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Purple Floyd
11-20-2011, 03:23 PM
Yep. It's time for a complete overhaul and IMHO everything is on the table.

Suick
11-20-2011, 03:26 PM
Disagree


2ndary yes. They have sucked for about 10-15 years now

O line probably

Special teams should be taken out and shot

Linebackers/D-line are the strength of the team

WR \'s show promise, but a stud wide out is needed

Freakout
11-20-2011, 04:06 PM
Ponder had some tunnel vision moments. Had some great throws combined with some awful ones. I still like the kid and you expect mistakes from a rookie. To get picked off only to come back and hit Shank with a beautiful throw. That is why I like him - despite a poor day he doesn't seem to let mistakes linger.

O-line just flat out sucks. Two weeks in a row that defenders have had a untouched run right at Ponder. At this rate the team will be forced to draft another quarterback. I thought Sullivan was our only consistent guy today and I am not exactly a fan of his.

WR - According to Souhan and Pelissero our wideout's are getting no separation down the field. When Ponder is forced to scramble the wideout's just stop and watch.

TE - 50/50. You can't be getting offside penalties Shank. It seems you get one every damn game. Then you had Rudolph not getting his feet set which brought back a 15 yard gain.

RB - Peterson was going to have a great game before going down. Gerhart is not a running back. The kid should hit the weights and make the switch to fullback.

Percy Harvin - yeah he gets his own position. Quite frankly I don't know what he really is but the guy has steel balls. Wish we had 15 more people just like him.

DL - Robison was getting manhandled on the edge. Despite the hot start he has crashed back down to earth. Glad to see a Kevin Williams sighting. Jared Allen didn't have a big game but I credit the Raiders. Ballard had the forced fumble and Guion with the blocked field goal but I still I want to see more out of our other DT's.

LB - I felt they were mediocre for most of the game but apparently someone dosed them with 5 hour energy to start the 4th quarter. Greenway and EJ really came alive and I felt it kind of fired up the defense.

As for the DB's again I don't have high expectations with all the injuries / Cook situation. I would give them a C (-) minus.

ST - The Booker fumble killed us. Guy's not staying in their lanes.

Traveling_Vike
11-20-2011, 04:21 PM
Overhaul, yeah, probably. But there are a few things that don't need to be messed with, at least not much.

Tight Ends are good to great. If we lose Shiancoe after this year, he will need to be replaced, but Rudolph, IMO, is ready to take over the starting role. A bit of seasoning to eliminate the rookie mistakes, and he'll be just fine.

Special Teams have been a bright spot this year, with only a couple of exceptions. Longwell is old and getting older so we should look for a replacement, but he is serviceable if no reasonable kicker is found. Kluwe is excellent as a punter. Returners are decent with potential for great improvement. The coverage units will, as always, be a function of what the final roster looks like. Backup LBs, WRs and secondary players fill this out on any team at any time.

Quarterbacks should probably not be messed with at this point, now that Ponder has been handed the reins. Unless, of course, he falls completely apart riding out the rest of this season. Webb is decent to back him up. Now, if a high quality vet becomes available at a resonable price, then I would nto argue with pursuing one, but only in that case.

Now, the rest of the teams does need some help. Like many, I agree that the biggest area of concern is the O-line. Unless a super stud LT is available, though, this is probably not high first round draft area. We need a lot of bodies, though, as none of the ones we have are getting it done consistently right now. I'd still seriously consider trading down a high pick for more mid-rounders.

Defensive secondary is next on the list, although I think performance would improve here with a change in scheme and better positional coaching. These guys are often available in FA, so I would concentrate there first unless a standout falls to out draft position. Don't reach for them.

We also need a good coverage LB. Our guys are built more for run stopping, not for speed. Leber should not have been let go, but that's water under the bridge. Depth here is also very important.

We could possibly use another DT or two, although that really depends on how the young backups we now have can progress. Ballard in particular shows some promise. We could also use more DE depth.

We might need to look for a RB. Peterson should still be good for a few more years yet, but I don't think either Gerhardt or Booker are full-time starter material, at least not yet.

Those are my thoughts on our needs. Commentary is welcome.

marstc09
11-20-2011, 04:25 PM
What happened to those people that claimed a young and mobile QB would fix our OL? *snicker*
Another theory bits the dust. Annnnd another one gone and another one gone, another one bits the dust.

Even Hutch was getting lit up! They flat out suck.

I was not sold on Ponder when we drafted him....he is not helping me change my mind.

How does this team expect to fill out a new fancy stadium? This season is not helping. I am afraid this ship is sinking. Is Wilf even going to spend money on this team in the offseason? It does not look good my friends.

Traveling_Vike
11-20-2011, 04:25 PM
I almost forgot Receiver... help is needed there as well, but even one fast field-stretcher with good hands would make a huge difference.

Freakout
11-20-2011, 04:52 PM
Now, the rest of the teams does need some help. Like many, I agree that the biggest area of concern is the O-line. Unless a super stud LT is available, though, this is probably not high first round draft area. We need a lot of bodies, though, as none of the ones we have are getting it done consistently right now. I'd still seriously consider trading down a high pick for more mid-rounders.

With the way we are playing we will most likely have a chance of drafting Matt Kalil.

Purple Floyd
11-20-2011, 04:57 PM
The secondary has not had an INT since Oct 9th.

It is pretty hard to win with a young QB when you cannot get the ball in their hands and when you can't stop drives.

battleaxe4cheese
11-20-2011, 05:10 PM
Terrible.
O-line gave Ponder an average of .5 seconds to get rid of the ball or run for his life. Our secondary is horrible and it shows. Linebacking play is mediocre at best and not much to smile about. EJ has lost more than a step and Greenway has been a non factor for most of the year...

Robison is doing next to nothing on the end and teams are just going to double up/chip JA all day long with little regard for Robison on the other side.

Ponder had a rough game, but appears to have the ability to mentally bounce back and make plays after stupid picks. I would be more critical of him at this point, but look what his supporting cast is for crying out loud. Our receivers have the shiftiness of a three toed sloth. Our o-line is one of the worst in the league, and to top it off AP gets hurt and were stuck with a running back who should of never been drafted at that position. No offense to Toby, but he is just too slow and is better suited as a fullback or something.

Coaching staff is doing the best they can with the little talent that is on this team. That being said, I am not sure that they are the answer and am leaning on the side of no. We need a GM and a fresh start...but then again they may be gone after this year. What a mess.

I have been watching the Vikes since I was a little guy and I can't remember them having this little talent and being this mediocre. Oh well, we had some good years also.

i_bleed_purple
11-20-2011, 05:52 PM
Ugh, collectively one of the worst games of the season, yes, that includes the Packers and Bears game.

Coaching was a complete joke. Two end-arounds to Harvin in a row? Even a 12 year old could tell you that's a bad idea. Musgrave is tryign to get too cute with playcalling, and it bites us in the ass.

By position:

QB: C- Had some good moments, had some bad. Going to be tough to get a score higher than C+ behind this OL though. When he's not throwing interceptions, he's getting hit. Dude needs a bit of time. I still stand by the claim we need a vet this season. With the exception of a few very nice throws, he was still wildly inaccurate.

RB: C AP started good, but Gerhart flat out sucks. Hated the draft pick, was willing to give him time as a player, but he's just not impressing. Would help to have some blocking though. Hope AP comes back, we might not win a game without him.

WR: C+ With the exception of Harvin, this was pitiful. Drops by almost everyone, poor routes, miscommunication between them and the QB. Just bad all around.

OL: F Please, please, PLEASE, hire an OL coach, and can everybody on the line. I'm sure just a center, QB and stacking 7 guys on the line near the sideline would yeild similar results as far as time to pass goes.

D: C+ Not great, not completely awful. some good pressure, a few breakdowns against the run, but a few very nice plays as well.

LB: B- our strength this game for sure. EJ/Greenway both getting in on sacks, everyone stepping up. Loved seeing Onatolu starting, didn't have an outstanding game, but nice to know he can play if called upon.

CB C Improvement over last week, but that's not saying much. Saw Benny alot early on with success, not sure if he stayed in or what.

S: C+ Probably a case of "no news is good news" No big plays, didn't really see them being picked on much here. Hopefully it's because they were doing their job pretty well

K: B+ Smart move by Longwell on the non-kick. A block is a likely TD. The sack is an 10 yard loss. I have to wonder though, having kicked before, the kicker should have his focus 100% on the ball and trust his line will block. Why was he watching the guy coming around the edge?

P: B+ decent peformance by Kluwe as usual. good hangtime, good distance

Coverage: D. Fortunately, no huge plays, but they were just off. Missed tackles, not sticking to lanes. With the decent kickoffs and punts we had, we should have left them with much worse field position than we were.

battleaxe4cheese
11-20-2011, 06:00 PM
What's sad is the fact that based on remaining schedule I can't see us winning more than one more game. 3-13 is not good. Who knows what will happen in the off season. Maybe the end of the Vikes. Maybe Frazier is gone. Not much to look forward to at this point.

jrjohn
11-20-2011, 06:07 PM
What happened to those people that claimed a young and mobile QB would fix our OL? *snicker*
.

They probably would have been right, problem is that quarterback is playing for the seahawks.

Caine
11-20-2011, 06:25 PM
What's sad is the fact that based on remaining schedule I can't see us winning more than one more game. 3-13 is not good. Who knows what will happen in the off season. Maybe the end of the Vikes. Maybe Frazier is gone. Not much to look forward to at this point.

Frazier won't be gone. He's still in the honeymoon period - he has at LEAST another season to go...likely two...before he's fired.

On the PRO side, Ponder showed some nice poise, despite a 3-pick day. He seems to have taken control of the Offense, and obviously doesn't rely on Peterson to make things happen for him (unlike a former QB we had). I think if we put some complimentary pieces around him, we might be alright in the future.

On the CON side, I was disappointed with the Defense's apparent lack of ability to stop Oakland...ever. They got steamrolled...just like last week. And it's happening in all phases of the Defensive game. Beat at the line, beat at the 2nd tier (LB's), and beat in the secondary. Granted, Ponder's 3 picks didn't do them any favors, but this unit has struggled to stop anyone lately.

We need a lot of help.

Caine

marstc09
11-20-2011, 06:34 PM
They probably would have been right, problem is that quarterback is playing for the seahawks.

Worst post of the year. Seriously, go away. You are a Packer fan and nobody gives a shit about your comments.

skum
11-20-2011, 07:08 PM
We would have won today had Adrian played 4 quarters.. I think thats pretty safe to say.. However Toby showed today that he isnt worth that 2nd round pick we used on him and it against goes to sum up the bad job this front office has done on bringing talent in outside of the first round the last 5 years

Freakout
11-20-2011, 07:14 PM
We would have won today had Adrian played 4 quarters.. I think thats pretty safe to say.. However Toby showed today that he isnt worth that 2nd round pick we used on him and it against goes to sum up the bad job this front office has done on bringing talent in outside of the first round the last 5 years

Actually a 2nd and 3rd on Gerhart.

singersp
11-20-2011, 07:31 PM
On the CON side, I was disappointed with the Defense's apparent lack of ability to stop Oakland...ever. They got steamrolled...just like last week. And it's happening in all phases of the Defensive game. Beat at the line, beat at the 2nd tier (LB's), and beat in the secondary. Granted, Ponder's 3 picks didn't do them any favors, but this unit has struggled to stop anyone lately.

We need a lot of help.

Caine

Lito Sheppard had a decent game.

Oh snap! He plays for Oakland now.

MossMems
11-20-2011, 07:56 PM
We would have won today had Adrian played 4 quarters.. I think thats pretty safe to say.. However Toby showed today that he isnt worth that 2nd round pick we used on him and it against goes to sum up the bad job this front office has done on bringing talent in outside of the first round the last 5 years

Actually Ponder with his 2 redzone INTs lost us this game.

And your right, Toby was a waste of a 2nd. Was there really a 3rd pick involved?

thorshammer
11-20-2011, 09:48 PM
I hate seeing us loose. But I was encouraged that we fought back. Ponder shows some promise. He made some rookie mistakes but I guess I can let that slide ...... he is a rookie. Saw some improvement on the D .... still playing in the fourth quarter. Too many dropped balls. O line just sucked again. To me o line needs a total rework. I look back at the previous games and there were only two blow outs we were in most of the games. Very frustrating season so far. Still love the vikings as I have since year one in the league.

Reignman
11-20-2011, 10:17 PM
Seriously, why can't we win games like this when we have a chance at the end? This is the 4th or 5th game this year where we had the ball at the end and were a good drive away from stealing a victory, but we always fail. We certainly seem to lose many games when the situation is reversed, so why can't we ever turn the tables? Our bend n break defense always breaks, but when we go against the bend n break D, it doesn't seem like we can even get it to bend. It's always 4 n out. We can't even get the garbage yards like so many teams get against us.

Minniman
11-20-2011, 11:38 PM
Why pick on Toby Gerhart? The Vikings offensive line blocks poorly for Adrian Peterson, and Peterson gets yards where many backs cannot. Gerhart is capable enough if the blocks are there. He is no AD, but we may be asking too much to think Gerhart will be. That stated, the second best running back the Vikings have is Percy Harvin.

If the Vikings would actually run a Bill Walsh style WCO with both Gerhart and Peterson in the game as weapons, I suspect we would see better results for both Gerhart and Peterson. Gerhart would make a pretty good Tom Rathman type player. Then again, the Vikings backs and TE's are woeful blockers, so one has to ask if it would make any difference if the coaching stays the same.

As far as running backs are concerned, I am still PO'd that the Vikings drafted Ciatrick Fason over Darren Sproles. The Vikings would likely have let Sproles go in free agency anyway, but the memory of watching Rodgers, Barber, and then Sproles not get drafted by the Vikings in 2005 still upsets me. Troy Williamson? Dustin Fox? Ciatrick Fason? All three were reaches on my board, and Erasmus James had been injured in college. When Rodgers went to the arch-rival Packers, I was livid. Over the next few years I had hoped that I was wrong about him. It is too bad I wasn't wrong about him, or Sproles, or a bunch of offensive linemen that fell into the Vikings drafting slot only to have the Vikings braintrust draft another stiff.

The Packers are where they are because they draft well, are coached well, and know that the offensive line and DB's are worth more than they are given credit for in the NFL. The Vikings have neglected both areas, and they have paid the price. The Packers also got lucky enough to have a Hall of Fame quarterback show a young quarterback how to play in the NFL, but that was after they were smart enough to know that that young player was good enough to be drafted even though they already had a star player at that position.

The loss to the Raiders was more than the game day preparation. It was more than the gameplan drawn up on Monday. It is a culmination of mistake the Vikings have made over several years, and there is not much the Vikings can do in the short run to change it. They cannot redraft or resign players missed. They cannot change out coaches at this point in the season. They cannot bring in a young quarterback ready for the NFL, an offensive line to block for him, and receivers to catch passes from him.

skum
11-21-2011, 02:01 AM
It wasnt my intention to say Gerhart is a bad player, but he came at a pretty big price in my eyes and he hasnt proven enough to warant that and if its because blocking is poor, maybe the front office should have used the pick on an offensive lineman instead..

Runningbacks can be found anywhere at this point, im sure that if we plugged a guy like my boy Caleb King of the PS he would produce just as much as Toby is doing right now and he was an undrafted free agent..

We have invested our picks is wrong players and wrong position these past few years and thats why we are losing right now.

Caine
11-21-2011, 06:31 AM
I actually have no grudge with Gerhardt. I think he's a tough runner who plays a solid game.

He's no Peterson, but then no one is.

That said, I like Toby in the game, but would like to see more 2-back combo's versus the "Either or" style our brain trust runs...

Caine

singersp
11-21-2011, 06:36 AM
We would have won today had Adrian played 4 quarters.. I think thats pretty safe to say..

I don't think it's safe to say that at all & disagree with it.

Oakland scored 10 points off of Ponder's interceptions, another 7 after Booker fumbled a KO return and another 7 after Kluwe/Longwell botched the FG try.

ConnecticutViking
11-21-2011, 08:08 AM
Same old, Same old.... The secondary, linebackers, o-line, d-line, injuries, rookie QB, turnovers, receivers, coaching, second half adjustments... What it really comes down to is, we are not that good. Plain and simple.

Minniman
11-21-2011, 08:52 AM
It wasnt my intention to say Gerhart is a bad player, but he came at a pretty big price in my eyes and he hasnt proven enough to warant that and if its because blocking is poor, maybe the front office should have used the pick on an offensive lineman instead..

Runningbacks can be found anywhere at this point, im sure that if we plugged a guy like my boy Caleb King of the PS he would produce just as much as Toby is doing right now and he was an undrafted free agent..

We have invested our picks is wrong players and wrong position these past few years and thats why we are losing right now.

I agree. Paying a third rounder to move up in the second round to draft Gerhart was madness. Paying to move up for Jackson was not a great move. Paying a third round with no conditions pick for Moss was foolery.

The first round picks get all the attention, and late round sleepers get some press, but great teams are often built in the second and third rounds. Those picks have much more value than the Vikings have given them. The Vikings personnel guys refuse to let sleepers sleep until later rounds or even move up for reaches because the player was overvalued on the Vikings' board.

The Vikings traded up for Gerhart, who would likely have been there later. The Packers traded into the first round to pick up Clay Matthews, and the Lions traded up to pick up Jahvid Best. Both players had fallen, and were good value, whereas Gerhart was not.

The Vikings did get draft value in 2009 with Harvin and Loadholt, but they have made strange moves in other drafts including a trade that allowed a division rival, Detroit, to draft into the first round to pick up Best.

Minniman
11-21-2011, 10:02 AM
We have invested our picks is wrong players and wrong position these past few years and thats why we are losing right now.

Consider this, Jared Veldheer, the OT that shut down Jared Allen and has only given up two sacks this season, was drafted by the Raiders in round three. If the Vikings had stayed put, they could have drafted Veldheer and may have had Gerhart still on the board in round three or would have been able to use less valuable picks to move up for him if they still wanted to.

Of course, the draft is a crapshoot, and the Raiders got great value with Veldheer, but it shows that one team did their homework and the other did not.

Recall that the Vikings had already lost out on the players that they thought would fall to them in the first round and had moved out of that round because they failed to make a move early on. They were played like a bad poker player trying to get back into the game by making the move for Gerhart. Drafting Gerhart some place in the draft wasn't a bad move, but giving up so much for him was.

With Veldheer, the Vikings also failed to see that McKinnie was not a great player, so it is unlikely they would have drafted Veldheer anyway - no matter how he had been graded. The Vikings have done far too much drafting for position rather than drafting the best player available. In the long run, that is a losing formula.

As I stated above, the Raiders game was, in some part, lost because of those draft moves two years ago.

Zeus
11-21-2011, 10:09 AM
Two end-arounds to Harvin in a row?

I'll take "Things that piss me off when announcers say them" for $800, Alex.

Dear God, the next time I hear an announcer call an end-around a "reverse" I'm going to pop a vein in my forehead.

=Z=

Minniman
11-21-2011, 10:29 AM
I'll take "Things that piss me off when announcers say them" for $800, Alex.

Dear God, the next time I hear an announcer call an end-around a "reverse" I'm going to pop a vein in my forehead.

I agree.

Some of the announcers never played, coached, or really know the game as much as they pretend they do. For former players or coaches, there is no excuse.

jargomcfargo
11-21-2011, 12:16 PM
Consider this, Jared Veldheer, the OT that shut down Jared Allen and has only given up two sacks this season, was drafted by the Raiders in round three. If the Vikings had stayed put, they could have drafted Veldheer and may have had Gerhart still on the board in round three or would have been able to use less valuable picks to move up for him if they still wanted to.

Of course, the draft is a crapshoot, and the Raiders got great value with Veldheer, but it shows that one team did their homework and the other did not.

Recall that the Vikings had already lost out on the players that they thought would fall to them in the first round and had moved out of that round because they failed to make a move early on. They were played like a bad poker player trying to get back into the game by making the move for Gerhart. Drafting Gerhart some place in the draft wasn't a bad move, but giving up so much for him was.

With Veldheer, the Vikings also failed to see that McKinnie was not a great player, so it is unlikely they would have drafted Veldheer anyway - no matter how he had been graded. The Vikings have done far too much drafting for position rather than drafting the best player available. In the long run, that is a losing formula.

As I stated above, the Raiders game was, in some part, lost because of those draft moves two years ago.

Great post. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Spielman who should have exited along with Childress.

skum
11-21-2011, 01:08 PM
I don't think it's safe to say that at all & disagree with it.

Oakland scored 10 points off of Ponder's interceptions, another 7 after Booker fumbled a KO return and another 7 after Kluwe/Longwell botched the FG try.

Adrian would have ran up and down on that Oakland defence, that also takes away some passes from Ponder and opens up pass game in general, playaction etc. You could proberly wipe away some of those INT's.

Johnson14
11-21-2011, 02:23 PM
I don't think it's safe to say that at all & disagree with it.

Oakland scored 10 points off of Ponder's interceptions, another 7 after Booker fumbled a KO return and another 7 after Kluwe/Longwell botched the FG try.

Fair point there Singer..

I have ZERO confidence in Ponder right now, he has serious accuracy issues.

delviking
11-21-2011, 02:30 PM
AP was doing good till the injury, Ponder showed heart behind a line that cant block, The 1st Int in the redzone would have abeen a TD to D'Imperio I think, but since our LT cant sustain a block for even a milli second he had to get flushed out to the right. now yes the Int is on Ponder but he was trying to salvage a win outta nothing and came damn near close to it. once again 5 TOs and we lose by 6 and the key for the victory was in our OFF hand for once. yeah we came up short it sucks but we will never really know what ponder can or cant do till we have a Line that can block. im a true believer in game are won and lost in the trenches. ill be rather pissed if we go another Offseaon and dont address every spot on the line LT to RT. it need to be a free for all the best 5 win not by name but by deed.

Nitrostangs
11-21-2011, 03:18 PM
AP was doing good till the injury, Ponder showed heart behind a line that cant block, The 1st Int in the redzone would have abeen a TD to D'Imperio I think, but since our LT cant sustain a block for even a milli second he had to get flushed out to the right. now yes the Int is on Ponder but he was trying to salvage a win outta nothing and came damn near close to it. once again 5 TOs and we lose by 6 and the key for the victory was in our OFF hand for once. yeah we came up short it sucks but we will never really know what ponder can or cant do till we have a Line that can block. im a true believer in game are won and lost in the trenches. ill be rather pissed if we go another Offseaon and dont address every spot on the line LT to RT. it need to be a free for all the best 5 win not by name but by deed.

You are absolutely right, we have to run roll outs on every play because our offensive line can't hold blocks. In addition is the fact Ponder doesn't have the greatest weapons to throw to. I knew going into this season that is was going to be a poor offensive season when our starting Wideouts are Micheal Jenkins and Devin Aromashdu. The offensive line can only hold off the pass rushers for so long. Ponder just can't seem to find anyone open. Young receivers are not working back to the ball either.

It appears as thought we need major help via draft at Safety, Corner, Offensive Line, Receiver. I really don't see any reason to win another game this season.