PDA

View Full Version : (Bryant McKinnie and the Vikings' O-line)



Marrdro
12-22-2010, 04:53 PM
2) Upgrade the offensive line. Throw some free agency money and draft picks at the line. Create some serious depth.


Wednesday (Bryant McKinnie and the Vikings' O-line) edition: Wha' Happened?
(http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/112310429.html)
The guys on Sirius were talking about line play and how most fans (and sports hacks) don't have a clue when it comes to it. Here is a prime example.

I wonder what the guy thinks of when he thinks depth? Does he think every team has starters sitting on the bench just waiting to come in?

Hell, for that matter, I wonder if he even knows that 2/5ths of our OL are backups?

I wonder if he knows the difference between who blocks who when it comes to OL play and the other players (RB's, FB's, TE's) involved in that process?

I wonder if he has a clue on how those players figure out who gets who when a stunt happens?

I wonder if he knows how long a RB/FB/TE should stay in and block?

My guess, he doesn't.

In the end, I blame the networks. Because of the limited view we get from the sideline camera angle, all that stuff is missed (and guessed at) by most fans. Hell, I bet its missed by most who are at the game as well.

Until fans start to watch the game instead of following the ball, it will continue to be missed IMHO.

Marrdro inserts shameless plug for Kirwans new book.......

http://images.betterworldbooks.com/160/Take-Your-Eye-Off-the-Ball-Kirwan-Pat-9781600783913.jpg

Marrdro
12-22-2010, 05:02 PM
You're an offensive lineman and it's late in the game.

You're mentally tired. Sweat, snot and spit drips off your face as you look down to see your hand still shaking from when you crushed it in the first quarter. There is probably some nerve damage. Your knees ache, your back hurts so bad it's hard to stand up straight. You wince and feel a burning sensation. Your vision is blurred due to a cut on your forehead from your last collision with some alcoholic 6'5" 320lb War-Daddy running a 4.8, benching 500, and cleaning 401 at 17% body fat who has an outstanding warrant for his arrest, beats his girlfriend regularly and just insulted your mom with words you couldn't understand. His only instructions were to "Get to the ball, and be in a bad mood when you get there!!"




Now the coach calls a timeout and you run over to the sidelines as your teammates yell "Come on! Get it together man!" The fans boo you relentlessly because they didn't drive 3hrs on a Saturday to see you blow the game because of a little headache. You barely make it over to the sideline because you're still dizzy and here comes your "motivational" speech from some wide-eyed 5'8" 280 lb redneck with a wad of chew in his mouth. "What in the heeelllll was that?! Get your ass down, your hands up and punch his @#$!. Didn't you hear the `River call?! They were in a 50 package with a weak side blitz. You know you've got to slide right you big dumb @#$!*! You made a commitment to this team!! Where is your pride son?!! People are counting on you! On YOU!! How can you call yourself an athlete and take that abuse in front of all these people and millions at home? God-bless son, what do your parents think? Get your head in the game!! If you don't want to play, hell, I got three freshman over there that will play for your fat ass!! I'll suit up someone from the stands before I watch you do that crap again!! I'd rather have my little sister out there giving 100% than watch you half-ass it out there because you're tired and you don't want to give the effort. Now get out there and do your job boy!"

So now you get in the huddle and here comes the quarterback with the call: "Larry Left, 90 XY out on Two, on Two. Ready ....BREAK!!

So here's what goes through your head: "90...90....What is 90? That's a 7 step drop. He needs lots of time. Damn my hand hurts! Larry Left. OK, I've got the tight-end on my side so the 7 technique will be wide. The Mike is right and I'm uncovered, so I've got the Sam to the end to the Corner. Easy. Oh crap, they eagled down and War-Daddy is lined up with me, and I don't have help because the other guard has a two technique and the center is uncovered and he has to slide. Better go from a two point stance, this guy is quick."



Football 101:
A Day in the Life
(http://football.calsci.com/ADay.html)
Next to Kirwans book, that has to be the best piece of literature I've found to date on what it takes to be a OLmen.

jargomcfargo
12-22-2010, 05:40 PM
My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's. :)

Caine
12-22-2010, 06:21 PM
My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's. :)

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine

Marrdro
12-22-2010, 06:32 PM
My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

But I don't think its that easy. We saw several on here blame Sully for a missed block when clearly it was AD (he actually turned his back to the blocker) who had the responsibility.

Mr. A, don't want to take away from his knowledge of the line, continues to say our T's are to big cause they get beat by speedier pass rushing DE's. Guess what. All of them do. Thats why teams have them.

Instead of hacking on the T for not being able to signle up on the guy, we should be hacking on the coaches for not giving help. If the right package is in there to give help, we need to hack on the QB for not a) recognizing the threat and adjusting the RB/FB/TE blocking assignment or b) checking out of the play into a run.

Again, our issues we are seeing with our OL aren't new to the league and we aren't the only team having those problems. Last time I checked (3 weeks ago) we were slightly above average with respect to our DVOA rating and that was with Cook in for a good share.

Can't get the site to come up today, but I bet we aren't far off that mark even after Degeare starting a couple of games.


I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's. :)
I try but there are a select few who keep sucking me back in. Bastardo's......:laugh:

Marrdro
12-22-2010, 06:38 PM
My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's. :)

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine
Elicit sympathy......Far from it.

It isn't as easy as saying...."hey, Big Mac missed that guy". Its much more complex than that. The first thing that should be said was....

a. What package was in?
b. Did the package support an option for help?
c. If so, why wasn't help given.

Another train of thought has to go to what the defense did:

a. Did they stunt?
b. Did the DE bull rush or use a deceptive move such as a swim?
c. Did they blitz?
d. If so was it delayed or disguised somehow?
e. Who has the responsibility for reading/recognizing/shifting to that coverage?

Long story longer, very few teams leave thier T's out there signled up on the premier pass rushers (unless of course they are playing against JA).

For some reason the Vikings continue to fail in pass protection and in most cases, it has nothing to do with what the OLmen did or didn't do.

tarkenton10
12-22-2010, 07:50 PM
My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's. :)

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine

McKinnie is a piece of crap. I bet all those people who said he shouldn't pick up Flozell wish we had. I know I do.

Marrdro
12-22-2010, 07:58 PM
McKinnie is a piece of crap. I bet all those people who said he shouldn't pick up Flozell wish we had. I know I do.
I was one who thought he might be done.

Additionally, don't get me wrong, I've been wanting Big Mac gone for the last 3 years and believe we could have better play at C but my whole point in this is that most people look to the OLmen for the cause instead of looking for the solution.

Again, alot of teams have worse OLmen than we do and get by. Our problem is much bigger than those 5 guys.

Caine
12-22-2010, 08:23 PM
My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's. :)

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine
Elicit sympathy......Far from it.

It isn't as easy as saying...."hey, Big Mac missed that guy". Its much more complex than that. The first thing that should be said was....

a. What package was in?
b. Did the package support an option for help?
c. If so, why wasn't help given.

Another train of thought has to go to what the defense did:

a. Did they stunt?
b. Did the DE bull rush or use a deceptive move such as a swim?
c. Did they blitz?
d. If so was it delayed or disguised somehow?
e. Who has the responsibility for reading/recognizing/shifting to that coverage?

Long story longer, very few teams leave thier T's out there signled up on the premier pass rushers (unless of course they are playing against JA).

For some reason the Vikings continue to fail in pass protection and in most cases, it has nothing to do with what the OLmen did or didn't do.

Riiiight......the O-line doesn't dictate pass protection...

uh huh...


and the QB doesn't throw passes either...



and running backs don't actually run the ball....

...only in Marrdroland.

Caine

Marrdro
12-22-2010, 08:32 PM
My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's. :)

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine
Elicit sympathy......Far from it.

It isn't as easy as saying...."hey, Big Mac missed that guy". Its much more complex than that. The first thing that should be said was....

a. What package was in?
b. Did the package support an option for help?
c. If so, why wasn't help given.

Another train of thought has to go to what the defense did:

a. Did they stunt?
b. Did the DE bull rush or use a deceptive move such as a swim?
c. Did they blitz?
d. If so was it delayed or disguised somehow?
e. Who has the responsibility for reading/recognizing/shifting to that coverage?

Long story longer, very few teams leave thier T's out there signled up on the premier pass rushers (unless of course they are playing against JA).

For some reason the Vikings continue to fail in pass protection and in most cases, it has nothing to do with what the OLmen did or didn't do.

Riiiight......the O-line doesn't dictate pass protection...

uh huh...


and the QB doesn't throw passes either...



and running backs don't actually run the ball....

...only in Marrdroland.

Caine
Now your starting to give answers like the Infidel does. B)

Of course the line (actually the Center) makes pre-snap adjustments and line shifts, just like the QB makes pre-snap adjustments and blocking assignments pre-snap.

Again, one more time for possible penetration, that sucks this year.

Look back on my comments starting with the saints game. We were passing out of a 23 set into a 3-8 defense. Not just once, almost the whole game.

Whats up with that?

A FB, 3 TE's against 3 Dlinemen and we are passing out of it?

Caine
12-22-2010, 08:45 PM
My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's. :)

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine
Elicit sympathy......Far from it.

It isn't as easy as saying...."hey, Big Mac missed that guy". Its much more complex than that. The first thing that should be said was....

a. What package was in?
b. Did the package support an option for help?
c. If so, why wasn't help given.

Another train of thought has to go to what the defense did:

a. Did they stunt?
b. Did the DE bull rush or use a deceptive move such as a swim?
c. Did they blitz?
d. If so was it delayed or disguised somehow?
e. Who has the responsibility for reading/recognizing/shifting to that coverage?

Long story longer, very few teams leave thier T's out there signled up on the premier pass rushers (unless of course they are playing against JA).

For some reason the Vikings continue to fail in pass protection and in most cases, it has nothing to do with what the OLmen did or didn't do.

Riiiight......the O-line doesn't dictate pass protection...

uh huh...


and the QB doesn't throw passes either...



and running backs don't actually run the ball....

...only in Marrdroland.

Caine
Now your starting to give answers like the Infidel does. B)

Of course the line (actually the Center) makes pre-snap adjustments and line shifts, just like the QB makes pre-snap adjustments and blocking assignments pre-snap.

Again, one more time for possible penetration, that sucks this year.

Look back on my comments starting with the saints game. We were passing out of a 23 set into a 3-8 defense. Not just once, almost the whole game.

Whats up with that?

A FB, 3 TE's against 3 Dlinemen and we are passing out of it?

1: Look at what we had available. Who were our WR's at that point? Shiancoe has been more of a WR than most of our WR's this season (Which explains a LOT about why I'm so down on that group).

2: Sometimes you go with the unexpected...because it's unexpected.

3: A 3-8 Defense? They had EIGHT DB's back there? I doubt it. More like a 3-4 or a 3-3 nickle...maybe a 3-2 dime. Bottom line is that the 3-4 Defense, played correctly, can be VERY effective versus the run...so a pass can sometimes accomplish what the run cannot.

4: Who was putting in those packages? Oh yeah, your boy, Chiller and his mannequin, Bevell.

Without seeing the specific plays, I can't give you a VALID argument for the play. What were the pre-snap reads? What personell were on the field? What was the location, down, and distance?

But I CAN say, with some degree of certainty, that the O-LINE is responsible for blocking. And when they FAIL, it is USUALLY their fault. Just like when the D-Line get penetration on them when running the ball, it's THEIR fault.

Bottom line, our O-line has underperformed for YEARS. And McKinnie is horrible...and Loadholt appears to be cut from the same cloth. We need a LOT of help on that line.

Caine

Infidel
12-22-2010, 08:52 PM
Caine said:


Without seeing the specific plays, I can't give you a VALID argument for the play. What were the pre-snap reads? What personell were on the field? What was the location, down, and distance?

He knows that.

He's just blowing smoke.

Marrdro's been defending the OL and blaming Favre all season.

Now he starts a thread to promote the myth that he was right.

Ho-hum and yawn.

The OL is crap. They are the Achilles heel of this team and we went down because of them.

Marrdro
12-22-2010, 08:59 PM
Caine said:


Without seeing the specific plays, I can't give you a VALID argument for the play. What were the pre-snap reads? What personell were on the field? What was the location, down, and distance?

He knows that.

He's just blowing smoke.

Marrdro's been defending the OL and blaming Favre all season.

Now he starts a thread to promote the myth that he was right.

Ho-hum and yawn.

The OL is crap. They are the Achilles heel of this team and we went down because of them.
We've made it a whole day, with some good discussions. Lets not bring in the whole Noodle shit again.

And I'm not defending the OL. I have repeatedly said, and provided the stats, that they are avergage at best.

My point in all of this is that it isn't just the OL when it comes to pass protection. Only the lamest of lame can look at whats going on and say something like our T's suck against speedier pass rushers and not take into account the blocking schemes that the other teams use to counter it without asking the question why do we not do the same thing.

Again, pass protection is a mix of two groups....The OL and the recievers and backs. Its pretty silly to try to blame one and not look at the other, unless of course, you don't understand that aspect of the game.

If you don't. Thats OK. Everyone can learn something at one point in time and shouldn't have to resort to calling people names cause they are lacking in that knowledge area.

Infidel
12-22-2010, 09:10 PM
Marrdro said:


Only the lamest of lame can look at whats going on and say something like our T's suck against speedier pass rushers

Then Marrdro said:


Everyone can learn something at one point in time and shouldn't have to resort to calling people names cause they are lacking in that knowledge area.

So why are you calling people who disagree with you "lamest of the lame" and lacking in knowledge?

In doing so, you started namecalling when nobody else in the thread had done it.

Careful.....you're getting back to your same old stuff.

BTW......our OTs suck.....not just against the speedier pass rushers, but against anything tougher than a girl scout.

Every time Favre has been knocked out of a game.....they've been responsible.

Marrdro
12-22-2010, 09:16 PM
1: Look at what we had available. Who were our WR's at that point? Shiancoe has been more of a WR than most of our WR's this season (Which explains a LOT about why I'm so down on that group).

Valid point. You could even expound on that a bit and get into what they do on motions. Do they seal the edge or atleast help the TE or T seal the edge on running plays.

Another thing to watch is thier stem. Do they adjust it to match the QB's drop or do they continue with the original call out of the huddle.

I don't know how many times I've watched this team running a set of deep routes when they should be either checking down to shorter routes by the recievers or backs or running for that matter.

Drives me fricken nuts to see the QB looking deep on an allout blitz.



2: Sometimes you go with the unexpected...because it's unexpected.
I like that. With your permission I might find a use for it.


3: A 3-8 Defense? They had EIGHT DB's back there? I doubt it. More like a 3-4 or a 3-3 nickle...maybe a 3-2 dime. Bottom line is that the 3-4 Defense, played correctly, can be VERY effective versus the run...so a pass can sometimes accomplish what the run cannot.
What? is a 3-4, 3 defensive lineman and 4 DB's? Let me clarify, a 3-8 look is 3 Dlinemen and 8 dropping into coverage and has nothing to do with the traditional 4-3/3-4 scheme designator you see presnap. Its has everything to do with what happens post snap.

The 8 is usually comprised of 4 LB's and 4 DB's usually with press on the outside and help over with the S's.


4: Who was putting in those packages? Oh yeah, your boy, Chiller and his mannequin, Bevell.
See, now we are getting someplace. Starts with the guys in the booth who call out the defensive package coming onto the field (sometimes the key is who goes off). The O-coord pulls up his sheet and sends in a player package and a series of plays that should exploit that package with a primary call coming out of the huddle that is adjusted based off the presnap read by the QB.

(Please don't get all pissy with me cause I mentioned a QB).

Even with the limited reps we saw out of TJ, there seemed to be an issue to me as I charted the games with what they did with those packages based on down/distance/score and time on the clock.



Without seeing the specific plays, I can't give you a VALID argument for the play. What were the pre-snap reads? What personell were on the field? What was the location, down, and distance?

But I CAN say, with some degree of certainty, that the O-LINE is responsible for blocking. And when they FAIL, it is USUALLY their fault. Just like when the D-Line get penetration on them when running the ball, it's THEIR fault.
I think you know this, however, just in case, I actually take game notes. I've taken that a bit further this year and actually have a "chart" that I use to chart the game, much like you do a baseball game.

Trust me when I tell you that I pay particular attention to what package is sent in, and what happens pre and post snap.

My frustration with that process is the coverage the networks give you. They spend way to much time on other things than the player sets coming in and out for me to be as accurate as I want, however, I think it is safe to say I watch the game with a bit different eye than a normal man.

Mars has seen my chart. I will be happy to send it to you if you want to try it out.


Bottom line, our O-line has underperformed for YEARS. And McKinnie is horrible...and Loadholt appears to be cut from the same cloth. We need a LOT of help on that line.

Caine
Bottom line is I agree with you on that point. I am just taking it to the next step and saying that we also have problems in other areas as well and in most cases the OL gets the blame for something that could have been aleviated by a better pre-snap read, a better chip by the back, a bigger TE helping out the T, a G staying at home instead of pulling etc etc etc.

Infidel
12-22-2010, 10:40 PM
...in most cases the OL gets the blame for something that could have been aleviated by a better pre-snap read, a better chip by the back, a bigger TE helping out the T, a G staying at home instead of pulling etc etc etc.

So you're saying that in most cases the OL was not responsible?

"Others" were responsible for the problems?

So how does that agree with Caine when he says....


Bottom line, our O-line has underperformed for YEARS. And McKinnie is horrible...and Loadholt appears to be cut from the same cloth. We need a LOT of help on that line.

You said you agreed with him and then you went ahead and DIS-agreed with him.

Pardon me, but that's just nonsense.

Mr Anderson
12-22-2010, 10:43 PM
My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

But I don't think its that easy. We saw several on here blame Sully for a missed block when clearly it was AD (he actually turned his back to the blocker) who had the responsibility.

Mr. A, don't want to take away from his knowledge of the line, continues to say our T's are to big cause they get beat by speedier pass rushing DE's. Guess what. All of them do. Thats why teams have them.

Instead of hacking on the T for not being able to signle up on the guy, we should be hacking on the coaches for not giving help. If the right package is in there to give help, we need to hack on the QB for not a) recognizing the threat and adjusting the RB/FB/TE blocking assignment or b) checking out of the play into a run.

Again, our issues we are seeing with our OL aren't new to the league and we aren't the only team having those problems. Last time I checked (3 weeks ago) we were slightly above average with respect to our DVOA rating and that was with Cook in for a good share.

Can't get the site to come up today, but I bet we aren't far off that mark even after Degeare starting a couple of games.


I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's. :)
I try but there are a select few who keep sucking me back in. Bastardo's......:laugh:

I don't think they're too big because they get beat, I think they get beat because they're too big... sometimes.

It's obviously not 100% of the time or anything, but I just can't see a function of weighing 340+ pounds like McKinnie and Loadholt do, no matter what they're listed at.

Look at guys like Joe Thomas and Jake Long. Obviously McKinnie isn't as young, healthy, and athletic as those guys are anymore, but even when he was at the stages of his career that they're at now he was too heavy. They're 6'6" 312 and 6'7" 317 respectively, McKinnie is 6'8" 335 and Loadholt is 6'8" 343. They're obviously all massive guys. The difference is, Long and Thomas are visibly leaner... and I actually believe their listed weights. McKinnie and Load are probably heavier than 335 and 343, IMO Loadholt is closer to 360-370 and McKinnie 350.

There's no sense in being that heavy. All it's doing is slowing them down.

You're right that's why speed rushers exist, they're there to run by big tackles, and Mac has proven worse than a lot of guys around the leauge at handling them.{edit: the original made no sense] McKinnie and Loadholt are simply too heavy anyway. NFL defenses are getting faster and smaller, I think they're struggling to keep up. Whether it's if they have to get up field, sustain on a long drive, or get an extra quick jump on that speed rusher they're a step behind. I think Mac and Loadholt could benefit it more ways than just speed by losing weight, I think physically changing their body in order to perform better in their place of work will give them extra motivation to achieve and show their dedication to their teammates and the organization.

Infidel
12-22-2010, 11:02 PM
This would also explain why some of our big fat guys poop out in the fourth quarter.

Both offensive and defensive lines are carrying weight that really only slows them down.

As you watch other teams around the league....the ones that are in condition do stand out. They get tougher in the fourth quarter.

Back to basics would be a good place to start.

I think Childress was so fascinated with his complex offense (overly fascinated and obsessed with said complexity) that basics got lost in the shuffle.

Caine
12-23-2010, 12:06 AM
1: Look at what we had available. Who were our WR's at that point? Shiancoe has been more of a WR than most of our WR's this season (Which explains a LOT about why I'm so down on that group).

Valid point. You could even expound on that a bit and get into what they do on motions. Do they seal the edge or atleast help the TE or T seal the edge on running plays.

Another thing to watch is thier stem. Do they adjust it to match the QB's drop or do they continue with the original call out of the huddle.

I don't know how many times I've watched this team running a set of deep routes when they should be either checking down to shorter routes by the recievers or backs or running for that matter.

Drives me fricken nuts to see the QB looking deep on an allout blitz.



2: Sometimes you go with the unexpected...because it's unexpected.
I like that. With your permission I might find a use for it.


3: A 3-8 Defense? They had EIGHT DB's back there? I doubt it. More like a 3-4 or a 3-3 nickle...maybe a 3-2 dime. Bottom line is that the 3-4 Defense, played correctly, can be VERY effective versus the run...so a pass can sometimes accomplish what the run cannot.
What? is a 3-4, 3 defensive lineman and 4 DB's? Let me clarify, a 3-8 look is 3 Dlinemen and 8 dropping into coverage and has nothing to do with the traditional 4-3/3-4 scheme designator you see presnap. Its has everything to do with what happens post snap.

The 8 is usually comprised of 4 LB's and 4 DB's usually with press on the outside and help over with the S's.


4: Who was putting in those packages? Oh yeah, your boy, Chiller and his mannequin, Bevell.
See, now we are getting someplace. Starts with the guys in the booth who call out the defensive package coming onto the field (sometimes the key is who goes off). The O-coord pulls up his sheet and sends in a player package and a series of plays that should exploit that package with a primary call coming out of the huddle that is adjusted based off the presnap read by the QB.

(Please don't get all pissy with me cause I mentioned a QB).

Even with the limited reps we saw out of TJ, there seemed to be an issue to me as I charted the games with what they did with those packages based on down/distance/score and time on the clock.



Without seeing the specific plays, I can't give you a VALID argument for the play. What were the pre-snap reads? What personell were on the field? What was the location, down, and distance?

But I CAN say, with some degree of certainty, that the O-LINE is responsible for blocking. And when they FAIL, it is USUALLY their fault. Just like when the D-Line get penetration on them when running the ball, it's THEIR fault.
I think you know this, however, just in case, I actually take game notes. I've taken that a bit further this year and actually have a "chart" that I use to chart the game, much like you do a baseball game.

Trust me when I tell you that I pay particular attention to what package is sent in, and what happens pre and post snap.

My frustration with that process is the coverage the networks give you. They spend way to much time on other things than the player sets coming in and out for me to be as accurate as I want, however, I think it is safe to say I watch the game with a bit different eye than a normal man.

Mars has seen my chart. I will be happy to send it to you if you want to try it out.


Bottom line, our O-line has underperformed for YEARS. And McKinnie is horrible...and Loadholt appears to be cut from the same cloth. We need a LOT of help on that line.

Caine
Bottom line is I agree with you on that point. I am just taking it to the next step and saying that we also have problems in other areas as well and in most cases the OL gets the blame for something that could have been aleviated by a better pre-snap read, a better chip by the back, a bigger TE helping out the T, a G staying at home instead of pulling etc etc etc.

I'm going to simplify this a bit...

My 3-4 comment was designed to separate Linebackers from DB's...for a very specific reason. A WR on a LB is a mismatch...and so too is a TE on a LB, typically. If a QB sees that mismatch, he's going to check out of run and try and exploit it almost every time...because it's an EASY exploit.

Usually.

By calling a Defense a 3-8, you fail to take into account the potential for LB/WR mismatches. A better indicator is whether or not the Defense is in standard, nickel, or dime coverage, because as the number of DB's goes up, the likelihood of a favorable mismatch goes down (Unless the DB's are Viking DB's, in which case it doesn't matter...feel free to throw)

Finally, no one disputes the fact that other elements are also contributing to poor O-line play. Our receivers have had difficulty getting open for YEARS...whether due to poor play calling, poor route running, or just a flat out lack of speed, I don't know. And no one will ever mistake Shiancoe for Kleinsasser when it comes to blocking.

But that takes us back to doing the unexpected BECAUSE it's unexpected...if we telegraph every play by parking Kleinsasser opposite their speed guy we're giving up a receiver and losing a man to stop 1 player (we're now at -3).

What I mean is that we're at -1 if they rush 4 (5 O-Line versus 4 D-Line puts us at -1). We're at another -1 for having a QB...that puts us at -2, giving them 2 more guys to cover or blitz.

By putting Kleinie in to bail out McKinnie or Loadholt, we're now -3.

At that point, our passing game is seriously handicapped.

Our O-line SHOULD be good enough to force teams to bring 4 or MORE to try and get to our QB...but they aren't. They give up sacks to 4 and 3 man rushes. They get knocked off the line by run blitzes.

Bottom line is that while our O-line isn't the ONLY flaw in the mix, it may very well be the biggest outside of the QB position as they appear unable to stand up under ANY conditions.

Caine

ejmat
12-23-2010, 04:28 AM
I will be the first to say I'm not an expert on OL play. One thing I miss about John Madden calling play by play. I learned a lot of football from him. People thought he was annoying but IMO he was one of the best announcers in the game.

To the topic....

As much of an expert I am not, I'm also not blind as to the problems the Vikings have. Let's just go one by one:

1) McKinnie - I think most of you now how I feel about him. I think he is a fat, lazy piece of blubber that is over-rated and lives off of his college reputation even after all of these years. He blocks okay on run plays but he is one of hte worst when it comes to pass protection. Ask Favre. He can tell you.

2) Hutch - One of the best but unfortunately he's on IR. So let's go with DeGeare. I can't say much about him because I've only really seen him play one game. Let's just say I wasn't impressed from what I did see. Again, I didn't see much.

3) Sully - I'm torn. I don't think he picks things up very well. Not like I am used to seeing with guys like Jeff Christy and Matt Birk. Sully hasn't picked it up like those two. Plus, I'm worried about his snapping abilities.

4) Herrera - Average at best and also on IR. Therefore let's go with Ryan "False Start" Cook. Cook happens to be one of the weakest OLmen in the league. DLmen seem to be able to push him around at times like he is a rag doll. He has had his good plays though so I can't destroy him all that much. But there's more bad than good.

5) Loadholt - After his rookie season I was very excited about his play. Then I believe he spent too much time with Bryant McKinnie because he's now about as lazy as he is. Plus his false starts and other penalties haven't exactly impressed this year.

Therefore, all in all this OL really showed it's true colors when Webb was in there. Webb barely had time to even receive the snap. Pretty sad if you ask me. When he was given protection he seemed to throw pretty well but unfortunately it didn't happen often against the Bores.

Purple Floyd
12-23-2010, 04:55 AM
My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

But I don't think its that easy. We saw several on here blame Sully for a missed block when clearly it was AD (he actually turned his back to the blocker) who had the responsibility.

Mr. A, don't want to take away from his knowledge of the line, continues to say our T's are to big cause they get beat by speedier pass rushing DE's. Guess what. All of them do. Thats why teams have them.

Instead of hacking on the T for not being able to signle up on the guy, we should be hacking on the coaches for not giving help. If the right package is in there to give help, we need to hack on the QB for not a) recognizing the threat and adjusting the RB/FB/TE blocking assignment or b) checking out of the play into a run.

Again, our issues we are seeing with our OL aren't new to the league and we aren't the only team having those problems. Last time I checked (3 weeks ago) we were slightly above average with respect to our DVOA rating and that was with Cook in for a good share.

Can't get the site to come up today, but I bet we aren't far off that mark even after Degeare starting a couple of games.


I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's. :)
I try but there are a select few who keep sucking me back in. Bastardo's......:laugh:

I don't think they're too big because they get beat, I think they get beat because they're too big... sometimes.

It's obviously not 100% of the time or anything, but I just can't see a function of weighing 340+ pounds like McKinnie and Loadholt do, no matter what they're listed at.

Look at guys like Joe Thomas and Jake Long. Obviously McKinnie isn't as young, healthy, and athletic as those guys are anymore, but even when he was at the stages of his career that they're at now he was too heavy. They're 6'6" 312 and 6'7" 317 respectively, McKinnie is 6'8" 335 and Loadholt is 6'8" 343. They're obviously all massive guys. The difference is, Long and Thomas are visibly leaner... and I actually believe their listed weights. McKinnie and Load are probably heavier than 335 and 343, IMO Loadholt is closer to 360-370 and McKinnie 350.

There's no sense in being that heavy. All it's doing is slowing them down.

You're right that's why speed rushers exist, they're there to run by big tackles, and Mac has proven worse than a lot of guys around the leauge at handling them.{edit: the original made no sense] McKinnie and Loadholt are simply too heavy anyway. NFL defenses are getting faster and smaller, I think they're struggling to keep up. Whether it's if they have to get up field, sustain on a long drive, or get an extra quick jump on that speed rusher they're a step behind. I think Mac and Loadholt could benefit it more ways than just speed by losing weight, I think physically changing their body in order to perform better in their place of work will give them extra motivation to achieve and show their dedication to their teammates and the organization.

I pretty much track with those two the same as you but I have also been leaning towards the idea of the unit being out of balance in their size.

Basically the thought is that in the league we have seen teams like the Cowboys and Redskins be very successful with massive(for the time) linemen and we have also seen teams with smaller, more nimble linemen like the niners under Walsh and the Broncos under Shanahan that could also win championships so we know that you can be successful with either of them.

However, when you try to combine the huge Tackles that are matched up against the smaller, faster defensive ends, average sized guards and then a small center who is going up against the heaviest defender (DT). So with this group we can't dominate teams with our size because the middle is too small to overpower the defense and the outside is not agile enough to allow us to use finess.

I would really like to see what we do with the offense in the offseason and hopefully we will get a coach and a GM who will look at the roster more comprehensively and put together a unit that can function well as a group and that will go a long ways toward the whole offense looking better. But My guess is we are probably 3 or more years away from even sniffing the playoffs and half a decade at best from even thinking about winning the division and contending at a higher level-And that is if we have a best case scenario.

ultravikingfan
12-23-2010, 05:36 AM
My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's. :)

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine

Great post Caine.

True, us as fans do not fully comprehend the complexities of the O-Line blocking scheme. We can only see the end result. It seems more like a chess match; sometimes your moves beat the other teams move and sometimes they do not.

Some others here like to throw out complete drivel in hopes that they appear that they know what they are talking about. Fact is, we are not in the film sessions, practices nor do we have the understanding of all that is required of an Offensive Line scheme. Most here are not fooled either and people like Del (our brother) would have easily rammed it in people's asspipes around here for such uneducated talk.

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 03:36 PM
Marrdro said:


Only the lamest of lame can look at whats going on and say something like our T's suck against speedier pass rushers

Then Marrdro said:


Everyone can learn something at one point in time and shouldn't have to resort to calling people names cause they are lacking in that knowledge area.

So why are you calling people who disagree with you "lamest of the lame" and lacking in knowledge?

In doing so, you started namecalling when nobody else in the thread had done it.

Careful.....you're getting back to your same old stuff.

What can I say. You seem to bring out the worst in me. Hell, it appears you bring out the worst in almost everyone on here. Seems like there is a trend.

I don't think I need to be carefull my friend.


BTW......our OTs suck.....not just against the speedier pass rushers, but against anything tougher than a girl scout.

Every time Favre has been knocked out of a game.....they've been responsible.
Again, you are just looking at the T's. Were was the TE or RB help on those plays if the T was so overmatched?

Comeon, for one second just think about it logically for once. The staff watches tape. They know who they are going against. They know who on those teams are gonna beat our players, in this case or T's.

Every team out there does the same analysis and comes up with a game plan to negate those types of one on one matchups. For some reason the Vikings can't seem to figure out how to help a T for goodness sake.

On a side note. I still say you don't even watch the Vikings let alone other teams. Your post above just cements it for me.

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 03:44 PM
Some others here like to throw out complete drivel in hopes that they appear that they know what they are talking about.
Or maybe they do.....

Are you trying to say that T's don't get help?

Are you saying that our RB's block/pick up the blitz without flaw?

Are you saying that our G's pull when they shouldn't?

Are you saying our QB's don't hold the ball to long?

Comeon, it isn't like you need to be an NFL coach to see this stuff happening.


Fact is, we are not in the film sessions, practices nor do we have the understanding of all that is required of an Offensive Line scheme. Most here are not fooled either and people like Del (our brother) would have easily rammed it in people's asspipes around here for such uneducated talk.
Uneducated talk my ass......

Truth of the matter is I bet Del would enjoy having this discussion and wouldn't ram it into anyone asspipes.

One of the last posts I shared with Del was related to the same topic and he was gonna send me some stuff to help me break the line play down better based on the limited angles we see.

Never once did I see him shove anything down anyones ass pipe as you contend. Whem Del shoved something down someones ass pipe it was for belittling someones attempt at having a logical discusion about the game.

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 04:00 PM
I don't think they're too big because they get beat, I think they get beat because they're too big... sometimes.

It's obviously not 100% of the time or anything, but I just can't see a function of weighing 340+ pounds like McKinnie and Loadholt do, no matter what they're listed at.

Look at guys like Joe Thomas and Jake Long. Obviously McKinnie isn't as young, healthy, and athletic as those guys are anymore, but even when he was at the stages of his career that they're at now he was too heavy. They're 6'6" 312 and 6'7" 317 respectively, McKinnie is 6'8" 335 and Loadholt is 6'8" 343. They're obviously all massive guys. The difference is, Long and Thomas are visibly leaner... and I actually believe their listed weights. McKinnie and Load are probably heavier than 335 and 343, IMO Loadholt is closer to 360-370 and McKinnie 350.

I was hoping you would join in. You seem to be on target alot of the time when it comes to line play.

Quick question. Why do you think the staff wanted bigger T's than most teams? I think its the same answer for why the wanted small G's/C's (if you can call them small).

To support the run more than the pass. A smaller quicker G' can get outside of the T and help seal for those outside plays while the T adds the beef to seal on his own if the C can't hold the middle.

Problem for us is although the team appears to be built to run more than pass we seem to be a passing team lately.


There's no sense in being that heavy. All it's doing is slowing them down.
In the passing game, but not in the running game.

I think if you look at were our production is, you will have to agree that its off left end/left T.



LEFT END LEFT TACKLE MID/GUARD RIGHT TACKLE RIGHT END
10 MIN 4.76 9 4.50 12 4.33 10 3.62 25 3.90 18

Football Outsiders (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol)

That means Big Mac is more than sufficient in the run and someone is getting over there (either a TE or a G) helping him on the outside.


You're right that's why speed rushers exist, they're there to run by big tackles, and Mac has proven worse than a lot of guys around the leauge at handling them.{edit: the original made no sense] McKinnie and Loadholt are simply too heavy anyway. NFL defenses are getting faster and smaller, I think they're struggling to keep up. Whether it's if they have to get up field, sustain on a long drive, or get an extra quick jump on that speed rusher they're a step behind. I think Mac and Loadholt could benefit it more ways than just speed by losing weight, I think physically changing their body in order to perform better in their place of work will give them extra motivation to achieve and show their dedication to their teammates and the organization.
I think Mac and Load would benifit from having a bit more help and if the team would run alot more than it does.

In short, they seem to be very production in the running game but need help in the passing game.

Again that rational is based on the belief that I think this team was built to run more than throw.


Of course, I'm not a coach and aren't in the film sessions so I must be just talking out my ass.........(Sorry, the Hammers post is still irking me a bit. :laugh: )

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 04:07 PM
This would also explain why some of our big fat guys poop out in the fourth quarter.

Both offensive and defensive lines are carrying weight that really only slows them down.

As you watch other teams around the league....the ones that are in condition do stand out. They get tougher in the fourth quarter.

Back to basics would be a good place to start.

I think Childress was so fascinated with his complex offense (overly fascinated and obsessed with said complexity) that basics got lost in the shuffle.
I like the "Poop" out discussion point. I've never really thought about that one. I will watch this weekend and see if I can see effects of that.

What I'm not so sure about is the "Complexity" of it all.

The Zone Blocking scheme is alot more complex than a traditional "Man up/Helmet on Helmet" blocking scheme and they seem to have a handle on that as our backs seem to be productive in that area.

If you mean getting back to "Dinking and Dunking" and away from a more vertical threat, then yes, I like the "Back to Basics" idea. Again, that appears to be what this team was designed to do, not go vertical all the time.

Again, the T's seem to be able handle thier guy for a shorter period but fail when it gets to the longer routes.

Percy is most effective in the shorter 1, 2, and 4 routes and El Syd isn't a speedster designed to flat out burn someon on a 7, 8 or 9 route. He is more suited for the intermediate stuff, 3, 5, and 6 routes.

Of course, I'm still not in the film sessions and might be just talking out my ass/spewing forth drivel as Ultra contends.:P

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 04:22 PM
I'm going to simplify this a bit...

My 3-4 comment was designed to separate Linebackers from DB's...for a very specific reason. A WR on a LB is a mismatch...and so too is a TE on a LB, typically. If a QB sees that mismatch, he's going to check out of run and try and exploit it almost every time...because it's an EASY exploit.

Usually.

By calling a Defense a 3-8, you fail to take into account the potential for LB/WR mismatches. A better indicator is whether or not the Defense is in standard, nickel, or dime coverage, because as the number of DB's goes up, the likelihood of a favorable mismatch goes down (Unless the DB's are Viking DB's, in which case it doesn't matter...feel free to throw)

Alright, that makes better sense to me than your first comment. Just one followon discussion point though.

In a 23 (1 RB/1 FB/3 TE's) or 22 (1 RB/1 FB/2 TE's) set you don't have many WR/LB mismatches.

Again, not in the film session and I'm not a coach and don't meet the criteria Ultra has laid out to have this discussion, however, a 23 leaves you with 1 WR on the field and a 22 leaves you with 2.

Again, not a coach, but it doesn't take one to know that if you rush 3 and drop everyone else into zones, you aren't gonna get many favorable matchups with those offensive sets against that defensive scheme.



Finally, no one disputes the fact that other elements are also contributing to poor O-line play.
Well, Ultra did. He actually called it drivel. Cut me to the quick my friend. Cut me deep.



Our receivers have had difficulty getting open for YEARS...whether due to poor play calling, poor route running, or just a flat out lack of speed, I don't know. And no one will ever mistake Shiancoe for Kleinsasser when it comes to blocking.
They didn't last year, especially when you had all 3 on the field. Goes back to my point about how bad we missed El Syd.

Probably why the staff tried to land Vincent Jackson and settled for Pats Randy. This passing attack needs to exploit all 3 zones, not 1 or two.

And you need to start in the shorter zones first to negate the pass rush/flooded gaps I am speaking about that is our problem.

But that takes us back to doing the unexpected BECAUSE it's unexpected...if we telegraph every play by parking Kleinsasser opposite their speed guy we're giving up a receiver and losing a man to stop 1 player (we're now at -3).


What I mean is that we're at -1 if they rush 4 (5 O-Line versus 4 D-Line puts us at -1). We're at another -1 for having a QB...that puts us at -2, giving them 2 more guys to cover or blitz.

By putting Kleinie in to bail out McKinnie or Loadholt, we're now -3.

At that point, our passing game is seriously handicapped.

Our O-line SHOULD be good enough to force teams to bring 4 or MORE to try and get to our QB...but they aren't. They give up sacks to 4 and 3 man rushes. They get knocked off the line by run blitzes.
I agree, but it is only when you are trying to get the ball to recievers running 5, 7, 8 and 9 routes.

Again, if you go ahead and put a 11(1 RB/1 TE) or 10 (1 RB/0 TE)set in you spread them out and force them to bring in nickle and dime packages you can then hit the quicker routes and even run without having to help your T's but only if you hit the quicker routes.

Later, as the defense quits flooding the gaps, and blitzing less, you can then start hitting the intermediate and deeper routes, much like we saw last year.


Bottom line is that while our O-line isn't the ONLY flaw in the mix, it may very well be the biggest outside of the QB position as they appear unable to stand up under ANY conditions.

Caine
Agree, but you have to look at the other side of the ball as well. Why isn't our defense doing this? We saw it a couple of times against Cutler and we were very successfull.

If we could 3 and out a few more times, maybe our big boys would get "Pooped" as our good friend the Infidel pointed out. Something I'm gonna watch this weekend by the way.

Infidel
12-23-2010, 04:39 PM
If you mean getting back to "Dinking and Dunking" and away from a more vertical threat, then yes, I like the "Back to Basics" idea. Again, that appears to be what this team was designed to do, not go vertical all the time.

You don't really listen.....you just start typing.

Back to the basics means what Jackie Chan did with the kid in the new Karate Kid movie.

He started training him to be a champion by having him hang up his jacket over and over again for many days.

That's what most of the players on this team need.

Now think before you start typing.

Champions are made by first changing their attitude.....then attaining physical fitness.....and only then teaching skills.

It takes a coach.

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 04:40 PM
I will be the first to say I'm not an expert on OL play. One thing I miss about John Madden calling play by play. I learned a lot of football from him. People thought he was annoying but IMO he was one of the best announcers in the game.

Don't let the Hammer fool ya my friend. It isn't that complex. Quick note, check out Tim Ryan (usually does 49'rs games), Greg Pappa (does the Giants stuff) and Solomon Wilcots (Does west coast games).

They are very good at not only calling the game, they actually point out little details when it comes to line play........"T had his head on the DE's left shoulder instead of right", "G pulled to soon", "RB should have cut to the B instead of C gap" kindof stuff.

Tim Ryan helped with Kirwans book in that he read it aloud and they recorded him and Kirwan talking about some of the stuff Kirwan wrote. If you get the book, definately get the discs with it as you get all the extra stuff about the nuances of the game, especially line play.


To the topic....


As much of an expert I am not, I'm also not blind as to the problems the Vikings have. Let's just go one by one:

1) McKinnie - I think most of you now how I feel about him. I think he is a fat, lazy piece of blubber that is over-rated and lives off of his college reputation even after all of these years. He blocks okay on run plays but he is one of hte worst when it comes to pass protection. Ask Favre. He can tell you.
Agree. I will count this as validation that he was drafted to support the run first and pass protection second and when you talk pass protection he is there to support the quicker dinks/dunks normally associated with the WCO and will suck in his efforts to protect during the vertical passing schemes.


2) Hutch - One of the best but unfortunately he's on IR. So let's go with DeGeare. I can't say much about him because I've only really seen him play one game. Let's just say I wasn't impressed from what I did see. Again, I didn't see much.
Stick with Hutch first. Better in the run than the pass. I see him blow alot of pass protections.

Degeare I think is cut of the same mold. Some of the mistakes, by the way, are mistakes one would expect to see from a kid starting before he is ready to start.


3) Sully - I'm torn. I don't think he picks things up very well. Not like I am used to seeing with guys like Jeff Christy and Matt Birk. Sully hasn't picked it up like those two. Plus, I'm worried about his snapping abilities.
I worry that Sully is to light, however, he did pretty good against alot of 3-4 NT's last year and this year.

Remember how Hutch and Herrera admitted that they had issues last year cause they were trying to help Sully out?

I attribute the poor snaps to him hurring that process in an attempt to help out Degeare as we didn't see that out of him with Hutch in there. Might be helping Cook out as well. Remember, they are both backups.


4) Herrera - Average at best and also on IR. Therefore let's go with Ryan "False Start" Cook. Cook happens to be one of the weakest OLmen in the league. DLmen seem to be able to push him around at times like he is a rag doll. He has had his good plays though so I can't destroy him all that much. But there's more bad than good.
I actually like Herrera when he is used as a pulling G. Seems to be his forte.

Don't know if I agree on Cook. How many false starts has he had this year (hes played alot of snaps). I think he is a damn servicable backup that will never be considered a reliable starter. Think about it. How bad would our OL be ranked this year without him?


5) Loadholt - After his rookie season I was very excited about his play. Then I believe he spent too much time with Bryant McKinnie because he's now about as lazy as he is. Plus his false starts and other penalties haven't exactly impressed this year.
A down year for sure, but is that because Herrera isn't next to him and Cook is? Mix is that teams now have alot of tape on him.

I think he will be fine and could possibly even move over to LT.


Therefore, all in all this OL really showed it's true colors when Webb was in there. Webb barely had time to even receive the snap. Pretty sad if you ask me. When he was given protection he seemed to throw pretty well but unfortunately it didn't happen often against the Bores.
Same line that your not cutting TJ some slack for playing behind......:P

I agree though, but was it only the line. What about the Backs and TE's? What about the player sets sent in by the coaching staff?

As I said, our OL needs help, and it starts with what the coaches are trying to do, gets to what the package is sent in, goes into what happens pre-snap and leads up to execution of that whole process.

In most instances, its not the OLmen that is at fault. All I'm saying.

By the way, your analysis is pretty good for not understanding line play. B)

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 04:44 PM
I pretty much track with those two the same as you but I have also been leaning towards the idea of the unit being out of balance in their size.

Basically the thought is that in the league we have seen teams like the Cowboys and Redskins be very successful with massive(for the time) linemen and we have also seen teams with smaller, more nimble linemen like the niners under Walsh and the Broncos under Shanahan that could also win championships so we know that you can be successful with either of them.

However, when you try to combine the huge Tackles that are matched up against the smaller, faster defensive ends, average sized guards and then a small center who is going up against the heaviest defender (DT). So with this group we can't dominate teams with our size because the middle is too small to overpower the defense and the outside is not agile enough to allow us to use finess.

I would really like to see what we do with the offense in the offseason and hopefully we will get a coach and a GM who will look at the roster more comprehensively and put together a unit that can function well as a group and that will go a long ways toward the whole offense looking better. But My guess is we are probably 3 or more years away from even sniffing the playoffs and half a decade at best from even thinking about winning the division and contending at a higher level-And that is if we have a best case scenario.
Damn fine post my friend. Its gotta be the new avatar. :laugh:

I think I tried to explain this to Mr. A. I think we are bigger in the T area and smaller as you go in to support movement by the G's and C in support of the running game/Zone blocking scheme.

Problem is, we seem to be always in a passing mode and when we do that, we aren't hitting the shorter/quicker routes which is were we see our T's struggle.

Again, great post.

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 04:48 PM
If you mean getting back to "Dinking and Dunking" and away from a more vertical threat, then yes, I like the "Back to Basics" idea. Again, that appears to be what this team was designed to do, not go vertical all the time.

You don't really listen.....you just start typing.

Back to the basics means what Jackie Chan did with the kid in the new Karate Kid movie.

He started training him to be a champion by having him hang up his jacket over and over again for many days.

That's what most of the players on this team need.

Now think before you start typing.

Champions are made by first changing their attitude.....then attaining physical fitness.....and only then teaching skills.

It takes a coach.
I give you player sets, blocking schemes, defensive sets and schemes and you give me Chan. LOL, well played. :laugh:


In short you don't mean.....


getting back to "Dinking and Dunking" and away from a more vertical threat

You want an attitude change.....Wasn't that supposed to come from the HC'ing change?

You want Physical fitness.....Wow, a little late in the season to start conditioning drills.

You want coaching......Again, isn't that supposed to be a byproduct of the coaching change?

I would think it would be easier to run the ball more and throw shorter faster routes, but hey, thats just me.

Caine
12-23-2010, 04:53 PM
I pretty much track with those two the same as you but I have also been leaning towards the idea of the unit being out of balance in their size.

Basically the thought is that in the league we have seen teams like the Cowboys and Redskins be very successful with massive(for the time) linemen and we have also seen teams with smaller, more nimble linemen like the niners under Walsh and the Broncos under Shanahan that could also win championships so we know that you can be successful with either of them.

However, when you try to combine the huge Tackles that are matched up against the smaller, faster defensive ends, average sized guards and then a small center who is going up against the heaviest defender (DT). So with this group we can't dominate teams with our size because the middle is too small to overpower the defense and the outside is not agile enough to allow us to use finess.

I would really like to see what we do with the offense in the offseason and hopefully we will get a coach and a GM who will look at the roster more comprehensively and put together a unit that can function well as a group and that will go a long ways toward the whole offense looking better. But My guess is we are probably 3 or more years away from even sniffing the playoffs and half a decade at best from even thinking about winning the division and contending at a higher level-And that is if we have a best case scenario.
Damn fine post my friend. Its gotta be the new avatar. :laugh:

I think I tried to explain this to Mr. A. I think we are bigger in the T area and smaller as you go in to support movement by the G's and C in support of the running game/Zone blocking scheme.

Problem is, we seem to be always in a passing mode and when we do that, we aren't hitting the shorter/quicker routes which is were we see our T's struggle.

Again, great post.

Then the problem is the Tackles. If they are unable to hold their blocks long enough to let the longer routes develop, then THEY are the weak link.

Our Receivers can only get there so fast. The QB can only throw it if it's there. The TACKLES - and the rest of the line - are supposed to buy them the time to make that happen.

Ours don't. Not consistently. Not against good teams.

That, to me, doesn't indicate a problem with coaching - we have one, but that's not the indicator I use. That indicates a problem with our Linemen.

If 5 guys can't stop 4 from getting to the QB, then those 5 guys need to be replaced with 5 who can.

I'm not blaming them for blitzes - some they should pick up, some the RB or TE should chip on - but if the standard 4 man front is getting home, and they were with Chicago - then the LINE ITSELF is the problem.

Our line sucks.

Caine

Infidel
12-23-2010, 05:13 PM
If you mean getting back to "Dinking and Dunking" and away from a more vertical threat, then yes, I like the "Back to Basics" idea. Again, that appears to be what this team was designed to do, not go vertical all the time.

You don't really listen.....you just start typing.

Back to the basics means what Jackie Chan did with the kid in the new Karate Kid movie.

He started training him to be a champion by having him hang up his jacket over and over again for many days.

That's what most of the players on this team need.

Now think before you start typing.

Champions are made by first changing their attitude.....then attaining physical fitness.....and only then teaching skills.

It takes a coach.

Marrdro said:
You want an attitude change.....Wasn't that supposed to come from the HC'ing change?

You want Physical fitness.....Wow, a little late in the season to start conditioning drills.

You want coaching......Again, isn't that supposed to be a byproduct of the coaching change?



The coaching change was a few weeks ago.....building a team takes years.

You seem to have a problem with instant gratification.....sort of like the kid Jackie Chan was training.

Like the typical "fan," you want your team perfect and you want it RIGHT NOW!

You probably need to hang up your jacket over and over for many days to learn some wisdom and discipline.

Gonna take time, my friend......and we still don't even know if we have a coach.

Relax.....we'll see results in a couple of years if the coach can coach.

ultravikingfan
12-23-2010, 05:23 PM
Some others here like to throw out complete drivel in hopes that they appear that they know what they are talking about.
Or maybe they do.....

Are you trying to say that T's don't get help?

Are you saying that our RB's block/pick up the blitz without flaw?

Are you saying that our G's pull when they shouldn't?

Are you saying our QB's don't hold the ball to long?

Comeon, it isn't like you need to be an NFL coach to see this stuff happening.


Fact is, we are not in the film sessions, practices nor do we have the understanding of all that is required of an Offensive Line scheme. Most here are not fooled either and people like Del (our brother) would have easily rammed it in people's asspipes around here for such uneducated talk.
Uneducated talk my ass......

Truth of the matter is I bet Del would enjoy having this discussion and wouldn't ram it into anyone asspipes.

One of the last posts I shared with Del was related to the same topic and he was gonna send me some stuff to help me break the line play down better based on the limited angles we see.

Never once did I see him shove anything down anyones ass pipe as you contend. Whem Del shoved something down someones ass pipe it was for belittling someones attempt at having a logical discusion about the game.

I never mentioned names, did I?

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 05:28 PM
I never mentioned names, did I?
You know I still love ya.....Just as much as I miss Del.B)

marstc09
12-23-2010, 05:37 PM
Don't have a clue? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Child please. I see with my own eyes everyone on that OL getting owned. This has nopthing to do with FB, RB, etc. I see those guys fucking up too.

Moral of the story is they all suck ass. Stop making lame ass excuses for their pathetic performance this year.

marstc09
12-23-2010, 05:41 PM
My guess is even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection.
He may not know what the assignment was or who missed their block, but it's readily apparent when the protection scheme fails.

Occasionally you can place individual blame, say when someone blows by McKinnie for a sack. But mostly the line has to function as a unit without any mistakes, including tight end blocking and backs blocking.

Onre example of your point would be a game 2 years ago when the linebacker came straight up the middle on a delayed blitz, untouched, twice.

Some blamed the center who blocked to the right on the tackle in both instances. But it could be the running backs responsibility to pick up that delayed blitz, which he failed to do on both occasions. We will never know.

What we do know is this O-Line fails to function well as a unit consistantly.

I believe , like Mr.Anderson, both tackles need to lose a little weight and come to camp in shape and properly motivated.
I would like to replace the center and right guard, and drill the heck out of Schiancoe and Peterson on reading blitzes and blocking.

I like these threads you are starting discussing football much more than the pointless debate about QB's. :)

I agree that while I - like most fans - don't fully comprehend who blocks who in what situatiuon on every play, for every package, and in every situation, I can CERTAINLY tell when McKinnie lets his guy beat him...AGAIN. In fact, both of the crushing hits that put Favre out were from McKinnie's guys. In both cases he couldn't stay with them and gave them a shove to try and slow them down.

In both cases, it failed miserably.

While I would no doubt find Kirwan's book interesting, if this is designed to somehow elicit sympathy from me for a guy who will make more money this year than I will in my ENTIRE LIFE for his inability to perform up to expectations, then it will fail.

I realize that our O-line does not play well. It hasn't for YEARS. Singer and I used to comment on that repeatedly back in the day. I have heard many O-line "experts" say that we have the wrong guys for the scheme we play...and that may be (And if so, is yet ANOTHER in the LONG list of Chiller's failures).

But, as Jargo says, "even the most casual observer can tell when the line does a poor job in protection"...and we've all observed it, repeatedly.

The question now becomes, "What is the next HC going to DO about it?"

Caine
Elicit sympathy......Far from it.

It isn't as easy as saying...."hey, Big Mac missed that guy". Its much more complex than that. The first thing that should be said was....

a. What package was in?
b. Did the package support an option for help?
c. If so, why wasn't help given.

Another train of thought has to go to what the defense did:

a. Did they stunt?
b. Did the DE bull rush or use a deceptive move such as a swim?
c. Did they blitz?
d. If so was it delayed or disguised somehow?
e. Who has the responsibility for reading/recognizing/shifting to that coverage?

Long story longer, very few teams leave thier T's out there signled up on the premier pass rushers (unless of course they are playing against JA).

For some reason the Vikings continue to fail in pass protection and in most cases, it has nothing to do with what the OLmen did or didn't do.

Riiiight......the O-line doesn't dictate pass protection...

uh huh...


and the QB doesn't throw passes either...



and running backs don't actually run the ball....

...only in Marrdroland.

Caine

I guess the book is not helping.

marstc09
12-23-2010, 05:44 PM
Caine said:


Without seeing the specific plays, I can't give you a VALID argument for the play. What were the pre-snap reads? What personell were on the field? What was the location, down, and distance?

He knows that.

He's just blowing smoke.

Marrdro's been defending the OL and blaming Favre all season.

Now he starts a thread to promote the myth that he was right.

Ho-hum and yawn.

The OL is crap. They are the Achilles heel of this team and we went down because of them.

I find it hilarious that he is trying to save face after his "mobile QB will solve the OL issues" statement. It is quite obvious to any great football mind that the blocking failed this year.

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 05:47 PM
If you mean getting back to "Dinking and Dunking" and away from a more vertical threat, then yes, I like the "Back to Basics" idea. Again, that appears to be what this team was designed to do, not go vertical all the time.

You don't really listen.....you just start typing.

Back to the basics means what Jackie Chan did with the kid in the new Karate Kid movie.

He started training him to be a champion by having him hang up his jacket over and over again for many days.

That's what most of the players on this team need.

Now think before you start typing.

Champions are made by first changing their attitude.....then attaining physical fitness.....and only then teaching skills.

It takes a coach.

Marrdro said:
You want an attitude change.....Wasn't that supposed to come from the HC'ing change?

You want Physical fitness.....Wow, a little late in the season to start conditioning drills.

You want coaching......Again, isn't that supposed to be a byproduct of the coaching change?



The coaching change was a few weeks ago.....building a team takes years.

You seem to have a problem with instant gratification.....sort of like the kid Jackie Chan was training.

Like the typical "fan," you want your team perfect and you want it RIGHT NOW!

You probably need to hang up your jacket over and over for many days to learn some wisdom and discipline.

Gonna take time, my friend......and we still don't even know if we have a coach.

Relax.....we'll see results in a couple of years if the coach can coach.
LOL, I think underneath all your crap, you have a sense of humor.

Nope, I'm not a "instant gratification guy". I would have given the Chiller another year, maybe even two.

marstc09
12-23-2010, 05:51 PM
If you mean getting back to "Dinking and Dunking" and away from a more vertical threat, then yes, I like the "Back to Basics" idea. Again, that appears to be what this team was designed to do, not go vertical all the time.

You don't really listen.....you just start typing.

Back to the basics means what Jackie Chan did with the kid in the new Karate Kid movie.

He started training him to be a champion by having him hang up his jacket over and over again for many days.

That's what most of the players on this team need.

Now think before you start typing.

Champions are made by first changing their attitude.....then attaining physical fitness.....and only then teaching skills.

It takes a coach.

Marrdro said:
You want an attitude change.....Wasn't that supposed to come from the HC'ing change?

You want Physical fitness.....Wow, a little late in the season to start conditioning drills.

You want coaching......Again, isn't that supposed to be a byproduct of the coaching change?



The coaching change was a few weeks ago.....building a team takes years.

You seem to have a problem with instant gratification.....sort of like the kid Jackie Chan was training.

Like the typical "fan," you want your team perfect and you want it RIGHT NOW!

You probably need to hang up your jacket over and over for many days to learn some wisdom and discipline.

Gonna take time, my friend......and we still don't even know if we have a coach.

Relax.....we'll see results in a couple of years if the coach can coach.
LOL, I think underneath all your crap, you have a sense of humor.

Nope, I'm not a "instant gratification guy". I would have given the Chiller another year, maybe even two.

Yet you call for Leslies head after a couple games. lol

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 05:53 PM
I pretty much track with those two the same as you but I have also been leaning towards the idea of the unit being out of balance in their size.

Basically the thought is that in the league we have seen teams like the Cowboys and Redskins be very successful with massive(for the time) linemen and we have also seen teams with smaller, more nimble linemen like the niners under Walsh and the Broncos under Shanahan that could also win championships so we know that you can be successful with either of them.

However, when you try to combine the huge Tackles that are matched up against the smaller, faster defensive ends, average sized guards and then a small center who is going up against the heaviest defender (DT). So with this group we can't dominate teams with our size because the middle is too small to overpower the defense and the outside is not agile enough to allow us to use finess.

I would really like to see what we do with the offense in the offseason and hopefully we will get a coach and a GM who will look at the roster more comprehensively and put together a unit that can function well as a group and that will go a long ways toward the whole offense looking better. But My guess is we are probably 3 or more years away from even sniffing the playoffs and half a decade at best from even thinking about winning the division and contending at a higher level-And that is if we have a best case scenario.
Damn fine post my friend. Its gotta be the new avatar. :laugh:

I think I tried to explain this to Mr. A. I think we are bigger in the T area and smaller as you go in to support movement by the G's and C in support of the running game/Zone blocking scheme.

Problem is, we seem to be always in a passing mode and when we do that, we aren't hitting the shorter/quicker routes which is were we see our T's struggle.

Again, great post.

Then the problem is the Tackles. If they are unable to hold their blocks long enough to let the longer routes develop, then THEY are the weak link.

Our Receivers can only get there so fast. The QB can only throw it if it's there. The TACKLES - and the rest of the line - are supposed to buy them the time to make that happen.

Ours don't. Not consistently. Not against good teams.

That, to me, doesn't indicate a problem with coaching - we have one, but that's not the indicator I use. That indicates a problem with our Linemen.

If 5 guys can't stop 4 from getting to the QB, then those 5 guys need to be replaced with 5 who can.

I'm not blaming them for blitzes - some they should pick up, some the RB or TE should chip on - but if the standard 4 man front is getting home, and they were with Chicago - then the LINE ITSELF is the problem.

Our line sucks.

Caine
I can agree with all of that with minor exception. In almost all instances when we see breakdowns it isn't just 4 or even 5.

Not saying you don't, but watch real close this weekend and see how many times you see two and three extra after our QB.

I bet when you see the 3 extra you will see 5 come with 2 coming late and both of those will either both come in a B or a C gap or both A gaps when our T's take thier guy wide.

That will force the C to leave his G help as he tries to pick up the one blitzer and will leave a guy open as the other G is engaged. In very few instances will they attack 2 on our T's.

Atleast thats what I've been seeing.

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 05:54 PM
Don't have a clue? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Child please. I see with my own eyes everyone on that OL getting owned. This has nopthing to do with FB, RB, etc. I see those guys fucking up too.

Moral of the story is they all suck ass. Stop making lame ass excuses for their pathetic performance this year.
Oh lord, give me the patience......

Show me one place were I haven't said we have issues. Hell I want Big Mac gone for goodness sake.

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 05:58 PM
I guess the book is not helping.
The book is excellent, especially when it comes to how to chart the game and what to watch for, but listening to him and Tim on the disc is what really makes it worth the money.

Only issue I have right now is that if I take a drink, grab a wing or just look away for a second, I miss the packages coming in and out cause the TV is to busy showing/doing other things.

CBS is the worst.

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 06:01 PM
I find it hilarious that he is trying to save face after his "mobile QB will solve the OL issues" statement. It is quite obvious to any great football mind that the blocking failed this year.
Back the truck up. I'm not off moving the QB out of the pocket. In fact I still say that the small amount we got to see TJ, before the Knee thing, was a pretty good example of what a QB could do in this offense moving around.

Hell, I could even go back to last year and use what the Noodle did as proof.

It wasn't until the Aints game last year and then again this year were we saw our QB acting like a statue.

I attribute that to the busted bones.

marstc09
12-23-2010, 06:03 PM
Don't have a clue? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Child please. I see with my own eyes everyone on that OL getting owned. This has nopthing to do with FB, RB, etc. I see those guys fucking up too.

Moral of the story is they all suck ass. Stop making lame ass excuses for their pathetic performance this year.
Oh lord, give me the patience......

Show me one place were I haven't said we have issues. Hell I want Big Mac gone for goodness sake.

See that is your problem. What is the point of this thread. Many have said with have BLOCKING issues. That means EVERYONE!

marstc09
12-23-2010, 06:06 PM
I find it hilarious that he is trying to save face after his "mobile QB will solve the OL issues" statement. It is quite obvious to any great football mind that the blocking failed this year.
Back the truck up. I'm not off moving the QB out of the pocket. In fact I still say that the small amount we got to see TJ, before the Knee thing, was a pretty good example of what a QB could do in this offense moving around.

Hell, I could even go back to last year and use what the Noodle did as proof.

It wasn't until the Aints game last year and then again this year were we saw our QB acting like a statue.

I attribute that to the busted bones.

Ah yes the old injury excuse for TJ. He kept playing but yet when Favre plays injured you are all over his nuts.

News flash: Favre has been injured all year.

Marrdro
12-23-2010, 06:18 PM
I find it hilarious that he is trying to save face after his "mobile QB will solve the OL issues" statement. It is quite obvious to any great football mind that the blocking failed this year.
Back the truck up. I'm not off moving the QB out of the pocket. In fact I still say that the small amount we got to see TJ, before the Knee thing, was a pretty good example of what a QB could do in this offense moving around.

Hell, I could even go back to last year and use what the Noodle did as proof.

It wasn't until the Aints game last year and then again this year were we saw our QB acting like a statue.

I attribute that to the busted bones.

Ah yes the old injury excuse for TJ. He kept playing but yet when Favre plays injured you are all over his nuts.

News flash: Favre has been injured all year.
What?

His (TJ) play sucked after he got hurt and should have gone to the bench.

How is that feeling any different than me wanting the Noodle to sit?

marstc09
12-23-2010, 07:36 PM
I find it hilarious that he is trying to save face after his "mobile QB will solve the OL issues" statement. It is quite obvious to any great football mind that the blocking failed this year.
Back the truck up. I'm not off moving the QB out of the pocket. In fact I still say that the small amount we got to see TJ, before the Knee thing, was a pretty good example of what a QB could do in this offense moving around.

Hell, I could even go back to last year and use what the Noodle did as proof.

It wasn't until the Aints game last year and then again this year were we saw our QB acting like a statue.

I attribute that to the busted bones.

Ah yes the old injury excuse for TJ. He kept playing but yet when Favre plays injured you are all over his nuts.

News flash: Favre has been injured all year.
What?

His (TJ) play sucked after he got hurt and should have gone to the bench.

How is that feeling any different than me wanting the Noodle to sit?

I never seen a quote of you saying that!

triedandtruevikesfan
12-23-2010, 07:54 PM
WOAH! I thought I just saw someone say they would give Chilly 1 or 2 more years. I must be seeing things.

Caine
12-23-2010, 08:16 PM
I pretty much track with those two the same as you but I have also been leaning towards the idea of the unit being out of balance in their size.

Basically the thought is that in the league we have seen teams like the Cowboys and Redskins be very successful with massive(for the time) linemen and we have also seen teams with smaller, more nimble linemen like the niners under Walsh and the Broncos under Shanahan that could also win championships so we know that you can be successful with either of them.

However, when you try to combine the huge Tackles that are matched up against the smaller, faster defensive ends, average sized guards and then a small center who is going up against the heaviest defender (DT). So with this group we can't dominate teams with our size because the middle is too small to overpower the defense and the outside is not agile enough to allow us to use finess.

I would really like to see what we do with the offense in the offseason and hopefully we will get a coach and a GM who will look at the roster more comprehensively and put together a unit that can function well as a group and that will go a long ways toward the whole offense looking better. But My guess is we are probably 3 or more years away from even sniffing the playoffs and half a decade at best from even thinking about winning the division and contending at a higher level-And that is if we have a best case scenario.
Damn fine post my friend. Its gotta be the new avatar. :laugh:

I think I tried to explain this to Mr. A. I think we are bigger in the T area and smaller as you go in to support movement by the G's and C in support of the running game/Zone blocking scheme.

Problem is, we seem to be always in a passing mode and when we do that, we aren't hitting the shorter/quicker routes which is were we see our T's struggle.

Again, great post.

Then the problem is the Tackles. If they are unable to hold their blocks long enough to let the longer routes develop, then THEY are the weak link.

Our Receivers can only get there so fast. The QB can only throw it if it's there. The TACKLES - and the rest of the line - are supposed to buy them the time to make that happen.

Ours don't. Not consistently. Not against good teams.

That, to me, doesn't indicate a problem with coaching - we have one, but that's not the indicator I use. That indicates a problem with our Linemen.

If 5 guys can't stop 4 from getting to the QB, then those 5 guys need to be replaced with 5 who can.

I'm not blaming them for blitzes - some they should pick up, some the RB or TE should chip on - but if the standard 4 man front is getting home, and they were with Chicago - then the LINE ITSELF is the problem.

Our line sucks.

Caine
I can agree with all of that with minor exception. In almost all instances when we see breakdowns it isn't just 4 or even 5.

Not saying you don't, but watch real close this weekend and see how many times you see two and three extra after our QB.

I bet when you see the 3 extra you will see 5 come with 2 coming late and both of those will either both come in a B or a C gap or both A gaps when our T's take thier guy wide.

That will force the C to leave his G help as he tries to pick up the one blitzer and will leave a guy open as the other G is engaged. In very few instances will they attack 2 on our T's.

Atleast thats what I've been seeing.

When Wootton got to Favre, they brought FOUR. Just four.

When he got hurt versus Buffalo, they brought FOUR. Just four.

When the Patriots put him out with the chin hit, they brought FOUR. Just four.

I can go on and on and on.

At the end of the day, no matter how you try and over analyze it, the line for the Minnesota Vikings plays like crap. They do not block well unless the team they are blocking is a crappy team.

They do NOT provide good pass blocking.

They are failing to get the push off the line in run blocking situations.

They are failing in almost EVERY aspect of the game.

THEY are.

Not the Coaches. Not the QB. Not the Backs or the TE's...the LINE.

And it starts with McKinnie. He is the suckiest of the sucky. he's Sucktastic. Sucktacular. Suck-a-saurus Rex. The Suckmeister. The Lord of Suck. King Suck. Bryant McSucks.

In short, he doesn't play very well.

Caine

Infidel
12-23-2010, 10:37 PM
Are you reading carefully, Marrdro??

That's as clearly and concisely and accurately as you're ever going to get it.....so I sure hope you absorb it.

.

Purple Floyd
12-24-2010, 07:28 PM
I pretty much track with those two the same as you but I have also been leaning towards the idea of the unit being out of balance in their size.

Basically the thought is that in the league we have seen teams like the Cowboys and Redskins be very successful with massive(for the time) linemen and we have also seen teams with smaller, more nimble linemen like the niners under Walsh and the Broncos under Shanahan that could also win championships so we know that you can be successful with either of them.

However, when you try to combine the huge Tackles that are matched up against the smaller, faster defensive ends, average sized guards and then a small center who is going up against the heaviest defender (DT). So with this group we can't dominate teams with our size because the middle is too small to overpower the defense and the outside is not agile enough to allow us to use finess.

I would really like to see what we do with the offense in the offseason and hopefully we will get a coach and a GM who will look at the roster more comprehensively and put together a unit that can function well as a group and that will go a long ways toward the whole offense looking better. But My guess is we are probably 3 or more years away from even sniffing the playoffs and half a decade at best from even thinking about winning the division and contending at a higher level-And that is if we have a best case scenario.
Damn fine post my friend. Its gotta be the new avatar. :laugh:

I think I tried to explain this to Mr. A. I think we are bigger in the T area and smaller as you go in to support movement by the G's and C in support of the running game/Zone blocking scheme.

Problem is, we seem to be always in a passing mode and when we do that, we aren't hitting the shorter/quicker routes which is were we see our T's struggle.

Again, great post.

Then the problem is the Tackles. If they are unable to hold their blocks long enough to let the longer routes develop, then THEY are the weak link.

Our Receivers can only get there so fast. The QB can only throw it if it's there. The TACKLES - and the rest of the line - are supposed to buy them the time to make that happen.

Ours don't. Not consistently. Not against good teams.

That, to me, doesn't indicate a problem with coaching - we have one, but that's not the indicator I use. That indicates a problem with our Linemen.

If 5 guys can't stop 4 from getting to the QB, then those 5 guys need to be replaced with 5 who can.

I'm not blaming them for blitzes - some they should pick up, some the RB or TE should chip on - but if the standard 4 man front is getting home, and they were with Chicago - then the LINE ITSELF is the problem.

Our line sucks.

Caine

Well, I am not an expert but it seems to me from decades of watching the game and just generally observing schemes and players, historically teams that have had the huge Tackles and Guards are teams that ran the more vertical passing attacks and have generally relied on deeper drops for the QB as opposed to the quicker hitting WCO style we are running.

It seems to me that the best way to put those big tackles in a position to be successful would be to have deeper drops by the QB. This would help them by making the DE take a deeper arc on the way to the QB which would give the tackles another step or two to get squared up and in the proper position to protect the QB. My theory with these two is that the DE's are able to get a better angle on them quicker and gain the upper hand.

I think we could keep these two Tackles and Hutch and then bring in a much bigger center and a big David Dixon type left guard so that we can hold the line in the middle and not get collapsed like we are now.

singersp
12-26-2010, 03:16 PM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

Purple Floyd
12-26-2010, 04:07 PM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

actually the blame was divided between the play of the line, the play of the various failed QB's and the HC that was responsible for putting those players in that system.

You recognized the problems with the line early,the coach late and to this point I don't think you have yet to realize some of us were right on the money with sticking the fork in Jackson because he was for all intents and purposes done in 2008. And if not for the stubbornness of a filed coach he would have been bypassed and we could have been focusing on finding a QB that could be the future.

marstc09
12-27-2010, 04:57 PM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Purple Floyd
12-28-2010, 03:40 AM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Agreed. He was a very solid center and certainly a big step up from what we have had since he left.

Marrdro
12-28-2010, 02:05 PM
I pretty much track with those two the same as you but I have also been leaning towards the idea of the unit being out of balance in their size.

Basically the thought is that in the league we have seen teams like the Cowboys and Redskins be very successful with massive(for the time) linemen and we have also seen teams with smaller, more nimble linemen like the niners under Walsh and the Broncos under Shanahan that could also win championships so we know that you can be successful with either of them.

However, when you try to combine the huge Tackles that are matched up against the smaller, faster defensive ends, average sized guards and then a small center who is going up against the heaviest defender (DT). So with this group we can't dominate teams with our size because the middle is too small to overpower the defense and the outside is not agile enough to allow us to use finess.

I would really like to see what we do with the offense in the offseason and hopefully we will get a coach and a GM who will look at the roster more comprehensively and put together a unit that can function well as a group and that will go a long ways toward the whole offense looking better. But My guess is we are probably 3 or more years away from even sniffing the playoffs and half a decade at best from even thinking about winning the division and contending at a higher level-And that is if we have a best case scenario.
Damn fine post my friend. Its gotta be the new avatar. :laugh:

I think I tried to explain this to Mr. A. I think we are bigger in the T area and smaller as you go in to support movement by the G's and C in support of the running game/Zone blocking scheme.

Problem is, we seem to be always in a passing mode and when we do that, we aren't hitting the shorter/quicker routes which is were we see our T's struggle.

Again, great post.

Then the problem is the Tackles. If they are unable to hold their blocks long enough to let the longer routes develop, then THEY are the weak link.

Our Receivers can only get there so fast. The QB can only throw it if it's there. The TACKLES - and the rest of the line - are supposed to buy them the time to make that happen.

Ours don't. Not consistently. Not against good teams.

That, to me, doesn't indicate a problem with coaching - we have one, but that's not the indicator I use. That indicates a problem with our Linemen.

If 5 guys can't stop 4 from getting to the QB, then those 5 guys need to be replaced with 5 who can.

I'm not blaming them for blitzes - some they should pick up, some the RB or TE should chip on - but if the standard 4 man front is getting home, and they were with Chicago - then the LINE ITSELF is the problem.

Our line sucks.

Caine
I can agree with all of that with minor exception. In almost all instances when we see breakdowns it isn't just 4 or even 5.

Not saying you don't, but watch real close this weekend and see how many times you see two and three extra after our QB.

I bet when you see the 3 extra you will see 5 come with 2 coming late and both of those will either both come in a B or a C gap or both A gaps when our T's take thier guy wide.

That will force the C to leave his G help as he tries to pick up the one blitzer and will leave a guy open as the other G is engaged. In very few instances will they attack 2 on our T's.

Atleast thats what I've been seeing.

When Wootton got to Favre, they brought FOUR. Just four.

When he got hurt versus Buffalo, they brought FOUR. Just four.

When the Patriots put him out with the chin hit, they brought FOUR. Just four.

I can go on and on and on.

At the end of the day, no matter how you try and over analyze it, the line for the Minnesota Vikings plays like crap. They do not block well unless the team they are blocking is a crappy team.

They do NOT provide good pass blocking.

They are failing to get the push off the line in run blocking situations.

They are failing in almost EVERY aspect of the game.

THEY are.

Not the Coaches. Not the QB. Not the Backs or the TE's...the LINE.

And it starts with McKinnie. He is the suckiest of the sucky. he's Sucktastic. Sucktacular. Suck-a-saurus Rex. The Suckmeister. The Lord of Suck. King Suck. Bryant McSucks.

In short, he doesn't play very well.

Caine
And the Ain'ts got to him with 3, just 3.

Look I'm not saying it doesn't happen and our OL doesn't have problems. I saying we also have problems elsewhere.

Kindof simple really. Not sure why you guys are having problems with that concept. :P

Marrdro
12-28-2010, 02:11 PM
I pretty much track with those two the same as you but I have also been leaning towards the idea of the unit being out of balance in their size.

Basically the thought is that in the league we have seen teams like the Cowboys and Redskins be very successful with massive(for the time) linemen and we have also seen teams with smaller, more nimble linemen like the niners under Walsh and the Broncos under Shanahan that could also win championships so we know that you can be successful with either of them.

However, when you try to combine the huge Tackles that are matched up against the smaller, faster defensive ends, average sized guards and then a small center who is going up against the heaviest defender (DT). So with this group we can't dominate teams with our size because the middle is too small to overpower the defense and the outside is not agile enough to allow us to use finess.

I would really like to see what we do with the offense in the offseason and hopefully we will get a coach and a GM who will look at the roster more comprehensively and put together a unit that can function well as a group and that will go a long ways toward the whole offense looking better. But My guess is we are probably 3 or more years away from even sniffing the playoffs and half a decade at best from even thinking about winning the division and contending at a higher level-And that is if we have a best case scenario.
Damn fine post my friend. Its gotta be the new avatar. :laugh:

I think I tried to explain this to Mr. A. I think we are bigger in the T area and smaller as you go in to support movement by the G's and C in support of the running game/Zone blocking scheme.

Problem is, we seem to be always in a passing mode and when we do that, we aren't hitting the shorter/quicker routes which is were we see our T's struggle.

Again, great post.

Then the problem is the Tackles. If they are unable to hold their blocks long enough to let the longer routes develop, then THEY are the weak link.

Our Receivers can only get there so fast. The QB can only throw it if it's there. The TACKLES - and the rest of the line - are supposed to buy them the time to make that happen.

Ours don't. Not consistently. Not against good teams.

That, to me, doesn't indicate a problem with coaching - we have one, but that's not the indicator I use. That indicates a problem with our Linemen.

If 5 guys can't stop 4 from getting to the QB, then those 5 guys need to be replaced with 5 who can.

I'm not blaming them for blitzes - some they should pick up, some the RB or TE should chip on - but if the standard 4 man front is getting home, and they were with Chicago - then the LINE ITSELF is the problem.

Our line sucks.

Caine

Well, I am not an expert but it seems to me from decades of watching the game and just generally observing schemes and players, historically teams that have had the huge Tackles and Guards are teams that ran the more vertical passing attacks and have generally relied on deeper drops for the QB as opposed to the quicker hitting WCO style we are running.

It seems to me that the best way to put those big tackles in a position to be successful would be to have deeper drops by the QB. This would help them by making the DE take a deeper arc on the way to the QB which would give the tackles another step or two to get squared up and in the proper position to protect the QB. My theory with these two is that the DE's are able to get a better angle on them quicker and gain the upper hand.

I think we could keep these two Tackles and Hutch and then bring in a much bigger center and a big David Dixon type left guard so that we can hold the line in the middle and not get collapsed like we are now.
Hmmmmmmm, let me see if I am reading this correctly......

Your saying that if you have T's (big guys) that struggle against speedier pass rushers (equates to don't have alot of time to protect the QB) you should drop your QB into 7 step drops (holds the ball longer).

3 step drop/Quick hitch = out of the QB's hands = speedier pass rusher can't get there.

7 step drop/7, 8, 9 route = longer to develop = T has to hold his block longer = speedier pass rusher gets there.

I don't disagree with what you see, however, from my vantage point, if you want to go deep against the speedier pass rushers, typically they help the T's with a TE or a RB/FB. They don't leave them alone and they surely don't encourage the QB to take deeper drops/hold the ball longer.

Atleast thats what I've seen.

Marrdro
12-28-2010, 02:16 PM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Agreed. He was a very solid center and certainly a big step up from what we have had since he left.
Two things....Birk wanted to much money and have you watched him play?

The Ravens are suffering from the same issues we were when Matt was here. Delayed blitzes up the middle/no push at the center in the running game/a center that can't pull.

Flacco - 3rd in the league with sacks. Thats saying alot for a team that runs, runs, runs again, pass only if they have to.

Rice - 12th in the leage rushing. AD is 11th by the way.

The staff, not just the Chiller, made a smart decision to let Matt walk.

vike_mike
12-28-2010, 03:12 PM
I just hope that McKinnie and Cook are cut this offseason. We cannot afford to have them on our team. Not one more second. It is absolutely unbelievable that a 6'8 340 lbs LT can't block anybody. He should be ashamed of himself.

Marrdro
12-28-2010, 03:29 PM
I just hope that McKinnie and Cook are cut this offseason. We cannot afford to have them on our team. Not one more second. It is absolutely unbelievable that a 6'8 340 lbs LT can't block anybody. He should be ashamed of himself.
I agree with Big Mac, but if Cook will stay for backup money, I can't see how anyone would think its a good thing to let him go.

Since he came in off the bench, he has done nothing but good for the team in several positions.

singersp
12-28-2010, 04:02 PM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Agreed. He was a very solid center and certainly a big step up from what we have had since he left.
Two things....Birk wanted to much money and have you watched him play?

The Ravens are suffering from the same issues we were when Matt was here. Delayed blitzes up the middle/no push at the center in the running game/a center that can't pull.

Flacco - 3rd in the league with sacks. Thats saying alot for a team that runs, runs, runs again, pass only if they have to.

Rice - 12th in the leage rushing. AD is 11th by the way.

The staff, not just the Chiller, made a smart decision to let Matt walk.

Still a hater

Still playing the " can't pull" card based on a play you watched in 2008.

Quick questions: You're making a lot claims about plays & what ails the Ravens line? Who are you watching play on Sundays, the Vikings or the Ravens?

My guess is you watched one Raven game, maybe two & looked for the one play where Flaaco got sacked up the middle on a blitz & blamed Birk for it, ignoring all other plays.

When there's a blitz up the middle, whose job is it to pick up the extra man? Is it the centers job to block the nose tackle & any additional blitzers?

Just because Flacco was sacked 36 times doesn't mean Birk was at fault.

Favre was sacked 22 times. Should we, IYO, be then blaming Sullivan for those since blitzes have killed us?

BTW, LOL at the "Only passes when he has to" comment. Flacco has thrown the ball 470 times, 6 less times than Tom Brady. Rice has run the ball 287 times & McGahee 98 times.

Marrdro
12-28-2010, 04:20 PM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Agreed. He was a very solid center and certainly a big step up from what we have had since he left.
Two things....Birk wanted to much money and have you watched him play?

The Ravens are suffering from the same issues we were when Matt was here. Delayed blitzes up the middle/no push at the center in the running game/a center that can't pull.

Flacco - 3rd in the league with sacks. Thats saying alot for a team that runs, runs, runs again, pass only if they have to.

Rice - 12th in the leage rushing. AD is 11th by the way.

The staff, not just the Chiller, made a smart decision to let Matt walk.

Still a hater

Still playing the " can't pull" card based on a play you watched in 2008.

Quick questions: You're making a lot claims about plays & what ails the Ravens line? Who are you watching play on Sundays, the Vikings or the Ravens?

My guess is you watched one Raven game, maybe two & looked for the one play where Flaaco got sacked up the middle on a blitz & blamed Birk for it, ignoring all other plays.

When there's a blitz up the middle, whose job is it to pick up the extra man? Is it the centers job to block the nose tackle & any additional blitzers?

Just because Flacco was sacked 36 times doesn't mean Birk was at fault.

Favre was sacked 22 times. Should we, IYO, be then blaming Sullivan for those since blitzes have killed us?

BTW, LOL at the "Only passes when he has to" comment. Flacco has thrown the ball 470 times, 6 less times than Tom Brady. Rice has run the ball 287 times & McGahee 98 times.
Comeon my friend, you know I watch nothing but football at my house during the season. I even watch teams like the Cards.

As to the Vikings.....You ever hear of re-airs? You ever visited NFL.com and watched highlights. Almost every sack, TD, INT, fumble etc can be seen on there. Hell, youtube has more stuff on it than NFL.com. In the end, if you want to see a play, you can see it.

So yes, Matt is still like a turnstyle in the middle. He seems to default to helping a G (like he did with Hutch) if he doesn't have anyone in front of him allowing the delayed blitzer to come from the side he isn't helping on. Again, NFL.com.

And I'm not a hater. I loved Matt as a player. I'm just of a mind that he isn't as good as some of you still want him to be. Statistically that opinion is validated.......:P

singersp
12-28-2010, 04:32 PM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Agreed. He was a very solid center and certainly a big step up from what we have had since he left.
Two things....Birk wanted to much money and have you watched him play?

The Ravens are suffering from the same issues we were when Matt was here. Delayed blitzes up the middle/no push at the center in the running game/a center that can't pull.

Flacco - 3rd in the league with sacks. Thats saying alot for a team that runs, runs, runs again, pass only if they have to.

Rice - 12th in the leage rushing. AD is 11th by the way.

The staff, not just the Chiller, made a smart decision to let Matt walk.

Still a hater

Still playing the " can't pull" card based on a play you watched in 2008.

Quick questions: You're making a lot claims about plays & what ails the Ravens line? Who are you watching play on Sundays, the Vikings or the Ravens?

My guess is you watched one Raven game, maybe two & looked for the one play where Flaaco got sacked up the middle on a blitz & blamed Birk for it, ignoring all other plays.

When there's a blitz up the middle, whose job is it to pick up the extra man? Is it the centers job to block the nose tackle & any additional blitzers?

Just because Flacco was sacked 36 times doesn't mean Birk was at fault.

Favre was sacked 22 times. Should we, IYO, be then blaming Sullivan for those since blitzes have killed us?

BTW, LOL at the "Only passes when he has to" comment. Flacco has thrown the ball 470 times, 6 less times than Tom Brady. Rice has run the ball 287 times & McGahee 98 times.
Comeon my friend, you know I watch nothing but football at my house during the season. I even watch teams like the Cards.

As to the Vikings.....You ever hear of re-airs? You ever visited NFL.com and watched highlights. Almost every sack, TD, INT, fumble etc can be seen on there. Hell, youtube has more stuff on it than NFL.com. In the end, if you want to see a play, you can see it.

So yes, Matt is still like a turnstyle in the middle. He seems to default to helping a G (like he did with Hutch) if he doesn't have anyone in front of him allowing the delayed blitzer to come from the side he isn't helping on. Again, NFL.com.

And I'm not a hater. I loved Matt as a player. I'm just of a mind that he isn't as good as some of you still want him to be. Statistically that opinion is validated.......:P

Yes, I'm well aware of NFL.Com's highlights & YouTube that shows plays like sacks each & every week.

Thank you for making my point. You watch a single highlight or 2 of Flacco getting sacked & see perhaps Birk getting beat by a formidable opponent. You then base your entire perception of him based on that 1 highlight. Much like you did when he was in in MN, you dwell one one bad play & totally ignore all the rest of the good plays in the game.

All sacks are not the fault of the center.

Repeat it to yourself. All sacks are not the fault of the center.

Marrdro
12-28-2010, 04:41 PM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Agreed. He was a very solid center and certainly a big step up from what we have had since he left.
Two things....Birk wanted to much money and have you watched him play?

The Ravens are suffering from the same issues we were when Matt was here. Delayed blitzes up the middle/no push at the center in the running game/a center that can't pull.

Flacco - 3rd in the league with sacks. Thats saying alot for a team that runs, runs, runs again, pass only if they have to.

Rice - 12th in the leage rushing. AD is 11th by the way.

The staff, not just the Chiller, made a smart decision to let Matt walk.

Still a hater

Still playing the " can't pull" card based on a play you watched in 2008.

Quick questions: You're making a lot claims about plays & what ails the Ravens line? Who are you watching play on Sundays, the Vikings or the Ravens?

My guess is you watched one Raven game, maybe two & looked for the one play where Flaaco got sacked up the middle on a blitz & blamed Birk for it, ignoring all other plays.

When there's a blitz up the middle, whose job is it to pick up the extra man? Is it the centers job to block the nose tackle & any additional blitzers?

Just because Flacco was sacked 36 times doesn't mean Birk was at fault.

Favre was sacked 22 times. Should we, IYO, be then blaming Sullivan for those since blitzes have killed us?

BTW, LOL at the "Only passes when he has to" comment. Flacco has thrown the ball 470 times, 6 less times than Tom Brady. Rice has run the ball 287 times & McGahee 98 times.
Comeon my friend, you know I watch nothing but football at my house during the season. I even watch teams like the Cards.

As to the Vikings.....You ever hear of re-airs? You ever visited NFL.com and watched highlights. Almost every sack, TD, INT, fumble etc can be seen on there. Hell, youtube has more stuff on it than NFL.com. In the end, if you want to see a play, you can see it.

So yes, Matt is still like a turnstyle in the middle. He seems to default to helping a G (like he did with Hutch) if he doesn't have anyone in front of him allowing the delayed blitzer to come from the side he isn't helping on. Again, NFL.com.

And I'm not a hater. I loved Matt as a player. I'm just of a mind that he isn't as good as some of you still want him to be. Statistically that opinion is validated.......:P

Yes, I'm well aware of NFL.Com's highlights & YouTube that shows plays like sacks each & every week.

Thank you for making my point. You watch a single highlight or 2 of Flacco getting sacked & see perhaps Birk getting beat by a formidable opponent. You then base your entire perception of him based on that 1 highlight. Much like you did when he was in in MN, you dwell one one bad play & totally ignore all the rest of the good plays in the game.
But I don't watch just one highlight and I don't dwell on just one or two plays. You, above all others should know how anal I am when it comes to the game (and not just the Vikes)

Mix in that I'm in full draft mode my friend (actually a month early). I will watch almost every play for almost every team as I work up my "Team Needs".

Anything I might have missed during the season (which isn't much) I will eventually get to see.

Guess what I have down for the Ravens for team needs?

Chester did a few good things in preseason but he has had 5 years so unless they are gonna go into next year with Matt, they need to address it this year sometime.

singersp
12-28-2010, 04:47 PM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Agreed. He was a very solid center and certainly a big step up from what we have had since he left.
Two things....Birk wanted to much money and have you watched him play?

The Ravens are suffering from the same issues we were when Matt was here. Delayed blitzes up the middle/no push at the center in the running game/a center that can't pull.

Flacco - 3rd in the league with sacks. Thats saying alot for a team that runs, runs, runs again, pass only if they have to.

Rice - 12th in the leage rushing. AD is 11th by the way.

The staff, not just the Chiller, made a smart decision to let Matt walk.

Still a hater

Still playing the " can't pull" card based on a play you watched in 2008.

Quick questions: You're making a lot claims about plays & what ails the Ravens line? Who are you watching play on Sundays, the Vikings or the Ravens?

My guess is you watched one Raven game, maybe two & looked for the one play where Flaaco got sacked up the middle on a blitz & blamed Birk for it, ignoring all other plays.

When there's a blitz up the middle, whose job is it to pick up the extra man? Is it the centers job to block the nose tackle & any additional blitzers?

Just because Flacco was sacked 36 times doesn't mean Birk was at fault.

Favre was sacked 22 times. Should we, IYO, be then blaming Sullivan for those since blitzes have killed us?

BTW, LOL at the "Only passes when he has to" comment. Flacco has thrown the ball 470 times, 6 less times than Tom Brady. Rice has run the ball 287 times & McGahee 98 times.
Comeon my friend, you know I watch nothing but football at my house during the season. I even watch teams like the Cards.

As to the Vikings.....You ever hear of re-airs? You ever visited NFL.com and watched highlights. Almost every sack, TD, INT, fumble etc can be seen on there. Hell, youtube has more stuff on it than NFL.com. In the end, if you want to see a play, you can see it.

So yes, Matt is still like a turnstyle in the middle. He seems to default to helping a G (like he did with Hutch) if he doesn't have anyone in front of him allowing the delayed blitzer to come from the side he isn't helping on. Again, NFL.com.

And I'm not a hater. I loved Matt as a player. I'm just of a mind that he isn't as good as some of you still want him to be. Statistically that opinion is validated.......:P

Yes, I'm well aware of NFL.Com's highlights & YouTube that shows plays like sacks each & every week.

Thank you for making my point. You watch a single highlight or 2 of Flacco getting sacked & see perhaps Birk getting beat by a formidable opponent. You then base your entire perception of him based on that 1 highlight. Much like you did when he was in in MN, you dwell one one bad play & totally ignore all the rest of the good plays in the game.
But I don't watch just one highlight and I don't dwell on just one or two plays. You, above all others should know how anal I am when it comes to the game (and not just the Vikes)

Mix in that I'm in full draft mode my friend (actually a month early). I will watch almost every play for almost every team as I work up my "Team Needs".

Anything I might have missed during the season (which isn't much) I will eventually get to see.

Guess what I have down for the Ravens for team needs?

Chester did a few good things in preseason but he has had 5 years so unless they are gonna go into next year with Matt, they need to address it this year sometime.

You may want to reference this....

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/10/15/o-line-em-up-sacks-allowed-stats-for-each-and-every-team/

Matt Birk: 0.5 sacks allowed.

Statistically speaking, that's the fewest sacks allowed on the list.

also gander at the 3.9 seconds time between ball snap & QB sack.

Birk's doing his job & doing it well.

jargomcfargo
12-28-2010, 04:55 PM
Marrdro said,
[quote][The Ravens are suffering from the same issues we were when Matt was here. Delayed blitzes up the middle/no push at the center in the running game/a center that can't pull.
/quote]

No push at the center in the running game is as bad or worse with Sullivan.

The delayed blitzes may not have been the centers responsibility. You think it was. I think it wasn't since the center was already engaged in a block and the back wasn't able to identify the blitz and make the block.

As far as pulling, Birk was able to pull, but wasn't asked to as often.
Was it because he slowed down a little? Perhaps.

But he did pull effectively at times. I remember AD's first touchdown. It was a swing pass out to the right. He bobbled then caught the ball.
Who was out there in front of him to block? Birk.

I will agree that Birk was getting pushed around and manhandled by some of the bigger nose tackles, but Sullivan gets pushed around more.

This team missed Birk. And they could use a better center.

Marrdro
12-28-2010, 04:58 PM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Agreed. He was a very solid center and certainly a big step up from what we have had since he left.
Two things....Birk wanted to much money and have you watched him play?

The Ravens are suffering from the same issues we were when Matt was here. Delayed blitzes up the middle/no push at the center in the running game/a center that can't pull.

Flacco - 3rd in the league with sacks. Thats saying alot for a team that runs, runs, runs again, pass only if they have to.

Rice - 12th in the leage rushing. AD is 11th by the way.

The staff, not just the Chiller, made a smart decision to let Matt walk.

Still a hater

Still playing the " can't pull" card based on a play you watched in 2008.

Quick questions: You're making a lot claims about plays & what ails the Ravens line? Who are you watching play on Sundays, the Vikings or the Ravens?

My guess is you watched one Raven game, maybe two & looked for the one play where Flaaco got sacked up the middle on a blitz & blamed Birk for it, ignoring all other plays.

When there's a blitz up the middle, whose job is it to pick up the extra man? Is it the centers job to block the nose tackle & any additional blitzers?

Just because Flacco was sacked 36 times doesn't mean Birk was at fault.

Favre was sacked 22 times. Should we, IYO, be then blaming Sullivan for those since blitzes have killed us?

BTW, LOL at the "Only passes when he has to" comment. Flacco has thrown the ball 470 times, 6 less times than Tom Brady. Rice has run the ball 287 times & McGahee 98 times.
Comeon my friend, you know I watch nothing but football at my house during the season. I even watch teams like the Cards.

As to the Vikings.....You ever hear of re-airs? You ever visited NFL.com and watched highlights. Almost every sack, TD, INT, fumble etc can be seen on there. Hell, youtube has more stuff on it than NFL.com. In the end, if you want to see a play, you can see it.

So yes, Matt is still like a turnstyle in the middle. He seems to default to helping a G (like he did with Hutch) if he doesn't have anyone in front of him allowing the delayed blitzer to come from the side he isn't helping on. Again, NFL.com.

And I'm not a hater. I loved Matt as a player. I'm just of a mind that he isn't as good as some of you still want him to be. Statistically that opinion is validated.......:P

Yes, I'm well aware of NFL.Com's highlights & YouTube that shows plays like sacks each & every week.

Thank you for making my point. You watch a single highlight or 2 of Flacco getting sacked & see perhaps Birk getting beat by a formidable opponent. You then base your entire perception of him based on that 1 highlight. Much like you did when he was in in MN, you dwell one one bad play & totally ignore all the rest of the good plays in the game.
But I don't watch just one highlight and I don't dwell on just one or two plays. You, above all others should know how anal I am when it comes to the game (and not just the Vikes)

Mix in that I'm in full draft mode my friend (actually a month early). I will watch almost every play for almost every team as I work up my "Team Needs".

Anything I might have missed during the season (which isn't much) I will eventually get to see.

Guess what I have down for the Ravens for team needs?

Chester did a few good things in preseason but he has had 5 years so unless they are gonna go into next year with Matt, they need to address it this year sometime.

You may want to reference this....

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/10/15/o-line-em-up-sacks-allowed-stats-for-each-and-every-team/

Matt Birk: 0.5 sacks allowed.

Statistically speaking, that's the fewest sacks allowed on the list.
10th in sacks. 11th in QB hits.
NFL stats (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&archive=false&d-447263-o=2&qualified=true&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT&d-447263-n=1)

24th Pass protection. 21rst running up the middle/G and thats going there 56% of the time.
Football outsider (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol)

Comeon my friend, I can pull stats just like you can and can twist them however I want, but in the end, my eyes tell me Ole Matt just doesn't have it anymore and it isn't, as you contend, based on one or two plays.

singersp
12-28-2010, 05:17 PM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Agreed. He was a very solid center and certainly a big step up from what we have had since he left.
Two things....Birk wanted to much money and have you watched him play?

The Ravens are suffering from the same issues we were when Matt was here. Delayed blitzes up the middle/no push at the center in the running game/a center that can't pull.

Flacco - 3rd in the league with sacks. Thats saying alot for a team that runs, runs, runs again, pass only if they have to.

Rice - 12th in the leage rushing. AD is 11th by the way.

The staff, not just the Chiller, made a smart decision to let Matt walk.

Still a hater

Still playing the " can't pull" card based on a play you watched in 2008.

Quick questions: You're making a lot claims about plays & what ails the Ravens line? Who are you watching play on Sundays, the Vikings or the Ravens?

My guess is you watched one Raven game, maybe two & looked for the one play where Flaaco got sacked up the middle on a blitz & blamed Birk for it, ignoring all other plays.

When there's a blitz up the middle, whose job is it to pick up the extra man? Is it the centers job to block the nose tackle & any additional blitzers?

Just because Flacco was sacked 36 times doesn't mean Birk was at fault.

Favre was sacked 22 times. Should we, IYO, be then blaming Sullivan for those since blitzes have killed us?

BTW, LOL at the "Only passes when he has to" comment. Flacco has thrown the ball 470 times, 6 less times than Tom Brady. Rice has run the ball 287 times & McGahee 98 times.
Comeon my friend, you know I watch nothing but football at my house during the season. I even watch teams like the Cards.

As to the Vikings.....You ever hear of re-airs? You ever visited NFL.com and watched highlights. Almost every sack, TD, INT, fumble etc can be seen on there. Hell, youtube has more stuff on it than NFL.com. In the end, if you want to see a play, you can see it.

So yes, Matt is still like a turnstyle in the middle. He seems to default to helping a G (like he did with Hutch) if he doesn't have anyone in front of him allowing the delayed blitzer to come from the side he isn't helping on. Again, NFL.com.

And I'm not a hater. I loved Matt as a player. I'm just of a mind that he isn't as good as some of you still want him to be. Statistically that opinion is validated.......:P

Yes, I'm well aware of NFL.Com's highlights & YouTube that shows plays like sacks each & every week.

Thank you for making my point. You watch a single highlight or 2 of Flacco getting sacked & see perhaps Birk getting beat by a formidable opponent. You then base your entire perception of him based on that 1 highlight. Much like you did when he was in in MN, you dwell one one bad play & totally ignore all the rest of the good plays in the game.
But I don't watch just one highlight and I don't dwell on just one or two plays. You, above all others should know how anal I am when it comes to the game (and not just the Vikes)

Mix in that I'm in full draft mode my friend (actually a month early). I will watch almost every play for almost every team as I work up my "Team Needs".

Anything I might have missed during the season (which isn't much) I will eventually get to see.

Guess what I have down for the Ravens for team needs?

Chester did a few good things in preseason but he has had 5 years so unless they are gonna go into next year with Matt, they need to address it this year sometime.

You may want to reference this....

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/10/15/o-line-em-up-sacks-allowed-stats-for-each-and-every-team/

Matt Birk: 0.5 sacks allowed.

Statistically speaking, that's the fewest sacks allowed on the list.
10th in sacks. 11th in QB hits.
NFL stats (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&archive=false&d-447263-o=2&qualified=true&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT&d-447263-n=1)

24th Pass protection. 21rst running up the middle/G and thats going there 56% of the time.
Football outsider (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol)

Comeon my friend, I can pull stats just like you can and can twist them however I want, but in the end, my eyes tell me Ole Matt just doesn't have it anymore and it isn't, as you contend, based on one or two plays.

I'm not twisting any stats. Take them for what they are. You keep giving me team stats & not individual stats. The 2nd link was moot & didn't give any useful info.

Yes, Flacco was sacked 36 times. Now break that down into who was responsible for each of the 36.

Mine breaks it down into individual players on the team. It's not complete, but you can see the trend.

Marrdro
12-28-2010, 05:54 PM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Agreed. He was a very solid center and certainly a big step up from what we have had since he left.
Two things....Birk wanted to much money and have you watched him play?

The Ravens are suffering from the same issues we were when Matt was here. Delayed blitzes up the middle/no push at the center in the running game/a center that can't pull.

Flacco - 3rd in the league with sacks. Thats saying alot for a team that runs, runs, runs again, pass only if they have to.

Rice - 12th in the leage rushing. AD is 11th by the way.

The staff, not just the Chiller, made a smart decision to let Matt walk.

Still a hater

Still playing the " can't pull" card based on a play you watched in 2008.

Quick questions: You're making a lot claims about plays & what ails the Ravens line? Who are you watching play on Sundays, the Vikings or the Ravens?

My guess is you watched one Raven game, maybe two & looked for the one play where Flaaco got sacked up the middle on a blitz & blamed Birk for it, ignoring all other plays.

When there's a blitz up the middle, whose job is it to pick up the extra man? Is it the centers job to block the nose tackle & any additional blitzers?

Just because Flacco was sacked 36 times doesn't mean Birk was at fault.

Favre was sacked 22 times. Should we, IYO, be then blaming Sullivan for those since blitzes have killed us?

BTW, LOL at the "Only passes when he has to" comment. Flacco has thrown the ball 470 times, 6 less times than Tom Brady. Rice has run the ball 287 times & McGahee 98 times.
Comeon my friend, you know I watch nothing but football at my house during the season. I even watch teams like the Cards.

As to the Vikings.....You ever hear of re-airs? You ever visited NFL.com and watched highlights. Almost every sack, TD, INT, fumble etc can be seen on there. Hell, youtube has more stuff on it than NFL.com. In the end, if you want to see a play, you can see it.

So yes, Matt is still like a turnstyle in the middle. He seems to default to helping a G (like he did with Hutch) if he doesn't have anyone in front of him allowing the delayed blitzer to come from the side he isn't helping on. Again, NFL.com.

And I'm not a hater. I loved Matt as a player. I'm just of a mind that he isn't as good as some of you still want him to be. Statistically that opinion is validated.......:P

Yes, I'm well aware of NFL.Com's highlights & YouTube that shows plays like sacks each & every week.

Thank you for making my point. You watch a single highlight or 2 of Flacco getting sacked & see perhaps Birk getting beat by a formidable opponent. You then base your entire perception of him based on that 1 highlight. Much like you did when he was in in MN, you dwell one one bad play & totally ignore all the rest of the good plays in the game.
But I don't watch just one highlight and I don't dwell on just one or two plays. You, above all others should know how anal I am when it comes to the game (and not just the Vikes)

Mix in that I'm in full draft mode my friend (actually a month early). I will watch almost every play for almost every team as I work up my "Team Needs".

Anything I might have missed during the season (which isn't much) I will eventually get to see.

Guess what I have down for the Ravens for team needs?

Chester did a few good things in preseason but he has had 5 years so unless they are gonna go into next year with Matt, they need to address it this year sometime.

You may want to reference this....

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/10/15/o-line-em-up-sacks-allowed-stats-for-each-and-every-team/

Matt Birk: 0.5 sacks allowed.

Statistically speaking, that's the fewest sacks allowed on the list.
10th in sacks. 11th in QB hits.
NFL stats (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&archive=false&d-447263-o=2&qualified=true&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT&d-447263-n=1)

24th Pass protection. 21rst running up the middle/G and thats going there 56% of the time.
Football outsider (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol)

Comeon my friend, I can pull stats just like you can and can twist them however I want, but in the end, my eyes tell me Ole Matt just doesn't have it anymore and it isn't, as you contend, based on one or two plays.

I'm not twisting any stats. Take them for what they are. You keep giving me team stats & not individual stats. The 2nd link was moot & didn't give any useful info.

Yes, Flacco was sacked 36 times. Now break that down into who was responsible for each of the 36.

Mine breaks it down into individual players on the team. It's not complete, but you can see the trend.
I can't give you the stuff from my favorite site anymore. Bastards are now a "Pay" site.

Besides, you know I track more than just sacks allowed, I watch what the whole line does. If you remember, my biggest hack on Matt was that I didn't think he made correct line adjustments pre-snap and wasn't suited for the ZB scheme.

Prior to the Ravens loosing thier C 2 years ago, they were going to convert to the ZB scheme but had to nix that plan when Brown left and after the signed Matt, they figured out that he wasn't gonna be able to play in the scheme either.

Long story short, my opinion is based on alot of things...Stats, play and assumption of what I believe the staff wants to do. My assumption is that they still want to be a one cut team behind a Zone Blocking OL and that they will try to find a C this offseason to do just that.

In no way does that slight Matt in what he did for us while he was on the team. As I've said repeatedly, I loved it when he was on the team but the last 2 years he was here something wasn't right.

My guess, alot of that had to do with the scheme, but alot of it also had to do with age and past injuries.

singersp
12-29-2010, 01:10 AM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Agreed. He was a very solid center and certainly a big step up from what we have had since he left.
Two things....Birk wanted to much money and have you watched him play?

The Ravens are suffering from the same issues we were when Matt was here. Delayed blitzes up the middle/no push at the center in the running game/a center that can't pull.

Flacco - 3rd in the league with sacks. Thats saying alot for a team that runs, runs, runs again, pass only if they have to.

Rice - 12th in the leage rushing. AD is 11th by the way.

The staff, not just the Chiller, made a smart decision to let Matt walk.

Still a hater

Still playing the " can't pull" card based on a play you watched in 2008.

Quick questions: You're making a lot claims about plays & what ails the Ravens line? Who are you watching play on Sundays, the Vikings or the Ravens?

My guess is you watched one Raven game, maybe two & looked for the one play where Flaaco got sacked up the middle on a blitz & blamed Birk for it, ignoring all other plays.

When there's a blitz up the middle, whose job is it to pick up the extra man? Is it the centers job to block the nose tackle & any additional blitzers?

Just because Flacco was sacked 36 times doesn't mean Birk was at fault.

Favre was sacked 22 times. Should we, IYO, be then blaming Sullivan for those since blitzes have killed us?

BTW, LOL at the "Only passes when he has to" comment. Flacco has thrown the ball 470 times, 6 less times than Tom Brady. Rice has run the ball 287 times & McGahee 98 times.
Comeon my friend, you know I watch nothing but football at my house during the season. I even watch teams like the Cards.

As to the Vikings.....You ever hear of re-airs? You ever visited NFL.com and watched highlights. Almost every sack, TD, INT, fumble etc can be seen on there. Hell, youtube has more stuff on it than NFL.com. In the end, if you want to see a play, you can see it.

So yes, Matt is still like a turnstyle in the middle. He seems to default to helping a G (like he did with Hutch) if he doesn't have anyone in front of him allowing the delayed blitzer to come from the side he isn't helping on. Again, NFL.com.

And I'm not a hater. I loved Matt as a player. I'm just of a mind that he isn't as good as some of you still want him to be. Statistically that opinion is validated.......:P

Yes, I'm well aware of NFL.Com's highlights & YouTube that shows plays like sacks each & every week.

Thank you for making my point. You watch a single highlight or 2 of Flacco getting sacked & see perhaps Birk getting beat by a formidable opponent. You then base your entire perception of him based on that 1 highlight. Much like you did when he was in in MN, you dwell one one bad play & totally ignore all the rest of the good plays in the game.
But I don't watch just one highlight and I don't dwell on just one or two plays. You, above all others should know how anal I am when it comes to the game (and not just the Vikes)

Mix in that I'm in full draft mode my friend (actually a month early). I will watch almost every play for almost every team as I work up my "Team Needs".

Anything I might have missed during the season (which isn't much) I will eventually get to see.

Guess what I have down for the Ravens for team needs?

Chester did a few good things in preseason but he has had 5 years so unless they are gonna go into next year with Matt, they need to address it this year sometime.

You may want to reference this....

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/10/15/o-line-em-up-sacks-allowed-stats-for-each-and-every-team/

Matt Birk: 0.5 sacks allowed.

Statistically speaking, that's the fewest sacks allowed on the list.
10th in sacks. 11th in QB hits.
NFL stats (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&archive=false&d-447263-o=2&qualified=true&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT&d-447263-n=1)

24th Pass protection. 21rst running up the middle/G and thats going there 56% of the time.
Football outsider (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol)

Comeon my friend, I can pull stats just like you can and can twist them however I want, but in the end, my eyes tell me Ole Matt just doesn't have it anymore and it isn't, as you contend, based on one or two plays.

I'm not twisting any stats. Take them for what they are. You keep giving me team stats & not individual stats. The 2nd link was moot & didn't give any useful info.

Yes, Flacco was sacked 36 times. Now break that down into who was responsible for each of the 36.

Mine breaks it down into individual players on the team. It's not complete, but you can see the trend.
I can't give you the stuff from my favorite site anymore. Bastards are now a "Pay" site.

Besides, you know I track more than just sacks allowed, I watch what the whole line does. If you remember, my biggest hack on Matt was that I didn't think he made correct line adjustments pre-snap and wasn't suited for the ZB scheme.

Prior to the Ravens loosing thier C 2 years ago, they were going to convert to the ZB scheme but had to nix that plan when Brown left and after the signed Matt, they figured out that he wasn't gonna be able to play in the scheme either.

Long story short, my opinion is based on alot of things...Stats, play and assumption of what I believe the staff wants to do. My assumption is that they still want to be a one cut team behind a Zone Blocking OL and that they will try to find a C this offseason to do just that.

In no way does that slight Matt in what he did for us while he was on the team. As I've said repeatedly, I loved it when he was on the team but the last 2 years he was here something wasn't right.

My guess, alot of that had to do with the scheme, but alot of it also had to do with age and past injuries.

It was the scheme.

Told you that in 2006, 2007 & 2008. Your notebook of notes on the O-line & all the players Childress threw in & out of there & shuffled around, should tell you that. I don't think he had qualified people in there teaching the scheme & Childress version of it, nor do I think it was the scheme we should have been running due to the difficulty & length of time it takes to put it in place.

Matt & Hutch tried to make the best out of a bad situation.

Caine
12-29-2010, 06:04 AM
It took Favre to fail behind our O-Line before many here finally realized what I've been saying for years. They were quick to blame the QB & not the O-line.

The O-line & it's scheme is & has been inept ever since the arrival Childress. It was attempted to be built for us to to be a run dominant team & did little for pass protection.

It was also horseshit in 2005 when Birk was out for the season & David Dixon had retired.

It was a huge mistake to let Birk go. Childress ruined our line with his player grudges. Birk is probably one of the easiest guys to get along with. A HARVARD GUY. How the fuck does Chilly screw that one up. What a douche. So glad he is gone.

Agreed. He was a very solid center and certainly a big step up from what we have had since he left.
Two things....Birk wanted to much money and have you watched him play?

The Ravens are suffering from the same issues we were when Matt was here. Delayed blitzes up the middle/no push at the center in the running game/a center that can't pull.

Flacco - 3rd in the league with sacks. Thats saying alot for a team that runs, runs, runs again, pass only if they have to.

Rice - 12th in the leage rushing. AD is 11th by the way.

The staff, not just the Chiller, made a smart decision to let Matt walk.

Still a hater

Still playing the " can't pull" card based on a play you watched in 2008.

Quick questions: You're making a lot claims about plays & what ails the Ravens line? Who are you watching play on Sundays, the Vikings or the Ravens?

My guess is you watched one Raven game, maybe two & looked for the one play where Flaaco got sacked up the middle on a blitz & blamed Birk for it, ignoring all other plays.

When there's a blitz up the middle, whose job is it to pick up the extra man? Is it the centers job to block the nose tackle & any additional blitzers?

Just because Flacco was sacked 36 times doesn't mean Birk was at fault.

Favre was sacked 22 times. Should we, IYO, be then blaming Sullivan for those since blitzes have killed us?

BTW, LOL at the "Only passes when he has to" comment. Flacco has thrown the ball 470 times, 6 less times than Tom Brady. Rice has run the ball 287 times & McGahee 98 times.
Comeon my friend, you know I watch nothing but football at my house during the season. I even watch teams like the Cards.

As to the Vikings.....You ever hear of re-airs? You ever visited NFL.com and watched highlights. Almost every sack, TD, INT, fumble etc can be seen on there. Hell, youtube has more stuff on it than NFL.com. In the end, if you want to see a play, you can see it.

So yes, Matt is still like a turnstyle in the middle. He seems to default to helping a G (like he did with Hutch) if he doesn't have anyone in front of him allowing the delayed blitzer to come from the side he isn't helping on. Again, NFL.com.

And I'm not a hater. I loved Matt as a player. I'm just of a mind that he isn't as good as some of you still want him to be. Statistically that opinion is validated.......:P

Yes, I'm well aware of NFL.Com's highlights & YouTube that shows plays like sacks each & every week.

Thank you for making my point. You watch a single highlight or 2 of Flacco getting sacked & see perhaps Birk getting beat by a formidable opponent. You then base your entire perception of him based on that 1 highlight. Much like you did when he was in in MN, you dwell one one bad play & totally ignore all the rest of the good plays in the game.
But I don't watch just one highlight and I don't dwell on just one or two plays. You, above all others should know how anal I am when it comes to the game (and not just the Vikes)

Mix in that I'm in full draft mode my friend (actually a month early). I will watch almost every play for almost every team as I work up my "Team Needs".

Anything I might have missed during the season (which isn't much) I will eventually get to see.

Guess what I have down for the Ravens for team needs?

Chester did a few good things in preseason but he has had 5 years so unless they are gonna go into next year with Matt, they need to address it this year sometime.

You may want to reference this....

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/10/15/o-line-em-up-sacks-allowed-stats-for-each-and-every-team/

Matt Birk: 0.5 sacks allowed.

Statistically speaking, that's the fewest sacks allowed on the list.
10th in sacks. 11th in QB hits.
NFL stats (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&archive=false&d-447263-o=2&qualified=true&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT&d-447263-n=1)

24th Pass protection. 21rst running up the middle/G and thats going there 56% of the time.
Football outsider (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol)

Comeon my friend, I can pull stats just like you can and can twist them however I want, but in the end, my eyes tell me Ole Matt just doesn't have it anymore and it isn't, as you contend, based on one or two plays.

I'm not twisting any stats. Take them for what they are. You keep giving me team stats & not individual stats. The 2nd link was moot & didn't give any useful info.

Yes, Flacco was sacked 36 times. Now break that down into who was responsible for each of the 36.

Mine breaks it down into individual players on the team. It's not complete, but you can see the trend.
I can't give you the stuff from my favorite site anymore. Bastards are now a "Pay" site.

Besides, you know I track more than just sacks allowed, I watch what the whole line does. If you remember, my biggest hack on Matt was that I didn't think he made correct line adjustments pre-snap and wasn't suited for the ZB scheme.

Prior to the Ravens loosing thier C 2 years ago, they were going to convert to the ZB scheme but had to nix that plan when Brown left and after the signed Matt, they figured out that he wasn't gonna be able to play in the scheme either.

Long story short, my opinion is based on alot of things...Stats, play and assumption of what I believe the staff wants to do. My assumption is that they still want to be a one cut team behind a Zone Blocking OL and that they will try to find a C this offseason to do just that.

In no way does that slight Matt in what he did for us while he was on the team. As I've said repeatedly, I loved it when he was on the team but the last 2 years he was here something wasn't right.

My guess, alot of that had to do with the scheme, but alot of it also had to do with age and past injuries.

It was the scheme.

Told you that in 2006, 2007 & 2008. Your notebook of notes on the O-line & all the players Childress threw in & out of there & shuffled around, should tell you that. I don't think he had qualified people in there teaching the scheme & Childress version of it, nor do I think it was the scheme we should have been running due to the difficulty & length of time it takes to put it in place.

Matt & Hutch tried to make the best out of a bad situation.

Singer, just walk away from this one... We beat Marrdro on this topic when he said that the Line sucking wasn't the line's fault.

And, after Favre, the only player he loves to bash more is Matt Birk.

He was dead wrong on Favre, it's not a big stretch for him to be wrong on Birk.

Getting him to ADMIT it, however....requires a beer bet (ala Tarvaris Jackson).

Caine

Marrdro
12-29-2010, 03:16 PM
Singer, just walk away from this one... We beat Marrdro on this topic when he said that the Line sucking wasn't the line's fault.

And, after Favre, the only player he loves to bash more is Matt Birk.

He was dead wrong on Favre, it's not a big stretch for him to be wrong on Birk.

Getting him to ADMIT it, however....requires a beer bet (ala Tarvaris Jackson).

Caine
OL played fine last night. I wonder why?

Hmmmmmmmm,..... Anyone want to recant any of thier statements?

Freya
12-29-2010, 04:48 PM
Singer, just walk away from this one... We beat Marrdro on this topic when he said that the Line sucking wasn't the line's fault.

And, after Favre, the only player he loves to bash more is Matt Birk.

He was dead wrong on Favre, it's not a big stretch for him to be wrong on Birk.

Getting him to ADMIT it, however....requires a beer bet (ala Tarvaris Jackson).

Caine
OL played fine last night. I wonder why?

Hmmmmmmmm,..... Anyone want to recant any of thier statements?

Just out of curiosity.........who do you think was responsible for Vick getting hit so much last night?

Marrdro
12-29-2010, 04:57 PM
Singer, just walk away from this one... We beat Marrdro on this topic when he said that the Line sucking wasn't the line's fault.

And, after Favre, the only player he loves to bash more is Matt Birk.

He was dead wrong on Favre, it's not a big stretch for him to be wrong on Birk.

Getting him to ADMIT it, however....requires a beer bet (ala Tarvaris Jackson).

Caine
OL played fine last night. I wonder why?

Hmmmmmmmm,..... Anyone want to recant any of thier statements?

Just out of curiosity.........who do you think was responsible for Vick getting hit so much last night?
I don't think you can pick out one person and give him credit as that was the first time all year we actually saw a full team effort on the defensive side of the ball. (key note: Except for all the dropped INT's. Small blemish on a stellar gameplan).

Having said that, I think you have to first look to coach Pagac.

Finally we saw a D-coord for the Vikings bringing the heat instead of us just sitting back and watching other teams do it to us.

The way they had the DE's crashing in tight, shortening the edges, followed by a LB and then Whinny (He wasn't the only DB doing it) was a stroke of genius.

Second, you gotta give credit to the DL as they were mostly acting as decoys, as they drew the OLmen/TE/RB's into the middle, allowing the DB's a shorter route to the QB.

Third. I think you gotta give credit to the DB's, both rushing as well as providing coverage on the backend.

On a side note, I think you've probably noticed that since Pagac took over as the D-coord, Whinny hasn't played outside much but has been used almost exclusively as the nickle/inside guy. I think that suites not only his talent level, but also matches what he would rather do.

I would be very interested to see if the staff has any thoughts of keeping him on for atleast another season and continuing to use him in this fashion.

Not only his he good at it, but he has seemed to stay a bit healthier this year.

Your thoughts......

Freya
12-29-2010, 05:08 PM
Singer, just walk away from this one... We beat Marrdro on this topic when he said that the Line sucking wasn't the line's fault.

And, after Favre, the only player he loves to bash more is Matt Birk.

He was dead wrong on Favre, it's not a big stretch for him to be wrong on Birk.

Getting him to ADMIT it, however....requires a beer bet (ala Tarvaris Jackson).

Caine
OL played fine last night. I wonder why?

Hmmmmmmmm,..... Anyone want to recant any of thier statements?

Just out of curiosity.........who do you think was responsible for Vick getting hit so much last night?
I don't think you can pick out one person and give him credit as that was the first time all year we actually saw a full team effort on the defensive side of the ball. (key note: Except for all the dropped INT's. Small blemish on a stellar gameplan).

Having said that, I think you have to first look to coach Pagac.

Finally we saw a D-coord for the Vikings bringing the heat instead of us just sitting back and watching other teams do it to us.

The way they had the DE's crashing in tight, shortening the edges, followed by a LB and then Whinny (He wasn't the only DB doing it) was a stroke of genius.

Second, you gotta give credit to the DL as they were mostly acting as decoys, as they drew the OLmen/TE/RB's into the middle, allowing the DB's a shorter route to the QB.

Third. I think you gotta give credit to the DB's, both rushing as well as providing coverage on the backend.

On a side note, I think you've probably noticed that since Pagac took over as the D-coord, Whinny hasn't played outside much but has been used almost exclusively as the nickle/inside guy. I think that suites not only his talent level, but also matches what he would rather do.

I would be very interested to see if the staff has any thoughts of keeping him on for atleast another season and continuing to use him in this fashion.

Not only his he good at it, but he has seemed to stay a bit healthier this year.

Your thoughts......

I think that our defense came to play last night. For the first time all year. The blitz was the big difference, imo.
Winfield ruled. However, I would say that he has been playing nickle mostly for at least a year, and not just the past few games. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is what I've been seeing.
More to the point...........I think the Eagle's Oline sucked and Vick is overrated.

Marrdro
12-29-2010, 05:11 PM
Singer, just walk away from this one... We beat Marrdro on this topic when he said that the Line sucking wasn't the line's fault.

And, after Favre, the only player he loves to bash more is Matt Birk.

He was dead wrong on Favre, it's not a big stretch for him to be wrong on Birk.

Getting him to ADMIT it, however....requires a beer bet (ala Tarvaris Jackson).

Caine
OL played fine last night. I wonder why?

Hmmmmmmmm,..... Anyone want to recant any of thier statements?

Just out of curiosity.........who do you think was responsible for Vick getting hit so much last night?
I don't think you can pick out one person and give him credit as that was the first time all year we actually saw a full team effort on the defensive side of the ball. (key note: Except for all the dropped INT's. Small blemish on a stellar gameplan).

Having said that, I think you have to first look to coach Pagac.

Finally we saw a D-coord for the Vikings bringing the heat instead of us just sitting back and watching other teams do it to us.

The way they had the DE's crashing in tight, shortening the edges, followed by a LB and then Whinny (He wasn't the only DB doing it) was a stroke of genius.

Second, you gotta give credit to the DL as they were mostly acting as decoys, as they drew the OLmen/TE/RB's into the middle, allowing the DB's a shorter route to the QB.

Third. I think you gotta give credit to the DB's, both rushing as well as providing coverage on the backend.

On a side note, I think you've probably noticed that since Pagac took over as the D-coord, Whinny hasn't played outside much but has been used almost exclusively as the nickle/inside guy. I think that suites not only his talent level, but also matches what he would rather do.

I would be very interested to see if the staff has any thoughts of keeping him on for atleast another season and continuing to use him in this fashion.

Not only his he good at it, but he has seemed to stay a bit healthier this year.

Your thoughts......

I think that our defense came to play last night. For the first time all year. The blitz was the big difference, imo.

Not sure if you get NFLN and had a chance to see Leslie's comments, but he gave huge props to coach Pagac for not only exposing a weakness but being able to go to it repeatedly (with different looks) which hampered the IGGLES OL and QB.


Winfield ruled. However, I would say that he has been playing nickle mostly for at least a year, and not just the past few games. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is what I've been seeing.

Your probably correct and I've been missing it.


More to the point...........I think the Eagle's Oline sucked and Vick is overrated.
LOL, you crack me up. Readers digest version and accurate all at the same time.

I think its time I find another special spreadsheet for you. :laugh:

Freya
12-29-2010, 05:25 PM
Singer, just walk away from this one... We beat Marrdro on this topic when he said that the Line sucking wasn't the line's fault.

And, after Favre, the only player he loves to bash more is Matt Birk.

He was dead wrong on Favre, it's not a big stretch for him to be wrong on Birk.

Getting him to ADMIT it, however....requires a beer bet (ala Tarvaris Jackson).

Caine
OL played fine last night. I wonder why?

Hmmmmmmmm,..... Anyone want to recant any of thier statements?

Just out of curiosity.........who do you think was responsible for Vick getting hit so much last night?
I don't think you can pick out one person and give him credit as that was the first time all year we actually saw a full team effort on the defensive side of the ball. (key note: Except for all the dropped INT's. Small blemish on a stellar gameplan).

Having said that, I think you have to first look to coach Pagac.

Finally we saw a D-coord for the Vikings bringing the heat instead of us just sitting back and watching other teams do it to us.

The way they had the DE's crashing in tight, shortening the edges, followed by a LB and then Whinny (He wasn't the only DB doing it) was a stroke of genius.

Second, you gotta give credit to the DL as they were mostly acting as decoys, as they drew the OLmen/TE/RB's into the middle, allowing the DB's a shorter route to the QB.

Third. I think you gotta give credit to the DB's, both rushing as well as providing coverage on the backend.

On a side note, I think you've probably noticed that since Pagac took over as the D-coord, Whinny hasn't played outside much but has been used almost exclusively as the nickle/inside guy. I think that suites not only his talent level, but also matches what he would rather do.

I would be very interested to see if the staff has any thoughts of keeping him on for atleast another season and continuing to use him in this fashion.

Not only his he good at it, but he has seemed to stay a bit healthier this year.

Your thoughts......

I think that our defense came to play last night. For the first time all year. The blitz was the big difference, imo.

Not sure if you get NFLN and had a chance to see Leslie's comments, but he gave huge props to coach Pagac for not only exposing a weakness but being able to go to it repeatedly (with different looks) which hampered the IGGLES OL and QB.


Winfield ruled. However, I would say that he has been playing nickle mostly for at least a year, and not just the past few games. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is what I've been seeing.

Your probably correct and I've been missing it.


More to the point...........I think the Eagle's Oline sucked and Vick is overrated.
LOL, you crack me up. Readers digest version and accurate all at the same time.

I think its time I find another special spreadsheet for you. :laugh:

Oh oh.........um, is that a good thing?:blink:

Marrdro
12-29-2010, 05:33 PM
Singer, just walk away from this one... We beat Marrdro on this topic when he said that the Line sucking wasn't the line's fault.

And, after Favre, the only player he loves to bash more is Matt Birk.

He was dead wrong on Favre, it's not a big stretch for him to be wrong on Birk.

Getting him to ADMIT it, however....requires a beer bet (ala Tarvaris Jackson).

Caine
OL played fine last night. I wonder why?

Hmmmmmmmm,..... Anyone want to recant any of thier statements?

Just out of curiosity.........who do you think was responsible for Vick getting hit so much last night?
I don't think you can pick out one person and give him credit as that was the first time all year we actually saw a full team effort on the defensive side of the ball. (key note: Except for all the dropped INT's. Small blemish on a stellar gameplan).

Having said that, I think you have to first look to coach Pagac.

Finally we saw a D-coord for the Vikings bringing the heat instead of us just sitting back and watching other teams do it to us.

The way they had the DE's crashing in tight, shortening the edges, followed by a LB and then Whinny (He wasn't the only DB doing it) was a stroke of genius.

Second, you gotta give credit to the DL as they were mostly acting as decoys, as they drew the OLmen/TE/RB's into the middle, allowing the DB's a shorter route to the QB.

Third. I think you gotta give credit to the DB's, both rushing as well as providing coverage on the backend.

On a side note, I think you've probably noticed that since Pagac took over as the D-coord, Whinny hasn't played outside much but has been used almost exclusively as the nickle/inside guy. I think that suites not only his talent level, but also matches what he would rather do.

I would be very interested to see if the staff has any thoughts of keeping him on for atleast another season and continuing to use him in this fashion.

Not only his he good at it, but he has seemed to stay a bit healthier this year.

Your thoughts......

I think that our defense came to play last night. For the first time all year. The blitz was the big difference, imo.

Not sure if you get NFLN and had a chance to see Leslie's comments, but he gave huge props to coach Pagac for not only exposing a weakness but being able to go to it repeatedly (with different looks) which hampered the IGGLES OL and QB.


Winfield ruled. However, I would say that he has been playing nickle mostly for at least a year, and not just the past few games. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is what I've been seeing.

Your probably correct and I've been missing it.


More to the point...........I think the Eagle's Oline sucked and Vick is overrated.
LOL, you crack me up. Readers digest version and accurate all at the same time.

I think its time I find another special spreadsheet for you. :laugh:

Oh oh.........um, is that a good thing?:blink:
Of course. There is only one bad spreadsheet and that has something to do with fans of a aging has been QB.

I'm sure if you know your on that or not. :P

Minniman
01-03-2011, 01:21 AM
McKinnie was el Toro again today. He has now had a chance to fail rookie Joe Webb and 20 year veteran Brett Favre in the same season.

DiehardVikesFan
01-03-2011, 08:58 AM
McKinnie was el Toro again today. He has now had a chance to fail rookie Joe Webb and 20 year veteran Brett Favre in the same season.

You'd think a 340 pound tackle could anchor against the bull rush.

Marrdro
01-03-2011, 02:06 PM
McKinnie was el Toro again today. He has now had a chance to fail rookie Joe Webb and 20 year veteran Brett Favre in the same season.

You'd think a 340 pound tackle could anchor against the bull rush.
Judging by the early mocks, the best LT's will be gone when we draft.

I wonder if Load can move to LT?

tarkenton10
01-03-2011, 03:15 PM
Caine said:


Without seeing the specific plays, I can't give you a VALID argument for the play. What were the pre-snap reads? What personell were on the field? What was the location, down, and distance?

He knows that.

He's just blowing smoke.

Marrdro's been defending the OL and blaming Favre all season.

Now he starts a thread to promote the myth that he was right.

Ho-hum and yawn.

The OL is crap. They are the Achilles heel of this team and we went down because of them.
We've made it a whole day, with some good discussions. Lets not bring in the whole Noodle shit again.

And I'm not defending the OL. I have repeatedly said, and provided the stats, that they are avergage at best.

My point in all of this is that it isn't just the OL when it comes to pass protection. Only the lamest of lame can look at whats going on and say something like our T's suck against speedier pass rushers and not take into account the blocking schemes that the other teams use to counter it without asking the question why do we not do the same thing.

Again, pass protection is a mix of two groups....The OL and the recievers and backs. Its pretty silly to try to blame one and not look at the other, unless of course, you don't understand that aspect of the game.

If you don't. Thats OK. Everyone can learn something at one point in time and shouldn't have to resort to calling people names cause they are lacking in that knowledge area.

I have to agree with you my friend. Look how some teams neutralize Alan. They chip him with a TE or RB and keep the OL leveraged inside. Why can't we do that with our guys. But looking at our OL play we need to draft some good ones this year. I thought Degeare played pretty good for a rookie though. But so did Loadholdt last year, now he is so fat he can't bend over and just grabs his man.

Minniman
01-03-2011, 06:46 PM
Caine said:


Without seeing the specific plays, I can't give you a VALID argument for the play. What were the pre-snap reads? What personell were on the field? What was the location, down, and distance?

He knows that.

He's just blowing smoke.

Marrdro's been defending the OL and blaming Favre all season.

Now he starts a thread to promote the myth that he was right.

Ho-hum and yawn.

The OL is crap. They are the Achilles heel of this team and we went down because of them.
We've made it a whole day, with some good discussions. Lets not bring in the whole Noodle shit again.

And I'm not defending the OL. I have repeatedly said, and provided the stats, that they are avergage at best.

My point in all of this is that it isn't just the OL when it comes to pass protection. Only the lamest of lame can look at whats going on and say something like our T's suck against speedier pass rushers and not take into account the blocking schemes that the other teams use to counter it without asking the question why do we not do the same thing.

Again, pass protection is a mix of two groups....The OL and the recievers and backs. Its pretty silly to try to blame one and not look at the other, unless of course, you don't understand that aspect of the game.

If you don't. Thats OK. Everyone can learn something at one point in time and shouldn't have to resort to calling people names cause they are lacking in that knowledge area.

I have to agree with you my friend. Look how some teams neutralize Alan. They chip him with a TE or RB and keep the OL leveraged inside. Why can't we do that with our guys. But looking at our OL play we need to draft some good ones this year. I thought Degeare played pretty good for a rookie though. But so did Loadholdt last year, now he is so fat he can't bend over and just grabs his man.
Why the Vikings allow McKinnie and Loadholt to come into camp so overweight is beyond comprehension. They are big guys, but the NFL needs big and powerful with good footwork not big, fat, and slow.

McKinnie had single outside protection on a blitz by the Lions, and the defender just went around him without a touch. McKinnie blocked no one on the play. I would like to know the line call and what McKinnie was supposed to do, because everyone else on the line took the correct man.

For the draft position the Vikings took McKinnie and how much they have paid him, he is a barely serviceable bust.