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singersp
10-20-2011, 08:21 AM
Vikings looking for more consistency from Griffin

Veteran cornerback Cedric Griffin has been on the wrong end off too many highlights this season.

Vikings looking for more consistency from Griffin | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/132109508.html)

Purple Floyd
10-20-2011, 10:47 AM
He needs to find another job. 2 knee recons is not something a CB in the NFL is going to excel with.

Freya
10-21-2011, 10:09 AM
What are they talking about "consistency"? He consistently sucks. I was pretty sure that counted or they would have gotten rid of him a long time ago.

battleaxe4cheese
10-21-2011, 10:18 AM
One knee and he could maybe play to a acceptable level, but after both knees...I don't think so. Sorry bud, but it's time to look for a new job.

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 10:24 AM
One knee and he could maybe play to a acceptable level, but after both knees...I don't think so. Sorry bud, but it's time to look for a new job.
Quick question. Do you think that Hester is fast?

I think he is very very very fast.

Having said that, Ole I got 2 bumb knees Griff was step for step with him going down the field on that play and only lagged behind when Hester made the hard outside move on his route which Griff (because of the scheme) had to honor.

Even then, Griff closed to Hester to within a step or two.

Long story short, he isn't a Revis. He's a C2 CB. By nature those cats are not burners.

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 10:29 AM
It's not just that one play. He is at the point now where he needs such a cushion that he is a liability. He sucked when he was drafted, got to the point where he finally wasn't front page bad any more but nothing special, then blew out 2 knees in less than 10 minutes of playing time and now his value is diminished.

maybe we can trade him to the Seachickens.

i_bleed_purple
10-21-2011, 10:33 AM
Quick question. Do you think that Hester is fast?

I think he is very very very fast.

Having said that, Ole I got 2 bumb knees Griff was step for step with him going down the field on that play and only lagged behind when Hester made the hard outside move on his route which Griff (because of the scheme) had to honor.

Even then, Griff closed to Hester to within a step or two.

Long story short, he isn't a Revis. He's a C2 CB. By nature those cats are not burners.

a) No he wasn't
b) If that were an isolated incident, great, but it's not. He has been consistently beat all season long. It's time to come to grips that I was right, Griffen will not be the player he was before the injuries.

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 10:40 AM
a) No he wasn't
b) If that were an isolated incident, great, but it's not. He has been consistently beat all season long. It's time to come to grips that I was right, Griffen will not be the player he was before the injuries.
a. Yes he was.

b. No he hasn't. Hell, he has been on their best WR's almost all season with the ball going to the other side more times than not.

Has he been beat? Sure but so has all the DB's at one time or another.

Hell, the only reason you guys aren't hacking on Cook (he's been beat several times) is because he made a couple of nice plays were he tipped the ball. Go back, watch the tape, Griff has several of those as well when the ball has come his way.

i_bleed_purple
10-21-2011, 10:46 AM
a. Yes he was.

b. No he hasn't. Hell, he has been on their best WR's almost all season with the ball going to the other side more times than not.

Has he been beat? Sure but so has all the DB's at one time or another.

Hell, the only reason you guys aren't hacking on Cook (he's been beat several times) is because he made a couple of nice plays were he tipped the ball. Go back, watch the tape, Griff has several of those as well when the ball has come his way.

Cook has yet to get absolutely toasted the way Griff has constantly.

has he been beat? Yeah. Calvin Johnson beat him a couple times, one on a nice jump ball (that nobody can cover) and one on a great route that just got him away from Cook. Cook tends to recover though fairly well.

Griff can not. He gave Hester about a 7 yard cushion, and still got embarassed. I realize the S should have been in better position, but no excuse for doing this game in and game out.

As for you point he's been on their best WR almost all season? That's simply untrue.

Griff and Cook have been switching. They ahve not stuck Griff on their #1 exculsively, in fact, I've seen the opposite more with Cook being matched up on their best player.

The reason Cook gets more leeway is a) He's a 2nd year player who played about 3 games last season and b) he's actually shown he can make nice, athletic plays on the ball regularly. Griff has shown he can make poor, unathletic attempts, and come up 5 yards behind Hester.

I realize that you were one of the ones that remained hopefully Griff would pan out early on in his career, and he was looking much better until a couple years ago, but time to face facts. Corners slow down when they tear both ACLs. I don't know how to put that any other way.

battleaxe4cheese
10-21-2011, 10:52 AM
Quick question. Do you think that Hester is fast?

I think he is very very very fast.

Having said that, Ole I got 2 bumb knees Griff was step for step with him going down the field on that play and only lagged behind when Hester made the hard outside move on his route which Griff (because of the scheme) had to honor.

Even then, Griff closed to Hester to within a step or two.

Long story short, he isn't a Revis. He's a C2 CB. By nature those cats are not burners.

Sorry my friend, but a step or two is for all practical purposes a busted play in this league if you're playing against an accurate quarterback. I not hating on the guy, it's just he's lost a step to me.

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 10:58 AM
Sorry my friend, but a step or two is for all practical purposes a busted play in this league if you're playing against an accurate quarterback. I not hating on the guy, it's just he's lost a step to me.
I can agree with you on that point, however, you have to look at the play in total. Griff did his job, he kept Hester inside were there was supposed to be help.

Both S's, the one who hesitated on the blitz, thus getting there late, and the one who was supposed to give help were the problem. Not the CB.

ConnecticutViking
10-21-2011, 11:13 AM
I understand everyone's point of view, but in my opinion, it's not the lack of speed or consistency on Griff's part, but the fact that we are playing and outdated defense that was originally designed to stop the West Coast offense. Griff does not fit in well with the needs fo the Tampa 2 D and this hurts his ability to cover receivers. A good Tampa Two Corner needs to Jam receivers and force the out side run back in. Our linebackers do not have the ability to take away the hook or curl. Our Safeties start inching up on the underneath patterns and wam get beat deep. Also, Tampa Two meant to bend but not break. It leaves the middle and sidelines open all the time and offensive coordinators already know how to beat it. Combine that with the fact that our offense has not been productive, this leaves our defense on the field for most of the game. Again, as I stated in a lot of posts. We have a lot of talent, but not the talent needed to run these schemes and we are not deep at all.

jargomcfargo
10-21-2011, 12:18 PM
I can agree with you on that point, however, you have to look at the play in total. Griff did his job, he kept Hester inside were there was supposed to be help.

Both S's, the one who hesitated on the blitz, thus getting there late, and the one who was supposed to give help were the problem. Not the CB.

Cutler read the blitz and made the Vikings pay. It was the perfect play call for that defensive play.
The coverage safety was responsible, not Griffin.
The blitzing safety would not have got there even if he hadn't hesitated. I suspect he was run blitzing.
Blitzing is always a gamble. This time we came up snake eyes.
Coverage safety had to read his side of the field and run a long ways, but it was his responsibility and he should have been there.

Freakout
10-21-2011, 12:19 PM
Griff has always gave the 10 yard cushion and struggled in man coverage. Before I would still give him slack because I thought he did pretty job of closing the space between him and they guy he was defending. That in my opinion is what is missing. He doesn't react and close as fast.

tastywaves
10-21-2011, 12:40 PM
Griff has always gave the 10 yard cushion and struggled in man coverage. Before I would still give him slack because I thought he did pretty job of closing the space between him and they guy he was defending. That in my opinion is what is missing. He doesn't react and close as fast.

I saw a show by a former CB, explaining why the corners line up 7-10 yards deep on receivers, especially in a cover 2.

The corner's are taught to play this way, not because of their lack of speed so much as it is the responsibility they are being given. That is, the corner is not being asked to just cover a receiver that he may lined up against at the beginning of the play, but rather to protect his zone against any play. Another receiver coming into the zone, running back, etc... It's easier to move forward and react then to stop and come forward if you are playing on the line.

By giving the initial 7-10 yard cushion he is in the best position to react to any of these situations. If he come's up close to the line of scrimmage and plays tight to the receiver, then he is essentially becoming a cover corner and not allowed to play his zone as effectively.

Not so much the speed of the player that is dictating the cushion, some would argue that speedier players can actually be more effective by giving an even larger cushion.

Hard to hate on the corner for playing the position the way he is being taught. Not a defense for a corner not making plays, just the cushion they may be giving.

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 01:05 PM
I saw a show by a former CB, explaining why the corners line up 7-10 yards deep on receivers, especially in a cover 2.

The corner's are taught to play this way, not because of their lack of speed so much as it is the responsibility they are being given. That is, the corner is not being asked to just cover a receiver that he may lined up against at the beginning of the play, but rather to protect his zone against any play. Another receiver coming into the zone, running back, etc... It's easier to move forward and react then to stop and come forward if you are playing on the line.

By giving the initial 7-10 yard cushion he is in the best position to react to any of these situations. If he come's up close to the line of scrimmage and plays tight to the receiver, then he is essentially becoming a cover corner and not allowed to play his zone as effectively.

Not so much the speed of the player that is dictating the cushion, some would argue that speedier players can actually be more effective by giving an even larger cushion.

Hard to hate on the corner for playing the position the way he is being taught. Not a defense for a corner not making plays, just the cushion they may be giving.

I agree with your assessment and that plays right into what I was saying about speed. With that type of cushion and the fact that they may be asked to let one guy go in order to cover another player coming into their one the best way to shrink the holes in that zone is with speed. The quicker you can drop coverage from one player and get to another player in your zone, the more accurate the QB has to be and the margin for error shrinks accordingly. The LB's are much the same. If you have guys that have a better burst of speed they can shrink the zones and make it harder to exploit the holes in the defense.

You example makes it much easier to lay out the case.

BTW- Speed doesn't always mean 100 yard or even 40 yard times. In many cases it is how quick their initial boost is

tastywaves
10-21-2011, 03:12 PM
I agree with your assessment and that plays right into what I was saying about speed. With that type of cushion and the fact that they may be asked to let one guy go in order to cover another player coming into their one the best way to shrink the holes in that zone is with speed. The quicker you can drop coverage from one player and get to another player in your zone, the more accurate the QB has to be and the margin for error shrinks accordingly. The LB's are much the same. If you have guys that have a better burst of speed they can shrink the zones and make it harder to exploit the holes in the defense.

You example makes it much easier to lay out the case.

BTW- Speed doesn't always mean 100 yard or even 40 yard times. In many cases it is how quick their initial boost is

Speed (quickness) is good no doubt, makes everything easier. If you're not blessed with speed, then you better have great instincts.

I don't see either from our safeties or LB'ers. But I have a hard time hating on our corners, when I see them constantly compensating for someone else's failures.

Freya
10-24-2011, 10:19 AM
Bench Griffin and give Webb his spot at CB. Seriously.