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Marrdro
09-29-2010, 10:17 AM
Vikes Look At Two Kickers & Two Linemen (http://www.vikingsgab.com/2010/09/28/vikes-look-at-two-kickers-two-linemen/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+VikingsGab+%28Vikings+Gab%29)

AngloVike
09-29-2010, 10:24 AM
Strib article relating (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/103967014.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiU9PmP:QiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU)

Always good to see that they're looking out for upgrading depth or even starters. Wonder if there is concern regarding Longwells leg getting tired as the season goes on?

Marrdro
09-29-2010, 10:42 AM
AngloVike wrote:

Strib article relating (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/103967014.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiU9PmP:QiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU)

Always good to see that they're looking out for upgrading depth or even starters. Wonder if there is concern regarding Longwells leg getting tired as the season goes on?
Based on a couple of articles (in the Rhys Lloyd thread) I think thier intention was to bring him back when our injury issues stabilized.

Not sure if it had anything to do with Shortwells leg wearing out, but that more along the lines of "Touchbacks", especially in the playoffs.

On a side note, Ole Shortwell has got props from me the last two weeks for getting it to the 1/Goal Line with a reasonable amount of hang time. Teams are still getting out close to the 30, but the big ones aren't happening.

Infidel
09-29-2010, 11:03 AM
The offensive linemen were tackles Scott Kooistra (North Carolina State) and guard Donald Thomas (Connecticut). Kooistra, a seventh-round selection by the Bengals in 2003, also has spent time with the Browns. Thomas was a sixth-round pick of the Dolphins in 2008.

Well, THANK GAWD!!!

All those cards and letters I've been writing must be having an impact at last!!

(I think using crayon helps a lot. A little flair and color never hurt when trying to get the attention of morons.)

:laugh:

i_bleed_purple
09-29-2010, 11:29 AM
Marrdro wrote:

AngloVike wrote:

Strib article relating (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/103967014.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiU9PmP:QiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU)

Always good to see that they're looking out for upgrading depth or even starters. Wonder if there is concern regarding Longwells leg getting tired as the season goes on?
Based on a couple of articles (in the Rhys Lloyd thread) I think thier intention was to bring him back when our injury issues stabilized.

Not sure if it had anything to do with Shortwells leg wearing out, but that more along the lines of "Touchbacks", especially in the playoffs.

On a side note, Ole Shortwell has got props from me the last two weeks for getting it to the 1/Goal Line with a reasonable amount of hang time. Teams are still getting out close to the 30, but the big ones aren't happening.

Here's the numbers, just so they're out there. Over the same amount of games.

All preseason:

vs. rams

Kick Ret. Start.
72 26 24
71 27 26
72 36 39 (kicked from 25 yard line)

Week 2: He had an onside kick, which I'm not including in these stats, as it would skew the averages greatly.

vs. Seattle
71 26 25
65 23 28
72 20 22
66 5 14 (line drive kick bounced, but worked)
66 22 26


vs. denver
76 24 18
77 TB 20
75 TB 20
74 26 22
72 50 48
67 18 21


Average:
dist: ret: starting position.
71.14 21.64 25.21


Now, Longwell (Regular Season):

dis. ret. start:
week 1:
72 25 23
63 25 32
64 26 20

Week 2:
68 18 20
60 19 29
73 TB 20

Week 3:
62 26 34
70 28 28
70 29 29
71 24 23
70 35 35

averages:
dist. ret. start.
67.54 23.18 26.63


Lloyd:
dist: ret: starting position.
71.14 21.64 25.21
Longwell:
dist. ret. start.
67.54 23.18 26.63


TB pct.
Lloyd: 14%
Longwell: 9%

Medians: (with such a small sample size, one or two kicks that are very diferent from the others can skew data)
Lloyd:
Dis. ret. start.
72 23.5 23
Longwell
dis. ret. start.
70 25 28*

*interesting for the Median of Longwells starting positions.
20 20 20 23 23 28 29 29 32 34 35
Everything up to the median was very good, then there was a slew of bad starting spots, but it is what it is.

Yes, the numbers say Lloyd is a better kickoff guy. But marginally at best. He had only one good game where he consistently hit it deep. the rest were very mediocre.

Longwell had a great week 1 and 2, but the stats would show week 3, although he had long kicks, something happened. I'd have to look back and see if thats the KO coverage unit, or the kicks causing that. I'd be inclined to think the return team is doing a good job of blocking our intial coverage wave.

However, is a 1.42 yard difference in average starting position (yes, even including touchbacks) really worth having a "Specialist" just to kickoff?

Marrdro
09-29-2010, 11:40 AM
i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

AngloVike wrote:

Strib article relating (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/103967014.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiU9PmP:QiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU)

Always good to see that they're looking out for upgrading depth or even starters. Wonder if there is concern regarding Longwells leg getting tired as the season goes on?
Based on a couple of articles (in the Rhys Lloyd thread) I think thier intention was to bring him back when our injury issues stabilized.

Not sure if it had anything to do with Shortwells leg wearing out, but that more along the lines of "Touchbacks", especially in the playoffs.

On a side note, Ole Shortwell has got props from me the last two weeks for getting it to the 1/Goal Line with a reasonable amount of hang time. Teams are still getting out close to the 30, but the big ones aren't happening.

Here's the numbers, just so they're out there. Over the same amount of games.

All preseason:

vs. rams

Kick Ret. Start.
72 26 24
71 27 26
72 36 39 (kicked from 25 yard line)

Week 2: He had an onside kick, which I'm not including in these stats, as it would skew the averages greatly.

vs. Seattle
71 26 25
65 23 28
72 20 22
66 5 14 (line drive kick bounced, but worked)
66 22 26


vs. denver
76 24 18
77 TB 20
75 TB 20
74 26 22
72 50 48
67 18 21


Average:
dist: ret: starting position.
71.14 21.64 25.21


Now, Longwell (Regular Season):

dis. ret. start:
week 1:
72 25 23
63 25 32
64 26 20

Week 2:
68 18 20
60 19 29
73 TB 20

Week 3:
62 26 34
70 28 28
70 29 29
71 24 23
70 35 35

averages:
dist. ret. start.
67.54 23.18 26.63


Lloyd:
dist: ret: starting position.
71.14 21.64 25.21
Longwell:
dist. ret. start.
67.54 23.18 26.63


TB pct.
Lloyd: 14%
Longwell: 9%

Medians: (with such a small sample size, one or two kicks that are very diferent from the others can skew data)
Lloyd:
Dis. ret. start.
72 23.5 23
Longwell
dis. ret. start.
70 25 28*

*interesting for the Median of Longwells starting positions.
20 20 20 23 23 28 29 29 32 34 35
Everything up to the median was very good, then there was a slew of bad starting spots, but it is what it is.

Yes, the numbers say Lloyd is a better kickoff guy. But marginally at best. He had only one good game where he consistently hit it deep. the rest were very mediocre.

Longwell had a great week 1 and 2, but the stats would show week 3, although he had long kicks, something happened. I'd have to look back and see if thats the KO coverage unit, or the kicks causing that. I'd be inclined to think the return team is doing a good job of blocking our intial coverage wave.

However, is a 1.42 yard difference in average starting position (yes, even including touchbacks) really worth having a "Specialist" just to kickoff?
I can think of atleast one game were I wish we would have had a cat who could kick it into the Endzone........ ;)

On a side note, I am still not convinced he was trying to kick it deep in pre-season. Again, how do you look at your coverage teams if they don't have to cover anyone?

i_bleed_purple
09-29-2010, 11:45 AM
Marrdro wrote:


On a side note, I am still not convinced he was trying to kick it deep in pre-season. Again, how do you look at your coverage teams if they don't have to cover anyone?

You're probably the only one.

He publicly apologized for crappy kicking performances. You don't do that if you're just out there trying to hit it 60 yards.

And why would a guy, who said "He hopes there's room on the roster" for him, not give it 100% during preseason (you know, the only time he'll get a chance).


As well, I went to both the Seattle and the Broncos game. In particular, I paid close attention to him in warmups. He wasn't even hitting it deep in the endzone then. Now yes, maybe he might not be giving 100% in warmups. But then again, how come when a kicker comes to hit a long fieldgoal, the announcers are always saying something like "He was hitting them from 59 during warmups before the game, ....". You don't hit 59 yard field goals without trying.

Marrdro
09-29-2010, 11:50 AM
i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:


On a side note, I am still not convinced he was trying to kick it deep in pre-season. Again, how do you look at your coverage teams if they don't have to cover anyone?

You're probably the only one.

He publicly apologized for crappy kicking performances. You don't do that if you're just out there trying to hit it 60 yards.

And why would a guy, who said "He hopes there's room on the roster" for him, not give it 100% during preseason (you know, the only time he'll get a chance).


As well, I went to both the Seattle and the Broncos game. In particular, I paid close attention to him in warmups. He wasn't even hitting it deep in the endzone then. Now yes, maybe he might not be giving 100% in warmups. But then again, how come when a kicker comes to hit a long fieldgoal, the announcers are always saying something like "He was hitting them from 59 during warmups before the game, ....". You don't hit 59 yard field goals without trying.
I kindof attributed those comments to him toeing the party line in the hopes that he would be brought back.

The onus should have been on the staff to point out that they were working on coverage stuff and not kicking it out of the endzone.

As to the FG comment. Who knows. Maybe it takes more out of your leg to kick one over the other.

Truth of the matter is, he can kick it deep. His record prior to becoming a Vike is evidence of it. Unless his leg just went to shit, we know he could kick before he got here.

i_bleed_purple
09-29-2010, 11:52 AM
Marrdro wrote:



As to the FG comment. Who knows. Maybe it takes more out of your leg to kick one over the other.
It does. FG's you have two steps to get enough power to boot the ball 60 yards, while kickoffs you can start at full sprint if you really want to.
[/quote]
Truth of the matter is, he can kick it deep. His record prior to becoming a Vike is evidence of it. Unless his leg just went to shit, we know he could kick before he got here.[/quote]

Hmm... that makes sense because its not like players ever just stop performing at a high(ish) level.

Marrdro
09-29-2010, 12:07 PM
i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:



As to the FG comment. Who knows. Maybe it takes more out of your leg to kick one over the other.
It does. FG's you have two steps to get enough power to boot the ball 60 yards, while kickoffs you can start at full sprint if you really want to.

Truth of the matter is, he can kick it deep. His record prior to becoming a Vike is evidence of it. Unless his leg just went to shit, we know he could kick before he got here.[/quote]

Hmm... that makes sense because its not like players ever just stop performing at a high(ish) level.[/quote]

So far, he's been active for thier last 2 games and has had only 2 chances to kick and both have been Touchbacks.



4th and 4 at TB 37 (Shotgun) M.Moore pass short middle to S.Smith for 37 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 7 6
J.Kasay extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Jansen, Holder-J.Baker. 7 7
.Lloyd kicks 70 yards from CAR 30 to end zone, Touchback

Tampa Carolina box scoreFrom the Carolina Tampa box score (http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=300919029&period=0)



2nd and 1 at CIN 1 J.Stewart up the middle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN. 10 6
J.Kasay extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Jansen, Holder-J.Baker. 10 7
R.Lloyd kicks 70 yards from CAR 30 to end zone, Touchback.
From the Bengals/Carolina box score
Bengals - Carolina Box Score (http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=300926029&period=0)

Obviously he can still do it.

i_bleed_purple
09-29-2010, 12:27 PM
Marrdro wrote:
i_bleed_purple wrote:
Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:



As to the FG comment. Who knows. Maybe it takes more out of your leg to kick one over the other.
It does. FG's you have two steps to get enough power to boot the ball 60 yards, while kickoffs you can start at full sprint if you really want to.

Truth of the matter is, he can kick it deep. His record prior to becoming a Vike is evidence of it. Unless his leg just went to shit, we know he could kick before he got here.

Hmm... that makes sense because its not like players ever just stop performing at a high(ish) level.

So far, he's been active for thier last 2 games and has had only 2 chances to kick and both have been Touchbacks.



4th and 4 at TB 37 (Shotgun) M.Moore pass short middle to S.Smith for 37 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 7 6
J.Kasay extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Jansen, Holder-J.Baker. 7 7
.Lloyd kicks 70 yards from CAR 30 to end zone, Touchback

Tampa Carolina box scoreFrom the Carolina Tampa box score (http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=300919029&period=0)



2nd and 1 at CIN 1 J.Stewart up the middle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN. 10 6
J.Kasay extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Jansen, Holder-J.Baker. 10 7
R.Lloyd kicks 70 yards from CAR 30 to end zone, Touchback.
From the Bengals/Carolina box score
Bengals - Carolina Box Score (http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=300926029&period=0)

Obviously he can still do it.

You're kidding me right?

You reference two kicks which are touchbacks.

Both of those kicks are 70 yard kicks, taken at the goalline. Why they weren't returned is beyond me.

Longwell can kick it 70 yards.

That's not by any means a big boot.

He should thank that returnman for the touchbacks.

Marrdro
09-29-2010, 12:36 PM
i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:
i_bleed_purple wrote:
Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:



As to the FG comment. Who knows. Maybe it takes more out of your leg to kick one over the other.
It does. FG's you have two steps to get enough power to boot the ball 60 yards, while kickoffs you can start at full sprint if you really want to.

Truth of the matter is, he can kick it deep. His record prior to becoming a Vike is evidence of it. Unless his leg just went to shit, we know he could kick before he got here.

Hmm... that makes sense because its not like players ever just stop performing at a high(ish) level.

So far, he's been active for thier last 2 games and has had only 2 chances to kick and both have been Touchbacks.



4th and 4 at TB 37 (Shotgun) M.Moore pass short middle to S.Smith for 37 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 7 6
J.Kasay extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Jansen, Holder-J.Baker. 7 7
.Lloyd kicks 70 yards from CAR 30 to end zone, Touchback

Tampa Carolina box scoreFrom the Carolina Tampa box score (http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=300919029&period=0)



2nd and 1 at CIN 1 J.Stewart up the middle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN. 10 6
J.Kasay extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Jansen, Holder-J.Baker. 10 7
R.Lloyd kicks 70 yards from CAR 30 to end zone, Touchback.
From the Bengals/Carolina box score
Bengals - Carolina Box Score (http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=300926029&period=0)

Obviously he can still do it.

You're kidding me right?

You reference two kicks which are touchbacks.

Both of those kicks are 70 yard kicks, taken at the goalline. Why they weren't returned is beyond me.

Longwell can kick it 70 yards.

That's not by any means a big boot.

He should thank that returnman for the touchbacks.
Your kidding me right?


Why they weren't returned is beyond me.

Its called "Hang Time". Returns come from kicks that are basically line drives (ala Shortwell).

i_bleed_purple
09-29-2010, 12:39 PM
Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:
i_bleed_purple wrote:
Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:



As to the FG comment. Who knows. Maybe it takes more out of your leg to kick one over the other.
It does. FG's you have two steps to get enough power to boot the ball 60 yards, while kickoffs you can start at full sprint if you really want to.

Truth of the matter is, he can kick it deep. His record prior to becoming a Vike is evidence of it. Unless his leg just went to shit, we know he could kick before he got here.

Hmm... that makes sense because its not like players ever just stop performing at a high(ish) level.

So far, he's been active for thier last 2 games and has had only 2 chances to kick and both have been Touchbacks.



4th and 4 at TB 37 (Shotgun) M.Moore pass short middle to S.Smith for 37 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 7 6
J.Kasay extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Jansen, Holder-J.Baker. 7 7
.Lloyd kicks 70 yards from CAR 30 to end zone, Touchback

Tampa Carolina box scoreFrom the Carolina Tampa box score (http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=300919029&period=0)



2nd and 1 at CIN 1 J.Stewart up the middle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN. 10 6
J.Kasay extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Jansen, Holder-J.Baker. 10 7
R.Lloyd kicks 70 yards from CAR 30 to end zone, Touchback.
From the Bengals/Carolina box score
Bengals - Carolina Box Score (http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=300926029&period=0)

Obviously he can still do it.

You're kidding me right?

You reference two kicks which are touchbacks.

Both of those kicks are 70 yard kicks, taken at the goalline. Why they weren't returned is beyond me.

Longwell can kick it 70 yards.

That's not by any means a big boot.

He should thank that returnman for the touchbacks.
Your kidding me right?


Why they weren't returned is beyond me.

Its called "Hang Time". Returns come from kicks that are basically line drives (ala Shortwell).

right... ask any returner who fields a ball at the goalline if he'd return in. probably 95% would say yes.

Now, riddle me this.. he was kicking 70+ kicks for us that were returned. Why on earth would that be? Did Chilly tell him not to put as much hangtime on them?
:dry:

Marrdro
09-29-2010, 12:45 PM
i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:
i_bleed_purple wrote:
Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:



As to the FG comment. Who knows. Maybe it takes more out of your leg to kick one over the other.
It does. FG's you have two steps to get enough power to boot the ball 60 yards, while kickoffs you can start at full sprint if you really want to.

Truth of the matter is, he can kick it deep. His record prior to becoming a Vike is evidence of it. Unless his leg just went to shit, we know he could kick before he got here.

Hmm... that makes sense because its not like players ever just stop performing at a high(ish) level.

So far, he's been active for thier last 2 games and has had only 2 chances to kick and both have been Touchbacks.



4th and 4 at TB 37 (Shotgun) M.Moore pass short middle to S.Smith for 37 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 7 6
J.Kasay extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Jansen, Holder-J.Baker. 7 7
.Lloyd kicks 70 yards from CAR 30 to end zone, Touchback

Tampa Carolina box scoreFrom the Carolina Tampa box score (http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=300919029&period=0)



2nd and 1 at CIN 1 J.Stewart up the middle for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN. 10 6
J.Kasay extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Jansen, Holder-J.Baker. 10 7
R.Lloyd kicks 70 yards from CAR 30 to end zone, Touchback.
From the Bengals/Carolina box score
Bengals - Carolina Box Score (http://espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=300926029&period=0)

Obviously he can still do it.

You're kidding me right?

You reference two kicks which are touchbacks.

Both of those kicks are 70 yard kicks, taken at the goalline. Why they weren't returned is beyond me.

Longwell can kick it 70 yards.

That's not by any means a big boot.

He should thank that returnman for the touchbacks.
Your kidding me right?


Why they weren't returned is beyond me.

Its called "Hang Time". Returns come from kicks that are basically line drives (ala Shortwell).

right... ask any returner who fields a ball at the goalline if he'd return in. probably 95% would say yes.

Now, riddle me this.. he was kicking 70+ kicks for us that were returned. Why on earth would that be? Did Chilly tell him not to put as much hangtime on them?
:dry:
I already did. They were working on coverage schemes, not if he could kick a touchback.

Again, we knew he could when they brought him in. He did it in the last preseason game and he is doing it now.

On a side note, you are completely ignoring the fact that the staff is still looking for someone as we speak. I still say they want to have TBacks later on in the season and Shortwell isn't the cat who is gonna get that done.

If they find someone, they will add him once the roster stuff settles out a bit. Atleast thats my guess.

i_bleed_purple
09-29-2010, 12:56 PM
Yet the facts remain:

They've brought in kickoff specialists the past few years, none have made the team yet.

Lloyd wasn't kicking great for us, and even said so himself.

Funny thing is, If he wasn't "trying" in preseason, you think he would in reguar season right?

Well:

Longwell
Avg.
67.5
Lloyd
Avg.
64.2

What on earth happened. two 70 yard touchbacks, and two other kicks, which led to a 64.2 average.

I'll tell you, the other was a 55 yard shank on th eopening kickoff, the other was only 62 yards, both were opening kickoffs.


Yes, his TB percentage is 50% so far this season, but his terrible kick% is 25%, mediocre kick% is 25%.

I'll take consistency over an 'everything or nothing' kicker.

Marrdro
09-29-2010, 01:01 PM
i_bleed_purple wrote:

Yet the facts remain:

They've brought in kickoff specialists the past few years, none have made the team yet.

Lloyd wasn't kicking great for us, and even said so himself.

Funny thing is, If he wasn't "trying" in preseason, you think he would in reguar season right?

Well:

Longwell
Avg.
67.5
Lloyd
Avg.
64.2

What on earth happened. two 70 yard touchbacks, and two other kicks, which led to a 64.2 average.

I'll tell you, the other was a 55 yard shank on th eopening kickoff, the other was only 62 yards, both were opening kickoffs.


Yes, his TB percentage is 50% so far this season, but his terrible kick% is 25%, mediocre kick% is 25%.

I'll take consistency over an 'everything or nothing' kicker.
It isn't that they haven't made the team. Its that the team couldn't afford to carry the extra ST player.

As to his TB %. Did I miss one or two? Looking at the box score I only saw two from him and both were TB's. That equates to 100% to me.

i_bleed_purple
09-29-2010, 01:07 PM
Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Yet the facts remain:

They've brought in kickoff specialists the past few years, none have made the team yet.

Lloyd wasn't kicking great for us, and even said so himself.

Funny thing is, If he wasn't "trying" in preseason, you think he would in reguar season right?

Well:

Longwell
Avg.
67.5
Lloyd
Avg.
64.2

What on earth happened. two 70 yard touchbacks, and two other kicks, which led to a 64.2 average.

I'll tell you, the other was a 55 yard shank on th eopening kickoff, the other was only 62 yards, both were opening kickoffs.


Yes, his TB percentage is 50% so far this season, but his terrible kick% is 25%, mediocre kick% is 25%.

I'll take consistency over an 'everything or nothing' kicker.
It isn't that they haven't made the team. Its that the team couldn't afford to carry the extra ST player.

As to his TB %. Did I miss one or two? Looking at the box score I only saw two from him and both were TB's. That equates to 100% to me.

he's had four kickoffs with the Panthers this year, two were touchbacks, two were bad to mediocre kicks. He's played two games.

http://www.nfl.com/players/rhyslloyd/gamelogs?id=LLO676464

Marrdro
09-29-2010, 01:12 PM
i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Yet the facts remain:

They've brought in kickoff specialists the past few years, none have made the team yet.

Lloyd wasn't kicking great for us, and even said so himself.

Funny thing is, If he wasn't "trying" in preseason, you think he would in reguar season right?

Well:

Longwell
Avg.
67.5
Lloyd
Avg.
64.2

What on earth happened. two 70 yard touchbacks, and two other kicks, which led to a 64.2 average.

I'll tell you, the other was a 55 yard shank on th eopening kickoff, the other was only 62 yards, both were opening kickoffs.


Yes, his TB percentage is 50% so far this season, but his terrible kick% is 25%, mediocre kick% is 25%.

I'll take consistency over an 'everything or nothing' kicker.
It isn't that they haven't made the team. Its that the team couldn't afford to carry the extra ST player.

As to his TB %. Did I miss one or two? Looking at the box score I only saw two from him and both were TB's. That equates to 100% to me.

he's had four kickoffs with the Panthers this year, two were touchbacks, two were bad to mediocre kicks. He's played two games.

http://www.nfl.com/players/rhyslloyd/gamelogs?id=LLO676464
Thats what I get for using the Disney Channel for my stats. Thanks.

Still, all in all, 2 TB's equal 50% How many does Shortwell have?

Again, I have been pleasantly pleased with the effort so far, but I fear we will see that slip a bit as the year goes on.

The staff, judging by the two visits, probably agrees with me. ;)

i_bleed_purple
09-29-2010, 01:15 PM
Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Yet the facts remain:

They've brought in kickoff specialists the past few years, none have made the team yet.

Lloyd wasn't kicking great for us, and even said so himself.

Funny thing is, If he wasn't "trying" in preseason, you think he would in reguar season right?

Well:

Longwell
Avg.
67.5
Lloyd
Avg.
64.2

What on earth happened. two 70 yard touchbacks, and two other kicks, which led to a 64.2 average.

I'll tell you, the other was a 55 yard shank on th eopening kickoff, the other was only 62 yards, both were opening kickoffs.


Yes, his TB percentage is 50% so far this season, but his terrible kick% is 25%, mediocre kick% is 25%.

I'll take consistency over an 'everything or nothing' kicker.
It isn't that they haven't made the team. Its that the team couldn't afford to carry the extra ST player.

As to his TB %. Did I miss one or two? Looking at the box score I only saw two from him and both were TB's. That equates to 100% to me.

he's had four kickoffs with the Panthers this year, two were touchbacks, two were bad to mediocre kicks. He's played two games.

http://www.nfl.com/players/rhyslloyd/gamelogs?id=LLO676464
Thats what I get for using the Disney Channel for my stats. Thanks.

Still, all in all, 2 TB's equal 50% How many does Shortwell have?

Again, I have been pleasantly pleased with the effort so far, but I fear we will see that slip a bit as the year goes on.

The staff, judging by the two visits, probably agrees with me. ;)

And I guarantee we'll see Lloyd's TB % slip as well.

Marrdro
09-29-2010, 01:21 PM
i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Yet the facts remain:

They've brought in kickoff specialists the past few years, none have made the team yet.

Lloyd wasn't kicking great for us, and even said so himself.

Funny thing is, If he wasn't "trying" in preseason, you think he would in reguar season right?

Well:

Longwell
Avg.
67.5
Lloyd
Avg.
64.2

What on earth happened. two 70 yard touchbacks, and two other kicks, which led to a 64.2 average.

I'll tell you, the other was a 55 yard shank on th eopening kickoff, the other was only 62 yards, both were opening kickoffs.


Yes, his TB percentage is 50% so far this season, but his terrible kick% is 25%, mediocre kick% is 25%.

I'll take consistency over an 'everything or nothing' kicker.
It isn't that they haven't made the team. Its that the team couldn't afford to carry the extra ST player.

As to his TB %. Did I miss one or two? Looking at the box score I only saw two from him and both were TB's. That equates to 100% to me.

he's had four kickoffs with the Panthers this year, two were touchbacks, two were bad to mediocre kicks. He's played two games.

http://www.nfl.com/players/rhyslloyd/gamelogs?id=LLO676464
Thats what I get for using the Disney Channel for my stats. Thanks.

Still, all in all, 2 TB's equal 50% How many does Shortwell have?

Again, I have been pleasantly pleased with the effort so far, but I fear we will see that slip a bit as the year goes on.

The staff, judging by the two visits, probably agrees with me. ;)

And I guarantee we'll see Lloyd's TB % slip as well.
Could be. I need to go look at how many he got last year in the beginning and how many he got towards the end.

2009 (http://www.nfl.com/players/rhyslloyd/gamelogs?id=LLO676464&season=2009)

Again, the staff is still looking my friend. They are still looking. :P

marshallvike
09-29-2010, 02:25 PM
Marrdro wrote:

AngloVike wrote:

Strib article relating (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/103967014.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiU9PmP:QiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU)

Always good to see that they're looking out for upgrading depth or even starters. Wonder if there is concern regarding Longwells leg getting tired as the season goes on?
Based on a couple of articles (in the Rhys Lloyd thread) I think thier intention was to bring him back when our injury issues stabilized.

Not sure if it had anything to do with Shortwells leg wearing out, but that more along the lines of "Touchbacks", especially in the playoffs.

On a side note, Ole Shortwell has got props from me the last two weeks for getting it to the 1/Goal Line with a reasonable amount of hang time. Teams are still getting out close to the 30, but the big ones aren't happening.

Good to see you on the Longwell bandwagon, my friend.Welcome aboard marr, have a beer for the ride.

Minniman
09-29-2010, 07:31 PM
Marrdro wrote:

AngloVike wrote:

Strib article relating (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/103967014.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiU9PmP:QiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU)

Always good to see that they're looking out for upgrading depth or even starters. Wonder if there is concern regarding Longwells leg getting tired as the season goes on?
Based on a couple of articles (in the Rhys Lloyd thread) I think thier intention was to bring him back when our injury issues stabilized.

Not sure if it had anything to do with Shortwells leg wearing out, but that more along the lines of "Touchbacks", especially in the playoffs.

On a side note, Ole Shortwell has got props from me the last two weeks for getting it to the 1/Goal Line with a reasonable amount of hang time. Teams are still getting out close to the 30, but the big ones aren't happening.

I am not seeing the hang-time. I am seeing pretty low line drives that allow the returner to take it out to the 30 yard line consistently.

Marrdro
09-30-2010, 11:06 AM
Minniman wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

AngloVike wrote:

Strib article relating (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/103967014.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiU9PmP:QiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU)

Always good to see that they're looking out for upgrading depth or even starters. Wonder if there is concern regarding Longwells leg getting tired as the season goes on?
Based on a couple of articles (in the Rhys Lloyd thread) I think thier intention was to bring him back when our injury issues stabilized.

Not sure if it had anything to do with Shortwells leg wearing out, but that more along the lines of "Touchbacks", especially in the playoffs.

On a side note, Ole Shortwell has got props from me the last two weeks for getting it to the 1/Goal Line with a reasonable amount of hang time. Teams are still getting out close to the 30, but the big ones aren't happening.

I am not seeing the hang-time. I am seeing pretty low line drives that allow the returner to take it out to the 30 yard line consistently.
You are seeing correctly my friend. Its just not as bad as it used to be.

Kindof a tradeoff I think. Distance vs Hangtime = Something in between.

Marrdro
09-30-2010, 11:10 AM
Kluwe neutralized Bush in the season opener by getting terrific hang time and placing the ball perfectly, which allowed his cover guys to get in position.




"Great hang time," Childress said. "Typically the people that you see lead in that category in terms of returns not coming up the field are teams that can hang the football high and allow their coverage to get down there. Heís doing a tremendous job and heís doing a tremendous job with that directional kicking."



Kluwe has always possessed a strong leg but the coaching staff wants him to focus on his hang time.

"Not just taking it and bombing it," Childress said.




Said special teams coordinator Brian Murphy: "Heís really worked on becoming a hang-time punter. Heís done an excellent job at it. Heís continuing to develop. Thatís what you need. The punter can beat the return team. Hang time is everything. If you give guys a chance to cover with hang time, your unit will be successful and thatís what Chris is allowing us to do. ...

Kluwe begins season on strong note (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/104077483.html)

Could've probably made a new thread or dug up the ole Kluwe threads but I thought this was a good place, especially since we were talking hang time alot in this one.

Long story short, directional kicking, with hang time is the reason our coverage teams are looking better, not that the coverage teams are better.

........snicker....... :P

Marrdro
09-30-2010, 11:12 AM
marshallvike wrote:


Good to see you on the Longwell bandwagon, my friend.Welcome aboard marr, have a beer for the ride.
Don't get me wrong, still don't like the guy and think we could do better without him on KOffs.

Just giving him props when he deserves it. That all.

marshallvike
10-01-2010, 08:54 AM
Marrdro wrote:

marshallvike wrote:


Good to see you on the Longwell bandwagon, my friend.Welcome aboard marr, have a beer for the ride.
Don't get me wrong, still don't like the guy and think we could do better without him on KOffs.

Just giving him props when he deserves it. That all.

Yeah, I caught that. I was just giving you a little ribbing.

Infidel
10-01-2010, 09:01 AM
I wonder why almost all the discussion has been about kickers instead of the two linemen mentioned?

Amazing considering that 2% of the Vikings problems are kicking-related and 90% of the Vikings problems are offensive-line related.

The thread title DOES read "Two Kickers & Two Linemen."

:woohoo:

marshallvike
10-01-2010, 09:24 AM
Infidel wrote:

I wonder why almost all the discussion has been about kickers instead of the two linemen mentioned?

Amazing considering that 2% of the Vikings problems are kicking-related and 90% of the Vikings problems are offensive-line related.

The thread title DOES read "Two Kickers & Two Linemen."

:woohoo:

It's great that we are looking at OLmen, but we are not likely to find anyone worth a crap at this time of year. Kickers on the other hand can be found at anytime.

Infidel
10-01-2010, 09:36 AM
There must be a way.....

There must be one team that's long on O linemen and short on D linemen that could work a deal?

All we need is a large body that can move its feet.

marstc09
10-03-2010, 12:52 PM
Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

AngloVike wrote:

Strib article relating (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/103967014.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiU9PmP:QiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU)

Always good to see that they're looking out for upgrading depth or even starters. Wonder if there is concern regarding Longwells leg getting tired as the season goes on?
Based on a couple of articles (in the Rhys Lloyd thread) I think thier intention was to bring him back when our injury issues stabilized.

Not sure if it had anything to do with Shortwells leg wearing out, but that more along the lines of "Touchbacks", especially in the playoffs.

On a side note, Ole Shortwell has got props from me the last two weeks for getting it to the 1/Goal Line with a reasonable amount of hang time. Teams are still getting out close to the 30, but the big ones aren't happening.

Here's the numbers, just so they're out there. Over the same amount of games.

All preseason:

vs. rams

Kick Ret. Start.
72 26 24
71 27 26
72 36 39 (kicked from 25 yard line)

Week 2: He had an onside kick, which I'm not including in these stats, as it would skew the averages greatly.

vs. Seattle
71 26 25
65 23 28
72 20 22
66 5 14 (line drive kick bounced, but worked)
66 22 26


vs. denver
76 24 18
77 TB 20
75 TB 20
74 26 22
72 50 48
67 18 21


Average:
dist: ret: starting position.
71.14 21.64 25.21


Now, Longwell (Regular Season):

dis. ret. start:
week 1:
72 25 23
63 25 32
64 26 20

Week 2:
68 18 20
60 19 29
73 TB 20

Week 3:
62 26 34
70 28 28
70 29 29
71 24 23
70 35 35

averages:
dist. ret. start.
67.54 23.18 26.63


Lloyd:
dist: ret: starting position.
71.14 21.64 25.21
Longwell:
dist. ret. start.
67.54 23.18 26.63


TB pct.
Lloyd: 14%
Longwell: 9%

Medians: (with such a small sample size, one or two kicks that are very diferent from the others can skew data)
Lloyd:
Dis. ret. start.
72 23.5 23
Longwell
dis. ret. start.
70 25 28*

*interesting for the Median of Longwells starting positions.
20 20 20 23 23 28 29 29 32 34 35
Everything up to the median was very good, then there was a slew of bad starting spots, but it is what it is.

Yes, the numbers say Lloyd is a better kickoff guy. But marginally at best. He had only one good game where he consistently hit it deep. the rest were very mediocre.

Longwell had a great week 1 and 2, but the stats would show week 3, although he had long kicks, something happened. I'd have to look back and see if thats the KO coverage unit, or the kicks causing that. I'd be inclined to think the return team is doing a good job of blocking our intial coverage wave.

However, is a 1.42 yard difference in average starting position (yes, even including touchbacks) really worth having a "Specialist" just to kickoff?
I can think of atleast one game were I wish we would have had a cat who could kick it into the Endzone........ ;)

On a side note, I am still not convinced he was trying to kick it deep in pre-season. Again, how do you look at your coverage teams if they don't have to cover anyone?

Oh please. The numbers don't lie.

marstc09
10-03-2010, 12:56 PM
Marrdro wrote:


Kluwe neutralized Bush in the season opener by getting terrific hang time and placing the ball perfectly, which allowed his cover guys to get in position.




"Great hang time," Childress said. "Typically the people that you see lead in that category in terms of returns not coming up the field are teams that can hang the football high and allow their coverage to get down there. Heís doing a tremendous job and heís doing a tremendous job with that directional kicking."



Kluwe has always possessed a strong leg but the coaching staff wants him to focus on his hang time.

"Not just taking it and bombing it," Childress said.




Said special teams coordinator Brian Murphy: "Heís really worked on becoming a hang-time punter. Heís done an excellent job at it. Heís continuing to develop. Thatís what you need. The punter can beat the return team. Hang time is everything. If you give guys a chance to cover with hang time, your unit will be successful and thatís what Chris is allowing us to do. ...

Kluwe begins season on strong note (http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/blogs/104077483.html)

Could've probably made a new thread or dug up the ole Kluwe threads but I thought this was a good place, especially since we were talking hang time alot in this one.

Long story short, directional kicking, with hang time is the reason our coverage teams are looking better, not that the coverage teams are better.

........snicker....... :P

LMFAO! I love how the coaches are trying to take credit for this. Kluwe has already come out and said the coaching staff made him kick a certain way last year. Plus what does this have to do with kickoffs? Old news IMO.

marstc09
10-03-2010, 12:58 PM
Marrdro wrote:

Vikes Look At Two Kickers & Two Linemen (http://www.vikingsgab.com/2010/09/28/vikes-look-at-two-kickers-two-linemen/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+VikingsGab+%28Vikings+Gab%29)

Snicker

Rhys could not even make the team. These guys are toast.

Snicker

marstc09
10-03-2010, 01:03 PM
i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:


On a side note, I am still not convinced he was trying to kick it deep in pre-season. Again, how do you look at your coverage teams if they don't have to cover anyone?

You're probably the only one.

He publicly apologized for crappy kicking performances. You don't do that if you're just out there trying to hit it 60 yards.

And why would a guy, who said "He hopes there's room on the roster" for him, not give it 100% during preseason (you know, the only time he'll get a chance).


As well, I went to both the Seattle and the Broncos game. In particular, I paid close attention to him in warmups. He wasn't even hitting it deep in the endzone then. Now yes, maybe he might not be giving 100% in warmups. But then again, how come when a kicker comes to hit a long fieldgoal, the announcers are always saying something like "He was hitting them from 59 during warmups before the game, ....". You don't hit 59 yard field goals without trying.

http://www.totaldiatribe.com/img/owned4.jpg

marstc09
10-03-2010, 01:11 PM
Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Marrdro wrote:

i_bleed_purple wrote:

Yet the facts remain:

They've brought in kickoff specialists the past few years, none have made the team yet.

Lloyd wasn't kicking great for us, and even said so himself.

Funny thing is, If he wasn't "trying" in preseason, you think he would in reguar season right?

Well:

Longwell
Avg.
67.5
Lloyd
Avg.
64.2

What on earth happened. two 70 yard touchbacks, and two other kicks, which led to a 64.2 average.

I'll tell you, the other was a 55 yard shank on th eopening kickoff, the other was only 62 yards, both were opening kickoffs.


Yes, his TB percentage is 50% so far this season, but his terrible kick% is 25%, mediocre kick% is 25%.

I'll take consistency over an 'everything or nothing' kicker.
It isn't that they haven't made the team. Its that the team couldn't afford to carry the extra ST player.

As to his TB %. Did I miss one or two? Looking at the box score I only saw two from him and both were TB's. That equates to 100% to me.

he's had four kickoffs with the Panthers this year, two were touchbacks, two were bad to mediocre kicks. He's played two games.

http://www.nfl.com/players/rhyslloyd/gamelogs?id=LLO676464
Thats what I get for using the Disney Channel for my stats. Thanks.

Still, all in all, 2 TB's equal 50% How many does Shortwell have?

Again, I have been pleasantly pleased with the effort so far, but I fear we will see that slip a bit as the year goes on.

The staff, judging by the two visits, probably agrees with me. ;)

And I guarantee we'll see Lloyd's TB % slip as well.
Could be. I need to go look at how many he got last year in the beginning and how many he got towards the end.

2009 (http://www.nfl.com/players/rhyslloyd/gamelogs?id=LLO676464&season=2009)

Again, the staff is still looking my friend. They are still looking. :P

They can look all they want. Obviously they have not found anyone to be better than LONGwell. Obviously. I know I am right because, well, LONGwell is still doing kickoffs. :)