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View Full Version : Frazier: Vikings “not giving up on the 2011 season”



Purple Floyd
10-19-2011, 01:25 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/19/frazier-vikings-not-giving-up-on-the-2011-season/



:punch:



“He is our starting quarterback. There is no wavering. I told our team we’re counting on him to lead us over the remainder of the season,” Frazier said. “It does not mean that I’m giving up on the season (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/19/frazier-vikings-not-giving-up-on-the-2011-season/) or our coaching staff. We’re not giving up on the 2011 season. The decision was made purely based on what would give us the best chance to win on Sunday. That’s why the decision was made. I didn’t feel or sense that staying status quo was going to get us a win on Sunday.”

Marrdro
10-19-2011, 02:21 PM
I see he threw Griff under the bus today. He keeps that up and I suspect that he won't give up, but maybe his players will.

Traveling_Vike
10-19-2011, 11:21 PM
If he had said anything else, it would have proved him a failure without a doubt.

Never, never, NEVER give up. Even if you feel like it, never ever admit it.

Whether or not he believes what he is saying, he had to say it.

singersp
10-20-2011, 06:01 AM
I see he threw Griff under the bus today. He keeps that up and I suspect that he won't give up, but maybe his players will.

I'm assuming you mean Griff the CB & not Griff the DE. Under the bus is where Griffin belongs. He's far to slow after his second ACL tear.

singersp
10-20-2011, 07:06 AM
Frazier: Vikings “not giving up on the 2011 season”

Well when you tell your opponents 6 days in advance that your going to start your rookie QB & prepare accordingly, you're not trying to win games either.

Purple Floyd
10-20-2011, 09:44 AM
Well when you tell your opponents 6 days in advance that your going to start your rookie QB & prepare accordingly, you're not trying to win games either.

Tell me how that puts them in more of a bind than if he had started all year and there was film on him or if he would have stuck with McChunky and they had to prepare for him?

Really, the element of surprise was not going to do anything for us after the first few plays if even then.

Do you really think they were sweating whether they were going to face a rookie or the retread?

Gift
10-20-2011, 12:24 PM
Tell me how that puts them in more of a bind than if he had started all year and there was film on him or if he would have stuck with McChunky and they had to prepare for him?

Really, the element of surprise was not going to do anything for us after the first few plays if even then.

Do you really think they were sweating whether they were going to face a rookie or the retread?any slight advantage is still an advantage & when you 1-5 ANYTHING helps. It was a bad call to announce it so early.

Purple Floyd
10-20-2011, 12:37 PM
any slight advantage is still an advantage & when you 1-5 ANYTHING helps. It was a bad call to announce it so early.

Then I have the solution- He can just wait until game time to announce whether Berrian will start or not. That will keep them up at night.:rofl:

Gift
10-20-2011, 12:43 PM
Then I have the solution- He can just wait until game time to announce whether Berrian will start or not. That will keep them up at night.:rofl:It would, if we dont play BB then they have to single cover his replacement. If we do play BB then the can take the guy who was to cover that position and move him to the box to stop AD.

Marrdro
10-20-2011, 12:58 PM
I'm assuming you mean Griff the CB & not Griff the DE. Under the bus is where Griffin belongs. He's far to slow after his second ACL tear.
Why? Cause he did what he was supposed to do, bite on the move to the outside by Hester and couldn't recover in time to blanket him?

You do realize he is supposed to keep to the outside on that and is supposed to rely on the S coming out of the cloud coverage to help.

You want to hack on someone for that play, start with the DL that need help, the S that was sent to help and didn't get there cause he hesitated, but don't say that it is indicative of Griff being slow.

He has run fine with bigger and better recievers this year, to the point he has been playing both sides.

In short, Griff isn't our issue. He's a damn fine C2 CB. But hey, if your looking for him to stay with Hester like Revis could, I can see that, but Revis isn't a C2 CB now is he?

Purple Floyd
10-20-2011, 01:26 PM
In short, Griff isn't our issue. He's a damn fine C2 CB

Rube translation- Like Griffin, the C2 sucks.:rofl:

tastywaves
10-20-2011, 01:57 PM
Why? Cause he did what he was supposed to do, bite on the move to the outside by Hester and couldn't recover in time to blanket him?

You do realize he is supposed to keep to the outside on that and is supposed to rely on the S coming out of the cloud coverage to help.

You want to hack on someone for that play, start with the DL that need help, the S that was sent to help and didn't get there cause he hesitated, but don't say that it is indicative of Griff being slow.

He has run fine with bigger and better recievers this year, to the point he has been playing both sides.

In short, Griff isn't our issue. He's a damn fine C2 CB. But hey, if your looking for him to stay with Hester like Revis could, I can see that, but Revis isn't a C2 CB now is he?

You are a persistent one on the defensive line pressure. This is undoubtedly the strength of our defense, but they do still require 7 guys behind them doing their jobs in order to be successful. You seem to believe that we could put any 7 out there and be just fine as in theory the QB should never have time to get the ball off if the DL is doing it's job. Even when competitor's play max protect to isolate from our one defensive strength, you still lay the lion's share of the blame on them.

A little exaggeration there, but not a lot. It is a two way street, if we had better play from our secondary and linebacker's, you would see more sacks and pressure applied. This has been our achilles heel on defense for a very long time, it's time the team and Marrdro start acknowledging it.

Chicago made it look real simple. Keep 8 into block, send out two receivers and wait until they hit the gap between the corner and linebacker/safety. More often than not, we will be late in the handoff and there will be a large gap for them to put the ball.

I do agree with Marrdro though on the CB play. Griffin does seem a bit slower than last year, but overall his play for his designated responsibility seems pretty good to me. There are many times where he has to cover multiple guys in his zone or go outside his zone to compensate from lack of help. Because he is the guy seen in the video frame when the receiver catches the ball he is the easy target to put the blame on. When is the last time you've seen a linebacker or safety help Griffen out on coverage? It's very rare.

And Cook has really picked up his game. He's been the one of the few bright spots on the team this year. When AW is in playing nickel, I am comfortable with the corners play. The safety play is atrocious though and should be the highest priority to address, especially if they are going to stay in a cover 2. Cover 2 is useless if you give up big plays, and we give up a bunch. This lays on the safeties.

tastywaves
10-20-2011, 02:01 PM
Rube translation- Like Griffin, the C2 sucks.:rofl:

Perhaps its' time for the C2 to go the way of the wildwood weed.

i_bleed_purple
10-20-2011, 03:20 PM
Why? Cause he did what he was supposed to do, bite on the move to the outside by Hester and couldn't recover in time to blanket him?
That's exactly it.

NFL Videos: Hester gets it started (http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/09000d5d8232ffe5/Hester-gets-it-started)

Watch. There's a camera on Griff the entire time. Are you telling me that looks fast? Or even close? Dude is slow, he cannot keep up. Don't even ask what he's doing at the end of hte play, jogging about 5 yards beside Hester.



You do realize he is supposed to keep to the outside on that and is supposed to rely on the S coming out of the cloud coverage to help.
Right, because you know the playcall,

Last I checked on a post, the corners job is to stay 5 yards outside of the receiver so if he gets hit in stride it's an easy TD. Riiiiiight.


You want to hack on someone for that play, start with the DL that need help, the S that was sent to help and didn't get there cause he hesitated, but don't say that it is indicative of Griff being slow
Yep, because it was the DL that blew double coverage? The S is just as much, if not more to blame than Griff, but I am ABSOLUTELY saying Griff's slowness cost us that.


He has run fine with bigger and better recievers this year,
No, he really hasn't.


to the point he has been playing both sides.

Just because you line up on both sides does NOT mean you are fast. Just because I played a drive at DE in high school does not mean I'm strong enough to play lineman.



In short, Griff isn't our issue. He's a damn fine C2 CB. But hey, if your looking for him to stay with Hester like Revis could, I can see that, but Revis isn't a C2 CB now is he?
I expect Griff to be able to stay witH Hester when asked to play man coverage. If he can't do that, he shouldn't be playing man coverage.

So now you're telling us that it's ok that our CB can't cover? It's not like he was close either, he was far behind, far outside, and simply too slow. Why didn't we put Cook on Hester? he kept up with Calvin Johnson pretty well.

You are simply lying to yourself if you keep saying Griff's knee surgeries haven't slowed him down. They absolutely have. He's look straight up bad in every game so far.

But since you spend the game watching line play, I suppose anything looks fast to you.

tastywaves
10-20-2011, 03:55 PM
That's exactly it.

NFL Videos: Hester gets it started (http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/09000d5d8232ffe5/Hester-gets-it-started)

Watch. There's a camera on Griff the entire time. Are you telling me that looks fast? Or even close? Dude is slow, he cannot keep up. Don't even ask what he's doing at the end of hte play, jogging about 5 yards beside Hester.


Right, because you know the playcall,

Last I checked on a post, the corners job is to stay 5 yards outside of the receiver so if he gets hit in stride it's an easy TD. Riiiiiight.

Yep, because it was the DL that blew double coverage? The S is just as much, if not more to blame than Griff, but I am ABSOLUTELY saying Griff's slowness cost us that.

No, he really hasn't.



Just because you line up on both sides does NOT mean you are fast. Just because I played a drive at DE in high school does not mean I'm strong enough to play lineman.

I expect Griff to be able to stay witH Hester when asked to play man coverage. If he can't do that, he shouldn't be playing man coverage.

So now you're telling us that it's ok that our CB can't cover? It's not like he was close either, he was far behind, far outside, and simply too slow. Why didn't we put Cook on Hester? he kept up with Calvin Johnson pretty well.

You are simply lying to yourself if you keep saying Griff's knee surgeries haven't slowed him down. They absolutely have. He's look straight up bad in every game so far.

But since you spend the game watching line play, I suppose anything looks fast to you.

If this was a sideline pass you could lay more of it on Cedric, but when it's right down the middle 50 yards deep, to one of the fastest recievers in the game, give me a break. There's not many corners in the league that could have defended that play without safety help.

If they are going to ask Griffin to play more man coverage and take the receiver deep, then it's probably not going to work out. This is not the kind of corner he is, especially as he appears to have dropped a step after the knee surgeries...grab a Nnamdi if that is what you want. But don't ask Nnamdi to be a cover 2 corner because he will suck at it.

If you want a true cover 2 corner that plays the traditional CB zone and can play the run as well as the pass, then Cedric is pretty damned good.

This is an old argument on this forum, but we keep coming back to it because people expect corners to excel at 1x1 pass coverage and specialize in pass breakups and int's. Cedric has never been asked to be that type of corner since he's been in MN.

Boring as hell I know, but it is what this damned cover 2 is all about.

Find a safety or linebacker that can take care of their responsibility in pass coverage and you will find Cedric won't have to keep compensating for them.

jmcdon00
10-20-2011, 03:57 PM
Well when you tell your opponents 6 days in advance that your going to start your rookie QB & prepare accordingly, you're not trying to win games either.
I'm assuming Ponder is getting all the snaps with the first team in practice this week. That would have alerted everyone to the fact Ponder would start.

NDVikingFan66
10-20-2011, 04:05 PM
Well when you tell your opponents 6 days in advance that your going to start your rookie QB & prepare accordingly, you're not trying to win games either.

Going to have to disagree with you here. McNabb has played so poorly that a change had to be made, and if Ponder takes all the snaps in practice this week, the opposition will know about it. There is almost no way to keep a secret in today's world.

singersp
10-21-2011, 07:39 AM
Tell me how that puts them in more of a bind than if he had started all year and there was film on him or if he would have stuck with McChunky and they had to prepare for him?

Really, the element of surprise was not going to do anything for us after the first few plays if even then.

Do you really think they were sweating whether they were going to face a rookie or the retread?

Defenses prepare differently against a rookie QB, than they do a seasoned vet. A rookie is going to get rattled a lot easier than a veteran QB would & DC's know it.

singersp
10-21-2011, 07:45 AM
Why? Cause he did what he was supposed to do, bite on the move to the outside by Hester and couldn't recover in time to blanket him?

That's what he was supposed to do?

Silly me! I actually believed he was supposed to A) prevent the receiver from catching the ball or B) prevent the receiver from advancing the ball.

And FYI, that is not the only play he got burned on or tackle he's missed.

singersp
10-21-2011, 07:49 AM
I'm assuming Ponder is getting all the snaps with the first team in practice this week. That would have alerted everyone to the fact Ponder would start.


Going to have to disagree with you here. McNabb has played so poorly that a change had to be made, and if Ponder takes all the snaps in practice this week, the opposition will know about it. There is almost no way to keep a secret in today's world.

Righhhhht! Because the Packers have personnel at Winter Park watching Vikings closed practices.

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 07:54 AM
Defenses prepares differently against a rookie QB, than they do a seasoned vet. A rookie is going to get rattled a lot easier than a veteran QB would & DC's know it.

How could you actually watch McNabb play this season and still make a case that the rookie would get rattled faster than him. Hell, he got rattled and threw a pick 6 on his first play of the year.
If you take a cookie cutter approach to coaching instead of looking at each situation as unique you are not going to last very long and I doubt GB is a team that would.

You have no idea whether Ponder will get rattled easily or not. He may end up crawling in the fetal position and start sucking his thumb in the third series from all of the pressure but he also might have a clearer head than McNabb and actually look more than 5 yards down the field to find a WR. The Packers have almost zero film on Ponder and if the rush him then yes, they may sack the crap out of him all day long, or he might be elusive enough to escape and hit the TE for a big play.

It means nothing that they announced the start when they did. If it was that simple every team would wait until the end of the week to announce a certain player starting.

Heck, last week against Chicago they announced they were shuffling their OL and benching 2 DB's in their secondary. Considering the final score how much of an advantage do you think that gave us compared to if they would have waited until Friday? If the players do their job it isn't an issue.

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 07:56 AM
That's what he was supposed to do?

Silly me! I actually believed he was supposed to A) prevent the receiver from catching the ball or B) prevent the receiver from advancing the ball.

And FYI, that is not the only play he got burned on or tackle he's missed.
See, thats why you keep hacking on him. You don't understand what he is supposed to do in the scheme.

He is supposed to (on a route like that with his S blitzing) keep everything run deep to the inside to help. That is why he bit so hard on the out move, he didn't want Hester to get outside.

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 07:58 AM
Righhhhht! Because the Packers have personnel at Winter Park watching Vikings closed practices.

Well, if they don't, then how is knowing he is going to start going to help them prepare?

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 07:58 AM
How could you actually watch McNabb play this season and still make a case that the rookie would get rattled faster than him. Hell, he got rattled and threw a pick 6 on his first play of the year.
If you take a cookie cutter approach to coaching instead of looking at each situation as unique you are not going to last very long and I doubt GB is a team that would.

You have no idea whether Ponder will get rattled easily or not. He may end up crawling in the fetal position and start sucking his thumb in the third series from all of the pressure but he also might have a clearer head than McNabb and actually look more than 5 yards down the field to find a WR. The Packers have almost zero film on Ponder and if the rush him then yes, they may sack the crap out of him all day long, or he might be elusive enough to escape and hit the TE for a big play.

It means nothing that they announced the start when they did. If it was that simple every team would wait until the end of the week to announce a certain player starting.

Heck, last week against Chicago they announced they were shuffling their OL and benching 2 DB's in their secondary. Considering the final score how much of an advantage do you think that gave us compared to if they would have waited until Friday? If the players do their job it isn't an issue.
Gotta give you a top shelf on this one my friend.

Been saying it all year, I don't think Ponder is a cat who will get rattled or who will be affected by getting whooped up on in his early starts.

I think this kid not only has the physical tools, but the mental game as well and I am 100% convinced we are going to be extremely happy with his showing this weekend especially if our damn DL can get pressure on Rodgers a few times.

singersp
10-21-2011, 08:04 AM
Well, if they don't, then how is knowing he is going to start going to help them prepare?

They'd prepare like they would for any new rookie QB, bringing blitzes & packages that will rattle & confuse him & try & force him to make rookie mistakes.

Doesn't take film to do that.

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 08:04 AM
See, thats why you keep hacking on him. You don't understand what he is supposed to do in the scheme.

He is supposed to (on a route like that with his S blitzing) keep everything run deep to the inside to help. That is why he bit so hard on the out move, he didn't want Hester to get outside.
I have to side with you on this one for the play in question. It was his responsibility to pass Hester off to the safety over the top once he got so deep but the Safety was not there. I don't remember the safety blitzing but blowing his assignment and being 5 yards slower than Griff.

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 08:06 AM
They'd prepare like they would for any new rookie QB, bringing blitzes & packages that will rattle & confuse him & try & force him to make rookie mistakes.

Doesn't take film to do that.

Well it doesn't take days to plug the packages in either. Heck, I hope they prepared for Newton then because I would love to see Ponder throw for 400+ on Sunday.

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 08:14 AM
I have to side with you on this one for the play in question. It was his responsibility to pass Hester off to the safety over the top once he got so deep but the Safety was not there. I don't remember the safety blitzing but blowing his assignment and being 5 yards slower than Griff.
Key to the play was for Griff to keep Hester inside long enough for the S to get there on the blitz and for the other S to get over for help if he didn't.

Both S's failed but because everyone seems to think we have shut down corners they hack on the corner for poor play when he actually did exactly what he was supposed to do in the scheme.

Same thing applies to the Saftey on Dnabb. Everyone looks at Sully when in fact he did exactly what he was supposed to do, push the guy into Hutch's gap and then engage the MLB coming on the blitz. Gaff on Hutch, not Sully, again, he did exactly what he was supposed to do.

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 08:18 AM
They'd prepare like they would for any new rookie QB, bringing blitzes & packages that will rattle & confuse him & try & force him to make rookie mistakes.

Doesn't take film to do that.
I'm Pondering why everyone seems to think that all of a sudden the PUKERS are going to come up with some blitz packages that work against a rookie when they haven't been able to get them to work this year? If memory server, didn't a rookie already light them up this year to the tune of something over 400 yards?

singersp
10-21-2011, 08:19 AM
How could you actually watch McNabb play this season and still make a case that the rookie would get rattled faster than him. Hell, he got rattled and threw a pick 6 on his first play of the year.
If you take a cookie cutter approach to coaching instead of looking at each situation as unique you are not going to last very long and I doubt GB is a team that would.

You have no idea whether Ponder will get rattled easily or not. He may end up crawling in the fetal position and start sucking his thumb in the third series from all of the pressure but he also might have a clearer head than McNabb and actually look more than 5 yards down the field to find a WR. The Packers have almost zero film on Ponder and if the rush him then yes, they may sack the crap out of him all day long, or he might be elusive enough to escape and hit the TE for a big play.

It means nothing that they announced the start when they did. If it was that simple every team would wait until the end of the week to announce a certain player starting.

Heck, last week against Chicago they announced they were shuffling their OL and benching 2 DB's in their secondary. Considering the final score how much of an advantage do you think that gave us compared to if they would have waited until Friday? If the players do their job it isn't an issue.

Don't confuse McNabb's ineptness with him being rattled. Teams do & will prepare differently against a rookie QB than the do a veteran.

Trying to rattle & confuse a rookie QB may be a cookie cutter approach, but that is still what you try & do. You simply can't blow it off & believe rattling him won't work. There's a reason most teams try & do exactly that.

Will he get rattled & confused? That remains to be seen, but rest assured, they'll try exactly that. You also can't bank on him not getting rattled because he didn't against the Bears who not only are one of the worst teams in the league against the pass & the run, but it was also during garbage time. How many of their starters on defense were even still in there?

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 08:23 AM
Don't confuse McNabb's ineptness with him being rattled. Teams do & will prepare differently against a rookie QB than the do a veteran.

Trying to rattle & confuse a rookie QB may be a cookie cutter approach, but that is still what you try & do. You simply can't blow it off & believe rattling him won't work. There's a reason most teams try & do exactly that.

Will he get rattled & confused? That remains to be seen, but rest assured, they'll try exactly that. You also can't bank on him not getting rattled because he didn't against the Bears who not only are one of the worst teams in the league against the pass & the run, but it was also during garbage time. How many of their starters on defense were even still in there?
Two things.

1. Dnabb got rattle twice against the Bores. First time was when he fell on the ground in the fetal position like a little baby for a Saftey without even stepping forward to get out of the endzone (there was room to do it) and when he ran away from Peppers and didn't throw the ball away. ln short, all QBs get rattled, even seasoned vets.

2. Go look at the tape. Ponders first series was against their starters. I kindof laughed how quickly they got them out after he started to make them look bad.

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 08:25 AM
Key to the play was for Griff to keep Hester inside long enough for the S to get there on the blitz and for the other S to get over for help if he didn't.

Yeah. Too bad that our secondary doesn't have the speed to pull off those types of scenarios.
The blitzing S was too slow to get to the QB.
The CB was too slow to keep up with the WR once the other S didn't have the speed to get to the WR across the middle. Looks like we were 0-3 in the speed dept.


Both S's failed but because everyone seems to think we have shut down corners they hack on the corner for poor play when he actually did exactly what he was supposed to do in the scheme.

Well, if both Safeties failed then our only hoe is that the CB can do a little more to prevent the play from going wrong. But we don't have enough speed to mask those weaknesses and offenses know that and exploit us. Hence, we should really look at getting faster players who can negate some of those vulnerabilities.




Same thing applies to the Saftey on Dnabb. Everyone looks at Sully when in fact he did exactly what he was supposed to do, push the guy into Hutch's gap and then engage the MLB coming on the blitz. Gaff on Hutch, not Sully, again, he did exactly what he was supposed to do.

I guess I didn't see too many hacking on Sully for that play. I know I didn't. But then again the whole OL is in shambles so singling out one individual in a sea of ineptitude seems pointless anyway.

singersp
10-21-2011, 08:27 AM
Key to the play was for Griff to keep Hester inside long enough for the S to get there on the blitz and for the other S to get over for help if he didn't.

Both S's failed but because everyone seems to think we have shut down corners they hack on the corner for poor play when he actually did exactly what he was supposed to do in the scheme.

Same thing applies to the Saftey on Dnabb. Everyone looks at Sully when in fact he did exactly what he was supposed to do, push the guy into Hutch's gap and then engage the MLB coming on the blitz. Gaff on Hutch, not Sully, again, he did exactly what he was supposed to do.

Again, you two keep dwelling on that one play as if that's the only time he's gotten burned, blew a tackle or was to damn slow to make a play.

Cedric is much slower now and is more of a liability than an asset. Why the love fest for him continues is beyond me.

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 08:36 AM
Yeah. Too bad that our secondary doesn't have the speed to pull off those types of scenarios.
The blitzing S was too slow to get to the QB.
The CB was too slow to keep up with the WR once the other S didn't have the speed to get to the WR across the middle. Looks like we were 0-3 in the speed dept.

Well, if both Safeties failed then our only hoe is that the CB can do a little more to prevent the play from going wrong. But we don't have enough speed to mask those weaknesses and offenses know that and exploit us. Hence, we should really look at getting faster players who can negate some of those vulnerabilities.

Keep in mind something I continually preach on here. Our guys on the backend are built to play 1/4'rs in the C2. You don't need speed to do that. You just need to keep them in their zones.

Same applies to our LB'rs. They have been hacked on by posters on here as well as in the press for being slow in coverage. Again, they have enough speed to drop into those short zones.

Were we get into trouble is when you take one of them out of that zone (be it a CB, S or LB) to help the DL get pressure and now that speed (or lack thereof) is/can be exposed. Teams like the Jets can afford to expose their CB's. They have some of the rare breed that have the ability to be shutdown CB's. Notice I said rare breed. There just aren't alot of them running around, thats why the C2/T2 was invented.

It allows coaches to take slower players and use them to defend against the pass effectively but you have to have pressure from your front 4 consistently to make it work. Our problem is, so far this year, and most of last, we haven't had that type of pressure. We use ALOT of help from our LB'rs, S's and Whinny.



I guess I didn't see too many hacking on Sully for that play. I know I didn't. But then again the whole OL is in shambles so singling out one individual in a sea of ineptitude seems pointless anyway.
Lots of yutz reporters writing articles on it.

On a side note, if Dnabb would have made 5 or 6 more completions this year, our OL statistics would be alot better than they are. I think you will see a much different play (even though it will be the same) from our OL now that we have a QB that can get the ball, not only to the recievers, but to them in a manner that they can actually continue to run with it after they catch it.

I've said it several times this year. Go watch the balls that were actually caught. I haven't figured out an actual average, but I bet it is over 95% of them were caught by a reciever standing still. Very few were caught by the reciever on the move in a designed route and of those that were caught in that manner, the reciever had to reach back, down, or over his head to catch it.

Again, going on that premise, cause Dnabb has for the most part, had alot of time to throw, I think people will start to forget out the ole cliche' about our OL woes.

Freya
10-21-2011, 08:37 AM
Why? Cause he did what he was supposed to do, bite on the move to the outside by Hester and couldn't recover in time to blanket him?

You do realize he is supposed to keep to the outside on that and is supposed to rely on the S coming out of the cloud coverage to help.

You want to hack on someone for that play, start with the DL that need help, the S that was sent to help and didn't get there cause he hesitated, but don't say that it is indicative of Griff being slow.

He has run fine with bigger and better recievers this year, to the point he has been playing both sides.

In short, Griff isn't our issue. He's a damn fine C2 CB. But hey, if your looking for him to stay with Hester like Revis could, I can see that, but Revis isn't a C2 CB now is he?

Oh Marrdro.............You are pointing out ONE play in ONE game. The fact is that Griffin has NEVER been an asset to this team (which number 23 are you watching?!? ;)) He is slow and gets smoked more often than not, he will never be accused of being a good tackler (not even in the same ballpark as Winfield).......basically, on a good day he is inconsistent at best and a flat out disaster at worst. No one worries about him and most of the time the opposing team puts their best player on his watch.

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 08:42 AM
Don't confuse McNabb's ineptness with him being rattled. Teams do & will prepare differently against a rookie QB than the do a veteran.

I guess the only other way to answer that is so what? Hell, if we hadn't brought McChunky in this year then every team would have been preparing for a rookie and I would be the house that we wouldn't have lost more than one more game so far this season than we have now.

You have been a Vikings fan for a hell of a long time. Think back to all of the games where the Vikings have faced some unknown QB that they had a week to prepare for that came in and had a career game against us over the last 30 years.


Trying to rattle & confuse a rookie QB may be a cookie cutter approach, but that is still what you try & do. You simply can't blow it off & believe rattling him won't work. There's a reason most teams try & do exactly that.

Seriously- That is no different than what they would have done to old McBlowchunks. They know our OL is terrible and the QB is terrible and there is no way they were going to lay back in coverage and give him time to throw the ball either.

Tell me this- If they are putting these exotic packages in that you speak of, where did they get the film that showed the QB's tendencies that tell them those are the right blitzes to call?

If the blitzes are really that exotic, then why would they also not work on a vet QB who wouldn't have seen anything like that due to it's exoticness?


Will he get rattled & confused? That remains to be seen, but rest assured, they'll try exactly that. You also can't bank on him not getting rattled because he didn't against the Bears who not only are one of the worst teams in the league against the pass & the run, but it was also during garbage time. How many of their starters on defense were even still in there?

OK lets take this a step farther. How about the next game against Carolina or the Packers game after the bye. Unless something catastrophic happens Ponder will be the starter for those games and the teams will have both game film and even more time to install those exotic blitzes to confuse him.

Are you saying that we should go the rest of the season not naming him the starter so that those teams don't have the time to install their exotic blitz packages against him? Or will he go through some dramatic QB cherry popping where after the first time he will be broke in and good to go for the rest of his career?

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 08:44 AM
Oh Marrdro.............You are pointing out ONE play in ONE game. The fact is that Griffin has NEVER been an asset to this team (which number 23 are you watching?!? ;)) He is slow and gets smoked more often than not, he will never be accused of being a good tackler (not even in the same ballpark as Winfield).......basically, on a good day he is inconsistent at best and a flat out disaster at worst. No one worries about him and most of the time the opposing team puts their best player on his watch.
Uhhhhh Ohhhhh, I got the smart football chick after me......:haha:

I agree, he isn't fast, but if I had access to the tape I could point out alot of intances were the ball wasn't thrown his way when he was facing the better reciever. Watch the games, he plays both CB spots alot and does it pretty well.

Is he a shut down corner? No, not saying that. He is a damn fine C2 CB that plays the position pretty damn good. Its when he is asked to be a shut down CB that you see flaws in his game just like you do with Whinny.

Wanna see someone slow? When your watching that tape to see how many throws don't go Griffs way, watch how many were completed to Whinny as the TE or slot guy came across the middle. In almost all instance you will see the reciever coming from the right side, to the left, and you will see Griff disengage his coverage in time to get over and make a tackle.

Happens alot.

One goog thing, I will admit, Cook seems to have the makings of a shutdown CB. Maybe we can find another one in the draft or via FA this year and then move Griff into the inside. I think he would be excellent in there.

singersp
10-21-2011, 08:54 AM
I guess the only other way to answer that is so what? Hell, if we hadn't brought McChunky in this year then every team would have been preparing for a rookie and I would be the house that we wouldn't have lost more than one more game so far this season than we have now.

You have been a Vikings fan for a hell of a long time. Think back to all of the games where the Vikings have faced some unknown QB that they had a week to prepare for that came in and had a career game against us over the last 30 years.



Seriously- That is no different than what they would have done to old McBlowchunks. They know our OL is terrible and the QB is terrible and there is no way they were going to lay back in coverage and give him time to throw the ball either.

Tell me this- If they are putting these exotic packages in that you speak of, where did they get the film that showed the QB's tendencies that tell them those are the right blitzes to call?

If the blitzes are really that exotic, then why would they also not work on a vet QB who wouldn't have seen anything like that due to it's exoticness?



OK lets take this a step farther. How about the next game against Carolina or the Packers game after the bye. Unless something catastrophic happens Ponder will be the starter for those games and the teams will have both game film and even more time to install those exotic blitzes to confuse him.

Are you saying that we should go the rest of the season not naming him the starter so that those teams don't have the time to install their exotic blitz packages against him? Or will he go through some dramatic QB cherry popping where after the first time he will be broke in and good to go for the rest of his career?

Quite simply put, they'll try and blitz Ponder & rattle his cage. As more film on him becomes available, those defenses will be honed to use those tendencies to their advantage.

I have a hard time believing that defenses will prepare the same against a QB regardless of who he is.

Do you also believe defenses prepare the same whether or not they are going to face Brady or Jackson?

How about the Colts. Do you also believe defenses prepare the same whether or not they are going to face Peyton or Collins or Painter?

singersp
10-21-2011, 08:56 AM
Uhhhhh Ohhhhh, I got the smart football chick after me......:haha:

I agree, he isn't fast.

Is he a shut down corner? No, not saying that.

"Nuff" said

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 08:59 AM
Keep in mind something I continually preach on here. Our guys on the backend are built to play 1/4'rs in the C2. You don't need speed to do that. You just need to keep them in their zones.

That would be believable if every QB we faced wasn't able to carve up the secondary and LB's when they wanted to. If you only want to bleed a slow death then slow players are fine. But speed can take a fairly large zone and shrink it to the point where a QB has much fewer options and if we had that we may not be at the bottom of the league is yards given up.


Same applies to our LB'rs. They have been hacked on by posters on here as well as in the press for being slow in coverage. Again, they have enough speed to drop into those short zones.

They have enough speed to get into an area and sometimes make a tackle after the pass is completed but they do not have the speed to shut down the opponents and force the QB to either hold the ball too long so the DL can get to him or to INT the ball because they were right with the WR/TE.
As a defense they do not contest anything and a passive defense is not something I enjoy watching.


Were we get into trouble is when you take one of them out of that zone (be it a CB, S or LB) to help the DL get pressure and now that speed (or lack thereof) is/can be exposed. Teams like the Jets can afford to expose their CB's. They have some of the rare breed that have the ability to be shutdown CB's. Notice I said rare breed. There just aren't alot of them running around, thats why the C2/T2 was invented.

You have it backwards Marty. They are bringing the blitz not because the DL is not doing their job but because the coverage is too slow and they are trying to get to the QB before he can get to the secondary. No DL in the league can get to a QB fast enough when the zones are that big and the coverage is that loose. Get faster defenders who can actually get within 3 yards of a WR and you will see the QB holding the ball a click longer and then the DL will be putting him on the ground all day long.


It allows coaches to take slower players and use them to defend against the pass effectively but you have to have pressure from your front 4 consistently to make it work. Our problem is, so far this year, and most of last, we haven't had that type of pressure. We use ALOT of help from our LB'rs, S's and Whinny.

We have the NFL sack leader and a LDE that has more sacks at this point in the season than we have had in a generation from that position. The problem is not pressure, it is that the QB can throw at will all over the field and the 2ndary does nothing to stop it.



Lots of yutz reporters writing articles on it.

I thought you didn't pay attention to Yutz's.:p


On a side note, if Dnabb would have made 5 or 6 more completions this year, our OL statistics would be alot better than they are. I think you will see a much different play (even though it will be the same) from our OL now that we have a QB that can get the ball, not only to the recievers, but to them in a manner that they can actually continue to run with it after they catch it.
On a side note- if we would have won 5 more games we would be undefeated.:flame:


I've said it several times this year. Go watch the balls that were actually caught. I haven't figured out an actual average, but I bet it is over 95% of them were caught by a reciever standing still. Very few were caught by the reciever on the move in a designed route and of those that were caught in that manner, the reciever had to reach back, down, or over his head to catch it.

Yeah, if we still had Brett playing we would have been 5-1 right now..........


Again, going on that premise, cause Dnabb has for the most part, had alot of time to throw, I think people will start to forget out the ole cliche' about our OL woes.

Interesting because when Ponder came in I didn't see him getting a lot of time to throw. He made time by evading the rush caused by broken down pass protection but what he got was certainly not to the credit of the OL.

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 09:02 AM
Quite simply put, they'll try and blitz Ponder & rattle his cage. As more film on him becomes available, those defenses will be honed to use those tendencies to their advantage.


I have a hard time believing that defenses will prepare the same against a QB regardless of who he is.

Do you also believe defenses prepare the same whether or not they are going to face Brady or Jackson?

How about the Colts. Do you also believe defenses prepare the same whether or not they are going to face Peyton or Collins or Painter?

You didn't answer the question. Do they need to wait until game time for the rest of the year to announce the starter so the defense can't install their exotic blitzes or will you call frazier an idiot if he announce Ponder as the starter for the rest of the season because he tipped his hand?

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 09:13 AM
You have it backwards Marty. They are bringing the blitz not because the DL is not doing their job but because the coverage is too slow and they are trying to get to the QB before he can get to the secondary. No DL in the league can get to a QB fast enough when the zones are that big and the coverage is that loose. Get faster defenders who can actually get within 3 yards of a WR and you will see the QB holding the ball a click longer and then the DL will be putting him on the ground all day long.

I have nothing backwards.

The whole C2/T2 defense is designed to be effective but only if your front 4 can get pressure alone.

Will it give up alot of short passes to recievers? Sure, but it doesn't give up the deep ball and forces offenses to be patient dinking and dunking down the field.


The term "Cover 2" derives from the defensive strategy of separating the deep half of the field (starting at about 15 yards from the line of scrimmage) into two zones. Each of these deep zones is played by one of the safeties. Bud Carson, defensive coach for the Steelers "Steel Curtain" teams is said to have been the originator of this scheme. The four defensive linemen rush the quarterback, while the three linebackers and two cornerbacks separate the part of the field in front of the safeties into five smaller zones. Therefore, the Cover 2 is an entirely zone defense (no man-to-man coverage) that is deployed out a basic 4-3 personnel set (4 linemen, three linebackers).



The second flaw is that you are completely reliant on your four defensive linemen to create pressure on the quarterback. With athletic and smart players, and the right grouping of personnel, these flaws can be reduced significantly.

Understanding NFL Football: The Cover 2 Defense - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/354520/understanding_nfl_football_the_cover.html)

Lots of other articles out there that you can read that basically say the same thing.

As to our "Sack Leader". Watch when JA gets his sacks. Not many come with just our Front 4 getting the pressure. Almost all of them come when we have atleast 2 LB'rs show a "Mug" look in the A or A and B gaps presnap.

Again, once you start bringing help, you aren't playing the C2 anymore. Your playing either a Cover 3 (Cloud) or a man to man press look. When you start doing that, as you said, our defense can get carved up.

Blame the secondary if you want, but reality is, our scheme won't work without our DL doing its job. Even though we have some sacks, it isn't, for the most part, doing its job.

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 09:25 AM
I have nothing backwards.

The whole C2/T2 defense is designed to be effective but only if your front 4 can get pressure alone.

Will it give up alot of short passes to recievers? Sure, but it doesn't give up the deep ball and forces offenses to be patient dinking and dunking down the field.





Understanding NFL Football: The Cover 2 Defense - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/354520/understanding_nfl_football_the_cover.html)

Lots of other articles out there that you can read that basically say the same thing.

As to our "Sack Leader". Watch when JA gets his sacks. Not many come with just our Front 4 getting the pressure. Almost all of them come when we have atleast 2 LB'rs show a "Mug" look in the A or A and B gaps presnap.

Again, once you start bringing help, you aren't playing the C2 anymore. Your playing either a Cover 3 (Cloud) or a man to man press look. When you start doing that, as you said, our defense can get carved up.

Blame the secondary if you want, but reality is, our scheme won't work without our DL doing its job. Even though we have some sacks, it isn't, for the most part, doing its job.

Trust me, I understand the philosophy of the C2/T2. Where we apparently differ is that I understand that you are never going to have a situation where the DL is going to get pressure 100% of the time and dominate every play.

If the DL is so inadequate, then name me 10 teams you would trade their DL straight up for ours and that would magically make our LB and 2ndary look good.

Also, name me one team that plays T2 that stays in that formation exclusively without going to your beloved cloud package or C3 etc. You have to be flexible and if teams keep in an extra blocker to negate a 4 man rush you need the speed and talent( along with the coaching) to be able to adapt and adjust and still not get burned. No team in the league runs out of their base defense 100%.

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 09:35 AM
Trust me, I understand the philosophy of the C2/T2. Where we apparently differ is that I understand that you are never going to have a situation where the DL is going to get pressure 100% of the time and dominate every play.

If the DL is so inadequate, then name me 10 teams you would trade their DL straight up for ours and that would magically make our LB and 2ndary look good.

Also, name me one team that plays T2 that stays in that formation exclusively without going to your beloved cloud package or C3 etc. You have to be flexible and if teams keep in an extra blocker to negate a 4 man rush you need the speed and talent( along with the coaching) to be able to adapt and adjust and still not get burned. No team in the league runs out of their base defense 100%.
Two things, ........

1. I have never once said "Exclusively". I am more than aware that our DL will need help. I think you will remember hearing me beeeeyyyyyacth and complain how shitty we are at disguising our blitz's. We suck at it. When I am hacking on our DL I am talking about times were our DL can't beat the OL when there is no help in there.

JA was left unblocked for 4 or 5 plays last week for cripes sake and that was against the worst OL in the league.

2. Lions in a heartbeat if your asking 4-3. Houston if they had Mario back healthy. Give the Pats another 3 or 4 games and they will have the 4-3 back under control again. 3-4, Ravens (minus the murder).

i_bleed_purple
10-21-2011, 09:41 AM
Two things, ........

1. I have never once said "Exclusively". I am more than aware that our DL will need help. I think you will remember hearing me beeeeyyyyyacth and complain how shitty we are at disguising our blitz's. We suck at it. When I am hacking on our DL I am talking about times were our DL can't beat the OL when there is no help in there.

JA was left unblocked for 4 or 5 plays last week for cripes sake and that was against the worst OL in the league.

2. Lions in a heartbeat if your asking 4-3. Houston if they had Mario back healthy. Give the Pats another 3 or 4 games and they will have the 4-3 back under control again. 3-4, Ravens (minus the murder).

PF asks for 10, you come up with 4 of the best units in the league.

What I find amazing, is you seem so content with shitty play from other units (OL, Safety, Corner, FB, etc), but when it comes to DL, seems you want pressure every single play. Newsflash... it doesn't happen that way.

Marrdro
10-21-2011, 09:53 AM
PF asks for 10, you come up with 4 of the best units in the league.

Two thoughts....

1. Maybe I can't come up with 10 that I like better than our DL. That thought occur to you? Look, I don't hate our DL. I just wish we could either get it to produce based on the scheme we run or get the frick away from the C2 scheme.

Problem is, we don't have the DB's to get away from it and we don't have the DL that can play it without a 0 tech NT/DT.

2. Are you saying the Pats Defense is one of the best units? Wow, as always, you seem to miss the point.


What I find amazing, is you seem so content with shitty play from other units (OL, Safety, Corner, FB, etc), but when it comes to DL, seems you want pressure every single play. Newsflash... it doesn't happen that way
Speaking of missing the point (aka being confused), our OL plays well enough to execute the scheme and is by far and away not shitty.

And show me one place were I ever said I want pressure on every play from our DL.

Hang in there my friend. I still like talking with you though. I'd kill to get up there this weekend to suds a few with ya.

tastywaves
10-21-2011, 11:08 AM
Two thoughts....

1. Maybe I can't come up with 10 that I like better than our DL. That thought occur to you? Look, I don't hate our DL. I just wish we could either get it to produce based on the scheme we run or get the frick away from the C2 scheme.

Problem is, we don't have the DB's to get away from it and we don't have the DL that can play it without a 0 tech NT/DT.

2. Are you saying the Pats Defense is one of the best units? Wow, as always, you seem to miss the point.


Speaking of missing the point (aka being confused), our OL plays well enough to execute the scheme and is by far and away not shitty.

And show me one place were I ever said I want pressure on every play from our DL.

Hang in there my friend. I still like talking with you though. I'd kill to get up there this weekend to suds a few with ya.

In summary, the simple solution to the problem is to get better play from the linebackers and safeties. Our DL will look better, our corner's will look better and opposing QB's will not have such an easy time carving us up at will.

The DL is not the issue, it is our strength and because of it team's plan to neutralize it. Unfortunately for us, we have no answer to it.

Same issue is mirrored on our offense. it is one dimensional, take away our running game and force us to pass. Unfortunately, we have no answer to it.

Is there a easier team in the league to gameplan against then the Vikings? I don't think so.

NDVikingFan66
10-21-2011, 11:25 AM
Righhhhht! Because the Packers have personnel at Winter Park watching Vikings closed practices.

They don't need to. But think of the numbers of people you are talking about. Players, coaches, Vikings officials, reporters, the janitor, waterboy, on and on and on. And let's not forget McNabb himself. Do you really think just based on the sheer number of people involved that everyone can keep a secret? Maybe back in the day of Grant and Lombardi, because there was no technology, but not now.

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 11:49 AM
Two things, ........

1. I have never once said "Exclusively". I am more than aware that our DL will need help. I think you will remember hearing me beeeeyyyyyacth and complain how shitty we are at disguising our blitz's. We suck at it. When I am hacking on our DL I am talking about times were our DL can't beat the OL when there is no help in there.

But that is not what you are saying. You are saying the DL is a weaker unit than the LB or secondary and as far as I can see you are the only person who will make that case. I personally don't think the unit is bulletproof and I know they are going to have a mistake here or there, but the mistakes they will make and the deficiencies they have are not as great as the two units behind them.


JA was left unblocked for 4 or 5 plays last week for cripes sake and that was against the worst OL in the league.

After watching that game there is no way their OL is worse than ours.


Finally- some meat for the discussion:

2. Lions in a heartbeat if your asking 4-3
You do realize both Allen and Robison have more sacks/tackles than Vandenbosh don't you? Heck, VDB is the highest rated player on their line and he ranks 17 on NFL.Com and both of our DE's are higher than that.



. Houston if they had Mario back healthy.

Allen is rated higher than Mario and Robison is right there with more tackles ( even though he won't hold up in the run game right?) and only has .5 fewer sacks.

The rest of their line is nothing better than what we have.



Give the Pats another 3 or 4 games and they will have the 4-3 back under control again.
That is yet to be seen. Besides your fatass Wilfork you would take their DE's over ours? Interesting. Do they get pressure every play so the DB's don't have to blitz? Look at their stats again my friend.....



3-4, Ravens (minus the murder).

A 3-4 team? Come on Marty- there is a boatload of 4-3 teams you must be drooling over who would be better than our guys up front.

Purple Floyd
10-21-2011, 11:50 AM
In summary, the simple solution to the problem is to get better play from the linebackers and safeties. Our DL will look better, our corner's will look better and opposing QB's will not have such an easy time carving us up at will.

The DL is not the issue, it is our strength and because of it team's plan to neutralize it. Unfortunately for us, we have no answer to it.

Same issue is mirrored on our offense. it is one dimensional, take away our running game and force us to pass. Unfortunately, we have no answer to it.

Is there a easier team in the league to gameplan against then the Vikings? I don't think so.

Good post.