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Marrdro
08-04-2011, 02:47 PM
Musgrave Says Team Will Tailor Offense To Fit Players
(http://blog.vikings.com/2011/08/03/musgrave-says-team-will-tailor-offense-to-fit-players/)
LOL, now I know why he's failed every place hes been an O-coord.

He uses the old "Hey, just get me some players and I'll see if they work" approach instead of the "Draft me players that fit the scheme" approach that most of the known football world uses.

WOW.

i_bleed_purple
08-04-2011, 02:53 PM
WOW.

yeah, big wow here.

Do you really think an Offensive coordinator can completely overhaul the offense in a single offseason where they are 5 mil over the cap?

He probably has a vision of what he wants to eventually have our O look like, but for now, he needs to work with what he's got. That's like saying we're going to run a deep passing attack if all we had is Jenkins, Aromashodu, Camarillo, Shank and a weak armed Ponder. No, you modify the scheme until you get the players you think you need to do what you want.

Seriously, you've been quite quick on the trigger the past little while. Take a step back and think about it for a second.

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 02:55 PM
WOW.

yeah, big wow here.

Do you really think an Offensive coordinator can completely overhaul the offense in a single offseason where they are 5 mil over the cap?

He probably has a vision of what he wants to eventually have our O look like, but for now, he needs to work with what he's got. That's like saying we're going to run a deep passing attack if all we had is Jenkins, Aromashodu, Camarillo, Shank and a weak armed Ponder. No, you modify the scheme until you get the players you think you need to do what you want.

Seriously, you've been quite quick on the trigger the past little while. Take a step back and think about it for a second.
Trust me, I've thought long and hard about it.

In short, I can see your point if we are talking about left over players, but they are still bringing in players that he doesn't know how to use.

How do you explain those?

AngloVike
08-04-2011, 02:58 PM
Musgrave Says Team Will Tailor Offense To Fit Players
(http://blog.vikings.com/2011/08/03/musgrave-says-team-will-tailor-offense-to-fit-players/)
LOL, now I know why he's failed every place hes been an O-coord.

He uses the old "Hey, just get me some players and I'll see if they work" approach instead of the "Draft me players that fit the scheme" approach that most of the known football world uses.

WOW.
lets see other than potentially changing 50% of the roster then it is a case of tailoring the offense to to fit players. The majority of the players aren't elite in their area so to me it makes sense to make the use of their strengths, especially for a first year OC in Minny.
Perhaps you'd rather go for the tried and trusted Childress method of 'lets draft a player that I think will fit the scheme and stick with him doggedly when its clear it isn't working.. after all the scheme can't be wrong' :laugh:

i_bleed_purple
08-04-2011, 03:01 PM
WOW.

yeah, big wow here.

Do you really think an Offensive coordinator can completely overhaul the offense in a single offseason where they are 5 mil over the cap?

He probably has a vision of what he wants to eventually have our O look like, but for now, he needs to work with what he's got. That's like saying we're going to run a deep passing attack if all we had is Jenkins, Aromashodu, Camarillo, Shank and a weak armed Ponder. No, you modify the scheme until you get the players you think you need to do what you want.

Seriously, you've been quite quick on the trigger the past little while. Take a step back and think about it for a second.
Trust me, I've thought long and hard about it.

In short, I can see your point if we are talking about left over players, but they are still bringing in players that he doesn't know how to use.

How do you explain those?

Explain them?

Musgrave came from Atlanta. Jenkins came from Atlanta. There's evidently some reason Jenkins is here, I suspect Musgrave said "Hey, I know this guy, he'll be helpful as he knows most of the scheme, can catch on quickly and can help out in the huddle at practice for the young guys still learning it"

Who else did we get? Brought in Rudolph. Big pass-catching TE who can block too.. Seems the Falcons brought in a guy with exactly that same skillset (although, an all-time great, but still). Brought in Cook - knows the guys, knows the coaches, comes cheap. Aromashodu - again, what's to say he doesn't fit in Musgrave's end-vision of this offense?

He's simply saying he's going to tailor it to our strengths. That seems like a smart way to go, as the Childress method simply did not work.

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 03:02 PM
Musgrave Says Team Will Tailor Offense To Fit Players
(http://blog.vikings.com/2011/08/03/musgrave-says-team-will-tailor-offense-to-fit-players/)
LOL, now I know why he's failed every place hes been an O-coord.

He uses the old "Hey, just get me some players and I'll see if they work" approach instead of the "Draft me players that fit the scheme" approach that most of the known football world uses.

WOW.
lets see other than potentially changing 50% of the roster then it is a case of tailoring the offense to to fit players. The majority of the players aren't elite in their area so to me it makes sense to make the use of their strengths, especially for a first year OC in Minny.
Perhaps you'd rather go for the tried and trusted Childress method of 'lets draft a player that I think will fit the scheme and stick with him doggedly when its clear it isn't working.. after all the scheme can't be wrong' :laugh:
Examples please.....

TJ? Guess what, he's in the same system.

Tell the truth, the only player that I can think of that the Chiller stuck with that didn't fit the system were Sharp and Birk and my guess is he stuck with them because either they didn't have a replacement or Bryzcheapski said it would cost to much to let them go (or a bit of both).

Nope, we aren't talking about the Chiller here. Were talking about the cat who says we are going to do one thing, then says, nope we are going to do another, then comes out and even says nope to that.

In the end I hope I'm wrong on this guy but right now he's really not giving me much to grab ahold of.

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 03:06 PM
WOW.

yeah, big wow here.

Do you really think an Offensive coordinator can completely overhaul the offense in a single offseason where they are 5 mil over the cap?

He probably has a vision of what he wants to eventually have our O look like, but for now, he needs to work with what he's got. That's like saying we're going to run a deep passing attack if all we had is Jenkins, Aromashodu, Camarillo, Shank and a weak armed Ponder. No, you modify the scheme until you get the players you think you need to do what you want.

Seriously, you've been quite quick on the trigger the past little while. Take a step back and think about it for a second.
Trust me, I've thought long and hard about it.

In short, I can see your point if we are talking about left over players, but they are still bringing in players that he doesn't know how to use.

How do you explain those?

Explain them?

Musgrave came from Atlanta. Jenkins came from Atlanta. There's evidently some reason Jenkins is here, I suspect Musgrave said "Hey, I know this guy, he'll be helpful as he knows most of the scheme, can catch on quickly and can help out in the huddle at practice for the young guys still learning it"

Who else did we get? Brought in Rudolph. Big pass-catching TE who can block too.. Seems the Falcons brought in a guy with exactly that same skillset (although, an all-time great, but still). Brought in Cook - knows the guys, knows the coaches, comes cheap. Aromashodu - again, what's to say he doesn't fit in Musgrave's end-vision of this offense?

He's simply saying he's going to tailor it to our strengths. That seems like a smart way to go, as the Childress method simply did not work.
Yea, lets not hope that we don't have guys brought in like Chad, PH, AD, Rice, etc.

Instead we get a couple of WR's who couldn't make it on the Bores WR corps for cripes sake.

As to the rookies, I bet Spielman and Studwell had a bit more to do with that than Musgrove at this point. Hell the cat can't even figure out what blocking scheme he wants to run.

His answer, we will run something that fits the players. :sick:

mountainviking
08-04-2011, 03:11 PM
"Ahhh, you must have balance Grasshopper..." ;)

Its the extremes that don't work. You can't pound a square peg into a round hole, and you can't tailor fit an offense around turds or you'll just have a toilet bowl.

Guys with the talent level of Harvin and Peterson fit any scheme as long as you can get the dam ball in their hands and let them do their thing. Joe Webb has some skills, why not find a way to get him on the field too? Obviously, its way too early to tell, but I'm liking what I've heard about the new offense so far.

I'm just happy we'll finally be seeing some new things on offense instead of the same old eyes-closed-head-down thumping into a wall we've seen 4 of the past 5!! :pinch:

i_bleed_purple
08-04-2011, 03:11 PM
WOW.

yeah, big wow here.

Do you really think an Offensive coordinator can completely overhaul the offense in a single offseason where they are 5 mil over the cap?

He probably has a vision of what he wants to eventually have our O look like, but for now, he needs to work with what he's got. That's like saying we're going to run a deep passing attack if all we had is Jenkins, Aromashodu, Camarillo, Shank and a weak armed Ponder. No, you modify the scheme until you get the players you think you need to do what you want.

Seriously, you've been quite quick on the trigger the past little while. Take a step back and think about it for a second.
Trust me, I've thought long and hard about it.

In short, I can see your point if we are talking about left over players, but they are still bringing in players that he doesn't know how to use.

How do you explain those?

Explain them?

Musgrave came from Atlanta. Jenkins came from Atlanta. There's evidently some reason Jenkins is here, I suspect Musgrave said "Hey, I know this guy, he'll be helpful as he knows most of the scheme, can catch on quickly and can help out in the huddle at practice for the young guys still learning it"

Who else did we get? Brought in Rudolph. Big pass-catching TE who can block too.. Seems the Falcons brought in a guy with exactly that same skillset (although, an all-time great, but still). Brought in Cook - knows the guys, knows the coaches, comes cheap. Aromashodu - again, what's to say he doesn't fit in Musgrave's end-vision of this offense?

He's simply saying he's going to tailor it to our strengths. That seems like a smart way to go, as the Childress method simply did not work.
Yea, lets not hope that we don't have guys brought in like Chad, PH, AD, Rice, etc.
Sorry, must have missed something, does Musgrave run the defense?

Plus, Childress brought in (Wait, I thought it was the VP of PP's job to do the drafting...) PH, AD and Rice. Rice is gone and never really did much until a certain HOF QB was throwing to him. PH is a good addition, but he's the type of player that can be used in quite alot of schemes. same with AD.

But no, the Childress method is having your O set, then forcing it on a set of player until they get it, rather than adjusting and adapting to try and make it work NOW.


Instead we get a couple of WR's who couldn't make it on the Bores WR corps for cripes sake.
So is Rice a WR who couldn't make it on the Vikings WR corps?


As to the rookies, I bet Spielman and Studwell had a bit more to do with that than Musgrove at this point. Hell the cat can't even figure out what blocking scheme he wants to run. Or, he hasn't told YOU what he's going to run.

I don't know about you, but personally I'm not a fan of our OC announcing to the world what he plans on doing. We'll find out in due time. until then, sit tight and talk about Favre with me.

BloodyHorns82
08-04-2011, 03:13 PM
Musgrave Says Team Will Tailor Offense To Fit Players
(http://blog.vikings.com/2011/08/03/musgrave-says-team-will-tailor-offense-to-fit-players/)
LOL, now I know why he's failed every place hes been an O-coord.

He uses the old "Hey, just get me some players and I'll see if they work" approach instead of the "Draft me players that fit the scheme" approach that most of the known football world uses.

WOW.

As a first year offensive coordinator, what else would you expect? He hasn't had the benefit of three seasons to bring in "his" guys, not to mention the salary cap issue.

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 03:21 PM
"Ahhh, you must have balance Grasshopper..." ;)

Its the extremes that don't work. You can't pound a square peg into a round hole, and you can't tailor fit an offense around turds or you'll just have a toilet bowl.

Guys with the talent level of Harvin and Peterson fit any scheme as long as you can get the dam ball in their hands and let them do their thing. Joe Webb has some skills, why not find a way to get him on the field too? Obviously, its way too early to tell, but I'm liking what I've heard about the new offense so far.

I'm just happy we'll finally be seeing some new things on offense instead of the same old eyes-closed-head-down thumping into a wall we've seen 4 of the past 5!! :pinch:
As always, a man of reason my friend.

Look, it isn't like I don't have hope. I actually am pretty excited to see that he isn't coming in and making complete/sweeping changes.

I guess I will be a bit happier once I see it on the field. Until then, keep on keeping me under control.....;)

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 03:22 PM
WOW.

yeah, big wow here.

Do you really think an Offensive coordinator can completely overhaul the offense in a single offseason where they are 5 mil over the cap?

He probably has a vision of what he wants to eventually have our O look like, but for now, he needs to work with what he's got. That's like saying we're going to run a deep passing attack if all we had is Jenkins, Aromashodu, Camarillo, Shank and a weak armed Ponder. No, you modify the scheme until you get the players you think you need to do what you want.

Seriously, you've been quite quick on the trigger the past little while. Take a step back and think about it for a second.
Trust me, I've thought long and hard about it.

In short, I can see your point if we are talking about left over players, but they are still bringing in players that he doesn't know how to use.

How do you explain those?

Explain them?

Musgrave came from Atlanta. Jenkins came from Atlanta. There's evidently some reason Jenkins is here, I suspect Musgrave said "Hey, I know this guy, he'll be helpful as he knows most of the scheme, can catch on quickly and can help out in the huddle at practice for the young guys still learning it"

Who else did we get? Brought in Rudolph. Big pass-catching TE who can block too.. Seems the Falcons brought in a guy with exactly that same skillset (although, an all-time great, but still). Brought in Cook - knows the guys, knows the coaches, comes cheap. Aromashodu - again, what's to say he doesn't fit in Musgrave's end-vision of this offense?

He's simply saying he's going to tailor it to our strengths. That seems like a smart way to go, as the Childress method simply did not work.
Yea, lets not hope that we don't have guys brought in like Chad, PH, AD, Rice, etc.
Sorry, must have missed something, does Musgrave run the defense?

Plus, Childress brought in (Wait, I thought it was the VP of PP's job to do the drafting...) PH, AD and Rice. Rice is gone and never really did much until a certain HOF QB was throwing to him. PH is a good addition, but he's the type of player that can be used in quite alot of schemes. same with AD.

But no, the Childress method is having your O set, then forcing it on a set of player until they get it, rather than adjusting and adapting to try and make it work NOW.


Instead we get a couple of WR's who couldn't make it on the Bores WR corps for cripes sake.
So is Rice a WR who couldn't make it on the Vikings WR corps?


As to the rookies, I bet Spielman and Studwell had a bit more to do with that than Musgrove at this point. Hell the cat can't even figure out what blocking scheme he wants to run. Or, he hasn't told YOU what he's going to run.

I don't know about you, but personally I'm not a fan of our OC announcing to the world what he plans on doing. We'll find out in due time. until then, sit tight and talk about Favre with me.
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 03:25 PM
Musgrave Says Team Will Tailor Offense To Fit Players
(http://blog.vikings.com/2011/08/03/musgrave-says-team-will-tailor-offense-to-fit-players/)
LOL, now I know why he's failed every place hes been an O-coord.

He uses the old "Hey, just get me some players and I'll see if they work" approach instead of the "Draft me players that fit the scheme" approach that most of the known football world uses.

WOW.

As a first year offensive coordinator, what else would you expect? He hasn't had the benefit of three seasons to bring in "his" guys, not to mention the salary cap issue.
Another voice of reason that I can understand. Problem is, atleast for me, this cat has done this before.

I guess I'm expecting him to be more than a "First Year O-coord".

Some of the clips I've seen of the offense working has been enlightening. I guess I won't ratched down on this cat until I see the O in action if he keeps spewing forth drivel like this.

Zeus
08-04-2011, 03:38 PM
Musgrave Says Team Will Tailor Offense To Fit Players
(http://blog.vikings.com/2011/08/03/musgrave-says-team-will-tailor-offense-to-fit-players/)
LOL, now I know why he's failed every place hes been an O-coord.

He's been an Offensive Coordinator at UVA (where Schaub set school records) and Jacksonville. Is that what you mean by "failed every place hes (sic) been an O-coord"?

Marty - you are the master of hyperbole.

=Z=

Zeus
08-04-2011, 03:39 PM
Musgrave Says Team Will Tailor Offense To Fit Players
(http://blog.vikings.com/2011/08/03/musgrave-says-team-will-tailor-offense-to-fit-players/)
LOL, now I know why he's failed every place hes been an O-coord.

He uses the old "Hey, just get me some players and I'll see if they work" approach instead of the "Draft me players that fit the scheme" approach that most of the known football world uses.

WOW.

As a first year offensive coordinator, what else would you expect? He hasn't had the benefit of three seasons to bring in "his" guys, not to mention the salary cap issue.
Another voice of reason that I can understand. Problem is, atleast for me, this cat has done this before.

I guess I'm expecting him to be more than a "First Year O-coord".

Some of the clips I've seen of the offense working has been enlightening. I guess I won't ratched down on this cat until I see the O in action if he keeps spewing forth drivel like this.

It's only drivel to you, dude. I think it's better than babbling about a KAO which would work if he only had the right players.

=Z=

Zeus
08-04-2011, 03:40 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

=Z=

i_bleed_purple
08-04-2011, 03:42 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

=Z=

he said we'd be doing some of the same stuff with some of the same terminology.

to marty that means we're running exactly what we did last season.

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 03:46 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

=Z=
There have been several articles out there about his scheme, how he came up with it, who his mentors were that helped him devise it etc etc etc.

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 03:47 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

=Z=

he said we'd be doing some of the same stuff with some of the same terminology.

to marty that means we're running exactly what we did last season.
You know what, I'm not suprised at all anymore that that is all you got out of it.:P

i_bleed_purple
08-04-2011, 03:48 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

=Z=

he said we'd be doing some of the same stuff with some of the same terminology.

to marty that means we're running exactly what we did last season.
You know what, I'm not suprised at all anymore that that is all you got out of it.:P

:kiss:

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 03:49 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

=Z=

he said we'd be doing some of the same stuff with some of the same terminology.

to marty that means we're running exactly what we did last season.
You know what, I'm not suprised at all anymore that that is all you got out of it.:P

:kiss:
LOL, what do you do on days when I'm not around?:lol:

Zeus
08-04-2011, 03:49 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

There have been several articles out there about his scheme, how he came up with it, who his mentors were that helped him devise it etc etc etc.

Which shows nothing about what is actually going to be run, now does it?

=Z=

i_bleed_purple
08-04-2011, 03:51 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

=Z=

he said we'd be doing some of the same stuff with some of the same terminology.

to marty that means we're running exactly what we did last season.
You know what, I'm not suprised at all anymore that that is all you got out of it.:P

:kiss:
LOL, what do you do on days when I'm not around?:lol:

only one way you're gonna find out.

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 04:21 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

There have been several articles out there about his scheme, how he came up with it, who his mentors were that helped him devise it etc etc etc.

Which shows nothing about what is actually going to be run, now does it?

=Z=
Are you kidding me?

Do I know what his first play will be? Nope, but I have a damn good idea what the scheme will be and have for several months now.

To sit here and think that can't be surmised cause I'm a yutz fan is to kindof miss the whole point of life.

Zeus
08-04-2011, 04:45 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

There have been several articles out there about his scheme, how he came up with it, who his mentors were that helped him devise it etc etc etc.

Which shows nothing about what is actually going to be run, now does it?

Are you kidding me?

Do I know what his first play will be? Nope, but I have a damn good idea what the scheme will be and have for several months now.

To sit here and think that can't be surmised cause I'm a yutz fan is to kindof miss the whole point of life.

"The whole point of life"? Understanding an NFL offense is why there is life on Earth?

Even for you, Marty, that's a bit much.

=Z=

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 04:48 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

There have been several articles out there about his scheme, how he came up with it, who his mentors were that helped him devise it etc etc etc.

Which shows nothing about what is actually going to be run, now does it?

Are you kidding me?

Do I know what his first play will be? Nope, but I have a damn good idea what the scheme will be and have for several months now.

To sit here and think that can't be surmised cause I'm a yutz fan is to kindof miss the whole point of life.

"The whole point of life"? Understanding an NFL offense is why there is life on Earth?

Even for you, Marty, that's a bit much.

=Z=
Comeon, you've been around me and Wildwoman. You know were our passions are.

On a side note, I still say I'm not very far off on what they will try to do and I put it out there shortly after he was hired not only in my "Coaches" thread but in the "What kindof offense" thread as well. ;)

Zeus
08-04-2011, 04:56 PM
Comeon, you've been around me and Wildwoman. You know were our passions are.

On a side note, I still say I'm not very far off on what they will try to do and I put it out there shortly after he was hired not only in my "Coaches" thread but in the "What kindof offense" thread as well. ;)

Knowing that he runs a "Pro-style" offense, a WCO, a KAO, a Wing-T, etc. etc. doesn't really tell you anything about what plays are going to be run.

And working with the talent that you have makes a lot of frigging sense to me. For a long time around here - MANY people bitched that Childress and Bevell were not flexible enough.

Now that a coach steps forward to say he will be flexible, you seem to be dismayed. Don't see it.

=Z=

Caine
08-04-2011, 04:56 PM
"Ahhh, you must have balance Grasshopper..." ;)

Its the extremes that don't work. You can't pound a square peg into a round hole, and you can't tailor fit an offense around turds or you'll just have a toilet bowl.

Guys with the talent level of Harvin and Peterson fit any scheme as long as you can get the dam ball in their hands and let them do their thing. Joe Webb has some skills, why not find a way to get him on the field too? Obviously, its way too early to tell, but I'm liking what I've heard about the new offense so far.

I'm just happy we'll finally be seeing some new things on offense instead of the same old eyes-closed-head-down thumping into a wall we've seen 4 of the past 5!! :pinch:
As always, a man of reason my friend.

Look, it isn't like I don't have hope. I actually am pretty excited to see that he isn't coming in and making complete/sweeping changes.

I guess I will be a bit happier once I see it on the field. Until then, keep on keeping me under control.....;)

Glad to....



...where's my baseball bat?


Caine

BloodyHorns82
08-04-2011, 05:00 PM
I liked hearing Musgrave say that he will be open to suggestions and opinions of his players. (That he won't pull a Childress and stubbornly try to pound his square peg in a round hole.)

I think that while it is important for a coach to have a certain way they want things done, it's also important to not be so stubborn in your ways (large ego) that it prevents you from putting the best product on the field.

i_bleed_purple
08-04-2011, 05:05 PM
I liked hearing Musgrave say that he will be open to suggestions and opinions of his players. (That he won't pull a Childress and stubbornly try to pound his square peg in a round hole.)

I think that while it is important for a coach to have a certain way they want things done, it's also important to not be so stubborn in your ways (large ego) that it prevents you from putting the best product on the field.

Exactly.

Like last year after Chilly got canned, Bevell did the exact same thing. Sat down with Favre and Les, and went over some stuff, came up with ideas that might work, threw out plays that didn't. They played to their strengths, and that O looked better.

I'm willing to bet most HC/Coordinators do that. Sit with the captains/leaders of the team and come up with a scheme that they feel plays to their strengths. Does that mean when the QB says "just let me throw deep every play" you do it? No, but a smart QB who's been around like McNabb will have ideas and know what he can do best. the wr's will know what they can do best, and together they can come up with some ideas that will work.

Not doing so is foolish.

BloodyHorns82
08-04-2011, 05:18 PM
I liked hearing Musgrave say that he will be open to suggestions and opinions of his players. (That he won't pull a Childress and stubbornly try to pound his square peg in a round hole.)

I think that while it is important for a coach to have a certain way they want things done, it's also important to not be so stubborn in your ways (large ego) that it prevents you from putting the best product on the field.

Exactly.

Like last year after Chilly got canned, Bevell did the exact same thing. Sat down with Favre and Les, and went over some stuff, came up with ideas that might work, threw out plays that didn't. They played to their strengths, and that O looked better.

I'm willing to bet most HC/Coordinators do that. Sit with the captains/leaders of the team and come up with a scheme that they feel plays to their strengths. Does that mean when the QB says "just let me throw deep every play" you do it? No, but a smart QB who's been around like McNabb will have ideas and know what he can do best. the wr's will know what they can do best, and together they can come up with some ideas that will work.

Not doing so is foolish.

Yep - that veteran QB might have a different perspective on things standing under center, and might see some things that that the OC isn't. To put yourself on such a pedestal that you can't even bother to listen to your key players is absolutely foolish.

i_bleed_purple
08-04-2011, 05:21 PM
To put yourself on such a pedestal that you can't even bother to listen to your key players is absolutely foolish.

*coughChildressWouldn'tLet15YearVetBradJohnsonAudiablecough*

Formo
08-04-2011, 06:26 PM
To put yourself on such a pedestal that you can't even bother to listen to your key players is absolutely foolish.

*coughChildressWouldn'tLet15YearVetBradJohnsonAudiablecough*

#WINNING

BloodyHorns82
08-04-2011, 07:03 PM
To put yourself on such a pedestal that you can't even bother to listen to your key players is absolutely foolish.

*coughChildressWouldn'tLet15YearVetBradJohnsonAudiablecough*

I think it's that kind of crap that will prevent Childress from getting another HC job, and rightfully so.

AngloVike
08-04-2011, 08:37 PM
To put yourself on such a pedestal that you can't even bother to listen to your key players is absolutely foolish.

*coughChildressWouldn'tLet15YearVetBradJohnsonAudiablecough*

I think it's that kind of crap that will prevent Childress from getting another HC job, and rightfully so.
that and the perception that he didn't have a clue, especially on days that ended in a 'y'

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 09:36 PM
Comeon, you've been around me and Wildwoman. You know were our passions are.

On a side note, I still say I'm not very far off on what they will try to do and I put it out there shortly after he was hired not only in my "Coaches" thread but in the "What kindof offense" thread as well. ;)

Knowing that he runs a "Pro-style" offense, a WCO, a KAO, a Wing-T, etc. etc. doesn't really tell you anything about what plays are going to be run.

And working with the talent that you have makes a lot of frigging sense to me. For a long time around here - MANY people bitched that Childress and Bevell were not flexible enough.

Now that a coach steps forward to say he will be flexible, you seem to be dismayed. Don't see it.

=Z=
Dismayed? Nope, I am of the mind that you bring in talent to fit your scheme, not mold your scheme to a bunch of players that happen to show up on your doorstep.

Truth be told, thats the way most successfull staffs work. They actually go out and find players that fit their scheme, not find a scheme that fits their players.

What dismays me is that you didn't understand that when I said it the first 1,000 times on this site.

Marrdro
08-04-2011, 09:37 PM
"Ahhh, you must have balance Grasshopper..." ;)

Its the extremes that don't work. You can't pound a square peg into a round hole, and you can't tailor fit an offense around turds or you'll just have a toilet bowl.

Guys with the talent level of Harvin and Peterson fit any scheme as long as you can get the dam ball in their hands and let them do their thing. Joe Webb has some skills, why not find a way to get him on the field too? Obviously, its way too early to tell, but I'm liking what I've heard about the new offense so far.

I'm just happy we'll finally be seeing some new things on offense instead of the same old eyes-closed-head-down thumping into a wall we've seen 4 of the past 5!! :pinch:
As always, a man of reason my friend.

Look, it isn't like I don't have hope. I actually am pretty excited to see that he isn't coming in and making complete/sweeping changes.

I guess I will be a bit happier once I see it on the field. Until then, keep on keeping me under control.....;)

Glad to....



...where's my baseball bat?


Caine
You still crack me up my friend. ;) You figure out what brewery you are going to send me my beers from?

i_bleed_purple
08-04-2011, 10:00 PM
Comeon, you've been around me and Wildwoman. You know were our passions are.

On a side note, I still say I'm not very far off on what they will try to do and I put it out there shortly after he was hired not only in my "Coaches" thread but in the "What kindof offense" thread as well. ;)

Knowing that he runs a "Pro-style" offense, a WCO, a KAO, a Wing-T, etc. etc. doesn't really tell you anything about what plays are going to be run.

And working with the talent that you have makes a lot of frigging sense to me. For a long time around here - MANY people bitched that Childress and Bevell were not flexible enough.

Now that a coach steps forward to say he will be flexible, you seem to be dismayed. Don't see it.

=Z=
Dismayed? Nope, I am of the mind that you bring in talent to fit your scheme, not mold your scheme to a bunch of players that happen to show up on your doorstep.

Truth be told, thats the way most successfull staffs work. They actually go out and find players that fit their scheme, not find a scheme that fits their players.

What dismays me is that you didn't understand that when I said it the first 1,000 times on this site.

And most "successfull staffs" don't bring in a new scheme, clean house and stat executing properly over the course of half an offseason.

Not sure what part of that is so difficult to grasp.

gamecocksbaseball31
08-04-2011, 10:28 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

=Z=
There have been several articles out there about his scheme, how he came up with it, who his mentors were that helped him devise it etc etc etc.
Yeah so that obviously puts out all of the plays for the whole league to look at prior to the start of the season. DUH guys, don't you see that :unsure:

gamecocksbaseball31
08-04-2011, 10:30 PM
Comeon, you've been around me and Wildwoman. You know were our passions are.

On a side note, I still say I'm not very far off on what they will try to do and I put it out there shortly after he was hired not only in my "Coaches" thread but in the "What kindof offense" thread as well. ;)

Knowing that he runs a "Pro-style" offense, a WCO, a KAO, a Wing-T, etc. etc. doesn't really tell you anything about what plays are going to be run.

And working with the talent that you have makes a lot of frigging sense to me. For a long time around here - MANY people bitched that Childress and Bevell were not flexible enough.

Now that a coach steps forward to say he will be flexible, you seem to be dismayed. Don't see it.

=Z=
Dismayed? Nope, I am of the mind that you bring in talent to fit your scheme, not mold your scheme to a bunch of players that happen to show up on your doorstep.

Truth be told, thats the way most successfull staffs work. They actually go out and find players that fit their scheme, not find a scheme that fits their players.

What dismays me is that you didn't understand that when I said it the first 1,000 times on this site.
Yup. New OC, lets revamp the whole offense. Trade everybody. Trade AD, Percy, Hutch, Gerhart. Lets get guys who fit his system.

Overlord
08-04-2011, 11:09 PM
I would think most Vikings fans would eat this kind of thing up after Childress, and that appears to be the case here. Not all, of course.

I'm not sure if it means much.

I just hope that the guy is smart enough and knowledgeable enough to make smart changes to the playbook based on the talent he has and the talent the team will be facing. I sometimes got the impression that our last two coaches and their offensive staffs had a playbook, but not a complete understanding of why it worked or didn't work.



In short, I can see your point if we are talking about left over players, but they are still bringing in players that he doesn't know how to use.

How do you explain those?
Can you give some examples of players they are bringing in that Musgrave doesn't know how to use?


Hell the cat can't even figure out what blocking scheme he wants to run.

His answer, we will run something that fits the players. :sick:
Didn't the offensive line coach say they will run man, zone, draw, and gap blocking schemes? Does it seem at all likely that the coaches don't know where they want each of the offensive linemen to go for each play they will run in practice against whatever defensive fronts they will see?

Purple Floyd
08-05-2011, 03:48 AM
Musgrave Says Team Will Tailor Offense To Fit Players
(http://blog.vikings.com/2011/08/03/musgrave-says-team-will-tailor-offense-to-fit-players/)
LOL, now I know why he's failed every place hes been an O-coord.

He uses the old "Hey, just get me some players and I'll see if they work" approach instead of the "Draft me players that fit the scheme" approach that most of the known football world uses.

WOW.
lets see other than potentially changing 50% of the roster then it is a case of tailoring the offense to to fit players. The majority of the players aren't elite in their area so to me it makes sense to make the use of their strengths, especially for a first year OC in Minny.
Perhaps you'd rather go for the tried and trusted Childress method of 'lets draft a player that I think will fit the scheme and stick with him doggedly when its clear it isn't working.. after all the scheme can't be wrong' :laugh:

Amen.

Purple Floyd
08-05-2011, 04:01 AM
Dismayed? Nope, I am of the mind that you bring in talent to fit your scheme, not mold your scheme to a bunch of players that happen to show up on your doorstep.
And that is why your defense of Childress was wrong and why he is no longer the coach.


Truth be told, thats the way most successfull staffs work. They actually go out and find players that fit their scheme, not find a scheme that fits their players.

That is so off board it isn't funny. The successful ones, at least successful over the long haul know that talent is too diverse and DC's are too good to stick to a rigid scheme that requires players with a specific skill set. What they have is a core philosophy and then they tweak what they do to compliment the players they have. For instance, if we are going to feature Peterson as the star of the offense and all of a sudden he goes down, if we have a scheme that requires an AP type of back to fill in for him we will be in trouble because he is a unique and rare talent. If and when he goes down then the offense will change and we will need to feature a scheme that can function with players of a different skill set. It really isn't a hard concept to wrap your arms around.


What dismays me is that you didn't understand that when I said it the first 1,000 times on this site.

It has been understood but by the same token it has been proven to be a failure and generally rejected by most posters as flawed.;)

JNev
08-05-2011, 04:15 AM
I think which ever QB starts will vastly effect the way they tailor their offense then. Ponder will require much different planning than a vet like McNabb




Win an AD jersey on the facebook page of: http://thesportscurrent.com/The_Sports_Current/Minnesota_Vikings.html

mountainviking
08-05-2011, 03:24 PM
If Belichick has a defining trait as a coach, it is that he puts his players in position to succeed. He’ll bend any scheme or playbook to fit his roster.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/05/belichick-downplays-talk-about-4-3-defense/


Case in point with a successful coach...? ;)

Marrdro
08-05-2011, 03:56 PM
Comeon, you've been around me and Wildwoman. You know were our passions are.

On a side note, I still say I'm not very far off on what they will try to do and I put it out there shortly after he was hired not only in my "Coaches" thread but in the "What kindof offense" thread as well. ;)

Knowing that he runs a "Pro-style" offense, a WCO, a KAO, a Wing-T, etc. etc. doesn't really tell you anything about what plays are going to be run.

And working with the talent that you have makes a lot of frigging sense to me. For a long time around here - MANY people bitched that Childress and Bevell were not flexible enough.

Now that a coach steps forward to say he will be flexible, you seem to be dismayed. Don't see it.

=Z=
Dismayed? Nope, I am of the mind that you bring in talent to fit your scheme, not mold your scheme to a bunch of players that happen to show up on your doorstep.

Truth be told, thats the way most successfull staffs work. They actually go out and find players that fit their scheme, not find a scheme that fits their players.

What dismays me is that you didn't understand that when I said it the first 1,000 times on this site.

And most "successfull staffs" don't bring in a new scheme, clean house and stat executing properly over the course of half an offseason.

Not sure what part of that is so difficult to grasp.
Nothing hard, but that, as I stated earlier, only makes an excuse for half of the problem. Doesn't address the other half.

I lost you again I bet. :P

Marrdro
08-05-2011, 03:58 PM
So he comes out and gives us great indepth details about the offense he is going to run and now he is masking the truth.

Nope, not buying. Try again.

What "great indepth (sic) details" did he provide?

=Z=
There have been several articles out there about his scheme, how he came up with it, who his mentors were that helped him devise it etc etc etc.
Yeah so that obviously puts out all of the plays for the whole league to look at prior to the start of the season. DUH guys, don't you see that :unsure:
DUH.....Stay with the conversation.

No one is talking specific plays unless of course your looking at Z's posts and his don't count.

We are talking about the scheme. Will it be a WCO? If so, what variant. That kindof stuff. Only a yutz of the highest magnitude would think that a yutz with a computer could sit here and figure out what plays are going to be actually called for the game for cripes sake.

i_bleed_purple
08-05-2011, 04:00 PM
Comeon, you've been around me and Wildwoman. You know were our passions are.

On a side note, I still say I'm not very far off on what they will try to do and I put it out there shortly after he was hired not only in my "Coaches" thread but in the "What kindof offense" thread as well. ;)

Knowing that he runs a "Pro-style" offense, a WCO, a KAO, a Wing-T, etc. etc. doesn't really tell you anything about what plays are going to be run.

And working with the talent that you have makes a lot of frigging sense to me. For a long time around here - MANY people bitched that Childress and Bevell were not flexible enough.

Now that a coach steps forward to say he will be flexible, you seem to be dismayed. Don't see it.

=Z=
Dismayed? Nope, I am of the mind that you bring in talent to fit your scheme, not mold your scheme to a bunch of players that happen to show up on your doorstep.

Truth be told, thats the way most successfull staffs work. They actually go out and find players that fit their scheme, not find a scheme that fits their players.

What dismays me is that you didn't understand that when I said it the first 1,000 times on this site.

And most "successfull staffs" don't bring in a new scheme, clean house and stat executing properly over the course of half an offseason.

Not sure what part of that is so difficult to grasp.
Nothing hard, but that, as I stated earlier, only makes an excuse for half of the problem. Doesn't address the other half.

I lost you again I bet. :P

except, it's not a problem.

Musgrave said a few things hinting about what we might do. He never gave specifics, YOU came up with ideas (which is fine) of what YOU think he meant. now he's saying he's going to tailor it to match our lpayers skills, WHICH HE SHOULD. you've ignored the fact that good coaches around the league do this.

Just because he led you on a wild goose chance, and all your reading about our offense next season has become meaningless doesn't mean he's an idiot coach. Probably better that he didn't broadcast every play he plans to run next season.

Heck, here's an example you use all the time. Pats. Last season, after Randy left, Bellicheck changed the offense to take advantage of their strengths. short game to Edelman and Welker, two-tight end sets to take advantage of two good TE's they got, with Branch as the 'do it all' kind of receiver. Not as much stretching the field with Randy and hitting Wes underneath all day. He adapted and tailored his offense to suit the players.

Marrdro
08-05-2011, 04:01 PM
Comeon, you've been around me and Wildwoman. You know were our passions are.

On a side note, I still say I'm not very far off on what they will try to do and I put it out there shortly after he was hired not only in my "Coaches" thread but in the "What kindof offense" thread as well. ;)

Knowing that he runs a "Pro-style" offense, a WCO, a KAO, a Wing-T, etc. etc. doesn't really tell you anything about what plays are going to be run.

And working with the talent that you have makes a lot of frigging sense to me. For a long time around here - MANY people bitched that Childress and Bevell were not flexible enough.

Now that a coach steps forward to say he will be flexible, you seem to be dismayed. Don't see it.

=Z=
Dismayed? Nope, I am of the mind that you bring in talent to fit your scheme, not mold your scheme to a bunch of players that happen to show up on your doorstep.

Truth be told, thats the way most successfull staffs work. They actually go out and find players that fit their scheme, not find a scheme that fits their players.

What dismays me is that you didn't understand that when I said it the first 1,000 times on this site.
Yup. New OC, lets revamp the whole offense. Trade everybody. Trade AD, Percy, Hutch, Gerhart. Lets get guys who fit his system.
WTF are you talking about.

Show me once were anyone in this thread has said anything of the sort. I let the last DUH slide a bit, I think I need to ask why the hell your DUH'ing me after a dumb comment like that.

i_bleed_purple
08-05-2011, 04:02 PM
Comeon, you've been around me and Wildwoman. You know were our passions are.

On a side note, I still say I'm not very far off on what they will try to do and I put it out there shortly after he was hired not only in my "Coaches" thread but in the "What kindof offense" thread as well. ;)

Knowing that he runs a "Pro-style" offense, a WCO, a KAO, a Wing-T, etc. etc. doesn't really tell you anything about what plays are going to be run.

And working with the talent that you have makes a lot of frigging sense to me. For a long time around here - MANY people bitched that Childress and Bevell were not flexible enough.

Now that a coach steps forward to say he will be flexible, you seem to be dismayed. Don't see it.

=Z=
Dismayed? Nope, I am of the mind that you bring in talent to fit your scheme, not mold your scheme to a bunch of players that happen to show up on your doorstep.

Truth be told, thats the way most successfull staffs work. They actually go out and find players that fit their scheme, not find a scheme that fits their players.

What dismays me is that you didn't understand that when I said it the first 1,000 times on this site.
Yup. New OC, lets revamp the whole offense. Trade everybody. Trade AD, Percy, Hutch, Gerhart. Lets get guys who fit his system.
WTF are you talking about.

Show me once were anyone in this thread has said anything of the sort. I let the last DUH slide a bit, I think I need to ask why the hell your DUH'ing me after a dumb comment like that.

http://www.google.ca/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=define:+hyperbole&pbx=1&oq=define:+hyperbole&aq=f&aqi=g5&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=307l5586l0l5763l33l22l3l0l0l0l933l8503l2.5.1.0.2.2.6l18l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=9eeecae9766a8360&biw=1680&bih=935

Marrdro
08-05-2011, 04:11 PM
Dismayed? Nope, I am of the mind that you bring in talent to fit your scheme, not mold your scheme to a bunch of players that happen to show up on your doorstep.
And that is why your defense of Childress was wrong and why he is no longer the coach.


Truth be told, thats the way most successfull staffs work. They actually go out and find players that fit their scheme, not find a scheme that fits their players.

That is so off board it isn't funny. The successful ones, at least successful over the long haul know that talent is too diverse and DC's are too good to stick to a rigid scheme that requires players with a specific skill set. What they have is a core philosophy and then they tweak what they do to compliment the players they have. For instance, if we are going to feature Peterson as the star of the offense and all of a sudden he goes down, if we have a scheme that requires an AP type of back to fill in for him we will be in trouble because he is a unique and rare talent. If and when he goes down then the offense will change and we will need to feature a scheme that can function with players of a different skill set. It really isn't a hard concept to wrap your arms around.


What dismays me is that you didn't understand that when I said it the first 1,000 times on this site.

It has been understood but by the same token it has been proven to be a failure and generally rejected by most posters as flawed.;)
Flawed? I don't think so.

Your analysis is spot on, problem is, it takes time to get to that stage. Most Vikings fans will never see that cause we keep shitcanning coaching staffs before they have actually had that type of time.

Again, one more time for possible penetration, I have alot of issues with the Chiller, most of which centered on team preparation. My only reason for wanting to reatain him was because of the discussion point above.

Change for change sake is not always good.

Mostly cause it brings into play things like this. A coaching staff in transition with a team that isn't (or possibly is) geared to run the scheme the new guy wants to run will set that team back for a time commensurate with the amount of change.

When a staff can't tell you if its gonna run a certain blocking scheme, based on the players they have (or are going to bring in), what does that say?

To me it means they don't have a plan but are going to wing it based on what they eventually wind up with.

For some reason most of you believe thats a good thing. For the rest of the football world, who watch staffs build teams based on their schemes, its a joke.

Seriously, do you actually think the Iggles/Pats and Jets made all those moves this year just cause they wanted to land talent or do you think they actually targeted those players cause the not only fit the scheme but the fixed issues on the roster were they had players that didn't fit the scheme.

Marrdro
08-05-2011, 04:12 PM
Comeon, you've been around me and Wildwoman. You know were our passions are.

On a side note, I still say I'm not very far off on what they will try to do and I put it out there shortly after he was hired not only in my "Coaches" thread but in the "What kindof offense" thread as well. ;)

Knowing that he runs a "Pro-style" offense, a WCO, a KAO, a Wing-T, etc. etc. doesn't really tell you anything about what plays are going to be run.

And working with the talent that you have makes a lot of frigging sense to me. For a long time around here - MANY people bitched that Childress and Bevell were not flexible enough.

Now that a coach steps forward to say he will be flexible, you seem to be dismayed. Don't see it.

=Z=
Dismayed? Nope, I am of the mind that you bring in talent to fit your scheme, not mold your scheme to a bunch of players that happen to show up on your doorstep.

Truth be told, thats the way most successfull staffs work. They actually go out and find players that fit their scheme, not find a scheme that fits their players.

What dismays me is that you didn't understand that when I said it the first 1,000 times on this site.

And most "successfull staffs" don't bring in a new scheme, clean house and stat executing properly over the course of half an offseason.

Not sure what part of that is so difficult to grasp.
Nothing hard, but that, as I stated earlier, only makes an excuse for half of the problem. Doesn't address the other half.

I lost you again I bet. :P

except, it's not a problem.

Musgrave said a few things hinting about what we might do. He never gave specifics, YOU came up with ideas (which is fine) of what YOU think he meant. now he's saying he's going to tailor it to match our lpayers skills, WHICH HE SHOULD. you've ignored the fact that good coaches around the league do this.

Just because he led you on a wild goose chance, and all your reading about our offense next season has become meaningless doesn't mean he's an idiot coach. Probably better that he didn't broadcast every play he plans to run next season.

Heck, here's an example you use all the time. Pats. Last season, after Randy left, Bellicheck changed the offense to take advantage of their strengths. short game to Edelman and Welker, two-tight end sets to take advantage of two good TE's they got, with Branch as the 'do it all' kind of receiver. Not as much stretching the field with Randy and hitting Wes underneath all day. He adapted and tailored his offense to suit the players.
LOL, led me on a goose chase? Heres something to chew on. They are still going to do what I said they were going to do months ago, even though they didn't know it. :P

You guys were the ones who professed that they were going to run the "Atlanta" version. Not me.

i_bleed_purple
08-05-2011, 04:19 PM
Dismayed? Nope, I am of the mind that you bring in talent to fit your scheme, not mold your scheme to a bunch of players that happen to show up on your doorstep.
And that is why your defense of Childress was wrong and why he is no longer the coach.


Truth be told, thats the way most successfull staffs work. They actually go out and find players that fit their scheme, not find a scheme that fits their players.

That is so off board it isn't funny. The successful ones, at least successful over the long haul know that talent is too diverse and DC's are too good to stick to a rigid scheme that requires players with a specific skill set. What they have is a core philosophy and then they tweak what they do to compliment the players they have. For instance, if we are going to feature Peterson as the star of the offense and all of a sudden he goes down, if we have a scheme that requires an AP type of back to fill in for him we will be in trouble because he is a unique and rare talent. If and when he goes down then the offense will change and we will need to feature a scheme that can function with players of a different skill set. It really isn't a hard concept to wrap your arms around.


What dismays me is that you didn't understand that when I said it the first 1,000 times on this site.

It has been understood but by the same token it has been proven to be a failure and generally rejected by most posters as flawed.;)
Flawed? I don't think so.

Your analysis is spot on, problem is, it takes time to get to that stage. Most Vikings fans will never see that cause we keep shitcanning coaching staffs before they have actually had that type of time.
maybe if we hired a coach worth a damn we wouldn't keep doing that.

Chilly was not going to get us anywhere. It took a HOF QB who had the best season of his career throwing to a great receiver who had his best season of his career to get any type of success running that offense. There's a reason he was fired. Hopefully Fraizer can be our long term guy, but if he sucks, and if he gives Wilf a reason, you can't just keep a guy one for 10+ years just to make Marrdro happy.


Again, one more time for possible penetration, I have alot of issues with the Chiller, most of which centered on team preparation. My only reason for wanting to reatain him was because of the discussion point above.

Change for change sake is not always good.
some cases no, some cases yes. We can't say at this point if Fraizer will be an upgrade or not, I'm hopeful. However, Fraizer seems like a guy the players respect. Childress was not. I think that's rather important as a HC. Childress demanded respect, Fraizer earned respect. One of them got it, the other didn't


Mostly cause it brings into play things like this. A coaching staff in transition with a team that isn't (or possibly isn't) geared to run the scheme the new guy wants to run will set that team back for a time commensurate with the amount of change.

When a staff can't tell you if its gonna run a certain blocking scheme, based on the players they have (or are going to bring in), what does that say? says its preseason, and they don't know that the players they inherited are quite the right guys to run the scheme they eventually plan on implementing, but in the meantime, they're going to do what they can to make it work.




For some reason most of you believe thats a good thing. For the rest of the football world, who watch staffs build teams based on their schemes, its a joke.
Again, you ignore the fact that in order to do what you seem to want our FO to do, we'd have to gut the team, cut our vets, then go sign a teams worth of FA's. Does that seem practical?

Oh, and could you clarify one little thing? What exactly do you mean by "the rest of the football world"? I'm fairly sure you are among the minority who believes that coaches shouldn't adapt to waht they are given. In fact, not doing so would be pretty damn stupid if you ask me. (But what do I know, I'm just a yutz with a keyboard, why not ask some coaches and players, bet they'll tell you the exact same thing though)


Seriously, do you actually think the Iggles/Pats and Jets made all those moves this year just cause they wanted to land talent or do you think they actually targeted those players cause the not only fit the scheme but the fixed issues on the roster were they had players that didn't fit the scheme.

both.

Marrdro
08-05-2011, 04:23 PM
Can you give some examples of players they are bringing in that Musgrave doesn't know how to use?

Depends on what variation of the scheme that you think they want (or wanted to run).

OL seems to be my biggest point of contention. Example......

They said they were going to move away from the ZB'ing scheme and yet they draft a C that is best suited for a ZB'ng scheme.

Then we hear a change that they might continue to employ elements of Mantoman and the ZBing scheme. OK, that kindof makes sense when you look at the C they drafted.


Now we are hearing that they are going to not only use those two elements, but add 2 more to the scheme.

WR's. Wasn't to upset over the cat they took cause I believed that Rice was going to be retained that the new kid would be used later on (2 to 3 years from now) but then when one looks at what they did with the second pick, mixed in with that he doesn't need a FB, one has to start scratching their head a bit. Why draft that kid when he could have picked 3 or 4 others that were on the board.

I don't have that data/names in front of me right now but was sure pissed when I first saw the pick. I relented, again, based on what I thought they were going to do.

Look, I'll be the first one to say I like balance and hope that we put a team on the field that can exploit the weakness of the defense, but this staff clearly seems to be a bit confused over what they are trying to do.

Some of this can surely be attributed to smoking mirrors, but damn, some of it just doesn't make sense from a common sense standpoint (Especially when you start looking at the OL).

tastywaves
08-05-2011, 04:35 PM
Can you give some examples of players they are bringing in that Musgrave doesn't know how to use?

Depends on what variation of the scheme that you think they want (or wanted to run).

OL seems to be my biggest point of contention. Example......

They said they were going to move away from the ZB'ing scheme and yet they draft a C that is best suited for a ZB'ng scheme.

Then we hear a change that they might continue to employ elements of Mantoman and the ZBing scheme. OK, that kindof makes sense when you look at the C they drafted.


Now we are hearing that they are going to not only use those two elements, but add 2 more to the scheme.

WR's. Wasn't to upset over the cat they took cause I believed that Rice was going to be retained that the new kid would be used later on (2 to 3 years from now) but then when one looks at what they did with the second pick, mixed in with that he doesn't need a FB, one has to start scratching their head a bit. Why draft that kid when he could have picked 3 or 4 others that were on the board.

I don't have that data/names in front of me right now but was sure pissed when I first saw the pick. I relented, again, based on what I thought they were going to do.

Look, I'll be the first one to say I like balance and hope that we put a team on the field that can exploit the weakness of the defense, but this staff clearly seems to be a bit confused over what they are trying to do.

Some of this can surely be attributed to smoking mirrors, but damn, some of it just doesn't make sense from a common sense standpoint (Especially when you start looking at the OL).

Marrdro against the world once again I see. You make a lot of good points Marrdro, problem is for me, is that they are based on a lot of assumptions that none of us know to be real at this point. It makes for a lot of discussion, but not much merit on either side of it at this point.

I will say though, that I have no reason to be overly optimistic at this point. Musgrave has done nothing to make me giddy, I will give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, but I remain a bit skeptic on the guy.

I will also agree that his statements to date (although probably intentionally vague), come off as a guy who doesn't have a clear vision of what he wants to do. Again, I will reserve judgment...at least try.

And, I think the phrase is "smoke and mirrors". ;)

Overlord
08-05-2011, 05:37 PM
Can you give some examples of players they are bringing in that Musgrave doesn't know how to use?

Depends on what variation of the scheme that you think they want (or wanted to run).

OL seems to be my biggest point of contention. Example......

They said they were going to move away from the ZB'ing scheme and yet they draft a C that is best suited for a ZB'ng scheme.

Then we hear a change that they might continue to employ elements of Mantoman and the ZBing scheme. OK, that kindof makes sense when you look at the C they drafted.


Now we are hearing that they are going to not only use those two elements, but add 2 more to the scheme.

WR's. Wasn't to upset over the cat they took cause I believed that Rice was going to be retained that the new kid would be used later on (2 to 3 years from now) but then when one looks at what they did with the second pick, mixed in with that he doesn't need a FB, one has to start scratching their head a bit. Why draft that kid when he could have picked 3 or 4 others that were on the board.

I don't have that data/names in front of me right now but was sure pissed when I first saw the pick. I relented, again, based on what I thought they were going to do.

Look, I'll be the first one to say I like balance and hope that we put a team on the field that can exploit the weakness of the defense, but this staff clearly seems to be a bit confused over what they are trying to do.

Some of this can surely be attributed to smoking mirrors, but damn, some of it just doesn't make sense from a common sense standpoint (Especially when you start looking at the OL).
I don't agree with either of your examples of players that don't fit, based on what I've heard and what I know about them. And I don't understand your argument surrounding Rudolph. He doesn't make sense on a team that is supposedly going to be running a lot of two tight-end sets because the offense won't feature a fullback?

Or are you suggesting that the Vikes needed a WR there? Maybe they do or maybe they don't, but I don't see how that makes the players they've brought in miscast for the system. I would point to Jenkins, as others have, as a pretty good example of a guy brought in just because of how he fits in the system. If the 10th receiver on the training camp roster isn't the perfect example of what you want... that's probably why he's the 10th receiver.

And I disagree with your contention that they are confused about what they are doing with the blocking scheme. When the offensive line coach says that they are running multiple schemes, that doesn't mean he doesn't know what they are running. It means that they will be using more than one, depending on the situation. Also, anyone that has watched a Childress coached Vikings team on 3rd and long should be aware that the line has used the draw scheme before. Not everything is as complicated or as new as might be assumed. The key is really going to be whether they can get the guys to do it right.

gamecocksbaseball31
08-05-2011, 05:41 PM
Comeon, you've been around me and Wildwoman. You know were our passions are.

On a side note, I still say I'm not very far off on what they will try to do and I put it out there shortly after he was hired not only in my "Coaches" thread but in the "What kindof offense" thread as well. ;)

Knowing that he runs a "Pro-style" offense, a WCO, a KAO, a Wing-T, etc. etc. doesn't really tell you anything about what plays are going to be run.

And working with the talent that you have makes a lot of frigging sense to me. For a long time around here - MANY people bitched that Childress and Bevell were not flexible enough.

Now that a coach steps forward to say he will be flexible, you seem to be dismayed. Don't see it.

=Z=
Dismayed? Nope, I am of the mind that you bring in talent to fit your scheme, not mold your scheme to a bunch of players that happen to show up on your doorstep.

Truth be told, thats the way most successfull staffs work. They actually go out and find players that fit their scheme, not find a scheme that fits their players.

What dismays me is that you didn't understand that when I said it the first 1,000 times on this site.
Yup. New OC, lets revamp the whole offense. Trade everybody. Trade AD, Percy, Hutch, Gerhart. Lets get guys who fit his system.
WTF are you talking about.

Show me once were anyone in this thread has said anything of the sort. I let the last DUH slide a bit, I think I need to ask why the hell your DUH'ing me after a dumb comment like that.
You keep talking and talking AND TALKING about how the coaches should implement a system and bring in players to fit the system, not tailor it to fit our players. Do you get what I am saying? Or is a hooked on phonics price check needed?

BloodyHorns82
08-05-2011, 07:39 PM
It absolutely amazes me that we're only a few days into training camp. Not one game has been played, not even a preseason, and yet people are already complaining about the coaching staff.

Marty, you of all people - (saying that a coach should get years to develop what he wants), are already banging on Musgrave for not doing the right things. If there is anything we learned from you about coaches (and Tjack), it's that you're not allowed to complain for at least 10 years or so...you know, until they've had a fair shot. :silly:

Purple Floyd
08-06-2011, 01:26 AM
Your analysis is spot on,

I know.:woohoo:



problem is, it takes time to get to that stage. Most Vikings fans will never see that cause we keep shitcanning coaching staffs before they have actually had that type of time.

It actually takes far less time to fit a scheme to the existing talent than it does to bring in a specific scheme and try to find talent to fit it.


Again, one more time for possible penetration,

I always understand what you are saying. That has never been an issue. I just disagree with it and no number of restatements is going to change that.;)



I have alot of issues with the Chiller, most of which centered on team preparation. My only reason for wanting to reatain him was because of the discussion point above.

Yeah, while other coaches hired at the same time as him were regularly beating us and building their teams to be more successful quicker and built to stay competitive over the long haul. I can see why he was such a keeper lol.


Change for change sake is not always good.

No, it isn't. But id we are in cliche mode then I will counter with insanity is letting the same coach run his scheme over and over and expecting different results.:P


Mostly cause it brings into play things like this. A coaching staff in transition with a team that isn't (or possibly is) geared to run the scheme the new guy wants to run will set that team back for a time commensurate with the amount of change.




When a staff can't tell you if its gonna run a certain blocking scheme, based on the players they have (or are going to bring in), what does that say?

To me it means they don't have a plan but are going to wing it based on what they eventually wind up with.


I haven't had a sit down with Musgrave to hear what he has said but it seems to me he probably isn't going to post his blueprint for success on Wikipedia. :silly:

It also stands to figure if he had already decided what he was going to have a set scheme coming into training camp before any of the roster was set it might just set him up for failure. To me it seems much more intelligent to first assess your roster and then set up the scheme to that talent.

Quick question: Had we resigned Rice and cut Berrian do you think we could have run the same routes or do you think that maybe they would want to adjust the routes that are called to account for the different skill sets between the two?




For some reason most of you believe thats a good thing. For the rest of the football world, who watch staffs build teams based on their schemes, its a joke.

Seriously? Tell that to Belechik or any Bill Walsh disciple and get back to me on their reply.

Quick question:

Did Walsh tweak the scheme at all when he went from Montana to Young or did they run the exact same formations with the QB taking the exact drops and making the exact same throws?

I thought so.




Seriously, do you actually think the Iggles/Pats and Jets made all those moves this year just cause they wanted to land talent or do you think they actually targeted those players cause the not only fit the scheme but the fixed issues on the roster were they had players that didn't fit the scheme.

Yes. If you think it was to fit their scheme then I guess we have different beliefs.

Purple Floyd
08-06-2011, 01:31 AM
It absolutely amazes me that we're only a few days into training camp. Not one game has been played, not even a preseason, and yet people are already complaining about the coaching staff.

Marty, you of all people - (saying that a coach should get years to develop what he wants), are already banging on Musgrave for not doing the right things. If there is anything we learned from you about coaches (and Tjack), it's that you're not allowed to complain for at least 10 years or so...you know, until they've had a fair shot. :silly:

Remember-

These are some of the same people who were told some of us we should not complain after we actually saw what the staff was doing.

Hypocrisy indeed.

CPonderFan
08-06-2011, 02:42 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how many Vikings fans are fair weather fans! I have never seen (or in this case heard) so many whiny beo-tches! I have been a Vikings fan since I was a little kid. I may not agree with what our coaching staff does all the time, but I stand behind them and will atleast give them a chance to prove themselves. Shit atleast for a couple of seasons so they can get the right personel in here. You are the same idiots that will be talking smack to pukers about how McNabb is going to pick you apart (When things are rolling along, if they do..)

Shut your mouths, read more than spew and let the guys do their fricken jobs! Watch atleast 10 games...then blast away. damn you guys dont have a clue.

12purplepride28
08-06-2011, 03:35 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how many Vikings fans are fair weather fans! I have never seen (or in this case heard) so many whiny beo-tches! I have been a Vikings fan since I was a little kid. I may not agree with what our coaching staff does all the time, but I stand behind them and will atleast give them a chance to prove themselves. Shit atleast for a couple of seasons so they can get the right personel in here. You are the same idiots that will be talking smack to pukers about how McNabb is going to pick you apart (When things are rolling along, if they do..)

Shut your mouths, read more than spew and let the guys do their fricken jobs! Watch atleast 10 games...then blast away. damn you guys dont have a clue.

Care to provide us with something else to talk about. Take away the whining and the conjecture and the beeyatching and you can just enjoy an empty PPO.

Purple Floyd
08-06-2011, 01:56 PM
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/31126586


One difference between Minnesota and previous teams -- at least to hear McNabb tell it -- is that Vikings offensive coordinator Bill Musgrave is more amenable to input from the quarterback than former coaches (we won't name names but we'll venture a guess…).

"Some coaches say 'Hey, it's my way or no way,' " McNabb said. "You become robotic. That's when you pull away from your style of play and the way of things that got you successful. If things don't go as well as you'd like them to, you find out what the mistake was, you correct it and you go right back and get it done."


That kinds shoots a hole in the theory of some about how the coaches should create their schemes.:whistle: