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Knight of God
06-17-2011, 05:38 AM
Hello Vikings fans! Just want to say that as a guest in your house, I'm interested in your honest opinions on Ray Edwards.

The word is that he may be signed to us and as a guy who watches the games I don't really see him doing much at all, but since you are all more knowledgeable about him than I am could you shed some light on who we are getting.

I have heard that he talks a bigger game and most fans of the Vikings that I know of aren't crying a tear that he is going away.

From the standpoint of true fans who love the team, what is the general outlook on him as the starting LE out here?

Thanks in advance.

Purple Floyd
06-17-2011, 01:06 PM
Well, if he still has a tender tied to him when the CBA ends we will appreciate the pick we get from you.

He is a good bit player but to be honest after what you guys gave up for Jones there is no way I would burn another pick to get him when you could get a player with more potential with the pick you burned or for less if you went with a UFA.

I personally think he is burning his bridge here but that bridge was built with matches s it might be for the best.

If we end up re signing him it won't break my heart but this is one position that I feel we have the depth to be able to let him walk.

i_bleed_purple
06-17-2011, 01:27 PM
He's definitely a good player. Good rusher, decent vs. the run, but you are right in that he talks a bigger game than he plays.

If he gets his paycheck, he'll be happy. If not, expect nothing but hot air coming from him.

Caine
06-17-2011, 02:23 PM
I agree with the first two responses.

Ray has been a decent player while here...although maybe not as good as HE thinks he's been. He has been an important - but not irreplaceable - part of our D-line's successes. He also disappeared like the rest of them when we weren't successful.

In short he a solid player, but not a spectacular one. If you sign him to big money with the expectation that he'll turn the league on it's ear, I think you'll be disappointed. If, on the other hand, you can sign him to a moderate value contract and plan on him being a solid part of your Defense, that's what you'll get...


...until he decides he's worth more and starts talking about taking up boxing again.

Caine

12purplepride28
06-17-2011, 03:23 PM
Huge Ray Edwards Thread (http://purplepride.org/forum/2-vikings-fan-forum/1047608-is-it-just-me-or-is-edwards-a-real-jackass)

Feel free to skim over parts of this on what most people here think about Ray Edwards. I have never liked him and won't care when he leaves. Yes he's a decent player but he is not even close to how he actually views himself. He's a slightly above average DE who think's he's the best.

BloodyHorns82
06-17-2011, 03:33 PM
I'll second (4th?) everything that's been said about Ray so far.

Decent player who thinks he's great. Has a big mouth and might be a distraction if he's not perfectly happy.

Barely won his recent boxing match against a much smaller opponent.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out Ray.

ejmat
06-17-2011, 05:36 PM
I agree with everything that has been said here thus far. We have had several debates on this issue here on purplepride. Some people think he's great because of the amount of "pressures" he gets. To me that is a statistic that could have several variables.

In my opinion he is the 4th best on a line of 4 DLs. Not that he's a bad player because he's certainly not. He is solid. His problem is his mouth and narcissism to where he thinks he is much better than what he is.

If the Falcons or any other team for that matter take him and give us a decent draft pick I would be happy as a pig rolling in dung. If he stays and shuts his mouth I would be just as happy. If he stays and continues his belittling of the Viking organization I will continue to talk smack about him.

When all is said and done he will play solid DE but he wants more money than he's worth and quite honestly the tag that is on him is more than he's worth. He is all about the money.

AngloVike
06-17-2011, 08:03 PM
Welcome KoG, to add to replies posed so far. Yes he is a good DE, not outstanding but good, The problem he has is that he is looking for the kind of $$$ that you'd expect to pay for an elite DE, Edwards is not an elite DE but any stretch of the imagination ( apart from his ).
If you sign him then you will get a reasonable DE but I don't think you'll be getting value for money. In addition it may well cost you a draft pick that would be better used elsewhere.
If he stays with us for reasonable money then I'm ok with that but if we lose hime then I won't despair about the fact.
Bottom line - buyer beware and make sure you get value for money.

Caine
06-17-2011, 11:11 PM
NOTE: To be FAIR, Ray has never stated how much he wants...only that he wants to be paid more than his back up (Which is both fair and deserved). The problem lies in the fact that this is the second consecutive year he's made noise about wanting more money, and the IMPRESSION he's given is that he wants a LOT of money.

Also, he's made a lot of comments about not wanting to play here, both this year and last, for "less than he's worth", which has really set a lot of people off against him (Myself included).

Again, Ray is a solid player. He's one of the better LDE's in the game. But he's not proven himself to be an Elite player, and from how he's talked - and based upon who his agent is - many of us expect that he will price himself out of Minnesota.

Caine

PackSux!
06-17-2011, 11:26 PM
Ray sucks and now you know why we gave Robison an extension first.

And he is always a distraction in practice, I listen to Mike Morris on the powertrip every morning and he says over and over whenever a problem or fight takes place in practice Ray is always involved.

Sure he can stop the run but nothing else, would he ever get a sack if we didnt have Allen on the other side or KWill in the middle? probably not.


But I hope to god he is a RFA this season and you guys take him off our hands becasue we could use a extra first round pick.

marshallvike
06-18-2011, 12:03 AM
NOTE: To be FAIR, Ray has never stated how much he wants...only that he wants to be paid more than his back up (Which is both fair and deserved). The problem lies in the fact that this is the second consecutive year he's made noise about wanting more money, and the IMPRESSION he's given is that he wants a LOT of money.

Also, he's made a lot of comments about not wanting to play here, both this year and last, for "less than he's worth", which has really set a lot of people off against him (Myself included).

Again, Ray is a solid player. He's one of the better LDE's in the game. But he's not proven himself to be an Elite player, and from how he's talked - and based upon who his agent is - many of us expect that he will price himself out of Minnesota.

Caine

Good post Caine. I have been a Ray supporter, but it is annoying to continually hear him talk about it. He seems to think more of his ability thn even his backers do. Even if he thinks he is an elite player, keep that shit behind the scenes or you risk alienating the people who really pay your salary.

Knight of God
06-18-2011, 01:36 AM
Thanks guys. I hope things get better. My wife is always in a better mood when the Vikings are winning. I had hoped that Favre would go out winning and was ticked with what happened to Moss. Last year was a confusing year.

One thing that I said the last two years is that the left side needed some help. I watch most of the games and never really saw him do much.

The ATL board was all hyped up about getting Edwards and I said, "Whoa! I don't even want him in Purple. Why would I want him in Falcons Red???" Trust me guys, I have had to explain over and over that Edwards isn't a guy to get excited about and with Allen and the Williams Wall you better had get 8 sacks. No avail, I'm seen as just being mean about it.

Thank you guys for the honesty, its what I thought. He's okay but nothing to cheer about.

Thanks again.

gregair13
06-18-2011, 05:25 PM
Give us some secondary help and you can have him

Marrdro
06-20-2011, 04:01 PM
One thing you find on here my friend is that most of the posters on here place value on a player only on the basic of stats. In this case, sacks, when in fact a DE is graded out on several factors when it comes to worth.

I think that if Ray would have been allowed to stay at RDE for a team that had a good DL his sack totals would have been higher. Instead, because he is a LDE on a line that has is first read as "Run", second read as "contain/seal the end" and third read as "Sack the QB" his sack numbers are down.

But if you take all 3 read/reacts and then look at his numbers in pressures you will see he grades out pretty damn high as a LDE and if you look at it with the idea that he is actually a RDE beefed up to play LDE that stat is even more impressive.

As I said in a previous post, most won't agree with me on that statement so check this little article out......

Three Years of Pass Rushing Productivity: Edge Rushers
(http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/06/20/three-years-of-pass-rushing-productivity-edge-rushers/)


Pass Rushing Productivity, Edge Rushers, Top 20, 2010
1 Tamba Hali OLB KC 583 103 14.07
2 Charles Johnson DE CAR 481 81 13.25
3 Ray Edwards DE MIN 416 69 12.98



Pass Rushing Productivity, Edge Rushers, Top 20, 2008-2010
Rank Player Pos. Team Pass Rushing Snaps Total QB Disruptions PRP
1 John Abraham DE ATL 1239 194 12.49
2 Dwight Freeney DE IND 1417 214 11.98
3 James Harrison OLB PIT 1339 193 11.61
4 Lamarr Woodley OLB PIT 1346 193 11.55
5 DeMarcus Ware OLB DAL 1626 227 11.24
6 Tamba Hali OLB KC 1466 209 11.22
7 Chris Clemons DE SEA 910 129 11.21
8 Charles Johnson DE CAR 1096 149 10.72
9 Matt Roth OLB CLV 773 105 10.64
10 Robert Mathis DE IND 1368 182 10.60
11 Ray Edwards DE MIN 1468 197 10.52





One has to wonder about comments like "he only is good because of the other 3 DLmen". If that is the case, why aren't those 3 on these lists ahead of Ray?

Other rushers that seem to face doubles like JA seem to get their numbers.

Something to ponder my friend as you weight stats vs opinions.

When its all said and done, I don't think the Vikes should sign Ray to a long term contract. It isn't because of productivity or because he runs his mouth. Its because he is a RDE who has beefed up to LDE. If he remains at the LDE position I don't think he will play out the life of the contract.

Any team, however, who signs him to a big deal and lets him move back to his natural position of RDE (slims down again) will probably see the benifits of that move.

mountainviking
06-20-2011, 04:23 PM
In Ray's defense, he is still on his 4th round rookie contract which he has way out-performed...he does deserve more money. And the kid is one hell of an athlete and committed to being in ridiculous shape. I saw something a year or two ago and his fat% was inhuman, like less than 3%?

Yeah, Marrdro you got a good point there...might be exciting to see him as a primary rusher from the Right End, or possibly mixing it up and rushing from the left side sometimes too. I also wonder what he might do in a 3-4 as a primary outside rusher (OLB) who got moved around a bunch!!?! ;)

But, I don't think he needs to lose any weight, he is pretty much the same size as Allen and hasn't shown any ill-effects such as injuries or loss of speed.

I also agree that he's not doing himself any favors by bitching to the media. Looking at our draft and the resigning of Robison seems to point to Ray moving on and us spending our big contract bucks elsewhere...like on Rice and/or a vet QB if the lockout lingers on into TC or preseason. Being a media whore might drive some teams away, and to get the biggest bucks, you want competition at bidding time! ;)

Marrdro
06-20-2011, 04:38 PM
In Ray's defense, he is still on his 4th round rookie contract which he has way out-performed...he does deserve more money. And the kid is one hell of an athlete and committed to being in ridiculous shape. I saw something a year or two ago and his fat% was inhuman, like less than 3%?

Yeah, Marrdro you got a good point there...might be exciting to see him as a primary rusher from the Right End, or possibly mixing it up and rushing from the left side sometimes too. I also wonder what he might do in a 3-4 as a primary outside rusher (OLB) who got moved around a bunch!!?! ;)

But, I don't think he needs to lose any weight, he is pretty much the same size as Allen and hasn't shown any ill-effects such as injuries or loss of speed.

I also agree that he's not doing himself any favors by bitching to the media. Looking at our draft and the resigning of Robison seems to point to Ray moving on and us spending our big contract bucks elsewhere...like on Rice and/or a vet QB if the lockout lingers on into TC or preseason. Being a media whore might drive some teams away, and to get the biggest bucks, you want competition at bidding time! ;)
Hmmmm, OLB ehhhhh. Interesting idea. Never thought about that.

He seems to have the ability to read/react but I wonder about his speed.

Again, interesting.

Marrdro
06-20-2011, 04:50 PM
Group A
Jared Allen, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): He has a non-stop motor and recorded 40 sacks in the last three years. He also defended 13 passes and forced nine fumbles over that span, with most of that production coming while rushing the passer. Only DeMarcus Ware has more sacks (46.5) since 2008.




Group E
Ray Edwards, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): A potential free agent with 21.5 sacks over the past three seasons. The question is can he do as well without Jared Allen on the opposite side.


Vets still rank as top pass rushers but young faces closing gap (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82052b9f/article/vets-still-rank-as-top-pass-rushers-but-young-faces-closing-gap)

Caine
06-20-2011, 10:30 PM
Group A
Jared Allen, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): He has a non-stop motor and recorded 40 sacks in the last three years. He also defended 13 passes and forced nine fumbles over that span, with most of that production coming while rushing the passer. Only DeMarcus Ware has more sacks (46.5) since 2008.




Group E
Ray Edwards, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): A potential free agent with 21.5 sacks over the past three seasons. The question is can he do as well without Jared Allen on the opposite side.


Vets still rank as top pass rushers but young faces closing gap (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82052b9f/article/vets-still-rank-as-top-pass-rushers-but-young-faces-closing-gap)

So, even Pat Kirwan agrees that having Jared Allen on the opposite side of the line contributes to Rays success....as does everyone else except Marrdro.

Again, we'll see what happens. I remember when Alvin Harper (WR, Dallas) tried to parlay his success into a big FA contract...success derived primarily from who he played with...he bombed horribly in Tampa.

The NFL is full of stories like that. A guy makes a huge impact, and everyone thinks it's all about HIM. They conveniently forget all the other Pro-Bowlers on that unit.

That's how I see Ray. He's done real well being a member of a loaded line. While those other guys are being schemed for, he's managed to achieve some individual success. And his stats reflect that (Despite Marrdro claiming they don't).

The question is, what happens when he DOESN'T have a loaded line? What happens when HE becomes the Heavy Hitter? Does he stand up, or does he crumble?

To me, the fact that he really didn't distinguish himself last season - while the rest of the Defense was faltering - indicates that he's more a product of the system he's playing in rather than an individual achieving on a superior level on his own merits.

In short, he's Doug Sutherland. He's a GOOD player, but the true power on that line came from somewhere else...

Caine

Purple Floyd
06-21-2011, 01:52 AM
Group A
Jared Allen, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): He has a non-stop motor and recorded 40 sacks in the last three years. He also defended 13 passes and forced nine fumbles over that span, with most of that production coming while rushing the passer. Only DeMarcus Ware has more sacks (46.5) since 2008.




Group E
Ray Edwards, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): A potential free agent with 21.5 sacks over the past three seasons. The question is can he do as well without Jared Allen on the opposite side.


Vets still rank as top pass rushers but young faces closing gap (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82052b9f/article/vets-still-rank-as-top-pass-rushers-but-young-faces-closing-gap)

So, even Pat Kirwan agrees that having Jared Allen on the opposite side of the line contributes to Rays success....as does everyone else except Marrdro.

Again, we'll see what happens. I remember when Alvin Harper (WR, Dallas) tried to parlay his success into a big FA contract...success derived primarily from who he played with...he bombed horribly in Tampa.

The NFL is full of stories like that. A guy makes a huge impact, and everyone thinks it's all about HIM. They conveniently forget all the other Pro-Bowlers on that unit.

That's how I see Ray. He's done real well being a member of a loaded line. While those other guys are being schemed for, he's managed to achieve some individual success. And his stats reflect that (Despite Marrdro claiming they don't).

The question is, what happens when he DOESN'T have a loaded line? What happens when HE becomes the Heavy Hitter? Does he stand up, or does he crumble?

To me, the fact that he really didn't distinguish himself last season - while the rest of the Defense was faltering - indicates that he's more a product of the system he's playing in rather than an individual achieving on a superior level on his own merits.

In short, he's Doug Sutherland. He's a GOOD player, but the true power on that line came from somewhere else...

Caine

Yep.

He is a good bit player but he doesn't have the marbles to be the big dog and that is what he has to be to get the big pay day he wants. Once he figures out he is a bit player who deserves a bit contract he will either settle in and have an OK career or he will get pissed and switch over to being a bit player in the boxing industry.

Marrdro
06-21-2011, 01:15 PM
Group A
Jared Allen, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): He has a non-stop motor and recorded 40 sacks in the last three years. He also defended 13 passes and forced nine fumbles over that span, with most of that production coming while rushing the passer. Only DeMarcus Ware has more sacks (46.5) since 2008.




Group E
Ray Edwards, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): A potential free agent with 21.5 sacks over the past three seasons. The question is can he do as well without Jared Allen on the opposite side.


Vets still rank as top pass rushers but young faces closing gap (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82052b9f/article/vets-still-rank-as-top-pass-rushers-but-young-faces-closing-gap)

So, even Pat Kirwan agrees that having Jared Allen on the opposite side of the line contributes to Rays success....as does everyone else except Marrdro.


Show me one place were I have said otherwise.

I think you will see that I've repeatedly said the following:

a. Phat Pat isn't that dominant anymore, especially in the passing game.
b. K-dubb isn't that dominant anymore. Actually believe its because he quit juicing.
c. JA disappears at times, gets handled one on one more than you guys want to admit and gets caught up field rushing the QB on running plays.
d. Ray gets doubled more than you guys want to admit. Used the Dallas game as a prime example.

But I don't think you can find anything that states what you just said.

As with our good friend PF, it seems like you have a case of the i_bleed_purple and his consistent twisting (completely misunderstanding) of what I said


........snip..........
In short, he's Doug Sutherland. He's a GOOD player, but the true power on that line came from somewhere else...

Caine
Makes one wonder if you aren't just a bit overly worried that he will get a huge contract and he will move on and he will play well. Then your one and only point on Ray will go out the window now won't it.

Its OK, I won't hack on you that happens.......snicker.....;)

Marrdro
06-21-2011, 01:23 PM
Yep.

He is a good bit player but he doesn't have the marbles to be the big dog and that is what he has to be to get the big pay day he wants. Once he figures out he is a bit player who deserves a bit contract he will either settle in and have an OK career or he will get pissed and switch over to being a bit player in the boxing industry.
Whats lost in all of this is that he is coming off his first contract and still could get better than he is. Mix in the statistics that bare that out (which Caine so casually ignored and jumped onto the Kirwan article) and it makes on one "Ponder" why the staff isn't going to pay him what he has coming and seem to be willing to let him walk.

Again, I still say it comes down to the little point I keep making....He probably won't make it through the life of a contract at LDE.

I, for one, sure hope Griff is ready to take the helm at LDE. We already saw Rob try it and found out he can't hold up against the run.

Purple Floyd
06-21-2011, 01:31 PM
Yep.

He is a good bit player but he doesn't have the marbles to be the big dog and that is what he has to be to get the big pay day he wants. Once he figures out he is a bit player who deserves a bit contract he will either settle in and have an OK career or he will get pissed and switch over to being a bit player in the boxing industry.
Whats lost in all of this is that he is coming off his first contract and still could get better than he is. Mix in the statistics that bare that out (which Caine so casually ignored and jumped onto the Kirwan article) and it makes on one "Ponder" why the staff isn't going to pay him what he has coming and seem to be willing to let him walk.

Again, I still say it comes down to the little point I keep making....He probably won't make it through the life of a contract at LDE.

I, for one, sure hope Griff is ready to take the helm at LDE. We already saw Rob try it and found out he can't hold up against the run.

He might get marginally better but he won't get exponentially better and unless he goes to Detroit he probably won't be playing on a line that has 3 other pro bowl caliber players on it and that is going to make it much harder to maintain his gaudy statistics. ;)


He probably won't make it through the life of a RDE contract if he signs any more boxing contracts.:P

Caine
06-21-2011, 01:59 PM
Group A
Jared Allen, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): He has a non-stop motor and recorded 40 sacks in the last three years. He also defended 13 passes and forced nine fumbles over that span, with most of that production coming while rushing the passer. Only DeMarcus Ware has more sacks (46.5) since 2008.




Group E
Ray Edwards, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): A potential free agent with 21.5 sacks over the past three seasons. The question is can he do as well without Jared Allen on the opposite side.


Vets still rank as top pass rushers but young faces closing gap (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82052b9f/article/vets-still-rank-as-top-pass-rushers-but-young-faces-closing-gap)

So, even Pat Kirwan agrees that having Jared Allen on the opposite side of the line contributes to Rays success....as does everyone else except Marrdro.


Show me one place were I have said otherwise.

I think you will see that I've repeatedly said the following:

a. Phat Pat isn't that dominant anymore, especially in the passing game.
b. K-dubb isn't that dominant anymore. Actually believe its because he quit juicing.
c. JA disappears at times, gets handled one on one more than you guys want to admit and gets caught up field rushing the QB on running plays.
d. Ray gets doubled more than you guys want to admit. Used the Dallas game as a prime example.

But I don't think you can find anything that states what you just said.

As with our good friend PF, it seems like you have a case of the i_bleed_purple and his consistent twisting (completely misunderstanding) of what I said


........snip..........
In short, he's Doug Sutherland. He's a GOOD player, but the true power on that line came from somewhere else...

Caine
Makes one wonder if you aren't just a bit overly worried that he will get a huge contract and he will move on and he will play well. Then your one and only point on Ray will go out the window now won't it.

Its OK, I won't hack on you that happens.......snicker.....;)

1: You and several others have REPEATEDLY tried to downplay the significance of Ray playing with Pro-Bowlers. Trying to act now like you haven't is a bit disingenuous.

2: Why would I "worry" about being wrong about Ray? Using the Marrdro model I'll simply claim that I was misinterpreted, revise my stance accordingly, and continue to plow ahead blindly...then I'll threaten to become a fan of another team for good measure.

Or, I couldn't care less if Ray moves on. I couldn't care less if he gets a big contract. I think he WILL get the contract, but I DON'T think he'll be as good as hoped. I haven't EVER backed off that mark. I ahve never hedged my bets on this point.

If equating him with Sutherland somehow makes you think I'm elevating my opinion of Ray, then you need to review your Viking history. Sutherland was good, but Eller, Page, and Marshall made that line special.

Caine

Marrdro
06-21-2011, 02:03 PM
Yep.

He is a good bit player but he doesn't have the marbles to be the big dog and that is what he has to be to get the big pay day he wants. Once he figures out he is a bit player who deserves a bit contract he will either settle in and have an OK career or he will get pissed and switch over to being a bit player in the boxing industry.
Whats lost in all of this is that he is coming off his first contract and still could get better than he is. Mix in the statistics that bare that out (which Caine so casually ignored and jumped onto the Kirwan article) and it makes on one "Ponder" why the staff isn't going to pay him what he has coming and seem to be willing to let him walk.

Again, I still say it comes down to the little point I keep making....He probably won't make it through the life of a contract at LDE.

I, for one, sure hope Griff is ready to take the helm at LDE. We already saw Rob try it and found out he can't hold up against the run.

He might get marginally better but he won't get exponentially better and unless he goes to Detroit he probably won't be playing on a line that has 3 other pro bowl caliber players on it and that is going to make it much harder to maintain his gaudy statistics. ;)


He probably won't make it through the life of a RDE contract if he signs any more boxing contracts.:P
Even if he gets marginally better he would then be ranked number 1 next year instead of number 2.

Marrdro
06-21-2011, 02:08 PM
Group A
Jared Allen, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): He has a non-stop motor and recorded 40 sacks in the last three years. He also defended 13 passes and forced nine fumbles over that span, with most of that production coming while rushing the passer. Only DeMarcus Ware has more sacks (46.5) since 2008.




Group E
Ray Edwards, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): A potential free agent with 21.5 sacks over the past three seasons. The question is can he do as well without Jared Allen on the opposite side.


Vets still rank as top pass rushers but young faces closing gap (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82052b9f/article/vets-still-rank-as-top-pass-rushers-but-young-faces-closing-gap)

So, even Pat Kirwan agrees that having Jared Allen on the opposite side of the line contributes to Rays success....as does everyone else except Marrdro.


Show me one place were I have said otherwise.

I think you will see that I've repeatedly said the following:

a. Phat Pat isn't that dominant anymore, especially in the passing game.
b. K-dubb isn't that dominant anymore. Actually believe its because he quit juicing.
c. JA disappears at times, gets handled one on one more than you guys want to admit and gets caught up field rushing the QB on running plays.
d. Ray gets doubled more than you guys want to admit. Used the Dallas game as a prime example.

But I don't think you can find anything that states what you just said.

As with our good friend PF, it seems like you have a case of the i_bleed_purple and his consistent twisting (completely misunderstanding) of what I said


........snip..........
In short, he's Doug Sutherland. He's a GOOD player, but the true power on that line came from somewhere else...

Caine
Makes one wonder if you aren't just a bit overly worried that he will get a huge contract and he will move on and he will play well. Then your one and only point on Ray will go out the window now won't it.

Its OK, I won't hack on you that happens.......snicker.....;)

1: You and several others have REPEATEDLY tried to downplay the significance of Ray playing with Pro-Bowlers. Trying to act now like you haven't is a bit disingenuous.

2: Why would I "worry" about being wrong about Ray? Using the Marrdro model I'll simply claim that I was misinterpreted, revise my stance accordingly, and continue to plow ahead blindly...then I'll threaten to become a fan of another team for good measure.

Or, I couldn't care less if Ray moves on. I couldn't care less if he gets a big contract. I think he WILL get the contract, but I DON'T think he'll be as good as hoped. I haven't EVER backed off that mark. I ahve never hedged my bets on this point.

If equating him with Sutherland somehow makes you think I'm elevating my opinion of Ray, then you need to review your Viking history. Sutherland was good, but Eller, Page, and Marshall made that line special.

Caine
I ask again, show me one instance were I've downplayed the other DLmen? As I stated above, you can't but you can find the stuff I admit to discussing.

Again, I don't think our DL has played that well over the last 2 years, especially last year. Hell, I've even been pretty vocal about wanting to upgrade the DT (0/1 tech) for 3 years.

If you believe that is downplaying their impact, then I guess I will have to concede the discussion point.

Unwillingly, though.

i_bleed_purple
06-21-2011, 02:11 PM
Lets put it this way, Edwards is the Gary Larsen of our Front-4.

Playing with three all-pro players, he's just along for the ride.

At the end of the day, when you think of the Purple People Eaters, you think of Alan Page, Carl Eller and Jim Marshall. That Larsen guy was pretty good too, but the other three were on a whole other level.

Unfortunately, aside from his rookie season< Larsen never played anywhere else, so It's hard to say how he would have performed if he didn't play beside three hall of fame calibre players. I suspect not as well.

Caine
06-21-2011, 03:07 PM
Group A
Jared Allen, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): He has a non-stop motor and recorded 40 sacks in the last three years. He also defended 13 passes and forced nine fumbles over that span, with most of that production coming while rushing the passer. Only DeMarcus Ware has more sacks (46.5) since 2008.




Group E
Ray Edwards, 4-3 DE, Vikings (>): A potential free agent with 21.5 sacks over the past three seasons. The question is can he do as well without Jared Allen on the opposite side.


Vets still rank as top pass rushers but young faces closing gap (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82052b9f/article/vets-still-rank-as-top-pass-rushers-but-young-faces-closing-gap)

So, even Pat Kirwan agrees that having Jared Allen on the opposite side of the line contributes to Rays success....as does everyone else except Marrdro.


Show me one place were I have said otherwise.

I think you will see that I've repeatedly said the following:

a. Phat Pat isn't that dominant anymore, especially in the passing game.
b. K-dubb isn't that dominant anymore. Actually believe its because he quit juicing.
c. JA disappears at times, gets handled one on one more than you guys want to admit and gets caught up field rushing the QB on running plays.
d. Ray gets doubled more than you guys want to admit. Used the Dallas game as a prime example.

But I don't think you can find anything that states what you just said.

As with our good friend PF, it seems like you have a case of the i_bleed_purple and his consistent twisting (completely misunderstanding) of what I said


........snip..........
In short, he's Doug Sutherland. He's a GOOD player, but the true power on that line came from somewhere else...

Caine
Makes one wonder if you aren't just a bit overly worried that he will get a huge contract and he will move on and he will play well. Then your one and only point on Ray will go out the window now won't it.

Its OK, I won't hack on you that happens.......snicker.....;)

1: You and several others have REPEATEDLY tried to downplay the significance of Ray playing with Pro-Bowlers. Trying to act now like you haven't is a bit disingenuous.

2: Why would I "worry" about being wrong about Ray? Using the Marrdro model I'll simply claim that I was misinterpreted, revise my stance accordingly, and continue to plow ahead blindly...then I'll threaten to become a fan of another team for good measure.

Or, I couldn't care less if Ray moves on. I couldn't care less if he gets a big contract. I think he WILL get the contract, but I DON'T think he'll be as good as hoped. I haven't EVER backed off that mark. I ahve never hedged my bets on this point.

If equating him with Sutherland somehow makes you think I'm elevating my opinion of Ray, then you need to review your Viking history. Sutherland was good, but Eller, Page, and Marshall made that line special.

Caine
I ask again, show me one instance were I've downplayed the other DLmen? As I stated above, you can't but you can find the stuff I admit to discussing.

Again, I don't think our DL has played that well over the last 2 years, especially last year. Hell, I've even been pretty vocal about wanting to upgrade the DT (0/1 tech) for 3 years.

If you believe that is downplaying their impact, then I guess I will have to concede the discussion point.

Unwillingly, though.


To sit here and keep saying he is riding the coat tails of Phat Pat (took alot of reps off/Maybe he was helping from the sidelines), K-will (disappeared in the playoffs along with JA) is kindof ignoring the actual facts about what was going on.

From: http://www.purplepride.org/forum/2-vikings-fan-forum/1047608-is-it-just-me-or-is-edwards-a-real-jackass?limit=15&start=30. Post #40


ejmat wrote:

gagarr wrote:

Didn't Ray say after Allen came he was going to set the all time sack record for a season?

Well, if he does that he will GET PAID double next year what he would have gotten paid this year.

So Ray, it's simple, make yourself irresistable and the $$$ will come.

Exactly. He has all the opportunity available to him. He is on a line with 2 players that consistently make the probowl and another that has made the probowl and plays like he could make it every year.
Do I need to put his stats up here again. I think those are a bit more relevant than some skewed probowl voting.

From: http://www.purplepride.org/forum/2-vikings-fan-forum/1047608-is-it-just-me-or-is-edwards-a-real-jackass?limit=15&start=180

post 189



ejmat wrote:
So you don't think his stats are skewed? First, they are unofficial statistics. Second, the fact he plays on a line of 4 in which he is 4th best. You can post those stats in every post you like. It doesn't mean they tell the entire story and it doesn't mean they don't come with causual affects.
Nope, they aren't. In fact, if you match them (site for site) you will see they are pretty consistent across the board.

Even though he isn't ranked up there with the sack leaders (RDE's by the way) he sure gets alot of pressure and hits on QB's as a LDE.

Take him and put him on a team that will use him as a RDE were his first reaction/read is rush the QB and then play the run instead of play the run as his first reaction/read and rush the QB second and I suspect those "Sack" numbers everyone puts so much credence to would go up as well.

Lets not forget.....He is still maturing and is gonna only get better.

In short, your stance that he is only as good as he is, is because of the DL he is playing on is just crazy talk. ;)

Post 192 of the same page.


If Ray only looks good because of the players around him, how do you account for Ray getting more double teams in the playoffs than JA?

I bet Dcoords don't sit over there and say, "Don't worry about Edwards, he only leads the league in QB pressures and QB hits because the rest of the line is getting doubled."

(Sarcasim alert)

If you have the means, I recommend you go back and look at how many times the TE stayed with the RT this year when it came to Ray and blocking. When teams gave help on JA's side, it was mostly just a RB.

from: http://www.purplepride.org/forum/2-vikings-fan-forum/1047608-is-it-just-me-or-is-edwards-a-real-jackass?limit=15&start=195

Post #202

That enough for ya, Marty?

Caine

Marrdro
06-21-2011, 03:22 PM
[/quote]
Show me one place were I have said otherwise.

I think you will see that I've repeatedly said the following:

a. Phat Pat isn't that dominant anymore, especially in the passing game.
b. K-dubb isn't that dominant anymore. Actually believe its because he quit juicing.
c. JA disappears at times, gets handled one on one more than you guys want to admit and gets caught up field rushing the QB on running plays.
d. Ray gets doubled more than you guys want to admit. Used the Dallas game as a prime example.

But I don't think you can find anything that states what you just said.
As with our good friend PF, it seems like you have a case of the i_bleed_purple and his consistent twisting (completely misunderstanding) of what I said



To sit here and keep saying he is riding the coat tails of Phat Pat (took alot of reps off/Maybe he was helping from the sidelines), K-will (disappeared in the playoffs along with JA) is kindof ignoring the actual facts about what was going on.
Am I wrong here? Look at the stats for those two? Again, the middle of our DL sucks and does not help when it comes to pressure on the QB but in no way equates to me saying that Edwards gets his because those two are there.



Do I need to put his stats up here again. I think those are a bit more relevant than some skewed probowl voting.

What?



ejmat wrote:
So you don't think his stats are skewed? First, they are unofficial statistics. Second, the fact he plays on a line of 4 in which he is 4th best. You can post those stats in every post you like. It doesn't mean they tell the entire story and it doesn't mean they don't come with causual affects.
Nope, they aren't. In fact, if you match them (site for site) you will see they are pretty consistent across the board.

Even though he isn't ranked up there with the sack leaders (RDE's by the way) he sure gets alot of pressure and hits on QB's as a LDE.

Take him and put him on a team that will use him as a RDE were his first reaction/read is rush the QB and then play the run instead of play the run as his first reaction/read and rush the QB second and I suspect those "Sack" numbers everyone puts so much credence to would go up as well.

Lets not forget.....He is still maturing and is gonna only get better.

In short, your stance that he is only as good as he is, is because of the DL he is playing on is just crazy talk. ;)
Again, not a diss on the players he is with. This was about him moving back to RDE were his first step is to the QB instead of his first step as a LDE.


If Ray only looks good because of the players around him, how do you account for Ray getting more double teams in the playoffs than JA?

I bet Dcoords don't sit over there and say, "Don't worry about Edwards, he only leads the league in QB pressures and QB hits because the rest of the line is getting doubled."

(Sarcasim alert)

If you have the means, I recommend you go back and look at how many times the TE stayed with the RT this year when it came to Ray and blocking. When teams gave help on JA's side, it was mostly just a RB.
Again, discussion about the point of JA disappearing. Doesn't take away from the DL play. Hacks on JA for disappearing.



That enough for ya, Marty?

Caine
Comeon, you gotta try better. Those are right inline with my points I just said.

i_bleed_purple
06-21-2011, 03:25 PM
Comeon, you gotta try better. Those are right inline with my points I just said.

yeah Caine, you know actual posts he made, and statistical proof is not good enough for Marty. You need something a little more... Irrational.

Marrdro
06-21-2011, 03:38 PM
Comeon, you gotta try better. Those are right inline with my points I just said.

yeah Caine, you know actual posts he made, and statistical proof is not good enough for Marty. You need something a little more... Irrational.
LOL, he did nothing but post posts I've made in the past that dealt with the items I listed (in red) above.

As my good friend Caine once said, "I make alot of posts on here. Someone can take almost any one of them and make them fit their point".

Caine
06-21-2011, 06:41 PM
Comeon, you gotta try better. Those are right inline with my points I just said.

yeah Caine, you know actual posts he made, and statistical proof is not good enough for Marty. You need something a little more... Irrational.
LOL, he did nothing but post posts I've made in the past that dealt with the items I listed (in red) above.

As my good friend Caine once said, "I make alot of posts on here. Someone can take almost any one of them and make them fit their point".

Sure, they could...except I kept them intact (mostly), cited where I got them, and pointed out the fact that you REPEATEDLY tried to downplay the significance of Edwards occupying a line with 3 Pro_bowlers...which is what I said you did, and you denied.

I don't dispute the other points:

a. Phat Pat isn't that dominant anymore, especially in the passing game. But we don't really ask him to be...we ask him to eat up linemen...and he does.

b. K-dubb isn't that dominant anymore. Actually believe its because he quit juicing. He had an off season...so did the entire Defense. Making Juicing allegations is very presumptuous. Will he be back to his old form this season? We'll see.

c. JA disappears at times, gets handled one on one more than you guys want to admit and gets caught up field rushing the QB on running plays. I agree with everything but the last. JA gets burned upfield once in awhile, but not that often...and it's usually when he's blocked out correctly and the LB doesn't fill the gap properly. But I was very disappointed at how GB handled him this year.

d. Ray gets doubled more than you guys want to admit. Used the Dallas game as a prime example. One game. One game is not a statistical proof. We don't deny that he catches doubles - especially when the play is to his side - but we ARE saying that he draw a lot LESS attention that the other members of that line. Subsequently, his stats reflect the FACT that opposing teams try and take the other members of that line out of the game. They worry about Kevin Williams. They worry about Jared Allen. They worry about Phat Pat - not as a pass rusher, but as a lineman eater...you can't block him with 1 guy. That FEEDS Ray. That gives him OPPORTUNITIES to shine.

What happens if Ray is the best guy on the line? What happens when teams are scheming to take HIM out of the equation?

We don't know.

Again, he's GOOD...we all agree on that...he's just not GREAT.

Caine

Marrdro
06-22-2011, 05:17 PM
Comeon, you gotta try better. Those are right inline with my points I just said.

yeah Caine, you know actual posts he made, and statistical proof is not good enough for Marty. You need something a little more... Irrational.
LOL, he did nothing but post posts I've made in the past that dealt with the items I listed (in red) above.

As my good friend Caine once said, "I make alot of posts on here. Someone can take almost any one of them and make them fit their point".

Sure, they could...except I kept them intact (mostly), cited where I got them, and pointed out the fact that you REPEATEDLY tried to downplay the significance of Edwards occupying a line with 3 Pro_bowlers...which is what I said you did, and you denied.

I don't dispute the other points:

a. Phat Pat isn't that dominant anymore, especially in the passing game. But we don't really ask him to be...we ask him to eat up linemen...and he does.

b. K-dubb isn't that dominant anymore. Actually believe its because he quit juicing. He had an off season...so did the entire Defense. Making Juicing allegations is very presumptuous. Will he be back to his old form this season? We'll see.

c. JA disappears at times, gets handled one on one more than you guys want to admit and gets caught up field rushing the QB on running plays. I agree with everything but the last. JA gets burned upfield once in awhile, but not that often...and it's usually when he's blocked out correctly and the LB doesn't fill the gap properly. But I was very disappointed at how GB handled him this year.

d. Ray gets doubled more than you guys want to admit. Used the Dallas game as a prime example. One game. One game is not a statistical proof. We don't deny that he catches doubles - especially when the play is to his side - but we ARE saying that he draw a lot LESS attention that the other members of that line. Subsequently, his stats reflect the FACT that opposing teams try and take the other members of that line out of the game. They worry about Kevin Williams. They worry about Jared Allen. They worry about Phat Pat - not as a pass rusher, but as a lineman eater...you can't block him with 1 guy. That FEEDS Ray. That gives him OPPORTUNITIES to shine.

What happens if Ray is the best guy on the line? What happens when teams are scheming to take HIM out of the equation?

We don't know.

Again, he's GOOD...we all agree on that...he's just not GREAT.

Caine
Two things...

I've never once said Ray was great.

And we ask Phat Pat to do more than stop the run. He is supposed to collapse the pocket as well.

I would love to see him back, but only if we use him late in the games when we need to make short yardage stops/are sure the team is going to run and if he takes a pay cut that reflects that.

Knight of God
06-24-2011, 07:05 AM
I honestly hope that he signs with someone other than the Falcons or Vikings. I like the Ravens alright, but I doubt Lewis would put up with a bunch of hoofladada from him.

He's an okay player, but no one to get upset or excited over. Kinda puts me in the mind of Tavaris Jackson in some ways. He has the tools and athleticism...just not a game breaker.

He was doubled quite a bit, but not enough to defend him. Most of any OL seems to get caught in the middle trying to stop the Williams Wall. No they are not a sack tandem but are beastly at the POA and causes miss matches in blocking schemes. Look at a rewind and see how many times Edwards was yet doubled by RT and FB, TE, WR, or H-Back.

11 sacks from Allen and he seemed all year like he wasn't really up for it. But even his 11 sacks and turnovers was really good and he faces LT. The anchor of an OL. A LE who doesn't get doubled is just shameful.

We use a rotation that only keeps Abraham in for most of the game. You guys rotate way less and stayed on the field quite a bit due to 3 and outs and turnovers and this guy managed 8 sacks and 37 tackles. Nothing else.

Even doubled a RB and QB should statistically run into you by accident way more than that. I don't know. I'm thinking buyer beware.

And stop dissing on Jared Allen. I'd take him over Edwards any day.

ejmat
06-24-2011, 06:12 PM
I honestly hope that he signs with someone other than the Falcons or Vikings. I like the Ravens alright, but I doubt Lewis would put up with a bunch of hoofladada from him.

He's an okay player, but no one to get upset or excited over. Kinda puts me in the mind of Tavaris Jackson in some ways. He has the tools and athleticism...just not a game breaker.

He was doubled quite a bit, but not enough to defend him. Most of any OL seems to get caught in the middle trying to stop the Williams Wall. No they are not a sack tandem but are beastly at the POA and causes miss matches in blocking schemes. Look at a rewind and see how many times Edwards was yet doubled by RT and FB, TE, WR, or H-Back.

11 sacks from Allen and he seemed all year like he wasn't really up for it. But even his 11 sacks and turnovers was really good and he faces LT. The anchor of an OL. A LE who doesn't get doubled is just shameful.

We use a rotation that only keeps Abraham in for most of the game. You guys rotate way less and stayed on the field quite a bit due to 3 and outs and turnovers and this guy managed 8 sacks and 37 tackles. Nothing else.

Even doubled a RB and QB should statistically run into you by accident way more than that. I don't know. I'm thinking buyer beware.

And stop dissing on Jared Allen. I'd take him over Edwards any day.
Great post and pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Marrdro
06-27-2011, 06:23 PM
I honestly hope that he signs with someone other than the Falcons or Vikings. I like the Ravens alright, but I doubt Lewis would put up with a bunch of hoofladada from him.

He's an okay player, but no one to get upset or excited over. Kinda puts me in the mind of Tavaris Jackson in some ways. He has the tools and athleticism...just not a game breaker.

He was doubled quite a bit, but not enough to defend him. Most of any OL seems to get caught in the middle trying to stop the Williams Wall. No they are not a sack tandem but are beastly at the POA and causes miss matches in blocking schemes. Look at a rewind and see how many times Edwards was yet doubled by RT and FB, TE, WR, or H-Back.

11 sacks from Allen and he seemed all year like he wasn't really up for it. But even his 11 sacks and turnovers was really good and he faces LT. The anchor of an OL. A LE who doesn't get doubled is just shameful.

We use a rotation that only keeps Abraham in for most of the game. You guys rotate way less and stayed on the field quite a bit due to 3 and outs and turnovers and this guy managed 8 sacks and 37 tackles. Nothing else.

Even doubled a RB and QB should statistically run into you by accident way more than that. I don't know. I'm thinking buyer beware.

And stop dissing on Jared Allen. I'd take him over Edwards any day.
LOL, no one is dissing on JA. Even our stars can get hacked on on this site when they mess up.

As to your point....(higlighted in red).....I like were you are going with that one.

Not sure if you caught the last few games last year when coach Pagac was calling the plays but we saw some very interesting DL rotations to include Griff at RDE and Guion in at the 3/5 tech.

I hope we see more of that stuff this year as I've always said that Leslie did two things poorly.....DL rotations and showed blitz to soon.

Marrdro
06-27-2011, 06:24 PM
Great post and pretty much hits the nail on the head.
He sure seems to be a nice breath of fresh air my friend. Got him steadily climbing some spreadsheets. ;)

ejmat
06-27-2011, 07:36 PM
Great post and pretty much hits the nail on the head.
He sure seems to be a nice breath of fresh air my friend. Got him steadily climbing some spreadsheets. ;)
LOL. Somehow I knew you would :laugh:

Marrdro
06-27-2011, 07:39 PM
Great post and pretty much hits the nail on the head.
He sure seems to be a nice breath of fresh air my friend. Got him steadily climbing some spreadsheets. ;)
LOL. Somehow I knew you would :laugh:
Nothing against my good friend bleed, but it seems like it is just he and I of late.

Love discussing with him, but some more (new) participation is really a welcome site.

Caine
06-27-2011, 07:40 PM
Great post and pretty much hits the nail on the head.
He sure seems to be a nice breath of fresh air my friend. Got him steadily climbing some spreadsheets. ;)
LOL. Somehow I knew you would :laugh:

Isn't "climbing spreadsheets" code for "Agrees with Marrdro"?

Poor kid...

Caine

i_bleed_purple
06-27-2011, 07:43 PM
Great post and pretty much hits the nail on the head.
He sure seems to be a nice breath of fresh air my friend. Got him steadily climbing some spreadsheets. ;)
LOL. Somehow I knew you would :laugh:

Isn't "climbing spreadsheets" code for "Agrees with Marrdro"?

Poor kid...

Caine

http://goallineblitz.com/images/game/forum/smileys/rofl.gif

Marrdro
06-27-2011, 09:04 PM
Great post and pretty much hits the nail on the head.
He sure seems to be a nice breath of fresh air my friend. Got him steadily climbing some spreadsheets. ;)
LOL. Somehow I knew you would :laugh:

Isn't "climbing spreadsheets" code for "Agrees with Marrdro"?

Poor kid...

Caine

http://goallineblitz.com/images/game/forum/smileys/rofl.gif
You have climbed almost all of them and if the truth be told, you and I are almost 180 out on almost every topic.

Nope, to climb a speadsheet, one must be able to do nothing more than keep a good football discussion going regardless of ones stance.

i_bleed_purple
06-27-2011, 09:06 PM
Great post and pretty much hits the nail on the head.
He sure seems to be a nice breath of fresh air my friend. Got him steadily climbing some spreadsheets. ;)
LOL. Somehow I knew you would :laugh:

Isn't "climbing spreadsheets" code for "Agrees with Marrdro"?

Poor kid...

Caine

http://goallineblitz.com/images/game/forum/smileys/rofl.gif
You have climbed almost all of them and if the truth be told, you and I are almost 180 out on almost every topic.

Nope, to climb a speadsheet, one must be able to do nothing more than keep a good football discussion going regardless of ones stance.

I disagree

ejmat
06-28-2011, 03:59 AM
Great post and pretty much hits the nail on the head.
He sure seems to be a nice breath of fresh air my friend. Got him steadily climbing some spreadsheets. ;)
LOL. Somehow I knew you would :laugh:

Isn't "climbing spreadsheets" code for "Agrees with Marrdro"?

Poor kid...

Caine

http://goallineblitz.com/images/game/forum/smileys/rofl.gif
You have climbed almost all of them and if the truth be told, you and I are almost 180 out on almost every topic.

Nope, to climb a speadsheet, one must be able to do nothing more than keep a good football discussion going regardless of ones stance.

I disagree
LOL to this whole discussion. We may not always agree on things but at least we all keep a sense of humor through it all.

Marrdro
06-28-2011, 02:40 PM
Great post and pretty much hits the nail on the head.
He sure seems to be a nice breath of fresh air my friend. Got him steadily climbing some spreadsheets. ;)
LOL. Somehow I knew you would :laugh:

Isn't "climbing spreadsheets" code for "Agrees with Marrdro"?

Poor kid...

Caine

http://goallineblitz.com/images/game/forum/smileys/rofl.gif
You have climbed almost all of them and if the truth be told, you and I are almost 180 out on almost every topic.

Nope, to climb a speadsheet, one must be able to do nothing more than keep a good football discussion going regardless of ones stance.

I disagree
LOL to this whole discussion. We may not always agree on things but at least we all keep a sense of humor through it all.
Aint PPO grand. ;)

Marrdro
06-28-2011, 02:45 PM
Dawson Devitt of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution considers whether soon-to-be UFA Ray Edwards would be a good fit for the Falcons. The main point against Edwards according to Devitt: Ray played on the same line with 3 Pro-Bowlers and still never managed double-digit sacks in any one season. The main point in Edwards’ favor: His physical gifts. And the fact that he would be lining up opposite Pro Bowler John Abraham, theoretically helping him to produce big numbers (cause that theory proved so true when Ray was lining up across from Jared Allen).

Ray Edwards to the Falcons? (http://thevikingage.com/2011/06/27/ray-edwards-to-the-falcons/)
I still marvel that the only thing most people use to measure a DE is the Sack Stat.

It was refreshing to read an article that talked about DE's not making it into Canton just on sack totals alone. Maybe the fans (and the author) will realize that the sack is cool, but it is only one part of the DE's job.

ejmat
06-28-2011, 03:52 PM
Dawson Devitt of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution considers whether soon-to-be UFA Ray Edwards would be a good fit for the Falcons. The main point against Edwards according to Devitt: Ray played on the same line with 3 Pro-Bowlers and still never managed double-digit sacks in any one season. The main point in Edwards’ favor: His physical gifts. And the fact that he would be lining up opposite Pro Bowler John Abraham, theoretically helping him to produce big numbers (cause that theory proved so true when Ray was lining up across from Jared Allen).

Ray Edwards to the Falcons? (http://thevikingage.com/2011/06/27/ray-edwards-to-the-falcons/)
I still marvel that the only thing most people use to measure a DE is the Sack Stat.

It was refreshing to read an article that talked about DE's not making it into Canton just on sack totals alone. Maybe the fans (and the author) will realize that the sack is cool, but it is only one part of the DE's job.
I agree it shouldn't always be measured by sack stats. I can't argue with that because it isn't the entire picture. All of those other stats you provide with pressures, hurries, knock downs, etc... should all be considered. At the same time the fact he did play next to 3 probowlers should be considered as well. Yes he does have the physical tools. Yes he is a decent player. What's left to be determined is can he take on the pressure of being the main guy? You a couple of others seem to think so. I and others don't think so.

At this time it's all speculation until it happens. We an only judge based upon what we see. Stats are not everything and my pioint with Ray is he should be able to have more sacks based on the fact he has played next to 3 pro bowl calibur DL that normally take on more of the load. The pressures, hurries and knoock downs would be better calculated by how much time elapses prior to the QB throwing the ball. Just becaue he gets those stats doesn't mean it was due because he was in the QBs face quickly.

ejmat
06-28-2011, 04:05 PM
Here is a pretty article on Ray Edwards. I have to say I like how the authro looked at both sides of Ray Edwards. Pretty fair assessments if you ask me.

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-falcons-fans/2011/06/26/should-the-falcons-sign-de-ray-edwards/?cxntfid=blogs_atlanta_falcons_fans

Marrdro
06-28-2011, 06:02 PM
Dawson Devitt of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution considers whether soon-to-be UFA Ray Edwards would be a good fit for the Falcons. The main point against Edwards according to Devitt: Ray played on the same line with 3 Pro-Bowlers and still never managed double-digit sacks in any one season. The main point in Edwards’ favor: His physical gifts. And the fact that he would be lining up opposite Pro Bowler John Abraham, theoretically helping him to produce big numbers (cause that theory proved so true when Ray was lining up across from Jared Allen).

Ray Edwards to the Falcons? (http://thevikingage.com/2011/06/27/ray-edwards-to-the-falcons/)
I still marvel that the only thing most people use to measure a DE is the Sack Stat.

It was refreshing to read an article that talked about DE's not making it into Canton just on sack totals alone. Maybe the fans (and the author) will realize that the sack is cool, but it is only one part of the DE's job.
I agree it shouldn't always be measured by sack stats. I can't argue with that because it isn't the entire picture. All of those other stats you provide with pressures, hurries, knock downs, etc... should all be considered. At the same time the fact he did play next to 3 probowlers should be considered as well. Yes he does have the physical tools. Yes he is a decent player. What's left to be determined is can he take on the pressure of being the main guy? You a couple of others seem to think so. I and others don't think so.

At this time it's all speculation until it happens. We an only judge based upon what we see. Stats are not everything and my pioint with Ray is he should be able to have more sacks based on the fact he has played next to 3 pro bowl calibur DL that normally take on more of the load. The pressures, hurries and knoock downs would be better calculated by how much time elapses prior to the QB throwing the ball. Just becaue he gets those stats doesn't mean it was due because he was in the QBs face quickly.
A damn fine post. Just one followon discussion point/comment.

I am not so sure I agree with you when you say that I think he is ready to be the main guy. Remember, my feelings on Ray are more along the lines of I don't think the staff is going to pay him/retain him, because of his ability to make it through a long term contract (and the money that comes with it) at LDE.

I for one am willing to move on to Griff at LDE this year, because he is in fact a true LDE and not a RDE beefed up to play the spot.

Additionally, you will find comments from me saying that if I were a team that were to invest big money in him, I would make him slim back down 8lbs or so and move him back to RDE.

All the stuff that follows from that is amplifying discussions from people who say things like 8lbs isn't that much or he played LDE in college.

Marrdro
06-28-2011, 06:18 PM
Here is a pretty article on Ray Edwards. I have to say I like how the authro looked at both sides of Ray Edwards. Pretty fair assessments if you ask me.

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-falcons-fans/2011/06/26/should-the-falcons-sign-de-ray-edwards/?cxntfid=blogs_atlanta_falcons_fans
Your correct that was a damn fine article. As always, a couple of comments though.....

a. The benchmark is still the sack totals. I would like it if one of these authors would for once, discuss the difference between a RDE and a LDE when it comes to their first, second and third read/react responsibilitites.

That and that alone would account for some of the differences between how many times a RDE gets to the QB before a LDE does.

b. I like the authors point about the RDE getting there first, in most cases. To tell the truth, he almost gets into my request in item a) above.

c. Two Free Agent DE's that most contend are the top two in this years class.....
Charles Johnson.....Games/48 Comb/114 Total/89 Asst/25 Sack.21.5
Ray Edwards.........Games/72 Comb/182 Total/139 Asst/43 Sack/29.5

Something to think about when you are wondering why in the hell other teams are looking at Ray.

i_bleed_purple
06-28-2011, 06:22 PM
Here is a pretty article on Ray Edwards. I have to say I like how the authro looked at both sides of Ray Edwards. Pretty fair assessments if you ask me.

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-falcons-fans/2011/06/26/should-the-falcons-sign-de-ray-edwards/?cxntfid=blogs_atlanta_falcons_fans
Your correct that was a damn fine article. As always, a couple of comments though.....

a. The benchmark is still the sack totals. I would like it if one of these authors would for once, discuss the difference between a RDE and a LDE when it comes to their first, second and third read/react responsibilitites.

The issue is, most writers do not know exactly what their first, second and third responsibilities are. You do not know what they are, I do not know what they are. You can guess based on what you may have done in high school, what you may have read, etc. but different schemes call different plays that call for different assignments. It's foolish to believe on every single play, the LDE is first supposed to contain the run, second supposed to contain the edge then lastly rush the passer, wheras the RDE is different. It differs based on different situation and playcalls.



That and that alone would account for some of the differences between how many times a RDE gets to the QB before a LDE does.
But I thought the LDE had to always withstand the beating received by lining up vs a TE and OT. One would think that would slow him down... unless that was just another excuse to try and explain one of your opinions.



b. I like the authors point about the RDE getting there first, in most cases. To tell the truth, he almost gets into my request in item a) above.
Could also have something to do with the fact that teams often put the best pass rusher in the RDE spot because that's usually the QB's blind side. Nah, couldn't have anything to do with that, LDE's aren't supposed to pass rush, that's the reason.


c. Two Free Agent DE's that most contend are the top two in this years class.....
Charles Johnson.....Games/48 Comb/114 Total/89 Asst/25 Sack.21.5
Ray Edwards.........Games/72 Comb/182 Total/139 Asst/43 Sack/29.5

Something to think about when you are wondering why in the hell other teams are looking at Ray.

I'm curious where you got the idea that nobody here thinks other teams want Ray.

They quite obviously do. More than we do probably.

Marrdro
06-28-2011, 07:09 PM
The issue is, most writers do not know exactly what their first, second and third responsibilities are. You do not know what they are, I do not know what they are. You can guess based on what you may have done in high school, what you may have read, etc. but different schemes call different plays that call for different assignments. It's foolish to believe on every single play, the LDE is first supposed to contain the run, second supposed to contain the edge then lastly rush the passer, wheras the RDE is different. It differs based on different situation and playcalls.
Of course it does my friend.

If I wasn't typing my opinion and was verbalizing in person to you, I would be able to wax poetic about the differences.

For this discussion, though, I would hope that the one reading my comment would take that little concept into account, just like there is a base read/react sequence by a defensive player when the offense is in what appears to be a base offensive set.

Of course, there is the other aspect of this, if one were reading someones elses opinion in a manner that was, say, a bit adversarial, then one would probably knit pick to a nats ass in the hopes of making a point.



But I thought the LDE had to always withstand the beating received by lining up vs a TE and OT. One would think that would slow him down... unless that was just another excuse to try and explain one of your opinions.
....sigh......another excuse. Why do I need excuses? This isn't something that is going to cause me to be thrown in jail or something.

Look my friend. In a base offensive set, a TE is there to help a LT just as in a the same base offense there might or might not be a RB help the RT out.

Both are designed to slow the pass rush or seal the edge based on the play.

As you said above, its situationally dependant and is germane for this opinion.


Could also have something to do with the fact that teams often put the best pass rusher in the RDE spot because that's usually the QB's blind side. Nah, couldn't have anything to do with that, LDE's aren't supposed to pass rush, that's the reason.
....sigh.....Please show me one place were I said the LDE doesn't rush the QB.

Not sure why I loose you on discussions like this.


I'm curious where you got the idea that nobody here thinks other teams want Ray.

They quite obviously do. More than we do probably.
Do you really want me to reply? I'll wait for my good friend Caine or, perhaps you could just go back a few pages and re-read some of the posts.

ejmat
06-28-2011, 07:19 PM
Dawson Devitt of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution considers whether soon-to-be UFA Ray Edwards would be a good fit for the Falcons. The main point against Edwards according to Devitt: Ray played on the same line with 3 Pro-Bowlers and still never managed double-digit sacks in any one season. The main point in Edwards’ favor: His physical gifts. And the fact that he would be lining up opposite Pro Bowler John Abraham, theoretically helping him to produce big numbers (cause that theory proved so true when Ray was lining up across from Jared Allen).

Ray Edwards to the Falcons? (http://thevikingage.com/2011/06/27/ray-edwards-to-the-falcons/)
I still marvel that the only thing most people use to measure a DE is the Sack Stat.

It was refreshing to read an article that talked about DE's not making it into Canton just on sack totals alone. Maybe the fans (and the author) will realize that the sack is cool, but it is only one part of the DE's job.
I agree it shouldn't always be measured by sack stats. I can't argue with that because it isn't the entire picture. All of those other stats you provide with pressures, hurries, knock downs, etc... should all be considered. At the same time the fact he did play next to 3 probowlers should be considered as well. Yes he does have the physical tools. Yes he is a decent player. What's left to be determined is can he take on the pressure of being the main guy? You a couple of others seem to think so. I and others don't think so.

At this time it's all speculation until it happens. We an only judge based upon what we see. Stats are not everything and my pioint with Ray is he should be able to have more sacks based on the fact he has played next to 3 pro bowl calibur DL that normally take on more of the load. The pressures, hurries and knoock downs would be better calculated by how much time elapses prior to the QB throwing the ball. Just becaue he gets those stats doesn't mean it was due because he was in the QBs face quickly.
A damn fine post. Just one followon discussion point/comment.

I am not so sure I agree with you when you say that I think he is ready to be the main guy. Remember, my feelings on Ray are more along the lines of I don't think the staff is going to pay him/retain him, because of his ability to make it through a long term contract (and the money that comes with it) at LDE.

I for one am willing to move on to Griff at LDE this year, because he is in fact a true LDE and not a RDE beefed up to play the spot.

Additionally, you will find comments from me saying that if I were a team that were to invest big money in him, I would make him slim back down 8lbs or so and move him back to RDE.

All the stuff that follows from that is amplifying discussions from people who say things like 8lbs isn't that much or he played LDE in college.
I apologize about the misrepresentation of your stance. Personally i wouldn't mind Ray staying if he'd just shut up and play ball. However, I do think there are better DEs out there and Ray is not as great as he thinks he is. He isn't worth the money he will be asking for if I were to judge by his comments over the past two years.

ejmat
06-28-2011, 07:23 PM
Here is a pretty article on Ray Edwards. I have to say I like how the authro looked at both sides of Ray Edwards. Pretty fair assessments if you ask me.

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-falcons-fans/2011/06/26/should-the-falcons-sign-de-ray-edwards/?cxntfid=blogs_atlanta_falcons_fans
Your correct that was a damn fine article. As always, a couple of comments though.....

a. The benchmark is still the sack totals. I would like it if one of these authors would for once, discuss the difference between a RDE and a LDE when it comes to their first, second and third read/react responsibilitites.

That and that alone would account for some of the differences between how many times a RDE gets to the QB before a LDE does.

b. I like the authors point about the RDE getting there first, in most cases. To tell the truth, he almost gets into my request in item a) above.

c. Two Free Agent DE's that most contend are the top two in this years class.....
Charles Johnson.....Games/48 Comb/114 Total/89 Asst/25 Sack.21.5
Ray Edwards.........Games/72 Comb/182 Total/139 Asst/43 Sack/29.5

Something to think about when you are wondering why in the hell other teams are looking at Ray.
I totally get why they are looking at Ray. He would be a good compliment to Abrahams. I also see why other teams may want to take a look at him. That was never the issue for me. For me it was I definitely think he puts his foot in his mouth by thinking he is a top tier DE. He isn't. He's a DE that had the benefit of working next to 3 pro bowl DL. IMO that is why his stats are like they are. However, if he is as good as he thinks he is I would imagine the stats would be even more impressive.

Marrdro
06-28-2011, 07:29 PM
Dawson Devitt of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution considers whether soon-to-be UFA Ray Edwards would be a good fit for the Falcons. The main point against Edwards according to Devitt: Ray played on the same line with 3 Pro-Bowlers and still never managed double-digit sacks in any one season. The main point in Edwards’ favor: His physical gifts. And the fact that he would be lining up opposite Pro Bowler John Abraham, theoretically helping him to produce big numbers (cause that theory proved so true when Ray was lining up across from Jared Allen).

Ray Edwards to the Falcons? (http://thevikingage.com/2011/06/27/ray-edwards-to-the-falcons/)
I still marvel that the only thing most people use to measure a DE is the Sack Stat.

It was refreshing to read an article that talked about DE's not making it into Canton just on sack totals alone. Maybe the fans (and the author) will realize that the sack is cool, but it is only one part of the DE's job.
I agree it shouldn't always be measured by sack stats. I can't argue with that because it isn't the entire picture. All of those other stats you provide with pressures, hurries, knock downs, etc... should all be considered. At the same time the fact he did play next to 3 probowlers should be considered as well. Yes he does have the physical tools. Yes he is a decent player. What's left to be determined is can he take on the pressure of being the main guy? You a couple of others seem to think so. I and others don't think so.

At this time it's all speculation until it happens. We an only judge based upon what we see. Stats are not everything and my pioint with Ray is he should be able to have more sacks based on the fact he has played next to 3 pro bowl calibur DL that normally take on more of the load. The pressures, hurries and knoock downs would be better calculated by how much time elapses prior to the QB throwing the ball. Just becaue he gets those stats doesn't mean it was due because he was in the QBs face quickly.
A damn fine post. Just one followon discussion point/comment.

I am not so sure I agree with you when you say that I think he is ready to be the main guy. Remember, my feelings on Ray are more along the lines of I don't think the staff is going to pay him/retain him, because of his ability to make it through a long term contract (and the money that comes with it) at LDE.

I for one am willing to move on to Griff at LDE this year, because he is in fact a true LDE and not a RDE beefed up to play the spot.

Additionally, you will find comments from me saying that if I were a team that were to invest big money in him, I would make him slim back down 8lbs or so and move him back to RDE.

All the stuff that follows from that is amplifying discussions from people who say things like 8lbs isn't that much or he played LDE in college.
I apologize about the misrepresentation of your stance. Personally i wouldn't mind Ray staying if he'd just shut up and play ball. However, I do think there are better DEs out there and Ray is not as great as he thinks he is. He isn't worth the money he will be asking for if I were to judge by his comments over the past two years.
No problem my friend. Its a discussion site.

I, for one, think that guy is already on the roster and his name is Griff.

We didn't see much of him last year, but towards the end, when Pagac was calling the shots, we saw enough of him to make me want to see more.

The couple of times I saw him (RDE) and Guion (3/5 Tech) next to each other really opened my eyes. ;)

jargomcfargo
06-28-2011, 07:43 PM
I saw Jared Allen one on one most of last year. He was slow to get started but eventually got his sacks.

Not using sacks as the end all stat here but it does give some reference to pressure that is based on fact, a sack is a sack, as opposed to QB hurries which is subective to the point of questionable meaning.

The Williams wall had one sack last season;ONE!
Pat had zero and Kevin got his sole sack against Miami early in the season.

In addition, in 2 games against Green Bay, Kevin had one solo tackle and one assist.

He also had two games with total goose egg stats across the board last season. No tackles, assists, or sacks.

Was the wall shut down because of double teams or because of age and or injury?

KW had a knee surgery 4 months ago and Pat had triceps surgery for a tear.

Just to play devils advocate, I'm not sure the Williams wall presented enough of a threat to free up Ray considerably.

And Ray mostly had one on one blocking but still managed to play the run well as well as get the second most sacks of from a left end in the NFC.

I don't think the Vikings want to keep Ray. I'm curious as to why.

Marrdro
06-28-2011, 07:48 PM
I saw Jared Allen one on one most of last year. He was slow to get started but eventually got his sacks.

Not using sacks as the end all stat here but it does give some reference to pressure that is based on fact, a sack is a sack, as opposed to QB hurries which is subective to the point of questionable meaning.

The Williams wall had one sack last season;ONE!
Pat had zero and Kevin got his sole sack against Miami early in the season.

In addition, in 2 games against Green Bay, Kevin had one solo tackle and one assist.

He also had two games with total goose egg stats across the board last season. No tackles, assists, or sacks.

Was the wall shut down because of double teams or because of age and or injury?

KW had a knee surgery 4 months ago and Pat had triceps surgery for a tear.

Just to play devils advocate, I'm not sure the Williams wall presented enough of a threat to free up Ray considerably.

And Ray mostly had one on one blocking but still managed to play the run well as well as get the second most sacks of from a left end in the NFC.


Another fine post.

Again, I'm not saying Ray is that great, but your points hammer home what I've been trying to say for along time. Our DL isn't what most think it is. Does it have 3 guys who made the probowl on it? Sure, but are they really playing to that level?


I don't think the Vikings want to keep Ray. I'm curious as to why.
I've wracked my pea brain over this alot. Again, the only thing I can come up with is that they believe he won't make it through the life of a contract at LDE.

If that is the case, that contract will be a big one that involves some significant "Gaurantees" associated with it.

In the end, they (IMHO) are gambling that he won't play another 2 years and his knee(s) will give out and they don't want to be left holding the bag of paying him while he rehabs.

Only thing that makes sense, atleast to me.

i_bleed_purple
06-28-2011, 07:59 PM
In the end, they (IMHO) are gambling that he won't play another 2 years and his knee(s) will give out and they don't want to be left holding the bag of paying him while he rehabs.

Only thing that makes sense, atleast to me.

Orr... you know, they're tired of his attitude, and for the level of talent he has to offer, he's simply worn out his welcome.

There are guys who can run their mouth an it gets overlooked. Moss in his prime said whatever he wanted, and teams still wanted him.

Edwards is no Randy Moss. I bet if he shut his mouth and played as he's been playing, he'll get a good contract, and the Vikes would lvoe to have him back.

AngloVike
06-28-2011, 08:12 PM
Again, I'm not saying Ray is that great, but your points hammer home what I've been trying to say for along time. Our DL isn't what most think it is. Does it have 3 guys who made the probowl on it? Sure, but are they really playing to that level?


I don't think the Vikings want to keep Ray. I'm curious as to why.
I've wracked my pea brain over this alot. Again, the only thing I can come up with is that they believe he won't make it through the life of a contract at LDE.

If that is the case, that contract will be a big one that involves some significant "Gaurantees" associated with it.

In the end, they (IMHO) are gambling that he won't play another 2 years and his knee(s) will give out and they don't want to be left holding the bag of paying him while he rehabs.

Only thing that makes sense, atleast to me.

The one thing is does show is that everyone on the DL has to perform in order to help each other. Last year PWill & KWill weren't at the best which did impact on the DEs especially, which is when you see how good they are. JA played well but was down on the previous year but I don't think Edwards showed enough of that little 'extra' that you expect = especially when they are looking for elite money.

I think that the issue is not so much that his knees won't hold up for the length of the contract, more that he won't show the production expected for the money Edwards feels he warrants.

Marrdro
06-28-2011, 08:24 PM
In the end, they (IMHO) are gambling that he won't play another 2 years and his knee(s) will give out and they don't want to be left holding the bag of paying him while he rehabs.

Only thing that makes sense, atleast to me.

Orr... you know, they're tired of his attitude, and for the level of talent he has to offer, he's simply worn out his welcome.

There are guys who can run their mouth an it gets overlooked. Moss in his prime said whatever he wanted, and teams still wanted him.

Edwards is no Randy Moss. I bet if he shut his mouth and played as he's been playing, he'll get a good contract, and the Vikes would lvoe to have him back.
I hear ya my friend, but I don't think that what a player says really has that much to do with it. If you really look at his comments, much of what he has said has been said by other players and possibly even worse and those players aren't stars either.

His talent and ability to use that talent on the field is what will drive a contract. Same things goes with Rice. He and his agent can yap all they want. Its whether or not he can play a full season that will drive his contract.

In short, if either of them wouldn't have had digns (or got caught using roids to cover up dings) both would have been resigned by now.

delviking
06-28-2011, 08:45 PM
Its most likely a combo of all the theories we talked about

Has he ran his mouth to much probably and hes definatly not made a lot of friends among the fan base.

will his body hold up Id say maybe depending on genetics some people can carry more weight than some.

Last year He could have given a little extra to help out our struggling D line and he didnt do it. (though Allen should never be allowed to cut his hair ever again! lol)

Marrdro
06-28-2011, 08:49 PM
Its most likely a combo of all the theories we talked about

Has he ran his mouth to much probably and hes definatly not made a lot of friends among the fan base.

will his body hold up Id say maybe depending on genetics some people can carry more weight than some.

Last year He could have given a little extra to help out our struggling D line and he didnt do it. (though Allen should never be allowed to cut his hair ever again! lol)
Good stuff my friend.

I often wonder how much the fan base really does have a say in when cats like Ray are being considered.

Kindof tracks along the lines of the role of our Public Relations dept. Does the staff ask them for an input?

Glad to see your avatar again by the way. Hope all is well. B)

ejmat
06-29-2011, 06:20 PM
Article from PFT

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/29/robison-on-ray-edwards-hell-go-get-his-payday-and-well-all-be-happy/

Marrdro
06-29-2011, 06:27 PM
Article from PFT

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/29/robison-on-ray-edwards-hell-go-get-his-payday-and-well-all-be-happy/
Actually post one like that in its own thread. Probably could have put it in here like you did.