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Marrdro
02-17-2011, 03:16 AM
NFL Network: Shiancoe Talks Favre, More (http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/videos/NFL-Network-Shiancoe-Talks-Favre-More/f47bd94f-47c5-472a-a165-4f3c55ab6877)
Damn firewall. Someone watch this and tell me what he says. If not, I will catch it at home.

Marrdro
02-17-2011, 03:17 AM
Shiancoe spills beans about Favre (http://www.nfl.com/videos/minnesota-vikings/09000d5d81e583be/Shiancoe-spills-beans-about-Favre)

Purple Floyd
02-17-2011, 03:18 AM
NFL Network: Shiancoe Talks Favre, More (http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/videos/NFL-Network-Shiancoe-Talks-Favre-More/f47bd94f-47c5-472a-a165-4f3c55ab6877)
Damn firewall. Someone watch this and tell me what he says. If not, I will catch it at home.

In a nutshell he said Childress sucks and TJ should have never been handed the starting Qb job without a competent veteran to challenge him.:evil:

Marrdro
02-17-2011, 03:22 AM
NFL Network: Shiancoe Talks Favre, More (http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/videos/NFL-Network-Shiancoe-Talks-Favre-More/f47bd94f-47c5-472a-a165-4f3c55ab6877)
Damn firewall. Someone watch this and tell me what he says. If not, I will catch it at home.

In a nutshell he said Childress sucks and TJ should have never been handed the starting Qb job without a competent veteran to challenge him.:evil:
LOL.

Purple Floyd
02-17-2011, 03:25 AM
Actually he didn't mention TJ at all but he did give Webb a pretty good endorsement.

Marrdro
02-17-2011, 03:26 AM
Actually he didn't mention TJ at all but he did give Webb a pretty good endorsement.
I hope the Vikes extend Shanc. We need his "character"/"Attitude" on the field.

Mr Anderson
02-17-2011, 03:32 AM
Taking notes as I go:

Lack of fundamentals. "Good teams start from the bottom up." Got away from what we're good at.

Favre not really a distraction, but contributed to the totality of the distractions. Favre/training camp laid the foundation for the week to week - Favre, Moss, Chilly, the stadium etc.

Favre's a prankster.

Hard to not have a real homefield advantage, but thinks the league and organization did a good job of transitioning.

Thinks Frazier has a good feel for what the team thinks and feels. Thinks having a guy who's played before makes a big difference especially when camp rolls around.

If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

Marrdro
02-17-2011, 03:37 AM
Taking notes as I go:

Lack of fundamentals. "Good teams start from the bottom up." Got away from what we're good at.

Favre not really a distraction, but contributed to the totality of the distractions. Favre/training camp laid the foundation for the week to week - Favre, Moss, Chilly, the stadium etc.

Favre's a prankster.

Hard to not have a real homefield advantage, but thinks the league and organization did a good job of transitioning.

Thinks Frazier has a good feel for what the team thinks and feels. Thinks having a guy who's played before makes a big difference especially when camp rolls around.

If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.
Thanks my friend.

The last point is a good one. I really think thats what hurt TJ the most was that he really never (except for the first year with Brad) had a Qb that could run the scheme the way the Chiller wanted it run.

In 2009 the Noodle fixed that. With respect to Webb, I just don't see anybody out there that can be that guy. Hopefully Joe watched the Noodle and the staff can use the tape they have from the 2009 season as a primary learning aid.

Purple Floyd
02-17-2011, 04:00 AM
I really think thats what hurt TJ the most was that he really never (except for the first year with Brad) had a Qb that could run the scheme the way the Chiller wanted it run.

.

I know this is going to be hard to get your head around but sometimes in a fluid league with finite time and resources it becomes helpful to run the scheme in a way that compliments your QB's abilities rather than forcing them to conform to some wet dream you came up with in the 3rd stall of the locker room.

Marrdro
02-17-2011, 04:44 AM
I really think thats what hurt TJ the most was that he really never (except for the first year with Brad) had a Qb that could run the scheme the way the Chiller wanted it run.

.

I know this is going to be hard to get your head around but sometimes in a fluid league with finite time and resources it becomes helpful to run the scheme in a way that compliments your QB's abilities rather than forcing them to conform to some wet dream you came up with in the 3rd stall of the locker room.
You sure have been a bit insulting lately with your replies. No worries, I will over look it, again.

Anyway, the bigger question then begs, why do you have a QB on your roster who's abilities don't fit the scheme?

Absolutely makes no sense that the staff would go out and bring a guy in who didn't fit the scheme. That would mean that (say you have 25 players on offense and the other 24 do fit the scheme) 24 players would have to change to accomodate 1.

Yup, your right, thats pretty hard for me to get my head around. Probably cause it makes no sense.

i_bleed_purple
02-17-2011, 05:47 AM
I really think thats what hurt TJ the most was that he really never (except for the first year with Brad) had a Qb that could run the scheme the way the Chiller wanted it run.

.

I know this is going to be hard to get your head around but sometimes in a fluid league with finite time and resources it becomes helpful to run the scheme in a way that compliments your QB's abilities rather than forcing them to conform to some wet dream you came up with in the 3rd stall of the locker room.
You sure have been a bit insulting lately with your replies. No worries, I will over look it, again.

Anyway, the bigger question then begs, why do you have a QB on your roster who's abilities don't fit the scheme?

Absolutely makes no sense that the staff would go out and bring a guy in who didn't fit the scheme. That would mean that (say you have 25 players on offense and the other 24 do fit the scheme) 24 players would have to change to accomodate 1.

Yup, your right, thats pretty hard for me to get my head around. Probably cause it makes no sense.

yes, because our offensive scheme fit the rest of our players so well [/sarcasm]

Towards the end of the season, only one player really fit our scheme. That player was Tahi, because his ass was firmly planted on the bench, just what the plays call for.

If we had ran that O earlier in the season I'm confident we'd have won the superbowl

but seriously, I can name many ways our O players did not fit our scheme called

1: timing routes with Berrian. he's just not that kind of player
2: harvin as an outside receiver, see 1)
3: Zone blocking with slow fat linemen
4: Gerhart as a 3rd down/receiving back
5: Peterson not being used in the short outside passing game
6: Using guys like berrian, Lewis, in the slot over Camarillo

Those are some that come to mind off the top of my head. There are others.

Chilly has been forcing the square peg into the round hole too long. With a healthy Favre, we were able to overcome, and take advantages of mismatches. This season, our WR/QB/OL got hit with injuries, and rather than adapting, we kept forcing that square peg in a hole it has no business being in.

Marrdro
02-17-2011, 06:02 AM
1: timing routes with Berrian. he's just not that kind of player

And yet he led the NFC in yards per catch in 2008.


2: harvin as an outside receiver, see 1)
I will agree to a point, however, based on injuries, you do have to move people around.


3: Zone blocking with slow fat linemen
How quickly you forget the 40 times for our OLmen. Besides, the ZBing scheme is designed to support the running game. To date, we have had pretty good luck running the ball, starting with CT in 2006.


4: Gerhart as a 3rd down/receiving back
What? You need to look at his stats and then compare them to what CT did with the Bores, on a offense that is designed to maximize the RB in that area.


5: Peterson not being used in the short outside passing game
Not sure what you mean here? He wasn't used much in the passing game at all because he couldn't pick up the blitzers and couldn't get into the right area in screens.

He did, however, this year seem to do pretty good in the short passing stuff. Put up some pretty good stats. Again, not sure what you mean.


6: Using guys like berrian, Lewis, in the slot over Camarillo
Again, not sure what you mean here. You watch what the Pats do with their receivers? You could almost say something like splittin TE's out wide as well, but you will still have me scratching my slightly balding head. All teams do it. The Pats are just the best example.

midgensa
02-17-2011, 06:07 AM
Seriously ... would you quit with the "led in yards per catch in 2008" thing.

First off ... that was 2008 ... second off ... you are wrong. Devery Henderson led the NFL (and NFC) in yards per catch in 2008.

Funny how Favre's 2009 does not matter at all in any argument, but you continually defend Berrian based on his 2008.

Marrdro
02-17-2011, 06:11 AM
Seriously ... would you quit with the "led in yards per catch in 2008" thing.

First off ... that was 2008 ... second off ... you are wrong. Devery Henderson led the NFL (and NFC) in yards per catch in 2008.

Funny how Favre's 2009 does not matter at all in any argument, but you continually defend Berrian based on his 2008.
Alright, I distinctly remember you correcting me on the NFL thing. If my memory is correct, he lead the NFC, but I will go back and recheck. Something like 20.9 yards per catch if memory servers.

(EDIT. It was 20.1 and he was second. Big fricken deal. He still had a nice year and the point still stands) :P

And why should I bring the Noodle into the discussion? He and Berrian never clicked. Berrian has clicked with every other QB he has played with.

You tell me why he and the Noodle couldn't? You already know what my answer is gonna be.

i_bleed_purple
02-17-2011, 06:18 AM
1: timing routes with Berrian. he's just not that kind of player

And yet he led the NFC in yards per catch in 2008.
We used him properly then for some reason. Now we don't. Do you not think we've been using him very differently the past two years than we did in 08?



2: harvin as an outside receiver, see 1)
I will agree to a point, however, based on injuries, you do have to move people around.
Lewis and berrian are better fits for outside receivers than harvin. in a 2 receiver set, yes, keep Harvin out there, but we saw Harvin playing as an x or z, rather than his usual Y spot.



3: Zone blocking with slow fat linemen
How quickly you forget the 40 times for our OLmen. Besides, the ZBing scheme is designed to support the running game. To date, we have had pretty good luck running the ball, starting with CT in 2006.
hmm.... how quickly I forget 40 times of linemen. I'll be quite honest, and say I don't know any 40 times of our linemen. Actually, now that I think of it, I can't think of too many plays that call for our OL to run 40 yards downfield. However, what I do recall is seeing our line, specifically both tackles, getting manhandled by fast DE's because they can't get out of a stance and into position fast enough. I also see them miss blocks because they can't move into position quick enough. There's a reason the ZB scheme generally calls for smaller quicker linemen. They need to be quick. Big guys aren't usually as quick. If we had big strong guys who are some of the QUICKest (note, not fastest) linemen in the league, we'd have the best line (ps. we don't). Chilly thinks he's an offensive mastermind and can take an established scheme and turn it upside down and make it work, when in fact, he can't.



4: Gerhart as a 3rd down/receiving back
What? You need to look at his stats and then compare them to what CT did with the Bores, on a offense that is designed to maximize the RB in that area.
Why would I compare him to to CT"s production with the Bears? Why not compare with his production the past two years as a Viking? One would think comparing within the same offense would provide for the best comparison.

so here it is:
Gerhart: 21 rec. 167 yards, 8.0ypr 0 TD
Taylor(10): 20 rec. 139 yards, 7.0ypr 0 TD
Taylor(09): 44 rec. 389 yards, 8.8ypr 1 TD
Taylor(08): 45 rec. 399 yards, 8.9ypr 2 TD
Taylor(07): 29 rec. 291 yards, 9.7ypr 0 TD

So what exactly is your point? That Taylor was much better as a 3rd down/receiving back because his skillset matched what was needed much better than a mediocre powerback who's slower than Favre with two broken ankles? Yeah, I could see that point. Wait, that wasn't your point, it was mine? You don't say....




5: Peterson not being used in the short outside passing game
Not sure what you mean here? He wasn't used much in the passing game at all because he couldn't pick up the blitzers and couldn't get into the right area in screens.[/qoute]

When we run swing passes with Peterson, I see more often than not it works well. Why? Because get him in space with DB's trying to tackle him, and he wins. We used him a bunch in the passing game, but alot was passes within 10 yards of the tackle box. I won't comment on the screens, because I honestly haven't noticed that part much


He did, however, this year seem to do pretty good in the short passing stuff. Put up some pretty good stats. Again, not sure what you mean.
I mean type of passes. Yes, he had some decent games, and he put up decent stats. They could have been much better. on 3rd and long, he's a much better option than Gerhart. especially if we plan on putting him out on a route.


[quote]6: Using guys like berrian, Lewis, in the slot over Camarillo
Again, not sure what you mean here. You watch what the Pats do with their receivers? You could almost say something like splittin TE's out wide as well, but you will still have me scratching my slightly balding head. All teams do it. The Pats are just the best example.

Yes, and we are not the Pats. Camarillio has been a slot receiver. Only a slot receiver. we play him on the outside and he gets nothing. The pats make it work because they have talented players who can play multiple positions. we don't. It's that simple. They can change their fronts, have complex schemes, etc. Both Favre and now Shiancoe have said we needed to go back to the basics, and learn to do that well, as we were failing hard in that department.

Marrdro
02-17-2011, 06:41 AM
We used him properly then for some reason. Now we don't. Do you not think we've been using him very differently the past two years than we did in 08?

No we haven't been using him differently. Again, you know my answer on this. I'm not gonna tell you about the Noodles Noodle anymore. I'm tired of it.

Suffice it to say, he has had a nice average with every other QB he's played with but one. You go figure it out.

I for one don't want to keep talking about his limparmed ass anymore.


Lewis and berrian are better fits for outside receivers than harvin. in a 2 receiver set, yes, keep Harvin out there, but we saw Harvin playing as an x or z, rather than his usual Y spot.
I'm impressed. Finally got you off that 1, 2 and 3 shit. Again, all teams move their guys around. Not worth discussing as it doesn't fit what your trying to say.


hmm.... how quickly I forget 40 times of linemen. I'll be quite honest, and say I don't know any 40 times of our linemen. Actually, now that I think of it, I can't think of too many plays that call for our OL to run 40 yards downfield. However, what I do recall is seeing our line, specifically both tackles, getting manhandled by fast DE's because they can't get out of a stance and into position fast enough. I also see them miss blocks because they can't move into position quick enough. There's a reason the ZB scheme generally calls for smaller quicker linemen. They need to be quick. Big guys aren't usually as quick. If we had big strong guys who are some of the QUICKest (note, not fastest) linemen in the league, we'd have the best line (ps. we don't). Chilly thinks he's an offensive mastermind and can take an established scheme and turn it upside down and make it work, when in fact, he can't.
You don't have to remember their times, you just need to remember the damn good threads (two of them) that were written by Mr. A and I a couple of years ago.

As to watching our Olmen get beat, it has nothing to do with them being slow or fast. All OLmen get beat. All of them, regardless of how fast or slow they are, thats why TE's, FB's and RB's are assigned to help them block.

The ZBing scheme has worked for us the whole time it has been employed. What you seem to fail to make the difference on is when those guys are getting beat, in almost all instance it is when they are pass protecting. Again they are not in the ZB'ing scheme then. They are in the type of blocking scheme we are gonna run all the time next year.

Talk about a coach trying to fit square pegs in a round hole. Now we are gonna quit doing what has made our running game successful (along with AD and CT) and use just the part of the scheme that we suck at.


Why would I compare him to to CT"s production with the Bears? Why not compare with his production the past two years as a Viking? One would think comparing within the same offense would provide for the best comparison.

so here it is:
Gerhart: 21 rec. 167 yards, 8.0ypr 0 TD
Taylor(10): 20 rec. 139 yards, 7.0ypr 0 TD
Taylor(09): 44 rec. 389 yards, 8.8ypr 1 TD
Taylor(08): 45 rec. 399 yards, 8.9ypr 2 TD
Taylor(07): 29 rec. 291 yards, 9.7ypr 0 TD

So what exactly is your point? That Taylor was much better as a 3rd down/receiving back because his skillset matched what was needed much better than a mediocre powerback who's slower than Favre with two broken ankles? Yeah, I could see that point. Wait, that wasn't your point, it was mine? You don't say....

Why look at what he did two years ago with us. You need to look at what he did this year. Isn't that what we are comparing. One player vs another player in the given year.

Hell, it doesn't make any damn sense to compare a seasoned Vet when he was in his prime from back in the day vs a rook who is just learning.

Everything after you tried to do that was just basically data dumped, including the joke you tried to make at the end as it doesn't apply.

Again, Toby did better this year than CT did in the same role. How is that trying to fit a square peg into a round hole?


When we run swing passes with Peterson, I see more often than not it works well. Why? Because get him in space with DB's trying to tackle him, and he wins. We used him a bunch in the passing game, but alot was passes within 10 yards of the tackle box. I won't comment on the screens, because I honestly haven't noticed that part much

Thats because AD wasn't very successfull running screens. When he could get to the right spot, he was devastating. Hell, he even scored TD's out of the. One of his first TD's was a screen play. Problem was, he couldn't execute them. Thats why the staff didn't run them much with him in there.

Kindof flies in the face of your peg theory as in this instance, they didn't try to fit a square peg in a round hole.



Yes, and we are not the Pats. Camarillio has been a slot receiver. Only a slot receiver. we play him on the outside and he gets nothing. The pats make it work because they have talented players who can play multiple positions. we don't. It's that simple. They can change their fronts, have complex schemes, etc. Both Favre and now Shiancoe have said we needed to go back to the basics, and learn to do that well, as we were failing hard in that department.
Or do they have a QB who can hit the receiver when he is open.

Look, running a 5 route from the slot is still a 5 route when you are split wide, in fact it should be easier cause you are battling a small CB and no traffic, instead of a strong LB and possibly a S in the box.

As I said earlier, can we please stop trying to get me going on the Noodle. I really really really am sick and tired of talking about him.

In the end, Cam can be split wide. They did it with him in the Phins and he had a worse QB. Lewis's great TD catch from you know who came when he was split out wide.

Your discussion point that the Chiller put the WR's in roles they didn't fit is absolutely crazy talk and you know it. ;)

i_bleed_purple
02-17-2011, 07:05 AM
We used him properly then for some reason. Now we don't. Do you not think we've been using him very differently the past two years than we did in 08?

No we haven't been using him differently. Again, you know my answer on this. I'm not gonna tell you about the Noodles Noodle anymore. I'm tired of it.

Suffice it to say, he has had a nice average with every other QB he's played with but one. You go figure it out.

I for one don't want to keep talking about his limparmed ass anymore.

You're the one who brought Favre into this, not me.

Your argument is bull anyway. You say he did better with every other QB, but then again, he played a different style of play in a Harvin/Riceless offense prior to Favre as well. They play him differently. We see alot more timing based routes, ins, outs, hooks, comebacks, etc. in 08, we saw him do exceptionally well on slants and seams. Those were his two routes, but that's not what we saw the past couple years. Harvin took a bunch of those plays away from him, as did Rice.



Lewis and berrian are better fits for outside receivers than harvin. in a 2 receiver set, yes, keep Harvin out there, but we saw Harvin playing as an x or z, rather than his usual Y spot.
I'm impressed. Finally got you off that 1, 2 and 3 shit. Again, all teams move their guys around. Not worth discussing as it doesn't fit what your trying to say.
Because 1,2,3 isn't a position, it's a type of receiver. but I'm not going to keep going on about that.




hmm.... how quickly I forget 40 times of linemen. I'll be quite honest, and say I don't know any 40 times of our linemen. Actually, now that I think of it, I can't think of too many plays that call for our OL to run 40 yards downfield. However, what I do recall is seeing our line, specifically both tackles, getting manhandled by fast DE's because they can't get out of a stance and into position fast enough. I also see them miss blocks because they can't move into position quick enough. There's a reason the ZB scheme generally calls for smaller quicker linemen. They need to be quick. Big guys aren't usually as quick. If we had big strong guys who are some of the QUICKest (note, not fastest) linemen in the league, we'd have the best line (ps. we don't). Chilly thinks he's an offensive mastermind and can take an established scheme and turn it upside down and make it work, when in fact, he can't.
You don't have to remember their times, you just need to remember the damn good threads (two of them) that were written by Mr. A and I a couple of years ago.

As to watching our Olmen get beat, it has nothing to do with them being slow or fast. All OLmen get beat. All of them, regardless of how fast or slow they are, thats why TE's, FB's and RB's are assigned to help them block.

The ZBing scheme has worked for us the whole time it has been employed. What you seem to fail to make the difference on is when those guys are getting beat, in almost all instance it is when they are pass protecting. Again they are not in the ZB'ing scheme then. They are in the type of blocking scheme we are gonna run all the time next year.
Right, so Ap running into a wall of defenders every play isn't run blocking? That isn't poor zone blocking execution? The problem with the ZB scheme, as pointed out by Mr. A as well, is that if one guy misses, the whole line misses. everyone gets out of position, then we need to rely on Peterson to do it all. I saw somewhere, I don't have a link, but Peterson led the league in yards after contact? Or was damn high up there. Why? Because he keeps getting hit in the backfield or within a yard of the LOS.


Talk about a coach trying to fit square pegs in a round hole. Now we are gonna quit doing what has made our running game successful (along with AD and CT) and use just the part of the scheme that we suck at.
Man Pass blocking is much, much different than man run blocking. To claim because we suck at pass blocking, we will suck at run blocking using a man scheme indicates you either don't understand line play, or just are arguing for the sake of arguing something. I suspect it's the latter



Why would I compare him to to CT"s production with the Bears? Why not compare with his production the past two years as a Viking? One would think comparing within the same offense would provide for the best comparison.

so here it is:
Gerhart: 21 rec. 167 yards, 8.0ypr 0 TD
Taylor(10): 20 rec. 139 yards, 7.0ypr 0 TD
Taylor(09): 44 rec. 389 yards, 8.8ypr 1 TD
Taylor(08): 45 rec. 399 yards, 8.9ypr 2 TD
Taylor(07): 29 rec. 291 yards, 9.7ypr 0 TD

So what exactly is your point? That Taylor was much better as a 3rd down/receiving back because his skillset matched what was needed much better than a mediocre powerback who's slower than Favre with two broken ankles? Yeah, I could see that point. Wait, that wasn't your point, it was mine? You don't say....

Why look at what he did two years ago with us. You need to look at what he did this year. Isn't that what we are comparing. One player vs another player in the given year. No. I could compare Berrian to Rice and come to the conclusion Berrian is a better player based on that logic. You compare using the best method to fairly compare a guy. Comparing a player to a guy in an entirely different scheme used an entirely different way will not provide a valid comparason. Hell, culpepper had a hell of a season, he should be our QB. I mean, it's all about comparing a player with another player at a given point in time right?


Hell, it doesn't make any damn sense to compare a seasoned Vet when he was in his prime from back in the day vs a rook who is just learning.
Sure it does. It's showing a guy with the right skillset can be much better than a guy doing something he's not used to and not designed to do. That's why I want to see more of Booker and less Gerhart. Gerhart has his time and place, but 3rd and long is not it.



Everything after you tried to do that was just basically data dumped, including the joke you tried to make at the end as it doesn't apply.
ah, because you don't like it, then it doesn't apply


Again, Toby did better this year than CT did in the same role. How is that trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? Hmm... two different teams, with two different players. yeah, that's the same role. I'd say the fact he did significantly better here, then dropped off with the Bears would indicate something is much different. I'd say the fact he did well here, while Gerhart didn't would indicate something is wrong. Gerhart was not a pass catcher in College, why do you think he'd all of a sudden be successful at it here in the Pros? We had the same deal with Peterson, he was never much of a receiver in OU, that's why we had Taylor.



When we run swing passes with Peterson, I see more often than not it works well. Why? Because get him in space with DB's trying to tackle him, and he wins. We used him a bunch in the passing game, but alot was passes within 10 yards of the tackle box. I won't comment on the screens, because I honestly haven't noticed that part much

Thats because AD wasn't very successfull running screens. When he could get to the right spot, he was devastating. Hell, he even scored TD's out of the. One of his first TD's was a screen play. Problem was, he couldn't execute them. Thats why the staff didn't run them much with him in there.
Umm, no, his first TD was not a screen play. It was a swing pass.


Kindof flies in the face of your peg theory as in this instance, they didn't try to fit a square peg in a round hole. whatever you say




Yes, and we are not the Pats. Camarillio has been a slot receiver. Only a slot receiver. we play him on the outside and he gets nothing. The pats make it work because they have talented players who can play multiple positions. we don't. It's that simple. They can change their fronts, have complex schemes, etc. Both Favre and now Shiancoe have said we needed to go back to the basics, and learn to do that well, as we were failing hard in that department.
Or do they have a QB who can hit the receiver when he is open. Valid point.


Look, running a 5 route from the slot is still a 5 route when you are split wide, in fact it should be easier cause you are battling a small CB and no traffic, instead of a strong LB and possibly a S in the box.
Are you trying to tell me that a receiver should be able to play either position just the same? History would prove you wrong. If not, what's your point? Arguing just to argue again?


As I said earlier, can we please stop trying to get me going on the Noodle. I really really really am sick and tired of talking about him.
That's twice now you've tried to bring him up, I haven't said a word


In the end, Cam can be split wide. They did it with him in the Phins and he had a worse QB. Lewis's great TD catch from you know who came when he was split out wide.

Your discussion point that the Chiller put the WR's in roles they didn't fit is absolutely crazy talk and you know it. ;)

Ah, so Harvin should be played from the wideout position? It won't make a difference? There's a reason guys get labeled as a slot receiver. Because they're better at it. The positions aren't the same. Some guys excel on the outside, some on the inside. Some can do anything (true #1's ;) ). Your discussion point stating otherwise is absolutely crazy talk and you know it

Marrdro
02-17-2011, 07:31 AM
Right, so Ap running into a wall of defenders every play isn't run blocking? That isn't poor zone blocking execution? The problem with the ZB scheme, as pointed out by Mr. A as well, is that if one guy misses, the whole line misses. everyone gets out of position, then we need to rely on Peterson to do it all. I saw somewhere, I don't have a link, but Peterson led the league in yards after contact? Or was damn high up there. Why? Because he keeps getting hit in the backfield or within a yard of the LOS.

You make me work harder answering your quotes that Purple Floyd does. I am gonna give you the nickname Quote instead of him. :laugh:

AD running into a wall of defenders is a good point, but in alof of instances it was his fault as well. Lets not forget the video of Theenimy coaching him "Tuff Love" on the NFL Network channel.

Theenimy (and AD) both admitted that he wasn't patient and in most instances, his first two steps didn't set up the blocks the way they should causing the blog you refer to as a wall.

The OL did mess up. Some of that was poor execution on their part, some of it was poor execution on AD's part and some of it was just good execution on the defenses part.

In the end, you don't have the rushing yards like we've had since the ZB scheme was installed and the production out of our backup backs without someone doing their job blocking.


No. I could compare Berrian to Rice and come to the conclusion Berrian is a better player based on that logic. You compare using the best method to fairly compare a guy. Comparing a player to a guy in an entirely different scheme used an entirely different way will not provide a valid comparason. Hell, culpepper had a hell of a season, he should be our QB. I mean, it's all about comparing a player with another player at a given point in time right?

What? How does that have anything to do with putting Toby out there in 3rd down situations?

You said he didn't work. I used CT, a third down back, in a offense that is designed for the back as an example that he did just fine in that role.

Mark my words, you are gonna like you some Toby before his career is over.

I think your just hung up on his size, like you are the OLmen, believing that he is slow, when in fact he is 1/10th of a second slower than AD in his forty times.


Sure it does. It's showing a guy with the right skillset can be much better than a guy doing something he's not used to and not designed to do. That's why I want to see more of Booker and less Gerhart. Gerhart has his time and place, but 3rd and long is not it.

Why?

He had 5 attempts in situations were he needed to get 10+ yards and avg 13.4 yards (AD had 18.3) in those attempts. 3rd and long he avg 7.8 yards (AD had 6.5 yds)

Is he AD? Hell no. But for a rook with limited touches, he did fine. With some offseason work, his numbers should only go up.


Hmm... two different teams, with two different players. yeah, that's the same role. I'd say the fact he did significantly better here, then dropped off with the Bears would indicate something is much different. I'd say the fact he did well here, while Gerhart didn't would indicate something is wrong. Gerhart was not a pass catcher in College, why do you think he'd all of a sudden be successful at it here in the Pros? We had the same deal with Peterson, he was never much of a receiver in OU, that's why we had Taylor.

I didn't say I expected him to excel at it coming out of college. Again, twisting my words. Go check my stuff on him this year, you will see that I was very surprised when he did well at it.



Umm, no, his first TD was not a screen play. It was a swing pass.

When you gonna learn. I didn't say first. I said one of his first.

I can tell you this, I think you and I wouldn't have anything to talk about if you actually read what I typed. Boy would these night shifts be boring. LOL :P



Are you trying to tell me that a receiver should be able to play either position just the same? History would prove you wrong. If not, what's your point? Arguing just to argue again?

Nope, not what I'm saying. I am saying that a guy who can run a 5 route out of the slot should be able to run the same route out of another position.


Ah, so Harvin should be played from the wideout position? It won't make a difference? There's a reason guys get labeled as a slot receiver. Because they're better at it. The positions aren't the same. Some guys excel on the outside, some on the inside. Some can do anything (true #1's ;) ). Your discussion point stating otherwise is absolutely crazy talk and you know it
What I know is your just mixing apples and oranges.

Of course a guy is better in one position than another. Doesn't mean he can't shift.

Hell, your one of the biggest for asking to see things like 2 RB's in the backfield. Isn't that asking them to do something that is out of their comfort level?

V4L
02-17-2011, 04:02 PM
Adrian Peterson has scored 2 recieving TDS in his career

1 was a swing pass in his rookie season

Other was this year

"one of his first TDs was a screen" is not true

Purple Floyd
02-17-2011, 04:21 PM
We used him properly then for some reason. Now we don't. Do you not think we've been using him very differently the past two years than we did in 08?

No we haven't been using him differently. Again, you know my answer on this. I'm not gonna tell you about the Noodles Noodle anymore. I'm tired of it.

Suffice it to say, he has had a nice average with every other QB he's played with but one. You go figure it out.

I for one don't want to keep talking about his limparmed ass anymore.

You're the one who brought Favre into this, not me.

Your argument is bull anyway. You say he did better with every other QB, but then again, he played a different style of play in a Harvin/Riceless offense prior to Favre as well. They play him differently. We see alot more timing based routes, ins, outs, hooks, comebacks, etc. in 08, we saw him do exceptionally well on slants and seams. Those were his two routes, but that's not what we saw the past couple years. Harvin took a bunch of those plays away from him, as did Rice.



Lewis and berrian are better fits for outside receivers than harvin. in a 2 receiver set, yes, keep Harvin out there, but we saw Harvin playing as an x or z, rather than his usual Y spot.
I'm impressed. Finally got you off that 1, 2 and 3 shit. Again, all teams move their guys around. Not worth discussing as it doesn't fit what your trying to say.
Because 1,2,3 isn't a position, it's a type of receiver. but I'm not going to keep going on about that.




hmm.... how quickly I forget 40 times of linemen. I'll be quite honest, and say I don't know any 40 times of our linemen. Actually, now that I think of it, I can't think of too many plays that call for our OL to run 40 yards downfield. However, what I do recall is seeing our line, specifically both tackles, getting manhandled by fast DE's because they can't get out of a stance and into position fast enough. I also see them miss blocks because they can't move into position quick enough. There's a reason the ZB scheme generally calls for smaller quicker linemen. They need to be quick. Big guys aren't usually as quick. If we had big strong guys who are some of the QUICKest (note, not fastest) linemen in the league, we'd have the best line (ps. we don't). Chilly thinks he's an offensive mastermind and can take an established scheme and turn it upside down and make it work, when in fact, he can't.
You don't have to remember their times, you just need to remember the damn good threads (two of them) that were written by Mr. A and I a couple of years ago.

As to watching our Olmen get beat, it has nothing to do with them being slow or fast. All OLmen get beat. All of them, regardless of how fast or slow they are, thats why TE's, FB's and RB's are assigned to help them block.

The ZBing scheme has worked for us the whole time it has been employed. What you seem to fail to make the difference on is when those guys are getting beat, in almost all instance it is when they are pass protecting. Again they are not in the ZB'ing scheme then. They are in the type of blocking scheme we are gonna run all the time next year.
Right, so Ap running into a wall of defenders every play isn't run blocking? That isn't poor zone blocking execution? The problem with the ZB scheme, as pointed out by Mr. A as well, is that if one guy misses, the whole line misses. everyone gets out of position, then we need to rely on Peterson to do it all. I saw somewhere, I don't have a link, but Peterson led the league in yards after contact? Or was damn high up there. Why? Because he keeps getting hit in the backfield or within a yard of the LOS.


Talk about a coach trying to fit square pegs in a round hole. Now we are gonna quit doing what has made our running game successful (along with AD and CT) and use just the part of the scheme that we suck at.
Man Pass blocking is much, much different than man run blocking. To claim because we suck at pass blocking, we will suck at run blocking using a man scheme indicates you either don't understand line play, or just are arguing for the sake of arguing something. I suspect it's the latter



Why would I compare him to to CT"s production with the Bears? Why not compare with his production the past two years as a Viking? One would think comparing within the same offense would provide for the best comparison.

so here it is:
Gerhart: 21 rec. 167 yards, 8.0ypr 0 TD
Taylor(10): 20 rec. 139 yards, 7.0ypr 0 TD
Taylor(09): 44 rec. 389 yards, 8.8ypr 1 TD
Taylor(08): 45 rec. 399 yards, 8.9ypr 2 TD
Taylor(07): 29 rec. 291 yards, 9.7ypr 0 TD

So what exactly is your point? That Taylor was much better as a 3rd down/receiving back because his skillset matched what was needed much better than a mediocre powerback who's slower than Favre with two broken ankles? Yeah, I could see that point. Wait, that wasn't your point, it was mine? You don't say....

Why look at what he did two years ago with us. You need to look at what he did this year. Isn't that what we are comparing. One player vs another player in the given year. No. I could compare Berrian to Rice and come to the conclusion Berrian is a better player based on that logic. You compare using the best method to fairly compare a guy. Comparing a player to a guy in an entirely different scheme used an entirely different way will not provide a valid comparason. Hell, culpepper had a hell of a season, he should be our QB. I mean, it's all about comparing a player with another player at a given point in time right?


Hell, it doesn't make any damn sense to compare a seasoned Vet when he was in his prime from back in the day vs a rook who is just learning.
Sure it does. It's showing a guy with the right skillset can be much better than a guy doing something he's not used to and not designed to do. That's why I want to see more of Booker and less Gerhart. Gerhart has his time and place, but 3rd and long is not it.



Everything after you tried to do that was just basically data dumped, including the joke you tried to make at the end as it doesn't apply.
ah, because you don't like it, then it doesn't apply


Again, Toby did better this year than CT did in the same role. How is that trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? Hmm... two different teams, with two different players. yeah, that's the same role. I'd say the fact he did significantly better here, then dropped off with the Bears would indicate something is much different. I'd say the fact he did well here, while Gerhart didn't would indicate something is wrong. Gerhart was not a pass catcher in College, why do you think he'd all of a sudden be successful at it here in the Pros? We had the same deal with Peterson, he was never much of a receiver in OU, that's why we had Taylor.



When we run swing passes with Peterson, I see more often than not it works well. Why? Because get him in space with DB's trying to tackle him, and he wins. We used him a bunch in the passing game, but alot was passes within 10 yards of the tackle box. I won't comment on the screens, because I honestly haven't noticed that part much

Thats because AD wasn't very successfull running screens. When he could get to the right spot, he was devastating. Hell, he even scored TD's out of the. One of his first TD's was a screen play. Problem was, he couldn't execute them. Thats why the staff didn't run them much with him in there.
Umm, no, his first TD was not a screen play. It was a swing pass.


Kindof flies in the face of your peg theory as in this instance, they didn't try to fit a square peg in a round hole. whatever you say




Yes, and we are not the Pats. Camarillio has been a slot receiver. Only a slot receiver. we play him on the outside and he gets nothing. The pats make it work because they have talented players who can play multiple positions. we don't. It's that simple. They can change their fronts, have complex schemes, etc. Both Favre and now Shiancoe have said we needed to go back to the basics, and learn to do that well, as we were failing hard in that department.
Or do they have a QB who can hit the receiver when he is open. Valid point.


Look, running a 5 route from the slot is still a 5 route when you are split wide, in fact it should be easier cause you are battling a small CB and no traffic, instead of a strong LB and possibly a S in the box.
Are you trying to tell me that a receiver should be able to play either position just the same? History would prove you wrong. If not, what's your point? Arguing just to argue again?


As I said earlier, can we please stop trying to get me going on the Noodle. I really really really am sick and tired of talking about him.
That's twice now you've tried to bring him up, I haven't said a word


In the end, Cam can be split wide. They did it with him in the Phins and he had a worse QB. Lewis's great TD catch from you know who came when he was split out wide.

Your discussion point that the Chiller put the WR's in roles they didn't fit is absolutely crazy talk and you know it. ;)

Ah, so Harvin should be played from the wideout position? It won't make a difference? There's a reason guys get labeled as a slot receiver. Because they're better at it. The positions aren't the same. Some guys excel on the outside, some on the inside. Some can do anything (true #1's ;) ). Your discussion point stating otherwise is absolutely crazy talk and you know it

One in a while a post comes along that really sets the world straight and this is one of them. IBP is taking names today lol.

i_bleed_purple
02-17-2011, 05:34 PM
Right, so Ap running into a wall of defenders every play isn't run blocking? That isn't poor zone blocking execution? The problem with the ZB scheme, as pointed out by Mr. A as well, is that if one guy misses, the whole line misses. everyone gets out of position, then we need to rely on Peterson to do it all. I saw somewhere, I don't have a link, but Peterson led the league in yards after contact? Or was damn high up there. Why? Because he keeps getting hit in the backfield or within a yard of the LOS.

You make me work harder answering your quotes that Purple Floyd does. I am gonna give you the nickname Quote instead of him. :laugh:

AD running into a wall of defenders is a good point, but in alof of instances it was his fault as well. Lets not forget the video of Theenimy coaching him "Tuff Love" on the NFL Network channel.

Theenimy (and AD) both admitted that he wasn't patient and in most instances, his first two steps didn't set up the blocks the way they should causing the blog you refer to as a wall.

The OL did mess up. Some of that was poor execution on their part, some of it was poor execution on AD's part and some of it was just good execution on the defenses part.

In the end, you don't have the rushing yards like we've had since the ZB scheme was installed and the production out of our backup backs without someone doing their job blocking.
There are cases, yes when he could be more patient and he'd have had a big play. Same can be said for every back in the league. However, do you not find it odd that AP had his best season statistically when he was running as hard and as fast as he could (with a top-flight FB in front of him too?). Many, many plays, if Peterson is more "patient", he'll get hit for a 5 yard loss. I played back, now I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but there are two different cases. Sometimes, you wait for something to open up. Othertimes, you stick your head down and run forward to salvage what yardage you can.



No. I could compare Berrian to Rice and come to the conclusion Berrian is a better player based on that logic. You compare using the best method to fairly compare a guy. Comparing a player to a guy in an entirely different scheme used an entirely different way will not provide a valid comparason. Hell, culpepper had a hell of a season, he should be our QB. I mean, it's all about comparing a player with another player at a given point in time right?

What? How does that have anything to do with putting Toby out there in 3rd down situations?

You said he didn't work. I used CT, a third down back, in a offense that is designed for the back as an example that he did just fine in that role.

Mark my words, you are gonna like you some Toby before his career is over.
For the record, I don't dislike Toby. I don't like where we drafted him, and he's not made out to be a 3rd down receiving back. We have two better options on the roster, but don't use them.

As for your comparison, it's just like comparing Microsoft's Revenues to Texaco. You're going to get two very different numbers, ratios, etc. You can't really compare them as well as you can compare say Microsoft and Apple, or Texaco and BP.


I think your just hung up on his size, like you are the OLmen, believing that he is slow, when in fact he is 1/10th of a second slower than AD in his forty times.
And, last I checked, 40 times mean shit in the NFL. anybody can run a good 40 time with enough practice. It's about how fast you play with pads and 21 other guys on the field. Toby is not 1/10th of a second slower than AD on the field. AD is one of the fastest guys out there. Toby is not.

However, you want to do 40 times, I did a little research

AD's Combine 40 time: 4.4
AD's best: 4.37 (pro day)

Gerharts Combine time:4.53
Gerharts range: 4.47-4.62 through pro days and combine

AD is a 4.37-4.4 runner, Gerhart is a 4.5. In comparason, Mike Williams ran a 4.53. I suppose you're going to tell me he plays fast too?



Sure it does. It's showing a guy with the right skillset can be much better than a guy doing something he's not used to and not designed to do. That's why I want to see more of Booker and less Gerhart. Gerhart has his time and place, but 3rd and long is not it.

Why?

He had 5 attempts in situations were he needed to get 10+ yards and avg 13.4 yards (AD had 18.3) in those attempts. 3rd and long he avg 7.8 yards (AD had 6.5 yds)Yes, he had 5 attempts. You know as well as I do that's not enough to call an average. It's the same thing you say about TJ, how he's going to be a top flight QB one day, just needs time. Booker needs more than 5 attempts to determine if he's good or not. He does however have the hands, speed and quickness to make guys miss and get a first down, much like Taylor does, and much like Gerhart does not.


Is he AD? Hell no. But for a rook with limited touches, he did fine. With some offseason work, his numbers should only go up.
Pretty much what I just said



Hmm... two different teams, with two different players. yeah, that's the same role. I'd say the fact he did significantly better here, then dropped off with the Bears would indicate something is much different. I'd say the fact he did well here, while Gerhart didn't would indicate something is wrong. Gerhart was not a pass catcher in College, why do you think he'd all of a sudden be successful at it here in the Pros? We had the same deal with Peterson, he was never much of a receiver in OU, that's why we had Taylor.

I didn't say I expected him to excel at it coming out of college. Again, twisting my words. Go check my stuff on him this year, you will see that I was very surprised when he did well at it.
Yes, well if you don't expect him to do well and think maybe somebody can do better, put the guy who can do better in. I have no problem with Gerhart. He can be a great change of pace guy, pounding it on 1st, 2nd and 3rd and short-Med. But on 3rd and long, he's not the guy I'd expect on the field. We're not fooling anybody




Umm, no, his first TD was not a screen play. It was a swing pass.

When you gonna learn. I didn't say first. I said one of his first.

I can tell you this, I think you and I wouldn't have anything to talk about if you actually read what I typed. Boy would these night shifts be boring. LOL :P
No, like V4L pointed out, AP has 2 career receiving TD's, and neither were screen passes. Nice thy though.




Are you trying to tell me that a receiver should be able to play either position just the same? History would prove you wrong. If not, what's your point? Arguing just to argue again?

Nope, not what I'm saying. I am saying that a guy who can run a 5 route out of the slot should be able to run the same route out of another position. Soo.... what exactly are you trying to say? "I'm not saying slot and wideout are the same, just that they're the same" Lots of sense that makes



Ah, so Harvin should be played from the wideout position? It won't make a difference? There's a reason guys get labeled as a slot receiver. Because they're better at it. The positions aren't the same. Some guys excel on the outside, some on the inside. Some can do anything (true #1's ;) ). Your discussion point stating otherwise is absolutely crazy talk and you know it
What I know is your just mixing apples and oranges.

Of course a guy is better in one position than another. Doesn't mean he can't shift.
Doesn't mean he can either. Some guys can shift, some don't. You almost always see Welker playing out of the slot in a 3 wr set, because he's that good at it. Why take away one of your best weapons? Same with Harvin. As a Wideout, he didn't do nearly as well as he does out of the slot. Wideouts play against the other teams best corners most often. Slots have nickel backs, Safeties and linebackers. Sometimes, yes they'll stick a 1 or 2 corner on him, but most often, its slower safeties/lb's or a nickel receiver. That's why he seems to find more space in the slot than on the outside


Hell, your one of the biggest for asking to see things like 2 RB's in the backfield. Isn't that asking them to do something that is out of their comfort level?

I've mentioned it, but I wouldn't say I'm one of the biggest. I'd prefer it, because I don't see any value from Tahi whatsoever. A Gerhart/Peterson combination will have the defense uncomfortable of what is to come. Gerhart up the middle for the hard yards? Peterson off-tackle? Swing pass to the outside? Or is it all a decoy for a long bomb to Rice? It's not something to build an offense around, but definitely a wrinkle I'd like to see put in there. We saw it a little bit. We heard they planned on doing it, it just never really stuck.

slavinator
02-17-2011, 06:08 PM
Good video Thanks for posting!!

One of the other key things that I pulled from this was that Visanthe is among the top 3 TE's in the league in TD's scored in the last 3 years (20TD's).

Factor in Musgrave's heavy use of the TE and we could see Visanthe get even more involved. That is if we have a QB who can throw it to him, and a line that can protect.

I also noted all the things Mr A said. Good stuff.

PackSux!
02-18-2011, 04:46 PM
I hate to bring up the Berrian debate again, but wasnt his 99 yard touchdown catch in 2008? That catch right there is the reason his yards per catch was so high.

Bring in a veteran qb and draft a rookie qb. Resign Rice and try to get rid of Berrian, and roll with Rice, Harvin and Webb as our recievers.

i_bleed_purple
02-18-2011, 04:54 PM
I hate to bring up the Berrian debate again, but wasnt his 99 yard touchdown catch in 2008? That catch right there is the reason his yards per catch was so high.

Bring in a veteran qb and draft a rookie qb. Resign Rice and try to get rid of Berrian, and roll with Rice, Harvin and Webb as our recievers.

it was. in 2008, berrian had 48 receptions with 964 yards for a 20.1 average.

Take that catch away, it's 47 receptions for 845 yards for 17.98 average, good for 5th in the league for players with over 30 catches

But in fact, Berrian did not lead the league in 2008 in average as Marrdro would have you believe. That honor went to Devery Henderson for 32 catches, 793 yards and 24.8ypc.

Caine
02-18-2011, 05:12 PM
I hate to bring up the Berrian debate again, but wasnt his 99 yard touchdown catch in 2008? That catch right there is the reason his yards per catch was so high.

Bring in a veteran qb and draft a rookie qb. Resign Rice and try to get rid of Berrian, and roll with Rice, Harvin and Webb as our recievers.

Webb will never be a receiver again. He's being groomed at QB.

We could use more depth at WR regardless...and I agree that Berrian should be dropped.

I also agree with the notion that our O-line needs work, and that Peterson's ability to produce has been more about HIM than about our line...

Caine

tastywaves
02-18-2011, 05:52 PM
I hate to bring up the Berrian debate again, but wasnt his 99 yard touchdown catch in 2008? That catch right there is the reason his yards per catch was so high.

Bring in a veteran qb and draft a rookie qb. Resign Rice and try to get rid of Berrian, and roll with Rice, Harvin and Webb as our recievers.

it was. in 2008, berrian had 48 receptions with 964 yards for a 20.1 average.

Take that catch away, it's 47 receptions for 845 yards for 17.98 average, good for 5th in the league for players with over 30 catches

But in fact, Berrian did not lead the league in 2008 in average as Marrdro would have you believe. That honor went to Devery Henderson for 32 catches, 793 yards and 24.8ypc.

Whether he led the league or not, I think its pretty clear that Berrian is not what we need at reciever on this club. I would rather roll with a hungry rookie that is willing to work his ass off and stay healthy. Rice, Harvin, Camarillo, rookie and whatever hodgepodge of vets you can put together.

Mr Anderson
02-18-2011, 06:17 PM
I hate to bring up the Berrian debate again, but wasnt his 99 yard touchdown catch in 2008? That catch right there is the reason his yards per catch was so high.

Bring in a veteran qb and draft a rookie qb. Resign Rice and try to get rid of Berrian, and roll with Rice, Harvin and Webb as our recievers.
We could use more depth at WR regardless...and I agree that Berrian should be dropped.

I also agree with the notion that our O-line needs work, and that Peterson's ability to produce has been more about HIM than about our line...

Caine
Hit the nail on the head there, Caine.

When a back has 75% of his yardage after first contact, he's producing. When you have a guy who's regularly producing awe-inducing short yardage runs, your line isn't doing it's job properly.

I've voiced this a dozen times, but I think we can do a much better job of getting Peterson to the second level by scrapping zone blocking. That obviously won't help pass protection, but that's OK, any improvement is a good thing IMO. What will help pass protection? Whip these big guys into shape in the off-season. I want McKinnie playing at 320 and Loadholt at 330. There's no doubt in my mind that at 6'8" these guys were WAY over 350 by the end of the season. Basically put these guys through pre-combine work along with that weight loss and I think you have two very solid tackles. Get them back to the fundamentals of pass protection. I think we need help inside as well, and I believe those alternatives lie in the middle rounds of the draft with guys like Ziemba and Moffitt. I'd also not be opposed to giving Ryan Cook a chance to play center, the guy really didn't look bad when he was out there. It's clear that he's not a tackle, but he's a big-ass center who should be able to stand up to big NTs like Sully could not.

I like a lot of what I saw from Gerhart, I don't really understand where the hate comes from. He was a rookie, and at times played like one. I think he might not have a great system next year either, considering the offensive coaching change, but I imagine it's not going to be too much different, and he's a running back anyway. So long as his technique is sound he'll be fine. He just needs a little refinement and I think he'll be a really solid 3rd down back/Peterson alternative.

Harvin in the slot creates favorable matchups and gives him more options for running after the catch, that's why I like him there. His skillset would allow him to play anywhere on the field as a receiver, but that run after the catch ability is why I like him in the slot.

Injuries are a major concern to me, we had a rough year with them in 2010. Hopefully it's not a trend.

It's obviously important to straighten out the QB situation, but I think if Webb develops some solid chemistry with the wide receivers, I think it's important that we keep him out there. Even if he's not technically perfect and proficient at reading defenses, he's capable of buying himself enough time where those technical proficiencies go out the window. He's got the athleticism and strong arm to make plays happen out of the pocket, as well as the obvious ability to tuck and run. There's so many options for Webb that I'd hate to see him on the sideline.

I'm glad the Favre era is over, I'm ecstatic Childress is gone. I've been optimistic for the past two seasons now... which is unusual for me, I don't know if I've changed as a person or simply gotten dumber, but I'm feeling that strange optimism about the future of this team again. I lost all faith on November 1st, but it was returned three weeks later.

I want to see an energy that we didn't have last season, and I think the turnaround in the coaching staff will help bring that change about. It's time for the Vikings to play like their namesake. There's a reason why our little chat feature in the top right is called the "Berserker Yell"
ber·serk·er. an ancient Norse warrior who fought with frenzied rage in battle.

jargomcfargo
02-18-2011, 06:53 PM
I hate to bring up the Berrian debate again, but wasnt his 99 yard touchdown catch in 2008? That catch right there is the reason his yards per catch was so high.

Bring in a veteran qb and draft a rookie qb. Resign Rice and try to get rid of Berrian, and roll with Rice, Harvin and Webb as our recievers.
We could use more depth at WR regardless...and I agree that Berrian should be dropped.

I also agree with the notion that our O-line needs work, and that Peterson's ability to produce has been more about HIM than about our line...

Caine
Hit the nail on the head there, Caine.

When a guy has 75% of his yardage after first contact, he's producing. When you have a guy who's regularly producing awe-inducing short yardage runs, your line isn't doing it's job properly.

I've voiced this a dozen times, but I think we can do a much better job of getting Peterson to the second level by scrapping zone blocking. That obviously won't help pass protection, but that's OK, any improvement is a good thing IMO. What will help pass protection? Whip these big guys into shape in the off-season. I want McKinnie playing at 320 and Loadholt at 330. There's no doubt in my mind that at 6'8" these guys were WAY over 350 by the end of the season. Basically put these guys through pre-combine work along with that weight loss and I think you have two very solid tackles. Get them back to the fundamentals of pass protection. I think we need help inside as well, and I believe those alternatives lie in the middle rounds of the draft with guys like Ziemba and Moffitt. I'd also not be opposed to giving Ryan Cook a chance to play center, the guy really didn't look bad when he was out there. It's clear that he's not a tackle, but he's a big-ass center who should be able to stand up to big NTs like Sully could not.

I like a lot of what I saw from Gerhart, I don't really understand where the hate comes from. He was a rookie, and at times played like one. I think he might not have a great system next year either, considering the offensive coaching change, but I imagine it's not going to be too much different, and he's a running back anyway. So long as his technique is sound he'll be fine. He just needs a little refinement and I think he'll be a really solid 3rd down back/Peterson alternative.

Harvin in the slot creates favorable matchups and gives him more options for running after the catch, that's why I like him there. His skillset would allow him to play anywhere on the field as a receiver, but that run after the catch ability is why I like him in the slot.

Injuries are a major concern to me, we had a rough year with them in 2010. Hopefully it's not a trend.

It's obviously important to straighten out the QB situation, but I think if Webb develops some solid chemistry with the wide receivers, I think it's important that we keep him out there. Even if he's not technically perfect and proficient at reading defenses, he's capable of buying himself enough time where those technical proficiencies go out the window. He's got the athleticism and strong arm to make plays happen out of the pocket, as well as the obvious ability to tuck and run. There's so many options for Webb that I'd hate to see him on the sideline.

I'm glad the Favre era is over, I'm ecstatic Childress is gone. I've been optimistic for the past two seasons now... which is unusual for me, I don't know if I've changed as a person or simply gotten dumber, but I'm feeling that strange optimism about the future of this team again. I lost all faith on November 1st, but it was returned three weeks later.

I want to see an energy that we didn't have last season, and I think the turnaround in the coaching staff will help bring that change about. It's time for the Vikings to play like their namesake. There's a reason why our little chat feature in the top right is called the "Berserker Yell"
ber·serk·er. an ancient Norse warrior who fought with frenzied rage in battle.

If McKinnie and Loadholdt come to camp slim trim and in shape, I would take that as a very positive sign with regard to Frazier as coach.
When I think of McKinnie, I think about unrealized potential. Loadholdt seemed to regress his second year.

I agree with most of your post.
The big question mark with Webb is whether he will be able to effectively pass.
Game managers are fine if you have the lead, but you have to be able to effectively pass when you are behind and the defense has their ears pinned back.

I think a new run blocking scheme will help Toby as well as AD.

I don't expect a great year in 2011. But I expect to see enough positive things to give hope for the future. And every year there is a chance for a team to spring up from nowhere and exceed expectation.

The Vikings went from first to last in one season. It's not impossible to do the opposite.

singersp
02-20-2011, 05:05 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

Purple Floyd
02-20-2011, 05:36 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Caine
02-20-2011, 06:29 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

Purple Floyd
02-21-2011, 12:24 AM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.

V4L
02-21-2011, 12:38 AM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.


Who the hell thinks Jackson could sniff Brady's jock?

Purple Floyd
02-21-2011, 01:04 AM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.


Who the hell thinks Jackson could sniff Brady's jock?

Apparently according to some he is better than Farve and Farve is a 1st ballot HOF so that would put him right up there doesn't it?

Caine
02-21-2011, 05:09 AM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.


Who the hell thinks Jackson could sniff Brady's jock?

Apparently according to some he is better than Farve and Farve is a 1st ballot HOF so that would put him right up there doesn't it?

I think Jackson could sniff Brady's jock....










...if he bought it on EBay.

Caine

Marrdro
02-23-2011, 06:53 PM
I hate to bring up the Berrian debate again, but wasnt his 99 yard touchdown catch in 2008? That catch right there is the reason his yards per catch was so high.

Bring in a veteran qb and draft a rookie qb. Resign Rice and try to get rid of Berrian, and roll with Rice, Harvin and Webb as our recievers.

it was. in 2008, berrian had 48 receptions with 964 yards for a 20.1 average.

Take that catch away, it's 47 receptions for 845 yards for 17.98 average, good for 5th in the league for players with over 30 catches

But in fact, Berrian did not lead the league in 2008 in average as Marrdro would have you believe. That honor went to Devery Henderson for 32 catches, 793 yards and 24.8ypc.
Why should we take the catch away? Isn't that what he is there to do, stretch the field and catch long balls?

"Marrdro can be seen scratching his slightly balding head":huh:

Marrdro
02-23-2011, 06:58 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?
One thing I liked about the Noodle, at least he was honest when asked about his role in that regard when asked about his role in teaching/mentoring young Rodgers.

I always marvel at the fans who think Vets teach the youngsters how to take thier jobs.

In the end, there is a chucklehead on here who continually states the painfully obvious obvious.....Coaches Coach and Players Play.:P

Marrdro
02-23-2011, 06:59 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.
Find me one person/post on here where someone says that TJ is the next Joe Montana.

Hell, I bet you can't find one that says he is nothing better than adequate when it comes to a NFL ready QB at this point.

Marrdro
02-23-2011, 07:01 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.


Who the hell thinks Jackson could sniff Brady's jock?

Apparently according to some he is better than Farve and Farve is a 1st ballot HOF so that would put him right up there doesn't it?
Your worse than I_bleed with your logic.

I for one wanted him over the Noodle just because I think the Noodle is an ass, has always been an ass and will always be an ass.

That and I knew he wasn't the "Best chance to win" that most of you on here was convinced he was. ;)

Purple Floyd
02-23-2011, 07:19 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.


Who the hell thinks Jackson could sniff Brady's jock?

Apparently according to some he is better than Farve and Farve is a 1st ballot HOF so that would put him right up there doesn't it?
Your worse than I_bleed with your logic.

I for one wanted him over the Noodle just because I think the Noodle is an ass, has always been an ass and will always be an ass.

That and I knew he wasn't the "Best chance to win" that most of you on here was convinced he was. ;)

So in short you are one of them I was referring to.

slavinator
02-24-2011, 05:29 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?
One thing I liked about the Noodle, at least he was honest when asked about his role in that regard when asked about his role in teaching/mentoring young Rodgers.

I always marvel at the fans who think Vets teach the youngsters how to take thier jobs.

In the end, there is a chucklehead on here who continually states the painfully obvious obvious.....Coaches Coach and Players Play.:P

I have pointed out over my time on PPO that I believe older vets mentor and coach up younger players. While it may not be an X and O conversation or "go here with the defense gives you this look"; I do believe younger guys in the same meeting room, film study, and watching how a vet approaches their craft leaves an a mark on younger guys. It helps them to learn by watching those in front of them.

I believe that players play and coaches coach but this is a system/league where being somewhat of a copycat of another player, team, and organization can yeild positive results. For example, Reid/McNabb showing Vick how to better study film, which was cited as a big reason for his improvement. I think where guys learn the most is in their preparation skills and how they practice which shows up on game day.

I will agree that this is no substitute for god given ability, but my contention is that there is something to be learned by watching others who excel at their job. This is a type of mentorship whether its spoken or unspoken. While they may not be dolling out tips, mirroring what an accomplished Vet does is a way where younger players get better.

dfosterf
02-24-2011, 06:39 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?
One thing I liked about the Noodle, at least he was honest when asked about his role in that regard when asked about his role in teaching/mentoring young Rodgers.

I always marvel at the fans who think Vets teach the youngsters how to take thier jobs.

In the end, there is a chucklehead on here who continually states the painfully obvious obvious.....Coaches Coach and Players Play.:P

I have pointed out over my time on PPO that I believe older vets mentor and coach up younger players. While it may not be an X and O conversation or "go here with the defense gives you this look"; I do believe younger guys in the same meeting room, film study, and watching how a vet approaches their craft leaves an a mark on younger guys. It helps them to learn by watching those in front of them.

I believe that players play and coaches coach but this is a system/league where being somewhat of a copycat of another player, team, and organization can yeild positive results. For example, Reid/McNabb showing Vick how to better study film, which was cited as a big reason for his improvement. I think where guys learn the most is in their preparation skills and how they practice which shows up on game day.

I will agree that this is no substitute for god given ability, but my contention is that there is something to be learned by watching others who excel at their job. This is a type of mentorship whether its spoken or unspoken. While they may not be dolling out tips, mirroring what an accomplished Vet does is a way where younger players get better.

Quite a while ago I told you folks that Aaron Rodgers worked with Drew Brees and some other QB's in the off-season. I believe I mentioned this when I was asking if Minnesota runs a QB school...

I found an article discussing what I'd mentioned. I wonder why T-Jack/Webb/whoever couldn't do the same.

http://packersnews.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100801/PKR01/100801057/1057/PKR&located=rss


For two summers now, Aaron Rodgers has enrolled in a second quarterbacks school.





The first has been with the Green Bay Packers, whose quarterbacks coach, Tom Clements, runs an annual session from March through early May as part of the offseason workout program.

The second has been after the final minicamp in late June, when Rodgers returns to his offseason home in San Diego and works out several days a week with a group of NFL and college players. There, the tutor is New Orleans Saints quarterback Drew Brees, who was voted Super Bowl MVP in February after leading the NFL in passer rating in the regular season.

Brees wasn’t around as much for this year’s workouts because he was on a Super Bowl MVP “world tour,” as Rodgers called it, appearing on national TV talk shows, throwing out the first ball at a New York Yankees game and the like. But he was there part-time as a role model even though Rodgers has become a top NFL quarterback in his own right.

“The thing (Brees’ 2009 season) reinforces is that hard work pays off, because nobody works harder than that guy,” Rodgers said after the Packers’ morning practice on Sunday. “I’m just trying to keep up with him when we’re out there, because he busts his butt. He puts in his time. He’s like the leader among leaders in that group.”




My bet would be that someone like possibly RODGERS will be the "mentor" in the next version of this off-season work.




Rodgers said the five weeks he spends in San Diego before the start of training camp are like a vacation after going through quarterbacks school and then offseason practices. Unlike when he’s in Green Bay, there are no meetings or film sessions, so it provides him with time to get away from the game mentally.

But it nevertheless includes regular workouts with a group of NFL and college players who live in that area, including quarterback A.J. Feeley of the St. Louis Rams, quarterback Kevin O’Connell of the New York Jets, cornerback Charles Tillman of the Chicago Bears, linebacker Shawne Merriman of the San Diego Chargers, tight end Justin Peelle of the Atlanta Falcons, tight end Kellen Winslow of the Tampa Bay Bucs, linebacker Ben Leber of the Minnesota Vikings and halfback Darren Sproles of the Chargers.

The players work out at a local gym and then two or three days a week some go to a nearby school to run pass routes.



I've always sort of chuckled at the thought so many think that sitting behind Brett is what helped Rodgers most.

Trent Dilfer was possibly "the" mentor for Rodgers, btw.

The template exists for Vikes QB's, imo, and further, do I think an Aaron Rodgers would "mentor" a Joe Webb, for instance?

You bet I do. The "fraternity" of QB's in the NFL might be under-appreciated by the respective teams' fanbases.

singersp
02-25-2011, 01:29 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.

There is no one here, not now, not ever, that claimed Jackson was the next coming of Montana or that he would be great. That is something invented only in the minds of the Jackson haters.

What was said was, that the Vikings should continue to start him in 2008 instead of benching him after 2 losses at the start of the season. Again in 2009, some here wanted to play him to see what we had, rather than go after Favre, who had no future here. If he panned out, great, if he didn't, let him go & move on. It was typically stated that TJ could improve & be a damn good QB, he could stay the same & be mediocre or he could digress. It would not be known unless we continued to play him on a regular basis.

The Vikings chose to let him sit & learn while Frerotte played, still thinking that he could be our future starter. They continued that "not knowing if" in 2009 & 2010 when they signed & re-signed Favre to make SB pushes. That keeping TJ on the roster as our potential starter of the future & kept the Vikings from addressing a legit starter in the draft.

Also, I for one never claimed Favre would mentor or help the young QB's. Did I think he should? Yes. Did I think he would? Absolutely not. It was a known fact by statements both from Favre & Rodgers that he wouldn't & didn't, but some of the Favre campers tried selling he would do it here.

Purple Floyd
02-25-2011, 02:42 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.

There is no one here, not now, not ever, that claimed Jackson was the next coming of Montana or that he would be great. That is something invented only in the minds of the Jackson haters.

What was said was, that the Vikings should continue to start him in 2008 instead of benching him after 2 losses at the start of the season. Again in 2009, some here wanted to play him to see what we had, rather than go after Favre, who had no future here. If he panned out, great, if he didn't, let him go & move on. It was typically stated that TJ could improve & be a damn good QB, he could stay the same & be mediocre or he could digress. It would not be known unless we continued to play him on a regular basis.

The Vikings chose to let him sit & learn while Frerotte played, still thinking that he could be our future starter. They continued that "not knowing if" in 2009 & 2010 when they signed & re-signed Favre to make SB pushes. That keeping TJ on the roster as our potential starter of the future & kept the Vikings from addressing a legit starter in the draft.

Also, I for one never claimed Favre would mentor or help the young QB's. Did I think he should? Yes. Did I think he would? Absolutely not. It was a known fact by statements both from Favre & Rodgers that he wouldn't & didn't, but some of the Favre campers tried selling he would do it here.

So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......

Marrdro
02-28-2011, 02:12 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.


Who the hell thinks Jackson could sniff Brady's jock?

Apparently according to some he is better than Farve and Farve is a 1st ballot HOF so that would put him right up there doesn't it?
Your worse than I_bleed with your logic.

I for one wanted him over the Noodle just because I think the Noodle is an ass, has always been an ass and will always be an ass.

That and I knew he wasn't the "Best chance to win" that most of you on here was convinced he was. ;)

So in short you are one of them I was referring to.
Absolutely not. Again, I challenge you to find one place were I said he was better than the Noodle. My analysis of wanting TJ over the Noodle has nothing to do with talent. I just flat out don't like the guy. Never have, never will.

He is a me me me asswhipe. This team needed someone who was a team player last year, not someone who was here just to pad his consecutive starts streak.

So in short, no I am not. Give it another go though. Eventually you might post something (when it comes to my opinions/viewpoints) that makes sense or atleast jives with what I am saying.

Marrdro
02-28-2011, 02:15 PM
So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......
Why is this important to you? In the end, coaches coach, players play. If your starter is spending time "Mentoring/Teaching" the younger guys, he isn't getting himself ready to play.

Maybe thats why he sucked so bad last year. He was "Mentoring Webb". LOL

(Now I'm cracking myself up")

singersp
02-28-2011, 02:51 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.

There is no one here, not now, not ever, that claimed Jackson was the next coming of Montana or that he would be great. That is something invented only in the minds of the Jackson haters.

What was said was, that the Vikings should continue to start him in 2008 instead of benching him after 2 losses at the start of the season. Again in 2009, some here wanted to play him to see what we had, rather than go after Favre, who had no future here. If he panned out, great, if he didn't, let him go & move on. It was typically stated that TJ could improve & be a damn good QB, he could stay the same & be mediocre or he could digress. It would not be known unless we continued to play him on a regular basis.

The Vikings chose to let him sit & learn while Frerotte played, still thinking that he could be our future starter. They continued that "not knowing if" in 2009 & 2010 when they signed & re-signed Favre to make SB pushes. That keeping TJ on the roster as our potential starter of the future & kept the Vikings from addressing a legit starter in the draft.

Also, I for one never claimed Favre would mentor or help the young QB's. Did I think he should? Yes. Did I think he would? Absolutely not. It was a known fact by statements both from Favre & Rodgers that he wouldn't & didn't, but some of the Favre campers tried selling he would do it here.

So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......

I believe he certainly may have helped him out some where he could, but there is no proof of that either way. In Favre's case however, we know for fact that he doesn't do it.

Purple Floyd
02-28-2011, 02:52 PM
Absolutely not. Again, I challenge you to find one place were I said he was better than the Noodle.




I went up about 3 posts and found this:

Your worse than I_bleed with your logic.

I for one wanted him over the Noodle just because I think the Noodle is an ass, has always been an ass and will always be an ass.

That and I knew he wasn't the "Best chance to win" that most of you on here was convinced he was.

Well, since the 3 on the roster were Brett, TJ and Webb, if Brett wasn't the "Best chance to win" could you please refine your choice between the remaining 2 and get back to me?:P



My analysis of wanting TJ over the Noodle has nothing to do with talent. I just flat out don't like the guy. Never have, never will.

I don't like him either. Actually hate is not too strong of a term for the level of dislike that I have had for him. The only thing stronger than my dislike for him is my desire to see this team succeed and at the point we signed him it is clear to anyone that he was a step up in talent over what we had. Does it piss me off that it was necessary to sign him in order to make Chilly's dream scheme work? Yes it does. But in the end I learned to live with it and hoped it was temporary and that they would find a replacement during his stay. And they didn't.



He is a me me me asswhipe. This team needed someone who was a team player last year, not someone who was here just to pad his consecutive starts streak.

Who else did they have that was not an ass wipe but could stay healthy and play at an NFL caliber level? Had Childress dumped Jackson and brought in another player who could run the offense better than Brett ( Should be easy for you to pick a player because Brett is terrible) we wouldn't have had to have all of that late training camp drama.


So in short, no I am not. Give it another go though. Eventually you might post something (when it comes to my opinions/viewpoints) that makes sense or atleast jives with what I am saying.

Nobody will ever post anything that jives with what you are saying because every time you are backed into a corner you turn what you were saying around to cover your butt. But heck, I have a few minutes to waste.:laugh:

Purple Floyd
02-28-2011, 02:55 PM
So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......
Why is this important to you? In the end, coaches coach, players play. If your starter is spending time "Mentoring/Teaching" the younger guys, he isn't getting himself ready to play.

Maybe thats why he sucked so bad last year. He was "Mentoring Webb". LOL

(Now I'm cracking myself up")

It isn't that important to me but it was apparently important enough to Singer to bring it up so I asked him whether it was only important for Brett to Mentor or whether another half decade veteran should be held to the same standard. Sorry you couldn't follow the thread.:laugh:

singersp
02-28-2011, 02:55 PM
So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......
Why is this important to you? In the end, coaches coach, players play. If your starter is spending time "Mentoring/Teaching" the younger guys, he isn't getting himself ready to play.

Maybe thats why he sucked so bad last year. He was "Mentoring Webb". LOL

(Now I'm cracking myself up")

The Chiller (QB guru) might not have allowed it. :)

Afterall he wanted a QB that did exactly what he scripted him to do. Never mind the look the defense gives, he wanted HIS play executed as called in. There was very little allowance for audibling. Farve though, did it anyway, which pissed off Childress.

Purple Floyd
02-28-2011, 02:56 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.

There is no one here, not now, not ever, that claimed Jackson was the next coming of Montana or that he would be great. That is something invented only in the minds of the Jackson haters.

What was said was, that the Vikings should continue to start him in 2008 instead of benching him after 2 losses at the start of the season. Again in 2009, some here wanted to play him to see what we had, rather than go after Favre, who had no future here. If he panned out, great, if he didn't, let him go & move on. It was typically stated that TJ could improve & be a damn good QB, he could stay the same & be mediocre or he could digress. It would not be known unless we continued to play him on a regular basis.

The Vikings chose to let him sit & learn while Frerotte played, still thinking that he could be our future starter. They continued that "not knowing if" in 2009 & 2010 when they signed & re-signed Favre to make SB pushes. That keeping TJ on the roster as our potential starter of the future & kept the Vikings from addressing a legit starter in the draft.

Also, I for one never claimed Favre would mentor or help the young QB's. Did I think he should? Yes. Did I think he would? Absolutely not. It was a known fact by statements both from Favre & Rodgers that he wouldn't & didn't, but some of the Favre campers tried selling he would do it here.

So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......

I believe he certainly may have helped him out some where he could, but there is no proof of that either way. In Favre's case however, we know for fact that he doesn't do it.

That is bullshit and you know it. There was plenty of film of brett going over formation photos with Sage and then showing TJ over away from them standing by himself. If he wanted to be in on the mentoring then maybe he should have sucked it up a bit and went over and asked for it.....

singersp
02-28-2011, 03:14 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.

There is no one here, not now, not ever, that claimed Jackson was the next coming of Montana or that he would be great. That is something invented only in the minds of the Jackson haters.

What was said was, that the Vikings should continue to start him in 2008 instead of benching him after 2 losses at the start of the season. Again in 2009, some here wanted to play him to see what we had, rather than go after Favre, who had no future here. If he panned out, great, if he didn't, let him go & move on. It was typically stated that TJ could improve & be a damn good QB, he could stay the same & be mediocre or he could digress. It would not be known unless we continued to play him on a regular basis.

The Vikings chose to let him sit & learn while Frerotte played, still thinking that he could be our future starter. They continued that "not knowing if" in 2009 & 2010 when they signed & re-signed Favre to make SB pushes. That keeping TJ on the roster as our potential starter of the future & kept the Vikings from addressing a legit starter in the draft.

Also, I for one never claimed Favre would mentor or help the young QB's. Did I think he should? Yes. Did I think he would? Absolutely not. It was a known fact by statements both from Favre & Rodgers that he wouldn't & didn't, but some of the Favre campers tried selling he would do it here.

So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......

I believe he certainly may have helped him out some where he could, but there is no proof of that either way. In Favre's case however, we know for fact that he doesn't do it.

That is bullshit and you know it. There was plenty of film of brett going over formation photos with Sage and then showing TJ over away from them standing by himself. If he wanted to be in on the mentoring then maybe he should have sucked it up a bit and went over and asked for it.....

I'll just disregard Favre's quotes then.

Rodgers also seems to paint quite the same picture that Favre didn't help him.

When did Sage start BTW that there was all this overwhelming film of Favre mentoring him?

ejmat
02-28-2011, 03:28 PM
If it was up to Shiancoe the Vikings would bring in someone to lead/tutor Webb.

In other words, Favre DIDN'T do that for Webb when he was here. NOW we need to find a veteran QB that WILL do what veteran QB's are expected to do.

You are reading too much into it. Brett will not be here this year so there is no chance of him being that guy so naturally we will need a different vet to do it. Nothing in that article eluded to him NOT getting any tutoring last year. And BTW- TJ was a 5th year vet last season and had many opportunities to do some "Mentoring" himself. How much mentoring do you suppose he provided to young Webb?

Do you really want Jackson mentoring Webb? Really?

"Yo..Webb...quit hitting those guys in stride!! You have to throw it above and behind them!!"

"Yo...Webb. Don't throw that crossing route for 15 yards. Trust me. Chilly wants us to hit the 5 yards come back so the receiver can make a play."

"Yo...Webb. Coach gave me the start....watch how a REAL Pro does it..."

"Yo....Webb. I'm gonna be on IR now. Good luck."

I think not.

Caine

No, I don't want him him doing any mentoring. But for those who are convinced TJ is the next coming of Joe Montana, Brady etc I find it amusing that they would hang the mentoring hat on Brett(Who they believe is incompetent and arrogant) rather than on their golden boy TJ (Who can do no wrong).

It's that simple really.

There is no one here, not now, not ever, that claimed Jackson was the next coming of Montana or that he would be great. That is something invented only in the minds of the Jackson haters.

What was said was, that the Vikings should continue to start him in 2008 instead of benching him after 2 losses at the start of the season. Again in 2009, some here wanted to play him to see what we had, rather than go after Favre, who had no future here. If he panned out, great, if he didn't, let him go & move on. It was typically stated that TJ could improve & be a damn good QB, he could stay the same & be mediocre or he could digress. It would not be known unless we continued to play him on a regular basis.

The Vikings chose to let him sit & learn while Frerotte played, still thinking that he could be our future starter. They continued that "not knowing if" in 2009 & 2010 when they signed & re-signed Favre to make SB pushes. That keeping TJ on the roster as our potential starter of the future & kept the Vikings from addressing a legit starter in the draft.

Also, I for one never claimed Favre would mentor or help the young QB's. Did I think he should? Yes. Did I think he would? Absolutely not. It was a known fact by statements both from Favre & Rodgers that he wouldn't & didn't, but some of the Favre campers tried selling he would do it here.

So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......

I believe he certainly may have helped him out some where he could, but there is no proof of that either way. In Favre's case however, we know for fact that he doesn't do it.

That is bullshit and you know it. There was plenty of film of brett going over formation photos with Sage and then showing TJ over away from them standing by himself. If he wanted to be in on the mentoring then maybe he should have sucked it up a bit and went over and asked for it.....

I'll just disregard Favre's quotes then.

Rodgers also seems to paint quite the same picture that Favre didn't help him.

When did Sage start BTW that there was all this overwhelming film of Favre mentoring him?

There were plenty of times where the tv cameras show Favre going over pictures with Sage and TJ. Unfortunately it took 1/4 of the season before TJ started being in those camera shots.

In fact, there have been several quotes by TJ himself and Joe Webb telling how much they learned from Favre. The only negative quote about mentoring I ever heard was way back when the Pack first drafted Rodgers. That was when Favre stated it wasn't his job to mentor Rodgers. However, why don't we look at all the QBs that ever played behind Favre. You know QBs such as Brunell and Mattressback. They all spoke highly of Favre but I guess that could be discounted.

Fact is this. While Rodgers was playing behind Favre that was the ONLY negative comment. In fact I seem to remember Rodgers being pretty close with Favre on the sidelines in GB. So we can continue to discount all the evidence of how Favre helped or mentored QBs and stand by one quote from 7 years ago.

Purple Floyd
02-28-2011, 03:35 PM
[

I'll just disregard Favre's quotes then.


If it makes you feel better.

Rodgers also seems to paint quite the same picture that Favre didn't help him.

Would you train a guy who wants to take your job? I know that I might be a bit reluctant.


When did Sage start BTW that there was all this overwhelming film of Favre mentoring him? So now the mentoring only happens when the young guy is in the game starting and playing? Sorry, I thought that you could maybe mentor somebody by how you prepare, how you handle game situations and by talking to them on the sidelines while the defense was on the filed.

In that case Brett could have never mentored anyone until about 13 weeks into this past season because that is the first time he wasn't playing every game since 1992.

12purplepride28
02-28-2011, 04:43 PM
So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......
Why is this important to you? In the end, coaches coach, players play. If your starter is spending time "Mentoring/Teaching" the younger guys, he isn't getting himself ready to play.

Maybe thats why he sucked so bad last year. He was "Mentoring Webb". LOL

(Now I'm cracking myself up")

Are you kidding me? That was one of your biggest problems with Favre, that he was self absorbed and didn't help out the other QBs on the team (allegedly...). But now that it's on TJ (idk who would want to be mentored by that. Like helen keller teaching you to drive) it's not his responsibility?

Caine
02-28-2011, 05:37 PM
So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......
Why is this important to you? In the end, coaches coach, players play. If your starter is spending time "Mentoring/Teaching" the younger guys, he isn't getting himself ready to play.

Maybe thats why he sucked so bad last year. He was "Mentoring Webb". LOL

(Now I'm cracking myself up")

Are you kidding me? That was one of your biggest problems with Favre, that he was self absorbed and didn't help out the other QBs on the team (allegedly...). But now that it's on TJ (idk who would want to be mentored by that. Like helen keller teaching you to drive) it's not his responsibility?

Gotta love hypocrisy...

Purple Floyd
02-28-2011, 07:44 PM
So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......
Why is this important to you? In the end, coaches coach, players play. If your starter is spending time "Mentoring/Teaching" the younger guys, he isn't getting himself ready to play.

Maybe thats why he sucked so bad last year. He was "Mentoring Webb". LOL

(Now I'm cracking myself up")

Are you kidding me? That was one of your biggest problems with Favre, that he was self absorbed and didn't help out the other QBs on the team (allegedly...). But now that it's on TJ (idk who would want to be mentored by that. Like helen keller teaching you to drive) it's not his responsibility?

Glad somebody understood the deep logic confined in that sentence. You are wise beyond your years my friend.

Marrdro
02-28-2011, 08:29 PM
Absolutely not. Again, I challenge you to find one place were I said he was better than the Noodle.




I went up about 3 posts and found this:

Your worse than I_bleed with your logic.

I for one wanted him over the Noodle just because I think the Noodle is an ass, has always been an ass and will always be an ass.

That and I knew he wasn't the "Best chance to win" that most of you on here was convinced he was.

Well, since the 3 on the roster were Brett, TJ and Webb, if Brett wasn't the "Best chance to win" could you please refine your choice between the remaining 2 and get back to me?:P



My analysis of wanting TJ over the Noodle has nothing to do with talent. I just flat out don't like the guy. Never have, never will.

I don't like him either. Actually hate is not too strong of a term for the level of dislike that I have had for him. The only thing stronger than my dislike for him is my desire to see this team succeed and at the point we signed him it is clear to anyone that he was a step up in talent over what we had. Does it piss me off that it was necessary to sign him in order to make Chilly's dream scheme work? Yes it does. But in the end I learned to live with it and hoped it was temporary and that they would find a replacement during his stay. And they didn't.



He is a me me me asswhipe. This team needed someone who was a team player last year, not someone who was here just to pad his consecutive starts streak.

Who else did they have that was not an ass wipe but could stay healthy and play at an NFL caliber level? Had Childress dumped Jackson and brought in another player who could run the offense better than Brett ( Should be easy for you to pick a player because Brett is terrible) we wouldn't have had to have all of that late training camp drama.


So in short, no I am not. Give it another go though. Eventually you might post something (when it comes to my opinions/viewpoints) that makes sense or atleast jives with what I am saying.

Nobody will ever post anything that jives with what you are saying because every time you are backed into a corner you turn what you were saying around to cover your butt. But heck, I have a few minutes to waste.:laugh:
How in the hell can someone be backed into a corner on a fricken "Discussion Web Site". LOL, now your cracking me up.

And I don't need to get back to you. I've already stated repeatedly, over and over and over and over again, the Noodle wasn't gonna get it done. Why not just keep developing a young QB?

Again, that in no way says that he is a HOF QB or is better that the Noodle as you keep saying that I am saying.

Besides, I am still laughing over the "Backed into the corner" comment. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Marrdro
02-28-2011, 08:31 PM
So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......
Why is this important to you? In the end, coaches coach, players play. If your starter is spending time "Mentoring/Teaching" the younger guys, he isn't getting himself ready to play.

Maybe thats why he sucked so bad last year. He was "Mentoring Webb". LOL

(Now I'm cracking myself up")

The Chiller (QB guru) might not have allowed it. :)

Afterall he wanted a QB that did exactly what he scripted him to do. Never mind the look the defense gives, he wanted HIS play executed as called in. There was very little allowance for audibling. Farve though, did it anyway, which pissed off Childress.
I actually don't think the Chiller restricted TJ as much as most of us think.

Truth of the matter is, there was a few articles in 2008 were he talked about audibles and plays and players understanding the "Lines" first before they could deviate on their own off the "Lines".

Marrdro
02-28-2011, 08:34 PM
That is bullshit and you know it. There was plenty of film of brett going over formation photos with Sage and then showing TJ over away from them standing by himself. If he wanted to be in on the mentoring then maybe he should have sucked it up a bit and went over and asked for it.....
I find it humorous that you call that mentoring and even get so bold as to call it bullshit when someone doesn't use that example as "mentoring".

Quick question, do actually think the Noodle was looking at those pics in an effort to teach Rosencopter?

I don't, I think he and Rosencopter were looking at them in the same regard that any other player in the league does.......Trying to figure out what the hell went right or wrong.

Your full of great stuff today. Sorry I haven't been on long enough to catch all of them. :laugh:

marshallvike
02-28-2011, 08:36 PM
So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......
Why is this important to you? In the end, coaches coach, players play. If your starter is spending time "Mentoring/Teaching" the younger guys, he isn't getting himself ready to play.

Maybe thats why he sucked so bad last year. He was "Mentoring Webb". LOL

(Now I'm cracking myself up")

The Chiller (QB guru) might not have allowed it. :)

Afterall he wanted a QB that did exactly what he scripted him to do. Never mind the look the defense gives, he wanted HIS play executed as called in. There was very little allowance for audibling. Farve though, did it anyway, which pissed off Childress.
I actually don't think the Chiller restricted TJ as much as most of us think.

Truth of the matter is, there was a few articles in 2008 were he talked about audibles and plays and players understanding the "Lines" first before they could deviate on their own off the "Lines".

well, he wouln't even let Brad Johnson audible when he was here. I
think Brad new more about NFL offenses and defenses than anyone on chilly's staff, including baldy, at that time

Marrdro
02-28-2011, 08:52 PM
So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......
Why is this important to you? In the end, coaches coach, players play. If your starter is spending time "Mentoring/Teaching" the younger guys, he isn't getting himself ready to play.

Maybe thats why he sucked so bad last year. He was "Mentoring Webb". LOL

(Now I'm cracking myself up")

The Chiller (QB guru) might not have allowed it. :)

Afterall he wanted a QB that did exactly what he scripted him to do. Never mind the look the defense gives, he wanted HIS play executed as called in. There was very little allowance for audibling. Farve though, did it anyway, which pissed off Childress.
I actually don't think the Chiller restricted TJ as much as most of us think.

Truth of the matter is, there was a few articles in 2008 were he talked about audibles and plays and players understanding the "Lines" first before they could deviate on their own off the "Lines".

well, he wouln't even let Brad Johnson audible when he was here. I
think Brad new more about NFL offenses and defenses than anyone on chilly's staff, including baldy, at that time
You have to remember why he wouldn't. He wanted the team to learn the "Lines" first. To do that, the players needed to run the plays that were called in.

Brad kept audibling out of alot of the plays that required a pass that his arm couldn't make.

I need to go pull that thread, or atleast see if I can find the article again. Basically, he wanted them to follow everything strictly to the letter so that they could learn from their mistakes. If they didn't make the mistakes, they couldn't learn kindof rationale.

marshallvike
02-28-2011, 08:59 PM
So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......
Why is this important to you? In the end, coaches coach, players play. If your starter is spending time "Mentoring/Teaching" the younger guys, he isn't getting himself ready to play.

Maybe thats why he sucked so bad last year. He was "Mentoring Webb". LOL

(Now I'm cracking myself up")

The Chiller (QB guru) might not have allowed it. :)

Afterall he wanted a QB that did exactly what he scripted him to do. Never mind the look the defense gives, he wanted HIS play executed as called in. There was very little allowance for audibling. Farve though, did it anyway, which pissed off Childress.
I actually don't think the Chiller restricted TJ as much as most of us think.

Truth of the matter is, there was a few articles in 2008 were he talked about audibles and plays and players understanding the "Lines" first before they could deviate on their own off the "Lines".

well, he wouln't even let Brad Johnson audible when he was here. I
think Brad new more about NFL offenses and defenses than anyone on chilly's staff, including baldy, at that time
You have to remember why he wouldn't. He wanted the team to learn the "Lines" first. To do that, the players needed to run the plays that were called in.

Brad kept audibling out of alot of the plays that required a pass that his arm couldn't make.

I need to go pull that thread, or atleast see if I can find the article again. Basically, he wanted them to follow everything strictly to the letter so that they could learn from their mistakes. If they didn't make the mistakes, they couldn't learn kindof rationale.

I don't remember Brad audibling much at all. I remember reading at the time he was not happy with the situation with Chilly not allowing audibles. That was when my disdain for Childress was at it's peak. We had a QB that had a great ability to read/react to defenses yet did not allow him to do so.

BTW, you still have the yelll, or did the firewall settings reset

Marrdro
02-28-2011, 09:04 PM
So I noticed you conveniently side stepped the question about whether TJ was mentoring Webb or whether he should have been mentoring Webb?

Just askin......
Why is this important to you? In the end, coaches coach, players play. If your starter is spending time "Mentoring/Teaching" the younger guys, he isn't getting himself ready to play.

Maybe thats why he sucked so bad last year. He was "Mentoring Webb". LOL

(Now I'm cracking myself up")

The Chiller (QB guru) might not have allowed it. :)

Afterall he wanted a QB that did exactly what he scripted him to do. Never mind the look the defense gives, he wanted HIS play executed as called in. There was very little allowance for audibling. Farve though, did it anyway, which pissed off Childress.
I actually don't think the Chiller restricted TJ as much as most of us think.

Truth of the matter is, there was a few articles in 2008 were he talked about audibles and plays and players understanding the "Lines" first before they could deviate on their own off the "Lines".

well, he wouln't even let Brad Johnson audible when he was here. I
think Brad new more about NFL offenses and defenses than anyone on chilly's staff, including baldy, at that time
You have to remember why he wouldn't. He wanted the team to learn the "Lines" first. To do that, the players needed to run the plays that were called in.

Brad kept audibling out of alot of the plays that required a pass that his arm couldn't make.

I need to go pull that thread, or atleast see if I can find the article again. Basically, he wanted them to follow everything strictly to the letter so that they could learn from their mistakes. If they didn't make the mistakes, they couldn't learn kindof rationale.

I don't remember Brad audibling much at all. I remember reading at the time he was not happy with the situation with Chilly not allowing audibles. That was when my disdain for Childress was at it's peak. We had a QB that had a great ability to read/react to defenses yet did not allow him to do so.

BTW, you still have the yelll, or did the firewall settings reset
Naw, the yell is still working. I just haven't had time to chat in it. Getting ready to go home and watch the combine stuff. Looks like the DL are looking good.

Back to Brad. He didn't start restricting him until sometime past mid season when he really started to get frustrated with him.

If memory serves, it was 4 or 5 games before TJ took over that it all started to boil out.