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View Full Version : Stats Aside, Was a Corner Turned?



Webby
10-09-2011, 08:34 PM
Looking at the emotions of the team, and the benching of Berrian and Cedric, and other things surrounding this game including AP taking the lead emotionally with the O instead of McNabb....

Did we turn a corner as a team today?

Or is this a result of playing a powder puff team like we did today?

Krumb
10-09-2011, 08:44 PM
Peterson looked solid today, he has moments where he just flat refuses to get tackled.

I still would like to see McNabb stop skipping passes to receivers.

Side note what happened with Cedric? was at the game so I didn't hear any commentary on it.

Caine
10-09-2011, 08:46 PM
A little of both. McNabb won't get us there, and that's been realized. Berrian is a drain...and that's been realized. Peterson hates to lose...and he's put everyone on notice about that.

But we won today on Defense, not really on Offense. Sure, Peterson punched in 3 of the 4, but we started in great position...and did squat the rest of the game.

So I think it's far too early to say we've turned a corner...we have Chicago, Green Bay and Carolina coming up. Let's see how we respond to them...

Caine

Purple Floyd
10-09-2011, 08:47 PM
Not until there is one more roster move.

Webby
10-09-2011, 08:55 PM
Peterson looked solid today, he has moments where he just flat refuses to get tackled.

I still would like to see McNabb stop skipping passes to receivers.

Side note what happened with Cedric? was at the game so I didn't hear any commentary on it.

Cedric was benched first series as disciplinary action.

skum
10-09-2011, 09:02 PM
Lets beat the bears and then we talk

singersp
10-09-2011, 09:09 PM
....we won today on Defense, not really on Offense. Sure, Peterson punched in 3 of the 4, but we started in great position...and did squat the rest of the game.



That's the way I saw it, but would include the 22 yard punt return to the Cardinals 18 by Sherels, which set up the first Vikings TD.

Contrary to some peoples belief, the fact that AD got more touches today in the 2nd half wasn't a factor in the win. We were up 28-0 after his first 9 runs.

AD was 9/59 (6.5ypc) after his 3rd TD run. at the half he was 13/86 (6.6ypc)

In the second half he was 16/36 (2.2ypc) which is much worse than his already 3.0YPC season avg in the second half, proving once again that giving AD the rock in the 2nd half isn't ineffective in sustaining drives.

Giving it to him more in the 2nd half is just giving us more of the same, if not worse, ineffectiveness.

Caine
10-09-2011, 09:13 PM
That's the way I saw it, but would include the 22 yard punt return to the Cardinals 18 by Sherels, which set up the first Vikings TD.

Contrary to some peoples belief, the fact that AD got more touches today in the 2nd half wasn't a factor in the win. We were up 28-0 after his first 9 runs.

AD was 9/59 (6.5ypc) after his 3rd TD run. at the half he was 13/86 (6.6ypc)

In the second half he was 16/36 (2.8ypc) which is worse than his already 3.0YPC season avg in the second half, proving once again that giving AD the rock in the 2nd half isn't ineffective in sustaining drives.

Giving it to him more in the 2nd half is just giving us more of the same ineffectiveness.

You're right about the punt return...I left that off.

But I disagree about Peterson. Giving him the ball more kept the clock moving....something a McNabb incompletion wouldn't do. Therefore, even though from a scoring/yardage point of view Petersons touches in the 2nd half weren't as effective, they gave Arizona less time to get their act together and come back and beat us.

Caine

singersp
10-09-2011, 09:29 PM
Looking at the emotions of the team, and the benching of Berrian and Cedric, and other things surrounding this game including AP taking the lead emotionally with the O instead of McNabb....

Did we turn a corner as a team today?

Or is this a result of playing a powder puff team like we did today?

I think it has more to do with the turnovers & ending up with great field position that did it.

Our 4 TD's came off of 18,24,25 & 27 drives. How did we do again on our long drives?

We may have turned a corner as far as defense is concerned, but on sustained drives we didn't get it done.

As much flack as Chris Cook has taken this year, I think he's been playing pretty damn good lately & not deserving of the criticism.

I do believe we turned the corner on Berrian, although I'd rather see Aromashodu replacing him rather than Jenkins.

In just his 4 catches this year in 3 games, he has gained more yards than Berrian has in his last 11 games.

STCLOUDSAYSGOVIKES
10-09-2011, 09:34 PM
I remember AP used to love to high step at the goal line, but in more of a showboat way.

There was a few times, that high stepping would have worked to get out of the grasp, or allow him to pull away from a receiver.

It seems to be the standard, but i am certainly not the only one frustrated with not doing anything inside the last 30 secs. or so of the first half.

There were many players that feel the same way, and they are ultimately the ones that matter. What was nice, is that they said publicly they are frustrated.

vikinggreg
10-09-2011, 09:44 PM
I think it has more to do with the turnovers & ending up with great field position that did it.

Our 4 TD's came off of 18,24,25 & 27 drives. How did we do again on our long drives?

We may have turned a corner as far as defense is concerned, but on sustained drives we didn't get it done.

As much flack as Chris Cook has taken this year, I think he's been playing pretty damn good lately & not deserving of the criticism.

I do believe we turned the corner on Berrian, although I'd rather see Aromashodu replacing him rather than Jenkins.

In just his 4 catches this year in 3 games, he has gained more yards than Berrian has in his last 11 games.

Cook has been doing well

As for Berrian and Aromashodu aren't they both x receivers and Jenkins and Camarillo are more the z with Harvin if Harvin isn't in the y and we don't use multiple TE's and a FB.....where's Marty


But Berrian did seem to be in his best spot today for the team on the inactive

singersp
10-09-2011, 09:54 PM
If our offense can sustain long drives & put up TD's in not only quarters 1 & 2, but 3 & 4 as well, then maybe we've turned a corner.

When our QB can consistently complete 64% of his passes again, then maybe we've turned a corner.

If we continue to have a lot less major penalties & continue to win the turnover battle, then maybe we've turned a corner.

If AD can average the same many YPC in the 2nd half as he's done so far in the 1st half, then maybe we've turned a corner.

If we can beat a team like GB in 2 weeks, rather than a 1-3 team in a weak division, then maybe we've turned a corner.

singersp
10-09-2011, 10:02 PM
Cook has been doing well

As for Berrian and Aromashodu aren't they both x receivers and Jenkins and Camarillo are more the z with Harvin if Harvin isn't in the y and we don't use multiple TE's and a FB.....where's Marty

But Berrian did seem to be in his best spot today for the team on the inactive

Berrian and Aromashodu are both "X" receivers, which is why I said to replace Berrian with Aromashodu.

singersp
10-09-2011, 10:05 PM
Cedric was benched first series as disciplinary action.

What was he disciplined for?

Did he burst out laughing or applaud when the coach announced Berrian would be inactive?

Traveling_Vike
10-09-2011, 10:33 PM
I would say that emotionally, yes, we have turned a corner. That first win can go a long way toward boosting confidence,

Physically, not so much. It was for the most part more of the same.

The one unit that did look better to me was the O-line. It might be, though, that AZ has a weak pass rush. I will give our guys credit, though, for fewer penalties.

Defense did not tire out quite as much, kept playing hard right up to the end.

All in all, I will wait until I see our performance next week before committing to the "we've turned it around" bandwagon. Even if it's a loss (in Chicago, seems likely), a more solid performance will go a long way toward convincing me.

jargomcfargo
10-09-2011, 11:11 PM
It will take this season and the off season, perhaps next season as well, to turn the corner.
This was a good win and showed that some of the young players are improving, some of the established players still have what it takes, and some of the players we don't need.

However now we won't win another game before the bye.
But this is a team that will be better at the end of the season than we are now.

We have QB that can only deliver about 1 out 8 passes any where near a receiver.
Webb wouldn't do any worse and Ponder would likely do better. Expect to see a change after the bye.
This team is still learning and will be better next year and pretty darn good in a couple years.
I'm afraid we are just entering the corner.

Gift
10-10-2011, 12:17 AM
It seems to be the standard, but i am certainly not the only one frustrated with not doing anything inside the last 30 secs. or so of the first half.
Trying to force something when we are ahead by 24pts & have an incompetent offence seems really silly to me

digital420
10-10-2011, 05:45 AM
The only corner i see we turned in our first win would be.
1. AP got the ball more as it should be
2. D played a full game
3. our pass rush kept it all game. and BRob has shown i think that he deserved the promotion to starter..

DiGiTaL

Purple Floyd
10-10-2011, 06:31 AM
This team is still learning and will be better next year and pretty darn good in a couple years.
I'm afraid we are just entering the corner.

I agree with most of what you posted but the team has 17 guys on the roster that will need to get new contracts or will go elsewhere next year. We are in no way out of the woods or turning a corner. We did just get past a speed bump and now are nearing a few steep hills before the road flattens out if you want an analogy IMHO lol.

singersp
10-10-2011, 07:17 AM
The only corner i see we turned in our first win would be.
1. AP got the ball more as it should be
DiGiTaL

Again. I got to disagree. How many points did we score in the 2nd half?

In the 2nd half of the game with those extra carries, AD was 16/36 & averaged a measly 2.2 yards, which isn't shit.

When AD was averaging 20 touches a game, he was only averaging 3.0YPC in the second half, which still isn't getting it done.

Those last 9 carries.....the "MORE" touches he got that many fans were screaming for: 9/21 or 2.3YPC. Again crap.

Bottom line, when your team is passing like crap in the 2nd half & your star RB is running like crap in the second half, your going to give your opponents ample time to regain the lead & take home the win, unless your defense steps up huge.

That is why the Vikings are 1-4.

Marrdro
10-10-2011, 08:24 AM
Looking at the emotions of the team, and the benching of Berrian and Cedric, and other things surrounding this game including AP taking the lead emotionally with the O instead of McNabb....

Did we turn a corner as a team today?

Or is this a result of playing a powder puff team like we did today?
That's almost like saying the defense had a great game cause Whinny wasn't holding them back........

We won because the DL did their job and got pressure on the QB.

Not much really changed from what I could see other than maybe one could say that Musgrove didn't call a lame game.

Dnabb still missed wide open receivers deep (just like Berrian and I have been saying), the OL played a damn fine game, just like they have been all year etc etc etc.

Nothing to see here that supports your contention.

Marrdro
10-10-2011, 08:30 AM
A little of both. McNabb won't get us there, and that's been realized. Berrian is a drain...and that's been realized. Peterson hates to lose...and he's put everyone on notice about that.

But we won today on Defense, not really on Offense. Sure, Peterson punched in 3 of the 4, but we started in great position...and did squat the rest of the game.

So I think it's far too early to say we've turned a corner...we have Chicago, Green Bay and Carolina coming up. Let's see how we respond to them...

Caine
BB isn't a drain on anyone but the fans who want to blame the losses on him and they yutz coaching staff who want to stick with Dnabb.

Each and every week Dnabb has missed wide open receivers deep and when I say deep I am saying that he didn't even throw it to them but rather elected to throw into double or triple coverage.

He did it again twice yesterday that I could see (Percy and Shanc) and I'm sure I will see another if I get to watch the re-air.

Other than a miss FG by Shortwell and Dnabb one hopping passes to moving receivers (I told you guys to watch how many he hit standing still vs moving) the rest of the team played a pretty good game and we won, as you said, cause the Defense put them in situations that could almost not be screwed up.

On a side note, that is what our defense should look like each and every week. Lets hope our DL has finally got their heads out of their asses and play like that the rest of the year.

Marrdro
10-10-2011, 08:37 AM
Cedric was benched first series as disciplinary action.
Good thing it was for only one series as he had one hell of a game, as did the whole secondary. Amazing how good they really look when the DL is actually forcing QB's to make dumb mistakes.

Marrdro
10-10-2011, 08:42 AM
That's the way I saw it, but would include the 22 yard punt return to the Cardinals 18 by Sherels, which set up the first Vikings TD.

Contrary to some peoples belief, the fact that AD got more touches today in the 2nd half wasn't a factor in the win. We were up 28-0 after his first 9 runs.

AD was 9/59 (6.5ypc) after his 3rd TD run. at the half he was 13/86 (6.6ypc)

In the second half he was 16/36 (2.2ypc) which is much worse than his already 3.0YPC season avg in the second half, proving once again that giving AD the rock in the 2nd half isn't ineffective in sustaining drives.

Giving it to him more in the 2nd half is just giving us more of the same, if not worse, ineffectiveness.
Wow, good way to use stats but completely miss the mark.

You do realize that in the second half the defense knew that AD was going to be the focus (finally) so they could gamble a bit more when it comes to stopping him, so of course his numbers were going to go down.

Did he break long runs? No, but did we move the chains and keep the clock moving, thus limiting the number of tries they would have to come yet....YES....

And that is what is important and yes, even effective.

On a side note, it would be nice to see the QB also do alot better than he did. That would really go along ways into getting towards that "Effectiveness" that I think your looking for. Don't think that is gonna happen especially when you see Dnabb one hop it to a receiver that is 10 yards away from him and wide open (throw to Percy in the flats).

Marrdro
10-10-2011, 08:45 AM
You're right about the punt return...I left that off.

But I disagree about Peterson. Giving him the ball more kept the clock moving....something a McNabb incompletion wouldn't do. Therefore, even though from a scoring/yardage point of view Petersons touches in the 2nd half weren't as effective, they gave Arizona less time to get their act together and come back and beat us.

Caine
Bingo.......Excellent post.

Marrdro
10-10-2011, 08:51 AM
Cook has been doing well

As for Berrian and Aromashodu aren't they both x receivers and Jenkins and Camarillo are more the z with Harvin if Harvin isn't in the y and we don't use multiple TE's and a FB.....where's Marty


But Berrian did seem to be in his best spot today for the team on the inactive
Someone has been listening......

What people missed in the win today was the whole issue related to the Cards defense. They were ripe for the picking when it came to deep throws off of the play action. We couldn't exploit that today because we couldn't because we didn't have WR's that could go deep on both sides of the field without Berrian.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge Berrian fan, but our issue isn't the receivers, it the QB. Both Percy and Shanc were wide open deep and Dnabb didn't even see them or elected not to throw to them, just as Berrian pointed out in his articles/tweets.

Go back, look at each post game thread, I pointed out missed receivers deep each and every week (except last week, I was working in the closet and couldn't post).

Regardless of what our good friend Singer says, our issues have always been no pressure on the QB and poor play by the QB from a player perspective and some terrible play calling by our O-coord.

2 of 3 of those weren't an issue yesterday and could even be resolved, but one still was and probably can't be resolved unless they make a change.

Purple Floyd
10-10-2011, 08:54 AM
Good thing it was for only one series as he had one hell of a game, as did the whole secondary. Amazing how good they really look when the DL is actually forcing QB's to make dumb mistakes.

Anyone can look good when someone else does all of the hard work for you. Still too many dropped INT's that could have turned this into a blowout and still too many plays given up in the second half that would have made the game too close for comfort if the Dline hadn't been so dominant in the first quarter.

singersp
10-10-2011, 08:57 AM
Wow, good way to use stats but completely miss the mark.

You do realize that in the second half the defense knew that AD was going to be the focus (finally) so they could gamble a bit more when it comes to stopping him, so of course his numbers were going to go down.

Did he break long runs? No, but did we move the chains and keep the clock moving, thus limiting the number of tries they would have to come yet....YES....

And that is what is important and yes, even effective.

On a side note, it would be nice to see the QB also do alot better than he did. That would really go along ways into getting towards that "Effectiveness" that I think your looking for. Don't think that is gonna happen especially when you see Dnabb one hop it to a receiver that is 10 yards away from him and wide open (throw to Percy in the flats).

More like spot on.

You better go back & check the play by play again my friend. How many times did we extend the drives in the 2nd half? How many were 3 & out or only one more extra set of downs? How many 1st downs did AD get in the 2nd half? What was our time of possession in the 2nd half?

Yup, teams focus on AD & limit him to render him ineffective. Yet we continue to keep trying it over & over again expecting a different result. It's been that way for 5 games now. That same mentality let 3 teams come from behind & beat us.

If not for the 4 short drives, would we have even scored TD's?

A better opponent would have probably crawled right back into this one.

Purple Floyd
10-10-2011, 08:57 AM
Someone has been listening......

What people missed in the win today was the whole issue related to the Cards defense. They were ripe for the picking when it came to deep throws off of the play action. We couldn't exploit that today because we couldn't because we didn't have WR's that could go deep on both sides of the field without Berrian.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge Berrian fan, but our issue isn't the receivers, it the QB. Both Percy and Shanc were wide open deep and Dnabb didn't even see them or elected not to throw to them, just as Berrian pointed out in his articles/tweets.

Go back, look at each post game thread, I pointed out missed receivers deep each and every week (except last week, I was working in the closet and couldn't post).

Regardless of what our good friend Singer says, our issues have always been no pressure on the QB and poor play by the QB from a player perspective and some terrible play calling by our O-coord.

2 of 3 of those weren't an issue yesterday and could even be resolved, but one still was and probably can't be resolved unless they make a change.

Heck, I even saw where Aaron Rodgers missed a few guys wide open and deep last night. The difference being they capitalized on enough other plays to win the game.

Marrdro
10-10-2011, 08:58 AM
Berrian and Aromashodu are both "X" receivers, which is why I said to replace Berrian with Aromashodu.
And when they needed two X type receivers they had to move either Percy or Jenkins out there which then left no one to work the intermediate stuff effectively.

Again, the Cards defensive weakness when it came to passing was to run matching 7, 8 or 9 routes on both sides of the field off of play action. Without Berrian we coudn't do that.

Course I doubt Dnabb could have hit them anyways. Cat can only throw a ball to a receiver that ins't in motion. Damn near every reception (for the 3rd week I've watched for it) was to a receiver who ran to a spot and stopped in the whole. Only a couple were to recivers that were actually in motion and those weren't thrown to well.

Marrdro
10-10-2011, 09:00 AM
More like spot on.

You better go back & check the play by play again my friend. How many times did we extend the drives in the 2nd half? How many were 3 & out or only one more extra set of downs? How many 1st downs did AD get in the 2nd half? What was our time of possession in the 2nd half?

Yup, teams focus on AD & limit him to render him ineffective. Yet we continue to keep trying it over & over again expecting a different result. It's been that way for 5 games now. That same mentality let 3 teams come from behind & beat us.

If not for the 4 short drives, would we have even scored TD's?

A better opponent would have probably crawled right back into this one.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying the issue is the QB, your saying its Berrian.

Until we get Ponder on the field we will continue to see what we saw yesterday. Lucky for us we had a nice lead and were JUST effective enough in the second half.

Marrdro
10-10-2011, 09:02 AM
Heck, I even saw where Aaron Rodgers missed a few guys wide open and deep last night. The difference being they capitalized on enough other plays to win the game.
He did miss a couple, but the ones he didn't he made throws that the receivers could catch. So far Dnabb has not thrown balls that could be caught when it comes to deep throws.

Purple Floyd
10-10-2011, 09:04 AM
He did miss a couple, but the ones he didn't he made throws that the receivers could catch. So far Dnabb has not thrown balls that could be caught when it comes to deep throws.

Did you see that Duck that McChunky threw where the camera angle showed it from the WR's perspective? Man, I knew he would be bad but he is even making me wonder........

singersp
10-10-2011, 09:06 AM
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying the issue is the QB, your saying its Berrian.

Until we get Ponder on the field we will continue to see what we saw yesterday. Lucky for us we had a nice lead and were JUST effective enough in the second half.

I know McNabb sux. But he sux less throwing to A-Rom. For whatever reason, those two connect together a lot more than McNabb to Berrian.

So if you're getting a lot more production with McNabb to A-Rom & just about zilch from McNabb to Berrian, who would you start?

McNabb is bad, but Favre in 2009 wasn't & how did Berrian do then?

Marrdro
10-10-2011, 09:07 AM
Did you see that Duck that McChunky threw where the camera angle showed it from the WR's perspective? Man, I knew he would be bad but he is even making me wonder........
Even the ball to Orosh was at his knees. I was wrong, it wasn't a timing issue. This is the same stuff we saw last year when he was with the Deadskins.

That throw to Percy out in the flats that didn't even get half way there was almost a sin. Even a rookie QB picked number 12 in the draft could have made that throw. LOL

Marrdro
10-10-2011, 09:10 AM
I know McNabb sux. But he sux less throwing to A-Rom. For whatever reason, those two connect together a lot more than McNabb to Berrian.

So if you're getting a lot more production with McNabb to A-Rom & just about zilch from McNabb to Berrian, who would you start?
ALOT MORE? Comeon Steve. A couple more, yes, alot more, not buying that.

What I am buying is he can complete passes to receivers who are standing still. A couple have been caught when players are on the move, but very few. Same stuff we saw with him and the Deadskins last year and is probably the reason the Iggles let him go.

He is toast. Time to move on and get the kid on the field.

Purple Floyd
10-10-2011, 09:12 AM
Even the ball to Orosh was at his knees. I was wrong, it wasn't a timing issue. This is the same stuff we saw last year when he was with the Deadskins.

That throw to Percy out in the flats that didn't even get half way there was almost a sin. Even a rookie QB picked number 12 in the draft could have made that throw. LOL

So you are not bashing me any more for not wanting him to come in and Mentor the rookie?

Hopefully Ponder has a mental lapse when DM mentors him on how to aerate the turf with his worm burners. And I really hope he takes no notes on how to hold a press conference. If I hear "Things to clean up" one more time lol.........

Marrdro
10-10-2011, 09:15 AM
So you are not bashing me any more for not wanting him to come in and Mentor the rookie?

Hopefully Ponder has a mental lapse when DM mentors him on how to aerate the turf with his worm burners. And I really hope he takes no notes on how to hold a press conference. If I hear "Things to clean up" one more time lol.........
Nope, I listened to my good friend Kevoncox and bought into the "It was the Deadskins receivers" discussion point.

Heck I even stuck with it the first two weeks and saying it would straighten out. Last week I gave up on him.

I am ready to eat crow. The cat just doesn't have it anymore (even though a few of his ball fakes were the best I've ever seen yesterday).

I do not think he gives us the "Best chance to win". I am ready to see Ponder in action. Let Sully make the line calls for Ponder like we see Mangold do for Sanchez and get the kid on the field.

tastywaves
10-10-2011, 11:03 AM
More like spot on.

You better go back & check the play by play again my friend. How many times did we extend the drives in the 2nd half? How many were 3 & out or only one more extra set of downs? How many 1st downs did AD get in the 2nd half? What was our time of possession in the 2nd half?

Yup, teams focus on AD & limit him to render him ineffective. Yet we continue to keep trying it over & over again expecting a different result. It's been that way for 5 games now. That same mentality let 3 teams come from behind & beat us.

If not for the 4 short drives, would we have even scored TD's?

A better opponent would have probably crawled right back into this one.

I believe the Vikings got the better end of TOP in the 2nd half, which is the best way to stop an opponent from overcoming a 25 point deficit.

Here's a key time killing 4th quarter drive:

6:42 4th Min 1st & 10 at Ari47 Adrian Peterson rush to the right for 6 yards to the Ari41. Tackled by Adrian Wilson and Dan Williams.
6:02 4th Min 2nd & 4 at Ari41 Adrian Peterson rush to the left for 2 yards to the Ari39. Tackled by A.J. Jefferson.
5:17 4th Min 3rd & 2 at Ari39 Adrian Peterson rush up the middle for 4 yards to the Ari35. Tackled by Rashad Johnson and Stewart Bradley.
4:33 4th Min 1st & 10 at Ari35 Adrian Peterson rush up the middle for 3 yards to the Ari32. Tackled by Adrian Wilson.
3:47 4th Min 2nd & 7 at Ari32 Adrian Peterson rush to the left for no gain to the Ari32. Tackled by Calais Campbell.
3:04 4th Min 3rd & 7 at Ari32 Adrian Peterson rush up the middle for 2 yards to the Ari30. Tackled by Dan Williams.
2:17 4th Min 4th & 5 at Ari30 Penalty: Delay of Game on Minnesota (Ryan Longwell) -5 yards.
2:14 4th Min 4th & 10 at Ari35 Ryan Longwell 53 yard field goal attempt is GOOD. Holder: Chris Kluwe.
2:09 4th Min -- Ryan Longwell kicks off to the Ari0. LaRod Stephens-Howling return for 23 yards to Ari18. Tackled by Eric Frampton.

Read more: Cardinals vs. Vikings - Play by Play - October 9, 2011 - NFL - Football - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/gameflash/2011/10/09/4458_playbyplay.html#ixzz1aOYr3X7w)


6 straight handoffs to AD. Predictable as hell, but still kills 4:30, gets one first down and puts us in field goal range. i would say that's AD being pretty effective in the second half.

MindCrimes67
10-10-2011, 11:39 AM
As i see things from yesterdays game. Defense won this game for us. Special teams did a good job as well. Lets face it, QB play was horrible. He can not read defenses. It almost in my opinion, looks like he plays scared. Face it if the qb can not beat single coverage and make defenses pay for putting 8 in box, he does not need to be in there. I know Ponder could do better than that. So no we did not turn any corner. As long as Frazier keeps McNabb in there, tells me he doesnt even see a corner. I say cut McNabb and Berrian, trade Gerhart, play Ponder.

Traveling_Vike
10-10-2011, 01:06 PM
On the Peterson question, I am 100% with Caine and Marty. It's not a question of yardage or points, it's about clock management. When you are ahead, you run the ball to eat up clock. That worked very well in this game.

There is also the point that, even against stacked boxes, there is always the potential that AP breaks one for a huge gain. Didn't happen this time, but it could, and opponents know that and must guard against it.

As for the deep passing game... while I mostly agree about McNabb's extreme inaccuracy on the longer passes, I have to point out one in his favor. It doesn't show up on the stat sheet because it wasn't a catch, but it did draw a big PI penalty. The long throw to Jenkins down the middle was pretty much on the money.

It's just one out of many, but it does show that he CAN do it. Not sure why he doesn't do it more often, but it was there. And please don't give me the line about blind squirrels. This isn't about FINDING anything, it's about EXECUTION. And as a famous coach once said about his team's execution, "I'm in favor of it."

Purple Floyd
10-10-2011, 01:45 PM
As for the deep passing game... while I mostly agree about McNabb's extreme inaccuracy on the longer passes, I have to point out one in his favor. It doesn't show up on the stat sheet because it wasn't a catch, but it did draw a big PI penalty. The long throw to Jenkins down the middle was pretty much on the money. It's just one out of many, but it does show that he CAN do it. Not sure why he doesn't do it more often, but it was there. And please don't give me the line about blind squirrels. This isn't about FINDING anything, "

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while......

That play is an example of how even an inept QB can move down the field when they can't hit the broad side of a barn.

slavinator
10-10-2011, 02:04 PM
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while......

That play is an example of how even an inept QB can move down the field when they can't hit the broad side of a barn.

See the TJack experiment...........

slavinator
10-10-2011, 02:35 PM
A corner was not turned in any way shape or form. The only thing that we did was be a little more balanced with the run/pass. Aside from that we still committed a lot of penalties. For whatever reason AZ tried to line up and play power football against us instead of going with a quick passing game. The Cardinals ineptitude superceeded our lack of execution, and self inflicted wounds.

Freakout
10-10-2011, 02:56 PM
That's almost like saying the defense had a great game cause Whinny wasn't holding them back........

We won because the DL did their job and got pressure on the QB.

Not much really changed from what I could see other than maybe one could say that Musgrove didn't call a lame game.

Dnabb still missed wide open receivers deep (just like Berrian and I have been saying), the OL played a damn fine game, just like they have been all year etc etc etc.

Nothing to see here that supports your contention.

Winfield not playing is a blessing and a curse. I love him in run support but he has been beaten a couple times this season on short 10 yard crossing routes. Both times he dove for the receivers feet and whiffed.

Purple Floyd
10-10-2011, 02:57 PM
I agree. Nor corner was turned. But we did make it over the speed bump on the way out of the parking lot. Now if we can avoid the red light I think we may be on the way to turning the corner against the Bears.

Traveling_Vike
10-10-2011, 03:09 PM
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while......

Now you're just being mean. :(


That play is an example of how even an inept QB can move down the field when they can't hit the broad side of a barn.

No, it's an example of how a guy whom every claims in absolutes can't get close on a long pass, actually got one on target.

Other QBs get credit for this, as do receivers. Nobody had yet mentioned it so I figured I'd throw it out there. One of two PIs, btw.

Also, I should point out that his second half numbers were much better than his first, in something of a reversal. You can point out that he finished only 10 of 21, but he started 2 of 9. That means that the rest of the way he was 8 for 12, 75% completion. Once again a step forward, albeit a small one.

It's just that everyone seems to be so dead set against McNabb, I have to feel a little bad for him. I always did have that stupid tendency to stick up for the underdog.

Maybe that's why I became a Vikings fan...

battleaxe4cheese
10-10-2011, 03:15 PM
Turned a corner. No. More like looking around it to see who's coming. Which is a slight improvement to waiting to see who's coming around the corner and then getting punched in the mouth. :punch:

C Mac D
10-10-2011, 03:21 PM
Yes we turned a corner, too bad it was down this road:

http://solarroadways.com/images/faq/earthquake%20road%20damage%203.jpg

battleaxe4cheese
10-10-2011, 03:30 PM
Yes we turned a corner, too bad it was down this road:

http://solarroadways.com/images/faq/earthquake%20road%20damage%203.jpg

lol

Funny.

Johnson14
10-10-2011, 03:33 PM
Looking at the emotions of the team, and the benching of Berrian and Cedric, and other things surrounding this game including AP taking the lead emotionally with the O instead of McNabb....

Did we turn a corner as a team today?

Or is this a result of playing a powder puff team like we did today?

No, i don't believe a corner was turned.. but i do believe this was a massive win mentally for the side.

Not vintage by any stretch by confidence will be high and that spring in the step my just be back.

Purple Floyd
10-10-2011, 03:37 PM
Now you're just being mean. :(



No, it's an example of how a guy whom every claims in absolutes can't get close on a long pass, actually got one on target.

Other QBs get credit for this, as do receivers. Nobody had yet mentioned it so I figured I'd throw it out there. One of two PIs, btw.

Also, I should point out that his second half numbers were much better than his first, in something of a reversal. You can point out that he finished only 10 of 21, but he started 2 of 9. That means that the rest of the way he was 8 for 12, 75% completion. Once again a step forward, albeit a small one.

It's just that everyone seems to be so dead set against McNabb, I have to feel a little bad for him. I always did have that stupid tendency to stick up for the underdog.

Maybe that's why I became a Vikings fan...

I was just jerking your chain. No harm intended.....

singersp
10-10-2011, 07:39 PM
On the Peterson question, I am 100% with Caine and Marty. It's not a question of yardage or points, it's about clock management. When you are ahead, you run the ball to eat up clock. That worked very well in this game.

I don't recall Caine stating that. I recall him saying AD didn't do squat after the first quarter. Nevertheless, how well did running the ball in the second half work for us in the first 4 games?

Clock managment is important, no doubt about it, but if your not getting first downs you're giving the ball right back to our opponents. Can't control the clock if you don't have the ball.

We were damn fortunate to be playing the Cardinals. We gave them 5 opportunities to score in the second half & 2 in the second quarter. A team like GB would have made damn good use of those 7 opportunities.

We are averaging 3.8 points in the second half of the ball game. I don't care how optimistic fans are, 3.8 points in the second half is going to win many ball games.

We've already lost 3 games with double digit leads at the half.

MulletMullitia
10-10-2011, 07:49 PM
Who cares about AD's quarter by quarter production? He ended up with 122 yards and 3 TDs... This is like the arguments stating that "if you took away his longest run, his average would be terrible". Totally irrelevant. If his end production is awesome, then who the hell cares how he does it?

i_bleed_purple
10-10-2011, 07:57 PM
Let Sully make the line calls for Ponder like we see Mangold do for Sanchez and get the kid on the field.

:rofl:

Sometimes I've gotta wonder....

Comparing Mangold to Sully.. that's good. Reminds me of the "We have Hank Baskett" Comment.

Keep this coming!

singersp
10-10-2011, 08:22 PM
Who cares about AD's quarter by quarter production? He ended up with 122 yards and 3 TDs... This is like the arguments stating that "if you took away his longest run, his average would be terrible". Totally irrelevant. If his end production is awesome, then who the hell cares how he does it?

Only those of us who care how are team does in the second half. Especially when they typically blow big leads & don't do shit in the second half.

seaniemck7
10-10-2011, 08:45 PM
:rofl:

Sometimes I've gotta wonder....

Comparing Mangold to Sully.. that's good. Reminds me of the "We have Hank Baskett" Comment.

Keep this coming!

I don't think the comparison is physical ability. The comparison is the ability to recognize defensive sets and pressure. Sully may lack size and strength, but he is an intelligent football player.

To nitpick that statement is losing sight of Marty's line of thinking which is let Ponder play. We brought McNabb in because he should be able win games with double digit leads. He has not been getting it done. McNabb is our new TJack/Childress take your pick. We won in spite of him, not because of him.

Webby
10-10-2011, 08:50 PM
I don't think the comparison is physical ability. The comparison is the ability to recognize defensive sets and pressure. Sully may lack size and strength, but he is an intelligent football player.

To nitpick that statement is losing sight of Marty's line of thinking which is let Ponder play. We brought McNabb in because he should be able win games with double digit leads. He has not been getting it done. McNabb is our new TJack/Childress take your pick. We won in spite of him, not because of him.

We won because Arizona is terrible. More terrible than us.

Still, 98-0 Vikes over Bears!!

i_bleed_purple
10-10-2011, 09:39 PM
I don't think the comparison is physical ability. The comparison is the ability to recognize defensive sets and pressure. Sully may lack size and strength, but he is an intelligent football player.

To nitpick that statement is losing sight of Marty's line of thinking which is let Ponder play. We brought McNabb in because he should be able win games with double digit leads. He has not been getting it done. McNabb is our new TJack/Childress take your pick. We won in spite of him, not because of him.

Again, comparing a kid who's been in the league a few years and expecting him to carry a crap QB to a seasoned vet, one of the top C's in the league, and a very smart player is quite a stretch.

There is absolutely NO evidence to support the idea that Sullivan can do that. Am I saying he's a moron? No, but he LOOKED ok with Favre making the calls, and crap elsewhere. Smart guy? Sure, but again, no reason to think he's a guy you can lean on like Mangold is.

Johnson14
10-11-2011, 08:55 AM
Again, comparing a kid who's been in the league a few years and expecting him to carry a crap QB to a seasoned vet, one of the top C's in the league, and a very smart player is quite a stretch.

There is absolutely NO evidence to support the idea that Sullivan can do that. Am I saying he's a moron? No, but he LOOKED ok with Favre making the calls, and crap elsewhere. Smart guy? Sure, but again, no reason to think he's a guy you can lean on like Mangold is.

Man, i would LOVE Mangold here!.. anyway.. yeah im with you IBP, the two scenario's are not even close to comparable.

And the smartness thing always bugs me, has anyone ever said that any footballer is stupid?.. ive never heard them if so, so stuff like "he is smart" is taking with a pinch of salt for me, heck i'd rather hear "he is dumb as spit but man the guy can play", than people keep telling me how smart someone is.

Marrdro
10-11-2011, 09:27 AM
Again, comparing a kid who's been in the league a few years and expecting him to carry a crap QB to a seasoned vet, one of the top C's in the league, and a very smart player is quite a stretch.

There is absolutely NO evidence to support the idea that Sullivan can do that. Am I saying he's a moron? No, but he LOOKED ok with Favre making the calls, and crap elsewhere. Smart guy? Sure, but again, no reason to think he's a guy you can lean on like Mangold is.
And there will never be evidence until they do it.

LIke it or not (and I'm begging to think you don't like it as you've pushed back on Ponder since we got him) Ponder and Sully will be playing together for a long time to come.

Might as well get the ball rolling unless of course your happy watching our QB one hop balls to WR's all day long.

Marrdro
10-11-2011, 09:29 AM
I don't think the comparison is physical ability. The comparison is the ability to recognize defensive sets and pressure. Sully may lack size and strength, but he is an intelligent football player.

To nitpick that statement is losing sight of Marty's line of thinking which is let Ponder play. We brought McNabb in because he should be able win games with double digit leads. He has not been getting it done. McNabb is our new TJack/Childress take your pick. We won in spite of him, not because of him.
It wasn't a comparison. Any time you mention two players our good friend bleed automatically assumes you are comparing them.

Marrdro
10-11-2011, 09:32 AM
:rofl:

Sometimes I've gotta wonder....

Comparing Mangold to Sully.. that's good. Reminds me of the "We have Hank Baskett" Comment.

Keep this coming!
How in the hell do you get a Sully vs Mangold comparison. My discussion point doesn't compare them, it just says one makes the calls for his QB and offers up Sully helping ours in that manner.

I could just as easily said let Hutch make the line calls for Ponder like Mangold does for Sanchez and the point would still be the same. Sanchez doesn't make his own line calls so a QB like Ponder could get help and not have to worry about one of the hardest aspects of the game for that position.

Marrdro
10-11-2011, 09:34 AM
Who cares about AD's quarter by quarter production? He ended up with 122 yards and 3 TDs... This is like the arguments stating that "if you took away his longest run, his average would be terrible". Totally irrelevant. If his end production is awesome, then who the hell cares how he does it?
Excellent post my friend.

Marrdro
10-11-2011, 09:37 AM
Winfield not playing is a blessing and a curse. I love him in run support but he has been beaten a couple times this season on short 10 yard crossing routes. Both times he dove for the receivers feet and whiffed.
Agree. I love watching that little dude but a helmet on a number, but I also cringe everytime he runs with a TE, RB or WR in those crossing routes, especially this year. Almost every time Griff or Cook is the one who winds up making the play/tackle.

12purplepride28
10-11-2011, 09:59 AM
Excellent post my friend.

Gotta disagree with you and mullet on this one. Yes his game looks good, but stats don't tell the whole story. If AP has a 80 yard run for a TD on the first play of the game and the rest of the game he has 29 carries for 40 yards did he have a good game? No, not imo, but he finished with a 4 average and a TD. The stats look good, but I would much rather have a game where AP can consistently get yards throughout the whole game.

No one is taking away from his performance, but is he not up for criticism? We need 2nd half production from all our players and until we get it everyone, EVERYONE, is up for criticism.

Marrdro
10-11-2011, 10:06 AM
Gotta disagree with you and mullet on this one. Yes his game looks good, but stats don't tell the whole story. If AP has a 80 yard run for a TD on the first play of the game and the rest of the game he has 29 carries for 40 yards did he have a good game? No, not imo, but he finished with a 4 average and a TD. The stats look good, but I would much rather have a game where AP can consistently get yards throughout the whole game.

No one is taking away from his performance, but is he not up for criticism? We need 2nd half production from all our players and until we get it everyone, EVERYONE, is up for criticism.
I don't think your disagreeing with us on that point. I think we will both agree with you that that is how it is supposed to happen.

Problem is that Dnabb isn't holding up his end of the bargain. I keep referring to the swing pass out to Percy. Everyone bit on AD and Percy at the line leaving Percy wide open in the flats with lots of room to run.

Dnabb makes that play and AD's production would go up, instead defenses are daring them to make those plays, all the while crashing down on AD. Doesn't matter how good the OL is or how great AD is. His numbers will go down, again, until they are made to respect even those short little dumboffs.

On a side note, I do like how Musgrove is trying to help in that area. Two weeks ago we saw several end arounds by Percy (stretching the outside) and this week we saw a new wrinkle with a double reverse. Problem is, that won't work all the time. Dnabb has to start making the simplest of throws for this offense to click.

My guess is that Ponder could do a better job dinking and dunking than Dnabb has been.

singersp
10-11-2011, 08:16 PM
Might as well get the ball rolling unless of course your happy watching our QB one hop balls to WR's all day long.

He doesn't hop the balls, he skips them.

Thus the name Skipper McNabb.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/singersp82759/SkippermcnabbVikings.jpg

NDVikingFan66
10-11-2011, 08:53 PM
Was a corner turned? Yes and no.

Yes, in the fact that that team believes it can win, and will have a bit more upbeat atmosphere around them again. Losing sucks, and it places a drain on individuals and teams.

No, in the fact that we are no better than we were in the previous losses. It's not like we came out and looked drastically better. I did see some improvements, and I have been seeing some minor improvements each game this year.

McNabb still hurts us. He needs to complete a pass. I don't even care about the deep ones right now, because our line still struggles, but for god's sake when you have time, and a open receiver, throw it to them.

So, this team picked up a win, and I am happy for that. Winning builds confidence. Maybe we can go into Chicago and steal one away from them.

singersp
10-11-2011, 09:03 PM
I don't think your disagreeing with us on that point. I think we will both agree with you that that is how it is supposed to happen.

Problem is that Dnabb isn't holding up his end of the bargain. I keep referring to the swing pass out to Percy. Everyone bit on AD and Percy at the line leaving Percy wide open in the flats with lots of room to run.

Dnabb makes that play and AD's production would go up, instead defenses are daring them to make those plays, all the while crashing down on AD. Doesn't matter how good the OL is or how great AD is. His numbers will go down, again, until they are made to respect even those short little dumboffs.

You're starting to see some of it and are actually agreeing with us rather than before when you thought it was an excellent post that it didn't matter what the fuck AD does in the last 3 quarters of a game, even if it's shit, as long as his 1st quarter stats make up for a nice looking total. That kind of thinking loses you 4 games.

By you're own admission, you stated defenses are crashing down on AD in the second half making his numbers go down regardless of how well the OL played. Again that average was a pitiful 2.2 yards average.

So why then would we even think about giving him the ball a shitload of more times in the second half, when that is the result? Doesn't make sense, but that is what fans are clamoring for.

I don't think it's just because McNabb is sucking in the second half. Pretty sure he's sucking in both halves.

If we want to see AD's numbers go up in the 2nd half, there's only 1 way to do it.

No, it's not giving it to him more.

No, it's not dinking & dunking passes into the area of the field where the box is already stacked by defenders.

It's by stretching the field wide and/or deep & actually hitting the receivers enough times until teams start respecting the pass. McNabb is incapable of doing that. We need someone who can.

Once we achieve that, I still don't condone giving it to AD a lot more. The passing & running attack needs to be balanced enough so we keep defenders spread thin.