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Purple Floyd
11-14-2011, 10:34 PM
Well, the game isn't officially over but it has been over since the first quarter so here it goes.


This has to be one of the least disciplined, worst coached, worst organized teams I have seen in decades. While Frazier got a pass for a while, he has nearly a season under his belt now and what I see is a team that is consistently out of position and outplayed time after time.

They fail to take away the strength of the teams they face and they do not play to their own strengths as well. They have breakdowns on offense, they have breakdowns on defense and they have breakdowns on special teams and that all points back to coaching. Penalties, broken coverages, poor pass protection, poor pass defense and right down the line.

I understand that the team is down on talent and I had no expectations of them winning a lot of games this year because of it, but the lack of coaching and execution that is leading to plays that we should be able to defend or at least minimize is not acceptable and the way they are getting punched in the mouth without punching back makes me sick to my stomach.

Other than that Go Vikings!:rofl:

marstc09
11-14-2011, 10:39 PM
Same problems, different week.

OL is the worst in the league
Secondary is the worst in the league

LIVike
11-14-2011, 10:40 PM
The secondary sucks my god are they terrible. Its amazing that Rodgers actually threw an incompletion. D line looked ok. Allen had another performance. O line sucks if anything this proved it even more. Peterson for the most part still cant pick up a block. Ponder was mediocre but what a surprise when he is almost always under pressure. Stupid penalties killed us again. Also play Rudolph god damnit the guy can make plays I dont understand why he is on the field 10 plays a game.

I agree with purple floyd. Its like every week they seem unprepared and have no motivation to win and its pathetic.

Purple Floyd
11-14-2011, 10:48 PM
To me the refs seemed worse than usual tonight. The no call on the PI against Shank, then Percy gets offensive PI on that long catch, then the Packers have a blatant offensive PI against Asher that doesn't get called and then Asher gets called on a PI that is less obvious than what was called against shank. The packers were going to win and didn't need the help so I have to question the inconsistency on the calls. If the game was in question I could understand it but in this case? Not necessary.

MulletMullitia
11-14-2011, 10:55 PM
This was the worst game of Phil Loadholts career. He almost got Ponder killed on multiple occasions. Not only do we need a LT, but we need a RT too! If we are on the clock and Blackmon is still available, can we afford to pass him up? Or do we have to draft the best available LT in the first round?

Purple Floyd
11-14-2011, 10:55 PM
Come on MM and Smegma- Tell us how you really feel.:punch:

i_bleed_purple
11-14-2011, 10:55 PM
That was just painful. Everything PF has said so far, plus more.

I swear to god, if Marty says that our OL or DB's play "Damn fine", I will somehow find a way to slap him through my computer. They are possibly some of the worst int he league. No exaggeration here whatsoever.

By position:

QB: D-
Wow, that was bad. Ponder was not accurate, he's shown he STILL can not figure out how to throw a deep ball. He has no pocket awareness, no mental clock, nothing like that. yeah, that stuff comes with time, but this is a perfect example of why I've been saying we needed to sign a vet. Fairly obvious that on the big stage, he's not ready. Now, granted our OL didn't do him any favours at all, but it goes both ways. Ponder runs around so much, the OL are chasing him 10 yards deep to try and make a block. Ponder needs to learn to throw it away, or get yards. Watch Rodgers, when he scrambles to buy time, he's not running 10 yards deep, he's moving laterally or forwards. Very rarely runs backwards. Ponder is far from ready to lead a winning team, tonight showed that. Against one of the poorer pass defenses in the league, he couldn't do a thing.

RB: C+ All things considered, AP played well. Needs more carries and I'm sure he would have done just fine. Plays as hard as always. Couple nice carries by Gerhart and Harvin. Booker looks like he has no clue out there.

FB: F D'Imperio... why is he still on the team? Slight improvement over Tahi, but not much

TE: C. Aside from some nice Rudolph Grabs once we stuck the backups in (why doesn't he play more through the game anyway?), really nothing to write home about. Poor blocking, not much for route running, not getting open, not really involved

OL: F- Loadholt getting toasted on a regular basis, nobody else looking much better.

DL: D WTF went on today? Some decent pass rushing at times, but at other times, nothing. Allen looked slow off the ball many times, Evans is pure garbage, KW can't handle triple teams, Robison mostly shut down on single blocks. And the neutural zone infractions?

LB: C Not much better. Effectivea t times on blitzes, ok in coverage, but lost at times as well.

DB: F falling down, missing assignments, can't cover, can't tackle (exception of Winfield). Letting guys drag you for 15 yards and a TD. our DB's are BRUTAL. Wish Cook was back.

K: B Meh, not sure why we went for that 52 yarder, barely made the 47 into the wind, kicking after the 5 yard penalty was purely stupid on Fraizers part. Not blaming Longwell too much for that one.

P: B ok punting, really nice one at the 2 yard line, too bad our D couldn't take advantage.

Coaching: D My patience with fraizer is really running thin. This team is as undisciplined as they come. Same penalties over and over again, PI, Neutural zone, PI, Neutural zone. You'd think they'd do something to work on that. some poor decisions, and otherwise just unpreparedness. You'd think after a week off, the coaches at least wouldl have a solid gameplan. Not so much.

remember those folks saying we're an 11 win team this season?

I sure do.

thorshammer
11-14-2011, 10:58 PM
Our offensive line absolutely sucks. Ponder and AD didn't have a chance. Our entire secondary sucks, can't make a play at all. We have some decent players in spots but the holes are glaring. Our D-line didn't play bad. We could compete if we had an o-line and a secondary but until we fix those it's going to be hard to watch. I just hope Ponder doesn't get killed before we get him some blocking. The stupid mistakes and unfocused play are unforgivable when you don't have a lot of talent in the first place. Our fundamentals and execution suck. I am really beginning to doubt this coaching staff.

jargomcfargo
11-14-2011, 11:01 PM
There is so little talent on this team, yet Spielman remains.
Instead of finding a head coach with experience we have Frazier.
Simple fact is, the Wilfs don't know what they are doing.
They are well intentioned and want to win badly, but they need to hire a GM with a proven track record.

C Mac D
11-14-2011, 11:09 PM
There should have been an offensive facemask on Jordy Nelson's first TD... but that's about par for the course for a Monday Night game in Green Bay.

i_bleed_purple
11-14-2011, 11:12 PM
My concern is this game badly exposed Ponder.

His only asset under pressure is speed. He can escape a bad situation, which is good, but he's not shown the ability to throw on the run yet. He only really throws accurately when he sets his feet, and with our OL, that doesn't happen often.

The blueprint to shut down Ponder is:

A-gap blitz. Mix up who comes, but collapse that pocket making him run. If he tries to pass, he's not tall enough to get over the line, so short bullet passes should be easy enough to bat down at the line. Especially since our OL has no comprehension of what "Passing lanes" mean.

Contain the edge: have a pass rusher or LB with contain duties. Hell, even a Corner, just make sure he can't get outside you to the sideline.

Force him to make quick decisions. If he has to throw farther than 5 yards under pressure or on the run, it's inaccurate. He just doesn't seem to have developed that mental clock yet, so he has to see the pressure coming to react. Hit him when he's not looking if you want to get in his head.

He managed (barely) in the last two games because we were not playing good teams. GB has been the first team that can consistently get after the QB. they rattled him early on, making it difficult for him to do much of anything. Watch our last GB game and this one, their defensive gameplan was much, much different.

Seems they were keying in on the middle of the field. TE's, slot and outside receivers coming across the middle. They seemed content on loose coverage on the outside because a) Ponder didn't seem able to find them open and b) he couldn't really hit them. If he does, then they give up 15 yards. That happened far less than it should have.

i_bleed_purple
11-14-2011, 11:14 PM
There should have been an offensive facemask on Jordy Nelson's first TD... but that's about par for the course for a Monday Night game in Green Bay.

Yep

That and there should have been a facemask on another play that woudl have given us a first down.

Offensive PI on Harvin was legit, but multiple missed PI calls on the packers. Easy PI calls. One on Shank early on, one push off on Asher, probably another I'm not thinking of.

Webby
11-14-2011, 11:28 PM
Ugh.

Webby
11-14-2011, 11:29 PM
My concern is this game badly exposed Ponder.

His only asset under pressure is speed. He can escape a bad situation, which is good, but he's not shown the ability to throw on the run yet. He only really throws accurately when he sets his feet, and with our OL, that doesn't happen often.

The blueprint to shut down Ponder is:

A-gap blitz. Mix up who comes, but collapse that pocket making him run. If he tries to pass, he's not tall enough to get over the line, so short bullet passes should be easy enough to bat down at the line. Especially since our OL has no comprehension of what "Passing lanes" mean.

Contain the edge: have a pass rusher or LB with contain duties. Hell, even a Corner, just make sure he can't get outside you to the sideline.

Force him to make quick decisions. If he has to throw farther than 5 yards under pressure or on the run, it's inaccurate. He just doesn't seem to have developed that mental clock yet, so he has to see the pressure coming to react. Hit him when he's not looking if you want to get in his head.

He managed (barely) in the last two games because we were not playing good teams. GB has been the first team that can consistently get after the QB. they rattled him early on, making it difficult for him to do much of anything. Watch our last GB game and this one, their defensive gameplan was much, much different.

Seems they were keying in on the middle of the field. TE's, slot and outside receivers coming across the middle. They seemed content on loose coverage on the outside because a) Ponder didn't seem able to find them open and b) he couldn't really hit them. If he does, then they give up 15 yards. That happened far less than it should have.

Cmon. No exposure no more than a rookie or any other game in which an OL allows you to get spanked. Nothing special to see here other than a straight beating of a QB with no receivers, no line, and there is little to say Ponder cost us anything.

jrjohn
11-14-2011, 11:32 PM
I don't think the Vikings have that bad of a team. The problem is they just played the best team in the NFL. Things will get better next week, much better. Pulling Rodgers with nearly a quarter of football left and having the backup score a TD was just plain dirty.

singersp
11-14-2011, 11:47 PM
To me the refs seemed worse than usual tonight. The no call on the PI against Shank, then Percy gets offensive PI on that long catch, then the Packers have a blatant offensive PI against Asher that doesn't get called and then Asher gets called on a PI that is less obvious than what was called against shank. The packers were going to win and didn't need the help so I have to question the inconsistency on the calls. If the game was in question I could understand it but in this case? Not necessary.

Was I the only one who saw Rodgers talking to the ref before the game, patting him on the back & being all chummy with him?

Lets also not forget the non-interception by the Packers that the refs tried giving to them anyway. Clearly the receiver was all ready down & if anything it was closer to being a reception than it was an interception. Good thing the replay clearly showed it as incomplete. If they would have given that ball to GB after all the other BS, I wouldn't have blamed Frazier one bit if he would have taken the team & left the field.

singersp
11-14-2011, 11:57 PM
Blaming the OL & receiving corp. My this sounds familiar.

poisoning16
11-14-2011, 11:58 PM
I don't think the Vikings have that bad of a team. The problem is they just played the best team in the NFL. Things will get better next week, much better. Pulling Rodgers with nearly a quarter of football left and having the backup score a TD was just plain dirty.

Plain dirty by the Pack? Not sure what they are supposed to do there? They took out their starters up big and the Vikes still were unable to stop Matt Flynn. that's on them

i_bleed_purple
11-15-2011, 12:05 AM
Cmon. No exposure no more than a rookie or any other game in which an OL allows you to get spanked. Nothing special to see here other than a straight beating of a QB with no receivers, no line, and there is little to say Ponder cost us anything.

Gonna disagree.

It did reveal some tendencies from Ponder that the limited amount of plays he's had so far has not.

In College, he was a great player, so tough to gameplan based on that footage.

This game showed a successful way to slow down Ponder.

And you mention our OL making it tough for him, which is absolutely true. But unfortuantely for Ponder, he plays behind that same OL the rest of the season.

I never said Ponder straight up cost us the game. He didn't help us, but you're right in that he wasn't the deciding factor. That was however by far his worst game, and the Packers found something to do on defense to really limit us.

I expect that will be copied by most of our future opponents. not all will be able to duplicate that success, but some will.

Freakout
11-15-2011, 12:07 AM
I just have to disagree about Ponder. Especially the unable to throw on the move which is utter bull crap. Still he had a bad game.

I thought Musgrave called a bad game. We were trying too hard to go for the homerun throw instead of just taking our time and marching down the field.

Truth is our Offensive line was bad. I thought Sully was actually pretty solid but Berger and Loadholt really got chewed up. Charlie Johnson was burned some as well. Peterson also was pretty pathetic about picking up blitz's. Re-model is required.

The lack of a true #1 receiver really stands out. A couple of Ponder's deep throws were not bad. He gave the receiver a chance to make a play but Percy and Devin are incapable of making those plays. That is where losing Rice really hurts us.

The defensive line was not awful (Allen was awesome) but yet again I see nothing out of the DT often lined up beside Kevin. Ballard had his name called some but Evans, Adoyele, and Guion are garbage. Robison has disappeared.

Our DB's are awful, Winfield included.

Green Bay was really ready for this game. They did a great job in using Woodson to confuse Ponder (reminded of the way we used AW on Vick last year). Really moved Matthews around as well as bringing corner blitz's. Ponder has to learn to audible out of some of that but no rookie QB is ready for what GB threw out tonight.

This teams needs gutted. New WR, LT, LG, RG, RT, DT, RDE, MLB, entire new secondary.

skum
11-15-2011, 12:08 AM
This game just shows how bad this franchise has been run for many years now.

We have so many needs and won't be a factor for a few years, i hate the Packers but they are on the verge of building a dynasty in a league where Manning and Brady are declining as players, Rodgers is still young and could take over the league..

We have let players like Rice walk, cut McKinnie and now have major needs at their positions..

Some of our key players are getting up there in age and we need to look into who is going to replace them long-term.. (Winfield, Hutchinson, KWilliams)..

We have put 2nd string guys in starting spots at safety, wide reciever and on the offensive line and this is just the penalty for doing just that. (Abdullah, Sanford, TJohnson, Aromashudo, CJohnson, Sullivan, Berger etc.)

For the draft there is no question, we just need to take the best player availible, being at OL, WR, DB or whatever.. whoever ranks highest on our board, pick him.

The Green Bay Packers are an example of building a team trough the draft as i think all but 3 starters on their team was drafted by them.. We have a lot of work to do and Green Bay are way better, but that just makes me hate them even more so F*** the pack and lets get to work.

singersp
11-15-2011, 12:26 AM
Our Cover 2 should be changed to cover 5 as there never seems to be anyone within 5 yards of a receiver. Rodgers made a couple of nice throws, but lets be honest here, hitting receivers that wide open was a cake walk for Rodgers.

Austin LaVerne Madesian
11-15-2011, 12:35 AM
Well, the game isn't officially over but it has been over since the first quarter so here it goes.


This has to be one of the least disciplined, worst coached, worst organized teams I have seen in decades. While Frazier got a pass for a while, he has nearly a season under his belt now and what I see is a team that is consistently out of position and outplayed time after time.


My thoughts exactly. The obviousness of the coaching problems is the insane amount of penalties.

i also think that the two most important areas that need to be completely overhauled are the OL and the Secondary.

Loadholt looked like a little kid tonight against mathews. Johnson just isnt getting things done, Hutch is getting old and won't be able to perform well for much longer. Sullivan is a backup center at best and Herrara has never been the answer at RG. An obvious first round pick would be at LT if there is a good enough one coming out that would justify a top 5 pick.

The secondary has been the ultimate embarrassment of this team over the last two years. Chris Cook is probably done with the vikings, asher allen is just terrible, fast but terrible, Griffen has probably been too affected by his knee injuries to ever really live up to the potential he had when he came into the league, Winfield is the only DB worth talking about and he is living out the last year or two of his career. (Plus he's out for the year with a broken collarbone). They need to sign a big name free agent or make a blockbuster trade here, because their drafting abilities at this position have proved to be terrible.

overall the whole team needs an overhaul. they need to start by firing the coaching staff, hiring a GM that knows what hes talking about and admit that they're rebuilding.

seaniemck7
11-15-2011, 12:36 AM
5 targets two weeks ago for AD and plenty of production. So where the F was that this week? The Packers were coming at Ponder hard. I don't understand how we can't run an Fing screen play with Peterson. It boggles my mind. I want to slap Musgrave at times.

D'Imperio is garbage.

Ponder had zero time to throw. They may not be the worst but our OL has got to be the most inconsistent blocking unit in the league.

DL played well enough. Rodgers is playing out of his mind. Any other QB would have been sacked 5 times or more tonight.

Asher Allen is garbage.

Can we give the best offense in the league any more freebies with dumbass penalties? Offsides on a FG and a KO? WTF?

Leslie needs to bust some heads. He needs to start with Musgrave.

C Mac D
11-15-2011, 01:08 AM
5 targets two weeks ago for AD and plenty of production. So where the F was that this week? The Packers were coming at Ponder hard. I don't understand how we can't run an Fing screen play with Peterson. It boggles my mind. I want to slap Musgrave at times.

D'Imperio is garbage.

Ponder had zero time to throw. They may not be the worst but our OL has got to be the most inconsistent blocking unit in the league.

DL played well enough. Rodgers is playing out of his mind. Any other QB would have been sacked 5 times or more tonight.

Asher Allen is garbage.

Can we give the best offense in the league any more freebies with dumbass penalties? Offsides on a FG and a KO? WTF?

Leslie needs to bust some heads. He needs to start with Musgrave.

You really hit the nail on the head here.

Why are we still trying to force a LB at the FB position in D'imperio? It's clearly not working out, yet we cut players like Allen Reisner... who looked great in camp. Not saying Reisner's going to be awesome, but he's GOT to be better than D'imperio.

We completely ignored Peterson in the passing game when it proved successful the week before. Some serious head-scratching moments. Honestly wondering if this coaching staff has the ability to create an effective gameplan.

To be honest, I think the entire coaching staff has to go. We need to get rid of everyone leftover from the Childress era. Speilman too.

MulletMullitia
11-15-2011, 04:11 AM
Ponder got thrown to the wolves tonight. Our line hasn't played well, but this was their worst game of the season. He had less than a second to throw every single pass. I also would like to completely disagree with IBP about the throwing on the run comment. He has shown that he can throw very well on the run. I would even go as far as to say that it's one of his strong suits. He just doesn't have anybody to throw to. It's gonna be really hard to judge the kid until we get him a #1 WR and a couple book end tackles. Loadholt and Johnson are going to get him killed out there. His escapability only takes him so far. He can't shake off every single blitzer, as he showed tonight.

Dfoster
11-15-2011, 04:57 AM
Man, I hate these nail-biter games. :crazy:

I'd comment further, but I have to get busy

on a bit of art work for Uffda.

purplehelmut
11-15-2011, 05:59 AM
We have a long way to go to be able to compete with the Packers. It seems that this franchise is in disarray from the front office on down. Frazier and his staff are in way over their heads from the looks of things. Frazier said, "We've got to make sure we're concentrating." Yeah, that'll do it- think harder. Playing some damn football would be better. I feel sorry for Peterson- he'll be the reissue of Barry Sanders- wasted.

ConnecticutViking
11-15-2011, 06:03 AM
We are who we thought we were...

In short, we suck! Although our drafts have been ok over the years (although I still hate last years draft), we have not done anything in the Free Agent Market to help us at all! Wingfield, Allen, and Hutch? Maybe some others, but Wingfield was a long time ago, as well as Hutch.

The O-line, Defense, and Special teams all played poorly tonight. I'm not throwing Ponder under the bus because A. He had no time, B. He had no running game, C. He is a Rookie and he will have games like this. But guys...The Packers are one of the worst Defenses in the NFL, their offense is their defense. We could only score 7 against them and even that was a gift. This doesn't only come down to lack of talent, this also points to coaching. Penalties, game plan, schemes don't necessarily play to the talent that we have.

I think the powers that be need to go into rebuilding mode, stop picking up retread quarterbacks and build an O-line and Defense that can keep us in the game.

Lastly...Did anyone else notice that Mike Tirico was the only black spectator in the stadium? Didn't realize that Green Bay was so diverse.

singersp
11-15-2011, 06:15 AM
We are who we thought we were...

In short, we suck! Although our drafts have been ok over the years (although I still hate last years draft), we have not done anything in the Free Agent Market to help us at all! Wingfield, Allen, and Hutch? Maybe some others, but Wingfield was a long time ago, as well as Hutch.

Wingfield? Who the hell is Wingfield?

LOL!

ConnecticutViking
11-15-2011, 06:21 AM
Wingfield? Who the hell is Wingfield?

LOL!

Wingfield/Winfield...You know who I mean :)

Reignman
11-15-2011, 06:24 AM
Surprise surprise, prime time game, on the road, outdoors, and another embarrassing performance from the Vikings. We really need to stop playing nationally televised games.

Nobody expected us to win, but Frazier had 15 days to prepare for this game. This was a ridiculous and an inexcusable performance. I really can't believe there's not a fire Frazier thread yet. Like some have already mentioned, the stench of the Childress regime is still here and it needs to go, before it infects more of this franchise.

And seriously, why does it seem like every team solves their glaring problems when they play us? We never take advantage of anything. The Packers D was one of the worst ever, giving up nearly 400 yards per game. If it weren't for a muffed punt, they shut us out 45-0. Is it possible to get shut out after you have 15 days to prepare for one of the worst D's in the league?

I had no problem when they put Flynn in at the end and scored again. Getting your backup some valuable game time reps is nothing but smart coaching. The Vikings should just be that much more ashamed by not even being able to stop the backups.

Marrdro
11-15-2011, 06:32 AM
Don't have time to read all the thread (work is nuts lately) but I'm sure I'll see the same ole same ole.....

OL Sucks. DB's suck.

I'm not sure what was harder, watching a team coming out of the bye week that was totally unprepared to play or to listen to Chucky wax poetic about the PUKERS and completely make lame ass comments such as......

Evans has taken over for Phat Pat. Must not have heard about the Remi project.

Winnfield is our best CB and was starting. Did he notice that Whinny only was on the field for the nickel.

Sanford can't run with a TE when it was actually Whinny that was getting gashed.

PUKERS D-coord was coming up with creative schemes to get pressure. Hell all they did is flood the gaps with 7 and sometimes 8 and drop the others into zones cause all the Vikes did was run buch sets. On a side note, when we did put some WR's on the field we did make some plays.

Long story short, this team was not ready to play. In fact, it is getting worse each week and not better. You can only say that about a couple of teams this year and we are one of them.

I wonder how many on here are calling for Leslie (and the rest of his chuckleheads staff) or are biting your toungues cause you don't want to admit that this guy is absolutely the worst HC this team has ever seen.

Mr. Wilf, I am not one to advocate replacing a HC because it doesn't breed stability at that position, which is critical to winning, but please, for all that is good, do not force us to watch this staff (because you could get it at a bargain basement price) squander what should be a competitive team.

singersp
11-15-2011, 06:51 AM
Loadholt looked like a little kid tonight against Matthews.

Matthews is an OLB. Loadholt is playing against their DE. On the first sack against Ponder, AD was supposed to be there to block, but once again made a feeble effort to do so.

Purple Floyd
11-15-2011, 07:08 AM
Matthews is an OLB. Loadholt is playing against their DE. On the first sack against Ponder, AD was supposed to be there to block, but once again made a feeble effort to do so.

If that is the play I think you are talking about the first guy who screwed up was Diimperio. ( I don't give a rats azz how his name is spelled so don't bother with the "Whos"? Reply. I rewound that and replayed it several times with my wife to show her it wasn't Loadholt.He went past 44, then 28 on his way to 7.


I am now going to take a shot at Peterson.

He got a friggin hundred million dollar contract this year. For a hondo mil I would expect a guy to know how to pick up a blitz and how to catch a screen pass and to relax until a hole opens up and then hit it. If he is incapable of understanding how to pick up a blitz, if he is incapable of properly running a route and executing it, and if after 4 years he is still making rookie mistakes in terms of letting the play develop then he should be traded right away.

If it is a coaching problem as I suspect the entire organization should be reshuffled starting with Wilf stepping back and putting someone in there making decisions that is more interested in beating our rivals than issuing press releases pandering for a public handout on the day of the biggest game of the year.


Marr- As far as the Fire Frazier thing, I stand where I did before. I believe he is in over his head but those above him are also in over their heads and the team needs to fix those spots before they worry about the head coach. But yes, at this point they are no improvement over Childress. That however does not in any way change the fact that Childress was also a failure and should have been gone way earlier too.

singersp
11-15-2011, 07:18 AM
I am now going to take a shot at Peterson.

He got a friggin hundred million dollar contract this year. For a hondo mil I would expect a guy to know how to pick up a blitz and how to catch a screen pass and to relax until a hole opens up and then hit it. If he is incapable of understanding how to pick up a blitz, if he is incapable of properly running a route and executing it, and if after 4 years he is still making rookie mistakes in terms of letting the play develop then he should be traded right away.

I've been harping on his blocking skills or lack thereof for years. Despite popular belief here, a RB's job is to also block on blitzes & AD still can't seem to get it done. That and his mediocre pass catching abilities is why we used Taylor on passing downs.

He's got to do more than just run the ball to earn that money.

Purple Floyd
11-15-2011, 07:25 AM
I've been harping on his blocking skills or lack thereof for years. Despite popular belief here, a RB's job is to also block on blitzes & AD still can't seem to get it done. That and his mediocre pass catching abilities is why we used Taylor on passing downs.

He's got to do more than just run the ball to earn that money.

Yeah, well don't count on it. I believe until the whole organization is gutted ( And that won't happen until they move to LA) nothing will change with him.

VikesfaninWis
11-15-2011, 07:26 AM
Unacceptable. I am so sick and tired of spending money and supporting a team that just doesn't get it. The Vikings are a horrible team plain and simple. They don't just need a player here and a player there, they need a complete rehaul and will not be a good team for another few years at least. They have a bunch of nobody's starting on their OL, DL, Secondary, and WR crew. I am sorry, but a team can't win with players like this.

The worse part? I live and work in Green Bay. I have to take crap from 30 other sales people where I work that will keep it up all week long. Thanks again for that you useless, pathetic, waste of space Minnesota Vikings.

singersp
11-15-2011, 07:29 AM
K-Rud

All he does is catch passes, yet we hardly use him.

Why?


http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011111400/2011/REG10/vikings@packers#menu=highlights&tab=recap

i_bleed_purple
11-15-2011, 09:34 AM
Don't have time to read all the thread (work is nuts lately) but I'm sure I'll see the same ole same ole.....

OL Sucks. DB's suck.

Ah, you noticed that last night too?

jargomcfargo
11-15-2011, 09:42 AM
Unacceptable. The Vikings are a horrible team They have a bunch of nobody's starting on their OL, DL, Secondary, and WR crew.

Successful teams have a GM that can find no name players who can play well. The foundation of a championship team is based on these mid to later round players who can be coached up to play well.
No team can be carried by a few stars, as evidenced by the Vikings.
Unfortunately, the Vikings have some players who are very fortunate to be earning an NFL paycheck, a coaching staff that can't find ways to compensate for their weaknesses, and a VP of player personel that has a poor record of finding later mid to later round players who can significantly contribute.
I feel your pain and have dealt with it on and off for decades.
A move to LA would likely be merciful for Vikings fans.
This is one of the worst Vikings teams ever.

Caine
11-15-2011, 11:31 AM
The fact is, and I can hardly wait to be crucified again for saying this, that the problems we face start AT THE TOP!!!

1: Zygi Wilf has GOT to remove himself and his family from Football decisions. That includes the hiring of head coaches. The Wilf family is not QUALIFIED to know what passes for a quality Head Coach...evidenced by the two they have hired.

2: So, hire a GM. Spend a hell of a lot of money and coax a KNOWN commodity to act as GM for the franchise. Of course, the Wilfs aren't qualified to know a good GM candidate either, so we're in a pickle here.

3: Let the GM clean house and start over. Firing Chiller was a good step, but we needed to clean house completely. Instead, we retained all the unsuccessful elements of Chiller's former regime. Then, those elements acquired the services of head scratchers like Musgrave....WTF?!?!?!?!? We need a better HC. Frazier won't cut it.

4: Start over. I said 4 years ago that we had to strike while we had the building blocks to do so. Well, our building blocks on Defense are all 4 years older now. Winfield, Williams, and Henderson aren't what they used to be...and it shows. Worse, our draft guru's have loaded this team with "talent" which is less capable than the aging guys who are failing to get it done...with very few exceptions.

So, we build the Defense around Greenway, and the Offense around Peterson, Ponder, and Harvin. Everyone else, we replace. We start trading guys with some value off for picks, and we load up with youth...hopefully we can get some talent along the way.

Obviously, this is a broad scope post, not intended as a step by step blueprint. I have over simplified and skipped entire portions of the issue at hand. But we got hammered last night, and it's for the same reasons we were hammered last season - poor coaching, poor scheme, and poor talent acquisition. We fired Chiller, but his hands are all over this team still. Nothing has really changed.

Caine

Marrdro
11-15-2011, 11:34 AM
Ah, you noticed that last night too?
LOL, I noticed bigger problems than those two things my friend. Mostly related to play calling and piss poor interior play on the DL which allowed Rogers to stand back there all day long and pick our poor secondary apart.

Caine
11-15-2011, 11:35 AM
Successful teams have a GM that can find no name players who can play well. The foundation of a championship team is based on these mid to later round players who can be coached up to play well.
No team can be carried by a few stars, as evidenced by the Vikings.
Unfortunately, the Vikings have some players who are very fortunate to be earning an NFL paycheck, a coaching staff that can't find ways to compensate for their weaknesses, and a VP of player personel that has a poor record of finding later mid to later round players who can significantly contribute.
I feel your pain and have dealt with it on and off for decades.
A move to LA would likely be merciful for Vikings fans.
This is one of the worst Vikings teams ever.

Adding to this, successful teams find ways to win AS A TEAM.

Green Bay has a plethora of talented receivers, that allows their TEAM to be successful. They don't rely on one or two guys to get it done.

Teams that rely on an individual are one step away from critical point failure (Indy). We are a team built on individuals. We rely on those individuals to overwhelm opposing teams, and when they do not, we lose.

But team building starts at the top, and our top is clueless. It's going to get worse before it gets better...

Caine

Marrdro
11-15-2011, 11:41 AM
Adding to this, successful teams find ways to win AS A TEAM.

Green Bay has a plethora of talented receivers, that allows their TEAM to be successful. They don't rely on one or two guys to get it done.

Teams that rely on an individual are one step away from critical point failure (Indy). We are a team built on individuals. We rely on those individuals to overwhelm opposing teams, and when they do not, we lose.

But team building starts at the top, and our top is clueless. It's going to get worse before it gets better...

Caine
Agree in total.

We have a very nice foundation of talent. To think otherwise is crazy talk. What we need is FO leadership to add to that talent, retain that talent if required and to find the right coaching staff to teach/coach that talent.

Our problem is we don't have the FO leadership and our coaching staff is really starting to make me wonder how the hell they ever made it to the level they are at right now.

My guess, I wasn't to far off when I made my coaches analysis thread and most of them were brought in cause they were a cheap solution.

Marrdro
11-15-2011, 11:42 AM
The fact is, and I can hardly wait to be crucified again for saying this, that the problems we face start AT THE TOP!!!

1: Zygi Wilf has GOT to remove himself and his family from Football decisions. That includes the hiring of head coaches. The Wilf family is not QUALIFIED to know what passes for a quality Head Coach...evidenced by the two they have hired.

2: So, hire a GM. Spend a hell of a lot of money and coax a KNOWN commodity to act as GM for the franchise. Of course, the Wilfs aren't qualified to know a good GM candidate either, so we're in a pickle here.

3: Let the GM clean house and start over. Firing Chiller was a good step, but we needed to clean house completely. Instead, we retained all the unsuccessful elements of Chiller's former regime. Then, those elements acquired the services of head scratchers like Musgrave....WTF?!?!?!?!? We need a better HC. Frazier won't cut it.

4: Start over. I said 4 years ago that we had to strike while we had the building blocks to do so. Well, our building blocks on Defense are all 4 years older now. Winfield, Williams, and Henderson aren't what they used to be...and it shows. Worse, our draft guru's have loaded this team with "talent" which is less capable than the aging guys who are failing to get it done...with very few exceptions.

So, we build the Defense around Greenway, and the Offense around Peterson, Ponder, and Harvin. Everyone else, we replace. We start trading guys with some value off for picks, and we load up with youth...hopefully we can get some talent along the way.

Obviously, this is a broad scope post, not intended as a step by step blueprint. I have over simplified and skipped entire portions of the issue at hand. But we got hammered last night, and it's for the same reasons we were hammered last season - poor coaching, poor scheme, and poor talent acquisition. We fired Chiller, but his hands are all over this team still. Nothing has really changed.

Caine
Damn, two in a row that make sense. Top shelf my friend, top shelf indeed.

Marrdro
11-15-2011, 11:51 AM
If that is the play I think you are talking about the first guy who screwed up was Diimperio. ( I don't give a rats azz how his name is spelled so don't bother with the "Whos"? Reply. I rewound that and replayed it several times with my wife to show her it wasn't Loadholt.He went past 44, then 28 on his way to 7.
Dii messed up on more than that one my friend, that was the one that stuck out the most. For the life of me I can't figure out why our great and wonderfull O-coord said he doesn't need a FB in this scheme and then he brings back a LB to play FB.



Marr- As far as the Fire Frazier thing, I stand where I did before. I believe he is in over his head but those above him are also in over their heads and the team needs to fix those spots before they worry about the head coach. But yes, at this point they are no improvement over Childress. That however does not in any way change the fact that Childress was also a failure and should have been gone way earlier too.
Again, I have my own issues with the Chiller, but he went 6-10 with alot less talented team than Frazier has right now. If you doubt me, go back and dig up the thread that some yutz by the name of Marrdro did that did a player by player comparison.

You know what my biggest fear is? We will have to go through at least another year of Leslie because he is a cheap "yes" man to whomever is in charge.

I for one would rather a dick head like Childress in there instead of a guy who "Asks" the players for their input.

marstc09
11-15-2011, 11:57 AM
Blaming the OL & receiving corp. My this sounds familiar.

Care to elaborate? They sucked with Favre and T-JOKE so I am not sure where you are going with this.

marstc09
11-15-2011, 12:06 PM
I don't think the Vikings have that bad of a team. The problem is they just played the best team in the NFL. Things will get better next week, much better. Pulling Rodgers with nearly a quarter of football left and having the backup score a TD was just plain dirty.

How is it dirty? Why would we want Rodgers in to drive the score up to 75? Weird comment from a Packer fan.

marstc09
11-15-2011, 12:11 PM
Plain dirty by the Pack? Not sure what they are supposed to do there? They took out their starters up big and the Vikes still were unable to stop Matt Flynn. that's on them

He is a Packer fan. You know how your kind is. He is confused and not very birght.

b_sandhar_29
11-15-2011, 12:16 PM
I have supported Frazier since the beginning of the season... Now I'm simply scratching my head. While those of you who blame Ponder for his bad play I simply cannot. When you look the play of the o-line, no quarterback can be successful in that kind of environment. I don't want to go into an in depth analysis because I'm so damn depressed so here it goes.

Our receivers are garbage and our oline may be the worst to ever play in NFL history.
Ponder doesn't deserve to be successful when you use max protection and send Aroshmasuck and Mike Jenkins out on routes.

Defensively, our secondary is like the texans last year. Worst in the NFL. Could be because we're missing Chris Cook and Asher Allen is in. If you've never seen a team who had one player who single handedly made their defense the worst in the league, please refer to Jason Davids (when he was with the saints in 07 or 08). Our secondary immediately got worse the moment Asher Allen stepped onto the field. He has simply become a liability on the field.

Coaching staff was horrendous. We were out coached by a team we already saw earlier this year and losing 45-7 just shows our lack of 2nd half adjustments. The offense, defense, and special teams (referring to Cobb's punt return that sparked this Green Bay team) played at a F+ level (apparently F+ is lower then F and F-). We should get used to that term "F+." I'm a very patient person, but I'm not seeing it from this coaching staff. Are we tanking our season for a high pick or what?

I'll start reading 2012 Mock Drafts right now.

i_bleed_purple
11-15-2011, 12:21 PM
Chiller, but he went 6-10 with alot less talented team than Frazier has right now. If you doubt me, go back and dig up the thread that some yutz by the name of Marrdro did that did a player by player comparison.

Challenge accepted

2006 rosteR: 2006 Minnesota Vikings Roster - The Football Database (http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/minnesota-vikings/roster/2006)

2011 roster: Minnesota Vikings Roster - The Football Database (http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/minnesota-vikings/roster/2011)

QB:
2006: Brad Johnson
2011: Christian Ponder.

Wash. Neither has played well at all. Ponder APPEARS to be better, simply because he's new. If he wasa a 14 year vet playing this way, he'd be CRUCIFIED. So the talent RIGHT NOW, wash.

RB:
2006: CT/Memo/Fason/Richardson/Tahi
2011: AP/TG/Booker/D'Imperio
2011 wins obviously. Just on the fact that Tahi is gone now.

OL:
2006: McKinnie/Hutch/Birk/Hererra/Johnson
2011: C.Johnson/Hutch/Sully/Berger/Loadholt

2006 wins by a large margin. They could actually block well. Big holes to run through, average protection

TE:
2006: Wiggins/Sauce/Dugan
2011: Shank/Rudolph/Sauce
2011 wins in talent, 2006 wins in production.

WR:
2006: Williamson/Taylor/Robinson/McMullen/Be. Johnson
2011: Harvin/Jenkins/Aromashodu/Camarillo/Burton

2011 is better, that's for sure.

DL:
2006: James/K-Will/P-Will/Udeze
2011: Allen/K-Will/Ayodele/Robison

2011 is better

LB:
2006: Harris/EJ/Leber
2011: Greenway/EJ/Erin

Wash. Harris wasn't bad in 06 as I recall, Leber was leber.

Greenway is having ad own year, EJ is not the same since the injury and Erin is tolerable at best. In fact, 06 wins.

DB:
2006: Winfield/Griff/Sharper/D.Smith/Smoot
2011: Winfield/Griff/Sanford/Abdullah/Asher

2006 wins, by a large margin. Griff/Winfield are worse this year than they were in 06 (Saying alot for Griff). Sharper/Smith to Sanford/Abdullah is an obvious downgrade. Smoot, as much as we love to hate him was better than Asher

So, in total by unit I have

QB: wash
RB: 2011
OL: 2006
TE: 2011
OL: 2006
WR: 2011
DL: 2011
LB: 2006
DB: 2006

2006: 4
2011: 4

Care to dispute any of those points?

Player by player analysis coming

VikingMike
11-15-2011, 12:31 PM
Atrocious performance, totally embarrassing. You win games in the trenches. Our O-line is terrible. Tice has done a great job with less talent than we have. The D-line is average, except for Allen. I can't even talk about our secondary...but just once I'd like to see a CB/S actually turn around and see the ball coming toward the receiver. Pathetic.

i_bleed_purple
11-15-2011, 12:41 PM
Player by player.

QB:

Brad Johnson/Donovan McNabb
Both players here started the season and got benched due to ineffective play. Johnson lasted most of the season, while McNabb got benched a few games in.

Backups come in, TJ played horrendously, Ponder has played slightly above shit.

I give BJ over DNabb, Ponder over TJ

2006: 1
2011: 1

RB:
AP/CT. Obviously choice here

Memo/TG. I'll take Memo any day over TG as a backup. great as a spell back, and a great 3rd down option as well

2006: 2
2011: 2

FB: Richardson/D'Imperio
Do I even need to explain?
2006: 3
2011: 2

OL:
LT: McKinnie/Charlie Johnson
McKinnie gets the nod here. He actually blocked alright, and as a unit they weren't a complete liability

2006: 4
2011: 2

LG: Hutch/Old Hutch
No denying Hutch in 2006 was better than he is now
2006: 5
2011: 2

C: Birk/Sully
You'll probably argue otherwise, but Birk started all 16 games, and played at a high level. Sully has not yet to date
2006: 6
2011: 2

RG: M Johnson/Berger
Wash here. Neither has really done much.
2006: 6
2011:2

RT: Hicks/Loadholt
Hicks this season. Loadholt has just been flat out bad the past two seasons. Not sure what went on since his rookie year, but he is not coming close to getting it done.
2006: 7
2011: 2

TE: Shank/Wiggins
Tough one. Shank is more physically gifted, but Wiggins got it done, something Shank has not. Gotta give the nod to Wiggins here
2006: 8
2011: 2

Rudolph/Kleinsasser
Rudolph getst he nod here. Sauce had his uses, but Rudolph looks like a freak. Gotta get him invovled more
2006: 8
2011: 3

WR:
Not going to bother, and just give 4 points to 2011 here. 06 corps was brutal
2006: 8
2011: 7

DL:
Allen/Erasmus
LOL!
2006: 8
2011: 8

K-Will/K-Will
2006 versionw as better. Muchb etter
2006:9
2011: 8

P-Will/Ayodele/Ballard/Whoever comes in to rotate this spot
2006: 10
2011: 8

Robison/Udeze
2006: 10
2011: 9

Napolean Harris/Greenway
Close here. G reenway is playing off this season, but he gets a slight edge
2006: 10
2011: 10

EJ/EJ
HE hasn't been the same since the whole snapping of the femur thing
2006: 11
2011: 10

Leber/Erin
Leber wins by a wide margin. Erin just isn't that great. He's not that bad, but Leber was always consistent
2006: 12
2011: 10

AW/Griff vs. AW/Griff
2006 versions of botht hese players were much better.
2006: 14
2011: 10

Asher/Sherels vs. Smoot/Gordon
2006 wins again. Sherels has potential, Asher just sucks. Smoot wasn't great, but I'd pick that 06 corps over our current one.
2006: 16
2011: 10

Sharper/Smith vs. Abdullah/Sanford
both 06 players beat their 2011 counterparts
2006: 18
2011: 10

Longwell/Longwell
2006 version was better than the 2011 version. Better leg, and Longwell just seems a bit off this season
2006: 19
2011: 10

Kluwe/Kluwe
2011 version is dynamite.

2006: 19
2011: 11


Would like to elaborate more, but I have to go right now. Eagerly awaiting any counterpoints.

marstc09
11-15-2011, 12:56 PM
LOL, I noticed bigger problems than those two things my friend. Mostly related to play calling and piss poor interior play on the DL which allowed Rogers to stand back there all day long and pick our poor secondary apart.

It is called having a good OL but you would not know anything about that.

RK.
11-15-2011, 01:00 PM
So all these stats mean we had a crappy team in 2006 and a crappy team in 2011? The only difference is see is that the relative strength of the NFC north is different this year. If the Lions, Bears, and Packers of this year were playing in 2006 I suspect the seasons would be almost identical in terms of wins and losses. Comparing stats in different years is tough because so much depends on who you are playing.

marstc09
11-15-2011, 01:08 PM
Don't have time to read all the thread (work is nuts lately) but I'm sure I'll see the same ole same ole.....

OL Sucks. DB's suck.

I'm not sure what was harder, watching a team coming out of the bye week that was totally unprepared to play or to listen to Chucky wax poetic about the PUKERS and completely make lame ass comments such as......

Evans has taken over for Phat Pat. Must not have heard about the Remi project.

Winnfield is our best CB and was starting. Did he notice that Whinny only was on the field for the nickel.

Sanford can't run with a TE when it was actually Whinny that was getting gashed.

PUKERS D-coord was coming up with creative schemes to get pressure. Hell all they did is flood the gaps with 7 and sometimes 8 and drop the others into zones cause all the Vikes did was run buch sets. On a side note, when we did put some WR's on the field we did make some plays.

Long story short, this team was not ready to play. In fact, it is getting worse each week and not better. You can only say that about a couple of teams this year and we are one of them.

I wonder how many on here are calling for Leslie (and the rest of his chuckleheads staff) or are biting your toungues cause you don't want to admit that this guy is absolutely the worst HC this team has ever seen.

Mr. Wilf, I am not one to advocate replacing a HC because it doesn't breed stability at that position, which is critical to winning, but please, for all that is good, do not force us to watch this staff (because you could get it at a bargain basement price) squander what should be a competitive team.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

This is coming from the same guy who gave T-JOKE and Clueless how many years?!!?!?!?!

Ridiculousness.

Same old drivel.............

Purple Floyd
11-15-2011, 01:43 PM
Player by player.

QB:

Brad Johnson/Donovan McNabb
Both players here started the season and got benched due to ineffective play. Johnson lasted most of the season, while McNabb got benched a few games in.

Backups come in, TJ played horrendously, Ponder has played slightly above shit.

I give BJ over DNabb, Ponder over TJ

2006: 1
2011: 1

RB:
AP/CT. Obviously choice here

Memo/TG. I'll take Memo any day over TG as a backup. great as a spell back, and a great 3rd down option as well

2006: 2
2011: 2

FB: Richardson/D'Imperio
Do I even need to explain?
2006: 3
2011: 2

OL:
LT: McKinnie/Charlie Johnson
McKinnie gets the nod here. He actually blocked alright, and as a unit they weren't a complete liability

2006: 4
2011: 2

LG: Hutch/Old Hutch
No denying Hutch in 2006 was better than he is now
2006: 5
2011: 2

C: Birk/Sully
You'll probably argue otherwise, but Birk started all 16 games, and played at a high level. Sully has not yet to date
2006: 6
2011: 2

RG: M Johnson/Berger
Wash here. Neither has really done much.
2006: 6
2011:2

RT: Hicks/Loadholt
Hicks this season. Loadholt has just been flat out bad the past two seasons. Not sure what went on since his rookie year, but he is not coming close to getting it done.
2006: 7
2011: 2

TE: Shank/Wiggins
Tough one. Shank is more physically gifted, but Wiggins got it done, something Shank has not. Gotta give the nod to Wiggins here
2006: 8
2011: 2

Rudolph/Kleinsasser
Rudolph getst he nod here. Sauce had his uses, but Rudolph looks like a freak. Gotta get him invovled more
2006: 8
2011: 3

WR:
Not going to bother, and just give 4 points to 2011 here. 06 corps was brutal
2006: 8
2011: 7

DL:
Allen/Erasmus
LOL!
2006: 8
2011: 8

K-Will/K-Will
2006 versionw as better. Muchb etter
2006:9
2011: 8

P-Will/Ayodele/Ballard/Whoever comes in to rotate this spot
2006: 10
2011: 8

Robison/Udeze
2006: 10
2011: 9

Napolean Harris/Greenway
Close here. G reenway is playing off this season, but he gets a slight edge
2006: 10
2011: 10

EJ/EJ
HE hasn't been the same since the whole snapping of the femur thing
2006: 11
2011: 10

Leber/Erin
Leber wins by a wide margin. Erin just isn't that great. He's not that bad, but Leber was always consistent
2006: 12
2011: 10

AW/Griff vs. AW/Griff
2006 versions of botht hese players were much better.
2006: 14
2011: 10

Asher/Sherels vs. Smoot/Gordon
2006 wins again. Sherels has potential, Asher just sucks. Smoot wasn't great, but I'd pick that 06 corps over our current one.
2006: 16
2011: 10

Sharper/Smith vs. Abdullah/Sanford
both 06 players beat their 2011 counterparts
2006: 18
2011: 10

Longwell/Longwell
2006 version was better than the 2011 version. Better leg, and Longwell just seems a bit off this season
2006: 19
2011: 10

Kluwe/Kluwe
2011 version is dynamite.

2006: 19
2011: 11


Would like to elaborate more, but I have to go right now. Eagerly awaiting any counterpoints.

All I can add is your analysis just shows how good of a job Tice did in 2005 with less talent than both of the teams you broke down and with half the staff.

jargomcfargo
11-15-2011, 01:57 PM
Agree in total.

We have a very nice foundation of talent. To think otherwise is crazy talk. What we need is FO leadership to add to that talent, retain that talent if required and to find the right coaching staff to teach/coach that talent.

Our problem is we don't have the FO leadership and our coaching staff is really starting to make me wonder how the hell they ever made it to the level they are at right now.

My guess, I wasn't to far off when I made my coaches analysis thread and most of them were brought in cause they were a cheap solution.

Agree with most of your post but strongly disagree with the team having a nice foundation of talent.
If you call AP,Hutch,and Jared Allen the foundation, it's a pretty small one.

KW has declined. Is Robison still on team? Haven't seen him for a number of weeks.
EJ is too slow to cover receivers. Greenway looks fat and slow this year and is had a terrible game last night.

The cover 2 is a zone defense but it seems the receivers often have 5 yards or more of separation when they catch a pass, then can't tackle; except Winfield who no longer can stay healthy.

Loadholdt is a bust. Sullivan is marginal. Johnson is less than average. and Herrera is average. nd the line an't get any push nor dominate anyone.

The QB is a rookie and needs protection and time to develop.

The receivers don't get separation and often don't have time to get open.
Harvin can't stay healthy and though talented, isn't racking up huge numbers.

There isn't a single great DT on the team.

Longwell is like Freddie Cox. Accurate at short distances but no leg.

So while I agree the coaching staff is a huge part of the problem, I see a dearth of talent, not much of a foundation.

jargomcfargo
11-15-2011, 02:14 PM
Again, I have my own issues with the Chiller, but he went 6-10 with alot less talented team than Frazier has right now. If you doubt me, go back and dig up the thread that some yutz by the name of Marrdro did that did a player by player comparison.

Are you really going to compare which losing team was better, to show you were right about Childress, in some long forgotten post? Really!?

Dfoster
11-15-2011, 02:31 PM
You definitely had us against the wall in all of these circumstances. We relied on the refs to bail us out of your collective awesomeness, and Mars was correct when he told us at PackersHome.com that Vikings fans never bitch about the officiating like Packers fans do.

We apologize. If it was a fair field, you most definitely should have won.

How embarrassing. We will work on that... In our defense, we DID screw ourselves over big-time when we went with this Rodgers guy, as opposed to Brett Favre, so forgive us in our growing pains.

I guess I owe you a "congratulations", in addition to the apology. You smoked us, other than the aforementined rip-offs you were subjected to due to the home-cooking in Lambeau.

Maybe we'll get you next time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

rednorsk
11-15-2011, 04:39 PM
what a disgraceful performance. How can those guys get paid for that?

Dfoster
11-15-2011, 04:46 PM
I know it hurt, that game got away from the Vikes, but it wasn't as bad as it looks right this moment.

e.g. - We can't stop your boy Jared Allen. I worried for my future with him rolling in on Rodgers. God, I hate that SOB- That is a compliment. He came to play,
I saw that.

He's so smug. (Jerry Seinfeld reference, lol)

jessejames09
11-15-2011, 04:55 PM
You definitely had us against the wall in all of these circumstances. We relied on the refs to bail us out of your collective awesomeness, and Mars was correct when he told us at PackersHome.com that Vikings fans never bitch about the officiating like Packers fans do.

We apologize. If it was a fair field, you most definitely should have won.

How embarrassing. We will work on that... In our defense, we DID screw ourselves over big-time when we went with this Rodgers guy, as opposed to Brett Favre, so forgive us in our growing pains.

I guess I owe you a "congratulations", in addition to the apology. You smoked us, other than the aforementined rip-offs you were subjected to due to the home-cooking in Lambeau.

Maybe we'll get you next time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

Even after a blowout win, it's a packer fan with the most whiny, bitchiest post of the whole thread. Some things never change.

Dfoster
11-15-2011, 05:00 PM
Dayum- testy.

Sports = entertainment

entertainment < life.

Braddock
11-15-2011, 06:19 PM
That was just painful. Everything PF has said so far, plus more.


QB: D-
Wow, that was bad. Ponder was not accurate, he's shown he STILL can not figure out how to throw a deep ball. He has no pocket awareness, no mental clock, nothing like that. yeah, that stuff comes with time, but this is a perfect example of why I've been saying we needed to sign a vet. Fairly obvious that on the big stage, he's not ready. Now, granted our OL didn't do him any favours at all, but it goes both ways. Ponder runs around so much, the OL are chasing him 10 yards deep to try and make a block. Ponder needs to learn to throw it away, or get yards. Watch Rodgers, when he scrambles to buy time, he's not running 10 yards deep, he's moving laterally or forwards. Very rarely runs backwards. Ponder is far from ready to lead a winning team, tonight showed that. Against one of the poorer pass defenses in the league, he couldn't do a thing.


Now, I'll admit that I passed out for part of the second half, but from what I saw I completely disagree. A rookie QB, going against an unleashed GB defense (blitzed 75% of plays), and having, without a doubt, the league's worst OL to protect him, will not be successful. What I saw, was a QB, who ran out of the pocket whenever it was necessary (and when Clay Matthews was at least impeded enough for Ponder to recognize him coming), stepped up in the pocket to complete a couple of first downs to his TEs, and wasn't afraid to throw downfield, even though that flea flicker was drastically underthrown (that was a negative). He can't scramble laterally because both Tackles are 10 yds deep themselves after getting bowled over by anyone and their cousin. I don't care what you say about GB's pass defense, they weren't the same defense last night that they've been earlier in the season. I am happy with Ponder's play, when we had a chance (or at least half a chance) to make more than 1 read and set his feet. That is something he can control, Clay Matthews having VIP access to the backfield is something he cannot, and should not be judged for.

Braddock
11-15-2011, 06:28 PM
Challenge accepted


QB:
2006: Brad Johnson
2011: Christian Ponder.

Wash. Neither has played well at all. Ponder APPEARS to be better, simply because he's new. If he wasa a 14 year vet playing this way, he'd be CRUCIFIED. So the talent RIGHT NOW, wash.


That is a complete dumbass thing to say 1.) because it's very obvious. Any vet playing like a 3rd game starter playing against the world champs should sit (see Donovan McNabb) 2.) Because Ponder's play, especially being earlier in his career is far more dependent on the protection from the oline to give him time to make his understandably slower reads, and our oline is just atrocious and 3.) There is room to improve with Ponder, who again is in his third start (2 of which were against the undefeated Superbowl champs).

I also disagree because Ponder shows more downfield vision and desire to make a big play than B Johnson ever did with us. That earns a lot of credit in my book.

Dfoster
11-15-2011, 06:46 PM
The kid can play, imo.

That is your bright spot, and it's a big one.

MANY gave me advice in 2009 in how Ted will never win anything because he will not pull the trigger on key free agents to get them out of mediocrity, etc. McCarthy isn't a winner, etc.

Pack all that.

Here is MY advice, in 2011-

Have faith. You have a QB now. Give Leslie a real chance. Stop looking to the perimeters, look to the trenches.

Make your QB comfortable, make the opponents' QB uncomfortable.

ConnecticutViking
11-15-2011, 07:00 PM
The kid can play, imo.

That is your bright spot, and it's a big one.

MANY gave me advice in 2009 in how Ted will never win anything because he will not pull the trigger on key free agents to get them out of mediocrity, etc. McCarthy isn't a winner, etc.

Pack all that.

Here is MY advice, in 2011-

Have faith. You have a QB now. Give Leslie a real chance. Stop looking to the perimeters, look to the trenches.

Make your QB comfortable, make the opponents' QB uncomfortable.

Nice post...I agree. It starts in the trenches.

marshallvike
11-15-2011, 07:50 PM
The kid can play, imo.

That is your bright spot, and it's a big one.

MANY gave me advice in 2009 in how Ted will never win anything because he will not pull the trigger on key free agents to get them out of mediocrity, etc. McCarthy isn't a winner, etc.

Pack all that.

Here is MY advice, in 2011-

Have faith. You have a QB now. Give Leslie a real chance. Stop looking to the perimeters, look to the trenches.

Make your QB comfortable, make the opponents' QB uncomfortable.

Spoken like an intelligent (closet) Viking fan

Dfoster
11-15-2011, 07:56 PM
Dayum- I have been exposed. That's what I am, a closet Vikings fan.

(I left the intelligent part out because I'm from Wisconsin)

Yes!


Now that's original...


I have been called SO MANY THINGS in my lifetime, but NEVER that, lol lol lol

marshallvike
11-15-2011, 08:14 PM
Dayum- I have been exposed. That's what I am, a closet Vikings fan.

(I left the intelligent part out because I'm from Wisconsin)

Yes!


Now that's original...


I have been called SO MANY THINGS in my lifetime, but NEVER that, lol lol lol

Sorry.
I guess I've outed you:rofl:

singersp
11-16-2011, 06:02 AM
So, we build the Defense around Greenway, and the Offense around Peterson, Ponder, and Harvin. Everyone else, we replace. We start trading guys with some value off for picks, and we load up with youth...hopefully we can get some talent along the way.

Caine

So you're saying we should replace/trade JA, Robison & Rudolph?

singersp
11-16-2011, 06:18 AM
Originally Posted by singersp View Post
Blaming the OL & receiving corp. My this sounds familiar.


Care to elaborate? They sucked with Favre and T-JOKE so I am not sure where you are going with this.

I've been saying it for years, but when I said it, I was told I was "making excuses". Now that both Favre & Ponder have struggled with them, people are starting to see the light. Except Marrdro.

Our OL has sucked all the way back to 2005. Our post Moss WR corp has been mediocre at best with the exception of Rice & Harvin. 2009 was a fluke year were a lot of things fell our way up until the NFC Championship game.

Caine
11-16-2011, 06:19 AM
So you're saying we should replace/trade JA, Robison & Rudolph?

Essentially...yes.

Take a look at our team? Will Allen be here playing at a high level when we rebound from the Chiller/Frazier debacle? Probably not. BUt he has a very high trade value right now due to his production.

Rudolph slipped through...he's a rook, so keep him.

Robison is a servicable DE, but he's not a show stopper. We'd keep him because he's worth more to us than to anyone else...unless someone came knocking.

What I am saying is that we should establish our youthful foundation, then build around it. We have to be willing to let go of guys who are productive RIGHT NOW, but won't be in 3-5 years. It's going to take time to fix all the problems we have.

Let's face it, we're not in a "Win Now" position any longer. Nor can we easily get there without the acquisition of at LEAST 2-3 quality receivers. Unless you see that option on the horizon, then we have to make some painful changes NOW in order to have a future.

That's MY opinion anyway.

Caine

singersp
11-16-2011, 06:45 AM
Essentially...yes.

Take a look at our team? Will Allen be here playing at a high level when we rebound from the Chiller/Frazier debacle? Probably not. BUt he has a very high trade value right now due to his production.

Rudolph slipped through...he's a rook, so keep him.

Robison is a servicable DE, but he's not a show stopper. We'd keep him because he's worth more to us than to anyone else...unless someone came knocking.

What I am saying is that we should establish our youthful foundation, then build around it. We have to be willing to let go of guys who are productive RIGHT NOW, but won't be in 3-5 years. It's going to take time to fix all the problems we have.

Let's face it, we're not in a "Win Now" position any longer. Nor can we easily get there without the acquisition of at LEAST 2-3 quality receivers. Unless you see that option on the horizon, then we have to make some painful changes NOW in order to have a future.

That's MY opinion anyway.

Caine

They're trying to establish a youthful foundation. Problem is, the youth they are choosing, for the most part, aren't getting it done.

A lot of that I put on the FO & the coaches, much like you.

Tice was not given any funds to hire quality coaches or even maintain a full coaching staff. After Linehan bailed, the OL coach had to be the OC as well & then there was OMG! Cottrell.

When Childress stepped in, he was given an open pocket book & hired a plethora of coaches. Unfortunately, he decided to hire his buddies rather than go out an hire coaches who could actually coach well. We were just fortunate enough that Tomlin, one of the few, if not only, that could coach. After his departure, Frazier rode the coat tails of that defense which has downgraded since to what we see today.

Like you said, too many of Childress' staff still remain & need to be purged & replaced with QUALITY coaches. An OL coach who can't teach an OL how to block, has no business here. A coach who can't teach a RB how to block & pick up blitzes has no business here. A VP who hires WR's that can't catch, has no business here.

Purple Floyd
11-16-2011, 07:01 AM
They're trying to establish a youthful foundation. Problem is, the youth they are choosing, for the most part, aren't getting it done.

A lot of that I put on the FO & the coaches, much like you.

Tice was not given any funds to hire quality coaches or even maintain a full coaching staff. After Linehan bailed, the OL coach had to be the OC as well & then there was OMG! Cottrell.

When Childress stepped in, he was given an open pocket book & hired a plethora of coaches. Unfortunately, he decided to hire his buddies rather than go out an hire coaches who could actually coach well. We were just fortunate enough that Tomlin, one of the few, if not only, that could coach. After his departure, Frazier rode the coat tails of that defense which has downgraded since to what we see today.

Like you said, too many of Childress' staff still remain & need to be purged & replaced with QUALITY coaches. An OL coach who can't teach an OL how to block, has no business here. A coach who can't teach a RB how to block & pick up blitzes has no business here. A VP who hires WR's that can't catch, has no business here.
Then I suppose the only logical follow up to that belief would be than an owner who has been responsible for the oversight of all of that has no business here either.

singersp
11-16-2011, 07:18 AM
OL:
2006: McKinnie/Hutch/Birk/Hererra/Johnson
2011: C.Johnson/Hutch/Sully/Berger/Loadholt

2006 wins by a large margin. They could actually block well. Big holes to run through, average protection.


Care to dispute any of those points?



I do. First you might want to make sure of all your starters.

Herrera didn't start any games in 2006. A rotation of Johnson, Hicks & Cook played right of center. In 2011 Herrera started the most games at G (7), not Berger (2).

I also disagree they were better by a large margin. They may have been slightly better in the run game, but the pass protection still wasn't there. They gave up 44 sacks, which is what they are on pace of giving up now. Johnson got beat up behind that line.

singersp
11-16-2011, 07:30 AM
Then I suppose the only logical follow up to that belief would be than an owner who has been responsible for the oversight of all of that has no business here either.

Not Necessarily. He needs to hire a GM who knows football to be responsible & oversee the team, rather than try to be involved with a lot of the decisions himself. Especially if his knowledge of that side of football is limited.

Spielman is not that guy.

seaniemck7
11-16-2011, 09:07 AM
Not Necessarily. He needs to hire a GM who knows football to be responsible & oversee the team, rather than try to be involved with a lot of the decisions himself. Especially if his knowledge of that side of football is limited.

Spielman is not that guy.

You said it, Brother. We have no FO direction with accountability across the board. From player acquisitions standpoint, we have embarrassingly bungled situations that are hard to stomach. 1.) trading and extending for Sage only to make him our 3rd QB behind 2.) Brett Favre, even though he had a great year in 2009. 2010 was uglier than ugly since the wheels started to come off after 3.) Randy Moss is brought back under much fan fare only to have him and our draft we traded away go bye after 4 weeks.

That is the type of shit that sets your franchise back. Anyone can miss on a player. That happens to the best organizations every year. But these events were divisive and at least got Childress fired.

We started with this Triangle of Authority that seemed good on paper. At some point, with Wilf's involvement, it has morphed into a Rhombus of Inneptitude when it comes to accountability.

If I had more time, I would go into the absolute failure when it comes to managing the contractual side of the house for young players we want to extend, maybe later.

i_bleed_purple
11-16-2011, 09:12 AM
I also disagree because Ponder shows more downfield vision and desire to make a big play than B Johnson ever did with us. That earns a lot of credit in my book.

Talk about dumbass thing to say.

especially considering Ponder's potential has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with his skill and performance THIS SEASON (point of that post)

but thanks for playing.

i_bleed_purple
11-16-2011, 09:16 AM
I do. First you might want to make sure of all your starters.

Herrera didn't start any games in 2006. A rotation of Johnson, Hicks & Cook played right of center. In 2011 Herrera started the most games at G (7), not Berger (2).

I also disagree they were better by a large margin. They may have been slightly better in the run game, but the pass protection still wasn't there. They gave up 44 sacks, which is what they are on pace of giving up now. Johnson got beat up behind that line.

I caught that and adjusted it in the player-by-player breakdown in my following post.

I went with Berger, since he's the one starting right now.

Kwearner
11-16-2011, 12:02 PM
There are so few positives to focus on, holes all around. Secondary looks like they don't know where they are half the time, wait all the time. Offensive line gets burned on every other play. This obviously didn't help Ponder. Do we think at this point he's our quarterback of the future? I'm not completely sold yet, but he's showing definite potential. Can't put to much blame on him, when the coaching staff doesn't have the team prepared.

FIRE FRAZIER

Freakout
11-16-2011, 12:19 PM
Reading Tom Pelissero on twitter, Green Bay blitz'ed the living hell out of Ponder.


Tom Pelissero
Double-checking my work, it was actually 28 blitz patterns in Ponder's 36 dropbacks (77.8%). Nuts.

In all, #Packers rushed five or more 28 times in Ponder's 36 dropbacks, not including bootlegs, sprintouts, etc. That's pretty unheard of.

Crunching some crazy numbers from #Vikings-#Packers game. Capers used 10 different blitz combos, sent 25 patterns in Ponder's 36 drop backs.

tastywaves
11-16-2011, 03:50 PM
Musgrave was too busy getting cute with his WR's in the backfield to actually notice.

Purple Floyd
11-16-2011, 04:49 PM
Not Necessarily. He needs to hire a GM who knows football to be responsible & oversee the team, rather than try to be involved with a lot of the decisions himself. Especially if his knowledge of that side of football is limited.

Spielman is not that guy.

That is easy to say but his actions indicate he has no desire to do that. So you are willing to throw every person under the bus except the one who has the most authority to change everything?

jrjohn
11-16-2011, 09:06 PM
I'm noticed something about Leslie Fraizer. Each time the camera is on him, he's just standing there like he's in a comma. You watch any of the better coaches and they are pacing the sideling, jacking up players, throwing their hands in the air, patting players on the back, and pimping the refs. Leslie looks like he's in shock.

i_bleed_purple
11-16-2011, 10:16 PM
I'm noticed something about Leslie Fraizer. Each time the camera is on him, he's just standing there like he's in a comma. You watch any of the better coaches and they are pacing the sideling, jacking up players, throwing their hands in the air, patting players on the back, and pimping the refs. Leslie looks like he's in shock.

Not all, Fraizer seems to follow the Dungy style. Calm, never raises his voice. However, it just doesn't seem to be working for him.

Bud Grant was much the same, and I doubt you'll find many here saying he was a bad coach.

jrjohn
11-16-2011, 10:55 PM
I think years ago a coach could get away with being emotionally "absent" during the game. It doesn't seem like that works anymore. The outwardly emotional coaches are getting more out of their players.

singersp
11-17-2011, 05:51 AM
I caught that and adjusted it in the player-by-player breakdown in my following post.

I went with Berger, since he's the one starting right now.

Except when Sullivan is out & he's starting at center. :) He's started both positions this year so far.

singersp
11-17-2011, 05:56 AM
That is easy to say but his actions indicate he has no desire to do that. So you are willing to throw every person under the bus except the one who has the most authority to change everything?

He's the owner. We're talking about replacing personnel. It's not like he's going to fire himself & hire a new owner.

He can however, remove himself from the Triangle of Terror & let those with the football knowledge run the show rather than him trying to play the billionaire's version of Madden Football.

Caine
11-18-2011, 06:06 PM
That is easy to say but his actions indicate he has no desire to do that. So you are willing to throw every person under the bus except the one who has the most authority to change everything?

I've gone after Wilf repeatedly - got a few people riled up over doing it too. But you can'r "fire" Zygi....you have to buy him out...and he has to want to sell.

IMHO, we will have a very hard time being a successful franchise until 1 of two things happen:

1: Zygi, Mark, and Leonard Wilf suddenly develop into "Football guys"...which may take years.

2: Zygfi wises up,. removes himself, Mark, and Leonard from Football operations, and finds someone with a clue about how a Football Franchise is run to actually run it right...that person would be the GM.

Now, I don't see #2 happening for a couple of reasons.

A: Zygi is having fun playing "GM" and "Decision Maker"...it's makes the waves from the Owners suite so much more satisfying.

B: It gives the "family" another income source (And I hate to bring that up, but - let's face it -they aren't QUALIFIED for the positions they hold).

So, in the meantime, we rail against the poor decisions that we might actually see corrected - like hiring Frazier/Musgrave/etc. It doesn't mean we are ignoring Zygi's role in this, it's simply that he is the least likely element to change.

Caine

singersp
11-19-2011, 07:23 AM
Reading Tom Pelissero on twitter, Green Bay blitz'ed the living hell out of Ponder.


Tom Pelissero
Double-checking my work, it was actually 28 blitz patterns in Ponder's 36 dropbacks (77.8%). Nuts.

In all, #Packers rushed five or more 28 times in Ponder's 36 dropbacks, not including bootlegs, sprintouts, etc. That's pretty unheard of.

Crunching some crazy numbers from #Vikings-#Packers game. Capers used 10 different blitz combos, sent 25 patterns in Ponder's 36 drop backs.

Imagine that. A team blitzing the hell out of a rookie QB.

What a novel idea! Although some here might call it ridiculous.

singersp
11-19-2011, 07:32 AM
Atrocious performance, totally embarrassing. You win games in the trenches. Our O-line is terrible. Pathetic.

I warned fans during preseason that our OL would not pan out when the new OL coach wanted to use 4 different schemes & complicate matters worse.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/singersp82759/Epic_Fail.jpg

Purple Floyd
11-19-2011, 09:24 AM
Imagine that. A team blitzing the hell out of a rookie QB.

What a novel idea! Although some here might call it ridiculous.

Maybe Leslie should have waited until game time to announce ponder was starting. We might have only lost by 42-7 :rofl:

singersp
11-20-2011, 07:00 AM
Maybe Leslie should have waited until game time to announce ponder was starting. We might have only lost by 42-7 :rofl:

They already knew he was starting last week, unlike the first time.

I can't believe you honestly don't believe that teams prepare against the QB they'll be facing. That's coaching 101.

:rofl:

Purple Floyd
11-20-2011, 10:21 AM
They already knew he was starting last week, unlike the first time.

I can't believe you honestly don't believe that teams prepare against the QB they'll be facing. That's coaching 101.

:rofl:

Oh yeah, I forgot.

In that first game they pulled hi pop Warner tape and schemed him based on that.

You are practically the PP.O Nostradamus.:rofl:

Traveling_Vike
11-20-2011, 03:47 PM
I was not able to post my thoughts until now, due to serious computer problems over the past week and change.

Going in to this game, all indicators were that it would go pretty much as it did. I did not want to believe it, still had some hope, because just three weeks earlier, we had given the Pack their closest game of the season thus far. I had also pointed out the very vulnerable pass defense in GB.

But the big bugaboo came back to bite us again. We cannot play in prime time, period. We're not just bad, we almost always completely embarrass ourselves when the world is watching.

Yes, our O-Line is poor to awful, inconsistent and unfocused. Yes, our defensive secondary is less than stellar, and our LBs cannot cover. Yes, we need help at WR.

But we really are not THAT bad. I keep hearing people say that such and so is the worst in the league, and it simply isn't true. That's just an emotional response to a poor performance.

The biggest problem right now is with the coaching, top to bottom. Players being out of position and missing assignments this often can only be attributed to poor coaching. Once or twice might be on the players, but not dozens of times. Excessive stupid penalties on both sides of the ball, once again is on coaching. Poor fundamentals and tackling... guess what, coaching again.

And yes, we do need a real football GM. But that isn't happening this year either. Cross your fingers and hope for next season.

Frazier and company should be allowed to ride out the year, since things are essentially done for this season anyway. But come the off-season, we should be seriously looking for a new staff, top to bottom. Frazier and his boys have done nothing to inspire me or even to show me they learn from their mistakes. This was the same huge problem I had with Childress, although his mistakes were more on a personal level than an Xs-and-Os deal. (Sure he had some problems there as well, but the player interaction issues were much worse.)

Simply put, the Packers came ready to play and we did not. Hmmm... do you suppose that might also be on the coaches? Novel idea. I know, but there it is.

Packer fans may try to claim that we looked so bad because of what they did to us. No doubt, they are a good team and do take advantage of opponent flaws, but what happened on Monday night was as much, if not more, on our own poor overall performance, as it was on Green Bay's good showing. It was by far our worst game of the year, start to finish.

Sometimes I think that Jared, Adrian and Percy are the only guys who give a damn week in and week out. Some guys, like them, are self-motivating. Others need help to get their motors running, and it just isn't happening on this team. And if the players can't motivate themselves, on whose shoulders does that responsibility fall? Any guesses?

Purple Floyd
11-20-2011, 03:55 PM
At they identified some things to fix after that game and got it done before they faced the raiders.

Oh, wait a minute.....

marstc09
11-20-2011, 03:57 PM
Even after a blowout win, it's a packer fan with the most whiny, bitchiest post of the whole thread. Some things never change.

LOL I was thinking the same thing.

marstc09
11-20-2011, 04:01 PM
Give Leslie a real chance.

Some won't. The funny thing is those same people wanted to give TJ and Clueless more time.

marstc09
11-20-2011, 04:04 PM
I've been saying it for years, but when I said it, I was told I was "making excuses". Now that both Favre & Ponder have struggled with them, people are starting to see the light. Except Marrdro.

Our OL has sucked all the way back to 2005. Our post Moss WR corp has been mediocre at best with the exception of Rice & Harvin. 2009 was a fluke year were a lot of things fell our way up until the NFC Championship game.

I don't remember you blaming the OL and WR when Favre was here.

marstc09
11-20-2011, 04:07 PM
I warned fans during preseason that our OL would not pan out when the new OL coach wanted to use 4 different schemes & complicate matters worse.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/singersp82759/Epic_Fail.jpg

Ahhhhh but wait Marrdro still says it is a Zone sooooo this is purely the players.

singersp
11-21-2011, 05:25 AM
I don't remember you blaming the OL and WR when Favre was here.

Then you have a short term memory loss.

Our OL has sucked since 2005, including 2009. We had a deep threat in Rice in 2088-2009.

In 2010 see what happened when he was out& Berrian was in?

In 2011 see what happened with Rice gone?