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Webby
09-25-2011, 07:00 PM
Luck ain't happening.

McNabb ain't happening and really should be benched. This game's failure was purely on him incredibly missing pass after pass that would have changed the game for us.

I hear calls for Ponder.

Do we want to see what Webb has in the tank finally or not?

Purple Floyd
09-25-2011, 07:07 PM
That depends on which one is more ready to go. In the end if Ponder is the guy they are going with they should play Ponder, have Webb convert to a different position where his talent would be put to use, and then sign a guy like Bomar as the third QB

Caine
09-25-2011, 07:07 PM
If we MUST make a switch, play Webb. I'm afraid of playing Ponder too soon, and I really don't feel that this offense has the tools to be successful - not on the line, receivers, or coaches. As such, Webb is the more expendable QB.

Caine

Purple Floyd
09-25-2011, 07:12 PM
If we MUST make a switch, play Webb. I'm afraid of playing Ponder too soon, and I really don't feel that this offense has the tools to be successful - not on the line, receivers, or coaches. As such, Webb is the more expendable QB.

Caine

If the QB connects on only one play in each of the second half's this year we could be 3-0 and not 0-3.

I actually though McNabb might have won us maybe a game or 2 this year but I am really trending towards the idea he will cost us that many compared to Webb/Ponder.

Caine
09-25-2011, 07:19 PM
I doubt Ponder or Webb would have been the difference.

McNabb has looked like Poo in a can, but our entire Offense has looked terrible except for Peterson. And our OC has been dumb enough to limit AP's touches.

Caine

battleaxe4cheese
09-25-2011, 07:28 PM
If we MUST make a switch, play Webb. I'm afraid of playing Ponder too soon, and I really don't feel that this offense has the tools to be successful - not on the line, receivers, or coaches. As such, Webb is the more expendable QB.

Caine


+1

Freakout
09-25-2011, 08:44 PM
Ponder.

I do not get the fear of throwing Ponder to the wolves. The only way the game will slow down for him is if he plays. Plus if he royally sucks then you know to draft Luck if we are sitting at #1. If Ponder is the future he will show some progress throughout the season.

The fear of putting him behind our offensive line? Who is to say we will have a different line next year? Our management hasn't shown to have a clue. We will probably end up drafting a WR or ILB.

Purple Floyd
09-25-2011, 08:53 PM
Ponder.

I do not get the fear of throwing Ponder to the wolves. The only way the game will slow down for him is if he plays. Plus if he royally sucks then you know to draft Luck if we are sitting at #1. If Ponder is the future he will show some progress throughout the season.

The fear of putting him behind our offensive line? Who is to say we will have a different line next year? Our management hasn't shown to have a clue. We will probably end up drafting a WR or ILB.

A very wise post.

ultravikingfan
09-25-2011, 08:53 PM
Luck ain't happening.

McNabb ain't happening and really should be benched. This game's failure was purely on him incredibly missing pass after pass that would have changed the game for us.

I hear calls for Ponder.

Do we want to see what Webb has in the tank finally or not?

I disagree on the games failure.

The games failure goes to the Defense. We were up 20-0 and owning that team.

Purple Floyd
09-25-2011, 08:56 PM
I disagree on the games failure.

The games failure goes to the Defense. We were up 20-0 and owning that team.

To the secondary maybe. The Dline looked awesome.

ultravikingfan
09-25-2011, 09:23 PM
To the secondary maybe. The Dline looked awesome.

I am going with Defense in general.

Offense spotted them 20.

Mr Anderson
09-25-2011, 09:29 PM
I disagree on the games failure.

The games failure goes to the Defense. We were up 20-0 and owning that team.
It's the defense's fault that they were on the field for 21 minutes in the second half? Every team needs drives that span more than a minute or two to be successful. Defense is reactionary, the longer they're on the field the more likely they are to fail.

We lost by 3, we only scored 3 points in the second half. If the offense plays even half-way decent in the second half, we win. Punt-Punt-Punt-Turnover on Downs-Punt-Field Goal-End of Game.

This loss is not on the defense. No way.

singersp
09-25-2011, 09:31 PM
Ponder.

I do not get the fear of throwing Ponder to the wolves. The only way the game will slow down for him is if he plays. Plus if he royally sucks then you know to draft Luck if we are sitting at #1. If Ponder is the future he will show some progress throughout the season.

The fear of putting him behind our offensive line? Who is to say we will have a different line next year? Our management hasn't shown to have a clue. We will probably end up drafting a WR or ILB.

Sure it won't slow down for him unless he plays, but at what price & risk are you willing to throw him in there? If the O-line isn't doing there job, Ponder is going to be to busy running around avoiding a sack & trying to make a play, any play for it to ever slow down. No sense making the kid gun shy.

Kind of hard to learn that way, not to mention you'll probably get him injured in the process.

I'd leave McNabb in there until the O-line shows some promise that they can protect the QB before ever bringing in Ponder. If there must be a change, then go to Webb.

There'll be plenty of chances in the 2nd half of the season to bring Ponder in.

ultravikingfan
09-25-2011, 09:32 PM
It's the defense's fault that they were on the field for 21 minutes in the second half? Every team needs drives that span more than a minute or two to be successful. Defense is reactionary, the longer they're on the field the more likely they are to fail.

We lost by 3, we scored zero points in the second half. If the offense plays even half-way decent in the second half, we win. This loss is not on the defense. No way.

Whose job is it to hold the other team from scoring? We had a 20 point lead regardless how many points we scored in the second half. What more do you want? And don't give me that crap about being on the field because the Offense cannot sustain a drive. These guys make a ton of money and have the best training facilities available to them. They are expected to play the game...to keep the other team from scoring period!

singersp
09-25-2011, 09:34 PM
.
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Mr Anderson
09-25-2011, 09:35 PM
Whose job is it to hold the other team from scoring? We had a 20 point lead regardless how many points we scored in the second half. What more do you want? And don't give me that crap about being on the field because the Offense cannot sustain a drive. These guys make a ton of money and have the best training facilities available to them. They are expected to play the game...to keep the other team from scoring period!
Ok, now explain to me what the offense does.

Mr Anderson
09-25-2011, 09:37 PM
What game were you watching?
(I'm guessing your quote was pre-edit. My bad.)

PPE
09-25-2011, 10:08 PM
since webb played at WR in college as well as QB and everyone says he is a freak of nature (athelete) why not put him in berrian's spot as a WR and get berrian off the field? then use mcnabb or bench him and go with ponder and see what both of them have....

C Mac D
09-25-2011, 10:34 PM
Play Webb at QB. I'm tired of watching McNabb's career tumble while he takes out team down with him.

singersp
09-25-2011, 10:41 PM
(I'm guessing your quote was pre-edit. My bad.)

Yep. It was pre your edit. As soon as I posted it, I saw you changed the "we scored zero points in the second half" part, so I retracted my comment.

ultravikingfan
09-25-2011, 11:35 PM
Ok, now explain to me what the offense does.

Typical of you.

All I am saying is that the Offense scored 20 and we had a 20 point lead. How does the Defense dominate 1 half, and not the other?

12purplepride28
09-25-2011, 11:50 PM
Whose job is it to hold the other team from scoring? We had a 20 point lead regardless how many points we scored in the second half. What more do you want? And don't give me that crap about being on the field because the Offense cannot sustain a drive. These guys make a ton of money and have the best training facilities available to them. They are expected to play the game...to keep the other team from scoring period!

Everyone knows that defense is constantly chasing the offense around the field, and no defense can hold off an opposing offense with weapons like the Lions have, if they are on the field for so long. They need a break, and our d-line played great, obviously this is a team loss, but to pin it on the defense is ridiculous.

Mr Anderson
09-26-2011, 12:00 AM
Typical of you.

All I am saying is that the Offense scored 20 and we had a 20 point lead. How does the Defense dominate 1 half, and not the other?
I'm not trying to be condescending, but how does the offense do the same? I asked for you to explain what the offense does for the same reason: if it's the defense's job to prevent scoring, it's the offense's job to score. They failed miserably in the final two quarters of today's game. If they even put forward a crappy effort we win.

Detroit more than doubled our time of possession in the second half. If we get a drive or two that spans more than a few minutes we probably win, and that's asking a hell of a lot less than we did of the defense by forcing them on the field for practically the whole half against a talented offense.

Punt-Punt-Punt-Turnover on downs-Punt-Field Goal-End of regulation. 3 first downs in the half. Nothing short of pathetic.

singersp
09-26-2011, 06:27 AM
I am going with Defense in general.

Offense spotted them 20.

We had a double-digit lead at the half, not once, not twice, but three times in a row.

bleedpurple
09-26-2011, 01:01 PM
We had a double-digit lead at the half, not once, not twice, but three times in a row.

That's true.. but we're 1-15 on third down conversions in the second half... that's 6.7% conversion rate on third down... we have 3 first downs total in the second half... Pathetic..

Linebackers gave up the business to Pettigrew... Calvin made some amazing plays with above average coverage on him... I put the blam on the Offense and LB's... Defense was solid... they aren't the problem.. by any stretch!

AngloVike
09-26-2011, 01:59 PM
I disagree on the games failure.

The games failure goes to the Defense. We were up 20-0 and owning that team.

not so sure about that, if we'd made some third down conversions then maybe the defence wouldn't have been on the field so much. I still would like to know what the coaches do at halftime to send the team out so flat - maybe brewing up cocoa for them instead of getting them ready for the second half?

BrisbaneTerrier
09-26-2011, 07:30 PM
The hardest thing to watch is that we know McNabb isn't good enough but we know Frazier wants to keep Ponder out of the team for this year. Three games in and its going to be at least another three to five games before it changes. Half the season will have gone before we make any progression from last year and thats at the absolute earliest.

The defensive ends have been the only highlight of the first three games (discounting the given AP).

We aren't too far off being competitive, but with McNabb I don't think we can get there. Ponder, may not be good enough, but we won't get anywhere without trying.

If we wait until next season, after say a 5-11 this year, and then he bombs. Its another year before we get the chance to pick up another young QB. I don't feel that Webb is good enough, but he certainly deserves his place on the roster and to grab a opportunity once it appears. I have nothing against him, just not seen enough to get excited.

Purple Floyd
09-26-2011, 07:40 PM
The hardest thing to watch is that we know McNabb isn't good enough but we know Frazier wants to keep Ponder out of the team for this year. Three games in and its going to be at least another three to five games before it changes. Half the season will have gone before we make any progression from last year and thats at the absolute earliest.

The defensive ends have been the only highlight of the first three games (discounting the given AP).

We aren't too far off being competitive, but with McNabb I don't think we can get there. Ponder, may not be good enough, but we won't get anywhere without trying.

If we wait until next season, after say a 5-11 this year, and then he bombs. Its another year before we get the chance to pick up another young QB. I don't feel that Webb is good enough, but he certainly deserves his place on the roster and to grab a opportunity once it appears. I have nothing against him, just not seen enough to get excited.

Great post.

singersp
10-02-2011, 10:43 AM
How much longer until Christian Ponder time for the Vikings?

Each of the NFL's three rookie starters at quarterback has a higher passer rating than the 34-year-old Vikings starter who has played a key role in three second-half meltdowns.

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_19020848

Gift2
10-02-2011, 04:00 PM
"This game's failure was purely on him incredibly missing pass after pass that would have changed the game for us." LOL.
The QB is not the problem with this team. The reality is this just isn't a very good team top to bottom.

marshallvike
10-02-2011, 04:15 PM
"This game's failure was purely on him incredibly missing pass after pass that would have changed the game for us." LOL.
The QB is not the problem with this team. The reality is this just isn't a very good team top to bottom.

Some pretty good talent on the squad. not a good team.

C Mac D
10-02-2011, 04:23 PM
We're in rebuilding mode anyways and won't compete much this year. Might as well leave McNabb in there, he's the best QB we could possibly ask for (drafting Luck or Blackmon).

singersp
10-02-2011, 04:31 PM
"This game's failure was purely on him incredibly missing pass after pass that would have changed the game for us." LOL.
The QB is not the problem with this team. The reality is this just isn't a very good team top to bottom.

Make up your mind. In one thread you claim we lost because of McNabb. In another you claim it's because we fired Childress.


You are. I speaking of course to those who demanded the head of the coach that won us 2 division championships & a trip to the NFC championship. Remember when were were relevant? Maybe firing a winning coach after one bad year isn't how you win championships.

This is what you wanted, this is what your getting.

Which is it?

Purple Floyd
10-02-2011, 04:59 PM
Make up your mind. In one thread you claim we lost because of McNabb. In another you claim it's because we fired Childress.



Which is it?

Obviously it was the first. What he failed to mention was the fact that the fired coach left us with this roster and no cap room to sign the players whose contracts were up.

While this current staff is earning no points with me this season to think we would be any better off with the last one on the sidelines coaching this group is absolutely crazy.

kramer9guy
10-02-2011, 06:48 PM
Ponder at QB with McNabb as backup and convert Webb to a WR as was the original plan.

skum
10-02-2011, 06:59 PM
One reason not to start Ponder.. Its really far fetched but

If we are going to pick Andrew Luck with the number one pick, might be best to sit Ponder for the season, before trading him to another team.

His value will likely drop with running this team and could be injured and lose all of his value.

But its far fetched, i wanna see the kid in there.

Purple Floyd
10-02-2011, 07:03 PM
We will need a backup for Luck and from reading on here we will need to sit him for a few years while he learns the offense so really we would have a perfect situation where Ponder gets his development this year and plays next season while Luck develops and then when Luck is ready to go, Ponder goes to the backup role and we let him go when his rookie contract ends.

STCLOUDSAYSGOVIKES
10-02-2011, 07:15 PM
Why would the front office bring in a QB in order to let ponder ride the bench, then the very next year do a complete 180 and throw a rookie QB into the NFL and expect a different result.

I don't think they would.

skum
10-02-2011, 07:17 PM
Why would the front office bring in a QB in order to let ponder ride the bench, then the very next year do a complete 180 and throw a rookie QB into the NFL and expect a different result.

I don't think they would.

You learn from your mistakes, thats why

Braddock
10-02-2011, 08:52 PM
One reason not to start Ponder.. Its really far fetched but

If we are going to pick Andrew Luck with the number one pick, might be best to sit Ponder for the season, before trading him to another team.

His value will likely drop with running this team and could be injured and lose all of his value.

But its far fetched, i wanna see the kid in there.

Luck is not the answer, goddammit. He's Ryan Leaf reincarnate. Maybe not, but he is no more guaranteed to pan out than Ponder. No matter, Jesus Christ himself could not be successful without a better offensive line. Use this draft on O-line, Secondary, WR, and a deeper LB corp. in that order.

Stop with the luck fascination. It's really fucking annoying.

Purple Floyd
10-02-2011, 09:00 PM
In the end if we get Luck in the draft this will all be worth it.

singersp
10-02-2011, 09:14 PM
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/singersp82759/mcnabbVikings.jpg

Gift2
10-02-2011, 09:52 PM
Make up your mind. In one thread you claim we lost because of McNabb. In another you claim it's because we fired Childress.



Which is it?
EDIT - I never said we lost because of McNabb.

We are losing due to a very questionable coaching staff & mediocre talent.

Purple Floyd
10-02-2011, 10:07 PM
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b21/singersp82759/mcnabbVikings.jpg

Or this:

Freakout
10-02-2011, 10:25 PM
Luck is not the answer, goddammit. He's Ryan Leaf reincarnate. Maybe not, but he is no more guaranteed to pan out than Ponder. No matter, Jesus Christ himself could not be successful without a better offensive line. Use this draft on O-line, Secondary, WR, and a deeper LB corp. in that order.

Stop with the luck fascination. It's really fucking annoying.

You definitely could be right.

At the end of the day guys like Kalil, Reiff, and Martin are not on the level of a Jake Long. You could get a guy like Mike Adams in the 2nd round that has just as high potential as Kalil and Martin but drops due to inexperience and some questionable choices.

The draft is looking to be loaded with good linemen all the way into the 3rd round. Ben Jones center out of Georgia is an easy upgrade over Sullivan. There are several tackles that are projected to be moved from left to right tackle or guard at the next level.

At wide receiver I really like Alshon Jeffery, even more than Blackmon, but his speed is a concern. Is he Mike Williams or Sidney Rice in terms of speed. Hell Michael Floyd should be right up there with those two but a DUI hanging over your head hurts his draft stock.

Trading back and loading up on draft picks may end up being the smart move. For every Payton Manning there is a Alex Smith.

ThorSPL
10-02-2011, 10:52 PM
Luck is not the answer, goddammit. He's Ryan Leaf reincarnate. Maybe not, but he is no more guaranteed to pan out than Ponder. No matter, Jesus Christ himself could not be successful without a better offensive line. Use this draft on O-line, Secondary, WR, and a deeper LB corp. in that order.

Stop with the luck fascination. It's really fucking annoying.

That's freaking hilarious! Quoted for awesomeness.

Traveling_Vike
10-03-2011, 01:05 AM
Luck is not the answer, goddammit. He's Ryan Leaf reincarnate. Maybe not, but he is no more guaranteed to pan out than Ponder.

Regardless of Luck's chances, if you want him now, you've already given up on both Ponder and Webb, making them both guaranteed wasted picks. You just don't draft a QB high three years in a row unless you are 100% convinced the first two won't cut it.

Plus we need a lot more help than that. See below.


No matter, Jesus Christ himself could not be successful without a better offensive line.

Is he the next over-the-hill QB to recycle here? I'm not sure I like that idea. I mean, he's a nice Jewish boy who worked as a carpenter, just like me, but he has definitely lost a few steps over the years. What would Jesus do? Forgive the O-line for not holding up their end. :rolleyes:


Use this draft on O-line, Secondary, WR, and a deeper LB corp. in that order.

I'm not sure about that exact order, depends on who is there at each point we are up to pick. But I agree with those areas of need. A big athletic DT would not go amiss, either. KW won't be with us much longer.

If we do end up with the very long shot number one overall pick, then we can command a LOT in trade for it, maybe even more than usual since everyone is so convinced that Luck is the guaranteed next superstar QB. We could get enough to fill all of our holes in just one draft, if we choose well.


Stop with the luck fascination. It's really fucking annoying.

Annoying, yes, but even worse IMO is the idea of WANTING us to lose just to get him. Not even just the high pick, but specifically him. Short-sighted and fatalistic at best, potentially disastrous at worst.

AngloVike
10-03-2011, 07:17 AM
If we do end up with the very long shot number one overall pick, then we can command a LOT in trade for it, maybe even more than usual since everyone is so convinced that Luck is the guaranteed next superstar QB. We could get enough to fill all of our holes in just one draft, if we choose well.


Given the way Romo is melting down then maybe we could get Dallas to go for a multiple pick trade and screw them over ala Herschell Walker ..

Purple Floyd
10-03-2011, 07:25 AM
Yeah, we could trade half the defense for Romo.

:rofl::hump:

singersp
10-03-2011, 07:35 AM
Regardless of Luck's chances, if you want him now, you've already given up on both Ponder and Webb, making them both guaranteed wasted picks. You just don't draft a QB high three years in a row unless you are 100% convinced the first two won't cut it.

I disagree with that sentiment. You try & improve positions with the draft & if that means drafting a QB that's projected to be head & shoulders above what you already have, you pull the trigger. Even if your QB is good, but not great. If we find ourselves in that position, I think you take him.

We had a 1,200 yard rusher in Taylor, but still elected to draft AD. Why? Because of his value & possible improvement over Taylor.+

Webb was drafted in the 6th round. As much as I like him, I still would pull the trigger & take a chance on Luck over Webb.

As far as Ponder is concerned, you let the two compete to see who is best. By years end we should have seen him play enough that we at least get more of a glimpse of what he can do. Either one would be quite valuable in a trade for players or picks.

Yes we have several holes to fill, but a lot of those positions can still be filled thru FA or later in the draft. We already have AD, Greenway, JA, K-Rud & Robison locked up.

Freya
10-04-2011, 04:32 AM
I am going with Defense in general.

Offense spotted them 20.

ANY defense, no matter how good, will wear down if they are almost constantly on the field. The offense and defense have played equally well in the first three games, or the other team would have had more points on the board at half. Both sides played equally bad in the second halves, but in my mind the defense has the added pressure of being almost constantly on the field, while the offense can't seem to get past the first 3 downs. They spend most of the second half standing around on the sidelines.

Mr Anderson
10-04-2011, 11:31 AM
Jesus Christ himself could not be successful without a better offensive line.
Jesus christ curveball.flv - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhWsNtZXdpY&feature=player_detailpage#t=47s)

tastywaves
10-04-2011, 11:49 AM
ANY defense, no matter how good, will wear down if they are almost constantly on the field. The offense and defense have played equally well in the first three games, or the other team would have had more points on the board at half. Both sides played equally bad in the second halves, but in my mind the defense has the added pressure of being almost constantly on the field, while the offense can't seem to get past the first 3 downs. They spend most of the second half standing around on the sidelines.

Very true, our offense doesn't help our defense much at all in the second half. But it also seems that the defense can't get themselves off the field in the second half. I don't think it is so much that they are wearing down as it is our ability to raise the level of play to match our opponents increased pressure. The easiest solution is for the offense to get some sustained drives as you mention, but the defense could do a better job of giving them more chances as well.

Right now, it's pretty obvious our offense is pretty anemic. In order to win games with this team, the defense is going to have to do more to help them out. I don't see our offense getting any more dynamic anytime soon.

NDVikingFan66
10-04-2011, 12:40 PM
Ponder or Webb is the topic, and we are breaking blame down to offense vs defense.

Watch the games, there is plenty of blame to go around. I might cut a break to ST (though i am sure Marrdro will have something to say about that ;) )

Offensive penalties, defensive penalties, blown coverages, poor tackling, 1st and 25 and we give up 29, poor passing, no protection, 3rd down conversions, sustaining drives, questionable coaching decisions.....

We are 0-4. Hate to break it to everyone, but we don't have 1 problem.

So, to get somewhat back on topic, I say bring on Ponder, and get Webb some time at WR. What have we got to lose at this point?