate with him, make sure he knows not to make stupid throws like that, but Ponder also has to know better.

It's been said before, but he's a rookie quarterback. This is what a rookie quarterback on a bad team plays like. Flashes of solid play punctuated by baffling mistakes (see also Manning, Peyton, and Newton, Cameron).

Bitch all you want, but that's the fucking reality. When you put your rookie QB out there, you generally are hoping that the veterans will help carry him, like Matt Ryan or Ben Roethlisberger's teammates did. But AP's out, and apart from Harvin and Shiancoe, we've got fuck all on this offense. Certainly not an offensive line. All you can do is throw him out there to take his lumps and get some notches on his belt. No rookie quarterback can be expected to do more than show promise under these circumstances, which Ponder has done unless you want to put your blinders on and focus only on the mistakes.

The best thing about rookie quarterbacks is that one day they will become veteran quarterbacks. They become veteran quarterbacks by playing in football games. Do you really think he's going to learn anything from watching Joe Webb? Hell, do you honestly think Webb gives us a better chance to win? At this point in the season, who cares? There is no benefit whatsoever in benching Ponder.

This wasn't a good game by Ponder, but hopefully, as he learns, it will be a sign of good games to come. We know he can pass for yardage (and it wasn't all or even mostly YAC, so you can cram that counterargument up your ass). He needs to get it under control. The way to do that is for him to play more.

purpledoom
12-04-2011, 07:22 PM
I thought the OL actually played decent today. They gave CP time to throw for 380 and somehow managed to open up holes big enough to get Toby "Slo-Mo" Gerhart 91 rushing. On the bright side, at least we don't have Caleb Hanie lol.

Ponder got killed in the first half. And they couldn't seem to get Toby room to run. Someone must have put a boot up thier ass at half time. Because I will agree they played much better in the second.

snowinapril
12-04-2011, 07:32 PM
Ponder was 29 of 47 = 61.7% for 381 yards. 3 TDs

The turnovers killed.

TheAnimal93
12-04-2011, 07:34 PM
I was wondering if anyone thought it was a bad call on the second pick? That play call is so predictable late in a game. How many times have there been pick 6's on that play? To either side. Ive never liked that play in that situation.
Everyone else has beat the dead horse. the secondary has been out to pasture all season.

i_bleed_purple
12-04-2011, 07:50 PM
I was wondering if anyone thought it was a bad call on the second pick? That play call is so predictable late in a game. How many times have there been pick 6's on that play? To either side. Ive never liked that play in that situation.
Everyone else has beat the dead horse. the secondary has been out to pasture all season.

Absolutely was. We had about 2 mins to drive 50 yards for a FG. No reason for those longer passes. s Something safe, and if we have to punt, then we punt.

CanuckVikereborn
12-04-2011, 07:54 PM
I haven't posted here in a while because there hasn't been much to comment on this season....however....I just couldn't keep my mouth closed after watching the absolute pitiful performance by the secondary once again...in particular by Jamarca Sanford. He is, by far, the WORST safety in the league. He can't cover....can't tackle and hardly ever knows where to go on coverage as was evident in allowing the Broncos to take this victory. Yes, Ponder through some bad picks...but the game was in hand until the Broncos figured out that all they have to do is throw the ball deep on us. Lots of other issues on this team, but Sanford is absolutely brutal

jrjohn
12-04-2011, 09:23 PM
I agree. People on this site are starting to piss me off. They expect a rookie quarterback (with no offensive line OR training camp) to play like he's fucking Tom Brady. I'm not even too confident that half the people here know the first thing about football. Sick of people constantly pissing around like "Cut Peterson, he only rushed for 90 yards today". Or "Cut JA, he didn't get a sack today". Now it's "Cut Ponder, he only passed for almost 400 yards and scored 3 TDs today". HE'S A FUCKING ROOKIE WITH LITTLE TO NO SUPPORTING CAST. CUT HIM SOME FUCKING SLACK. If you're only here to bag on the things that players did wrong and have zero insight to what anybody did right than you can go fuck yourself. The world needs less negative assholes like you. You don't think Ponder is kicking himself for that int at the end of the game? You don't think he's going to learn from it? IT'S CALLED BEING NEW TO SOMETHING. EVERYBODY IS ALWAYS NEW TO SOMETHING AT ONE POINT. Hell, it was against one of the best defenses in the league. Stop your bitching and be thankful we have someone who has some promise. Oh wait, no he doesn't because he made some mistakes in the first 4 starts in his career. Give me a fucking break. You make me sick.
amen!

mamaluke
12-05-2011, 12:38 AM
It is so obvious. Jesus clearly loves Tebow and hates the Vikings with a passion!!!

skum
12-05-2011, 01:50 AM
Tebow is the luckiest quarterback in NFL history

singersp
12-05-2011, 04:20 AM
I'll never understand why teams in the situation the Vikings were in at the end of this game don't just half-ass it and let them in for the touchdown. They're not going to miss the chip shot - just let them in and give yourself enough time to tie the game. We could have had the ball with about a minute left and two timeouts. Instead we let them run the clock all the way down and kick the winning field goal that any functional human being over the age of 12 could have made. Brilliant strategy, Les.

It's not just today with the Vikings, either. Almost nobody thinks to do this. Why the hell not? Is it out of some stupid sense of pride?

We were in that situation at the end of the game because Ponder threw an INT on the 1st play of the last drive. Pretty sure that wasn't part of Les' strategy.

singersp
12-05-2011, 04:47 AM
Sick of our awful secondary. We should've taken Amukamara instead of Ponder. We'd still suck enough to get either Luck or Barkley. We need a Kalil and to pick up Desean in FA. Rudolph is going to be a beast, and yes singer, this loss isn't on Harvin. Sure he threw two picks, but he wasn't giving up 28 points to the garbage tebow offense. He obviously played his part, but what do you expect with a terrible O-line and aromashadu as a top WR.

This loss was way more on our defense than anyone else. Harvin is a god and I feel bad that he's being wasted on our crap team.


I never said it was on Harvin. ;P

Our defense didn't give up 28 points either. 10 points of the 35 was was all on Ponder. The pick 6 & the int that gave them the ball at the 15, well within winning FG range.

The fumble also killed another potential scoring drive. Thank God they didn't capitalize on that turnover.

Our defense played lousy, primarily the backfield, but they still netted us 2 points on the safety & two turnovers that put us in great field position that resulted in 10 more points.

singersp
12-05-2011, 05:01 AM
Agree to a degree.

I don't think that we shoudl go in a different direction. I DO think Ponder should not be starting though. He's making poor mistake after poor mistake, and costing us games. McNabb didn't cost us games, but he didn't go win us any either.

Ponder obviously has talent, and he's got potential, but he's not ready to lead a pro football team, especially one in that state the Vikings are in.


I still think he should still be starting. It's not like sitting him & playing Webb will increase our playoff hopes.

Our season is done & has been done. Might as well use it to give Ponder all the experience we can this season, rather than have it happen next year.

singersp
12-05-2011, 05:24 AM
I agree. People on this site are starting to piss me off. They expect a rookie quarterback (with no offensive line OR training camp) to play like he's fucking Tom Brady. I'm not even too confident that half the people here know the first thing about football. Sick of people constantly pissing around like "Cut Peterson, he only rushed for 90 yards today". Or "Cut JA, he didn't get a sack today". Now it's "Cut Ponder, he only passed for almost 400 yards and scored 3 TDs today". HE'S A FUCKING ROOKIE WITH LITTLE TO NO SUPPORTING CAST. CUT HIM SOME FUCKING SLACK. If you're only here to bag on the things that players did wrong and have zero insight to what anybody did right than you can go fuck yourself. The world needs less negative assholes like you. You don't think Ponder is kicking himself for that int at the end of the game? You don't think he's going to learn from it? IT'S CALLED BEING NEW TO SOMETHING. EVERYBODY IS ALWAYS NEW TO SOMETHING AT ONE POINT. Hell, it was against one of the best defenses in the league. Stop your bitching and be thankful we have someone who has some promise. Oh wait, no he doesn't because he made some mistakes in the first 4 starts in his career. Give me a fucking break. You make me sick.

Tell us how you really feel.

Settle down!

Unless I missed something, there hasn't been 1 post in this thread that suggested we cut Ponder, nor have I seen any that suggest we cut AD or JA.

Sure, people have said he cost us the game with 3 turnovers & justifiable so. No one expects him to play like Tom Brady & everyone here, I believe, expects him to make rookie mistakes.

Those rookie mistakes however, even though they were expected, still played a huge part in us losing the game.

To suggest those mistakes didn't play a huge part in us losing the game simply because he was a rookie & because it was expected, ergo free from fault/blame, is ridiculous.

How much slack did Jackson get when he played with little or no supporting cast? Certainly nowhere's close to 6-1/2 games.

Caine
12-05-2011, 06:11 AM
Tell us how you really feel.

Settle down!

Unless I missed something, there hasn't been 1 post in this thread that suggested we cut Ponder, nor have I seen any that suggest we cut AD or JA.

Sure, people have said he cost us the game with 3 turnovers & justifiable so. No one expects him to play like Tom Brady & everyone here, I believe, expects him to make rookie mistakes.

Those rookie mistakes however, even though they were expected, still played a huge part in us losing the game.

To suggest those mistakes didn't play a huge part in us losing the game simply because he was a rookie & because it was expected, ergo free from fault/blame, is ridiculous.

How much slack did Jackson get when he played with little or no supporting cast? Certainly nowhere's close to 6-1/2 games.

In reverse:

You're right....Jackson got nowhere near 6 1/2 games of slack....it was more like 3 1/2 YEARS of slack.

Ponder looked pretty good for a 6 1/2 game rookie though. He took control of the team. He made plays. He made a few mistakes too - but in the grand scheme of things, I thought the good FAR outweighed the bad.

I thought Gerhart was excellent too. Ran tough, got some nice gains. Sure, he's no AP....no one is. But he carried the load like he was supposed to.

Allan played well...which is why I mentioned possibly trading him a few weeks back. Allen is a stud DE, but he's 29 years old and I'm afraid that we may not improve in time for him to benefit from it. Do I WANT to lose Allen? Hell no. But I'm prepared for that eventuality.

Harvin was everything we hoped he'd be today. Don't understand why he and Rudolph we're on the sidelines when we're pushing to score....Frazier & Company has to go....but Harvin made a huge impact when he was playing.

Hell, I even thought the O-line stepped up in the 2nd half. Sure, they sucked ass in the 1st, but we expect that.

The downside was the secondary.

That's how I saw it anyway...

Caine

singersp
12-05-2011, 06:50 AM
In reverse:

You're right....Jackson got nowhere near 6 1/2 games of slack....it was more like 3 1/2 YEARS of slack.

Caine

LOL!

3-1/2 years of slack? Are you fucking kidding me!!!!!!

There are hundreds of posts bashing Jackson during his first season starting alone! You yourself included.

Hell, he was getting bashed in his rookie start against GB. Where have you been?

If you're trying to sell us that YOU or the majority of the fans gave him 3-1/2 years of slack, I'm going to call you on that one.

Purple Floyd
12-05-2011, 06:50 AM
Jackson never came close to playing as well in his first 6 1/2 games as Ponder did. Jackson had the benefit of a very strong Tomlin led defense in his rookie year when he got on the field and our defense his second year was a strong unit that scored quite a few TD's and gave him field position. Ponder just threw for 381 yards with a leading WR named Aromashodu or something like that and has over 1500 yards in 7 games.
Jackson:


2007


[/URL]
MIN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings)

12
171
294
58.2
1,911
6.50
9
71
12
3
70.8


Ponder:

2011



[URL="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings"]MIN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings)

7
121
216
56.0
1,522
7.05
9
72
8
3
76.6

singersp
12-05-2011, 06:55 AM
Jackson never came close to playing as well in his first 6 1/2 games as Ponder did. Jackson had the benefit of a very strong Tomlin led defense in his rookie year when he got on the field and our defense his second year was a strong unit that scored quite a few TD's and gave him field position. Ponder just threw for 381 yards with a leading WR named Aromashodu or something like that and has over 1500 yards in 7 games.
Jackson:


2007


[/URL]
MIN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings)

12
171
294
58.2
1,911
6.50
9
71
12
3
70.8


Ponder:

2011



[URL="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings"]MIN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings)

7
121
216
56.0
1,522
7.05
9
72
8
3
76.6



So what your saying is that only "certain" rookies deserve slack? Hmmmmm!

TheAnimal93
12-05-2011, 07:54 AM
TJack is a dead horse. I dont understand why he is still prominent in conversation here. Give up the ghost.

shockzilla
12-05-2011, 08:00 AM
TJack is a dead horse. I dont understand why he is still prominent in conversation here. Give up the ghost.

+5,000,000

This place has become ridiculously bad. No wonder I don't come on here very often. Same shit, different day.

Johnson14
12-05-2011, 08:07 AM
+5,000,000

This place has become ridiculously bad. No wonder I don't come on here very often. Same shit, different day.

+5,000,001

purpledoom
12-05-2011, 08:11 AM
In reverse:

You're right....Jackson got nowhere near 6 1/2 games of slack....it was more like 3 1/2 YEARS of slack.

Ponder looked pretty good for a 6 1/2 game rookie though. He took control of the team. He made plays. He made a few mistakes too - but in the grand scheme of things, I thought the good FAR outweighed the bad.

I thought Gerhart was excellent too. Ran tough, got some nice gains. Sure, he's no AP....no one is. But he carried the load like he was supposed to.

Allan played well...which is why I mentioned possibly trading him a few weeks back. Allen is a stud DE, but he's 29 years old and I'm afraid that we may not improve in time for him to benefit from it. Do I WANT to lose Allen? Hell no. But I'm prepared for that eventuality.

Harvin was everything we hoped he'd be today. Don't understand why he and Rudolph we're on the sidelines when we're pushing to score....Frazier & Company has to go....but Harvin made a huge impact when he was playing.

Hell, I even thought the O-line stepped up in the 2nd half. Sure, they sucked ass in the 1st, but we expect that.

The downside was the secondary.

That's how I saw it anyway...

Caine

Amen

digital420
12-05-2011, 08:43 AM
since i'm working form home now i getz to get back into the PPO!!

so, I have got to say that for me, and i'll explain this. this game was something that I was hoping for. not the loss.. as much as the development of the Team. Esp how the team would react without AP, going against a more then decent ponies D.

1. coaches: Solid challanges!! normally this wouldn't be something i'd say deserves mention as they SHOULD always manage the clock, and challenges as pro coaches! but both were decisive, and both done just as the ponies were trying to slip that next play in. I know i'll get hammered for this. but i'm kinda glad AP isn't in the mix at the moment. our O plays still had a lot of run, and the big G stood up and did well. but the sync of passing plays, the O dropped the.. all on AP's back, and forced Ponder to play his game, and the coaches to prepare a game plan based on that.
AND THANK YOU for using the RB dump pass more!! !#$%!#$% bout time!

2. Ponder. I wonder how different he must feel knowing that he was gonna face 4-5 man fronts all game. sure they blitzed, every1 does.. but I got to see a bit of what ponder would do when he had to face what everyone else faces. yeah he through a couple int's. it's gonna happen in the here and now.. but i really doubt it will continue. Ponder made a lot of good reads.. some times I still think he's too ready to tuck and run.. and that might open itself more when AP is back. now I don't believe he's anywhere near his potential. but after what I saw yesterday, I'm curious what's gonna happen when AP returns.. and so do those contant 8-9 man fronts.. esp with the way he's started to find PH, and ASH.. and really glad there is trust between the rookies!
one last part here.. those dump offs to Garhart.. just a foreshadowing to what will be AP's spot.

3. WR/TE's lots of good blocking, some great catches. seems to me there without AP.. the wr's started really being in the lime light. and a few showed me they deserve to be on the roster. (another post for that one). PH showed again that we have 2 very capable rookie of the year winners.. and I bet we're gonna see a lot more of his long runs, massive YAC, and AP style toe dragging TD dances. Rudolf.. wow.. TD catch (woulda been a fumble except for being in the endzone) he's gonna be a great asset!

4. over all the O put up 30 points.. 10 off turnovers, and yes did make some penalty mistakes.. but we didn't shoot ourselves in the foot there. the Oline needs help.. we knew that.. and our KR's better start guessing better on whether to or not run out of the endzone..


as for the D.. they did not loose this game for us.. nothing could have been done by the D for the 10 points the pondies got from ponders mistakes.. they held denver to under 30% 3rd down inefficiency. we need a PhatPat replacement.. we have some good backups, but we need a monster in there next to Kwill.

our secondary.. well.. not a lot can be said except.. we need help..

well. good 2 be back posting.. and here's to a Viking future!

DiGiTaL

tarkenton10
12-05-2011, 09:57 AM
We can't blame this loss on Ponder. Did he give them the go ahead points? Yes. But he also kept us in the game. 21 more carries for Toby, and he still couldn't break the century mark. On top of an embarrassing coverage performance and zero pressure on the QB from our defense. Christian Ponder is the future of this football team. We gotta stick with him. There are going to be some big mistakes, but there will also be some signs of greatness. So far, we've seen equal shares of both.

You do realize that if you only have 21 carries and you expect 100 yds he would have to average 4.76 yds a carry. So he did ok when you look at his yards.

tastywaves
12-05-2011, 10:08 AM
I haven't posted here in a while because there hasn't been much to comment on this season....however....I just couldn't keep my mouth closed after watching the absolute pitiful performance by the secondary once again...in particular by Jamarca Sanford. He is, by far, the WORST safety in the league. He can't cover....can't tackle and hardly ever knows where to go on coverage as was evident in allowing the Broncos to take this victory. Yes, Ponder through some bad picks...but the game was in hand until the Broncos figured out that all they have to do is throw the ball deep on us. Lots of other issues on this team, but Sanford is absolutely brutal

I agree on our safety play. This is by far the weakest part of our team. They are anything but safe, they are pure danger. If you can't get deep coverage from your safeties, the cover 2 is completely worthless. Throw in a bunch of practice squad CB fillers and the weakness is magnified. I suspect a change is coming and we will look to get more athletic in the secondary and start playing more man coverage. No matter who is coaching the defense next year.

The only salvation at the moment is for Marrdro's desires to materialize. Heavy pressure from the front four that limits the amount of time our secondary has to cover. Tebow had a lot of time yesterday...too much time, even when we threw mutliple blitzers at him.

tastywaves
12-05-2011, 10:12 AM
You do realize that if you only have 21 carries and you expect 100 yds he would have to average 4.76 yds a carry. So he did ok when you look at his yards.

I thought Toby had a good day as well. Not sure why Mullet needs to see 100 yards, fantasy player? Expecting him to be AD will always leave you let down. He was a more than adequate second RB. He blew up linebackers multiple times. If we had a team that was executing, you would see a lot more value with this guy as the role player he is.

NDVikingFan66
12-05-2011, 11:38 AM
LOL!

Just 2 INTs that lead to 10 points plus a 3rd down throw to no one late in the game which made us settle for 3 instead of 7.

We lose by 3.

Yep can't blame this loss on Ponder at all. *sarcasm off*

In fairness, we put up 32 points. That should win you an NFL game. I am not excusing Ponder, but seriously, where in the hell was our Defense?

In a span during the 3rd quarter, Denver ran 3 plays resulting in 2 touchdowns if I remember correctly. Both series were a result of horrible D, crappy tacking, and poor special teams.

Seriously....we lit up a good Denver D for 32 points and lost??? Unreal.

RK.
12-05-2011, 11:47 AM
I think Toby had a really good day. He gets better every game. Again remember He Is A Rookie playing in his second game as the main running back. Please.... every rookie playing on our team is not going to play like a HOF pro bowler in their first games... geeeeze.

idahovikefan7
12-05-2011, 12:04 PM
We have been spoiled by watching peterson the last few years. I think that's where the hate on Gerhart is coming from. He had a good game, but he will never be an AD. There is no comparison.

battleaxe4cheese
12-05-2011, 12:07 PM
We have been spoiled by watching peterson the last few years. I think that's where the hate on Gerhart is coming from. He had a good game, but he will never be an AD. There is no comparison.

This.

Purple Floyd
12-05-2011, 12:11 PM
So what your saying is that only "certain" rookies deserve slack? Hmmmmm!

Nope. I don't think after his rookie year there was much negativity around Jackson. And certainly not more than we are seeing with Ponder. There were questions after his second year and into his third that proved to be 100% right on the spot but in his rookie season and until probably half of his second season he got a pretty free ride.

Freakout
12-05-2011, 12:44 PM
I think Toby had a really good day. He gets better every game. Again remember He Is A Rookie playing in his second game as the main running back. Please.... every rookie playing on our team is not going to play like a HOF pro bowler in their first games... geeeeze.

Announcing crew mentioned that Toby seems to run better with a fullback. I tend to agree. Toby is a downhill runner that isn't going to juke or jive anyone out of their shoes. Give him a solid lead block and he does a good job of running over defenders.

I honestly thought our running game looked better yesterday with Toby than it has at times with Peterson. There wasn't as much feast or famine. Toby was pretty steady.

Purple Floyd
12-05-2011, 01:02 PM
I think Peterson looks better running behind a good FB too but that is another story.

Marrdro
12-05-2011, 01:03 PM
Cedric Griffin needs to be taken out back and shot.
Why, because in the C2 scheme he is supposed to handoff a guy to the S. Wasn't Griffs fault the S wasn't there.

Freakout
12-05-2011, 01:13 PM
Why, because in the C2 scheme he is supposed to handoff a guy to the S. Wasn't Griffs fault the S wasn't there.

It is a lack of communication and both are responsible.

RK.
12-05-2011, 01:14 PM
We have been spoiled by watching peterson the last few years. I think that's where the hate on Gerhart is coming from. He had a good game, but he will never be an AD. There is no comparison.

99% of the running backs that have ever played in the NFL will never be an AD. So what. Toby was only about 30 votes short of winning the Heisman trophy. He is a straight ahead power runner that takes about 3 guys to bring him down. With the right blocking he will wear a line and linebackers down and control the time of possession. I look forward to seeing a lot more of him in the offense.

Marrdro
12-05-2011, 01:18 PM
It is a lack of communication and both are responsible.
You are correct, communication should have started when the D-coord called in the play, followed along with the position coaches and their player packages to support it, right up to when the MLB made the change (if any) pre-snap.

Still can't put it all on Griff.

Look at how lost Hutch looked last night. You gonna try to tell me he is a piece of crap?

Been saying it all year.....This team melts down in the second half. It isn't because it is void of talent. Its because the coaches don't have a clue.

Marrdro
12-05-2011, 01:21 PM
In fairness, we put up 32 points. That should win you an NFL game. I am not excusing Ponder, but seriously, where in the hell was our Defense?

In a span during the 3rd quarter, Denver ran 3 plays resulting in 2 touchdowns if I remember correctly. Both series were a result of horrible D, crappy tacking, and poor special teams.

Seriously....we lit up a good Denver D for 32 points and lost??? Unreal.
Excellent post my friend.

Did the DB's look lost? Sure. But so did the DL and LB'rs for cripes sake. Atleast in the second half. Loved how the D played in the first half.

Freakout
12-05-2011, 01:24 PM
You are correct, communication should have started when the D-coord called in the play, followed along with the position coaches and their player packages to support it, right up to when the MLB made the change (if any) pre-snap.

Still can't put it all on Griff.

Look at how lost Hutch looked last night. You gonna try to tell me he is a piece of crap?

Been saying it all year.....This team melts down in the second half. It isn't because it is void of talent. Its because the coaches don't have a clue.

No Hutchinson is still much better than Cedric but even he has declined.

Marrdro
12-05-2011, 01:30 PM
In reverse:

You're right....Jackson got nowhere near 6 1/2 games of slack....it was more like 3 1/2 YEARS of slack.

Ponder looked pretty good for a 6 1/2 game rookie though. He took control of the team. He made plays. He made a few mistakes too - but in the grand scheme of things, I thought the good FAR outweighed the bad.

I thought Gerhart was excellent too. Ran tough, got some nice gains. Sure, he's no AP....no one is. But he carried the load like he was supposed to.

Allan played well...which is why I mentioned possibly trading him a few weeks back. Allen is a stud DE, but he's 29 years old and I'm afraid that we may not improve in time for him to benefit from it. Do I WANT to lose Allen? Hell no. But I'm prepared for that eventuality.

Harvin was everything we hoped he'd be today. Don't understand why he and Rudolph we're on the sidelines when we're pushing to score....Frazier & Company has to go....but Harvin made a huge impact when he was playing.

Hell, I even thought the O-line stepped up in the 2nd half. Sure, they sucked ass in the 1st, but we expect that.

The downside was the secondary.

That's how I saw it anyway...

Caine
All the TJ stuff aside, pretty fair assesment and about the way I saw it.

OL looked good second half, lost the first half.
Best combined WR showing all year.
Nice game, not great, out of Toby but that is about what we should expect from him. Solid 100 yards of pounding.
DL good first half, crap second half.
DB's good first half, crap second half. Seriously, why were the CB's handing a guy over if there wasn't a S helping over the top? (Play calling)

Again, when you watch a guy like Hutch wandering around like a Rook, basically dazed and confused, how can you blame a youngster like Ponder or even other vets like Griff?

Time to shit can the whole coaching staff and start over, as much as I hate it. Problem is, Wilf is still paying the Chiller, would also still owe Frazcluelessier and would have to pay the new guy. Lets hope the ownership group atleasts figures out they need a GM, and that guy can find the right Coordinators who can overcome Leslies faults.

Marrdro
12-05-2011, 01:34 PM
No Hutchinson is still much better than Cedric but even he has declined.
Declined or just not sure what the hell is going on? One could almost say the same thing if step back and look at Big Mac. Two different players.

Is it talent or just fricked up coaches holding the talent down?

Don't get me wrong, Griff looked bad, but damn, anyone who knows anything about the C2 could clearly see he covered, let it hit the zone, and then handed over to no one. That has nothing to do with knees, talent or being washed up. It has everything to do with not knowing what the hell is supposed to happen.

And........Unless the game has changed......That gets back to the gameplan and playcalling.

Purple Floyd
12-05-2011, 02:19 PM
Why, because in the C2 scheme he is supposed to handoff a guy to the S. Wasn't Griffs fault the S wasn't there.

Was he in C2 or Man? Any time you press and jam at the LOS you cannot release to a safety over the top when you only have one of them. And in the zone coverage the S, unless you can find anything different, is never responsible from the 3 yard line back.

Freakout
12-05-2011, 02:42 PM
Declined or just not sure what the hell is going on? One could almost say the same thing if step back and look at Big Mac. Two different players.

Is it talent or just fricked up coaches holding the talent down?

Don't get me wrong, Griff looked bad, but damn, anyone who knows anything about the C2 could clearly see he covered, let it hit the zone, and then handed over to no one. That has nothing to do with knees, talent or being washed up. It has everything to do with not knowing what the hell is supposed to happen.

And........Unless the game has changed......That gets back to the gameplan and playcalling.

I could maybe buy that argument except for the fact that the offensive line was at best average (and I am being nice) last season under a completely different staff.

As for the defense - this is the same staff that has been here since 2009 when we were in the NFCCG. Griffin and Sanford should know damn well by now how to execute our base cover 2 set.

marstc09
12-05-2011, 03:23 PM
More Frazier: "We're limited on what we can change in our secondary. ...if they can just execute the technique we'll have a chance."

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/KFAN1003/status/143760813117812736)

Harvin says the #Vikings should aim for an offensive lineman with the team's first pick in the draft.

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/KFAN1003/status/143739509807398912)

Hmmmm an NFL player and coach agree with me. I guess that is better than some yutz with a keyboard disagreeing with me. Life is good.

Purple Floyd
12-05-2011, 03:27 PM
Don't get me wrong, Griff looked bad, but damn, anyone who knows anything about the C2 could clearly see he covered, let it hit the zone, and then handed over to no one. That has nothing to do with knees, talent or being washed up. It has everything to do with not knowing what the hell is supposed to happen.



On the two plays I have in mind he clearly was on the LOS, made a poor attempt at a bump and then made no attempt to stay with the WR. Can you fill me in on how deep his zone was on those plays? I know of no zone defense that has the CB covering 2 yards from the LOS and the single S covering the rest of the field for Both sides.

Purple Floyd
12-05-2011, 03:30 PM
More Frazier: "We're limited on what we can change in our secondary. ...if they can just execute the technique we'll have a chance."

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/KFAN1003/status/143760813117812736)

Harvin says the #Vikings should aim for an offensive lineman with the team's first pick in the draft.

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/KFAN1003/status/143739509807398912)

Hmmmm an NFL player and coach agree with me. I guess that is better than some yutz with a keyboard disagreeing with me. Life is good.

Look up what former Vikings player and coach Pete Bercich said on the same subject. In a nutshell he would take an OT or a CB/S. Although he feels the OT would be the pick that would be a higher probability of paying off.

MaxVike
12-05-2011, 03:37 PM
One more point to the game. The announcers were brutal. Billick especially. How many times I heard about "Gerald" Allen and Cedric "Griffith" making plays..... Brutal.:rofl: My wife came into my den and caught me yelling "IT'S JARED!!!"

marstc09
12-05-2011, 03:45 PM
LOL!

Just 2 INTs that lead to 10 points plus a 3rd down throw to no one late in the game which made us settle for 3 instead of 7.

We lose by 3.

Yep can't blame this loss on Ponder at all. *sarcasm off*

I thought you were the one not blaming T-JOKE for the loss to the Eagles in the playoffs. Interesting. Double standards?

MaxVike
12-05-2011, 03:48 PM
+5,000,000

This place has become ridiculously bad. No wonder I don't come on here very often. Same shit, different day.

So, so true. I keep trying, but, it's becoming more and more laborious.

Purple Floyd
12-05-2011, 04:16 PM
+5,000,000

This place has become ridiculously bad. No wonder I don't come on here very often. Same shit, different day.

Seriously? 5 years ago it was Tice Vs Childress. Williamson vs Moss. Wilf Vs Red. KAO vs Chuck it deep.....


Maybe come on here more often and start the kind of conversation you feel is lacking and I will do what I can to keep it on point.

Secondly, if every poster gets this every time they post then it would explain why most people don't post.


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Caine
12-05-2011, 04:56 PM
LOL!

3-1/2 years of slack? Are you fucking kidding me!!!!!!

There are hundreds of posts bashing Jackson during his first season starting alone! You yourself included.

Hell, he was getting bashed in his rookie start against GB. Where have you been?

If you're trying to sell us that YOU or the majority of the fans gave him 3-1/2 years of slack, I'm going to call you on that one.

1: If you recall, I was the one who advocated not starting him his 2nd year - I said it would ruin him.

2: That year, my major criticism of him was that he didn't actually LEAD anything - he rode AP or the Defense. Ironically, that criticism stayed with him his entire tenure here.

3: My other major criticism year #2 was that he was handed the starting job despite me believing he wasn't ready for it.

4: It wasn't until year #3, after he couldn't beat out Gus Frerotte, that I called it on him. However, he still had a handful of "faithful" throwing every excuse in the book out there...for another 2 1/2 years...

So, "call it" all you want, I stand by my original statement.

Caine

singersp
12-05-2011, 05:57 PM
Nope. I don't think after his rookie year there was much negativity around Jackson. And certainly not more than we are seeing with Ponder. There were questions after his second year and into his third that proved to be 100% right on the spot but in his rookie season and until probably half of his second season he got a pretty free ride.

And that's where we disagree & my point comes from. There was a ton of negativity against Jackson after he was named the starter. It wasn't constructive criticism either, it was flat out bashing.

I believe the term T-Joke, was started even before he was named the starter & the "Whose tired of the T-Jack Project" started very early on as well. In 2007 the very minute any of his passes were off the mark, a new bashing thread was started & any loss was blamed totally on Jackson.

To even suggest our horse-shit O-Line or our WR corp led by Troy Williamson & co. was to blame for any loss, had those fans labeled as T-Jack apologists.


What we see happening to Ponder is constructive criticisms. He threw some picks that resulted in points for our opponents and played a big factor in us losing the game.

Bad on him. Yep, he's a rookie, but that fault still lies on him. Move on, learn from it & hopefully get better.

singersp
12-05-2011, 06:04 PM
Harvin was everything we hoped he'd be today. Don't understand why he and Rudolph we're on the sidelines when we're pushing to score....Frazier & Company has to go....but Harvin made a huge impact when he was playing.

Caine

I don't understand why Rudolph is on the sidelines for most of the season. Time after time he shows his ability to snag the ball and maintain possession, but Frazier fails to capitalize on his abilities.

singersp
12-05-2011, 06:09 PM
I thought you were the one not blaming T-JOKE for the loss to the Eagles in the playoffs. Interesting. Double standards?

I never said Jackson wasn't to blame at all for that loss. Unlike what some people claimed, there was plenty of blame to go around.

Ponder wasn't the sole person to blame either. However, he's not exempt from blame just because he's a rookie either.

singersp
12-05-2011, 06:20 PM
1: If you recall, I was the one who advocated not starting him his 2nd year - I said it would ruin him.

2: That year, my major criticism of him was that he didn't actually LEAD anything - he rode AP or the Defense. Ironically, that criticism stayed with him his entire tenure here.

3: My other major criticism year #2 was that he was handed the starting job despite me believing he wasn't ready for it.

4: It wasn't until year #3, after he couldn't beat out Gus Frerotte, that I called it on him. However, he still had a handful of "faithful" throwing every excuse in the book out there...for another 2 1/2 years...

So, "call it" all you want, I stand by my original statement.

Caine

I know where you stood on his second year, but you don't represent the majority, nor did you cut him slack for 3-1/2 years.

We aren't talking about his entire time here, were talking about his first 6-1/2 games in comparison to Ponders.

Some here feel it isn't fair & we shouldn't criticize Ponder because he's only had 6 starts & I pointed out that another QB was getting lambasted at that point. There certainly wasn't anything close to a majority of fans standing up & saying give him some slack, he's just starting & has a lousy OL & WR corp.

I think we all want Ponder to succeed, that wasn't true of Jackson. Fans couldn't wait for him to fail & pounced on every mistake he made.

Freakout
12-05-2011, 07:07 PM
I think we all want Ponder to succeed, that wasn't true of Jackson. Fans couldn't wait for him to fail & pounced on every mistake he made.

I believe the situation surrounding the draft with Fran Foley, not trading up for Jay Cutler when it was available, trading up in the second and taking such an unknown prospect really soured some people on Jackson.

Add in that he and Childress, fair or not, were linked at the hip so that any distaste for Brad normally also landed on Jackson. All we read and listened about was how Chilly was some quarterback guru and it made fans expect the next McNabb.

I do not believe Jackson is a quality starter but I also believe we did him no favors by drafting him. The guy was really a bad decision for the team at the time.

marstc09
12-05-2011, 08:29 PM
I never said Jackson wasn't to blame at all for that loss. Unlike what some people claimed, there was plenty of blame to go around.

Ponder wasn't the sole person to blame either. However, he's not exempt from blame just because he's a rookie either.

If it was T-JOKE the rookie thing would stand. In fact it was used.

marstc09
12-05-2011, 08:35 PM
Look at how lost Hutch looked last night. You gonna try to tell me he is a piece of crap?


Yes, he is on his last leg. He is old. Or does that only work for Favre. *snicker* Hutch was even wearing down last year. His time is up. Give it up. This OL is horrible.

marstc09
12-05-2011, 08:37 PM
Our lack of a secondary lost this game for us. Once again let me point out that Ponder is a ROOKIE. This was the 6th game of his entire NFL carreer. He passed for nearly 400 yds and 3 TD's . Yes he threw into coverage and got picked off....but.....but... he is a ROOKIE thats what ROOKIES do.

I am just happy we were in the game to the end for a change.

Some people on here only recognize the INTs. They don't see anything else.

marstc09
12-05-2011, 08:47 PM
LOL!

3-1/2 years of slack? Are you fucking kidding me!!!!!!

There are hundreds of posts bashing Jackson during his first season starting alone! You yourself included.

Hell, he was getting bashed in his rookie start against GB. Where have you been?

If you're trying to sell us that YOU or the majority of the fans gave him 3-1/2 years of slack, I'm going to call you on that one.

*rolling eyes* He got more than enough time to prove himself. He failed.

marstc09
12-05-2011, 08:49 PM
Jackson never came close to playing as well in his first 6 1/2 games as Ponder did. Jackson had the benefit of a very strong Tomlin led defense in his rookie year when he got on the field and our defense his second year was a strong unit that scored quite a few TD's and gave him field position. Ponder just threw for 381 yards with a leading WR named Aromashodu or something like that and has over 1500 yards in 7 games.
Jackson:


2007


[/URL]
MIN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings)

12
171
294
58.2
1,911
6.50
9
71
12
3
70.8


Ponder:

2011



[URL="http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings"]MIN (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/min/minnesota-vikings)

7
121
216
56.0
1,522
7.05
9
72
8
3
76.6



Ownage.

midgensa
12-05-2011, 08:49 PM
I know where you stood on his second year, but you don't represent the majority, nor did you cut him slack for 3-1/2 years.

We aren't talking about his entire time here, were talking about his first 6-1/2 games in comparison to Ponders.

Some here feel it isn't fair & we shouldn't criticize Ponder because he's only had 6 starts & I pointed out that another QB was getting lambasted at that point. There certainly wasn't anything close to a majority of fans standing up & saying give him some slack, he's just starting & has a lousy OL & WR corp.

I think we all want Ponder to succeed, that wasn't true of Jackson. Fans couldn't wait for him to fail & pounced on every mistake he made.

I am sure you can find some instances ... but as a whole. Jackson was not getting lambasted just 6 starts into his career. People really started piling on Jackson in 2008 after the 0-2 start and Gus guiding us to 8-3 in the next 11 games.

Six games into Jackson's career I am sure there were plenty of people who did not think he was going to cut it (I was not yet one of them) but I feel like most of the talk around here was still pretty optimistic. He was at that point 2-2 in 2007 and things were looking up for the franchise. More people were focused on the impact of AD than blasting T-Jack. Sure, T-Jack had absolutely pretty much sucked at that point (much worse than Ponder in fact) ... but people were not on the "T-Jack has to go at all costs" bandwagon quite yet.

That was after the field goal fest against the Colts in the 18-15 loss the NEXT season. And even then, everyone cut him slack when he came back and played all right after Gus' injury. Once T-Jack shit away our home playoff game ... it was time for him to go.

Ever since then, there has been a small contingent that has acted like "he was not given an opportunity," and "everyone wanted him gone from the get go" ... that simply was not the case.

Edit:
And just for comparisons sake.

T-Jack's first six NFL starts: 75-152, 49.3%, 800 yards, 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 49.7 rating.
Ponder's first six: 112-199, 56.3%, 1423 yards, 9 TDs and 8 INTs. 77.1 rating.

marstc09
12-05-2011, 08:50 PM
So what your saying is that only "certain" rookies deserve slack? Hmmmmm!

No. He is proving just how bad he really was. Hmmmmmmmmmm!

marstc09
12-05-2011, 09:05 PM
Declined or just not sure what the hell is going on? One could almost say the same thing if step back and look at Big Mac. Two different players.

Is it talent or just fricked up coaches holding the talent down?

Don't get me wrong, Griff looked bad, but damn, anyone who knows anything about the C2 could clearly see he covered, let it hit the zone, and then handed over to no one. That has nothing to do with knees, talent or being washed up. It has everything to do with not knowing what the hell is supposed to happen.

And........Unless the game has changed......That gets back to the gameplan and playcalling.

Don't give me that crap. How the hell does a Vet not know what is going on! You act like players never change systems. Ridiculousness! Hutch is old and losing it. Ring a bell. Oh wait, not in the agenda. Cedric did his part but still is just not as talented after the injury. We have played the same damn cover 2 for years. It clearly has to do with talent. The Safeties are not talented.

More Frazier: "We're limited on what we can change in our secondary. ...if they can just execute the technique we'll have a chance."

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/KFAN1003/status/143760813117812736)

I will take a NFL coaches word for it over some yutz fan.

marstc09
12-05-2011, 09:08 PM
Why, because in the C2 scheme he is supposed to handoff a guy to the S. Wasn't Griffs fault the S wasn't there.

Maybe not that play but in general.

Frazier on Cedric Griffin: "His confidence level has not been where it needs to be to able to play at a high level in our league."

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/VikingUpdate/status/143768523548803073)

Coach Leslie Frazier admitted as much, saying the Vikings are playing Griffin out of necessity. “We’re just so depleted depth-wise that we have to have him out there,” Frazier said.

marstc09
12-05-2011, 09:13 PM
I could maybe buy that argument except for the fact that the offensive line was at best average (and I am being nice) last season under a completely different staff.

As for the defense - this is the same staff that has been here since 2009 when we were in the NFCCG. Griffin and Sanford should know damn well by now how to execute our base cover 2 set.

Best post I have seen in a while. Top shelf my friend.

i_bleed_purple
12-05-2011, 09:20 PM
I still think he should still be starting. It's not like sitting him & playing Webb will increase our playoff hopes.

Our season is done & has been done. Might as well use it to give Ponder all the experience we can this season, rather than have it happen next year.

As of now, I agree, Ponder shoudl be the guy, no sense playing anybody else.

HOWEVER, week 1, McNabb was the right guy to start. I still don't think he should have ever been benched. If he never came here, than Webb or somebody else should have been given a shot.

As I said before, you just can't expect a rookie we reached on to perform at an acceptable level early on with no training camp. And that doesn't excuse his poor play, he ideally wouldn't be on the field at all.

Caine
12-06-2011, 06:11 AM
I don't understand why Rudolph is on the sidelines for most of the season. Time after time he shows his ability to snag the ball and maintain possession, but Frazier fails to capitalize on his abilities.

We can summarize that statement by simply saying, "Frazier Fails".....

Caine

Purple Floyd
12-06-2011, 06:53 AM
As of now, I agree, Ponder shoudl be the guy, no sense playing anybody else.

HOWEVER, week 1, McNabb was the right guy to start. I still don't think he should have ever been benched. If he never came here, than Webb or somebody else should have been given a shot.

As I said before, you just can't expect a rookie we reached on to perform at an acceptable level early on with no training camp. And that doesn't excuse his poor play, he ideally wouldn't be on the field at all.

Yeah, that went over so well for us.

His leadership on how to come in out of shape and carry a "Don't give a shit" attitude worked miracles on the team.

The only position he was suited for is the doughnut delivery man.

Suick
12-06-2011, 12:06 PM
Our 2ndary looks like 4-5 KICKERS out there trying to tackle. We have been horrible for 10-15 years now.

Made Tebow look like all pro. I'd like to see the rating on the opposing QB for the last 10 years. Bet its spikes dramatically when they face the Suckings as opposed to the remainder of their opponents.

i_bleed_purple
12-06-2011, 12:23 PM
Our 2ndary looks like 4-5 KICKERS out there trying to tackle. We have been horrible for 10-15 years now.

Made Tebow look like all pro. I'd like to see the rating on the opposing QB for the last 10 years. Bet its spikes dramatically when they face the Suckings as opposed to the remainder of their opponents.

Hey now, no reason to mean to kickers like that, longwell was our best tackler out there.

Johnson14
12-06-2011, 12:33 PM
Hey now, no reason to mean to kickers like that, longwell was our best tackler out there.

LOL!..

To be honest, we have low end draft picks and FA guys out there right now (and Ced Griff, lol), so it isnt THAT bad.. we're beat up bad in the secondary.. and we only got burned on 2 busted coverages which is bad enough for sure, but it wasnt every down we were getting picked apart.. for what its worth i thought Sapp had a decent game, made some great open field tackles.

MossMems
12-06-2011, 01:06 PM
Ponder played pretty well. Hes a rookie that shows promise. But then makes rookie mistakes. At least he has a season to 'practice'. But if we were in contention, those 3 turnovers and other rookie errors would really matter and hed be taking alot more heat.

Ced has to go. I hurt inside when I see him try to play. Or when he looks over for safety help. Does he really expect safety help when he hasnt gotten any thin year? As bad as our CBs are, our safeties are worse.

PH is so good. Toby looked better, but I still dont trust him in short yard situation. Why do we only throw once or twice to Kyle? Why is he on the sidelines when we are on the goal line? Who is Mustgrave trying to trick with Webb in? He is tricking himself.

We let this one get away from us. I guess god does love Tebow.

TheAnimal93
12-06-2011, 03:48 PM
So, what everyone is trying to say that our secondary couldn't cover a nickle with a 10 x 10 tarp?

Freakout
12-06-2011, 03:49 PM
So, what everyone is trying to say that our secondary couldn't cover a nickle with a 10 x 10 tarp?

They would struggle locating the nickle.

Caine
12-06-2011, 04:10 PM
I know where you stood on his second year, but you don't represent the majority, nor did you cut him slack for 3-1/2 years.

We aren't talking about his entire time here, were talking about his first 6-1/2 games in comparison to Ponders.

Some here feel it isn't fair & we shouldn't criticize Ponder because he's only had 6 starts & I pointed out that another QB was getting lambasted at that point. There certainly wasn't anything close to a majority of fans standing up & saying give him some slack, he's just starting & has a lousy OL & WR corp.

I think we all want Ponder to succeed, that wasn't true of Jackson. Fans couldn't wait for him to fail & pounced on every mistake he made.

NMo one wanted Jackson to fail in year 1 or 2...or even in year 5. We WANTED him to succeed. After year 2, I no longer believed he would.

However, in year 1 and the early phase of year 2, no one was calling for his head, and most of his mistakes were labeled exactly that - mistakes. Rookie mistakes no less. Just like Ponder's.

The difference that I think we'll see is that Jackson never advanced beyond that...Ponder, I believe, will. In fact, Ponder is showing better pocket presence and better game command after 6 1/2 weeks than Jackson did after 5 years.

Caine

midgensa
12-06-2011, 04:42 PM
NMo one wanted Jackson to fail in year 1 or 2...or even in year 5. We WANTED him to succeed. After year 2, I no longer believed he would.

However, in year 1 and the early phase of year 2, no one was calling for his head, and most of his mistakes were labeled exactly that - mistakes. Rookie mistakes no less. Just like Ponder's.

The difference that I think we'll see is that Jackson never advanced beyond that...Ponder, I believe, will. In fact, Ponder is showing better pocket presence and better game command after 6 1/2 weeks than Jackson did after 5 years.

Caine

That is a point I tried to discuss earlier in the thread.

Many around these parts act as though everyone was calling for T-Jack's head from his first pass, and that is simply untrue. I believe most were fine with him until Gus was guiding the same team to wins T-Jack couldn't.

As for the "first six-games" discussion. T-Jack was terrible, absolutely dreadful, in his first six games while Ponder has been at worst, serviceable.

For comparisons sake.

T-Jack's first six NFL starts: 75-152, 49.3%, 800 yards, 3 TDs and 8 INTs. 49.7 rating.
(T-Jack was also starting for a team that missed the playoffs barely and would be a division champion just one year later)

Ponder's first six: 112-199, 56.3%, 1423 yards, 9 TDs and 8 INTs. 77.1 rating.
(Ponder is starting for a team clearly rebuilding and not a real division contender in the immediate future.)

Purple Floyd
12-06-2011, 05:43 PM
The good news is that there seems to be a groundswell of people coming out for a position I have been lobbying for for several years and that is for the team to hire a GM.

In the past few days it seems to get mentioned by every former player, coach or insider they talk to on KFAN and that has to be filtering back up to the top of the organization.

Today even Chuck Foreman called out the vikings organization for not having a GM and stated that it should be a priority to get one to provide leadership and stability to the organization.

As the pressure builds I am convinced Wilf will need to make that move in the off season. I just hope he interviews more than one guy.

midgensa
12-06-2011, 06:26 PM
The good news is that there seems to be a groundswell of people coming out for a position I have been lobbying for for several years and that is for the team to hire a GM.

In the past few days it seems to get mentioned by every former player, coach or insider they talk to on KFAN and that has to be filtering back up to the top of the organization.

Today even Chuck Foreman called out the vikings organization for not having a GM and stated that it should be a priority to get one to provide leadership and stability to the organization.

As the pressure builds I am convinced Wilf will need to make that move in the off season. I just hope he interviews more than one guy.
I just hope he doesn't think, "That Brad guy was decent at personnel and terrible at coaching, lets make him GM."

There needs to be an end-all be-all GM to take responsibility for the roster. Someone that takes the blame and/or gets the credit.

Right now, with so many hands in the pot there is never someone who can really take the fall, which hurts because when a team crumbles like we have the last two years it is tough to figure out exactly who is to blame.

A solid personnel guy who knows what he is doing could turn this team around ... sooner rather than later also.

12purplepride28
12-10-2011, 12:19 AM
Wait did we lose to Tebow? What a stupid game. Our defense is awful, but I don't think it's as much coaching as it is personnel. Both our starting safeties (well tyrell and hussain) were out and our top 3 corners (can't believe asher is one of our top 3) were out of the game. Tebow didn't really play great against us except a couple plays, but he did things that a starting QB should do like hit open WRs. We clearly need to draft a WR and OT, but secondary help should be a priority too. If we can't get Kalil now that he's likely going back to USC and the Rams take Blackmon assuming they draft ahead of us, I'd love to see us take Morris Claiborne or trade back to someone hoping for the next best QB after Luck which will be Barkley if he declares.

Lippythelion69
12-12-2011, 04:28 PM
Seriously? 5 years ago it was Tice Vs Childress. Williamson vs Moss. Wilf Vs Red. KAO vs Chuck it deep.....


Maybe come on here more often and start the kind of conversation you feel is lacking and I will do what I can to keep it on point.

Secondly, if every poster gets this every time they post then it would explain why most people don't post.



Good point. It's people's opinions,,and starting a post like mine about Ponder may seem idiotic to you but there are some very contructive posts. That followed...my advice read every post....

And like the man said start your own and enlighten us please......like who do you take in a draft the best player,athlete"...or what you need...